Repost from previous thread:

Apparently, people at the church acted quickly to subdue the shooter.  Who says liberals aren’t courageous?  Oh yeah, we know who says that.

Anyway, if the congregants had had guns, the likely outcome would have been more people dead in the crossfire.

Are there any churches, anywhere, of any political or theological bent, where parishioners are expected to carry concealed weapons during church services?

Because wow.

Wow.  I especially like the comments questioning why the congregants weren’t armed as they sat in their sanctuary.  Would Jesus, the Prince of Peace, bring semiautomatic weapons into the House of God?

I know there are lots of different kinds of Christians out there, but hatefulness like this never ceases to amaze me.  These people make me embarrassed, not of being a Christian, but of being a member of the same species as them.

Typical of the sort of morons who’ve never handled firearms properly. “Lookee m’new gun!” [waving it around]

“How very sad. I wonder if this is a “gun-free” church.”

Go easy on this guy. If the only church you knew was Christian Identity, you’d be shocked at the idea of a “gun-free” church, too.

Are there any churches, anywhere, of any political or theological bent, where parishioners are expected to carry concealed weapons during church services?

I know people who never leave the house without their concealed weapon.  They have to put it in the trunk of their car when they come into the office, for which I am thankful.  I try to keep my interaction with those people to a minimum.  Texas is a weird place.

They’re just losers with wild west fantasies.

In that kind of situation (a crowded, enclosed area) it makes more sense to use disarming techniques the guy rather than start shooting which just adds to the chaos (and probably gets additional bystanders killed in the process).

I wonder if this is a “gun-free” church.”

Evidently there are no Christians on the right these days:

Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

As a gun owner I just gotta say that if you conceal carry in church you’re fucking paranoid.

“I think paranoia is a prerequisite to being a member of the Free Republic. “

True. Still, packing heat in a school or church is like wearing a bike helmet and knee pads—not when you’re riding a bike, but when you’re just walking.

I was always under the impression that church was SUPPOSED to be gun free. What kind of people think they need to bring guns to church. IMO, unfortunate events such as this don’t happen w/enough frequency (thankfully) to warrant carrying guns to church. Maybe I went to some wierd hippy church when I was a kid (I didn’t), but I was taught to leave my guns at home on Sunday.

Auguste, it’s always interesting how the folks who advocate concealed weaponry for self defense assume that the shooter will take out their gun, wave it around in a non-threatening kind of way (finger off the trigger, safety on), then stop to get into shooting position, at which time you can take him out. 

I’ve always wondered if it isn’t because this is how it tends to happen in the movies and on TV.  Somebody takes out a gun, the camera pans to focus on it, there’s a mutual “omigod, he’s got a gun!” moment between the characters in the scene, and then and only then does the gun-brandisher make a serious move towards shooting anyone.

They’re just pissed off that the guy didn’t manage to kill himself the way he planned, so now they have to deal with an embarrassing trial.  It’s hard to continue to pretend there’s no such thing as domestic terrorism when you have white guys walking into churches to try and kill little kids while they’re singing songs from “Annie.”

The right wing nuts are going to accuse him of being secretly Muslim, or of having “Muslim ties”. Count on it—they tried it with Tim McVeigh, the Unabomber, VA Teach shooter, etc.

It’s just boilerplate at this point. Starting a few years ago, the standard conservative response to any shooting is an evidence-free assertion that if everybody had guns, this wouldn’t have happened. In Virginia, we actually had Republican legislators introduce legislation to prohibit schools from banning concealed weapons on campus as a response to the Virginia Tech shooting.

It’s an article of faith right up there with “cutting taxes always raises revenue.” On the plus side, at least it makes them look as cruel and heartless toward suffering people as they actually are.

Well, if anyone remembers last year’s Colorado Springs shootings, a heroic megachurch security guard took out the shooter with her handgun. Of course, this was later proven not to be the case, but the truth doesn’t matter to Freepi.

I thought the rule about not bringing weapons into the church sanctuary was an old, old rule.  It just figures that the average American evangelical doesn’t know this.  There’s a lot about christianity they don’t know.

Ha. I knew they would a) be jealous that the guy who threw himself in front of others and was killed was a UU, and b) seriously argue that more people should bring guns to church.

They want guns to defend themselves.

They keep using that word, I do not think it means what they believe it means.

Snipped from a prophecy/end-times forum, prophecyfellowship.com

Quote: Originally Posted by kd4dqe9 View Post
its things like that that make me carry a 9mm with 45 rounds most of the time.

its not just for myself. IMHO if more folks did carry a handgun and were willing to take a stand, maybe fewer innocent people would get wounded or killed.se

Response:  Count me in. Just purchased a Glock 17 (9mm) for my vehicle/camping trailer and a Ruger LCP (380 auto) for concealled carry. Still have 4 weeks to wait until I get my permit to carry concealled.

Some people have a problem with those who carry concealled at church (in some states, it’s illegal - not in mine). For those who have a problem with it, too bad.

IMHO, churches need to start encouraging their members to get carry permits. Until more people start carrying, the “bad guys” will always view churches as a congregation of victims.

I’m picturing a charismatic/pentecostal church where, in order to show how full of the holy spirit you are, you repeatedly discharge your handgun into the air.

Praise the lord and cap an angel!

“The apostles should have been packing when the gang came to arrest their hippie leader.”

As the quote above (from Matthew 25) shows, at least one was packing, and Jesus told him to put his weapon away.

“Some people have a problem with those who carry concealled at church (in some states, it’s illegal - not in mine). For those who have a problem with it, too bad. “

Um, I wouldn’t have a problem with it per se I’d just think the guy who does it would be a little weird and paranoid.

Well, I was wondering how long it would take before the “UUs aren’t real christians so they deserved it” argument would come out. And to the freeper who called it a “new age” church, this UU says: Fuck you. I am so angry, and so sad.

Here’s my thinking on the scenario.

You’re watching the play when you hear a shot from the back of the church. You stand up, turn around and reach for your gun - to see that 4 people in the congregation are also standing up and wielding guns.

Now, did one of them fire the shot you initially heard? Are they working with the guy at the back? Or are they - like you - just trying to “protect” themselves?

How can you possibly know?

When I read this…wow.  I didn’t go to my UU church (Kansas City) yesterday because it is a bit of a drive, and gas being high…  I started going there about two years ago with my son because I live in the midwest, and I wanted him to see a positive church experience.  Its a lovely place with caring people with a lot of diverse beliefs- I read “The God Delusion” for the church book club.  In other words, I fit in just fine.  We also have a big banner affirming gay marriage on the front of the building and a rainbow flag on the flagpole.  I’ve always worried that the resident knuckle-draggers might target my church for vandalism because of that, but I honestly never thought of someone opening up on a UU church with a shotgun.  Now, I know I was just deluding myself if I didn’t think that kind of violence possible.  And why is it possible?  Here’s the real reason:

He [60-year-old Greg McKendry, who jumped in front of the gunman’s bullet] did die doing good(which is nice), but, if his choice of churches is any indication, he died without knowing Christ. Death without Christ = eternal separation from God = Hell

I’ll be at church next week.  I’ll be wearing something rainbow-themed. Those fuckers better bring more shotguns with them next time- they’re going to have to kill a lot of people if they hope to shut the UU’s down and shut me up.

Um, I wouldn’t have a problem with it per se I’d just think the guy who does it would be a little weird and paranoid.

Yeah, I would have a fucking problem with anyone wo wanted to bring deadly weapons into my place of worship.

Of course, the majority of my spiritual practice lately takes place in a space where the signs reminding up to turn on our cell phones and remove our shoes end with “Om Shanti”. 

And one of the big reasons I gave up Wicca was the fact that I just don’t get what a big ole knife which should never be used to cut anything is doing in ritual in the first place.

bleh, the typos.

That should be:

anyone WHO wanted

reminding us to turn OFF our cell phones

boo.

“And one of the big reasons I gave up Wicca was the fact that I just don’t get what a big ole knife which should never be used to cut anything is doing in ritual in the first place. “

You really wouldn’t want to be a Sikh then.

Lol, yeah,I brought several friends of mine knives from the Golden Temple when I was in Amritsar, actually.  It’s an amazing place to visit, if you ever end up there.  And oddly enough, probably one of the few religions that I would seriously consider full-on conversion to, if they were the converting sort; in spite of the blade, though, not necessarily because of it.  Not to mention that the Sikh knives usually have dulled blades nowadays. 

It’s funny, the reason the Sikhs carry knives is for reasons not too different than this—they found themselves literally fighting for religious freedom under the more intolerant Mughal emperors. 

Also, there is some evidence that Sikhism is one of the inspirations for the Wiccan use of the athame.

First thing that occurred to me on reading those comments was Huck Finn - the Grangerfords and the Shepherdsons (feuding families) sitting in church with their guns in their laps listening to a sermon on brotherly love.

Except that’s satire.

Neko Onna, I hope the KC UU church never becomes a target.  The first thing I thought about when I heard there was a gunman shouting “hateful things” was our gay marriage banner.  It’s a sad thing when being an open and inclusive community makes you a target.

Would Jesus, the Prince of Peace, bring semiautomatic weapons into the House of God?

Yes.  “Think not that I am come to bring peace, but to bring the sword” (Matthew 10:34?).  And, obviously his disciples were packing ... their leader just told them to stand down, ‘cause (pace the Militia crowd), no matter how many weapons you have, the government will always be able to outgun you.

That being said, the second Freeper (the one without quote marks for the quote) actually gets it.  This

I know of very few churches, if any, that are officially gun free. The attacker in a situation like this always has the advantage of surprise and if has any gun training at all is going to shoot people before taken out.

is a point not made often enough ... even if you are armed to the hilt, the attacker still has the advantage of being the first to start shooting.  For all their love of the “wild west” (which, btw, wasn’t quite that wild from what I understand—towns were often, e.g. AFAIK, “gun free” zones), the gun-nut crowd seems never to have heard the phrase “he got the drop on me”.

“Are there any churches, anywhere, of any political or theological bent, where parishioners are expected to carry concealed weapons during church services?”

In Michigan, it is illegal under the state’s CCW laws to carry your licensed concealed weapon in church. I didn’t know we were such hippies for having this law.

There was an Idaho courthouse shooting last year where some well-intentioned guy grabbed his gun and ran to help take down the shooter.  He got shot two times and almost died.  I don’t think he even slowed the shooter down.

I’d like to see Antonin Scalia go to that church and explain to the survivors how, this guy being part of a well-regulated militia, his right to keep and bear arms should not be infringed.

Isn’t it funny how you never see wingnuts concluding their posts about these tragedies with, “And that’s why I wear a kevlar vest and kevlar helmet everywhere I go.  You never know when some nut is going to bomb your church.”

From a safety perspective, it seems like it would make much more sense.  But then, kevlar just isn’t as…exciting as pulling out your brand-new, shiny Glock and capping some dude.

On the holy weapons question: I thought of Coptic Christian representations of saints (and Jesus, IIRC) carrying big swords.  I also thought of snake-handlers.

even if you are armed to the hilt, the attacker still has the advantage of being the first to start shooting.  For all their love of the “wild west” (which, btw, wasn’t quite that wild from what I understand—towns were often, e.g. AFAIK, “gun free” zones), the gun-nut crowd seems never to have heard the phrase “he got the drop on me”.

Which is clue enough to let us know it’s all faux-masculine chest beating. And chest-beating is a TERRIBLE way to handle your weapon.

I’m not anti-gun like many liberals and progressives, but fer crissakes….have some COMMON SENSE when you talk about gun use!

You’re watching the play when you hear a shot from the back of the church. You stand up, turn around and reach for your gun - to see that 4 people in the congregation are also standing up and wielding guns.

Now, did one of them fire the shot you initially heard? Are they working with the guy at the back? Or are they - like you - just trying to “protect” themselves?

Hey! Some common sense!

(Also…if you draw your gun, are you SURE no non-combantants are in the line of fire? And are you sure you’ve given them time to get out of that line? [and in that time, the shooter will shoot a few more folks….])

I saw a news report that the shooter carried his shotgun into the church inside a guitar case.  Sounds like a concealed carry to me.

I have to talk to my dad about this; my folks are very active in the UU church in HI. Fortunately, since HI has very strict gun laws and is, well, Hawaii, there isn’t much chance of something like that happening here.

And I would think that concealed carry in church shows a distinct lack of faith, wouldn’t it? Just like fire extinguishers and lightning rods.

I thought of Coptic Christian representations of saints (and Jesus, IIRC) carrying big swords

Not just Coptic:

http://www.saintgeorgeromancatholicchurch.org/images/dragons_moreau_saint_george.jpg

Eh, it was only some human beings.

It’s not like somebody put a cracker in a trash can, or anything truly horrible like that.

Geepers - the lengths to which people will go to justify their unholy judgment of others, not to mention their perverse rationalizations of their own “faith” is amazing. Can anyone say bitter? Oops, forgot, that’s not PC to say about folks clinging to guns and a very narrow interpretation of faith.

A lot of the megachurches in Colorado Springs have secret armed security guards, and they encourage at least some congregants (off-duty cops and the like) to carry as well.

Yeah, I’m not sure what Jesus would have thought.

I’m not anti-gun, per se, but I think folks who talk like “honest citizens” carrying concealed would solve all our woes are fucking idiots and have probably never fired a gun in their lives.  Or they’re the kind of people I devoutly wish weren’t allowed to have guns.

(Hey, we require licenses for driving cars that prove one has passed a basic safety test; guns are also dangerous.  The Founding Fathers didn’t put the right to drive in the Constitution because they didn’t have cars, but if they did, people would probably be arguing that driver’s licenses are unconstitutional.)

At least the second and tenth commenter showed some sense and compassion. Second comment acknowledges that first one with guns out gets some free shots. Tenth comment actually sows compassion for the victims. I think the rest of the Freepers were glad that two died and seven were wounded. That’s what it seems like from the comments.

And the UU’s subdued hte assailant pretty quickly even without guns. I think the new meme out there is tht when a goup is assaulted it should attack. That’s what the UUs did and it worked. Two dead, five seriously wounded, and two treated and released is a pretty good outcome. We should commend the courage of the congregation.

ok, this:
“if his choice of churches is any indication, he died without knowing Christ. Death without Christ = eternal separation from God = Hell”

who ever said this - FUCK YOU!!!!!! did you read your own fucking holy book?!?!?!? it says “Thou shall not judge” and a whole buch more than that! fuck you you fucking fuck!!!!!!!

shit that THAT enrages me.

Freepers: Proving once again that winguttery is a serious mental disorder.

Yeah, that whole “likely died without knowing Christ” thing was a slap in the face and a kick in the nuts. But these folks are odd.

I used to have a highly intellectual fundie drinking buddy, the kind of guy who could argue that the Ontologcal proof was sound in S5 modal logics. I countered that any modal logic that made the ontological argument valid was an incosistent logic. I favored a hybrid system that used Lewis conditionals with the addition of transworld identity.

Intellectual fundie said he would commit violence to save others becaue those others might not be saved. He would never kill in self defense because if he died he would die saved. If he killed in self defense, the killer would die unsaved and go to hell. By losing his life he would give his killer a chance to become saved at a later time. I have to admire his consistency. I myself have few qualms about using violence in self defense. I can’t say I’d kill, like any other animal I’d probably stop applying force once I was safe, but if a death resulted from this, I’d be shaken and disturbed, but I would not believe I had done something wrong.

Yeah, I’m not sure what Jesus would have thought.

He did bring a whip to the temple, after all.

I wonder if the Freepers know that the terrorist’s reading material included Bill “The Harassturbator” O’Reilly, Michael “The Savage” Weiner, and Sean “The Jesus-Boy” Hannity; the Mein Kampf of the new fascist terrorist movement.

What would have happened to Jesus if all those moneylenders in the temple had been packing heat?

“Are there any churches, anywhere, of any political or theological bent, where parishioners are expected to carry concealed weapons during church services?”

In Michigan, it is illegal under the state’s CCW laws to carry your licensed concealed weapon in church. I didn’t know we were such hippies for having this law.

I believe that in Maine, there’s still a law on the books REQUIRING parishioners to bring their shotguns to church.  So that they can be prepared for an Indian attack.

Clearly these uneducated knuckle-draggers aren’t aware that John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Ethan Allen, and Paul Revere (to name but a few) were all Unitarians.

“Clearly these uneducated knuckle-draggers aren’t aware that John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Ethan Allen, and Paul Revere (to name but a few) were all Unitarians.”

Who, therefore, died and went to hell. It won’t bother them a bit, since they think the vast majority of people are going to hell. Anyone who can claim that someone who died giving his life to protect others IN CHURCH, is instantly going to hell isn’t going to be bothered by a few dead patriots joining him.

Thomas Jefferson was a Unitarian?  I always thought ol’ TJ was the Episcopalian version of the traditional Jewish “Apikoros”—wasn’t he an active lay leader in his local Church o’ England congregation who just happened to hold “heretical” views?  And shouldn’t those “traditionalist Anglicans” who think that the Anglican Communion should be more reactionary in its social positions be reminded of that traditional tolerance extended by said Church to heretical Deist types?

Meanwhile, I’m still wondering how goyim ended up with names like Ben Franklin and James Madison ...

“Thomas was a Unitarian?”

In practice, no (modern Unitarianism didn’t exist back then). In spirit, yes. Both stress the importance of freedom and rational inquiry (Jefferson Bible, anyone?) in one’s personal faith. The UU church positions itself as the inheritor of American religious movements connected to the Enlightenment project of spiritual inquiry (Deism, Universalism, Transcendentalism, etc), so it pretty much considers anyone associated with these religious strands - or even the project in general - as after-the-fact Unitarianisms. The type of people on this list will show you what I mean: http://members.iconn.net/~gedney1/FamousUUs.htm

Take that, “The Founding Fathers were Christian!!!1one!” types.

the interpreters back at Colonial Williamsburg (Impersonate a founding father for $13.50/hr! Is Washington *@@*# sober today?) expressed this idea: that Jefferson* was fond of playing with ideas, and often influenced by whatever book he had just read. He was born Anglican, and died Episcopal, buried in an Episcopal churchyard, but wrote a lot about his enthusiasms, discussing Quakers, anabaptists, presbyters, etc, etc, etc. This left him in good stead to write “It doesn’t matter if my neighbor has 20 gods or no god at all, it neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my legs.” (paraphrased)

Now, Patrick Henry, on the other hand, was the archetype of the “no authority over me but the lord himself” sociopath. As the dude who played him described it “if Henry was alive today, he would ride a harley from village to village, preaching the word of god”  (i include “as its sole authority”).

Henry was a huge rabble-rouser in the 18th century, but due to his (lack of) influential writings, hasn’t aged very well. He also wasn’t nearly as wealthy as a lot of the other VA aristocrats (as opposed to Montecello/ Mt. Vernon, his house looks like a bungalow).

*the guy who played him was a friend of my parents, and took his job very seriously. really good at it. Got invited all over the nation. Even had the requisite red hair.

I sole reason for this attack was hatred of those people who choose to be tolerante.  The christian bible is full of messages of peace and tolerance but yet some christians feel it is their divine right to prosecute others.  They seem to reveal in the idea that they are some how superior to others instead of the love of their deity. They seem to think they above every body else even other christian which don’t share their narrow mindness. “Hate is not a family value.” What a person does in his own bedroom or within his/her personal relationships in none of any one’s business, not the government nor any church. 

“He [60-year-old Greg McKendry, who jumped in front of the gunman’s bullet] did die doing good(which is nice), but, if his choice of churches is any indication, he died without knowing Christ. Death without Christ = eternal separation from God = Hell” 

Frankly, I don’t think that a hero like Mr. Greg Mckendry would want to go to a heaven ruled by such a petty jealous God, that would punish him for being tolerant.  Will some one please tell me what ever happened to “judge not less the be judged”  I can’t yell it loud enough i am a proud pagan, and i am free, thank the Goddess and God I am free of this ignorance forever.