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Fundies and child abuse

Lynn Harris has a bone-chilling article up at Salon about yet another incident of fundamentalist Christians taking their beliefs to an extreme and getting someone hurt or killed, usually and inevitably someone in a vulnerable position.  In this case, the story is that of 7-year-old Lydia Schatz, whose parents beat her to death using a tool—-a quarter inch plumbing supply line—-recommended by the wildly popular authors Michael and Debi Pearl, who have an entire series about “child training” for evangelical Christians.  Like James Dobson of Focus on Family, the Pearls are big on spanking kids, and not just small pats on the butt.  In both cases, the idea is to beat the kid into submission. Dobson wrote about his preferred technique like so:

[T]he spanking should be of sufficient magnitude to cause the child to cry genuinely. After the emotional ventilation, the child will often want to crumple to the breast of his parent, and he should be welcomed with open, warm, loving arms.

The Pearls take a similar stance:

Light, swatting spankings, done in anger without courtroom dignity will make children mad because they sense that they have been bullied by an antagonists. A proper spanking leaves children without breath to complain.

Naturally, some children will complain until they’re beaten to death, a situation the Pearls apparently didn’t account for.  Now they’re scrambling to avoid any moral responsibility for the death of this little girl, the severe beating of two other children.  (The ones who got it the hardest were adopted children from Liberia.) 

Lynn describes the debate going on inside the evangelical community about the Pearls, and what is considered “too far”.  It’s all very interesting, and I suggest you read her article.  But I’m going to argue that the continued debating over the line between forcing someone to submit and overt abuse that goes on in this world completely misses the point.  When you define entire classes of people, whether children or women, as existing to submit and suggest that willfulness is an evil brought upon your family by the devil, then abuse is inevitable.  The idea itself is abusive and dehumanizing.  Everything else that follows from it is simply logical. 

I’m struck, when reading right wing Christian child-rearing advice, on how much the advice resembles the tactics that wife beaters use against their victims. 


With grown women, of course, phase 3 gets a little complicated, but phase 3 is explicit stated by these spanking proponents—-once you’ve broken down your victim, everything is hugs and tears.  The Pearls highlight stage 4 as the goal of their techniques, it appears. 

“The focus when their teachings are promoted isn’t on the spanking, but on the ‘tying heartstrings’ and enjoying your kids,” says Alexandra Bush. “It is easy to filter out the harsher teachings, the extremism, when surrounded by word pictures of peaceful, loving, fun families. The Pearls seem to tell parents that they just have to ‘win’ once and make sure their children know who is in charge, and then they will never have to spank again. That’s how parents get sucked in—promises of a fun, peaceful home, minimal confrontation, doing the ‘right thing’ for their children. Basically, the BS detectors are turned off by the pretty promises that are made.”

Well, yeah.  Everyone enjoys phase 4, but then the person beaten into submission starts to act like a human being again, seeking to control their own life and express their individuality, and things get tense again, and then there’s a beating.  Abuse exists because abusers desire complete control over their victims.  I fail to see how Christian child rearing manuals that replace terms like “rearing” or “nurturing” with their preferred term “training” can be considered anything but abuse.  The very idea that another human being should be trained, that their will should be completely subject to yours, is abuse by definition.  The Pearls aren’t exactly wrong when they argue that you can only completely control a person by beating them until “crying turns to a true, wounded, submissive whimper”.  The problem is the premise, accepted even by many of their critics, that children should be so thoroughly controlled.  (And that wives should be obedient.) 

Not to say that this issue isn’t confusing, even for liberal or secular parents.  Kids don’t know how to behave, and they need their parents to guide them.  I’m the last person who thinks that a child should never be controlled, particularly when your 4-year-old that you’ve brought to a fancy Italian restaurant keeps running into my table and splashing wine and sending the bottle tipping into precarious positions that cause me to completely drop the pleasant adult conversation I’m having to rescue myself, my companion and your 4-year-old from having wine spilled all over us.  I have zero issue with picking the child up, putting them in their seat and telling them they either stop running around or privileges will immediately start to disappear, or whatever other non-abusive form of discipline is the thing now.  In fact, I beg you to do it.  Sometimes the little ones, be they pets or people, in our care need to have decisions made for them, as well.  But that’s a far different cry from the fundamentalist Christian view, where children exist to glorify you and your belief system, and their beings are subject to that.  I imagine that parents who give their children the right to be individuals and whose goal is to move their children towards being able to make more and more of their own decisions end up being frustrated a lot less than fundamentalist parents, who are encouraged to see every bit of non-submissive behavior as the devil’s work.  And who see every attraction to pop culture as a threat, whereas most parents tend to feel neutral about large swaths of that. 

I’m just blown away by how much the wife beater’s M.O. is actually taught as the moral pathway when it comes to child rearing in the fundamentalist culture.  Wife beaters use various tactics to separate their victims from outside influences that might keep their victims from submitting completely to their control; fundies are openly concerned with outside influences and create entire industries to shield their children from them, as well as embrace home schooling.  Wife beaters are paranoid, seeing threats to their control even when they aren’t there, and escalating the amount of time they spend monitoring their victims.  Again, this is treated as the best way to raise your children in fundie circles, which is another reason home schooling is such a big deal.  And of course, the cycle of abuse is glorified as the right way to get children to submit in fundie circles.  Which is why I’m never surprised when something like this murder happens.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:53 PM • (366) Comments

What’s striking to me is how similar the “use the rod” philosophy is to right-wing justifications of torture.  There’s no indication that it works - kids who get hit don’t grow up more successful, say, or more emotionally stable, than kids who don’t - and there’s no concern for the serious damage it can cause.  There’s only a thin, vague philosophical justification that is a transparent fig-leaf for the desire to behave violently towards someone entirely in your thrall.

Comment #1: thewanderingjew  on  02/23  at  01:25 PM

Wow, what a tragedy.  Whole generations resigned to a life of abuse at the hands of the very people who are supposedly the protectors.  Children are not stupid and they know on a base level such treatment is f’ed up.  Until that magical moment when they decide it’s actually the norm.  Child abusers, rapists, and other violent criminals are manufactured, not born.  Shit like this breaks my heart every time I hear or see it.

Comment #2: Prankaplegic  on  02/23  at  01:25 PM

“I imagine that parents who give their children the right to be individuals and whose goal is to move their children towards being able to make more and more of their own decisions end up being frustrated a lot less than fundamentalist parents, who are encouraged to see every bit of non-submissive behavior as the devil’s work.”

That’s brilliant.  And it’s a dynamic that is true about relationships and abuse in general; you won’t abuse someone, and you’ll have a much better relationship with them, if you see them as distinct individuals.  Be they children, women or men.

Comment #3: Lurker  on  02/23  at  01:26 PM

“If you strike a child, take care that you strike it in anger, even at the risk of maiming it for life. A blow in cold blood neither can nor should be forgiven.”

Bernard Shaw

Comment #4: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/23  at  01:27 PM

Cue the folks who were spanked and “turned out fine”.

Specific to child-rearing my issue is that hitting kids does dual damage: it hurts the child in that moment and possibly forever, but it also harms the one doing the hitting. Acting in violence (no matter how bloodless or ostensibly calculated as ‘discipline’) creates an inner ugliness, a bleakness. It makes you a shittier person from the inside out. So you harm someone small and weak, you harm yourself, and you harm the world by adding to the shitbag quotient. The whole thing is miserable and sad.

Comment #5: mir  on  02/23  at  01:43 PM

Cue the folks who were spanked and “turned out fine”.

I hate it when people make that argument.  I was NOT spanked and turned out better than fine - I’d say I turned out very well.  Maybe this is the counter to the “I turned out fine” trope.

Comment #6: Richard Goblin  on  02/23  at  01:47 PM

I know this is kind of an incosequential sort of quibble, but a plumbing supply line is not a tool. 

Maybe I will be able to say something more pertinent later, but beyond these people are really sick, which is so much too weak as to be sickening itself, I can’t even start.

Comment #7: helen w. h.  on  02/23  at  01:52 PM

I was listening to the focus on family radio show while in a cab last week and I almost threw up.  They had some woman on (I think she’d been on Facts of Life?) and she was talking about how she spanked her kids.  She was talking about how it was always a considered thing, they never just hit the kid in the heat of the moment, how they would apply it like any other punishment where they would both go calm down and then the kid would apologize and then they would get spanked.  At which point I’m like “WHY NOT COME UP WITH ANOTHER PUNISHMENT HALLOOOOO.”

But then she told this horrifying story about how the kid was about to go play in a game or some kind of competition or something and he wasn’t feeling very confident, and then she THREATENED TO SPANK HIM to get rid of his lack of confidence.  Of course he said he was feeling much more confident then.

That is just all kinds of messed up.

Comment #8: shinobi42  on  02/23  at  01:55 PM

I don’t think it’s just fundamentalist parents who think this way.  My parents used the threat of “the board” to enforce discipline (a 15-inch piece of 1-by-2) and their closest friends joked about “applying the board of education to the seat of knowledge.”  While Christian, they weren’t fundamentalist.  As far as I know the whole phenomenon of the utility of corporal punishment was not really questioned in the “mainstream” until the 60’s or 70’s.  It seems controversial now but back then it was just how it was done.

Comment #9: liberalrob  on  02/23  at  01:57 PM

“If you strike a child, take care that you strike it in anger, even at the risk of maiming it for life. A blow in cold blood neither can nor should be forgiven.”

I suspect that George Bernard Shaw had no personal experience of receiving a beating in anger as a child - but given the era in which he lived, the odds are high that he had either experienced or witnessed a cold-blooded disciplinary beating at school.

Twenty years ago I quoted that line to a close friend, who looked at me and looked away and told me that his father had been in the habit of hitting him in anger when he was a small boy, and had literally knocked him off his feet into a wall more than once.

I don’t think there can ever be said to be a good way of hitting a child.

I can and I do have some sympathy for parents under extreme stress (being a parent on a low income is a horrifyingly tough situation to be in) who snap and hit out - without thinking their hitting their child is in any way justified or in any way a good thing. If they’re people I can respect, they won’t think hitting their child in a temper was a good thing either.

Comment #10: Jesurgislac  on  02/23  at  01:58 PM

I think that the people who were spanked and “turned out fine” did so *in spite* of being spanked, certainly not *because* of it.  Turning out fine isn’t an argument for spanking.  It’s like saying that since some people “turn out fine” after growing up in extreme poverty, that we should all live in poverty.  It’s ridiculous on its face, but in these debates you will get otherwise reasonable people defending having been hit by their parents with real sincerity.

I’ll go ahead and say that I was spanked, and had I been spanked infrequently and in the context of a functional, warm, loving family environment, I still probably would have “turned out fine”, but again, that would have been in spite of having been spanked, not because of.  As it was, I was spanked fairly frequently (though not “abusively” - i.e., not with implements or leaving marks) by authoritarian parents in the context of an emotionally dysfunctional home and only after years of therapy am I “fine”.  The spanking in this case was just part and parcel of what Amanda talks about, growing up feeling that I had no rights as an individual, that I was utterly subject to my parents’ whim, down to the expressions I was required to have on my face.

My parents grew up fundie and I do connect this ‘discipline style’ to fundamentalist Christianity.  It’s poisonous and a huge contributor to the popularity of authoritarian ideas in this country, in my opinion.  If you grow up being explicitly told that parents who don’t hit their kids, who “spoil” them, are the bad, permissive parents, and that only through pain and submission can one find goodness, true family values, and salvation…well, that gets translated into your politics, unless you’re lucky enough to find another way when your mind is still able to be open to alternatives.

Comment #11: teabea  on  02/23  at  01:58 PM

I’d like to make spanking illegal, but that would be hard to get past state legislatures. A good intermediate step would be to outlaw hitting children with plumbing supply lines, belts, shoes, or any such object.

Comment #12: Spike  on  02/23  at  01:58 PM

Shino, sounds like the woman who used to play Blair, the conventionally pretty blonde one on Facts of Life.  She turned into a right wing religious whack and left hollywood.  Like Kurt Cameron.

Comment #13: JennyLI  on  02/23  at  02:00 PM

It’s not just Fundies, though.  This kind of upbringing (you are here to glorify your parents’ existence and any bit of individuality that doesn’t conform to that must be stamped out in any means possible) explains mine to a T, and my mother was not religious in the least.  We went to church briefly, but only because that’s what a good family is “supposed” to do, not because my mother had any particular religious feeling.  My father didn’t even pretend to go along with that experiment and stayed home.

I’ve only recently, well into my adult life, come to understand that my mother was suffering from a pretty clear case of Borderline Personality Disorder and that my upbringing was actually very common for children in that scenario.  The thing is, it sounds very similar to what you’re describing here.  It seems to me that fundamentalism is just one more justification for that authoritarian pathology.  My mother didn’t even bother to try and justify it - she was the mom, I was the kid and whatever she “had to do” to make me do whatever it was she thought I should be doing that particular day, so be it.

If I see a difference, it’s that she didn’t have an instruction manual.  She never went so far as beating me with a plumbing tool - she stuck mostly to slaps and whacks and emotional abuse.  But I suppose that’s because she didn’t have “permission” to actually hit me.  Tough parenting as she saw fit was fine, but she was logical enough even in the midst of extreme rage to know there was a boundary.  My soul was crushed on a daily basis, but I guess I can appreciate that at least I didn’t honestly live with the fear of being killed or brutally injured.  I suppose there was always the possibility that it would escalate to that, but it seemed that Mom had an emergency shutdown switch at Anger Level 9.999 that prevented anything catastrophic.  But 9.999 is still a pretty heavy level of anger to be on the receiving end of on a regular basis.  If she had a book by “experts” saying it was actually okay to hammer me with a huge metal tool, I almost think it would have been just the push she needed to go that extra step.

I guess my point is that while it’s interesting to view this through a Christian lens like it is in this case, it seems to me that this is less a Christian problem than a human problem exacerbated by the fundamentalism.  I’m not excusing it or underplaying it, I just think that just as Amanda sees a parallel to the wife-beating cycle, I also see something very similar to a children-of-Borderline or children-of-addiction situation and it really just comes down to people who are bad parents, and the different ways they excuse it and practice it.

Comment #14: suet  on  02/23  at  02:01 PM

Really, we need a different word here. Describing attacking a child with a weapon as a “spanking” is like describing the US Treasury as “petty cash.”

I was spanked as a child. I sure as hell wasn’t attacked with a god damned length of supply line.

Comment #15: Llelldorin  on  02/23  at  02:05 PM

Oh, and those Pearls?  they advocate hitting BABIES.  You are supposed to “blanket train” infants by swatting them to keep them from crawling off the blanket, and you teach them not to touch things by deliberately steering them towards attractive forbidden objects and then hitting them when they go to touch them, and repeating this until they don’t touch.

They are sick, sick, sick.  There is one particularly chilling anecdote from their book where Mrs. Pearl describes the pleasure she derived from beating a 2-yo - not her child - who was over at her house and misbehaving.  Of course she claims that the pleasure was from setting this child on the right path, etc., but it’s transparently sadistic and truly shocking.  :(

Just to be clear, I don’t think they are the mainstream in Christian discipline - they are extreme even compared to Focus on the Family.  My fundie relatives all spank but they don’t hit babies or go to sadistic extremes like the Pearls advocate - in my opinion they are still harming their children, though.  It’s a continuum of violence.

Comment #16: teabea  on  02/23  at  02:05 PM

I’ve already heard about this on some other blogs, and I’ve been seriously thinking about it for a few days.  I wonder this type of “punishment” actually makes children more selfish and less empathetic.  For the most part, I think kids are born good and truly care about other people.  So when they share their toys, it’s because they want to make another kid happy.  When they don’t share their toys, I think it’s more often because they don’t think about how their behavior effects others.  If they share their toys only because they’re afraid of the pain that will come to the personally, that doesn’t really seem like it should “count”.  I think it’s much more effective to give “lectures”, and just try to show the child how their actions effect others.

So should it matter if a kid does the right thing because they know it’s right, or only because they fear punishment?  Some people will claim that children really can’t understand right and wrong, but I think they are really underestimating children.  And what happens when there is no longer a parent around to beat their kid into good behavior?  I guess that’s where god is supposed to take over.  It seems like it would be so much more successful if relied on people’s inherent empathy rather than fear of physical pain to get them to behave.

Comment #17: bananacat  on  02/23  at  02:06 PM

How ironic, the fundies are so scared of losing their children to “the world,” and yet beating the tar out of your kids is a great way to encourage them to move across the country and never talk to you again.

They have a section on their website about how to properly spank infants, by the way. In case you are worried that attending to your crying 6-month-old will give him an “entitled attitude.”

Comment #18: Yawgmoth  on  02/23  at  02:07 PM

This probably won’t solve any of the underlying problems, but upon reading the article, I immediately thought that maybe the Pearls should be beaten w/a god damned quarter inch plumbing supply pipe.

Comment #19: Mark  on  02/23  at  02:08 PM

In theory, I’m not anti-spanking. But I have met precious few parents who can actually spank their children without it going into the realm of abuse, so I feel that there is a fundamental flaw in the idea of spanking as it applies to human nature.

But one thing people really neglect to mention in these spank/no spank debates is that all children are different. There are children for whom “time outs” and other forms of non-physical discipline are simply not effective as a means of encouraging good behavior from your kids. Whenever I got stuck in a corner, I’d just drift off into some imaginary story in my head and be perfectly content for as long as I had to sit there. It wasn’t punishment. Going to your room… where all your toys are? How is that punishment, exactly? There is also something to be said for the fact that young kids live in the now and threatening to take away future privileges (no TV/dessert tonight) is complete nonsense when a child can’t think that far in advance.

Obviously, if you can effectively discipline your kid to encourage good behavior without performing any sort of physical discipline should be any parent’s first choice, and resorting to spanking should be the last choice. Furthermore, to effectively spank your children, there are rules that need to be followed:
1) Spanking must be on the table only for the most severe infractions: willfully harming another child or pet, breaking rules that could result in serious injury, etc. Not because a kid is fussing in the grocery store’s cereal aisle or is being a jerk about not eating their vegetables. Spankings should be exceedingly rare: if you find yourself administering them regularly (even if not often), you need to look into other methods.
2) The child must be given a warning, so that they can discontinue bad behavior by their own decision to avoid the spanking. Obviously, the child must be able to understand the warning. Spanking a pre-verbal child is always, always abuse. The spanking must be administered if the warning is not followed, empty threats are worse than no discipline at all.
3) Spankings cannot be administered in anger. You need to make sure you have control of your emotions. If you’re angry, you’re going to ignore rules, and you’re going to teach your children that violence is an appropriate response to anger. This is the one that just about EVERY parent fucks up, and is why I’m pretty down on spanking in practice.
4) Spankings are for the bottom: hitting your child any other place is a good sign you need therapy.
5) The spanking must NOT be administered via the use of a tool: you need to feel how hard you’re spanking so that you don’t overdo it. It’s really easy to beat the shit out of someone when your own hand doesn’t start smarting after the first few swats.

The thing is that there are kids who really only respond to physical discipline: Something that hurts, doesn’t “harm,” is inescapable (unlike sitting in a corner and having an imagination that takes you well away), and is immediate (being punished for something you did five hours ago is pretty ineffective for kids). Too often, lazy and abusive parents spank without exploring other options, but when you take spanking off the table, you get other forms of abuse in its place, most of them way worse than a few swats on the bottom: Look up “hot saucing” (Blaire from Facts of Life recommends it!), or weird stress-position punishments (you know, like they used in Abu Gharib!). A former friend of mine would lock her children’s dolls in the closet, because she knew that they had anthropomorphized the dolls and the point was to specifically lock the dolls in a dark, scary place. I mean, people come up with really fucked up ways to torture their kids and call it “discipline” even if they don’t lay a hand on them. Try growing up with a mom who would yell at you for fucking something up and then when you apologized tell you “sorry isn’t good enough.” I can tell you, the spankings I received for being a little shit were a lot less scarring on me than having a complex that apologies are meaningless (cuz sometimes apologizing is the only thing you can do).

Comment #20: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  02:10 PM

I was spanked and turned out fine, but it was not even comparable to what happened in this case. I think that’s always the problem when the whole spanking debate inevitably comes up in comments; “spanking” can describe a lot of different behavior, anything from a few quick butt swats to murder. I cannot be convinced that my parents did me any harm with the butt swats - they weren’t even particularly painful at the time, just shocking and embarrassing. I was the oldest and they gave it up with my siblings though, not because it was abusive so much as they had developed more effective parenting techniques.

That doesn’t have jack shit to do with the case here though.

There’s a post on the No Longer Quivering forum that addresses how using the Pearls’ techniques is spectacularly harmful for Liberian adoptees specifically. I don’t know much about the subject myself, but if the poster is accurate it just makes the story that much more tragic.

Comment #21: ElleDee  on  02/23  at  02:12 PM

I don’t have any kids, but I have a niece and nephew and if anyone beat one of them I would not hesitate to beat their asses right into the street, and then tell them to call the cops.  Man, you have to be one fucked person to think it’s okay for someone else to beat your kids.  I know that sense of entitlement was very popular way back.  Other adults should beat your kids, cops should beat your kids, nuns should beat your kids, but it’s I think pretty rare today.  That asshole is going to beat the wrong person’s kid someday.

Comment #22: JennyLI  on  02/23  at  02:14 PM

Spanking infants?  The fuck.  I can’t even begin parse how fucking wrong that is. Holy shit.

At the risk of sounding like the “I got spanked and turned out fine” chorus, I did.  But the thing is, that each child is an individual and while spanking might work for some (me), it did nothing for my sister.  Time outs worked for her, but for me, even as a toddler I was perfectly fine to sit by myself and daydream, while the enforced inactivity drove my sister into tears in less than a minute. 

Really, there is no one size fits all discipline for children. 

That said, I think people who use “tools” to beat children should be beaten in return with said items.

Comment #23: GeekGirlsRule  on  02/23  at  02:14 PM

For the most part, I think kids are born good and truly care about other people.

At least from the perspective of my two, I don’t think this is right, and can be an actively dangerous way to think. Kids aren’t born “good”, they’re born “people”—usually ones that are very much like immature versions of their parents.

If you’re expecting angels, it can be very disconcerting to have what amount to immature roommates instead. Add that to the fact that the old “OMG I’m turning into my parents” saw is if anything even more disturbing from the other side (there’s nothing like watching your kids do something that you’ve been trying to STOP doing for 30 years to drive you toward madness), and you have the perfect recipe for a disturbed parent to indulge in self-flagellation-by-proxy.

Comment #24: Llelldorin  on  02/23  at  02:23 PM

For the most part, I think kids are born good and truly care about other people.  So when they share their toys, it’s because they want to make another kid happy.  When they don’t share their toys, I think it’s more often because they don’t think about how their behavior effects others.

Well, just a nitpick but kids before a certain age haven’t developped the ability to empathize. They can’t think how their behavior would affect others because they can’t internalize the idea of a separate Will outside their own. It’s the same reason they can’t lie effectively: their lies are just simple denial of facts because they can’t construct a mental model of another person’s mind and see, from their POV, what would make a convincing lie.

But since the evidence seems to suggest that empathy is inate (but manifests at a later age than right out of the womb), I guess they are ‘born good’ in that sense.

Comment #25: BlackBloc  on  02/23  at  02:24 PM

Kids are born truly selfish. Empathy is something children have to learn. There’s a reason that parents try to explain to their kids “how would you feel if _____.”

Comment #26: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  02:26 PM

I imagine that parents who give their children the right to be individuals and whose goal is to move their children towards being able to make more and more of their own decisions end up being frustrated a lot less than fundamentalist parents,

So true, and guiding your children so they can eventually make good decisions for themselves is really the end goal in my opinion. I want to be able to have an equal relationship with my children when they are adults, not to have to be still be parenting them to the level I was when they were small children.

Comment #27: Olivia  on  02/23  at  02:26 PM

So many good points in this discussion!  Here are some observations of my own:

1.  I totally agree with Catgirl in comment number 17 that spanking does in fact hamper the development of empathy and an internalized conscience in children.  I know that, as a kid, I was more concerned with not getting caught than doing the right thing.  I also know that there was a strange kind of relief when another kid was getting whacked, because it meant I wasn’t getting whacked.  In other words, when you are spanked as a child, you spend so much energy trying to protect yourself that you don’t have any room left over to develop empathy for others.  (I like to think I have grown up to develop the quality of empathy, but no thanks to spanking.  I attribute the empathic side of my personality to the interest and attention given me by kind-hearted teachers and other adults rather than the authoritarian parenting I received.)

2.  I know quite a few people, as I am sure we all do, who were beaten quite viciously growing up and now vehemently defend the practice on the ground that they “turned out fine.”  I think this argument is a self-protective mechanism.  It is too painful for most people to confront the fact that the people they depended on when they were little and helpless terrorized and harmed them.  It is also too painful for most people to admit that they were broken in some way from the treatment they received from the caretakers charged with loving them.  I truly believe that many people’s defense of spanking is akin to Stockholm Syndrome.  If the hostages in the Stockholm case needed to bond with their kidnappers in order to survive the experience, imagine how much more little children need to bond with their parents and see things as much as possible from their parents’ point of view. 

3.  I really, really, really hate the justification that spanking is sometimes “necessary” because little children can do dangerous things, like run out into the street.  It is the parent’s job to hold a child’s hand or be prepared to rush forward to take the child out of harm’s way, until he or she reaches an age old enough to know better than to run into the street.  Or in the case of electrical outlets, you child-proof the outlet until your kid is old enough to understand the concept that outlets are dangerous. 

4.  I think a lot of parents who hit their kids have a huge fear of losing control.  In fact, parents have a HUGE amount of power over their kids—both psychologically and in terms of size, strength, and resources.  Hitting your kids is overkill, when there are so many other things you can do and given that kids at bottom are naturally inclined to care deeply about their parents’ opinion of them.

5.  People wrongfully tend to assume that parents always want the best for their children.  That may even be true for most parents in the abstract.  But when it comes to day-to-day interactions with children, parents are just as subject to the temptations of abuse of power as any other human being in a situation involving a power imbalance.  In other words, there are plenty of parents who are going to lord their power over their kids just for the sake of it.  There is no reason to think that parenthood is a human condition immune from the normal immorality of the human condition.  People like the Pearls are just encouraging a nasty, but unfortunately, common human impulse.  It reminds me of that famous Stanford prison experiment, when the nice college students assigned the role of prison guards quickly turned into vicious, power-hungry tyrants.  Parents are, in a way, in the same position as prison guards, especially when such tactics as parental hitting and excessive authoritarianism are normalized in the culture.

Comment #28: Laurie  on  02/23  at  02:30 PM

Also, while there are many who got spanked and Turned Out Fine, there are also many who got spanked and Turned Into Assholes. Its important to minimize Asshole Creating Behavior directed towards children, for the sake of those of us who have to live with them later in life.

Comment #29: Spike  on  02/23  at  02:31 PM

I’m not a parent, and will probably never be.  I was spanked as a child (occasionally - I can probably count all the times on less than both hands) and I’m not really sure how I feel about it as a parenting tool.  Certainly, it’s not okay to use a pipe to beat a child.

[possible concern trolling follows]

I am, however, uncomfortable with the attitude that some people take towards spanking (or really, any form of physical “correction”).  It’s hard for me to believe that all children of all ages - and let’s be honest, children are not rational creatures - can always be disciplined through verbal instruction, reprimand, and grounding.  An out-of-control child sometimes needs to be physically restrained.  What happens when s/he refuses to sit still, or does not accept punishment?  What happens when s/he acts out and is physically destructive?  Should we prohibit any physical discipline which might cause pain?  Where do we draw the line?

Is a deliberate spanking - designed to sting, but not to physically harm - really any worse than making a young child sit on an uncomfortable chair for an hour?  Miss a meal?  Spend the entire evening alone in his/her room with nothing to do?  As a kid, I hated being bored at least as much as being spanked.

Then there’s the weird cultural or class-based thing going on here.  (Disclaimer: I’m speculating here - please correct me!)  Wealthier parents - especially two-parent parents, *especially* when one can stay home - have the luxury of having someone watching their kids most of the time.  If you’re a single parent with no babysitter and three kids, I’m guessing it’s a lot easier to mete out a little physical discipline than to enforce some kind of consistent grounding regimen.

On a similar note, is there a class or entitlement element to the parent who practices laissez-faire discipline (like that kid in the nice Italian restaurant)?  That is, can a bunch of well-to-do (white?) parents sit around and pat themselves on the back that they’re not being barbaric in disciplining their kids while said kids run amok, because people aren’t going to judge them the same way as they would a poor or minority family?

[/possible concern trolling]

I wrote this because I’m uncomfortable with some of the things said here; which are said any time spanking is brought up.  I want to hear from people who are actually using these parenting techniques, who have thought through the social and cultural implications better than I have, etc. 

And of course, the disclaimer is that since I don’t have kids and may never have kids, it’s ultimately none of my damn business.  Carry on smile

Comment #30: Dave Fried  on  02/23  at  02:35 PM

“Not to say that this issue isn’t confusing, even for liberal or secular parents.”

You don’t say.  This is a tough discussion to have, because the line between spanking and abuse is too often crossed.  But I think it is error to classify all spanking as abuse.  I think it is fair to say that the overwhelming majority of kids have been spanked and the overwhelming majority of parents have adequate self control not to cross over into abuse.  The question is, in order to protect the minority, would society as a whole be better off if all spanking was stigmatized?

Comment #31: jleaux  on  02/23  at  02:35 PM

Here in Sweden the law prohibits spanking, and yet surveys show parents here still spank occasionally.

I’ve yet to strike my four year old, but I sure have come close at times. Recently he has been exhibiting controlling behaviour over his mother and we have had to start working hard together to counter this. Often by removing him away from his mum when he becomes too controlling and demanding.

Fact is that this young kids need to be guided. I don’t like having to lay down the law but the consequence of letting poor behaviour slide is horrific. My partner had a meltdown over this recently and I blame myself in part for not giving her the necessary backup when dealing with a misbehaving child.

As I say, I haven’t struck the lad yet. But it has been close. And having been through some tough trials I can’t help but want to keep that option in reserve as a last resort.

Only the law will not allow me.

Comment #32: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  02/23  at  02:40 PM

Dave—I don’t have kids either (and won’t ever have kids), as a society, we still have a vested interest in the wellbeing of our fellow citizens. We also have a vested interest in how those children turn out. Not to mention, this is a blog, not a daycare, so it’s not like anyone’s opinions here are actually going to be a threat to a real life child’s development, especially since just about every parent I have met has a passionate opinion one side or the other right about the time the pee stick turns blue.

Comment #33: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  02:43 PM

Spanking is unnecessary.  If a child’s behavior is so egregious that non-spanking discipline methods cannot correct it, there is something going on that needs more than spanking to address it.

Research clearly shows that spanking has no positive outcomes.  The level of negative outcomes it produces depends on context.

It’s such a shame to see that (as always in this debate), otherwise reasonable people feel the need to stand up for spanking.

Spanking adds nothing of value to a parent’s “toolkit” for discipline.  There are, truly, NO situations where spanking is the best, or the only, answer to a discipline problem.  None. 

That is not to say that all spanking is child abuse, but spanking is always a poor parenting choice.

Comment #34: teabea  on  02/23  at  02:46 PM

“The question is, in order to protect the minority, would society as a whole be better off if all spanking was stigmatized?”

Yes.

Comment #35: teabea  on  02/23  at  02:48 PM

It is interesting that these are the people who get all worked up about the precious fetus angels. Proving once again that when your existence is predicated on the control of a woman’s body, you must be spared at all costs (lock her up if she smokes!) but once you’ve crossed the cervical threshhold, it’s time to beat the everliving shit out of you.

Maybe we could classify the Pearl’s method as some sort of super-late-term abortion practice to get them to cut this shit out.

Comment #36: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  02:48 PM

Oh, and those Pearls?  they advocate hitting BABIES.  You are supposed to “blanket train” infants by swatting them to keep them from crawling off the blanket, and you teach them not to touch things by deliberately steering them towards attractive forbidden objects and then hitting them when they go to touch them, and repeating this until they don’t touch.

I have never understood the concept of blanket training.  Why not just put the baby in a playpen if you don’t want them to crawl away and do something dangerous?

Comment #37: bananacat  on  02/23  at  02:49 PM

There is one particularly chilling anecdote from their book where Mrs. Pearl describes the pleasure she derived from beating a 2-yo - not her child - who was over at her house and misbehaving.  Of course she claims that the pleasure was from setting this child on the right path, etc., but it’s transparently sadistic and truly shocking.

If another parent struck my child, I’d come down on their heads like the wrath of God.  You could make the argument that parents should be allowed to spank their children but in no instance is it ok for another person to do the same.  Teachers, relatives, friends, babysitters, etc. should keep their hands off other people’s kids.  I’ve read some of the Pearl’s advice and find it scary and reprehensible.

Comment #38: Prankaplegic  on  02/23  at  02:50 PM

At least from the perspective of my two, I don’t think this is right, and can be an actively dangerous way to think. Kids aren’t born “good”, they’re born “people”—usually ones that are very much like immature versions of their parents.

Well, just a nitpick but kids before a certain age haven’t developped the ability to empathize.

Kids are born truly selfish. Empathy is something children have to learn.

I disagree.  I think that empathy is instinctive.  While very young infants might not have much of it, they develop it at a very young age.  When kids do something that hurts others, it’s very often because they don’t realize how much it hurts another person.  Usually when they find out, they feel truly sorry for making someone else feel bad.  I think that’s a much bigger deterrent than the threat of physical punishment.

Comment #39: bananacat  on  02/23  at  02:54 PM

I have to say that I mostly agree with Mighty Ponygirl and Dave Fried here.  Not all spanking is abuse and not all spanking or physical discipline is automatically awful or harmful or even ineffective parenting.  But there is a definite line that can be crossed into outright abuse and, all too often, it is.

Comment #40: ks  on  02/23  at  02:55 PM

I mean, I was spanked and it essentially started a cycle of hostility with that parent that only ended when I moved out ten years later. Your mileage may vary. I am anti-spanking. (The other parent was known to chase us around yelling THE WOODEN SPOOOOOONNNN! BE AFRAID OF THE SPOOOON! but this was almost entirely a joke to make us laugh and stop being twits and ended with a symbolic swat on the bum with a spoon, so no, I don’t think all spanking is the same, if you could even call that spanking.)

In this case, I think the problem is also that a certain Fundamentalist school of thought holds that personal conscience is not to be relied on - Satan could be whispering in your ear - so that feeling that you’ve crossed the line, or that you’re in trouble, or that maybe it’s time to get the EMTs involved, can get way stomped down. And of course at the same time fathers are supposed to have an absolute level of control over their families - depending on the sect they are basically the voice of God and get treated kind of like cult leaders, and even their wives aren’t supposed to contradict them or even hint that they disagree with their decisions - and that kind of power dynamic really warps people. It’s a bad situation.

Comment #41: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  02:55 PM

David Fried asks whether being made to sit in a hard chair, or being forced into a boring situation for an hour, is really any better than a spanking. What is the difference really?

The difference is that spanking causes both fear and profound humiliation.  It is the same reason that most of us agree that placing a thief or violent criminal in jail is a good idea, whereas we would be horrified at the notion of flogging him or her. 

It should be noted that the buttocks are a private area, also a sexual area, of the body, a fact that makes spanking that much worse and potentially damaging.

Comment #42: Laurie  on  02/23  at  02:56 PM

Just curious - MightyPonygirl, Dave Fried, ks, are you parents?

Comment #43: teabea  on  02/23  at  02:57 PM

p.s. I want to point out that I know nothing about full-time dominance/submission relationships outside of the Fundamentalist context, but do have some expectation that people choose those and can choose to get out of them, while in certain Fundamentalist sects women are born into submission to their father and can only leave that relationship by choosing submission to their husband, so the consent issue would, one hopes, loom large as an ethical problem.

Comment #44: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  02:58 PM

Is a deliberate spanking - designed to sting, but not to physically harm - really any worse than making a young child sit on an uncomfortable chair for an hour?  Miss a meal?  Spend the entire evening alone in his/her room with nothing to do?  As a kid, I hated being bored at least as much as being spanked.

First of all, I would never deny any child food no matter how bad they acted.  As for sitting in a chair or going to their room, those things are better because they force the child to think about what they’ve done.  I wouldn’t advocate an hour of time-out for most children, and probably wouldn’t go past 10 minutes.  I would only use and entire evening confined to their room for an older child or teenager, and even then it would be for them to accomplish a specific task (like an entire evening in their room with books to study when they have failed to do homework).

Comment #45: bananacat  on  02/23  at  03:01 PM

The other problem is the alleged line between spanking and abuse.  Where is it exactly?  The law certainly isn’t clear on it, and I would be willing to guess the line is very different in different people’s minds.  I once saw a woman acquitted after beating her son so severely that his entire buttocks were essentially one solid, very dark bruise.  The lack of clarity under the law did a disservice both to the child and to the mother, who felt that she hadn’t done anything worthy of being arrested (and apparently, the jurors agreed).

Comment #46: Laurie  on  02/23  at  03:02 PM

That I describe this as a Christian problem in no way, shape, or form was meant or should be taken as an argument that non-Christians are not capable of child abuse.

The issue here—-and if you read Lynn’s article, she hashes this out more—-is that fundamentalism does more than justify authoritarian personalities that abuse children.  It creates them.  A lot of people who beat the shit out of their children resisted initially.  If you read the Pearls’ website, you see them trying to talk a lot of reluctant parents into doubling up the abuse.  But they grow accustomed to being authoritarians over time, I’m sure.

Comment #47: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  03:02 PM

Perhaps people who truly believe that it is only the threat of eternal hellfire that keeps them from “sinning” (committing murder, stealing, cheating on a spouse) also truly believe that only the threat of parental violence will make a child behave.

This story, and the power and influence of people like the Pearls and Dobson, make me incredibly sad.

Comment #48: Orange  on  02/23  at  03:02 PM

Mighty Ponygirl:

My issue is that when people say things like “X is horrible and immoral and anyone who thinks X is okay is a bad person and guilty of child abuse and is against civil rights”, and there appears to be strong agreement, even though X is something over which there is a huge spectrum of opinion even within the progressive Left, it makes people who disagree (or who just don’t have a strong opinion one way or the other) feel like they’re not welcome here - like they’re being told there’s only one way to be a real feminist or progressive and they don’t cut it.  Maybe that’s fine.  Maybe they’re right.  And people have a right to express their opinion.  But at the same time, it’s a very weird, intolerant vibe.

There’s a lot of similar issues which I think people do a really good job with on this blog and in the comments, marriage being one example.  It’s just a couple of things where I read the posts and comments and go “yeesh!”  When the awesome thing about Pandagon IMO is the stuff that makes you go “hmmm…”  smile

Comment #49: Dave Fried  on  02/23  at  03:03 PM

Four years ago this month, a 4-year-old boy named Sean Paddock died when his adoptive mother wrapped him in blankets so tightly that he couldn’t breathe.
...
The Schatzes also face torture and abuse charges for significant injuries sustained by Lydia’s also-adopted sister Zariah ...

Can we ban Christians from adopting yet?

Put these kids with a good, loving same-sex couple already.

Comment #50: Sarcastro  on  02/23  at  03:03 PM

catgirl, child psychology directly contradicts you. I don’t believe children are evil, but they are selfish—they have to be. It’s part of basic psychological development. You scream when you’re hungry when you’re a baby because you’re hungry. There’s no part of you that has the ability to understand that mom may be tired, or sick. You fucking want to be fed, dammit. If children had any sort of empathy right out of the gate, we wouldn’t survive as a species.

Children literally cannot fathom consciousness other than their own, because they’re still working on developing their consciousness and their sense of self. If you place a child in front of a model of a mountain sitting on a table with various features on it: houses, trees, rocks, etc, and place a stuffed bear on the other side of the table, and ask them to describe “What the bear sees,” a child will describe what he or she sees, because they can’t begin to think that someone might have a different experience from their own.

It’s not evil, it’s just selfish. It’s important to develop empathy in kids, but a lot of times the only way a kid can learn not to hit is when they get hit themselves and they realize how truly it sucks (not that parents need to strike their kids to prevent them from hitting, other kids can do that bit of ugliness for them) and then begin to transfer that feeling to someone else. And it takes a long time, as any parent of a toddler knows. That first “how would you like it if Doug hit you?” discussion is never the last.

Once a kid has a building block of empathy they can begin to develop empathy going forward without necessarily connecting a concrete example to another kid’s experience. But empathy has a prerequisite requirement of selfishness: you have to think of your own reaction before you can begin to think of how other people would feel.

Comment #51: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  03:06 PM

I’ve already heard about this on some other blogs, and I’ve been seriously thinking about it for a few days.  I wonder this type of “punishment” actually makes children more selfish and less empathetic.  For the most part, I think kids are born good and truly care about other people.  So when they share their toys, it’s because they want to make another kid happy.  When they don’t share their toys, I think it’s more often because they don’t think about how their behavior effects others.  If they share their toys only because they’re afraid of the pain that will come to the personally, that doesn’t really seem like it should “count”.  I think it’s much more effective to give “lectures”, and just try to show the child how their actions effect others.

So should it matter if a kid does the right thing because they know it’s right, or only because they fear punishment?  Some people will claim that children really can’t understand right and wrong, but I think they are really underestimating children.  And what happens when there is no longer a parent around to beat their kid into good behavior?  I guess that’s where god is supposed to take over.  It seems like it would be so much more successful if relied on people’s inherent empathy rather than fear of physical pain to get them to behave.
Comment #17: catgirl on 02/23 at 12:06 PM

Catgirl, I have two reads for you.  One is Lawrence Kohlberg on the moral development of children.  The other is Lord of the Flies - task, reconcile. 

And the idea of inculcating virtue as a habit predates Christianity by at least half a century,  as in Aristotle, though IIRC, the concept of rewards ad punishment for good and bad behavior respectively, not necessarily physical.

Comment #52: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  03:06 PM

The spanking is just a side issue here, as sad as that is. What the Pearls are advocating is using physical violence specifically to break your child’s independent will and turn them to a life of unthinking, unquestioning obedience of authority.

The goal, of course, is to create legions of fundamentalist Christians who regard any deviation from the nearest authority figure as not just bad behavior but evil. I’m sure everyone here can recognize how dangerous that is.

Plenty of people (including me) were spanked as children by parents who were trying to punish bad behavior. I’m willing to accept debate over whether physical punishment is wrong. But there is not a single question in my mind that using physical violence to break the will of a helpless infant is beyond evil.

Comment #53: sophronia  on  02/23  at  03:07 PM

teabea, if you had actually read my previous comments, you would know the answer to that. Since you didn’t, and I can’t expect that you’ve read anything I’ve written with any sort of intellectual honesty, I won’t engage you.

I would also like to quote for emphasis one of the FIRST SENTENCES from my first comment:
<strong>I have met precious few parents who can actually spank their children without it going into the realm of abuse, so I feel that there is a fundamental flaw in the idea of spanking as it applies to human nature. </stront>

Comment #54: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  03:10 PM

“People wrongfully tend to assume that parents always want the best for their children. “

Exactly. Too often people want what’s best for them, and what best represents what they believe about themselves. If they believe that they have the perfect Christian family, they will beat the snot out of any child who violates that ideal.

Comment #55: DC Fem  on  02/23  at  03:10 PM

Laurie:

When I was little, I was never spanked or humiliated in public.  If I did something that warranted punishment (of any kind), I was told discretely that I would be punished later, and I was, in private.  That gave me plenty of time to think about what I had done.  The dread was actually a lot worse than the actual punishment, which was never all that bad.  Also, I never really saw my butt as a private or sexual area (especially when I was young enough to be spanked), so I guess that wasn’t an issue for me.

I think I would be much less comfortable with physically disciplining a child in public.  I think you are right in that the embarrassment would be an additional, unnecessary emotional abuse.  I also do not believe in managers dressing-down their employees in front of their peers - it is the same principle.  These are just my opinions.

teabea:

I think if you read what I wrote you would not ask this.

Comment #56: Dave Fried  on  02/23  at  03:12 PM

catgirl, child psychology directly contradicts you.

If that’s what the evidence says, then I’ll believe you.  But from my psychology classes (admittedly, I’m no expert), studies that I’ve read, and my own personal experience as a child and as a caregiver to dozens of children, I think that children have innate empathy at a very young age.

The other is Lord of the Flies - task, reconcile.

I hope you realize that this book is <i>fiction<i>.

Comment #57: bananacat  on  02/23  at  03:14 PM

Mighty @20: All well and good, but part of the problem is the focus on punishment.  Over and over again, psychological research has shown that punishment is the least effective form of behavior modification.  The sole reason parents prefer it is that it’s easier and it’s what they know.

You claim that time outs didn’t “work”, because you enjoyed them.  Except: did the negative behavior you were engaging in stop?  It did, didn’t it?  Goal-oriented behavior modification would call that a success.  The desire to have a child to “pay” for misbehavior, however, is not satisfied.  And that, I think, is the problem. 

Children aren’t pets, but they—-all of us—-are animals and we all respond in a very standard way to punishment, which is to hate the punisher more than to think about what we did wrong.  And most child misbehavior doesn’t even rise to the level of moral outrage, you know?  Frustration seems to be a better method, just like when training an animal not to do things that you don’t want them to do.

Take, for instance, the child misbehaving in the restaurant that was annoying the shit out of me.  Far more effective than spanking would be to grab her every time she started to slide out of her chair, and put her back.  You can explain why or not, probably irrelevant.  The point is to make it easier for her to sit in the chair than to slide out of it.  But why don’t parents do this?  Because it’s fucking tedious, that’s why.  To which my sympathy is limited; you signed up for this when you decided to have a baby.

Comment #58: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  03:14 PM

I wholeheartedly endorse Mighty Ponygirl’s #20

I fully support a ban on hitting your kid with an object, but a complete blanket spanking ban gets into the Zero Tolerance bullshit that’s poisoned so many other areas of the law.  In an ideal world spanking would be rare or non-existent.  In the real world, a ban on spanking just invites the government into one of the most intimate relationships there is, and the government will from time to time be in the hands of the likes of Dick Cheney.  Opening that door should be done with great care and only with a compelling reason.  Spanking may be worse for a kid than no spanking, but having some petty government functionary inserted into the parent-child relationship is potentially far, far worse. 

We’ve seen instances where “protect the children” has lead to parents being threatened with placement on sex offender lists for having nude pictures of of their own kids sitting in the bath.  The McMartin Preschool case shows how far “protect the children” can be taken in the hands of authoritarian loons.  Anything that empowers them relative to individual parents should be viewed with extreme skepticism.

Comment #59: togolosh  on  02/23  at  03:14 PM

Dave, It was not my experience that spanking had to be public in order to be extremely humiliating experience, to the point that I wanted to die.  And no, my parents didn’t use implements, leave bruises or do anything that most people would label “abuse.”

Comment #60: Laurie  on  02/23  at  03:15 PM

Sarcastro # 50 -

Firstly, anyone who adopts because they’re “going to save a poor child from starvation and/or heathenism and bring them up in this country with all of its blessings” should NOT be allowed to adopt.

Secondly, it constantly amazes my wife and me that these people slip through the system - adoption, especially international adoption, has so many hoops to jump through before you get the child that these stories just anger me no end.

And finally - the vast majority of adoption agencies, espeically again international adoption agencies, are part of religious foundations or have religious founding principles.  From time to time I wonder if that’s why our mildly secular household wasn’t treated as seriously as more religious potential parents when it came down to the process through our agency.

Comment #61: tannenburg  on  02/23  at  03:17 PM

Just curious - MightyPonygirl, Dave Fried, ks, are you parents?

Yes—I have two (in fact, today is my oldest’s birthday—he’s 8). And it isn’t like I spank all the time or that it’s the discipline of choice, I could count on one hand the number of times I’ve done it.  But I do think that, depending on the kid (and the age and the infraction, etc.), that it can be, sometimes, effective.

Comment #62: ks  on  02/23  at  03:18 PM

sophronia: yes, yes, 1000x yes!

Good parents who believe that physical discipline is okay believe it is a way to help a child learn right from wrong, like all other kinds of punishment.  It is just an additional tool for them.  What these fundies are advocating is something entirely different: it serves the same purpose as hazing, or boot camp - or torture.

Being put in a situation which is designed to break your will is only ever allowed even for consenting adults when it is a requirement for national defense.  And we are going to let people do this to their children?  What you teach a child when you apply this kind of treatment is the same thing that fraternity freshmen learn when they’re hazed - conform, and abuse those weaker than you when it’s your time to run things.

Comment #63: Dave Fried  on  02/23  at  03:19 PM

Can we ban Christians from adopting yet?

Put these kids with a good, loving same-sex couple already.

What about same-sex couples who are also Christian?  Also, should we really ban 75% of this country from adopting children?  Please, you should know better than judge entire groups.  Evangelical and fundamentalist Christians claim to be the only Real True Christians(TM), but they’re not.  They certainly make up a significant group, but they’re not the representatives of all Christians, as much as they would like to be.  There are plenty of Christian parents who don’t spank at all, and plenty of denominations that are actually liberal.

However, you do bring up a really good point.  I am surprised that this couple was allowed to adopt children, because I thought the screening process was pretty rigorous.  It makes me wonder if they just did a really thorough job of hiding their beliefs, or if the adoption agency didn’t check as thoroughly as they should have.

Comment #64: bananacat  on  02/23  at  03:20 PM

Spanking a pre-verbal child is always, always abuse.

Way too big a generalization there, MPG Or, perhaps the idea of spanking needs to be delineated-spanking versus “a swat”.  In my theorizing, it would be once a child reaches the verbal stage that the swatting stops.  As for spanking, I’m a RoseAnn fan:  What do you mean never hit your child in anger?  When am I supposed to hit them?  When I’m happy with them?”  In other words, I’m with Shaw, I can’t imagine hitting hard enough to hurt, (not just to show extreme non-verbal disapproval) a child or anyone without anger-my body just doesn’t work that way. 

A “swat” on a diapered toddler’s hand or backside (with one’s own hand, not any implement) with many children, is the means to get the pre-verbal child (and that needs a definition, too)  pre-verbal not as in under walking age, but as in mobile but not yet able to understand lengthy explanations about danger.  This can also be the age when containment is difficult - at some point the kid crawls out of the playpen or climbs the childgate.  A swat can be the effective means of keeping the child from further injury - hot stoves, busy streets, climbing counters, etc.  Some kids will react to the stern look, some won’t and need a way to know that the parent is really serious, or perhaps it is associative - reaching for that = pain.

Comment #65: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  03:22 PM

Mighty Ponygirl,

I don’t have an opinion whether empathy is innate or not.  It suspect that empathy comes somewhat naturally once the child has the necessary cognitive abilities—but I would defer to anyone who knows more about child development.

What I do disagree with in your comment is that being hit helps kids to develop empathy for other people who are hit.  In my experience, which I alluded to in the first numbered paragraph in my comment at paragraph 28, it is the opposite.  When you get hit, especially by an authority figure, you WANT to see other people get hit.  At least I did.  I wanted other people to get hit because (a) I was angry at having been hit myself; (b) I didn’t want to feel like the only person so weak or shameful as to get hit; and (c) it was relief when someone was getting hit rather than me. 

Pain and fear makes children more selfish and less empathic because it forces you to focus on yourself.  Your own pain and fear becomes the most important thing, and you don’t have any empathy left over for others.  (In fact, that’s why there is a cycle of abuse.  While many abused children grow up to be loving and kind, there are significant proportion who grow up to be abusers themselves.)

Comment #66: Laurie  on  02/23  at  03:22 PM

Or, perhaps the idea of spanking needs to be delineated-spanking versus “a swat”.  In my theorizing, it would be once a child reaches the verbal stage that the swatting stops.  As for spanking, I’m a RoseAnn fan:  What do you mean never hit your child in anger?  When am I supposed to hit them?  When I’m happy with them?” In other words, I’m with Shaw, I can’t imagine hitting hard enough to hurt, (not just to show extreme non-verbal disapproval) a child or anyone without anger-my body just doesn’t work that way.

Or, basically, this.

Comment #67: ks  on  02/23  at  03:25 PM

Laurie:

I don’t want to seem flippant, so understand that I’m serious when I say this: thank you for sharing, and believe me - this sounds like it is not a comfortable thing for you to talk about.  It is interesting for me to see someone who had a similar experience to me (maybe? maybe not?) who had such a different reaction.  I think people should be aware if there are children for whom any physical discipline is going to be a horrible, scarring experience - if more people talked about this stuff, maybe people’s opinions would change.

Comment #68: Dave Fried  on  02/23  at  03:26 PM

You claim that time outs didn’t “work”, because you enjoyed them.  Except: did the negative behavior you were engaging in stop?  It did, didn’t it?

Actually, they didn’t. There’s a reason I didn’t get them very often. Because they were ineffective.

I was certainly “redirected” from doing a bad behavior at the moment, but I didn’t learn to NOT perform the bad behavior as a result of time outs. They were about the worst form of discipline.

I was not spanked often—I really don’t think you would need two hands to count the number of times I was spanked. After a while, the “tone” was enough to get me to behave. More than anything, I did not want to be spanked. This was a very specific period of my development as a child: Once I was able to rationalize and empathize, spanking wasn’t necessary anymore because you were able to get me to behave on an intellectual level. And again, pointing out that there are a lot of ways to “discipline” (abuse) your kids without laying a hand on them that will leave scars that spanking doesn’t.

Now, there *is* a much more serious aspect to any sort of physical discipline (whether it’s spanking or outright abuse, like the Pearls advocate), which is how authoritarian your household is, and this is definitely something I can speak to: if father is the authoritarian disciplinarian, then the physical stuff is just the tip of the iceberg.

Comment #69: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  03:27 PM

n out-of-control child sometimes needs to be physically restrained.

You conflated restraining (a frustrating behavior) with spanking (a punishment behavior).  Very different things.  Since your entire argument rests on this, I think it falls apart.

Comment #70: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  03:27 PM

Phylosopher,

Why do you need to get a pre-verbal child to understand danger? Isn’t it your job to keep your pre-verbal child away from the hot stove, the cars in the street, and the electrical outlet? And wouldn’t it be more dangerous to rely on a possibly unfounded assumption that you got your pre-verbal child to understand danger by swatting him or her?

Comment #71: Laurie  on  02/23  at  03:28 PM

Mighty Ponygirl,

What you are saying and I don’t think you mean to say this is that children to whom empathy is not explained by their parents (or someone by lecture) don’t develop it.  That’s just not true.  Not all parents have the “how would you feel if Dougie hit you” talks.

Yes babies don’t have developed empathy and can’t think outside themselves.  No one is arguing otherwise.  And yes very young children have very limited empathy.  However, the human brains develops and empathy develops no matter how the child is raised.  Empathy is a basic human ability and does not need to be taught though it can be developed.  It can be stunted but every adult other than extremely damaged and very rare individuals are capable of empathy even if they don’t apply it to most people.  I mean, personally I vote for developing empathy because I think that makes for better human beings but it is inherent.

I also think that children can develop empathy very very young.  My sister and I were never very difficult children and the reason for it was we didn’t want to hurt out mom.  That was the punishment - we caused her pain - and like all children we loved her so we didn’t do that.  But my mother is a very empathetic individual that raised us with a very close bond.  I’m not advocating that a parent cry instead of use time outs as punishment but in my experience it is very effective and more effective than spanking.

Comment #72: Victoria  on  02/23  at  03:28 PM

James Dobson: animal and child abuser, passing himself off as an expert. When are groups like Focus on the Fetus and others going to start being 1.Investigated. 2.Taxed?

Comment #73: pitbullgirl65  on  02/23  at  03:28 PM

Here is another (and heartbreaking) post at No Longer Quivering from someone who says she knew the family in question..and the little girl who was killed:

http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/02/22/lydias-smile-could-have-lit-a-room/#more-4261

I admit to swatting my son on the rear when he would not stop screaming in rage that he was in a Time Out, and he would not sit down, and then yes, my god the screaming. I had already tried everything else.

I feel badly about it, did not want to do it, but frankly, if I can’t leave him in his room (he tends to destroy things when he’s mad, and certainly won’t sit in the chair) and can’t sit with him and hold him there without him screaming unbearably (also, spitting, hitting)...then what?

I mean, do I put him in a closet? Make him go outside in the freezing cold? Lock up all his toys? Tie him up? All seem much worse.

I felt terrible about even the two swats I gave him. He stopped screaming though. I would love to find a better way to deal with him in that state, (which is thankfully rare), but so far I haven’t.

He doesn’t seem to ever get this bad with his teachers or grandparents, just his dad and me.

The other time he got swats was when he was younger, he would collapse deliberately (didn’t want to hold my hand) in the middle of the street while crossing it. He’s not light, and he nearly got us killed by oncoming traffic while I struggled to haul him to safety. What is the appropriate punishment for this? A swat got his attention and got him on his feet. And may have saved our lives.

I would never use any implement on him, or make swatting him anything but a rare response. I’d like to make it nonexistent. But it’s not as easy as it sounds.

And no, children are not born empathetic. They are not evil, but they are not empathetic.

Comment #74: emjaybee  on  02/23  at  03:29 PM

I remember a catholic priest came in to talk to us a class once when I was 8 or 10 or thereabouts. Friendly old man, or so he seemed. He lit a big candle and said if anyone can hold their hand on the flame for a minute they would get 10 dollars. Anyway, the future econ majors gave it a try and it all ended in tears and burning sensations. His demeanor then became dark and angry and he dramatically informed us that if we sinned we would go to hell and if we were couldn’t stand one minute of a candle we needed to think deeply about burning for all eternity. Good times.

The end result of this was the stealing of cigarette lighters and threats to burn each other at school and nightmares for the people who took it seriously.

Comment #75: pharmakos  on  02/23  at  03:29 PM

I was spanked as a child, but like teabea, it wasn’t comparatively a big deal. Yes, my mom occasionally hit me, but far far worse was the daily mental and verbal abuse, the constant denial of my right to be a person, to the point where I was punished for looking the wrong way or saying the word “look.” Or hell, “say.” For me, spanking was part and parcel of abuse but never went far enough to either scare me or hurt me. Despite that, it was adamantly NOT fine, and I am NOT ok.

Reading stuff like this makes me ache inside. I have an 8 month old who would be described as these people as “willful.” All the “bad behavior” they list for a baby, like climbing, biting, wriggling a lot during diaper changes, are things my daughter does constantly. And the idea that someone would use those as excuses to hit her just…well, there aren’t words. My daughter is trying at times, frustrating, and a lot to deal with, but she’s happy and affectionate and perfectly healthy. No matter how little sleep I get, how hard she bites my nipple, how many times she tries to play in her poo, I could never ever be angry at her (as a baby. I’m sure as a toddler and older she’ll make me angry plenty of times). She’s a baby. She’s exploring and developing and doesn’t have the mental ability to do anything else. How could you possibly be angry at or want to harm someone like that?

Comment #76: Ashley  on  02/23  at  03:29 PM

swat can be the effective means of keeping the child from further injury - hot stoves, busy streets, climbing counters, etc.

I’ve never understood this logic.  If the fear of getting hit by a car doesn’t stop a child, then how will the fear of getting hit with a hand stop them?  If they don’t understand the risk of running into a street, then tell them; most kids are smarter than we give them credit for.  If they’re too young to understand the risk, then don’t let them get into a situation where they could do something dangerous in the first place.  Let them play way from streets, hold their hand, put up a fence, or find some other way to keep them away from the street.

Comment #77: bananacat  on  02/23  at  03:30 PM

Oops, blasphemed too soon.

But basically, I agree with Phylosopher’s point about spanking vs. swatting.  I wouldn’t spank or swat my 8 year old—he’s old enough that I can discuss, take away legos, etc., if his behavior needs modified and he’s old enough to understand danger without me needing to make sure I have his attention immediately.  My 4 year old is almost there, too, and I don’t imagine that swatting/spanking will be necessary for him going forward either.

Really, swatting is sometimes useful for the parent of a toddler, though.  Because they aren’t developed enough to understand verbal commands and they are very easily distracted and very quick. 

But there is a difference between a swat, a spank, and abuse.  And what the Pearls and FotF and their ilk advocate is outright abuse.

Comment #78: ks  on  02/23  at  03:31 PM

Thank God there are comments like #53 that save us from this dreary, off-topic, anecdotal diarrhea.

Comment #79: norbizness  on  02/23  at  03:31 PM

Dave,

Thanks! Obviously, this is something I feel strongly about so I really appreciate your comment.  It is a difficult topic because there is no polite way to really talk about it with people one knows in real life; I sort of put a muzzle on myself when parents I know talk about spanking their kids, but let fly in real life.

Just to be clear, I understand how tough it is to be a parent, and I totally understand (and have experienced) the desire to just belt a kid quickly to get immediate compliance.  That doesn’t mean I think it is okay, even if I have some empathy (!!!) for what parents go through (and I will go through soon if I am able to conceive).

LAST THOUGHT (I do hope to shut up soon):  Another commenter above talked about spanking in terms of “effectiveness.” But the question is, effective towards what end?  Is immediate compliance (which spanking and threats of spanking unquestionably produce) more important than long-range mental health of the child? (And yes, I realize I am begging the question a bit, in that I am assuming the two are contradictory.  However, I think the evidence establishes immediate compliance as the only possible benefit of spanking, and I really don’t think immediate compliance is the most important thing in child-rearing.

Comment #80: Laurie  on  02/23  at  03:34 PM

Mighty @51: but the fact that young children aren’t empathetic or rational is more reason to simply avoid punishment and rely on rewards and frustration.  The only way punishment works is if the person being punished has enough empathy to understand they did wrong.  That’s why you don’t punish your pets if you’re training them.  It doesn’t work, because they don’t understand why you’re upset with them.  I’d think pre-rational children would be the same.

Comment #81: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  03:34 PM

<blockquote>  I hope you realize that this book is <i>fiction<i>.
Comment #57: catgirl on 02/23 at 01:14 PM </blockquote<

And yet many a parent will use it as a metaphor of children together, left to their own devices.  Much of the bullying and brutality seen in schools is Lord of the Flies behavior, IMO.

LOF was written as an allegory about human nature - no nature, cooperative, altruistic, competitive, or selfish nature, or some blend? Blanket statements seem to be the problem even if we decide/find there is some form of human nature-that range of deviations form the norm is huge - a continuum that the actual parent needs to discern and deal with.

Comment #82: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  03:36 PM

#51

I worked at a daycare back in high school. I can say with absolute certainty from observing the very young children that people are not born selfish or giving. They have the capacity for both. For example I vividly remember a time when I was working the baby room. A child, barely more than an infant really, shared his Cheerios with another child. He was much too young to understand the concept of sharing but there he was sharing away. It was adorable, he would eat some Cheerios and then give some away to the other boy.  Not less than 10 minutes later this sweet curly haired angel started a vicious fight complete with mark leaving biting over a toy. I saw selfishness/selflessness like that every day.

Comment #83: kiki  on  02/23  at  03:39 PM

What I do disagree with in your comment is that being hit helps kids to develop empathy for other people who are hit.

I agree with you on this one, Laurie.  When kids are hit, they don’t empathize with other people who are being hit.  Instead, they’re more likely to empathize with the hitter, and envy their power and control.  It makes them want to be on the other side of the situation.  On top of that, they’re told that they deserve the hitting because of bad behavior, so they’re more likely to assume that all other people being hit really deserve it, even if they’re the one doing the hitting.

Comment #84: bananacat  on  02/23  at  03:39 PM

What I do disagree with in your comment is that being hit helps kids to develop empathy for other people who are hit.

In Mighty Ponygirl’s defense, I don’t think she was referring to the continued use or threat of violence to teach empathy.  When I was about two, I bit people.  A lot.  Nothing my parents did seemed to make a dent in my biting behavior—it was fun and felt fine to me!  So, one day, my mom bit me back after I had bitten her.  I cried, and I stopped biting.  Why?  I’d guess because I was able to understand that it *hurt* other people.  If my parents had consistently bitten me afterwards, as opposed to reminding me that I didn’t like being bitten, then yes, it’d have been a big problem.

(Complete disclosure:  I remember being spanked once by my dad, and being slapped once by my mom.  The slap shocked me, but Mom’s immediate remorse, tears, and saying that she might need to go away for awhile to learn how to be a better mom terrified me as a 5 or 6 year old.)

Comment #85: Karinna A.  on  02/23  at  03:40 PM

As for spanking, I’m a RoseAnn fan:  What do you mean never hit your child in anger?  When am I supposed to hit them?  When I’m happy with them?” In other words, I’m with Shaw, I can’t imagine hitting hard enough to hurt, (not just to show extreme non-verbal disapproval) a child or anyone without anger-my body just doesn’t work that way.

Well, a lot of that has to do with what the kid was doing. In a lot of situations where a parent is *angry,* the kid is probably not doing something spank-worthy.

If you can’t cool off so that you’re not projecting anger when you’re physically disciplining your kids, even if you can control yourself to make sure the kid has a warning, and you don’t actually harm your children by going overboard, you’re still showing kids that violence is an acceptable response to anger. If you decouple physical discipline from showing the kid that you’re angry (by simply making the spanking a consequence of poor behavior, not a show of just how pissed off you are), then even if you’re boiling mad inside, you’re able to control it and the kid isn’t going to learn that being pissed off means it’s time to hurt someone else.

Comment #86: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  03:41 PM

I was certainly “redirected” from doing a bad behavior at the moment, but I didn’t learn to NOT perform the bad behavior as a result of time outs. They were about the worst form of discipline.

The rewards for misbehaving still outweighed the rewards for behaving, I’d say.  The problem is that the mammal mind doesn’t measure risk very well, which is why people fuck without contraception.  The reward for screwing is very alluring and there’s not a lot of rewards for not doing it.  And that’s why teenagers who have visible rewards for using contraception or abstaining—-college, career, etc.—-are more likely to avoid pregnancy. 

What’s sad and frustrating about this discussion is that there’s a huge amount of research, and it’s mostly ignored.  Misbehavior in children is fundamentally a battle of wills.  There’s only two ways to win those—-break a person’s spirit (learned helplessness through abuse) or change the circumstances so that your will starts to look good to someone else.  Punishment is probably part of this, but it’s minor.

Comment #87: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  03:42 PM

And yet many a parent will use it as a metaphor of children together, left to their own devices.

Just like many conservatives will use fictional sitcoms from the 50s as a metaphor of perfect family life.  It’s dangerous to assume that fiction is an accurate model of human behavior.

Comment #88: bananacat  on  02/23  at  03:43 PM

Exactly what kiki said!  Just because babies are not capable of empathy or kids can be really selfish and/or vicious doesn’t mean they aren’t born with empathy.  They are born as human beings with a lot of good and bad and they develop.  Empathy is inherent the way selfishness and ambition is inherent but not everyone has it to the same degree and it can take time to develop.

Yup Karinna, parents showing vulnerability is very effective and scary in a way authoritarianism isn’t.

Comment #89: Victoria  on  02/23  at  03:44 PM

I’m reminded of this exchange from Mad Men:

Betty:  You think you’d be the man you are today if your father hadn’t hit you?

Don:  My old man beat the hell out of me, and all it did was make me dream of the day I could murder him.

Comment #90: Linnaeus  on  02/23  at  03:45 PM

I don’t think it’s just fundamentalist parents who think this way.

Of course not, but when fundie “stars” like the Pearls advocate it, that makes it easier for abusive/immature parents to rationalize their violence.

Comment #91: Bitter Scribe  on  02/23  at  03:47 PM

The problem is that the mammal mind doesn’t measure risk very well, which is why people fuck without contraception.

This is exactly right.  Most of the time, people do the right thing because they know it’s right, and not because of the fear of consequences.  Children aren’t much different.  This is why the death penalty is not an effective deterrent to murder, and why denying people protection from HIV in the form of condoms won’t make people fuck less.  I was extremely well-behaved as a child, and it was rarely because of the threat of any kind of punishment.

Comment #92: bananacat  on  02/23  at  03:47 PM

And back to the topic, clearly the Christian fundie ideas on punishment are there to induce learned helplessness.  “Compliance” is really just brokenness.  That a child isn’t self-motivated any longer is irrelevant, as long as they aren’t a pain in the ass, I guess.

Ironically, children who do the best in the long-term were often terrors as children precisely because they are willful and get their way.

Comment #93: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  03:49 PM

Even if small children are not spanked, they still need to be occasionally forcibly moved (against their will) or confined.  This is the nature of small children; they are sociopathic by definition.  But . . . that isn’t a good thing, and we move beyond it as quickly as possible.  Because they are small children, and striking or dragging them is fundamentally unpleasant.  Even when they make us very angry. 

My little brother had a habit of biting people.  Eventually, we had to start smacking him every time, because he was drawing blood.  It got through after a week or so, and we were done.  But it wasn’t the first response, and it wasn’t continued out of the pleasure of beating those beneath us.

Comment #94: Punditus Maximus  on  02/23  at  03:53 PM

And as an off note, this topic is amusing to me because I have a cat discipline problem.  My cat was up half the night yowling because we wouldn’t play with her, and it fucked up our sleep.  But I didn’t get up and spank her, which would have been as effective as picking my nose and showing it to her.  The plan is a) not reward the behavior with attention and b) frustrate her ability to sleep all day so she sleeps tonight.  I’ve done it before; it works really well, though there are occasional regressions.

Comment #95: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  03:54 PM

Really, swatting is sometimes useful for the parent of a toddler, though.  Because they aren’t developed enough to understand verbal commands and they are very easily distracted and very quick.

I’ve never met a toddler who required swatting to behave, and I’ve cared for dozens of them.  Every child over about 18 months could understand if I just made the effort.  If your child doesn’t respond to verbal commands, then maybe you are demanding too much of him.  Expecting kids not to wriggle around or to stay focused on the same task for hours is just unrealistic.  No amount of hitting can make them perfectly still, quiet, and obedient.

Millions of teachers, daycare providers, and relatives manage to care for children every single day without spanking them.  Why can’t parents manage to care for the exact same children without swatting?

Comment #96: bananacat  on  02/23  at  03:55 PM

What you are saying and I don’t think you mean to say this is that children to whom empathy is not explained by their parents (or someone by lecture) don’t develop it.  That’s just not true.  Not all parents have the “how would you feel if Dougie hit you” talks

Ah, but you’re making the logical flaw that the ONLY instruction a child receives is from a parent. This is not true. While parents are the primary disciplinarians, children receive instruction from non-parents all the time… even if mom doesn’t have the “how would you like it if Dougie hit you” talk, that doesn’t mean that the preschool teacher or daycare worker won’t, furthermore, when Dougie actually does hit the kid, that can be the beginning of empathy. (And yes, I wasn’t saying “you have to hit your kids so they can learn empathy.” Every kid gets hit at some point by their playmates, and if you can work with that, fantastic. The point is the experience is there for the kid to think about).

but the fact that young children aren’t empathetic or rational is more reason to simply avoid punishment and rely on rewards and frustration.  The only way punishment works is if the person being punished has enough empathy to understand they did wrong.

That’s why I had to get personally anecdotalicious in comment #69 ... there is a bridge period between being verbal and being rational where physical discipline *may* be the only thing for it (and again, pointing back to my first post where I said that physical discipline needs to be the last resort). If you’re too young to understand your parent’s instruction that you don’t do shit, then you don’t qualify. But there’s a point where you definitely have a sense of self and you’re developing your empathy, but it isn’t there yet. Punk-ass Dougie hitting you is something you have to FOCUS on, it takes WORK to have empathy because you’re still working on it. But you *know* you don’t like spankings, and when you’re running around like a terror and every play group your pushing Dougie down and hitting him when he tries to play with your toy, the empathy/rationalization model (while important to reinforce so that it can develop) is not going to be effective whereas “if you don’t stop hitting Dougie you’re going to get a spanking” *does* work. Later on in life, when the empathy/rationalization model *does* work, you’ll have the tools you need to not hit Dougie without fear of being spanked, but in the selfish child-centered world, where you only share cheerios if you’re not particularly hungry yourself, you have to understand that there will be consequences TO YOURSELF if you act like a little shit.

Comment #97: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  03:55 PM

The argument, catgirl, is that it’s hard to teach a child that being hit by a car hurts and still have yourself a child. It’s easy to teach them that stepping into a busy road gets them hit and still have a child. The issue in this case is, to my reading, the warping of normal power dynamics to the point where cooperation can only happen after the powerful have bent the powerless to their will, because of course working together for a shared goal isn’t possible.

Comment #98: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  03:58 PM

I’ve read some accounts of fundamentalist childrearing that suggest that it is not uncommon for newborns to be “disciplined” for crying.  Why?  Because it’s disobedience.  Of course, crying is the only way babies can communicate their needs, but I guess having needs also amounts to disobedience.

Comment #99: BetsyD  on  02/23  at  03:59 PM

Mighty, but like a lot of people pointed out, all the kid does is learn to avoid detection. 

The spanking justification is always the “kid runs out in the street, you grab them and spank them” thing.  And that’s the worst possible example, because the grabbing is what frustrated the behavior and slowly chipped away at it. 

Again, parents hate frustrating because it’s tedious.  I’m fucking tired of finding my cat every few minutes and waking her up.  But I do it, because other methods don’t work.

Comment #100: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  04:00 PM

The argument, catgirl, is that it’s hard to teach a child that being hit by a car hurts and still have yourself a child.

Tell them that getting hit by a car hurts.  I’ve never been hit by a car, yet I can understand that it will hurt.  I also understood that from a very young age.  If your child truly cannot understand that just by telling them, then they should never be in a situation where can they run out into the street.  It is the caregiver’s duty to supervise the child, not hit them until they agree to stay in one spot.

Comment #101: bananacat  on  02/23  at  04:04 PM

My kids had to read Lord of the Flies in middle school, and found it very upsetting.  Some of these kids were adopted from a foreign country which had been almost completely destroyed by a series of civil wars, and they actually had personal knowledge that it hadn’t been that way in their case, but it was still very frightening for them.

I told them that in my opinion, it was a vile and evil book and was written to persuade its readers of something that was not true.  As a counter argument, I told them the story of the Lost Boys of the Sudan, who, when thrown on their own resources after the total destruction of their home town, including the schools, organized to care for the littlest and traveled, on foot and mostly by night, more than a thousand miles to the relative safety of a refugee camp in another country.  They had survived because their teachers said “Run into the woods and hide, and we’ll come and get you when it’s safe”, but then the teacher were killed also.

This is how people, even children, really behave in an emergency, I told my children.  That book is an abomination, if only because so many young persons are forced to read it.  It’s a fictional version of Hobbes’ argument about the real nature of mankind, if government (read, the big stick) did not intervene: “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short”.  (So there! says Hobbes, but just because he was a master of the language doesn’t make him right.)

The problem is that some parents think they are “the government”, rather than being the worse side of human nature.

Comment #102: Older  on  02/23  at  04:04 PM

Kids will always attempt to avoid detection in order to avoid punishment, whether the punishment is time out or being grounded or getting spanked or no dessert.

When a kid has a CLEAR WARNING to desist behavior to avoid spanking (and I am in agreement, if your kid is bolting for the street, you don’t have time to give the warning, and I don’t think spanking is warranted in that situation, just get them to safety and then deal with it some other way), then it’s actually part of developing healthy risk, because then the kid says “if I don’t stop doing this I’m going to regret it.” If you just get wholloped without any sort of moment where you have to consciously decide if the bad behavior is really worth it, that’s a different kettle of fish. I was about the most boring teenager you could have known because I didn’t want to fuck up my life. I had clear warnings when I was little.

Comment #103: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  04:07 PM

I’ve never met a toddler who required swatting to behave, and I’ve cared for dozens of them.  Every child over about 18 months could understand if I just made the effort.  If your child doesn’t respond to verbal commands, then maybe you are demanding too much of him.  Expecting kids not to wriggle around or to stay focused on the same task for hours is just unrealistic.  No amount of hitting can make them perfectly still, quiet, and obedient.

For an illustration of a situation in which swatting could be effective, emjaybee@74 wrote this:

The other time he got swats was when he was younger, he would collapse deliberately (didn’t want to hold my hand) in the middle of the street while crossing it. He’s not light, and he nearly got us killed by oncoming traffic while I struggled to haul him to safety. What is the appropriate punishment for this? A swat got his attention and got him on his feet. And may have saved our lives.

And I wouldn’t use “punishment” as a descriptive term of this kind of swatting, but it is effective with some kids who, maybe, need to get the fuck out of the middle of the road.  Yes, it is the parent’s responsibility to keep hold of the kid and keep them safe, but, again, small children are easily distracted and quick and we don’t live in a perfect world where everything is puppies and rainbows all the time and our kids never, ever slip our grasp and/or get distracted or willful at times when it just isn’t safe to do so.  I live the real world where everything is not perfect, and despite my best efforts, sometimes, with some kids, attention needs to be gained quickly in the interest of safety.

Comment #104: ks  on  02/23  at  04:07 PM

It is the caregiver’s duty to supervise the child, not hit them until they agree to stay in one spot.

Yes, but sometimes you need to fucking cross the street with that child

Comment #105: ks  on  02/23  at  04:09 PM

Laurie,  think about this.  You seem to have neglected the balance of my post - the age at which children are mobile.  Contrary to popular belief, one doesn’t shadow a 2 y o around 24/7.  Now think about most homes today - open concept.

Yes, one can, with a little bit of subterfuge see if a child has learned. 

Stove -reach- NO-stove -reach- swat - cry.  Parent leaves room.  Parent peaks around corner.  Child looks at stove- looks at hand - walks away.  Yep, I’d be pretty certain with my kids.  I’d also move anything on stove to back burner. 

I think there’s also a bit of trust being built here. By that, I mean that just the redirecting without an “accessible to the child association,” can and should be considered by the child a lack of warning. Should the child still reach for the stove after a swat anyway (and really, no parent can police 100% of the time, and, as this blog always points out, it’s the voice of privilege to assume a SAHM or SAHD who has infinite time and can just wait until a child naps to uhm, take a shower or cook a meal) the child learns that parents say no for a reason; they really did “tell you so.”

Comment #106: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  04:11 PM

then it’s actually part of developing healthy risk, because then the kid says “if I don’t stop doing this I’m going to regret it.”

The point I’ve been trying to make is that they’ll only regret it because of the pain they receive, whereas most children have the ability to regret something because of the harm it causes to other people.  When I got lost at the beach, I was terrified that my mom would get angry and punish me.  But when I found her, she cried from relief and I realized how much I had worried her.  Knowing that I had frightened someone I love had a far bigger impact than any type of punishment could ever have, and I learned not to wander off.

Comment #107: bananacat  on  02/23  at  04:11 PM

Everyone enjoys phase 4, but then the person beaten into submission starts to act like a human being again, seeking to control their own life and express their individuality, and things get tense again, and then there’s a beating.

Or hell, maybe even the beatings take, and then… well, you’ve just got a broken-ass kid who gives the hell up, and then the parents sit there wondering what happened.

I mean I’m sure for some of these people beating every spark of life or spirit out of a kid is the point but a lot of times it seems like they just haven’t really put a lot of thought into what success is actually gonna look like.

Comment #108: Dan  on  02/23  at  04:13 PM

First, to echo others, occasional spanking, whatever you think of it, is just not in the same class as what’s described here. What’s chilling is the rhetoric that attempts to make abuse like this as normal as occasional spanking.

Second, some pointers to recent research on spanking, which suggest that cultural context and duration of spanking are relevant, but that spanking (again, mild & occasional) toddlers has a long-term effect somewhere between none at all and mildly positive.
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/nurtureshock/archive/2009/12/30/never-been-spanked.aspx

Third, to the parents here who’ve somehow never been angry at their children ... you must be very exceptional, or have exceptional children. The rest of us, however, have to work at reacting as well as we can. It’s hard work.

Comment #109: jreffell  on  02/23  at  04:13 PM

catgirl—and when a kid has the ability to empathize, then you should work with that

Because
spanking
should
be
the
last
resort

But if your kid hasn’t yet figured out how to empathize then they won’t give two shits about how much harm they’re going to cause someone else.

Comment #110: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  04:15 PM

catgirl, it’s hard to teach a kid that getting hit by a car hurts and still have yourself a kid, if the child is too young to have much in the way of abstract thinking skills. It’s comparatively much easier to teach a kid that trying to step into a busy road gets them hit by a parent then let them learn by getting hit by a car.

In my experience, people who’ve never cared for children for extended periods of time often have no idea of how much toddlers are wriggly little bundles of danger-seeking behavior. You can’t childproof the world, it’s developmentally unhealthy to childproof your house entirely and then never ever go outside (though on a spiritual level, that is the Quiverfull homeschooler approach), and if you’re doing something selfish like caring for a child and trying to buy groceries at the same time like some kind of sybarite there’s going to be a moment when your back is turned and a kid who doesn’t understand boundaries and has no abstract thinking skills yet is entirely likely to choose that moment to dive in front of an oncoming SUV. Setting boundaries for young children is difficult - you try explaining to a two-year-old that they’re going to, at some point in the future, fail to receive ice cream and making it stick - and it’s why being a parent can be hard.

But there’s caring for children and setting boundaries in a way that assumes that children have minds and wills that can be engaged in a common goal of getting home and having spaghetti without getting hit by trucks (even if they don’t have a lot of the related cognitive skills yet) and then there’s the idea that collective order can only be achieved by the subjugation of the less powerful to the more powerful. There’s a difference, and that difference is kind of important to my view.

Comment #111: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  04:15 PM

Yes, but sometimes you need to fucking cross the street with that child

So hold their hand so they can’t run away, or put them into a stroller.  It really isn’t that hard to find alternatives to swatting.

Laurie, think about this.  You seem to have neglected the balance of my post - the age at which children are mobile.  Contrary to popular belief, one doesn’t shadow a 2 y o around 24/7.  Now think about most homes today - open concept.

Maybe you shouldn’t leave the stove on while you’re not in the kitchen.  Or you could put the child in a walker, playpen, or bedroom if it’s really that difficult to keep them away from a stove.

the child learns that parents say no for a reason

Children can also learn this by, you know, telling them the reason.  Whenever I tell children a rule, I ask them why we have that rule, to make sure they really understand it.  If a child said “Because you said so”, I would not consider that an acceptable answer.  Even very young toddlers have been able to manage this.  For children who are too young to understand, they stay in baby-proof areas.

Comment #112: bananacat  on  02/23  at  04:18 PM

oh man, doublepost. Sorry. My browser is being super-weird lately. Will respond to your response.

Comment #113: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  04:18 PM

catgirl, my argument actually wasn’t that it’s better to swat the child then grab them and, for instance, snap NO in an attention-getting tone. It was that consequences have to be immediate to very young children at a certain level of cognitive development, or it’s useless. And a lot of the “correct spanking technique” currently advocated amounts to “when we get home you’re going to get a spanking,” which relies on the same cognitive skills as saying “stop doing that right now or you’re going to get a timeout”, that is, the ability to think abstractly about the future.

Like I said: punitive spanking started a cycle of negativity with one of my parents that we never really got out of, and so I’m anti-spanking. But I think that it’s interesting that the parent who did this, incidentally, was the one who’d never cared for children before and thought logic would always work and planned to never lose their temper. The parent who had cared for multiple young children before parenting and understood that young children need immediate and firm correction, not explanation (and that sometimes young children PISS YOU THE HELL OFF and that caring for them is hard) was not a spanker.

Comment #114: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  04:27 PM

catgirl, you’re assuming that children have iron memories.

Let’s say you’re cooking spaghetti for dinner. Little kittengirl is wandering around, having a good ol’ time. Yesterday, while you were making soup, kittengirl reached for the stove. You said “No, hot!” and kittengirl made a frustrated face and toddled off, trying to process yet another verbal stricture from you. Just as you put the pasta in, you realize you really have to pee. Or the buzzer goes off on the washer and you need to switch out to the dryer. Or the phone rings in the other room.

You now have to decide: did kittengirl *really* absorb the “no, hot!” message from yesterday? If I put her in her playpen or high chair or room, she’s probably going to have a tantrum and wonder what the shit is going on because she’s behaving and being confined when you’re a toddler sucks. I don’t want to take her into the bathroom with me/I keep her out of the laundry room/I’d like a little privacy when I pee. If you turn off the stove, dinner is ruined, and besides, it will stay hot while you’re not in the room long enough for her to burn herself.

The point isn’t that you should have spanked kittengirl the day before so that she “got the message.” But rather that being a parent has demands outside of the simple binary you put forth.

Comment #115: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  04:31 PM

My, my, my Amanda isn’t that the voice of privilege.  You can work from home, therefore and evidently not at something that requires full or sustained concentration.  Now imagine if you had a meeting today, or another perhaps sick cat who needed your attention.  Now choose, Amanda, choose which one you give your attention to.  (and the regressions are because your cat isn’t learning anything, tonight it is merely sleep deprived.)

Your earlier post was also contrary to your usual idea of seeing that parent (or mother) specifically as having their own needs that deserve to be met, too.  Yes, the parent chose to be a parent, but putting the child into the chair constantly means the food is getting cold, and I’m no longer able to enjoy the time with the co-parent.  Assuming we’d already done all the preventative measures (it is not child’s bedtime, child has a few small toys or books to look at, child has been appropriately nourished, it has been explained to the child that parents need longer to finish food, and in fairness they get it, a time limit has been put on the event) then yes, the trip to the bathroom for the stern talking to or perhaps the threatened swat would happen.

Comment #116: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  04:33 PM

Dan @ 108: They know very well what all this is going to look like. Read the “Training Up a Child” handbook written by the Pearls. They explicitly say that their goal is to produce a broken child who, as a special side effect, has learned that nothing is as important as placating the all-powerful authority figure. They abuse to break the will, and then they dangle out the reward of providing the kids with a little attention and fun interaction with the abusive parent—as long as they have already given in to “wholeheartedly loving” their abuser.

Read the anecdotes about the little kids desperately seeking attention and cuddles from their abusers, and thanking their parents for hitting them. It reminds me of those stories about the people in the gulags crying when Stalin died.

Comment #117: sophronia  on  02/23  at  04:35 PM

was the one who’d never cared for children before and thought logic would always work and planned to never lose their temper. The parent who had cared for multiple young children before parenting and understood that young children need immediate and firm correction, not explanation (and that sometimes young children PISS YOU THE HELL OFF and that caring for them is hard) was not a spanker.

You’re really misrepresenting my position pretty far.  I never said that parents should never lose their temper, nor did I say that children never need correction.  But losing your temper doesn’t mean you have to spank your kid.  FWIW, I’ve cared for many children and explanation has always been very effective.  When punishment is necessary, spanking never has been.  If the kid is too young to understand explanations, then they need more supervision.  If you’re truly worried about your kid running into a busy street, then hold their freaking hand when you’re near a busy street, or put them in a stroller.

Comment #118: bananacat  on  02/23  at  04:36 PM

Children are different. I was smacked on the bottom a couple of times as a child as a result of appalling behaviour, cried for half a minute, and got over it. On the other hand, I can still vividly remember the feeling of instantaneous and overwhelming humiliation such that I knew I could never, ever face my family again because I would die of shame on the event of being sent upstairs to my room for something more minor. The thought of the “naughty step” – a punishment supposed to be humane - horrifies me, and I certainly don’t think that “think what you’ve done” is necessarily a non-harmful punishment. Any punishment can be harmful if it is carried to excess, and excess depends on the nature of the child as well as the parent.

Hang on a minute, why are we arguing about non-injuring spanking on rare occasions? This is about as relevant to the case in question as “Well, sometimes I think you have to tell a child outright she can’t have an ice-cream”/“No! You should never say ice-cream is bad, but offer an apple instead” would be if the parents had starved their child to death to stop her sinful gluttony.

Comment #119: Nineveh  on  02/23  at  04:36 PM

catgirl, you’re assuming that children have iron memories.

Of course I am not assuming that.  And besides, do you think that hitting a child will make them remember better?  If the stove is on and you don’t feel that you can trust your child to be safe around it, then don’t let your child near it.  Take the kid with you to the laundry room or bathroom, or put them in a playpen, or let them play in their bedroom.

Comment #120: bananacat  on  02/23  at  04:38 PM

Misbehavior in children is fundamentally a battle of wills.  There’s only two ways to win those—-break a person’s spirit (learned helplessness through abuse) or change the circumstances so that your will starts to look good to someone else.  Punishment is probably part of this, but it’s minor.

Misbehavior in a particular child may be “fundamentally a battle of wills.”  With another child, it may be something else entirely.  Figuring out how to raise the particular kids you are a parent to is incredibly difficult, frustrating, and challenging. 

Ta-Nehisi Coates had a couple of really good posts last month about spanking and parenting that led to excellent discussions about corporal punishment and culture, race and class.  The posts and threads are here and here.

Comment #121: Pesto  on  02/23  at  04:39 PM

What Nineveh said @ 119.

Comment #122: helen w. h.  on  02/23  at  04:40 PM

Just like many conservatives will use fictional sitcoms from the 50s as a metaphor of perfect family life.  It’s dangerous to assume that fiction is an accurate model of human behavior.
Comment #88: catgirl on 02/23 at 01:43 PM

It’s also pretty narrow-minded to say we can’t learn anything or that there is no truth in fiction.  I think there’s a lot to be said for the island (can’t escape) metaphor for the incarceration of children in schools - and the resultant cliques and bullying that occurs - and in that respect, I think LOF got it quite right.

Comment #123: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  04:40 PM

I’m 50+ and still remember the one and only time I was spanked at the age of 6; it was an awful experience being physically punished by an angry parent, which is why I made the decision never to spank my own.

Of course, then my 2-year-old was with her grandmother, wrested her hand away from her and ran into the street (she was and is an act-first-think-later sort) ; grandma gave her a hand spank on the bottom.  She got an apology from her grandma immediately after, but something about that incident worked; my daughter never ran into the street again.

Different kids need different things; I don’t know that they need swats (for sure they don’t need anything harder than that), but every family dynamic and every child is a little different. There isn’t any one discipline style that works for every child and every family.

Time out (1 minute per year of age) worked for us, but taking things or privileges away didn’t work as well.

I tend to agree with catgirl and victoria on kids’ empathy…it’s there early, but really needs to be tended to grow well, and it’s pretty easy to stifle it.

Comment #124: Alix  on  02/23  at  04:40 PM

And besides, do you think that hitting a child will make them remember better?

If you spend all day talking to your child, your child is NOT going to remember every admonishment, every instruction, every taboo.

If there’s a spanking in there, it’s going to stand out. Unpleasant, but true. Whether or not you choose to use that tool is entirely up to you, and obviously, if you spank for every little infraction, one spanking is not going to stand out from the rest.

Comment #125: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  04:45 PM

Catgirl,

Very young children don’t even understand the difference between themselves and others, most frequently, this is very obvious in the way they act towards their primary caregiving parent.  They are not capable of empathy at very young ages.  In fact, very young children don’t really have a concept of “self” let alone a concept that other selves exist.  Empathy is something that needs to be taught, as in Mighty Ponygirl’s example of telling them to think about how they would feel if someone were to do this to them.  Some children are better at a younger age at imitating empathy, but they rarely understand it well enough that they won’t occassionally do something “very bad”.  I.e., my nephew who was angelic until 2 1/2 (giving my sister the thought that perhaps she would escape the terrible twos) and who is still a kind and sharing kid most of the time, going up and whacking a little girl his age in the back of the head so hard that she fell forward in the sandbox.

Or the horror stories my sister’s friends told her about how a their infant son would always start crying whenever his toddler brother passed by, and not realizing for *months* that it was because his toddler brother was viciously pinching his toes every time he passed by. 

The reason I worry about this myth of sweet children being born virtuous is because when a child inevitably does not act that way, it pathologizes behavior that is not the child’s fault and simply part of its normal development.

On spanking—since it doesn’t work, the only time I might think about it is to create an aversion in a pre-verbal child, i.e., a two year old who breaks free and nearly runs out in the street.  Because they cannot understand/retain a verbal explanation of that.  So it is basically conditioning.  But I’m really not sure about that, either.  Conditioning humans through violence disturbs me.  I should ask my (anti-spanking) sister what she thinks about handling those situations.

Another spanking issue is that it disrespects the child’s bodily integrity—if they child’s body does not belong to him/her, and authority figures can do things to his/her body that zie does not want—well, you can see the potential future sexual and physical abuse that may leave the child open to.

Comment #126: Ismone  on  02/23  at  04:46 PM

Millions of teachers, daycare providers, and relatives manage to care for children every single day without spanking them.  Why can’t parents manage to care for the exact same children without swatting?
Comment #96: catgirl on 02/23 at 01:55 PM

Again, the voice of privilege - because daycare providers know that they have an eight hour day, a well equipped, child safe space, and that is their sole responsibility.  Often, they have another daycare person they can “hand-off” to for a second.  This is not the case for parents.  Our homes are multi-purpose and either impossible or prohibitively expensive to completely childproof. We are often multi-tasking.

But hey, you’re just looking to pick a fight with anythind I say, so have fun.  I’m about done playing   g

Comment #127: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  04:47 PM

Thank you for the link jreffell.  I’d been looking for something like that.

Comment #128: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  04:57 PM

Spanking became so routine for me I would just wait for it to be over and then went on with what I wanted to do, just being more careful at not being caught.  My sisters all got horrible beatings because they just kept confronting my mother, instead of just withdrawing more like I did.  To this day my Mother is a time-bomb to me, I never know when she will explode and loose it.  Spanking doesn’t work.

Comment #129: Vail  on  02/23  at  04:58 PM

A lot of people I know who are parents who are anti-spank feel that way because they were abused as children (not spanked, abused. Where spanking was the ONLY form of discipline, and it involved implements, and it came out of nowhere. Sort of like what Vail wrote).

And you know what, I fully understand and support them not spanking their kids. No one wants an abuse cycle to perpetuate.

Comment #130: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  05:03 PM

I haven’t read this whole thread yet because it’s raising my ire to a point where I want to call my mom yell at her for spanking me as a kid.

I was spanked and I turned out more than fine, but only after a lot of therapy and self-realization.  At this point, I want to revenge-hit my parents every time they irritate me or do something stupid since that was apparently acceptable by them:  if someone should “know better” and do it anyway, they deserve to be hit.  But no, their excuse is that it’s “different” with kids because that’s “how they learn”.  That’s the hilarious part:  what lesson was I supposed to learn at 7 years old when I was spanked because I was reading past bedtime?  To stare at the ceiling until I fall asleep?  What actual harm was I causing that would prevent me from being a good person, a fully-functional adult, etc?  Literally twenty years after those spankings, I *still* stay up late reading if I’m not tired. 

If you hit your kids as intentional discipline*, you fail as a parent and especially as a person.  Anyone who looks at an entirely powerless person and thinks “yeah!  I should totally inflict pain on that person!” is not someone I want to know.  God, do you kick dogs?  Smack people in wheelchairs?  Punch a sick person in the nose?

*That said, I’m pretty sympathetic to the idea that some people just need to be hit.  My mother couldn’t get me to stop biting people until people started biting me in return.  Some people just learn that way.

Comment #131: stubbles  on  02/23  at  05:11 PM

Another spanking issue is that it disrespects the child’s bodily integrity—if they child’s body does not belong to him/her, and authority figures can do things to his/her body that zie does not want—well, you can see the potential future sexual and physical abuse that may leave the child open to.
Comment #126: Ismone on 02/23 at 02:46 PM

Did you read jreffell’s link -it seems to say this is not the case.  And if you think about it, it’s logical.  Again, the difference between formalized spanking and a swat-of course the kid is upset about their body not being all theirs - that’s the point- very often, it is a Hobbesian concept - if I invade x’s sapce (hitting, biting) then they get to invade mine by proxy (parental swat)  therefore, I won’t invade x’s space and s/he won’t invade mine.  That idea of space can be expanded to rules - hot stove, inchair at mealtime. 

An occasional swat does not mean the child accepts that disrespect of bodily integrity, but rather that they want to avoid it.  A swat is defined as something that may sting, and often very little, so it isn’t the pain, but the above.

Comment #132: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  05:12 PM

catgirl, I was representing a split on parenting philosophy in my family which illustrates why I worry about people who report that toddlers respond to logic. When people understand the built-in cognitive limits of tiny squishy baby brains, I think it helps them keep from snapping and overreacting, violently or otherwise, when it’s obvious that a kid just doesn’t have the skills to respond appropriately. The process of teaching limits is also the process of teaching the skills necessary to respect - or choose to push - those limits. So someone who hits a kid because the kid needs to learn that their Word is Law is teaching a different skill than someone who grabs the kid and goes “trucks are dangerous!”, but they’re both providing a limit to a child who comes with very few built in. I have strong feelings that the latter is better than the former.

I agree that there’s a privilege component here. Your argument is that you should physically keep a kid separated from something dangerous until they can understand a full explanation, as opposed to teaching them to avoid them on their own. I’m not sure that that’s cognitively appropriate, but moreover it assumes that environments with hazards will be occasional interruptions in a largely babyproofed existence that will encompass both caretaker and child until the age of reason. Honestly, I’m also frustrated by Amanda’s fairly standard childfree person argument that a child in a public space is the sole responsibility of the caretaker and having to intervene comprises an undue burden (if one I’m glad she took on for that child’s safety). I really think there’s a huge blind spot in our culture about how the assumption that one should never have to interact with someone else’s child in public - combined with the fact that it’s now tantamount to announcing you’re a child molester to try - doesn’t just disenfranchise children from their role as members of society, it’s also viciously isolating towards the primary caretakers of infants and children, who are, shall I say, rarely men.

Comment #133: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  05:13 PM

This is actually my biggest fear about home schooling.

I’m not anti-home schooling—people home-school for a lot of reasons, some of them quite sensible (what do you do if the local public schools suck?), and the kids often turn out great.

But what about the parents who do it because the kid’s resulting isolation allows them to implement this sort of abuse? Harris’s article implies that beating the crap out of your kids is widely used and rationalized in the “Christian”-based home-schooling community. (1) Public schools, even the worst, permit kids a degree of reality check, and access to authority figures who are not their parents. How do you make sure home-schooled kids have those same resources?

_________
(1) The 7-year-old girl in the article was beaten to death for mispronouncing a word. She was adopted with her older sister from an orphanage in Liberia; the sister was in listed in critical condition as of last week. Apparently, the adopted children in this household (there is also a 3-year-old girl from the same orphanage) were beaten much more severely than the couple’s biological kids. (Because they were adopted? Because they were black?)

But at least the kids weren’t adopted by gays!

Interestingly, the parents are using different lawyers; he’s retained a private lawyer, she’s got a PD. Which suggests to me that (a) he alone has access to the family financial resources, and (b) he’s okay with throwing the missus under a bus.

Comment #134: Molly, NYC  on  02/23  at  05:17 PM

I just don’t buy this stuff about hitting kids to keep them safe.  Millions of parents manage to keep their kids away from hot stoves and fast cars without spanking them.  Teachers and daycare providers keep multiple kids safe at a time without ever swatting them.  Swatting isn’t abuse, but it’s not necessary.  If your kid can’t understand to stay away from a hot stove unless you hit them, then they shouldn’t be anywhere near the stove.

Comment #135: bananacat  on  02/23  at  05:20 PM

Honestly, I’m also frustrated by Amanda’s fairly standard childfree person argument that a child in a public space is the sole responsibility of the caretaker and having to intervene comprises an undue burden

But even reading this thread, can you blame her?  Furthermore, if I’m in a public space, and someone Not My Child That I Don’t Know is behaving inappropriately, about the only way I step in is if the child is running out onto the train tracks or yanking on the tablecloth that has hot coffee on it. And on the rare occasions where I have plucked a small child away from something like that, I always worry that someone is going to see me and think I’m snatching.

Comment #136: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  05:22 PM

I really think there’s a huge blind spot in our culture about how the assumption that one should never have to interact with someone else’s child in public - combined with the fact that it’s now tantamount to announcing you’re a child molester to try - doesn’t just disenfranchise children from their role as members of society, it’s also viciously isolating towards the primary caretakers of infants and children, who are, shall I say, rarely men.

Lots of truth here.  Not long ago I watched a kid wander towards traffic and stifled my first impulse to run over and intervene because I don’t want to end up on the wrong end of witch hunting hysteria.  I got close enough to sprint if there was trouble, but distracted mom turned around in time.  There is something utterly horrible about the fact I even had to make the calculation about whether to intervene to protect someone completely innocent, and all because child molesters boost TV ratings but harmless helpful strangers don’t.

And yes, the omnicompetent parent model increasingly promoted by people who either don’t have kids or can afford full time nannies is not just selfish and antisocial, it’s also misogynist in practice.

Comment #137: togolosh  on  02/23  at  05:25 PM

phylospher,

Just did—it did not measure childrens’ vulnerability to sexual or physical abuse.  I’d have to see a better explanation of the methodology to determine whether the outcomes were actually good or not—yes, people should do well for themselves—but our educational system is very conformist.  I say this as a person who excelled in it.  I am a little disturbed, at times, by my relationship with authority and by the authoritarian structures in our society.

Molly,

For conflicts reasons, one of them may have had to use a private lawyer while the other uses a PD—it is possible that the private lawyer was court-appointed.

Comment #138: Ismone  on  02/23  at  05:26 PM

I’m reading through the thread now and getting more and more pissed at the apologia for hitting children, even occasionally/in super special instances.

I’m sympathetic to the idea that some people need to be hit; kids are people too, therefore, some kids just need to be hit.  I’ve always approached it from a perspective of whether I’d hit the person if they were 35 instead of 5.  If a 35 year old was biting me after I told them to stop because it hurt, would I hit them?  Yes, yes I would.  If a 35 year old crossed the street without looking both ways and I had to pull them out moments before getting flattened by a truck, would I hit them?  No, I would not and if I did, I hope to god that person would beat the shit out of me because *I* would deserve it in that instance.  What lesson are you expected to learn from getting hit after someone rescues you from a busy street?  I was spanked a few times for that and I still fail at crossing the street way too often and rely on the kindness of strangers/friends to save me from death.  The difference between me and a 5 year old is that I have about about 5 extra feet to my height and drivers can see me and hit their brakes in time.  You can’t tell me that you’ve never darted across the street as an adult?

Comment #139: stubbles  on  02/23  at  05:27 PM

catgirl, former friend had two young daughters. Daughter #1 was very tame and well-behaved, daughter #2 was off-the-charts hyperactive. If my friend went to a department store and Daughter #1s shoes became untied and friend stooped down to tie the shoes, Daughter #2 would TAKE OFF. Way too hyperactive to understand and remember not to bolt off when mom’s head was turned.

So, what’s the option? Can the friend never leave the safety of the house with both girls?

She didn’t spank her younger daughter.

She put her on a leash.

Which I understand is just as “abusive” according to some people as spanking. But she did what she had to do to keep her kid safe by her side. And yes, her daughter ended up on her ass a lot because she bolted and reached the end of her tether. Probably hurt about as much as a spanking did.

Comment #140: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  05:29 PM

stubbles,

The idea behind the swat (and five is too old, because they are old enough to understand) is conditioning.  That’s why it might (and in my mind, the jury is out) be appropriate to do that to a pre-verbal/pre-logical child—because the only way to prevent someone that age from engaging in the behavior may be (in the parent’s view) conditioning.

Mighty Ponygirl,

I knew another parent who had to leash one of her children.  I had always thought parents who did that were stupid/bad parents, but no, with some kids, there is simply no way to keep them safe.  And yeah, the kid I knew probably got injured a few times by the leash.

Comment #141: Ismone  on  02/23  at  05:33 PM

Catgirl, I don’t think we’re arguing that spanking is the only way to keep kids safe. We are saying that something immediate and harsh is necessary for kids who can’t understand abstract concepts yet. Provide alternate examples and we’ll discuss them. “Explaining” is insufficient as a technique unless we discuss how “explanation” can be modified to mean “PUT THAT DOWN NOW, HENRY” combined with physical intervention for kids who aren’t in a position to understand that the fork and the socket can’t be friends, and escalate from there without hitting if the kid isn’t averted from finding forks and sockets in the future. (Yes, I have used socket covers, but my younger brother actually scaled the kitchen counter to try this experiment and we didn’t think we needed to cover sockets that were six feet off the floor. His name is not Henry.)

Togolosh and Mighty Ponygirl, absolutely. It’s an intractable problem. I’m an inveterate busybody and was well-known in my neighborhood when I nannied, so I was constantly doing things like saying “The dog doesn’t like that, Crystal! Stop poking the dog! The dog is going to bite you! Okay, I’m taking you to your mother.” to other people’s children, but then, it was a small community and I register to middle-class suburbanites as harmless.

Comment #142: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  05:34 PM

The only time I ever felt like spanking my kids was when I was so angry I felt like killing them, so I thought it best, for their sake and for mine, to take spanking off the table as an option.

My experience with spanking is interesting, if anecdotal. My older sister and I were spanked - to the point of abuse on many occasions. I was punched in the face several times, I had a chair broken over my head, a was thrown into a table, and my sister experienced similar things, including an instance where she was threatened with a pipe (but cooler heads prevailed). My mother stopped taking us to the doctor for these “discipline related injuries” because she didn’t like the questions they asked.

Our younger siblings - between 5-10 years younger - were never spanked. But just having witnessed the abuse that my older sister and I took had an impact on them. My brother and youngest sister have zero relationship with my father because of the abuse - abuse that they witnessed, but did not physically experience.

I think parents who justify spanking as a tool are experiencing a failure of imagination when it comes to discipline.

Comment #143: maurinsky  on  02/23  at  05:35 PM

But Mighty Ponygirl, being hurt because you fell on your ass by accident, or even because you touched a hot stove for an instant, is not the same as being deliberately hit by the person upon whom you depend for your life.  The latter is an entirely different kind of hurt, with much longer term consequences. 

There are adults who do dangerous things too—elderly people with dementia who wander off, or people with severe cognitive disabilities who may be likely to touch a hot stove.  We don’t hit them to get the safety message across to them.  We watch them so they don’t get into these situations in the first place.  I am not saying it is easy, but for some reason we draw a moral line against hitting careless or evil adults while still thinking it is fine to hit helpless children.

Comment #144: Laurie  on  02/23  at  05:35 PM

Depending on her age, why not fucking ask the kid what would help her remember not to take off?  Lay out a few options:  she can run off and get kidnapped, she can get a spanking in public, or she can wear a leash, which does she want?  Again, if I had this problem with a 24 year old, I’d say “I keep you losing you when we go to the store together.  Should we arrange a meeting place and check in every 20 minutes?  Should we make sure we have our cell phones charged?  Or should I hit you every time you leave my side?” 

Why can’t we just treat kids like people with the self-interest to not fuck their lives up?

Comment #145: stubbles  on  02/23  at  05:36 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, we were all leashed until we were old enough to unhook the (small, velcro wrist)leashes. My mother figured it was a two-step process and required some abstract thinking, so at that point we could darn well learn to stand near her on our own or at least identify ourselves to a mall cop if we managed to escape her supervision.

Comment #146: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  05:37 PM

Mighty Ponygirl - no need to be so defensive.  I did read your comments but obviously I missed the part where you said whether or not you are a parent.  My bad.

I’m actually trying to have a discussion here, not score points at anyone’s expense, and I am sure that I did not behave otherwise, so I’m unsure as to where the hostility comes from.

I still stand by my belief, based on reams of research in child development, that there is nothing to be gained by spanking.

It’s obvious that swatting and spanking and hitting with a belt and hitting with plumbing line are not the same thing, but they ARE all on a continuum, and although many (most?) parents may have swatted their kids in utter frustration, that doesn’t mean that was a *good* thing - it just shows how good people, and good parents, can engage in behavior that exists on a continuum of abuse.  Hitting children is not OK.  Swatting them isn’t, either, but to say so is not to equate swatting with child abuse.

Comment #147: teabea  on  02/23  at  05:38 PM

What is hitting them suppose to do, Ismone?  Condition them to what?!  Look both ways?  Don’t leave their parents’ side?  That’s so inconsistent.  Sometimes they leave their owners’ side and don’t get hit, sometimes they do and they get hit.  These pre-verbal/pre-logical are supposed to have the cognitive development to understand that the “street” is where they can’t leave their side but “playground” is perfectly acceptable?

Comment #148: stubbles  on  02/23  at  05:40 PM

Way too hyperactive to understand and remember not to bolt off when mom’s head was turned.

Stubbles’ response?
Depending on her age, why not fucking ask the kid what would help her remember not to take off?

Am I the only person who can read for comprehension?

Comment #149: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  05:41 PM

stubbles,

It doesn’t mean we have to spank them, but for the really little ones, we cannot treat them like adults because they have poor impulse control/can’t see ahead.  Yes, you should try to reason with them, but what sort of reasoning works is different for a 24-year-old and a 2-year-old.  (In fact, reaching 2-3 year olds is nearly impossible—at that age, you mostly have to exert control.  Which doesn’t have to include spanking.) 

That doesn’t mean we cannot treat them with respect—but the way you treat a child with respect varies with their stage of development, personality, and level of understanding.

Comment #150: Ismone  on  02/23  at  05:42 PM

Millions of teachers, daycare providers, and relatives manage to care for children every single day without spanking them.  Why can’t parents manage to care for the exact same children without swatting?

Because daycare providers and teachers only have the children for limited amounts of time in constrained situations.

Parents are there all the time.  Parents are the ones children rebel against the most.  It’s a completely different relationship, even if it all falls under the heading “child care”.

I’m not advocating spanking here, but don’t try to conflate how a child behaves for teachers and/or daycare providers with how they behave at home.  They are completely different situations, and children are capable of manifesting completely different reactions depending on the situation.

Same thing with the “why can’t parents always protect their children from the hot stove/street/electrical outlets?”  Because you can’t be everywhere all the time.  Because kids move quickly.  Because even if you’ve child-proofed everything, accidents can happen.  Because sometimes you have to take care of one child while the other is free to roam.  And because kids shouldn’t live in child-proof bubbles.  They should learn the word “no” and understand some things are not to be touched—be they hot stoves or fragile knickknacks.

That does not mean you have to spank them to teach them “no”.

I have spanked.  I have never used anything other than my hand, and it’s been a rare thing.  In fact, we joke about “spank butt” and chase each other around the house “spanking” (it’s kind of like tag, but maybe you have to be there) b/c it’s just not a punishment we use.  My husband was beat with a big black belt—and while he will always deny it was abuse, he has deferred to me when it comes to the kids.

I’d kill him and then take the kids if he ever hit them with a belt.
———————————————

As for empathy, children are selfish.  You have to teach them to share/care, even if they do it on their own at times.  They may have an innate ability for empathy, but it’s taught behavior. 

Even at Stanford, freshmen at 18 don’t think about how their actions affect other people.  I RAed in a frosh dorm, and the dissonance amazed me: they really didn’t think.  Quiet hours would be at 11, and at 11:15 someone would crank the music.  I’d go knock on the door and say “Hey, it’s after hours, turn the music down,” and they’d immediately be apologetic and turn it down b/c while they know intellectually what they do affects others, it just hadn’t crossed their minds that THIS action RIGHT NOW is affecting other people.  They’d be embarrassed, but it took forever for them to think about others before acting.

They were 17-18 years old!  But they’d never lived away from home and they needed to learn how to respect others in reality, not just intellectually.  Children?  They’re just not very nice unless you teach them to be.

Comment #151: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/23  at  05:42 PM

And, YES to all of Laurie’s posts!  smile  Children are somehow the last group that we’ve decided it’s OK to hit - most people I know don’t even think it’s OK to hit dogs (or “swat” them) to train them, or that ‘some dogs just need a swat when other techniques fail’.  But yet on a site where someone would not think of justifying hitting a partner or an elderly person, or an animal, even to teach them an important lesson, people feel the need to say over and over again that it’s OK - in some limited way, of course - to hit children.

It’s not OK.

Comment #152: teabea  on  02/23  at  05:43 PM

Also, Laurie, the kid knows why they fell on their ass.

Because mom put the leash on them and mom wouldn’t let go of the leash

It’s still mom’s fault, sure as mom spanking him or her.

Comment #153: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  05:43 PM

What about same-sex couples who are also Christian? Also, should we really ban 75% of this country from adopting children?  Please, you should know better than judge entire groups. 

The jest lies in inverting their typical screed.

Of course Christians should not be banned as a group from anything. Nor, obviously to us, should homosexuals be banned as a group from anything. Yet they are.

It’s also obvious to us that Christians and homosexuals are not mutually exclusive… even if the confluence confuses many of us who are neither. Again though, that does not seem to be the operating conclusion on the other side of the issue.

Comment #154: Sarcastro  on  02/23  at  05:44 PM

Like any conditioning, it is supposed to teach them not to repeat that identical dangerous action.  So depending on the child and how they interpret what they were doing, it may be, don’t run in the street, don’t leave parent’s side without permission.

It’s spanking as communication, not punishment—and again, I’m not sure if I agree with it.

Comment #155: Ismone  on  02/23  at  05:44 PM

Oh, Mighty Ponygirl, I see.  So we treat her like she’s a fucking idiot her entire life?  Is that it?  We just assume she’s always hyperactive and “forgetful” and can’t engaged in a conversation about her behavior.  You know better than I do in this particular situation, obviously, but my sister had the exact same “problem” and my mom solved it the same way using the same reasoning:  she’s hyperactive and “forgetful”.  My sister and I both knew, however, that she was bored out of her fucking mind and just took off to get some excitement.  The leash, fortunately, provided excitement enough for the both of us, especially when we would intentionally walk around a pole and make Mom untangle us.  Good times.

Comment #156: stubbles  on  02/23  at  05:46 PM

Stubbles, you’re being willfully obtuse.

Walking comes before reason. I’m sorry to have to break this to you on a blog, but a child learns to walk and run well before they learn self control.

So what, again, do you suggest? That my friend not leave the house with her daughters until she’s absolutely certain that her smaller child be able to carefully articulate and hold to commitments not to run off?

Comment #157: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  05:49 PM

Stubbles, Mighty Ponygirl, I was about to say. There’s a step in the middle between walking and abstract thinking where a child doesn’t actually understand that there’s a person holding the leash. They just know that they start to run and then they stop. This is the same thing as how toddlers sometimes get their heads stuck in cabinets because they only know how to move forwards.

If parents in my town are any indication, the current trend is to physically strap a child into a stroller until age four or five. I really don’t think that’s any more appropriate than the other options we’re discussing, the swat (not the beating - like I said, I’m anti-spanking myself - if something hurts as opposed to merely startling, we’re already so far over the line that the line is a dot to me), the Stern No, or the velcro kiddie leash. I mean, physically restraining a child all the time in public and keeping them immobile seems a little much to me. As does keeping the whole family shut up in the house all the time.

Comment #158: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  05:55 PM

*a little much to me, I mean, but I can see where you’re driven to it because in our current hypercritical environment it’s the most acceptable option.

Comment #159: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  05:56 PM

Okay, I’m going to diverge from the Great Spanking Debate with this:

“you teach them not to touch things by deliberately steering them towards attractive forbidden objects and then hitting them when they go to touch them, and repeating this until they don’t touch. “

Was anyone else reminded of the scene in the start of Brave New World where the graduate students watch Delta babies going through aversion therapy against books and flowers?  They go towards the books and the flowers, the floor shocks them, they grow up to hate books and the countryside (although they love country sports).  If Huxley’s reasoning is correct, will these kids hate porcelain vases and crystal figurines?

Comment #160: Maureen  on  02/23  at  05:56 PM

As a few people have noted, most of this is an aside from the real topic: the Pearl’s thinkg children should be taught to always obey and they should be taught this by corporal punishment:

“Light, swatting spankings, done in anger without courtroom dignity will make children mad because they sense that they have been bullied by an antagonists. A proper spanking leaves children without breath to complain.”

But (damn me), I can’t stay away from the aside. A generation or two ago the dominant method to train dogs was by punishment, now it’s reward and punishment is almost universally looked down on. Almost all the reasons given for spanking children apply to puppies (they don’t listen, they’re impulsive, they don’t have empathy,  ...) and yet corporal punishment doesn’t seem to be needed there, so why with children? I don’t think the spanking that people here are advocating counts as abuse, but I don’t think it’s ever needed for young children.

Comment #161: JohnL  on  02/23  at  05:57 PM

So she knows why her mom put her on a leash, she knows what the consequences are of running off, but it’s still a craaaaazzzzzyyyyyy idea to TALK TO HER about why she acts the way she does?  A simple “why do you run away from me when we’re at the store?”  Has that ever been tried?  While in the car, driving to the store?  On the way home from the store?  Idle conversation over dinner, even?

I’m really curious here.  Kids seem to like me a lot even though I can’t stand being around them.  Part of my reason for not liking them is because I don’t know how to talk to them so I talk to them as though they are my age about things I’m interested in.  Why did you throw your food?  Why do you like that dress?  Why won’t you use a toilet?  (That last one is pretty awesome:  I asked my friend’s three year old why he was still in diapers and he said he almost fell in once and it was scary.  I told this to my friend and she looked at the booster seat thing and saw how it could be wobbly and fixed it.) 

Not saying I’m a parenting genius, but I am saying that maybe people who hate talking to kids shouldn’t have kids.

Comment #162: stubbles  on  02/23  at  05:58 PM

This stuff is warped—taken from one of the links Amanda posted:

“There is only one reason that he would express anger when he did not get his way; because such displays have, at least occasionally, caused him to get his way. He is manipulating you. The fact that he continues to do it tells me that it occasionally works. You give in. You have successfully trained him to respond as he does.”

(Talking about a child displaying anger when he didn’t like his breakfast.)  Um, no, that is not the only reason why children display anger—they throw tantrums even when tantrums don’t work.  (Although it wouldn’t surprise me if they threw more tantrums if tantrums did work.)  Being a child is very frustrating—there is a lot of development and stimulation going on, and sometimes it is entirely too much.  Plus children have very little control, and their wishes (what to eat, what to wear, where to go) are often entirely ignored.  This is very frustrating for anyone.  And children generally lack the sophistication to express frustration in an “adult” manner.  So do some adults.

Comment #163: Ismone  on  02/23  at  05:59 PM

Since when did reins become abusive? Surely the point of reins is that they are liberating to both parent and child – they allow a young child who needs to be kept close in a public place much greater freedom of movement and independence of action than being strapped in a pushchair or even by being held by the hand.

Comment #164: Nineveh  on  02/23  at  06:00 PM

And notice that this approach is even used with dogs that have been abused so bad that they attack anybody (and here ‘attack’ isn’t a euphemism for a bit of a bite, but trying to kill you).

Comment #165: JohnL  on  02/23  at  06:01 PM

No, she doesn’t know why her mom put her on a leash. The why is the last thing a kid learns, and until they learn the why, the only assumption they have is that you, the parent, suck.

All she knows is that she’s been put on a leash, and that mom is the one who did it. If she understands WHY she’s on the leash, then she’s ready to start learning not to.

Comment #166: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  06:02 PM

I find it fascinating that in a thread about beating a child to death, the vast majority of the discussion ends up being about swats that get attention.

They aren’t and can’t be, part of the same conversation. And a big part of that is because people like us have these conversations and treat a fairly gentle swat on the butt as though it was the same thing as what these monsters did - and what the other monsters specifically advocated their doing.

I remember two -two- incidents as a child where I got a single swat with a bedroom slipper - my mother’s standard nuclear option. Her most common weapon was informing us how disappointed she was with our behavior, which, if necessary, got escalated to time out on a dining room chair. The premeditated slipper swat was understood by all concerned to be The Last Straw, and reserved for Unforgivable Behavior.

So, yeah, I got swatted. But there is no way I would even begin to discuss my mom’s discipline as part of the same discussion that includes beating a child with implements with the explicit goal of breaking them down to whimpering puddles. It simply isn’t the same thing, any more than discussing depriving an inmate of cable television belongs in a discussion of waterboarding and other torture.

I think it is irresponsible to even have the discussion this way, because you know damn well the Fundies beating their kids aren’t going to even think about it, much less discuss it.

Comment #167: Lymis  on  02/23  at  06:02 PM

Amanda wrote

...the continued debating over the line between forcing someone to submit and overt abuse that goes on in this world completely misses the point.

Big time.

Comment #168: Check it  on  02/23  at  06:03 PM

“...you signed up for this when you decided to have a baby.”

What, they signed up to discipline their child according to your methods, or else not go out in public at all?  I’m sorry Amanda, but by going to a public place, you “signed up” for the tedious chore of dealing with people, and that includes children being children.  Have some sympathy for people who are also just trying to have dinner out with their loved ones, and please don’t condescend to give them armchair parenting advice. 

Do you also complain about those annoying people who disturb your airplane trips by bringing their babies along?

Comment #169: charles w  on  02/23  at  06:03 PM

stubbles,

Of course you should talk to them too.  Also, what you described, talking to children in a complex manner as though they were adults is sort of the “newest thing.”  But, at the same time, people who are using that method to try and get the child to behave should realize the child might not do what they are asked like an adult would.

Some parents are kind of horrified when they hear me talking honestly with my nieces about “grown up” subjects.  For that reason, it is only something I do with children whose parents do it also. 

It leads some pretty funny places, too, one child I know whose parents take that philosophy got the idea that women, because they carry babies, are the limiting factor on childbirth.  Since she had one sibling, she once asked her mother these two related questions—so if you’re one mommy and you have two kids, if there were two mommies together they would have four kids, right?  Which was followed by the question “how do two mommies *stop* having kids” to which her mother explained, without getting into many details, that it was actually easier for two mommies to plan children.

But in the gap between running and understanding, although you should keep talking to the kid about why they shouldn’t run, for some kids, the leash makes sense.  For a while.  But yeah, if you never talk to the kid, they probably won’t figure it out.

Comment #170: Ismone  on  02/23  at  06:06 PM

Lymis, the difference is that people who “occasionally” “swat” their kids as “gentle” “appropriate” discipline think they are WAAAYYYYYYY better parents than fundies who beat kids into submission.  It’s no shock that beating kids isn’t appropriate, we all know that.  What *is* a shock for some people here is that some of us don’t think they should be allowed to hit a child for running into the street.  That’s supposed to be a sacrosanct moment in child abuse, I’m sorry, child rearing that Everyone Understands is appropriate.  And since we’re okay with hitting them in that instance, then surely it’s okay to hit them when they come near a stove.  They can’t possibly learn any other way because they’re just too stupid.  Or near a staircase, or when they know you’re in a bad mood but you’re really sorry and it’ll never happen again like that until it does.

Comment #171: stubbles  on  02/23  at  06:11 PM

Ismone, and you haven’t even gotten into the level of “training up a child” where they advocate keeping newborns on feeding schedules so that they don’t “manipulate” their families. It’s led to a couple well-documented cases of failure to thrive. It’s really sad.

I also wonder if it’s the reason why Quiverfull mothers often have unnaturally large families - there’s no reason at all why someone who exclusively breastfeeds should be getting pregnant every year or even having a baby every two years, but if the feeding schedules mean that babies are only nursing every five or six hours then people are probably becoming fertile far earlier than is normal.

Lymis, I think you’re right. It’s such a tempting derail, though.

Comment #172: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  06:12 PM

charles—when you have kids, you sign up to adjust your kids to society. That’s your fucking job. If your kid is rip-tearing around a nice restaurant and risking knocking over tables, then yes, you absolutely SIGNED UP for that chore of making sure your kid isn’t a holy terror.  Whether or not you spank your kids as a means of getting them to behave is your business, but if it’s not effective, then you need to try something else. If your kid is blasting around the restaurant and you’re “methods” of non-physical punishment aren’t working, you have two choices: you either step up and correct your child, or you pay and leave.

Amanda isn’t talking about having her evening ruined, RUINED I say! by the kid next to her blowing bubbles in his milk with his straw. She’s talking about a kid that is rip-tearing around a restaurant, underfoot of the waiters, knocking shit over.

A restaurant is not a plane trip and you know it, and furthermore, stop trying to put words into her mouth. When she starts complaining about babies on airplanes—which are frequently a matter of necessity unlike a fancy restaurant—then you can drag that little bit of overwrought outrage you’ve been nursing like a security blanket. Until then, why not focus on what’s actually being said, instead of the straw arguments you so desperately want to address?

Comment #173: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  06:12 PM

stubbles, WTF are you talking about?  Have you ever met a toddler?

Comment #174: lonespark  on  02/23  at  06:14 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, I understand it more as mutual obligation. You as a parent have a responsibility to make sure your child can live in society, and society has a responsibility to tolerate and even support you in the process. (Like every waiter and waitress who complimented me on having good manners when I was five or six - okay, yes, they were partially sucking up to get a tip, but you better bet I sat up straighter and chewed with my mouth closed in restaurants because of it.) You’re not just keeping your kid from harassing patrons, after all - you’re also enculturating them in ways that will be important to their continued ability to navigate the world as an adult. Children who are courteous and charming often grow up to be courteous and charming adults, and I cling to the hope that that makes some kind of difference.

Comment #175: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  06:18 PM

I haven’t finished the entire thread, but just wanted to address emjaybee’s comment about her son and the ineffectiveness of time out.  Your son sounds like my son (and me, for what it’s worth) in that once he hits a particular level of anger/frustration he is unable to stop himself from escalating toward a physical manifestation of his emotions—like throwing or damaging things. 

In my personal experience and experience with my son, you cannot attempt to shut it down by telling him to stop or telling him to get control of himself. You have to validate the emotions: if he needs to scream let him scream; if he starts getting physical, give him paper, a phonebook or something to shred with his hands or a pillow to punch; if he seems like he may harm himself or others, physically restrain him with a bear hug on the floor.  You have to redirect the physical rage into something productive (in extinguishing the energy) and harmless.  Your job is to allow him his feelings instead of trying to suppress them and to teach him how to handle these very strong emotions in a way that does not turn abusive toward himself or others, but will also show him how to avoid becoming that angry in the first place.  Ever since I started this with my son and tell him how he can express his emotions the rages are almost gone and when they do occur last less than 10 minutes.  Maybe it helps that I am temperamentally the same.

More on topic: 

As a parent, I realize that not all children respond the same to discipline and I used to be one of those people who thought spanking was acceptable when a child seemed to respond to nothing else. But I’ve come to realize how totally illogical spanking and swatting of the hands* is for teaching your child anything other an immediate cessation of an action. 

Other than self-defense, in what other scenario is violence of any sort an acceptable response to another person’s action?  How is violence a reasonable consequence of moving into traffic, hitting a third party (c’mon really? how do you stop violence with violence?), or doing something due to lack of awareness of the consequences?  If my son runs into the street, I grab him and explain why it isn’t okay. Then I hold his hand every time we walk where there are cars. If that isn’t feasible, I make him wear his monkey backpack with the leash because it means he cannot get more than a few feet away.  In other words, if he lacks the maturity to take care of his own safety, it’s my job as his parent to change MY expectations and attend to his safety by not giving him the opportunity.  If he hits another child, then he gets a time out and apologizes to the child. If he has a persistent problem, then we leave.  If he goes near a hot stove, then I remove him from the kitchen and tell him why.  My son is willful, stubborn, and often heedless but the only time spanking ever crossed my mind was when *I* was too frustrated to come up with a better option for immediate discipline. And yet, I have never had to spank because I have taken that option off the table and forced myself to come up with more effective methods of discipline.  You know what works the best for a 3-4 year old?  A behavior chart that focused on a five key behaviors and gives positive reinforcement—like a trip the museum for a week of good behavior or a chase before bathtime for being good all day.

When parents hit or swat as a form of discipline, it teaches the child that there are non-defensive circumstances in which it is permissible to resolve problems with loved ones via violence.  If it is okay to hit loved ones under these circumstances, it is even more okay to deal with acquaintances or strangers with violence.  It rationalizes violence as acceptable social behavior.

*often more painful than spanking because the back of the hand has more nerve endings

Comment #176: history_mom  on  02/23  at  06:31 PM

purpleshoes—in Amanda’s example, I don’t really see the flipside. When I was a kid, my parents took me to nice restaurants and I was expected to behave. If I started pulling the shit Amanda’s described, I would have been taken outside right quick. When a kid is behaving well, they get lots of positive attention: after all, they’re an adorable well-behaved kid!

There has to be a minimum standard of behavior for taking your kids out to fancy restaurants. If they haven’t quite mastered inside voice (hell, I *still* haven’t), or they have trouble sitting completely still, or they play a little bit with their food, that’s an entirely different thing than the kid blasting around the restaurant.

Anecdote time! I am currently on crutches (hopefully off soon), and due to complications, I had to go to the hospital every day for close to three weeks for shots and blood tests. Yay me. Anyhow, I hobble into the waiting room for my shot, and there are two little boys (maybe 3 and 5?) playing in the chairs and blocking my way forward. They have some narrative about spaceships or whatever that they’re playing out.

Shockingly, I do not hit them with my crutch, or scream at them to get out of the way. I wait patiently, hoping that space travel will take them to some other part of the waiting room.

Their mom turns and sees me waiting on them and tells them to come over to near her. They do not like this idea, and declare loudly that they will not, that they HAVE to be on those chairs.

At this point, the mom says “No, you come over here right now, there’s a lady on crutches who needs to get by.” So now they have the “why.” They do not consider this a compelling argument, and protest even more loudly that they absolutely HAVE to be on those chairs, kicking and flailing, because their inner space travel narrative is Just. That. Important.

I should point out that I still have not struck the children with my crutches, or yelled at them.

At this point, mom makes it absolutely clear that if they do not get over to where I am immediately, they are in Big. Trouble. I do not know what this trouble entails: it may be no dessert, it may be no TV, it may be a spanking, it may be a flogging with a paddle. None of my business. Kids go over and begin to sass mom, at which point I am called back for my shot.

But, what if they still refused? After all, They HAVE to be on those chairs and Do That Thing. I mean, I was ready to say “excuse me” after a bit if their mom hadn’t noticed and stepped in, but what if they gave me sass? Crutch-beatings are still not an option, and I needed to get to my appointment.

What could Amanda do when the kid is threatening to ruin her dinner and maybe her outfit by knocking over the wine and spilling it everywhere?

The outsider’s patience and support is incredibly limited, and predicated on parental control over their child’s more beastly sides.

Comment #177: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  06:34 PM

Why can’t we just treat kids like people with the self-interest to not fuck their lives up?

Since lots of adults can’t figure out how not to fuck up their lives, I highly doubt that explaining to toddlers how not to fuck up their lives will do any good.

Not only do small children lack the ability to make reasoned decisions about their options, they don’t want to have to sort through multiple options in an attempt to make good decisions. Rather, they depend on parents to make good decisions for them and create a structure that allows them to do the right thing.

Comment #178: Tyro  on  02/23  at  06:42 PM

Not only do small children lack the ability to make reasoned decisions about their options, they don’t want to have to sort through multiple options in an attempt to make good decisions.

QFT—a lot of kids, when you give them multiple options, will simply melt down.

Comment #179: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  06:43 PM

History mom @176
That for immediate cessation of action is I think the only swat/slap hands thing most people here are advocating.
And the chart thing?  Worked great for me and the elder of my 2 younger brothers, okay for the youngest and very poorly for my sister who has HHAD and impulse control issues, even through the end of elementary school.  Delayed gratification of the big thing, even with stars or stickers or small daily rewards just did not work for her.

Comment #180: helen w. h.  on  02/23  at  06:45 PM

history_mom, I think that’s a good example, and I also think learning more about sensory integration issues helps people with apparently “intractable” kids a good deal of the time. The site of most of my extremely negative interactions as a child revolved around some basic sensory integration issues and cognitive skills I was delayed in (that I covered for by being articulate to the degree where people didn’t understand that I was completely incapable of even parsing what they were telling me). I had the privilege of caring for a child with very similar issues later in my life, and it was a wonderful experience because his parents had taken the option to take him to an OT and learn some basic techniques for dealing with his cognitive style. And these were simple things like teaching him that it was okay to walk away from overwhelming situations, and not making him make eye contact when someone was chastising or instructing him, and letting him sit on a pillow instead of making him sit still in class. Of course the ability to take someone to occupational therapy just for being kind of difficult is a mark of huge privilege, but I don’t feel like it has to be a privileged stance to accept that different people need different things because their brains work differently, especially when tiny nods towards individuality (not everyone can watch loud movies, but some people like to read quietly) can make the difference between an “out of control” kid and a “good” kid.

Comment #181: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  06:47 PM

For those adults who can’t fuck up their lives, are we in the right to beat them into doing what we want, then?  Not a bad idea, I suppose.  My sister fits that category and she enlisted in the military.  The emphasis on eliminating your personality in order to fit asinine rules suits her personality just perfectly.  I would kill myself, however.  It’s almost like different adults need different things in life or something crazy like that!  Wouldn’t it unbelievably wacky if the same held true for kids?  And that you talk to your kids to figure out what kind of person they are and react in kind?

Comment #182: stubbles  on  02/23  at  06:52 PM

Oh, I only remember being spanked once, and it didn’t scar me, but I did totally and completely deserve it. That said, I only say that now. At the time, I simply remember being irrationally angry at my father for it. I didn’t “learn a lesson,” I was just angry and resentful—but that is kind of the reason why “physical” disincentives are even being considered: because children are not rational enough to understand consequences, except in the grossest and most immediate of manners.

But look, even then, my parents weren’t trying to create a household of broken wills where we had finally surrendered and acquiesced to our parents. They just wanted to teach us how to behave and exercise self control.

Comment #183: Tyro  on  02/23  at  06:53 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, I think we agree, I just like to frame it as a case of including kids who are doing the work of learning to behave instead of excluding the ones who are little twits. And yes, I agree that society’s ability to censure other people’s children is limited to the degree that individuals aren’t capable of doing much. (Honestly, my mother would have physically dragged us out of your way about a third of the way through that anecdote - that constant boundary-testing is weird to me. I probably just don’t remember the times I did it as a child).

Comment #184: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  06:54 PM

Someone upthread asked why we’re on this tangent…

I think we got on this derail (tho it is fascinating) because what can you say about monster parents who beat their kid to death? That happens a lot when dealing with some so clearly evil/ tragic—there is not much to discuss. Nobody is going to defend them for what they did and none of us wants to think about it too long (that poor little girl).  So we all wander over to discuss something else.

But I think it’s still part of the topic, because all of us are trying to work out what we think good parental discipline is—we know it’s not what these parents did, but that’s so extreme that it leaves a lot unaddressed.

/likes derails

Comment #185: emjaybee  on  02/23  at  06:54 PM

Thanks for the note about procedure, Ismone.

Comment #186: Molly, NYC  on  02/23  at  06:55 PM

however, now that I think about it, I was capable of registering my mother’s embarrassment even if I ignored her wrath, so for me as a child the thing that worked for my brain was having a mother who paid attention to the people around her more than she paid attention to me. I was a hellion, mind.

Comment #187: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  06:56 PM

But I’ve come to realize how totally illogical spanking and swatting of the hands* is for teaching your child anything other an immediate cessation of an action.

Um, I thought that was what we were talking about since the discussion is swatting when the child is in immediate danger, like when emjaybee’s son would lay down in the middle of the street when they were trying to cross.

If having your child decide to lay down in the middle of the street when traffic is coming is not a situation that demands immediate cessation of that action, I don’t know what would qualify.

Comment #188: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  06:58 PM

Not getting into the Spanking Debate right now, I wanted to speak specifically to the Pearl’s role.

My thesis was on “courtship” in modern conservative (white, American) evangelical Christianity, and some of the first ringleaders of the movement were the Pearls. Naturally, I read tons and tons about them, and here’s the thing: they are explicitly, aggressively patriarchal. They do in fact regard the complete, unquestioning submission of women and children to the patriarch as an inherent, rather than instrumental, good. (Children are to submit to their mothers as well as fathers, but fathers must take the lead in discipline because lest a mother act unwomanly and become infected with the feeling of being an authority—also, her motherly instincts might take over and she might not have the courage to punish/beat her children with the necessary force. They say this.) As Amanda points out, nonsubmission is of the devil. Children must be broken and taught complete reliance on their patriarch’s whims—and I’d say this goes double for girl children, who will (as per the Pearl’s model) be handed over to whatever man God tells her father is right for her. She will then instantaneously transfer all of her trust, love, and utter submission from her father to her new husband. That sort of thing requires conditioning!

My religion major self could go on and on, but I’ll try to restrain myself.

Comment #189: LauraSG  on  02/23  at  07:01 PM

It’s almost like different adults need different things in life or something crazy like that!  Wouldn’t it unbelievably wacky if the same held true for kids?  And that you talk to your kids to figure out what kind of person they are and react in kind?

Children are not miniature adults who can be reasoned with. What if the mother in Mighty Ponygirl’s story spent her time asking the kids, “Don’t you want to let the nice lady go? Wouldn’t you be just as happy playing with the chairs over here by me? It would make the nice lady on the crutches happy if you moved, and don’t you want her to be happy?” That would have failed and just annoyed the he’ll out of Might Ponygirl while the kids blocked her way.

The general idea (even with corporal punishment) is that you want to train the child to make decisions that will not make the parents angry and instead will please the parents (eg, fearing doing anything that will cause your mother to declare, “just wait until your father gets home!). At the same time, some particularly manipulative children are going to attempt to try to train the parents into making decisions that won’t make the children angry by putting up a fuss when they have to do something they don’t want.

Comment #190: Tyro  on  02/23  at  07:06 PM

purpleshoes—I guess part of the problem is that if those kids had been adults, and were willfully blocking me access to my appointment, hospital security could have dealt with them. But because children are still in process, we have to expect the parents to do the work of the security guard, which occasionally means being an authoritarian. In either event, it is not my job to discipline. We would be appalled if the security guards had to be called on a couple of little boys playing space ship in a waiting room (incidentally, to all of you child-free people, if you ever feel your will starting to dissolve, a hospital/pediatricians waiting room is an EXCELLENT place to strengthen your resolve).

I wasn’t much of a boundary-tester beyond the minimum required for establishing the self. That’s just not the sort of kid I was, but I’m not of the mind that children who are boundary testers are the horrible broken products of horrible parenting. Some kids are, just like some kids can read quietly in the car and other kids need to play the license plate game. Children don’t come out of this blanket mold that dictates their behavior, they are individuals who respond differently to different situations. Those little boys really and truly believed that they were in the middle of something *very important* when their mom called them away. There is no rationalizing with a kid who believes he’s piloting a spaceship that they need to let the person on the crutches by. Crutches don’t exist in outer space.

There are a bunch of ways a kid could have responded: they could come over quietly, they could fuss and settle down, they could do what those kids did, they could absolutely obstinately refuse, and when mom comes to drag them away, they could run, or they could fight back. I really don’t know that a single form of discipline is going to work.

Comment #191: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/23  at  07:10 PM

I was punched in the face several times, I had a chair broken over my head, a was thrown into a table, and my sister experienced similar things, including an instance where she was threatened with a pipe (but cooler heads prevailed).

Just to clarify, this is not spanking. This is straight up severe abuse. That kind of dynamic is not at all what people are talking about when they talk about an occasional solitary swat. I got swatted on the butt a few times as a kid and it wasn’t fun but I look back on it with no strong feelings one way or another now. I never got a bruise or even red skin, as far as I can recall. A spanking to me was unpleasant and a sign that my behavior had *seriously* crossed a line but it never resulted in me being scared of my parents or hating them (the hating I saved for when they resorted to grounding my from reading science fiction as a teenager. Oh boy! Rage. :p)

That’s the problem, if you’ve experienced abuse and people called it a “spanking” then of course anything short of a ban on spanking will sound horrifying. But I really don’t think people are talking about that, here—it sounds like a lot of commenters genuinely didn’t get scarred or long-term upset by being spanked as kids, so they think of spanking as that kind-of-gauche-maybe-not-very-effective-but-ultimately-not-damaging consequence you got once or twice for biting your sister or repeatedly reaching for a stove burner.

And of course, none of this is on topic. The OP is about a child being murdered in a severe case of abuse, and everyone starts talking about how super mean parents are and pretending that toddlers are reasonable adults who will sit down and discuss their motivations with you.

You can talk about a “continuum of violence” all you want but it’s ridiculous to suggest that a parent who once or twice swats a kid, for lack of a better disciplinary option at the moment, is on the slippery slope to beating that child to death with a chunk of metal. Maybe they are both (arguably) “violent” but I believe one mindset is entirely different from the other and it is neither accurate nor helpful to equate the two. Parenting rants are boring, as are childhood anecdotes, and it seems tasteless to talk about the horrors of child leashes when a little girl was murdered. I would prefer to discuss the actual story, and how religion, gender and race likely all contributed to the death of a child.

Comment #192: Bagelsan  on  02/23  at  07:13 PM

I have never seen a discussion of child abuse that didn’t devolve into a discussion of whether it is appropriate to swat a very small child in limited situations, particularly those involving danger.  I won’t go back and parse where the thread derail started here (not sure if even one of my comments might have prompted it) but I think it goes back to the issue of line-drawing.

Despite my anti-swatting stance, I do NOT believe that the type of swatting Mighty Ponygirl describes is morally equivalent to beating your child with a plumbing line.  But how and where do we as a society draw a clearly understandable line between that and a severe beating that we would all agree is abusive? It is not so easy.  The messy standards we have now are providing cover to all sorts of appalling acts against children, and often nothing is done until a child is severely injured or dies, at which point authorities and jurors recognize the parent’s acts as abuse. 

I do prefer the solution taken by Sweden and a number of other countries, such as Italy and Israel, forbidding any infliction of physical pain on a child for the purpose of punishment or deterrence.  Others, I think, may believe that the intrusiveness of such a law is not justified by the fact that certain parents pose a danger to their children if allowed to spank. 

Of course, I should mention that I support anti-spanking laws not only because I believe it helps to provide greater protection for children from injury and death, but also for the same reason that I support laws prohibiting even minor assaults on adults, i.e. that no one should ever be assaulted.)

Comment #193: Laurie  on  02/23  at  07:17 PM

Caren: Because daycare providers and teachers only have the children for limited amounts of time in constrained situations.

Parents are there all the time.  Parents are the ones children rebel against the most.  It’s a completely different relationship, even if it all falls under the heading “child care”.

I’m not advocating spanking here, but don’t try to conflate how a child behaves for teachers and/or daycare providers with how they behave at home.  They are completely different situations, and children are capable of manifesting completely different reactions depending on the situation.

This. Absolutely.

I’m not a parent - I’ve looked after kids extensively, but always as a childminder (or as aunt, biological or adopted).

I could always - always - know that my care for the kids was something temporary, not permanent: and if I got truly frustrated or annoyed, I had the option of going “okay, bye, not doing this again”. Also, most of the kids I looked after were old enough to reason, and as Caren sensibly points out, even when we knew each other very well and had a long-term relationship, I wasn’t their parent - they just didn’t have the same kind of relationship to me or with me as they did to their mom or their dad.

That said, I’m definitely on the side of “no spanking” as a principle, just because if you allow it to be legal to hit kids, it becomes difficult in law to distinguish between the good parent who just gives a light smack as necessary occasional discipline, and the bad parent who whales away on the kid on a regular basis. There are plenty of other abusive things parents do to kids that the law would find it really impossible to stop: hitting kids shouldn’t be one of them.

I know of a kid who I think has probably never been spanked (certainly neither of his parents are in any way in the habit of hitting him). But between his mom and his dad both scarifying him with verbal abuse, combined with a medical problem that went undiagnosed through most of his childhood, he’s a complete mess - I mean, literally, he’s possibly mentally incapable of independent living, and yet he badly needs to get away from his parents and his sister. (His sister has all his life been the bright, pretty, “good” child, though with parents like theirs she has problems too.) Merely removing the legal right to spank won’t stop parents from screwing up their children’s lives and mental health. What children really need is the legal right to leave home as early as possible, and stay away for as long as they need to, still supported with the basics (food, shelter, healthcare, education).

Comment #194: Jesurgislac  on  02/23  at  07:19 PM

Ok…back on the actual topic, this abuse makes a lot of sense based on the principles that conservative christians have, that children are possessions of their parents and that retaining them in the value system and resisting individuality are the prime goals.

My partner’s grandfather did the whole run of abusive behavior against his children (physical, emotional, substance-abuse, definitely sexual against the mother and possibly against my partner’s mother as well). They were so traumatized by this that they passed the cycle of abuse in emotional form onto my partner.

The thing about these abuses is that it is great at getting compliance. Human beings are still animals and the cognitive brain is so easy to skip past with torture regimes and abuse. The survival instincts will kick in and they will react like a whipped dog, breeding compliance, muted following of arbitrary modes of life, and a complete fear of the outside world or doing anything in general. The only consequences is a partial or total loss of humanity, that which makes humans greater than animals.

I definitely feel that as a society, we’ve been trapped in a horrendous cycle where abusive raising environments have been the norm for a good long while now. Government sponsored child-rearing advice at the turn of the century recommended anally raping children with soap in order to induce toilet training was a good idea. Less than 50 years ago, the idea of not-spanking a child was an abhorrent idea. Even today, it is directly assumed that spanking is somehow necessary to avoid the effects of “permissive” parenting and the assumption that they will somehow be unable to behave themselves.

Luckily with research and more and more people crawling out of the abusive environments they were raised in to abuse their children a little less, we are seeing this slowly change. People are finding that doing the slow and careful work of explaining concepts to children, building empathy, etc… are far more effective strategies and etc…

Of course, the problem is that we’re also so often abused and we are raised in constant messaging about spanking’s necessity. And abused children learn some interesting lessons from abuse.

They learn self-hatred, assuming that any punishment or negative point in their lives is the result of something they personally did wrong (and this is why it’s so easy to sell the “poor deserve it” ideology). Of course, this self-hatred is also largely unformed and exists as generalized guilt because they were punished back without any really stated reasons or explanations other than “they were bad” so the cycle of self-punishment has no real form or function in fixing mistakes and just emotionally cripples the resultant man-child and can even end up dominating things that aren’t really bad as an adult (such as sexual desire). My partner has this effect constantly and it lowers her ability to be a good person when it strikes, because the pain is so primal and unfocused she is entirely in survival mode to make it go away as she would as a child which doesn’t help current situations and is often resultantly selfish and obviously childish. Because it’s an involuntary regression to the destroyed child she was. It can also lead to Stockholm Syndrome where the child accepts abusive relationships as the norm and proper because they don’t feel they deserve a functional relationship and have nothing to compare it to and were trained well in Stage IV up above.

They also learn selfish behavior. My partner is a wonderful giving person, but when she’s regressed or stressed out into desperately snatching at “natural behavior” learned from survival in her childhood, she is focused on making the emotional pain and memories go away. So she will begin responding to people who don’t exist, engage in lying or other behavior to make things “go away” so she won’t have to go through the cycle of internal abuse again and responding to people as if they were the monstrous figures who abused her as a child. She is also unable to focus on her actually natural instincts to help people or be a good person, because the stress is so overwhelming from the flashback that the survival mechanisms dominate. In short, even if the kid “turns out all right” they are a single flashback from being a selfish child simply by the well-trained survival instinct trained in them as a child by the abuse.

They also learn learned helplessness as Amanda pointed out up thread, fear of the new, fear of themselves and being true to themselves, because individuality was a “bad thing” to the goal of control, and a whole host of other behaviors.

Comment #195: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  07:20 PM

On the topic everyone seems to be interested in debating instead:

Is spanking different from physical abuse or a part and parcel of it and does using it make you a bad person?

Well, first part, kinda, second part, not really, it’s human.

We’re raised in a punishment-minded, abuse-ridden society and furthermore, parents are human beings, human beings who get no credit, get a lot of social blame to “keep their children in line” for the benefit of other adults. So there is tremendous social pressure on parents to “do something” for the purpose of removing the children from the eyes and ears of adult society. And well abuse and abusive methodologies is a great way to gain immediate compliance and a broken mental state that will stop willfulness, public outbursts, and other behavior seen as “socially negative”. And parents who don’t resort to these methods are culturally seen as “bad at their job”. See how a woman with a crying child who tries to reason, bargain, or ignore their child to get through the errand and back to a home environment will often be accosted by other adults and ordered to “punish” their child or spank them in order to control them.

So there is strong cultural pressure for abusive behavior. There is also high stress. Being a parent is one of the most high-stress activities an adult can engage in. There is a proto-human who basically needs to be taught from scratch how to function in society and become a fully grown adult. One who will often be high-energy, high-maintainence, and provide few if any signs of encouragement and can easily end up dominating one’s life and sleep schedule and utterly ruin alone time and any schedule for destressing oneself. Now, mix in cultural messaging and the pendulum always looming of “doing it wrong” and “fucking up the child for life” and that’s a recipe for being on the very edge of sanity long before you’re also seeing every single errand you attempt become twice as hard and a giant struggle of wills.

So now there’s immense cultural pressure for abusive techniques, a giant psychological desire and need for “shortcuts” and a need to “stop it” rather than train it away and voila, it becomes easy to justify spanking and the full on abusive raising styles so many have grown up with. Spanking and even “no” aren’t really good long term strategies. They teach authoritarianism, might makes right, and can trigger the types of behavior exhibited in the abused or even base hatred for the punishing figure. But they can be a short-term break because they are a short break of the child’s psyche and a negative reinforcement.

It is, simply, a shortcut for temporary piece of mind and can be a way to release aggression towards an annoying figure it would be immoral to throttle (the child) that has been bottled up through the high stress of parenting. It’s psychologically rewarding to the parent and thus they want to believe because of the guilt of “bad parenthood” that this release valve is somehow beneficial, even necessary, certainly at least forgivable.

Why?

Because so many parents were abused as children and the guilt mechanisms of emotional and religious abuse will cease them if they can’t eel out of the “blame” for “doing something wrong” which in this case and in all cases is the showing of humanity. So something that is a slip, a shortcut, a non-beneficial, slightly harmful release mechanism for the parent needs to be reformatted as the ultimate last resort, something somehow beneficial.

I don’t believe this self-delusion is healthy. Spanking is not a positive action, nor is the emotional or physical abuse most of us are extricating ourselves from, but it is a human response and we should forgive our “slip-ups” on that regard and try and control our guilt spirals and regressions on the topic. Because to slip-up and punish an annoying human because a release valve is needed, because you’re frustrated and tired and regressing to a might-makes-right animal consciousness is something we’ve all done.

It doesn’t make us bad people, it makes us people. But trying to justify it as anything more…that’s what makes us bad people.

Ok, post done. Sorry for the length.

Comment #196: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  07:20 PM

Tyro, that’s way insightful!  Because their mother knows her kids better than you do, she chose not to appeal to their sense of empathy because she already knows in would be ineffective to appeal to their sense of empathy when they’re in outer space.  One day, I hope I can be as brilliant as you!

You frankly sound like the type of parent who would kill their kid for disobeying you.  I don’t want kids, but if I did, I’d want them to behave/make me happy because they *like* me, not because they’re afraid of the consequences or because they’re afraid of capricious violence.  But I also tend to view kids as people whose respect needs to be earned just like any other person’s.

Comment #197: stubbles  on  02/23  at  07:24 PM

When you define entire classes of people, whether children or women, as existing to submit and suggest that willfulness is an evil brought upon your family by the devil, then abuse is inevitable.  The idea itself is abusive and dehumanizing.  Everything else that follows from it is simply logical.

I am continually struck by the parallels between the Christian Fundamentalist concept of a literal “spirit of rebellion” and the pseudoscience behind drapetomania.  It seems when one group of people sees fit to enslave another, they find themselves confronted with a peculiar psycho-social dilemma.  The desire of their slaves to be free is a problem for them and they need to come up with a way to discuss the problem without acknowledging their slaves’ individuality, agency, and inherent right to freedom.  Generally this seems to require the externalization of such natural drives under the guise of some pathology, be it medical or spiritual.

Comment #198: DaveL  on  02/23  at  07:24 PM

The reason stories about child abuse to devolve into arguments about spanking is because the “good” type of people who hit kids realize they are on the same side of the line as the “bad” type of people who hit kids and they have to rationalize how hitting someone hard enough to leave a bruise is bad but hitting someone hard enough to make them feel embarrassed and ashamed but not leaving a mark and calling it a “swat” is okay.  That’s a lot of cognitive dissonance for them to sort through.

Comment #199: stubbles  on  02/23  at  07:29 PM

@193 Laurie

It’s beating up the self, an easy emotion to fall prey to.

Beating on a child or hitting a child is an emotional release, a “quick fix”, and the main benefits are “selfish” aka, they really only exist for the parent (getting out aggression on an avatar of annoyance, quickly fixing social condemnation for having an “out of control child”, and a quick end to annoying behavior like tantrums).

But well, that’s “wrong” and indeed we see it as worse than it is, like how could we have fallen so low (instead of recognizing it as a natural human tendency that doesn’t actually make us worse people). Given that many of us were raised in an abusive society or parenting structure, we can easily fall back in regressive traits to avoid the “shame” of this “horrible act” by morally justifying it and trying to mold it into a positive thus to brunt our self-destruction at having committed the act.

The healthy response is to recognize it as a non-positive action that’s simply human to fall towards and using it doesn’t actually make someone a bad person, though they should certainly avoid it in general, because it is both cruel and it doesn’t work (like torture).

Indeed, the torture debate shows similar effects. It’s too emotionally hard to accept “us” as having done it, so torture must somehow be necessary or a moral positive in order to avoid having to take responsibility for it. Same with white and male responses to black and female oppression (I’m not at fault and anyways, that was long in the past and everything’s equal now so stop stealing my resources you thieves, you deserve whatever happens to you).

And given this is a hardcore response often from abuse itself, It’s not going to be easy moving into this world view, but it is necessary to. Because the shit we’re doing when we’re blaming ourselves is turning minor “short-cuts” into a justification for the kind of abuse we see here and at a lesser level all through our society.

Comment #200: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  07:31 PM

You frankly sound like the type of parent who would kill their kid for disobeying you.

Stubbles, maybe you should take an hour to go do something less stressful? ‘Cause calling people child-abusing potential murderers because their opinion differs from yours re. a mild spanking seems… not super rational. A breather might do you some good.

Comment #201: Bagelsan  on  02/23  at  07:31 PM

I just don’t buy this stuff about hitting kids to keep them safe.  Millions of parents manage to keep their kids away from hot stoves and fast cars without spanking them.  Teachers and daycare providers keep multiple kids safe at a time without ever swatting them.  Swatting isn’t abuse, but it’s not necessary.  If your kid can’t understand to stay away from a hot stove unless you hit them, then they shouldn’t be anywhere near the stove.
Comment #135: catgirl on 02/23 at 03:20 PM

And when/if you have children of your own, you are perfectly free to implement that parenting theory.  However, do remember this, there are quite a few parents out here, who found their own idealistic pre-parenting philosophies become fairly malleable when confronted with the concrete 24/7 childcare and upbringing responsibility know as a baby.  One then seeks creative ways to serve crow- to oneself. I have many a recipe to share should you ever need them.

Comment #202: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  07:31 PM

Mnemosyne: But as a parent, if your only concern is immediate cessation of the activity you have accomplished almost nothing long term, which means that you have not decreased the likelihood of encountering the situation again.  Indeed, that is what the studies on physical discipline show—that while it may stop the behavior now it does nothing for teaching the kid NOT TO DO IT AGAIN.  This is why it is important for parents to understand what they are disciplining for (in a long-term sense), what is acceptable as a form of discipline, and then be consistent so that when the extreme circumstances happen they react from that position instead of hauling off and hitting/swatting a kid because of an adrenaline surge.  The fact that some kids are shocked enough to not do it again doesn’t prove that the hitting was effective, but that the shock of the incident provided a memorable deterrent.  But you know what, me grabbing my kid suddenly and being absolutely frightened and telegraphing it with raised voice and holding him firmly when he almost stepped into traffic (which all parents will experience) is also shocking enough to be memorable. Indeed, my son will take my hand in the parking lot and tell me “Mom, I need to hold your hand to keep you from running into traffic.”

As a parent, I cannot watch my son 100% of the time and I am not on top of him all the time, nor would I advocate that (in fact, he gets up almost two hours earlier than I do, so I get him breakfast and let him play/watch TV in the next room which makes me a negligent parent in some people’s estimation).  But somehow I manage to deal with potentially harmful situations without resorting to hitting my child.  Again, if I am expecting him not to hit others except in self-defense, how does it magically become okay for me to hit him as a “teaching experience”?  No, the problem is that MY expectations for him are probably too high and he is showing me that, while he may be very mature in some areas (for instance, he is very articulate and is able to process a lot of information that most kids his age cannot comprehend) he is not necessarily as developed in other areas (like impulse control), so I need to adjust things accordingly.  If I am going to respect his personhood, I have to set REASONABLE limits on his behavior and enforce those based on his individual level of maturity.

I agree with others that there is a continuum of violence from swatting/spanking to abuse, but if we can rationalize and justify one end of that spectrum by saying it’s okay to hit kids in certain circumstances (but apparently not adults, which makes no sense to me) then it becomes much harder to define at what point violence against children becomes unacceptable.  As this thread has shown, some people bear long-term emotional scars from relatively mild physical punishment and you can never know whether your kid will be the resilient one who can shrug it off as an adult or whether it will prove problematic in their future personal relationships. 

For me, Amanda’s post linking physical discipline with domestic violence actually articulated something that has been swirling in my head but never been able to connect before.  To me, even a swat on the hand starts to condition your child to accepting some level of violence from someone they love/trust and that is not acceptable to me.

Which is not to say that one cannot find ways to abuse through non-physical discipline.

Comment #203: history_mom  on  02/23  at  07:35 PM

@199 stubbles

Pretty much this.

It’s a human response to make it go away. A response that often comes “naturally” as a result of the ritualistic abuse so many of us were raised under (especially by religion). We can’t be “bad people” so this slightly negative action must have been positive or justified so that we won’t ever have anything in common with bad people.

This way of thinking though is more problematic and its origins are not wholly their own though they may have trouble distinguishing that through the triggers.

They have my deepest sympathies and hugs. It’s not easy battling one’s inner demons.

Comment #204: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  07:37 PM

You’re right, Bagelsan.  I’ll go talk a walk until I remember that people smaller than me need to be trained to appease adults in their lives who have life/death control over them.  My deep apologies.

Comment #205: stubbles  on  02/23  at  07:39 PM

Wow—the comment by Cerberus at 195 is long but worth reading in whole (196 is good too)!  Your description of the way abuse survivors can revert to a primal survival mode is right on target and similar to my own experience.

(I should note that my abuse history, if it can even be called that, boiled down to five spankings, none of which came anywhere close to injuring me, for things like rolling my eyes, whining about homework, and forgetting my promise to empty wastebaskets in the house. It also involved numerous threats of spanking for similar behaviors.  My parents and the community thought my parents’ behavior perfectly appropriate.  Yes, I am to this day ruled by fear and do often expect others to overreact in a frightening away to minor transgressions I commit, like being late or falling behind at work.)

Comment #206: Laurie  on  02/23  at  07:40 PM

To Ismone @ #138 Yes, Gunnoe did look at that, and yes, this is a summary of the research, but it certainly early sexual behavior would make one more vulnerable to sexual abuse? I’m sure Amanda or someone else here has stats, but, frm the article : 
“That was cross-referenced against the data on bad outcomes we might fear spanking could lead to years later: antisocial behavior, early sexual activity, physical violence, and depression.”

Comment #207: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  07:40 PM

@ #205: No, just go take a walk until you remember that it’s a blog, and the only person being hurt by this conversation is (it seems) you. Seriously, I’m saying this as a stranger over the internet, take care of your emotional health first, yeah?

Comment #208: Bagelsan  on  02/23  at  07:43 PM

As a point of positiveness about the debate, things are getting better. Less kids are getting abused, physical abuse and “punishment” based parenting styles are falling out of favor, religious indoctrination, especially the really emotional abusive religions are also falling out of favor and substance-abuse in parents and neglect are also trending down. The relatively rapid acceptance of new parenting guides have reduced a large amount of abusive parenting traditions and people may be trying to make the bad aspects of spanking go away because “it was necessary” and they are way overblowing their loss-of-control and “need for a quick fix”, but that just shows that the cultural messaging against giving into that fix or in the systemic need for “obedient” children are falling out of favor.

Each generation is slightly less fucked up than the generation before and thus can clear a few more of the cobwebs and be a little more true to themselves and a little more able to handle life and stress and decision-making.

This is healing and progress and we should remark upon that and note that. Even those of us who supposedly “fall” into these patterns, we’re all doing better than our parents before and their parents before them and that’s the thing most worth noticing and remarking upon.

Comment #209: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  07:45 PM

Laurie @ #144.  You bring up a good point - and why don’t we hit the adults you mention - because there is 0 chance of their learning.  They are either in stasis mentally or declining/regressing.  It is the learning ability (even the pre-verbal associative one) that makes swatting OK.  And with younger children, the immediacy of the punishment is important, too.

Comment #210: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  07:47 PM

Cerebrus at 200—Exactly!

Phylosopher,  I am contemplating pregnancy in the immediate future (basically any time now if things go well) and I do not expect to eat crow.  I think we all understand that parenting is really hard and kids can get out of control. But I know what it was like to be a kid, and I know plenty of parents who have been in stressful circumstances without resorting to spanking or swatting.  If it is off the table, you find other solutions.  I don’t expect it to be easy or graceful or convenient for you or perhaps for the people around you, but hitting is simply not an option for me, except if necessary in self-defense (can’t imagine what scenario that might be, maybe a kid aiming a pencil towards my eye).

Comment #211: Laurie  on  02/23  at  07:48 PM

That sentence in 211 should have read   “I don’t expect it to be easy or graceful or convenient for ME or perhaps for the people around ME, but hitting is simply not an option for me, except if necessary in self-defense (can’t imagine what scenario that might be, maybe a kid aiming a pencil towards my eye).”

Comment #212: Laurie  on  02/23  at  07:51 PM

Laurie @206 -

Aw, shucks, thanks. And I should hope it’s on target as its the result of four and half years essentially learning from scratch how to help my partner recover from the many automatic responses and triggers she developed from systemic abuse as a child.

Hugs of sympathy for your own abuse. It’s never easy recovering, in that respect, I am immensely privileged being one of the few who actually had the mythical “happy family” non-abusive, permissive raising environments as a child. Those who weren’t will always have my intense sympathies, at least for that.

Comment #213: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  07:52 PM

But as a parent, if your only concern is immediate cessation of the activity you have accomplished almost nothing long term, which means that you have not decreased the likelihood of encountering the situation again.

When your child is laying in the middle of the street and refuses to get up even though there’s a car coming, I have a feeling that your only concern is going to be to have him get the hell up and get out of the path of the moving car.  You are not going to be thinking about how to stop the behavior long-term while the car is barreling down on you.  You will be thinking, “HOLY FUCK THERE’S A CAR COMING GET UP!” 

And I can see that, in that moment, a swat is going to do a whole heck of a lot more good than trying to figure out the best long-term plan for preventing your child from doing that again in the future.  You can think about that when you’re safely back on the curb.

Comment #214: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  07:52 PM

But then she told this horrifying story about how the kid was about to go play in a game or some kind of competition or something and he wasn’t feeling very confident, and then she THREATENED TO SPANK HIM to get rid of his lack of confidence.  Of course he said he was feeling much more confident then.

I had the same thing with my father.  If I said something that was construed by him as negative, even if I didn’t see it in anything like the kind of negative light he did, he would threaten to punish me.  Once it was simply that I didn’t have any friends at that time that I wished to send Christmas cards to.  I was quite happy not sending Christmas cards actually, as I was just a 12 year old kid.  I had the environment to explore, so I wasn’t particularly lonely either, during that stretch of time, but it made my father furious.

Another time (much older now) I told him that his angry way of speaking to me was making me numb from the inside out.  That was when he stopped the car on the freeway and told me to “get out”.

A corollary: When I reported (even very, very recently) to people I am acquainted with about this behaviour, they start to look for character flaws—in me!  A patriarch is a patriarch is a patriarch—and apparently if you are male you are always right, and there is some hidden justification for your behaviour, even if that’s not self evident;.

In fact to tell these kinds of stories suffices to bring all the misogynists out of the woodwork, and even those without otherwise congenial personality structures can show their ugly side.

Comment #215: scratchy888  on  02/23  at  07:52 PM

Phylosopher, 

Hmmm . . . this is outside the area of my expertise, but I am not convinced that there are no adults with cognitive disabilities or demented elderly people who couldn’t “benefit” from the association between a swat and a dangerous activity to the same degree as a crawling baby.  I am also not convinced that babies and toddlers really do make the association we want them to make when we swat them.

Again, I just don’t see the need and I do see the long-term risk of swatting.  I wonder if Sweden, where hitting children is illegal, has a higher incidence of toddlers being burnt on stoves or being run over in the street?

Comment #216: Laurie  on  02/23  at  07:55 PM

But (damn me), I can’t stay away from the aside. A generation or two ago the dominant method to train dogs was by punishment, now it’s reward and punishment is almost universally looked down on. Almost all the reasons given for spanking children apply to puppies (they don’t listen, they’re impulsive, they don’t have empathy, ...) and yet corporal punishment doesn’t seem to be needed there, so why with children? I don’t think the spanking that people here are advocating counts as abuse, but I don’t think it’s ever needed for young children.
Comment #161: JohnL on 02/23 at 03:57 PM

OK, second time I’ve seen this false equivalence, and before it gets too far, while hitting and beating a dog, or horse, especially about the face, is counter productive, keeping a dog or a horse on lead is required for training (some very unusual, exceptional cases notwithstanding).  That sharp jerk release, be it on a collar, halti, training bit, etc is the same as the swat for the child.  Leads and leashes for active walking or training are not considered abuse by any but the most extreme and thus accepted without question by society (even when the idiots use a prong collar for restraint and not correction.)

Comment #217: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  08:00 PM

Again, I just don’t see the need and I do see the long-term risk of swatting.  I wonder if Sweden, where hitting children is illegal, has a higher incidence of toddlers being burnt on stoves or being run over in the street?

By all accounts, though, Sweden has not completely eliminated kids being swatted.  They’ve drawn the line, but many Swedish parents say that they have done the kind of in extremis swat that emjaybee talked about when her son decided to lie down in the path of a moving car.

Spanking bans eliminate abusive parents’ excuses for physical abuse, but they don’t completely eliminate any physical contact with your child.

Comment #218: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  08:00 PM

Mnemosyne,

I know that no one has addressed that car example in this thread.  It seems like that kind of immediate danger that can ONLY be solved by getting the child to comply is really unusual.  In most instances, you can remove the child from the danger.  Even in cases when the child is sitting down in the middle of the street, he or she can be lifted. 

If there really is no alternative, with the car barreling down, there may be a moral justification of self-defense or defense another in hitting the child to gain compliance.  It is a one in a million shot where imminent bodily harm is about to occur and there literally no alternatives but to hit the child to gain compliance.

Comment #219: Laurie  on  02/23  at  08:02 PM

OK, second time I’ve seen this false equivalence, and before it gets too far, while hitting and beating a dog, or horse, especially about the face, is counter productive, keeping a dog or a horse on lead is required for training (some very unusual, exceptional cases notwithstanding).

Good point.  When Victoria Stillwell starts advocating that people exercise their dogs without having them on a leash in public, then the comparison will make sense.  We see no problem with physically restraining animals from doing things we don’t want them to do.

Comment #220: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  08:03 PM

@214

That’s just it. It’s survivalist instinct, any port in a storm actions. That’s a natural response as is the attempt to add post-hoc justification, somehow make it morally superior to have done so.

But it doesn’t need to be and doing so is actually the worse action. It wasn’t a positive action, it shouldn’t be praised as a positive action or as somehow moral and just or even the best possible solution.

It was natural, it was negative, but we should simply forgive ourselves the instinct and give yourself the mental health to go back to the more positive and indeed successful strategies rather than making up post-hoc rationalizations to avoid the guilt of striking a child. It happens, you’re both alive. Hug the avatar of annoyance, make your apologies, and get on with your life.

Kids are annoying, sometimes people will devolve into the negative natural responses born out of old abuses and stresses or the animal instincts of survival and cultural messaging about “what you should have done”.

Temporarily “falling down” is no more deserving of self-abuse, self-rationalization, or angry defenses than having a traditional marriage ceremony is, or changing your name is, or giving yourself permission for an orgasm is.

The real villain is the over-inflated abuse-triggered guilt spirals that cause one to plaster it over and never think about it rather than just accepting it for the short-term fuck-up that comes with being human.

And something like that is, perhaps it was necessary, perhaps with a time-stop device you could have thought of a “better” way, but what happened happened and at least everyone is alive. It doesn’t need more than that.

Comment #221: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  08:05 PM

Mnemosyne, as always, I go back to “would I hit someone 20 years older in this situation?”  If a 25 year old was refusing to leave the street and I tried pulling them and picking them up, I’d probably hit them to get them to move.

Comment #222: stubbles  on  02/23  at  08:05 PM

phylosopher,

Not all children code sexual abuse as ‘early sexual activity’, and while some victims of sexual abuse act out by engaging in early sexual activity, some also respond to the abuse by rejecting sexual activity.

Comment #223: Ismone  on  02/23  at  08:06 PM

A similar discussion on slacktivist a while ago got people discussion types of abuse and how emotional abuse is often worse than the physical abuse that frequently accompanies it.  But it’s not like you can separate them in most cases, and with these “child training” manuals the physical abuse is just one thread in the whole fabric of total control of the child’s body, mind, and spirit.  Uggggghh!

Comment #224: lonespark  on  02/23  at  08:07 PM

I think it is a false equivalence to suggest that physically restraining an animal is the same as a swat.  No one here has suggested that it would be wrong to physically restrain a child. Hell, if I’d been in charge of the two kids blocking Mighty Ponygirl’s way, I would have physically dragged them.  But there is a difference between that and deliberately inflicting physical pain for purposes of punishment or deterrence.

Comment #225: Laurie  on  02/23  at  08:08 PM

I know that no one has addressed that car example in this thread.  It seems like that kind of immediate danger that can ONLY be solved by getting the child to comply is really unusual.

As someone who managed to ride her bike in front of a moving car at the age of six, I don’t think it’s nearly as unusual as you seem to think.  However, since I had already reached the age of reason, I had my bike taken away for a week rather than getting a swat like a pre-verbal child who ran into traffic might, because I was old enough to understand that punishment.

Don’t get me wrong—I’m not advocating that people should always hit their child.  I’m saying that there are extreme circumstances in which it can and probably will happen.  It may well happen to you after you have your child.  But I don’t think that comparing getting your child out of the path of a moving car by swatting them on the butt to beating a child to death with plumbing supply line is very productive.

Comment #226: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  08:09 PM

I fully support a ban on hitting your kid with an object, but a complete blanket spanking ban gets into the Zero Tolerance bullshit that’s poisoned so many other areas of the law.  In an ideal world spanking would be rare or non-existent.  In the real world, a ban on spanking just invites the government into one of the most intimate relationships there is, and the government will from time to time be in the hands of the likes of Dick Cheney.

Nope.  We have that same ban here, but there’s a provision for “police discretion” in prosecuting.  Despite whining from people who see the worst, no-one has been prosecuted for mere swatting.

It’s perceived as unpopular, mainly due to some serious activism by mainly Christian groups upset with government interference in their ability to whack their kiddies.  they managed to force a referedum using a completely crappily phrased question which they cite as support for their poisiton, and they’re not going away, so I suspect it will be overturned some time.

My mum hit me as a means of discipline.  Yeah, that was great - so when I was 12, I hit an 8 year old because they were doing something wrong.  Her mother’s reaction to that suggested to me that the whole idea was wrong, and I don’t see self-righteous “discipline the child” Christian types as much more self-knowledgable than my 12 year old self.  Less so, in many cases.

Scratch someone who advocates hitting kids as a good policy, and you find someone who sees them as pets to be controlled and trained.  Screw that.

Comment #227: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/23  at  08:17 PM

Hell, if I’d been in charge of the two kids blocking Mighty Ponygirl’s way, I would have physically dragged them.  But there is a difference between that and deliberately inflicting physical pain for purposes of punishment or deterrence.

How is that different than a swat? You are putting your hands on a child when they don’t want you to in order to enforce a temporary behavior. Dragging is not teaching. It will probably have your kids in tears just like a spanking would.

The only moment I really remember being scared of my mom as a child was not when she spanked me once or twice, but it was when she once grabbed my arm and dragged me a across a room. I stayed on my feet, and I wasn’t injured, but it hurt, and it genuinely scared me. So, yet again, kids are individuals and YMMV. (Which is to say: anecdote attack! Rar!)

Comment #228: Bagelsan  on  02/23  at  08:23 PM

Mnemosyne, in an instance where my child was laying down in the street and I was unable to lift him (at this stage, not likely even at 40 lbs) then yeah I might find myself doing whatever possible to get him out of the street, but I wouldn’t be sitting here justifying it as a reasonable response and then generalize from it to say that spanking/swatting kids is just dandy as a disciplinary tool and how people just don’t understand unless they have x type of kid.  I would characterize it as an extreme response in an extraordinary situation, which is what it is.  Just like violence in self-defense is an extreme response in an extraordinary circumstance, but I’m not justifying hitting other people for not behaving themselves. 

The scenario is a red herring intended to distract from the reality that spanking, when employed by most parents, is not used in life-threatening situations and the actual act of spanking or the threat is routine part of their disciplinary arsenal for a certain period of years (roughly ages 3-8). 

And phylosopher, stop pronouncing upon this issue as if you are the only parent on this thread.  I admit there are many things that I have done as a parent that I swore I never would before I had a child (like the TV in the morning), but my own son is not particularly easy and I have a niece whose history of thoughtless sprints into traffic or nearly off cliffs, etc. would give anyone a run for her money and yet her mom has never resorted to spanking and miraculously the child has made it 7 years thus far.  If you are committed to not spanking and figuring out what methods work for your child you can find alternatives.  But most of us were raised with spanking and it’s easier to resort to that than to do the frustrating and tedious work of finding what works long-term and be willing to do it all over again with each child.  My son responds to behavior charts. Another child of mine may not, in which case I will have to find another form of positive reinforcement.

Comment #229: history_mom  on  02/23  at  08:24 PM

but there’s a provision for “police discretion” in prosecuting

In America, we have “police discretion” too, and also “military intelligence.” They function similarly effectively. :p

Comment #230: Bagelsan  on  02/23  at  08:26 PM

BTW, the New Zealand law is covered ,A HREF=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_(Substituted_Section_59)_Amendment_Act_2007”>here</A>.

Note this bit:

Section 59 now reads:

  Parental control
  1. Every parent of a child and every person in the place of a parent of the child is justified in using force if the force used is reasonable in the circumstances and is for the purpose of—

      a. preventing or minimising harm to the child or another person; or
      b. preventing the child from engaging or continuing to engage in conduct that amounts to a criminal offence; or
      c. preventing the child from engaging or continuing to engage in offensive or disruptive behaviour; or
      d. performing the normal daily tasks that are incidental to good care and parenting.

  2. Nothing in subsection (1) or in any rule of common law justifies the use of force for the purpose of correction.
  3. Subsection (2) prevails over subsection (1).
  4. To avoid doubt, it is affirmed that the Police have the discretion not to prosecute complaints against a parent of a child or person in the place of a parent of a child in relation to an offence involving the use of force against a child, where the offence is considered to be so inconsequential that there is no public interest in proceeding with a prosecution.

Adults assaulting children no longer have the legal defence of “reasonable force” but “force ... may ... be for the purposes of restraint ... or, by way of example, to ensure compliance”, according to the police practice guide.[2]

That covers the “lying in front of a car” scenario nicely.

Comment #231: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/23  at  08:28 PM

The problem isn’t the parent who occasionally swats the backside of a toddler to keep it out of the road or away from the stove, the problem is systematic child abuse under the guise of child rearing.  When a person thinks swatting is the only way to correct a child’s behavior, then the correction becomes abusive.  Using a plumbing supply line to punish a child is abuse, it doesn’t matter what reason is given for doing it.  People who believe that a child is put on earth to do the will of it’s parents rather than being it’s own person tend to be abusive in their discipline.  The attitude of the people who use the Pearl’s methods to raise the children is what caused the little girl’s death.  The child is not a person to them, it is an object to be trained and shaped, like a dog or a pot. 

There is no way to excuse any form of child abuse.  A part of the child dies during every incident of abuse.  There is no way to get that part of a person back.  What Shaw was talking about was cold blooded, systematic punishment, and that is much worse, and lasts much longer than a blow in anger, and should not ever be forgiven.

Comment #232: G Porgey  on  02/23  at  08:41 PM

What, they signed up to discipline their child according to your methods, or else not go out in public at all?

Having children doesn’t give you license to ruin everyone else’s night.  I realize some people believe that it does, but it’s fucking rude.

Comment #233: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  08:44 PM

Do you also complain about those annoying people who disturb your airplane trips by bringing their babies along?

No.  But I do complain about parents who forsake their duty to control their children to the best of their abilities.  It’s rude to believe you and your children are the only people who count.  I try to be nice to others and maintain my boundaries.  It would be easier for me to walk through a crowded restaurant pushing people over and knocking their shit aside, but I don’t do that.  Why is acceptable for a child to do that, because the parents don’t want to deal with it?

Comment #234: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  08:47 PM

<blockquote>
Good point.  When Victoria Stillwell starts advocating that people exercise their dogs without having them on a leash in public, then the comparison will make sense.  We see no problem with physically restraining animals from doing things we don’t want them to do.
Comment #220: Mnemosyne on 02/23 at 06:03 PM<?blockquote>

It’s a more nuanced point, Mnemo.  One can choose to restrain which is generally counterproductive - the dog pulls, so instead of a sharp jerk (slightly painful and startling to the dog) some owners out of fear of hurting the dog will decide to use restraint - holding the leash tighter, constant pull.  THe dog learns to set their neck (stiffen it) and continue to pull.  Then the owner gets a choke collar - which is supposed to be used , again, with a sharp jerk, the release is the reward.  But this owner refuses to use it correctly and the same tug of war ensues - by now the dogs neck muscles are more developed and it bulls on coughing and choking from the constant pressure of the taut leash.  The next step is the prong collar-  same progression.  Usually, this type of owner gives up walking the dog in public and it gets relegated to the fenced yard.  Sad for both.

Yes, there’s an analogy there to swatting, not swatting and restraining instead.  In my analysis, it’s that fearing to swat, if when and with children that swatting works and other methods don’t cna lead to bad outcomes. 

How does this figure into the Pearls - I think they’re despicable and there should be a way to sue their asses off, but unless there’s a child advocate willing to do so, I’m not sure how.  Next, I’d like to see their books banned, but book banning by law?  No.  Pressure on the publisher or being sued as part of that suit - yes. 

Banning spanking or swatting?  Trusting parents to know what works for their child and circumstance and within reason seems the best solution - even knowing something like this can happen.  - again, like abortion, if you allow the state in to say you can’t hit, then doesn’t that open up the possibility that the state can also say “hit?”

Comment #235: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  08:52 PM

phylosopher,

Not all children code sexual abuse as ‘early sexual activity’, and while some victims of sexual abuse act out by engaging in early sexual activity, some also respond to the abuse by rejecting sexual activity.
Comment #223: Ismone on 02/23 at 06:06 PM

I was thinking of it as early activity is more likely to have a power imbalance because the partner is likely to be older, because one is probably trying to hide the activity ad that makes on more vulnerable to abuse, etc.

Comment #236: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  08:56 PM

I had a brother who:

before age 2 could not only get out of his crib at will, but would tightrope around the edges;

at age 3 could climb to the top of 10 foot bookcases, could climb trees to the height of 15 feet and would hold on with one hand while waving, could open any ‘childproof’ gates, had let the car roll down into a street, had cut every single curtain in the house, ...

so pretty much all the scenarios described here would have involved him. Any yet, my parents never hit him. In other words, they didn’t ‘need’ to.

By the way, the street scenario sounds a bit like that ‘ticking time bomb’ thing. In what world would it be quicker to hit the child and then ... what let him get up and run? ... than just picking him up (we are talking about toddlers here)?

Comment #237: JohnL  on  02/23  at  08:59 PM

Amanda @233

Does a great job of illustrating there the cultural pressures. The pressure prioritizes shutting up the kid in any public space over any actual beneficial raising program or long-term methodology. Parents are “rude” if they don’t beat their children (yes, it’s not what Amanda recommends, but it’s what most people recommend to parents of kids throwing public tantrums) and otherwise quickly secure the silence.

Given that many people were raised abused, this also feeds into a worldview we easily fall into where external appearance matters more than reality. If adults see “well-behaved” aka silent, they won’t ask questions on how and will praise one’s parenting even if they are psychologically destroyed and unhappy. If adults see “rambunctious” kids they won’t contextualize to see if its natural energy and the result of vibrant youth of a healthy child, they just want it shut up and kept away from them.

And this is often a great lead-in and justification for abuse because you get shallow praise by society by following an abusive regime designed to break children and get random punishment if you try to deal with an avatar of annoyance and teach it the slow process of growing into a healthy non-annoying adult.

Basically it’s the short-term thinking of modern capitalism in the marketplace of children. Take care of it now because we don’t really care if we deal with more healthy and adjusted adults 20 years from now if it means more ruined dinners, movies, and airplane rides now.


On another note, I think there’s unhealthy tension between adults seeking at any moment succor from children and those having at the moment to deal directly with children. There’s a lot of cultural pressure to remove public evidence of children. They are to be kept at home, out of sight, prevented from interacting, breast-feeding, running around adults trying to navigate life and avoid children.

And adults trying at the moment in question to avoid children feel put upon and second-class to parents. They (rightfully) resent that their choices of entertainment, general freedoms, sexual expression, and right to have conversations of their choice are constantly infringed under the excuse of “children might somehow stumble upon it and must be protected”. There’s a feeling like one’s social world is already hampered by appeals to children so having to pay even more by suffering the avatar of annoyance that are children willfully is just the cherry on the ice cream sundae of pain. How dare parents force “adult” entertainment in ever shrinking margins and then insert in those margins the screaming kid?

All of which results from bullshit ideas of kids. Punishment and silence aren’t really good for kids in general and shouldn’t be prioritized over helping the kid grow up not fucked up. At the same time, kids really aren’t as disturbed by “adult” topics as parents are and most are not at all affected or traumatized by seeing sexual content or “adult” jokes. That should be the real settlement rather than trying to set up this fucked up, now everyone suffers faux detente.

Comment #238: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  09:00 PM

I could always - always - know that my care for the kids was something temporary, not permanent: and if I got truly frustrated or annoyed, I had the option of going “okay, bye, not doing this again”.

This sounds perilously close to suggesting that violence is acceptable so long as you were legitimately provoked by a frustrating child, that the levels of frustration experience by the parent are the barometer, not the effectiveness of the behavior modification

Look, people do the spanking thing like they make excuses for torturing—-well, what if there was a ticking time bomb etc. Focusing on exceptions, seeking ways they “get” to torture, and not really looking at the mundane reality that torture doesn’t work. 

It seems to me people defend spanking because they’d like to believe it works, because it’s a pressure release valve for parents.  Whether or not it works on children falls off the table.  Its main appeal is not effectiveness, but finding the easiest way for a parent to get their way with a child who is misbehaving.  The longer routes are almost surely more effective—-it’s highly implausible that children’s psychological reactions to behavior modification differ from all other mammals—-but they are more work, and parents, like all people, are prone to eagerly seeking out shortcuts.

I realize you’re against spanking, but I think that your comment revealed more of what’s going on with the justifications than perhaps you set out to say.

Comment #239: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  09:03 PM

The scenario is a red herring intended to distract from the reality that spanking, when employed by most parents, is not used in life-threatening situations and the actual act of spanking or the threat is routine part of their disciplinary arsenal for a certain period of years (roughly ages 3-8).

I have not yet seen a single person in this thread defend spanking or swatting as anything other than an emergency maneuver.  Not one.  And yet the person who admitted that she did it in order to get her child out of the path of a moving car has gotten scolded multiple times because she just didn’t exercise proper control over her child and if she had, she wouldn’t have had to resort to violence.

I don’t know if everyone is just talking past each other here or what, but, again, I have not seen a single person here claim that routine spanking is the way to go, only that there are sometimes extreme situations where physical force is the only thing that will work.

Comment #240: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  09:05 PM

The only moment I really remember being scared of my mom as a child was not when she spanked me once or twice, but it was when she once grabbed my arm and dragged me a across a room. I stayed on my feet, and I wasn’t injured, but it hurt, and it genuinely scared me. So, yet again, kids are individuals and YMMV. (Which is to say: anecdote attack! Rar!)
Comment #228: Bagelsan on 02/23 at 06:23 PM

Yeah, I have the relative who refused to swat her kid, refused to restrain them with a leash, etc. The reasoning didn’t work - they were unmannered, violent brats.  At toddler age, would physically throw themselves back out of your arms if you tried to pick them up - that was after the biting and hitting.  She had to always hold their hands when out - she dislocated one’s elbow when he wrenched away.  Her entire family ended up being ostracized by the rest of the family because of the behavior - her kids missed out on a lot.  One is pretty much a dysfunctional socially incapacitated adult today.  Obviously this is the link that caused some of my stance re swatting.

Comment #241: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  09:05 PM

Mnemosyne at 226,

I don’t think riding your bike in front of traffic is the same thing as lying down in the road in such a way that your parent can’t remove you.  In your example, there is nothing to indicate that hitting the child was the only way to save her from imminent bodily harm.  I think situations where kids do dangerous things are indeed common.  Situations where the only solution is hitting are not common.

Comment #242: Laurie  on  02/23  at  09:08 PM

Amanda @239

Looks like that’s the case. I think part of the big problem is the idea that parents are to be selfless and inhuman. If they aren’t perfect, they are horrible. If they meet their own needs, they’re horrible.

So there’s a great psychological, abuse-response to essentially erase and justify slip-ups, fuck-ups, and giving into what’s easier and momentarily satisfying to get out the aggression dealing with an avatar of annoyance causes because otherwise they’re some kind of monster, right?

But that’s the real problem. We all fuck-up. When my partner regresses and sometimes she regresses really badly, it can be hard doing the right thing, sometimes you’ll pick the wrong thing. I’ve temporarily made things worse, I’ve done stuff I know doesn’t work because it was an easy pattern to follow.

It’s the same, but more stressful with actual child rearing. Especially with the cultural pressures that demand broken silent children in public and which sees any breakdown or parent’s taking time as bad in general so stress release can’t be gotten out how they would do it when they were younger.

And if the culture says, use this, its okay if you can justify it, it can easily fall into a psychological habit or at least a fuck-up that needs epic justification and general fear-mongering (oh, if the state has a say, they’ll take my guns…I mean, will take away my child because I swatted them to save them from a car).

It’s the psychological weight, exacerbated by the abuse-responses and parental regressions due to stress I noted as debilitating and prone to insane justifications back up thread.

We need parents to forgive and accept their fuck-ups instead of trying to raise them on a pedastal and continue chipping away at the history of abuse that poisons cultural notions of childhood and the properness of abusive raising styles.

Comment #243: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  09:13 PM

This sounds perilously close to suggesting that violence is acceptable so long as you were legitimately provoked by a frustrating child, that the levels of frustration experience by the parent are the barometer, not the effectiveness of the behavior modification. 

I thought the point being made was that as a temporary caretaker, she did not have to worry or care about issues of long term behavior modification/discipline when it came to the kids. If they were being bratty/troublesome/dangerous, she could just do the minimum needed until her time with the children was over. Parents have to concern themselves with the long-term issues of how to ensure that the child develops a sense of good behavior and self control.

Comment #244: Tyro  on  02/23  at  09:19 PM

Again - because I feel it cannot be said too often - parenting is a tough job, and good parents, being human, will never live up to their own expectations of themselves with regard to their children. Everyone who has dealt with an active and intelligent child has, at times, had a moment of WTF ARE YOU DOING YOU’RE GOING TO GET YOURSELF KILLED… and no, I don’t see it as a matter for blame if a parent reacts to that by hitting their child, because we’ve all grown up in a society where it’s considered normal and natural to hit a child for annoying adults.

But it’s not the ideal or rational choice.

The “ticking time bomb” scenario of the child who lies down in the road and won’t move and you look up and there’s a car bearing down on you and the driver hasn’t seen you/can’t swerve to avoid you? I can’t say it couldn’t happen - and anyone old enough to understand that cars kill is perfectly justified in reacting with the kind of total rage that terror brings with it - but it’s really not the basis of a rational argument for hitting children, not least because hitting this kid who is lying on the ground isn’t going to get them out of the way any faster.

Comment #245: Jesurgislac  on  02/23  at  09:20 PM

Bagelsan asks the difference between swatting your kids and dragging them away from a place where they should not be.  The dragging, in fact, might even be more frightening to a child.

But the point of refraining from swatting is NOT to shield your child from any unpleasantness in life.  After all, I plan to intentionally inflict pain on my child by arranging to have get shots to prevent childhood disease.  I also don’t mind if she is frightened when I drag her away from an oncoming car or from blocking the path of a nice lady on crutches. 

But even a very little child can understand that shots are good for you,  or that mommy had to protect you from the truck. or mommy had to get you out of the way when you wouldn’t move.  Swatting on the other hand bears virtually no relationship to any harm to be avoided.  Swatting in most instances doesn’t protect you from the truck or do anything to help the nice lady on crutches.  The message of swatting is that mommy or daddy decided to deliberately hurt and shame you because you are bad.

Comment #246: Laurie  on  02/23  at  09:21 PM

If adults see “well-behaved” aka silent, they won’t ask questions on how and will praise one’s parenting even if they are psychologically destroyed and unhappy. If adults see “rambunctious” kids they won’t contextualize to see if its natural energy and the result of vibrant youth of a healthy child, they just want it shut up and kept away from them.

If I’m in a movie theater watching a rated R movie and someone’s three-year-old is running up and down the aisles screaming then, no, I don’t indulgently think about vibrant youth.  I think, “What idiots brought their kid to a rated R movie and why can’t they keep them under control?”

Because that’s a big part of it—people who bring their children to inappropriate places often seem to let them behave inappropriately while they’re there.  My parents wouldn’t even let me see a PG-rated film until I was 10, so why are there toddlers in my theater for The Wolfman?

(Actually, I think it has to do with paranoia about child molestation and fear of leaving your child with any caregiver at all, but that’s a slightly different discussion.)

Comment #247: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  09:24 PM

240-

Physical punishment “works” like torture “works”.

But what we have is a bunch of people who “fucked-up” and let their natural instincts give in to a poor method due to natural human tendency and are wracking themselves with so much abused-instincts to self-destruction that they are trying to run away from the immense pain of the “fuck-up” by trying to ad-hoc justify it as some super duper successful strategy when employed as a last resort.

And that is the crap which is problematic. When stressed, we’ll fall on bad habits, cultural expectations, abused survival instincts, or natural aggression especially when dealing with the avatars of annoyance that are children. It’s okay if we “fuck up” and end up doing some physical punishment. Shouldn’t become a habit, but we all fuck up. We do things that don’t work and aren’t positive, because we are too stressed or tired to focus or maintain discipline on a better method. What’s problematic is when we try and justify it or treat it as something more than a minor fuck up.

The reason that people are so doggedly determined to defend the occasional few times they fucked up on a thread purportedly not about that (the defenders of spanking in limited circumstances were the first to bring it up) is that it’s triggering of the abused-victim guilt spiral over the tremendous super-human pressure placed on parents.

No one wants to fuck up their kid and fuck-ups are just so reminiscent of when one’s parents beat or fucked them up, so what if You end up fucking your kid up just as bad. That’s why the fuck ups loom and become such a giant weight that they demand justification and rationalization just to stop the hurting (the same psychological survival mechanism gained while surviving the fucked up raising one received).

What most of us are doing is trying to assert a true statement (physical punishment isn’t a good method) while remaining sympathetic to this desperate need to flee oneself (we’re not blaming you, you’re not a bad person).

But the regressed state and the abused response is hesitant and resistant to information and much of it feels like criticism because their brains are so busy criticizing themselves. It feels like attacking, because they are attacking themselves.

But it’s okay, we’re all on the same side and we love you and will hug you for as long as it takes to pass….well, electronically anyways.

Comment #248: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  09:26 PM

I don’t think anyone here has made a false equivalence between a swat and a brutal beating that causes death or serious injury.  And while I sympathize with parents, I also do not believe swatting is morally justifiable.  More to the point for this thread, the justifications of swatting normalizes the hitting of children such that it makes it acceptable to spank or beat.

I DO think there is a false equivalence made in comment 241 by phylosopher between not swatting and raising a child with no boundaries.  Refraining from swatting doesn’t mean having no standards for your kids and letting them do whatever you want.  There are plenty of alternatives to swatting.

Comment #249: Laurie  on  02/23  at  09:31 PM

I don’t think it is okay to spank kids ever as punishment, and I have never spanked a kid.  That said, with my own child, if they did something dangerous (ran into a street, reached for a hot stove), I might spank them once, right there.  Why?  Because it is conditioning, not punishment, and it is less physically damaging conditioning than getting hit by a car/getting burned by a stove.  If I did this, it would only be for that reason and before the age at which that child was able to respond to anything else.

And re: animals, yeah, a few times when dogs have gotten inappropriately and hurtfully nippy with me, I’ve bopped them on the nose, and if they’ve jumped up on me, I’ve pushed them off/removed their paws from me.

Upthread, some people mentioned adults biting children who were biters.  One of my girlfriends had her mom do that to her when she was in nursery school, and thought it was an appropriate remedy.  Any thoughts from the thread on that?  I remember at the time my reaction was horror mixed with amusement (because she told it as a funny story) mixed with hmmm, it seemed to work.

Comment #250: Ismone  on  02/23  at  09:31 PM

Jesurgislac @ 245

THIS! THISSITY THIS THIS THISSITY THIS THIS!

Parents basically are the ultimate in the guaranteed fail situation. A high pressure long-term drain on energy, resources, sanity, and time that culturally expects and demands “perfection” with ill-defined ideas of what that perfection looks like so every action even positive ones or neutral ones or momentarily negative ones appears to the person stuck in it to be “the big fuck up that will totally fuck up their kid for forever and ever, EleventyONE!”

Parents need to forgive themselves more because as noted, the abused states of constant besiegement and regression doesn’t give one the mental focus and calmness needed to actually navigate this difficult work and trust the actual instincts rather than the abused baggage and the cultural detritus.

In short, parents need to take care of themselves first, including forgiving rather than justifying fuck ups, because it’s the only way to minimize fuck ups.

Which is the real main goal.

Comment #251: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  09:33 PM

Cerebrus,

Nail on head again!  Anecdotally, I think kids can tell the difference between a parent fucking up and a parent deliberately lording it over them.  My dad was the spanker in the family and never spanked in anger—sending me the message that the harm inflicted was deliberate and intentional.  My mother never hit except once—when she completely lost her cool and slapped me really hard across the face.  It was obvious even at age 5 that she was just stressed out and didn’t really mean me harm.  It helped that she showed immediate remorse and apologized profusely.  She was able to recognize that she fucked up and it helped me that she acknowledged it explicitly.

Comment #252: Laurie  on  02/23  at  09:37 PM

OK, second time I’ve seen this false equivalence, and before it gets too far, while hitting and beating a dog, or horse, especially about the face, is counter productive, keeping a dog or a horse on lead is required for training

Leashes are rightfully considered frustration and not punishment.  Punishment is done after a behavior in order to discourage it, and is not effective.  Leashes are similar to putting chili powder on something you don’t want a puppy to chew, or putting a baby in their playpen.  It stops the behavior before it begins.

Comment #253: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  09:39 PM

@247 Mnemosyne

Well yeah, adults seeking at the moment to avoid kids (going to an R rated movie) resent kids invading the small areas of margins allowed for adult entertainment because such entertainment is marginalized on the excuse of “for the children”. This would probably be less pronounced if adult entertainment was allowed to be everywhere. A kid running around in an R rated theatre wouldn’t be more annoying than say the hideous inappropriate cheering from that type of douchebag horror fan and you know the type I’m talking about or the girls who won’t stop giggling.

Because the invasion wouldn’t feel like someone taking away what small little piece of adult land you have left away from you.

This is the main problem with the status quo.

And also what you mention about “satanic day care” type middle class white fears of leaving kids at home and no social net problems wherein it becomes prohibitively expensive or impractical to leave kids behind for a parental night or a much needed parent mental detox.

That and the fact that still today too many people have kids because of expectations or accidents rather than actual desires. But that’s a whole separate rant on another way the abuse-network perpetuates itself and ties into the anti-abortion, ant-contraception crowd who hope that the stresses of raising children will force regressions that will perpetuate child abuse and thus authoritarianism and “traditional values”.

Comment #254: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  09:42 PM

I have not yet seen a single person in this thread defend spanking or swatting as anything other than an emergency maneuver.

But that’s the point.  Torture apologists whip out the “emergency” justification, but of course it’s in service of systemic torture.  I don’t really see how this is different.  No one would blame someone who panicked and did something a little out of character and that wasn’t really that violent.

The reality of spanking, like the reality of torture, is that it’s SOP.  Now, a lot of people are spanked mildly over the years and are fine, and you can possibly say it’s not worse than other punishments. But punishment-oriented techniques of behavior modification are the least effective at getting changes, but hotly defended because they are emotionally satisfying for people who are, understandably, sick to death of putting up with little children who can be really shitty.

Comment #255: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  09:44 PM

I thought the point being made was that as a temporary caretaker, she did not have to worry or care about issues of long term behavior modification/discipline when it came to the kids.  

The point seemed to be that the frustration release valve was the chance to escape, but parents have nothing but the paddle.  She wasn’t even justifying it. Just understanding it.  And I think she’s right—-spanking is for parents, not kids.

Comment #256: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  09:45 PM

@252 Laurie

It seems so, based on child psychology books and lots of anecdotal evidence. Parents are afraid of admitting fallibility or having to stare down the immense guilt spiral from their abused regression and fears of “fucking up”. But a kid will understand that “sometimes mommies fuck up too” and will quickly forgive.

On a lesser level, I’ve dealt with it when my partner has gotten stuck in a regression cycle. I’ll say the wrong thing, apologize, make it up and undo some of the “fuck up made me say it” baggage and things quickly go back to normal. Given she’s regressing into childhood survival patterns, a child should be about the same, if not easier (since it won’t be confusing the helping person partially with the bad examples of parenting from their own history).

But yeah.

Comment #257: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  09:50 PM

Because that’s a big part of it—people who bring their children to inappropriate places often seem to let them behave inappropriately while they’re there.

This isn’t really a coincidence.  I think people who take their kids to inappropriate places often are the ones who probably had no idea how hard parenting would be, and how much they have to sacrifice.  They (understandably) miss doing adult things, and so they try to carry on as before.  They also are the ones who get fed up the quickest with the boring, tedious work of parenting (again, I can’t disagree that by the 25th time you’ve grabbed your kid and put them back in the seat, you’re ready to kill yourself or them, which is why I don’t have kids), and so the least willing to do the work. 

In the past, these parents were the quickest to spank, but they’re often restrained from this because of the taboo.  For that, we should be grateful, which is why I find exception-seeking to be disturbing, since exception-seeking tends to work in service of justifying systemic abuse.  Because while I hate kids that run wild, I’m glad their lazy parents aren’t fucking them up with a beating.  Again, I don’t blame people for being lazy.  I’m too fucking lazy to spend the time on a kid they need.

The problem is we live in a society where having children is considered the norm, just what you do.  And not everyone is cut out for that thankless, tedious work.  If having children was something you only did if you understood what it really means, and you felt that you were cut out for it, we’d have a lot fewer problems.  Of course, we’d also have a lot fewer children.

Comment #258: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  09:52 PM

@255, 256

Yup. It’s allowing the parents one all-purpose excuse to directly unleash the aggression and frustration caused by having to constantly deal with the avatars of annoyance that are children and the generalized guilt from cultural expectations on parents on the offending person without it being “bad” because it’s for a “good cause”.

Of course, the better idea is to just use the same blow off mechanisms for stress you used before the kid: have some sex, play some video games, do something stupid for one’s self, yell and scream and wear loud headphones, but those are “immature” and “unparentlike” so people feel naturally shunted into ritualized physical abuse and punishment models of child rearing even before the abused-victim regression starts getting triggered by the immense and all-consuming stresses and “guaranteed to fail” expectations.

Comment #259: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  09:55 PM

There are plenty of alternatives to swatting.
Comment #249: Laurie on 02/23 at 07:31 PM

Says the non-parent.  Which may not be effective, long or short term, with one’s particular child, which may not be practical, or possible.  I’m seeing a pretty steady diet of the feathered variety for you. Enjoy!

Comment #260: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  09:56 PM

Well, and some people are just more patient than others.  I do think learning the basics of behavioral psychology can really introduce more patience, though.  If you know that frustration/reward works better than punishment, feeling effective as you frustrate a negative behavior for the one millionth time can relieve frustration.  Or that was my experience with dog training, anyway.  And other times when I’ve had the urge to resolve a clash of wills with anyone, human or animal, by lashing out.  It basically never works the way you want it to.

Comment #261: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  09:58 PM

For what it’s worth, my four year-old responds much better to rewards (i.e., stickers on a chart) than to punishment (time out in his room).  In fact, time out is best used as a means or redirecting him when he’s refusing to comply with anything or is too hyper to focus.  It was only when we started giving stickers for good behavior that we really started to see an increase in good behavior.

Just my own anecdote, for what it’s worth.

Comment #262: Captain Bathrobe  on  02/23  at  10:01 PM

Well yeah, adults seeking at the moment to avoid kids (going to an R rated movie)

No, Cerebus, people do not go to R rated movies because they want to avoid kids. They go to R rated movies because they want to see the movie in question. And they don’t like screaming kids interrupting the movie not because they hate children but because they don’t want to be distracted from their enjoyment of the film. And people go out to dinner at a quiet restaurant not because they are trying to avoid children but because they want to spend time with their friends and loved ones during a meal without being distracted by someone (like a child) who is invading their privacy.

This isn’t that hard to understand. Now, I suppose if you think that having screaming, uncontrollable children around should be a normal state of affairs, I can see how you might feel differently, but one of the goals of parenting should be to teach children self-control, how to moderate their behavior, and focus on something other than satisfying their immediate needs in the loudest manner possible.

Now, blowing off steam in more juvenile manners might be useful for cooling off your frustration regarding a child, but the parent also has a long term goal in mind which is to ensure that a child’s misbehaviors do not become a pattern. Blowing off steam (either by playing video games or beating the child) may result in temporary relief from frustration, but it may also take the focus off the goal, which is to train a child to behave.

Comment #263: Tyro  on  02/23  at  10:04 PM

Pupleshoes @172

Ismone, and you haven’t even gotten into the level of “training up a child” where they advocate keeping newborns on feeding schedules so that they don’t “manipulate” their families. It’s led to a couple well-documented cases of failure to thrive. It’s really sad.

Is the feeding schedule thing where you ignore a baby crying to “train” them always part of this sort of abusive fundamentalist parenting? I ask because I have a relative who is due to give birth soon, and she has expressed her plans to only feed the baby every 4 hours and ignore any crying for food between feedings, and I know that’s fucked up no matter what, but if she’s falling for these sort of extreme abusive parenting styles I feel like maybe I should do something to steer her another way (maybe a different type of parenting book as a shower gift or something.) I ask because I’m genuinely concerned, and I know she has become more and more active in a church that appears somewhat cult-like to my outside observance.

Comment #264: jessilikewhoa  on  02/23  at  10:05 PM

phylosopher-

Yeah, it’s stressful, you’re going to fuck up. What, you think we don’t know this shit? That suddenly we’re going to see how the only way we’ll win the war on terror is torturing enough Al Queda number threes?

Well, no, I understand the mental need to escape it, but physical punishment models have been shown to be ineffective at actually promoting long term healthy adults. It is immensely good at producing “good” children though. Silent, abused, twitchy kids who’ll carefully make sure no adult is looking to be naughty brats and adults struggling through that history of abuse and feeling themselves regress constantly.

I’ve had to clean up my share of adults from lazy ass parents who went with these rotted out instincts of neglect, emotional abuse, and an over focus on “discipline” and “what other people see” over the healthy raising of their kids. Friends and partners.

The research is out, it doesn’t work. No matter how much you wish it worked or was necessary, doesn’t make it a good and necessary thing.

You had a fuck up, a perfectly understandable response to the high-pressure, high stress occupancy of rearing a child. It happens. We’ve all fucked up. I’ve said some dumb ass things trying to bring a regressing adult back to Earth, I’ve said some dumb ass things to kids I’ve been in authority over, and I’ll say some dumb ass things to my own kids if I have them.

And we all need to accept that and forgive that, but no, it doesn’t deserve a justification just because it’s too hard for you to face up to the fuck-ups that stress make.

Take a deep breath and forgive yourself and stop making it worse by running.

Comment #265: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  10:06 PM

Just more proof that we, as a culture, hate and resent our children for being less damaged, boring, or frightened than we are. Thus we must work overtime to make them damaged, boring, and frightened.

Whole damn nation needs therapy. Or like, a complete generational do-over.

Comment #266: Well, what?  on  02/23  at  10:06 PM

Laurie @ 249 - uh you’re making an assumption of No Boundaries - if I remember correctly there were the 123 discipline, the charts, some yelling, the timeout chair- none of which phased these kids a bit.  The place was like a war zone - she couldn’t even have a conversation with other adults. 

When her mom moved in, grandma attempted to change it - swatted the then 3 y o for grabbing and breaking her glasses deliberately, bloodying grandma’s face in the process.  The mom had a fit and nearly threw grandma out for “hitting her child.”  I was there watching, the look on the kid’s face and his never again hitting grandma (although all others were still fairgame,) leads me to believe it had a good effect that nothing else had achieved.  He and grandma had a close relationship until her death.

Comment #267: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  10:09 PM

jessielikewhoa,

Books by say, Dr. Sears, or any books regarding attachment parenting tend to be very positive about comforting a child whenever it expresses distress, and very critical of any kind of “crying it out” treatment, particularly feeding schedules.  So that might be a good place to start.  That said, I don’t know if I completely agree with attachment parenting ideas (or if I will after I have actual children) but I do think letting small infants cry it out is pretty heartless because crying is about the only way an infant can get attention, particularly when its caregivers are in another room.  (And supposedly caregivers are good at pretty quickly telling the difference between a hungry cry and a hurt cry.)

And re: hunger—we do a lot of things that decouple feelings of actual hunger from eating, which is probably a bad thing in terms of eating the food we actually need to eat.  (I.e., the dynamic of cleaning your plate at a restaurant, which I’ve fallen prey to, or parents making kids eat and then the kids puke because they really were feeling poorly and the parent didn’t believe them.  I’ve seen that happen enough times that if the kid doesn’t want to eat, I don’t make ‘em eat.)

Comment #268: Ismone  on  02/23  at  10:14 PM

Leashes are rightfully considered frustration and not punishment.  Punishment is done after a behavior in order to discourage it, and is not effective.  Leashes are similar to putting chili powder on something you don’t want a puppy to chew, or putting a baby in their playpen.  It stops the behavior before it begins.
Comment #253: Amanda Marcotte on 02/23 at 07:39 PM

Please read what I wrote - that type of “frustration” or restraining leashing is counterproductive.  No, it doesn’t stop the behavior - the dog continues to pull or attempt to run off.

A punishment which is an almost simultaneous correction is associative and has been shown to be quite effective.  It is how one gets a dog to heel off lead or to walk on a loose leash.

Comment #269: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  10:14 PM

To be specific—although Dr. Sears seems to recognize that some babies are higher need than others, he and his wife extol attachment parenting so lavishly in their books that it might lead someone to believe that if he or she doesn’t develop a significantly close/easy/effortless relationship with his or her child, he is a bad parent.  While that can be true, some children are simply harder to communicate with/bond with/prevent from breaking stuff.

Comment #270: Ismone  on  02/23  at  10:18 PM

Tyro @263

Okay, yes, duh. Of course people who go to the movies or eat dinner want to enjoy the activity. However, there is special ire raised at children specifically invading these places. I’m an introvert, any public activity or space is going to have any number of people who annoy the hell out of me and ruin the experience. In movie theatres, there are an endless calvacade of douchebags who will cheer the most misogynist moments of an adult-audienced film, any number of people who can’t stop gabbing or won’t turn off their cell-phones, loud snackers, the guy who hasn’t bathed in a week, the tall guy who sits right in front of you, etc… However, when it comes to kids in R rated movies, there is special ire. A lot of restaurants are noisy affairs. Someone is squealing excitedly in the distance, there’s a din of conversation in open areas, especially near tables where a family reunion setup is eating, and there’s the squeaky door the waiters come out of, not to mention the front door bell and clumsy or drunk people walking past but children are a special annoyance who get extra attention.

This extra attention, extra annoyance is because of the invasion. It’s specifically worse with a child because they are invading the space rather than just being one more annoyance of going out like cell phone yakkers, guys who wear too much Axe, and those slow women who take up the whole sidewalk.

And demanding children be quiet as the MOST IMPORTANT GOAL OF PARENTING is the definitional problem with why our kids get raised into abused fucked up adults. It’s not a parent’s fucking job to prevent you from having to put up with the specific annoyance of children and that specific annoyance would be less foul to you if you didn’t feel adult-specific entertainment (aka the stuff you want to see) being invaded by kids in the narrow avenues you can pursue it. You’d just treat it like cell-phone guy and rent it on DVD.

As to the last paragraph, oh, really, I didn’t know that. It’s like I didn’t mention that as the real job of a parent and that whole section was on how critical it was to that task to take care of one’s self. The shit you’ll do to “raise your child” while stressed out and regressing is generally long-term negative but short-term satisfying to adults. Whereas the stuff you can do calmed out is better long-term positive.

In the moment, you do the best you can, but in the long-term, you got to take care of yourself when your nerve ends are frayed or you are going to fuck up, frequently.

And a system that says, no, it’s neglect to do anything for yourself when you should be spending 24/7 “raising kids properly” is going to be one very open to the suggestion that there is one allowable means of blowing off steam by fucking up your kids with emotional and physical abuse and the “good raising method” of physical punishment raising styles.

In short, a system that’ll produce more fucked up abused adults constantly regressing and struggling as they try to raise kids of their own and try desperately not to fuck them up more than they themselves were.

Comment #271: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  10:22 PM

Ismone @268,

I was actually pretty much attachment parented myself, and through that method developed an incredibly close relationship with my mother that to this day makes me feel blessed, she’s pretty much my best friend. I don’t think she called it attachment parenting, but she did the whole baby-wearing/co-sleeping thing. She wasn’t so out there that she tried “elimination communication” but I was cloth diapered, breast fed til I was 2 1/2, and she made her own babyfood in the food processor. I don’t know how much of that is attachment ideas, and how much is that my mom is a big ol’ hippie, but regardless I think it was a great way to raise me, and I’m grateful she was able to work from home hence affording her and I that opportunity.

While I think it’s totally jacked to ignore a crying baby, I’m pretty lousy with confrontation so I only want to get involved (it’s a relative I’m not super close to) if there is an actual risk of physical abuse coming from my relative’s parenting ideas.

Comment #272: jessilikewhoa  on  02/23  at  10:23 PM

@266 Well, What?

Lol. Awesome. And yep, that’s pretty much what I’ve seen. My partner and I have often noted how growing up abused seems to be the norm in America, one we are just now beginning to move out of.

Therapy has helped a good number of people, but our culture is still a hodge-podge of abuse and oppression justifications and bad childhood survival mechanisms and we all need therapy to get through it and form a society that doesn’t lug around that carcass.

Comment #273: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  10:27 PM

Hey Cerberus - I’ve pretty much avoided responding to your psychobabble - but now that you want to armchair psychoanalyze me - GO FUCK YOURSELF. 

I wasn’t frustrated and acting out - I used swats on a hand or diapered backside as one method in the toolbox for raising civilized human beings.  ANd have done quite well at that, thanks.  I have elementary and middle schoolers that Amanda would probably enjoy dinning with, who can attend cultural events, carry on adult conversations and kid conversations (though they prefer adults).

Comment #274: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  10:29 PM

phylosopher-

And fuck you right back, you’ve raised quiet kids and someone like me will have to work with them as adults to deprogram the abuse back out of them.

Comment #275: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  10:31 PM

I would just like to see us get to the point where we don’t hate happy people. But then hell, I would be happy to just get myself to that point.

Comment #276: Well, what?  on  02/23  at  10:36 PM

Hmm, selective reading I see.  NO, appropriately behaved, not necessarily quiet.  It means they recognize social situations and adapt to the expected behavior - that takes a lot more than just being quiet all the time.  It also means they’ve had a LOT of exposure to those situations, which would not have been possible - they would not have been welcome in venues that normally restrict children.  Since they are the result of both nature and nurture, and that nurture included the occasional swat, the anecdata here says, not harmful, actually helpful.

Comment #277: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  10:38 PM

Hey Stubbles,

Please, come talk to my just-turned-3 y/o about pooping in the potty.  I’d LOVE it.

You know what her answer will be, when you ask her why she doesn’t poop in the potty?

“I DON’T WANT TOOOOO!!!!!!

Or maybe she’ll just run away and hide.  If she’s got a dirty diaper, I guarantee that’s what she’ll do.

She can have a totally reasonable conversation about it.  She will agree it’s stinky and yucky and it would be better to put it in the potty.  That the poop will be happier to go swimming.  That it’s much better not to get a rash.  That she can’t go to school until she stops wearing a diaper.

Then she’ll tell you she’ll do it “Tomorrow”.  Tomorrow has the benefit of never being today.

We’ve had these discussions for over a year, but I’m sure with your amazing Child Whispering skillz, it could be solved tomorrow!

Whenever tomorrow gets here.

B/c, you know, we idiot parents never talk to our children.  We only use one method of parenting, whether it works or not, and don’t have the sense to try other things unless the childfree geniuses suggest them.

I suppose could beat the shit out of her, but that’s not really an effective method.  The only thing that’s worked is if I don’t let her wear any pants and leave the potty out in the living room.

Yep.  I don’t let the child have clothes.  I’m not really fond of that method right now, being as it’s winter.  I don’t have a washer/dryer in my unit, so training pants are a pain as well. 

Thing is, even though it’s embarrassing to me to have a just-turned-3 y/o who isn’t toilet trained, it’s not embarrassing to her.  She will get it.  She will learn use the potty, just as her siblings
did.  Then we can stop calling it “the potty”.  But it’s not going to happen until she decides she wants it to happen, and beating kids doesn’t work any better than rewarding them when it comes to potty training (beating them actually is much worse and causes regression, but I digress) and what works for one kid doesn’t work for another and sleeping dry at night, peeing in the potty and pooping in the potty are three different skills.

But, gosh darn it, kids just like you, so I’m sure you could fix things right up!

——————-
Amanda’s completely correct about children running around in restaurants.  They should not be allowed to do that.  My kids hit a point around 18 months to 2 y/o when they can’t be taken to restaurants.  Before that, they’re small enough that you can either feed them first and they’ll sleep or they can be otherwise controlled.  At 2ish, they start yelling “No” and don’t understand why they have to wait for food or wait for others to finish eating.

So eating out becomes eating at McDonalds for 6 months.  It sucks, but eventually they can be reasoned with and can be taken out to breakfasts, then early dinners eaten quickly and work up to more formal occasions. 

Unless Stubbles is around.  I’m sure Stubbles could reason with a toddler.  Just treat him/her like a 24 y/o, that’s the ticket!

Comment #278: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/23  at  10:39 PM

I’m sure Stubbles could reason with a toddler.  Just treat him/her like a 24 y/o, that’s the ticket!

Well, on the other hand, a beer and a shot would probably calm that toddler right down.

Comment #279: Well, what?  on  02/23  at  10:44 PM

jessilikewhoa, is she doing Babywise? Here’s a copy of a very cautionary article on Babywise from the American Academy of Pediatrics. I can tell you that if she’s planning to breastfeed, she’s setting herself up for trouble putting a newborn on a schedule because human women aren’t cows. We don’t have pouches to store milk if the baby doesn’t eat, it just sits in the duct; if breastfeeding babies don’t remove the milk that’s being produced, the breast stops making milk (or as much milk) because the cells lining the duct in charge of making milk get squished under the pressure and shut down. Young babies have tiny, tiny bellies - the size of a large marble - and need to eat really frequently to avoid dehydration (they’re fine for the first three or four days postpartum, but after that eating is non-optional). They also have to learn the connection between sucking and eating - they didn’t eat by sucking in utero - and messing up that learning curve with schedules can produce some scary results (seriously, if you want to be alarmed you can google “babywise failure to thrive”. If she’s giving formula, the baby might be less screamy (formula is much harder to digest and thus babies feel full for longer) but it still is not best practices. I have not breastfed a baby myself, mind, nor given birth, but I’m taking an infant nutrition class at this very moment, so please forgive the spew of information. If she’s breastfeeding, there are a lot of religious-people-friendly resources through La Leche League - here’s their reading list: La Leche League reading. Unfortunately my class is very breastfeeding-focused (a lot of the students are going to go on to become lactation consultants) so I don’t know of good resources on infant feeding for non-breastfeeders. Dr. Sears is actually fairly in line with a lot of maternal and child health research, but he gets a really bad rap from fundies for being “permissive”. Best of luck, it sounds like a tough situation. Again, sorry that I only know of things that will help breastfeeding mothers, but if she can talk to a certified lactation consultant the consultant might be able to help her get her head straight.

Comment #280: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  10:47 PM

phylosopher-

I’m sorry for the outburst, that was unproductive.

But the research pretty well shows that physical punishment methodologies of raising kids is great at short-term strategies involved in meeting cultural demands (quiet kids at dinner tables, seen but not heard), but are really bad long term (creating full adults that are fully able to access their full emotional range without hitting triggers, regressions, or guilt spirals).

Now I’ve spent 4 and a half years of my life slowly untangling the ritualistic abuse from my partner, a task I will likely spend my entire life on (a wonderful life, but that’s tangental to my point). This is because her mother emotionally abused her and drank heavily. And she did this because her father believed in the power of the fists to “raise civilized human beings”. And he produced some of the quietest, meekest, most well-behaved children you ever did see. They were so “well-behaved” that only one in a set of 10 was actually able to move away and most were unable even to make a friend outside the family because they were so emotionally crippled and damaged.

I see my partner’s nephew and niece raised in fundamentalist christianity. They are quiet and well-behaved and looked at like model citizens and I know from intimate knowledge of the cult that those kids will grow up as stunted adults especially if they feel the first stirring of same-sex attraction or first suspicion that it’s all bullshit.

I’ve helped my male best friend slowly go through his adolescence in his early twenties because he was prevented from growing up, especially sexually while under the roof of his fundie captors. He was a good son, quiet, well-meaning. He even inherited some good qualities and every day is a struggle to deprogram himself a little more. Her sister is completely brainwashed, nearly suicidal and completely locked down over her same sex attractions, she has already given up on having her own life.

I’ve helped a suicidal close friend who grew up physically abused and raped at the hands of her father and brother. She is constantly suicidal and as hard as a clam to open up and help without triggering her.

I’ve tried and failed to save the emotionally abused ex-catholic survivors who were trapped in a decaying empire of a house trying desperately to reach the emotional maturity of teenagers in their 20s against years of programming and punishments. They were supposedly quiet as kids, they’re now dancing on the borders of homicidal or sociopathic.

And I’ve held the hands of any number of acquaintances and friends trapped in guilt spirals about sex or identity or simply having a dream deemed frivolous.

In short, I’ve learned first hand that growing up abused, damaged, fucked up is almost default, the norm and with something this clear on the research, so obviously in benefit of parents rather than kids and in the wake of the news story mentioned above and what anger issues it triggers in me, well…

Sometimes I fuck up too and fly off the handle.

I’m sorry.

Comment #281: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  10:48 PM

Caren, I once convinced a two-year-old to use the potty for the first time by telling her calmly that we liked spending time with her but we’d have more fun together if we could stay at the park instead of going home to change diapers. It actually worked. I have officially used up my potty-training luck for the rest of my life on that one, so I’m figuring if I actually breed I’m going to get a poo-smearer.

Comment #282: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  10:51 PM

Caren-

Yup, avatars of annoyance. Toddlers are especially problematic because they are in a stage of testing resistance to parental authority and trying to find out about the world but with only the bare minimum of emotional sanity and empathy having been trained yet.

Sadly the “best” methodology for dealing with this time is forcing through the tiring games and arguing logically and empathically for various tasks, but toddlers are pretty much the most annoying stage so few, even the hardy have the patience or mental fortitude not to just cut corners and figure out what you can stand to do and hope for the best.

Comment #283: Cerberus  on  02/23  at  10:56 PM

Well what, back at the turn of the last century one way to get a teething child to stop crying was to give it a syrup that included alcohol and morphine (I also seem to recall that some put a cocaine mix on gums).

Comment #284: JohnL  on  02/23  at  10:59 PM

Yeah but I’m not about to smear something on a 24 year old’s gums. This is the Stubbles School of Parenting, remember—Only treat the child as you would treat a person your own age. Since I’m somewhat crappy at talking to people my own age while sober, I’d just have to booze it up with my kid.

Comment #285: Well, what?  on  02/23  at  11:04 PM

There sure is a whole lot of this thread in this thread.

Comment #286: Dan  on  02/23  at  11:04 PM

Wait wait wait - morphine and alcohol - damn, I knew there was something I was doing wrong for my pain relief.

Comment #287: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/23  at  11:06 PM

The Stubbles school of parenting probably works fine - as per my anecdote - if you’re not actually a parent. Trust me, months of suggesting politely that the kid might enjoy using the potty did nothing for the actual parents, but bring in a family friend to try talking to the kid like an adult works surprisingly often. It’s the novelty, I think.

Comment #288: purpleshoes  on  02/23  at  11:09 PM

Another spanking issue is that it disrespects the child’s bodily integrity—if they child’s body does not belong to him/her, and authority figures can do things to his/her body that zie does not want—well, you can see the potential future sexual and physical abuse that may leave the child open to.

Unfortunately, this explains way too much. The first year of raising a kid involves disrespecting their bodily integrity pretty much on an hourly basis. Until they’re potty-trained a parent or caregiver is going to be disrespecting their bodily integrity half a dozen times a day.

And any action that quickly gets them out of harm’s way or stops them from injuring others is going be frustrating, angering and somewhat scary. So I think it’s the context. When, for example, Laurie writes that being spanked half a dozen times left her living in a general state of fear, I have to wonder whether that’s the result of the spanking, or of a more generally abusive atmosphere where the spanking was just the icing on the cake. (Disclosure: when I was a kid, I used to wish my parents would spank me, something I remember happening only a couple of times. I used to wish there would be any non-symbolic physical contact at all. So my idea of abuse has very little to do with physical violence.)

Comment #289: paul  on  02/23  at  11:17 PM

The modern equivalent is Benadryl for airline flights.  Not that I’ve done it or advocate it - just what I’ve heard.

Comment #290: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  11:30 PM

My parents wouldn’t even let me see a PG-rated film until I was 10, so why are there toddlers in my theater for The Wolfman?

Because those idiots can’t afford a babysitter and a movie.  And they don’t know or care that every act of violence you see desensitizes you to some extent to future acts of violence.

It doesn’t actually surprise me that much that torture is fine and dandy with most Americans now.  They’ve seen so many gruesome acts of violence that ‘mock drowing’ just doesn’t seem like a big deal.  It’s not like blood spurts everywhere, even if people die once in a while.

But punishment-oriented techniques of behavior modification are the least effective at getting changes, but hotly defended because they are emotionally satisfying for people who are, understandably, sick to death of putting up with little children who can be really shitty.

It’s simply not possible to ignore all bad behavior and only reward good behavior.  Some bad behaviors have to have consequences and punishments, or they will never stop. 

It’s no good for it to be the only tool used, but punishment most certainly has its place.  More than that, for me the threat of punishment is effective.  “Stop right now or no Wii for a week” is quite effective for immediate response from the 9 y/o.

Afterward we can talk about why I expect whatever behavior I expect, but in the moment, the kids need to obey me. 


The difference between what I do and what the assholes in the post do is not just degree.  It’s not just that my punishments are non-violent.  My kids are little.  There is a limit to how much reasoning they are capable of…even the fucking Catholic Church wouldn’t hold the younger two accountable for anything—they can’t even sin.

They need to listen and hop when I say so, because I’m the mommy and I say so.  We can talk about it later, and we do, but if I say “Get out of the kitchen!  I’m cooking!” they’d better go.

As they grow older, they need to become more independent and make more decisions on their own. I want them to grow up and become more independent.  The older they get, the more we can have reasonable discussions about what is and is not acceptable behavior, and what compromises we both can make to stay happy under the same roof.

That’s the difference.

These assholes want their children to obey b/c their children are slaves.  They are to be submissive and obedient without quesiton always, simply because they want them to be submissive and obediant.  They’re beating the life and spirit out of their children and wives because they are hateful people who don’t believe that their children or wives are human beings.

They killed that girl for mispronouncing a word. 

They killed her. 

For mispronouncing a word.

They need to be locked away forever.

Conflating that behavior with someone spanking a child once or twice during toddlerhood is offensive.  Spanking is probably never the best option, but there’s a world of difference between trying to protect your child so that s/he can grow up and be a happy adult and beating a child in order to have him/her be a “willingly” submissive and dependent slave.

Comment #291: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/23  at  11:30 PM

To Cerberus @ 281.  Or observational experiences had very different data sets - no wonder we disagree - vehemently.  We can agree to continue doing so.

Comment #292: phylosopher  on  02/23  at  11:33 PM

@ 93: “That a child isn’t self-motivated any longer is irrelevant, as long as they aren’t a pain in the ass, I guess. “

I don’t think it’s irrelevant; I think it’s the *point*.  Progressive parents (and I would think probably most mainstream parents) want their kids to develop the capacity to make their own moral choices.  If the child is taught, “we share because that’s what we do,” they may learn to share, but if they learn, “we share because it makes other people feel good, because it encourages others to share with us, and because we know that it’s more fun to play together anyway,” they not only learn to share, but also learn a method of making choices that they can apply to other situations.  This type of parents understand that the grown child’s choices might not always be identical with the ones that they would make, but they figure that if the child grows up learning how to apply the family’s values to various situations, he or she will make well-reasoned moral choices in adulthood, when exposed to situations that parents couldn’t have directly anticipated.

Fundamentalist parents, on the other hand, appear to believe that morals and values should be learned by rote.  We share because it’s the rule, we don’t hit because it’s the rule (unless we are parents, in which case we do hit, because it’s the rule), we do as we’re told because that’s the rule.  The central lesson is not “here’s how you make moral choices,” but “the moral choices have already been made; your role is to obey.”  In general, they don’t *want* the child to learn to make moral choices, because that might lead to the child disagreeing with the parents’ choices—which then leads to adults disagreeing with the minister’s choices, or the minister disagreeing with the church’s teachings, and then you have chaos!  The idea instead is to learn the rules, and then apply them.  If a novel situation arises, apply whatever rule seems most relevant, rather than make a new decision about what to do.

The thing is that these people, as far as I can tell, *really believe* that human beings do not have the innate capacity to make good moral choices without the threat of divine punishment.  I have no idea why these people get out of bed in the morning, if that’s what they believe, but if one accepts that (flawed) premise, then everything else they do makes sense.  They don’t see a difference between telling a child, “Don’t say things like that, it hurts my feelings,” and telling the wind not to blow because it makes them feel cold. 

Now, I’m talking about worldview here—in actual practice, things are more complicated.  Every day fundamentalists make good choices out of genuine empathy and compassion, rather than because they fear making God-Daddy mad.  And every day, progressives follow rules for no other reason than to avoid a negative artificial consequence, or even for no other reason than because it’s a rule they learned.

For instance, there are procedures at work that I think are stupid, but I follow them because I want to keep my job.  And I use my turn signal even when it’s the middle of the night or I’m on a country road and there is no other car anywhere near, because that’s just what you do—after a while, the rule becomes automatic and it’s easier just to follow it than to evaluate every situation case-by-case.  That’s a perfectly reasonable tendency when it comes to turn signals, but could be very dangerous if rules governing more complicated situations became similarly automated.  But for fundamentalists, that is the desired outcome, because if it’s left up to you to make the choices, owing to the innately sinful nature of man, you’ll make a bad one.

Comment #293: A.  on  02/24  at  12:46 AM

*snort* on the topic of asking toddlers and preschoolers why . . .

If you ask my 3.5-year-old why he misbehaves, his general explanation is “I am SAD AT YOU.”

If you ask him why he darts and runs away, his general explanation is “Lightening McQueen goes FAST. I am Lightening McQueen.” (Yes, Cars has been banned in our household.)

I have a leash, but luckily only one kid, so I generally don’t use it too often. Why I have a leash: he does not hold hands. He will pull away from forced hand-holding until he injures his arm. Backpack leashes do not cause nursemaid’s elbow.  (Family history also suggests easily dislocate-able elbows; I have dislocated mine even as an adult.)

Last time I used the leash, we were visiting a historical fort which had a 2 story drop off with no barrier or ledge around its entire entry level. The leash went on after the first tackle I did after the child dashed toward the dropoff.  I don’t care what he learns from it, I don’t want him taking a 2.5 story fall.

Comment #294: hp  on  02/24  at  01:05 AM

Well what, back at the turn of the last century one way to get a teething child to stop crying was to give it a syrup that included alcohol and morphine

My Texas-born and bred grandmother suggested using paregoric(a tincture of alcohol and opium) that was available there until the mid 60s’ for me when I was teething in the early 60s, it was to be used topically.

Comment #295: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/24  at  01:14 AM

purpleshoes @280

Thank you so much for the info on Babywise, from that blog post and your description of the book I’m inclined to think that is the exact book she is reading. I think I’ll probably get her some sort of lit from La Leche League, and a book from Dr. Sears. She has a babysling on her registry so I know she’s open to ideas besides the dangerous ones in Babywise. I just hope she isn’t offended at getting parenting books, I hate being pushy.

Comment #296: jessilikewhoa  on  02/24  at  01:32 AM

OK, this is sick (from the “train up a child” ebook, linked above):  “Of course, they always wanted to touch [the wood stove in the family’s home—a.], so I held them off until the stove got hot enough to inflict pain without deep burning—testing it with my own hand. When the heat was just right, I would open the door long enough for them to be attracted by the flames. I then move away. The child would inevitably run to the stove and touch it. Just as his hand touched the stove, I would say, “Hot!” It usually took twice, sometimes three times, but they all learned their lesson… It was so effective that, thereafter, if I wanted to see them do a back flip, all I had to do was say, “Hot!!” They would turn loose of a glass of iced tea.”

Now, obviously, teaching a child that the stove is hot is a good idea—if you heat your house with a woodstove, it’s not realistic to assume that the child can be kept from touching it until s/he is old enough to understand that’s it hot.  And setting up the situation where the child will touch it when it’s hot enough to startle, but not to do harm—OK, I can live with that.  The money shot here is the last sentence.  The *entire point of the exercise*, in this man’s mind, is that now his child will take his word, *even against the evidence of his own senses*.  That is just depraved.

Comment #297: A.  on  02/24  at  01:37 AM

I just hope she isn’t offended at getting parenting books, I hate being pushy.
Comment #296: jessilikewhoa on 02/23 at 11:32 PM

Unsolicited comment - if you can afford it Jess, make it a basket with a nursing top, or a homemade nursing pillow - if you put the literature into a themed basket it becomes less pushy.

Comment #298: phylosopher  on  02/24  at  01:52 AM

phylosopher @298

A nursing pillow is a great idea! Thank you. My mom and I are going in together on her gifts and already bought a Waldorf cuddle doll and a handmade stuffed owl from etsy for the baby, but still planned to get a few other things, so a nursing pillow and a Dr. Sears book could round things out nicely.

Also thanks to everyone who mentioned Dr. Sears, like I said, I was attachment parented, but had no idea who was behind the movement.

Comment #299: jessilikewhoa  on  02/24  at  02:12 AM

A. @297-

They are openly about pavlov’s conditioning and other animal behavior modification experiments. The thing is that these experiments will work on humans. Physical punishment will promote “better” kids that are quieter and “more respectful”, training them to the word hot will cause responses to the word, beating them with negative reinforcement constantly will lead to them being afraid to do anything and being delightfully frightened of the man’s mighty penis and etc…

But as the infamous nazi experiments showed and examinations of abuse victims and PTSD sufferers, reducing that which was once men to animalistic beings focused only on survival and trained like beasts creates something broken which is very hard to fix and certainly will be a poor version of a full adult.

That kid trained on hot will years later, crumple at the stadium when a vendor cries hot dogs that is if they can even function that well.

Like with their phony fetus love crap. They don’t really care about kids and raising “moral” adults. They want another butt in the seats and they don’t care if it’s quivering in terror at every noise or fast movement or if it can even get to bed at the age of 21 without crying itself to sleep.

And exploiting our animal brains is just one great tool for getting that.

These people are openly hostile to life in all of its fleshy, thinking realness.

Comment #300: Cerberus  on  02/24  at  02:17 AM

Ismone: on the ending biting by biting, though some parents are successful with this it can also backfire horribly and encourage the behavior (especially if you don’t bite hard enough; but bite too hard and you can injure your child).  If “no”, time out, or removal from the situation aren’t working you can demonstrate for the child what biting feels like by taking their own arm and pressing it firmly against their upper teeth.  This is usually sufficient to demonstrate that biting is not funny, but hurts. My son bit me all of three times (three nights in a row): first night “No!”; second night we tested the biting against his arm; the third night he got a time out.  He has never bitten me again.

Captain Bathrobe: I am finding the same thing with my son in regards to time out and loss of privileges. Being able to put stickers on the behavior chart and making explicit how we expect him to behave has actually significantly reduced the amount of negative behavior that needs to be addressed because we instead are focusing him on what he CAN do and how to EARN privileges.  For instance, he was developing a nasty backtalk habit so that is one of the behaviors on the chart. Now, if he starts I ask him if he is backtalking and he immediately stops and focuses on what he is actually feeling (“I don’t like this” rather than “I hate you”).  Literally we went from hellish days to—in one week—relatively placid days all while reducing the amount of punishing and no hitting/swatting.

Caren:  My son didn’t start potty training until age 3 and was totally uninterested in it until he spend three weeks with his female cousins, all of whom were potty trained even the one younger than him.  He came home and wanted to start potty training. Many kids go from resisting potty training to wanting it due to peer pressure, so (if you haven’t already) find a friend whose child is potty training and let your kids spend time together. 

Mnemosyne:  Unfortunately, we do have some posters like phylosopher justifying using hitting as one of her methods of discipline outside of extraordinary circumstances like immediate danger to life and limb.

Look, other than Stubbles, I haven’t seen anyone else conflating the murderous abuse of this poor young girl with spanking. But to ignore that these actions exist on a continuum in which many people really cannot draw a clear line between “discipline” and “abuse” suggests that maybe we ought not to be going to extreme lengths to justify circumstances under which it is tolerable to hit a child and maybe concede that, while it doesn’t necessarily make one a bad parent for using spanking, it is something that should be discouraged.

Comment #301: history_mom  on  02/24  at  03:05 AM

I can understand how being a good parent is difficult and that even very good parents make mistakes with respect to disciplining their children.  That said, if I ever have children (which is not likely), I will be very, very reluctant to hit them at all.  It would remind me too much of the physical punishments I received as a child.  I did not get them regularly (usually my father’s simply being angry was scary enough), but when I did, they were a lot more than spanking.

Comment #302: Linnaeus  on  02/24  at  03:37 AM

Sometimes when my son is being particularly obnoxious, I tell my wife: “my opposition to corporal punishment is being sorely tested right now.”  This is usually the point where she offers to take over from me until I calm down (this cuts both ways, as I relieve her when she’s feeling stressed).

Having two parents really helps.  I don’t know how single parents do it.

Comment #303: Captain Bathrobe  on  02/24  at  04:27 AM

If your child truly cannot understand that [getting hit by a car hurts] just by telling them, then they should never be in a situation where can they run out into the street.

This whole thread can be (and probably should have been) summed up in this sentence.

Comment #304: Auguste  on  02/24  at  06:51 AM

I disagree that we could sum up the whole thread in one sentence, but if we could:
In short, parents need to take care of themselves first, including forgiving rather than justifying fuck ups, because it’s the only way to minimize fuck ups.

This from Cerberus.

Comment #305: Jesurgislac  on  02/24  at  08:44 AM

The leash went on after the first tackle I did after the child dashed toward the dropoff.  I don’t care what he learns from it, I don’t want him taking a 2.5 story fall.

Exactly.  Safety is more important than anything else at this stage.  I had a wrist leash for my son.  We would go to Wiggleworms music class on the el—we had to run up and down stairs and switch lines and directions.  To get money out and purchase a fare card from the vending machine (only way to purchase a fare card) takes two hands.  Or at least I need two hands.

So leashed he was.  That way I could be sure he didn’t run far.  My MIL told me that I should just teach him to listen and stand still, b/c that’s what she would have done.

Bitch beat my hubby with a belt. 

Some kids are quiet by nature.  Some are runners.  Most kids can run before they can talk and they can run long before they have any real reasoning skills.  You do what you have to do to keep the child safe.  And I don’t think remaining locked in a child-proofed house is an acceptable response.

And with the biting?  That reminded me that I DID actually spank a baby!  My son bit the hell out of my boob when nursing. 

He did it once, b/c I screamed, spanked him before I thought anything, and tossed him off my boob.

I’d hit a 24 y/o who bit my boob that hard, too, so I think I pass that test.

He never did it again, but I think removing him from the breast was the most effective part, though the scream was good in that respect as well.  It was a triple threat.

(BTW, childfree, chewing is NOT how you breastfeed.  There’s no chewing motion involved.  I won’t go into any more detail, but biting was something he just tried b/c he was full and he could)

As for summing up the thread in one sentence?

Don’t fucking beat your kids to death in attempts to turn them into mindless, subservient, obedient slaves—they are human beings, so treat them like human beings.

Comment #306: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/24  at  10:48 AM

They are openly about pavlov’s conditioning and other animal behavior modification experiments. The thing is that these experiments will work on humans. Physical punishment will promote “better” kids that are quieter and “more respectful”, training them to the word hot will cause responses to the word, beating them with negative reinforcement constantly will lead to them being afraid to do anything and being delightfully frightened of the man’s mighty penis and etc…

But as the infamous nazi experiments showed and examinations of abuse victims and PTSD sufferers, reducing that which was once men to animalistic beings focused only on survival and trained like beasts creates something broken which is very hard to fix and certainly will be a poor version of a full adult.

Yes Cerberus, that is what “they” (Pearlites) are about - but associative word training used when the child is pre=verbal to long explanations really doesn’t have the effect they claim without reinforcement - and stronger and stronger reinforcement.  ANd, as Caren pointed out, there’s a huge difference.

Comment #307: phylosopher  on  02/24  at  12:13 PM

So leashed he was.  That way I could be sure he didn’t run far.  My MIL told me that I should just teach him to listen and stand still, b/c that’s what she would have done.

I have been trying to “teach” the kid to stand still, but I have the feeling it’s about a futile as teaching myself to stand still. I’m in my 30s, and can’t stand still.  I am constantly in motion.

In general, the kid has learned not to dart himself into danger when he darts (and return after he darts), which is why the leash isn’t in use more often nowadays. But a situation I wasn’t expecting either—like entering that fort and finding that completely unprotected dropoff—I don’t know exactly how he’s going to react in the 60 minutes we’re going to be there, if he’s going to forget about the edge and dart at it again, and I’d rather be safe. I haven’t had him on the el, but that’s probably another place where I’d strongly consider using it.

And the leash is all that remains. Strollers attempt to keep him still, which drives him insane, and he either extracts himself from them (he’s been able to undo all forms of straps since 18 months) or turns into a total loud-mouthed grump.  The backpack carrier was a much more acceptable option to him, but he just hit 1/3 my body weight so I don’t feel safe/balanced carrying him anymore, and my husband’s bad back forced him to give up carrying him a year before I gave up.

Comment #308: hp  on  02/24  at  12:19 PM

Because while I hate kids that run wild, I’m glad their lazy parents aren’t fucking them up with a beating.

Amanda, sorry to continue an already overlong off-topic thread, but I have to speak up in defense of “lazy” parenting.  To be healthy and well-adjusted, children need to be socialized.  Parents also need social interaction to maintain mental health.  It’s only natural that parents would want to socialize their children by taking them out in public. 

Letting children “run wild” in a low-risk setting with other people around is a great way for children to actively figure out social rules and boundaries.  Unfortunately for innocent bystanders such as yourself, as children learn how to interact with other people, they are going to experiment in healthy ways that are both rude and selfish.  They may even display inappropriate (and healthy!) levels of physical activity.  That many parents allow their children to interact with you in ways you find annoying doesn’t make them lazy, it makes them good parents. 

The problem is we live in a society where having children is considered the norm, just what you do.  And not everyone is cut out for that thankless, tedious work.

While “having children” might be the norm, “taking children out in public” is still a marginalized activity, which certainly stems from our society’s historical patriarchal tendency to relegate women and children to restricted domains like “the home” (because we want to cherish and protect them, amirite?).  Our society still offers little in the way of support for families with children in the public sphere, except for various cloistered “family-friendly”  settings.  This is one case where I think your privilege as a kidfree person is blinding you to the very real struggle of parents in our society.

Comment #309: charles w  on  02/24  at  12:56 PM

Letting children “run wild” in a low-risk setting with other people around is a great way for children to actively figure out social rules and boundaries.

Charles, a restaurant is not a “low-risk” setting, unless you think that while running around unfettered there’s absolutely no risk that your child could be stepped on, have a tray of food dropped on them by a server, get hold of a pot of hot coffee and spill it on themselves, break a glass, pick up a knife ... shall I go on?

Chuck E Cheese or a McDonald’s Playplace is an appropriate location for your child to run wild because those are actual low-risk settings that have been designed not to endanger their customers.  A normal restaurant is not a low-risk setting by any stretch of the imagination.

I suppose you could argue that a movie theater is a low-risk setting since there’s very little the child could injure him/herself with, but try telling the people who paid $10 to see the movie that there’s nothing wrong with letting your child run wild during the film because they’re not totally socialized yet and what did they expect from a child?  (Hint:  They expected to be able to watch the movie that they paid for, not be constantly distracted by your child.  If they wanted to watch your child perform, they would buy tickets to his/her school play.)

Comment #310: Mnemosyne  on  02/24  at  01:06 PM

Thing is, hp, you’re not going to put the kid on a leash forever.  You totally expect him to grow up, become more responsible, more sensible, and more independent.  You put him on a leash now for safety.  All of my kids are too old for that now, and I’m glad.

These whackadoodles want their children to behave like they’re on a leash for their entire lives.  Doesn’t matter if the leash is real or not; step out of line and be beaten into submission.  Not for safety, but simply for submission’s sake.

My son actually never endangered himself on the el.  God, carrying him up and down those stairs on a dash nearly killed me, but he was good about staying with me. 

It’s just that I had to let go sometimes, such as buying a fare card.  So I had the leash to be safe, even though before having a child I thought only horrible parents would do such a thing.

Another case of being damned if you do and damned if you don’t.  If you put a leash on a toddler, you’re a horrible parent who treats your child like a pet.  If they break out of your hands for a split second and fall off a platform, you’re a horrible parent for not protecting them.

Have you tried a babywrap?  It’s a really long strip of cloth that you can wrap around yourself and carry your child in the front or back, and since it’s wrapped around your waist and both shoulders, it distributes the weight.  Bigger kids ride piggyback, but secure and you can have your hands free while carrying them.

Although your kid might feel too restrained piggybacked.

I’m just not a very strong person, and those damn baby bjorns always hurt, even when carrying a 10# infant.  The backpacks were so heavy even without a child in them I didn’t see the point.  Mostly I make the kids walk, though we do have a stroller for occasional use, like going to the zoo.  I’m glad they’re bigger, and I’m so looking forward to the end of the Decade of Diapers.

Seriously, childfree, most children wear diapers for 3 years.  It never gets fun.

Comment #311: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/24  at  01:18 PM

<quote>    They are openly about pavlov’s conditioning and other animal behavior modification experiments. The thing is that these experiments will work on humans. Physical punishment will promote “better” kids that are quieter and “more respectful”, training them to the word hot will cause responses to the word, beating them with negative reinforcement constantly will lead to them being afraid to do anything and being delightfully frightened of the man’s mighty penis and etc…
</quote>

The trouble is that they know next to nothing about behavioral psych.  THEY’RE DOING IT WRONG.  A beating isn’t a negative reinforcement. It’s a punisher. “Negative reinforcement” is the removal of a positive stimulus when a child misbehaves. A time-out is a negative reinforcement because it removes the child from a positive stimulus—play time and social company. “Positive reinforcement” is the giving of a reward when a child (or an animal) performs a required behavior.  In terms of effectiveness, the most effective technique for behavior training is the use of rewards (positive reinforcement), followed by negative reinforcement, followed distantly by the use of punishers.  The techniques of positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement have been incorporated as tools into cognitive-behavioral therapy which is the most prominent field of psychology in US practice today.  Most US parents rely heavily on a combination of positive reinforcement (rewards) and negative reinforcement (time-outs) with great results.

Behavioral psychologists long ago had an internal debate about the ethics of using punishers to train human subjects and most came down on the side of it being unethical.

The use of punishers to train children does NOT make them “better” or more manageable children. They’re at higher risk for drug use, alcohol use, and risky behaviors. They fight more.  They misbehave more in school. They’re more aggressive as they get older. They’re at much higher risk of suicide.  They’re more likely to get into criminal trouble.

Comment #312: Dawn  on  02/24  at  01:32 PM

charles w., just no.

I am the parent of 3.  I take them into public. I NEVER let them run around in restaurants.  It’s never acceptable, unless you are at Chuck E Cheese and they are supposed to be running around the restaurant playing games.

It’s just fucking annoying.  It’s not fair to anyone else.  It’s not fair to the kid.  When they get antsy, it’s either time to leave the restaurant or for one of the parents to take the kid out or otherwise distract the child.  My husband and I eat very quickly, as do the parents of most small humans, since they just don’t have much of an attention span.

Seriously.  The kid can learn social rules from you telling him/her sternly “Do not run around this restaurant.  That’s rude.  If you keep doing it, we will leave and you will lose (whatever privilege matters to the kid at the moment).”

If your kid can’t handle the restaurant, then you need to confine restaurants to McDonald’s or babysitters till s/he can.  For mine, it’s about a 6-month span around the age of 2, but then it’s over and we can all return to our previously scheduled routine.

It’s not the KID’S fault.  Rude kids are not the problem.  They all have parents who either brought them into inappropriate situations for their current development or who haven’t bothered to socialize them properly.

People who let their kids run around in restaurants make it harder for the rest of us with kids to be accepted in public.  And TIP, damnit.  Yes, feeding a family is more expensive than going out as a couple, but you don’t get to go cheap on a tip b/c you have kids. 

More than that, you need to praise the kid for being good.  It’s hard b/c they don’t attract your attention when they are being good like they do when they are misbehaving.  You need to interrupt them when they are playing quietly and nicely and let them know how proud you are of THAT behavior, or in this situation, how happy you are that they are eating nicely with utensils and with their mouths closed.

Comment #313: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/24  at  01:32 PM

But, Caren, according to some folks around here, if you take your restless child into a fancy restaurant because you didn’t plan ahead for dinner and the patrons object, that’s just because they hate children and want them confined to their houses outside of school until they are 12 years old and they grow out of it.

Comment #314: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/24  at  02:08 PM

Charles, a restaurant is not a “low-risk” setting, unless you think that while running around unfettered there’s absolutely no risk that your child could be stepped on, have a tray of food dropped on them by a server, get hold of a pot of hot coffee and spill it on themselves, break a glass, pick up a knife ... shall I go on?

By that standard, your home is not a “low-risk” setting either.

It depends on the restaurant, as much as it does the child.

There’s an Indian restaurant in my city - a lovely, gourmet-vegetarian place, wins food awards - which also won a “Best for Under Fives Award” because the staff are wonderful with little kids who get down from the table and wander round the restaurant. Not run: wander. There are lovely ceramic mouldings on the walls, photographs of the city in India where the family who run the restaurant originate, a beautiful wooden elephant, fascinating brass plantholders: I have seen on more than one occasion a small child wandering from fascinating-thing to fascinating-thing, gazing in wonder, causing no trouble to anyone, and certainly much less distraction than if s/he were being compelled to stay in her seat and be bored while the adults finished their meal and talked. But there exist restaurants which would neither have had anything at child’s eye level to look at, nor would have had any patience with a child wandering around the room looking at interesting things while their parents talk over a meal.

The key problem with the mainstream culture in the US and to a lesser but still significant extent in the UK is that children are disliked and disregarded - there’s no thought of hosting the whole family, or that children can behave well when properly catered to.

Comment #315: Jesurgislac  on  02/24  at  02:24 PM

Purpleshoes @ 280:
I can tell you that if she’s planning to breastfeed, she’s setting herself up for trouble putting a newborn on a schedule because human women aren’t cows.

If you don’t milk cows when they need it, their milk production goes down.  Just saying.

Comment #316: helen w. h.  on  02/24  at  02:37 PM

helen w. h: okay, the impression I got from the two textbooks on breastfeeding in humans I just read (given that I know NOTHING about cows except what they said) is that because calfs are born much more active than babies, they need a greater volume of milk, and thus the udder does contain cisterns to store milk. Thus there’s (to my impression) some give and take in which cows can store up milk for a certain period of time and redispense it, while human women have no storage capacity at all besides a bit of engorgement and some duct-widening behind the nipple. So if a baby misses a feeding, the milk that would have been there at that feeding is some combination of reabsorbed or never produced in the first place? But yes, cows will experience apoptosis eventually too, presumably?

I am studying this right now and it’s a topic of nerdery for me, so.

Comment #317: purpleshoes  on  02/24  at  02:55 PM

charles—when you have kids, you sign up to adjust your kids to society. That’s your fucking job. If your kid is rip-tearing around a nice restaurant and risking knocking over tables, then yes, you absolutely SIGNED UP for that chore of making sure your kid isn’t a holy terror.  Whether or not you spank your kids as a means of getting them to behave is your business, but if it’s not effective, then you need to try something else. If your kid is blasting around the restaurant and you’re “methods” of non-physical punishment aren’t working, you have two choices: you either step up and correct your child, or you pay and leave. MightyPonyGirl
But you might stife their creative juices! The rest of us (including parents who paid for a babysitter so they could enjoy a night out) have to just put up with it, because the rules of good behavior don’t apply to you or your bratty children. I had my meal ruined by a screeching baby. I think it was the waitresses grandbrat, she knew I was pissed and did nothing. It is a treat for me to eat out, and I had my meal spoiled because of it. I left her a shitty tip, and complained to the owners, who didn’t do a thing.

Comment #318: pitbullgirl65  on  02/24  at  03:09 PM

Comment #313: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes on 02/24 at 11:32 AM

Thankyouthankyou for being a parent! “Parents” like Charles are selfish and rude and far too common nowadays.  My folks had consideration for people around them by either leaving the store/resterant/whatever or warning me (which worked very well ) when I acted like a brat. They didn’t try to be my friend, they acted like parents damn it, not entilement minded asshats who thought the world should just put up with my bad behavior.

Comment #319: pitbullgirl65  on  02/24  at  03:24 PM

Cows have capacity for greater than humans so as to feed their calves on the calves schedules.  Calves eat much more than human babies.  Thje effects actually are pretty much identical, except that humans have selectively bred cows to stand less frequent and more thorough evacuations.  Most cows still need to be milked on a regular schedule: twice 12 hours apart daily was typical for my in-laws family dairy, larger comercial dairies have used either 12 hour or 8 hour offsets.  If cows do not get milked when they should, it is physically painful, causes a drop in production and leaves them more susceptial to diseases and infection (e.g. mastitus).
The Indian restaurant described is an appropriate place to take a child out to eat because they made it so.  That’s fine; they have a niche market they can exploit.A busy standard restaurant, expecially those where wine is served, is not.  I am just as annoyed at loudmouths at the theater as by wild kids (if not more so), but management will remove those folks if you complain usually.  Ditto drunks stambing into the tables of other patrons so that they have to grab for their glassware, waitstaff have to dodge their careening, etc.
Kids? 
If you have them, it is your responsibility to know them well enough to only take them to places they can handle at their stage of development.  If you take them someplace they can’t handle and you are willing to allow them to be terrors rather than restrain and correct them (by whatever means) or remove them, you are a lazy parent.  You are also causing them harm by making them think people don’t like them, failing to teach them how to act appropriately, and not setting boundries.
Taking children to inappropriate places and then not either concluding the needed activity asap and removing them is a selfish thing and feeds an anti-child bias in society.  Most 2 year olds do not belong at sitdown restaurants.  Most 5 year olds do not belong at fancy restaurants with wine, linen and candles.  Parents who try to take them there and keep them there?  Labeling them lazy idiots is too kind.
Yes I have children.  Yes, we used the graduated approach: McDs level, sliding scale of class restaurants for breakfast or brunch (with distracting quiet activities they enjoyed brought with us, not expected to be provided; brief walks around lobbies, seating areas, to the restrooms multiple times for times sitting just wasn’t possible; and many quick endings, most waitstaff is quite helopful and understanding if you flag them down and ask for a check quickly). 
As someone above said: Parents, DO NOT skimp the tip, no matter what.  Even if your child was an angel, they are likely leaving more of a mess than your average dinner and you are more likely to be recognised and welcomed the next time, no matter what the circumstances.

Comment #320: helen w. h.  on  02/24  at  03:48 PM

I suspect that George Bernard Shaw had no personal experience of receiving a beating in anger as a child - but given the era in which he lived, the odds are high that he had either experienced or witnessed a cold-blooded disciplinary beating at school.

He was the child of an alcoholic father and a mother who by Shaw’s account wasn’t teh Worlds’ Greatest Mom, and his own account is most revealing:

He harbored a lifelong animosity toward schools and teachers, saying: “Schools and schoolmasters, as we have them today, are not popular as places of education and teachers, but rather prisons and turnkeys in which children are kept to prevent them disturbing and chaperoning their parents”
.............................................................................................

Later, he painstakingly detailed the reasons for his aversion to formal education in his Treatise on Parents and Children.[4] In brief, he considered the standardized curricula useless, deadening to the spirit and stifling to the intellect. He particularly deplored the use of corporal punishment, which was prevalent in his time.

George Bernard Shaw Education

My experience with corporal punishment is that even if it isn’t very often used, or discontinuted at an early age, there’s the legacy of a paralyzing fear when a parent gets angry that doesn’t add to ones’ spiritual development.  I can see how it could set a pattern that could end up in relationships down the line that aren’t sustaining, which is a better metric than ‘healthy’, IMHO.

It also doesn’t work when you have someone like my brother, who would be so mad(this is someone who’s 8 years old, folks) when Dad threatened him that he’d stand his ground and pee in his pants from the sheer fear he felt, so hitting him was something that wouldn’t have improved this situation.

The necessity of a slap in the face

Comment #321: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/24  at  03:52 PM

Please continue to tell me to keep my kid silent, invisible, and preferably with others of his kind.  Point made, I guess.

Comment #322: charles w  on  02/24  at  04:13 PM

helen: The Indian restaurant described is an appropriate place to take a child out to eat because they made it so.  That’s fine; they have a niche market they can exploit.

Absolutely: but there’s nothing to stop any restaurant from being an appropriate place for guests of all ages, providing the cultural values regard parents of small children not as a “niche market” but just as part of their normal clientele.

The anti-child bias in society is what makes many restaurants inappropriate places for children - not the other way about.

If you have them, it is your responsibility to know them well enough to only take them to places they can handle at their stage of development.

The problem is, that a culture which regards children as a niche market rather than a normal and included part of life, doesn’t allow for all that many different places that children can “handle”.

Comment #323: Jesurgislac  on  02/24  at  04:43 PM

that’s just because they hate children and want them confined to their houses outside of school until they are 12 years old and they grow out of it.

Please continue to tell me to keep my kid silent, invisible, and preferably with others of his kind.

We aim to please here at pandagon.net…............

Comment #324: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/24  at  04:45 PM

I don’t understand all this kid hating either—no, the parents shouldn’t let them do dangerous things, but they also shouldn’t all be expected to sit down quietly.  Some of the commentary is really smacking of children should be seen and not heard.  Being (somewhat) noisy and (often, very) active is part of being a kid.  They aren’t being bad, inappropriate, or disruptive.  They’re processing the world in their way, and they are a large part of the population.  I remember when my nieces were young, how isolating it was for my sister—she was always worried about being disruptive, and when she would go out, it would be to off-peak hours or to louder places.  Being a parent can be very stressful and isolating, and I think we should cut them and their charges, some slack. 

Any of the people who are complaining about noisy kids—were you noisy kids yourself?

Comment #325: Ismone  on  02/24  at  05:17 PM

Any of the people who are complaining about noisy kids—were you noisy kids yourself?

No, but I could be loud because of my deaf ear where I didn’t realize my volume was already turned up to 11 sometimes.

Yah know what?  Go to any Chinese restaurant in any major city which has a large Chinese population on the weekend, and what will you see?

Chinese families of all ages, having a meal without the children running around from table to table or bothering others, but still managing to enjoy themselves at the same time.

Do they get loud?  No louder than their adult relatives, who themselves use volume to emphasize that they’re saying at time, especially in Chinese, as the words are fixed as to tone and pronounciation, unlike other languages where they can be variables.

Since Chinese love to talk during meals, it might be a bit noisier than your average steakhouse, but not overwhelmingly so. grin

Are they a bit energetic?  Yes, but without bothering others.  Even the infants usually are quite because they’ve had a nap or been otherwise attended to beforehand.

But, hey, what do I know, I’ve only eaten in Chinese restaurants for some 40-odd years, and of course Chinese people are notorious child-haters…........

Comment #326: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/24  at  05:48 PM

Any of the people who are complaining about noisy kids—were you noisy kids yourself?

I was a holy terror in restaurants.  I would run to the server’s station and start flinging silverware around.  That’s why my parents didn’t take me to restaurants until I was old enough to sit down for more than 10 minutes at a stretch.

And you know what they did if I did get restless?  They stood up and walked around with me, or they took me out of the restaurant until I calmed down.  They didn’t leave me screaming in my high chair and ignore me.

It’s funny that people who are good parents and try to prevent their children from tipping wine glasses into strangers’ laps are the bad guys here, and parents who let their kids do whatever they want in public are heroes to be emulated. 

This is why my college had to start offering Etiquette Dinners to its students—kids were coming to college who literally had no idea that certain table manners are required if you want to eat with business colleagues because their middle- and upper-middle-class parents wanted them to be “free” and not be forced into silly rituals like not eating with their mouths open.

Comment #327: Mnemosyne  on  02/24  at  05:52 PM

This is why my college had to start offering Etiquette Dinners to its students—kids were coming to college who literally had no idea that certain table manners are required if you want to eat with business colleagues because their middle- and upper-middle-class parents wanted them to be “free” and not be forced into silly rituals like not eating with their mouths open.

One of the ways in which little kids start learning that certain table manners are required in formal situations is to take them into formal situations - such as fancy restaurants - and require of them better behavior than is allowed at home. 

One of the ways to ensure that kids coming to college have literally no idea of table manners is to set up a culture in which it’s considered completely inappropriate for kids to eat at good restaurants.

Kids learn fastest by positive reinforcement of good behavior. A five-year-old who goes to a nice restaurant, eats their dinner without spilling more than can reasonably be avoided on the table, wipes their hands when they get down, wanders quietly around the restaurant and returns quietly to their parents table for questions and/or dessert (and “quiet” doesn’t mean “soundless”) - is behaving well, and if this good behavior is rewarded by the approving looks, smiles, and positive comments from waitstaff and other diners, as well as delicious food, is much more likely to associate good behavior with fancy restaurants. But for this you need a cultural agreement that it’s normal to take small children to good restaurants, and normal for small children not to be glared at for existing. It works in child-positive cultures.

Comment #328: Jesurgislac  on  02/24  at  06:06 PM

Dark Avenger,

Way to stereotype.  Those well-behaved Chinese restaurant children.  Growing up in a largely immigrant area, I can tell you, a lot of strict parents are old country—whether Chinese or otherwise.  (Not to say that there aren’t strict and abusive American-grown parents, too.)  And a lot of strict parents of well behaved children beat those children.  I know this because I grew up with kids, some of whom were even Chinese, but who were both very compliant and victims of pretty severe child abuse. 

Mnemosyne,

I didn’t defend letting kids do anything dangerous.  But I don’t think they have to sit quietly and never move around, just like adults, in order to be let out.  So nice straw man there.

Comment #329: Ismone  on  02/24  at  06:15 PM

Some of the commentary is really smacking of children should be seen and not heard.

Well, as an adult individual who sometimes likes to participate in the public forum, I, too, should occasionally be “seen and not heard.” Adults are generally better at knowing when a situation requires them to be quiet (movie theater, church, some restaurants, boring meeting, delicate surgeries, ninja missions, whatever) than kids are and with some exceptions they can remain quiet as appropriate. Kids aren’t very good at that, so it’s more likely that they will not voluntarily be “not heard” when necessary.

It doesn’t mean you hate kids to suggest that hearing their voices is not always appropriate, it just means sometimes everyone in a room is being asked to be quiet or shut up completely, and if a parent doesn’t want to make their kids do that then they shouldn’t bring them. If a certain standard is being held for adults and that standard is way too high to expect kids to live up to, then maybe that should be an adult space—it’s not fair to hold kids to an unreasonable standard but neither is it fair to completely ignore the standards of a situation just because you want to cram some kids into the mix. A fancy restaurant is not the only teachable moment you will ever have with your children.

Comment #330: Bagelsan  on  02/24  at  06:15 PM

“in a society where having children is considered the norm”

Well, it would have to be the norm, wouldn’t it? Otherwise there would shortly be no society at all. Sorry, but there should be some social pressure to have children. They are needed for the public good, even if you personally elect not to contribute to society by producing them.

(None of this takes away from it being completely inappropriate for anyone to take a child under seven to a fancy restaurant or to any film not specifically intended for small children.)

Comment #331: wapsie  on  02/24  at  06:30 PM

One of the ways in which little kids start learning that certain table manners are required in formal situations is to take them into formal situations - such as fancy restaurants - and require of them better behavior than is allowed at home.

Or you could just require decent behavior at home. When my sisters and I were little we would practice our good “Disneyland manners” (yes, I know, but at that age we thought it was pretty much the nicest, fanciest place in the world. :p) My Dad told us that once we all behaved somewhat decently at dinner (using utensils, saying please and thank you, not yelling or fighting) we could go to Disneyland, and he occasionally would remind us of this goal if we backslid too much. And eventually we went to Disneyland, having proven we were mature enough to handle it. And when we got back we started working on our “Vancouver (Canada) manners” so that when we were mature enough and able to behave politely we could go for vacation and stay in a nice hotel and have high tea. (By the time we graduated to “Hawaii manners” we were certainly old enough not to fall for it anymore, but then again he had promised *Hawaii* so we sucked it up and used knives to push our food onto our forks and everything. A little bit of this training even stuck through college!)

You don’t have to throw a toddler into a no-tux-no-tie-no-service restaurant to practice manners. Start small and give the kid something to work towards. (Maybe not Disneyland; I don’t hate you as a person, and I wouldn’t necessarily wish that on you. :D)

Comment #332: Bagelsan  on  02/24  at  06:38 PM

Sorry, but there should be some social pressure to <strike>have children</strike> make better eldercare robots. They are needed for the public good, even if you personally elect not to contribute to society by producing them.

Fixed that for ya!

Comment #333: Bagelsan  on  02/24  at  06:40 PM

I didn’t defend letting kids do anything dangerous.  But I don’t think they have to sit quietly and never move around, just like adults, in order to be let out.  So nice straw man there.

It’s just as much of a straw man as the people who keep insisting that not wanting kids to run wild in a restaurant is the same thing as saying “children should be seen and not heard.”

There are appropriate places for children and inappropriate places and, if the parents are doing their job, the number of appropriate places will grow as the child gets older.  A restaurant that’s inappropriate to take a 3-year-old to may well be appropriate when that same child is a 10-year-old if you’ve taught him/her how to act in public.

Sorry, but I can’t get on the “any behavior by a child is appropriate in any setting” bandwagon.  I’m really sick of feeling like I have to keep an eye on other people’s children in public because their parents are too busy talking to their friends to notice that their wandering toddler has gotten hold of the coffee pot.

Comment #334: Mnemosyne  on  02/24  at  06:50 PM

Mnemosyne,

I think the problem is that we are defining making noise at restaurants as being inappropriate when children engage in it.  Defining appropriate so that it limits children from being in a lot of public places (where adults are often obnoxious, too) which kind of sucks for children.  People are suggesting that they should be just as quiet and stationary as adults.  Well, that’s not how children are, and I don’t think that means they should be barred from most public places.  There is a big difference between throwing things/hurting people and wandering/making more noise than “nice” adults. 

BTW, the most disruptive experience I had in a restaurant was when the couple at the table next to my husband and I had a spat over her saying she was going to order a salad and eat some of her husband’s steak after he basically fat-shamed her into not ordering one herself, nevermind that he was bigger than she was, and he through enough of a fit that he had to go for a walk to ‘calm himself’ which really meant smoke, which his wife knew, even though he’d said that he had quit.  And we heard all of it, despite our attempts to converse on other subjects and drown them out.  There’s no way we could have gotten them thrown out.

Comment #335: Ismone  on  02/24  at  07:06 PM

Have you tried a babywrap?  It’s a really long strip of cloth that you can wrap around yourself and carry your child in the front or back, and since it’s wrapped around your waist and both shoulders, it distributes the weight.  Bigger kids ride piggyback, but secure and you can have your hands free while carrying them.

I’ve used a Moby Wrap and the Ergo over the course of his life. I gave up on the Moby when he was 28ish lbs, and while I hauled him up and down a couple of mountains in the Ergo last summer at about 34lbs, his current 38lbs was the death of my back in about 15 minutes.  The Ergo’s max recommended is 40lbs, so we did get fair use out of it.

My comments on leashes was more directed to Stubbles and her idea of conversing with the child before putting on the leash. Even 3.5 year olds live in a very different brainspace than we adults do. They may have reasonings for why they do things—but even if they’re verbal enough to explain those reasonings to us, the reasonings generally make no damn sense.

Comment #336: hp  on  02/24  at  07:13 PM

Growing up in a largely immigrant area, I can tell you, a lot of strict parents are old country—whether Chinese or otherwise.  (Not to say that there aren’t strict and abusive American-grown parents, too.) And a lot of strict parents of well behaved children beat those children.  I know this because I grew up with kids, some of whom were even Chinese, but who were both very compliant and victims of pretty severe child abuse.

Except that I come from a Chinese middle-class family on my mothers side which didn’t engage in abuse, as a matter of fact, my great-great-grandfather kept his servants from binding my great-grandmothers’ feet, as was the custom in the last part of the 19th Century, so that won’t wash.

Are you saying that the only way that children can be forced to behave in restaurants is by child abuse?

Comment #337: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/24  at  07:58 PM

Mnemosyne: It’s just as much of a straw man as the people who keep insisting that not wanting kids to run wild in a restaurant is the same thing as saying “children should be seen and not heard.”

Given that in both the paragraph immediately following (A restaurant that’s inappropriate to take a 3-year-old to and Sorry, but I can’t get on the “any behavior by a child is appropriate in any setting” bandwagon.) your definition of “running wild” appears to be “present in the room”, actually I’d say it’s a bit more stringent than that: you think children should be neither seen nor heard, because they shouldn’t be there.

We can agree that parents need to keep an eye on their children. But that doesn’t mean they have to conform to the child-hating expectations of keeping children out of the way of adults. If you think it’s bad that teenagers show up at college with no idea of how to behave in public, do your bit for the general good and smile approvingly at a child in a fancy restaurant who isn’t doing a bleeding thing to annoy you except be there.

Comment #338: Jesurgislac  on  02/24  at  08:03 PM

Bagelsen: You don’t have to throw a toddler into a no-tux-no-tie-no-service restaurant to practice manners.

No, you don’t. But the principle that Mnemosyne is complaining about, that kids are showing up at college with no idea of different manners for different situatons, is very likely rooted in the plain fact that you need to take your kids to different situations and make clear your expectations in advance, for them to understand that family dinner at home allows one kind of behavior, eating out in a fancy restaurant requires another. I wouldn’t take a toddler to a no-tux-no-tie-no-service restaurant because the food is probably terrible (at least, from a toddler’s point of view) and the waitstaff will probably be hostile. But I would take - and I have - a four-year-old to a nice restaurant if I wanted to eat there myself, making clear in advance that there are specific ways you have to behave in this place in return for specific and immediate rewards. The long-term reward of “someday we’ll go to Disneyland” may work for an older child, but a four-year-old deserves an immediate reward for good behavior now.

Comment #339: Jesurgislac  on  02/24  at  08:15 PM

Are you saying that the only way that children can be forced to behave in restaurants is by child abuse?

Well, considering that some people seem to consider “forcing kids to behave” to be child abuse (or at least a sign you hate children)... 9.9

Re. restaurants: if your kid hates sitting still and modulating their voice? Don’t take them to a place where half the point is to sit still and modulate your voice. Or at least don’t act like it’s some sort of draconian extreme that other people value stillness and low voices at certain times, and prefer that this be respected.

Comment #340: Bagelsan  on  02/24  at  08:23 PM

OMG LauraSG, can i just ask you, is your thesis available online anywhere? I was a sociology major and i have a serious interest in religion in America, and i would loveloveLOVE to read it.

Comment #341: Adrienne L. Travis  on  02/24  at  08:25 PM

No Dark Avenger, I’m saying be careful if you assume that well-behaved children = good parents.  Well-behaved children can be the product of severe abuse.  I’ve known some.  And some of them have been Chinese.

Comment #342: Ismone  on  02/24  at  08:25 PM

Where are children welcome? Chain restaurants? The library, but only between the hours of 2 and 4? Parks, okay, and science museums, yes, to the exclusion of adults. I am trying to think here because I think we do suffer as a culture from a general lack of true public space. People in a movie don’t seem to be pissed off at the kid because the kid exists and is yelling as much as they are that they paid good money to be in this environment and they are now receiving a substandard product. Same with nice restaurants. I don’t think the same people would be upset that a kid was running and yelling at a park - I hope - though I have noticed a lot of people who don’t care for children (not necessarily here) don’t think people with horrible children need groceries too. I don’t know what they’re supposed to eat while learning the error of their ways.

The other thing that’s occurring to me here is that of course the first place where a child learns to sit at a table, eat with a fork, not smack their food, take part in the conversation, and excuse themselves politely shouldn’t be a restaurant, it should probably be in the home. Oh look, now we’re all mourning the loss of the family dinner table. I personally like family dinner tables, but it’s a weirdly retro thing for the Pandagon crowd to endorse.

Comment #343: purpleshoes  on  02/24  at  08:29 PM

Well, considering that some people seem to consider “forcing kids to behave” to be child abuse (or at least a sign you hate children)… 9.9

Pretty much.  We seem to moved from “beating your child to death for mispronouncing a word is child abuse” to “making your child sit still in a restaurant and removing them from the situation if they can’t is child abuse.”

Can we define the word “abuse” down any further here?  Because apparently not wanting to have a strange toddler pull the tablecloth off my table while I’m trying to eat dinner in a restaurant is morally equivalent to me wanting to have the parents beat the child to death.

Comment #344: Mnemosyne  on  02/24  at  09:04 PM

But the principle that Mnemosyne is complaining about, that kids are showing up at college with no idea of different manners for different situatons, is very likely rooted in the plain fact that you need to take your kids to different situations and make clear your expectations in advance, for them to understand that family dinner at home allows one kind of behavior, eating out in a fancy restaurant requires another.

And this has to start when they’re *four*? You can’t work your way up at all as they get older? It’s not like the kid’ll turn 5 and get shipped off to impress people at functions all of a sudden. You can practice chewing without spitting at people at home, or at Chucky Cheese, and then work your way up to nicer places as the kid’s skill set increases. And if you’re in the kind of financial situation where you see being able to eat at a fancy restaurant as a *right* then I’ll bet you can afford to hire a babysitter for 2 hours and go have some “you” time at said restaurant until your kid is old enough to not be bored out of hir skull by sitting still-ish for 20 minutes at a stretch. And then you can start demanding they do so.

Maybe I was a particularly uncultured child, but I don’t really think a 4-year-old is going to be deprived by not going out to nice restaurants. The best immediate reward for good behavior at a fancy dinner for kids is always to let the poor bastards escape the damn place as soon as possible! Other than you making a point to all the people around you I’m not sure what taking a little kid to a restaurant is supposed to accomplish; they aren’t going to remember age 4 when they’re in college and talking with their mouths full. :p

Comment #345: Bagelsan  on  02/24  at  09:15 PM

Well-behaved children can be the product of severe abuse.  I’ve known some.  And some of them have been Chinese.

Yes, but judging a culture from what the relatively unsophisticated immigrant population does isn’t fair, that would be like my judging Caucasoid types from the parenting failures on my fathers’s side of the family, which, no surprise, believed in corporal punishment.

I hope - though I have noticed a lot of people who don’t care for children (not necessarily here) don’t think people with horrible children need groceries too. I don’t know what they’re supposed to eat while learning the error of their ways.

Heh, Professor Avenger used to bring us kids for a weekly expedition where we got a goodie and mom got some time without us.

If I don’t want to deal with children at the grocery store, I just shop when they’re not likely to be around as in early morning, late evening,  etc.

Comment #346: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/24  at  09:45 PM

Bagelsen: Don’t take them to a place where half the point is to sit still and modulate your voice

That would be the cinema. Or the theatre, except for a pantomine.

Half the point of a restaurant is to eat delicious food.

The other half is to enjoy your food with pleasant company.

It is entirely allowed for an adult at a restaurant, to get up and walk round and look at the room: it is entirely allowed for an adult to talk without anyone demanding they “modulate their voice”.

And this has to start when they’re *four*?

Yes? Why not?

nd if you’re in the kind of financial situation where you see being able to eat at a fancy restaurant as a *right* then I’ll bet you can afford to hire a babysitter for 2 hours and go have some “you” time at said restaurant until your kid is old enough to not be bored out of hir skull by sitting still-ish for 20 minutes at a stretch. And then you can start demanding they do so.

Missing the point again! If you think of children as a distinct sub-class that ought not to be allowed out till they’re “old enough” - whenever that is - at which point Mnemosyne will start complaining that they don;t know how to behave in public! - then obviously, if the parents go out to dinner, they ought to pay a babysitter. If you think of children as an ordinary and normal part of life, then why should they be kept away in isolation because some people are instantly prepared to assume the worst of them?


purpleshoes: Where are children welcome? Chain restaurants?

Evidently, any restaurant where Mnemosyne is not, since she appears to think that the presence of a child in a restaurant inevitably means that she will have to deal with that child pulling the table-cloth off her table as she tries to eat dinner.

Comment #347: Jesurgislac  on  02/24  at  11:14 PM

Evidently, any restaurant where Mnemosyne is not, since she appears to think that the presence of a child in a restaurant inevitably means that she will have to deal with that child pulling the table-cloth off her table as she tries to eat dinner.

Yes, that’s what I’ve been saying.  You got it exactly.
/eyeroll

Comment #348: Mnemosyne  on  02/25  at  12:00 AM

The anti-child bias in society is what makes many restaurants inappropriate places for children - not the other way about.

No, the fact that restaurants can be incredibly unsafe for a child up wandering about is why letting your child wander in a restaurant is inappropriate.

I worked as a server for years, and I can promise you your child is in danger wandering around most full service restaurants. Servers are carrying very heavy trays full of hot food, or trays full of glasses full of beverages. We carry these over our heads or on our shoulders, and we look straight ahead as we walk because we have to to keep our balance. We move fast because patrons complain if their food takes too long or isn’t still piping hot. We run multiple tables at a time. We can’t see your small child underfoot because we can’t easily look down, so unless your child is tall enough to be in our sightline s/he is in danger. Incidentally, you’re also in danger if you have your chair out in the middle of a walkway, or if you back up without looking.

Restaurants are full of danger. The restaurants I worked at were family restaurants, but even there the children were expected to be seated. We give out crayons and coloring pages so they won’t get bored, and if they’re super hungry we can often rush their food ahead of the full order, or bring them crackers. We don’t hate your kids, but letting them wander puts them, the servers, and other patrons in danger.

Comment #349: jessilikewhoa  on  02/25  at  12:14 AM

Leashes are rightfully considered frustration and not punishment.

Yes. Exactly.

Mighty Ponygirl’s upthread comparison between spanking and falling on your ass because you’re on a leash is just plain silly. For one thing, if you fall because you’re on a leash, and your guardian doesn’t abruptly jerk you around, then your movement is the immediate cause of any pain. Yeah, your guardian put the leash on you, but you subsequently have to move to get hurt. In spanking, on the other hand, there’s no intervening cause between your guardian’s hand hitting you and your pain.

Aside from which, violence is different from falling because you’re restrained.  Someone else is making the deliberate choice to hurt you. They’re not making a choice to restrain you which then unintentionally results in you getting hurt.

And being struck has a different physical and psychological impact, especially if you’re struck on a private area of the body. Basically every study done on spanking supports this. 

“Swatting” may be harmless but it absolutely shouldn’t be encouraged—and it is still different from spanking, which is repeatedly striking a child’s ass. And there’s no reason to thinking that “swatting” is even necessary, since plenty of parents get along just fine without it.

The whole “oh, you’ll understand spanking is necessary if YOU’RE ever a parent!” makes no sense, because there’s no reason to think parents know better about this kind of thing than non-parents. You don’t have to study or observe or do empirical research to become a parent. You just have to fuck. And after fucking, you don’t have to learn from your mistakes, or be smart about figuring out what your mistakes are. You can just keep making them, and unless you’re egregiously abusive, nothing and no one will make you stop.

Comment #350: LR  on  02/25  at  01:18 AM

If your kid is blasting around the restaurant and you’re “methods” of non-physical punishment aren’t working, you have two choices: you either step up and correct your child, or you pay and leave.

And what if your “methods” of physical punishment aren’t working?

The underlying assumption that spanking is more effective than non-physical punishment is foolish, and based on the idea that any problem can be neatly made to disappear with the correct application of violence.

Comment #351: LR  on  02/25  at  01:21 AM

The use of punishers to train children does NOT make them “better” or more manageable children. They’re at higher risk for drug use, alcohol use, and risky behaviors. They fight more.  They misbehave more in school. They’re more aggressive as they get older. They’re at much higher risk of suicide.  They’re more likely to get into criminal trouble.
Comment #312: Dawn on 02/24 at 11:32 AM

Uh, NO, Dawn.  There’s an article WAAAAAAY up thread that addresses thism, and Gunnoe shows that spanking children ( a punishment you would term it) simply doesn’t have the results you suggest.

Comment #352: phylosopher  on  02/25  at  01:51 AM

Yes I have children.  Yes, we used the graduated approach: McDs level, sliding scale of class restaurants for breakfast or brunch (with distracting quiet activities they enjoyed brought with us, not expected to be provided; brief walks around lobbies, seating areas, to the restrooms multiple times for times sitting just wasn’t possible; and many quick endings, most waitstaff is quite helopful and understanding if you flag them down and ask for a check quickly).
As someone above said: Parents, DO NOT skimp the tip, no matter what.  Even if your child was an angel, they are likely leaving more of a mess than your average dinner and you are more likely to be recognised and welcomed the next time, no matter what the circumstances.
Comment #320: helen w. h.  on 02/24 at 01:48 PM

Helen, I know it was just an example, but really, fast food isn’t the answer-for lots of reasons.  There is usually some “family” restaurant in the ‘burbs, or the neighborhood place in the city where it is locals who usually know each other and their kids.  there’s a kids menu, crayon placemat, etc.  These are the places kids learn - and if you go either earlier or later, the wait staff is often phenom - I’ve had bored waitress color with my kid, a piano player sit a kid on his lap, and the owner of a restaurant bring out free kiddie cocktails and teach the kid Greek - yes it was always a 25% tip - much cheaper than a baby sitter.  As a result, my kids willingly eat lots of non-kid fare - tonight the middle schooler asked for scallops (at restaurants they’ve sampled saganaki, menudo, octopus, oysters, etc.  I know college students who freak if they need to eat anythign other than a burger.  Not good when one is trying to study abroad.

Comment #353: phylosopher  on  02/25  at  02:04 AM

I’m just not a very strong person, and those damn baby bjorns always hurt, even when carrying a 10# infant.  The backpacks were so heavy even without a child in them I didn’t see the point.  Mostly I make the kids walk, though we do have a stroller for occasional use, like going to the zoo.  I’m glad they’re bigger, and I’m so looking forward to the end of the Decade of Diapers.

Seriously, childfree, most children wear diapers for 3 years.  It never gets fun.
Comment #311: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes on 02/24 at 11:18 AM

My spouse and I learned this one from a friend of our as the kids got older, and we started developing what someone above called “nursemaid’s elbow.”  Have the kid holds a corner of your shirt or jacket - that becomes their job.  It may mean changing your wardrobe for a bit, but it keeps your hands free and prevents the permanent list to hold their hand.  It worked for us, especially when we were still carrying one and the other was walking.

Comment #354: phylosopher  on  02/25  at  02:08 AM

to purpleshoes@ #343

There are lots of in-between child friendly places where kids are welcome and they are great training grounds: Our Art Museum welcomes kids with programs for families every Sunday.  Our cultural center has classical concerts that cater to kids (we saw a percussion group last week.)  So does our symphony. So does my library have kids programs starting at 6 months.  These are great introductory ways to get kids used to the idea of sitting still and listening.  The programs are short, the musicians talk to the audience and explain things, etc.  Even short museum programs get kids used to the sit still for ten minutes thing.  Same thing for plays.  You don’t do King Lear at five, generally speaking.  But kid friendly plays, (even a short Midsummer,) sure.  Shakespeare at 8?  yes.  Ibsen at 10, NO.  then again, I had a hard time sitting through Iben at 40.

Comment #355: phylosopher  on  02/25  at  02:28 AM

Jesurgislac, not a big deal but my name is Bagelsan.

As for “why not” take a 4-year-old out to a fancy/non-child-friendly restaurant there have been *many* reasons given: they don’t enjoy it, they annoy other customers, they get underfoot of the wait staff, they make a mess. And I don’t think it really accomplishes anything a more casual dining atmosphere could not. Your child can learn to eat sushi and not shame hir family at college even without rigorous pre-kindergarten restaurant training.

Your insistence that children absolutely need to be in nice restaurants at age 4 sounds like the “think of the children!” cry, which almost inevitably comes up over an issue that the parents have a bee in their bonnet about ...but about which the kids themselves don’t give a shit. You clearly *want* to put children into restaurants but I’m not clear why they would want to be there, where they are not appreciated, there’s not much to do, they aren’t learning anything in particular except that adults are boring as hell, and where it’s not safe for them to run around.

Comment #356: Bagelsan  on  02/25  at  02:56 AM

Mnemosyne: Yes, that’s what I’ve been saying.  You got it exactly.

I don’t know why the “eyeroll”. Every single thing you’ve said about children in public says you don’t want them in the same room as you because your default assumption is that they will do horrible things / disturb you. The most recent example you gave was that if you were in the same restaurant as a child you would spend the entire time thinking the kid was going to pull your tablecloth off so you won’t enjoy your meal. Good Lord, Mnemosyne, you are a perfect example of the child-hating culture that wants kids out of sight that breeds the teenagers you don’t like either who don’t have any experience of eating with the grown-ups because they never have because of people like you!

Bagelsan: Jesurgislac, not a big deal but my name is Bagelsan.

Sorry!

As for “why not” take a 4-year-old out to a fancy/non-child-friendly restaurant there have been *many* reasons given: they don’t enjoy it, they annoy other customers, they get underfoot of the wait staff, they make a mess.

Well, you can’t take a child out to a non-child-friendly restaurant, but that’s because the restaurant is non-child-friendly, it has nothing to do with how fancy it is. The reasons given have all been very stupid ones - they’re presuming that the child won’t enjoy the experience, that the customers will all be like Mnemosyne, annoyed by a child’s mere presence in the same room, that the children will be unable to perceive the waitstaff or the waitstaff then, and ... well, yes, children tend to spill more than most adults do, but this is why restaurants normally clean tables between customers, because they are not allowed to turn adult customers back on the basis that they’re in the habit of spilling their food.

And I don’t think it really accomplishes anything a more casual dining atmosphere could not.

Define “casual”. At this point, we’re looking at any room that child-haters are not in! If the parents are in the habit of going to the restaurant, they should be able to take their children to it.

our insistence that children absolutely need to be in nice restaurants at age 4 sounds like the “think of the children!” cry, which almost inevitably comes up over an issue that the parents have a bee in their bonnet about

Except I’m not a parent. I’m an aunt and a former childminder, and yet I think we are a better culture when we accept children as a normal part of life. This appears to be anathema to many people on this thread - the idea that children and families are just accepted as belonging anywhere they have a legal right to be - and I’m not sure why. What causes the child-hating anti-family culture in the US?

The same justification, it should be noted, has been used to justify banning any other disadvantaged group from fancy restaurants. They won’t enjoy it: they’ll be a nuisance: their presence will annoy the proper patrons of the restaurant: they won’t know how to behave.

Comment #357: Jesurgislac  on  02/25  at  08:11 AM

If I remember my Human Growth and Development class correctly then there are three modes of parenting: authoritarian, authoritative and permissive.  Permissive allows the child to set their own rules and boundaries.  This style tends to turn out maladjusted children with no sense of boundaries, etc.  Authoritarian parents are these crazy Christian sorts.  Rules are set forth and punishments for breaking those rules are often severe.  The rules are never explained, but handed down as if from on high.  Authoritative parents involve children in the process of, explaining why rules and boundaries are necessary and consistently handing out punishments and rewards.  The latter tends to turn out the most well adjusted children.  Just thought I would add that.

Comment #358: electricgrendel  on  02/25  at  09:01 AM

Dark Avenger, just to be very clear, I was not stereotyping.  You made statements about Chinese restaurants and well-behaved children.  Because I did not want to make this all about Chinese children or immigrants, I tried to talk more broadly about children of abuse being well-behaved, and growing up around those children, and the fact that being Chinese is sadly not a protection from that abuse.  So when you say something like

“Yes, but judging a culture from what the relatively unsophisticated immigrant population does isn’t fair, that would be like my judging Caucasoid types from the parenting failures on my fathers’s side of the family, which, no surprise, believed in corporal punishment.” in your post 346, while quoting language from my post 342 which read in full:

“No Dark Avenger, I’m saying be careful if you assume that well-behaved children = good parents.  Well-behaved children can be the product of severe abuse.  I’ve known some.  And some of them have been Chinese.”

I don’t mean at all to suggest that Chinese children are more or less likely to suffer abuse—I really have no idea.  I hope that you don’t mean to suggest that “unsophisticated” (not sure what that means—poor? uneducated) parents are more likely to abuse either, because child abuse is a pretty clear constant.

I just really didn’t know how to address your stereotyped comment about kids in Chinese restaurants who were Chinese without pointing out that some of the very well-behaved victims of abuse I knew were also Chinese.

Comment #359: Ismone  on  02/25  at  03:20 PM

Mnemosyne,

When you wrote this, I don’t know who you were referring to:

Pretty much.  We seem to moved from “beating your child to death for mispronouncing a word is child abuse” to “making your child sit still in a restaurant and removing them from the situation if they can’t is child abuse.”

But I certainly never suggested that kind of parenting was child abuse.  So is this another straw man, or did someone in the thread actually suggest that?  Because I don’t see it.

-Ismone

Comment #360: Ismone  on  02/25  at  03:22 PM

for them to understand that family dinner at home allows one kind of behavior, eating out in a fancy restaurant requires another.

That may be true, but one does not necessarily need to get this practice at a fancy restaurant at a younger age to gain it.  My older aunts and uncles would often give me this sort of practice in their homes before which ended up serving me well when I went off to college at 17.  Once there, I was shocked at how many of my upper/upper-middle class college classmates who had far better/more opportunities for them to gain this practice at actual fancy restaurants were quite uncouth….with some to the point they didn’t think there was anything wrong with rudely critiquing the food generously provided by the dean emeritus…....and I tend to be quite skeptical of the concept of “good table manners”, especially in fancy elite restaurants/formal functions…  rolleyes

Amanda isn’t talking about having her evening ruined, RUINED I say! by the kid next to her blowing bubbles in his milk with his straw. She’s talking about a kid that is rip-tearing around a restaurant, underfoot of the waiters, knocking shit over.

While this attitude towards kids in “adult” settings like fancy restaurants is quite understandable, the level of anger in reaction is way out of proportion IMHO to that….especially when parenting is an arduous job in the best of times and it betrays a lack of humility/understanding that we were all once that “badly behaved” kid at some point in our lives…even if we choose to deny/downplay that fact.  Also, I’ve seen far more atrocious behavior in such settings from supposed adults who should damned well know better and who are much more deserving of this level of ire and condemnation than most of these families.  Personally, I’d save my wrath for those supposed adults who act worse than many children/toddlers I’ve encountered…:roll:

This extra attention, extra annoyance is because of the invasion. It’s specifically worse with a child because they are invading the space rather than just being one more annoyance of going out like cell phone yakkers, guys who wear too much Axe, and those slow women who take up the whole sidewalk.

Though I will admit to being mildly annoyed by kids screaming loudly or running amok to the point of posing a danger to themselves and others, I am surprised that there is far more anger towards these kids and their families than cell phone yakkers in similar settings. 

Personally, I get much more livid when I see cell phone yakkers yapping loudly away with abandon in inappropriate settings…..such as a university library, school classrooms when class is in session, movie theaters, and restaurants than kids acting like kids….even the ones who scream and run amok. 

Heck, I’ve actually glared at and told off classmates in post-undergrad summer courses at one university on the Charles River who seemed oblivious to the fact that it is not a good idea to first…set the cell to use loud ringtones and two….allow it to ring loudly several times/answering the call during a large lecture class and disturbing the instructor and other students.  Is it too much for ostensible adults to either shut their cell phones down for the duration of their time in such places or if that’s not possible…to set it on vibrate and if the call must be taken, to go outside to take the call in consideration of other patrons?!! More importantly, do we really need to be in touch every second of the day without realizing that we cannot always be because we are busy with some aspects of our lives and/or are in venues where that is highly inappropriate?!! rolleyes

That is IMHO….much more worthy of this level of outrage/wrath than kids who act up in fancypants restaurants. 

Except that I come from a Chinese middle-class family on my mothers side which didn’t engage in abuse, as a matter of fact, my great-great-grandfather kept his servants from binding my great-grandmothers’ feet, as was the custom in the last part of the 19th Century, so that won’t wash.

Umm….parental abuse crosses all race, class and educational backgrounds. 

It is not solely limited to the “unsophisticated Chinese immigrants” as you seem to imply.  In addition to research confirming this among people in general, I’ve known plenty of “unsophisticated Chinese immigrant” families who aren’t practitioners of authoritarian and/or abusive parenting and plenty of upper/middle-class Chinese families who do. 

Many of the latter were classmates at my undergrad or colleagues and worse….I’ve actually met some of their parents in person and could immediately tell they had that mentality from seeing their mannerisms, overhearing their supposed “secret” conversations in Mandarin, and could understand some of the cultural context clues…:roll:

Comment #361: exholt  on  02/25  at  06:39 PM

It is not solely limited to the “unsophisticated Chinese immigrants” as you seem to imply.

Well, unsophisticated morally, then.

I know of a case where a Chinese fellow worked at his mother’s restaurant when he was 12 years old until late at night on school nights. 

AFAIK, she never hit him, but I can imagine the lecture he would get about being ungrateful(she was able to get him over here from Taiwan) if he protested his working conditions. 

I’ve worked in a Chinese restaurant, so I know what he had to go through:  Like coal mining, with less black dust and rock, more light, and just as much sweat.

In addition to research confirming this among people in general, I’ve known plenty of “unsophisticated Chinese immigrant” families who aren’t practitioners of authoritarian and/or abusive parenting and plenty of upper/middle-class Chinese families who do.

And I’m sure that if they were upper-class in my great-greatgrands time, they’d have been binding their daughters’ feet when they were getting onto toddler age.

So your point is?

Everything that has been stated may be true, but it doesn’t negate my point that in Cantonese Chinese traditional culture, the kids don’t run around and behave inappropriately, and while some of them may have had that behavior beaten into them, I’m willing to bet garbage to doornails that the majority didn’t have that experience.

Many of the latter were classmates at my undergrad or colleagues and worse….I’ve actually met some of their parents in person and could immediately tell they had that mentality from seeing their mannerisms, overhearing their supposed “secret” conversations in Mandarin, and could understand some of the cultural context clues.

Well, I come from Cantonese/Shanghai city dwellers

There is, perhaps, a tendency to be the big strong bully in Mandarin culture, like the Mandarin-speaking professor who boasted to my class in Asian culture how his people would work out in the cold even to the point of developing blisters on the skin because of exposure to the wind and low temperature. 

We Cantonese types will work hard, but not crazy http://slicedbreadtwo.com/images/smileys/rolleyes.gif

Comment #362: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/25  at  09:10 PM

So there is strong cultural pressure for abusive behavior. There is also high stress. Being a parent is one of the most high-stress activities an adult can engage in. There is a proto-human who basically needs to be taught from scratch how to function in society and become a fully grown adult. One who will often be high-energy, high-maintainence, and provide few if any signs of encouragement and can easily end up dominating one’s life and sleep schedule and utterly ruin alone time and any schedule for destressing oneself. Now, mix in cultural messaging and the pendulum always looming of “doing it wrong” and “fucking up the child for life” and that’s a recipe for being on the very edge of sanity long before you’re also seeing every single errand you attempt become twice as hard and a giant struggle of wills. - cerberus

Great synopsis of the pressures of taking care of children. Even though they probably don’t mean it, aren’t morally culpable, etc., they can (some more than others) give every outward sign of being vindictive, manipulative, vile company whom you as their caregiver can’t just write out of your life as you would an adult who behaved the same way. What would I do with a 24yo who screamed throughout every meal, pestered me constantly, broke or ruined everything of mine they got their hands on, purposefully and repeatedly engaged in dangerous behavior, howled every time I was out in public with them, threw things on the floor constantly? Leave. If they didn’t stay the hell away from me, I’d file for a restraining order.

You cannot do this with a child you’re legally responsible for, even when you really, really want to. It’s important for people who don’t have children, like me, to recognize the titanic amount of unavoidable stress this causes. This should, hopefully, be a forum where people recognize that there are going to be days in a parent’s life where the intangible rewards of familial love are going to feel like very thin gruel in comparison to all the hell.

And saying, ‘oh, it’s a child, you have to understand,’ just no. If can feel exactly like another adult doing it, precisely because they really are a whole other person. It takes deliberate retraining of pretty much all your basic responses because they’ll do things to you that, if any adult did them to you, almost anyone would regard as abuse. We call them by a different term like they’re another species, but they aren’t. And they’re ignorant, yes, but more intelligent as a toddler than an adult monkey, while lacking the same kind of self-preservation instincts. They’re willful, they have real personalities from very early on that you can neither predict nor alter with the wave of a hand, and can cause ridiculous amounts of damage to the people and things around them.

Children do need to be taught to behave in a way that will allow other people to tolerate and, shock, enjoy their presence. They can sometimes learn this fairly early. But as someone said upthread, being uncontrollable brats will exclude children from a wide range of experiences that will be beneficial to them in the long run. It is okay if they aren’t always playing, always in a squishy, multi-colored, child-friendly environment, always acting like they’re outside in the park.

Letting your kids act up at all times without regard to others isn’t a favor to them. It makes people hate them, and you, and it cuts all of you out of warm interactions with others that positively contribute to their development. Letting your kids throw food all over the place when they’re at home well past toddlerhood means they’re going to do that wherever you go, and your whole family isn’t going to get invited back to people’s houses, so they’ll have less opportunity to make friends and, this is fairly key, *so will you*.

Isolation is provably bad for people and so, without condoning abuse, I’d say preventing children from isolating themselves and their families is a positive goal. People who dislike children in public spaces can tilt into pushing for conditions that isolate (usually female) parents with tiny people that act exactly like abusive partners, just as people who can’t manage to rein in crazy behavior in children feed this negative spiral from the other end.

Comment #363: Natasha Chart  on  02/26  at  04:18 PM

Also, all that said, I’m very convinced by Jeremy Rifkin’s argument in The Empathic Civilization that people do start out hardwired for empathy and desiring socialization, even if their capacity to relate to others, and the number of people to whom they begin to relate at first, is very small. We are not bears. He cites research in his book indicating that the children who were generally best off without immediate parental presence are those raised with secure attachment parenting styles, while harsher parenting behaviors intended to avert ‘clinginess’ and enforce strict punishment at earlier ages simply led to more fearful, more yowling children. But of course, attachment parenting takes a hell of a lot of somebody’s time and that time is not only rarely rewarded, but often ends up being isolating for the parent, back to square one.

I’m also convinced that most spanking is bad because of recent research indicating that corporal punishment lowers children’s IQs, with the largest effects being seen when it’s continued into the teen years. That shouldn’t be surprising, for the same reason it doesn’t surprise me that domestic violence has a negative effect on the functional intelligence of adult victims of abuse.

Having been spanked a lot as a child by a mother who used a belt or wooden spoon, I’d have to say it was a big part of why I moved far away and rarely see her, though it didn’t have that effect on my sisters. My dad died when I was little, and of my three strongest memories of him, two involve spankings, which is regrettable. My parents believed about the same kinds of things that the people who beat this little girl to death believed, though their particular cult is, imo, less extreme.

I have a complicated opinion of being raised this way. Mostly I hated it, and often them. But I was also able to have adult-type experiences, in terms of conversations and being allowed to go places, that I wouldn’t have had as a less well-behaved young person. As a younger adult, the ways they taught me to behave, while having their downsides, sometimes helped my blue-collar, high school educated self get into situations that eventually allowed me to get a college degree and seem like a respectable, middle class professional.

Though because the downsides included starting off in life with no self-esteem, not just because of the spankings but because the goal of their parenting was to turn me into a completely obedient automaton, it made me an easy mark for abusers until I was able to sort out in my mind clear categories of abusive behavior that I must never tolerate nor regard as signs of affection. So I obviously couldn’t advocate raising kids like my parents did, though I also don’t regard an occasional swat on the butt in extreme circumstances (some kids are really good at generating extreme circumstances) as the same thing as a lifestyle of controlling, abusive parenting of which, I guarantee you, any beatings are only part of the story of soul-crushing abuse.

A friend of mine, who has two grown children of her own, convinced me to watch Supernanny, as evidence that you can teach children to behave without beating them. It seems possible, but hard. Not the sort of tactics a person’s going to necessarily figure out on their own, nor do the same tactics work for every child. It was truly alarming to me watching one woman on the show whose abusive upbringing kept her from exerting any effective discipline, while her children all around her were acting like abusive little monsters, and I have to think, a lot of people would be at their wits end in a situation like that.

So, after all that rambling, the only conclusion I have to offer is that if we want people to parent without corporal punishment, and want to innoculate people from the seductive promises of peace in the household offered by violent sociopaths like the Pearls, two things probably need to happen: One, there needs to be more empathetic recognition that parenthood is extremely hard, good parenthood doubly so, and that it’s real, honest-to-goodness work. Two, there should probably be much more support for parents in terms of figuring out appropriate techniques for their unique circumstances, so they can have happy homes, rich social lives, and children who’ll be welcome wherever they go.

Comment #364: Natasha Chart  on  02/26  at  04:20 PM

I was raised in a “fundie” house.  Everything was strict, down to what you wore, what expressions you were allowed to have on your face, what instruments you were allowed to play, etc.  Most of what took place was psychological abuse (more like terrorism), but physical abuse was present as well.  I spent every. single. day. of my first 20 years on earth walking on eggshells, afraid of what minor thing I might do next that warranted lectures that spanned multiple hours, screaming, and threats/acts of violence.  As is the case, the bulk of this started around the time I developed a firm grasp on language and started to develop my own desires and stubbornness.  How dare a child say “no”.

No three year old should be afraid that her father is going to murder her for breaking a household item.

I grew up emotionless, depersonalized, mentally ill, and violent.  I took pleasure in watching the suffering of others and longed for someone, anyone, to mess with me so I would have an excuse to bash their head in.

About a decade later, after years of therapy, I finally have my wits about me, have found my way back to my empathic origins, found someone to trust, and enjoy life (usually).  I still have mental illness, but the medicine I take balances out the neurotransmitters pretty well.  If I had been exposed to drugs during junior high or high school, I would have been dead long ago.  The fact that I wasn’t is the only reason I’m alive (plus I apparently wasn’t all that good at killing myself.  I can laugh about it now.)

Fundies create sociopaths.

Needless to say, I’m a huge opponent of any kind of dogma.
And Science is delicious smile

Comment #365: Anodyne  on  02/26  at  07:10 PM

Most kids probably benefit from spanking. They should be taught that if they get mouthy with people a lot bigger than them, the results can be painful. Better they should learn it from someone who won’t inflict permanent physical damage.

Comment #366: Odin  on  02/27  at  07:53 PM

I think the core issue is that certain views of the nature of family relationship are intrinsically abusive; whether they escalate to outright physical abuse of not can vary, but the psychological abusiveness is there.

It’s very strange. I know a guy who was raised in a missionary home. He’s a very interesting case, in that he has a very intellectual approach to looking at things, and this adds a surreal tinge to his religious expression, as well as his childrearing practice.

Think of how weird it must look when a person whose understanding of “the truth” of scripture was driven almost entirely by an authoritarian principle; that it’s true because you don’t have the authority to say otherwise, and that’s the last word. I was at his house one Christmas morning, and he had “crafted” a homespun Christmas morning Bible study ritual—in principle, a laudable notion. However, because of the fact that he really has very little way of understanding of the “truth” of the Bible outside the authoritarian angle, the presentation was wincingly, painfully morally disjointed and ugly; it felt like what it might have been like if he wrote the presentation with a big pencil resting on his shoulder, and a fiendish Alice came up behind him, grabbed the pencil, and wrote this blasphemous mess against his will.

Now: Analogize this to his childrearing, with the added kicker that he has one child gifted with a natural, inborn sensitivity to the arbitrary application of authority, and you see that a lot (a lot!) of utterly useless, and completely avoidable, grief is generated. I don’t think it has devolved to physical abuse, but it’s hard to imagine that the psychological abuse will be easily overcome in either of their lifetimes. Some day, the girl is just going to have to face it: Her father was a victim, and he passed it on to her. And she will need to forgive him.

Comment #367: Ron A. Zajac  on  02/28  at  07:38 AM
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