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Next entry: O’Keefe, his buddies, and their ugly attitudes about violence against women Previous entry: CNN Poll: Majority Don’t Think President Deserves Second Term

Glenn Beck: For and against high life expectancy

Choads

Part of me really doesn’t want to discourage Glenn Beck and Michelle Bachmann from continuing to hit the road and tell their largely elderly constituents that they need to be “weaned off” “government” funded programs like Social Security and Medicare—-the teabaggers may not be the smartest people on the planet, but I’m sure people who begrudge every penny like they do noticed that Social Security and Medicare was paid directly by them from their payroll taxes and therefore the money they’re getting now is their money.  And even if they really are too dumb to see that, they are still nasty, selfish people who may want funding cut to everyone else, but god damn they are keeping theirs.  They’re Real Americans®. They deserve it.  Unlike those “other” folks with shady birth certificates.  I’m just not convinced telling the elderly teabaggers to give up an important income stream or their health care benefits is going to work out well. 

But yesterday, I was combing through Media Matters’ video archive of the past week to find some clips of wingnuts lying about health care reform (this is surprisingly easy to do, though actually listening to this crap is physically painful), and I stopped on this video.

MM flagged it because Beck made the outrageous claim that insuring more people would lower their life expectancy, because people are really dying when they’re living and stuff.  But the health insurance crack doesn’t even begin to touch the levels of crazy deception in this video.  Beck is trying to argue that we need to get rid of Social Security.  (Again, good luck with that.) 

And to do this, he points to the low life expectancies prior to Social Security (59.2 years) and how dramatically it climbed after Social Security was implemented in 1935.  It now stands at 77.5. That’s 18 years longer.  That’s a lot of Christmases with the grandkids.  This is supposed to be Beck’s argument against Social Security?  Because from where I’m sitting, linking life expectancy and Social Security is a great argument for it. 

Beck’s argument is, unsurprisingly, specious.  He’s arguing that rising life expectancies are a bad thing when it comes to Social Security, because the age you started to draw it in 1935 was higher than the actual life expectancy, and so rising life expectancies means it’s going bankrupt.  This game has been played before, so I’m not interested in reinventing the wheel.  But the idea that Social Security was never intended to pay out is a flat-out lie.  To hear Beck tell it, there weren’t many 65-year-olds running around in 1935.  But life expectancy numbers are taken from the population as a whole.  They include babies who die in the cradle, car accident victims, people who die of AIDS at 35, murder victims of 18, people who get cancer in their mid-30s and die, etc.  One reason life expectancy numbers have shot up so dramatically is that the number of people who die young has gone down, in no small part due to better medical care, and other innovations like seat belts and frankly, condoms.  Oh yeah, and vaccines.*  In 1935, if you made it to 60, your chance of making it to 65 were actually pretty fucking good.  They had old people in the 30s, I promise you.  Perhaps you have some family pictures to verify this.  Or you could call your grandparents, though that conversation could be awkward.  “Grandma, when you were a kid, were there old people?  Why do I ask?  Just curious.  Love ya’!”  In fact, the link I provided explains this, saying that while life expectancy overall is 77 years, someone who is 60 now can expect to live to 82. 


Which doesn’t mean that improved health for elderly people isn’t a major factor in increased life expectancy.  Then, as now, most people died old and life expectancy was largely governed by how old old people were when they died.  It’s safe to suggest that the number of years Social Security paid out in the 30s and 40s was shorter than now.  Does this mean Social Security was some dumbfuck idea cooked up by a bunch of stupid liberals with no foresight?

Actually, it means the opposite.  It means Social Security was a wild success.  I’m not demographer or doctor of medicine, but I’m smart enough to realize that a lot of reasons elderly people die way before their time is that they’re poor. They don’t live in healthy conditions, they don’t eat right, they are constantly under stress that weakens their bodies.  And alleviating poverty alone will do a lot to raise life expectancies in the elderly, especially since they are the group of people most likely to live in poverty.  And Social Security is a smashing success in relieving poverty in the elderly.**

Social Security reduces the proportion of elderly people living in poverty from nearly one in two to fewer than one in eight, according to a new study released today of Census data. The study found that in 1997, nearly half of all elderly people — 47.6 percent — had incomes below the poverty line before receipt of Social Security benefits. After receiving Social Security benefits, only 11.9 percent remained poor.

As a result, the study said, Social Security raised out of poverty more than one in every three elderly Americans. The program lifted 11.4 million elderly people above the poverty line.

Without Social Security, the study found, 15.3 million elderly had incomes below the poverty line. After Social Security, only 3.8 million elderly did. Three-fourths of those elderly people who would have been poor without Social Security were lifted from poverty by it.

I got the strong impression from that video that Glenn Beck’s attitude was that people like him should enjoy long lives, but poorer elderly people can basically fuck off and die for all he cares.  I got my grandma, so screw you kind of thinking.  However, I would highly recommend he give up this crusade against longevity in the elderly.  Lowering life expectancy in the elderly would really do a number on the ability of the teabaggers to get enough people to show up to their protests to make the pictures interesting.

*I mean, for fuck’s sake.  The President in 1935 had survived an often-deadly disease that was both really common then and basically non-existent now.
**I can’t believe you need to argue that giving people money makes them less poor.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:32 PM • (49) Comments

Social Security and Medicare are such wildly popular, effective programs that wingnuts have to make up nonsense about how they’re about to go broke.

See in conservative land either a government program doesn’t work, and if it does, well goddamnit it’s too expensive! 

President Eisenhower said that the first party to call outright for the abolition of Social Security would go extinct, and he was probably right.

Comment #1: Ben D.  on  02/17  at  12:50 PM

**I can’t believe you need to argue that giving people money makes them less poor.

Keep in mind that these are the same people who promote “trickle down” economics. They are either stupid or disingenuous.

Comment #2: phil zombi  on  02/17  at  12:56 PM

I liked him better when he was in the Yardbirds.

Comment #3: norbizness  on  02/17  at  01:05 PM

The latter, in most cases.  Especially the leaders.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  01:06 PM

Is his argument really that more of you should die because the government helping you live is bad because government is always bad? Maybe its time to grandpa and grandma out back like old yeller. I suppose that’s why he he was always such a big second amendment guy.

Comment #5: pharmakos  on  02/17  at  01:06 PM

His argument is “BLERGH!  Because I said so!”  But it’s aimed at stopping Social Security.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  01:06 PM

My dad’s argument regarding this isn’t that they should do away w/Social Secirity. Just that they should have raised the age to qualify as life expectancy wnet up. Until HE reached the age to qualify, then it was “gimme, gimme, gimme!”

Comment #7: Mark  on  02/17  at  01:06 PM

There you go, Amanda, using “numbers” and “statistics” and “logic” to make your foolish argument.

Real Americans™ don’t bother with numbers, statistics and logic, because those things all have a liberal bias.  Real Americans™ just know things.  And that’s all they need.  (Glenn Beck, Great American Patriot, just reminds Real Americans™ about what they already know.)

Medicare and Social Security are ultra-Socialist government programs that are against everything the US of A stands for!  That is, unless I’m getting the benefits, or any of my family or friends — then they are essential programs that must not be changed.  As my mother and father said (both of them Real Americans™), “Keep government out of my Medicare and my Social Security!”  I know they believe that from the very bottom of their hearts…

Comment #8: MikeEss  on  02/17  at  01:09 PM

Pelosi should bring Paul Ryan’s budget proposal (which calls for the privatization of Social Security and Medicare) up for a floor vote.  Make each GOP representative go on the record in favor of killing off two of the most popular and successful gov’t programs of all time.

Comment #9: robelanator  on  02/17  at  01:20 PM

Actually, Mark (@7), this is the thing that should be done to control costs.  It is what has been done.  The age for full benefits for my mother is 65 (next year), for me it will be 67 (if it doesn’t get revised again before I reach it; yeah, not holding my breath), for my children it will likely be 69 or 70 or even older. 
If life expectancies are going up but retirement ages stay static, the break even is messed up.  If people live longer, they need to earn longer.  The income cap needs to go up, too.  The whole thing really should be set to the cost of living for income cap and some formula based on current longevity for when benefits start.

Comment #10: helen w. h.  on  02/17  at  01:23 PM

Funny how many teabaggers are fearful of their entitlements and complaining about no cost of living increases for a year or two.  Never mind that those of us who pay their fucking bills and have put more into the system than any generation ever has aren’t getting any extra money to spend, either!

Comment #11: Ms Kate  on  02/17  at  01:41 PM

Mark@7: Thus it is socialism when inner-city blacks receive welfare checks for not working, but good policy when white farmers receive farm subsidy checks for leaving fields fallow.

Note: I’m not against farm subsidies per se—just the hypocrisy of that stance.  In fact, I think the Democrats are missing the boat “big time” by not stepping up with a set of programs to alleviate rural problems such as poverty, depopulation, dependence of small towns on single companies, closure of locally-owned businesses, agricultural pollution, and the near impossibility of running a small farm at a profit.

Comment #12: xebecs  on  02/17  at  01:52 PM

Yep, great post!  This is their new narrative, I have already started seeing it from con posters on the huffpo.  I couldn’t believe they were serious, are they really expecting to win over people by saying, hey, you fucks are living too long?  Why yes they are!  So let’s wish them good luck with that and pray they get together with Paul Ryan and go on a long cross country tour!

Comment #13: JennyLI  on  02/17  at  01:55 PM

In a way I get the Tea Party sentiment. Government is (often) a conspiracy against the people, or at least that’s how it worked out and not just in the US.  And i get why they are so into it, talking to people, feeling motivated and feeling like you are making a difference is enjoyable. Its just such a pity they are so ignorant. But then I get the why of that too. The purpose of having bills so hefty you could bludgeon someone with them isn’t just because things are complicated, it is to conceal what’s happening and disinterest the populace. Crazy conspiracies are more fun than trying to decipher what’s going on. They have to know on some level that they don’t really get what’s going on but the government is going to do whatever the government wants anyway so why not make signs and turn up to howl at whatever sorry asshole that has been sent to the townhall. And if some other politician provides them with hot tar (talking points) to help with the tar and feathering so what.

Comment #14: pharmakos  on  02/17  at  02:03 PM

If life expectancies are going up but retirement ages stay static, the break even is messed up.  If people live longer, they need to earn longer.  The income cap needs to go up, too.  The whole thing really should be set to the cost of living for income cap and some formula based on current longevity for when benefits start.

I agree with this, with the caveat that if you become too disabled to work anytime after the age of 60, you should instantly and easily qualify for full lifetime Social Security benefits as if you had just turned 65 (or 67, whatever.) The fact that *most* people live longer and can therefore retire later doesn’t mean that some people don’t need to retire younger. Getting Social Security disability when you are young involves jumping through amazing hoops, to prove your disability and get processed through the system; I think there needs to be a streamlined procedure for the elderly on the grounds that if you’re 61 and you say you’re disabled, chances are, you really are. Just give them the benefit of the doubt, and reduce their benefits later if you find out after the fact they were lying.

In fact I’ll go a step farther. You can retire at any time after age 60, but your benefits will depend only on the amount you have made so far. So your lifetime benefits will increase every year you stay in the workforce.

Also, remove the income cap completely. If you make $700,000, you pay into the system on all of that money. Your return on that, however, should grow proportionately smaller the more you made (but at no point reach 0%), so perhaps if you made $700K a year, you get back your full amount on $100K, 80% of that on the next $100K, 60% on the next $100, 40% on the next $100, and 20% on everything after that. So it is still to your benefit to pay into the system the more money you make, it just becomes less and less of a benefit proportionately.

And if you are terminated at any time between 60 and 67, you get your full Social Security benefits for the money you made in your life up until then, but the business that fired you must pay your Social Security taxes, based on the amount you were making when you were fired, up until you are hired again or hit retirement age. This is because of ageism—elderly people who are fired cannot get new jobs, and often live in poverty for a few years, unemployed and unemployable, until they hit retirement age. Give the elderly a buffer for retiring early if they are fired close to retirement age, and penalize businesses for firing them by making them pay Social Security tax for the employee *anyway* so they don’t get the brilliant idea of firing all their 60-year-olds on the grounds that Uncle Sam will pick up the tab.

Comment #15: Alara J Rogers  on  02/17  at  02:09 PM

**I can’t believe you need to argue that giving people money makes them less poor.

BECAUSE THEN THEY LOSE THEIR WORK ETHIC AND THEY BECOME SLAVES TO THE STATE BLAH BLAH FUCKING BLAH
/<strike>wingnut</strike> Knuterockne, Dipshit Troll

Real Americans™ don’t bother with numbers, statistics and logic, because those things all have a liberal bias.  Real Americans™ just know things.

Yep! Edumacayshun is a trick by Satan to get you to doubt <strike>what Pastor Cletus told you</strike> what’s in yer heart! Remember, a True Patriot™ never thinks too hard, because a curious mind is the devil’s playground!

Oh, and keep yer damned gubmint hands off MY Medicaid!

Comment #16: Nobody in Particular  on  02/17  at  02:35 PM

Nobody in Particular—You mean Medicare.  Medicaid is the program to help poor people, below the poverty line, with medical care.  Medicaid is more of that “spending my money on poor people” that they hate so much.  I realize the names are close and they come from the same enabling legislation but they cover too different populations (although some people are still so poor even with Social Security that they need Medicaid to pay medical bills).

Comment #17: PurpleGirl  on  02/17  at  02:40 PM

Funniest post in a while. Thanks

Comment #18: JonE  on  02/17  at  02:46 PM

Alara @ 15, all good points.  I was only speaking to the basic structure as it applies to retirees, not as applied to those who are disabled, which is much more detailed and has its own set of issues. 
Also, I would say for those approaching retirement age who are fired or downsized without cause, not just those who are fired.  I’m sorry, but people who are fired for threatening co-workers, refusing to do their jobs (unless said jobs are completely revamped to be unrecognizable), etc. should not be rewarded by being able to get full benefits; benefits as per their current pay-in, not scaled to full until they reach the appropriate age, alright, perhaps.

Comment #19: helen w. h.  on  02/17  at  02:48 PM

If you retire early, say 62, you get about 20% less in Social Security.  Once you reach what would have been your regular age to retire, say 66, you do not get increased.  That reduction for early retirement is a lifetime reduction. In the current economic crisis I do not see people being able to retire early. And to apply for disability doesn’t help either because those benefits are also reduced compared to regular Social Security.  As it stands, if you are able to work beyond your retirement age, you do get an enhanced benefit. If you work til 70 you get about 20% more..

Comment #20: PurpleGirl  on  02/17  at  03:04 PM

If I really wanted to mess with Beck’s head, I’d mention my dozen times great grandfather, who lived to be 112 (though his family claimed he was 117) and died in the early 1800’s, at a time when life expectancy was around 35.

Comment #21: Blue Jean  on  02/17  at  03:26 PM

Ooops!  I should have said 1700’s, not 1800’s.  My bad.

Comment #22: Blue Jean  on  02/17  at  03:27 PM

Does anyone remember when wingnuts were declaring that health care reform would make the government coerce the elderly into suicide?  Remember the made up death panels?  So now that a government program is helping people live longer, that’s bad too.  Basically, whether the government kills people or saves them, it’s bad simply because it’s the government.  There’s nothing that the federal government could do to ever be right, in the Republican view.

Comment #23: bananacat  on  02/17  at  03:28 PM

Note: I’m not against farm subsidies per se—just the hypocrisy of that stance.  In fact, I think the Democrats are missing the boat “big time” by not stepping up with a set of programs to alleviate rural problems such as poverty, depopulation, dependence of small towns on single companies, closure of locally-owned businesses, agricultural pollution, and the near impossibility of running a small farm at a profit.
Comment #12: xebecs on 02/17 at 11:52 AM

You have just described the Farm Democrats:

The Democratic–Farmer–Labor Party today is the Minnesota arm of the national Democratic Party, the oldest political party in the world. Its history is distinctive, however, because it also has its roots in third-party protest movements. The DFL came into being in its modern form when the Minnesota Democratic and Farmer–Labor parties merged in April 1944.

From their platform:

Agriculture
The family farm is the keystone of our society and must be preserved.
We Support:
• Preservation and protection of farmland through soil conservation and sound sustainable ecological practices.
• The economic well-being of rural communities through the preservation
of small business and family farms and fair prices for agricultural products.
• Access to farm credit at reasonable terms and interest rates, including temporary relief during economic emergencies.
• Educational research and development programs, including sustainable
agriculture.
• Cooperative and marketing systems structured for the financial security
of producers and improvement of products.
• Use of agricultural surpluses to alleviate hunger in the United States and all other nations.

Comment #24: oldfeminist  on  02/17  at  03:30 PM

Knuterockne, the joke is on you. See, no one cared enough about your comment to refute it because it was meaningless. The reputation of the group providing the video does not affect any part of this conversation. The sentence regarding the media matters comment could have been left out and the post would not lose anything. Well, except troll bait, which you found.

Comment #25: Ursula  on  02/17  at  03:54 PM

Y’know how Beck does that thing where he tells people that they should invest in gold, and hello, he’s got a major advertiser that sells gold?

It’s of-a-piece with the above-referenced shtick. Telling The Dumbest People in America™ (that’s his audience, folks [1]) that SS won’t (or shouldn’t) come through for them is probably a lead-up to telling them they should invest in whatever boiler-room scam happens to run commercials on his show.

________
[1] Also, Amanda’s trolls.

Comment #26: Molly, NYC  on  02/17  at  04:03 PM

Shorter Knute: Repeating exactly what conservatives say word for word is deception.  Why?  Because BLERGH I SAID SO.

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  04:19 PM

Knuterockne, you’re going to have to bring a better game if you want anyone to do more than skip over your asinine comments and go on.

Two short sentences, one referring to Media Matters? Media Matters, which is treated by wingnuts like the ACORN of the Internet?  That just makes it too easy to dismiss.  Same would be true for mentions of Al Gore, Michael Moore, and anything stating or implying Obama isn’t a US citizen or is the Most Leftwing President Evah!  You might as well be babbling about the Trilateral Commission, The Bilderbergers, or the Bohemian Grove.  Or the aliens who took you hostage on their saucer and probed you.

If you want to make a good argument, and if you have the intellectual capacity to make a good argument, fire away.  But some pointless comment of the sort we can find on any wingnut blog?  Not good enough…

Comment #28: MikeEss  on  02/17  at  04:21 PM

In fairness the gold thing is pretty common republican shtick. At least with the libertarians.

Comment #29: pharmakos  on  02/17  at  04:42 PM

Hey Amanda, I have one for you.  A right-winger once suggested that abortions should be included in the life expectancy calculation and that it would be a lot lower because of it, I kid you not.  He didn’t include miscarriages and stillbirths either, so he clearly had an anti-choice agenda.

Comment #30: Albert Cirrus  on  02/17  at  05:00 PM

Knuterockne:

Don’t argue the point that Media Matters skews its evidence and therefore is an unreliable news source, as is Glenn Beck. Attack your opponent with insults.

Pretty much by definition, blind assertions aren’t arguments and don’t require rebuttal, especially when they’re completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

When the sum total of your contribution to the discussion is “this post is stupid because oh look a pony,” you don’t get to complain when no one takes you seriously.

Comment #31: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  02/17  at  05:31 PM

A right-winger once suggested that abortions should be included in the life expectancy calculation and that it would be a lot lower because of it, I kid you not.  He didn’t include miscarriages and stillbirths either, so he clearly had an anti-choice agenda.

 

Some serious fun could be had with this.  Include miscarriages & all the 50%-plus of fertilized eggs rejected for pregnancy, point out that God is bringing down life expectancy and watch the wingnut heads explode.

Comment #32: Sour Kraut  on  02/17  at  05:32 PM

Amanda @ 29:

No, it’s not just because someone says so, it’s because reality has a well-known liberal bias. Every one of those photon and electrons was chuckling to its little pinko neighbors as it transmitted and recorded Beck’s codswallop.

Comment #33: paul  on  02/17  at  05:34 PM

MikeEss:

Media Matters, which is treated by wingnuts like the ACORN of the Internet?

That’s completely beside the point. Glenn Beck made the argument with his very own personal mouth, in a video taken from his very own personal television show. Media Matters just linked the video, so it matters not in the slightest how reputable they are or allegedly are not. They’re just a red herring that Knute is trying to use to deflect attention away from the fact that Glenn Beck thinks Social Security is evil because there is such a thing as aging.

So Knute, unless you have proof that the video included above was faked by Media Matters, you need to shut the fuck up and go away.

Comment #34: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  02/17  at  05:40 PM

A right-winger once suggested that abortions should be included in the life expectancy calculation and that it would be a lot lower because of it, I kid you not.  He didn’t include miscarriages and stillbirths either, so he clearly had an anti-choice agenda.

How would this even work mathematically?  Age starts ticking when we’re born.  Would embryos be calculated as a negative age?  What about leftover embryos from IVF?  If one is stored for several years and then destroyed, would it be considered several years old?  What about when one is stored for several years, implanted, and results in a live birth?  Would that newborn actually be considered several years old?  And should premature babies not get to start counting until 40 weeks after conception, even after they’re born?

Comment #35: bananacat  on  02/17  at  05:51 PM

You would probably add nine months to everyone’s age and set conception as the new zero. I have no idea about IVF but to go all sci fi maybe it would be like cryogenic sleep on a long space voyage. Are you 57 or 28?

Comment #36: pharmakos  on  02/17  at  05:59 PM

Dan, I’m not questioning the validity of Media Matter for America.  In general, I’ve found them to be accurate and useful.

I was comparing them to ACORN because any wingnut blowhard who has their bullshit exposed thinks that Media Matters made it up, started the controversy, blew it out of proportion, or something, and it must have been George Soros who personally targeted them for destruction — which proves that they are really Courageous and Patriotic Real Americans™ bravely fighting the Socialist Kenyan Hordes to bring America back on track.

Of course, all that is just Reichwing projection, just like everything else…

Comment #37: MikeEss  on  02/17  at  06:02 PM

You want consistancy and logic, catgirl.  Don’t you know those are evil?

Comment #38: helen w. h.  on  02/17  at  06:03 PM

This is just a classic example of how once people of the conservative persuasion get power or wealth they immediately assume that power and wealth is limited and should be hoarded.  They’re living in a mercantile world where they think the pie doesn’t grow so giving away free money to the old and poor is cutting into their possible slice of the pie.  Honestly, it is utterly disgusting to see Glenn Beck talk, let alone try to tell the world Social Security is the social ill.

I think the daily show should just devote fridays to making Glenn Beck look like the fool he is.  Just compile the week’s clips and watch him contradict himself for 22 minutes.  It would garner great ratings for sure.

Comment #39: Xeranar  on  02/17  at  06:12 PM

Albert, I’m for it, if we include all ejaculation that don’t lead to pregnancy in that calculation.  Because I believe orgasms are murder.

Comment #40: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  06:43 PM

every sperm is sacred

Comment #41: pharmakos  on  02/17  at  06:58 PM

Because I believe orgasms are murder.

Why are you typing on a keybooard when you could be in bed making potential babies?  Blogging is abortion!

Comment #42: Sour Kraut  on  02/17  at  07:25 PM

Sour Kraut FTW!

Comment #43: zarza  on  02/17  at  08:47 PM

It ain’t called the little death for nuttin.

Comment #44: paul  on  02/17  at  09:46 PM

Little death?  Millions of sperm die every time!

Comment #45: Albert Cirrus  on  02/18  at  01:17 AM

My great-grandfather Lewis (a union-organizer for his second-cousin John L. Lewis, who basically created the AFL-CIO) died at 94 in about 1954, but only then because he was repairing the roof of his house when it began sleeting and he died of pneumonia.

Which is why my Grandmother Brown was pissed off when she began her decline at only 88 in early 1990s, in her family that was young to go.

My uncle Bill, her son, died in his early ‘70s—but only because his HMO killed him (refused all treatment for easily treatable prostate cancer, until he saved them the cost and died young.)

My father is now 86 and in somewhat declining health—so in my family, on that side, in any case, we’re dying earlier than the early days of Social Security pay offs.

Comment #46: judybrowni  on  02/18  at  03:06 AM

I did have this conversation with my grandmother Avenger one time, she told me she never knew her grandparents as they died in their 40s.

OTOH, my great-grand, her mother, lived to be the oldest person in her county in North Texas, and Professor Avenger, is still diving at the age of 78, he hasn’t had to switch to pure O2 as Cousteau did in his last years yet grin

So it’s genetics, environment, and that elusive thing we call luck.

Comment #47: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/18  at  02:28 PM
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