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Next entry: The lesser of two evils is not a winning strategy Previous entry: Can’t we all just get along?

Getting around the “vote against it/benefit from it” problem

Yesterday at Double X, I blogged about Oklahoma Republican representative and gubernatorial candidate Mary Fallin, and how she’s an example of how she’s an example of how crazy right wing politics have gotten. She couldn’t be bothered to go back for the emergency session to get more funding to the states, because she was that against it, but she was enticed to rush back to DC to vote for a bill that put $600 million towards a pointless display of beefing up border security.  Since she bothered to show up, she voted against the state emergency funding bill.  In other words, for Republicans, there’s not enough money to pave roads and pay state employees, but there is no such thing as too much money spent on pointless showboating to pander to racists.  (Not that Democrats are off the hook—-the showboating waste of money wouldn’t have passed without them.)  Of course, at the end of the day, Fallin doesn’t have to pay a political price for her ideological stance against basic government services that her Tea Cracker base pretends they don’t use.  At the end of the day, the bill was passed and Oklahoma is going to get $300 million.

And knowing the way Republicans operate, I wouldn’t be surprised if Fallin shows up at some event where the money is being spent and takes credit for it.

I used to be adamant that it was morally wrong to leave out districts and even entire states for this kind of funding when they routinely elect representatives who vote against it.  Sure, it’s annoying when Republicans get to have it both ways, but not everyone voted for them, and it seems wrong to deny employment and services to innocent people who often did their best to vote for Democrats and were simply outnumbered.  But I’m beginning to have second thoughts.  The main reason is that the utter lack of consequences for Republican districts means that Republicans keep getting elected, and they are reducing the size of the pot.  Everyone loses out, even if Republicans are in the minority, because Republicans are able to use what power they do have to keep tax cuts for the very wealthiest and to reduce the size of relief bills and social spending.  And if it weren’t for Republicans simply making up problems—-like pretending violent hordes of illegal immigrants are raping and pillaging on the border, when no such thing is happening—-we wouldn’t be wasting precious resources on crap like this border security bill.  I’m beginning to wonder if the price we pay for shielding voters from what it means to vote Republican is simply too steep to be tolerated any longer.

I don’t know if there’s a legal way to create a system where, if your representative doesn’t vote for the bill, you get no funding from it.  But as a thought experiment, it would be interesting to think about what it would mean.  The first thing that occurred to me is that doing such a thing would dramatically exacerbate the already-existing wealth and living standard differences between red areas and blue areas in the country.  Initially, this would be devastating to the poorest people—-but I have to point out that in red states, those people tend to be fucked already, as the local governments do everything in their power to keep them from getting services.  Still, this is such a morally indefensible position, I have to think that maybe you carve out an exception for services that offer direct assistance to the poor, like Medicaid.


Ideally, what you’d do is basically pull infrastructure and other services aimed at the middle and upper classes from any district where the representative refused to vote for it.  If the voters in a district are playing that game where they act morally offended when they see a sign indicating that the federal government is repaving a road or maintaining a park, then simply stop doing so.  No aid for fire departments, schools, police.  Nothing to keep the lights on.  The immediate economic damage would be pretty steep right out of the box, and the long term economic damage would be immeasurable.  Red areas would become close to developing nations even more rapidly than is currently happening.  The flux of people out of those areas and into more prosperous ones would get even worse.  This would be compounded by the fact that this strategy of “you only get it if you vote for it” would free up more funds to blue areas to build the kind of city infrastructure evil liberals like, such as better public transportation.  Making a middle class life for yourself in a red area would probably become impossible, especially if we also pulled back funding for federal assistance programs aimed at the middle class if representatives vote against it.  The gap between the haves and the have-nots, geographically speaking, would grow dramatically.

Suburban areas would probably be the most dramatically affected.  The suburbs only exist because of federal government largesse in building all those highway systems that make escaping the evil liberal cities possible.  If roads fell into disrepair, the economic stability of the suburbs would collapse.  They’d pretty much have to dissolve their heavily Republican districts.  That alone would devastate the Republican hold on power. 

But the human cost probably is just too much to bear.  For one thing, Republicans campaign on the idea that you should hate big city liberal elites because they’re so smug with their big brains and fancy coffee drinks, and that tactic would only have more resonance.  This couldn’t be a short term squeeze.  Voters would have to go through a lot of hell before they clued in to basic realities.  Plus, a lot of the reason this would only work is, like I said, it would actually just break up conservative communities as people flee the economic devastation and move to blue districts.  Plus, it wouldn’t be so great to live in blue areas that get denser faster than even a well-funded government can handle.  By the time the plan worked to get the voters to the place where they start voting their own economic self-interest, the devastation would be so bad it would take decades to recover.

That said, there’s ways to create a milder version of this kind of long term plan to make it harder for Republicans to win races.  Democrats would be wise to budget in such ways where they invest more in building city infrastructure, with a special eye towards building up the mid-sized mildly liberal cities throughout the U.S.  Attracting the generally liberal populations that you get in such places would help turn more districts blue.  Prioritize funding of public transportation over building more roads that allow the suburbs to explode.  Rewrite the regulations on who gets the middle class funding to discourage suburbanization.  Invest in building racially diverse communities, and discourage white flight.  There’s many ways to get similar effects without creating massive economic devastation.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:48 AM • (82) Comments

I would think that the bills could be written to mandate that any district whose representatives or state whose senators voted against the measure had opted out of the benefits of the bill.  It would never get through, since the Republicans are past masters of having their cake and eating it too.  I remain eternally grateful that I got out of Oklahoma 20+ years ago, before the lunatics took over the asylum.

Comment #1: DrDick  on  08/12  at  10:59 AM

I suppose your plan is more realistic than hoping that members of the Democratic party would collectively 1) have spines and 2) distinguish themselves from Republicans in meaningful ways.

Comment #2: SweetT  on  08/12  at  11:10 AM

The thing is, Republicans aren’t at all averse to doing the opposite.  Republican* policies devastate urban areas, and they do it very intentionally.  The more rational ones know that those areas don’t vote for them anyway, while many of them are just irrational bigots who use the levers of power to punish anybody different from them whenever they get the opportunity.

*And DLC type.

Comment #3: libdevil  on  08/12  at  11:15 AM

Typo, Amanda: It’s “hordes of Mexicans”.

Comment #4: Abra  on  08/12  at  11:16 AM

If it was made so that it targeted the middle class (exceptions for Medicaid and UI benefits etc), then I could definitely get behind this.  And I’ve long thought it’s simply outrageous what they get away with.  ANd I do mean the voters.  I have an aunt and uncle who are teabaggers and are supporting candidates who will, if they get the chance, eliminate or destroy SS and Medicare.  Meanwhile, they’re lives are good ONLY because of SS and Medicare.  I’d like to see them stripped of those benefits, today.  If it’s good enough for me, it’s good enough for them.  But no, they get away with voting to do away with SS and Medicare for me.

Squeeze them till they squeak.

Comment #5: JennyLI  on  08/12  at  11:29 AM

Actually, now that I think about it, UI benefits do go the middle class, probably mainly.  Maybe no exception for UI.  That should really get them squeaking.

Comment #6: JennyLI  on  08/12  at  11:32 AM

But isn’t that how “earmarks” work already. And they’re not a wonderful idea.  There’s already too much funding that only goes to places whose members have clout; and members already vote for each others’ earmarks, without pausing to think about whether or not it’s worthwhile.  SO, I don’t think there’d be much positive difference if ALL funding was distributed in that way.

Comment #7: elisabeth51  on  08/12  at  11:44 AM

I’m just going to leave this here http://www.loopytube.com/video/302

Also if somehow this happened how many dead bodies would the policy have to accumulate before we thought, ok maybe they learnt their lesson?

Comment #8: pharmakos  on  08/12  at  11:46 AM

You know, Fred Clark (aka slacktivist) has recently posted on two potentially massive infrastructure projects that would seem to be no-brainers to go for politically and that would reap massive economic benefits for the US as a whole - and urban areas in particular - for years, possibly decades. (In short: stop deferring maintenance on the country’s sewers and water supply, and fix it now; but you should read the whole posts)

But these measures would immediately bring most of their benefits to urban areas and small towns, and would employ people in that icky “manual labor” stuff that some politicians like to think shouldn’t be done in the US anymore, so for some reason there probably isn’t actually a political way to make it happen.

Comment #9: Daniel Martin  on  08/12  at  11:50 AM

Other way around—make sure the projects have BIG signs that say, “This project funded by the Federal Government.  Your Representative voted ____ it.”

Comment #10: Punditus Maximus  on  08/12  at  11:58 AM

That said, we need to stop pretending that the Obama Administration has a clue here.  We’ve got 9.6% unemployment; he should never speak about any other topic until a infrastructure WPA is put into place.

Comment #11: Punditus Maximus  on  08/12  at  11:59 AM

I don’t think you’d need to cut out funding entirely. Maybe just 50%. But I think the crucial thing would be that every half-funded program would be required to spend 1% of its remaining budget on posters, stickers and other form of direct outreach telling residents that it was only partially funded because their rep had voted against it.

Hmm. I wonder whether this would work even without funding disparities. Just call it a national transparency act and require that every federally-funded project have clearly-visible, permanent signs saying whether their rep voted for it.

Comment #12: paul  on  08/12  at  12:01 PM

the devastation would be so bad it would take decades to recover.

Well, even without such a program the Republicans have created devastation that will take decades to repair.

But I agree that a simpler program would possibly achieve similar results, and as libdevil says above, the right is not hesitant to work for policies that negatively affect urban areas.  A simple change;  adjust the transportation funding mechanism so that communities have to pay for the infrastructure that serves them.  Low tax suburbs and exurbs will disappear.

Comment #13: Zombie rotten mcdonald  on  08/12  at  12:13 PM

1.Would eliminating Gerrymandering help?

2. Our infrastructure is sadly taken for granted. I do not mind paying a higher gas tax in New York State for our excellent snow plows and the State Workers who run them, #fixing potholds, inspecting bridges,  et. al..

3. I was curious who the voters of Boone County West Virgina ( the mine disaster in April happened) in 2000, 2004, and 2008. 54% voted for Obama in ‘08, 60% for McCain.  60% for Gore in 2000. Kind of a mixed bag. http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/index.html

4. When are they going to go Galt? I’m sure if we all chipped in, we could afford to send them to Somalia.

Great post btw!
#My ex is a truck driver: in Kentucky, a motercycle carrying two people were killed when they hit a pothole.

Comment #14: pitbullgirl65  on  08/12  at  12:14 PM

The obvious solution would be to punt many of those programs back to the states, possibly with provisions that allow for individual states to pool money for shared projects. But one of the whole principles of federal programs is to insulate them from local economies and politics. If a district gets funding in spite of the vote of its representative, the system is working as intended.

Comment #15: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/12  at  12:17 PM

Another great idea Amanda!

Comment #16: Albert Cirrus  on  08/12  at  12:21 PM

“Republicans keep getting elected, and they are reducing the size of the pot. “

That depends on what you mean by “the pot”.  If you see Government, particularly the Federal Government, as the sole source of all wealth and means then of course it is evil to reduce “the pot”.  In my view the only sane part of the Republican credo is fiscal responsibility.  The racism in the Republican ranks is awful in its approach to domestic policy (e.g. immigration) and foreign affairs.  But they have a point when they say we can’t afford to have the government fund everything we would like to have.  “The pot” includes assets and money people have in their own homes, pockets, bank accounts and/or mattresses. 

Since we’re engaging in this fantasy of withholding federal funds from states which do not vote for a particular program, let’s add another feature.  While withholding those funds from the erring states, you must allow those states to keep the federal taxes which represent their share of the federal tax base or deficit dip for that program.  Several states’ majorities might not find that a punishment at all.  Let’s say for argument’s sake that my state gets $100 million a year for education subsidies from the federal government and that one could quantify the amount of taxes my states’ residents pay in federal taxes which go to the subsidy program nationwide and that amount is $110 million a year.  If my state were given the option of only paying $10 million in federal taxes for that program in return for forgoing the $100 million subsidy, we might joyfully tell the federal government to butt out of education in our state.  Meanwhile if a federal subsidy is available and taking it does nothing to ease the tax burdens of my states’ citizens, it is generally lunacy not to take it. 

Since UI has been raised, let me ask the assembled wisdom:  How long should UI be available after the loss of a job?  Indefinitely?  As long as the unemployment rate stays above X percent?  If any deadline is set there will be anecdotal individual evidence of injustice.  I had really hoped that government by anecdote had passed with Ronnie Raygun.

Comment #17: MiddleageLiberal  on  08/12  at  12:38 PM

And the more I think about it, the more I’m convinced it’s a dangerously stupid idea because we need to accept the political reality that we won’t always be in power. Opening up the power to deny districts infrastructure funding on the basis of political votes is giving the congress to deny districts social services funding along the same lines.

Comment #18: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/12  at  12:40 PM

Events where representatives are taking credit for the funding should be key protest points as well. The press won’t make a point of it unless someone’s there to make a nice controversy they can spin into a story.

Comment #19: Left_Wing_Fox  on  08/12  at  12:43 PM

CB: that’s already true.  The largest per-person recipient of antiterror funds was Wyoming during the Bush years.

Comment #20: Punditus Maximus  on  08/12  at  12:56 PM

“The press won’t make a point of it unless someone’s there to make a nice controversy they can spin into a story.”

Correction:
The press won’t make a point of it unless <strike>someone’s</strike> a bunch of white people, many retired, many on disability, all of them angry, are there to make a nice controversy they can spin into a story.

If a bunch of DFH’s protest, it’ll be ignored…

Comment #21: MikeEss  on  08/12  at  12:58 PM

Let’s say for argument’s sake that my state gets $100 million a year for education subsidies from the federal government and that one could quantify the amount of taxes my states’ residents pay in federal taxes which go to the subsidy program nationwide and that amount is $110 million a year.  If my state were given the option of only paying $10 million in federal taxes for that program in return for forgoing the $100 million subsidy, we might joyfully tell the federal government to butt out of education in our state.  Meanwhile if a federal subsidy is available and taking it does nothing to ease the tax burdens of my states’ citizens, it is generally lunacy not to take it.

Red states get more in subsidies than they pay in taxes. And even if a red state could opt out of paying federal taxes so they could just do it themselves with state taxes can you really imagine any republican saying we have to raise taxes to pay for education? Really? The federal government protects red states from their own insanity.

Since UI has been raised, let me ask the assembled wisdom:  How long should UI be available after the loss of a job?

Obviously you have to adjust it for to the ratio of job seekers to positions available. If there are 5 or 6 people applying for every job available its not that people are deciding to stay unemployed for the benefits. If you cut unemployment benefits you are asking for people to starve and end up on the streets. In boom times cutting down on the length of time people can be on benefits makes sense. In a recession\depression its madness.

Comment #22: pharmakos  on  08/12  at  01:02 PM

How is lonnie not banned yet?

Comment #23: pharmakos  on  08/12  at  01:05 PM

Wow, you have been out of Texas how long and this is already tempting? C’mon. Republican hypocrisy is the only thing keeping my Deep-South state (full of gerrymandered Republican districts) from completely falling the fuck apart from bankruptcy and infrastructure failure.

If we stopped getting funding despite the actions of our congress reps (and governor, and state legislature…), people wouldn’t come to their senses, it’d just give republicans an excuse for more racist-dogwhistle speeches about how Our Tax Dollars were being stolen by the feds to be passed out to passersby on the street corners of Harlem and South Central. So of course they’d have to cut those taxes even further. You know how this works—if you make things worse, it doesn’t bring people to their senses, it just gives them the desperation to dig in deeper. Also, I like my roads being paved, and I don’t want to have to flee to the coast to keep ‘em that way.

Instead, we need a small change to those nice big Recovery Act signs. Instead of just saying ‘This Project Paid For by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act’ (or whatever the exact text is), they should say ‘Paid for by the Federal Government. Your Senator/Congresswoman/Congressman, ____ voted For/Against This Project’ Do that, and amend the ethics rules such that taking credit for a spending measure you voted against counts as some sort of breech,* and we’re golden.

*Which is easier said than done and all, since spending bills are often huge and complicated and all.

Comment #24: impossibletospell  on  08/12  at  01:07 PM

I was curious who the voters of Boone County West Virgina ( the mine disaster in April happened) in 2000, 2004, and 2008. 54% voted for Obama in ‘08, 60% for McCain.  60% for Gore in 2000. Kind of a mixed bag. http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/index.html

Not to go off-topic but West Virginia is a really bad example to pick.  Their basic level of unionization with mines and the few remaining steel mills mixes against the agrarian and racist vote to turn WV into a sort of mixed bag.

You know how this works—if you make things worse, it doesn’t bring people to their senses, it just gives them the desperation to dig in deeper.

I hate to say this but I agree.  The conservatives would simply spin the further degradation into a rally cry, hell that is what they’ve been doing for the last 40 years as the US Military kept most southern states employed with more military bases than they could ever need instead of building hospitals & public-private co-op businesses. 

The slow slide is ideally to push the power further into the hands of the wealthy and powerful.  The republicans have figured out how to use the oldest and stupidest to be the loudest and try and make it seem like it the truth.  Then again I think if the democrats keep control of both houses of congress this could severely deflate tea partiers and actually offer a moderate solution.

Comment #25: Xeranar  on  08/12  at  01:24 PM

Has no one noticed the substantial overage of voters in the figures quoted by pitbullgirl?  Thank goodness, it’s not actually that bad.  Must have been a typo/several typos.  The actual figures given at uselectionatlas.org for the 2008 presidential race are:  Obama 53%, McCain 46%.

Whew! back to reality.

Comment #26: Older  on  08/12  at  01:36 PM

But they have a point when they say we can’t afford to have the government fund everything we would like to have.

No, we can’t afford endless war/military industrial complex welfare. 

We can’t afford letting the richest among us get increasingly higher amounts of the GNP while letting them have a cap on SS taxes AND loopholes that end up with them paying smaller percentages of tax than the rest of the country. 

We can’t afford to let companies continue to cut salaries and benefits while increasing their own profitability and then spending all that new profit on the top men in charge.  You want to pay your CEO multimillions while cutting everyone else’s pay so that he makes hundreds of times what the average worker does?  Fine, you get a major tax to pay for the pain your company is causing the country.  Don’t want to pay taxes?  Fine, spread the wealth around to the employees that made it possible.

We can’t afford to force people to buy for-profit insurance at ever increasing rates for ever decreasing benefits.

Imagine what we could have afforded if we hadn’t wasted a trillion dollars on Iraq—wasted since they were never a threat, invading them has made us less safe, and Cheney’s pals didn’t really need to raid the Treasury.

We can afford to be a first world nation.  We will not do it, however, b/c the Republicans are champions at race-baiting and fear-mongering to get the ignorant to vote against their best interests—and gutting education has been a key point to that.  We will not do it b/c the Democrats are equally beholden to corporate interests and will not try to enact the legislation they campaign on.

The fact that the Democrats are worthless as a whole is a bigger problem—when people get angry enough to vote for the alternative, they still don’t get what they need.

I understand the desire to punish people who vote against their best interests, but I think we’ve reached the point of pain anyway.  We are all suffering (except for the upper 1% who seem to believe the Bastille will never come again).  I do like the idea of putting your representatives’ names and how they voted on the signs.  I’m sick of Jindal, et. al. taking giant Federal checks to people and not letting them know that these are funds they “refused”.

Comment #27: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/12  at  01:39 PM

It’s an interesting thought experiment, but I’m sure we can agree that the basic balance of power between the branches and the federal/state governments would be pretty effing unbalanced if we started pushing for blatantly punitive funding. I mean, only giving infrastructure funding to places that vote for you is pretty straight-up vote buying. At least your solution is more sensible than the common cry to let the South secede again. Yes, because the last time we tried that it was such a sound blow for the human rights of the majority of the people who lived here.

Comment #28: purpleshoes  on  08/12  at  01:56 PM

You want the money, (R)?

Fine: Giant Cardboard Check. Every TV camera in your state. Shake hands with a Treasury Dept employee.

The fine print: Offer can be withdrawn at any time if you shit all over the Federal government which is giving you the money you have failed tax your own citizens to provide the services they want.

Comment #29: ThresherK  on  08/12  at  02:07 PM

“How is lonnie not banned yet?”

Amanda probably keeps him around as her personal stooge.  Kind of like a manservant/guyfriday.

Comment #30: JennyLI  on  08/12  at  02:53 PM

I think Israel has tried that in Gaza and the only thing it promoted was the misery of the people in there.

Besides Republicans would spin it into an even bigger victim “us against them” persecuted mythology. 

What could be done is on nay event this money is used, have huge signs with the name of the people who voted against it. This way even if they show up to take the credit, they get shamed.

Comment #31: Renmiri  on  08/12  at  02:56 PM

I don’t know if there’s a legal way to create a system where, if your representative doesn’t vote for the bill, you get no funding from it.

Hell, I’d settle for barring a representative (or his/her political party) from opposing a measure and then taking credit for its benefits once it passes. The Repukes have done this over and over with measures like Social Security. Just wait—-it’ll happen with health care, too.

Comment #32: Bitter Scribe  on  08/12  at  02:59 PM

Amanda probably keeps him around as her personal stooge.  Kind of like a manservant/guyfriday.

so with knute and lonnie we only need one more to form the pandagon three stooges. Whatever happened to rugged in montana? though I’m sure that was intended to be tongue in cheek. I guess dana could fit in there, maybe?

Comment #33: pharmakos  on  08/12  at  03:03 PM

“This way even if they show up to take the credit, they get shamed.”

A person has to have the capacity to feel shame in order to be shamed. 

Republicans?  Shameless…

Comment #34: MikeEss  on  08/12  at  03:12 PM

# 34 Check the last thread. He is called “I know nothing”.

I am with people that signage trying to connect policy to what people see may be the best option. Most voters are ridiculously uninformed and assume that all money is going to help those lazy others. They don’t think that good roads and working sewers, and SS and other entitlements for the middle class are government programs but rather things that just show up and work right and can be taken for granted if you are of decent, hardworking folk. When those things cease to exist, people will get angry, but may not understand why. There needs to be some sort of education campaign connecting policy to its implementation, demarcating what is state vs local vs federally funded, etc.

And #17, red states do get more federal spending than they pay in taxes. http://www.nationalpriorities.org/publications/what_came_to_and_left_your_state_in_2005
A number less than one means the state loses money to federal programs. Part of the fun of this sort of thought experiment is imagining western states putting their money where their libertarian mouths are as each rugged, independent, manly man builds his own, non-socialist road.

Comment #35: alysia  on  08/12  at  03:28 PM

looks like we have an upset tea cracker.

(Did you get that one from me, Amanda?)

Comment #36: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  08/12  at  03:29 PM

There is a way to do this.  But it takes a spine.

There is a procedure called “impoundment,” where the executive can “impound” the funds to be spent at a later date.  The process began with Thomas Jefferson, who impounded funds for Mississippi River gunboats, with the claim “favorable and peaceful turn of affairs on the Mississippi rendered an immediate execution of the law unnecessary.”

Other presidents impounded funds at various times.  Nixon attempted to impound significant funds when Congress overrode his vetos of spending bills, this lead to a Supreme Court case that he lost, 9-0, based on separation of powers.  (I’d guess a Roberts/Scalia/Alito/Thomas court would look more favorably on executive powers.)  Congress passed a law allowing for impoundment with a majority vote.

So, what would need to happen is a president with a spine would have to say, “vote against this stimulus bill, and I will impound the funds for your district until such time as your elected representative feels the funds are necessary.”  Congress would then have to vote on the impoundment.  Either the recalcitrant representatives would have to vote to break the impoundment (voting in favor of the stimulus spending) or vote to support the impoundment (and allow their district to be starved of stimulus funds.)  This requires the representatives who supported the stimulus to be willing to support the impoundment—enough to guarantee impoundment succeeds unless the recalcitrant representatives vote en mass against impoundment and for stimulus.

Can you imaging the gnashing of teeth?

Comment #37: James  on  08/12  at  03:30 PM

(I’d guess a Roberts/Scalia/Alito/Thomas court would look more favorably on executive powers.)

There’s a Democrat in the White House.  A black Democrat.  That may change their perceptions a bit.

Comment #38: libdevil  on  08/12  at  03:41 PM

Caren:There’s 1.6 TRILLION in corporate savings, with another 2 TRILLION in corporate profits. Finding ways to shake that out of the trees needs to be priority number one.

You can do that through taxation, or through massive job creation, resulting in higher wages given, or you can raise the minimum wage, or you can change the tax code to discourage speculation and encourage growth and long-term profitibility, or you can lower the age of retirement, or you can shorten the workweek (again, to increase wages)

There’s a bunch of options.

And a lot of them you can do without adding one red cent to the deficit.

Comment #39: Karmakin  on  08/12  at  03:42 PM

Hmm. I wonder whether this would work even without funding disparities. Just call it a national transparency act and require that every federally-funded project have clearly-visible, permanent signs saying whether their rep voted for it

What will happen is that every politician will vote for the act saying “Apple pie and motherhood are *good* things we should have” and then the Repubs will try to get a bill passed that says “...but we can only purchase them if we bomb some wogs first”.  And the law will be written to be based on teh first of those votes.

Comment #40: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/12  at  03:42 PM

Alysia, thanks for the link.  There may be enough data there to analyze the education subsidy fantasy.  I’ll check it out.  My particular state is well above the $1.00 par, I suspect because we have a big shipyard and a few big military bases and facilities.  I am surprised that W.VA is only third in federal expenditures per dollar of taxes paid, behind New Mexico and Mississippi. Again, part of it is that Byrd couldn’t justify high military expenditures there.  But these tables cut off in 2005.  If Byrd were still alive and alert he might be able to get bucks for Afghanistan terrain training.  They do have mountains there.  BTW, why is so much military money going to New Mexico?  Is Los Alamos really that expensive anymore?

James, what a delicious idea.

Comment #41: MiddleageLiberal  on  08/12  at  04:14 PM

Do you have any idea how offensive this is?

Less than suggesting that the human rights of gays and lesbians should be subject to the whims of people who say “poo poo hole”.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/12  at  04:40 PM

I haven’t banned lonnie, because I always liked Dana Carvey’s grumpy old man act.  And lonnie’s willing to do it for free right here in comments!

Comment #43: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/12  at  04:43 PM

I have heard part of the expense of NM is that they have a lot of engineers who are expensive to pay and lots of high tech stuff. Additionally they have a lot of space and a relatively small population so the infrastructure is really expensive relative to the taxable population. I think they also have a lot of water-issues that are expensive.

It would be really interesting to determine what exactly makes a state a money pit, especially in terms of politics—like powerful senators, etc. I know that iowa gets a ton of shit for the caucus and being THE REASON FOR FUCKED UP AG POLICY when it would appear that we spend a lot more in taxes than we get back.

Comment #44: alysia  on  08/12  at  05:04 PM

That said, there’s ways to create a milder version of this kind of long term plan to make it harder for Republicans to win races.  Democrats would be wise to budget in such ways where they invest more in building city infrastructure, with a special eye towards building up the mid-sized mildly liberal cities throughout the U.S.  Attracting the generally liberal populations that you get in such places would help turn more districts blue.  Prioritize funding of public transportation over building more roads that allow the suburbs to explode.  Rewrite the regulations on who gets the middle class funding to discourage suburbanization.  Invest in building racially diverse communities, and discourage white flight.  There’s many ways to get similar effects without creating massive economic devastation.

As a Texas resident, I can tell you right now that this is exactly what Tom DeLay did in Sugar Land, but in the reverse.  He funneled a fortune into Hwy 59, channeled millions into suburban infrastructure, and killed every attempt to run public transit out to the neighborhoods.  And it worked like a dream.  Sugar Land is a total bubble city.  Segregated from the scary black people in downtown Houston.  Segregated from the poor rural areas like Rosenburg and Missouri City.  Segregated from the higher property taxes of the Greater Houston Area.  And red as the devil.

Seems to work pretty well for Republicans.  I’ve got no problem letting Democrats give it a try.  You only have to look as far as the liberal bastions of New York, LA, and Chicago to notice how infrastructure and city building turns the major cities into political juggernauts.

Comment #45: Zifnab25  on  08/12  at  06:15 PM

This is like Georgia politics on a larger scale. Legislators pour all the money they want into the outer suburbs and then blame the lack of cash going to the rest of the state on big bad Atlanta. And then they tap the education fund dry to make up the loss.

Comment #46: scrumby  on  08/12  at  06:35 PM

No less than the Sacramento Bee editorial board just recommended something akin to your line of thought Amanda.  As many of you may know, CA has a bit of a budget problem.  The Bee actually suggested the other day that Arnold threaten his Reep minority leader colleagues with shutting down the public university/college in their respective districts.  I just about spit out my coffee reading that one.  As I work in the state legislative cesspool (non-profit!), I said to my boss could it be we’re possibly heading in that direction?  If no less than our paper of record is now openly suggesting it?  Our system is so unworkable do they (Gov or majority Dems) actually consider doing this?  Gosh I hope so! 

Well, at least the threatening part…I don’t want college kids/staff hurt in the wake of that nuclear option.

Comment #47: cawahine  on  08/12  at  08:57 PM

I think you raise some valid points and it’s a legitimate debate to have, but I have to ask, is your viewpoint at all influenced by your current geographic location?  More specifically, is it possible that it is easier to argue for punitive treatment of red states after you have moved from a very red state to a very blue state?

You bring up a very legitimate problem.  Red state elected officials don’t typically suffer any consequences for voting against the interests of their least empowered constituents when the legislation is popular enough to pass despite their opposition.

But there’s a part of my that still thinks the proposed cure might be worse than the disease.  It’s why I despise hearing progressives cheering for red states to secede.  Let’s just take Texas… would you really be OK with letting wingnuts be able to destroy the lives of millions of poor Hispanics who don’t have the means to get out of the sovreign nation of Texas?  Is it just collateral damage?  And most importantly, is it not easier to not be bothered by this cruelty when you don’t have to witness it firsthand because you live hundreds of miles away from it in a deep blue oasis?

I know you’re opposed to the idea of red state secesion Amanda, so that last graf wasn’t pointed at you, but rather those who have occasionally hinted that they wouldn’t be bothered by the secession of the red states.  It’s an easy position to take if you were lucky enough to have been born in new York or California, or have the economic means to just pack up and move on a whim.  Nobody chose where they would be born geographically, and many don’t have the means to relocate even if they want to.  I think punishing people because of where they happen to live, especially if they don’t have a realistic option of living elsewhere, is cruel and unusual.

If you nuke Texas you’ll probably wind up killing a lot more wingnuts than progressives, but that doesn’t erase the fact that a lot of progressives will still be unjustifiably killed for things that aren’t their fault.

Maybe I’m too much of a bleeding heart, but I can’t bring myself to supporting something that will almost certainly result in causing suffering for those who least deserve it.  That, and I live in a red-leaning purple state, and I’m in no position to just get up and leave right now.

Aside from moral arguments, the idea of blocking certain districts from federal funds simply beacuse of how their Congressperson voted on an issue is loaded with Constitutional problems.  Even if you think it’s a good idea, it will never happen without amending the U.S. Constitution, which the Framers astutely made sure would be nearly impossible to do without widespread and overwhelming public support.

Comment #48: DTGslu2K  on  08/12  at  09:41 PM

“Tea Cracker”

Amanda,

Do you have any idea how offensive this is?

Would you prefer it if we reverted to calling your kind Teabaggers?

Or maybe even opt for the moniker Olbermann gave you douchebags awhile ago… Tea Klux Klan?

Comment #49: DTGslu2K  on  08/12  at  09:45 PM

I was curious who the voters of Boone County West Virgina ( the mine disaster in April happened) in 2000, 2004, and 2008. 54% voted for Obama in ‘08, 60% for McCain.

I think you mistyped.  Boone County, WV went 54% Obama, 44% McCain in 2008.  For whatever reason, the website you linked has the traditional colors backwards - they assign red for Democrats, blue for Republicans.  In 1976, NBC became the first TV network to color designate states on Election Night, but they also did it the opposite of how it is generally done today - states won by Carter were shaded red, states won by Ford were shaded blue.

In any case, Boone County, WV was won by Obama, but it’s a fairly small county, with fewer than 10,000 total votes cast.

Comment #50: DTGslu2K  on  08/12  at  09:57 PM

Would you prefer it if we reverted to calling your kind Teabaggers?

You mean you’ve stopped?

They started calling themselves that - I’m going to keep referring to them as teabaggers even when they’re an historical footnote in “The Decline and Fall of the American Empire”.

Comment #51: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/12  at  11:10 PM

They started calling themselves that

Well, yes, here in the reality-based world that is what happened.  My mother, though, despite the fact that I explained that their term had, um, connotations back in the day when it first came up, has decided that what actually happened was that the left came up with this hateful, derogatory slur and that tea bags were never a component of the Tea Party Movement.

Comment #52: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/13  at  12:15 AM

My tea-bagger aunt is convinced that the sex-act was named after the tea-party a la santorum

Comment #53: alysia  on  08/13  at  01:02 AM

Impoundment is unconstitutional, but there is no reason the Speaker or the Conference can’t strip any earmarks they want to - its takes political courage, and like reforming the Senate rules, will only happen under the Republicans.

Seriously I haven’t felt this hopless since 2004.

Comment #54: bay of arizona  on  08/13  at  04:40 AM

I don’t there is a moral dilemma here that is worse than what’s intrinsic in democracy anyway. Adults should be held responsible for the consequences of their actions.  Willfull persistence in ignorance and evil counts as an action. Sadly, I think the only to affect the change Amanda has in mind is to dissolve the existing USA into several distinct political units.

Comment #55: PIGL  on  08/13  at  06:50 AM

Weird, I thought the politics of resentment were a Republican thing. But even weirder is that you think that this might actually have a salutary effect. That’s nonsense—the worse economic conditions get, the more anxious and conservative people get. This point has been made ad nauseum: studies show that having people think about death before answering a questionnaire makes them answer more conservatively; history shows that economic dislocation has led to the rise of right-wing populism and racist protectionism time after time; our own daily experience shows that angry, scared people make stupid, self-damaging decisions.

Red states don’t just have sky-high poverty and ruined social services because they vote Republican. They also vote Republican because they have sky-high poverty and ruined social services. You think that if things just get bad enough they’ll have a sudden progressive epiphany, but the last 2000 years of history beg to differ.

Comment #56: heresiarch  on  08/13  at  01:46 PM

@JohnMckay

Where did lonnie misspell a word (in this thread, y’know, so it can be “point out”)?  Lately, he’s been keeping his vocabulary pretty simple: “pee-pee” and “poo-poo” and it is hard to argue that those can even be misspelled.

I added a (sic) when I quoted him a couple days back, but really, lonnie’s statements are so stupid on their face that there really isn’t any need to rub it in.

Also, you seem new here, but I pointed out in a previous thread that we know conservatives are stupid and racist because we actually know conservatives and they are, in fact, frequently stupid and racist.

Comment #57: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/13  at  02:36 PM

“Tea Cracker” is offensive?  Boo fucking hoo.

Comment #58: Eric_RoM  on  08/13  at  03:44 PM

oh that’s hilarious, liberals are the ones who are really prejudiced. headofteapartywithpresidentisniggarsign.jpg Oh, wait. we have reasons for calling conservatives crackers. lots of them. We wish we didn’t because that would mean conservatives have stopped being gigantic racists but you crackers keep giving us reasons. Tell us more about them illegals, anchor babies and give us some of your complaints about reverse racism, quotas and how its unfair black people can use the word nigger but you can’t.

Comment #59: pharmakos  on  08/13  at  07:25 PM

It is hysterical that morons like lonnie and johnmckay want us to believe they actually care about racially offensive speech. Hysterical.

Comment #60: kristin  on  08/13  at  08:12 PM

@JohnMckay

You called me “lady” on a fucking feminist blog and accused me of “playing hard to get.”  (Is that a step up or down from lonnie’s scare-quoted “feminist,” I wonder?)

So, you are unbelievably stupid and sexist, and flaunt it, but acknowledging the racism on your side of the aisle makes you all sad?

There was actually, y’know, as I noted in my comment a CONTEXT to that comment, which you clearly didn’t bother to, y’know, actually go read.  Nowhere in my comment (on either thread) was there the word “all.”

All of this is, by the way, a response to you causing shit by (incorrectly, I assume?) pointing out a spelling error, predicting our broad liberal response to (non-existent) error, and then analyzing this (hypothetical) response.  Truly you have shown all of us coy ladies the error of our ways.

@pharmakos

see: Dr. Laura

Comment #61: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/13  at  09:46 PM

The true racial bean counters have always been thee democrats, its what the whole census has devolved into once they got a hold of it.

Oh, for the good old days when niggers and spics weren’t counted, and could be ignored, amirite John?

Comment #62: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/13  at  10:04 PM

@pharmakos
see: Dr. Laura

what?


The whole economic melt down is the result of social engineering at F mac and F mae.

It really wasn’t at all. There were 2 crises. One was the housing bubble and the other was the financial crises. The financial one was much much bigger. The housing one was about institutions letting people borrow without checking if they could pay back the money. They didn’t check because they sold on the loans to wall street. Black people make up about 12% of the population. How many houses could they possibly have been lent money to buy? Lenders gave money to everyone who would take it. If it was all just a problem of the poor people having a bunch of mortgages they couldn’t pay the government could have easily ended the crises by buying them all up in a month you dumb motherfucker.

The financial crises was much bigger and is harder to explain when you are too stupid to understand what a cds or a cdo is. I don’t know why I bother.

Comment #63: pharmakos  on  08/13  at  10:04 PM

@pharmakos

We wish we didn’t because that would mean conservatives have stopped being gigantic racists but you crackers keep giving us reasons. Tell us more about [...] complaints about reverse racism, quotas and how its unfair black people can use the word nigger but you can’t.

From Media Matters.

Comment #64: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/13  at  10:26 PM

In case the above wasn’t clear, the quoted text is by pharmakos, the linked story if from Media Matters.

Comment #65: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/13  at  10:27 PM

That’s was awful. Like holy shit that was terrible. There have been a lot of conservatives complaining about how its unfair they can’t say nigger though. Its like up there with lol kfc in the top ten things small minded bigots will say to get liberals bent out of shape about racism.

I would say thanks for the clip because its informative about how much that shit is still acceptable. In contrast I kind of liked that recent mel gibson outburst (while feeling pretty sad for his spouse) because it really illustrates how far people have moved on and how crazy he seems believing the things he does that like what 70 years ago would have been like normal but that clip is just so fucking depressing. Everything seems to be depressing today. fuck

Comment #66: pharmakos  on  08/13  at  10:44 PM

The word “cracker” minimizes white people’s traumatic history of owning human beings. Won’t somebody think of the white people!

Comment #67: snobographer  on  08/13  at  11:29 PM

If it makes you feel any better, there seem to be three types of people in the world:
1. People who think no one should say it.
2. People who think black people can, white people can’t.  No biggie.
3. Racists.

Most Twitter users fall into the first two categories, and a good number of them realize that her use of the n-word is not nearly the most offensive thing she said in that exchange.  Plus, it is fitting that so many people’s reaction was “Who is Dr. Laura?” and they learned all of the awful things about her that have largely slipped under the radar all in one place.  While most of what she said is de rigueur on right-wing radio, most of the other hosts are sensible enough to leave the racial slurs out.  Having it all there together is bound to be instructive to someone.  This has the potential to stick around in people’s minds for awhile as well: some Twitter users have theorized that “Don’t NAACP me” will be the “Don’t tase me, bro” of 2010.

There’s also my fantasy troll call:
Dr. Laura, my husband can be really sexist.  His friends come over and ask me what I am doing out of the kitchen and call women “bitches” regularly.  Since I am so sensitive to sexism, maybe I shouldn’t marry outside of my sex?

Comment #68: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/13  at  11:47 PM

@72

Luckily, since so few of us are able to “think of the white people,” many of them try and make up for the lack of consideration by only thinking about themselves.  Sadly, others of them come here and force us to think of them even if that thinking is accompanied by groans and eye-rolls.

Comment #69: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/13  at  11:49 PM

Black people make up about 12% of the population. How many houses could they possibly have been lent money to buy?

Duh, all of them got like 5 houses apiece. And they were way bigger than those n*****s deserved.

Comment #70: kristin  on  08/13  at  11:56 PM

could we make that an argument for gay marriage? I think it would fly. If guys don’t stop being repugnant assholes and it seems unlikely that’s going to happen (why am I bashing my own gender) women will have to marry each other. But then I think it would fly so its probably a terrible idea. I take what you’re saying on board though. The only good thing about right wing talk show hosts is that they all slip up and tell us what they are really thinking eventually.

wikipedia says she doesn’t have a md or a psychology phd. she is a physiotherapist. How she is a frasier crane is beyond me

On the upside our resident trolls are like a 21st century freakshow (those are gone aren’t they? I hope those are gone). point and laugh people, point and laugh

Comment #71: pharmakos  on  08/14  at  12:06 AM

@76

The only good thing about right wing talk show hosts is that they all slip up and tell us what they are really thinking eventually.

And, with any luck, there is at least one person out there who, the next time Rush or Glenn Beck, whips out “Obama was elected because blacks are racist” or “the NAACP are the real racists” bullshit, will hear Dr. Laura’s string of racial epithets along with it and think for a second.

The most recent trolls just aren’t trying hard enough though.  I understand why he was banned, but I really miss the kid who thought plants reproduced asexually.  The bar has been set, and this lot just can’t compete.

Comment #72: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/14  at  03:21 AM

How about every time a social service is used and there is paperwork, we require a prominent note about how your representative voted. Your unemployment benefits might have been extended and your next check would tell you that your Rep & Senators voted for that extension or that they voted against it and if they’d had their way you’d get $0.

Comment #74: factbased  on  08/14  at  04:01 PM

Arrgh. freelivebroadcast’s post contrbuted about as much as any of John Mckay’s, grumble grumble.

How long should UI be available after the loss of a job?  Indefinitely?  As long as the unemployment rate stays above X percent?
Comment 17—MiddleageLiberal

If you have to say you’re a liberal in your username ...

Anyway, as a 99er, I’d say: after 52 weeks or, say, $15,000 (in NY benefits top out at around $400 a week), you need to actively demonstrate you’re looking for work, not merely assert that you are. Perhaps be required to sign up for a gov’t sponsored job board. This would lessen the problem, which I’m sure exists, of people who “look for work” by scanning the papers once a week for six-figure blue-collar jobs, apply to half a dozen positions they’re in no way qualified for, and call it good, without unduly penalizing the people who legitimately can’t find work. The idea is that benefits should be available indefinitely, but after a year or so the requirements get more stringent and it becomes easier to cut off people who can’t demonstrate they’re trying to no longer need them.

Besides Republicans would spin it into an even bigger victim “us against them” persecuted mythology.
Comment 32—renmiri

Probably right, the story would be “a vengeful and partisan Congress cut off districts represented by Republicans.”

More specifically, is it possible that it is easier to argue for punitive treatment of red states after you have moved from a very red state to a very blue state?
Comment 49—Murrow Fan

Except Amanda’s idea was on the Congressional district level. And she moved from a bluish-purple district, I suspect, to another bluish-purple district: there’s an active food cooperative there and all.

Comment #75: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/15  at  02:02 PM

John McKay: The whole economic melt down is the result of social engineering at F mac and F mae.

And this theory you got off talk-radio explains the housing bubbles in Ireland, the U.K., Spain, Sweden, France, Norway, the Netherlands, Denmark, Italy and Finland how?

Comment #76: W. Kiernan  on  08/15  at  03:12 PM
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