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Next entry: Once more into the breech Previous entry: Video: Must-see speech of ally Congressman John Lewis at Equality Alabama gala

From populist to individualist to populist in the blink of an eye

Tim Wise has written an interesting post about the rising popularity of Ayn Rand and Rand’s own youthful infatuation with a young man who killed and mutilated a 12-year-old girl, who Rand admired because here was a man that just took what he pleased him and saw social norms as the tedious restraints on brilliant minds like his own.  No, I’m not kidding.  You can read more here.  It’s initially sort of surprising, but it actually makes sense.  Sociopathy—-remember, not all sociopathy is sadistic—-is the purest expression of Rand’s “philosophy”.  It’s not that Rand though chopping up little girls and leaving half their torsos for their fathers to find when they expected to find a live girl was a great idea.  Indeed, it seems she didn’t think much of the act either way.  She was just enamored of the idea of someone who had shaken off that pesky burden of considering the little people to be human beings whose pain counted, and whose lives matter.  The story of Rand’s time as a murder groupie is interesting, and I recommend following the links, but this post is about something else, something Paul Rosenberg has labeled the cultural contradictions of conservatism. As we’ve learned in the past year, right wingers will portray themselves as:

a) Joe and Jane Six Pack, the salt of the earth who are pushing back against the evils perpetuated by the liberal elites, who you can tell are evil because they think they’re so smart and ignore the homespun wisdom of Joe and Jane.  Joe and Jane’s very lack of extraordinariness is their greatest virtue.  They are Christian, conformist, and incredibly hostile to sexual deviancy.  Sarah Palin sneering at anyone who had too much erudition or sophistication to be just folks is straight out of the right wing populist handbook.

Or, depending on the circumstances:

b) Randian superheroes, standing up bravely for the few who truly produce against the teeming masses of parasites that want to steal wealth away, individualists who idolize Social Darwinism, and who believe that the inadequate—-which would be most of us—-are better off dying anyway, so why should we have health care? Who are you mewling workers who want your tedious doctors appointments to get in the way of the captains of industry, the few who have proven their worth and genius?

It’s tempting to suggest these are two different groups of people and they rise and fall depending on the circumstances, and there’s some truth to that.  But the bigger picture suggests that there’s more overlap than not.  Indeed, so tightly are these two strategies intertwined that you had people shaking John Galt signs at the teabagger protest, and then immediately moving on to widely exaggerating the crowd size to suggest that they speak for a majority of just folks average Americans.  If they were being even remotely consistent, they’d be proud of having a tiny crowd, which could then be used to prove that it was just the few and the worthy who showed up. 


A good example of how both trains of thought preside in the same people is the anti-choice movement’s role in the teabagger protests.  If you take their arguments at face value, anti-choicers are the purest expression of right wing populism: They argue that abortion and sexual liberation in general are selfish, and have be stomped out because they’re evidence of individuals prizing themselves over the collective.  They romanticize themselves and Joe and Jane Six Packs, who may not have a lot of book learning, but they know they like babies and they don’t like the idea of girls getting themselves involved in all that decadent sex stuff.  And yet, there they are at the forefront of the teabagger protests, shilling for the idea that you shouldn’t have to consider your neighbor a human being with medical needs that should be met.  It was, after all, an anti-choice group who came up with the signs that said, “Bury Obamacare with Ted Kennedy”, since celebrating a man’s death is “pro-life” now.  But what they have in common with the Rand-bots is a shared belief that women are inferior to men, that women are objects to be acted on by male force and power.  Rand did write romance-by-rape in Fountainhead, after all.

Of course, the reason conservatives swing back and forth between these contradictory viewpoints is that these are merely rationalizations papered over their actual views, which are consistently racist, sexist, and hierarchical.  The justifications change, but the villains remain the same: college professors, Hollywood liberals, racial minorities, gays, women, hippies, etc.  When conservatives are in mindspace #1, they tend to see women and racial minorities as hapless victims of evil socialist liberals, since we’re all too stupid to realize that we’re better off submitting to the conservative men who naturally know better than us. When they’re in mindspace #2, women and racial minorities become more ominous villains, out to rob and emasculate.  #1 is when wingnuts are talking up welfare creating a “cycle of dependency”, and #2 is when they’re talking up thugs rising up, and why conservatives need to hoard guns.

It’s not surprising that Randian pouting is ascendant now that the right wing has lost power, or that right wing populism was the thing when the right wing was in power.  All people are a bundle of competing desires to be popular and to be individualist, which means we’re capable of both leaning on popularity of an opinion of ours to justify it and using the unpopularity of an opinion of ours to justify ourselves as mavericks who are misunderstood by the powers that be.  Mature people realize that popularity or lack of it is not a reliable measure of the rightness of an opinion, that at the end of the day popularity is simply neutral.  Good ideas take off sometimes, and sometimes they wither on the vine.  Bad ideas become fads sometimes, and sometimes they’re rejected.  It’s nothing to get bent out of shape about, and narratives about “selling out” or being “elitist” are usually bullshit someone else is imposing on you to justify why they don’t like your art or your ideas. 

Using popularity as a measurement of the worth of something—-both good and bad—-is the lazy man’s strategy.  It’s appealing because it helps you avoid having to look at the thing itself’s value. For the racists and sexists and otherwise authority-and-hierarchy-obsessed conservatives, using popularity as a shortcut is doubly appealing, not just because they’re lazy, but because they know that presenting a bundle of prejudices as ideas isn’t going to fly.  So instead, they lean on popularity arguments.  If their ideas seem unpopular, the crosses disappear and the copies of Atlas Shrugged come out, and they’re individualists who are being used by the parasitic masses.  If they’re on top, the crosses come out and they’re good Christians promoting a sacrificial conservative ideal with populist backing.  Of course, this is an oversimplification, because as the protesters and their enablers demonstrated, their justifications can change by the minute, depending on what they think will give them the advantage right then. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 03:33 PM • (90) Comments

I think many people are cautious to attack Ayn Rand as a person, but rather keep their ire directed toward her writing on the objectivist philosophy she promoted.

A little study of her personal life experiences and her personal beliefs shows that she wasn’t a very good human being.

She wasn’t merely a crappy writer with crappy ideas… she was actually a pretty shitty person.

Comment #1: DTG in STL  on  09/20  at  03:48 PM

It’s too bad they don’t really believe in Randism.  Then they could just go Galt and leave us the hell alone.

Comment #2: ladybronwyn  on  09/20  at  03:56 PM

Unbelievable. And I thought Norman Mailer was an ass for befriending Jack Henry Abbott. At least Rand didn’t try to get this guy released, but my God, championing someone who dismembered a 12-year-old girl, after literally dangling her in front of her father’s nose and snatching her away?

Rand is an extreme example of what happens when intelligence is unaccompanied by the slightest shred of common sense.

Comment #3: Bitter Scribe  on  09/20  at  04:01 PM

Even if you’re hesitant to attack Rand-the-person, I fail to see why her infatuation with this murderer would fall under that.  Her infatuation is Rand-the-ideas in their purest form.  She liked this murder because he epitomized her ideas, not despite it.  Her infatuation was her ideas. 

I’m not sure I understand the distinction you’re making.  This has no relationship to an ad hominem attack, which would be more like, “Rand was ugly, therefore her idea have no merit.”  This is, “Rand’s ideas have no merit, because a close examination, with this evidence included, demonstrates she was an admirer of sociopathy.”

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  04:31 PM

Rand was a completely fucked up person.  Not just stupid, but fucked up.

Society condemned William Hickman b/c he kidnapped murdered and dismembered a child.  Yeah, that is sort of tossing “society’s” rules out the window.  It is refusing to acknowledge the humanity in anyone else.

It’s total sociopathy, and idolizing that is fucked up.

Comment #5: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  09/20  at  04:37 PM

Or, to be more specific: Pointing out that Rand was a drug addict doesn’t mean that her ideas are discredited.  However, it’s legitimate to point out that Rand’s ranting style is the result of her addiction to speed.  This new information is legitimate in evaluating her ideas. There is no such thing as the sober evaluation of an idea separate from context, which is why we feel confident in dismissing Rand’s hero Hickman’s arguments to himself about why it’s okay to murder and mutilate for fun and profit.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  04:41 PM

Any of the Randian men I’ve ever met struck me as MRAs who were pissed at having to pay child support.

It’s all me, me, me.

I read Rand when I was 16, not impressed then, either.

Comment #7: judybrowni  on  09/20  at  04:44 PM

I think the apparent dichotomy reflects their collective tribalism.  They identify themselves as white working class Christians, who they see as the backbone of America and whose values they feel should be pre-eminent in the Republic.  Their Randian impulses flow not from wanting to share with other individuals so much as with other groups.  It is not that they want to sink other members of their own group, but rather they do not want anything taken from them to give to or benefit any other group.  This is clearly informed by the narrative that they have been fed by conservative elites that it is minorities, women, intellectuals, who are stealing their well being from them, not rapacious corporations doing their utmost to drive wages to the lowest possible level.  It is also informed by the fact that white men, principally in the working classes, did suffer economic losses from desegregation and women’s rights as a consequence of that invisible hand they worship.  When the labor supply expands, the value of labor declines, which is partly why it now takes two incomes to maintain the same standard of living one income could achieve when I was growing up in the 50s and 60s.  Those were clearly the right things to do, but we should not ignore the consequences for low income workers.

Comment #8: DrDick  on  09/20  at  04:44 PM

“Using popularity as a measurement of the worth of something—-both good and bad—-is the lazy man’s strategy.”  And yet we base our system of government around it.  Perhaps the liberal parallel to this dichotomy you point out in conservative thought is in extolling the virtues of democracy when the people vote the way we want and calling it “lazy” and the public “authority-and-hierarchy-obsessed” when they don’t. 

Is there moral worth in government reflecting the will of the people over and above the rightness of the policies being reflected?  If so, then it’s not really fair to call the popularity contests we call elections merely “lazy” as they would be morally indicated and, if not, then we should at all times be working through extra-democratic methods to achieve our policy ends whenever the people don’t vote our way.

Comment #9: Tim P.  on  09/20  at  04:53 PM

Is it me, or does Rand’s basic philosophy echo Hitler’s own notion of a Master Race?

Comment #10: CHV  on  09/20  at  04:53 PM

Great insights here, Amanda! Like Sarah Palin, proclaiming herself the spokesperson of Real America, while bragging how mavericky she is!

As an aside, Alan Greenspan, foremer Federal Reserve chair, was a disciple of Rand, and in fact, was part of her dinner-party set. Greenspan is married to Andrea Mitchell, the MSM newsreporter. Greenspan was the wet dream of the Wall Street Journal editorial page.

Comment #11: revrick  on  09/20  at  04:56 PM

So SHRUG already. Go Galt! Quit your jobs and leave all of us socialist groupies to die. JUST GO AWAY.

Comment #12: Seebach  on  09/20  at  04:57 PM

It’s tempting to suggest these are two different groups of people and they rise and fall depending on the circumstances, and there’s some truth to that.  But the bigger picture suggests that there’s more overlap than not.

The overlap is best observed as a class/labour/education phenomenon: within that portion of the Venn diagram of bitterness and sociopathy are the powerless middle manager, the untenured academic, the underemployed office clerk, the middle-aged and college-educated exurban mom, the bright but callow 15-year-old nerd, and (most prominently in my life) the rank-and-file techies and coders. There’s also likely a strong element of sexual frustration and romantic dissatisfaction present, which is why “Pick-Up Artists,” MRAs and NiceGuys® tend to flock to Rand like moths to a flame.

Once in a while I’ll see someone reading Atlas Shrugged (and reading it conspicuously) on the subway or bus. Invariably in my downtown urban area it’ll be a grungy-looking “eternal student” type or a 50-year-old sad-sack in a cheap suit—not exactly Rand’s heroic captains of industry.

Comment #13: Gracchus.  on  09/20  at  05:01 PM

And yet we base our system of government around it.

That’s a childish and simplistic view.  We don’t have democracy because we think it’s going to come up with the best results all the time. In fact, there are a number of controls to keep fads and popular will from resulting in mass violence against whatever group is out of fashion.  I’d think you conservatives would be grateful for this—-there’s no attempts to take your right to vote, are there? 

It’s true that liberals are prone to get lazy and fall on popularity as a measurement of worth.  We are, for instance, easy to guilt trip about populism.  You’re trying to do it now, hinting that someone is opposed to democracy if someone suggests that bad ideas can be popular.  That would work on some liberals, but not me.  The empirical evidence demonstrates that idiotic ideas can be really popular, from the Macarena to George Bush.

Democracy is the system we have because it’s the most just, not that it’s guaranteed to have perfect outcomes.  To quote Winston Churchill, “It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.” 

The ugly truth is that conservatives are more prone to the wild changes in political philosophy moment to moment depending on whatever sounds best to justify their real, unspoken political philosophy.  Liberals have our flaws, the biggest being that our enthusiasm for “the people” can be used to make us feel guilty about observing empirical evidence showing that “the people” can be wonderful or wicked, depending on the moment.  But honestly, that’s just some of us.  Most of us have the maturity to see that popularity isn’t a measure of worth of an idea, but simply is a facet of society that is neither good nor bad.  Which doesn’t make it unimportant.  The weather is a neutral thing from a moral standpoint, but it is nonetheless important.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  05:11 PM

Pointing out that Rand was a drug addict doesn’t mean that her ideas are discredited.

Of course it does.  Her ideas rest on the fallacy that she was superior to everyone else.  Her drug addiction, among other things, proves that she was just as flawed as the rest of us, maybe more.

Comment #15: keshmeshi  on  09/20  at  05:13 PM

Perhaps the liberal parallel to this dichotomy you point out in conservative thought is in extolling the virtues of democracy when the people vote the way we want and calling it “lazy” and the public “authority-and-hierarchy-obsessed” when they don’t.

You think conservatives don’t do exactly the same thing? For every left-winger in 2004 who earnestly claimed he was moving to Canada or the EU, I’ve seen at least three right-wingers wanting to escape Blackazoid’s People’s Republic of Socialism to an off-shore oil rig or free-state Galt’s Gulch. What you describe is the view of our system taken by those fantasists who are ignorant of its workings and design. As a republic (and not a democracy), provision is indeed made for “extra-democratic methods” to achieve policy ends in the Constitution itself—that’s why not every policy debate is put up for plebiscite.

Is there moral worth in government reflecting the will of the people over and above the rightness of the policies being reflected?

Yes, it’s called taking responsibility for one’s vote, whether that vote is for an incurious and semi-literate trustafarian who masquerades as “jes’ folks” or a wonkish neoliberal centrist who’s charismatic enough to convince people he’s a progressive. That doesn’t condemn the system itself to immorality, it just acknowledges the nature of politics in any large-scale system of governance.

I read the other day that you can tell a lot about an American’s political maturity by his answer to the question “In our system, are you governed or do you govern?” A startling amount of native-born Americans will happily answer with the former, and a lot of them are likely Libertarians and definitely conservatives.

Comment #16: Gracchus.  on  09/20  at  05:17 PM

When you consider that one of the founding myths of the US is plucky David taking on the British Goliath, winning the day through self reliance and bravery despite overwhelming odds, it’s not so much of a contradiction any more, though. Joe and Jane Sixpack are the ideological decendants of the Pioneers, or even the Puritans - people who saw themselves, and were largely written into history, as both persecuted victims and courageous heroes.

The specific Randian superhero narrative is useful just at present, because it allows people to think of themselves as being isolated, outcast, victimised, without the associations that would normally accompany that position, such as being weak or pathetic.

It’s the perfect way of squaring the circle of social conservatism in opposition: how do you portray yourself as the victim without admitting affinity with the victim-groups you despise (the poor, minorities etc.)? After all, if the basis for your anti-welfare argument is that the poor and disenfranchised in society deserve their plight, being lazy and shiftless, and most importantly by losing, then once you’ve lost power you have to somehow make it so that you did not in turn bring it on yourself (which they totally did, through endorsing 8 years of the worst governance the US has ever seen).

In that sense I don’t think that there is any switching between the two going on here, and it’s probably a more coherent psychological basis for their current actions than first appears. Which is not to say that conservatives don’t argue in bad faith about the actual issues, because they do - but the underlying mentality is genuine, I think.

Comment #17: MarinaS  on  09/20  at  05:19 PM

I am not a conservative and it’s telling that you would assume that.  I probably agree with close to 100% of your policy goals.  The question is: if popularity is morally neutral, i.e. the will of the people has nothing to do with something being right or wrong or valuable, what makes democracy the most just system?  That it produces the best results?  That’s far from a given, a priori.  And that would mean if it ever didn’t produce the best results, as in a case where people vote into office a murderous dictator or vote for discriminatory policies, the right thing to do would be to ignore the whims of the democratic system.

Comment #18: Tim P.  on  09/20  at  05:24 PM

Of course it does.  Her ideas rest on the fallacy that she was superior to everyone else.  Her drug addiction, among other things, proves that she was just as flawed as the rest of us, maybe more.

It’s a bit of a grey area, given the way amphetamines were viewed at the time—not really an “addictive” drug in the way we understand it now, but something that was perfectly controllable by superior types (like dieting suburban housewives, fighter pilots, and captains of industry). The fallacy and loss of credibility is more clear-cut when you’re talking about more contemporary degenerate addicts like Limbaugh or (now that gambling is considered addictive) Bennett.

On the other hand, we can certainly question the quality of ideas generated by marathon Benzedrine-fueled writing sessions. I’d imagine, for example, that speed might make the concept of a 50-page radio address a lot more plausible.

Comment #19: Gracchus.  on  09/20  at  05:29 PM

One interesting viewpoint would be that Rand, in fact, was actually very anti-capitalist - some of her biggest villains, especially in Atlas Shrugged, are capitalists who actually behave like capitalists do in real world - using the government for their own benefit and so on. (Of course, their main motivation is acting like a reverse Captain Planet villain - driving the country into the ground just for the hell of it, just because they’re EVIL.) Rand’s heroines and heroes, on the other hand, are completely out of la-la land, magically wealthy perfect objectivists that for some reason don’t seem to be in abundance in the real world.) Rand’s fans, of course, prefer to imagine that actual real world billionaires are like Rand’s unicorn-like fantasy tycoons - at least until those billionaires do something that Randians disapprove of. (Sometime around 2000, while Clinton was still president and the Microsoft anti-trust case was ongoing, I read a hilarious piece of political fanfiction wank where John Galt came to Redmond in a helicopter to take poor, oppressed Bill Gates to Galt’s Gulch.)

Comment #20: Tatu Ahponen  on  09/20  at  05:33 PM

I am a huge book nerd, always have been. So when somebody recommended Atlas Shrugged to me, I took it on because I don’t like to judge an author before I’d read their work. This was in 2003, when Silent Hill 3 was still a new game. I was playing it, and in the “hell” version of the hospital you will find a book written in crayon, obviously made by one of the patients. Said book begins; “The world is teeming with unnecessary people,” and followed by a lot of self-absorbed bumf about a special chosen few picked to cleanse the world of the unworthy and remake it in their image. After you’ve examined this, the protagonist will say “If I see this guy [who wrote this], I want to ask him: ‘So, you think you’re one of the necessary ones, huh?’” which pretty much summed up my sixteen-year-old self’s feelings about Randian philosophy. I dumped AS back at the library the next day and tried to scrub it from memory.

Comment #21: Princess Rot  on  09/20  at  05:33 PM

kesh, yes and no.  Not all drug addicts are discredited, but I think you make a legit argument with the facts on hand. 

Sorry for assuming wrong, Tim. 

Democracy isn’t a just system.  It’s more just than other systems.  There is no such thing as a perfectly just system.  Democracy is the most just because it is about maintaining the usefulness of power while sharing it enough to disable its worst excesses.  Democracy is more just than monarchy because it’s the best way to obtain some semblance of consent to be governed while not throwing government out.

Obviously, some people who see the flaws in all this, from a moral standpoint, point out that anarchy is the only truly moral system because it’s the only way to make sure a person’s always consenting.  In theory.  In practice, it would actually reduce people’s control over their own lives, as roving gangs of criminals started to extract payment for “protection” and feudalism started to form.

That’s basically the argument for democracy: the most power and freedom you can share without everything collapsing into a feudalistic nightmare.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  05:34 PM

And now that I’ve apologized for my mistake, is it still “telling”?

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  05:39 PM

This sort of dichotomy in thinking isn’t unusual: when you truly have a hate on for another group this sort of thing happens all the damn time.  To use an, a few years back one of the White Power Rangers went off on me for being a race traitor, preferring the “lesser races” and the “deviants” over the Aryans.  I pointed out that according to the rhetoric of the White Power bunch, including him, the Jews owned everything, the black folks were running the government for their benefit, the Latinos were in the middle of a successful invasion, and the gays controlled popular entertainment.  I was simple ensuring the continuity of my superior Aryan genes by choosing the winning side instead of the losers of the superior race.

The inherent contradiction is something they really don’t think about.

Comment #24: KeithM  on  09/20  at  05:42 PM

Tim P @ #18: it’s called reversion and reversibility. Anyone who is voted into office can be voted out again, and anyone who is voted out of office can be voted back in. there are some exceptions that different countries impose, usually only on the very highest powers in the land, e.g. the limit on the number of times someone can serve as POTUS. But the principle is a universal feature of all democracies, and it’s what is at the basis of making sure that if and when the electorate make a mistake, that mistake can be realised and corrected.

There are actually extremely few examples (only one that I can think of off hand - in Germany) of people literally voting in a dictator. The first thing they do is scrap reversion and especially reversibility, making sure they can’t be booted out once they show their true colours. Look at Vladimir Putin, desperately trying to game the system to remian in power - he’s talking about changing the law to allow him to stand for President again now. But even in Russia, which is far from a robust democracy, it ain’t that easy. And even if he does get th law changed, people can, infuriatingly for him, just not vote for him.

What I’m getting at is that it takes a lot more than just the electorate being stupid to really scupper a democracy, and the electorate aren’t all that stupid to begin with. Which is what democracy is based on - trusting in the ability of people to eventually and in the long run give power to the people who have the majority of the good ideas the majority of the time. It’s neither a distopian, perpetual-game-show popularity contest, nor a pure and annaloyed paradise of reason and justice for all. That makes it the most moral system of government, because it’s the most human one.

Comment #25: MarinaS  on  09/20  at  05:42 PM

I am not a conservative and it’s telling that you would assume that.

I can’t speak for Amanda, but I didn’t make that assumption. I’m assuming you’re one of those edgy and independent Libertarians (or perhaps a neo-feudalist or, given your claim to progressivism, an anarchist).

The question is: if popularity is morally neutral, i.e. the will of the people has nothing to do with something being right or wrong or valuable, what makes democracy the most just system?

You’re begging the question there by incorrectly assuming that popularity being morally neutral automatically means that the will of the people has nothing to do with the value of outcomes. To be sure, there’s a popularity contest implicit in democratic elections, but that’s not the only factor informing the decision of voters. Also, in America and elsewhere democratic elections are generally part of the toolkit of a republican system; if the system is weak and flawed (as it was in Weimar Germany), then under certain conditions it can and will be hoist by its own petard. That doesn’t eliminate the justness of requiring citizens to take a certain degree of responsibility for the policy decisions of those they elect, nor does it eliminate the justness of having politicians be beholden to their constituents.

That’s a lot more just than absolute monarchies, theocracies, oligarchies and dictatorships.

Comment #26: Gracchus.  on  09/20  at  05:43 PM

Have to go to work so I won’t be able to respond after this for a while, but I guess my hangup is on the distinction between popularity and consent.  Is there one?  What is popularity if not the aggregate of individuals consenting to a proposition?  And then we’re back to popularity being morally neutral (from the original post) and my original question: if popularity (consent) is morally neutral..?

Comment #27: Tim P.  on  09/20  at  05:44 PM

I am not a conservative and it’s telling that you would assume that.  I probably agree with close to 100% of your policy goals.  The question is: if popularity is morally neutral, i.e. the will of the people has nothing to do with something being right or wrong or valuable, what makes democracy the most just system?  That it produces the best results?  That’s far from a given, a priori.  And that would mean if it ever didn’t produce the best results, as in a case where people vote into office a murderous dictator or vote for discriminatory policies, the right thing to do would be to ignore the whims of the democratic system.

Your postulation revolves around a false premise… that the U.S. presently is, or ever has been, a democracy.

We are not.

We are a democratic republic, which gives the populace a degree of power over our laws and institutions insofar as we get to vote for who writes those laws, and who executes them, but a lot of the democratic will of the people is tempered by the judiciary, which can be a really good thing.

Had we been a true democracy, interracial marriage would not have been legalized when it was… it took a court of undemocratically appointed jurists to make a decision that the popular will of the people at the time would not have made when Loving v. Virginia took place.

Comment #28: DTG in STL  on  09/20  at  05:47 PM

You know, if Hickman or Crime and Punishment‘s Raskolnikov were really the Nietzschean supermen they fancied themselves, they would have gotten away with their crimes rather than being caught, tried, and sentenced (Hickman was executed). How could Rand idolize a crappy wannabe superman who couldn’t manage to both want to be above the law and be above the law?

Comment #29: Orange  on  09/20  at  05:50 PM

Tim P:  another commenter already put to rest the idea that democracy is based on best outcomes. (as well as the idea that the United States is a pure democracy, as opposed to a republic.)

But it’s worth noting that our system actually DOES allow for occasionally ignoring the whims of the populace, and mitigating the damage done by popular, but moronic, ideas—through the courts, and the amendment system. These tend to step in when it becomes apparent that the majority intends to continue holding dangerously stupid or prejudiced attitudes to the detriment of their fellow citizens.

Again, not perfect. The selection of supreme court judges depends upon the government that has been imperfectly elected by an imperfect populace. But then the perfect is often the enemy of the good, etc. etc…

Comment #30: Well, what?  on  09/20  at  05:51 PM

damn. others said it better when I was trying to type around my cat’s fat ass.

Comment #31: Well, what?  on  09/20  at  05:54 PM

Have to go to work so I won’t be able to respond after this for a while, but I guess my hangup is on the distinction between popularity and consent.  Is there one?  What is popularity if not the aggregate of individuals consenting to a proposition?

Let’s not engage in conversation drift.  Your initial concerns were addressed, I think. Consent is the value, popularity is the means.  That doesn’t mean the content of the action’s value is determined.

For instance, if I have adulterous sex with a man, and we both consented, that means consent was obtained.  It makes it not-rape. Doesn’t make it a good idea.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  05:55 PM

Or to be more clear, consent is a bare minimum requirement, and democracy is the closest thing we’ve got to making sure people are consenting.  Like in sex, consent is really a bare minimum. The government shouldn’t wield its power to regulate consenting relationships, but that doesn’t mean that all of them can be considered to have the same moral value.  Consent is present in loving sex that is beneficial to all involved and society. Consent is present in sex that doesn’t give much more than just immediate pleasure.  Consent exists in sex that is destructive.  But consent is a minimum. It doesn’t really define the content.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  06:00 PM

Also, the murderous dictator thing is why I pointed out that a functional democracy has controls.  Consent requires that people’s basic rights are respected even when their ideology is out of power, for the same reason that it’s still rape if you rape someone who’s had sex with you willingly before.

No one seriously thinks it’s a perfect system.  Like the human body, it’s a matter of good-enough-ness.  A system that strives for perfection is probably going to run roughshod over protections necessary to maximize everyone’s freedom.  Good enough-ness is actually the best solution in many cases, though it’s not sexy.

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  06:03 PM

if Hickman or Crime and Punishment‘s Raskolnikov were really the Nietzschean supermen they fancied themselves, they would have gotten away with their crimes rather than being caught, tried, and sentenced

That’s what I was thinking while reading Amanda’s links.  Hickman was caught because he left fingerprints on one of the ransom notes.  So frickin’ stupid.

Comment #35: keshmeshi  on  09/20  at  06:21 PM

Just chiming in to point out that sex in Atlas Shrugged was rape too: I remember a dreadful “it would have meant less to her if he’d asked her permission first” quote. Sweet jesus: the woman approves of her rape because she’s a randian übermensch and sympathizes with psychopaths. Or something. What a book.

Comment #36: CassieC  on  09/20  at  06:22 PM

Reading the linked article, I was struck by Rand’s assertion that Hickman “does not understand, because he has no organ for understanding, the necessity, meaning, or importance of other people ... Other people do not exist for him and he does not understand why they should.” 

I can see how someone who truly had no understanding of other people would think that kidnapping a child and holding her for ransom was a good idea—if he needed money, that’s a way to get it.  I can even, if I stretch, see how that person would conclude that killing the child would be a good idea, since it would reduce the chance of getting caught.

What I can’t see is why someone who *really, really, really* did not understand that other people had existence independent of him and his needs would decide to it was a good idea to show up at the ransom/victim handoff with a dismembered corpse, give the family enough of a glimpse of said dismembered corpse that they would think it was the live child, and then drive away, scattering parts of the dismembered child on the street.  I can’t imagine that someone would do that if they had no idea how it would make the child’s parents feel.  I can only imagine that someone would do that if had a pretty good idea how it would make the parents feel, and wanted to make them feel that way. 

There’s a huge difference between thinking only of yourself and what benefits you (a viewpoint that is distasteful but has a certain brutal logic behind it), and actively wanting to cause other people to suffer, even when it doesn’t help you in any practical way (which is both distasteful and illogical, and therefore not defensible on any grounds).  And, to drag this back on topic, I do think that the segment of the wingnutteria that pretends to believe the former actually believes that latter.  The only way some of their actions—such as, say, opposing tax cuts for the poor that also come with tax cuts for the income segment to which the wingnuts themselves belong—make sense is if causing other people to suffer is their most important goal.

Comment #37: A.  on  09/20  at  06:46 PM

Tim P:

The question is: if popularity is morally neutral, i.e. the will of the people has nothing to do with something being right or wrong or valuable, what makes democracy the most just system? That it produces the best results? That’s far from a given, a priori. And that would mean if it ever didn’t produce the best results, as in a case where people vote into office a murderous dictator or vote for discriminatory policies, the right thing to do would be to ignore the whims of the democratic system.

The justness of a particular form of government has very little to do with its outcomes. It’s a measure of the ability to participate.

A benevolent dictatorship, for example, is not a just form of government, even if everyone agrees that all of its actions benefit its subjects. Neither is an otherwise participatory government that has no ability or inclination to weed out bad but popular ideas that deliberately target a particular segment of the population. On the gripping hand, a government that can unilaterally and without restriction invalidate the will of the people for any reason or no reason whatseover is no better than a dictatorship.

As others have mentioned, there is no such thing as a perfect government, so trying to talk about it in the abstract is pretty pointless.

Comment #38: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  09/20  at  06:53 PM

Also, the murderous dictator thing is why I pointed out that a functional democracy has controls.  Consent requires that people’s basic rights are respected even when their ideology is out of power, for the same reason that it’s still rape if you rape someone who’s had sex with you willingly before.

And, just to make it clear for wingnuts who might be tempted to try “Gotcha!!” tactics, there is no basic right not to be taxed by a legitimate government, there is no basic right not to have health care or any other social program provided by the State, and Obama was legitimately elected.

Any attempt to wind Amanda up by attempting to point out “inconsistencies” will result in you being mocked with the sarcasm levels turned to “11”.

Comment #39: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/20  at  06:54 PM

Do other countries have as many absolutists who want a government based in a single principle instead of a general goal of maximizing the freedom and security of its residents?  Or are Americans peculiarly cursed with people who think that we should ban taxes on the grounds that they refuse to see the degrees of difference, and that there’s no number of people crushed by their proposed system that would make them reconsider it?

Comment #40: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  07:04 PM

Amanda:The core difference, I strongly believe has to do with the nature of the Constitution as opposed to other such ideologies of other countries. The Constitution only acts as a limiter on government, with little regarding positive rights for the people, like you mention, freedom and security. Those are after-effects of the limits of government, made for, well…a frontier type country.

As such, you get a popular ideology that states that freedom is the absence of government, as opposed to freedom being the ability to live life within reason how you please.

Comment #41: Karmakin  on  09/20  at  07:15 PM

A, sociopaths don’t feel human empathy, but for whatever reason, most of them enjoy manipulating people.  They intellectually understand the pain, but they don’t feel it.  Most of them, from what I understand, enjoy showing off how they can manipulate normal people.  Not all of them are sadistic, though.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  07:34 PM

This has no relationship to an ad hominem attack, which would be more like, “Rand was ugly, therefore her idea have no merit.” This is, “Rand’s ideas have no merit, because a close examination, with this evidence included, demonstrates she was an admirer of sociopathy.”

Actually, I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I think technically it is an ad hominem. But this is why I think ad hominem arguments get a rap they really don’t deserve a lot of the time.

I mean, obviously “You’re ugly therefore your argument has no merit,” is not a very useful thing to say in any circumstances. But “Jonah Goldberg is Jonah Goldberg, therefore whatever he’s just written has no merit” may not be logically watertight, but it’s a damn useful heuristic. Or “Dick Cheney said it, therefore it’s not true.”

Similarly, “Ayn Rand thought murderous psychopaths were awesome therefore the value of her social philosophy is suspect” isn’t logically watertight either, and like I said, I think it does technically count as ad hominem. But it’s a pretty valuable thing to point out.

This is a sort of geeky thing to rant about but I have a feeling that having a taboo on ad hominem type arguments works in favor of giving a bigger megaphone to loudmouth rightwing lunatics and pollutes the discourse.  Because you’re not supposed to say “Oh, he’s a fucking lunatic, he’s demonstrated that 5978 times already, ignore him.”

Comment #43: daisyparker  on  09/20  at  07:35 PM

I don’t know what to make of the similarity, but Paul Rosenberg’s cultural contradiction of conservatism reminded me of Daniel Mendelsohn’s chief criticism of Jonathan Littell’s The Kindly Ones (a novel which, like Mendelsohn, I really liked). Littell’s novel takes he form of an extended self-portrait (very extended; it’s nearly a thousand pages long) of a Nazi perpetrator, a fictional SS officer named Maximilian Aue.  Mendelsohn suggests that Littell’s book seems to make two contradictory points about Aue: that he is an example of the banality of evil, a perfectly ordinary man who does horrible things, and that he is the example of an existentially transgressive individual living beyond morality (like the classical Orestes, who is referenced in the title and throughout the book).  Mendelsohn argues that each of these aspects of Aue’s character are convincingly drawn, but taken together they contradict each other. 

(I should say that when I say that I don’t know what to make of the comparison between Mendelsohn’s argument about Littell and Rosengerg’s argument about conservatives I mean it. I don’t mean to be drawing any kind of arcane similarity between teabaggers and Nazis.  I still don’t buy the Orcinus argument that we’re seeing the emergence of an American fascism. Nor do I think that one could unproblematically use a twenty-first century novel about Nazism as evidence of Nazism.  Finally, while Mendelssohn is suggesting a failure in Littell’s portrait—it would be hard for a character to be both a banally ordinary person and an astoundingly transgressive one—Rosenberg is discussing the inner thoughts of conservatives. Still, the comparison seemed interesting to me, though I obviously don’t know what to make of it.)

Comment #44: Ben Alpers  on  09/20  at  07:37 PM

There are actually extremely few examples (only one that I can think of off hand - in Germany) of people literally voting in a dictator.

Actually, they didn’t.  The Nazis got about 1/3rd of the vote, IIRC.  What happened was that the Weimar conservatives got together and handed power over to Hitler on the assumption that they could control him and use him to prevent the Communists and other assorted leftists from taking over.  That turned out to be a really, really big mistake on their part.

When they were still part of a multi-party system, the Nazis never broke 50%.  They were only able to get a majority by banning all of the other political parties and becoming a one-party state, which is not a democracy, to say the least.

Comment #45: Mnemosyne  on  09/20  at  07:41 PM

Similarly, “Ayn Rand thought murderous psychopaths were awesome therefore the value of her social philosophy is suspect” isn’t logically watertight either, and like I said, I think it does technically count as ad hominem. But it’s a pretty valuable thing to point out.

I’m sorry, but I don’t think you’re right.  The point isn’t that Ayn Rand thought murderous psychopaths were awesome in general, it’s that she based her philosophy around psychopaths being images of human perfection.  If you look at her heroes and heroines, they’re all psychopaths who have no genuine interest in the people around them except in how those people can benefit them.

It’s a fine distinction, but I don’t think we’re saying that her philosophy sucks because she was a bad person who lionized psychopaths.  We’re saying that her philosophy sucks because it lionizes psychopaths as its premise.

Comment #46: Mnemosyne  on  09/20  at  07:52 PM

sociopaths don’t feel human empathy, but for whatever reason, most of them enjoy manipulating people.  They intellectually understand the pain, but they don’t feel it.  Most of them, from what I understand, enjoy showing off how they can manipulate normal people.

I have a feeling it has to do with recognizing that horrifying and hurting people is something they can do skillfully and effectively, and most people enjoy feeling competent and successful. I don’t know how it feels to enjoy hurting people or what it’s like not to care at all how they feel, but I do know I like doing what I’m good at doing just because I’m good at it.

Comment #47: junk science  on  09/20  at  07:56 PM

It’s a fine distinction, but I don’t think we’re saying that her philosophy sucks because she was a bad person who lionized psychopaths.  We’re saying that her philosophy sucks because it lionizes psychopaths as its premise.

yeah, then you’re right, that’s not ad hom.

But the thing is, I think even if you were saying her philosophy can be dismissed because she lionized psychopaths, that’s, you know, a point people should probably consider, even though that WOULD be ad hom. I just think that discourse in general and in the media shouldn’t evaluate ideas outside of the context of the people who hold them all the time. It’s a fine ideal, but in practice it’s pretty useful to know if the person advocating idea X is a known liar, or in the pay of company Y, or thinks psychopaths are awesome. If idea X doesn’t suck it can find someone credible to advocate it.

Comment #48: daisyparker  on  09/20  at  08:02 PM

Do other countries have as many absolutists who want a government based in a single principle instead of a general goal of maximizing the freedom and security of its residents?

I have a working theory: the United States was, in no small part, founded by people who were trying to get away from authority and those people had a disproportionate effect on the way the national thinking went, added to be subsequent waves of people also fleeing some authority.  This was combined with the mythology of the frontier and west: if you didn’t like something you could always head West and get away from it.  Not that all that many people actually did, but we’re talking mythology here.

The end result is a country where one of the strongest driving forces is the assumption that the Man is either out to get you or just a bad day away from it, so the most important thing is to make sure you can defend yourself against that.  And if you assume that’s the case, then anything that strengthens that authority represents a personal threat.

In Canada, by contrast, we were mostly settled by Europeans as part of national or commercial projects.  We needed a solid infrastructure to survive a less hospitable part of the continent, and so had an interest in making sure society and its organs functioned effectively.  Combine that with the bunch of lunatics to the south who kept invading us (and so required us to depend on government for our defense) and you get the Canadian emphasis on Peace, Order, and Good Government.

Americans are fixated on defending themselves against government, assuming its bad.  Caandians assume we need government, so focus on making it work well.

Comment #49: KeithM  on  09/20  at  08:04 PM

I just think that discourse in general and in the media shouldn’t evaluate ideas outside of the context of the people who hold them all the time.

I feel pretty safe saying I would think mutilating and killing little girls is a bad thing regardless of who agreed or disagreed with me. I don’t see why an idea couldn’t just be judged as how well or poorly it fits a particular moral or logical context.

Comment #50: junk science  on  09/20  at  08:09 PM

Sorry, “judged on.”

Comment #51: junk science  on  09/20  at  08:09 PM

50:
Because lots of ideas aren’t as cut and dried as “murder is bad” and it takes time to evaluate them. And there are a lot of ideas out there.

If you know idea X is largely advocated by liars and lunatics, you’ve got a very valuable heuristic there to help you sort through all the information that gets thrown at you every day: ignore idea X till someone I have some reason to respect speaks up for it.

Comment #52: daisyparker  on  09/20  at  08:14 PM

ignore idea X till someone I have some reason to respect speaks up for it.

To a point, I guess. I don’t think there’s anyone in the world I agree with about everything. I would need a lot more than just the word of someone I respected to decide on the merit of an idea. Objectivism would still be a disgusting worldview if Ayn Rand were a generous, thoughtful, likable person.

Comment #53: junk science  on  09/20  at  08:21 PM

Gee, maybe the answer is to use paper for ransom notes which was stacked by the clerk at Kinko’s.  Therefore, your fingerprints aren’t on it, someone else’s are. raspberry

Comment #54: Crissa  on  09/20  at  08:21 PM

I just think that discourse in general and in the media shouldn’t evaluate ideas outside of the context of the people who hold them all the time. It’s a fine ideal, but in practice it’s pretty useful to know if the person advocating idea X is a known liar, or in the pay of company Y, or thinks psychopaths are awesome. If idea X doesn’t suck it can find someone credible to advocate it.

Oh, I’m not disagreeing about that.  We have somehow managed to lose the idea of “consider the source” when an idea is presented in public and now have to pretend that every idea comes out of a vacuum.

Comment #55: Mnemosyne  on  09/20  at  08:27 PM

I’d never say anyone working for someone was a sociopath ,or even stupid. Well, certainly not a sociopath.

So Ayn Rand didn’t actually come up with her own ideas but was only a writer-for-hire for someone else?  That’s certainly a fascinating idea.  Who is this person that Rand was the ghost writer for, and why was s/he letting Rand take the credit for his/her diary entries?

Comment #56: Mnemosyne  on  09/20  at  08:28 PM

“a) Joe and Jane Six Pack, the salt of the earth who are pushing back against the evils perpetuated by the liberal elites, who you can tell are evil because they think they’re so smart and ignore the homespun wisdom of Joe and Jane.  Joe and Jane’s very lack of extraordinariness is their greatest virtue.  They are Christian, conformist, and incredibly hostile to sexual deviancy.  Sarah Palin sneering at anyone who had too much erudition or sophistication to be just folks is straight out of the right wing populist handbook.”

Joe ‘N Jane sound like the kind of people who would appreciate this the homespun wisdom of something like this:  Wenn ich Kultur höre ... entsichere ich meinen Browning!

(...I assume this thread is a Godwin-approved free fire zone…)

Comment #57: MikeEss  on  09/20  at  08:29 PM

“I really wouldn’t feel comfortable having you diagnose a discoid lupus lesionon my patients ,because I don’t think you have any special knowledge or trainingin that kind of stuff.”

...and I really wouldn’t feel comfortable having you diagnose anything, given your inability to spell properly and/or type correctly.  And it doesn’t matter to me how much education, training, and experience you may or may not have. 

But then, I guess I’m just an asshole that way…

Comment #58: MikeEss  on  09/20  at  08:34 PM

From Rand’s notes quoted from the “Romancing the Stone-Cold Killer” page:

What had society to offer him? A wretched, insane family as the ideal home, a Y.M.C.A. club as social honor, and a bank-page job as ambition and career…
If he had any desires and ambitions—what was the way before him? A long, slow, soul-eating, heart-wrecking toil and struggle; the degrading, ignoble road of silent pain and loud compromises….

Wait—I thought that a superman overcame adversity and stood apart from others due to his competency. I’m confused: how can the drudgery of mundane existence hold back the ubermensch? “A strong man can eventually trample society under his feet,” says Rand. This kid isn’t a superman: he’s a victim in her eyes.

But that’s just more confusing. If the kid’s a victim, Rand is indulging in the sympathy for the weak that requires her to grant the world more worth than it deserves.

It seems our economic policy was shaped by minds that were in turn shaped by an overwrought prequel to Charles Manson aficionados. There’s no philosophy here, no system. Why would supermen work with, or care about, other supermen? If you have a solipsistic outlook you’re not going to admire another solipsist. This is a notion that hasn’t escaped the grasp of that legendary philosophical visionary George Lucas: there can never be more than two Sith Lords because they immediately fall out and struggle over power as soon as number three hits the scene.

There it is: empirical proof that Episode One is more metaphysically sound than The Fountainhead. You heard it here first.

(Yes, the philosophical visionary bit was meant to be ironic. It seemed more amusing without the quotes.)

Comment #59: No One of Consequence  on  09/20  at  08:42 PM

Could you list three Randian characters who are SP’s ,list generalized traits that lead you to think this and perhaps a reason why these characters are sociopaths ?

Certainly.  Here’s the DSM-IV description of a sociopath:

1.  Since the age of fifteen there has been a disregard for and violation of the rights of others,  those rights considered normal by the local culture,  as indicated by at least three of the following:

    A.  Repeated acts that could lead to arrest.

    B.  Conning for pleasure or profit,  repeated lying,  or the use of aliases.

    C.  Failure to plan ahead or being impulsive.

    D.  Repeated assaults on others.

    E.  Reckless when it comes to their or others’ safety.

    F.  Poor work behavior or failure to honor financial obligations.

    G.  Rationalizing the pain they inflict on others.

2.  At least eighteen years in age.

3.  Evidence of a Conduct Disorder,  with its onset before the age of fifteen.

4.  Symptoms not due to another mental disorder.

Howard Roark and Dominique Francon in The Fountainhead are pretty classic sociopaths.  They wantonly destroy other people’s property, decide that their romance is more important than maintaining any other relationships in their lives, act impulsively, endanger the lives of others, and refuse to follow through on the work and financial obligations that they incur.  You only need to meet 3 of the criteria to be a classic sociopath and both Roark and Francon demonstrate at least 5 each in the course of the book.

It’s slightly less evident in the case of John Galt in Atlas Shrugged, but only because the book is structured as a mystery told by someone who’s a sociopath herself.  Basically, Galt sets himself up to be dictator by deliberately destroying the world and then sitting back waiting to be called back in to save everyone because he knows that he is the most important person in the world and everyone needs to be subordinate to him.  The suffering of others is completely meaningless to him—all that matters is that he is given supreme power over everyone else.

Any other details you need?

Comment #60: Mnemosyne  on  09/20  at  08:45 PM

I feel pretty safe saying I would think mutilating and killing little girls is a bad thing regardless of who agreed or disagreed with me.

Agreed. To use my earlier example, it’s somewhat unfair from an historian’s viewpoint to consider Rand’s speed habit as a contradiction to her notion of herself as a superior being, because at the time it was widely assumed, and not just by Objectivists, that superior beings (e.g. railroad tycoons, metal-alloy moguls, Russian emigre writer/philosophers) could handle speed. So in that case we don’t judge her by the standards of our time.

However, it’s perfectly fair to point out the contradiction between lionising a sociopathic killer as one of her fellow superior beings, because it’s never been widely assumed, including by honest libertarians, that sociopathic murder is a good thing. And by “widely” I exclude sociopaths, bringing us full-circle to Amanda’s point.

Because lots of ideas aren’t as cut and dried as “murder is bad” and it takes time to evaluate them

Indeed. A shame that Rand happened to choose opposition to that very cut-and-tried idea as a means to demonstrate what a “transgressive” and “independent” thinker she was. It’s a bad habit that’s been picked up by many of her followers in the intervening years.

Comment #61: Gracchus.  on  09/20  at  08:48 PM

54: I’m not saying it’s a good thing to automatically believe an idea when a person you respect speaks up for it.

Only the converse, that it’s useful to automatically dismiss an idea without further consideration when everyone who speaks up for it is someone you’ve got a good reason to distrust. If someone you respect speaks up for it, then you might want to spend some valuable time thinking about it.

But this discussion’s getting a bit abstract, I really just meant what Mnem said at #56. Considering the source of an argument is ad hominem but I think it should be done a lot more, it might filter some bullshit out from mainstream discourse.

Comment #62: daisyparker  on  09/20  at  08:50 PM

Oh, and corwin, I hate to break it to you, but the people that Rand writes about in her four novels are fictional characters.  They don’t actually exist.  That’s why it’s easier to “diagnose” them than it is a real live person—because they only exist as words on a page (or images in a film) and don’t have any confounding factors.

Comment #63: Mnemosyne  on  09/20  at  08:51 PM

DTG in STL:

We are a democratic republic ..  tempered by the judiciary ...

... with a significant oligarchal ancestry and occasional fits of sociopathic mania confusingly mixed with compassionate altruism.

Just because we may like you doesn’t mean that we don’t know that you’re nuts.  (Blows kisses.)

Comment #64: seeker6079  on  09/20  at  08:58 PM

Hmm, I didn’t actually mean converse. I hate myself for feeling the need to issue this correction.

Comment #65: daisyparker  on  09/20  at  08:59 PM

daisyparker:

I agree that ad homs get a bad rap, but I would draw a different distinction.  An ad hominem attack will not (and in fact cannot) tell you anything about the soundness of the target’s argument.  On the other hand, it could tell you something about the target’s judgment and credibility, good faith, etc.  Rand’s arguments will be sound or unsound independently of whether or not she was a sociopath, but we will have reason to question whether her inferences and empirical claims are true if she is a sociopath.

Comment #66: Thom  on  09/20  at  09:11 PM

Here’s the DSM-IV description of a sociopath:

It’s almost useless quoting DSM-IV at a wingnut—they’re still bitter that DSM-II removed homosexuality from the list of mental disorders. That said…

I hate to break it to you, but the people that Rand writes about in her four novels are fictional characters.

There’s an interdisciplinary area of study that considers such diagnoses using fairly rigorous criteria (at least as rigorous as are due theoretical diagnoses of fictional characters). One of the goals of that field is to gain insights into the author’s own psychological state.

As to clinical situations with real patients, that’s why MD degrees and medical licenses exist. As my uncle, a distinguished medical specialist and conservative once told me, the presence of those things allow one to consider other questions about a physician. For example, he advised me that if I found a doctor spending more time obsessing about money and politics than about medical options and outcomes, I should run the other way no matter where he got that degree.

For a long time, I thought those kind of doctors were thin on the ground. Lately, though, I’ve been seeing a lot of them making the rounds in the MSM and in Internet forums.

Comment #67: Gracchus.  on  09/20  at  09:12 PM

OK, corwin, how would you, with your inestimable wisdom and education, classify a man who kidnapped a child, ransomed her, collected the ransom, then drove off a half block and dumped HALF of her body on the street in front of her dad, while hiding the rest of her body all around LA?  The half of a body he dumped was propped up and had wires under the eyes to keep them open so she still looked lifelike while he collected the ransom.

This is the boy full of heady idealism and rebellion against society that Rand lauds and thinks of as human perfection.

Come on.  How do you describe William Hickman, and the woman who despite, or perhaps because of, knowing his crimes thinks he’s what all humans should strive for?  Perfectly sane, rational, reasonable people with differences of opinion that should be respected?

How do you think the DSMIV would classify them?

Comment #68: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  09/20  at  09:39 PM

I think the answer to the original observation comes in significant part with Princess Rot’s observation in #21. If you read Rand and believe it, you can either believe that you’re one of the uebermenschen, whose life involves enormous amounts of sturm, drang, screwing over other people and not listening to them even when they make good arguments, or else you’re cannon fodder, destined to be miserably ground underfoot in your futile opposition to the destined rulers of the world. Relatively few people believe the latter, so they have to come instead to the understanding that being a rank-and-file nobody from Middle America is in fact the state of being an uebermensch—perhaps because they went Galt in the womb and are thus withholding their talents from a thankless world…

If you take their arguments at face value, anti-choicers are the purest expression of right wing populism: They argue that abortion and sexual liberation in general are selfish, and have be stomped out because they’re evidence of individuals prizing themselves over the collective.

This passage is particularly telling, because of course anti-choicers and sanctity-of-marriage types are right up there getting abortions and cheating on their spouses. And they’re doing it because their case is different. But of course no one else’s is. So you’re back around to the sociopath thing, with self above all and complete lack of empathy for anyone else…

Comment #69: paul  on  09/20  at  10:23 PM

I think this side discussion about ad homeium attacks is coming from the conflict of two different schools of thought about what constitutes a good argument.  The modern incarnation of “a good argument” is a logically sound, internally consist, argument that corresponds to facts.  But, the ancient Greeks had a very different idea- that with ethos, logos, and pathos.  The modern discussion says that attacking someone doesn’t adjust the credibility of the argument.  This is very true.  But, it is an extremely EFFECTIVE argument (as opposed to a correct one) to attack a persons ethos.  Modern arguments basically stripped away the reputation and emotional appeals and left the logic.

I’m not sure which one is better, really.  I rather suspect it depends on if you want to be correct, and no one listens to you, or doing things that you know aren’t factually correct but everyone follows you (ends and means, you know). 

I really like threads around here smile.

Comment #70: Antigone  on  09/20  at  11:06 PM

The more I hear about Rand’s life, the more I am inclined to picture her as a sort of folk villain, larger and more depraved than life.  I’m sure she’d be proud of having captured my imagination.

Comment #71: realityfighter  on  09/20  at  11:56 PM

I find the whole Rand-Greenspan thing fascinating. 

First, Rand.  It says a great deal about the American right that they worship a very ugly woman—they seem to find ugliness unforgivable in any other woman, e.g. Dworkin— who believes in supermen who grind people underfoot and who worshipped a child slaughtering, grief-tormenting monster.  (There are TONS of women like that, and serial killers get fan mail from them, but, good lord nobody takes them seriously. )  Shit, even Hitler believed that that there was an importance to community in and of itself and if you find yourself to the right of Hitler you are arguably insane.

Second, Greenspan, who was an acolyte of hers and knew her socially.  Think about that.  The man who was, for decades, one of the most powerful figures over the American government was a fetishist for lunatic right-wing extremist who loathed the concepts of religion and altruism.

Yeesh.  The righties whine that government is oh-so-left!  A presidential appointee of marginal importance just had to resign because he had been of the socialist left in his teens and signed a dotty petition.  The chairman of the federal reserve was a fan of an extreme rightist and it wasnt even discussed let alone considered significant.  Can you imagine a comparable democrat getting a bye on adoring a person who hated Jesus and despised looking after your neighbour?

America iz puzzling. It believes in a lot of socialist ideas in practice but will not admit it and will not discuss it and looks the other way past right-wing crazies.

Comment #72: seeker6079  on  09/21  at  12:23 AM

It should surpise no-one that William Edward Hickman is not mentioned in the Rand Wkiki entry.  With seriou, serious money flowing into and out of Randist propagation organizations it would surprise me if it lasted long if included.

Comment #73: seeker6079  on  09/21  at  12:27 AM

This contradiction had been tickling the outer edge of my consciousness.  Thanks for setting it out so clearly. 

The GOP isn’t much of a big tent, but conservatism is a big enough tent to hold both Joe & Jane AND the Randians, who share very little philosophical common ground.  I don’t think they’re the same people.  Look at the Democracts: Arlen Spector and Al Franken are both Democratic Senators.

It’s the split that will finally, I think, do the GOP in.  Joe & Jane would be disgusted by Ayn Rand’s philosophy if they were familiar with it, but they don’t like paying taxes.  The Randians, who really hold power in the GOP, sell them a package that includes “family values” which has no logical or ideological connection to taxes one way or another.  No one loves paying taxes, the middle class least of all, so it works.  Until it doesn’t.

DKos had a poll this morning showing that the teabag rallies and townhall craziness in August increased support for universal health care.  Why?  Because I think Joe & Jane, as well as their Independent and Democratic-but-not-too-sure neighbors, looked at what was showing up calling itself the opposition and did NOT identify with it, because it did not look virtuous or conventional.

Comment #74: MadLibrarian  on  09/21  at  12:58 AM

I always enjoy pointing out to glibertarian-conservative types that Rand’s philosophy still lives on in the teachings and work of one of her most devoted acolytes, one Anton Szandor La Vey, the founder of the Church of Satan. That’s right, kids. Modern “Satanism” is nothing more than—in La Vey’s words—“the philosophy of Rand dressed up with ritual and ceremony.” Aleister Crowley’s dictum “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law” also seems to fit the mood of a lot of the Randian types quite well, too. All hail our great Dark Lord!

Comment #75: jonas  on  09/21  at  01:38 AM

Someone above mentioned that increases in the labor pool lowered wages such that single-wage earner families are impossible today. Conservatives sometimes blame taxes, though taxes are lower now than in the supposed golden age of the 50s to mid-60s. THIS IS NOT TRUE!. Go to a neighbourhood that was the epitome of lower middle class succes in in the 50s-60s. It is now likely a rundown wasteland unless it has undergone partial gentrification or has become a Boho or DINK widlife preserve. LOOK HOW SMALL THE HOUSES AND LOTS ARE!

Ask your parents or grandparents how great things were back then. Ask what kind of vacations they took. As them how many TV channels they got. Learn how unvaried their diet was.

A great many families gould go single earner just fine if they were willing to accept mid-60s standards of living. But remember po’ folks didn’t have it so good. They took whatever income they could get with two earners.

I do not mean to disparage the modern state of affairs by pointing this out. Women having better access to employment is just plain right; You know, women are, like, real human beings ,and stuff. I merely mean to point out that a great many of the conservatives who complain that the single earner family of days of yore is now impossible are simply wrong. A great many of these conservatives could easily afford an early 60s standard of living if they’d make some difficult choices.

Comment #76: Bacopa  on  09/21  at  02:14 AM

Rand did write romance-by-rape in Fountainhead, after all.

Off topic I know, but I think it’s funny that in the scene in Dirty Dancing where Baby approaches Robbie to get his help to pay for Penny’s abortion, Robbie gives Baby a well-worn copy of the Fountainhead, which solidifies the douchbaggery of the Robbie character for the audience and Baby.

Comment #77: shakahi  on  09/21  at  03:49 AM

If housepets were libertarians (applies to Randites, too):

http://www.leftycartoons.com/if-housepets-were-libertarians/

Comment #78: MS  on  09/21  at  10:30 AM

When I was in high school, a bunch of us fell under Rand’s spell.  Honestly, we weren’t a bunch of budding sociopaths (although I can certainly see how her “philosophy” could appeal to such, and how it could even turn you into one if you stuck with it for too long).  What we were was intelligent (no geniuses in the group, but well above average), but socially awkward and isolated.  Good grades, but we were band or orchestra geeks instead of jocks, were in the chess, or Latin, or physics club, definitely not on the Student Council and absolutely not among the cool kids.  We felt underappreciated (except perhaps by a few of the teachers, which made our estrangement from our peers even worse).  I’ve got be honest and say we weren’t a particularly studly bunch; nothing grotesque, but a few extra pounds among us, and heir to the skin issues of adolescence (the one girl in the group was actually pretty attractive, but otherwise fit in with the group like a glove).  What Rand offered was the certainty that we were really the superior ones, and that eventually this would be clear and we would rise to the top.  This will come as no surprise to anyone reading this, I’m sure.
We’re now all middle-aged.  The ones I’m still in touch with are all, like me, pretty left-wing in their politics.  In my case college exposed me to lots of new ideas, and then I lived in El Salvador for a couple of years and saw a bit of what the real world could be like outside of the sheltered USA.  A couple of guys turned out to be gay, which I’m sure had something to do with their turnaround.  While of varying degrees of success in the conventional sense, everyone’s life has been very interesting and, I think, pretty satisfying.  Ironically, while Rand devoted unquestioning allegiance from those in her circle, she actually did help me realize that it was OK to be an individualist, and to go my own way with regard to my life and career.  I will confess a small amount of appreciation for that (even if she didn’t practice what she preached), but I am very glad to have cast off the rest.

Comment #79: MS  on  09/21  at  11:02 AM

Corwin exits, stage right, the tag end of his PhD in clinical psych trailing from his anus…

Comment #80: jjcomet  on  09/21  at  11:19 AM

Although I think Rand described crony capitalism better than most writers, something most of her fans seem to be unconscious of, apparently she did not understand the theme of José Ortega y Gasset’s ‘Revolt of the Masses.’

Comment #81: mnsr  on  09/21  at  04:05 PM

But then, I guess I’m just an asshole that way…

Insert (futile) plea for less snideness and assholeishness on the Intertubes.  Do we have to call each other names and put each other down to make our points?  Speaking of ad hominem.

Why do comments sections invariably devolve into re-imaginings of the Monty Python’s “Argument Clinic” sketch?

<blockquote>The modern discussion says that attacking someone doesn’t adjust the credibility of the argument.  This is very true.  But, it is an extremely EFFECTIVE argument (as opposed to a correct one) to attack a persons ethos.  Modern arguments basically stripped away the reputation and emotional appeals and left the logic. <blockquote>

You must be new here… wink

Corwin exits, stage right, the tag end of his PhD in clinical psych trailing from his anus…

QED.

Comment #82: liberalrob  on  09/21  at  05:37 PM

Ignorant and maybe off topic question: What means MRA?

Comment #83: Jebediah  on  09/21  at  08:35 PM

“What means MRA?”

Men’s Rights Advocates…

Comment #84: MikeEss  on  09/21  at  09:07 PM

liberalrob-

I meant in ideal states, not reality (clearly).  I mean, I’m hardly new here.

Comment #85: Antigone  on  09/21  at  11:47 PM

Antigone:  Yes but!  It’s true that there’s a distinction among ethos, logos, and pathos, but both the modern and ancient ideas of sound argumentation (distinguished from an effective argumentation) would say that ad homenim arguments are irrelevant except insofar as they go to credibility or emotional appeals.  We’re getting this stuff from Aristotle, after all.

The point of that is to say that analytical thinking isn’t a accident of modernity or something that would be unwelcome to ancient cultures.  Logical soundness is a very, very old idea, and we got it from the ancient Greeks.

Comment #86: Thom  on  09/22  at  12:46 AM

Man, the more I read about Rand, the more she appears to be like some kind of sociopathic nihilist straight out of Dostoyevsky…no, acually, she is more like a caricature of one! And I thought she was just a crap writer.

Comment #87: elena  on  09/22  at  01:23 AM

“Sociopathy” is just a term of art to medicalize and reinscribe Christianity (including the ersatz Channukah Christianity of humanism and modern Judaism) as a normative status, just like “gender dysphoria” is for the cisgendered. Don’t you kids read your Fouacult?

Comment #88: Senescent  on  09/22  at  04:14 AM

Bah, _Foucault_.

Comment #89: Senescent  on  09/22  at  04:16 AM

I’m a little confused here. Apparently, Hickman did this horrible thing to get back at Marion’s banker dad for testifying against Hickman about Hickman’s job performance.  Wouldn’t an actual superior human being have the courage to confront Marion’s dad and have it out with him face to face, instead of say, kidnapping a child who is a) much weaker than said superman, and b) has nothing to do with her dad’s behavior?

So, apparently, Ayn Rand believed a criminal who’s vindictive, cowardly, sadistic, greedy a pathological liar and rather stupid should be the superman who’s above all rules.  If that’s her paradise, I’ll pass, thanks.

Comment #90: Blue Jean  on  09/23  at  10:15 PM
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