I am in favor of the calories being there. As a 20-something, overweight, male I’m pretty sure they’ll actually be a significant underestimate.  I think it’s good to get people thinking about opportunities for incidental exercise since it is so beneficial. I can only see it being a problem if someone is extreme in their calorie counting. I think most people would just leave those as unaccounted for bonuses in their calorie counts. And, if someone was that extreme about calorie counting, they’d have to deal with poor estimates all over the place anyway.

Before the 80s—when i was still living in Pacific Palisades, going to grad school and working at the beach as a lifeguard—i ran everywhere.  It was a six mile run to UCLA and a five mile run to my LFGD tower.  Running was easier than driving, because of the congestion on PCH, Sunset, San Vicente, and Bundy (and many others).  I also was in really excellent shape, and rain or shine, i ran all the time. 

Over the last six years or so, i have lived on the edge of downtown Spokane in a late 1800s addition tract; i don’t own a car, use the public bus, and walk a lot.  I am not in excellent shape.  Maybe if i ran all over i could get in better shape, but i am old and running sucks.  I walk and ride the bus everyday, and i don’t really notice a difference between walking and bus riding.  My metabolism stays the same.  Yes, i would need a great deal more research on this topic. 

Here in Spokane we have a very active group called Complete Streets Spokane.  We promote safer healthier streets and public spaces.
(http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_143275032410557)

Coincidentally, my list starts with the 80s, and brings to mind another game people can play if they’re so inclined:

(1) Be Near Me by ABC // (2) The Cry of Eugene by The Nice // (3) Getting Me Down by The Rezillos // (4) Glide by Candi and the Strangers // (5) Inside Straight by The Dirty Dozen Brass Band // (6) I Can’t Believe by Jimmy Rogers // (7) Shambala by Three Dog Night // (8) Care of Cell #44 by Matthew Sweet and Susanna Hoffs (who have something like four albums of cover songs) // (9) Sweet Potato Blues by Lonnie Johnson // (10) I Need Lunch by The Dead Boys.

The game is easy: Martin Fry is the poor man’s Bryan Ferry. And I think Lady Gaga is definitely recycling some some of that Dale Bozzio look, if only hybridized with that shopping cart lady I used to see in Republic Park.

Some other walking themed songs:

“Walking to New Orleans” - Fats Domino
“Walk the Line” - Johnny Cash
“Rocky Road to Dublin” - The Dubliners

“I found a great televised live version where the lead singer of Missing Persons has one of those outfits that really demonstrate why the over-the-top fashion outbreak of the 80s was a good thing for humanity. I want her hair.”

That would be Dale Bozio, who was famous for rocking the plexiglas bra, often with much less leather/vinyl/tape strategically placed.  I remember reading an LA Times interview with the band back in the day.  Fun/crazy, but not really that far out for the 80’s.  She was here in SoCal with a reformed Missing Persons (not sure how many other original members) within the last year or so, as part of a “Jack FM” 80’s bands concert deal.  (I forget who the other bands were.)

In my mind, I always connect Missing Persons with the movie Blade Runner, although there is no actual connection between them except the era they came from.  Similar fashion sense?...

You’re thinking of the time a coked-out Harrison Ford took a shot at her during the 1983 US Festival.

Dig it.  This the first of Amanda’s FRTs in which I also have all of the songs in her list.  Here’s mine (going with the 80s theme):

1. “Rio”, Duran Duran
2.  “Don’t You Want Me”, The Human League
3.  “Hold Me Now”, Thompson Twins
4.  “The Look Of Love”, ABC
5.  “West End Girls”, Pet Shop Boys
6.  “Just Can’t Get Enough”, Depeche Mode
7.  “One Thing Leads To Another”, The Fixx
8.  “Let’s Dance”, David Bowie
9.  “It’s My Life”, Talk Talk
10.  “A Little Respect”, Erasure

The calorie info can be kinda depressing on the machines at the gym (well, at least the treadmill—the elliptical calorie counter makes me feel awesome)...though the newness of calorie counters has kind of worn away with time, so perhaps the HopStop calorie app will be like a new shiny toy at first and then just kinda be background noise thereafter, like with the gym equipment. I go to the gym to get/stay healthy and I’m more concerned with distance/time than calories burned (since I do know that its only an estimate—& prolly an overestimate as I’m 5’2’’ and female). Similarly, if you are trying to integrate incremental movement in with your transportation plan, the calories are just part of that equation. I do think that when it smacks you in the face that 1 mile at a leisurely pace is only 100 calories—well, its harder to tell yourself “I deserve a scone since I walked to Starbucks” (especially when you have the menu info available on your phone that that scone is 600 calories!!!)...Yummm, scones, sorry I’m back…One other thing—information is good, but I do fear that the more we get plugged into the data and away from how we feel, more obsessive eating/body-hating disorders will mainstream. For example, those BodyBugs on The Biggest Loser, that tells you how much you burned throughout the day, mileage, steps, hours slept, etc.—that could get obsessive real quick and I don’t see its real utility beyond, say, clinical trials vs self-reported data. Anybody here have one of those expensive self-monitors? What’s your experience?

Do they include altitude in the calculation?  Because Google Maps for example will show the shortest walking path even if it involves going up and then down a huge hill, where most people take a few extra steps and go around the hill.  Going up a hill is more calories and there should be an option for flatter walks since not everyone can handle hills comfortably.

And does it take into consideration where there are sidewalks, and where crossing is allowed and not allowed?  Again, in my city, there are some crossings that are marked and well-controlled, others that have no crosswalk and you’re not even supposed to use them, and of course in the suburbs areas where there’s no sidewalk at all and you’re in danger just walking.

I think putting in the calories is more of a gimmick, but if it gets more people to walk, that’s okay.

There should be a conversion factor based on ones’ pace,  based on a level terrain with another factor for the steepness of the path walked, and one’s weight, since you’d be burning more calories the heavier your mass is.

Going up a hill is more calories and there should be an option for flatter walks since not everyone can handle hills comfortably.

Actually the best way to handle them at first is to walk backwards upwards, since that uses the muscles in the back of the legs which can better bear the load than the anterior leg muscles can when one walks forward uphill.

Like Amanda, I’m a fan of incidental exercise, but the calorie count wouldn’t sway me one way or another. I just function under a “more walking is better” rule within reason given my shoes/outfit, the weather, and how much stuff I need to carry. If the calories draw people’s attention to the general rule that walking is good, then it can’t hurt.

Bad, bad, bad idea.  Pushing calorie obsession on us is not healthy.  My girlfriend is recovering from anorexia and this sort of thing is very triggering to her.  From a personal perspective, I don’t understand why anyone would need extra bribery (so to speak) to do walking.  I do walking every day (when my anxiety isn’t getting the best of me that is) and I feel so much better afterwards.  I can think more clearly, it relieves stress, movies and books are more enjoyable.  It makes you feel better to walk on a regular basis.  I’ve never needed a number to tell me that, and I think it’s dangerous to get overly obsessive about such things.

Not trying to subvert Amanda’s theme, but what I think would fit in sonically is Gary Numan’s In Cars. Also The Cars’ Moving in Stereo (hey at least we’re moving).

I think at least 40% of the Ramones’ catalog is songs that start with the phrase “I don’t wanna”

I think it really helps if you’re moving to a city with good public transit from someplace where you drove everywhere - it makes you realize, “Hey, if I walk these four blocks and back on the return trip, I can go to the gym less often!”

I do think there should be an option to turn off the calorie count, as well as a way to modify it for individuals.

It sounds like bullshit to me.  The number of calories burned walking a particular distance is going to vary a great deal from person to person.

“Wall of Voodoo (one of those great underrated bands)”

Only by you young whippersnappers! 

Pushing calorie obsession on us is not healthy.

Yeah, my take on it is there are people who are actively harmed by the constant reminders that </i>oh yeah, I should be thinking about calories, oh yeah, I should be thinking about calories, oh yeah, I should be thinking about calories.</i>

Whereas, no one is harmed by having to look up “Oh yeah, for the average person, walking 3.5 miles equals X calories” if they want to know.

For the same reason I hate it when restaurants put the calorie count next to the food on the menu (especially for kids! ), because I think the information can be make available for people who actually want it without pushing it in the faces of people who might be harmed by it. For instance, mandating that restaurants have easily accessible brochures with all nutrition information, and penalizing them if the brochures are missing, unstocked, not easily accessible etc.

More info is generally better, so I don’t particularly object to adding “calories burned.”  I agree with kristin and alicefairy’s general dissent from calorie-culture, but it seems reasonable enough to present it as an option here.

Strictly on a personal, aesthetic level, I sort of hate it though.  Like with bicycling, I feel like walking is a good thing for so many reasons—among them, less traffic on the road, less pollution, more people meeting and interacting, more opportunities to patronize “foot traffic” establishments, and yes, health benefits—so I hate it when the exercise fanatics come in and try to totally own it.

****
@Comment #5: MikeEss on 05/06 at 10:23 AM: Having only known them through their MTV hits, I was really amazed when I realized that the core of Missing Persons (Dale Bozio and Warren Cuccurullo) were in Frank Zappa’s band. Cuccurullo even gets called out by name in “Catholic Girls.”

I am not sure that this Ap would be a good motivator to walk. It takes a lot of walking to add up to a visually significant number of calories. If anything it may make people think twice about eating a 2.5 mile candybar, but calorie count for things like walking and biking usually just discourage me. It will also low-ball calorie counts for heavier people, perhaps exaserbating the discouragement. I think a pedometer is a better option because it at least sums the total of your daily incedental walking.

It’s actually Dale’s husband Terry Bozio what was in Zappa’s band (not to say Dale didn’t sing vocals or something). He played drums, I’m pretty sure, and his name is heard during a live track band introduction on Sheik Yer Booty.

Yeah, Alysia, I think it may be as likely to discourage people from walking as to encourage them. If someone frames walking as primarily a way to burn calories, after they sweat and wear themselves out taking a long walk they may well look at the number and go wtf, it’s only x calories! Well that completely wasn’t worth it! It didn’t even burn the calories in one scone!

I walk a mile 5 days a week and I really value it because it makes me feel better, it gets me out of the house no matter what, and I get to see what’s going on in my neighborhood. It completely would not be worth it to me for the, I’m sure, fairly measly amount of calories it actually burns.

“Stand and Deliver” is Adam and THE Ants, I’ll have you know.

Those of us who had to put up with ‘80’s music when it actually came out know these things.

Warren Cuccurullo to me has always been “that guy from Missing Persons that thought he could be in Duran Duran.”

I think at least 40% of the Ramones’ catalog is songs that start with the phrase “I don’t wanna”

I have a What would Joey Ramone do? sticker on the back of my car. It’s a simple philosophy. Your options are: a) Be sedated, b) Be your boyfriend, c) Sniff some glue, d) Get some kicks/Have some chicks.

Djinna,

Any reference to Warren Cuccurullo will always remind me of this classic Zappa song: http://youtu.be/TKW4kA_Qhso which probably made Mr. Cuccurullo’s career somewhat more interesting.

It brings all the references to Missing Persons, Duran Duran, Lady Gaga (don’t tell me “Stefani Germanotta” couldn’t be mentioned in that song,) and too many other things into a tight squeezy embrace of love, hope, wistful youth, and… well, if you haven’t heard Joe’s Garage you just haven’t been exposed to enough of America. Which doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll like it, just that it’s there.

On a not-entirely-related note, how come the conspiracy about Lady Gaga having a penis seems to have just up and died? In a world where Osama bin Laden is hiding out in the White House basement with Tupac and with Donald Trump’s bald spot, you’d think there’d be room for Lady Gaga’s Cock.

On a not-entirely-related note, how come the conspiracy about Lady Gaga having a penis seems to have just up and died?

I’d like to think it’s because most people don’t really give a shit if she has a penis or not.

Going up a hill is more calories and there should be an option for flatter walks since not everyone can handle hills comfortably.

Actually the best way to handle them at first is to walk backwards upwards, since that uses the muscles in the back of the legs which can better bear the load than the anterior leg muscles can when one walks forward uphill.
Comment #10: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein on 05/06 at 12:15 PM

I was thinking of people who use a wheelchair, people with strollers, people who are heavy or not used to exercise, who might find a flatter route much easier and less conducive to showing up at work red and gasping and sweaty. 

I am amused at the idea, but while it sounds like a good way to work up to handling hills comfortably, I am ultimately not convinced that people walking up hills backwards would be a good pedestrian traffic solution.

And if you have bad knees, you know that it can be harder going down the hill than coming up it.

I was thinking of people who use a wheelchair, people with strollers, people who are heavy or not used to exercise, who might find a flatter route much easier and less conducive to showing up at work red and gasping and sweaty.

I was thinking of people who are heavy and not used to exercise,  oldfeminist.

I am ultimately not convinced that people walking up hills backwards would be a good pedestrian traffic solution.

That’s why I said ‘best way to handle them at first’, not a prescriptive suggestion in general for everyone to start walking uphill backwards.

And if you have bad knees, you know that it can be harder going down the hill than coming up it.

You know, if you start taking every consideration into account, soon, whatever I or someone recommends isn’t feasible because of special cases X, Y, Z, etc.

DA, if you think telling people who have trouble with hills to walk up them backwards is preferable to actually telling people where hills are, I don’t know what to think.

@28 - I like to think it’s because she acted like no one should give a shit, and seemed to appear not to give a fuck if people thought she was trans. She even taunted those folks with the blurred you-still-can’t-tell-hah! crotch shot in the Telephone video.

And I did mention heavy people as among those who don’t want to arrive at work covered in sweat, red and panting.  Your solution means we will have some people walking up the hills backwards from now to eternity.  Fat won’t be extinguished in our lifetimes.

As a person of varying fatness for my entire adult life, I will suggest that telling fat people to walk up hills backwards even as an intermediary step towards being able to walk more is going to fail pretty spectacularly.  Fat people get stared at enough when exercising already.  Let’s just make it more humiliating by making it look like some kind of hazing ritual.

If we start taking every consideration into account?  We could end up with a society that doesn’t exclude people from opportunities to use their bodies even if their bodies aren’t “ideal.”

Do you imagine that I’m making excuses for people not to walk?  I’m looking for ways to make walking more inclusive.  I suggested that this app help people plan their walking routes including hills, because hills matter to a lot of people.  If you’re not a fat person who has bad knees who still tries to walk places, then you might have no clue what makes it more likely we’ll choose to walk rather than drive.

Ha!  That was THE SOUNDTRACK of my clubbin’ ‘80’s*.  Thanks for the memories.  Good times.

(Cryin’ shame Missing Persons only had one good album in ‘em.)
*_early_ 80’s.

I guess I’m for the calories burned info, but it should have a toggle to turn off, and take the user’s height/weight into consideration (for greater accuracy).  On the other hand…

I started using Lose It! a couple of months ago, which tracks both intake and exercise, and I could feel myself get into an obsessive mode about it, so I understand the concerns that have been brought up here.  For myself, once I realized that the app was not very accurate, but still good at relative rankings (e.g., brown rice is *very* calorie rich, so one cup is more than enough), it helped me take a step back and use it as a guide, rather than a commandment from Mt. Sinai (“Thou shalt not eat more than 2,000 calories a day!”).

Another example of too much precision getting in the way:  Until last week, I only ran on treadmills, with all sorts of information staring me in the face.  Last week, I started running outside by my work (we’re by the Chicago River), listening to NPR on my Nano (radio on Nano is the real catalyst here), and stopped obsessing about how many mnutes I was running, or exactly how far.  I know where I start, and where I finish, so if I want to run farther next time, I run past where I stopped last time.  Who knew?

BTW, I don’t think it’s a good idea to cite studies that haven’t had at least one or two rounds of follow-ups, especially if the opposite finding wouldn’t have been worth mentioning.  The New Yorker piece *The Decline Effect* by Nicholas Lehman is a decent place to start, though he gets cute with his narrative.  Basically, even if all experiments were done on things that had no true correlation, 5% of them would result in false positives, and those 5% are what would get published.  The follow-ups would then “disprove” 95% of those “discoveries”, etc.  Since the study cited in The Well is from last year (relying on self-reported data, BTW), and it’s unlkely The Well wouldn’t write an article stating that 30 minutes of daily exercise negated 9 hours per day of sedentary living, I think I’d like to see the results of follow-up studies.  Though that doesn’t seem to be stopping the commenters on The Well from crowing about the results: more of the nurture/science tension you mention in your next post.

DA, if you think telling people who have trouble with hills to walk up them backwards is preferable to actually telling people where hills are, I don’t know what to think.

No, I’m saying it’s better to attempt hills by walking backwards at first if you can’t handle them walking forwards.  That’s all.

And I did mention heavy people as among those who don’t want to arrive at work covered in sweat, red and panting.  Your solution means we will have some people walking up the hills backwards from now to eternity.  Fat won’t be extinguished in our lifetimes.

oldfeminist, it’s clear to me that you want to start an argument by twisting my suggestion around, which BTW,  didn’t include all the factors you listed, and was only A SUGGESTION, not a command.

As a person of varying fatness for my entire adult life, I will suggest that telling fat people to walk up hills backwards even as an intermediary step towards being able to walk more is going to fail pretty spectacularly.

I would suggest telling fat people they shouldn’t even try hills at all is going to fail as well.

If we start taking every consideration into account?  We could end up with a society that doesn’t exclude people from opportunities to use their bodies even if their bodies aren’t “ideal.”

Or, if someone expects to find customized information from a general suggestion and is disappointed, it’s the fault of the person who made the general suggestion in the first place.

<b>Do you imagine that I’m making excuses for people not to walk?  I’m looking for ways to make walking more inclusive.<b>

How is giving a suggestion on how to tackle hills instead of avoiding them exclusive?

If you’re not a fat person who has bad knees who still tries to walk places, then you might have no clue what makes it more likely we’ll choose to walk rather than drive.

You brought up the bad knees, and of course if you have a physical problem that precludes accepting my suggestion, then IT ISN’T ABOUT YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE!

“oldfeminist, it’s clear to me that you want to start an argument by twisting my suggestion around”

Nope.  I thought your suggestion was of limited value.  And it was a pretty exclusive suggestion, if you want to pull the exclusivity card. 

When I said the problem of hills could be addressed with information on the hills, you said, “Actually the best way to handle them at first is to walk backwards upwards.”  The BEST way.  These are your exact words!

If a person has difficulty even walking half a mile, the BEST way for them to deal with hills is to fucking avoid the hills until they have the physical chops to attempt them.  If that ever happens, which it might not.

Give the person some success rather than giving them something embarrassing to do in the middle of a fucking CITY where everyone can see them.  Lots of people (not me) are afraid to even exercise in a gym for fuck’s sake because they don’t have “gym bodies.”

Taking an arrogant attitude when I say your suggestion is of limited value is typical of people who want to “help” other people who are different from them, but don’t know how to go about it other than by suggesting how to become more like them. Your ignorance of what it’s like to be a fat person walking through a city you work and/or live in isn’t helping you here. 

“I would suggest telling fat people they shouldn’t even try hills at all is going to fail as well.”

Okay, but that wasn’t my suggestion.  My suggestion involved helping the person CHOOSE WHAT S/HE WANTS TO DO BY HAVING THE APP PROVIDE USEFUL INFORMATION.  I wasn’t telling fat people what to do at all.  YOU were.

Surprisingly, you don’t have to suggest to fat people to not take hills.  Us lazy fat people already do! That’s our problem!  ha hahahahah!  FATTY FATTY FATTY!

No, actually.  Fat people already choose to avoid hills when they want to avoid sweating, puffing and turning red.  We have brains, too, you know.  And we (or at least I) choose to take hills when time isn’t of the essence, when we feel willing to take that challenge, when we’re feeling well and it’s a nice day and exercise beckons or we’re pissed off and need to burn off some energy even if it’s a crappy day.

You still haven’t explained how fat people walking up hills backwards will fit into normal pedestrian flow on city sidewalks filled with other pedestrians.  Rear-view mirrors?  Reverse-only lanes painted on the sidewalk?

And to be honest I’m kind of baffled because I don’t have problems going up hills, and I’ve been over 300 pounds.  It just takes time, and energy, but my leg musculature wasn’t a problem, maybe because I moved 300 pounds around daily all over the place.  So your suggestion is good for people not like me, a fat person who works and lives in a city and sometimes commutes on foot and doesn’t have specific leg problems going up hills, it just takes more energy to move 300 pounds up a hill than it does 150.  Your suggestion is limited indeed.

I challenge you to find anyone who thinks telling people where hills are is much less useful than telling fat or flabby people to walk up hills backwards until they’re so fucking fit they don’t care if there’s a hill there or not, they just power on up it.  There are a lot of people who will never be that fit.  Accommodating their need for information to suit their physical abilities so they can effectively plan their pedestrian route is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I stand by my words:  If we start taking every consideration into account?  We could end up with a society that doesn’t exclude people from opportunities to use their bodies even if their bodies aren’t “ideal.”

Wow, I actually recognize all but one of your picks this week, that’s got to be the most for me. 
#4 is much better if you only hear it once in a while rather that have a younger sib play it in loop at least once an hour for days on end.  B52s and Adam Ant are two of my favorites under quirky.

More info is better, but a button to turn on the option would be the better way to go (IMO, and to turn ON, not to turn off).
DA, I have no problem with hills and did a WTF? to your “walk backwards suggestion” as it seemed to come completely from left field and be only very tangentially related to the comment you seemed to be attaching it.  You really need to work on not being tone deaf if you don’t want to feel like people are starting fights with you when they react not too far from “WTF are you tlaking about. and how do you expect that to be of any help?”

Now I have “Up the Hill Backwards” by David Bowie stuck in my head.

DA, I have no problem with hills and did a WTF? to your “walk backwards suggestion” as it seemed to come completely from left field and be only very tangentially related to the comment you seemed to be attaching it.

Helen, oldfeminist would’ve been okay without having added the snark of ” a good pedestrian traffic solution” , which wasn’t what I intended to say, and I got snappish.

oldfeminist, if you can’t handle hills, you can’t handle hills, and therefore nothing I or anyone else can change that fact, so why the uproar in the first place?

Helen, oldfeminist would’ve been okay without having added the snark of ” a good pedestrian traffic solution” , which wasn’t what I intended to say, and I got snappish.

Characterizing your suggestion as “the best way” makes it sound like you think your suggestion is the best way. 

There’s an obvious out here that I don’t expect you will ever take.

You’re wrong, oldfeminist, it is a horrible pedestrian traffic solution, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

It’s not only a poor pedestrian traffic solution, it is not the best way to deal with hills for the majority of people.  Not even “at first.”

That’s why I recommended it only as a way of getting to the point of tacking a hill, IF YOU WANT TO.

This is a late post, but I’ve finished a week of chemo infusion last Saturday and I’m sick and in pain from it.

Frankly I think that it is pathetic that people on a feminist, anti-racist, progressive, anti-oppression blog dare object to people communicating their feelings against acts of oppression that happen in this space. I’m so sorry that a person taking issue against to that is such an inconvenience. It’s the duty of oppressed people to cater to their oppressors whims and make them feel comfortable. /sarcasm.

“Language policing.” Aha ha ha, aha ha, ha. Feminism, anti-racism, LGBT activism, etc frequently analyzes the way language is used by the dominant society and works to challenge and mitigate its negative effects on people, misogyny, racism, generally bigotry won’t fly here unchallenged yet I am to believe that it’s suddenly not okay when a bare smidgeon of anti-ablism/disablism thought is introduced to this space? I don’t buy it. I think instead this is a case of people who know better deliberately not living up to the responsibilities imposed on them by their own philosophies. Is it too hard? Are there those not up to snuff? I think that people can learn to apply themselves better.

Oh and I’m sorry again that I didn’t read 500+ comments of drama on Feministe which is used to somehow justify how it’s okay to tell those uppity underprivileged that they’re so mean to those poor individuals who can’t help themselves but fuck up. mea culpa

Secondly “policing” implies that there is a power dynamic at play here, basically that the disabled have power over the dominant group, of course this is false, absurd, and insulting in the face of reality that disabled people face.

As for hearing the same things talked about over and over again, have some awareness, that is what social justice advocacy is, and will be until the dominant paradigm changes.