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Next entry: Someone tell Robert Gibbs: Jerry’s dead.  Everyone’s gone home. Previous entry: Mad Men Monday: What I want vs. what’s expected of me vs. ?

Gay marriage and the patriarchy shell game

Adam Serwer and Steve Benen have had their fun attacking the logic of Ross Douthat’s incoherent anti-gay marriage column, and now it’s my turn.  Douthat is caught up in a trap that catches many, probably most conservatives.  The official values, as I’ve said before, or our nation are liberal values.  We believe in equality and justice.  So conservatives who want to argue for inequality have to work themselves into pretzels trying to claim that inequalities we see aren’t really inequalities.  Often, this works well enough to convince people that are mostly invested in preserving inequalities that they aren’t bad people, but sometimes the logic is so inane, that even people who harbor prejudice can’t be convinced.  (Such as when you’re talking about segregation under the “separate but equal” rationalization.)  We’ve come to that point with gay marriage.

Judge Walker did us all a favor by attacking the issue head on, using feminist arguments grounded in equality to make his point.  Since Walker brought feminism and women’s equality into this, conservatives are put in a position where they have to argue for the primacy of patriarchal marriage while pretending that they support egalitarian marriages, though this is a direct contradiction.  The way they play this game is, as usual, to play the “patriarchy? I don’t see no stinking patriarchy!” card, trying to argue that feminists made up “the patriarchy” in order to pretend women are victims, though they sometimes will admit that there was a patriarchy at some point in time, or that other countries that they wish to invade do have patriarchies, but we don’t. Douthat spews this nonsense all over his incoherent column, often contradicting himself directly.

He wants to be taken seriously, so he concedes that there was such a thing as a patriarchal marriage, though he doesn’t use that term.  But after immediately conceding that “traditional” marriage doesn’t necessarily mean monogamous marriage or the nuclear family, he switches straight into patriarchy-denial mode:

Nor is lifelong heterosexual monogamy obviously natural in the way that most Americans understand the term. If “natural” is defined to mean “congruent with our biological instincts,” it’s arguably one of the more unnatural arrangements imaginable. In crudely Darwinian terms, it cuts against both the male impulse toward promiscuity and the female interest in mating with the highest-status male available. Hence the historic prevalence of polygamy.

This is a favorite patriarchy denial tactic, though you rarely see it get so boldly stupid.  The idea is to deny that there’s a long history of this thing called a “patriarchy”, where men own and control women’s bodies through economic, social, and violent means, and instead argue that inequalities that exist are strictly due to inherent desires and lack of intelligence on women’s part.  In this case, Douthat’s going so far as to argue that polygamy is the result of women’s natural desires to be sexually exclusive plus greedy.  This, of course, is so incorrect as to be laughable.  Polygamy is a logical outcome of assuming one gender is human and the other is functionally livestock to be collected and sold by the human gender.  Women didn’t invent polygamy in order to make life easier for men and their pockets fatter.  But it is amusing to realize that Douthat thinks that those Mormon polygamists marry off 12-year-old girls to 70-year-old men because this reflects a 12-year-old girl’s innate, biological (Darwinian!) desire to get it on with a wrinkly old misogynist. 

So what are gay marriage’s opponents really defending, if not some universal, biologically inevitable institution? It’s a particular vision of marriage, rooted in a particular tradition, that establishes a particular sexual ideal.

Which is to say, Douthat’s arguing that since evil old patriarchy is our natural inclination, our ideal of marriage is a way to fight back against our deepest, ugliest natures.  Marriage is great because it’s anti-nature!  Of course, this doesn’t explain why it has to be male-female.  Nor does it explain why money-grubbing monogamist women have to swear to be faithful (and often fail), when the only person whose nature is being thwarted are promiscuous men.  (I’m beginning to feel like I have to blame the wives of conservative men for the current state of evo psych blather.  By taking on the duty of being good, reassuring wives all the time, their poor husbands are convinced that their wives never look sideways, and therefore feel assured when they claim that women’s nature is to be monogamous to men who are promiscuous. If women married to conservative men told the truth about how much they look, perhaps said men wouldn’t spout bullshit with such self-assurance.) 

The point of this ideal is not that other relationships have no value, or that only nuclear families can rear children successfully. Rather, it’s that lifelong heterosexual monogamy at its best can offer something distinctive and remarkable — a microcosm of civilization, and an organic connection between human generations — that makes it worthy of distinctive recognition and support.

So, Western marriage is basically an imposition of civilization over our natural desires (as defined by Douthat), but the reason that it has to be male/female is because that’s the combo that produces natural children, right?  So, marriage is good because it’s unnatural, but it’s actually because it’s natural.  It’s both at once and nothing at all!  Just as long as the gays don’t get a piece of it.

As the fact-finding in the Prop 8 case found, this argument is groundless.  They have yet to find one divorce caused by gay marriage.  The notion that straight married people will somehow lose support if gay people can get married makes about as much sense as arguing that 12-year-old girls, given the choice, prefer to leave childhood to wear prairie dresses while waiting on and having sex with old men.

Again, this is not how many cultures approach marriage. It’s a particularly Western understanding, derived from Jewish and Christian beliefs about the order of creation, and supplemented by later ideas about romantic love, the rights of children, and the equality of the sexes.

Ah-ha!  So Douthat will admit that there is such thing as a patriarchy that opposes the idea of equality between the sexes.  But he claims that Jewish and Christian tradition holds that women are equal to men, something many people who actually study the Bible will be surprised to discover.  For instance, I’m amused every time I hear some ahistorical wingnut trying to claim that this passage in the Bible isn’t anti-equality: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”  Presumably, they also think there was nothing anti-feminist about laws forbidding married women to own property, or laws that forbade all women from voting. That’s not patriarchy!  Patriarchy doesn’t exist and/or is something other people conservatives look down on do, right?

So, marriage is, according to Douthat, a rejection of patriarchy that doesn’t exist except when he says it does, and the equality of the sexes is best upheld by discriminating on the basis of gender when it comes to who can get married.  Also, Western civilization has created a non-patriarchal marriage by casting off the patriarchal rules of old, but the only way to preserve this precious non-patriarchal marriage is to preserve the patriarchal definition of who can get married.  Also, look over there, some dudes are kissing! *runs off*

Just kidding.  Douthat has many column inches to fill with a complete lack of understanding of history.  This was a particular favorite:

Americans already have a kind of postmodern polygamy available to them. It’s just spread over the course of a lifetime, rather than concentrated in a “Big Love”-style menage.

Of course, working under the assumption that women are naturally monogamous and men are naturally promiscuous, god only knows who he thinks these men are screwing around with in this “postmodern” (another word he doesn’t understand) polygamist world.  Does Douthat believe that Western men surround themselves with harems of loyal women who sit around all day working on their pop art collections, in between having discussions of deconstructionism?  That does sound like liberal decadence, but it also doesn’t sound like reality. 

If this newer order completely vanquishes the older marital ideal, then gay marriage will become not only acceptable but morally necessary. The lifelong commitment of a gay couple is more impressive than the serial monogamy of straights.

Wait, is he suggesting that serial monogamy is the new version of polygamy, then?  It’s a popular fantasy on the right that American men go through a series of marriages to increasingly younger women, but honestly, I’ve not seen any real evidence of this.  Maybe with a handful of rich playboys, but most of us tend to pair off with people our own ages, even when we’re older.  That you see more elderly single women than elderly single men has more to do with the fact that there are more elderly women, period—-widows outnumber widowers.  But I do see why, if he thinks that men sleep with women and then abandon them, leaving them all used up and unable to partner with someone else, that we may have to move towards greater acceptance of gay marriage.  After all, that means all the women get used up pretty much immediately, and so dudes will be left having to all marry each other.

But if we just accept this shift, we’re giving up on one of the great ideas of Western civilization: the celebration of lifelong heterosexual monogamy as a unique and indispensable estate. That ideal is still worth honoring, and still worth striving to preserve. And preserving it ultimately requires some public acknowledgment that heterosexual unions and gay relationships are different: similar in emotional commitment, but distinct both in their challenges and their potential fruit.

But what are these differences?  Douthat shits on adoptive parents of every sexual orientation by suggesting that it’s because straight marriages produce “fruit”, i.e. children, but of course, we let infertile and elderly straight people marry.  Since Douthat tries to argue that Western marriage is imposing an unnatural structure on people whose natural urges run contrary to it, then his sudden obsession with the “natural” production of children makes no sense at all.  Wouldn’t a gay couple who is committed to raising a family resemble his unnatural ideal more than a childless straight couple that’s into swinging?  And yet the latter has the right to marry and the former doesn’t. 

He can’t have it both ways.  Either his ideal of marriage is a supposedly Western post-patriarchal one centered on romantic love, equality, and family where illogical arguments about nature are less relevant than ideals about love and commitment—-which would mean that gay marriage fits neatly into the equation—-or he can have a patriarchal marriage where gender differences are paramount because marriage is about male control over female bodies, and women are considered second class citizens at best, but are functionally breeding chattel.  Considering Douthat’s long-standing loathing of abortion and contraception, we know that he really is for the latter, but like the squirrelly little coward he is, he won’t just come out and say it. 

I’ve been fascinated at how Judge Walker’s decision has created this problem for conservatives, though.  By making the issue of gender inequality the centerpiece of his decision, he’s put conservatives in a camp where they have to argue either a) gender inequality is inevitable or good or b) that erasing gender roles from legal marriage doesn’t have the implication that gender roles have been erased from legal marriage.  The latter position, which is what Douthat is stabbing at, is incoherent.  The former tends to be a little more coherent from a logical viewpoint.  Take this asshole, for instance, who argues that male control of female sexuality and male domination is inevitable, so marriage needs to be preserved for male/female pairings because it’s the kindest, gentlest form of male dominance over women.  He gets points for being consistent, but of course his argument will have no traction in a society that believes in formal equality between men and women.  Also, since we allow single women to live alone and they don’t slip into concubinage, this argument he makes isn’t going to pass the reality based test:

What protects women, ultimately, is that marriage laws and customs confer upon her independence something extra – dignity, protection, sacredness – that others must respect.

His argument is that marriage protects women from the hoardes of humping man-dogs out there, because supposedly a man has to be nice to his wife.  Never mind that the traditional marriage these wingnuts love so much is one where men had the legal right to rape their wives and women’s “dignity” amounted to having to clean up after a man without much in the way of thanks.  But this argument, as I’m sure Douthat is aware, falls apart in a society where single women actually outnumber married women.  The notion that more than half of American women are basically living debased existences without dignity, where, as this dipshit implies, we’re basically getting raped non-stop?  It’s easy to disprove that by pointing to the mundane and dignified realities of actual single women.  The notion that a man or multiple men have control over women’s bodies no matter what, and that marriage is the only way to make that gentler, makes no sense in our era.  Nor does the suggestion that men will stop being nice to their wives if men can marry men and women can marry women.

But it is very interesting, isn’t it, that making an explicitly feminist argument for same-sex marriage is turning out to be the death blow for the last semblance of logic in anti-gay marriage arguments?  Once you hit them with equality and fairness—-and our national commitment to not having marriage as an institution of women’s oppression—-they have no idea what to say.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 04:02 PM • (120) Comments

Hey its hard out there as the unofficial official Catholic at the New York Times!  I mean you have to try to adapt a set of beliefs that the Church itself never followed to a world that isn’t under the thumb of the Church.

Comment #1: Robert  on  08/09  at  06:14 PM

I always like it when men claim that women are naturally monogamous and men have to fool around given that the two genders exist in roughly equal numbers.

I read the CSM peice earlier and was going to try to bring it up in another thread here, so I am really glad you read it. It was so full of fail. You really can’t even take on the argument because the author didn’t make any argument. His case rests on two assumptions: marriage protects women, and gay marriage some how diminishes the protective strenght of hetero marriage. He doesnt even attempt to make either case. It is just a bunch of psuedo-feminist babble about how queer folks and ladies are just too good to have rights so we best leave civil liberties for those terrible straight men. I really wish he would have at least attempted to describe what marriage protects women from and how though, because it would be interesting to look at whether marriage is a necessary institution for anyone.

Comment #2: alysia  on  08/09  at  06:23 PM

Douthat always pisses me off, and I knew better to read his column today. And yet I did it anyway. Maybe if I had a husband he could order me not to do stupid stuff like that…

I have to say, I really, really hate that evo-psych argument. Because even if you accept the idea that women are wholly driven by their “selfish genes.” And even if you forget that being the fifth wife of a well-off man may not actually advantage your offspring more than being the only wife of a poorer man (apparently Douthat ignores all those polygamists on Welfare and food stamps). You still come down to the premise that women will be faithful in those polygamous marriages, even though the selfish genes that goad them into marrying a rich dude would also lead to them to screwing around with the more fit help. And then who are all those nonmarried men screwing? Oy. The stupid, it hurts.

Comment #3: rivki  on  08/09  at  06:23 PM

#3, If i ever get married I am totally adding a “sheild me from douthat” clause to my vows.

Comment #4: alysia  on  08/09  at  06:25 PM

Here’s the amazing line from CSMonitor article you linked to:

Of course, marriage’s power to protect women is far from perfect, but no human institution is. Parents, too, sometimes do awful things to their children.

 

Wow.  Also, if marriage is about protecting women from men, then I don’t understand why he wouldn’t be in favor of at least lesbian marriage, nor why every woman in his world wouldn’t want a sacred, marital protection from a world of rapists by lesbian-marrying.

Comment #5: Loch Ness Monster  on  08/09  at  06:26 PM

“And preserving it ultimately requires some public acknowledgment that heterosexual unions and gay relationships are different: similar in emotional commitment, but distinct both in their challenges and their potential fruit.”

Freudian slip?  “Fruit” as in homosexual?  As in he believes the children of gay marriages will end up gay?

Somebody could make a great book psychoanalyzing DoucheHat’s mental state from the clues he leaves in his bird-cage-lining opinion columns…

Comment #6: MikeEss  on  08/09  at  06:31 PM

I think this may be a mortal blow to Patriarchy in this country, and they are freaking reeling.  They don’t know whether to shit or wind their watches, as my grandma used to say.  A saying that doesn’t make any sense and yet manages to be so exactly right.

I was laughing over Ross “i’ll do anything for love but I won’t” douthat’s column with a friend earlier today.

I mean, does he know he’s a laughingstock?

Comment #7: JennyLI  on  08/09  at  06:44 PM

Take this asshole, for instance, who argues that male control of female sexuality and male domination is inevitable, so marriage needs to be preserved for male/female pairings because it’s the kindest, gentlest form of male dominance over women.  He gets points for being consistent, but of course his argument will have no traction in a society that believes in formal equality between men and women.

A society that pays lip service to formal equality between men and women, perhaps.

But smile sweetly and say “I’m equal because I have a gun”.  Then watch them try to reconcile their fantasies about firearms with those of women’s natural and unending servitude.

Comment #8: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/09  at  07:07 PM

Actually, wingnuts tend to sexually fetishize women with guns, believe it or not.  It’s such a powerful phallic symbol to them that they get excited seeing a woman touch a gun.

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/09  at  07:16 PM

Wow, that Sam Shulman character is a nasty piece of work.  Talk about taking a gigantic shit on women. 

But I don’t think his argument is that marriage forces men to be nice to their wives.  Maybe that’s part of it, but I also think he is saying that marriage forces other men to be nice to women by marking women as belonging to particular men.  His argument is that men aren’t going to try to rape or seduce women who belong to other men - that’s the increased sacredness and dignity we women get when we marry. 

In addition to being reality-impaired, I don’t quite see the logic.  I don’t see how horndog down the street is going to be less likely to come on to Mrs. So-and-so just because Adam and Steve can now get married.  Also this bit makes no sense:

Marriage is not about couples or lovers – it’s about the physical and moral integrity of women. When a woman’s sexuality is involved, human communities must deal with a malign force that an individual woman and her family cannot control or protect.

So is the “malign force” the desire of men to rape women or is it women’s sexuality?  The idea that it is something to be protected implies that women’s sexuality is the “malign force.”  Nice.  The part about protecting the “moral integrity” of women is ominous too.  It almost sounds as though he is saying that women need to be married off to protect them from their own choices, which would likely be immoral.  But I am only guessing. This guy is about as clear as mud and the main thing I got outof his pieces was that bitches ain’t shit.

Comment #10: Laurie  on  08/09  at  07:17 PM

It’s a particularly Western understanding, derived from Jewish and Christian beliefs about the order of creation, and supplemented by later ideas about romantic love, the rights of children, and the equality of the sexes.

No you ignorant prat, western marriage derives from the same wellspring as the rest of western contractual law: ROME. Serial monogamy, at the latest, was legislated in the Twelve Tablets ca. 450 BCE while polygamy didn’t phase out of Hebrew marriage until the Hellenistic/Intertestimental period (4th-3rd century).

And Roman marriage was explicitly patriarchal due to the institution of tutela perpetua mulierum, “the perpetual guardianship of women”, in which all women had to be under the manus of a paterfamilias or, usually in the case of fatherless widows, a male tutor (Vestals, for instance, were under the manus of the Pontifex Maximus).

Where the hell did these wingnuts get the idea that the Levant was somehow in the west anyways?

Comment #11: Sarcastro  on  08/09  at  07:19 PM

Actually, wingnuts tend to sexually fetishize women with guns, believe it or not.  It’s such a powerful phallic symbol to them that they get excited seeing a woman touch a gun.

As long as you’re wearing a bikini and simpering for the camera, dear.  I suspect their reaction to a stroppy feminazi with a pistol may be a bit different.

Comment #12: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/09  at  07:20 PM

@7 heh, I read your post far too quickly the first time through, and thought you said “they don’t know whether to shit or hunt witches.”  But that misreading is surprisingly appropriate.

Comment #13: Jake  on  08/09  at  07:32 PM

The CSM piece made me want to puke.  Who was there to protect me from my ex-husband? 

Yeah, right.

It also reeks of that patriarchal “But we put you on a pedestal!” condescension. 

Amanda, it is terribly amusing for the Reich to attempt to make logical arguments to get out from under Judge Walker’s lovely logic.  They just can’t do it.

Comment #14: BetsyTX  on  08/09  at  07:34 PM

Don’t call me “dear”.  Like Joan, I will toss that thorny shit right in your face.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/09  at  07:43 PM

You’re right, Laurie.  He’s imagining a world where a woman gets sexually abused by one man in exchange for protection from sexual abuse by all men.  The idea that sex isn’t necessarily degrading and abusive to women doesn’t factor.  Lesbians, as usual, are ignored for expedience.

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/09  at  07:44 PM

Sweet Jesus.  So I hunted for more of Sam Schulman’s writing and found this much longer and perhaps even more God-awful article:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/533narty.asp?page=5

He actually defends marriage as an institution for “controlling” and “exploiting” female sexuality.  Yep! He uses those exact words! He waxes nostalgic for the angry father with the shotgun and the hectoring relatives telling women to make their men put a ring on it.  He also makes a really weird argument that somehow heterosexual marriage forces its participants to be nice to their in-laws, and for some reason that I can’t follow, he presums that this obligation does not fall upon gay marrieds. 

This guy also admits to being such a defender of traditional marriage that he’s done it three—yes, three -times. Somehow, I don’t think he was widowed.  But then just to put the cherry on the misogyny sundae, he ends his pieces with this gem.  Apparently, his real argument is that gay marriage fails to honor the huge sacrifice men make by deigning to marry women:

Every day thousands of ordinary heterosexual men surrender the dream of gratifying our immediate erotic desires. Instead, heroically, resignedly, we march up the aisle with our new brides, starting out upon what that cad poet Shelley called the longest journey, attired in the chains of the kinship system—a system from which you have been spared. Imitate our self-surrender.

Comment #17: Laurie  on  08/09  at  07:49 PM

I want to see these guys write their real beliefs into the marriage vows. 

“Do you, Sam, promise to view your wife as a burden, an impediment to your erotic fulfillment, and an object of your continual resentment tinged with feelings of superiority to this subhuman object whose uterus you control, as long as it pleases you and until you find another uterus you wish to control?”

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/09  at  07:54 PM

Don’t call me “dear”.

I’m starting to turn into my own grandparents before my eyes.

Like Joan, I will toss that thorny shit right in your face.

Joan?

Comment #19: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/09  at  07:54 PM

Republicans are in such a bind.  Their main selling point (other than to millionaires) is their racism, sexism, and queer-phobia, but they’re not allowed to come out and say it because of their hated “political correctness”.  So they have to perform gymnastics like Ross Douthat here and disguise the hate as a treatise on sociology or something to throw people off the trail.  That’s why you can debunk every argument they throw out there and they’ll still act like they’ve won.  Because you still haven’t touched their REAL argument—their private belief, which they consider to be held by a vast, silent majority and to be firmly supported by biology and the social sciences, that queer people are unnatural, women are inferior, and people of color are criminals.

Comment #20: ryang  on  08/09  at  07:54 PM

Joke about “Mad Men”, Piator.  If you didn’t see it, Joan responds to her boss sending her flowers with a note that calls her “darling” by flinging them in his face and saying, “I’m not your darling,” and some more stuff about how she’s not incompetent, inferior, or stupid.  Turns out that the note was mixed up and he didn’t call her darling, but it was still kinda awesome to see someone flip out at the casual way terms of endearment are used to insult women’s authority and intelligence.

Comment #21: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/09  at  08:00 PM

Here’s another great quote from Sam Schulman’s ‘09 anti-Gay-Marriage rant in the Weakly Standhard:
“If gay men and women could see the price that humanity—particularly the women and children among us—will pay, simply in order that a gay person can say of someone she already loves with perfect competence, “Hey, meet the missus!”—no doubt they will think again. If not, we’re about to see how well humanity will do without something as basic to our existence as gravity.”

One thing’s for sure, you really have to admire the self-restraint of wingnuts when it comes to describing the future consequences of their points-of-view being ignored…

Comment #22: MikeEss  on  08/09  at  08:05 PM

My Sam Schulman obsession continues.  He addresses his two divorces by saying the following:

. . . I think that it is precisely my chequered marital history that is an argument in favor of the existence of a priviliged, sanctified, and disciplinary category called “marriage.”  If I was as bad a man as my throwaway line - which I thought would charm my opponents! - might be construed to suggest, and that even one of you suggested - that I carelessly destroyed and abandoned two families - it is precisely the existence of marriage which ensured that the shattered remnants of my families could prevent me from simply abandoning them, materially and spiritually.  (Of course, you might well imagine that the facts were different).  But one of marriage’s primordial purpose is to extend the reach of kinship and shame - which held the fort until Sin came along - to men as bad as and even worse than me.

This excerpt can be found here in comment 16:

http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/article/22912/

All I know is this guy’s writing makes me feel dirty and degraded for being a woman married to a man.  With friends like this, I don’t think traditional marriage needs any enemies!

Comment #23: Laurie  on  08/09  at  08:06 PM

Mike Ess, it is just a wish-fulfillment fantasy, isn’t it? So one’s gonna PAY, dammit!!!

Comment #24: Laurie  on  08/09  at  08:07 PM

With men like Schulman I think of what his poor wife’s families must have been growing up to see Schulman’s utter hatred for having to put up with you as something to be desired.

Comment #25: Robert  on  08/09  at  08:12 PM

“If women married to conservative men told the truth about how much they look, perhaps said men wouldn’t spout bullshit with such self-assurance.”

If women married to conservative men had the self-confidence and self-awareness to tell their husbands that, they wouldn’t be married to conservative men. If conservative men had the self-confidence and self-awareness to hear that fact without flipping their shit, they wouldn’t be conservative men.

Comment #26: heresiarch  on  08/09  at  08:27 PM

I never had the opportunity to grow up around evangelicals or mainstream American “traditional values” people, so I have to ask: does that world give lessons about how marriage is all about “becoming a man” or some such thing such that if gay people were allowed to marry, all these lesson plans would be undermined? That is the only thing I can make sense of when it comes to right wingers, because otherwise I don’t understand their “gay marriage undermines straight marriage” arguments. I get the impression that people feel that the ability to marry makes them “special,” and if gay people are allowed to marry, it is like that special treat is no longer “just for them.” Is this message transmitted explicitly, or is the outrage just part and parcel of run-of-the-mill anti gay sentiment?

Comment #27: Tyro  on  08/09  at  08:44 PM

Completely off-topic: little (polymer-clay?) couple with their pair of Siamese kitties is damn cute.

Comment #28: A Canadian Girl  on  08/09  at  08:46 PM

Oh, Sarcastro you had me at the Twelve Tablets. It also takes the wind out of their sales if you point out that the perfect submissive wife of old was property and had value as such. A Greek man could be dragged to court and sued by his in-laws for mistreating his wife. A Roman woman could leverage her value in both reputation and dowry as part of securing or dissolving a marriage and she would be expected to do so. Our Western ancestors were litigious folk and the marriage contract was just as messy a dealing as any other legal process.

Comment #29: scrumby  on  08/09  at  08:47 PM

“I’m not your darling and I don’t want your kisses!”

Comment #30: JilliefromChile  on  08/09  at  08:59 PM

I love it when Ross Douthat spouts nonsense. I don’t know, there’s just something really…entertaining, about watching him chase his own tail.

Comment #31: Alyson Miers  on  08/09  at  09:04 PM

I’m still back on the idea that, legally speaking, we honor this institution most (by putting the taxpayer’s money where Douthat’s mouth is) (uh) only when one of the marriage partners gets paid way more than the other. If it’s a truly egalitarian marriage, legally speaking, we penalize it.

Comment #32: paul  on  08/09  at  09:12 PM

Why do you dislike Douhat so much?

I’m not disagreeing or anything and I get that he wrong and all over the place, I’m just wondering where the antipathy comes from. I look at him and see social conservative shill no. 2457. I usually get about 1/2 way through anything he writes before remembering that I couldn’t be bothered but you have posted pretty long critiques of his “opinions”. Its not that I think what you’re saying isn’t accurate or that it isn’t interesting to read I’m just saying its like using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, so why the sledgehammer?

Comment #33: pharmakos  on  08/09  at  09:19 PM

Okay, so D-Hat being a D-nozzle, not surprised.  Basically anything I had to say about it has already been said better.  But that Schulman… thing… just, wow.  I feel mildly violated after reading that, like I was staring into the goatse of his mind.  Even /b/ doesn’t do that to me.  It’s like he sees the world as a huge communal harem, and every woman in it is fair game until purchased by a male owner. 

Unfortunately, like the magic eye goatse (it exists), I can’t. look. away.  It borders on clinically fascinating.  This guy isn’t just sexually repressed, he’s proudly sexually repressed.  From his “review” of God Is Not Great in Commentary:

Take, for instance, the phenomenon of sexual repression, which Hitchens blames on religion and regards (it goes without saying) as an unmitigated evil. But sexual repression, in one form or another, has characterized every human community in history, and always will. Religion can be a highly efficient means of enforcing sexual repression; but if it did not exist, some other means would have been found to impose limitations on the expression of human sexuality.

And there’s another excretion of his at Jewish World Review where he actually manages to make Mickey Kaus look good.  I did not think that was possible.

Must… stop… reading…

Comment #34: Jewbacca  on  08/09  at  09:31 PM

“Why do you dislike Douhat so much?”

...well, for one thing he occupies some of the most valuable real estate in the media (non-TV) world, and yet he uses it for crap you could get from from all sorts of wingnut sources. 

Add in David Fucking Brooks (hat tip to Driftglass for that name) also taking up valuable space to shill Republican talking points, and Maureen Dowd doing her Cokie Roberts impression, there is a whole lot of opinionatin’ going on in the Times that is either pretty well worthless (best case) or actively harming this country’s political environment. 

Is that enough reason to dislike that unworthy young man?...

Comment #35: MikeEss  on  08/09  at  09:32 PM

pharmakos, I don’t usually respond to the “I, a blog reader, am going to insist you explain this troubling tendency of yours to write blogs” comments, but I have to point out, in case you didn’t notice, that this douchebag is the youngest ever columnist hired by the NY Times, and he has one of the biggest platforms in the country to spread his nonsense.  Holding the NY Times accountable for this bad decision is paramount.

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/09  at  09:35 PM

“But sexual repression, in one form or another, has characterized every human community in history, and always will. Religion can be a highly efficient means of enforcing sexual repression; but if it did not exist, some other means would have been found to impose limitations on the expression of human sexuality.”

...‘cause if we weren’t sexually repressed, we’d all turn into Caligula or something?  Or is that just in his fantasies?...

Comment #37: MikeEss  on  08/09  at  09:36 PM

No, Mike, if we weren’t sexually repressed we’d turn into the ancient greks and invent democracy. Feel the fear.

Comment #38: paul  on  08/09  at  09:46 PM

Well, if you take him at his word on the sexual repression, then yes, I suppose that is his fantasy.

And I just can’t quit.  This guy is amazingly fucked up.  Check out his last JWR article before 9/11 (it then turned to all 9/11 all the time):

Let me translate: these are health issues. When a woman innocently complains about a setback at work, she places her husband or boyfriend at risk. It would be far better for us men if women were to light a cigarette and blow smoke in our faces, rather than indulge in such deadly and selfish griping.

He means that in all seriousness, and dare I say it’s only downhill from there.

Comment #39: Jewbacca  on  08/09  at  09:50 PM

pharmakos, I don’t usually respond to the “I, a blog reader, am going to insist you explain this troubling tendency of yours to write blogs” comments,

Sorry, I didn’t mean for it to come across that way. Wasn’t my intention to be insisting, I was going more for is he a terrible person in a way that I’m not aware of.

I was thinking about Matt Taibbi’s blog and he has major issues with Brooks and Friedman that go beyond them just having bad opinions. He thinks one is a bootlicker and the other is just a horrible horrible writer.

Is pointing out he’s not much of a thinker the way to go to hold the nytimes accountable though? They want something resembling “fair and balanced” and conservatives can be pretty interchangeable. I don’t have a better idea and I’m not insisting on an answer or anything. Just wondering out loud.

Comment #40: pharmakos  on  08/09  at  09:50 PM

“When a woman innocently complains about a setback at work, she places her husband or boyfriend at risk. It would be far better for us men if women were to light a cigarette and blow smoke in our faces, rather than indulge in such deadly and selfish griping.”

That is truly fucked up.  “Shut the fuck up, bitch!”, is not usually a productive way to maintain a relationship, in my experience.

I knew conservatives wanted to take us back to the ‘50s, and I’m thinking Buddy Holly and Elvis.  But they mean the 1850’s, or the 1750’s, or the 1650’s…

Comment #41: MikeEss  on  08/09  at  09:58 PM

Amanda, the NY Times hired Bill Kristol.  Bill Kristol!  I just don’t think they give a shit about accountability, and I haven’t thought so since they allowed Dick Cheney to plant “anonymous” stories on their front pages and then go on Meet the Press to say “even the liberal NY Times reported this morning…”

Which played a big role in our invading Iraq.

I’m so used to their yearly prick conservative (Tierney, Kristol, Douthat).  If you blink, they’re gone, and he’ll be gone soon too.  Maureen Dowd using that space to write the absolute shit that she produces week after week, bothers me a lot more.

I didn’t know that Douthat was their youngest columinist ever though.  And I still email the editor pointing out what an dickweed he is.  But when they don’t renew his contract they’re just going to bring in some other douchebag, and none of the will ever be anything other than sexist.

You could say they make up for this by publishing Paul Krugman and Bob Herbert, two must-reads.  But it doesn’t really make up for all of their shit over the years.

But I do love your pieces about him, he so richly deserves them.

Comment #42: JennyLI  on  08/09  at  10:00 PM

Joke about “Mad Men”, Piator.

Noted.  Haven’t been able to watch it.

Hey, why is everybody picking up stones and eyeing me thoughtfully?

Turns out that the note was mixed up and he didn’t call her darling, but it was still kinda awesome to see someone flip out at the casual way terms of endearment are used to insult women’s authority and intelligence.

Heh.  Nah, it’s me adopting my mental bifocals and slipping into my gray-haired slightly-beyond-middle-aged librarian persona.

Comment #43: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/09  at  10:01 PM

“Wow Amanda, now we like to rape our wives?”

Whether or not you like doing it is irrelevant.  What is fact is that until very recently, in this country, men absolutely had the legal right to rape their wives.  Cons want to bring back traditional marriage.

Therefore the statement “never mind that the traditional marriage these wingnuts love so much is one where the men had the legal right to rape their wives” is a statement of fact.

Period. 

Crying and whining over it doesn’t change that it’s a fact.

A fact.

Comment #44: JennyLI  on  08/09  at  10:05 PM

Jewbacca,

I am glad I am not the only one who is hypnotized by this freak.  Great find on the “complaining about work” article.  How about this part:

Where we are now is best summed up by a recent headline in London’s Daily Telegraph; it caught my eye precisely because it was no surprise to me: “Career Wives Who Moan Are Danger to Men.” I’ve faced that danger time and again.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Comment #45: Laurie  on  08/09  at  10:06 PM

One thing’s for sure, you really have to admire the self-restraint of wingnuts when it comes to describing the future consequences of their points-of-view being ignored…

Because the very first thing Raging Republican Jesus is going to do when He gets back is start interrogating you about whether you’re swapping spit with a he or a she.

Comment #46: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/09  at  10:07 PM

Tyro @ 27

I think part of the appeal of homophobia to the religious right is that it is an easy sort of morality. Straight people get to feel all upstanding for not doing something they had little desire to do. There is also a lot of straight up bigotry—some people get off on oppressing others.

I think the main source of the “destroy marriage” line of thinking is that gay marriage are sort of de facto marriage between two equals. They show that marriage can exist in a non-hierarchical manner. That means that it isn’t clear whose name to take, whose job will come second, who has to clean the house and care for the kids etc.  Some people are genuinely just scared of having to make and be responsible for their own choices and would rather be told what to do. Many men are afraid of losing their privilege and having to move cross country for the wife’s career, etc.

Comment #47: alysia  on  08/09  at  10:21 PM

I suppose we’ll take it you were not ok with the supreme court making Bush president and discarding the votes of all the people who voted against him who outnumbered the people people who voted for him, oh wait. No, the opposite of that

Comment #48: pharmakos  on  08/09  at  10:23 PM

Lonnie, if you lived in CA, how would your life be changed by this??? If you have been forced to gay marry against your will, that is terribly unjust and you should try to reach out for support and help.

If not, this is the sort of thing the judiciary branch is for EXPANDING RIGHTS. Tyranny is taking rights away. Gays in CA (and across most of the nation) are victims to a tyrannical majority.

Comment #49: alysia  on  08/09  at  10:24 PM

Lonnie,

Judges are supposed to protect minorities from the tyranny of the mob.  Seven million voters don’t get to violate a minority’s constitutional rights (in this case the right to equal protection under the law).  If you don’t like it, take it up with the Founding Fathers.

Comment #50: Laurie  on  08/09  at  10:26 PM

“Do any of you have a problem with this one judge throwing out the votes of seven million people so he can impose his personal view of marriage?”

No, no one who has any historic understanding of the principles this country was founded on, or how anyone other than white men have obtained their rights in this country, could have a problem with it.

See, white men (let me guess - that’s what you are?) were born with rights.  Women and all other minorities had to fight for them.  ANd at any time, at any time, in our history, were the rights of any oppressed group to be put up for a vote, they would have been voted down.  Blacks would have been enslaved, would have continued to be lynched, would have suffered under Jim Crow.  Women would not have been given the vote by voters.  All minorities have always had to fight for their rights, to go to jail for their rights, to be beaten for their rights, to be tortured for their rights, to die for their rights.

We have a judiciary in part to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

Open a book you dumb, privileged fuck.

Comment #51: JennyLI  on  08/09  at  10:28 PM

lonnie:  If we don’t have a problem with the courts doing their job it’s probably because we have been on the losing side of votes against *our* rights.

Comment #52: bellacoker  on  08/09  at  10:30 PM

“Do any of you have a problem with this one judge throwing out the votes of seven million people so he can impose his personal view of marriage?”

...when those 7-million people voted to treat a bunch of the citizens of California as second-class, with diminished civil rights, then no I have no problem with it being thrown out at all.

If it wasn’t for judges doing what is right instead of what is politically expedient, we’d be living in a slightly more advanced version of Reconstruction, Robber-Baron, Gilded Age America, with monopolies owning us all, Jim Crow alive and well, “Separate but equal” the law of the land, children working in factories, laws forbidding marriages between whites and just about every other “race” in effect, birth control would still be illegal in most states, Blacks (and other “undesirables”) would be blocked from voting, etc. 

That world is gone — even if the Republican Party has been trying to revive it since Nixon lost to Kennedy in 1960 — and thank god it’s gone…

Comment #53: MikeEss  on  08/09  at  10:34 PM

Lonnie, try looking up “Loving v. Virginia”.

Now, tell me: should that have been put to a vote?

While you’re at it, look up “tyranny of the majority”, ya ignorant jerkwad.

Comment #54: Eric_RoM  on  08/09  at  10:39 PM

so he can impose his personal view of marriage?

Sigh. You don’t like it, so it must be his PERRRRRSONALLLLLLL VIEEEEWWWWWWW.

Because it couldn’t possibly be that a judge’s JOB is to consider whether a law is consistent with the principles set down in the Constitution. He couldn’t possibly have come to the studied and careful decision that outlawing same sex marriage is unconstitutional and a violation of the rights of a segment of the population. No, he must be imposing his PERRRRRSONALLLLLLL VIEEEEWWWWWWW.

Never mind that it was perfectly okay with you for the bigoted, misled, stupid and ignorant people of California to impose their actual personal views on their fellow citizens’ marriages. No, that was just fine. Because those were personal views you agreed with.

Lonnie, you are a festering, shit-stained, puke-scented, bigoted moron.

Comment #55: kristin  on  08/09  at  10:39 PM

I just realized that it might read like I’m calling all the people of California bigoted, misled, stupid and ignorant. Not at all! Sorry! I meant it was the bigoted, misled, stupid and/or ignorant ones who would have voted for Prop 8, and it’s the bigoted, misled, stupid and/or ignorant views that lonnie would agree with.

Comment #56: kristin  on  08/09  at  10:42 PM

Oohh! I would love to be a lower status wife of an “alpha” male of someone else’s choosing.  If we pick a tradition far enough back, I can live an exciting life of intrigue as I plot to eliminate my stepchildren while protecting my own and jockeying them into positions of influence so they can protect me from any of those stepkids I missed. 

When a woman innocently complains about a setback at work, she places her husband or boyfriend at risk. It would be far better for us men if women were to light a cigarette and blow smoke in our faces, rather than indulge in such deadly and selfish griping.

Maybe I’m missing some context here, but A) how does complaining at work hurt a husband or boyfriend who doesn’t work there, and B) who still works in a building where you can casually make your point via cigarette, assuming you have one on you?  “I just found out I make less than you!  Please step outside so I may express my dissatisfaction in a retro-erotic way!  Hold on a sec, I’m going to need a redder lipstick for this.”

Comment #57: Kyso K  on  08/09  at  10:43 PM

LOL @ # 59.  That is amazing stuff.  I can’t help wondering; is some woman actually fucking this guy?

It’s hard to believe, but so, I really have to meet her.

Comment #58: JennyLI  on  08/09  at  10:46 PM

from the Shulman ‘piece’ (snort):

In two separate studies, researchers found that successful women coped better than men with stresses in the workplace even though they earned less and took on most of the domestic responsibilities.

Sooooooooo, instead of the takeway being “Woman are BETTER at being executives than men”, it somehow magically becomes “shaddup bitch, yer killin’ yer man!” ???

Whiskey.
Tango.
Foxtrot.

Comment #59: Eric_RoM  on  08/09  at  10:52 PM

Yeah, that Sam Shulman guy made no sense.  As someone upthread pointed out the whole “malign” thing made it sound like he was describing women’s sexuality as malign.  Riiiigght.

Comment #60: Ismone  on  08/09  at  11:11 PM

I believe the official fundamentalist line is that we must oppose nature as science, but we must embrace nature as dogma.  So when it comes to determining what is right or wrong, we must avoid the natural resort to human reason, human research and human investigation.  That is wrong because it is only ‘natural’.  Only what is ‘super’natural is okay.  On the other hand, nature as dogma feels ‘unnatural’ because it is hurtful of the natural instincts to embrace natural states of social and psychological equilibrium that enhance one’s sense of well-being.  Nonetheless, one must choose to embrace this kind of normality that feels unnatural, but is actually a supernatural (dogmatic) reinforcement (from on high) of what a deity intends to be natural. 

But this is merely Christian orthodoxy.  Nothing strange out Douthat’s view.

Comment #61: scratchy888  on  08/09  at  11:23 PM

Laurie,

I know, right?  I don’t know whether to give in to my inner Beavis and lulz at him (I’m still chuckling at that line you quoted), or to unleash my inner Nietzsche and analyse the layers of deep and abiding ressentement.

His stuff on Israel (or explicitly against human rights) doesn’t have quite the same je ne c’est quoi as his misogynistic crasturbation sessions, but I’m loving his, er, creative synopsis of the formation of Israel: “Israel is a small country in a vast region whose liberty was secured by the sacrifice of soldiers from Western countries, but most of all from Britain.”  I suppose that’s one way to say “secured by terrorists murdering a bunch of Westerners, mostly from Britain.”  Actually, all that Israel stuff and his Jew-trolling just makes the yid in me want to tell him: heng dikh oyf a tsikershtrikl vestu hobn a zisn toyt.  Harsh, I know, but he’s gornisht helfn.

Must stop…

Comment #62: Jewbacca  on  08/09  at  11:39 PM

I think the main source of the “destroy marriage” line of thinking is that gay marriage are sort of de facto marriage between two equals.

I can’t recall if it was Le Guin, but there was some sf book where explorers rediscovered a planet where only females existed, reproducing with high-tech gimcrackery. There was a point of mutual incomprehension when the explorers asked about their partnerships “Who plays the husband?”

Comment #63: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/09  at  11:43 PM

Do any of you have a problem with this one judge throwing out the votes of seven million people so he can impose his personal view of marriage?  talk about judicial tyranny….

Ok this has already been smacked down but I couldn’t help thinking…

Only 7 million?  In a state of over 35 million people only 7 million voted to keep “the gays from marrying” and this is somehow the will of the people? Ouch, the tyranny comment just becomes another level of ironic with that.

Comment #64: hypatia  on  08/10  at  12:11 AM

When a woman innocently complains about a setback at work, she places her husband or boyfriend at risk. It would be far better for us men if women were to light a cigarette and blow smoke in our faces, rather than indulge in such deadly and selfish griping.

This article says a lot more about this particular author’s insecurities than anything else. This guy has serious issues.

Comment #65: Entomologista  on  08/10  at  01:08 AM

Prop 8 won because all the megachurches mobilized their flocks, and the TV commercials made Gavin Newsom look like a smug jerk. (“You’re stuck with gay marriage now! There’s not a thing you can do about it.” or some such.) Other commercials told a frightening story about little children being forced to learn about gay marriage in schools. Still it won by only 2%.

The big mistake (IMHO) the opponents made was not to put a personal face on gay couples. I think I’m fairly typical in that one lived next door, my wife worked with three (my co-workers always skewed single, so I don’t know), etc. Denying your friends’ chance at happiness is hard to do.

Comment #66: Hector B.  on  08/10  at  01:09 AM

“Rather, it’s that lifelong heterosexual monogamy at its best can offer something distinctive and remarkable ...”
Because of course there is nothing distinctive and remarkable about gay relationships! Seriously how can someone actually write this kind of nonsense and still pretend it is not absolute undeniable bigotry??
Just what is it EXACTLY is it that makes heterosexual relationships so much more distinctive and remarkable then mine?? One could just easily say that forming loving committed same-sex relationships in an anti-gay culture is incredibly distinctive and remarkable!
Oh and Lonnie, you’re a bigot and an asshat. That is all.

Comment #67: AdamN  on  08/10  at  01:48 AM

Last one I swear.  No link, no context, just two words from Mr. Schulman: “bisexual priapism”.

Comment #68: Jewbacca  on  08/10  at  02:13 AM

I think that what disturbs me most about both Schulman and Douthat is their total lack of (or failure to use) critical thinking skills.

Douthat has, I believe, an English degree from Harvard.  Schulman was apparently an English professor at Boston University.  Neither can construct a coherent argument.

Something is very wrong here.

Comment #69: Kirjava  on  08/10  at  02:22 AM

Kyso @59: Earlier in the article Schulman cites a study that shows men get stressed and depressed when their wives have problems at work. This allows him to make the leap of logic that when a wife complains about her job, it’s actually the husband who suffers more.

You see, the woman relieves her stress by talking about her setbacks. The man wants to help his poor, wittle wifey-wife out. But he can’t, because the woman just won’t listen to him. So he gets depressed.

While his wife may turn to housework to relieve her stress, his only option is martinis at the local bar.

This guy is amazing.

Comment #70: DoctorJay  on  08/10  at  02:31 AM

From Schulman:

“This withdrawing business is no joke. There was a dreadful instance in my life when a woman for whom I cared deeply insisted on telling me about her problem at work-specifically, that her bonus failed to match an amount double my entire income. Telling me about it made her feel better, no doubt, but the result was that I had to withdraw-at her insistence-into several martinis at Elaine’s.”

Oh the humanity!

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/sam/schulman072501.asp

Comment #71: DoctorJay  on  08/10  at  02:38 AM

Just what is it EXACTLY is it that makes heterosexual relationships so much more distinctive and remarkable then mine??

We get to use cheerleader outfits in our foreplay.  So there.

Comment #72: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/10  at  02:38 AM

It definitely seems odd to me that dirt-common heterosexual relationships are somehow *more* special and remarkable than much-rarer same sex relationships.

Comment #73: JilliefromChile  on  08/10  at  03:32 AM

Laurie!  Jewbacca!  Get a room, you two! 

—-A conference room, and convene the Shulman Fascination Society charter meeting.

Comment #74: Eric_RoM  on  08/10  at  03:40 AM

PIATOR,

I can’t recall if it was Le Guin, but there was some sf book where explorers rediscovered a planet where only females existed, reproducing with high-tech gimcrackery.

“The Left Hand of Darkness”.

It’s not that “only females existed”, but that all the humans had <u>both</u> male & female reproductive potential.  Their normal state was neuter, neither male nor female.

It’s a lot more subtle than that, but I wanted to rub away the gloss of “high-tech”, in favor of “genetically engineered” or at least “biological”.  It was “the anti-patriarchy”.  Which of course is the point of the book.

Comment #75: Eric_RoM  on  08/10  at  03:48 AM

@41: pharmakos - I’ll take a wild stab here and guess it’s the misogyny.

Comment #76: snobographer  on  08/10  at  05:04 AM

Piator- you can’t trick me, I’ve seen ‘But I’m a Cheerleader’.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0179116/

Comment #77: thirstygirl  on  08/10  at  05:06 AM

Eric,  Not a bad idea! I’ll bring the martinis (in honor of Mr. Schulman’s escape to Elaine’s) and everyone else can come too. 

Kirjava, I’m with you.  Schulman, in particular, is a mystery.  The very structure of his sentences and his paragraphs is convoluted and confusing.  I don’t understand how he could have had a position teaching English at a respected university, when his writing is Teh Suck. 

Douthat’s writing is much better, but he is guilty of using pretty words that sound nice but don’t mean anything.  If I were his teacher and he wrote a paper in which he argued that het marriage is “a microcosm of civilization” I would write “What does this MEAN?” in the margin in big red letters.

Comment #78: Laurie  on  08/10  at  05:13 AM

Tyro @ 27 and alysia @ 49

Homophobia, in a nutshell, is homophobic men’s fear that gay men view them the way they view women. Their jokes about gay men* usually revolve around framing them as sexual predators who will forcibly sodomize any man or boy at the drop of a set of car keys. Which has interesting similarities to their rationalizations about heterosexual rape; a woman has to be vigilant at all times or else she’s bound to get raped by the uncontrollable and shape-shifting force of male sexuality and she’ll have nobody but herself to blame! According to homophobic theory, gay men, being men, are incapable of controlling their sexual urges, putting straight men on the receiving end of the threat of rape, which is what “being the woman” is all about, which is horrifying.

When they say they hold women and their sexuality sacred, what they’re really saying is they hold women separate, because to regard women as equals and - perish the thought - empathize with them would make them pussies, manginas, bitches, nancy-boys, insert misogynist/homophobic slur here.

Homophobic women just fall for their bullshit about sacred femininity and being protected by a pedestal and go along for the ride.


*The jokes I’ve heard about lesbians have been very few and relatively innocuous. Lesbians pose no threat as to making men bitches.

Comment #79: snobographer  on  08/10  at  05:46 AM

@81 - which is why Douthat and the CSM guy are twisting themselves into logical pretzels. They’re trying to sell separatism to women as being sacred and protective, when they know it’s really condescension and a threat.

BTW I’m in San Francisco and the gay mafia hasn’t come to knock down my door and forcibly gay-marry me yet. It’s been a couple days, so I think the coast is clear.

Comment #80: snobographer  on  08/10  at  06:00 AM

Wow, Sam Schulman is my new favourite wingnut. He’s such a loon!

When a woman’s sexuality is involved, human communities must deal with a malign force that an individual woman and her family cannot control or protect.

Not a woman and her family, no; only… HUSBAND POWER! Or something.

Ah, and they say feminists hate men. We’ve got nothing on Mr Schulman and his ilk.

PIATOR @ 65: this is reminiscent of Joanna Russ, as well: the planet Whileaway, which features in her short story ‘When It Changed’ and also in the novel The Female Man. There’s a line in the latter where an Earth man, recently arrived on Whileaway, asks where all the men are; elsewhere in the novel a woman from Whileaway is questioned about who is the ‘man’ in Whileaway marriages.

Comment #81: Nic_C  on  08/10  at  06:25 AM

I always like it when men claim that women are naturally monogamous and men have to fool around given that the two genders exist in roughly equal numbers.

Well, the idea is that some men end up having to make do with no sex at all.  Those men then go on to write columns opposing marriage equality.

All I know is this guy’s writing makes me feel dirty and degraded for being a woman married to a man.  With friends like this, I don’t think traditional marriage needs any enemies!

If Schulman were right and marriage were about women trading sex for a rape-bodyguard, I would be ashamed to call myself married to my wife.

Oh, and to be a man… Come to think of it, I’d be pretty damned ashamed to be a member of such a society at all.

Comment #82: DaveL  on  08/10  at  06:46 AM

Phoenician @ #65 (and also Eric_RoM @ #77):
If I recall correctly, I think you’re referring to the excellent short story by Joanna Russ, “When It Changed,” which involves a planet inhabited solely by women who found away to overcome the need for men to reproduce (whether it was ‘high-tech’ or not, I can’t remember. Been a while since I read the story). Russ developed the theme more in her novel “The Female Man” and elsewhere.
Speaking of Le Guin, in the past 20 or so years she’s written a number of absolutely fascinating short stories in which she explores gender roles and, in this context, differing forms of “marriage.” Really thought-provoking stuff.

Comment #83: EdoBosnar  on  08/10  at  07:31 AM

@78 snobographer that’s hardly an unusual trait for a social conservative. Its probably a requirement for group membership. I was asking what makes this one distinctive and apparently its his position at the nytimes.

Comment #84: pharmakos  on  08/10  at  08:24 AM

A few years ago Dorris Lessing had a book out called The Cleft that sounds remarkably similar. The reviews said it wasn’t great so I never got around to it.

Comment #85: pharmakos  on  08/10  at  08:26 AM

If I recall correctly, I think you’re referring to the excellent short story by Joanna Russ, “When It Changed,”

That’s the one.

Comment #86: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/10  at  09:12 AM

If I were his teacher and he wrote a paper in which he argued that het marriage is “a microcosm of civilization” I would write “What does this MEAN?” in the margin in big red letters.

I can answer this one: it is Catholic short-hand. In the same way that civilization has a king, queen and subjects, the household is a mini-kingdom, with husband and wife acting as king and queen of the home, with their children as subjects.  More theologically, which Douthat wouldn’t be able to say without undermining his argument that his objections were purely religious, is that marriage is a symbol for the Church, where the husband is a Christ figure who cares for his family as Christ cares for the church.

If pressed, some would argue that the slippery slope that undermined marriage wasn’t feminism but rather the republican form of government which abandoned the monarchy.

Comment #87: Tyro  on  08/10  at  09:20 AM

Tyro,  I think you’ve nailed it.  I had a feeling it was some kind of dog-whistle.

Comment #88: Laurie  on  08/10  at  09:56 AM

Wow Amanda, now we like to rape our wives?

Gosh, I hope not.  They have the right to prosecute you now for it.  Maybe you should be careful about that one, you sadistic moron.

Comment #89: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/10  at  10:03 AM

Tsk, tsk, Amanda don’t be so cold. He’s trying to point out that it’s not that he LIKES to rape his wives, it’s just that he has to do this for their own good. It hurts him more than it hurts them, that sort of thing.

Comment #90: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/10  at  10:12 AM

Sorry, more Schulman pron:

“If job losses continue, two-income households will be forced to live on one…

On the plus side, millions of men will be spared the soul-destroying depression caused by listening with patient sympathy to the women they love.”

I’m amazed this guy was able to find a wife at all, let alone 3.

Comment #91: DoctorJay  on  08/10  at  10:20 AM

@72:  Ooooohhhhh, now I see.  Thank you for saving me the reading.  Has the man considered offering a little sympathy and a back rub?  Sometimes it’s really that simple smile  I tend to love selfish and self-absorbed men (like attracts like, but I usually get a little extra) and I have the hardest time convincing them that things like back massages tend to come back to them threefold.

Comment #92: Kyso K  on  08/10  at  10:21 AM

“If job losses continue, two-income households will be forced to live on one…

Yeah, and it might be hers.  Men got hit harder in this recession for several reasons, and one of them was the pay inequity which makes women such a great value for businesses on a budget.  Hope that patriarchy tasted good going down for these whiny douches, because it burns a little coming back up.

Comment #93: Kyso K  on  08/10  at  10:24 AM

@93: It’s a lot less surprising that he found 3 in succession that dumped him than only 1 that he’s still with.

Comment #94: BlackBloc  on  08/10  at  10:47 AM

Thanks to everyone for the amazing collection of Shulman quotes.

Comment #95: bomberE  on  08/10  at  11:18 AM

On the plus side, millions of men will be spared the soul-destroying depression caused by listening with patient sympathy to the women they love.

I don’t even know how one responds to the claim that treating your partner like a human being causes “soul-destroying depression.” You have to hate women mighty hard to hold such views.

Comment #96: Jerry Vinokurov  on  08/10  at  11:47 AM

I love it when Ross Douthat spouts nonsense. I don’t know, there’s just something really…entertaining, about watching him chase his own tail.

Rather like watching my cat chase her tail in the bathtub ... except she seems to know when to stop.

Comment #97: Ms Kate  on  08/10  at  01:59 PM

To my fellow sf-geeks:  Ugh, Russ & Lessing: I’d walk a mile to avoid their typing.

LeGuin, of course, is great.

Comment #98: Eric_RoM  on  08/10  at  02:48 PM

If you’re in the mood for some more Catholic brand anti-marriage equality arguments, check out 5 Ways to Talk to the Left about Same Sex marriage.  Prepare to wallow:

http://www.insidecatholic.com/feature/five-ways-to-talk-to-the-left-about-same-sex-marriage.html

Comment #99: Kubricks Rube  on  08/10  at  04:01 PM

“When It Changed” did an excellent job of evoking the horror of the situation: men rediscover the planet Whileaway, where loving female couples were living in happy families, raising daughters, and proceed to inform those inhabitants that of course now they’re all going to get husbands and do things in the “normal” way.

Comment #100: kristin  on  08/10  at  04:02 PM

@101 Kubricks Rube - Oh god. That whole thing. How many times can we run around in the same circles?

(aside: I see the old early-onset puberty in girls freak-out is making another round from the circular file too)

Comment #101: snobographer  on  08/10  at  05:02 PM

@Kubricks Rube #101

Holy mother of god, that was an awesome piece of condescending bullshit ... thanks for helping me wake up this afternoon smile. Possibly my favorite passage: “In the final analysis, many of these well-meaning people are unaware that their support for gay marriage would create social changes beyond what they have imagined or would favor. Rather than granting legitimacy to homosexual relationships by calling them marriages, we would be opening ourselves to a society where marriage itself has little value and no fixed meaning.”

Like, wow: really? your investment in marriage as an institution is that dependent on keeping some people out of the club?

Comment #102: annajcook  on  08/10  at  05:16 PM

#101 - anyone else get a kick out how out of the whooping 9 examples of people “harmed” by gay marriage, half of them had nothing to do with gay marriage and the rest were clear examples of bigots breaking the law and paying the price for doing so.  This is what I’m supposed to sympathize with?  LOL doubleplusfail.

Comment #103: Gypsy Lee  on  08/10  at  05:18 PM

Shulman @ CSM: But hard as it is for Walker to believe, most of us who prefer to leave marriage (with all its defects) as it is are not concerned with homosexuality at all.

We are merely voicing a sensible desire to preserve an institution that recognizes and protects the special status of women. If marriage becomes a legislative courtesy available to everyone, like a key to the city, it will be women who will lose.

As a woman in a long-term relationship (hopefully soon-to-be marriage) to another woman methinks that by “women” Shulman might actually have meant to write “cis, straight women.” Even then, the statement is still a laughable claim but I had to point it out. No way lesbians, bi, fluid, etc., women win out in a kyriarchy that supports hetero-only marriage.

It’s disheartening, as someone who used to read and admire the CSM, to find that they’re publishing something with such sloppy thinking in their pages!

Comment #104: annajcook  on  08/10  at  05:33 PM

@104&105;- Terrify your liberal friends by explaining to them that, if gay marriage is legal, children will be taught that homosexuality is normal!

Comment #105: snobographer  on  08/10  at  05:35 PM

In the comment section of the article I linked, I told him that if he’d stop lumping in same sex marriage supporters with NAMBLA, I’d stop equating his “non-bigotted” stance to Fred Phelps.

Comment #106: Kubricks Rube  on  08/10  at  05:35 PM

@ Eric_RoM #76:

Will there be cake?  I like cake.

@ Emmett #97:

Here’s one more for your reading, er… enjoyment?

But a new kind of anti-semitism may emerge in the 21st century, in reaction to the attempt to make “the Holocaust” central to our civilization. The explosion of “the joy of sex in the death camp” movies, the proliferation of Holocaust memorials and museums, the emergence of a new academic discipline detached from history called Holocaust and Genocide Studies—- all these threaten to undermine a proper understanding of the Nazi war against the Jews.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/sam/schulman011100.asp

Comment #107: Jewbacca  on  08/10  at  08:45 PM

Another take on Sam Schulman, with a closer look at his assertions:

http://thatgayblog.com/news/rebuttal-schulman

Comment #108: medievalist  on  08/10  at  09:18 PM

Here’s my take on Ross’s column:

http://thehallofmirrors.com/?p=51

Comment #109: eldepeche  on  08/11  at  12:19 AM

I always like it when men claim that women are naturally monogamous and men have to fool around given that the two genders exist in roughly equal numbers.

What I believe you’re trying to say is that if the theory were true, you’d expect a greater ratio of females to males of the given species, so that you’d have your monogamous females and polygamous males, and the fact that numbers are equal proves the theory false, yes?

That’s not actually an argument either way because of population genetics.  Note that I am NOT saying anything about the bullshit “natural monagamous/natural cheater” thing, only that the preceding argument doesn’t prove it’s false.  Here’s why: let’s assume a population ratio of 1 male to 3 females.  In order to maintain that, and ignoring infant mortality and such to keep it simple, on average 25% of the newborns would be males and 75% females.  If a given pair had 4 children, and each child had 4 children with their mate, what would the family look like?

A given pair would have 1 son and 3 daughters.  The son would have three wives, and so by himself produce 12 grandchildren (3 boys, 9 girls).  The three daughters would, in total, only produce 12 grandchildren (3 boys, 9 girls), for a total of 24 grandchildren passing on the genes of the original couple.

Now imagine that one of the original pair have a genetic difference that reverses the sex ratio: three sons and one daughter.  What happens?  Well, each son mates with three women, each woman having 4 kids, and the daughter has 4 kids, for a total of 40 grandchildren (36 from the sons, 4 from the daughter).  Now imagine that genetic difference is inherited: those 40 grandkids will consist of 30 boys and 10 girls, and those 30 boys will each have three mates and so on and you can see where this is going, right?

The same thing happens in reverse if there the sex ratio reverses (which the preceding would lead to) causing a preponderance of males: the parent(s) who “cheat” and have more daughters would have that trait passed on because the daughters are guaranteed to pass on their genes while many (most?) of the sons won’t.

Eventually you get a see-saw effect where the equilibrium point is roughly 1:1.  And you can see this in nature with species that are polygamous: if you look at mammal species where males maintain a breeding harem, on average the number of offspring are evenly split in sex even though a large portion of the sons are pretty much wasted effort because many won’t get a chance to breed.

So having equal numbers of female and male offspring actually doesn’t tell you anything one way or the other about the “natural” behaviour.

(Exceptions involving some sort of hive don’t count in this analysis.)

Comment #110: KeithM  on  08/11  at  03:11 AM

@KeithM

I think, the original point was less how could they have evolved that way and more, if it is true, how on earth could we (as a society with roughly 1:1) ever find evidence of that?

Basically, if one man, following “instinct” sleeps with three women, those women will “naturally” only sleep with him.  Eventually, (even with some “abnormal” monogamous men and some “abnormal” non-monogamous women) there are going to be many, many, many men without partners.  So, if this were the case, how would we determine what was “naturally” happening since most men would seem to be “naturally” single?

Also, what I described above is pretty demonstrably NOT happening.

Comment #111: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/11  at  09:11 AM

The point is that women and men have to have exactly the same average number of heterosexual partners. You can’t have monogamous women and polygamous men. You might have largely monogamous women and a few supersluts, but the mean number of partners must be the same because every new coupling adds one to the men’s total and one to the women’s total.

Bloody good explanation of Fisher, though!

Comment #112: MissPrism  on  08/11  at  04:57 PM

Of course, you can have monogamous women and polygamous men if, say, 90% of the men never get laid at all and the other half have ten partners. But you can’t have all men being polygamous unless the women are putting it about a bit too.

In other words: the fact that in surveys women consistently report a lot fewer sex partners than men means that either the surveys are wrongly carried out, or somebody’s lying.

Comment #113: MissPrism  on  08/11  at  05:02 PM

Coming back to this thread, because the conflation of homosexuality with hedonism which is the basis of most of these “arguments” makes my head spin. If I were a lesbian, I’d want to snuggle with other women because of a lack of restraint in following my deepest desires? What does it mean that I’d rather snuggle with my boyfriend, is that a sign of following cheap thrills and the evil ways of the flesh?

Seriously, how do they get from “same-sex attraction” to “hedonistic lack of restraint” in no moves at all? People like sex much like they like food and exercise and other fun things - it’s pretty normal to do it and enjoy it and move on to other things, like breakfast, feeding the cat, going for a run, putting the dishes away. Or was that the point of the “homosexual agenda”: sex all day long? Am confused by wingnuts.

Comment #114: CassieC  on  08/12  at  08:50 AM

The shallow, selfish caricatures of men and women that wingnuts like to paint as the “norm” makes me wonder why we should all strive to be them. Applying any thought to what the wingnuts say would leads to the conclusion that the “ideal” people are completely bloody awful.

Comment #115: Princess Rot  on  08/12  at  09:21 AM

Princess Rot, have you ever read Bernard Russells’ essay on Nice People?:

The essence of nice people is that they hate life as manifested in tendencies to co-operation, and in the boisterousness of children, and above all in sex, with the thought of which they are obsessed. In a word, nice people are those who have nasty minds.

As in our friend lonnie, for example…..........

Comment #116: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/13  at  02:05 PM

@CassieC #116

I always assume that the gay sex = orgies thing comes from the fact that same-sex attractions are grouped (in sexual conservatives’ minds) with a whole list of other sexual behaviors that are seen as sinful and wanton ... to engage in any of them is to become fallen, sinful people. They see same-sex relationships as behaviors, not, well, relationships. Sinful behaviors. And sinful behaviors are enticing, tempting, luring, pretty much by definition ... ‘cause Satan wants to tempt you from the straight and narrow (pun intended)

That, and I always assume a certain proportion of people who talk about queer folks luring folks into sin are, themselves, attracted on some level to people of the same sex and are fighting really hard to resist acting on those temptations. So they’re crabby and lustful and their imaginations run away with them smile.

Comment #117: annajcook  on  08/14  at  01:59 PM

Thanks annajcook, that helps make sense of it.

Comment #118: CassieC  on  08/15  at  05:50 PM
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