I wasn’t even aware that Natalie Portman clones had anti-photoshopping rights under the UN Conventions.

Ummm..yes you do.  Girls get bosomy and scrawny.  But they tend to be quite young.  ewwww.  I just pointed out the dirty secret of media desires…they all want to be Woodless Allen.

I’d add, you can have bosomy or you can have archery, but you can’t have both. Especially in outfits like that.

This isn’t the first time she’s made fun of the photoshopping - when that chanel ad that she’s featured in mysteriously had a boob (very poorly) photoshopped in, someone asked her about it and she was all “I don’t know where the hell they got that thing, because i’m completely flatchested”.  Kind of made me love her back then.

Keira Knightley is perfect just the way she is.

When Allure first came out, they would show their cover picture next to an untouched original.  They’d even point out all the alterations they did at first.  They don’t do that anymore.

Plus they had a jokey feature every month where they would Photoshop new makeup or hairstyles onto celebrities.  I’m guessing the fashion and makeup companies got pissed at them for revealing their secrets, because they stopped.

They also used to get essays by people like John Updike, Joyce Maynard and Ursula LeGuin, but they gave those up, too.

I miss the old Allure.

Well, they gave her thicker hair and added at least 10 pounds to her skeletal frame as well.

Actually, they only softened her face a little bit and gave her boobs. If you look closely, her waist is even thinner in the photoshopped version.

Indignities such as this got to her:

Uh-huh.  And, to be straight, you’re talking about the digital falsies here and not the stupid fan service outfit?

Not that the stupid fan service outfit didn’t appeal to my prurient tastes, of course.  but I preferred Ms Knightly in “Pride and Prejudice” where they let the actress, well, *act*.

She’s done well out of “Pirates” and good on her for putting her foot down on the Photoshopping issue.  But she’d be better off looking at Naomi Watts and going for meatier roles - I think she’s wasting her talent.  Checking the IMDB shows she’s in a 2010 projected King Lear - that ought to be interesting.  And non-Photoshopped.

you can have scrawny, or you can have bosomy

eh? as a 32J i beg to differ. women’s bodies come in all shapes and sizes

They made her stomach smaller but her cheeks a little bit fuller. Why they made any changes at all, I don’t know. I guess we can’t start thinking any woman looks fine the way she is.

Good for her.  She’s a flaming hottie without the photoshopping.  It’s bloody pathetic that the 21st century ideal of female beauty is a prepubescent boy with near-terminal mastitis.

Hm.  My usual opinion of Keira Knightley is to offer her a sandwich. 

Now I’m going to have to offer her a round of applause, too.

Oh, and Dana, on behalf of all members of the Itty Bitty Titty Committee, can I just say that, yes, there are many of us who would make natural archers, sans mastectomy.  Get over it.  Because, you know, we might get back in training one of these days if you’re not careful…

The large-breast imagery is more maternal than erotic. I feel it is aimed at the infantile.

actually the stories that are told about the Amazons supposedly burning off one boob to aid in their archery are told by MALE writers.  It’s a way to make women who live their lives independent of men seem abnormal and weird - freaks, if you will.  I mean, people still do it now, so I guess we shouldn’t be surprised…

A couple of lines from Rosie O’Donnell’s character in the Ted Demme film “Beautiful Girls” put it pretty well:

Gina: “You want to know what your problem is? MTV, Playboy, and Madison fucking Avenue. Yes. Let me explain something to you, ok? Girls with big tits have big asses. Girls with little tits have little asses. That’s the way it goes. God doesn’t fuck around; he’s a fair guy. He gave the fatties big, beautiful tits and the skinnies little tiny niddlers. It’s not my rule. If you don’t like it, call him.”

and

Gina: “Oh, guys, look what we have here. Look at this, your favorite. Oh, you like that?”
Tommy: “I could go along with that.”
Gina: “Yeah, that’s nice right? Well, it doesn’t exist ok. Look at the hair. The hair is long, it’s flowing, it’s like a river. Well, it’s a fucking weave ok? And the tits, please! I could hang my overcoat on them. Tits by design were invented to be suckled by babies. Yes, they’re purely functional. These are silicon city. And look, my favorite, the shaved pubis. Pubic hair being too unruly and all. Very key. This is a mockery, this is a sham, this is bullshit. Implants, collagen, plastic, capped teeth, the fat sucked out, the hair extended, the nose fixed, the bush shaved… These are not real women, all right? They’re beauty freaks. And they make all us normal women with our wrinkles, our puckered boobs, hi bob, and our cellulite feel somehow inadequate. Well I don’t buy it, all right? But you fucking mooks, if you think that if there’s a chance in hell that you’ll end up with one of these women, you don’t give us real women anything approaching a commitment. It’s pathetic. I don’t know what you think you’re going to do. You’re going to end up eighty-years old, drooling in some nursing home, then you’re going to decide, it’s time to settle down, get married, have kids? What, are you going to find a cheerleader?”

I wasn’t even aware that Natalie Portman clones had anti-photoshopping rights under the UN Conventions.

It’s funny you should mention that since Keira Knightly actually played Queen Amidala’s double in Star Wars Episode 1.  I had always thought they had used digital gimickry to have Portman playing opposite herself, when it turned out it was just clever casting.  Apparently when they both had the full face paint on their own parents had trouble telling them apart. 

Both of them could still stand to eat a hamburger though.

Big breasts, small breasts, whatever.  They should reduce the size of her adenoids so that she doesn’t have to be a perpetual mouth breather anymore.  Seriously.  She needs help.

Both of them could still stand to eat a hamburger though.

Are we really okay with this? I’m pretty sure I heard something about how statements like this are fucked. I may have been hallucinating.

Look at all the statues of active lifestyle greek Goddesses.  They look much more like the first photo than the second.

Yeah, I don’t think so.  Take a look at the various statues of Athena Parthenos (a replica of the statue of Athena that stood in the Parthenon), including the full-size re-creation in Nashville.  Visibly has breasts (even under robes and the aegis) and a set of pipes for arms: no scrawny waif her.  The relief Athena Mourning also has breasts distorting her chiton and non-waifish goddess.

Are we really okay with this? I’m pretty sure I heard something about how statements like this are fucked. I may have been hallucinating.

Huh?  Both Portman and Knightely always struck me as unhealthily underweight, I was trying to find a humorous way of saying that.

Keira Knightley is perfect just the way she is.

except for the acting, of course.

I know some people who are very, very thin by nature. Their metabolisms just get higher the more calories they intake, including insomnia and fever.

But I’m afraid in some untouched photos I’ve seen, Keira doesn’t look like them. Skin tone, amount of bone showing… it’s subtle, but I think she looks more anorexic than high metabolism. More like… Sarah Michelle Gellar when she when on an extreme diet and went from action heroine to waif. It’s more controlled than some starlets’ skid toward skeletal, but I really feel worried for her. Hollywood puts a huge amount of pressure on the women to be as skinny as they possibly can.

When I was her age, I could eat a pizza a day and not gain weight.  I was 6’1” at twelve, and my weight in the following quarter-century has gone from 120 to 210 to yesterday’s 188.  I remember all the idiots who told me to eat more very well, and I want to not thank them for being such assholes that I resisted any valuable implementation of their constructive criticism for many years.  Whether it’s a young man or a young woman, telling them they don’t look right isn’t going to be well received, because we’re damn well aware of how we’d like to look.

But how can we promote healthy bodies, allow for awkward youths to deal with their all-knees-and-elbows phases, and not be assholes who tell people who can’t do much about their bodies to do something about their bodies?  How can we tell people to control themselves when they can’t fully control themselves?  Would we tell Ms. Knightly to eat a sandwich and also tell a large actress to reduce her caloric intake and increase her metabolism with high-intensity personal training?  How can we tell people to respect their bodies but make sure they’re as healthy as we want them to be?  The answer: Clumsily, that’s how.

The large-breast imagery is more maternal than erotic. I feel it is aimed at the infantile.

dc

I think this is an inaccurate take on both male and homosexual female sexuality. Large breasts certainly may suggest maternity, or awaken infantile feelings, in some. However, to me, and others I’ve talked to, the attraction is mostly a sexual one.

Both of them could still stand to eat a hamburger though.

I for one am not okay with the flip “eat a sandwich/eat a hamburger” comments.

Re the “eat a hamburger”, “some people are just naturally skinny”, possible anorexia thing

Yes, there are some people who, in real life, are naturally very thin, and it is rude to imply that their natural size is pathological (or unhealthy, for that matter). 

Having seen actual real life actresses in person quite a bit, and knowing a fair bit about that world, however, I can honestly tell you that while I’m not sure folks like Knightley are clinically anorexic, per se, they could probably stand to eat.  The myth of the skinny actress who eats and eats and eats , just chows down all day on whatever they want—Not True.  Actresses are put on diets, almost as a rule.  Being thin is a part of their careers.  They have trainers and nutritionists and looking that way is a full time job.  I wouldn’t go so far as to say that all actresses are unhealthily anorexic in a true “eating disorder” kinda way, but I would feel comfortable in saying that the vast majority of them could probably stand to eat more carbs.

I’m going to defend Keira Knightley on the skinniness issue. I think think she is naturally thin. She was that skinny back when she was 17 and not yet a star in Bend it Like Beckham.

She was thin in Bend it like Beckham But not as thin as she is now.  I think that Hollywood has had an influence on her.

It’s the slumping posture that gets me.  That and the fact that I notice her posture means I’m turning into my mother.  *grin*

Also jumping in to defend the skinny. Yes, actresses are under a lot of pressure to stay thin, but when a person is naturally slim and working long hours, and eats to live rather than lives to eat (which is what contributes to my own low weight - well, combined with a severe childhood allergy that made me slightly food-phobic, no idea if Keira Knightley also has that issue but it’s a possibility), it’s very hard to put on weight and keep it on. I love food but my appetite is very small. I have been referred to several dieticians who all just say ‘Why are you here? Just eat more.’ Which is like saying to someone who needs to lose weight ‘Just eat less.’ Straightforward? Yes. Easy? No, or no-one would be an unhealthy weight. I am not unhealthy because of my low weight (everything else works) and my sister who has the same physique recently gave birth to an 8lb baby, so nowt wrong there either.
Hmm, that was a bit ranty, sorry.

As far as the anorexia rumors go, she did win a suit against the Daily Mail when they claimed she had anorexia.

The Daily Mail story looks like it can go in the Women Are To Blame For Everything file since it apparently implied that an Australian girl died of anorexia because actresses like Keira Knightley are too thin.

I guess the reason I think “eat a sandwich, please” is OK in reference to people who are ultra-skinny in the entertainment industry is that, by and large, most of them are NOT naturally rail-thin “I can eat anything I want” body types.  They may not be clinically anorexic, but they are on diets as a rule..  Diets that are designed to keep them thin.  They do not eat whatever they want, iand in fact thaey generally don’t eat within the range of how typical people eat. 

I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve stood near an actress at the catering table, “splurging” on the donut I allow myself once every couple weeks, only to hear her comment that she’s envious ever EVER getting to eat a donut.  While standing there with some sad dry pile of mesclun and chicken breast. 

If there are actresses and models who eat whatever, whenever, and never think about their weight, I’ve nevers seen one, and I’ve seen a lot of actresses on their lunch breaks.

Well, at least instead of judging Keira on her breasts people are now judging her based on her weight.  It’s a good thing all of Keira’s personal doctors and confidantes are here to inform us of her unhealthy weight/anorexia.

I hardly think it’s judging someone to be aware of the understanding that Hollywood demands that actresses be outrageously thin, to the point of requiring the vast majority of them to deny themselves a basic human pleasure (that of enjoying one’s food).  If Keira was a friend of mine, I would want to bake her cupcakes for her birthday and watch her actually be allowed to eat them.  That is all. 

I don’t think she’s disordered, unattractive, freakish, whatever.  I’m just aware that the girl is probably not allowed to really eat.

So you know that Keira is not allowed to really eat, and that there is no way she could have a naturally lean figure?  I wish I had access to your information.

But at least we’re discussing her waistline and not her breast size.

People should be discussing her mouth breathing.  Maybe she’s thin because she can’t eat and breathe.  Or maybe her inability to gain weight results from chemical contamination caused by all that junk she puts around her eyes.

I know that:

1.  She is really, really thin.  I know people who are naturally really thin (actually, I’m naturally pretty thin even without watching what I eat so much), and she’s A LOT thinner than that.  I rarely see people out and about on the streets who are as thin as she is.  And I live in Brooklyn, land of the malnourished hipster. 

2.  I have so far never encountered an actress who really ate whatever she wanted to eat without worrying about her weight.  I work in the entertainment industry and am often on set at mealtimes.  You can look down the line and, to a woman, the actresses are NOT eating anything well known for it’s yumminess.  They are eating what they were told to eat by their trainer or their agent or whoever decides these things for them.

3.  The camera puts on weight and bulk.  Just like I’ve never seen an actress eat a twinkie or a french fry,, I’ve also never seen an actress in person who didn’t make me think, “Wow, you are much tinier in person than I ever would have thought…”  Even the ones not known to be particularly teensy.

I’ll defend Opo to this point:  it is true that to be an actress or model, you have to have a very specific, very thin body type, and a lot of people have to work very hard to keep their body at the required size.  Knightley probably doesn’t have to work as hard as most since she does seem to have a naturally thin body type, but she probably does have agents, managers, and directors constantly riding her about her weight and how she has to be careful all the damn time.

Remember that 5’7”, size 6 Kate Winslet was generally agreed to be “fat” when she was at the Academy Awards for Titanic.  She’s in a position to tell all of the people who say that to fuck off, but a lot of actresses aren’t, so they do what they have to so they can get work.

Well, I suppose we’re at least lucky that no one’s come along to say Men Don’t Like Skinny Girls Anyway.

Oh, and to echo Mnemosyne, I would also urge folks to see Margaret Cho’s film I’m The One That I Want”, wherein she talks about how she was pressured to lose weight in order to play herself on TV.  To the point that she ended up in the hospital because she was forced to work out several hours a day without being allowed to eat enough calories to sustain bodily functions.

Just about every honest and open and feminist memoir of an actress or entertainment personality I’ve ever seen has discussed in detail what is required in the area of dieting.  See also the beginning bits of Robin Morgan’s Saturday’s Child.  The “no, really, I’m just naturally skinny!” stuff is fiction.

It may be that I’ve never seen those untouched photos, but I never got that impression. If I stand corrected, perhaps Nied’s comment is less troublesome. But having been very close to someone who gets the kind of societal pressure we so often associate with the higher end of the natural-weight spectrum, I’m uncomfortable with those kinds of comments under any circumstances.

Watch her in Bend it like Beckham (actually just watch it period, it’s an excellent film) where you can not only count her ribs but her vertebra as well.  I don’t doubt that she’s a naturally skinny woman but it certainly seems like that’s augmented by a sub-optimal caloric intake to try and meet an unnatural beauty standard that’s prevalent in Hollywood.

Interesting the turn this thread took.

And all because I wanted to post some stupid Star Wars trivia.

when a person is naturally slim and working long hours

I’ve been on a couple of movie/TV sets before and, trust me, while actors may work long hours, most of those hours are spent sitting around.  It must take an incredible amount of willpower to avoid spending all that free time chowing down.

I love Kate Winslett’s career choices.  She’s taken risky roles others wouldn’t, worked with interesting actors in interesting places, and has been unafraid to play characters that just plain aren’t likeable in some instances.  Plus she takes off her clothes a lot and looks damn good.  I’ve never heard anyone in real life complain about that, though I did hear that that ass James Cameron called her Kate “Weighs-a-lot” during the making of Titanic.

I’m pretty sure she doesn’t go to town at the buffet tables, but she does look healthy in the non-euphemistic sense.  Actresses are indeed under ridiculous pressures, but I’d bet Ms. Winslett has a great agent and, much more importantly, the ability to tell assholes to shut the hell up.

I hardly think it’s judging someone to be aware of the understanding that Hollywood demands that actresses be outrageously thin,

In this line, what Jennifer Connelly did to herself (or was pressured into doing, or both) for the Hulk movie was horrible.  That particular woman is naturally friggin’ curvy; can’t we have just one mainstream cool intellectual brunette actress who bloody looks like a woman?

Ok, this bugs the crap out of me so I’m going to start calling it out.

Can we, please, on a feminist blog, have discussions of a woman being trashed by the fashion industry (or in this case standing up to it) without having the litany of “oh well, she shouldn’t be criticized for A, but look at this other icky stuff, surely I can criticize her for B!” You know what? You’re participating in the “let’s tear down women for random shit” game. It doesn’t make you any cooler that you pick on celebrities; it shouldn’t make you feel better to tear someone else down.

In these cases, staying on topic includes the following: discussions of facing the types of pressures she stood up to, and related cases of success or lack thereof. It does not include: “her fashion choices are still dork”, “her acting still sucks”, “her open mouth bothers me”, “well I think she’s still too skinny”, “her choice of films to act in is still bad”. Fuck. That. Shit. Keira Knightley has some guts and some courage, I think we can all wish there were more like her and that anyone as talented and beautiful as she IS should not be having to waste a single second of her life defending her right to be flat chested or worry what anyone thinks about it.

As the person who seems to have inadvertently gotten this ball rolling I can say that my comments were more motivated out of concern for her well being than anything else (I don’t think I expressed that as well as I could have).  I like  Keira Knightly, I like her acting, I like her choices in roles, and I love what she did in the above article.  She’s given me hours of entertainment and I wish her nothing but a happy healthy and long life.  I just think those last two could be enhanced if she ate a little more.

I, for one, am irritated by the anti-feminist implications of her sharp knees*.

*best internet tradition ever, imho.

Nied, maybe you’re a Jewish mom, or a German relative, or some other stereotypical food-pusher and just can’t help it. But you’ve got to try, because the food-pushing is really obnoxious and harmful. I’m skinny and have food-pushing relatives (including my dad), it was definitely the worst part of my childhood. Just let the woman be herself and encourage her to be herself. Don’t assume you know best.

Err, Nied, sorry if that was a bit harsh. It hit home, as you can tell. I totally get what you were saying re: Keira and the thread, and thanks for saying it.

Nied, maybe you’re a Jewish mom, or a German relative, or some other stereotypical food-pusher and just can’t help it.

Damn, how’d you know?

Just let the woman be herself and encourage her to be herself. Don’t assume you know best.

That’s fair enough as far as it goes, but it also pushes an unhealthy and in most cases unattainable body image on the public at large.  That’s more of a societal problem than some guy wishing an actress would eat more on the internet.

Err, Nied, sorry if that was a bit harsh. It hit home, as you can tell. I totally get what you were saying re: Keira and the thread, and thanks for saying it.

Oops, cross post…

No worries, I figured I wasn’t necessarily the focus there. And seriously how did you know?

Thin women are not all mentally ill, don’t all have eating disorders, are not all starving themselves.

Women born with small bone structure and/or ectomorphic bodies are not “pushing an unhealthy body image on the public at large.” 

It may just be that the high prevalence of obese and overweight people has skewed people’s perception of what is normal.  Now if you’re not 10 lbs overweight, then you’re “rail thin,” and anything not pushing overweight is “anorexic.”

Now if you’re not 10 lbs overweight, then you’re “rail thin,” and anything not pushing overweight is “anorexic.”

Girlfriend could put an eye out with her collarbones.  And that’s on camera.    She is so abnormally thin that I don’t think I’ve seen many people that thin outside of photos from the liberation of the concentration camps.  It is hardly out of bounds for the assumption to be that she is undernourished, as probably the vast majority of hollywood starlets are, anyway.

Though I don’t think anyone in this thread has actually called her anorexic, anyway.

Women born with small bone structure and/or ectomorphic bodies are not “pushing an unhealthy body image on the public at large.”

The women themselves are not, but it’s pretty hard to argue that Hollywood and fashion are not pushing an unhealthy body image given the extremely small range of bodies that they hire and present for public display and the enormous amount of pressure that women working in those industries face to present an unrealistic image.

That does not mean that actresses or models themselves are responsible for that pressure.  They’re just trying to make a living within the restrictions that have been imposed on them.

Yup, Mnemosyne.  This is actually pretty easy to see if you watch movies and TV from other countries.  Especially British television.  I remember the first time I saw Helen Mirren in Prime Suspect, a 55 year old woman , lounging in the bath having a glass of wine with a lover.  Looking like a 55-year-old woman, not like the airbrushed Amazon she’s usually depicted as in the American media.  Middle-aged women   who look middle-aged do not exist in the American media, and certainly not as healthily sexualized protagonists in crime dramas.  Or, for example, Dawn French.  Who has starred in several extremely popular TV shows in the UK, but who wouldn’t be given the time of day at any talent agency in America.  In fact, I’ve always thought it was telling that her more traditionally attractive comedic partner Jennifer Saunders   got famous here in the states, while nobody here has heard of French.