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Next entry: Marky Welby, Medical Rocktor Previous entry: Mega Science For Choads Debunking

Fundies probably don’t do it better

EducationReligionSex

One of the most interesting parts of this review by Louis Bayard of Dagmar Herzog’s book Sex in Crisis is an examination of how fundamentalists have resorted to using promises of the best sex you could ever imagine if you just wait until you’re married to do it.  Bayard suggests liberals should go on the offensive on this tactic, which made me happy, because it just so happens that this liberal is.  On this week’s podcast, I talk about the evangelical promise of ecstatic sex and suggest, yep, that it’s actually about being dutiful and substituting quantity for quality.  I didn’t want to push it on the podcast (limited time to make a point), but there is a sense in all the lavish erotic writings of evangelicals that are meant to lure you into the fold that the reality is more that women should learn to view themselves as masturbatory devices for men to keep them from self-abuse.  Bayard talks about that briefly.

A Christian wife, if she wants to keep her husband’s mind off porn and his hand off his own penis (onanism is still a big no-no), will have to be a 24/7 tootsie. She is advised to wear sexy lingerie and to keep her legs shaved and her nether region douched at all times. (“Wives,” as Jack Jones once crooned, “should always be lovers, too.”) And she has to give it up whenever her man comes calling. The example of a woman named “Ellen” is approvingly cited. “[My husband’s] purity is extremely important to me, so I try to meet his needs so that he goes out each day with his cup full. During the earlier years, with much energy going into childcare and with my monthly cycle, it was a lot more difficult for me to do that. There weren’t too many ‘ideal times’ when everything was just right. But that’s life, and I did it anyway.”

The book I talk about on the podcast demonstrates this attitude.  It’s hard to explain how frightening the dutiful leg-spreading wife sounds; seriously, just listen to it.  But I give you a clip from a video I use in the podcast, which I warn you is scary, because it’s Ted Haggard getting young men to talk about how much fucking they’re doing.

His motivations are suspect to me for obvious reasons, but I think the point is in there.  While there’s the promise of non-stop female orgasms, the male-centric view of all this (Jesus will make you an erection-all-the-time stud, guys!) couldn’t be more obvious.  I’m not saying that it’s bad to hump like bunnies, by any stretch.  I just question whether it’s that great if it’s a duty for her and bragging rights for him.

It’s not surprising that fundies are taking this course.  First of all, contrary to what Herzog claims (that the religious right movement is all about sex), the religious right is all about finding religious justifications for extremely right wing views on social hierarchies, especially the patriarchy.  So it’s utterly unsurprising that they’d argue that bliss is in a system where male sexuality is exalted as the life force itself, and women are relegated to object roles.  The promise that if you’re good now, you get your reward later during marriage also echoes their main argument (deprive yourself of certain joys on earth, get your reward in heaven). This understanding—-that the end of the day, this is about exalting straight men at the expense of everyone else—-is what’s missing when Bayard argues that the religious right’s war on sex hasn’t been that damaging.

Teens, after all, are still having sex. (America has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the developed world.) Gay sex, as Herzog admits, has “lost its power to repulse,” and our most populous state has now opened the doors to gay marriage. “Abstinence-only” has been a regression, it’s true, but liberal sex educators have pulled off a co-opting trick of their own, creating “abstinence-plus” programs that make abstinence simply one component in a comprehensive array of informed choices.

I’m unsure where his urge to be defensive of the wingnutteria comes from—-his own angst of his children’s sexuality, contrarianism, defensiveness of a homegrown weirdo movement?—-but he’s being slippery here.  Our higher pregnancy rate doesn’t reflect an especially high teenage fucking rate.  Kids in other developed nations develop into sex-having people at the same rate, but don’t get pregnant nearly as often, because they use contraception, which the abstinence-only movement condemns.  It’s our prudishness that causes our high rates of teenage pregnancy.  The co-option trick is cute and all, but pointless, because any “abstinence-plus” curricula that doesn’t adhere to anti-contraception guidelines doesn’t get its hands on that abstinence-only funding.  But what bothers me most of all is that he ignores the fundamental project of the chastity movement, which is to demean and control women’s sexuality and self-esteem through strict legal restrictions of birth control, and “education” that centers around the idea that women are dirty and are only acceptable if really submissive and properly aware of their fundamental dirtiness.  It’s a shame that Bayard doesn’t take that into consideration in his argument, because earlier he recounts one of the varied classroom exercises used to show girls that they are dirty and disgusting and should really be ashamed of themselves, especially if they’re not virgins.

Consider this classroom exercise: “Boys and girls are invited to chew cheese-flavored snacks and then sip some water, after which they are to spit the resulting ‘bodily fluids’ into a cup. After a game in which the fluids are combined with those of other students, ultimately all cups are poured into a pitcher labeled ‘multiple partners’ sitting adjacent to a pitcher of fresh water labeled ‘pure fluids.’ In the final segment, each boy and girl is asked to fill a cup labeled either ‘future husband’ or ‘future wife’ with the contents from one of the pitchers.”

Yes, technically the boys are supposed to be equally icky for being “unpure”, but that’s only in there so that abstinence-only doesn’t get bounced on a Title IX lawsuit or something.  The symbolism of pitchers of water, and of gushiness in general, isn’t lost in a society where douche still sells at a happy clip, despite feminist efforts to educate people of its dangers.  The fact that fundies imagine women who have sex at literally befouled, like sewer water or something, does have effects on teenage girls that they get to hear their message, and that concerns me more than the levels of PIV intercourse in the teenage population.  In Daniel Radosh’s book (interview in podcast), he comes across concerns from evangelicals, over and over, about teenage girls and cutting.  Really, it was weird, because it was a much bigger deal for them than it is for the rest of the population, implying that it’s a bigger problem.  But really, the levels of eating disorders and cutting in the young female population shows that the last thing that young women need to hear more is that they’re dirty and unpure, because the next step for people who internalize that message is all too often to engage in self-destructive self-purification rituals.  But here we are paying for anorexia and cutting education in the abstinence-only classroom. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:44 AM • (138) Comments

There was a piece in last week’s Time magazine called “And God Said: Just Do It,” about this very issue. 
Feminist author Lauren Sandler is quoted in the article, saying, “[The Christian calendrical sexhortations] are another way of becoming the best Christian wife - to have tons of orgasms so their husbands can do to church the next day and tell people how they really made Jesus proud in the sack.”

Comment #1: SarahMC  on  07/08  at  10:52 AM

Cheese-flavored, huh?  I think we dodged a bullet there.

But seriously, have the people who designed that ‘experiment’ ever met teenagers?  It would turn into a bragging rights contest to drink the backwash, immediately.

Comment #2: Mikey  on  07/08  at  10:56 AM

So basically Christian women are being put into a situation where they have to fake it.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/08  at  10:57 AM

So, no wang while you’re single, but more wang than you want, forcibly if necessary, after you’re married. And be sure to keep that rictus-smile in place, lest Jebus be disappointed in you, or you offend your husband.

What a bargain.

Comment #4: Crabby  on  07/08  at  11:12 AM

The thing is that if a man is a porn-addicted, cheating louse, it’s not because his wife didn’t give him enough lovin’, it’s because he’s a porn addicted cheating louse.

It’s like saying you should pay your accountant lots of money to make sure he doesn’t embezzle from your business. Even rich people steal, if they’re thieves.

So basically Christian women are being put into a situation where they have to fake it.

You know, I’m not particularly enthusiastic about going out to see Wall-E this week, but the woman I’m dating really wants to see it, and it’s a great excuse to take some time out to spend it with her. Am I “faking it” even though I probably wouldn’t see it if she wasn’t around?

Comment #5: Tyro  on  07/08  at  11:20 AM

Tyro, you are planning on watching the movie aren’t you? What are you planning on faking exactly? Seeing a movie you wouldn’t see alone isn’t faking by any definition. Will you say you enjoyed yourself when you didn’t? That would be faking. Do you tell your girlfriend you like spending time with her when you actually don’t? That would be faking too.

Do you really thinking faking orgasms is good for anything but ego stroking?

Comment #6: Jim RL  on  07/08  at  11:43 AM

Tyro, I’m not going to explain why going to see a movie with your wife is not the same thing as having to have sex when you don’t want to because the church demands it. The analogy is insulting.

Interestingly, my ex-husband was a super-conservative Christian who actually preferred that I didn’t orgasm. So I had to “fake it” in the opposite direction. Very uncomfortable situation and I still have the urge to apologize after orgasms to the guys I sleep with - thank FSM that they seem to be pretty dang happy that I do when I do.

Comment #7: Faye  on  07/08  at  11:46 AM

Creepy story, Faye. Sorry you had to put up with something as messed up as that.

But the quote from the woman in the article makes her sound like her attitude was, “all things being equal, I wouldn’t have had sex, but my husband wanted to, so we did it.” That’s not “faking it” as much as… well, I don’t know, I’m not going to pass judgment on how a couple decides how to manage their sex life.

Comment #8: Tyro  on  07/08  at  11:49 AM

I grew up in a fundamentalist church and it IS always about the sex. These people are obsessed with sex! Not just their own sex lives, but those of others. And all this talk about the mind-blowing nature of fundie sex, the purist bullshit. Sex (and specifically that of women) is the root of all evil, it must be rigidly controlled or everything else will collapse.

Once, in high school, a guy told me that the people who brag about sex the most are doing it the least. And I personally have found that if someone has a truly fulfilling (pardon the pun) and mutually satisfying sex life, he or she is less likely to be concerned whether and with whom others are getting it on. If all these fundies are bragging about their hot, married sex lives, you can bet that it isn’t hot.

Personally, I spend about zero time thinking about other people’s sex lives. Hell, I’m so busy, I don’t think enough about my own! Maybe the fundies should all get really time-consuming hobbies and then they won’t have time to worry about teh sex! I would much rather listen to Ted Haggard talk about, say model ship building, than sex. I couldn’t listen to the whole thing, squiked me out!

Comment #9: Burning Prairie  on  07/08  at  11:55 AM

“Boys and girls are invited to chew cheese-flavored snacks and then sip some water, after which they are to spit the resulting ‘bodily fluids’ into a cup. After a game in which the fluids are combined with those of other students, ultimately all cups are poured into a pitcher labeled ‘multiple partners’ sitting adjacent to a pitcher of fresh water labeled ‘pure fluids.’ In the final segment, each boy and girl is asked to fill a cup labeled either ‘future husband’ or ‘future wife’ with the contents from one of the pitchers.”

Um, how about the part where you wash the cup? Because most people bathe regularly - generally between sexual encounters. A more realistic exercise would be to pour the contents of the cup into a pitcher one by one, washing it between each deposit, including prior to the cup-filling part of the exercise.

In this analogy, what is the content of the “pure fluid” supposed to be?

Comment #10: g  on  07/08  at  12:10 PM

who actually preferred that I didn’t orgasm.

Jeebus. I am trying to get my head around that. So if you came, he’d get all pouty? That’s weird. I’m glad you got out of that relationship.

Comment #11: g  on  07/08  at  12:12 PM

Some years back, during one of our period national unity neurotic crises, it was common to see bumper stickers which read “mon Canada comprend le Quebec”, which was an interesting play on the verb “comprendre”: “my Canada includes/understands Quebec”.  English versions then appeared, then cheerful parodies (“my Canada includes [insert joke here]).

What America needs is some good ol’ red-white-n-blue bumper stickers which say things like:
“My America doesn’t read my neighbour’s mail”
“My America isn’t a voyeur”
“My America doesn’t want to sniff your underwear to see if you’re pure enough”.

Feel free to suggest others.

Comment #12: seeker6079  on  07/08  at  12:18 PM

As in everything they do, Christian conservatives take a reasonable idea and make it something really creepy.

I’ve been married for 15 years. In that time, there have been plenty of nights when I wasn’t in the mood, but went along because my wife was really frisky. There have been plenty of nights when my wife wasn’t in the mood, but she went along cause I was really feeling it. It happens even more frequently now that we have kids, since it’s damn near impossible to line up a time when a) the kids are asleep b) we’re not completely exhausted and c) both of us are in the mood.

And it may not be polite to say, but everyone knows that if your spouse isn’t getting it at home, eventually they’ll get it from somewhere else. So you do what you have to do to make the situation work for both of you. We don’t stand at attention waiting to service the tiniest inkling of lust from our partner, but we will break each other off something if one of us is feeling particularly horny.

Comment #13: dwhite10701  on  07/08  at  12:33 PM

Ew. That video skeeves me, and I don’t know whether it’s because I don’t believe a word of it or just because.

Tyro’s comment is also making me a bit sick. Having sex when you don’t really want to, because you feel you <i>should<>, might be OK sometimes, or it might be repeatedly collaborating in your own rape.

Comment #14: paul  on  07/08  at  12:35 PM

Teens, after all, are still having sex. (America has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the developed world.)

It’s kind of amazing that he would put these two ideas together and argue that abstinence only hasn’t been that damaging. It seems right now we kind of have a worst of both worlds - the kids are doing it, but they feel like shit about themselves for wanting something that is natural and supposed to be fun, and they aren’t using protection, cause that’s for sluts and doesn’t work anyway, and they end up with unwanted pregnancies and diseases.

It doesn’t seem to me that kids having unprotected sex and feeling like shit about themselves for it is exactly a victory for progressives. It’s not like we’re pro-teen sex just for its own sake, and as long as they’re getting it on, we win. I always thought the idea was for teenagers to develop a healthy attitude toward their own sexuality, understanding there is nothing wrong with desire, respecting others, mutuality, etc.

Comment #15: chingona  on  07/08  at  12:44 PM

Sorry if that made you feel a bit sick, but I was interpreting the wife’s comment as something along the lines of what dwhite10701 was talking about. If that’s the way a couple decides to manage their relationship behind closed doors, and no one is getting abused, I’m really not going to be the one to get outraged over it.

Comment #16: Tyro  on  07/08  at  12:45 PM

What I was thinking watching that movie was: “Those guys don’t know what a woman orgasming looks like”. Also: I’m a guy and even I don’t feel like sex every day. Do these guys have really easy jobs where they never get tired or stressed? Or are they just lying, which seems to be the more likely answer.

Comment #17: Max Polun  on  07/08  at  12:45 PM

Tyro, the faked orgasm is the first step to a shitty sex life.  It should never happen.  Ever.  Once you fake it, you have completely taken out of the equation any real motivation for the man to actually do it right.

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/08  at  12:50 PM

And what I meant was that if a wife a) has to have sex every single time her husband asks and b) has to have an orgasm so he feels his ego is done up right, then she will be faking it.  And because she fakes it, he won’t learn to get her off, so actually that “Every night we do it/every time she comes” attitude probably means she never, ever comes because he hasn’t got the first clue that she’s faking it.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/08  at  12:52 PM

“...but everyone knows that if your spouse isn’t getting it at home, eventually they’ll get it from somewhere else.”


Uhhh… I don’t think that’s a factual statement right there.

Comment #20: rowmyboat  on  07/08  at  01:11 PM

“If that’s the way a couple decides to manage their relationship behind closed doors…”

The problem with writing it off like that is that the couple is not managing their sex life.  The key word, I think, being couple.  Only one person in that couple is managing the sex life, and that is invariable the husband, backed up by a patriarchal, misogynistic religion.  The wife doesn’t actually have the option to say no, or to display lack of enjoyment, or to explain to him how she likes her sex.  Your sentence there assumes an equality in the relationship that is not present.

Comment #21: rowmyboat  on  07/08  at  01:21 PM

rowmyboat, am I wrong that everyone knows it, or am I wrong that a sexually active person will do what it necessary to get their sexual needs met? Or both?

Comment #22: dwhite10701  on  07/08  at  01:24 PM

I think there’s a difference between occasionally going along with it when you’re not in the mood at first in the interest of maintaining a sex life and consistently faking orgasms out of a sense of duty and turning your sex life into a fraud. I don’t know that I would go so far as to say you should do it so that your partner doesn’t cheat. I think I do it because we don’t have nearly as much sex as we used to before the kid and a bunch of other stuff came along, and strangely, the longer you go without sex, the longer you go without sex, if you follow that. So sometimes you just need to have sex so that you don’t go two months without doing it at all. And sometimes that time wakens you from your slumber so to speak, and you enter a more, uh, lusty phase of the relationship. So if he happens to initiate at a moment when I am thinking not about having a booty call but about how much work I have to do tomorrow, I’ll probably set my work thoughts aside and turn my attention to the booty call. I almost always end up having a good time. If I consistently didn’t have a good time, I would think that would be cause to re-examine a lot of things. And he’s certainly done the same for me, more than once. I consider it being thoughtful and giving with each other, not doing our duty.

Comment #23: chingona  on  07/08  at  01:46 PM

“I just question whether it’s that great if it’s a duty for her and bragging rights for him.”

Sounds par for the fundie course, actually.

Comment #24: Ginger  on  07/08  at  01:46 PM

And it may not be polite to say, but everyone knows that if your spouse isn’t getting it at home, eventually they’ll get it from somewhere else.

And that’s supposed to be worse than being coerced into sex you don’t want? 

“Put out or I’ll cheat on you” is entitlement-minded bullshit.

am I wrong that a sexually active person will do what it necessary to get their sexual needs met?

There are plenty of things they can do in the interest of getting their needs met that don’t involve cheating.  Discussing *why* they and their partner aren’t simulateously in the mood, getting counseling, deciding to honestly open the relationship, deciding it’s irreconcilable and breaking up, etc.  “Getting it from somewhere else” is the lazy, cowardly option, and “getting it at home” from someone who’s just trying to keep you from straying sounds like yet another recipe for a lousy sex life.

Comment #25: jfpbookworm  on  07/08  at  01:53 PM

Interestingly, my ex-husband was a super-conservative Christian who actually preferred that I didn’t orgasm. So I had to “fake it” in the opposite direction.

Just out of absolute morbid curiosity, what was his reasoning? I mean….hasn’t it been proven that female orgasm is one of the ways to promote the Sacred ManJuice traveling up to the Sanctified Ovum and creating TEH BABEES?

Comment #26: Crabby  on  07/08  at  02:03 PM

I took a course from Dagmar Herzog and she’s absolutely brilliant.  So excited to see this.

Comment #27: Medbh  on  07/08  at  02:04 PM

What frustrates me about all this is that it is just another example of “men get to set the standard” mentality that we see so often (see: housework, necessity of).

If your husband wants to be super-stud, you’ve got to be available and on-call and screaming with joy each time or you’re a bad wife. In my case, my husband had a really low sexual drive and I was NOT supposed to ask for or initiate sex, and I was not supposed to enjoy it when we did. I think a part of this was physical (probably low testosterone), a lot of it was upbringing (really, you should have met his parents), and a good fair whack of it was the fundie notion that if a woman enjoys sex, she might do it with someone other than you. Because it’s a pleasure for her, not a duty. And while she only has a duty to her husband, she can get pleasure from anyone, dontchaknow. (Plus, if she enjoys sex, then that means that if there’s one time she doesn’t enjoy it, for some reason, it’s YOUR fault.)

I have a GREAT book called “Nyphomaniacs” that explores this nonsense - routinely women used to get diagnosed as “nypho” based on the always-variable fact of how often their husband wanted it. A woman who wanted it once a month was a nympho if her husband wanted it once a year, but the same woman was frigid if her husband wanted it twice a week. I’m not going to discuss what they would sometimes do to these women, but I’ll just leave it that America has a long history of barbaric medical practices.

Comment #28: Faye  on  07/08  at  02:06 PM

Should be nyMpho, above. I can has edit?

Comment #29: Faye  on  07/08  at  02:07 PM

rowmyboat, am I wrong that everyone knows it, or am I wrong that a sexually active person will do what it necessary to get their sexual needs met? Or both?

I’d say both.

Comment #30: Helen H  on  07/08  at  02:43 PM

Jesus, Ted Haggard’s scary fucking face looks deformed there. He should look into a career of hiding under little children’s beds and in their closets. He’d be great at it.

Um, how about the part where you wash the cup? Because most people bathe regularly - generally between sexual encounters.

It’s spiritual dirt fundies are afraid of, which soap and water can’t wash away. Sticking your dick where another dick has been, even if the dick-hole has been washed since then, still makes you gay.

Comment #31: junk science  on  07/08  at  02:46 PM

I am going to have nightmares about the Ted Haggard clip! How utterly…wrong.  And I gotta say, for some guys engaging in good ‘ol hetero locker room bragging, the guys on the video looked pretty uncomfortable, too. 

I guess the fundies must be getting pretty nervous.  All of the ,“Live pure for Jesus or you’ll rot in Hell” scare tactics weren’t increasing their market share, so now they are trotting out the, “If you ever want a sex life that makes Deep Throat look like a quilting bee, you better save it up for the nuptial nookie” scare tactics for the menz, and the, “If you don’t want to die alone and have your decaying body become next week’s meal for your 89 cats, you better give it up whenever he wants it” scare tactics for the wimmins.

See, those evo psych “gendered brain” studies do come in handy for someone!

Sheesh.

Comment #32: Neko Onna  on  07/08  at  02:50 PM

I’m thinking that fundie couples don’t really do it any more than other couples and those that do are playing out some kind of sadomasochistic fantasy.

Comment #33: vache folle  on  07/08  at  02:56 PM

jfpbookworm, I don’t see where you actually disagree with me. To make a marriage work, both partners have to be willing to sometimes do things that they don’t feel like doing, both in and out of the bedroom. And if you aren’t willing to do that, you better believe that relationship is going to fail because at least one of the partners is not getting what they need from the other one.

Comment #34: dwhite10701  on  07/08  at  02:57 PM

It’s spiritual dirt fundies are afraid of, which soap and water can’t wash away. Sticking your dick where another dick has been, even if the dick-hole has been washed since then, still makes you gay.

That’s not what the “experiment” is about, though.  And from talking to fundie coworkers over the years, I don’t think that’s what’s really motivating them, either.  There’s a definite sense of physical unease with sexual impurity.

It’s part and parcel with “vaginas smell bad” and the rest.  The idea is to make something basically appealing into something physically disgusting.  Which, in the most horrible twist, doesn’t reduce the rate at which teenagers go ahead and have sex, it just gives them shitloads of hangups about it.

Comment #35: Ferox  on  07/08  at  02:59 PM

If you don’t want sex nearly as often as your partner wants it, I think letting your partner have sex with someone else would be *vastly* preferable to having sex you don’t want *and* having to pretend that it was great.

The problem with sex is that we have all been told it is one of the most intimate, closest acts you can perform. So performing it when you don’t want to will invariably make a person feel used and alone if they do it often enough. And faking it just makes it worse—it creates a total disconnect between the intimacy that’s supposed to be there and the fact that you are lying to the person you are supposed to be intimate with about your feelings. If the reason you’re doing it is that they will emotionally or physically hurt you if you don’t, then there’s no intimacy at all.

In other words having sex when you don’t want it and pretending you like it is a fantastic recipe for coming to hate the person you are having sex with.

One wonders if this has an effect on the fact that 2/3rds of divorces in America are initiated by women. The man thinks everything is fine because they have Godly sex every night and she comes all the time! The woman hates him, hates the way he smells, hates the sound of his voice, hates when he walks into the house because he reminds her of how it feels to have to have sex you don’t want and pretend to like it. So she dumps him and he’s all like “I never knew there was a problem!” Well, of course not, because you never cared about her as a person, dumbass. She was there to be your sextoy, and like any prostitute she secretly despised her john.

It’s funny how the right wing and other sexophobics like to claim that women who love sex are whores. Whores sell sex as a financial transaction; the biggest problem with prostitution as a profession is that it breeds contempt between both parties. A woman who has sex with you because she *likes* it or she likes *you* is the opposite of a whore even if she liked 27 other guys enough to have sex with them last month.

In other news, women dislike rapists who emotionally blackmail them into cooperating with repeated rape! Film at 11!

Now, that is *not* the same thing as occasionally saying “Well, you know, I don’t feel like it so much but this time I’ll go along because I want to make him feel good.” If that’s an occasional thing, well and good, though it’d be better if it came from both partners occasionally. If that’s how your sex life works all the time, that can turn into a serious problem. (It’s also not the same as “I never come, but I enjoy sex anyway, so I’ll willingly have sex with my husband”—while I personally can’t understand the point to sex without orgasm on a regular basis, some women really do enjoy it without coming.)

Comment #36: Alara Rogers  on  07/08  at  03:02 PM

And if you aren’t willing to do that, you better believe that relationship is going to fail because at least one of the partners is not getting what they need from the other one.

There are better ways to put that than “if you don’t put out, your partner will cheat on you.” You can say that all relationships involve some compromise in a number of matters, including sex, and happy couples will have both partners sometimes giving in to the others’ wishes just for their partners’ sake, and as long as this compromise goes both ways, it will make the relationship happier. If either partner isn’t willing to make concessions for the other, there’s probably some fundamental incompatibility between the partners, and they should either try to fix the relationship or end it.

Not everything has to be a fundie-style threat that makes people feel like they have to be on their toes with their partners at all times, and aiming the threat at both sexes instead of just women doesn’t help.

Comment #37: junk science  on  07/08  at  03:05 PM

To make a marriage work, both partners have to be willing to sometimes do things that they don’t feel like doing, both in and out of the bedroom.

And if you aren’t willing to do that, you better believe that relationship is going to fail because at least one of the partners is not getting what they need from the other one.

Yes to the first part, no to the second.  If by “relationship failing” you mean “one spouse cheating on the other”, that’s just a convenient excuse cheaters use.  Cheating is about control, not sex.  If someone initiates an extramarital afair, he is doing so because he either wants to have his cake and eat it too, or he wants to punish a partner, or humiliate a partner.  If it was really about sex, wouldn’t it be a whole lot easier to just talk to your partner about sex, or renegotiate the expectation for monogomy, or call it quits on the relationship and move on?

If by “relationship failing” you mean the partner who feels their needs aren’t being met leaves the other one, you could be right.  People sometimes do leave relationships they don’t find totally fullfilling. What do I have to say to that scenario as it pertains to the whole forced sex thing? (and no, I’m not talking about having sex on occasion even if you aren’t really stoked about it, I’m talking about the ‘living sex toy’ thing in Ellen’s quote in the article) Go for it.  Really.  People shouldn’t stay in relationships that aren’t meeting their needs.  It doesn’t work out well for either party. 

Sometimes “good bye” IS the right thing to say.

Comment #38: Neko Onna  on  07/08  at  03:14 PM

junk science, I agree with you, and that was the spirit in which I made my original post, but if others thought my original post was more “fundie-style threat,” then next time I’ll spend more time reviewing what I write so there will be less misunderstanding.

Comment #39: dwhite10701  on  07/08  at  03:15 PM

For what it’s worth I didn’t see dwhite’s comment as accepting the fundie imperative; I saw it as a variant on Dear Abby’s “husbands are like fires: if not tended they go out”, but written for both genders.  As such it is rather hard to argue with; people who “turn off the tap” for their spouses are often a bit like the fellow in Casablanca: shocked!  shocked they are at the adultery.

Nobody should say that a spouse should be able to force the other into sex, and I don’t think anybody here has.  Nobody should say that they have a “right” to sex with their spouse; they have a right to sex within their relationship and a right to leave if it isn’t found there.  Where it becomes troubling is where one spouse treats the other’s sexual needs as inconsequential to the dynamic between them: a spouse who thinks that they’re entitled to have their spouse fuck on demand is a creep and a moral cesspool; a spouse who thinks that they can unilaterally end the sex life and then blame the betrayed partner (and yes, ending a sex life is a betrayal akin to adultery and like adultery it is a cruel and insulting and deeply painful wound on the betrayed spouse) is in the same moral sewer.  Oddly enough, though, the latter group almost always gets the high ground.

Somebody else above wisely noted that therapy is an option.  One should be VERY careful in one’s choice of therapist.  I’ve seen more than a few* therapists who basically just go into a mode of trying to figure out everything that’s wrong with the spouse that still wants to make love to their partner; little or no effort is made to see if any blame or responsibility lies with the partner that suddenly says NO! all the time; the one that asks is prima facie wrong and needs fixing because the No must be their fault.

* - Dan Savage has had some cutting things to say about it too, so I know that my own practice’s experience was not an anomaly.

In the end, dwhite’s position isn’t any different from Dan Savage’s, for what that’s worth:  Male or female, gay or straight, sometimes you’ve got to be total slut for your partner even when you aren’t exactly in the mood, and sometimes they have to do that for you, and that’s always got to be balanced with mutual respect, equality and lack of implied or overt coercion.  What makes the fundies scumbags about this is that the woman is always wrong and has no power, the man is always right and has all the power.  That kind of marriage is a de facto rape carried out in slow motion over years.  It has nothing to do with sane people sometimes boffing their loved ones on days that they don’t 100% feel like it.

Comment #40: seeker6079  on  07/08  at  03:39 PM

jfpbookworm, I don’t see where you actually disagree with me. To make a marriage work, both partners have to be willing to sometimes do things that they don’t feel like doing, both in and out of the bedroom. And if you aren’t willing to do that, you better believe that relationship is going to fail because at least one of the partners is not getting what they need from the other one.

Where I disagree is in the implication that it’s the one who doesn’t want to have sex who has to do what they don’t feel like doing, and that a relationship is more likely to fail from one partner not getting the sex they “need” than from one partner not having their agency respected.

If partners rarely have their libidos coincide, that’s a problem, but simply ignoring the problem and having bad but regular sex strikes me as the worst possible solution.

Comment #41: jfpbookworm  on  07/08  at  03:41 PM

jfpbookworm, I don’t think that you and dwhite are in disagreement.  I think that the kicker is the word “sometimes”.  The assholes of the world want us to just accept shitty sex or no sex or pushy, antique male-centred demands in which the woman has little to no say, and that’s that, hence your accurate use of the word “regular”.  dwhite (and me, to be fair) are hanging our hats on an egalitarian stance of sometimes puttin’ out when you aren’t in the mood because that’s what a successful relationship sometimes hinges on: sometimes doing things you’d rather not simply could you would rather make your partner happy than not.  It’s when it oozes into regularity and entitlement that it becomes scummy.  (Me, personally, I’d put a higher onus on the het males than the het females simply because it’s pretty damned easy to make your partner very happy indeed with little or no effort on your part.  But that’s just an opinion.)

Comment #42: seeker6079  on  07/08  at  03:53 PM

What seeker said. Thanks for explaining things much better than I could. grin

Comment #43: dwhite10701  on  07/08  at  03:55 PM

But that’s just an opinion.

One which would probably draw stunned, horrified stares at a fundie convention, granted.

Comment #44: seeker6079  on  07/08  at  03:58 PM

Where I disagree is in the implication that it’s the one who doesn’t want to have sex who has to do what they don’t feel like doing, and that a relationship is more likely to fail from one partner not getting the sex they “need” than from one partner not having their agency respected.

I think that’s true when it’s consistently only one partner who gets his/her way.  In a relationship, there are always going to be times when one partner has to go along with what the other one wants to do, which is why my husband is trekking up to Carmel for my cousin’s wedding with me.

The problems come in when the balance of power gets out of whack and one person always gets to dictate to the other.  Yes, there are times when I’ve had sex and not been that into it initially, but I knew that my partner was not going to emotionally blackmail me into doing anything, so it was still my choice.  Which is probably why it ended up being fun after all instead of a chore.

Comment #45: Mnemosyne  on  07/08  at  03:58 PM

It’s the difference between “Would you mind doing me this favor?” and “But why won’t you do what I want!?!?!”

Comment #46: Mnemosyne  on  07/08  at  04:01 PM

The whole thing about keeping her husbands cup full just makes me want to throw up. It’s just… God, do these people not see how amazingly creepy they are?

Comment #47: Joshua  on  07/08  at  04:03 PM

What seeker said. Thanks for explaining things much better than I could.

Thanks back.  Now all I have to do is deal with my seething jealousy that Mnemosyne said things better than I could.  Again.

Comment #48: seeker6079  on  07/08  at  04:06 PM

“Where I disagree is in the implication that it’s the one who doesn’t want to have sex who has to do what they don’t feel like doing, and that a relationship is more likely to fail from one partner not getting the sex they “need” than from one partner not having their agency respected.”

Exactly.

Comment #49: rowmyboat  on  07/08  at  04:14 PM

rowmyboat, I don’t disagree with jfpbookworm in any way.  I just wish to note that I’ve seen an awful lot of marriages stall and crash because all of a sudden one partner starts putting their partner’s sexual needs into quotation marks.  I’m not talking about some entitled asshole who characterizes their own sexual preferences and demands as What Should Be.  I’m talking about a spouse who seems to regard their partner’s sexuality as an item that can be disposed of like staledated dairy products tossed from the fridge.  Believe me, I saw more than a few of them who spoke dismissively of their partner’s desire for them; the word “needs” had contempt and disdain dripping off the quotation marks, which hung in the air, almost visible and palpable.  People like that are every bit the horror show that these fundie pricks are.

Reason 1,089 why I stopped practicing divorce law, btw.

Comment #50: seeker6079  on  07/08  at  04:25 PM

(and yes, ending a sex life is a betrayal akin to adultery and like adultery it is a cruel and insulting and deeply painful wound on the betrayed spouse)...Oddly enough, though, the latter group almost always gets the high ground.

This isn’t totally fair. A lot of time when women cut off the sex, there’s a real reason at the root of it.

There’s the extreme trauma reason, for instance when a woman has been raped and can’t handle sex for the moment. Or even post-childbirth, when hormones can be unpredictable. I would not call either of those things akin to adultery.

Then there’s the breaking-of-the-camel’s-back, where the relationship is so shitty, the woman loses all sex drive. This can and does happen, and it’s shameful that the woman is blamed for trying to manipulate the man with sex. (Yes, this does happen the other way around to, but I am speaking from personal experience, hence the pronoun choice.) It’s absolutely fucking unrealistic to expect a woman to leap into bed with a man after a day of cooking, cleaning, and slaving away without appreciation and - in fact - being berated constantly because the food wasn’t good enough, the laundry wasn’t wrinkle-free enough, and the dishes weren’t stacked in the dishwasher efficiently enough.

And for all the “Well, she should just leave!” choruses about to go up, yes, I realize that, but when you’re clinically depressed, it takes some working up to. And blaming the woman to be a ‘spiritual adulteress’ because she isn’t fucking her husband is a shameful fundie tactic and it needs to stop. We have enough slut-shaming without having to start shaming women for not having sex enough/at all if they don’t want to. And, really, at the end of the day, it is my CHOICE whether to share my body with my husband. If he doesn’t like it, he can leave, but it is not the same as adultery. Not by a long shot. (At the very LEAST, I can’t accidentally contract HIV by not having sex, whereas having sex with an adulterous husband…not so safe.)

Comment #51: Faye  on  07/08  at  04:38 PM

Reason 1,089 why I stopped practicing divorce law, btw.

God, and now I remember the last argument we had, Seeker, the “women spring relationship talks on their husbands whenever they try to relax and the men - rightfully - divorce them.”

I would be more likely to believe you had some background in law if you didn’t back all your arguments up with “teh poor mens” anecdotal evidence. Does it really never occur to you that there are two sides to every marital problem?

Comment #52: Faye  on  07/08  at  04:40 PM

I try to meet his needs so that he goes out each day with his cup full.

Does anyone else think “... with his cup full” seems like a somewhat odd way of describing a sexually satisfied male? In fact, it sounds kind of backwards to me.

Comment #53: Julian Elson  on  07/08  at  04:42 PM

No, I don’t think it’s okay to suggest that someone “sometimes” have sex they don’t want, even if their partner’s willing to have sex when they don’t want to.  It’s not a balancing act.

Part of the issue here may be that a lot of folks here, myself included, are talking about this as a binary when it may be more of a continuum.  Which means that folks may be talking about an “I’m not into it at the moment, but I’m willing to see if my mind will change” sort of mood (which seems to be what Mnemosyne was talking about) and I’m reading it as “I don’t want to right now, and these initiatory acts aren’t changing that.”  I don’t have much of a problem with the former, provided that a partner’s right to say “no, sorry, still not into it” is respected.

Comment #54: jfpbookworm  on  07/08  at  04:51 PM

This isn’t totally fair. A lot of time when women cut off the sex, there’s a real reason at the root of it.

There’s the extreme trauma reason, for instance when a woman has been raped and can’t handle sex for the moment. Or even post-childbirth, when hormones can be unpredictable. I would not call either of those things akin to adultery.

I wouldn’t either, necessarily.  Those are all legitimate reasons why one partner wouldn’t want to have sex with the other for a time.  However, if sex was cut off for one of those reasons (or any other that you mentioned), with no explanation, no work on trying to get to the root of the problem and/or fix it, and no expectation of there ever being sex again, just a “well I’m sorry that’s just how I feel and you’ll have to get over it and do without” then yes, I’d compare that to adultery.

For instance, when I was pregnant with my youngest, I was not in the slightest bit interested in sex.  In fact, I was physically repulsed by the very idea of sex of any sort.  Even hugging and cuddling upset me.  However, the husband and I talked it through and it was understood that if that state of affairs continued for more than a few months after the pregnancy was done, then we’d maybe want to try to figure out what was wrong, either with me physically/psychologically or with our relationship, because you don’t go from a higher sex drive than your partner to nothing in the space of a few weeks for no reason whatsoever.  Because he loves me, he was willing to put up with that for several months, and because I love him, I was willing to work on ending the situation once I had given birth and recovered from that.  Luckily for us, it was pretty much hormonal and pregnancy related and things returned to normal relatively soon thereafter.  It’s not like he’s been cut off for the past 3 1/2 years with no explanation whatsoever.

And I think that’s the point seeker and dwhite were trying to make.

Comment #55: ks  on  07/08  at  05:00 PM

And I think that’s the point seeker [was] trying to make.

Then he should say that, then, and not “no sex = betrayal akin to adultery”.

Comment #56: Faye  on  07/08  at  05:08 PM

ks, one’s recourse in such a situation is to end the relationship, not to cheat or to demand that one’s partner fuck them anyway.

Comment #57: jfpbookworm  on  07/08  at  05:09 PM

However, if sex was cut off for one of those reasons (or any other that you mentioned), with no explanation, no work on trying to get to the root of the problem and/or fix it, and no expectation of there ever being sex again, just a “well I’m sorry that’s just how I feel and you’ll have to get over it and do without” then yes, I’d compare that to adultery.

I will also add that if you’re being emotionally abused and you’re clinically depressed, it’s not easy to pin-point WHY your sex drive has suddenly disappeared. So talking about it can be very dicey, especially when the opposite party is frustrated and angry (and emotionally abusive). And working on it can be pretty much impossible, because when you’re really emotionally depressed, “working on” anything is a huge, insurmountable problem. And if a husband is emotionally abusive, it’s not very likely he’s going to be super-sensitive about working through your depression and lack of sex drive, since his abuse caused the depression anyway. Even if he didn’t mean to, and he’s just a natural asshole.

So I stand by my umbrage that saying a woman cutting off sex is equal to adultery and that they shouldn’t get the “moral high ground” because they are evil bitches. That sort of entitlement bullship gets my gorge rising.

Comment #58: Faye  on  07/08  at  05:14 PM

I never said it was, I just said that in that situation, there has been a betrayal.  If you’re in a relationship where there is the expectation of monogamy, so that one partner’s sexual fulfillment is dependent on the other’s, then cutting them off without any explanation of why or any renegotiation of the terms of the relationship, then that is, in fact, an asshole thing to do.  Not that two wrongs make a right, not that one person is obliged to have sex that they don’t want to have, and not that cheating in that case is an acceptable thing, leaving probably is for the best in that situation, but it still doesn’t make the withholding partner any less of an ass.

Comment #59: ks  on  07/08  at  05:15 PM

And Faye, I don’t feel that if you are depressed and in an emotionally/physically abusive relationship that you (the general you, not you specifically) are in the wrong for cutting off sex or not wanting sex or whatever.  Obviously there are special circumstances and every individual is different, etc.. 

I’m just saying that in a reasonably healthy relationship, of which that is definitely NOT an example, that both partners have a reasonable expectation of having their sexual needs met by the other.  And if they aren’t, then a renegotiation of the terms of the relationship (especially if there is the expectation of monogamy) or ending the relationship are probably good ideas.

Comment #60: ks  on  07/08  at  05:20 PM

Random stupid question:  What about masturbation?  If one partner really wants to, and the other is definitely NOT in the mood, what’s so problematic about the lusty partner excusing themselves for some ‘private time’?  Lusty partner gets their orgasm, nonlusty partner isn’t the nagged/coerced/cheated upon…seems like a liveable compromise at least for a while.

Comment #61: mustelid  on  07/08  at  05:20 PM

Faye, I honestly don’t think you’re being fair.

1. I never said that there aren’t two sides to a matrimonial problem.  My divorce practice never settled down into a given type of client and so I saw pretty much every side at one time or another: men, women, wronged, wronging.  About the only type of client I never had was an abuser, nor did I represent gay couples; the law hadn’t changed in their favour yet and so they were few and far between in the court system.

2. I readily concede that some people “turn off the tap” because of problems in the relationship, of which there can be countless examples; to assume otherwise would be a narrow-minded error.  It is also a narrow-minded error to assume that a spouse who unilaterally ends the sex life in a marriage has a good reason for doing so.  It is important for you to examine your own assumptions: it was you who leapt to the assumption that I was talking about women.  I used gender neutral language because both men and women do it.  As it happens my own practice only dealt with marriages where it was the woman who ended the sexual union; in previous threads on this subject I have noted my practice was atypical in that websites for such wronged spouses seem to break down roughly equally along the gender line: both men and women do it.  Dan Savage has noted that his experience over the years has been consistent, though: that where sex ends the man gets the blame; others think he’s wrong.  I don’t know.

3. As for the “serious talk” thread, two things. 
One, I had serious issues with the phrase “we need to talk” and that was gender-based, but I explained myself clearly there and don’t wont to belabour the point, save for…
Two:

This is, bear in mind, not an argument against Talks in relationships; I just believe that the Now! method of discussing something important is a very shitty way to do things, often very skilfully exploited by manipulative individuals.  I’m willing to concede right away your point that men do this too because I instantly accept that they can be manipulative assholes too.

This is a feminist blog, an egalitarian blog, not a women’s only blog.  If a feminist man sometimes takes a male viewpoint (and I haven’t even done that here: you assumed that I had) you can’t instantly render it invalid or unworthy of discussion by hauling out that tired, boring supposed argument winner of “oh, all you want to do is talk about da menz!”.  That said, I credit you with arguing in good faith and without rancour or hidden agenda (and arguing well ... I note the phrase “lucid and insightful” describing one of your posts), so is it too much trouble to ask you to give me some credit for arguing in good faith and without gender prejudice?

Faye, it is abundantly clear that you have had some seriously shitty things happen in your relationship and your life.  So have I, (but I have had far better luck in my partners than you have had, a bonus of dealing with feminist women).  Moreover, we seem to have conducted our last exchange with mutual respect, a deference between equals, and courtesy.  I see no need to be at odds.  Arguing is fine, but assuming that I’m peddling a gender party line is a bit much and not merited.

Comment #62: seeker6079  on  07/08  at  05:25 PM

I just said that in that situation, there has been a betrayal.

How is it a betrayal?

Because, in a marriage, you’re supposed to expect a little sex? That’s the justification against marital rape laws.

I’m not trying to pick a fight, just please explain how my not wanting to have sex with my husband for any reason (mental, physical, traumatic, biological, name your poison) is a betrayal of him?

I don’t remember “...to fuck at least once a month” being in my marriage vows…

Comment #63: Faye  on  07/08  at  05:25 PM

And, seeker, I realize you used gender-neutral language, but that doesn’t excuse that:

1) You’re wrong - lack of sex is not a betrayal, nor a betrayal akin to adultery.
2) These arguments are regularly used to shame, berate, and abuse women.

Using gender-neutral language doesn’t wipe out the fact that what you are arguing is offensive, ridiculous, and most likely to harm women (who have, statistically, the least recourse to divorce against an abusive husband demanding sex).

(And it also doesn’t wipe out the fact that you DID target women in the previously mentioned thread.)

Comment #64: Faye  on  07/08  at  05:30 PM

Those are all legitimate reasons why one partner wouldn’t want to have sex with the other for a time.

I’m not sure that I made it clear that I was not talking about lulls in a sexual relationship, but permanently ending it or creating a lull that is a de facto ending without actually having the gumption to say so: adjourning making love sine die as it were.

As for me harping on being a former divorce lawyer, it may sound windbaggy, but I do that for a reason: I respect my ex wife and my ex girlfriends.  Some people here bring their personal relationships forward into the discussion when they have been treated badly, as they are entitled to do.  When I talk about shitty people within relationships I want to make it abundantly (and yes, boringly) clear that I’m not talking about my personal experience unless I specifically say so.  (The “Serious Talk” thread was a good example: I brought my ex’s style into it because she had a sensible way of approaching such talks.)

Simple rule: don’t write anything on a blog that would resulting somebody you know feeling betrayed or angry.  I do my best to stick to it.  Sorry if my phrasing makes me sound like a pompous ass, though.

Comment #65: seeker6079  on  07/08  at  05:35 PM

Once again, you’ve failed to explain:

1. Why does ending a sexual relationship (for valid reasons or otherwise) constitute marital betrayal?
2. Why is this “betrayal” equal to or worse than adultery?

Comment #66: Faye  on  07/08  at  05:37 PM

I will also add that if you’re being emotionally abused and you’re clinically depressed [et seq., to….] Even if he didn’t mean to, and he’s just a natural asshole.

I find your assumption that only women can suffer from depression or be emotionally abused more than a little disturbing.  I’ve been clinically depressed and it pretty much cost me everything I had: my career, my family, my finances.  I’m still putting the pieces back, years later.  I’ve been emotionally abused in a long-term relationship [discl: not my wife], leaving me a confused, useless wreck for a long time afterward.  Your arrogant assumption that only you understand such suffering is infuriating and sexist as hell. How dare you.

You also are deliberately and, now I’m certain, maliciously conflating two wholly different concepts in two wholly different threads.  You are using the fact that I took a gender-based approach in a thread about Serious Talks and saying that it validates your assumption that I am taking a gender-based approach in a thread about sexual expectations between spouses.  Chalk and cheese, Faye, and tacky as hell to mix them to make a cheap rhetorical point.  You can’t weasel out of the fact that I took a gender-neutral approach on a gender-neutral subject and you made a gender-based assumption and you took it from there.  You can’t magically pass the blame for that bit of nasty sexism over to me by reaching into another thread on another topic and saying “voila!  that’s what seeker really meant!”

If you want to assume that it’s always women saying No, fine.  You’re talking through your smug, sexist ass, but fine.  Just don’t slap that piece of trollery on me.

Comment #67: seeker6079  on  07/08  at  05:49 PM

Faye…do you not consider marriage to be a sexual relationship at all? No, nobody has the right to DEMAND sex from a spouse. But they do have the right to expect a *sexual relationship* with their spouses.

It’s the difference between any one sex act and the absence of a sexual component overall. To unilaterally cut off the sexual component of a marriage, without recourse, is to basically undo the marriage. I guess I won’t say it’s as bad as cheating, but if my spouse wouldn’t make love to me, and refused ever to do so again, I’d have not qualm one about leaving him.

If he had a good reason and was willing to work on it, I’d stay and help him work on it. If it were simply something he wanted, permanently? Gone. I can get a roommate on Craigslist. I don’t have to list one on my taxes.

Comment #68: The One True Vegan  on  07/08  at  05:52 PM

Once again, you’ve failed to explain:
1. Why does ending a sexual relationship (for valid reasons or otherwise) constitute marital betrayal?
2. Why is this “betrayal” equal to or worse than adultery?

I’m done debating with you.  You’re arguing in bad faith and acting like a sexist asshole who then adds insult to injury of accusing me of sexism.  If you think I’m going to sit here with a polite little smile on my face and converse with you after that you are, to put it mildly, in error.

Comment #69: seeker6079  on  07/08  at  05:54 PM

I think it’s perfectly reasonable to expect sex in marriage. It’s not reasonable to demand sex at any particular moment or to expect sex to always be on your terms, but it’s perfectly reasonable to expect sex. I’ve been on the receiving end of no sex due to a partner’s depression. And in my head, I understood that he was depressed and that wasn’t something he had control over and that I needed to set my needs aside for the moment. And I did, because I’m not an asshole. But it still felt pretty lonely at times. And feeling lonely when you have someone else lying next to you in bed is a pretty crappy feeling. And if it had continued for years, I don’t know that I could have taken it.

I absolutely 100 percent believe that sometimes one side is justified in not having sex. No one should have the expectation that they can treat another person like shit and still get laid. Of course, the same sense of entitlement and ownership over another human that drives abusive behavior usually leads them to expect no consequences for their behavior, either.

But in a non-abusive situation, I don’t think it’s fair to say that if one partner decides they’re through with sex, the other one just has to be okay with that. The partner that wants sex doesn’t have the right to take it or demand it. Bodily autonomy trumps everything, of course. But he or she has every right to be upset and even to feel betrayed.

Comment #70: chingona  on  07/08  at  05:54 PM

I think it’s perfectly reasonable to expect sex in marriage. It’s not reasonable to demand sex at any particular moment or to expect sex to always be on your terms, but it’s perfectly reasonable to expect sex.

This is where I fall along these lines, too.  Most people get married with the expectation that they will have a regular sex partner, and people who don’t have usually discussed it beforehand.  It’s not a strange and bizarre requirement that comes out of nowhere.

(Since this always seems to come up in these discussions, it’s not that asexual people can’t or shouldn’t get married, but they should probably discuss the fact that they’re asexual before they get married.)

Comment #71: Mnemosyne  on  07/08  at  06:00 PM

I find your assumption that only women can suffer from depression or be emotionally abused more than a little disturbing…Your arrogant assumption that only you understand such suffering is infuriating and sexist as hell. How dare you.

Seeker, read and THEN post. I clearly said: (Yes, this does happen the other way around to, but I am speaking from personal experience, hence the pronoun choice.)

Faye…do you not consider marriage to be a sexual relationship at all? To unilaterally cut off the sexual component of a marriage, without recourse, is to basically undo the marriage.

Do people only get married for sex now?

Okay, first off, Vegan - if my husband unilaterally cut off sex with me, I’d have some choices to make. In fact, I’ve faced those choices before, because I was in a marriage where I had a much higher sex drive and it was rough as hell. I eventually decided that the sexual aspect did not outweigh the other reasons I loved him and was with him, so I stayed (until he left, for other reasons). However, no, I do not have a problem with anyone leaving a relationship (marriage or no) because a need (including a sexual one) is not being met.

However, I was (and still am) taking issue with the ridiculously bullying statement that cutting off sex is a “betrayal” to another person. Many people can and do have sex drives that stop for perfectly valid reasons, and saying that they are “betrayers” (an incredibly perjorative word!) is terribly unfair. If their spouse or partner decides that they need to leave, then hopefully they will do so kindly and gracefully, and that’s their right. But all this “betrayer” nonsense is a club and a bad one.

And I say that as someone who is not angry that her ex-husband didn’t like sex very much - he wasn’t “betraying” me, he was just a different person with different interests. He owed me love and respect, but he didn’t owe me sex.

Comment #72: Faye  on  07/08  at  06:03 PM

This is where I fall along these lines, too.  Most people get married with the expectation that they will have a regular sex partner, and people who don’t have usually discussed it beforehand.  It’s not a strange and bizarre requirement that comes out of nowhere.

(Since this always seems to come up in these discussions, it’s not that asexual people can’t or shouldn’t get married, but they should probably discuss the fact that they’re asexual before they get married.)

One more reason why the “no sex before marriage” line is BS. Everyone has different sex drives, and these things need to be worked out before you decide to get married, I believe.

Comment #73: Faye  on  07/08  at  06:07 PM

Oh, and seeker, I’m sorry that your false umbrage over something I didn’t say now prevents you from explaining:

1. Why does ending a sexual relationship (for valid reasons or otherwise) constitute marital betrayal?
2. Why is this “betrayal” equal to or worse than adultery?

I thought lawyers had to use facts, or logic, or reason, or something other than statements that everyone else is supposed to accept point-blank?

Comment #74: Faye  on  07/08  at  06:08 PM

Look, unless you’re blessed with a polyamorous temperament and a poly-friendly spouse, your marriage means you get one partner, for life. If wanting to have sex, ever again, before you die is “only getting married for sex,” then I guess I’m guilty.

I don’t think my spouse would “owe” me sex. But he WOULD owe me the honesty to say, here is how i feel about sex within our relationship. Here’s how far I’m willing to go in changing it (if at all).

I would never marry someone without hammering out WHAT IT MEANS to be a spouse, within our marriage. And in my marriage, that would include a sexual component (not “Drop trou when I say so, knave!” A general sexual component.)

If he then decided we simply weren’t having that conversation anymore, then yes, I would feel betrayed. Maybe I would ALSO feel compassionate. But these things are not mutually exclusive. I would feel both compassionate for whatever difficulties he might have, but also betrayed—the marriage i thought I agreed to was taken from me.

It doesn’t justify rape, it doesn’t justify abuse. It’s just a natural human response to having the rug pulled out from under you, by someone you loved and trusted.

Comment #75: The One True Vegan  on  07/08  at  06:13 PM

How are people comparing “adultery” and “betrayal,” which are choices, to a loss of sex drive, which is generally not a choice? You cannot compare something that one makes a conscious decision to do with something that is beyond one’s control. The plain fact of the matter is, while there are the rare assholes out there that do withhold sex on purpose, most don’t, and, it’s incredibly offensive and insulting to imply that they do.

Comment #76: CrzyKttyW  on  07/08  at  06:16 PM

However, I was (and still am) taking issue with the ridiculously bullying statement that cutting off sex is a “betrayal” to another person. Many people can and do have sex drives that stop for perfectly valid reasons, and saying that they are “betrayers” (an incredibly perjorative word!) is terribly unfair. If their spouse or partner decides that they need to leave, then hopefully they will do so kindly and gracefully, and that’s their right. But all this “betrayer” nonsense is a club and a bad one.

I think the “betrayal” comes when one person unilaterally cuts off sex with no explanation and refuses to discuss it.  When you give your partner a choice between living with someone who refuses to communicate their reasons for cutting off an important part of the marital relationship and leaving, that’s not really giving them a choice.

Frankly, the unilateral withdrawal of sex can be the mirror image of the unilateral demand for sex.  With both actions, you can be trying to control the other person’s sexuality.

Comment #77: Mnemosyne  on  07/08  at  06:16 PM

Look, unless you’re blessed with a polyamorous temperament and a poly-friendly spouse, your marriage means you get one partner, for life.

Nope.  It means you get one partner, for the duration of the marriage.

Comment #78: jfpbookworm  on  07/08  at  06:17 PM

@5:09 p.m. -

Oh, and seeker, I’m sorry that your false umbrage over something I didn’t say now prevents you from explaining ...

@4:54 p.m. -

I’m done debating with you.  You’re arguing in bad faith and acting like a sexist asshole who then adds insult to injury of accusing me of sexism.  If you think I’m going to sit here with a polite little smile on my face and converse with you after that you are, to put it mildly, in error.

“read and THEN post”

Comment #79: seeker6079  on  07/08  at  06:17 PM

Nope.  It means you get one partner, for the duration of the marriage.

Oh, that’s right, I forgot. Nobody ever, ever plans to stay married anymore. When considering marriage, nobody ever thinks “lifetime commitment.” It’s not even a cultural RELIC anymore. Who even REMEMBERS such a crazy concept?

Is there an eye-rolling smiley? Jeebus. I’m divorced, and that seems needlessly cynical and hair-splitting even to me.

Comment #80: The One True Vegan  on  07/08  at  06:21 PM

In relationships where the sex stops, I suspect that in the vast majority of them, the one who has run out of desire does not sit down and say, “Honey, I just don’t think I want to have sex anymore. If you feel you need to leave, I understand.” Or even, “Honey, you’ve disappointed me so many times that my desire for you has disappeared.” These are not easy conversations to have, not just because of puritanism around sex, but also because we get dependent on our relationships, even unhealthy ones, and don’t want to fess up to things that could cause those relationships to end. The person who has an affair rather than deal with their issues with their partner is trying to have their cake and eat it too. So is the person who keeps saying “Not tonight” when what they really mean is “never again.” They are stringing their partner along in the hopes that someday things will change because they don’t want to give up the relationship. Betrayal might not be the right word for all those situations, but such a thing could certainly be felt as a betrayal, particularly because of the lack of honesty.

Comment #81: chingona  on  07/08  at  06:21 PM

You cannot compare something that one makes a conscious decision to do with something that is beyond one’s control.

But you can compare the decisions that someone makes about that thing that’s out of their control.  If, as ks said, you sit down with your partner and say, “Okay, something’s gone wonky with my sex drive,” that’s different than suddenly moving into the guest bedroom and refusing to discuss it.  You can keep the lines of communication open.  My now-husband and I got through a nasty six-month period where I was too depressed to be interested in sex and too poor to afford medication.  It was difficult, but we managed it, because we kept communicating (and because I was in therapy, which helped).

And, like it or not, a sudden unexplained loss of sex drive is very often a harbinger of the relationship breaking up.

Comment #82: Mnemosyne  on  07/08  at  06:22 PM

How are people comparing “adultery” and “betrayal,” which are choices, to a loss of sex drive, which is generally not a choice?

the loss of drive isn’t a choice. What you do about it (or more importantly, don’t do) IS a choice. The spouse who loses his or her drive does not get to just shut up and shut down…or rather, they DO, but they cannot then expect the other partner to just sit around and take it.

Comment #83: The One True Vegan  on  07/08  at  06:25 PM

How are people comparing “adultery” and “betrayal,” which are choices, to a loss of sex drive, which is generally not a choice? You cannot compare something that one makes a conscious decision to do with something that is beyond one’s control. The plain fact of the matter is, while there are the rare assholes out there that do withhold sex on purpose, most don’t, and, it’s incredibly offensive and insulting to imply that they do.

THANK YOU.

I think the “betrayal” comes when one person unilaterally cuts off sex with no explanation and refuses to discuss it.

Mnemosyne, I get what you’re saying, but from my point of view, the sort of drastic, terrible thing that might suddenly shut off *permanently* a healthy person’s sex drive 10 years into an established marriage would probably also be very likely to make it difficult for them to discuss it. I just don’t feel that inability to discuss the issue is a “betrayal”, particularly not on the level of freakin’ adultery, nor should we be angry that they get “the moral high ground” or whatever else BS seeker is spewing.

I’m not arguing that the situation would be difficult, uncomfortable, and painful. But many things in marriage and life are, without resorting to a blame game.

Nobody ever, ever plans to stay married anymore. When considering marriage, nobody ever thinks “lifetime commitment.” It’s not even a cultural RELIC anymore. Who even REMEMBERS such a crazy concept?

Not trying to be rude, but lifetime marriage is not a part of everyone’s culture. I myself go for the Wiccan Handfasting renewal, where a couple pledges to stay with each other for a length of time (1 year, 5 years, whatever) and then reconsiders at the end of that time. Most of those relationships end up being de facto permanent, but the choice makes a difference. (It reminds me of mothers who say that the choice of abortion made the decision to keep the ‘surprise baby’ a much sweeter thing.)

I do think that many people change enough over the course of a lifetime that lifetime marriage is not possible. I’m a completely different person than I was 10 years ago. Which isn’t to say I wouldn’t be intensely loyal to the one I love, and I wouldn’t try to stay together, but if things do change and you aren’t compatible anymore, why should there be shame and guilt attached to that?

Comment #84: Faye  on  07/08  at  06:29 PM

In relationships where the sex stops, I suspect that in the vast majority of them, the one who has run out of desire does not sit down and say…

chingona, that assumes that the person KNOWS that they never want to have sex again, and they are hiding that fact. Unfortunately, that is often not the case. If a woman has hormonal problems that causes her sex drive to evaporate, does she know her hormones or causing it? Or does she think she’s tired after a long day of work, child-raising, and house-keeping and maybe tomorrow she’ll be more in the mood?

I’m just trying to caution against this betrayal language. It’s not the same as adultery, IMO, which is a choice intended to get selfish personal gratification.

Comment #85: Faye  on  07/08  at  06:32 PM

What chingona said at 5:21 and what Mnemosyne said at 5:22.  I would only add these:

1. Mnemosyne said at 5:00 - Some asexual people hide that asexuality until after they’re married; some people with very low sex drives hide that until after they’re married.  Some are ashamed of it, some think that there’s something wrong with themselves that marriage will fix, and some just plain hide it because they don’t want a dealbreaker.  No matter what the serious issue, bait-and-switch is a shitty way to deal with another person.

2. Some people who are going through a no-sex phase (or who fit into the categories noted above) move to the attack: they go after the spouse even they know that the situation originates in themselves, not the spouse.  Some do it because they’re ashamed or messed up and confused and verbally so lash out as a misplaced defence mechanism. Some do it because they’re manipulative control freaks who want the blame on somebody else’s shoulders and to retain the moral high ground.

Comment #86: seeker6079  on  07/08  at  06:33 PM

That’s exactly the point, Vegan.

The betrayal isn’t about the lack of sex (nor should it be, no one is entitled to sex from another, period) but from the lack of communication. Feeling betrayed because your partner won’t communicate with you is completely valid….feeling betrayed because your partner won’t giveyou teh sex when you want them to selfish and wrong.

Comment #87: CrzyKttyW  on  07/08  at  06:34 PM

“....feeling betrayed because your partner won’t giveyou teh sex when you want them to selfish and wrong.”

Should say:

...feeling betrayed because your partner doesn’t give you sex when you want is selfish and wrong.

Comment #88: CrzyKttyW  on  07/08  at  06:35 PM

And, like it or not, a sudden unexplained loss of sex drive is very often a harbinger of the relationship breaking up.

I agree, and I don’t disagree. (The loss of a child is also, statistically a harbinger of the relationship breaking up.)

I just don’t think it’s right to blame the person who lost the sex drive.

And I’m not taking issue with you, or chigona, or anyone else except seeker, who stormed in, threw around words like “betrayal”, “adultery”, and “moral high ground” and then stormed off. I don’t think that’s intellectually honest, I don’t think it’s fair, and I think it’s hurtful to people who have to listen to that and be compared to adulterers when - in reality - their depression precluded sex AND communication. And they didn’t have medication or therapy and they lost their spouse and they hate themselves for it, and - oh yeah - now it makes them as bad as an adultery. Nice.

Comment #89: Faye  on  07/08  at  06:36 PM

I think a tacit assumption most marriages have is:
1) You’re going to have sex with each other
2) You’re not going to have sex with anyone else

Now, (1) doesn’t mean “any time either of you feels like it, they send up the bat signal and the other comes running”. It means that you acknowledge each other’s desires and try to meet them.

(1) is negotiable, but then so is (2). If your sex drive tanks, whether it’s something your partner is impacting or not, you need to make it clear to them that sex is not available for now and figure something out that works for both of you.

For what it’s worth, my fiancee’s sex drive is WAY higher than mine. So, if I’m not in the mood but not actually falling asleep, I’ll try and help her out. She has a healthy relationship with literotica.com. And I imagine at some point in the future, she may want some outside sexual contact, and I’d be OK with that as long as we talked to each other and set up some ground rules.

Comment #90: pepito  on  07/08  at  06:36 PM

Look, I’m well aware that Wiccans, among some other groups (still the vast minority, however) do not view marriage as a lifetime committment. But can we please spend one minute in reality land, where yes, most people PLAN, with some degree of hopefulness, to stay together indefinitely (even though less than half succeed). And where people are also kind of selfish and confused and TOTALLY capable of acting hurtfully, even when they themselves are hurt?

It’s possible for someone to be traumatized, depressed, confused, and rightfully so…and still hurt their partner. It’s possible to FEEL betrayed even when you can’t completely blame the other person for their actions. Just insisting to people “you don’t feel how you feel!” is really unhelpful and dishonest.

Comment #91: The One True Vegan  on  07/08  at  06:38 PM

Mnemosyne, I get what you’re saying, but from my point of view, the sort of drastic, terrible thing that might suddenly shut off *permanently* a healthy person’s sex drive 10 years into an established marriage would probably also be very likely to make it difficult for them to discuss it.

If your partner becomes an alcoholic during the course of your relationship, is it fine for them to refuse to discuss it?  Or would you be justified in being angry that they refuse to discuss it?

Comment #92: Mnemosyne  on  07/08  at  06:39 PM

“I agree, and I don’t disagree.” shuold be “I agree, and I don’t think that’s without a reason.”

@ 5:36

Comment #93: Faye  on  07/08  at  06:39 PM

I apologize for my reality land comment. It’s not that I think Wiccans aren’t “reality,” i just wanted to call the debate back to, you know, the vast majority of marriages in this country, and my snark got the better of me. It was uncalled for, but unintentional. My bad.

Comment #94: The One True Vegan  on  07/08  at  06:41 PM

If your partner becomes an alcoholic during the course of your relationship, is it fine for them to refuse to discuss it?  Or would you be justified in being angry that they refuse to discuss it?

good point. most alcoholics become so in the aftermath of some kind of legitimate trauma (depression, self-medicating mental illness, death and grief).

Comment #95: The One True Vegan  on  07/08  at  06:43 PM

If your partner becomes an alcoholic during the course of your relationship, is it fine for them to refuse to discuss it?  Or would you be justified in being angry that they refuse to discuss it?

Mnemosyne, I’ll try to answer carefully here, as I think I’m being misunderstood.

Is it “fine” for them to refuse to discuss it? It’s never fine to not communicate. But I don’t think it’s a “betrayal” of me. I may think it’s a poor choice, I may think that it’s unhealthy for our relationship, I may think a lot of things, but this victim/abuser language is the exact opposite of communication! He’s a betrayer and I’m a victim? No thanks.

Furthermore, why did they suddenly become an alcoholoic when things were fine earlier? (If things weren’t fine earlier, why did we get married, or why did we rush into marriage without my realizing this? Did he hide the alcoholism from me? If so, a divorce is in order, and post-haste. I’m assuming this “loss of sex” is in an established marriage, not a new one.) Did we lose a child? Did he lose a job? Is he self-medicating for something? Again, this is not a good situation and he needs help, but that does not make him an evil betrayer of me or our marriage!

In the end, it is for me to decide if I will stay under the new parameters of our relationship (unlikely) or whether I will go. But it’s hardly his fault. And - I will add - the analogy isn’t perfect since alcoholism harms the alcoholic, but no-sexing does not harm the person who has given up sex.

Once again, I am arguing against bombastic betrayer language.

...

One True Vegan, no harm done on the reality thing. My point is just that if you think “marriage = X”, you will, from what you seem to be saying, (I think) have that conversation prior to the marriage. If you think marriage is for eternity, no matter what, then I can imagine that you would be pretty upset if the person you married changes in a way you don’t like. And if they don’t discuss it, that is painful and puts you in a tough position. I’m not denying any of that.

All I’m saying is that this victim/abuser “betrayer” nonsense closes the door to communication further. If your spouse suddenly doesn’t want to have sex with you, you seeing him as a betrayer isn’t going to make you try to understand him better - and it IS going to make him not want you any more any time soon! And it’s a highly unlikely strawman that he just stops wanting sex AND just won’t talk about it at all because he’s an asshole. If he stops wanting sex and won’t talk about it, probably something is drastically wrong and if you really want to save the marriage (since you want a permanent one), being understanding is far more likely to do that… rather than calling him “adulterer” in your head every time you see him.

(Not that I’m saying YOU would do that.)

And I would like to remind seeker that a lot of rape victims do come to Pandagon and last time this “no sex = bad person” came up, a poster was deeply hurt by it, and pointed out that her rape was bad enough without feeling guilty for not wanting sex and not wanting to relive the experience by talking about it.

Comment #96: Faye  on  07/08  at  06:49 PM

I was reading this past weekends posts at PostSecret and there is a picture from a couple that haven’t figured out how to ‘do it’ in like 4 months of trying. Another couple responds that they’ve been trying ‘it’ for over 6 months and still can’t get it right.

Best sex? It’s got to by slow and dirty… Lots of ‘fluids’ and dirty words… Lycra and lace help too… Sex toys are permitted… wink

BTW, on Salon they have this on their front page.

Comment #97: PinkyLeftBrain  on  07/08  at  06:58 PM

well, ok, i can see one area where we are speaking at cross-purposes, at least. This:

If he stops wanting sex and won’t talk about it, probably something is drastically wrong and if you really want to save the marriage (since you want a permanent one), being understanding is far more likely to do that… rather than calling him “adulterer” in your head every time you see him.

Is not really what I’m talking about when I say “betrayal” or “feeling betrayed.” I don’t think the person who feels betrayed just ‘gets’ to go ahead and blame the spouse, and never contribute to a solution in any way. It’s on the betrayed person to WORK THROUGH that emotion of feeling betrayed, just as it’s on the withholding person to BE HONEST about their situation.

I’m really not trying to justify some kind of endless blame loop. I just think a feeling of betrayal is very common and very natural whenever ANY terms of a relationship, and especially a marriage, change abruptly and unilaterally.

Comment #98: The One True Vegan  on  07/08  at  06:59 PM

Hey, I dated a drug addict and alcholic (the same person) in college. They kept it pretty hidden. Well, until I found out about it… And their other ‘partner’. SEE YAH!!!

Comment #99: PinkyLeftBrain  on  07/08  at  07:00 PM

Is not really what I’m talking about when I say “betrayal” or “feeling betrayed.”

Alright, and I’ll grant you the ability to reasonably use the word in the context you describe, but I have to point out that my argument was with seeker’s original post, and his terms. He describes ending a sexual relationship as a cruel and unnatural act that is as bad as adultery. And, like adulterers, people who end a sexual relationship should be treated as immoral, terrible people.

If you come along and ‘agree’ with seeker by using the same words, but using them in a different fashion, I don’t know that’s what you’re doing. And I’m not blaming you or anything, just trying to explain how I could miss your point.

I don’t think that marriages that break up because someone lost their sex drive should have the same level of shame and acrimony as a guy who went around tom-catting because he always wondered what it would be like with a prostitute.  And that was what seeker was basically suggesting - even if it wasn’t what you meant.

Friends again? smile

Comment #100: Faye  on  07/08  at  07:07 PM

Faye, I agree that at the end of the day, it’s up to each individual to decide - these are the parameters of the relationship, can I live with this or not? At a certain point, you start to see what’s going on, whether you’ve had a talk or not.

But a lot of times these things develop gradually over time (alcoholism, mental illness, a gambling problem, loss of sex drive, conversion to Republicanism, whatever), and it can be incredibly frustrating, humiliating and, yes, betrayal-feeling for the one partner when the other minimizes the problem, refuses to seek help for the problem, blames the other partner for the problem. You can feel that the other person doesn’t value the relationship enough to get help or try to change, and that can really hurt, even if you ultimately decide to leave.

Comment #101: chingona  on  07/08  at  07:14 PM

Alright, and I’ll grant you the ability to reasonably use the word in the context you describe, but I have to point out that my argument was with seeker’s original post, and his terms. He describes ending a sexual relationship as a cruel and unnatural act that is as bad as adultery. And, like adulterers, people who end a sexual relationship should be treated as immoral, terrible people.

I guess this is where we get back into terms again.  If your spouse withdraws sex without explanation, and so you start up another sexual relationship with someone else, do you automatically become the immoral, terrible person in the relationship because you’re the adulterer and your spouse is automatically the injured party?  Or can the blame be shared between both parties?

Again, let me emphasize that I’m talking about when the person withdraws without explanation.  If you explain to your spouse/partner that you can’t have sex right now because of a physical or psychological problem and s/he goes running out to find someone else, that makes them an asshole.  It’s the “without explanation” that’s the betrayal that’s just as bad as adultery.  Even “I’m going through a hard time right now” is better than no communication.

Comment #102: Mnemosyne  on  07/08  at  07:33 PM

Consider this classroom exercise: “Boys and girls are invited to chew cheese-flavored snacks and then sip some water, after which they are to spit the resulting ‘bodily fluids’ into a cup. After a game in which the fluids are combined with those of other students, ultimately all cups are poured into a pitcher labeled ‘multiple partners’ sitting adjacent to a pitcher of fresh water labeled ‘pure fluids.’ In the final segment, each boy and girl is asked to fill a cup labeled either ‘future husband’ or ‘future wife’ with the contents from one of the pitchers.”

Consider this classroom exercise: the class are introduced two drivers. The first has had a long period of tutoring from other experienced drivers, formal driving instruction, and a defensive driving course before getting their license.  They have also been driving for several years.  The second has never driven before, but is really excited about their chance to finally get out on the road and see what they can get up to.  Oh, they’re also boasting that they went out to choose the fastest car they can, and paid for it by scrimping on tires and safety devices.

In the final segment, each boy and girl is asked which passenger seat they’d rather share to get them to where they want to go…

Comment #103: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/08  at  07:35 PM

Does anyone else think “… with his cup full” seems like a somewhat odd way of describing a sexually satisfied male? In fact, it sounds kind of backwards to me.

Yeah, it really does. If anything, his “cup” should be empty.

I guess that’s what happens to your brain when you start thinking condoms cause pregnancy.

Comment #104: junk science  on  07/08  at  07:37 PM

But a lot of times these things develop gradually over time (alcoholism, mental illness, a gambling problem, loss of sex drive, conversion to Republicanism, whatever), and it can be incredibly frustrating, humiliating and, yes, betrayal-feeling for the one partner when the other minimizes the problem, refuses to seek help for the problem, blames the other partner for the problem. You can feel that the other person doesn’t value the relationship enough to get help or try to change, and that can really hurt, even if you ultimately decide to leave.

Chingona, I understand the sentiment, but I don’t agree in all cases. If someone’s sex drive tails off, or if they convert to Republicanism (a joke, I know), or if they change religions (not a joke, a lot of marriages end for this reason), or if they do anything that doesn’t *hurt* you or them (so alcoholism is out), why are they supposed to admit they have a problem, or get “help”? The person you marry isn’t agreeing to be a static person for life - they will grow and change. And it’s not their job to meet your every need all the time. Yes, communication can and SHOULD happen, I completely agree. But framing this in terms of them being damaged and needing “help” or “change” puts your worldview over theirs. If your partner’s sex drive slows, why can’t you masturbate? If they become a Republican, why can’t you discuss politics with someone else? If they decide not to play tennis, why can’t you get another partner? If they change religions, why can’t you respect that?

I don’t feel that a changing sex drive is *necessarily* analogous to mental illness or alcoholism, since it implies that the sex drive change is bad or unhealthy. Yes, communication should happen. But I’m concerned about the terms coming from you that the partner needs to ‘get better’ and it sounds a bit like you think the person you marry is supposed to stay the same person forever - and you’re not entitled to that.

If your spouse withdraws sex without explanation, and so you start up another sexual relationship with someone else, do you automatically become the immoral, terrible person in the relationship because you’re the adulterer and your spouse is automatically the injured party?

A fair question. Let’s define further. Your spouse has had something legitimately bad happen to cause loss of sex drive AND inability to communicate that loss. Also, this legitimately bad thing isn’t your fault (emotional abuse). And you honestly believe that the loss of sex isn’t permanent, and that it’ll get better, because otherwise you’d just initiate The Talk and leave. But you’re better than that, and you promised ‘till death do us part’. And you aren’t going to cheat, because that would be Wrong. BUT, you happen to stay late at work one night, and that good friend of yours was there, too, and you didn’t mean to, but you hadn’t had it in months/years/decades and the next thing you knew, you were naked and the Deed was done. You then decide, because you’re a decent person, after all, to go home, talk to the spouse, tell them what happened, and have a frank discussion about what is going to happen from here on out - whether to change or dissolve the relationship, which are really your only two options.

I have actually seen this happen, word for word, in Real Life. And the couple broke up with a minimum of acrimony. Of course, he wasn’t too happy about the loss of sex, and she wasn’t too happy about the one-time affair, but both realized that the situation was VERY BAD without either person being VERY BAD and they had just become two very different people. Interestingly, they both remarried and are now very happy with their new spouses - and this was about a decade ago that the affair happened.

I do think that the scale isn’t probably perfectly balanced - the adulterer could probably have kept from “cheating” that night, could have realized how close he had come, and gone home and initiated The Talk without having actually cheated. But I don’t hold anyone to perfection, certainly not a confused, frustrated, saddened spouse with a high sex drive who is trying not to have The Talk because they don’t want to push their spouse into a worse place than they already are. So, to answer your question, I don’t really think there is “blame” to share, per se, but rather that the situation is just bad, for reasons beyond their control.

Mind you, that’s only if everything defined above is true, where each party is trying their best to do the right thing. Lest I get strawmanned. smile

Comment #105: Faye  on  07/08  at  07:52 PM

PIATOR, that is the best freakin’ counter-analogy EVER. Thanks for the hearty laugh. smile

Comment #106: Faye  on  07/08  at  07:53 PM

Faye, perhaps the analogy is a little strained, but I was responding in part to the analogy made my mnemosyne to alcoholism. By loss of sex drive, I don’t mean less sex. I mean, what if there was no sex for years on end? That happens in marriages, and I don’t think “you could just masturbate, why are you being so selfish?” is an okay response. Masturbation is a perfectly acceptable solution to one person not being in the mood that night or that month or during an illness or whatever. Masturbation provides sexual release. It doesn’t provide a feeling of closeness and intimacy with your partner. Cutting off sex hurts - not physically, but emotionally. It’s certainly not THE SAME as alcoholism or mental illness, and I certainly don’t expect people to stay the same, but I think it’s not entirely different in that - you have something driving a wedge between the two of you, and if rather than deal with it openly and look for a solution that meets both your needs, the person with the wedge issue just decides, unilaterally, that they’ll do what they want and if you don’t like it, you can leave, that would hurt. A lot.

Again, we may be disagreeing because you give more weight to the word betrayal than maybe I do. You see it as an accusation against one party, while I see it as a feeling experienced by the other party. Look at the questions on the Al-Anon web site - Do you ever feel like if he/she really loved you, they’d quit drinking? I could pretty easily imagine someone feeling that if he/she really loved me, they’d have sex with me every now and again. It’s not just the withholding of the physical act - it’s all the emotional signficance tied up with the act in the context of a relationship and the loss of that. That’s not nothing.

Comment #107: chingona  on  07/08  at  08:21 PM

No, I think I agree with Seeker, you are arguing in bad faith, Faye.

What Seeker was originally suggesting is that unilaterally terminating the sexual side of a relationship without any communication and committing adultery are morally equivalent. Depending on the specific circumstances, he may have an argument to make, but I think you were right to dispute the generalization he was drawing. That said, you have been clearly making insulting assumptions about the motives for his own point of view. Accusing him of being sexist and then dismissing your own gendered assumptions as being merely your perspective.

Really, I don’t have a dog in this fight, but this is just too glaring to let pass:

I don’t think that marriages that break up because someone lost their sex drive should have the same level of shame and acrimony as a guy who went around tom-catting because he always wondered what it would be like with a prostitute.  And that was what seeker was basically suggesting - even if it wasn’t what you meant.

Taking the most blameless and unavoidable reason for terminating a sexual relationship and comparing it with the most venal, selfish, and malicious reason for adultery is not a fair comparison. Making such a comparison and then attributing it to the person you are disagreeing with, without cause, is the definition of making a straw man argument. If this was your intention all along, Seeker was right to stop talking with you.

Maybe Seeker’s mistake was not answering your two questions. Regardless though, from a neutral corner it looks like you were assuming the worst of him.

Comment #108: Medicine Man  on  07/08  at  08:22 PM

PIATOR, that is the best freakin’ counter-analogy EVER.

Actually, change

“Oh, they’re also boasting that they went out to choose the fastest car they can, and paid for it by scrimping on tires and safety devices.”

to read

“Oh, they’re also boasting that they went out to choose the fastest car they can, and they’re going to be trusting to a faith-based approach to tire tread…”

Comment #109: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/08  at  08:26 PM

Faye, I have to side with seeker—-people take the sex cut-off not seriously enough, because of the erroneous culture belief that sex is a luxury, a plus, not a normal part of life that is deeply missed if you are cut off.  Being cut off without explanation from sex sucks bad, as does any other kind of being cut off from affection.  If I went a week without getting laid and the reasons started to sound stale, I’d demand that we at least talk.  If it went a couple of months without a real discussion and an attempt at a solution, I would start to disengage from the relationship.  Once someone withdraws like that, it’s over.  Attempts to talk about it/restart the engines are attempts to save the relationship.  If there’s no sex, you’re just roommates.  And I don’t like having roommates.

Comment #110: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/08  at  08:44 PM

Which isn’t to say that I couldn’t go a week without.  Of course I can.  But if there were opportunities, shut downs, and no discussion at all?  That would be weird.  If it were months, I’d be pissed.  Beyond fixing, probably.  You gotta talk.

Comment #111: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/08  at  08:53 PM

Which isn’t to say that I couldn’t go a week without.

That’s good. When I read your first comment, I was tempted to post some sort “good thing you’re not planning on having kids” comment, but I was worried the joke wouldn’t come through. And the joke is mostly at my own expense, not yours.

Comment #112: chingona  on  07/08  at  08:56 PM

If your partner’s sex drive slows, why can’t you masturbate?

Let’s try that on other people who are socially expected to refrain from having sex with partners forever, besides those cut off from sex by spouses.

Why do gay people have to have sex with other people and make some people uncomfortable?  Why can’t they masturbate?

Why do teenagers, etc.?

Why do single mothers, etc?

The utter injustice of it becomes obvious.  We realize that our bodies are made not just for self-pleasure, but for sharing.  A person cut off at home doesn’t lose that need to touch others (with mutual consent, of course).  It’s hard to blame a cheater who has been cut off at home with no hope of continuation in the future because their SO won’t talk about it.  Ideally, they just leave.  But let’s be fair—-the other person is indeed breaking the promise of monogamy.  Monogamy=having sex with each other and not anyone else.  If one breaks the first, I can see why the other has a reason to break the second.

Comment #113: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/08  at  09:02 PM

To Medicine Man and Amanda:
Thank you.

Comment #114: seeker6079  on  07/08  at  09:03 PM

It does seem women tend to go asexual in relationships more than men.  I think the explanation is actually pretty simple: women aren’t titillated all the time, and men are.  Men even have social occasions to touch themselves more.  To be as horny as a guy, you have to claim the space that men have in the world.  Touch yourself when you go to the bathroom.  Secretly look at sexy guys.  Let your eyes linger over underwear ads.  It works.  Of course, it makes Christian women sitting next to you on airplanes uncomfortable if you’re as comfy with sex as a guy.  God knows I had a moment yesterday when I was wearing a T-shirt that said “New Pornographers”, carrying a purse declaring my love of pro-choice boys, watching a DVD with nudity in it and reading a book with sex scenes.  All normal to me, but I realized I probably seemed wildly oversexed.  Oh well.

Comment #115: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/08  at  09:11 PM

Oh, that’s right, I forgot. Nobody ever, ever plans to stay married anymore. When considering marriage, nobody ever thinks “lifetime commitment.” It’s not even a cultural RELIC anymore. Who even REMEMBERS such a crazy concept?

WTF?

Of course lots of people plan to stay married.  I suspect the vast, vast majority of people who marry do.  I suspect even the vast, vast majority of people who get divorced had planned to stay married at some point.  But sometimes things change in such a way that the relationship just doesn’t work any longer.

I’m not advocating abandoning a partner at the first sign of conflict.  But the sort of situation that’s being bandied about (one spouse refuses sex, refuses to explain themself, refuses any kind of marital counseling, demands that the relationship remain monogamous, all with no sign that this is a temporary condition) - that’s a reason to end the relationship, not a reason to cheat or demand sex that the partner doesn’t want.  (And I second the “what’s wrong with masturbation?” response.  If you’re going to talk about “closeness” or “intimacy”, please tell me how sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with you promotes those things.)

Comment #116: jfpbookworm  on  07/08  at  09:21 PM

The problem with discussions about just ending the relationship is that they often don’t factor in children.  A person who leaves a no-sex marriage because may leave their children behind, a price that they don’t want to pay even for this most elemental and emotional and intimate human needs.  They not only fear losing their children they fear being branded as selfish narcissists in their reason for leaving.  I’m with Amanda: too many people write off sex in a relationship as something that You Can Do Without and have little or no sympathy for people who don’t take that view.

Comment #117: seeker6079  on  07/08  at  09:39 PM

Let’s try that on other people who are socially expected to refrain from having sex with partners forever, besides those cut off from sex by spouses.

Why do gay people have to have sex with other people and make some people uncomfortable?  Why can’t they masturbate?

Why do teenagers, etc.?

Why do single mothers, etc?

Nope, not the same thing.  Suppose someone who you’re not interested in wants to have sex with you.  Do you owe them that?  Is telling them to just masturbate out of line?

The right to sexuality is *not* the same as the right to sex with a particular person.

The utter injustice of it becomes obvious.  We realize that our bodies are made not just for self-pleasure, but for sharing.  A person cut off at home doesn’t lose that need to touch others (with mutual consent, of course).  It’s hard to blame a cheater who has been cut off at home with no hope of continuation in the future because their SO won’t talk about it.

Which, of course, is why so many cheaters use that excuse.

Ideally, they just leave.  But let’s be fair—-the other person is indeed breaking the promise of monogamy.  Monogamy=having sex with each other and not anyone else.  If one breaks the first, I can see why the other has a reason to break the second.

So declare the agreement null and void and end the thing.  Nobody has the right to keep someone in a relationship they don’t want to be in, but neither does anyone have the right to maintain a relationship through fraud.

Comment #118: jfpbookworm  on  07/08  at  09:47 PM

You know, I hate it when people reject scientific evidence in favor of wives’ tales, and perpetuate gender stereotypes that are totally full of shit:

http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/thinksex.asp

It is not true that men are constantly turned on anymore than it is that women are not constantly turned on. Everyone is different. Two people who don’t have much interest in sex might be a perfectly good match as a married couple…

Comment #119: Foucault  on  07/08  at  09:51 PM

“Which, of course, is why so many cheaters use that excuse.”

Excuse? If your partner is a freaking corpse sexually speaking, of course the “cheater” has a right to “cheat.” Or rather, they have a right to a life, while the asexual should probably join a convent or refrain from marriage at least.

Comment #120: Foucault  on  07/08  at  09:53 PM

Lol… besides the completely frightening aspect of that “Christian wife” blip up there this part made me laugh…

“During the earlier years, with much energy going into childcare and with my monthly cycle, it was a lot more difficult for me to do that.”

Can’t have sex when you’re on your period?

BULLLLLLLSHIIIT.

Talk about marital suppression. You’re his ‘Christian’ sex slave and you birth the kids with the help of your, oh I don’t know, saved up menstrual blood and he says “icky!” when you come near him with it. It kills me so bad I just have to laugh.

Comment #121: Kiah  on  07/08  at  10:00 PM

If there’s no sex [in a marriage], you’re just roommates.

I really think this is the saddest thing I’ve read in a long time, but I can see that my problem all this time is that I’ve been arguing with a different idea of marriage from the other posters and Pandagon authors involved in this thread. Seriously, I know it sounds sarcastic, and I’m not trying to be, but I just have a completely different idea of marriage and what a marriage should entail, and it’s now obvious to me that my ideas are some kind of wacky offshoot, like the Wiccan handfasting renewal relationship I brought up earlier. Sometimes I get so wrapped up in my way of looking at the world that I forget that other people define things differently. I really don’t understand why marriage has to be defined by sexuality, but rather than just stir up things further, I’ll just politely bow out and apologize for causing problems with my unusual definitions of marriage, love, and relationships.

Comment #122: Faye  on  07/08  at  10:13 PM

Foucault: “Excuse? If your partner is a freaking corpse sexually speaking, of course the “cheater” has a right to “cheat.” Or rather, they have a right to a life, while the asexual should probably join a convent or refrain from marriage at least. “


I see the point you’re trying to make here, but the “corpse” and “convent” comments are pretty fucking offensive. Having an extremely low sex drive (for whatever reason) doesn’t make a person some freak deserving of contempt.

Comment #123: Brandon Cornell  on  07/08  at  11:18 PM

I think a big problem with the whole sex issue *is* the whole “moral high ground” thing. It seems like people in general don’t want to accept that a relationship/marriage can end, can even end in a horribly painful way, without anyone being the “bad guy”.

The idea is that *either* the person not wanting sex is unjustified, or not communicating well enough, etc. *or* the person leaving is selfish, has an excessive sense of entitlement, or should at least feel a little guilty about not being able to stay and support their partner in the sexless relationship.

Comment #124: Brandon Cornell  on  07/08  at  11:27 PM

Faye - what is your idea of marriage?

I would say a marriage is by DEFAULT:
a) For life
b) Sexually monogamous (in both the sleeping together and not with anyone else senses)
c) Emotionally intimate
d) Cohabiting

BUT - any of these are negotiable. If you marry a pilot or undercover CIA agent, he/she is likely to spend a lot of time away from home. You brought up the Wiccan handfasting as an example of marriage that’s intentionally not for life. Plenty of people have marriages that are non-monogamous. And there are people who confide more in a best friend, sibling, or parent, than they do in their spouse.

How does your definition differ?

And the communication piece - I think it’s two-way. If your partner suddenly cuts off sex and you still want it, it’s your responsibility to attempt to figure out (or help him/her figure out) what’s wrong, and help them fix it. If you get nowhere, then I don’t think you’re out of line for looking for sex elsewhere.

Ech, I have 6 weeks to the wedding and I’m stressed out. So all this marriage stuff is on my mind.

Comment #125: pepito  on  07/08  at  11:32 PM

Marriage doesn’t have to be defined by sexuality, there are many other important things in a relationship, but it is a damn important component for most people.  And if a lot of people (me, for instance) can’t see keeping up a marital relationship (with or without the actual marriage—I’m talking about the relationship here) without that component, then I don’t see how that’s wrong.  And I don’t see how I wouldn’t feel let down and betrayed if the husband unilaterally cut me off without explanation, discussion, renegotiating the terms of our marriage, etc.

But really, Mnem, Vegan, and Chingona said it way better than I did.

Comment #126: ks  on  07/08  at  11:52 PM

“I see the point you’re trying to make here, but the “corpse” and “convent” comments are pretty fucking offensive. Having an extremely low sex drive (for whatever reason) doesn’t make a person some freak deserving of contempt.”

Of course you are right, I was just being a jerk. (Well, maybe some of my hidden frustrations come out here). Ah, the perils of marrying an older man…. anyhow. I am also trying to finish up my thesis this week, so the old brain is a little more toxic and frazzled than usual (if you regular readers of my nasty comments can believe that).

I think people have a wide range of sexual appetites and interests at different points in their life. Someone who is a slut in their twenties may become nearly asexual or abstain in their thirties, and then meet someone they really love and want to have sex with in their forties and fifties.

I actually don’t think sex is crucial for marriage. Many marriages are based on very different things: raising a child together; making money off of someone else; Green Card issues; Boston marriages; comfort and security; a soul-mate who likes Madonna and Kaballah; etc…

So who am I to judge someone else? If your spouse can put up with your sexual behavior, then the rest of the world should STFU.

Comment #127: Foucault  on  07/09  at  12:02 AM

If your husband wants to be super-stud, you’ve got to be available and on-call and screaming with joy each time or you’re a bad wife. In my case, my husband had a really low sexual drive and I was NOT supposed to ask for or initiate sex, and I was not supposed to enjoy it when we did. I think a part of this was physical (probably low testosterone), a lot of it was upbringing (really, you should have met his parents), and a good fair whack of it was the fundie notion that if a woman enjoys sex, she might do it with someone other than you. Because it’s a pleasure for her, not a duty. And while she only has a duty to her husband, she can get pleasure from anyone, dontchaknow. (Plus, if she enjoys sex, then that means that if there’s one time she doesn’t enjoy it, for some reason, it’s YOUR fault.)

This reminds me of the justification used for female circumcision. It’s to “protect HER”, you know, from all those nasty hormones and the undeniable temptation to slut herself out at every available opportunity, DESPITE factors such as legal oppression, ostracism from community, etc. for displaying a sex drive before marriage.
I cannot help but be reminded of the Malleus Maleficarum, and a very similar line of logic used during the Burning Times. “Women are naturally susceptible to temptation and as such are more likely to be witches, fall prey to demonic possession, etc”.
The more and more I hear such wacko “logic”, the more and more angry I find myself at people who start to toe that precarious line.
Are these wackos speaking from their own overwhelming lust dramas, and then impose this on “their women”, because they fear their own nymphomania? I doubt it is largely as simple and clean-cut as “it’s okay for us, but not for them, so lets persecute them”. I guess what I’m saying is that I think it’s important to understand this craziness so that it is easier to confront/ combat/ counter.

Comment #128: The Mad Child  on  07/09  at  12:05 AM

And the communication piece - I think it’s two-way. If your partner suddenly cuts off sex and you still want it, it’s your responsibility to attempt to figure out (or help him/her figure out) what’s wrong, and help them fix it. If you get nowhere, then I don’t think you’re out of line for looking for sex elsewhere.

Are you talking full-out adultery or divorce? I think that old saying “If what you seek you find not within, you will never find without” is appropriate here… typically, the interpretation of the saying is to look within oneself, but the same is true for a marriage and sexual issues (in my opinion). Having sex with someone else will only complicate the marriage and alienate your spouse, not to mention, betray the marriage. Certainly, if both married persons agree to such an arrangement, and it works, then I am wrong, but I highly doubt seeking sexual gratification from a person outside the marriage will make things any better (in fact, quite the opposite).
If sex is such an issue that a spouse has to cheat instead of work through the issue with the other spouse, then what other issues can one ever hope to overcome in the future? Buying/building a house, death in the near family, having children, money troubles, etc… are all similar situations. You can’t just go look to others to fix the problem every time your marriage is in trouble. It then fails to truly be a marriage.
Besides, would it really be less painful to divorce because of lacking sex than to divorce on matters of adultery?

Comment #129: The Mad Child  on  07/09  at  12:14 AM

Consider this classroom exercise: “Boys and girls are invited to chew cheese-flavored snacks and then sip some water, after which they are to spit the resulting ‘bodily fluids’ into a cup. After a game in which the fluids are combined with those of other students, ultimately all cups are poured into a pitcher labeled ‘multiple partners’ sitting adjacent to a pitcher of fresh water labeled ‘pure fluids.’ In the final segment, each boy and girl is asked to fill a cup labeled either ‘future husband’ or ‘future wife’ with the contents from one of the pitchers.”

Gee.  Any girl who’s got questions about how binging-and-purging works is sure gonna have ‘em answered right there.

In Daniel Radosh’s book (interview in podcast), he comes across concerns from evangelicals, over and over, about teenage girls and cutting.  Really, it was weird, because it was a much bigger deal for them than it is for the rest of the population, implying that it’s a bigger problem.  But really, the levels of eating disorders and cutting in the young female population shows that the last thing that young women need to hear more is that they’re dirty and unpure, because the next step for people who internalize that message is all too often to engage in self-destructive self-purification rituals.  But here we are paying for anorexia and cutting education in the abstinence-only classroom.

You know, when I hear about things like the classroom exercise described above, bulimia and cutting start to make a lot of sense to me.  At least a young woman who subjects herself to her own purity rituals can maintain some control (ideally) over her own purity and over her own rituals.  She isn’t obliged to turn both or either over to some extraneous taskmaster who decides upon her worthiness according to his whim.  She proves that she can take the matter of her own purgation in hand on her own initiative.  Of course the real issue may be the fact that she agrees that she’s in need of purgation, but at least the cutter or purger pays her sin-tax to herself, not to some individual or group that happens on by and says, in so many words, “Behold your judge”.  I’m not saying that self-cutting and self-starvation are fantastic tactics, but from my vantage point they sure look better than abject surrender——-which flat-out gets you nothin’, no matter what anyone says.

Comment #130: bekabot  on  07/09  at  12:23 AM

Having sex with someone else will only complicate the marriage and alienate your spouse, not to mention, betray the marriage.

Unless you and your spouse are both comfortable with it. I would rather my partner be having sex with someone else (but still living with me, confiding in me, etc) than that we were apart. Sometimes the non-sex parts of the marriage are more important to you, but if that’s the case then you have to let the sex parts go.

Comment #131: pepito  on  07/09  at  12:30 AM

It does seem women tend to go asexual in relationships more than men.

I really don’t think this is just because women have less social space to be sexual. I do think that shouldering the burden of the emotional work in relationships, the burden of childcare, etc., can really take a toll in this regard. When they talk about how men who do housework get more sex, well, duh - nothing turns me on like resenting the fuck out of my partner. Also, if we go back to the statistic that more women initiate divorce, it would appear that women experience more dissatisfaction in their relationships with men, and if you’ve lost respect or affection for your partner, that obviously would affect your libido. All of those are more justifiable reasons for lack of interest, but it can also be self-reinforcing - the less you have sex, the more negative you feel about your partner and on and on. Obviously, I’m not talking about couples who see their sex drives decline more or less together and are okay with the situation or at least feel they can live with it.

Comment #132: chingona  on  07/09  at  01:52 AM

Just wanted to add ... in that context, there is, of course, an obligation on the part of the person who isn’t getting laid to really look at themselves and how they behave in the relationship and ask themselves if they are holding up their end of things, and if not, to try to do better, not with the goal of getting a cookie in the form of sex, but with the goal of mending the relationship (if that is what they want or if it’s possible - maybe you just realize that you’ve both changed a lot and you move on).

Comment #133: chingona  on  07/09  at  02:33 AM

chingona: sane, sound and sensible.

The only cautionary note that I would strike is that old saw about not looking too deeply within, lest the answer lie without, and not looking too far without, lest the answer lie within.  Meaning, here, that sometimes the problem is the former, the other spouse, and you and others have covered that so well I need add nothing. 

But sometimes the problem lies within the refusing spouse, who may or may not even be aware of this as they try to “fix” the refused spouse, not realizing that they have to address things within themselves.  One of the more tragic side effects of this is anger as the refused spouse starts to perceive their good faith efforts to change as being more like a doggy being forced to jump through hoops in the hope of a never-received treat; there’s always another hoop after the last one.  If that dynamic sets in then the emotional damage is probably too deep to repair; the refused spouse is bitterly resentful of having their efforts turned into what they see as yet another excuse, yet another delaying tactic; they see it as a betrayal of trust and faith.  This is not to say that the refusing spouse is doing this deliberately; I’d say that that is a minority of such cases and even there it may not be cruelty but mere pigheaded refusal to look inside and even consider that they might have/be the problem.  Yes, there are people who won’t sleep with their spouse, know that it’s for their own reasons but nonetheless lay the blame on their spouse, but they are a small number of very troubled or very manipulative people; emotional abusers, basically.  No, the more usual dynamic is that the refusing spouse genuinely believes that addressing problem X will solve the problem; dammit!  it doesn’!  it must be Y; dammit!  it doesn’!  it must be Z… and so on, with everybody getting more miserable as it progresses.

This is where one must beware of therapists; they too-often accept the frame that the clients bring in.  So, if the couple themselves thinks that spouse A is the problem then many, many therapists don’t dig any deeper to see if it might truly be B.  It’s shocking how lazy or surface-accepting many of them are.  Dan Savage has cautioned in one of his podcasts that in caes of withdrawing from sex you have to look carefully for a therapist that doesn’t “just blame the man”; he may be right but I don’t know if I agree with him.  The more usual problem, in my experience is the difference in communication between men and women.  As noted in the previous and contentious thread, women are more used to and more practiced at (and prefer?) more in-depth relationship problem-solving communication than men.  This characteristic is shared by most therapists.  What happens then is that since the therapist and the woman are “speaking the same language” the sessions take on a dynamic where the husband is seen as the problem to be solved, with the woman and the therapist (male or female) working cooperatively towards this shared end in a happy partnership ... happy for everybody but the man.  (I don’t limit this dynamic to people in no-sex marriages; the problem extends to other relationship conflicts as well.)  Where it’s REALLY noticeable is where the wife has picked the therapist; in the end I got to the stage where I was wary of any therapist who’d been picked by one party, or where they had had a long conversation with one party first.

I draw this gender line because I had no experiences where the genders were flipped, where the man picked the therapist, the therapist assumed that the woman was wrong; others no doubt have, and I’ve seen people comment on just that problem on the net.  The dividing line seems to be that a man who does this is more often deliberately looking to manipulate / control than the women; the commonality is a therapist who is blithely unconcerned with being in the pocket of one of the parties.

Comment #134: seeker6079  on  07/09  at  10:11 AM

The dividing line seems to be that a man who does this is more often deliberately looking to manipulate / control than the women; the commonality is a therapist who is blithely unconcerned with being in the pocket of one of the parties.

Now that I think about it, this is precisely the dynamic that I would most fear in the case of a faith-centered counsellor in a fundamentalist dynamic.  Hell, does anybody remember that counsellor who became a Minister then promptly used information obtained in his sessions to Shame one of his female congregation?

Comment #135: seeker6079  on  07/09  at  10:19 AM

Apparently my parents once went to a counselor who blamed my mother for everything because she was too uppity, feminist, etc. My father got so mad that he actually walked out in the middle of the session. He wasn’t sure what the problem was, but he was pretty sure it wasn’t that my mom was a feminist. I don’t know how they chose the guy, but I’m pretty sure he wasn’t faith-based, as my parents are pretty anti-faith-based. But this was back in the early 1980s. I wonder if the percentage of therapists out there doing work in the general population who would do something like that is much lower than it was, and more of the people with that world-view would go into faith-based work.

Anyway, the only cavaet I would add to everything I said above in all my comments is that many, many people, myself included, are not as sound and logical and objective when actually functioning inside their relationships as the scenarios I created above. As I said in an earlier comment, being open and honest can become very difficult when your default frame is preserve the relationship, and it can be really easy to lose sight of the question “but at what cost?” And obviously, as seeker pointed out, once you have kids, that cost-benefit analysis shifts significantly.

Comment #136: chingona  on  07/09  at  11:09 AM

chingona: good for your dad on calling out the therapist on bullshit even though it was flowing in his favour. 

What’s vexing about some counselors is that they hate to be called out on their biases and incompetence.  That’s fine when it is a private retainer, when you can go out the door and find somebody better, then no problem.  But when it’s sessions taking place in the context of a divorce or custody proceeding it can be a nightmare: the therapist who has been called out on his/her crap writes reports for the court which paints the complaining partner as not only the problem, but hostile to the process as well, which judges don’t like.  In essence, the maligned spouse is held hostage. The only time this doesn’t work is where the therapist’s conclusions are at such odds with the rest of the evidence that the judge gets a much-needed attack of WTF???? caused by those reports seeming to exist on a different planet from the other evidence before her.

Comment #137: seeker6079  on  07/09  at  11:23 AM

Oh, don’t even get me started on therapists. The idea of paying someone lots of money to have them tell you what to do, even when they don’t necessarily have the education to back it up, is ridiculous at best.
The last therapist I went to told me that I was doing everything I should for my anxiety and depression, and the only other option was drugs. Hmm… so, what was the point of this session, Herr Doktor?
Truth is, unless your therapist has a doctorate, he/she probably isn’t qualified, and even then… you still need to really do some serious digging. Otherwise, you’ll have better accuracy shaking the magic 8 ball.

Comment #138: The Mad Child  on  07/09  at  02:52 PM
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