I just love these polls where Americans lie to the pollsters about how accepting they are of gay people.

Actually, GLADD’s survey is exactly in line with the Prop 8 results: a razor-thin majority oppose gay marriage.  That first stat is meaningless, since all but fringers are willing to accept civil unions for gay couples.  C’mon, if the other side was interpreting polling results as fast and loose as this post, y’all would have a field day.

That first stat is meaningless, since all but fringers are willing to accept civil unions for gay couples.

I see it as a meaningful indicator of the discrepancy between codified law and public preference, and in my reading of the post that’s how it was presented, provided we ignore the blustery and poorly thought through throwaway comment at the end - a comment I call bluster because it is directly addressed to an audience that probably isn’t reading Pandagon, and poorly thought through because “the culture war” wrought by hard-line religious conservatives is much broader than restriction of marriage rights, and because (in keeping with the momentary zeitgeist highlighting the ‘institutional conservatism’ of America) the act of “passing amendments,” when successful, is rather difficult to systematically undo or fix - and just because one believes rights will be restored “one day” shouldn’t make us amenable to the present-day systematic prevention of human rights progress (cf. Letter from a Birmingham Jail).

Frankly, I trust that Pam is aware of these issues and was intending for the comment to be a simple rallying/confrontational statement, not a summative “fast and loose” analysis of the cited data.

Infundibulum - The stalk of the pituitary, where it connects to the brain.

The first stat isn’t meaningless at all, considering how recently civil unions were the big scary gay threat to America rather than a fallback position. For a huge majority to support recognition of same-sex couples is a big deal. And most of that majority (two-thirds of it) does support marriage over civil unions!

Hey Mike…I’m ok, just busy busy busy.

That first stat is meaningless, since all but fringers are willing to accept civil unions for gay couples.

That must be why, in 19 of the 29 marriage exclusion amendments passed in the last 12 years also include bans on any other form of relationship recognition. 

Let’s face it, Americans like voting against gay people.  The nation is fundamentally an anti-gay one.

I just love these polls where Americans lie to the pollsters about how accepting they are of gay people.

Since most of the action on these issues will and must occur at the state level, more of these polls need to be conducted at the state level to better document regional differences and provide insight into opportunities for effective local action.

I wonder how many people lie - around where I live (rural midwest) it’s rather an honor for folks to announce in any available public setting one’s opposition to the Dangerous Homosexual Agenda(TM). Folks who live in that environment aren’t inclined to lie.

MAJeff, don’t forget the way they won Prop 8:  by telling outright blatant lies to the electorate about how your child’s gay teacher is going to force him/her to go to her gay wedding and that their church would be forced to marry gay couples (it happened in Massachusetts!  No, you don’t need to read the story, just take our word for it!)  I think I still have the robocalls on my machine, plus I had someone call me personally (asked for me by name!) to try and claim the above.  As Mike said, the Yes on 8 people were way more motivated than our side was, unfortunately, and that’s how you win a proposition.

I keep trying to get our resident trolls to explain how Prop 8’s passing is a moral victory when the only way it won was to bear false witness over and over again, but for some reason they never answer ...

(Plus the “No on 8” people ran a very bad campaign, but that’s a discussion for another day.)

MAJeff, don’t forget the way they won Prop 8:  by telling outright blatant lies to the electorate

And the lies worked. Californians were more than willing to believe bullshit about gay people. They were willing to vote against gay people because it meant their children might be taught that gay people exist, that we are a part of the broader community, that we have families.  The anti-gay lies worked because people are anti-gay enough to believe them.

And the lies worked. Californians were more than willing to believe bullshit about gay people.

Considering that the Yes on 8 people had the footage of the children at their teacher’s (gay) wedding, it was pretty hard for No on 8 to get the real story out, which was that the parents took the children there as a surprise for the teacher on her wedding day.

Does it suck that Americans—not just Californians, but Americans—are still so susceptible to the idea that all gay people are pedophiles that opponents of gay rights just have to juxtapose gay people and children to set the lizard brain off?  Of course.  That, frankly, is the area where the myths really have to be knocked down.  The No on 8 people had plenty of opportunities to try and do that, and they blew chunks.

Maybe my perspective is different because I’m actually in California and saw the campaign close-up, but MikeEss is right:  the Yes on 8 people were more organized and motivated.  All of those marches for gay rights that you saw on TV happened after the election.  Where the hell were all of those people before the election when a march might have done some goddamn good?  People were complacent because the early polling showing Prop 8 would be defeated, and they got caught unprepared by the nastiness that the Yes on 8 people unveiled.

No on 8 was a very, very badly run campaign, and it lost us the election when we didn’t have to.  I’m pretty pissed about that, frankly, because they took my money and flushed it down the toilet.

Let’s face it, Americans like voting against gay people.  The nation is fundamentally an anti-gay one.

I think the opposition is real, but not “fundamental”. If Americans really “fundamentally” hate gays, how then is it that Ellen DeGeneres has such a popular talk-show, that that gay cowboy movie had such wide appeal, etc. etc.? Why aren’t they being forced off the air, or locked up?

I think that, in reality, there’s a hard core of anti-gay sentiment, and a mushy middle of varying degrees of pro- or anti- gayness, and a group of people who are dedicated pro-gay activists. Like lots of other “culture war” things.

thanks, Ms. Kate.  I’m fine, just swamped with work and job hunting.

I think the notion that a society is “fundamentally” anything is pretty suspect. We’re supposed to be fundamentally capitalist, and that one’s probably truer than the “fundamentaly anti-gay”, but there’s some holes in that too.

I think there are two different issues here not being discussed. One, that someone who is gay is so by birth and not by choice. That is the basis upon which the fundies dont have a problem discriminating against LGBTQ individuals. The fundies were the ones who raised such a hissy fit about the Kinsey report in the 1950’s. Because it makes their old Bronze Age book irrelevant for today. Second, there are 1186 FEDERAL and STATE laws which allow discrimination against LGBTQ individuals simply because of their sexual preference. There are still 30 states where you can be fired for being LBGTQ. This is quite simply a civil rights issue. Others personal religious beliefs should not be allowed to dictate public policy. Especially since the verses the fundies use to condemn LGBTQ are cherry picked from the Bronze Age book.  They dont kill people who eat shrimp (Lev 11:9). They dont even think anything of eating the blood and fat of cattle, sheep, or goats (Lev 7:22-27). Nor do they refrain from cutting their hair at the sides of their head (Lev 19:27) or treat aliens in our land as you would treat a native of our land (Lev 19:33-34). The fundies are losing and will continue to do so.

The voters in California, Florida and Arkansas clearly aren’t on the same page as most Americans when it comes to extending rights to gay couples.

California still has civil unions, which puts its voters squarely among most Americans, most Americans who support some sort of recognition, but not full marriage equality.

I was horribly disappointed by the outcome of Prop 8, but California is still way ahead of two-thirds of the states in this country in its protections for gays and lesbians.  And please don’t lump Californians in with Arkansans who screwed over single adoptive parents and neglected/abused/abandoned children in order to stick it to gay people.

Ms. Kate…if you’ve still got my email address, write me.

The voters in California, Florida and Arkansas clearly aren’t on the same page as most Americans when it comes to extending rights to gay couples.

Yes, they are.  Very few states allow second-parent adoption, even if they don’t ban gay and lesbian folks from adopting.  The overwhelming majority of states exclude us from marriage. Nearly half exclude us from any kind of recognition.  In about 35 states, it’s still legal to fire us for being gay.  The voters in California, Florida, Arkansas, and Arizona are exactly like the rest of the country: anti-gay.

I’m a little confused about the fundy response.  Who would commission a poll, if not an organization interested in its outcome?  I mean, should we only trust the polls that come out from the American Apathy Institute now?

These polls are very significant, and very closely mirror what happened in Canada. In the late 90s, same-sex marriage, adoption, etc., were all opposed by a significant majority (70% +). Yes, the anti-side is often more passionate and more organized, but they are fundamentally wrong. People listen to them at first because they yell the loudest, but the more the issue was discussed, the more the gay community and allies challenged the assumption and lies, the more people began to realize that the antis’ arguments didn’t have a moral or legal leg to stand on.

Keep at it, keep challenging people’s beliefs, do not let up because the good fight will eventually be won.

It is very, very sad (for lack of a better word) that it has to be fought at all, and even worse that a jurisdiction allows for majority votes on civil rights. But the good side is going to win, even with all these heart-breaking obstacles, because we are right.

I mean, should we only trust the polls that come out from the American Apathy Institute now?

Survey results: 100% of Americans don’t give a shit

druidbros:

One, that someone who is gay is so by birth and not by choice. That is the basis upon which the fundies dont have a problem discriminating against LGBTQ individuals.

I don’t think that has anything to do with it. If the dumbfuck fundies ever finally realized that if it’s OK to discriminate against homosexuality as a lifestyle choice, then any other lifestyle choice, including Christianity, is by definition also fair game for discrimination, they’ll just come up with another laughably stupid reason to hate on gays.

I also think that a lot of the voters who passed anti-gay laws and amendments didn’t bother to think through the second lines of most of them. When voters are asked if they would deny marriage but allow civil unions, an overwhelming majority say yes, they favor equality and civil unions are just fine. Then, presented with an amendment banning “marriage or any similar union or contract” for same-sex couples, they happily check yes.

There are two things in play there, which is why the drafters of those amendments are so careful to write them that way. First, for most anti-marriage folks, banning gay marriage trumps approving of civil unions. While they may support civil unions, if the only way to ban marriage is to do the package deal, so be it.

I know more than a few people who expressed shock that they had just voted to outlaw civil unions. Hell, even during the run-up to the Wisconsin version of this game, a lot of the vocal supporters of the amendment were out there saying that they supported civil unions but not marriage, even while shilling for an amendment that banned them.

These days it is next to impossible to find an average citizen who opposes same-sex marriage who doesn’t state some version of “but they ought to have some rights, like hospital visits and insurance.” We keep pushing for marriage, and we will get some form of federal civil union before too long.

Hell, even during the run-up to the Wisconsin version of this game, a lot of the vocal supporters of the amendment were out there saying that they supported civil unions but not marriage, even while shilling for an amendment that banned them.

In other words, they were out in public lying.

This poll is stupid and it clearly wasn’t done in the REAL America!

MAJeff:

In other words, they were out in public lying.

Or they were just morons. Sometimes it’s not quite so easy to tell the difference.

Also: in California many who would have voted progressively stayed home, feeling safe in the Obama win (which was also announced before voting ended in California.)

“California is going to Obama anyway, my vote won’t count,” my Chinese accupuncturist said. “But what about the Propositions!” I cried.

I had to educate him on the props: a busy man, I’m still not sure he “bothered” to vote, the props were “confusing.”

Whereas the church-going vote was motivated, the black vote was motivated, the “you’ve scared us about our children!” vote was motivated, the obstinate “There’s going to be gay marriage, if you like it or not!” clip from Gavin Newsome was played over and over and over!

The lying ads were repeated over and over and over and over every FUCKING hour on TV: Prop 8 was losing in the polls until that blizzard of lying ads. If I hadn’t known better, I might have been swayed by their vehemence.

I blame the Mormons, the fuckers who came from Utah and overwhelmed with tens of millions to promote hate.

The “majority” of Californians didn’t support Prop 8, just the majority of those who voted, and those who had been brainwashed in either church or through lying ads.

I heard an otherwise somewhat liberal het man mouthing the mantra, “I think the word marriage should be reserved for that between men and women.”

Until I pointed out, “That’s what bigots say, to cover for their bigotry.” He hadn’t been “thinking” he’d simply been repeating

(Not that he’d ever been married, and yes, I dumped his motherfucking ass, anyway.)

Not to mention that, as Dan Savage pointed out on “The Daily Show,” it wasn’t black or Latino voters who put Prop 8 over the top.  It was old people.  The over-65s.

If you can figure out a way to win over Grandma, you’re home free, because old people vote in disproportionate numbers to their share of the population.

Pam, for the love of all that’s holy….GET OVER IT ALREADY!!!  you guys lost and the voters of those 3 states spoke pretty loud,  marriage is a MAN and WOMAN….even your nutjob state of CA, they agree.  So you can post all these polls and say how most Americans are ok with gay marriage.  Guess what…...it’s not going to happen!!  Most Americans don’t agree with you, put that vote to any state in America and you will loose! and your poll was sponsored by GLAAD….gee, no wonder you got the results you wanted….that’s not biased at all.  Holy crap are you kidding!!!

The voters in California, Florida and Arkansas clearly aren’t on the same page as most Americans when it comes to extending rights to gay couples.

Hey now, some of us are.

cookie,
“Civil rights” is not a zero-sum game and those of us who believe in them for all are willing to play the long game. Voices very much like yours said very much the same thing when it came to women’s sufferage, voting rights, interracial marriage and a whole host of issues. They were wrong and history will prove you wrong, too. It’s just a matter of time, and the bigots and haters and cowards will be just yet another emabarrasing footnote in the big story.

In short, no, we won’t “get over it”. You can’t make us.

Really, Matt? You’re honestly expecting cookie to give a fuck about facts and long-term historical perspective?

Seriously. Cookie still thinks that his radio has a tiny little cover band in it. Arguing with stupid people is like playing chess with a pigeon: it knocks over all the pieces, shits on the board, then runs back to its flock to preen over what a clever-dick it is.

Dana:

And that means the majority supported it; if you are eligible to vote and you don’t vote, then you have just given your consent to whatever decision the people who do vote take.

Thank you, Dana, for providing us with a textbook example of the “confusion between correlation and cause” fallacy.

Your intellectual laziness is not its own justification.

Matt T…..it’s outrageous to me to compare this to civil rights or women’s rights.  You guys have been using that arguement for years and are spinning your wheels.  That’s like comparing apples and oranges.  Keep living in your fantasy world but the cold hard facts are…..America agrees….marriage is a man and woman.  Spin it..flip it anyway you want to try and make you feel better.  If the majority of Americans agreed with you….then guess what….Prop 8 would have failed!

Matt T…..it’s outrageous to me to compare this to civil rights or women’s rights.

It’s outrageous to us that you insist on bandying about the phrase “civil rights” despite the fact that you clearly don’t have the slightest fucking clue what it actually means.

If the majority of Americans agreed with you….then guess what….Prop 8 would have failed!

A) Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

B) I don’t pity the physically handicapped, but I do pity people who consciously and willfully choose to cripple themselves mentally and socially for shamelessly ideological reasons. Your political allegiances are actually forcing you to claim in all seriousness that there can’t possibly be multiple contributing causes to any historical event, or that a cause you might not find ideologically convenient has any demonstrable relevance to the outcome.

.marriage is a man and woman.

So marriage is a person that’s both male and female?

[yeah, no feeding the trolls, I know, but still…]