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Next entry: The mental illness gambit Previous entry: Thoughts on the inevitable right wing deflection campaign

Gender, power, and the Giffords shooting

Crime

One aspect of this whole discussion about violent language that’s going under-discussed is the role that anxious masculinity plays it.  Finally, Jessica Valenti broke out and talked about it.  I think part of the reason people are afraid to say it out loud is because people on the left, especially men, are nearly as afraid of being called a girl as anyone else.  I have no idea why there’s so much castration anxiety in America, but no other factor fuels the ridiculous aspects of our political culture more.  As I’ve said before, the three biggest base-moving issues on the right all have to do with anxious masculinity: squelching reproductive rights and the female control over female bodies they represent, squelching gay rights because they subvert the tradition of sex and marriage being acts of male dominance over women, and gun nuttery, which can be summed up as wingnut fears that Democrats (feminized in their minds) are coming to take away their phallic symbols.

Unfortunately, it also means that violence is promoted, because it’s soothingly masculine. (See Tim Pawlenty’s attempts to win base voters over by taking passive aggressive potshots at his wife and claiming he loves to relax by enjoying violence.) Of course, it creates a self-defeating loop, because right wing masculinity antics—-resenting women for having sexual allure, bragging about how much you’d totally beat someone up, squealing about the gross dudes having butt secks—-are things grown-ups leave in middle school.  Acting childish is unmanly, but the only way they can think of to “man up” is to redouble the violent posturing, homophobia, and misogyny.  Vicious cycle.  It’s actually sad seeing people—-and believe me, women do it too, and then think they’re going to taunt me with it in Twitter—-act like such morons when there’s a calmer, more grown-up path of letting this obsession with cowboy masculinity go. 

Gender is an issue with this specific shooting.  Just as you can’t claim that shooting a congressperson and a judge at a political event is a non-political event, you can’t really just pretend there aren’t gender implications to a young man shooting one of the sadly too few women in Congress.  Barring straight up schizophrenia (and since the word salad of the videos came from a right wing nut that Loughner appears to have followed, this may not have been a factor), I figured that gender would end up playing a role in why Loughner chose the victim he did. 

Sady nabbed a detail from the WSJ that chilled me to my bones, simply because this kind of story is a mundane part of my existence and probably the existence of pretty much every woman reading this who puts forth an intelligent, opinionated persona.  Maybe at least young woman?  I don’t know if this gets better as you age.  Some background: there are many kinds of mansplaining, and all are irritating.  But by far, my least favorite mansplaining is the “How do you know what you know?” mansplaining.

In my experience, this is usually how the interaction with this stripe of mansplainer goes.  Woman says something pointed, intelligent, and for whatever reason, threatening to the mansplainer. But he fashions himself too cool and worldly a gentleman to merely lash out at her.  And he doesn’t want to give her insignificant thoughts the courtesy of direct engagement.  So, he decides to treat the woman—-who is inevitably better-read, more thoughtful, and often actually has a sense of humor, unlike the mansplainer—-to a faux Socratic question that he thinks sounds really profound and philosophical and will totally boggle her wee girl brain and shut her up, but actually sounds like half-baked wankery that would embarrass even stoned college C students having a pseudo-philosophical bullshit session at 3 in the morning.  I’ve been asked, “How do you know what you think you know?”  And, “Aren’t politics just a bunch of noise that doesn’t really matter/couldn’t be influenced by your voice?” There’s about a dozen variations, but all of them basically boil down to, “I think I have the perfect way to question the assumption that you have every right to speak your mind/hold power, and I think it’s going to blow your mind and shut your bitch mouth up permanently, though I’ll swear to the end of time that I’m all for women’s equality.”  Since it’s inevitably a silly, half-baked pseudo-question, it’s almost always easy to put down swiftly, and this generally annoys the mansplainer, wanker division.  This breed fails to understand a) smart women get this all the time and b) women have to go through a lot of internalized sexism that’s probably more solid than your bullshit to get the confidence they have, so you aren’t going to take them down that easily.  It’s generally a failure to understand they’re batting out of their league, and the reason they don’t understand that they’ve internalized the cultural lie that women are stupid and men are smart.  Often, they may not even realize they’re operating with that assumption, but their behavior belies this.

Which is why my blood ran cold when I read about how Loughner may have gotten obsessed with Gabrielle Giffords.

Mr. Montanaro said his friend “was never really political,” but “really tried to be philosophical.” Mr. Loughner liked “contemplating the meaning of words and the origin of language,” Mr. Montanaro said.

That interest might have triggered Mr. Loughner’s first meeting with Ms. Giffords in 2007. Mr. Loughner said he asked the lawmaker, “How do you know words mean anything?” recalled Mr. Montanaro. He said Mr. Loughner was “aggravated” when Ms. Giffords, after pausing for a couple of seconds, “responded to him in Spanish and moved on with the meeting.”

The glib response Giffords had may be surprising, because refusing to indulge goofball and asshole constituents is usually not a politician’s M.O.  But I respect it.  Again, women with intelligence and power get this shit from men all the time, and one way you learn to cope is to disarm them with a joke.  It rarely causes them to question their own assholery, but it runs so strongly against what they expected to happen—-which is for you to curl up, mind blown, and gaze at them adoringly for being so brilliant as to ask such “deep” questions—-that it often gives you time to flee.  Of course, the downside is that a perfect shot across the bow like that one tends to piss the mansplainer off a lot.  After all, he was already threatened by your intelligence.  Dismantling what he thought was some brilliant, deep question in two seconds flat isn’t likely to make that threateningness dissipate. 

Now, it’s possible that Loughner wasn’t actually mansplaining at her in this way.  It seems, from the rest of the article, that he had an obsession with what he no doubt thought were deep thoughts about the nature of language.  In fact, the Patriot movement in general tends to cultivate an obsession with denying the authority of social constructs and casting around for some weird kind of authenticity.  Take, for instance, their fury at the social construct of currency—-they just really can’t stand that money has value because people believe it has value and act like it has value, and so they flail around, demanding things like the gold standard, without taking the time to realize that gold only has value for exactly the same reason paper money only has value, which is that people say so.  You see this again and again with Patriot movement types—-a belief that because something is a social construct, it must be paper-thin and easy to wish away.  That’s why they declare sovereignty occasionally (and learn that the socially constructed federal government’s power is no less real because it’s a social construct) as their way to channel right wing populism.  It’s entirely possible that Loughner was more interested in Giffords as a symbol of federal power than anything else.  But from the point of view of his audience, it probably seemed like the same old mansplaining.  And her response—-an eviscerating joke—-is the best response the vast majority of the time.

What we’re learning in the aftermath of this is something Americans are probably not equipped to deal with, in our one-note, over-simplified public discourse.  That’s that there isn’t a single answer for why something like this happens.  It’s a combination of factors.  It’s the individual’s own personal problems and it’s the right wing noise machine ratcheting up the hysteria and it’s white male rage that would exist even without the amplification just because women and racial minorities are making gains.  Many things can be true at once.  But many people want there to be a sole cause. 

 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:51 AM • (162) Comments

Boy, do I get that all the time. One of the ways I’ve found to deal with it is to point out that I get it all the time, together with a shortlist of suggestions for the next “profound” question. It makes me feel better, but in general is a bad idea unless you’re pretty 100% sure the guy isn’t going to shoot you, cause they get livid. If anything, the idea that their tactic is unoriginal is even worse than the actual put-down.

Comment #1: MarinaS  on  01/10  at  12:37 PM

Yeah, they all think they’re the first to think of it.  In the logic of doing it, that makes sense.  After all, the idea is to stun you into realizing you don’t have a right to opinions.  Thus, they assume that if someone else beat them to the punch, you wouldn’t have opinions, having already been stunned into silence.  That this happens all the time exposes how stupid their brilliant ideas really are.

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/10  at  12:49 PM

Gender will not make it onto the public radar for this horrible crime. Unless it comes out that Gifford was a feminist, in which case cue some lovely concern trolling from right wing ‘feminists’ about keeping your opinions to yourself.

But yes, the Stoner’s Gambit is a popular argumentation technique; I generally toss in a Sapir-Whorf reference and roll right along, as generally no dude who brings up, in a non-linguistics conversation, this concept has ever read anything on the subject.

Comment #3: the duck-billed placelot  on  01/10  at  12:59 PM

It has already, but mostly in the anti-choice coverage, where they take the time to imply the victim had it coming.

I love the Stoner’s Gambit.  I’m stealing that.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/10  at  01:02 PM

We should put that in Urban Dictionary.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/10  at  01:04 PM

I rarely get this in its general form as described in this post, but I do get it in some of its specific forms.  It’s those dudes who think that, “but how can you know that gender disparities aren’t just natural?” or, “but how can you know that plants aren’t sentient?” is some brilliant question that I have never heard before.  Not that there aren’t ways of posing these same questions in good faith, but it’s usually clear by tone, posturing, and the fact that these questions usually arrive in the middle of a barely-related conversation (they think they’re brilliantly cutting to the heart of the matter, because OBVIOUSLY whatever specific issue I’m all worked up about this time would be completely irrelevant if I just realized my entire framework of thought can be blown a way by a single question) that these guys have never considered that they maybe aren’t the smartest person in the room.

Comment #6: mamram  on  01/10  at  01:04 PM

I’m sure you aren’t seriously waiting for a more detailed or nuanced approach to reporting this story. The media loves it when they have one version of the story and they are going to treat you just the way you described here if you try to worry your pretty little head about something deeper and less simplistic than “the tea baggers made him do it”.

This is the most spot on piece that I’ve ever read about the condescending way some guys try to talk to women. Gifford’s response (speaking in Spanish) makes me like her even more because I hadn’t thought of that but will try it the next time this happens to me. I generally point out how unoriginal their comment is which makes some guys angry, but I really don’t care. I’ve never gone out on more than one date with a guy who pulls this nonsense anyway.

This crap does abate slightly as you age, in my experience. Young sexists leave you alone because they are not interested in you. Sexists your own age bring it down a notch because (in my case) I’m their boss so they wouldn’t dare, or some other woman has taken the time to patiently explain this to them before you met them.

Comment #7: serious bette  on  01/10  at  01:10 PM

I think this analysis misses the point. The bottom line is that after being asked “How do you know words mean anything?” the proper response from Ms. Giffords would have been to realize that you can never know words mean anything, stop being a congresswoman, and start becoming a follower of Jared Lee Loughlin. Therein she would prove her right to live, you see.

Comment #8: TonyWu  on  01/10  at  01:16 PM

Right as you are about Loughner in general, the term “mansplaining” is still a ridiculous word meant to attribute annoying behavior everyone does to men alone.  It’s like referring to defecation as “manpeeing” because girls don’t poop.

Comment #9: neff  on  01/10  at  02:10 PM

“but how can you know that plants aren’t sentient?” is some brilliant question that I have never heard before.  Not that there aren’t ways of posing these same questions in good faith,

Yeah, I can see some of those contexts.  “Daddy, does it hurt the tree when you pick the apple?”  A good faith question from a 6-year-old.  “Mom, why does ‘Mom’ mean ‘Mom’?  Who decided that?”  A good faith question from a 9-year-old.  At the other end - legitimate academic inquiry.  “How did the words we have come to be associated with certain objects, actions, or concepts?” might be a good faith question for a linguistics professor (I honestly don’t know enough about linguistics to be sure if that’s a reasonable question or not).  “How do plants respond to trauma or environmental stimulus?” is certainly a whole pack of valid, good faith questions for botanists.  But… none of that applies to a douchebag trying to put a woman ‘in her place’.

Comment #10: libdevil  on  01/10  at  02:14 PM

neff, everyone does everything.  “Mansplaining” is the version of that behavior which has to do with men and the Patriarchy in particular.

Anyways, I submitted it to Urban Dictionary, because I like to feel involved.

Comment #11: Punditus Maximus  on  01/10  at  02:42 PM

Neff, let your aim be true, lest you find you’ve wet your own leg very very thoroughly.

Comment #12: Yamara  on  01/10  at  02:59 PM

Take, for instance, their fury at the social construct of currency—-they just really can’t stand that money has value because people believe it has value and act like it has value, and so they flail around, demanding things like the gold standard, without taking the time to realize that gold only has value for exactly the same reason paper money only has value, which is that people say so.

A little OT, I know, but this brings to mind More’s Utopia, in which the citizens of Utopia demonstrate how little they value gold by using it to make chamber pots and chains for slaves and criminals.  The social construction of money is made pretty obvious there.

Comment #13: Linnaeus  on  01/10  at  03:16 PM

But by far, my least favorite mansplaining is the “How do you know what you know?” mansplaining.

I’ll add another form of this, which is the Objectivist/Libertarian “I’m gonna blow your mind” revelation, which always ends up being bloody obvious and trite and belies their self-proclaimed status of smartest guy in the room.

If you continue the conversation and dare to point out where their arguments run into the hard wall of reality, these guys slip right into debate-club nerd mode (which they’ve never grown out of) and add further “mind-blowing” observations which most of us recognise as tiresome semantics games, logical fallacies and JAQ-ing off.

And yeah, nine times out of ten it’s a male Libertarian making these “brilliant” philosophical observations (“philosophical” because they’ve transcended politics). Sometimes, FSM help them, they’re actually trying to impress a girl with their superior intellects.

Finally trust the right-wing “Patriot Movement” (specifically this David Wynn Miller character) to bridge this kind of anti-government “brilliance” with Timecube-style whackadoodle and attract the mentally ill to their ranks. Not every mentally ill person who makes violent threats follows through (see, for example, anti-atheist Dennis Markuze), but once in a while—especially when a politician or celebrity is involved—someone like Loughner is going to act out.

Comment #14: Gracchus.  on  01/10  at  03:17 PM

C’mon, neff, don’t manpee all over the thread.

Comment #15: Bagelsan  on  01/10  at  03:21 PM

neff, it’s mansplaining when it is done by a man specifically and only to women to try to treat them as unthinking children.  Otherwise the guy or gal doing said condescending shit is just a pompous ass, not a mansplaining pompous ass.

Comment #16: helen w. h.  on  01/10  at  03:23 PM

Anyways, I submitted it to Urban Dictionary, because I like to feel involved.


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mansplain
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mansplaining

which one is your one? I’m guessing it isn’t the one that claims its an attempt to discredit anything a man said although that hasn’t been there long so perhaps a lurking troll made it just for you

Comment #17: pharmakos  on  01/10  at  03:25 PM

See, when I come up with these questions about philosophy and linguistics, and find out that people have ALREADY thought about them and come pretty close to answering them, I feel first a) annoyed that I couldn’t think of them first and b) intrigued because generally I get to go into deeper depth.  I don’t think “Here’s a perfect question to ask Senator Franken”.  That’s the part that kills me- if you get to ask a senator something, you should have it be, I dunno, relevant to the political context.  “Do you think the health care reform, as it stands, is all the country needs?” or something to that effect.

It continues to baffle me where this overwhelming sense of entitlement comes from in a lot of men I know.

Comment #18: Antigone  on  01/10  at  03:26 PM

The gender issue was brought up on another blog and it really got me thinking about it.  I definitely think it played a part in this.  I think a lot of Palin supporters are misogynist and therefore resentful that there’s a woman in power.  But she gives them what they want so they have to tolerate her, and then take their misogyny out elsewhere.  I think attacking non-conservative women also reinforces to conservative women that they really are second-class citizens and it could easily be them if they go against the misogynists.

Oh, also, when I was about 8 years old, I would sometimes argue with my best friend at the time.  And whenever it got the point where she was still angry but didn’t have anything valid to say, she would just repeat “How do you know?” in response to anything I said.  She grew into an adult and stopped doing that, so I don’t know what this guy’s problem is.

Comment #19: bananacat  on  01/10  at  03:32 PM

I will point out, however, that “how would you go about falsifying that?” is a valid criticism of a statement, and not a Stoner’s Gambit.

Comment #20: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/10  at  03:33 PM

I may have giggled out loud at the adoption of the term ‘Stoner’s Gambit’.

As far as legitimate linguistic/philosophy questions…sure, I mean, signs and semiotics and meaning and language are pretty rich areas of inquiry. But they’re also very deep areas, with lots and lots of amazing thought and literature on the subject. I think we can all agree that a jerk losing an argument who responded with, “You’re just a figment of my imagination” is, you know, a jerk losing an argument, not an existentialist philosopher.

Comment #21: the duck-billed placelot  on  01/10  at  03:42 PM

We had a class in high school called “Theory of Knowledge” which included a section called “How do you know you know” (about all I remember is that it had something to do with epistemology, and the “professor” had a habit of sticking one leg up on a desk so we all had an unobstructed view of his crotch). I’m sure there was some deeper phiolosophical issue to be discussed, but it rapidly slid into solipsism. The whole thing struck me as so much BS that I am still continually surprised that it interests anyone beyond the time it takes to ask the question. The answer seems so moronically simple, which I guess is why it appeals to the same sort of conspiracy theory nuts who want to prove they’re “too smart” to accept reality.

It’s the same sort of people who still think “It was all a dream” makes for a mind-blowing movie experience and not a total waste of two hours and twenty bucks. (cf, Shutter Island, Boxing Helena, The Matrix, 1408, Vanilla Sky/Abre los Ojos, Jacob’s Ladder, Invaders from Mars, and Inception which - let’s admit it - is just the Phd version of Total Recall).

Comment #22: Egnu Cledge  on  01/10  at  03:45 PM

Piator: HWYGAFT?

Context is all.

This is interesting, because one of the questions I’ve often wanted to ask politicians is “Isn’t everything you’re saying just a big pile of kabuki?” But it seems pointless to actually do so.

Comment #23: paul  on  01/10  at  03:48 PM

See, when I come up with these questions about philosophy and linguistics, and find out that people have ALREADY thought about them and come pretty close to answering them, I feel first a) annoyed that I couldn’t think of them first and b) intrigued because generally I get to go into deeper depth.

What I hate worse is answering questions like those and finding out I could have read the book of the first person to figure it out and saved myself some brain power.  This is what I get for finding most philosophy a boring read.  Thank goodness for wikipedia.

Comment #24: bomberE  on  01/10  at  03:51 PM

Piator: HWYGAFT?

That particular hobby-horse of mine was inspired by New Agers waffling about “energy”.  I was driven once to be very mean to one by asking them very specific questions regarding frequencies and spectrums…

Comment #25: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/10  at  03:56 PM

I don’t think “Here’s a perfect question to ask Senator Franken”.  That’s the part that kills me- if you get to ask a senator something, you should have it be, I dunno, relevant to the political context

Public speakers will tell you that when it comes time for the Q&A;portion of the event, there’s at least one person in the audience ready to rock on their crazy little hobby horse for a “question” of at least 5-minutes’ duration. In my anecdotal experience, though, the gender of the crazy mic-hog at a public lecture (as opposed to a classroom setting or a blog comment section) is just as if not more likely to be female. No idea why this is.

That particular hobby-horse of mine was inspired by New Agers waffling about “energy”.  I was driven once to be very mean to one by asking them very specific questions regarding frequencies and spectrums.

If one of them starts giving specific answers to such questions, that’s a good sign to back away slowly and politely while scanning him for weapons or sharp objects.

Comment #26: Gracchus.  on  01/10  at  04:05 PM

I just realized that the only time a man hit me was a mansplaining incident.  My older boyfriend was helping me and a friend prepare for an organic chemistry test from a notoriously tough prof.  He approached it from the lofty perch of someone who took the course the year before.  I saw an old test, with his note asking the prof to give him more points on a problem, saying the grade didn’t fairly reflect the worth of his answer.  The prof agreed, saying if he’d been grading the test he wouldn’t have given him any points at all.  I said “so you didn’t have a perfect run in organic?”  Bam, punched me in the arm.  Like a dummy, I didn’t break up with him that moment.

Comment #27: gretchen  on  01/10  at  04:05 PM

re: “Stoner’s gambit”—it’s interesting that we ended up with a Mad Men episode about this.

Comment #28: Dan Watson  on  01/10  at  04:34 PM

Why am I not surprised that someone on Urban Dictionary got butthurt enough to add a “this is just what the silly women say when you’re dropping Truth bombs” definition to ‘mansplaining’?

Comment #29: BlackBloc  on  01/10  at  04:46 PM

the term “mansplaining” is still a ridiculous word meant to attribute annoying behavior everyone does to men alone.

You’re an idiot.

Not coincidentally, “mansplaining” is a term for the specific kind of explaining that happens when a man has been conditioned to think of himself as a great thinker even though he’s an idiot.

Comment #30: kristin  on  01/10  at  04:47 PM

#9 mansplaining mansplainer mansplains how mansplaining is reverse sexism!!11~~!!  lol excellent way to prove Amanda’s point.

Comment #31: Rare Vos  on  01/10  at  04:51 PM

Amanda’s probably right, though it’s worth noting that America has been a bellicose country since its founding—Howard Zinn pretty well demonstrated that, for instance—and thus I’d be a little reticent to be so reductivist as to the gender politics involved. It may be that quite apart from gender issues, the various mythologies that have been cultivated in our history—violent revolution over the British, violent conquest of the West including over the Indians, violent resolution to the conflict over slavery, violence used to save Europe in World Wars I and II—that this sort of thing is just burned into our DNA.

Comment #32: Dilan Esper  on  01/10  at  04:51 PM

“Stoner’s gambit” for me is cutting fine the time between getting high and the beginning of the two-hour faculty meeting. Works better if I bring antihistamine nose-sprayer thingie and several tissues.

Comment #33: felagund  on  01/10  at  04:52 PM

We need to name a new law.  Ever since “mansplain” has been coined, basically every thread that ever mentions it ends up with a mansplainer on it.  I’m not so great at coming up with clever names; does anyone else have ideas?  “Mainsplainer’s Law” just doesn’t have a good ring to it.

Comment #34: bananacat  on  01/10  at  05:11 PM

If you mention it, they will come.

‘Splaining Certainty Principle? (also applicable to whitesplaining, cisplaining, straightsplaining, etc)

Comment #35: bomberE  on  01/10  at  05:16 PM

Godwin’s Law, Version XY?

Comment #36: Mistercat  on  01/10  at  05:18 PM

“Neff’s Law?”

Re: How would you go about falsifying that?

See Not even wrong.  It’s a fairly well known concept in scientific and logical communities.

Comment #37: libdevil  on  01/10  at  05:23 PM

Public speakers will tell you that when it comes time for the Q&A;portion of the event, there’s at least one person in the audience ready to rock on their crazy little hobby horse for a “question” of at least 5-minutes’ duration.

That was my reading of the 2007 story. Asking a politician at a public meeting how words mean anything screams “oddball”. I think it was less Giffords wanting to put Loughner in his place and more “This guy’s going to spend the next 10 minutes talking about how the UN is secretly run by lizard people from Venus if I give him an opening”.

I suppose anyone who runs public meetings on a regular basis has developed strategies for this type of thing.

Comment #38: Nobody  on  01/10  at  05:33 PM

That interest might have triggered Mr. Loughner’s first meeting with Ms. Giffords in 2007. Mr. Loughner said he asked the lawmaker, “How do you know words mean anything?” recalled Mr. Montanaro. He said Mr. Loughner was “aggravated” when Ms. Giffords, after pausing for a couple of seconds, “responded to him in Spanish and moved on with the meeting.”

That’s pretty damned funny.

What we’re learning in the aftermath of this is something Americans are probably not equipped to deal with, in our one-note, over-simplified public discourse.

I knew there was something frightening about our MSM

Comment #39: cynickal  on  01/10  at  05:34 PM

That was a simply beautiful riposte by Gifford to that dumbshit question, deftly illustrating the answer.  I’m impressed.

Now I hope even more she makes as good a recovery as possible.

Comment #40: Eric_RoM  on  01/10  at  05:39 PM

#11, Punditus: I went to the UD and gave “mansplaining” a thumbsup, number 12 in fact.  Happy to report there’s zero thumbsdowns at this time.

Comment #41: Eric_RoM  on  01/10  at  05:47 PM

Actually, “how do you know” is a good question when you don’t know something, but claim it to be fact.

You don’t know that he shot Giffords because she was a woman. And that’s a fact.

If Giffords had been a man and given that same response, would Loughner have liked the response any better?

When male politicians are killed, is it because they are men?

I like how Amanda asserts women = smart, men = dumb, and the commenters all agree.

Also, you’re quite wrong in your assessment re: gold and paper money.

Paper money has become worthless many times and in many societies. Gold has remained valuable over many centuries, because it is impossible to reproduce.

Paper money has no use in itself, whereas gold has many uses for decoration, artwork, electronics, etc. http://geology.com/minerals/gold/uses-of-gold.shtml

These two differences are quite significant and prove that gold and paper are in no way comparable.

Comment #42: Celda  on  01/10  at  05:49 PM

@42: Seriously, you’re going to go with ‘paper money has no use’?

1) It’s combustible
2) It can be used to wipe your ass
3) It can be used to snort cocaine (or whatever other substance you used to short out your brain this way)

Also, I defy you to demonstrate that Amanda ever said women smart, men dumb.

That is, of course, all assuming you’re not trying to cleverly demonstrate what mansplaining is by doing it on purpose.

Comment #43: BlackBloc  on  01/10  at  05:56 PM

Actually, “how do you know” is a good question when you don’t know something, but claim it to be fact.

How do you know that?

If Giffords had been a man and given that same response, would Loughner have liked the response any better?

What?

Paper money has no use in itself, whereas gold has many uses for decoration, artwork, electronics, etc. http://geology.com/minerals/gold/uses-of-gold.shtml

These two differences are quite significant and prove that gold and paper are in no way comparable.

Comment #42: Celda


Wait… Paper can’t be used in art or for decoration?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper

Damnit BlackBloc (Can I shorten that down to BB?) stop pointing out obvious fallacies in the troll’s argument.
As a man, it’s the only way I can feel smart on this blog.  wink

Comment #44: cynickal  on  01/10  at  06:04 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper#Applications

My favorite: as a core material for sandwich composites.  When economic meltdown or whatever renders your dollar bills useless as currency, turn them into a ultralight composite chassis to replace your steel clunker of a car’s.  The fuel savings will be a bonus, since you won’t be able to afford much gas at post-inflation prices. 

Also, if wingnuts don’t like paper money what’s stopping them from investing all of their savings in gold and converting it to useable cash as they go?  Why do they care what the rest of us do?

Comment #45: mamram  on  01/10  at  06:07 PM

Oops, cynickal beat me to it.

Comment #46: mamram  on  01/10  at  06:10 PM

As a man, it’s the only way I can feel smart on this blog.

Do what I do and remain insufferably smug in contemplation of your own magnificent wisdom.  It’s a wonderful way to avoid having to deal with acknowledging prat-falls.

Comment #47: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/10  at  06:11 PM

Please, I see enough damn buy gold comercials as it is….

Comment #48: helen w. h.  on  01/10  at  06:12 PM

Always great to hear grand economic “proofs” from someone obviously unfamiliar with the term “scarcity value,” Celda. Or from someone who clearly can’t make the distinction between reproduction, refinement, and manufacture or comprehend (per BlackBloc) the difference between material and function. Then again, we can’t expect much from someone with far more profound difficulties with reading comprehension.

Not that I blame you for your zeal, Celda—based on the above, I’m sure you were an excellent mark for Glenn Beck’s gold scam.

Comment #49: Gracchus.  on  01/10  at  06:15 PM

Paper is far more useful than gold, IMO.  However, most money is electronic now anyway.  Money has value because people agree that it has value and because there are things available to purchase with that money.  It doesn’t matter if it is made of metal, paper, or an abstract idea.  If I hold $10 in paper money or in a gold coin, it’s worth something to me only because of what I can buy with it, not because of any inherent property to the material.

Terry Pratchett actually wrote a very funny novel about this concept, called Making Money.  It was intended to be humorous but it was actually very insightful.  He’s a philosopher disguised as a comedian.  His books are pretty easy reads too, so I recommend this one to everyone here.

Comment #50: bananacat  on  01/10  at  06:18 PM

Did anybody listen to the most recent This American Life on this very topic?  I recommend it.

Comment #51: mamram  on  01/10  at  06:21 PM

Perhaps blinded by my own privilege, I had not even considered the gender angle.

My initial take (and this may still be a part of the puzzle) is that this was yet another nerdy, unattractive high school outcast who, a la Columbine shooters, developed a dangerous narcissistic personality disorder to deal with rejection.

Comment #52: John Joel Glanton  on  01/10  at  06:21 PM

We need to name a new law.  Ever since “mansplain” has been coined, basically every thread that ever mentions it ends up with a mansplainer on it.  I’m not so great at coming up with clever names; does anyone else have ideas?  “Mainsplainer’s Law” just doesn’t have a good ring to it.

Catgirl’s Law of Recursive Mansplanation.

Comment #53: Dan  on  01/10  at  06:26 PM

@50: Those who fall for the gold scams must have complete freakouts when it comes to buying digital objects.

Somebody once asked me why I was so foolish as to buy a piece of cardboard (Magic card) for 20$. I asked why they were so foolish as to think their piece of paper with “20$” on it was worth anything (answer: social consensus, just like my Magic card). They took the point. But even though their entire bank account basically only exists as bits on some hard drive and their entire life savings are based on trust that society will honor the value of those bits, they never accepted that spending to get the same 20$ card on Magic Online could be justified as well.

Note: I’m aware that my Magic collection’s value is more likely to wildly fluctuate than legal tender. wink

Comment #54: BlackBloc  on  01/10  at  06:27 PM

All paper money really is is a fancy barter system that allows specialization.  If I’m good at making hammers, I can churn out more hammers than I need.  And more hammers than anybody I’m likely to deal with in a month or a year will need.  I could trade my hammer to the guy who raises chickens for some eggs, but… when I need more eggs, he doesn’t need another hammer.  So instead I trade it to a gal who makes shoes.  And trade the shoes to the guy who makes eggs.  And so on.  But, maybe, instead, I trade my hammer for a piece of paper that is arbitrarily worth a certain amount of production.  And trade that paper for eggs.  With those pieces of paper, I can trade my hammers to whoever needs hammers, and get eggs or shoes or whatever it is I need, even if the egg guy or the shoe gal don’t need more hammers.

Comment #55: libdevil  on  01/10  at  06:28 PM

You can also use paper currency for paper-mâché, decoration, and origami.

You can use aluminum for decoration, artwork, electronics, etc.

Platinum is even less reactive than gold, why not go to the Platinum standard?

I suggest we switch to an information standard. Information has a plethora of uses and has inherent value.

Comment #56: BenYitzhak  on  01/10  at  06:33 PM

Libdevil, you obviously don’t understand the libertarian mindset at all.

With your hammers, you walk up to the gal who makes shoes and yell “GIMME YOUR FUCKING SHOES OR I BASH YOUR FUCKING HEAD IN!”

She may in turn tromp over to the guy who makes eggs in a pair of awesome cleats and threaten to stomp on his chicken’s necks if he doesn’t give her some eggs.

He may in turn arm himself with a basket of his most rottenest of rotten eggs and show up at your door, and demand your finest hammer, or else he’ll pelt those rotten eggs at your daughter on her way to school.

Jeez, you wouldn’t last a day in the new Libertarian paradise.

Comment #57: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/10  at  06:33 PM

That SPLC article was particularly lame.

The idea that silver and gold are the only “constitutional” money is widespread in the antigovernment “Patriot” movement that produced so much violence in the 1990s.

Talk about guilt by association. The idea that silver & gold are the only constitutional money comes straight from the constitution, Article I, Section 10:

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts

“Money should be gold/silver” = “Patriot” = “1990s violence”. In other words, Hitler had a moustache,  Tom Friedman has a moustache, therefore Tom Friedman is Hitler.

...paper money — what they refer to with a sneer as “Federal Reserve notes”...

Jeebus! Is the SPLC so poor they’ve never seen a dollar bill? Or do they just think George Washington is sneering at them?

It’s linked to the core Patriot theory that the Federal Reserve is actually a private corporation ...

Ummm. The Federal Reserve IS a private corporation. Its board of directors consists of the good folks from JP Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, and several other TBTF banks. Given the actions of the Federal Reserve in response to the GFC, it is not unreasonable to question whether they are not in fact more beholden to their owners than to to the public or the public good. In any case, this is another “Hitler’s moustache” comment.

Is Jared Lee Loughner, the alleged mass murderer who shot U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona, a right-wing extremist?

It’s hard to say.

Too bad the author didn’t quit while he was ahead.

Comment #58: shargash  on  01/10  at  06:34 PM

Ironically there IS a massive status-quo protecting element of language.  Consider how male/female pronouns are used.  Take a hypothetical doctor - do you use she or he when referring to her without knowing her gender?  There are lots of other examples - I had a class on language and culture 15 years ago.  I appreciate it a lot more now, and also notice how some of the most egregious pro-male subliminal language massaging has changed in those 15 years.

Comment #59: winstongator  on  01/10  at  06:35 PM

You can also use paper currency for paper-mâché, decoration, and origami.

Exactly. Just trying making this awesome art with gold!

Jeez, you wouldn’t last a day in the new Libertarian paradise.

Neither would most Libertarians. Wonderlands like Somalia tend to be very unforgiving to 4th-rate intellectuals.

Comment #60: Gracchus.  on  01/10  at  06:41 PM

We need to name a new law.  Ever since “mansplain” has been coined, basically every thread that ever mentions it ends up with a mansplainer on it.  I’m not so great at coming up with clever names; does anyone else have ideas?  “Mainsplainer’s Law” just doesn’t have a good ring to it.

Ego-feeding frenzy (you throw a little blood into the water, and the snarks arrive…)

I suggest we switch to an information standard. Information has a plethora of uses and has inherent value.

Ah, no.  Information can reproduce easily, cannot be traded away, and cannot be controlled without some serious and strongly artificial intervention.  Further, its value is contextual and not fungible.

Indeed, there’s a good case for “info-socialism”, treating information and intellectual property as public goods and encouraging people to reproduce it at will for economic gain.

Comment #61: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/10  at  06:46 PM

Perhaps the articles I have read have been wrong. But judging from their pictures and writings alone, I have great difficulty believing those boys were anything approaching “popular bullies” at any point.

Another example would be the VA Tech shooter. Certainly you would consider him an outcast.

Comment #62: John Joel Glanton  on  01/10  at  06:54 PM

<blockquote>Almost everything you believe you know about Columbine may be wrong.<blockquote>

Egad, that’s usually true. I’d actually read some of the in-depth post-massacre coverage Dave Cullen did for Salon and Slate and there were a lot of things in his book that surprised me.

Comment #63: witless chum  on  01/10  at  06:59 PM

Talk about guilt by association. The idea that silver & gold are the only constitutional money comes straight from the constitution, Article I, Section 10:

Good thing history ended in 1776, otherwise things like a global economy based on the Bretton Woods Act would be a reality.

“Money should be gold/silver” = “Patriot” = “1990s violence”. In other words, Hitler had a moustache, Tom Friedman has a moustache, therefore Tom Friedman is Hitler.

Awesome objectivism there, so what else occurs in a vacuum?
I mean, besides sound (and in this case context) not traveling through it?

Ummm. The Federal Reserve IS a private corporation.

Not quite.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrs.htm

Comment #64: cynickal  on  01/10  at  07:07 PM

Err… Bretton Woods Agreement.  Not Act.
See what happens when I try and be smart.
:(

Comment #65: cynickal  on  01/10  at  07:09 PM

Talk about guilt by association. The idea that silver & gold are the only constitutional money comes straight from the constitution, Article I, Section 10

You did notice the word “State” in your citation, right? State != citizen. Jefferson & co. really didn’t care whether citizens (individually or en masse) paid each-other in bananas, hammers, shoes, or (as colonial-era and early 18th c. examples will attest) banknotes, letters of credit or private written agreements. Article 1 Section 10 is about defining a nation-state in the context of (amongst other things) a global economic system that, at the time, used precious metal standards.

The Federal Reserve IS a private corporation.

They’re not private corporations in the sense that your average “Patriot” moron understands the term (i.e. for-profit, potential ownership by individuals, infallible). They are organised like private corporations, and there’s certainly an form of regulatory capture at work, but the Federal Reserve banks are non-profit and ownership is limited to member banks only.

Too bad the author didn’t quit while he was ahead.

Why? It is hard to say at this point. The guy is apparently as much a fan of We the Living and Mein Kampf as he was of Animal Farm and The Communist Manifesto. He may have been a right-wing extremist, a left-wing one, a muddled extremist, and/or mentally ill. But as the SPLC correctly notes, he was obsessed to the struggle between the individual and the state—to the point of solipsism, I’d add.

Comment #66: Gracchus.  on  01/10  at  07:27 PM

Good thing history ended in 1776, otherwise things like a global economy based on the Bretton Woods Act would be a reality.

Know-Nothing populists are wed to the idea of a mercantilist American economy—goes hand-in-hand with keeping out those nasty immigrants, and the belief that natural resources are infinite. There’s irony to spare in some of these dopes claiming the legacy of the Boston Tea Party.

Comment #67: Gracchus.  on  01/10  at  07:44 PM

I didn’t say paper has no use. Paper MONEY is useless other than the already existing uses of paper. There is no instrumental reason to produce paper money instead of other kinds of paper other than the fact that paper money is used as currency.

That’s like saying if computers didn’t exist, keyboards would still be useful as paperweights. Therefore we should keep making keyboards, since they are useful as paperweights.

Also, no one addressed my statement about how paper money has frequently become worthless while gold never has. Because no one could refute that.

As for where Amanda said men = dumb, women = smart:

“So, he decides to treat the woman—-who is inevitably better-read, more thoughtful, and often actually has a sense of humor, unlike the mansplainer-”

@44

Because otherwise anyone can claim anything they like as fact whether they have proof or not. Come on, that’s pretty obvious.

Not sure what the video you linked to has to do with this discussion, please spell it out.

@49

What economic “proofs” did I describe?

Oh that’s right, none.

All I mentioned were facts, namely that paper money has frequently become worthless, whereas gold never has. And that paper money is inherently useless while gold is not.

Comment #68: Celda  on  01/10  at  07:44 PM

I originally thought “mansplaining” was doing the Cliff Clavin style making-shit-up explanation to answer any question.  But apparently I was wrong, and it’s mansplaining whenever a man tries to explain something that a woman presumably has a better insight into due to her gender, or something like that.

How asking a (stupid, irrelevant) question is mansplaining has not been made apparent to me.  The “Stoner’s Gambit” style of argumentation is not unique in its use against women.  It’s used against men too.  Right-wing assholes are assholes to everyone; it’s just a bonus in their minds to use it to put down uppity females.

You don’t know that he shot Giffords because she was a woman.

Good thing that’s not what Amanda said, then.  She said misogyny was involved, not that it was the only factor.  There’s probably something to that theory, though not necessarily as much as Amanda thinks.  But there I go mansplaining again.

Comment #69: liberalrob  on  01/10  at  07:46 PM

I didn’t say paper has no use. Paper MONEY is useless other than the already existing uses of paper.

Paper has multiple uses, one of which is stock material for currency. Gold has multiple uses, one of which is stock material for currency.

You, on the other hand, were saying paper money has no use. Then you said gold (not necessarily numismatic) has many uses. Gold != numismatic gold coinage, and paper != banknotes.

<blockquote>What economic “proofs” did I describe?<,blockquote>

You claimed Amanda’s assessment re: gold and paper money (i.e. an economic assessment) was incorrect. You then set out to prove (albeit in an incompetent manner that betrayed your ignorance) why she was incorrect by mentioning facts. Are you now saying you were doing something else—spouting facts for no reason at all, perhaps?

[Since you’re still having trouble with reading comprehension, I’ve boldfaced the key terms]

Comment #70: Gracchus.  on  01/10  at  07:56 PM

Celda,

Amanda didn’t say all men are dumb and all women are smart as you assert.  She was describing mansplainer-types.  Try re-reading.

Liberalrob, mansplaining is when an asshole who is male asserts his privilege as male and condescendingly snarks at a woman attempting to shut her up or down.  It’s done by the kind of guy who would agree with the woman’s idea, should it be expressed by a man.

Women, being second class citizens and not proper humans, are undoubtedly more aware of the problem seeing as they are the victims of it.

We could also have “White-splaining” where white people explain the realities of the minority situation to POC.

It’s condescending assholery of an oft-repeated type.  Oft-repeated enough that the victims understand the neologism immediately.

Comment #71: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/10  at  07:59 PM

To make things more clear for you, Celda, if you had argued on the basis of the scarcity of gold as a raw material, you might have had a slightly better case. Of course, then you would have been deluged with a discussion of artificial scarcity (which isn’t a ba-ad scary thing—your beloved private corporations use it as a standard tool), no doubt follwed by discussions of anti-counterfeiting measures and strong cryptography and electronic money. As it is, you exposed yourself as an ignoramus right away.

Comment #72: Gracchus.  on  01/10  at  08:04 PM

They’re not private corporations in the sense that your average “Patriot” moron understands the term (i.e. for-profit, potential ownership by individuals, infallible). They are organised like private corporations, and there’s certainly an form of regulatory capture at work, but the Federal Reserve banks are non-profit and ownership is limited to member banks only.

Even this is conceding too much to the anti-Fed nuts.

Monetary policy is not made by the federal reserve banks. They just carry it out.

Monetary policy is made by the FOMC, which is your classic governmental administrative agency staffed by the executive branch and Congress.

Comment #73: Dilan Esper  on  01/10  at  08:05 PM

I like how Amanda asserts women = smart, men = dumb, and the commenters all agree.

I like how Celda’s little journeys into Make-Believe Land are consistently entertaining in their complete fail.

Comment #74: kristin  on  01/10  at  08:11 PM

Personally, I’m glad money isn’t attached to a real-world object.  That means that all real-world objects are free to change their value in relation to one another.

We literally would not have iPods at the cost of what huge stereos when I was a child did, if their cost was attached to one of the specific metals inside, rather than being able to be invested upon by agreed-upon leverage.

When gold was the medium of exchange, even if you created value - by invention or creation - it was very difficult to realize that value.  Someone had to dig gold from the ground, put it in a bank, and then that bank had to value your value.  We’ve democratized it, because any bank of sufficient worth need not be constrained by the monetary supply (IE, gold) to lend based upon your value.

Mostly this (along with other developments) has lead to less recessions and longer booms, instead of short, harsh boom-bust cycles with uneven rewards depending upon technology available to pull gold from the ground.

Comment #75: Crissa  on  01/10  at  08:12 PM

I disagree that “How do you know what you know?” is necessarily “mansplaining” just because in this case it was asked by a man to a woman. I’ve had plenty of arguments with global climate change deniers wherein presented with the data in support of global climate change, they will resort to desperate reaches into epistemology.

Comment #76: pablo  on  01/10  at  08:42 PM

“That interest might have triggered Mr. Loughner’s first meeting with Ms. Giffords in 2007. Mr. Loughner said he asked the lawmaker, “How do you know words mean anything?””

Our real-life Travis Bickle is really an intellectual in disguise.  Except for that whole shooting people thing.

There are, however, much bigger, and much more important questions:

How do we know we’re not sitting in individual gelatin-filled containers, wired up to provide energy to a bunch of machines that in turn fool us into believing we’re free to move about and interact in a world that exists only as a construct?

How do you know Arnold Schwarzenegger is actually a real person? 

How do you know DNA really exists?

Fucking magnets, how do they work?...

Comment #77: MikeEss  on  01/10  at  09:17 PM

I disagree that “How do you know what you know?” is necessarily “mansplaining” just because in this case it was asked by a man to a woman. I’ve had plenty of arguments with global climate change deniers wherein presented with the data in support of global climate change, they will resort to desperate reaches into epistemology.

I’m not going to dive completely back into the “mansplaining” debate, but suffice to say that if people want this to be more than simply a form of snark to be directed at males who comment (sometimes cluelessly) on feminist issues, it requires a much more precise definition of what does and doesn’t constitute “mansplaining”, along with a commitment to use the term consistently. At least some commenters here use it to mean either “anything a male says that I disagree with” or maybe “any trolling by male commenters”, which is really not how the term was originally defined.

Now if it’s just going to be snark that means “you’re a man and you got it wrong”, that’s fine, I guess, but then it shouldn’t be mistaken for actual content or theory. But I get the feeling that at least some people want the term to do some actual substantive work in describing a particular anti-feminist phenomenon, and it can’t do that if it’s just thrown about indiscriminately.

Comment #78: Dilan Esper  on  01/10  at  09:21 PM

All I mentioned were facts, namely that paper money has frequently become worthless, whereas gold never has. And that paper money is inherently useless while gold is not.

What is the inherent value of gold? And what is the unit of measurement by which that inherent value is measured?

Comment #79: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  01/10  at  09:47 PM

Answering “How do you know words mean anything?” in Spanish (or any non-English language) is absolutely brilliant in a Zen sort of way. It points up how words can mean something even if the listener doesn’t understand them. Perhaps it’s my love of lateral thinking, but it seems like a much better answer than an explanation referring to linguistics or philosophy.

The more I hear about Giffords the more I wish she were my representative; so very sad to learn of her in these circumstances.

Comment #80: weirdnoise  on  01/10  at  10:13 PM

With regard to the question, “how do you know what you know?”, it does seem as if males tend to have a harder time figuring out the difference between ideology and reality than females of the same level of intelligence do.  Perhaps Loughner was engaged in this kind of search for meaning.  As the post above suggests, he wanted to be able to differentiate between socially constructed meaning and meaning that has enduring value.  (This is to lend some intelligibility to an otherwise unintelligible project. It is the kindest light I could put this in.)  He also wanted a way out of a situation where social control and ideological spinning coupled with a reality where everything seemed to be too systematised (as per the quote in the WSJ article).

I think the inability to distinguish between ideology and a deeper level of reality is part of the logic of the patriarchal construction of reality, which was from its inception religious.  Males were told that they were better than women for transcendental reasons—because “God” had ordained it this way.  Consequently, males believed it, but this was a form of psychological flattery that, whilst consolidating a male supremacist position in many ways, also robbed males of their ability to pay attention to their own experiences and to learn from them.  When ideology had so much to offer and when the pull of ideology was in the opposite direction to personal experience (which surely does not suggest that males are uniformly superior to women in all ways), one succumbed to ideological flattery.

This situation of not knowing how to pay attention to the meanings entailed in personal experiences, however, is a debilitating one.  It seems that women “know what they know” because they’ve often developed a strong capacity to observe their own experiences and learn from them.  On the other hand, males very often have shied away from doing this.  They do not know how they know things.  Furthermore, the patriarchal game of bluff—achieved by feigning intellectual and knowing superiority in the face of not knowing anything at all—seems to be failing more and more these days. 

I think a lot of males feel that they have been cheated, but they can’t quite work out why this is.  They are not prepared to analyse how it is that the ideological system that was designed to give them systematic advantages seems to be setting them up to fail. 

Many males are quite angry because their transcendental “truths” are not truths anymore.

This seems to be related to a desire to return to reductionistic “facts”, or failing this, to the ostensible objectivity of mathematics.  (I noted similarities in Assange’s diary and Loughner’s YouTube writings.  Both express this drive to prove male superiority through posing as being ‘objective’ with numbers.)

Comment #81: scratchy888  on  01/10  at  10:22 PM

Catgirl’s Law of Recursive Mansplanation.

I love it!  But let’s go with The Law of Recursive Mansplanation.  This is the only place where I still use catgirl as my ID.

@MP #57

I love you so hard in a strictly platonic way.

Comment #82: bananacat  on  01/10  at  10:32 PM

But apparently I was wrong, and it’s mansplaining whenever a man tries to explain something that a woman presumably has a better insight into due to her gender, or something like that.

Not exactly.  It’s more of a case of a pompous asshole who condescendingly assumes that the woman he’s ‘splaining too is less informed than he is based mostly on her gender.  It’s a subset of pomposity and condescension that applies to men who have a double standard and do it to women more than other men.  It’s like the dood I used to work with that assumed I needed advice on how to use a razor blade in spite of my engineering degree, but he never treated the male coworkers the same way.

Comment #83: bananacat  on  01/10  at  10:43 PM

Strictly? There’s not even the possibility of a little bit of non-platonic hard-lovin’? :(

Comment #84: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/10  at  10:45 PM

Platonic love is disgusting.

He’s been dead for three thousand years - leave him alone!

Comment #85: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/10  at  11:28 PM

Good thing that’s not what Amanda said, then.  She said misogyny was involved, not that it was the only factor.

Ok, and my point doesn’t change: Amanda does not know that *one of the reasons* Loughner shot Giffords was because she was a woman. Yet, Amanda says she knows this to be true, even though there is no evidence for that.

“Paper has multiple uses, one of which is stock material for currency. Gold has multiple uses, one of which is stock material for currency.

You, on the other hand, were saying paper money has no use. Then you said gold (not necessarily numismatic) has many uses. Gold != numismatic gold coinage, and paper != banknotes. “

That’s right. Paper money—and the currency that the paper money represents (yen, dollars, pesos, etc.) has no external use in itself. That is a simple fact, why do you keep arguing about it?

Gold, however, does have an external use in itself, even if it were not as a currency. That is another simple fact.

You claimed Amanda’s assessment re: gold and paper money (i.e. an economic assessment) was incorrect. You then set out to prove (albeit in an incompetent manner that betrayed your ignorance) why she was incorrect by mentioning facts. Are you now saying you were doing something else—spouting facts for no reason at all, perhaps?

Wow….so if someone said “the esophagus is responsible for circulation of the blood” and I said that that is false, the esophagus is for food to enter the digestive system, that would be a “grand medical proof” according to you?

To make things more clear for you, Celda, if you had argued on the basis of the scarcity of gold as a raw material, you might have had a slightly better case. Of course, then you would have been deluged with a discussion of artificial scarcity (which isn’t a ba-ad scary thing—your beloved private corporations use it as a standard tool), no doubt follwed by discussions of anti-counterfeiting measures and strong cryptography and electronic money. As it is, you exposed yourself as an ignoramus right away.

What does this have to do with the fact that gold is impossible to create (there’s a finite amount of gold in the world, no one can create more of it), while paper money (currency) can, and has in the past, be printed at will (making it worthless)?

What is the inherent value of gold? And what is the unit of measurement by which that inherent value is measured?

You cannot measure the inherent value of anything. Value is what people are willing to give for something. which changes constantly. There are however inherent uses. Water has an inherent use, you can drink it. Bricks have an inherent use, you can build with them. Paper money (currency) has no inherent use, whereas gold does.

Comment #86: Celda  on  01/10  at  11:37 PM

Right-wing assholes are assholes to everyone; it’s just a bonus in their minds to use it to put down uppity females.

You see, mansplaining is a bit like this right here. You’re telling a bunch of women about how right-wing assholes get an extra thrill out of putting down women in particular. Who, of all of us, d’you think knows that best, you or all the women who have themselves been put down this way? Surely the target of that special assholishness (not you) is the most intimately familiar with it?

The term “mansplaining” is, imho, mostly relevant when a man is trying to explain something to a woman that she is already uniquely knowledgeable about (particularly due to her gender) with an extra dollop of irony because he likely sees her as uniquely incapable of already understanding the situation (due to her gender.) Extra points if she is also uniquely knowledgeable about the topic as an individual too, for instance if it’s her field of expertise—for example, a man trying to explain how he thinks birth control works to a classroom full of female biology grads.

Or, what catgirl @ 85 said.

Comment #87: Bagelsan  on  01/10  at  11:38 PM

He’s been dead for three thousand years - leave him alone!

Ah c’mon, surely he’d still be up for some boning. smile

(Of course, the relevant parties seem to be adult women so Plato says, um, ew no.)

Comment #88: Bagelsan  on  01/10  at  11:45 PM

But let’s go with The Law of Recursive Mansplanation.

http://tinypic.com/r/xnygk0/7

I made it fast, so it’s not perfect, but I like it.

Comment #89: kristin  on  01/11  at  12:02 AM

On second thought, I like this one better:

http://tinypic.com/r/255t53a/7

Comment #90: kristin  on  01/11  at  12:09 AM

Gold has an inherent worth based on its scarcity and utility. I don’t know whether it’s currently over-valued compared to similar metals like platinum and iridium, but it’s always been valuable and almost certainly always will be. Which is not to say it’s preferable to fiat currency.

I was going to dig up a beautiful example* of mansplaining I read somewhere, but catgirl has nailed it already. (It had to do with a woman mentioning that she studied a particular field to a man who told her to read a new book on the subject, unaware that she had written it.)

Comment #91: bad Jim  on  01/11  at  12:18 AM

(It had to do with a woman mentioning that she studied a particular field to a man who told her to read a new book on the subject, unaware that she had written it.)

I was thinking of that story too! I don’t remember where I read it.

Comment #92: Bagelsan  on  01/11  at  12:21 AM

bad Jim:

The problem is that gold only ever held that position because its primary use was “shiny rock”. The technological advancements of the 20th century changed all that—gold now has significant actual uses (mostly in electronics and medicine) and is arguably no longer suited as a medium of exchange. In a way, returning to the gold standard would be almost identical to the old prison cliche of a cigarette economy—we’d be making our economy dependent on a consumable. That’s a very, VERY bad idea.

The math also fails miserably (making change for a 5g gold coin—worth somewhere in the vicinity of $225—would be nearly impossible), but pointing that out is just gravy.

Comment #93: BrianX  on  01/11  at  12:34 AM

Men Who Explain Things, by Rebecca Solnit:

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/13/opinion/op-solnit13

Comment #94: kristin  on  01/11  at  12:40 AM

Trying to figure out the historical value of a commodity can be pretty interesting, since the usual shopping basket approach runs into problems with technological change. What is an iPod worth in 1980, or a pound of tobacco in 1491? Brad DeLong has played with this subject. See How Rich Is Fitzwilliam Darcy?

Another writer (Jonathan Gash in the Lovejoy stories) valued antiques by how long the average person would have to work to earn enough to buy it. This approach has its own problems, of course; I only mention it because I’ve read every book in the series that I could find.

Comment #95: bad Jim  on  01/11  at  12:40 AM

I think an iPod in 1980 would be worth a small fortune, honestly… at least once Bell Labs made you an offer to study it…

Comment #96: BrianX  on  01/11  at  12:51 AM

Ms. Marcotte did not insist that the shooter was motivated by gender issues - she suggested the possibility.  I disagree with her in the specific case of Loughner based on the evidence so far. However, her larger point remains - a lot of the violent rhetoric is steeped in sexism and masculine anxiety.

I think there’s three reasons this is a particular problem for the United States compared to Europe:

1. High and growing inequality
2. Low social mobility
3. A weak safety net

So your typical middle or working class man in the United States sees the top men a long way above him and getting further away, finds it increasingly difficult to move up or even stay in place and sees an abyss yawning below him. That tends to make you anxious. In some cases the reaction is to emphasize masculine status and see feminism as a threat.

Of course, this applies to American women as well but the anxiety is less likely to embrace traditional gender status. And women for historical reasons are likely to start with lower expectations.

If you want a contrast, in the case of Sweden, making room for women at the middle or top has relatively low cost for the typical Swedish man. So he drops a rung or two on the socioeconomic ladder? So what - he’s got a net below, a firm grip on his rung and it’s not such a far way to the top.

Comment #97: infornific  on  01/11  at  01:02 AM

Gold has an inherent worth based on its scarcity and utility.

Is “scarcity” really a factor in “inherent worth”? ‘Cause lots of things are scarce and still worthless… /not an economist

Comment #98: Bagelsan  on  01/11  at  01:07 AM

I think an iPod in 1980 would be worth a small fortune, honestly… at least once Bell Labs made you an offer to study it…

Yeah, but you know you’re gonna end up getting hit on by your mom and rewriting the future, and it’s all just a big mess from there.

Comment #99: Bagelsan  on  01/11  at  01:11 AM

That’s right. Paper money—and the currency that the paper money represents (yen, dollars, pesos, etc.) has no external use in itself. That is a simple fact, why do you keep arguing about it?

That’s amazing, mine says “THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE”  Maybe it’s my having a reading comprehension above that of a first grader, but I find that I can use it for all debts I have both public and private.  That’s pretty useful.

Of course knowing that, I can also say that paper was more valuable and more inherently useful before the industrial revelation. 

You cannot measure the inherent value of anything. Value is what people are willing to give for something. which changes constantly. There are however inherent uses. Water has an inherent use, you can drink it. Bricks have an inherent use, you can build with them. Paper money (currency) has no inherent use, whereas gold does.
Comment #88: Celda

Managed to contradict yourself in the same paragraph.  You need to make up your mind, either “You cannot measure the inherent value of anything.” or “Paper money (currency) has no inherent use, whereas gold does.”

Which is it?  If something has inherent value it can be measured.  If not, it can’t.
It’s right there in the definition of the word “inherent.”

in·her·ent
–adjective
1. existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality, or attribute:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inherent

Comment #100: cynickal  on  01/11  at  01:42 AM

kristin #96:

Ugh. I have a tendency to do that. Then again, I have a tendency to do it to a lot of people because a lot of my interests are sort of esoteric… but that doesn’t make it right.

Comment #101: BrianX  on  01/11  at  01:43 AM

Thanks, kristin @ 96! I bookmarked that thing, finally—I’ve wanted to refer to it multiple times since I first read it.

BrianX, do you have the habit of saying anything like “I’m sure you know this already, but…” or “Stop me if you know this…” or “Oh, have you heard this before…?” at all? I’m a bit of a lecturer myself, but I often interject one of those into my rants. Especially if I’m talking to a peer or someone who I know has a reasonable education, then it’s pretty automatic. I’ll even flat out explicitly apologize if I feel I’m being patronizing; “sorry, I hope I’m not being patronizing… :p ?”

Just curious if you use any of those strategies.

Comment #102: Bagelsan  on  01/11  at  02:01 AM

I got the impression that the term “mansplaining” was introduced in the wake of the Solnit piece linked above. I vote for calling the law of recursive mansplanation “Solnit’s Law” on accounta how much mansplaining occurred in the comment threads of the Solnit piece whenever it was reprinted anywhere.

Comment #103: Josh  on  01/11  at  02:02 AM

Way back up there in comment #3, the duck-billed placelot said: “Gender will not make it onto the public radar for this horrible crime. Unless it comes out that Gifford was a feminist”

My blog (about misogyny) attracts a lot of angry antifeminist commenters. The first question one of them raised about the shooting was if Giffords was a feminist—because if she was (in his view) a feminist “man hater” he felt justified in not giving a shit about her.

I write about this and some other misogynist failures of empathy in the wake of the shooting here:

http://www.manboobz.com/2011/01/failure-of-empathy-misogynists-respond.html

Since writing it I’ve discovered a few even more appalling comments—attacking Daniel Hernandez for running towards the shooting and saving the life of a ... woman—which will go up in a post tomorrow.

Comment #104: manboobz  on  01/11  at  02:06 AM

That’s amazing, mine says “THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE” Maybe it’s my having a reading comprehension above that of a first grader, but I find that I can use it for all debts I have both public and private.  That’s pretty useful.

Wow! I’m seriously shocked that no one calls this kind of crap out.

So you seriously think that because paper money is legal tender, it has inherent use? Go tell that to the guys in Zimbabwe, ok?

As for the other part, notice I made a distinction between VALUE and USE. Value = how much other people are willing to give for something.

Use = what something can be used for.

So, gold is valuable because other people are willing to give stuff for it. It’s also useful because you can use it as jewelry and in other industries (medicine, electronics).

Currency (paper money and the dollar or yen or peso it represents) is valuable, but not useful because it has no use.

“If something has inherent value it can be measured.”

You can measure value (the stock market is about measuring value) but value changes from day to day. Use does not - (uncontaminated) water can be used for drinking, that was true yesterday, it will be true today, and that will be true 10 years from now.

Like WTF, this is basic stuff.

Comment #105: Celda  on  01/11  at  02:07 AM

That’s amazing, mine says “THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE” Maybe it’s my having a reading comprehension above that of a first grader, but I find that I can use it for all debts I have both public and private.  That’s pretty useful.

No, no, no - that only makes it useful in a SOCIAL context.  What Celda is saying that if he has gold, this is useful in itself, in that he can build an electronics factory from sticks and sand and use teh gold to manufacture ipods, loaded with songs he wrote himself, so he can listen to his own music while wandering around screaming “where did everyone go?”

I mean, Celda’s arguments make perfect sense if you first assume you’re the only person in existence.

Comment #106: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/11  at  02:35 AM

Bagelsan:

Not quite so coherently, but yeah. To a great extent it’s more poor socialization than anything else, but it’s still something that I catch myself doing and am not happy about it.

Comment #107: BrianX  on  01/11  at  03:12 AM

Celda:

That’s right. Paper money—and the currency that the paper money represents (yen, dollars, pesos, etc.) has no external use in itself. That is a simple fact, why do you keep arguing about it?

Gold, however, does have an external use in itself, even if it were not as a currency. That is another simple fact.

This is exactly why stupid people shouldn’t try to make analogies. Or any arguments at all, really.

The valid analogy that actually exists out here in the real world is “paper : money :: gold : money”. The obviously fallacious one you are arguing against — which, I should add, no one in this thread or elsewhere has attempted to make — is “paper money : money :: gold : money”.

The specific identity of the physical objects used to represent the social construct that is currency is NOT IMPORTANT. They’re just convenient representations of the socially constructed idea of value. Whether or not said physical objects have a use other than the representation of currency is completely irrelevant to their use as currency. This is even more true in an age when most of our money is represented in non-physical ways. Or to use, for simplicity’s sake, an object that is significantly less wrapped up in whackadoodle ideological bullshit, the fact that you can use a pencil as a murder weapon, a drink stirrer, or a prop for a wobbly table does not in any way impact, mitigate, or minimize its far more common use as a writing instrument, and vice versa.

So you seriously think that because paper money is legal tender, it has inherent use?

Nothing has an inherent use. Literally nothing. Things have uses because we generally agree that they do, and follow through on that agreement on at least a somewhat consistent basis (e.g., “this note is legal tender for all debts public and private”).

Like WTF, this is basic stuff.

It’s not actually a “gotcha” argument when you’re the one who doesn’t know what the fuck they’re talking about, nevermind your rather obvious conceptual problems with constructing a valid argument. We’ve already seen that within the space of a single paragraph, you’ve claimed both that inherent value cannot be measured and that gold has inherent value, apparently completely unaware that axiomatically, those two statements cannot simultaneously be true, no matter how much time Robocop has been riding that unicorn.

Comment #108: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  01/11  at  03:34 AM

This is pretty far off topic, but I seem to be unable to resist responding to this bit of nonsense from shargash @58:

The idea that silver & gold are the only constitutional money comes straight from the constitution, Article I, Section 10

Article I, Section 10 says that no State can make anything but gold and silver legal tender. In other words, there can’t be any paper currencies issued by individual states. And there is absolutely no way to read that as referring to the federal government instead of the states, because it’s part of a list of other things states can’t do, at least two of which the Constitution explicitly empowers the federal government to do: entering into treaties and issuing letters of marque and reprisal. The next two paragraphs go on to describe things states cannot do without the consent of Congress.

Only an idiot could read Article I, Section 10 and think it meant United States currency had to be gold or silver. Of course, many idiots do just that—specifically, the Patriot/militia groups that the SPLC is talking about. That argument is not taken seriously by any other political movement. Shargash is blowing smoke.

Comment #109: Hob  on  01/11  at  03:47 AM

This is exactly why stupid people shouldn’t try to make analogies. Or any arguments at all, really.

Actually, you’re the one that’s stupid, as I will explain.

Amanda claims that having currency (dollars, yens, pesos) represent money is equivalent to having gold represent money. I explained the two are not equivalent, chiefly because money can be reproduced at will thus leading to worthlessness (for example, Germany in the 1920s and Zimbabwe more recently) whereas gold is immune to such problems.

Obviously, that’s a pretty big difference, which no one here has admitted (because they cannot refute it).

The specific identity of the physical objects used to represent the social construct that is currency is NOT IMPORTANT. They’re just convenient representations of the socially constructed idea of value.

Yes, that’s true. However, as I have been saying, currency (dollars, yen, rupees, etc.) run a risk of becoming valueless, and history shows us examples of that happening. Gold does not have that risk.

Nothing has an inherent use. Literally nothing. Things have uses because we generally agree that they do, and follow through on that agreement on at least a somewhat consistent basis (e.g., “this note is legal tender for all debts public and private”).

Either you are quite stupid, or you do not know the definition of “use”. At the most basic level, water has an inherent use not because of any “agreement”, but because it can keep you alive by hydrating you. Plants have an inherent use not because of “agreement” but because it can keep you alive by nourishment. Etc.

We’ve already seen that within the space of a single paragraph, you’ve claimed both that inherent value cannot be measured and that gold has inherent value,

Now this is just inexcusable. As I said not once, but TWICE, I said inherent value cannot be measured and that gold has inherent USE. There is a difference between “value” and “use”. Value is socially constructed; it’s what people are willing to give for something. Use is not socially constructed, it is inherent. Even if you were a society of one and there were no other people, water would still have inherent use since you need it to keep you alive.

Comment #110: Celda  on  01/11  at  04:33 AM

but it’s still something that I catch myself doing and am not happy about it.

Well, that’s worth a good half-a-cookie right there! (Teasing! It actually is, imho, a solid start.)

On the flip side, I’m also often a little too reticent to point out that I do know something; like the guy who carefully explained confocal microscopy to me for 5 minutes, who I couldn’t quiiite bring myself to tell “yeah, like that class I had on it, and like the techniques I’ve been using for my own work?” Poor socialization, maybe, or more likely I’ve been socialized exactly like I’m supposed to be and it serves me poorly. :p

Of course, I just spent a good 10 minutes lecturing one of my male friends about the Giffords situation, so I’m perfectly capable of going off about stuff. <strike>Though I was extremely delicate about it, and tempered my opinions very politely… damn you, girl manners!</strike>

Comment #111: Bagelsan  on  01/11  at  04:46 AM

Yes, that’s true. However, as I have been saying, currency (dollars, yen, rupees, etc.) run a risk of becoming valueless, and history shows us examples of that happening. Gold does not have that risk.

FSM knows I shouldn’t touch this discussion with a ten-foot tentacle but… haven’t plenty of cultures found little or no value in gold? I can certainly imagine cultures/societies in which gold would be totally worthless.

Comment #112: Bagelsan  on  01/11  at  04:49 AM

Bagelsan, 101, Is “scarcity” really a factor in “inherent worth”?

One factor, yeah; that’s why I tossed in “utility” as a weasel word. A silly story from the reign of Napoleon III: special guests got aluminum plates, the average nobility had to settle for gold. This was before cheap electricity. Aluminum is a pretty common element, and it has some really neat properties, but it wasn’t generally available in metallic form until the twentieth century.

Aluminum, once insanely valuable, is now quite cheap. Gold remains expensive. But, what? I have two chunks of grayish metallic form. One is a fragment of a meteorite that struck Argentina (Campo del Cielo), a weighty handful, the other a chunk of silicon, quite light. It’s entertaining to put both into the hands of an unsuspecting observer (WTF!) and to think that that silicon, an element so common as to be negligible (SAND!) is one of the pillars of the worldwide economy.

Information is actually the most valuable commodity we’ve got. It has a short shelf life; it’s not a store of value, it can’t serve as currency, but the inventiveness of the Enlightenment was of far greater value to the world than Spain’s addition of Mexico’s gold to Europe’s economy.

Comment #113: bad Jim  on  01/11  at  04:52 AM

Yes, that’s true. However, as I have been saying, currency (dollars, yen, rupees, etc.) run a risk of becoming valueless, and history shows us examples of that happening. Gold does not have that risk.

My mother recently gave me a 20-pound note when I was going to the UK with no money for the bus. Turned out it was an old note, no longer accepted by anything or anyone. So that’s 20 pounds down the drain…

So, gold is valuable because other people are willing to give stuff for it. It’s also useful because you can use it as jewelry and in other industries (medicine, electronics).

But correct me if I’m wrong, gold’s usefulness as an object has nothing to do with its usefulness as a currency; if anything they would be antithetical. When you look at trade through history you see barter systems where people exchange useful things such as food, animals, weapons, tools… But once you get currencies, what are they ? Seashells. Metals like gold and silver, which while useful for luxuries like jewelry aren’t nearly as useful as iron or copper. And not only that, but soon people start making those metals less useful by pressing them into standardized coins so that you can use them for currency, or use them for other purposes, but not both.

It seems that the criteria to make good currencies is that the object must be rare, long-lasting, and not very useful at all.

That doesn’t mean gold wouldn’t be a good thing to invest in in case of a wordwide collapse in the economy. I’ve heard that gold works especially well as a currency and that this is why it was used as such historically; in that case it might be reasonable to assume that the economy might collapse to a point where gold becomes the best currency again hence one should get some. But right now it’s just another commodity, so the question is how much the economy will collapse : if just one currency does you might as well keep a basket of different currencies; if the whole thing goes post-apocalyptic canned food and guns might be a better bet. I don’t know what level would make gold a good choice, but if we’re assuming we know how much the economy is going to collapse we also know what will be the most valuable commodity when it does so we might as well invest in that, instead of something we hope will be used as currency.

Comment #114: Caravelle  on  01/11  at  06:46 AM

I don’t know what level would make gold a good choice, but if we’re assuming we know how much the economy is going to collapse we also know what will be the most valuable commodity when it does so we might as well invest in that, instead of something we hope will be used as currency.

My grandfather swore it would be copper, which is how my father “inherited” a dozen buckets of old copper pennies. Go figure. (If our civilization collapses really at all my skill set is pretty useless, so I’ll just resign myself to being pretty literally screwed* in any case, gold standard or otherwise. smile)

*uteri = the most reliable “currency” ever?

Comment #115: Bagelsan  on  01/11  at  07:02 AM

My grandfather swore it would be copper, which is how my father “inherited” a dozen buckets of old copper pennies. Go figure.

Well, if they were from between 1970 and 1982 that was a better use for them than spending them, according to Wikipedia. Do they feel different from modern pennies ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_(United_States_coin)

Comment #116: Caravelle  on  01/11  at  07:35 AM

I believe they actually are all old enough to be mostly copper—almost any penny minted before 1982, according to your link, I suppose?—but I only halfheartedly spot-checked the ages as a kid. My grandfather was correct to that extent, but what a very engineer sort of gift! smile

Comment #117: Bagelsan  on  01/11  at  07:49 AM

I believe they actually are all old enough to be mostly copper—almost any penny minted before 1982, according to your link, I suppose?—but I only halfheartedly spot-checked the ages as a kid.
If they come from your grandfather, yeah they’ll be mostly copper. But you’ll admit there’s a difference in the coolness factor of bronze (before 1942) versus brass (after 194something).

I started reading about currencies while looking for the composition of 1-yen coins, which are so flimsy I half expected it to be plastic. They’re aluminium as it turns out. Well, at least it’s a metal…

Comment #118: Caravelle  on  01/11  at  08:18 AM

@Celda, I think that maybe you don’t understand that gold as a currency is still useful only in the way that paper or digital money is useful, in that you still have to agree, as a nation how much gold a day’s labour is worth for example.

Come total economic collapse, gold is going to be less useful than paper money, because you can burn that, if you are worried about that sort of thing, the best thing to invest in is yourself, get so pratical skills so that you can make yourself useful, learn how to grow things and fix things.

Comment #119: Leah Jaclyn  on  01/11  at  09:00 AM

“A little OT, I know, but this brings to mind More’s Utopia, in which the citizens of Utopia demonstrate how little they value gold by using it to make chamber pots and chains for slaves and criminals”
Wouldn’t gold make a pretty poor restraint? iirc, it’s soft as hell (relatively speaking)...

Comment #120: Devonian  on  01/11  at  09:35 AM

libdevil

“Yeah, I can see some of those contexts.  ... “Mom, why does ‘Mom’ mean ‘Mom’?  Who decided that?” A good faith question from a 9-year-old.”

LOL.  The question does kinda make me want to hand the asker a copy of Frindle.

But then, someone who is immature enough - in terms of socialization AND self-awareness AND empathy - to ask such a question most likely would find the ideas in Frindle to be deeply profound.

You can see it too, when they share the revelations.  “OMG guise!  Why does “pen” mean “pen?”  If we called it “frindle” it would smell just as sweet!”  And of course everyone is like “yeah, we read the book too.  A decade or so ago.”  And they see that as proof that you do not understand what they are saying bc of course if you did you would remark on how brilliant they are.

Celda

(well, really it’s for everyone else, but it’s in response to a comment by Celda)

“Gold has remained valuable over many centuries, because it is impossible to reproduce.”

But, but, but…alchemy!  :p

All kidding aside, gold is very much NOT impossible to reproduce.  Not nowadays.  It’s just so very much not worth the effort.

*ponders what we must now use in place of gold and silver*

Also, anytime people talk about certain minerals that are dug up from the earth having intrinsic value because of their rarity, I think of diamonds and other gems, and the all the money exchanged to make it difficult to sell man made gems for non-scientific/industrial purposes and to convince people to keep buying the “real” kind.  Whose mining and sale tends to result in slavery and loss of human life.

No thanks.  I’ll keep my ones and zeroes, if you please.

Hob

“Article I, Section 10 says that no State can make anything but gold and silver legal tender. In other words, there can’t be any paper currencies issued by individual states.”

Are you kidding me?  THIS is where they get it from? I thought it was just the whole “gold will always be rare! we still live in the 19th/20th c!  what will you use when the world ends!”  (re the last: eggs will be worth more than gold, I can tell you that much.  assuming the zombies don’t eat you first.)

I would ask if they had ever heard of the Articles of Confederation and WHY our forefathers decided to stage a mini-coup and rewrite our government, but, well, that would be pointless, yes?  Because anyone that can read that part of the constitution and come to that conclusion in the first place….

Comment #121: jennygadget  on  01/11  at  09:37 AM

Inflation aside, Celda, do you at least agree that there are other serious problems with a gold standard?  It basically places a hard limit on economic growth.

Comment #122: mamram  on  01/11  at  09:41 AM

“It basically places a hard limit on economic growth.”

Most gold-bugs and other conservative/libertarian types believe economics is a zero-sum game.  What you get is taken from me, and vis versa.  So a hard limit on the economy just reinforces what they already believe.

OTOH, in the real world, I don’t believe there are any economies that are entirely based on some physical element (I’m sure somebody will come up with one, but that doesn’t invalidate my point).  If there was some inherent superiority in a gold-based, silver-based, platinum-based, etc., economy, wouldn’t some country do so and kick all our (paper/plastic/symbolic-based) asses economically?

When the US was still based on the “gold standard”, we didn’t have close to enough gold to cover all the money we had in circulation.  I’m pretty sure there isn’t enough gold on the planet to cover the US dollars in current circulation, let alone the value of all the currency of all types.

Considering how badly the economies of the whole world would collapse if suddenly no one accepted anything but “hard currency”, I think it’s pretty clear that gold wouldn’t help you.  As stated above, guns would be useful and therefore valuable.  I’d add heirloom seeds (non-hybrids that reproduce true, but not from some Beck-advocated ripoff company), a knowledge of farming, wood-working, metal-working, weaving, farm animals (cows, horses, sheep, goats, chickens), dogs and cats, and other practical knowledge and goods.  Gold would have to rank pretty far down the list, at least after people were hungry and cold.

BTW, interesting article on gold standards in Wikipedia…

And a good glimpse into post apocalyptic America is The Road.  Depressing as hell, but it seemed very realistic…

Comment #123: MikeEss  on  01/11  at  11:03 AM

Wouldn’t gold make a pretty poor restraint?

You’d think, but they keep making wedding rings outta the stuff anyways…

/cynical!

Comment #124: Bagelsan  on  01/11  at  11:37 AM

My dad was/is a numismatist.  That means coin collector, but professional.  He had gold bars that were their weight in whatever gold was worth during any particular time.  He had gold coins that were worth far more than the gold bars of equivalent weight.  Clearly the value of gold doesn’t just come from its identity as gold.  Those gold coins were more valuable than the gold they were made of, simply because of all the things they could be exchanged for.

The only reason gold is valuable is because society agrees that it’s valuable.  Some societies have used seashells or giant rocks.  Those things would be pretty worthless to us, just as gold would be worthless to them.  Money is valuable because of the agreement that it can be exchanged for other things, not because of some inherent quality.  I know that this is really hard for Libertarians to accept because they like to pretend that society doesn’t exist and everyone can and should act completely independently, but that’s not how reality works.  Instead of each person in the society signing a contract that money is worth something, whether it’s gold, paper, or electronic, we have a social understanding that it’s valuable, which is backed by our government.  When you try so desperately hard to deny that society matters, it’s amazing what ridiculous arguments people can come up with for the gold standard.

Comment #125: bananacat  on  01/11  at  11:54 AM

Paper currency still will have worth in post apocalyptic America.  You can trade a stack of bills for about ten caps.

Comment #126: Toitle  on  01/11  at  11:55 AM

Wait, Celda, your argument that paper is inherently less useful than gold makes it sound like the discussion is about paper bills vs. gold coinage—unless there is some paper-backed currency somewhere that I don’t know of.  Presumably we’re talking about backed vs. unbacked currencies, and the inherent usefulness of gold or paper is kind of irrelevant. 

Even though, as has been mentioned, there are plenty of cool things that you can do with paper money other than buy things with it.

Comment #127: mamram  on  01/11  at  12:02 PM

I would also like to point out that if there’s nothing available to buy, gold loses most of it’s value just like paper does.  We essentially have a “production standard”, where the value of money is based on what is being produced.  Gold is as useless as paper in a post-apocalyptic world where there’s simply no furniture, Big Macs, clothes, or electronics to buy.  You could barter with neighbors for their occasional excess of certain farmed products, but in that case bartering with actual products seems more useful than either gold or paper.

It sounds like someone here heard that good Libertarians like the gold standard, and s/he’s sticking with it no matter what, just for loyalty.

Comment #128: bananacat  on  01/11  at  12:06 PM

Wow….so if someone said “the esophagus is responsible for circulation of the blood” and I said that that is false, the esophagus is for food to enter the digestive system, that would be a “grand medical proof” according to you?

No, that would be a minor medical proof, because it can be proven to even the most thick-headed individuals. The gold vs. paper money debate, on the other hand, has been a grand point of economic debate for over a century. If there weren’t so many thick-headed individuals, it might be more of a minor economic proof.

I mean, look at this:

What does this have to do with the fact that gold is impossible to create (there’s a finite amount of gold in the world, no one can create more of it), while paper money (currency) can, and has in the past, be printed at will (making it worthless)?

If that’s how you formulate it, something like this must seem like an extreme paradox. The lovely item you see is a 33-gram 90% gold coin. It also functioned as $20 worth of currency, put into general circulation by the U.S. government, which decided how many to mint.

All you’ve demonstrated in this thread is that you don’t understand and, worse, profoundly misunderstand what you’re putting your money into. Which is the antithesis of smart investing. But what you’ve also made clear here is that “smart” doesn’t enter into the equation for you, and I don’t enter into extended debates with fools.

Addressing the non-fools, I will say I know a few people who invest in gold. Most do it as part of a hedging strategy, a couple speculate. What they have in common, and why I take them seriously, is that every one of them views gold as a commodity. They don’t invest in coins, they invest in bullion.

People like Celda, on the other hand, view investing in gold not as a commodities play, but as a bizarre one-way Forex trade. They’re basically trading (at an almost usurious premium) USD for what might be called gold Apoco-Nucks. Beck and the other grifters tell these frightened fools that the US Dollar will collapse along with the Republic real soon now thanks to Blackazoid’s Soshalist programme, and that when that day comes they’ll come out on top in the new feudal order thanks to the bag of gold coins they’ve secreted under the hearth.

Comment #129: Gracchus.  on  01/11  at  12:49 PM

Gold is as useless as paper in a post-apocalyptic world where there’s simply no furniture, Big Macs, clothes, or electronics to buy.

Even more useless for the sort of idiot who buys into this scam, because it wouldn’t be long before some clever thug with a powerful firearm paid a visit to the McManor House and relieved His Lordship of that bag of gold Apoco-Bucks, along with the guns he stockpiled to protect it and any other items of value.

Comment #130: Gracchus.  on  01/11  at  12:54 PM

I would also like to point out that if there’s nothing available to buy, gold loses most of it’s value just like paper does.

Isn’t there even a saying about that? “You can’t eat gold”?

Doesn’t every single apocalyptic story feature some dumbass who loses his (it’s always a he) life in some gruesome way trying to get a fat bag of greenbacks or a pile of gold or diamonds or some shit, while the main characters tell him not to be a fool, it won’t do him any good?

IOW, doesn’t everyone but absolute dumbasses already grasp that gold is not inherently valuable? The mind, she boggles.

Comment #131: kristin  on  01/11  at  03:04 PM

Paper currency still will have worth in post apocalyptic America.  You can trade a stack of bills for about ten caps.

Yeah, but ammunition of all types and drugs are just as weightless, and way cooler to collect.  I prefer Jet in nostalgia of all those good times spent in the company of Myron.

Comment #132: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/11  at  04:10 PM

The term “mansplaining” is, imho, mostly relevant when a man is trying to explain something to a woman that she is already uniquely knowledgeable about (particularly due to her gender) with an extra dollop of irony because he likely sees her as uniquely incapable of already understanding the situation (due to her gender.)

After I was called a mansplainer in these threads, I went and looked up the term, and yes, this is what it means.

My objection is that I think a lot of people throw it around when the second part of it (i.e., the condescension) is absent. Not every male talking about a gender-related issue is mansplaining, even if whatever he has to say is actually wrong or clueless. It’s supposed to be reserved for men who are actually condescending with women, not simply disagreeing with them.

Comment #133: Dilan Esper  on  01/11  at  04:42 PM

@Celda, I think that maybe you don’t understand that gold as a currency is still useful only in the way that paper or digital money is useful, in that you still have to agree, as a nation how much gold a day’s labour is worth for example.

That’s true. But as I have been saying, what does that have to do with the two key facts: 1. Currency runs a risk of becoming valueless, and there have been examples of that happening through history. That has not happened to gold. 2. Gold has inherent use in some fields, whereas a dollar or a rupee has no inherent use.

Granted, come total apocalypse, gold would become mostly valueless. However, the same would apply to dollars or pesos. Barring total apocalypse, currencies can become valueless whereas gold cannot.

All kidding aside, gold is very much NOT impossible to reproduce.  Not nowadays.  It’s just so very much not worth the effort.

True enough. In practical terms however, gold is not possible to reproduce. The same is not true for currency, governments can make more dollars at will.

Inflation aside, Celda, do you at least agree that there are other serious problems with a gold standard?  It basically places a hard limit on economic growth.

It would be ludicrous to move to a gold standard. I don’t believe that nor have I ever suggested it. All have I been saying is that Amanda was wrong, and apparently any criticism of the party line leads to attacks regardless whether it was true or not.

Wait, Celda, your argument that paper is inherently less useful than gold makes it sound like the discussion is about paper bills vs. gold coinage—unless there is some paper-backed currency somewhere that I don’t know of.  Presumably we’re talking about backed vs. unbacked currencies, and the inherent usefulness of gold or paper is kind of irrelevant.

No, I’m saying that currency (the currency that a piece of paper represents) is inherently useless, whereas gold has inherent use. That is a fact.

The gold vs. paper money debate, on the other hand, has been a grand point of economic debate for over a century.

True. And if I were arguing that we should move to a gold standard then that would indeed be a grand economic proof. I am not. I simply pointed out basic facts about currency and gold that should be obvious to even the most thick-headed individuals. Unfortunately, they are not since you are not smart enough to understand.

If that’s how you formulate it, something like this must seem like an extreme paradox. The lovely item you see is a 33-gram 90% gold coin. It also functioned as $20 worth of currency, put into general circulation by the U.S. government, which decided how many to mint.

That’s irrelevant to my argument. I have said that gold is impossible to reproduce since you can’t just crank up a printer and create any amount of it at will. That’s an undeniable fact. However, history has shown us that for currencies, that has happened many times. That’s another undeniable fact.

What we can conclude from this, is that currency has a higher chance of becoming valueless than gold does.

People like Celda, on the other hand, view investing in gold not as a commodities play, but as a bizarre one-way Forex trade. They’re basically trading (at an almost usurious premium) USD for what might be called gold Apoco-Nucks.

I haven’t bought any gold, nor do I intend to. Because I don’t believe that the Canadian economy will crash.

Man, why do you keep denying the most basic of facts?

IOW, doesn’t everyone but absolute dumbasses already grasp that gold is not inherently valuable? The mind, she boggles.

Nothing is inherently valuable, if you define value as how much others are willing to give for it.

In some situations, water is very valuable. If you live next to a clean river, it won’t be since anyone can just go drink at will.

Comment #134: Celda  on  01/11  at  04:57 PM

I think a lot of people throw it around when the second part of it (i.e., the condescension) is absent.

Just because you don’t realize you’re being condescending doesn’t mean the condescension is absent. In fact the nature of mansplaining seems to me like it depends in fairly large part on men being socialized out of any glimmer of awareness that they are being pompous pricks: due to their penises no one has disabused them of the notion that they really are all that.

Comment #135: kristin  on  01/11  at  05:27 PM

And the Law of Recursive Mansplanation strikes again, right in this very thread!  Dilan Esper is here to save the day and mansplain to all of us just how we are using the term “mansplain” wrong.

Comment #136: bananacat  on  01/11  at  05:52 PM

No, I’m saying that currency (the currency that a piece of paper represents) is inherently useless, whereas gold has inherent use. That is a fact.

Looks like you still don’t understand that currency isn’t limited to paper banknotes. Currency is an agreed-upon medium of exchange.

Besides, I thought that you were simply discussing gold as a substance vs. paper as a substance. Although that’s irrelevant to Amanda’s original point:

demanding things like the gold standard, without taking the time to realize that gold only has value for exactly the same reason paper money only has value, which is that people say so.

It’s clear to anyone without your severe reading comprehension difficulties that she was referring to gold and paper as currency rather than substances. I’m guessing that Amanda is already aware that a pound of paper is worth substantially less a pound of gold.

Comment #137: Gracchus.  on  01/11  at  05:52 PM

Looks like you still don’t understand that currency isn’t limited to paper banknotes. Currency is an agreed-upon medium of exchange.

Besides, I thought that you were simply discussing gold as a substance vs. paper as a substance. Although that’s irrelevant to Amanda’s original point:

Um, I already said that currency (i.e. dollars or euros) is not limited to paper notes. A dollar in a bank account is equivalent a dollar as a bill.

And no, I was discussing gold versus man-made currencies like the dollar or euro. Amanda says that a currency like a dollar is only valuable because people say it is. That’s true. Then she says that gold is only valuable because people say it is. That’s false. Even if people agreed that they would not give anything for gold, and that it would not be used as currency, it would still be valuable because it has use and it is rare. A dollar or euro has no use if people agreed they would not give anything for it.

I pointed that falsehood out, and then many other people, including yourself, tried to argue about it.

Comment #138: Celda  on  01/11  at  06:28 PM

Dilan Esper is here to save the day and mansplain to all of us just how we are using the term “mansplain” wrong.

Sigh.  The merry-go-round goes round and round…

Then she says that gold is only valuable because people say it is. That’s false.

No, it isn’t.  The “uses” of gold are also only valuable because people agree that they are.

Comment #139: liberalrob  on  01/11  at  07:34 PM

Celda :

manda says that a currency like a dollar is only valuable because people say it is. That’s true. Then she says that gold is only valuable because people say it is. That’s false.

But… no. Either both are true or both are false, or more accurately both are true AND both are false. An object can have value as a currency or as a commodity (not the only kinds : there’s also sentimental value for example). Those two values are distinct, this is why a penny is worth 1 cent even though the metals that compose it are worth something like 0.6 cents.

The value something has as a currency only exists because people say it does; this is true for both paper money and for gold. If you look at its value as a commodity however, then a dollar bill does too have a value. It’s not a high value given how common paper is, but the difference in value between it and gold is one of degree not of kind.

There is an argument to be made why you would invest in gold in case of downturns but it has nothing to do with gold’s value as a commodity (if the economy got that bad the demand for electronics and jewelry would crash anyway), the issue is the stability of its value. If I buy 100 dollars’ worth of paper, 100 dollars’ worth of gold, or 100 dollars’ worth of cocaine I have 100 dollars whatever the value of the commodity. The interesting things are how much space it takes up and what happens to the value of paper, gold or cocaine when the economy crashes. I’ve heard that the value of gold is remarkably stable but I have no idea if it’s true or not, do you have a cite ?

Comment #140: Caravelle  on  01/11  at  08:16 PM

Just because you don’t realize you’re being condescending doesn’t mean the condescension is absent. In fact the nature of mansplaining seems to me like it depends in fairly large part on men being socialized out of any glimmer of awareness that they are being pompous pricks: due to their penises no one has disabused them of the notion that they really are all that.

This isn’t wrong at all, but the other side of it is just because a man is wrong about an issue he is discussing with a woman, even an issue relating to gender, doesn’t mean that he’s being condescending.

Is it possible that some women are so used to the condescension and that it is so common that they sometimes perceive it even in situations where the man is actually listening to what she says and not implicitly asserting gender privilege?

Comment #141: Dilan Esper  on  01/11  at  09:02 PM

And the Law of Recursive Mansplanation strikes again, right in this very thread!  Dilan Esper is here to save the day and mansplain to all of us just how we are using the term “mansplain” wrong.

And this is the problem, right here.

I defy ANYONE to show where I condescended. I made an argument. I stated my opinion. I listened to others. I didn’t say or imply that I am God’s gift to gender relations or that I have some special knowledge of this subject or that the opinions of women based on their experiences should be dismissed.

I simply disagreed. Partially, while conceding that some of the people who disagree with me have a valid point. And to some posters, that’s “mansplaining”.

This is exactly what I am talking about. If the word is going to mean something USEFUL, it can’t simply be deployed to describe any situation where a male gives an opinion about a gender issue that some women disagree with, no matter how carefully and un-arrogantly and un-condescendingly the opinion is presented. If that’s what the word means, it’s just snark, not a serious concept. And I don’t think the people who coined it intended it to be pure snark—I think they were trying to describe a real phenomenon where men barge into a conversation on a topic they don’t understand nearly as well as they think they do and proceed to ignore the perspectives and lived experiences of women.

Comment #142: Dilan Esper  on  01/11  at  09:07 PM

It’s supposed to be reserved for men who are actually condescending with women, not simply disagreeing with them.

I’m convinced that most people on here understand the basic definition, so the disagreement over your comments being labeled as “mansplaining” is not about the term but about whether or not you were actually being condescending. But assuming that the people you disagree with about your behavior just don’t understand the term, and then defining it for them (despite it having been defined already several times) ... actually starts getting a bit condescending and ‘splainy. Even if your original comments may not have been. Curses! :p

In my opinion you can flat-out disagree about whether you were being condescending without it being mansplainy (you might be wrong, whatevs, but I wouldn’t consider it splainy.) But you start straying away from innocent disagreement when you begin trying to dictate how people (including people who helped invent the thing!) should use it, or trying to correct women’s already-correct usage of it (yes, of course they know the requirements that should be met for mansplaining; they just decided—unlike yourself—that you met those requirements! It is a subjective judgment but it’s not an uninformed one as your quoted comment implies.)

Comment #143: Bagelsan  on  01/11  at  10:08 PM

To be clear, I’m being pretty precise and picky about your language—that’s because I think mansplaining can be a bit subtle (at least, for men to see…) and you seem interested in a precise definition/discussion of the phenomenon.*

*and I would apparently rather do anything than read this stupid textbook…

Comment #144: Bagelsan  on  01/11  at  10:13 PM

In my opinion you can flat-out disagree about whether you were being condescending without it being mansplainy (you might be wrong, whatevs, but I wouldn’t consider it splainy.) But you start straying away from innocent disagreement when you begin trying to dictate how people (including people who helped invent the thing!) should use it, or trying to correct women’s already-correct usage of it (yes, of course they know the requirements that should be met for mansplaining; they just decided—unlike yourself—that you met those requirements!

This is circular, though. If you get accused of “mansplaining” by “people who helped invent the thing” (and by the way, this is an aside, but I’m not sure this is true—it looks like the term was inspired by an LA Times essay by a feminist author and was invented by a feminist blogger and her commenters on another blog), and you deny it, you are therefore implicitly condescending to them and therefore guilty as charged!

Again, I’m not telling you how to use the term. You can use the term however you want. If it’s just going to be snark directed at male commenters who say things that are wrong, fine. I basically assume that part of the price of my admission to ANY feminist conversations is that these conversations are really a means for women to share their experiences about a sexist and patriarchal world and I don’t live those experiences and owe those who do a fair amount of deference.

But if that’s all the term is, then people should be straightforward about it, and admit that it is fun snark and isn’t doing any theoretical work. And if you go back and look at what the people who ACTUALLY invented the term were talking about, they actually WERE doing some theoretical work with the term. Which would indicate that there has to be a way for a man who actually is NOT “mansplaining” in the theoretical sense of the term to deny the charge without being guilty of “mansplaining” in the denial.

In other words, I neither have any authority or any interest in telling any of you how to use the term. But I do have a legitimate interest in not being falsely accused of condescension. So IF that’s what the term is going to mean, then I should be able to apply the definition and point out that my comments don’t fit within it.

Comment #145: Dilan Esper  on  01/11  at  10:33 PM

Again, I’m not telling you how to use the term. You can use the term however you want. If it’s just going to be snark directed at male commenters who say things that are wrong, fine. I basically assume that part of the price of my admission to ANY feminist conversations is that these conversations are really a means for women to share their experiences about a sexist and patriarchal world and I don’t live those experiences and owe those who do a fair amount of deference.

There, that is where you have definately gone over into mansplaining rather than just explaining yourself.  Most of the spots you are initially accused of mansplaining seem to usually just be you poorly expressing an opinion, IMO, but then you go on and usually proceed to end up doing it outright in an obvious way.

Comment #146: helen w. h.  on  01/12  at  12:08 AM

Yeah, it’s usually just pompous asshattery, but then it drifts over into mansplaining at a certain point.

Comment #147: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/12  at  12:22 AM

Is it possible that some women are so used to the condescension and that it is so common that they sometimes perceive it even in situations where the man is actually listening to what she says and not implicitly asserting gender privilege?

That’s not condescending AT ALL. Nope, you just have better perspective on this stuff than all of us silly ladies. We should all remember to stop and check in with you to see if maybe we’re imagining things before we run off trusting our wee little woman-brains—always remembering that if we disagree with you, it’s because we haven’t fully understood your position, and therefore more excruciatingly careful and lengthy explanation from you is called for.

Comment #148: kristin  on  01/12  at  01:43 AM

Celda:

Amanda claims that having currency (dollars, yens, pesos) represent money is equivalent to having gold represent money.

Any object used to represent money is axiomatically equivalent to an equally valued amount of any other object used to represent money. The agreement upon value is what’s important, not the medium that represents that value. This is why we as a species are even able to use so many different media to represent value in the first place. Everything else is just socially constructed details.

There is no economic difference, when attempting to purchase X goods, between offering Y dollars or Z chickens, assuming that both buyer and seller agree that X, Y, and Z are all of equivalent value. Substitute whatever you like for “goods,” “dollars,” and “chickens.”

There is no such thing as “inherent value,” because there is no absolute standard by which to measure it. All value is negotiated as part of a social compact.

At the most basic level, water has an inherent use not because of any “agreement”, but because it can keep you alive by hydrating you. Plants have an inherent use not because of “agreement” but because it can keep you alive by nourishment.

Those uses emerge as a result of the combination of my biological processes with the direct physical ingestion of water and plants. They are not inherent to the water and plants themselves, nor are they inherent to either my biological processes or to my ingestion of said water and plants. Without a “you” around, the statement “water can keep you alive” is completely meaningless.

There is no such thing as “inherent use,” because the whole concept of “use” itself is untenable without making reference to a relationship between the object being used and the entity using it. All uses are emergent from that relationship.

Comment #149: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  01/12  at  01:48 AM

“That’s not condescending AT ALL. Nope, you just have better perspective on this stuff than all of us silly ladies. We should all remember to stop and check in with you to see if maybe we’re imagining things before we run off trusting our wee little woman-brains—always remembering that if we disagree with you, it’s because we haven’t fully understood your position, and therefore more excruciatingly careful and lengthy explanation from you is called for.” - comment #150: kristin

Yes, what Kristin said in reference to Dilweed.  So, maybe you’d better mansplain it all again for us, Dilweed. Maybe one more time will be the charm.

To assume readers/commenters hadn’t long ago figured out what he considers apparently revelatory material, when it comes to mansplaining or any other subject, is just offensive, and stupid as well, plus boring.

Comment #150: News Nag  on  01/12  at  02:31 AM

Any object used to represent money is axiomatically equivalent to an equally valued amount of any other object used to represent money.

Yes, that’s correct. I never said otherwise.

What I have said is that currencies like the dollar or euro have a risk of becoming valueless, and history shows us examples of that. Gold does not have that risk.

What does your statement have to do with those facts?

There is no such thing as “inherent value,” because there is no absolute standard by which to measure it.

Did you miss the part where I said that there was no such thing as inherent value? Value is what other people are willing to give for something, so anything could become valueless depending on the situation. I said that multiple times.

There is no such thing as “inherent use,” because the whole concept of “use” itself is untenable without making reference to a relationship between the object being used and the entity using it. All uses are emergent from that relationship.

Ok, then let’s change that to “Water has an inherent use for humans.” That’s a fact, I really hope no one is stupid enough to argue about that.

I assumed that the modifier (for humans) was implied and understood, apparently not everyone is smart enough to understand.

Now, FOR HUMANS, gold has inherent use. You can make things with it, it’s used in some industries. In contrast, a dollar or a euro has no inherent use for humans.

Comment #151: Celda  on  01/12  at  03:01 AM

That’s not condescending AT ALL. Nope, you just have better perspective on this stuff than all of us silly ladies. We should all remember to stop and check in with you to see if maybe we’re imagining things before we run off trusting our wee little woman-brains—always remembering that if we disagree with you, it’s because we haven’t fully understood your position, and therefore more excruciatingly careful and lengthy explanation from you is called for.

This is all just circular, but apparently explaining why it is circular puts you inside the circle.

Seriously, this is defamation. You all have the right to be defamatory—again, basically I consider myself a guest here and don’t think it’s my job to tell any of you how to think or how to run your lives. But it is still defamation (because I am not in fact being condescending), and it still sucks.

Comment #152: Dilan Esper  on  01/12  at  02:54 PM

I guess I should say something else about this, probably because I really don’t appreciate getting defamed by people I basically agree with. And I am going to keep this out of the gender area—some will still accuse me of mansplaining, I am sure, but maybe if I stay out of that area it might not piss so many people off.

I really think people’s first response to an argument—ANY argument—shouldn’t be to immediately question the speaker’s motives. Not that motives aren’t relevant—they often are—but because the way you get at truth is to try and figure out whether there is validity to what people are saying.

You are actually seeing the problem with not doing that with a lot of the right wing commentary post-Arizona shooting. EVERYONE on the right—whatever their views about the issues about intemperate right wing rhetoric—is assuming, as Ross Douthat said, that this is some sort of “gift to liberals”. In other words, that we were waiting for something like this to happen so we could take political advantage of it. And further, they are claiming that any arguments about right wing rhetoric must be immediately dismissed because of that alleged improper motive.

Now what is not going on there is any evaluation of an argument. It’s all focused on motives. And it’s really fun to focus on motives, for lots of reasons—(1) people like saying that everyone who disagrees with them is evil, (2) it doesn’t require questioning anything that one believes in, (3) it requires less effort than responding to an argument.

The passage above—“you just have better perspective on this stuff than all of us silly ladies”—isn’t an argument. It’s a statement of my motives for posting. It’s an assumption that the only reason I could possibly disagree with someone here is because I think women’s experiences are invalid or women are too stupid to know what is going on.

I don’t think anyone here is stupid. In fact, I assume most of the regular commenters here are smarter than I am, and I further assume that they are far more likely to have a sophisticated understanding of gender relations than I am. Not simply because of lived experience (though that isn’t irrelevant), but because the regular commenters on a feminist website have probably read a lot more feminist theory than I have, probably took more classes in it in college and grad school than I did, spend a lot more time thinking about it and talking about it than I do, etc.

So when someone says that I am assuming that all the commenters here are unintelligent and their views must be dismissed, (1) that hurts, and (2) that’s not true. Not in a long shot. I have no doubt that there is far more on heaven and earth than has ever been dreamt of in my philosophy when it comes to gender issues. That is, actually, one of the reasons I read feminist blogs.

I’d much, much rather be told that I am full of shit than that I am being condescending to intelligent feminists. Because I’ve spent most of my adult life caring about and advocating for both formal and substantive gender equality, and really think that my agreements with the feminist community are far, far more substantive and important than any disagreements I might have.

So when you use this term “mansplaining” to describe basically any thing I do to set out an argument that people disagree with, it’s personal. And I’m sorry if, by explaining how I feel about this, you think I’m mansplaining some more. I will tell you that back when I had time to engage in feminist activism, in my college and grad school years, the communities I was in would listen to how I felt too. Not because I was entitled to any male privilege—I wasn’t—but because we thought—or I thought we thought—that feminism was premised on some sort of mutual respect.

Comment #153: Dilan Esper  on  01/12  at  03:13 PM

That last post by Dilan has GOT to be some kind of bingo, right?

Comment #154: Well, what?  on  01/12  at  03:53 PM

Dilan :

I don’t think anyone here is stupid. In fact, I assume most of the regular commenters here are smarter than I am, and I further assume that they are far more likely to have a sophisticated understanding of gender relations than I am. Not simply because of lived experience (though that isn’t irrelevant), but because the regular commenters on a feminist website have probably read a lot more feminist theory than I have, probably took more classes in it in college and grad school than I did, spend a lot more time thinking about it and talking about it than I do, etc.

I think it’s great that you think that, since it’s probably true. But isn’t the logical conclusion here that they’re more likely to be right than you are ? And that your reaction shouldn’t be “I’m not mansplaining, you’ve got the definition wrong !” (implying that you know more about this than they do, which might be true but for all the reasons you gave it can’t be the default assumption), and more like “It wasn’t my intention to mansplain and I don’t know how I could have come across that way, could you please tell me what I my post gave you this impression and why ?”.

This might be rejected by some as “educate me plz” but it’s still better than digging the hole, and some people might actually decide to help.

So when someone says that I am assuming that all the commenters here are unintelligent and their views must be dismissed, (1) that hurts, and (2) that’s not true. Not in a long shot. I have no doubt that there is far more on heaven and earth than has ever been dreamt of in my philosophy when it comes to gender issues. That is, actually, one of the reasons I read feminist blogs.

This is very good to hear. But again, what you should be thinking isn’t “gah those people are unreasonably jumping at the most innocuous things” (which contradicts your respect for feminists) but “if all these people I respect and agree with are jumping at me I must be coming across wrong. I should ask them what it is that set them off and decide for myself if it’s something I can fix or if they truly are being unreasonable”

I’d much, much rather be told that I am full of shit than that I am being condescending to intelligent feminists. Because I’ve spent most of my adult life caring about and advocating for both formal and substantive gender equality, and really think that my agreements with the feminist community are far, far more substantive and important than any disagreements I might have.

Note that first line. It’s all about your feelings, which is nice but when the question involves people accusing you of being condescending, maybe you should think of the feelings of the person who thought they were condescended to ? Again, you respect women too much to blithely assume she must’ve been lying or unreasonable so there must be some reason your post made her feel that way. And you don’t want people to feel condescended to, right ? Maybe say “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to be condescending. I assure you I have the utmost respect for you. Unfortunately I don’t know what I said that could have come across that way, could you maybe give some details so I can avoid giving you that impression in the future ?”

Kit Whitfield just put up a related post if you’re interested :
http://kitwhitfield.blogspot.com/2011/01/sexists-spotters-guide-for-nice-men.html

Comment #155: Caravelle  on  01/12  at  05:01 PM

This is very good to hear. But again, what you should be thinking isn’t “gah those people are unreasonably jumping at the most innocuous things” (which contradicts your respect for feminists)

This is wrong. Thinking that someone is being unreasonable in a particular instance is not the same thing as disrespect. It just isn’t. People sometimes do unreasonably jump on things. I do it. Everyone does it.

Part of the problem here is that some people are clearly thinking “he’s saying something I think is profoundly wrong, therefore he must think I have a puny little mind and can’t understand what he thinks”. And if I point that out, I’m being condescending. This is just a vicious cycle, however. It goes like this:

1. Person X accuses person Y of condescension.
2. Person Y denies the charge.
3. Person X says “your denial is evidence of condescension”.

That’s good work if you can get it. But it isn’t proof of condescension. Indeed, it isn’t proof of anything. It’s begging the question, in the classic, formal logic sense of the term.

Having said all that,

Note that first line. It’s all about your feelings, which is nice but when the question involves people accusing you of being condescending, maybe you should think of the feelings of the person who thought they were condescended to ? Again, you respect women too much to blithely assume she must’ve been lying or unreasonable so there must be some reason your post made her feel that way.

It’s entirely possible that I said things that (1) were not intended as condescension but (2) condescended to people. But the problem with that is just saying that doesn’t resolve whether (2) is actually true. It’s just an assertion.

And having read the Kit Whitfield post, I guess what I would say is that I am not sure where there is room in this “mansplaining” calculus for the possibility of false charges of condescension. In other words, what happens when someone listens to women, doesn’t belittle their concerns, doesn’t think that his experiences trump theirs or that he has the last word on issues of gender relations, but simply thinks that their position, while sincerely held, is wrong. And then that person gets accused of condescension anyway.

What I am not seeing is any formula for how people can disagree about gender issues even after having fully understood the perspectives of feminist women.

Let me give you an example that many law students experience. In criminal law classes, the issue of the history and current standards of rape law is always discussed. And as you might imagine, there are a heck of a lot of different positions that are often advocated, including many that you and I would probably agree were misogynist.

But often, there will be a person who raises her hand in that room, who will start out “I was raped when I was 19 years old….”  And she will tell something of her story, which, as everyone knows, takes great courage to do.

As I understand feminism, it’s very important that her voice be heard.  And she has a special and distinctive and important standpoint when it comes to commenting about rape law.  But it doesn’t mean—it can’t mean—that after she finishes speaking and advocates whatever standard that she does for what should constitute consent and what evidence of consent should be accepted and what burden of proof it carries, nobody else can then disagree with that, certainly no man, because she was a rape victim and they weren’t. And it also can’t mean that anyone who, having fully heard that testimony, nonetheless says “I don’t think that’s right and here’s why” is condescending to her, or is implying or expressing that she is not intelligent enough to get that point and understand it and that somehow he is and should be in a more privileged position to talk about rape law.

This also doesn’t mean that it isn’t possible to actually be condescending in this situation—in fact, plenty of students were and are completely clueless and insensitive.

I hadn’t thought about this in a long time, but I remember that because it actually happened. And it happened in other classrooms too. And it was talked about among first year law students.

Comment #156: Dilan Esper  on  01/12  at  06:08 PM

The point is, I don’t comment in every thread (I read every post) and when I do comment, I don’t do it to troll, I do it to engage. And I do it precisely because I do think that I am dealing with a bunch of people who I can learn from and who might have a different perspective than I do. That, to me, is basic respect. Indeed, it’s a lot more fundamental respect than assuming that I am dealing with people who are so fragile that if I simply say what I think, I will cause great distress. I don’t, however, comment here because I think I am God’s gift to gender relations.

But I think this “mansplaining” thing is getting carried away because I am not getting, from the people deploying it, any real sense that they are drawing distinctions. Rather, I am getting the position that would say that anyone who raised their hand and disagreed with that rape victim in class, NOT about her experiences or their relevance, but simply about whether the legal position she advocated, however sincerely felt, was sound and correct and justified, is condescending, dismissing her experiences, and mansplaining.

Look, in the scheme of things, this isn’t the biggest deal in the world. And if I’m driving folks bats with my arguments, I apologize. I hope everyone can see that I am not coming in here trying to trash the place or its commenters or Amanda, or imply that everyone here is a bunch of idiots that need to listen to the great Dilan Esper and his brilliant and singular perspective on feminism. But if it has to be said, it has to be said, and if any offense has been taken, I do apologize for causing it.

Nonetheless, I am not convinced on this whole “mansplaining” issue and the rap that I am taking here is fair, for whatever that is worth (which may be nothing), and that’s why I have been defending myself.

Comment #157: Dilan Esper  on  01/12  at  06:10 PM

Look, it’s not about intent. It just isn’t. It’s about how one comes across. And how condescending sexist assholes come across. And trying not to come across like them. Because people can’t read your mind, they can just read your comments.

Part of the problem here is that some people are clearly thinking “he’s saying something I think is profoundly wrong, therefore he must think I have a puny little mind and can’t understand what he thinks”.

No. It’s not that you disagree, it’s the way you do it. And the way you respond to objections.

For example :

This is circular, though. If you get accused of “mansplaining” by “people who helped invent the thing” (and by the way, this is an aside, but I’m not sure this is true—it looks like the term was inspired by an LA Times essay by a feminist author and was invented by a feminist blogger and her commenters on another blog), and you deny it, you are therefore implicitly condescending to them and therefore guilty as charged!

Clue : you can’t deny it. You can say you didn’t intend to mansplain, but you can’t deny you came across the way readers say you came across. Almost by definition really. You can wonder aloud how your post could have been so misinterpreted (which you did for instance with the “I defy anyone to find anything condescending in what I said”, which Kristin replied to) but “I wasn’t mansplaining” is meaningless.

Take Kristin’s example that you totally dismissed (“this is all just circular”) :

  Is it possible that some women are so used to the condescension and that it is so common that they sometimes perceive it even in situations where the man is actually listening to what she says and not implicitly asserting gender privilege?

That’s not condescending AT ALL. Nope, you just have better perspective on this stuff than all of us silly ladies. We should all remember to stop and check in with you to see if maybe we’re imagining things before we run off trusting our wee little woman-brains—always remembering that if we disagree with you, it’s because we haven’t fully understood your position, and therefore more excruciatingly careful and lengthy explanation from you is called for.

I agree with her that that quote can easily be seen as condescending. The “Is it possible” obviously* code for “I think it’s probable but you don’t seem to agree so I’ll use a construction that logically implies a ‘yes’ answer and hope you won’t notice the sleight of hand”. Also, the question having an obvious “yes” answer has the bonus implication that the person you’re asking hasn’t ever thought of that before, otherwise it wouldn’t be phrased as a question. Which, given it’s a fairly obvious point, is a condescending assumption.

Then there’s the fact that when you see the problem “women say something is condescending but I disagree”, the explanation you immediately leap to is “women are conditioned to see condescension everywhere”, instead of say “men are conditioned not to see condescension directed toward women”. I mean, both are possible.

Besides, if condescension is so common that women tend to see it where it isn’t… Well, that means it’s pretty damn common doesn’t it ? That means that there will be a lot more true positives than false positives. That means one should try very hard not to sound condescending so as not to be a false positive. And that when false positives do occur one should be gracious and not make a big deal of it because it’s such an understandable mistake. Really, if condescension is so common then the condescension is certainly a much bigger deal than comments being mistakenly seen as condescending.

So all in all, that sentence is phrased disingenously, it takes the default position that women are mistaken and it’s self-defeating. These things make it come across as condescending to women. I’m sure that’s not what you intended but that’s what was written.

*Not saying you intended it that way. But that’s how it comes across. If you don’t want people to feel condescended to, don’t use that construction.

Comment #158: Caravelle  on  01/12  at  07:31 PM

Great link, Caravelle, thanks.

Particularly this part from the comments:

This doesn’t make him sexist. How could you say such a thing? It’s just in this case, he’s right and she’s wrong. That’s not him, that’s just circumstances. The kind of circumstances that happen every time a woman won’t let him do her thinking for her.

Comment #159: kristin  on  01/12  at  07:35 PM

Then there’s the fact that when you see the problem “women say something is condescending but I disagree”, the explanation you immediately leap to is “women are conditioned to see condescension everywhere”, instead of say “men are conditioned not to see condescension directed toward women”. I mean, both are possible. Besides, if condescension is so common that women tend to see it where it isn’t… Well, that means it’s pretty damn common doesn’t it ? That means that there will be a lot more true positives than false positives. That means one should try very hard not to sound condescending so as not to be a false positive. And that when false positives do occur one should be gracious and not make a big deal of it because it’s such an understandable mistake.

This all seems valid to me. Both are possible, and I don’t doubt that this whole “mansplaining” thing comes from a real place.

But bear in mind why I got upset in the first place. A snarky name was attached to the thing and it was lobbed at me WITHOUT, originally, really responding to what I say. Many of the original comments accusing me of mansplaining, in this and other threads, were one sentence long.

If people do that, it’s not likely to be met with a gracious response. Because lobbing a snarky term at someone may communicate to the in-group who uses that term all the time, but it doesn’t communicate anything other than dismissiveness to the person who it is actually directed at.

Believe me, if instead of one sentence claims that I was “mansplaining”, I was met with commentary like you are doing now at the outset, I probably wouldn’t have gotten defensive the way I did.

At any rate, I really didn’t mean to cause offense, and I apologize if I did. And also, I really appreciate your setting out your position at some length and putting up with me. smile It’s just much easier for me to see where other people are coming from when its presented in the form of an argument than when people are just throwing around a word without much analysis.

Comment #160: Dilan Esper  on  01/12  at  09:03 PM

This all seems valid to me.

Cool ! Actually, thanks. It’s nice to have the feeling someone actually read one’s 3-page textual analysis smile

Believe me, if instead of one sentence claims that I was “mansplaining”, I was met with commentary like you are doing now at the outset, I probably wouldn’t have gotten defensive the way I did.

Well… not everyone is as diligent in avoiding their real job as I am.

And also, I really appreciate your setting out your position at some length and putting up with me.

You’re very welcome. Hope I helped.

Comment #161: Caravelle  on  01/12  at  09:21 PM

It’s just much easier for me to see where other people are coming from when its presented in the form of an argument than when people are just throwing around a word without much analysis.

O.o

yeah, this whole not being a condescending asshat thing?  This isn’t the way to go about it.

Comment #162: jennygadget  on  01/15  at  07:00 PM
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