Denial:  Not just a river in Egypt…

Of all the good things that would come from open acknowledgment and acceptance of the existence of homosexuality, giving people who are gay the permission to be gay and live their lives without the closet, and the turmoil that comes with it, ranks right near the top.

Dude is gay.  Wife needs to accept this (he does too, of course) and move on…

If she’s having that much sex with him, then she’s exposing herself to that many chances to pick up an STD.  I wouldn’t brag about having unprotected sex all the time with someone whose other sexual experiences are meth-fueled, unprotected sex with prostitutes.  I’d be scared that people thought I had a death wish.  Further proof that the closet spreads STDs better than homosexuality ever could—-if you’re out and proud, you’re that much more likely to take care of yourself and not have a spouse at home who feels obligated to have unprotected sex with you while knowing what you’re doing secretly.

But that’s the doctrine of wifely submission for you.  The more of your health and well-being you give up to some husband who mistreats you, the more holy you are.

I think the other motivator here, the one that isn’t discussed is that this is haggard’s meal ticket.  Being a straight christianist pays well if you’re teddy.  Being a gay or bisexual man, not so much.  Never discount the influence of buckets of cash from the congregation.

More than anything,  I feel sorry for Gayle Haggard. It was bad enough that her husband’s sleeping around potentially exposed her to who knows what STDs; it was bad enough that he no doubt employed a generous helping of religious misogyny to bully her into sleeping with him anyway at home. But now that he’s decided he wants his old job back, he’s dragging her onto TV with him to go over all of this humiliation again in the public eye. Hasn’t this woman already suffered enough? Why can’t Haggard just quietly fade away into the disgrace he deserves and stop using his family like props to stage a comeback?

DR. PAUL DOBRANSKY, PSYCHIATRIST: The first thing that came to mind is that I feel bad for the situation he’s in.

I don’t. I feel bad for Grant Haas. I can muster some sympathy for Gayle Haggard, and their kids. I certainly feel terrible for any GLBT kids who’ve come to loathe themselves after being subjected to homophobia via New Life Church.

Haggard himself? Bed, made, lie.

Do these therapists not understand the concepts of bisexuality or closeted homosexuality to help Ted out with less accusatory framing?

Not that licensing keeps all the sociopaths and dimbulbs out, but AFAIK, in most states, anyone can call him- or herself a plain ol’ “therapist” or “counselor.” And the two hired by Haggard probably have “degrees” from some fundie xtian “school” or another that teaches them the tricks of the trade but doesn’t teach them any concepts that would undermine Biblical literalism.

I don’t feel sorry for her.  She’s a grown woman who is just as guilty as he is in exploiting people’s sadness and neediness to line their own pockets with their “ministry”.  She’s run the “browbeat the women” part of their church for a long time now, and the major part of her job is preaching the doctrine of wifely submission, and lying to women about how submitting to a man—-even if he cheats on you, even if he beats you—-is not only the only way to get into heaven, but that proper levels of submission will help turn a bad man good.  That she’s willing to publicly demonstrate that she lives by her own rules makes her only slightly better than Ted. Her reason is that she needs that gravy train.

[I have no idea why my first non-blockquoted paragraph is teeny-tiny. The HTML looked fine to me.]

Amanda wrote:

Her reason is that she needs that gravy train.

Why?  Now she can write a book.

This is like Dina McGreevey in reverse.  But here, instead of being a fame whore who loves milking the spotlight for all its worth to talk about what a sack of shit her ex-husband is and she has just been so WRONGED!!!1!!11!, she puts in media face time to assure everyone that, really, it just happened the ONE TIME, and her husband is a wonderful and fully heterosexual man who is not in any way a hypocrite or a bigot. 

What I wonder is whether she buys whatever lame excuse he gave her, or it’s all an act in service to a party line.

I feel so sad for these people- victims of their own ideology. Constant shame, constant guilt, having to enlist their entire families and communities in a collective delusion about what’s honestly nobody’s business but their own. And for the ones with celebrity, like Haggard, this inevitable “revelation” and downfall, and gross oversharing and tedious TMI mea culpas. What an awful way to live.

Maybe those few fundies with a little bit of Christ left in their hearts can take this as an opportunity to look real hard at their rigid only-black-or-only-white, only-this thing-or-only-that thing, beliefs. Wouldn’t that be nice?

I wouldn’t brag about having unprotected sex all the time with someone whose other sexual experiences are meth-fueled, unprotected sex with prostitutes.

But Amanda, don’t you know that married PIV missionary position sex between married Real True Christian heterosexuals is automatically totally safe sex?  Real True Christian heterosexuals do not get STD’s.  Duh.

I want to feel sorry for the guy, and I would if he hadn’t been such a shithead as a pastor. To the extent that I feel bad for him, it’s because by becoming such a raving homophobe as a guy who knew he was both bisexual and not very monogamous, he cheated his wife out of an awesomely kinky sex life. Now her I feel bad for—downtrodden wife of a Religious Right Reichsmarschall is a shitty way to go through life.

Ah, Dana, her followers are only interested in a continued message about how female debasement is the path to happiness.  If she were smart, maybe she could turn this around, but she’s not really that smart.  So she’s going to stick to what she knows—-telling women that being debased makes you happy, despite the fact that she’s a living example of how that doesn’t work.

As I watched him stand on his head the other day on Oprah to avoid owning a homosexual or bisexual identity, I could not help but focus on his wife Gayle. She is enabling his behavior and cheating her and children out of a future of happiness by standing beside him.  The fact that he may love his family does not make him straight and I think that is what he is holding onto.  His religious beliefs also make sit in judgment of himself and block him from a path of true self discovery.  Clearly whatever “help” he is seeking on this issue is grounded on treating homosexuality as a disease and this only confirms his religious convictions.
On one hand I feel sorry for Gayle because her life caved in right before her eyes but as she continues to live this lie, my sympathy dissipates.  What is she teaching her children but live a life of falsehood? I do however find it ironic that by refusing to own a label in many ways he is articulating Queer Theory, unfortunately he basis his resistance in self hatred rather than embracing who he is.  He is clearly a mendacious man.

However, I do think that our sexuality is complex. But I don’t like is when we put labels on each other

This and Womanistmusings’ link have, I think, really made clear to me that “I don’t put a label on my sexuality” is not a radical new understanding of sexual orientation, it’s just faux-liberal psychobabble which translates directly “but being in the closet is Teh Funnest!” 

I remember a lot of lesbian friends of mine in college using those terms to avoid actually coming out outside our social circle, and they always managed to silence the pro-outing dissenters by saying something to the above effect.  For a long time I felt like kind of a shit for being so unabashedly in favor of LGBT folks coming out wherever possible, because “why should I label myself based on sexuality?” just sounded so liberal and reasonable.  Not anymore.

More than anything, I feel sorry for Gayle Haggard.

I used to, but not anymore. She comes off as seriously self-righteous during these interviews, and (as Amanda already pointed out) is risking her own health in an effort to appear holy in the eyes of others.

Instead of her doing the best thing a spouse can do, which is to encourage her husband to stop hiding in that toxic closet of his, she deliberately feeds his self-loathing while capitalizing on her own victimhood.

Why?  Now she can write a book.

Oh, but NOW she can write a book about the virtue of wifely submission, whereas if she’d left Ted, she’d only be able to write about what a hypocrite she was.

I wouldn’t brag about having unprotected sex all the time with someone whose other sexual experiences are meth-fueled, unprotected sex with prostitutes.  I’d be scared that people thought I had a death wish.  ...
Amanda Marcotte on 01/31 at 07:27 AM

I’d be scared that I must actually have a death-wish!

I do feel sorry for Mrs Haggard.  Probably because I’ve been in her shoes once.

However, she continues to deny the obvious.  And the really, really shitty thing about religious fundamentalism is that it teaches women to deny themselves happiness and to stand up for themselves. So she’s not taking care of herself, it’s all about her husband.

And how does she know how faithful her husband has been to her?  Closeted gays are very good at telling lies.  Probably because they live a double a life and are very good at lying. 

And her sex life probably is not the greatest in the world.  But if she was a virgin when she married Ted, she wouldn’t know the difference between really bad sex and halfway decent sex.  That’s another feature of religious fundamentalism, that sex is not for women to enjoy.

I have to ask: how many people in this “room” made similar statements about Hillary Clinton when her husband’s philandering ways were exposed?

Amanda wrote that Gayle Haggard’s reason for staying with and defending her husband is “that she needs that gravy train,” yet surely the same could have been said about Mrs Clinton.  The only difference is that Mr Haggard and Mr Clinton, both of whom cheated on their loyal wives, both apparently with multiple partners, happened to choose different genders for their extracurricular pleasures.

Nor do I recall a whole lot of excoriation—though there was a little bit—of Elizabeth Edwards as an enabler, when we discovered that she had been covering up for her husband’s trysts.  Eliot Spitzer got a lot of grief in here, but then, he was already done, and his resignation just led to another Democrat taking his seat.  (Was this site even in existence when the Jim McGreevey scandal came out?  (Pun intended))

ITA with everyone who doesn’t feel sorry for Gayle.  She continues to spout the fundie propaganda that is the very cause of the painful situation she is in.

Dana: I have to ask: how many people in this “room” made similar statements about Hillary Clinton when her husband’s philandering ways were exposed? /Dana

For me the issue is: Did Hillary Clinton want to force every woman to accept what she had?  Did Elizabeth Edwards?  No?  NO.  Did they accept from their husbands this behavior because they thought it was a woman’s place in life to do so?  I don’t think so.  Did they have their own reasons for accepting and dealing with the behavior?  Obviously, and what those were, I don’t venture a guess.

Gayle Haggard’s history and place in her husband’s ministry - perpetuating the crap that women have only one station in life - I think puts in her a different league.
kac90b on 01/31 at 01:53 PM

Seconded, with this point for emphasis:

The husbands in these cases also had not built their particular “gravy trains” on these misogynist/repressed agendas either. Fooling around outside a marriage is probably not a great thing, but case by case, maybe it’s OK or even good, at least in principle.

But not when the “philanderers” in question have made a career of denouncing this very kind of thing in others, and call for harsh measures, fear, and hatred, of these scary Others! At best, such people need to rethink their message and worldview—but more likely they are just hypocrites, fully aware of their inconsistency and committed to maintaining privilege for themselves. Such people are dangerous not only because they are liars, but because they can reasonably be expected to engage in conspiracies with other privileged, powerful people to maintain an order based on fear, hatred, and greed.

Republican politicians with kinks are pretty bad in this respect—and I think the overall track record is, they are kinkier, with tastes that are downright mean. But obviously a fundamentalist preacher is the worst of the lot, at least as far as hypocrisy goes. (The politicians obviously have more direct access to real power and can do more direct harm to more people more quickly).

I have to ask: how many people in this “room” made similar statements about Hillary Clinton when her husband’s philandering ways were exposed?

I seem to recall a lot of people here complaining because Elizabeth Edwards didn’t tell her wayward hubby to shove off or at least step down before his stupidity managed to scuttle the Democrats’ chance for an electoral win.

Observe:

“Nor should we let Elizabeth off the hook; she knew that this candidacy had one hell of a vulnerability, but she encouraged Democrats to dump good money after bad anyway.”

“My view of Elizabeth Edwards is greatly diminished insofar as he told her about the affair in 2006, yet she continued to go out and market him to the American public.”

“If everyone is going to be mad about Edwards endangering Edwards democratic chances at taking the WH if he had won the nomination, shouldn’t we also be mad at Elizabeth for covering up his affair…”

These comments were turned up as part of a 20-second Google search on the subject. But I remember a whole lot of hand-wringing that powerful dem women – Clinton and Edwards in particular – stay with their philandering husbands.

For my own part, however, Gayle Haggard’s staying with her husband isn’t a bad thing. It’s a good thing – or it would be a good thing, except that she uses her status as a victim to drive ol’ Ted deeper into the closet. It seems to me that Gayle Haggard stayed because that gives her the opportunity to launch a new career as “the wronged spouse who overcame.” And now, instead of being the submissive partner, Gayle has a club to hold over Ted for the rest of his wretched life.

That was certainly the impression I got during her interviews.

When Haggard says that he didn’t preach homophobia when he was a minster - is that actually true? I thought he was just as much of a bigot as the rest of that bunch?

Elena, given the Christian Right argue that homophobia is “the irrational fear of gay people” and allow that it means only and exclusively actual direct violence against gay people, or outright advocating violence, I daresay it’s true for the Christian Right’s definition of true.  Orson Scott Card, who’s advocated that sex between men needs to remain illegal so that gay men will live in the closet, and that same-sex legal marriage is sufficient justification for leading a revolution to overthrow the government, claims quite angrily that he is not homophobic - that these are not homophobic opinions.

Gayle Haggard’s an adult woman who one hopes is doing what’s best for her. She’s in a bad position whatever she does. Yeah, if I had a close friend whose husband turned out to be a closety gay man who was having sex with men and lying about it, I’d probably suggest to her that she consider leaving him… but I wouldn’t press the point if she told me she couldn’t do that, just make clear there are real and unavoidable consequences of infection if he didn’t have safe sex - even if he says he did…

Yeah, she is also part of a sick, sick culture that denies or destroys their LGBT members: but she is one of its victims, as much as Ted Haggard himself is.

In a sense, what she and others like her are is an object lesson of the folly of the homophobes who argue that the “solution” for gay people who want to get married is for them to ditch their current partner, and marry someone of the opposite sex.

Gayle Haggard’s history and place in her husband’s ministry - perpetuating the crap that women have only one station in life - I think puts in her a different league.

The husbands in these cases also had not built their particular “gravy trains” on these misogynist/repressed agendas either.

Count on Dana not to get the salient point. For him, it’s all about Rules.

Are wingnuts just blind to the oppression aspect, or do they work real hard at not seeing it? (I know, that’s the $64,000 question…)

Do these therapists not understand the concepts of bisexuality or closeted homosexuality to help Ted out with less accusatory framing?

Well, real therapists do, but Ted started out going to “therapists” who claim they can cure teh gayz.  Perhaps getting Ted to accept he is a “homosexual with complications” is as far as they can get him to go right now. 

Who knows?  Maybe he thinks he’s possessed by Satan whenever he engages in homosexual behavior.  It’s a sin to him, so he can’t really be responsible, right?  It’s Satan making him do it b/c he’s really heterosexual!  Srssly.  Not gay.  Nuh-uh.

These people do not deserve a national public podium.  I would really like it if our journalists would actually do their jobs.  Not possible anymore, since they are all owned by corporate entities, but it would be nice if asshates like this could be called on their asshatery with follow up questions and true facts and statistics.

Yeah, that wouldn’t be “fair” b/c simply declaring you love Jesus enacts automatic ban on any rational discussion.  You can’t question JESUS!  HE died for our SINS!  And HE’s COMING BACK!

These two are both losers, professionally and privately.  Ted will not be able to be a “former gay” for long—as soon as he gets any sort of power again, if he does, he’ll abuse it.  And then he’ll get caught.  He’s only good for the “See? Homosexuality destroys marriages!” example; that’s why they let him back.

Not to mention her doctrine of wifely submission positions women to be emotionally and financially dependent on their husbands.  It’s one thing to make a choice to save your marriage in spite of your husband’s philandering it’s quite another to be in a position of dependence that does not leave you that option.  And that’s what she has advocated for women.

I think his claims that he hasn’t been a hate preacher is the “Love the sinner” stuff that says that they don’t hate homosexuals—so long as they accept the fact that gay sex is a sin and should never be indulged in.  So as long as you hate yourself, they don’t hate you.

On the one hand I do feel for him for his clear self-loathing.  On the other hand, he has profited immensely from his beliefs.

What a sad world the Haggards must live in, and would impose on the rest of us if they could.

Jesurgislac, I thought that to be the case. I think these individuals believe that as long as they are not advocating outright violence against the GLBTQ community, they aren’t being homophobic. As usual, they’ve defined “homophobia” (just as “marriage” and all manner of other things) in a way that fits their sick world-view and allows them to wiggle out of public condemnation of their behavior.

I want to feel sorry for the Haggards. They obviously live a sick, sad lie. They demonstrate how harmful the patriarchal/religious ideology is even to those that have bought into it hook, line and sinker. But they were so eager to jump on that gravy train and use it to harm others, that I’m having trouble mustering up any sort of real sympathy for them. Haggard knew what it was like to live in the closet and yet he preached that others should go through that. His wife knew what it was like to live a lie with this man, yet she told other women to submit to their husbands. It’s their own special sort of hell they’ve created, so to hell with the both of them!

If only they had been like the Carlyles, and settled for reducing the amount of marital unhappiness in the world by being stuck with each other…

Gayle Haggard

““She was very hands-on,” Melendez said. “A funny story though. We have these tests you can take to see where your talents are, and she always scored lowest on the servant portion. She was always trying to raise that score.”

I…I have no words. Servant? Damn.