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Next entry: Goddamn These Socialist Rough Riders Previous entry: Screw mortgages, here’s the real banking crisis

Friday Genius Ten “Duuuuuuude” Edition

Update: sorry, I fucked up the HTML.  All the cat pics are now up.

Team Pandagon is really kicking ass in the Bowl-a-Thon for the National Network of Abortion Funds. Because of you guys, we’re well past the $1,000 mark, and so both Jesse and I will be going bowling now, with him promising to bowl granny-style and I have promised to post my score so you can laugh at me.  As I write this, we’re at $1,890, which means we could, with a final push, easily make it past $2,500.  My friends suggested that what I should do, if we make it that far, is paint my toenails green to honor the greatest movie about bowling of all time.  I can’t say I’ve worn of the fingernail polish on either my toes or fingers in at least 4 years, so this is not something I take lightly.  I don’t even own nail polish remover, y’all.  Of course, if we get up to $5,000 by the time the fund drive ends today, I’ve promised to bowl in a “Fucking magnets, how do they work?” T-shirt.  So that’s where we stand.  You can donate here.  And as a special thank you, I’m going to leave extra kitty pictures in today’s Friday Genius Ten/cat pictures post. 

On to the music portion of today’s Friday morning post.  Silvana at Tiger Beatdown wrote an epic post that accurately described the issue of male dominance in rock music geekery.  This happens in all sorts of worlds, of course, but this post really hit on something that female rock fans and musicians have noticed for a long time.  It’s this phenomenon where you, the female fan, take men and their ideas and their talent very seriously.  You look up to male musicians, listen to your male friends’ opinions, and generally think of men as a source of intellectual stimulation and admiration.  But if you start extending this attitude towards women—-and why not, since you think of yourself as a thinking person, despite having a vagina—-you will butt heads with your male friends who find it implausible that women have much to offer the world besides warm vaginas, and in fact will start acting like some album or band is tainted if the women seem to like them a little too much. 

By no means do all dudes who like music act this way, of course.  But it comes at you from surprising angles.  But as you gain experience, you learn to spot the guys that’ll think like this, because a major flag is they’re guys who like what Silvana termed Dude Music (and they won’t like anything done by women, unless they’re perceived as closely controlled by the men in the band, whether they are or not).  Of course, this created a raging debate about what is and isn’t Dude Music, with more than sufficient butt-hurtness to go around, as is usual in these situations.  But Silvana’s right; you know Dude Music when you hear it.  It has a whiff of self-seriousness that stems from the male privilege of never having to yourself as an object of anything, much less ridicule.  Stoner rock is the classic example of Dude Music.  A lot of post-rock violates the self-seriousness rule and can be deemed Dude Music.  What’s funny is that the general music snob crowd is losing a lot of enthusiasm for Dude Music, because we want danceability, relatability, and humor.  There’s a reason that so much of the best rock now is Chick Rock.

But of course, the problem with writing about this is everyone starts nit-picking and finding exceptions and getting butt-hurt, which buries the original protest against a very real and miserable phenomenon.  Which is why it’s so great there are songs that make fun of Dude Music, because some things are easier to say in song than in writing.  Silvana picked out “The The Empty” by Le Tigre.  So I’m building my Genius Ten off the first song that came to my mind that has always been my personal anthem of frustration about this.  I have no idea what exactly inspired this song, but since she describes a guy who thinks he’s too good to hang out with the “girl band”, I have a pretty good idea.  Both this song and “The The Empty” really point the direction of the only healthy way to deal with the Dudes in rock music.  Ignore them.  They’re becoming dinosaurs.

Original song: “You’re No Rock and Roll Fun” by Sleater-Kinney

A challenge for commenters sharing lists: skip all the bands that come up that are all dudes and let’s do lists celebrating the huge numbers of women in music, numbers that are increasingly hard to marginalize.

1) “Tell You Now”—-Le Tigre
2) “6’1”“—-Liz Phair
3) “All Medicated Geniuses”—-Pretty Girls Make Graves
4) “Divine Hammer”—-The Breeders
5) “Fire Sign”—-The Gossip (I realize they’re just Gossip now, but I’m going to be a grandma on this one.) 
6) “Dry”—-PJ Harvey
7) “If You Should Try To Kiss Her”—-Dressy Bessy
8) “Pile of Gold”—-The Blow
9) “Victrola”—-Veruca Salt
10) “Terrible Storm”—-Tegan & Sara

Videos and bonus cat pics below the fold.

Okay, so part of the reason we have a shit ton of cat pictures this week is Marc got a new camera.  And the cats love having their picture taken.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:40 AM • (124) Comments

Serious Kitteh is serious.

No Genius here at work, so just regular shuffle ten, “How do people get up EVERY MORNING like this?” edition:

1. Metric - “Too Little, Too Late”
2. Goldfrapp - “Ooh La La”
3. The Gossip - “Fire With Fire”
4. Peggy Lee - “Fever”
5. Peaches - “Fuck the Pain Away”
6. P.J. Harvey - “One Time Too Many”
7. Dee Edwards - “Why Can’t There Be Love?”
8. M.I.A. - “Galang”
9. La Roux - “Bulletproof”
10. My Gold Mask - “B****s”

Comment #1: Well, what?  on  04/16  at  11:14 AM

Silvana wrote a badly written post about a real phenomenon, and now she’s infuriated that people responded to what she wrote (a bunch of psychoanalyzing of bands whose music she doesn’t like, in which she claimed to read their minds and determine that they hate women and think of them solely as sex objects) instead of what she meant (which was apparently something funny ha-ha).  I would have thought she’d been around on the Internet long enough to expect that people would respond to what she wrote and not what she was thinking in her head.

Comment #2: neff  on  04/16  at  11:14 AM

I don’t have any songs to add yet, but I just saw “The Runaways” and, while parts are problematic, Joan Jett just rocks soooo hard.

Comment #3: NobleExperiments  on  04/16  at  11:23 AM

“Careful man, there’s a beverage here!”

Comment #4: whiskeytangofoxtrot  on  04/16  at  11:27 AM

I went with the itunes shuffle as well. The very first song that came up was actually Pansy Division’s “Musclehead.” A great choice for taking the piss out of dude rock, but they don’t make the cut for this list.

The ten mostly show that I need more rock in my life.

Baguette Quartette—En Douce

Nina Simone—Ain’t no Use.

Ani DiFranco—78% H20

Arcade Fire—Un Anee sans Lumiere

Juana Molina—Quien

Loretta Lynn—High on a Mountaintop

MIA—Bucky Done Gone

Tori Amos—Caught a Little Sneeze

Alliosn Krauss and Union Station—Stay

Dixie Chicks—Tonight the Heartache’s on Me.

Comment #5: Babieca  on  04/16  at  11:35 AM

Anyway you took my #1 choice for song about that (“You’re No Rock and Roll Fun”, the best expression of it ever) but here’s some other stuff

Huggy Bear, “Her Jazz”

Cibo Matto, “Birthday Cake”

Kaiku, “Valon Reuna”

Gigi Shibabaw, “Washintu”

Tara Jane O’Neil, “Sunday Song”

Lush, “Single Girl”

Circus Lupus, “I Always Thought You Were An Asshole” (with Arika Casebolt’s killer drumming)

Poster Children, “Pearly Gates” (now there’s a band I actually got into in the 90s because of Rose’s tour diaries on their Web site she ran as the band’s resident computer nerd)

Nite Jewel, “Chimera”

Takako Minekawa, “Kangaroo Pocket Calculator”


yeesh this took too long to put together because I don’t have my mp3 player with me and I can never remember the names of songs unless the band drills them into my head by singing them over and over in the lyrics

Comment #6: neff  on  04/16  at  11:39 AM

I never do this kind of thing, but compiling lists of good songs by women? I’ve been lately actively collecting stuff by women, or at least with female lead singers, so I have a bunch of these. In fact to cut it down to ten, I have to cut out everyone who might appear a lot on other people’s lists, like PJ Harvey or Tori Amos or Kate Bush.

“Trapped in Amber” - Envie
“Yes and No” - Venus Hum
“Violet’s Dance” - Collide
“Ghosts” - Ladytron
“Death via Satellite” - theStart
“Inner Universe” - vocals and lyrics by Origa, music by Yoko Kanno
“From Here To Gone” - Heather Duby and Elemental
“Nutopia” - Meg Lee Chin
“Satellite Mind” - Metric
“Can’t Find The Door” - Sam Phillips

Comment #7: Alara J Rogers  on  04/16  at  11:59 AM

Can someone please give some examples of “Dude Music”? I’m not familiar with that term and this post (as well as Silvana’s) is a bit vague about defining it. Thanks.

Comment #8: Amazing Larry  on  04/16  at  12:06 PM

I did, Amazing Larry.  Stoner rock.  A lot of post-rock.  Prog rock is dudely music.  Much of heavy metal is, as well.  Rush is super duper Dude Rock.  The more self-important emo is.  Most mainstream “alternative” rock is dude music.

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/16  at  12:08 PM

Of course, like I said the post, trying to draw the outlines of Dude Music is going to be a losing battle, since you can never scientifically prove taste.  It’s easier therefore to talk about sexism in terms of how women are mistreated and marginalized.  But Dude Music is a red flag—-if you have that sneaking suspicion women aren’t welcome as musicians unless properly sexually objectified, it’s Dude Music.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/16  at  12:11 PM

A friend of mine had a good measure long before this post was written—-if you walk in to the show, and no women are there of their own volition (girlfriends tagging along don’t count), then it’s Dude Rock.  And it’s probably going to suck, with few exceptions.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/16  at  12:14 PM

Actually the stoner/jamband thing seems odd to include here to me, since most of the devoted fans of that kind of thing I’ve known were women.

I think a lot of this stuff is just music that’s made by nerds for nerds, which meant that up until fairly recently it was mostly guys, but now that the Internet seems to have made it a lot easier to be happy and fulfilled as a female nerd, I’m seeing a lot more women involved in this stuff.  I wouldn’t be too quick to attribute woman-hatred or sexual objectification to the actual members of these bands (as opposed to some of their fans)

Comment #12: neff  on  04/16  at  12:17 PM

“Vampyre Erotica” - Inkubus Sukkubus
“Twist in My Sobriety” - Tanita Takaram
“They Weren’t There” - Missy Higgins
“The Howling” - Within Temptation
“Scarecrow” - Siouxsie and the Banshees
“Remember the Tin Man” - Tracy Chapman
“Out in the Real World” - Stream of Passion
“Misguided Angel” - Cowboy Junkies
“Innocence” - Halestorm
“We Are Broken” - Paramore

Comment #13: adobedragon  on  04/16  at  12:22 PM

How about a band like Radiohead? They could be considered post-rock…mainstream alternative…even modern prog. You could easily make the argument that they take themselves too seriously, and I don’t believe there are any women in the band. Are they Dude Rock? And is it the band that determines whether they should be identified as such, or their fans?

Comment #14: Amazing Larry  on  04/16  at  12:24 PM

@Larry: I would say that Radiohead qualifies as the rare specimen of Dude Rock that doesn’t suck.

Comment #15: Well, what?  on  04/16  at  12:27 PM

Yeah, see what I mean?  It’s impossible not to get exception-pulling, hair-splitting, etc.  And it distracts from the main point, which is that there’s this extreme sexism in music geekery that most women in music have experienced, often quite a bit.  Things like:

“I just don’t like women’s voices.  They’re too high/whiny.”

“Chicks only play bass, because it’s the easiest instrument.  It’s for the girlfriend.”

(When a female bassist does more than just keeping the beat.) “Eh, she doesn’t write her own stuff.”

The way that mediocre players who have that certain something are honored if they’re male, but women can only get on the “best of” lists if they’ve got indisputable technical skills.  The only way passion counts towards your greatness is if you’re male.

Expecting a cookie because you paid attention to a female musician because she’s hot, and then realized she could play.

Acting surprised any time a woman knows anything about rock.

If too many women are fans, losing respect for a band.

Absolutely refusing to enjoy synth pop, dance music, or anything that seems “gay”, even while decrying homophobia.

I could go on!  I’m sad to see the point missed in all the noodling and nit-picking and looking to be butt hurt.

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/16  at  12:27 PM

Are they Dude Rock?

Depends on whether we are going by the gender of the band members or by the gender of the people they sleep with.

Comment #17: rea  on  04/16  at  12:28 PM

Amazing, you’re noodling and nit-picking in order to miss the point, I’m afraid.  *SIGH*

The point is that musicians who are more interested in repelling feminine energy and seeming like manly men tend to make the most boring as shit. I don’t think Thom Yorke is in that category.  He sings like a girl.

Where it gets confusing is Dude Fans often take stuff that isn’t Dude Rock as if it were.  Like Nirvana’s base is chock full of fanboys who live in denial about the fact that their hero was a feminist who drew inspiration from Riot Grrrl.

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/16  at  12:31 PM

Well you have to admit that it’s hard not to be insulted by someone saying that the members of a band you like and all of their fans are misogynists who only think of women as sex objects.

Comment #19: neff  on  04/16  at  12:32 PM

Okay, but I do think it’s something that’s easy to be insulted by if you want to be.  The larger point—-that there’s a real tendency to set up barriers for women—-is so important, and missing it is so annoying. And I’ll trust you’ve found the secret pocket of non-girlfriends who listen to stoner rock.  Having decided a couple years ago that I would never, ever get dragged to another stoner rock show again after seeing dozens upon dozens of them in order to socialize with beloved male friends, I haven’t actually seen these women there on their own. 

I don’t think said dudes are necessarily misogynists.  A good 10% of stoner rock fans have collections of music that have some female representation.  But I sure wouldn’t go looking for a boyfriend at their shows.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/16  at  12:39 PM

Well you have to admit that it’s hard not to be insulted by someone saying that the members of a band you like and all of their fans are misogynists who only think of women as sex objects.

And that’s so much worse than actually being the victim of misogyny and only regarded as a sex object.

Comment #21: rivki  on  04/16  at  12:40 PM

Actually the stoner/jamband thing seems odd to include here to me, since most of the devoted fans of that kind of thing I’ve known were women.

I don’t think stoner rock and jam band music are the same thing.  Jam band music is noodling and dancable.  Stoner rock is more like Black Sabbath.

Comment #22: Wallace  on  04/16  at  12:41 PM

Just happen to be listening to Swans at the moment - Jarboe and Michael Gira were a dynamic creative duo.

Listen to Jarboe’s solo work if you haven’t, some great stuff there. Here’s Lavender Girl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBCJ0Z89NNk

Comment #23: samp  on  04/16  at  12:43 PM

I don’t think stoner rock and jam band music are the same thing.  Jam band music is noodling and dancable.  Stoner rock is more like Black Sabbath.

Oh okay, that explains it, terminological confusion.  When Silvana was complaining about “noodling” I guess it made me think of bands like Phish that I don’t particularly care for but I know that cheerful dancing women seem to be a big part of their audience, and then the term “stoner rock” confused me. 

On the Internet lately (e.g. on youtube or on blogs like http://lorinator.feminoise.com/ ) I’ve noticed the number of young women who are seriously into being monster technical instrumentalists seems to be growing quickly, so I think some of these categories are going to change.  I’ve never been into that prog rock or shred metal stuff, partly because it exuded a sort of macho-ness that turned me off, but I’m suspecting it’s going to be losing its dudeness fairly quickly in the coming years.

(That’s what prompted my speculation that the Internet making it more socially acceptable for young girls to geek out about stuff is probably changing some of these things—I am generalizing here, but don’t think there are too many people who end up doing prog rock unless they were seriously obsessive about this stuff since childhood and never gave up on it.)

Comment #24: neff  on  04/16  at  12:49 PM

Well you have to admit that it’s hard not to be insulted by someone saying that the members of a band you like and all of their fans are misogynists who only think of women as sex objects

Good lord. What is it about people and this topic insisting on nit-picking and getting butthurt? Like the feminists like to say: “If it’s not about you, it’s not about you.”

If you like a band, and you’re not a misogynist, then IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU no matter how much the members of the band are misogynists and their fans are.

Here’s a band I like: Explosions in the Sky. Their music is extremely dudely. It’s 9 minute songs with no vocals where they show off at how awesome they are at the guitar. And do a lot of riffing. Am I calling myself a misogynist because I like them and they are dude music?

Seriously, if you’re not a misogynist, it doesn’t matter what kind of music you like. If you do the things that Amanda talks about in comment #16, then you should check yourself. Otherwise don’t worry.

Sheesh.

Comment #25: m_leblanc  on  04/16  at  12:50 PM

Sorry, I’m a purist, and the list is still whatever 10 thingamajigs my music player spits out: (1) Lost Boy in the Wilderness by Reverend Gary Davis (2) You Won’t Let Me Go by Ray Charles (3) Mr. Bozack by EPMD (4) Frisky by Sly & the Family Stone (5) What’s the Use of Breaking Up by Jerry Butler (6) Blood Makes Noise by Suzanne Vega (7) Good Shepherd by Jefferson Airplane (8) Woman Turn Around by The Dillards (9) The Great Gig in the Sky by Pink Floyd (10) Do The Contract Hustle by The Boys.

20% complaint, 30% if you consider that the backup singer(s) carry #9.

Comment #26: norbizness  on  04/16  at  12:53 PM

Seriously, if you’re not a misogynist, it doesn’t matter what kind of music you like. If you do the things that Amanda talks about in comment #16, then you should check yourself. Otherwise don’t worry.

Yeah it was your post in the comments thread about Explosions in the Sky that indicated to me you weren’t tarring all the band members and fans with that same brush.  I had initially been going by the conclusion of your post:

Because it is made by men, for men to enjoy, for men to profit from. Women have three roles: 1) to serve as inspirations for songs; 2) to be sex objects who, hopefully, also make music men feel good about Their Art; 3) to be someone who is dangerously standing in the way of men acheiving greatness (see, e.g., Yoko Ono and Nancy Spungen, Sid Vicious’ girlfriend). Women do not make the music. Hopefully they buy the music, but not too many of them because then your music is Not Serious.

But hey, dudes who make serious, manly music? I went to your concert and I didn’t feel anything. Also, fuck you.

which to me certainly seems to imply that you think the people who make that music and the people who listen to it are intentionally putting women into roles 1, 2, and 3, or else why would you end with “fuck you”?  I still don’t understand why that was your conclusion if that’s not what you meant.

Comment #27: neff  on  04/16  at  12:54 PM

Absolutely refusing to enjoy synth pop, dance music, or anything that seems “gay”, even while decrying homophobia.

This is the point I was about to bring up.  While I respect your love of rock, Amanda, it’s a whole other thing trying to discuss musical tastes with a dude rock fan when you’re not primarily into rock music at all.  I present as a man, and I’ve had other men express genuine disbelief that rock’s not my thing.  It’s like they view the electric guitar as some sort of phallic avatar, and if you don’t worship it there’s something wrong with you.

I can’t get Genius to synthesize my two main areas of interest (contemporary dance/hip hop and classic jazz/showtunes), so here’s two genius fives:

1. Anita O’Day “Is You Is or Is You Ain’t My Baby”
2. Ella Fitzgerald “Undecided”
3. Nina Simone “Pirate Jenny”
4. Ethel Merman “Alexander’s Ragtime Band”
5. Eartha Kitt “I Want to Be Evil”

1. Uffie “MCs Can Kiss”
2. Peaches “Take You On”
3. Yelle “Ce Jeu”
4. Kap Bambino “New Breath”
5. Lady Gaga “Teeth”

And yeah, I know Gaga is a little mainstream for this crowd, but if you’re into smart dance music (note: smart dance music doesn’t usually mean lyrical depth), she’s impossible not to pay attention to.

Comment #28: Dustin L  on  04/16  at  12:57 PM

This is the point I was about to bring up.  While I respect your love of rock, Amanda, it’s a whole other thing trying to discuss musical tastes with a dude rock fan when you’re not primarily into rock music at all.  I present as a man, and I’ve had other men express genuine disbelief that rock’s not my thing.  It’s like they view the electric guitar as some sort of phallic avatar, and if you don’t worship it there’s something wrong with you.

Yeah I always liked to sing that Pet Shop Boys bit about “they made you some kind of laughing stock / because you dance to disco and you don’t like rock” ... it’s probably also why “You’re No Rock and Roll Fun” stuck out to me when I first heard it.

It’s especially weird to me when people will deride guys for not being into the rockiest rock music but also deride women for being into it and start to dislike the bands themselves if women are into it, as Silvana mentioned in her post—you would think that as defensive as indie rock guys are about how liberal and enlightened they are, they could see how much gender policing they’re doing there, but nope!

Comment #29: neff  on  04/16  at  01:03 PM

yay Sleater-Kinney!

They have a bunch of songs about dude music to varying degrees. “The Ballad of a Ladyman,” “Words and Guitar,” and “I Wanna Be Your Joey Ramone” come to mind at the moment.

Comment #30: Tree  on  04/16  at  01:06 PM

“... which means we could, with a final push,...”

I gotta admit, I kinda chuckled at seeing this line in a post for the National Network of Abortion Funds.

Comment #31: soapdish  on  04/16  at  01:09 PM

I love a lot of Dude Music, I admit it.  But I like a lot of other kinds of music too.  I don’t think the main point is to say that some genres suck and others don’t.  It’s more about the stupid social barriers that have kept Teh Womenz out of the rock clubhouse.

If that’s the case, then I think it’s kind of a losing proposition to point out the specific sounds of Dude Music, and you can’t be surprised that it opens the door to all the nitpicking and butthurtedness.  It’s like looking at the shadow of a huge beast behind a sheet.  We know it’s big.  And stinky.  But is it an elephant?  Or a hippo?  Or a cow?  Does it matter?  Dude Music is more of a meta-genre and social construct than a specific sound.

Even narrowing it down to words like ‘self seriousness’ or ‘noodling’ vs. ‘humor’ or ‘danceability’ will derail any conversation about this, because the mind instantly wanders to all the exceptions.  And the tastes of the music snob community are a continuously moving target (as it should be), not a universal constant, so seeing which way the critical winds are blowing isn’t always a reliable metric either.

Comment #32: Dr. Locrian  on  04/16  at  01:11 PM

Amazing, you’re noodling and nit-picking in order to miss the point, I’m afraid.

I’m really not, honestly. I’m just trying to understand in objective terms how to identify the music you are referring to. I agree that people who make the statements you listed above are shitheads, but I’m having trouble making the jump toward your claim that there is a whole musical category called “Dude Rock” that can only be identified in vague, subjective terms like “musicians who are more interested in repelling feminine energy.” Or bands where the only women in the audience are girlfriends that were dragged there. This is further complicated by the fact that there are apparently “good” bands like Radiohead or Nirvana that nevertheless fall into the category of Dude Rock or attract fans of that hypothetical genre. (ie. Fans that like the right music for the wrong reasons.)

It just seems to me that what you’re really objecting to is shitheads who judge music in sexist terms, regardless of whether or not the music itself has any artistic/femminst merit. The term “Dude Rock” is simply a vaguely-defined pejorative term that you can conveniently throw out to piss on bands that you don’t like.

Comment #33: Amazing Larry  on  04/16  at  01:13 PM

To me Dude Music will always be Jimi and Led Zep. When I was in high school (late 70’s, early 80’s) only the dudely, douchey dudes liked them. Of course later I realized I liked them too but still have to mentally apologize to myself for liking them.

Comment #34: samp  on  04/16  at  01:15 PM

I think the original point is that male music geeks discount the input of female musicians.  And you can tell which guys are more inclined to do this because they’re into “dude music”.  Dude music being the kind of music where you obsess over the technical aspect of the music.  They play in weird modes over odd key signatures (like prog rock), or you obsess over the speed and virtuosity of the guitar players.  I don’t think there’s any intended insult against the bands or their fans.  It’s only noting that the guys who go on and on the most about this stuff tend to be the ones who won’t listen to female musicians.

Comment #35: Wallace  on  04/16  at  01:16 PM

So both Cinderella AND Color Me Badd? My collection is totally screwed!

Holy shit! Spoonman is in 7/4!

Comment #36: norbizness  on  04/16  at  01:33 PM

This is going to sound a bit off-topic at first, but: this post makes me want the atheist revolution to be complete already. *sadface*

I’m actually not familiar with any of these bands (I, uh, mostly listen to Goth, and metal, and silly dancepop…), so I decided to click on the videos and listen to them, and then the church bells started playing, and I was like, oh, damn, I guess I’d better come back in eight and a half minutes; I’mma go make breakfast. Then I only got to listen to the first one before I had to go to class.

So then I get back from class and I’m like, yay, now I can listen to the other ones, but then the noon churchbells started playing, and I’m like, damn, I’ll go wash dishes for a bit, and come back in eight and a half minutes when the churchbells are over.

While not quite the sort of Dude Music you’re talking about, there’s a sort of hypermasculine entitlement about churches still having bells (and belltowers! we can make immature jokes about belltowers!) now that we’ve invented clocks and don’t really need them to tell us what time it is. The church around here is just like “THIS MUSIC IS REALLY REALLY REALLY IMPORTANT, EVERYONE STOP AND LISTEN TO IT, IF ANYBODY IN A FIVE-BLOCK RADIUS FELT LIKE DOING ANYTHING ELSE IN THE NEXT EIGHT MINUTES, TOO DAMN BAD I DON’T CARE ABOUT YOU.” Churchbells are the ultimate assumption that other people don’t have their own lives where they might be trying to do shit. The bells in my area are loud enough to completely drown out any noise within the noise ordinances for about three blocks—I’ve had to pause movies, stop conversations, get up and close all the windows, and just sit and wait til its over—and I once got a migraine from waiting at the bus stop in front of the church at the top of the hour, and I wasn’t exaggerating when I said eight and a half minutes; I’ve timed them several times.

So, yeah. I wanted to watch these videos, but instead I listened to Amazing Grace on out-of-tune recorded handbells at headache-inducing levels, and now I’m a little cranky.

Fuck churches.

Comment #37: thecynicalromantic  on  04/16  at  01:33 PM

“Chicks only play bass, because it’s the easiest instrument.  It’s for the girlfriend.”
(When a female bassist does more than just keeping the beat.) “Eh, she doesn’t write her own stuff.”
....
If too many women are fans, losing respect for a band.

I so totally hate these attitudes.  Like, “Girls can play rhythm guitar but god forbid they play lead guitar!” and “You can’t be true heavy metal if a woman is playing lead”.

This exactly parallels the attitudes toward women in science.  “I think more girls major in biology because it’s easier and less rigorous than The Hard Sciences (TM)”.  Or well ok, we’ll accept that women can do biology and chemistry.  But not physics! Cause it’s the pinnacle of the sciences!

Comment #38: Stained Class  on  04/16  at  01:40 PM

Black Sabbath is stoner rock? They used to be called ‘acid rock’, a genre that was popularized by Jefferson Airplane and Big Brother & The Holding Company, both of which were centered around female vocalists.

Base Song: “More Man” - The Meat Purveyors

1. “Mood To Burn Bridges” - Neko Case & Her Boyfriends
2. “Call Me” - Blondie
3. “Psycho Killer” - Talking Heads
4. “Fell In Love With A Girl” - The White Stripes
5. “She Bop” - Cyndi Lauper
6. “Middle Of The Road” - The Pretenders
7. “Where Is My Mind” - The Pixies
8. “Sweet Is The Melody” - Iris Dement
9. “I’m So Lonesome Without You” - Hazeldine
10. “Rock Lobster” - The B-52’s

Bonus: “Victoria” - The Fall (I think that’s Brix-era Fall, but I could be wrong)

Comment #39: Sarcastro  on  04/16  at  01:43 PM

Just an edited and pruned Random 10 (because Genius refused to recognize a lot of my choices!  Grr):

1. Ludicra—One Thousand Wolves
2. Shop Assistants—I Don’t Want To Be Friends With You
3. MIA—Boyz
4. Painting Petals on Planet Ghost—Sono Ko Hatachi
5. Melt Banana—Mouse is a Biscuit
6. Zola Jesus—Stridulum
7. Murkrat—Morality Slug
8. Plasmatics—No Class
9.  The Paybacks—Painkiller
10. Black Tambourine—Throw Aggi Off The Bridge

Comment #40: Dr. Locrian  on  04/16  at  01:45 PM

“Absolutely refusing to enjoy synth pop, dance music, or anything that seems “gay”, even while decrying homophobia”

I remember back in the day when a buddy of mine saw my New Order CD on the table by my stereo and said “Dude, you listen to that? Its fag-rock.”

Then I played “True Faith” and the remix of “Bizarre Love Triangle” and he went on for hours about what “a fucking flat-out jam” it was. He had never even heard them. Just heard OF them and based his opinion on what people TOLD him. “Dudes” can be so silly.

Comment #41: Mark  on  04/16  at  01:49 PM

I like a lot of both Dude Music and non-Dude Music.  I happen to like art/progressive rock in particular among the dudely genres, a taste that I acquired from my mother, oddly enough.  I know that prog rock tends to get criticized for an overemphasis on the technical aspects of the music, but I happen to like that emphasis when I’m in the mood for it.  I think punk music (while I like a lot of it) made it more acceptable to play like shit and excuse it by saying it’s more “raw” or “real” or “authentic” (the latter concept being one that I’m especially skeptical of when applied to art).

My FRT:

1.  “It Just Is”, Rilo Kiley
2.  “A Winter’s Sky”, The Pipettes
3.  “Atlantis”, Donovan
4.  “In Bloom”, Nirvana
5.  “Space Oddity”, David Bowie
6.  Sour Times (Nobody Loves Me)”, Portishead
7.  “Working With Fire And Steel”, China Crisis
8.  “Expelled From Love”, The Raveonettes
9.  “Where I’m From”  Digable Planets
10.  “Move This”, Technotronic (featuring Ya Kid K)

Comment #42: Linnaeus  on  04/16  at  02:16 PM

Amazing, you introduced the word “objective” into the discussion. If you approach any discussion of art with that mindset, you will never get it.

Comment #43: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/16  at  02:22 PM

I like a lot of Dude Music.  Led Zeppelin and the rolling stones are sweet.  I was big into 80’s hardcore punk that had a whole lot fewer women than 70’s punk or punk since the 90’s. 

I thought this book was interesting:

http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Revolts-Gender-Rebellion-RockNRoll/dp/067480273X

Comment #44: lemmy caution  on  04/16  at  02:23 PM

I don’t just love rock music.  I’m a pretty omnivorous pop music fan.  I almost definitely listen to as much synth pop/dance as rock, possibly more lately.  Yesterday I put on these three records in a row: Big Star, Laurie Anderson, Peaches.  I LOVE dance pop.  It’s like everything I love in music.  It’s joy distilled. I love the Pet Shop Boys.

Rolling Stones are out of Dude Music on a technicality.  Mick Jagger sings like a girl.  Dude Fans may like them, which makes the fact that they want the Stones to be Dude Music even funnier.

Comment #45: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/16  at  02:27 PM

Oops, I didn’t read the challenge at the end.

Comment #46: Linnaeus  on  04/16  at  02:37 PM

Now I have a term for it. The intown hipster 40ish all-white “alterna"GenXers that make up one sphere of our acquaintance go on and on and on and ON about what cool band they just went and saw: they’re all swooning right now, because so-and-so has Pavement tickets. They bring their iPods to parties and whoever is the highest-ranking hipster guy gets to take over the stereo. And it is always, always the most whiny, boring, beatless downtempo emo “rock”: Radiohead would be, like, too aggressive. Mrs. F has to talk me down from sneaking in there and plugging in the B-52’s or something else fun.

But it only hit me fairly recently that every single one of the bands they play has a guy singer. And now I know they’re Dudes, even if they all voted for Obama and wouldn’t play baseball if you paid them. Now I want to put Rush on their stereo.

Comment #47: felagund  on  04/16  at  02:46 PM

I think the Dude Music thing was so crucial, because a lot of young women are guilted if they don’t like shit that has this aggressive, masculine energy that is almost deliberately off-putting to women.  You’re often made to feel that if you don’t like it, it just proves that women are stupid and don’t get it.  So you front, but of course the problem is the only reason it’s considered great a lot of the time is precisely because of how Dudely it is. 

So reading Silvana’s post was, for women who’ve suffered this, permission to say, “Fuck it.  I don’t like it and I’m not stupid.”

I’d say it’s a stretch to say that she was calling all fans of Dude Music misogynists, especially since she explicitly said she was not.

I got it.  Even though a very dear friend of mine has this baffling love of the most Dudely fucking stoner rock and heavy metal shit that makes me want to drill my eardrums out.  I know the “if it’s not about you, it’s not about you” rule, so I realize that of course he’s not who she was talking about.  This is my friend who is at the front row of all sorts of synth pop shows with me.  He loves Devo. He introduced me to Chromeo.  He’s actually one of the few men I know who can successfully get through a conversation about female musicians he likes without even once mentioning whether he would grace them with his cock if he had a chance.  Obviously, it’s not about him.

But god, some of the guys I’d meet at those shows before I decided that I wasn’t going to those shows with him anymore?  Dudes all the way.

Comment #48: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/16  at  02:48 PM

Exactly, felagund.

I think Dudes are actually the main reason Insufferable Music Snobs are hated.  Because non-dude IMSes I know have a playful attitude about it.  My friends will dog on someone’s taste in the same spirit that people dog on each others’ sports teams.  Or favorite superheroes or whatever.  We can all have a beer about it.  I post about music in that spirit, but it’s often taken as more serious than I mean it, and I blame Dudes.  They ruin it for the rest of us, who think of music snobbery as a rough sport, but just a game at the end of the day.

Comment #49: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/16  at  02:51 PM

Amazing, you introduced the word “objective” into the discussion. If you approach any discussion of art with that mindset, you will never get it.

C’mon Amanda, that’s silly and you know it. Whether or not a work of art is “good” is certainly a subjective judgment call. But do you really believe that there is no objective criteria for determining whether a work of art fits a particular style or genre? That any painting can be described as “cubist” just by saying that it is so. Or that any particular song can be identified as “jazz” regardless of objective criteria like its musical arrangement or use of improvisation? If so, then you are proving my point that Dude Rock is simply a meaningless term that only reflects your personal, individual taste.

Comment #50: Amazing Larry  on  04/16  at  02:58 PM

Thanks for pointing us to that Tiger Beatdown entry. I don’t recall being terribly disrespected when it comes to music and music tastes, but somehow that screed seemed vaguely “right” to me. I loved reading it and all the comments. I guess a lot of us felt like there were something rotten in that regard.

1.) “Not Too Soon”—Throwing Muses
2.) “Big Tall Man”—Liz Phair
3.) “Peek-A-Boo”—Siouxsie and the Banshees
4.) “Velouria”—Pixies
5.) “Seether”—Veruca Salt
6.) “Naked Eye”—Luscious Jackson
7.) “Hot Topic”—LeTigre
8.) “Hounds of Love”—Kate Bush
9.) “Cross Bones Style”—Cat Power
10.) “Ex-Guru”—The Fiery Furnaces

Comment #51: Vacuumslayer  on  04/16  at  03:10 PM

As long as we’re on this topic, maybe we should discuss why it is that so many progressive enlightened white/asian people seem to think it’s edgy and radical to love a genre of music that has even fewer African-Americans than country music.

Comment #52: vanya6724  on  04/16  at  03:16 PM

Also, I’m disappointed no one’s really discussed rap/hip-hop at all. My formative years—music-wise—were often spent listening to Public Enemy, The Beastie Boys and Tribe Called Quest…and not a whole lot else! And to this day, rap/hip-hop is still one of my favorite music genres.

Comment #53: Vacuumslayer  on  04/16  at  03:17 PM

For all that I’m not that into rock now, I ADORED Throwing Muses back in the day.  I met Kristin Hersh once, which was my crowning moment of awesome for several years.  And I do still listen to some rock.  Lately I’ve been repeatedly playing last year’s Bitch and the Exciting Conclusion EP, which I’d definitely call rock at its best, although I have a feeling it wouldn’t win over the dudely dudes.

Also, Amanda, I didn’t mean to sound like I was accusing you of rockism.  Actually, it was your 2009 SXSW post that introduced me to Yelle and the Octopus Project, both of whom I love now.  So thanks for that.

Comment #54: Dustin L  on  04/16  at  03:18 PM

“As long as we’re on this topic, maybe we should discuss why it is that so many progressive enlightened white/asian people seem to think it’s edgy and radical to love a genre of music that has even fewer African-Americans than country music. “

Wow. Great minds and all…

Comment #55: Vacuumslayer  on  04/16  at  03:18 PM

“I ADORED Throwing Muses back in the day. “

I actually would be posing if I said I were big fan. I just happen to have one of their songs in my Liberry. I’m a song slut…evaluate every song/artist—with the exception of a few—on a case by case basis. It’s rare these days for me to download an entire album.

I guess when you look at music like that and you’re almost always searching for another song to grasp onto, it’s hard to dismiss the half the population.

Comment #56: Vacuumslayer  on  04/16  at  03:22 PM

But do you really believe that there is no objective criteria for determining whether a work of art fits a particular style or genre? That any painting can be described as “cubist” just by saying that it is so.

The difference between “any painting can be called cubist” and “frequently paintings, due to a mix of influences, are hard to classify as cubist or non-cubist on purely objective standards” is huge.

Obviously there are some strictly objective requirements to be Dude Rock.  The band can’t be all-female, for example.  But you’ve got to have some fuzzy aesthetic sensibilities to sort it out beyond the clearest examples that hit all the factors you’d name.

Comment #57: Ferox  on  04/16  at  03:23 PM

Most recent “kids these days” moment was when the dude on the college radio station was reading liner notes (or an announcement) “something something connected to umm Sleater-Kinney? Am I pronouncing that right? Not sure who they are. Anyway.”

Comment #58: Shiny  on  04/16  at  03:27 PM

My lady random 10

1. “Fuck All!” - Atari Teenage Riot
2. “Erotomatoca” - Servotron
3. “Put in the Reel” - Sarge
4. “Non Non Non” - The Gossip
5. “Absorb Those Numbers” - Marnie Stern
6. “Born in Flames” - Essential Logic
7. “His Head All Red” - LiLiPUT
8. “You Did It” - Ko & the Knockouts
9. “Teen Tighterns” - Huggy Bear
10. “One Note” - White Magic

Comment #59: jessilikewhoa  on  04/16  at  03:27 PM

i couldn’t agree more that Music Snobbery should be treated like a game, but i think some people are trying to have it both ways.  with Dudes, taste in music can be used to diagnose fatal flaws and red flags, but for riot grrls and their fans, it’s all in good fun, or on the right side of identity politics (“ladies with guitars make me feel empowered”, etc.)?

the problem is that it’s hard to prevent the subjective experience of liking or not liking a particular band from becoming an “objective fact” about their talent, genius, importance, or whatever when discussing it with others. it doesn’t feel arbitrary - and it isn’t entirely.

i mean, i “know” that sleater-kinney sucks, just as i “know” that rush “deserves” to be among the best selling artists of all time, even as i also KNOW that “sales don’t mean anything” since the rolling stones sold tons of records too, and they are a travesty.

ugh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_music_artists#Artists_by_reputed_sales

objective criteria matter only to the degree that they support my argument for my band right now.  this is part of the appeal of the Argument from Technical Merit that arises so often amongst Dudes when discussing music.

plus, it’s also hard to remain conscious of the fact that no matter how personally meaningful certain music is to me, someone else can and likely will think “meh, it’s ok” or “that sucks” or “you’re joking, right?” 

but i take [amanda’s #49] point, which i think is a good one - Music Snobbery is Insufferable to the extent that people take their own taste in music too seriously, or better, objectively, as if there were some genuine accounting for taste. 

on the other hand, taking your own taste in music seriously is what it means to be a real Music Fan.  i think that’s why threads like this and the one that inspired it make people crazy. aesthetics has this strange epistemological status where we can freely and consciously admit that geddy lee’s voice is, well, weird, or that lair of the minotaur is not for everyone, but somewhere, deep down, we all also “know” we’re right and everyone who disagrees is kind of a moron. 

we love having all these conversations (“soundgarden is better than mudhoney because…”; “queens of the stone age lost everything that was great about kyuss when…”) as if they were conversations about facts, but they aren’t, and never will be.

and that sucks, because i love talking about thus stuff, but what, really, are we talking about then?

Comment #60: ochlocrat  on  04/16  at  03:32 PM

Rush? Seriously?

Comment #61: lonespark  on  04/16  at  03:34 PM

More importantly, far too often I feel convos like this are simply a chance for people to flash their “hipper-than-thou” credibility cards. Each list becomes more and more esoteric…until you’re fairly begging for someone to just admit they love the new Beyonce song. (Full disclosure, I DO love most Beyonce songs.)

Comment #62: Vacuumslayer  on  04/16  at  03:35 PM

I’d say it’s a stretch to say that she was calling all fans of Dude Music misogynists, especially since she explicitly said she was not.

She explicitly said that later, but not in the actual blog post that most people are reacting to, unless I missed something (and I just went back and re-read her post twice).

I think Dudes are actually the main reason Insufferable Music Snobs are hated.  Because non-dude IMSes I know have a playful attitude about it.  My friends will dog on someone’s taste in the same spirit that people dog on each others’ sports teams.  Or favorite superheroes or whatever.  We can all have a beer about it.  I post about music in that spirit, but it’s often taken as more serious than I mean it, and I blame Dudes.  They ruin it for the rest of us, who think of music snobbery as a rough sport, but just a game at the end of the day.

Yes!  But that’s precisely why her’s post rubbed me specifically the wrong way, because it too says that music she doesn’t like is bad and anti-woman and it’s easy to take from that the implication that people who like that music are also bad.  No matter what she said to qualify it later and try to make clear her real thoughts, that’s what she said in the actual blog post and that’s what has some people reacting negatively.

She doesn’t say that some fans are like that, or some dudes she know listen to the music because of that, or that she doesn’t like the music because it reminds her of those attitudes, all of which are things that I am right there with her on (generally speaking).  She says that the music itself:

—“prioritizes the status quo, that prioritize men’s voices, men’s experiences, and the experiences of people in power and who benefit from the current power structures in our society”
— “is made by men, for men to enjoy, for men to profit from”
—restricts women to the three roles “1) to serve as inspirations for songs; 2) to be sex objects who, hopefully, also make music men feel good about Their Art; 3) to be someone who is dangerously standing in the way of men acheiving greatness”

and then she concludes with “fuck you” to all the bands whose music she doesn’t like, which I took as an implication that she feels they are doing it on purpose (because, to my mind, why else say that?).  Go back and read her post.  That’s what it says.

Reading the other things she wrote, I get the impression that she was going for the snarky and irreverent style that Sady (and also Amanda Hess) use on Tiger Beatdown, so she didn’t write exactly what she thinks.  But I don’t think that that clicked for people not familiar with the blog, because it doesn’t seem like she wrote it in a style to make clear it was partly tongue-in-cheek (the way, for example, Sady does with the exclamation points and the catchphrase-quoting and so on).

So in the end this is all no big deal (I’m not sitting here fumingly angry or anything) but I’m trying to explain at least one perspective on why some people reacted badly to the post, since it seems to have Silvana and some other people perplexed, as though they skipped the last couple of paragraphs of her post or something.

Comment #63: neff  on  04/16  at  03:36 PM

Dustin—Oh god, the first Throwing Muses album from ‘86 is still one of the most gut-punchingly wild rollercoaster rides of a thing I’ve ever heard, and to think it was coming from some teenage girls trying to make sense of it all.  (Yeah I guess I tend to pre-judge teenagers as being a little dense so it impresses me when they come up with something like that.)  I was a little disappointed that not all of their albums were quite as out-there as the first one, although I liked a lot of the later stuff too —I think I saw a good live performance of “Counting Backwards” on YouTube somewhere, one of those songs off “The Real Ramona” that I thought was great quirky stuff.

Comment #64: neff  on  04/16  at  03:41 PM

I think it’s Rush’s changing time signatures that have landed them in the dock for privileged, entitled Dude Music (as well as their 1983 album “Power Structures”). Stereolab should be joining them as time-signature quislings and collaborators any moment now. My investigators are checking on whether Babes in Toyland slipped in an Ebdim7 chord into Handsome & Gretel, and our time-travel brigade has gone back to 1971 to destroy a shipment of Mellotrons and electric oboes bound for Brian Eno at the first Roxy Music rehearsals.

Comment #65: norbizness  on  04/16  at  03:44 PM

@Ferox

Sure, one can always debate whether something truly fits one genre or the other, and there will always be works that don’t fit comfortably in any one category. But in order to have that discussion everyone needs to be on relatively the same page on how to identify a classic, quintessential, textbook example of said genre based on objective criteria that can be observed by everyone. Otherwise you are simply playing a game of Calvinball where you can arbitrarily dismiss anything as “Dude Rock” or “Fag Music” because you personally think it sucks.

You say that there are “obviously” strictly objective requirements to Dude Rock. But other than your statement that the band can’t be all-female, I really haven’t seen any. I’m willing to believe they exist. But I’d like to know, specifically, what they are.

Comment #66: Amazing Larry  on  04/16  at  03:50 PM

C’mon Amanda, that’s silly and you know it. Whether or not a work of art is “good” is certainly a subjective judgment call. But do you really believe that there is no objective criteria for determining whether a work of art fits a particular style or genre?

Dude Music isn’t a genre.  That’s the problem.  It’s like porn, you know it when you see it.  It’s got this privileged, masculine energy and creates a safe space for overt sexism.  There’s your “objective” measurements, and please refrain from mansplaining at me.  “That’s silly and you know it” is a phrase used for social superiors to speak down to inferiors, say adults to children.

Everyone who is frustrated by Dude Music probably likes one band they know deep down inside is Dude Music.  Mine is Ween.

Comment #67: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/16  at  03:52 PM

Also, I’m disappointed no one’s really discussed rap/hip-hop at all.

Natch, I’ve heard this in rap a lot.  “Women can’t rap.  Good rap is too low pitched for their voices.”  Heard it, swear to god.

Comment #68: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/16  at  03:53 PM

I remember back in the day when a buddy of mine saw my New Order CD on the table by my stereo and said “Dude, you listen to that? Its fag-rock.”

Then I played “True Faith” and the remix of “Bizarre Love Triangle” and he went on for hours about what “a fucking flat-out jam” it was. He had never even heard them. Just heard OF them and based his opinion on what people TOLD him. “Dudes” can be so silly.

Yeah, it’s one of those endless, enervating things about the performance of masculinity—and I’m convinced that that the walking-on-eggshells fragility of masculine performance is at least 99% of where this all comes from.  You see indie rock dudes getting put off by the macho hierarchy stuff in organized sports (to take one oft-cited example) but they still feel like they have to police themselves and each other on whether the music has the right kind of cred for whatever scene they’ve gotten into—and that’s just what they do among themselves, before female fans even come into it.

Of course later they find out that the reason the bands that established the scene were so innovative in the first place is that they were often wide-open music fans who’d be listening to Lady Gaga or polka records or South African township music or whatever on the ride home from performing with their death metal band, rather than restricting themselves to the set of bands that all sound exactly like themselves the way their dudely fans often do.  (Speaking of manly metal, I remember one of the guys from Sepultura is like the world’s biggest Echo and the Bunnymen fan, and the guitarist from Alice in Chains is a big-time Elton John devotee.)

But also, get indie rock snobs drunk enough and they’ll accidentally admit to liking ABBA or Prince or Beyonce or whatever, and they’ll forget to pretend they only like it “ironically” (the way they have to in order to avoid fracturing the ever-fragile shell of masculinity when sober).

Comment #69: neff  on  04/16  at  03:54 PM

I think it’s Rush’s changing time signatures that have landed them in the dock for privileged, entitled Dude Music (as well as their 1983 album “Power Structures”).

I remember Rose from the Poster Children a long time ago trying to describe her band’s sound and she said something like “we play in odd time signatures a lot, but we like to think you can’t tell, you know, we don’t sound like Rush or anything”.

And it’s true, I remember I tried counting along with some of their songs on albums like “RTFM” and there really are some tunes on there that sound like the most straight-ahead pop rock song but there’s some crazy meter and rhythm going on underneath that they make sound so natural.

Comment #70: neff  on  04/16  at  03:57 PM

Because of the whole dude music conversation, I had to make a new Pandora channel for PvP.  Front-dudes, no matter how awesome I think they are, get shunted to different channels. Pandora still thinks that a preference for female vocalists means I want acoustic guitars and a preference for metal means I want Breaking Benjamin in everything. (WTF?)

Friday Pandora 10 Women being effing metal edition:
1. L7 - Wargasm
2. One-Eyed Doll - Black Forest
3. Metric - Help, I’m Alive
4. Plasmatics - Rock n Roll
5. Jack Killed Jill - You Don’t Own Me
6. Betty Blowtorch - Shut Up and Fuck
7. Concrete Blonde - They Sky is a Poisonous Garden
8. The Birthday Massacre - Looking Glass
9. Garbage - Shut Your Mouth
10. Kidneythieves - Before I’m Dead

It’s not that female vocalists make it automatically not dude music, but looking specifically for female vocalists tends to turn up more all-female bands. Recommendations I’ve gotten have led me towards goth “symphonic metal” like Nightwish, which I think is cool, but ya’ll would probably find cheesy.  “10th Man Down” is my new PvP anthem though.  For the Horde!

(I hope that link works right.)

Comment #71: Godless Heathen  on  04/16  at  03:58 PM

neff, for sure.  It’s pure masculinity policing, and I’d say Dude Music can be anything where the fans perceive that liking this band establishes their masculine bona fides enough that they don’t have to police as hard, and can exert more male dominance.

Comment #72: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/16  at  03:58 PM

Oh yeah, also, Axl Rose is famously a slobberingly devoted Pet Shop Boys fan.

Comment #73: neff  on  04/16  at  03:59 PM

She had to say that, or the Ministry of NotProg would have audited her master tapes.

Comment #74: norbizness  on  04/16  at  04:00 PM

OK, it’s interesting reading what folks think is “dude music.” I confess to loving Ween and liking (quite a bit) SOAD and Metallica (though I am a Jonny-come-lately fan).

It does bug me a little bit that there may be an assumption that women may not like “hard” music. I’ll never forget when my little brother was visiting me a few years back and said “nice devil music” in response to the songs I was playing. Sometimes music that is “hard” or “angry” can be a bit of a release for me, even though I’m a lady. Want to get pumped up for a work-out? You have to listen to Anthrax/Public Enemy version of “Bring Tha Noise.”

Amanda, people actually complain that women can’t RAP? Jesus. We just can’t win. Well, I guess they’ve never heard Eve…

Comment #75: Vacuumslayer  on  04/16  at  04:02 PM

prog rock is dudely music.  Much of heavy metal is, as well.

Prog rock == Overly pretentious rockers attempting to emulate the virtuosity and pomposity common among some classical musicians and much more so among their hardcore fans.  I almost feel I need to wear formal dinnerwear, have a glass of wine or two, and ready a plate of fancybread/crackers with Grade A++ caviar/pate the few times I felt like attempting to listen to an entire track….

Heavy metal == Though I can now see that, that description of metal still amuses me as my first impressions of heavy metal was watching a bunch of long haired White dudes dance around in brightly colored spandex outfits with guitars/bass/drums trying to play and sing/scream love songs on MTV at a neighbor’s apartment.  A reason I took great pleasure in annoying older male cousins by comparing their favored bands like Van Halen with boy bands like NKOTB….

And it is always, always the most whiny, boring, beatless downtempo emo “rock”: Radiohead would be, like, too aggressive. Mrs. F has to talk me down from sneaking in there and plugging in the B-52’s or something else fun.

I HATE downtempo depressive music like much of the emo I’ve heard.  Sounds like you friends would hate most of the songs I listen to on my Ipod as I tend to listen to uptempo, aggressive, loud, and energetic rock…..whether it comes from the sound, lyrics, or both. 

Then again, I did have several high school classmates complain that I only like to listen to “Happy music” in reference to bands like Green Day, Offspring, and the Cranberries for that very reason….

Comment #76: exholt  on  04/16  at  04:03 PM

Oh and also also plus I think any future posts on dude music should be tagged with this Married to the Sea comic.

Comment #77: neff  on  04/16  at  04:04 PM

“Oh yeah, also, Axl Rose is famously a slobberingly devoted Pet Shop Boys fan.”

Nao wai. For realz? Wow.

Comment #78: Vacuumslayer  on  04/16  at  04:06 PM

There are large swaths of the music scene which are sausage fests, so I know that this attitude is out there.

Fortunately, I haven’t run into it a whole lot personally. Probably because of the company I keep.

Comment #79: maatnofret  on  04/16  at  04:07 PM

@lonespark:  seriously.

@norbizness: i think you mean “power windows”.  and why can’t a band change time signatures?  if that makes it music for musicians (plausibly), musicians can’t make music for themselves?  what do you think jazz is?

i’d like to take issue with one more thing about how “dude music” is defined.

according to [silvana’s post]:

—“is made by men, for men to enjoy, for men to profit from”

i don’t see what’s wrong with this. also, i’d drop “profit” since plenty of bands make quirky music not many people like (some do so, and achieve unexpected population, e.g., rush. many don’t).

—restricts women to the three roles “1) to serve as inspirations for songs; 2) to be sex objects who, hopefully, also make music men feel good about Their Art; 3) to be someone who is dangerously standing in the way of men acheiving greatness”

i think clarification is in order.  there is certainly some music which is mostly made by (i.e. men make it) and liked by (whether the musicians like it or not) “dudes”.

neff’s [#12] point about nerd music was a useful one.  dude music, sub specie Nerd, might get played to a mostly male audience, but who cares? as women close the gap on nerdery/geekery/dorkery whatever, this will probably change.  but silvana’s list above doesn’t really apply, because the subject matter of nerd music seems not to take much inspiration from women because the music is an alternative to love songs and the like (1), can’t make men feel good about their Art since few women like it (e.g., most metal, excluding hair-metal; 2).

(3) isn’t worth addressing, since the familiar examples (yoko ono, nancy) are, as far as i can recall, the only examples. 

a better criticism might be that women don’t feature in a large swaths of “dude music” in any way, which could be considered a form of exclusion, i suppose. i still feel that there’s a great deal of self-selection (i.e., opting out) involved on the part of women, too.  some people failed to be inspired by geddy lee - i know it seems crazy, but it’s true.

i’d happily call music that fits silvana’s tripartite definition as “douche music.”  let’s stipulate that nickelback’s “figured you out” is the canonical example, and start from there.

Comment #80: ochlocrat  on  04/16  at  04:20 PM

For another example of what I was mentioning with young girls increasingly being rock technique obsessives too, here’s a 17-year-old Thai girl playing the drum part to some System of a Down song, doing some angry drum solo after her iPod broke, and giving some advice on kick drum technique (I found these when looking for drum instructional videos):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ggkDUm0daQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSd8mIkX71s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-exmeQPOTU

Comment #81: neff  on  04/16  at  04:28 PM

More on that topic…I know Orianthe makes pretty mainstream, somewhat mediocre music (what little I’ve heard) but, my god, her guitar playing will just melt your fucking face off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKHthNMoMzA

FGS, don’t read the comments by all the jealous little boys.

Comment #82: Vacuumslayer  on  04/16  at  04:33 PM

neff, she’s AMAZING!!!! Wow! Badass!

Comment #83: Vacuumslayer  on  04/16  at  04:36 PM

All I know is I ain’t gonna be the one to tell Tara Jane O’Neil that non-standard time structures (or alternate tunings, dissonance, etc. etc.) make her stuff ‘dude-rock’.

Nor Kim Gordon for that matter.

I wonder, does musical virtuosity - or, at least, experimentation - in rock inspired genres instantly jump from prog-rock/post-rock to no-wave/math-rock if a girl gets involved?

Comment #84: Sarcastro  on  04/16  at  04:45 PM

Another interesting case is Angela Gossow, a German-born metalhead who showed the world that women can also do growling death-metal vocals (the kind the rest of us jokingly refer to as “Cookie Monster vocals”) after she joined the Swedish band Arch Enemy a few years ago—she replaced a male vocalist because she could Cookie Monster at least as well as him.  Here’s a youtube clip, and an interview with her talking about her metalheadery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZM-d2qD15E&a=mr4fBzy5VLE&playnext_from=ML
http://www.avclub.com/articles/angela-gossow-of-arch-enemy,37766/

Here’s a handy video for other women who are also interested in singing like Cookie Monster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdjoK8D6DwI

Comment #85: neff  on  04/16  at  04:45 PM

Amanda, I don’t post much, but you’re my favorite writer and I’m here multiple times a day.  Some of your music posts bother me though.  This vendetta against technical music is just odd.  Maybe I’m a little biased because I have two orchestral performance degrees, but I can’t listen to music that shows obvious technical deficiencies (like the sloppy playing in the Sleater-Kinney video).  It’s just distracting.  The development of Western music pushed continuously to the more complex and technical because it elicits an emotional response.  There are always periods of return to simplicity, but the general thrust is forward.  That doesn’t mean that all technical music is good (by a long shot).  I can’t stand Rush, prog rock, most metal for the same reasons I can’t stand synthy dance pop rock…it just sounds cheesy to me.  Most of the “noodly” bands also suck, but not because drawn out improv sucks, but because it’s rarely done well.  My favorite rock music is able to combine technical mastery, raw emotion (honestly, if you don’t have technical mastery it’s pretty hard to convey everything you want so I don’t buy into the idea that technique can be secondary to emotion), and stimulating development.  That unfortunately means not much beyond Jimi, early Allman Brothers (with Duane), and later Miles Davis (Bitches Brew, Jack Johnson).  Based on a lot of what you’ve written you would call me sexist for that list, but please tell me some analogous female musicians.

I actually listen to more orchestral music than rock at this point (with the exception of the stoner rock that my girlfriend is always playing around the house) and currently listening to Jane Baker sing the Mahler Kindertotenlieder.

Anyway, the point of this wasn’t to make my case that I’m an exception or even that your broader point isn’t valid (I have to convince my female private trumpet students that they have as much right to be playing solos in band as their male peers), but that when you get into talking about specific musical sounds as somehow having a political agenda you’re just wrong.  I’m homophobic because I don’t want to listen to cheesy synth pop?  I’d rather watch gay porn than be subjected to that.

Comment #86: jpellett  on  04/16  at  04:49 PM

otep shamaya.

Comment #87: ochlocrat  on  04/16  at  04:51 PM

(3) isn’t worth addressing, since the familiar examples (yoko ono, nancy) are, as far as i can recall, the only examples. 
I’ve heard guys say this about Ihsahn and Ihriel.  Does that count?

Comment #88: Stained Class  on  04/16  at  04:54 PM

I have no idea what is meant by dude music, but does that really matter?  I accept that there’s a group of people here who have something in mind and are discussing it and not it and what it and not it mean.  I don’t need to make multiple comments arguing about it while asking for a clear definition.  My not understanding the term does not add to the conversation.

That said…


I like this random ten idea a lot:

1)  Sons & Daughters - “Gone”
2)  The Juliet Dagger - “Leave Me Alone”
3)  Le Tigre - “This Island”
4)  Birdy - “Hold You Tonight”
5)  Dengue Fever - “Escape From Dragon House”
6)  Elastica - “Line Up”
7)  Chumbawamba - “Pass It Along”
8)  Chumbawamba - “The Physical Impossibility Of Death In the Mind Of Jerry Springer”
9)  Neko Case - “Lion’s Jaws”
10) Be Your Own Pet - “Bummer Time”
Bonus because they were too good to omit and nobody has ever heard of them…
11) Aquanettas - “Beach Party”

Seriously, hunt down the “Love With The Proper Stranger” CD that the Aquanettas did.  I wish I’d been able to listen to them at the time.

Comment #89: Jake Squid  on  04/16  at  04:55 PM

I should add that when I talked about the sloppy playing in the Sleater-Kinney video I wasn’t trying to make a broad statement about females not being able to play music technically.  I’ve heard many female guitar technical wizards, did my Masters with a female trumpet teacher (sexism in the brass world is probably as bad as in the rock world), and refer at least as many females for trumpet gigs as males.

Comment #90: jpellett  on  04/16  at  04:57 PM

I don’t have a vendetta.  I think people WAY overread this stuff, and I’m not sure what to do about the oversensitivity problem.  You really can’t write around oversensitivity.  It’s like another language to me, honestly.  With music especially, people are eager to comb through my posts and others with a fine tooth comb, find something vaguely offensive, blow it way out of proportion, and then demand answers.  I have no idea what to do with that.  I didn’t say it was wrong to be a good technical musician.  The point was that Dude Rock often uses technical musicianship as a weapon, in part because it’s mistakenly believed that women will never be that good.  And when you use it as a weapon to build walls based on masculinity-not-femininity, it’s BORING.

Comment #91: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/16  at  04:57 PM

#85, I was thinking about Angela Gossow right before you posted that.  I used to hang out on the Halford board a lot, and the sexist comments posted about her were appalling.

Comment #92: Stained Class  on  04/16  at  04:59 PM

Amanda Marcotte claims all her readers are oversensitive and blow anything she says, no matter how vile and offensive, “out of proportion.”

Film at 11.

Comment #93: Ferox  on  04/16  at  04:59 PM

Man, I’m a typical dude.  It was a stretch to come up with 10 songs off my work computer’s music library with female vocalists.  It took some searching around to avoid using the same band twice.

1.  Polar Nettles – Neko Case
2.  That’s Not My Name – The Ting Tings
3.  Lebanese Blonde – Thievery Corporation
4.  In the Waiting Line – Zero 7
5.  Veinte Años - Omara Portuondo
6.  Faster Kill Pussycat – Oakenfold featuring Brittany Murphy
7.  Fuck You – Lily Allen
8.  Isn’t It a Lovely Night – The Decembrists
9.  Get Big – Okkervil River
10.  Paper Planes – M.I.A.

Comment #94: Wallace  on  04/16  at  05:15 PM

Dude Rock is defined more by the fans than the band, right?

Comment #95: lonespark  on  04/16  at  05:16 PM

(honestly, if you don’t have technical mastery it’s pretty hard to convey everything you want so I don’t buy into the idea that technique can be secondary to emotion)

I pretty thoroughly disagree with this, since the process of making music (any art) isn’t as formulaic as you are implying. No matter how skilled you are technically, what you are trying to convey and what gets conveyed isn’t always going to be the same, and it is always going to vary from person to person.

I’m not trying to say that technique (which is sort of a loaded term, but whatever) prevents emotion; they are independent (in the mathematical sense, so you can have one, both, or neither.)

Comment #96: Tree  on  04/16  at  05:26 PM

Alas, I don’t pay enough attention to music-makers to know which are insufferable and which are not, and it often disappoints me to find out that some are (like the ICP last week, what was with that?)  Not that I personally like each example, but some have other sounds, behaviors, or my friend likes them so I like to encourage hearing different sounds.

I certainly find the lack of women in technical music annoying; but I didn’t know what to assign it to than general culture bias not leading to those careers.  Besides, I listen for the music being good, I don’t always know the names.  Having fun while making it is a second thing I listen for.  As for rap, some of the best I’ve heard was from women singers.

Also… Cats!  Names!  I don’t know your cats by heart, introduce us with these cute photos ^-^

Comment #97: Crissa  on  04/16  at  05:28 PM

Balls.  I went to do the Genius thing, which I’ve never done before, and it says I need an iTunes account?  Pssh.

Screw it!  I’m a genius!  (and no one here knows me well enough to dispute that, thank god)  So I’ll make my own list.  (Which is why it’s alphabetical.)

“Mulder and Scully”- Catatonia
“Queen For A Day”- Dance Hall Crashers
“Seneca Falls”- The Distillers
“Too Fast For Love”- The Donnas
“Stutter”- Elastica
“Sleep Together”- Garbage
“Violet”- Hole (Courtney Love may have lost her shit, but this is a great song)
“Cuming into my own”- Lunachicks
“Old School Pig”- Tilt
“Awesome”- Veruca Salt

I have no Sleater-Kinney!  I duly apologize for the error of my ways.

Comment #99: Spiffy McBang  on  04/16  at  05:51 PM

One thing I’ve learned from talking to several experienced musicians (most male) is that the best way to evaluate if a band is worth a musician’s time is if their are women in the audience. If every show is a sausage fest, the band will not be successful more than briefly. Thus far I’ve seen little evidence that this is not true.

@jpellett In Rock and Rolll, and particularly punk rock and music influenced by it, a certain looseness, especially in terms of time, is expected. This is often accomplished by having guitars play a little behind or a little ahead of the beat. A lot of classic punk rock takes this to extremes, with the band sounding like it is on the verge of losing time completely the whole way through. I can assure you that this is a deliberate, artistic choice. There are numerous other little technical tricks to making a guitar part fit within the idiom, all of which might be described as sounding “sloppy” but are actually techniques that, while not necessarily challenging, a skilled guitarist uses deliberately. While you’re welcome to not like it if it isn’t your cup of tea, it is not “sloppy playing.” It is part of the idiom. Punk Rock with flashy guitar playing and a band that’s so in time it sounds like they use a click track just doesn’t sound like punk rock.

Comment #100: HonestB  on  04/16  at  05:52 PM

“The point was that Dude Rock often uses technical musicianship as a weapon, in part because it’s mistakenly believed that women will never be that good.  And when you use it as a weapon to build walls based on masculinity-not-femininity, it’s BORING.”
Just to be clear, I wasn’t offended, I just disagreed with some of your assessment of music itself.  Yes, technique for the sake of technique is boring.  How much music is actually played with the goal in mind to build walls based on masculinity?  I would guess far less than that is used in talking about music.  I hear a lot of stoner rock because it’s all my girlfriend listens to.  You say stoner rock is the classic example of stoner rock, but pivotal early stoner rock band Eleven was fronted by a woman, a woman was part of two of the most important stoner rock projects, QOTSA and the Desert Sessions, and QOTSA leader Josh Homme is married to Spinnerette and Distillers leader Brody Dalle.  For being a sexist genre the leading groups seem to not have a problem with women musicians.  Like I said, the people who talk about the music may be different (I don’t pay attention).

And I can’t help reading a lot into what you say about music…I’ve written long papers on the meaning of John Cage’s 4’33”, relationships between French symbolist poetry and impressionist music, etc.  I think what you see as people being overly sensitive might just be people thinking it’s an interesting topic to talk about.

Comment #101: jpellett  on  04/16  at  05:55 PM

Just saw this:

Natch, I’ve heard this in rap a lot.  “Women can’t rap.  Good rap is too low pitched for their voices.” Heard it, swear to god.

If anyone says this in the future, ask them how, if that’s true, Flava Flav managed to have any kind of career.

Comment #102: Spiffy McBang  on  04/16  at  05:59 PM

I get long winded sometimes and I point gets lost.  I’m just saying that I don’t think a lot of music is played for the sake of being sexist or setting up walls.  I completely agree that technique and the various other things you talk about are used when talking about the music to set up walls, but I don’t think the sexism comes from the music itself most of the time.

Comment #103: jpellett  on  04/16  at  06:00 PM

@Tree: I could be more clear.  When I say that you need technical mastery I don’t mean to say that you need to be playing highly technical music, I’m saying that you need to have enough technical ability to execute whatever you want to play.  That doesn’t mean that the music is necessarily bad if you’re not at that level, but you’re also not playing exactly what you want.  Technical mastery at whatever level is necessary to play what you want is liberating, not constricting.

Comment #105: jpellett  on  04/16  at  06:38 PM

I know very little about rock.  There sure is a lot of dude country, though.

Comment #106: lonespark  on  04/16  at  06:41 PM

@HonestB: I’m not complaining about messing around with the time.  I’ve spent years playing in rock (even punk), jazz, and salsa bands and they all have their own way of messing around with the time.  My main problem with this guitar player is that she’s painfully out of tune.

Comment #107: jpellett  on  04/16  at  06:46 PM

Prog rock == Overly pretentious rockers attempting to emulate the virtuosity and pomposity common among some classical musicians and much more so among their hardcore fans.  I almost feel I need to wear formal dinnerwear, have a glass of wine or two, and ready a plate of fancybread/crackers with Grade A++ caviar/pate the few times I felt like attempting to listen to an entire track….

Prog rock gets a lot of grief for being “overly pretentious”, moreso than other subgenres, because it borrows from classical music a lot.  I don’t think classical music is by definition pretentious; furthermore, I think a lot of “unpretentious” music is, ironically, very pretentious as articulated by its fans, as if such music has a monopoly on authenticity or fun or whatever.  Kinda like the religious missionaries who don’t just dress modestly, but rather MODESTLY so you know they’re not sluts or anything like that.

Comment #108: Linnaeus  on  04/16  at  07:46 PM

Dude Music isn’t a genre.  That’s the problem.  It’s like porn, you know it when you see it.

Well that’s convenient. I guess I’ll just have to take your word that Dude Music is a legitimate, useful term and not just a smug, reductive insult like Fag Music. I only wish I had your amazing powers of perception so that I too could immediately recognize that the band that wrote “Under My Thumb” isn’t actually Dude Rock because their lead singer “sings like a girl.” Clearly I still have much to learn.

...and please refrain from mansplaining at me.  “That’s silly and you know it” is a phrase used for social superiors to speak down to inferiors, say adults to children.

Yeah, well… when you casually dismiss my questions as “noodling and nit-picking in order to miss the point” and condescendingly tell me that I will never “get it” because I use the word objective when discussing art, I tend to get a bit snippy. Treating people like adults is a two-way street, Amanda.

The bottom-line is that I agree 100% with the main thrust of your post, and anyone who dismisses a band or genre for being too “girly” is no friend of mine. But I really think you weaken your argument when you use a vague, suggestive term like Dude Rock to sneer at bands you find offensive as if it were a universal term we can all understand and accept. If you want that to be the case, you’ll have to give a better definition than just saying you know it when you see it.

Comment #109: Amazing Larry  on  04/16  at  07:59 PM

As long as we’re on this topic, maybe we should discuss why it is that so many progressive enlightened white/asian people seem to think it’s edgy and radical to love a genre of music that has even fewer African-Americans than country music.

If we’re talking about why “Asian people” like rock, this depends on what we’re really talking about.

If Asian/Asian-Americans from suburbia or urban neighborhoods with similar youth musical culture, that’s probably because that’s what all of their classmates/friends listened to growing up and is a “cool” way to rebel against the norms of their parents….though this is much more so if the parents are immigrants and hate music beyond the music they grew up with back in their countries of origin.  Then again, I know far more Asian/Asian-Americans who are fans of pop/dance music and rap/hip-hop than rock…so YMMV….

If Asian/Asian-Americans who grew up in a given “Asiantown” and/or they are in frequent contact with their family’s ancestral culture through travel and/or with recent immigrants, a strong possibility may be their becoming fed up with the overwhelming prevalent dominance of love ballads and syrupy pop/dance music…sometimes with a hip-hop beat in their home countries. 

Such types of music are wildly popular in East Asian countries…..just look at what’s dominating the charts in South Korea, Japan, or the Chinese speaking regions.  With the possible exception of Japan, rock music seldom dominates their equivalent of the Top-40 or their popular musical culture to the same extent it does here in the US. 

In the Chinese context, especially on the mainland, liking and playing rock music IS also considered somewhat EDGY AND SUBVERSIVE.  A large part of this was its history of being considered politically suspect during the Maoist period along with how rock music played a part in the Tienanmen Square demonstrations which caused the government to ban the playing of rock music and public performance by many prominent Chinese rockers like Cui Jian for several years. 

Though there has been been an underground movement and even a recent resurgence of Chinese rock during this decade, being a fan of rock does mark you as being subversive and nonconformist with all of its attendant stigma from the larger conformist society at large…especially when the vast majority of the more conformist youth are listening to apolitical love ballads*, syrupy pop/dance music, and their interpretations of hip-hop/rap…..the very musical genres which tend to get the green light from bureaucratic censors than rock music. 

* Disclosure: I happen to be a fan of some of those love ballads and even happen to own a few CDs….

Comment #110: exholt  on  04/16  at  09:07 PM

my ten is random.

1. “The Fame” - Lady GaGa
2. “Please Don’t Leave Me” - P!nk
3. “Everybody” - VV Brown http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GkKahJOCRs
4. “I Am Not My Hair” - india.arie + p!nk
5. “I Live Alone with Someone” - Carolyn Wonderland http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FrU0VcqFmg
6. “Northeastern” - The Soldier Thread http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RTHoNsVMNI
7. “Turpentine” - Brandi Carlile
8. “Speechless” - Lady GaGa
9. “Pearl’s Dream” - Bat for Lashes
10. “Yr Mangled Heart” - The Gossip

Comment #111: chibi  on  04/16  at  09:43 PM

Not random ten plus bonus transgender #11:

1.  Piss Factory, Patti Smith
2.  Cornflake Girls, Tori Amos
3.  Is that all there is?, Peggy Lee
4.  The Perfect Me, Deerhoof
5.  Carla Bley, Dock Sucking Supreme
6.  Get Ur Freak On, Missy Elliott
7.  Lonely Woman, Diamanda Galas
8.  Summertime, Janis Joplin
9.  Size Queen, Betty Blowtorch
10.  Know Your Chicken, Cibo Matto
11.  Switched-On Bach, Wendy Carlos

Comment #112: oldfeminist  on  04/16  at  09:49 PM

As an addendum to talking about the hipsters and their Dude Music, one of the most amusing things about going to parties where there’s a butt-sniffing contest as to which is the alphaest male hipster and therefore gets control of the stereo is that females are allowed absolutely nowhere near the stereo. Even the hipster females, who always change the baby BTW, won’t even think about approaching it or talking about music other than to echo their boyfriend’s pronouncements.

This is true even w/r/t my wife, who was a minor-league all-star in her genre and day. She’s recorded seven full-length albums, toured the US and Canada, was involved the production and songwriting and every other damn thing. Seriously, if you knew the subgenre you’d know who she was. But will the hipster males even give her the time of day? Are you kidding? She’s got a Vagina. They’ll ask me questions and I’m like “all I listen to is bubblegum pop…”

Comment #113: felagund  on  04/16  at  09:54 PM

Chibi, I love “I am Not my Hair”

Comment #114: Vacuumslayer  on  04/16  at  10:47 PM

As good as the Pace brothers are, Kazu definitely seems like the focus of Blonde Redhead, so…

Genius List based on: Oh James - Blonde Redhead

1. Sealed with a Kiss - Deerhoof
2. The Coat is always On - Cat Power
3. Hoarfrost - Sonic Youth
4. December - Unwound
5. So Many Animal Calls - Q and Not U
6. Disposable Parts - Enon
7. Little Pand McElroy (B) - Xiu Xiu
8. Pet Eunuch - Clinic
9. Homage - ...And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead
10. The Noise of the Carpet - Stereolab

As always, what strikes me is that I need more music.

Comment #115: inkybrain  on  04/16  at  10:55 PM

Oh yeah, if you want a woman in duderock, try Tal Wilkenfeld.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIFFRHBCPzA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV7OAWs2Q30&feature=related

Comment #116: oldfeminist  on  04/16  at  11:09 PM

I’m a physics grad student and, strange as it may sound, we actually don’t have a great idea of how magnets work.  Yeah, it’s better than “it’s magic”, but magnetism is a pretty damn hard problem.

Comment #117: genesic  on  04/17  at  12:35 AM

You know, I almost never listen to the music you post here since I’m not a music wonk, but I’ve been missing out. Sleater-Kinney (and Le Tigre even moreso) have got themselves a new fan.

Comment #118: Peaches  on  04/17  at  01:52 AM

There is something about Rush that pisses off some of the dude rockers that I’ve run across.  All you have to do is go to a concert to see they are Dude Rock but I suspect they are seen as somewhat intellectual and you know what that means.  Nevermind their Libertarian streak which I try to ignore, I’ve also run across Rush fans who can’t stop talking about Ayn Rand, I don’t know which is worse.  Either way, neither seems to be there for the music.

Comment #119: ewellone  on  04/17  at  05:14 AM

Are we allowed to include bands fronted by women, but which have d00ds in them? If so, I give you X-Ray Spex:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue5jyj_nosc

The black cat looks very pensive!

Comment #120: PhysioProf  on  04/17  at  08:30 AM

I don’t need to make multiple comments arguing about it while asking for a clear definition.  My not understanding the term does not add to the conversation.

But dude, how are you gonna WIN THE DEBATE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Comment #121: PhysioProf  on  04/17  at  08:41 AM

This is pretty simple in some ways, it comes down to not wanting to hear women’s voices more often than necessary for a lot of people (there are women who say the “I don’t like to hear women sing” thing too).

Remember that story about how men actually talk and gossip more than women, but there’s a perception particularly among men that women talk all the time, and more than men do? Because some men notice and are bothered by hearing a lot of talk from women, and some apparently associate it with nagging, it becomes “Women talk and nag all the time.”

Comment #122: annejumps  on  04/17  at  10:18 AM

amanda, if you need someone else’s permission (silvana’s post) to say you don’t like something (dude music, however the fuck you define it) and that you’re not stupid for doing so, says far more about you, then it does the music, or the “Dudes” that like it. with apologies to bill, the problem would be not in the “Dudes” and their music, but in yourself.

memo to amanda: the great thing about america, you’re free to like or not, any damn thing you please. you don’t need anyone’s permission to do so. further, only you can allow yourself to be made to feel stupid. granted, others may try, but ultimately, you have to give them permission to be successful at it.

so, um, why would you?

Comment #123: cpinva  on  04/18  at  12:57 PM

cpinva, since when is explaining or supporting one’s view equivalent to needing someone else’s permission to have an opinion?  I am pretty sure Amanda doesn’t look for permission for her opinions anwhere. 

If you’re envisioning some backchannel communication where Amanda begs Silvana to support her, and Silvana complies, well, your imagination is better than most.  Or maybe not, if you think women can’t have opinions without the support of others.

And then hey, we’ve come full-circle.  You’re presuming that which you wish to prove.

Comment #124: oldfeminist  on  04/19  at  02:21 PM
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