Ok I laughed out loud at the comment above - or “LOLed” as we young whippersnappers say.

If age is a state of mind then McCain is 248.

As someone who has tutored a wide range of clients on using computers, including seniors in their 80s, I cannot hold this against McCain.  Too many people in his generation along with many boomers tend to find themselves completely at a loss around computers.  As most of their formative and adult lives spanned a time before the popularization of the personal computer with its user interfaces, applications, and access to the internet…learning about this technology is far more difficult than those of us who grew up with it and had it in our lives as young adults or more importantly, when we were growing up. 

Though I am reasonably conversant with computer technology, I will acknowledge much of that was due to the fact I grew up in a time period when they were becoming integrated in our lives, attended an urban magnet high school with a sizable community of computer enthusiasts, and that I had enough interest in computer technology to learn and read about it during my leisure time.  Even so, there were many within my own generation (GenX) who were technophobic enough to dread going near a computer, much less using it.  One in particular who saw computers as monstrous beings who were going to take over at humanity’s expense was a high school classmate who graduated a year before me.

This is not to say that it is impossible for them to learn enough computing technology to gain some familiarity…just that it is a steeper learning curve as it is alien to many of their formative and adult life experiences…...unless they are technology enthusiasts and/or worked in computer/computing related fields.  A little more understanding for those in their situation is warranted. 

Moreover, being reasonably conversant with computing technology does not necessarily imply the individual concerned is remotely qualified for the Presidency or any other elected public office.  For instance, Larry Ellison, Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Carly Fiona, and Steve Jobs are some of the last people I would want as President…or in any elected public office for many reasons.* 

There are plenty of excellent reasons to criticize and lampoon McCain, but I am not sure this is it.  Criticizing him on this IMO is not only unfair due to the greater learning curves people like McCain and others whose life experiences did not prepare them for dealing with computer technology….but IMO is little better than the unjudicious rants many in McCain’s generation and the boomers often make about us young’uns being lazy apathetic self-absorbed materialistic slackers….

* Hilary Rosen gets an honorable mention for actions committed while she presided over the RIAA….though I am not sure if she is conversant with computing technology or not.

In the last starred sentence, I should have said “dishonorable mention”...

“As someone who has tutored a wide range of clients on using computers, including seniors in their 80s, I cannot hold this against McCain.  Too many people in his generation along with many boomers tend to find themselves completely at a loss around computers.

Yea, but how many of them were US Senators with college-aged daughters running their own campaign blog?

I mean, I know campaigning for POTUS is time-consuming, but with a Dem majority he should have had time to take a night class. (/sarcasm)

Yea, but how many of them were US Senators with college-aged daughters running their own campaign blog?

No politicians so far…but some of the senior-aged clients included senior corporate executives, medical doctors, and attorneys.

I was kind of hoping some one would take me seriously so I could engage in an insane back-and-forth conversation where I explain how it’s possible for me to post when I don’t use computers.

Hey…for all I know…you’re a clairvoyant whose mind could harness the wireless signals to go on pandagon and post comments.

No politicians so far…but some of the senior-aged clients included senior corporate executives, medical doctors, and attorneys.

I just find it unsettling that someone has the power to decide the future (Net Neutrality, FCC appointments, copyrights, etc.) of something he knows nothing about.

Medical doctor also baffles me since they should be at the forefront when it comes to new technology in order to remain relevant in their profession. I mean thankfully they’re getting lessons, but to me, any time in the last ten years is late in the game.

These days, even an office-drone job requires knowing at least email and Microsoft Office. And plenty of people manage to learn these skills without having grown up with them. My parents are in their mid-50s and obviously did not grow up with computers, yet they both became computer-literate very quickly about a decade ago when the Internet boom took off. Given the important role technology plays in our modern life, I don’t think we should have public officials who are completely ignorant of it. I don’t expect our elected officials to be engineering geniuses, but I would like to see the basic level of competence that private employers demand of people earning $30,000 a year.

I’m going to give him a pass on this one: he can’t raise his arms above his shoulders, so I suspect he’s probably not going to be physically comfortable with any kind of keyboard.

(Ralph Nader? Uses an Underwood typewriter, and doesn’t like computers as writing tools.)

One interesting point: Bush used teh emails when he was Texas governor, but stopped when he became preznit. My guess is that it’ll take another eight years and the development of a coherent policy on presidential digital archives for any incoming president to use digital communication on a regular basis, and in that regard, it’s a somewhat retrogressive office. Even Al Gore might have felt constrained had he not been robbed in 2000.

This actually relates to something funny I realized the other day.

My father-in-law is coming for a visit for a week, then my parents for a week.  Since I have spare computers floating around, my wife suggested I get one set up for their use when they come.

Father-in-law is 66, my parents are pushing 60.  Not only do I have to make sure we order more food for the visit, I’ve got to run a cable from my router to the spare bedroom and update the programs on my old computer so my mother can get her email and check her Facebook page, Dad can get the news and sports scores, and father-in-law can use the online chat he’s addicted to.  Mother-in-law isn’t coming, thank goodness, or I’d probably have to run another line for her laptop (she’s a nurse, also 65, who just retired).

Needless to say, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for people claiming the older generation can’t figure out that computer thing connected to the internet tubes.

Regarding the medical doctors….keep in mind that the ones I am talking about rose to their senior positions before computers became commonplace in their professional environments.  As a result, they could conceivably attempt to delegate computer-related tasks to more computer conversant subordinates.  This doesn’t usually work well in practice…a reason why I was hired. 

I just find it unsettling that someone has the power to decide the future (Net Neutrality, FCC appointments, copyrights, etc.) of something he knows nothing about.

One’s proficiency in using a computer for basic office apps and email does not necessarily mean s(he) will be conversant with those issues.  In fact, from talking with fellow computer professionals and engineers and my own experiences, the vast majority of our politicians are so clueless and/or “bought” on those issues that they tend, with few exceptions, to uncritically accept almost verbatim…the talking points of corporate suits who want to undermine our rights regarding those issues.* 

IME, their technological cluelessness and even phobia reminded me of most of the middle-aged and senior-aged attorneys** I’ve worked with…..not too surprising as a sizable portion of our politicians were attorneys at some point in their lives. 

* i.e. RIAA/MPAA lobbyists, Comcast, Microsoft, etc.

** With the exception of some IP attorneys.

I’m going to give him a pass on this one: he can’t raise his arms above his shoulders, so I suspect he’s probably not going to be physically comfortable with any kind of keyboard.

Who types at a keyboard with their arms above their shoulders?

I dunno.  Given how much time we all spend fucking around on the Internet, forbidding your leader from ever touchiong a bloody keyboard may be a very good idea.

Alan Alda is one tech-savy granddad.He mentions it in his excellent autobiography(not in a show-off kinda way either,he just writes about exchanging emails and setting up WLAN at his home).Why not have him as POTUS?

I had a boss two or so years ago who was about five years younger than McCain (yes, I know that would have put her over the retirement age) and who was completely computer illiterate. It made life at that small school absolutely impossible. Although, what ended up happening was that we (the teachers) would agree with whatever insane computer dictum she’d just issued, and then do whatever we needed/wanted to do to keep the classroom running, and she had no way to check.

The few advantages increasingly autonomy under an otherwise autocratic (and ridiculous—oh, the stories I have) head of school were definitely not worth the difficulties involved with working with someone who could not, for example, communicate with her staff or the parents at the school. Or look up information, or apply for grants (which was why she was hired), or… do anything, really.

Even my 89-year-old grandmother uses email!  I realize that not everyone is computer savvy, but it’s getting increasingly difficult to get along in our world without knowing at least the basics.  McCain is running for the highest office in the land.  Is it too much to ask that he be familiar with what the modern American has to do on a daily basis?

Too many people in his generation along with many boomers tend to find themselves completely at a loss around computers.  As most of their formative and adult lives spanned a time before the popularization of the personal computer with its user interfaces, applications, and access to the internet…learning about this technology is far more difficult than those of us who grew up with it and had it in our lives as young adults or more importantly, when we were growing up.

Oh, bullshit.

We are now at the point where EVERYONE in most workplaces (only fields I can think of that don’t rely heavily on computing are farm labor and maybe some factories that aren’t very mechanized) uses computers, in an everyday sense, just to get the job done.  Everyone in my office, which includes people up to 65-70, uses computers fluently. 

McCain has not learned to use computers because he has people who do that.  It’s not a matter of age, it’s a matter of having the social capital to delegate that whole category of chores to others.  It’s kind of like if he admitted he’d never used a mop.

When was the last time you saw George W. Bush using a computer? It’s not a tech job.

The position demands a great deal at the level of self-presentation and at the level of performance. Whether or not you can type is irrelevant, frankly. That’s why you have an administrative assistant. Another example of age-ism disguised as a real issue.

Can Obama send text messages? Does Obama know how to post videos to YouTube? Does Obama watch TV? Silly concerns when you realize that the job of POTUS has little to do with hands-on technology.

I think that there is a world of difference between ability/willingness to use and ability/willingness to comprehend.  I’ve got few problems with the former.  McCain is going to be ultimately responsible for HHS, for example, but no-one expects him how to grow a culture in a petrie dish.  The problem—and it is a big one—is that he doesn’t seem to Get It in a disturbing way.  It’s where McCain moves into “I don’t know what a petrie dish does, and I don’t really give much of a shit about learning about public health issues and can’t be bothered to find out”. 

Look at it this way.  We don’t expect a president to be conversant with all of the applications he as a biological computer will be running; we do have a right to ask if his OS is adequate to the demands that will be placed on it, and it is pretty clear that he isn’t.  Putting McCain in the WH would be like trying to run ILM’s CGI software on Eniac.

It’s not just that McCain can’t conduct computer searches—it’s that he doesn’t seem to know enough about computers to make intelligent use of the results he receives.  I mean, the very idea of using Google (and apparently nothing more) to vet VP candidates): “I’m sorry, Mitt, but we think there are too many unanswered questions about your relationship to Mickey Kaus and his goats to allow us to give you the nomination . . .”

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/thirdhand_rumormongering.php#comment-764739

We don’t need a tech wiz for president, but we cannot afford another completely incurious, willfully ignorant one, not to mention one who thinks his ignorance gives him a just-folks down-to-earth appeal.  I mean, “maverick” only goes so far.  Everybody else uses a computer, but I don’t ‘cause I’m a maverick!  No, I never heard of this Keynes guy, but then, I’m a maverick!  Feh.

Back in the late 80s, when I started working for the family firm, we only had a ‘word processor’.  Eventually we moved up to computers, which when one broke my disgruntled dad groused “We’re out of business till it’s working?  We’re better off without a computer at all, aren’t we?!” and was rather taken aback when my brother and I both gave him a resounding “NO!”

He came around, eventually.  He also thinks I can do anything, but it’s true that he does email hedge funds in the UK and emirs in Dubai to see if they’re interested in multifamily finance.  He needs help to find the emails and to set up attachments, but he gets it eventually.

He’s 77.  And dyslexic.  And a crappy typist since he didn’t even try to learn till he was in his 60s.

There’s no bloody reason for John McCain not to use or understand a computer if he’s POTUS.  It’s not like he’s going to be on Battlestar Galactica and cyborgs might take over the government.

As someone who has tutored a wide range of clients on using computers, including seniors in their 80s, I cannot hold this against McCain.

Exholt, you’ve gotta admit that you’re working from a self-selected group of people who are having a hard time with computers and so seek out help with them.  There are plenty of seniors out there like my parents who happily use computers every day without too much trouble and only need help when doing something fairly complicated like setting up a wireless network in the house.

I just can’t get behind this idea of “hey, give him a break, it’s hard for some people to learn new things late in life.”  When did we get the idea that we want someone as POTUS who is no smarter than the “average joe”?  It underlies all those stupid questions about whether someone is at home at applebees of can pound shots or whatever, as evidence that they are (or aren’t) enough of “regular guy/gal” to be president.  I don’t want an average person as president, I want someone who is the smartest, most capable, most tactful, most educated, most exposed to the world that we can find!!!  Our president SHOULD be better than most of us!!!!  Why on earth would we not want to elect the best???

And so I do agree with those who see a willful ignorance about technology to be disturbing.  It means he doesn’t understand how information is distributed in a modern age, which is a HUGE factor in all sorts of things that concern a president (e.g., how political messages get out, how terrorists communicate, etc.), and HE DOESN’T CARE!  He is not open to the progress of the world around him, and that scares me.

And finally, just as another anecdote, my 85-year-old mother is checking out assisted living communities.  Two of her requirements for a place are that it provides HDTV and high-speed internet services.

He was making a joke that he was vetting his vice president by Googling the hopefuls and he bungled it.  And he was probably joking about being computer illiterate. 

I just find it unsettling that someone has the power to decide the future (Net Neutrality, FCC appointments, copyrights, etc.) of something he knows nothing about.

The same way presidents who are not pilots name FAA personnel and make policy regulating airlines (John McCain is a pilot).  The same way presidents who aren’t doctors name FDA heads and make health care policy. The same way presidents who know nothing about education make education policy. 

However, a lot of management and upper level types who have been around for a while aren’t comfortable with technology because they don’t have to use it. 

Instead of checking his e-mail, he’ll get an e-mail digest from a staffer, either forwarded to his computer or mobile device, or on paper if he wants it.  If he needs to Google something or look something up online, he’ll almost always have a staffer do that.  There’s almost nothing that uses the internet that wouldn’t ordinarily be delegated below a president or a senator. 

It’s also likely that his injuries keep him from spending long periods of time typing. His arms were broken when his plane crashed, and those injuries were left more or less untreated for years.  McCain can’t lift his arms above his shoulders, and can’t put on a hat or a sweater without assistance. So that might be an issue.

Who types at a keyboard with their arms above their shoulders?

See, there were two choices there: come back with the snark, or give it a bit of thought and taken away the idea that the injuries that mean he can’t comb his hair might also make typing uncomfortable. A pity you chose the snark.

Meghan McCain should get her dad an iPhone.

“However, with the rise of the Internet as either a source of information or a guide to where that information may be found, claiming the POTUS wouldn’t benefit from “the Google” and other critical resources on the ‘net probably doesn’t hold true any more.”

I am pretty sure that most leaders do not base their policy decisions on what they can find via Google or Wikipedia. I am also pretty sure that McCain can use the Internet. Some people feign Luddite status but actually do a lot online.

Also, in terms of electing “the best,” when has America ever managed to do that before? Look at Gore versus Bush or even pathetic Kerry/Edwards versus Bush.

The same way presidents who are not pilots name FAA personnel and make policy regulating airlines (John McCain is a pilot).  The same way presidents who aren’t doctors name FDA heads and make health care policy. The same way presidents who know nothing about education make education policy.

He’s a United States Senator. He doesn’t have to be a king of all trades, but after twenty years in office he should have a decent (and growing and updating) understanding of the matters under his purview (The Internet falling under the Commerce Committee).

I am pretty sure that most leaders do not base their policy decisions on what they can find via Google or Wikipedia.

Can’t do worse than some I could name.  How’s the hunt for those WMDs goi- oh, right.

Exholt, you’ve gotta admit that you’re working from a self-selected group of people who are having a hard time with computers and so seek out help with them.  There are plenty of seniors out there like my parents who happily use computers every day without too much trouble and only need help when doing something fairly complicated like setting up a wireless network in the house.

As I stated in my comments above, I did not say it was impossible for older generations and those who were not exposed to computers until very late in their lives…..just that the learning curve tended to be steeper as the computer tended to be alien to their prior life experiences…unless they have had prior working experiences in the computing/related fields. 

Moreover, the people who sought me out told me of not being able to relate their prior experiences to computing so there was a substantial intimidation factor to begin with….and the fact so many more in their group are unwilling to even learn about/touch a computer due to this factor and fear of being exposed to ridicule by younger colleagues/relatives. 

Those are the reasons why many seniors clients’ similarly aged friends at various parties/gatherings, and older neighbors have for not wanting to bother with computers.  Though it is partially the “I don’t want to feel stupid” factor….this is magnified by the great intolerance many in the computing enthusiast community and younger people have for computing novices….with the inevitable mistakes and f&^kups that tend to happen with the learning process.  The fact they are senior citizens means the intolerant younger computer enthusiasts and younger relatives have ageist insults with which to wield against them. 

This is underscored by the fact several of my senior-aged clients were on the edge of giving up learning about computers due to horrific experiences from younger relatives/prior computer instructors who did not have the patience and temperment to teach anyone who couldn’t pick it up as easily as they did.  I’ve both heard and witnessed firsthand how younger relatives/computer instructors lose their tempers and going off on them about how stupid and idiotic they must be for not being able to do [X] that is so “simple” and “elementary”.  IMO, these assholes give the computer enthusiasts community and computing in general a bad name.

This pedagogical BS is familiar to me as I’ve known many computer enthusiasts friends and colleagues and plenty of random people at various computer conventions (i.e. Linuxworld) who are proficient in terms of knowledge…but who picked up this knowledge so effortlessly or forgot their own formative learning experiences that anyone who cannot learn it as quickly and thoroughly as they could are complete morons who should be berated and yelled at mercilessly.  Though some in the computing enthusiast community want to deny this form of techno-snobbery….it does exist and it can get quite vicious for the person(s) being targeted.  Heck, this happens even among the more egocentric computer enthusiasts who feel they need to prove themselves through computer-cred pissing matches. 

Among family members, my 70-ish mother is proficient with computers as she’s not only worked with them for 10+ years, but also has an enthusiastic passion for it.  In contrast, my father along with some older relatives are so intimidated by the alien technology that they refuse to even touch computers…much less use one.  Other older relatives are extremely variable ranging from those who could barely turn the machine on/off to those who are as proficient as my mother.

I have less a problem with him not knowing how to use a computer (learning curve? physical disability? not job-related?) than with him being proud that he doesn’t know how to use a computer. Can’t he admit that he doesn’t know much about it but that he’s learning and he’s excited to be learning?

This arrogance about “the computer doohickey” is REALLY going to win the youth vote that everyone thought Obama had locked up.

As someone who has tutored a wide range of clients on using computers, including seniors in their 80s, I cannot hold this against McCain.  Too many people in his generation along with many boomers tend to find themselves completely at a loss around computers.

Meh.  I hold it against him.  My mother-in-law isn’t exactly techno-savy, but even she did nearly all her Christmas shopping online this past year.  Anybody who’s held a job in the past decade has probably had to use a computer, if only to check email, or perhaps enter data into a timesheet.  Most of the little old ladies at the church where I work have email accounts.

The problem with McCain, on this issue and everything else, is that he is willfully and pridefully ignorant.  No, I don’t expect a president to be a computer engineer, or a doctor, etc.  I do expect a president to show an interest in the world around him and a willingness and flexibility to learn.  Whether it be age-related, or simply a lifelong feature of his personality, McCain’s utter lack of inquisitiveness and his aversion to “new fangled thinking” disqualifies him for office.

pretty funny. but i think people at certain status don’t really need to use or know how to use computers. they have people taking care of it for them. then again, his people don’t know how to use a computer also http://mike.newsvine.com/_news/2007/03/27/633799-hacking-john-mccain

As I stated in my comments above, I did not say it was impossible for older generations and those who were not exposed to computers until very late in their lives…..just that the learning curve tended to be steeper as the computer tended to be alien to their prior life experiences…unless they have had prior working experiences in the computing/related fields.

You missed my point:  your clients were a self-selected group of people who needed help learning how to use a computer.  Claiming that those specific people are emblematic of the entire age group is stretching.

After watching my parents, and other people closer to their age than mine, I’m convinced there is such a thing as computer dyslexia, to varying degrees. It takes a different kind of “reading” and hand-eye skills to quickly grasp a new interface or application and find what parts of the screen will get you where you want to go, what you need to click on, pull down, etc. And I’m not even a gamer—doubtless I’d appear computer-dyslexic to gamers.

On the other hand, I find dead-tree crossword puzzles a form of torment.

But McCain does seem to be blowing it off—not promising to see W.-type humor in the man who would be W.‘s successor.

Feh—the 82-year old mother of a friend of mine, out in the wilds of the Eastern Shore where your connectivity would be better done banging out signals via two tin cans and a string—uses the Internet.  Constantly.

If McCain can’t be bothered to learn about one of the most influential influences on the average American, he doesn’t have any business running for POTUS.

Personally, I think that a somewhat subaverage ability to understand how to use a computer should do absolutely nothing to stop my grandmother from becoming President. Hey, she still attends antiwar rallies!

McCain is hopeless, though. But, then, he’s the Big Tough Foreign Policy candidate who doesn’t know the difference between the Sunnis and Shia, so I suppose his computer illiteracy isn’t a big surprise.

Many years ago, when I was in college, an elderly professor confessed to me:  “Several years ago I decided that computers were here to stay and were going to be important tools in the future.  So I decided that I would learn how to use them.  It turned out to be pretty easy, but I am having a bit of difficulty learning C++.”*

Generally the people who decide they won’t ever be able to use a computer are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

*yes this was a long time ago… I know that C++ is old… apparently so am I

You missed my point:  your clients were a self-selected group of people who needed help learning how to use a computer.  Claiming that those specific people are emblematic of the entire age group is stretching.

Mnemosyne,

In my prior comment, I mentioned I got that impression from what my clients told me as well as from being introduced to many of their similarly aged friends and non-clients at parties and other social gatherings.  This was also confirmed from talking with a lot of senior citizens in both my workplace and at a few former/current neighborhoods with large populations of senior citizens. 

In fact, with the exception of my mother and one or two senior aged researchers I met in grad school….nearly every senior I’ve come across where the conversation drifted onto computer topics has mentioned how much more difficult it was for them to pick up the basic rudiments of computing than it was for their younger relatives and children/grandchildren. 

Part of my wanting to give McCain and other similarly situated folks a pass on this specific point is also knowing that if I did not happen to be lucky enough to have been gifted a computer in my adolescence, attend a urban public magnet high school where most of my friends were computer enthusiasts, and developed enough of an impassioned interest to learn about computers despite the inevitable first stumbles and f^kups…..I could very well end up like that high school classmate who is absolutely terrified about computers despite being only a year older than me…..or others like him that I’ve come across in academia/the workplace. 

In some ways, picking on McCain for his computer illiteracy* is little better IMO than some computer enthusiasts I knew who automatically assume someone is irredeemably stupid, incompetent, and worthless for any important job solely because they couldn’t master the intricacies of the command-line in PC/MS-DOS or better yet, UNIX/BSD/Linux variants. 

* Picking on him for being proud of his ignorance and too stubborn to learn is fair game…though I didn’t really pick up that impression from the video.

Many years ago, when I was in college, an elderly professor confessed to me:  “Several years ago I decided that computers were here to stay and were going to be important tools in the future.  So I decided that I would learn how to use them.  It turned out to be pretty easy, but I am having a bit of difficulty learning C++.”*

Must give your elderly Prof much respect for even attempting to learn C++.  In many of the C++ courses my friends took as undergrads at various institutions, at least 60% of their class would end up failing the course.  Though my class wasn’t as bad on the attrition, it was still disconcerting to see so many classmates flunking midterms with scores in the single digits out of 100%...and then failing the entire course in the end.

Whether computer literate or not, McCain is just another 4 years of Bush