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God, who doesn’t return your phone calls

Religion

It’s weird how PZ’s prank with the communion wafer is really creating a moment of reckoning out there, but I’m going to chalk that up to the summer news cycle.  There was part of this heartfelt and moving post by Stephen at Cogitamus that made me realize that there’s more to be said on my metaphor of the relationship between church/religion/“god” and the believers as that between a man drunk on male privilege and a woman who puts up with it.  It was this:

The only way to portray him so is to take seriously the claims American Christian Fundamentalists make about the Bible:  that it was written merely as an account of the history of the world from the first day.  I simply see no reason why I should trust their interpretation, when the better one is that the Bible is, from Genesis to Revelation, a theological treatise about the nature of God and humanity.  Every story, whether we can connect it to a historical event or not, should be read in this light.  And when read with this insight into the priorities of ancient Hebrews and Christians, we read of a far different God than the one which delights in slaughter of innocent men and women, the one which is always looking for a reason to get pissed off and punish us.


I don’t see why the fundie interpretation is less valid than the more moral-by-modern standards liberal one, not that I’m not grateful for liberal Christians.  That said, I’m well aware that the Christian tradition is that Jesus was a new era, one focused on kindness and gentleness.  So, really, focusing on Yahweh The Smiting Machine—-who was probably done in as much by the fact that you could record events as they happened, making the weird stories less plausible as anything else—-is unfair.  And I’m not questioning whether or not it’s good to have a religion that at minimum pays lip service to the idea of peace, and has actual branches that really do practice it.  It’s a giant step in the right direction, by my measures. 

That said, the kinder, gentler Christian god is still well-likened to a man drunk on male privilege.  He’s not the guy who hits you anymore, no.  Now he’s the guy that doesn’t call you and toys with your emotions. 

Many more of us stalwart strong women have been through this game than we’d like to admit, but by admitting that I’ve been the victim of someone else’s ego trip, I will say that it pushed me towards a more feminist mindset and really woke me up to how sexism is alive and well today.  With that caveat out of the way, let me describe the power trip.  You’re dating a guy who is full of assurances that he thinks you’re the bees knees, the best thing that ever happened, and sexy as hell to boot.  But.  He doesn’t call when he says he will.  He “forgets” dates, or runs late, sometimes so obnoxiously late that you were hopping the shower to forlornly wash off your perfume and make-up when he finally knocks on the door.  He comes up with hollow excuses not to have sleepovers all the time.  He’s disdainful of your interests.  When you’re feeling completely unloved and unwanted, and you confront him on it, he tells you that you have to believe that he really does love you and want you.  And this, I think, is similar to the way believers are asked to have faith in a god who doesn’t deign to show himself or return phone calls. 

So why do you stay with the guy who doesn’t call when he said he would?  In part, because when it’s good, it’s really good, and you cling to those few and far between moments when he returned your affections eagerly, when you laid around eating ice cream and giggling and it was easy and not riddled with doubt and recriminations.  But mostly you do it because you’re afraid.  You’re afraid to quit believing.  You’re afraid that if you say, out loud, “He doesn’t really love me.  He plays with my affections because he gets off on the power he has over me,” then you’ll turn into That Woman.  The cat lady.  The perpetually single.  The unloved, never invited to parties.  Similar, really, to the bitter atheist who doesn’t enjoy life or have a moral center. 

If you’re lucky, you discover feminism and a context for the direct oppression you’re receiving at the hands of Sir Asshole, and you can dump him in a fit of self-righteous feminist anger and move straight into living your life how you see fit, instead of playing patsy to some dude for the honor of saying you have a boyfriend.  More likely, the sheer amounts of evidence against your faith in his love for you pile up and you just let go of believing.  And then, Disco Ball willing, you realize that being the single cat lady wasn’t as bad as everyone said it was, and that roses still smell sweet and sex still feels good.  And that abandoning the passive dependence on men doesn’t mean the end of love in your life. 

When you’re being told to believe in love with poor to no evidence that it exists, there are two ways you can be strung along.  There’s the more intellectual coping strategy—-you decide that love is a value unto itself, whether or not it’s returned.  Think Anna in “The Third Man”, who has a sort of pure love for Harry Lime that’s unsullied by his misuse of her, because she’s above such things.  Or, in the more common scenario, you’re occasionally fed reasons for hope by the man who’s using you, just enough to keep you hanging in.  He calls on time.  He shows up on time with flowers.  He stays overnight once in awhile and showers you with kisses.  The Catholic Church, with its regular updating of miracles, is well aware of this technique to keep people’s hope alive. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 02:20 PM • (180) Comments

There is a Kierkegaard quote that would be apropos, but without it to hand I’ll just wave at Fear and Trembling.

Comment #1: Flippanter  on  07/30  at  02:34 PM

Stephen’s article reminds me of the REAL Christians don’t do this/act like this? position, except it’s coming from the secular-friendly side of the debate.  Non-starter.

Comment #2: deep6  on  07/30  at  02:48 PM

minus the question mark . . .

Comment #3: deep6  on  07/30  at  02:49 PM

I don’t see why the fundie interpretation is less valid than the more moral-by-modern standards liberal one, not that I’m not grateful for liberal Christians.

Because it’s by far the non-dominant one.

This is like asking why the Valerie Solanas interpretation that men are simply subhuman     is less valid than   the more liberal feminist model of patriarchal social systems.

Only a few crazies really think that all men should be rounded up , enslaved, and used only for reproductive purposes by a global matriarchy.  Most feminists think that men and women are fundamentally equal and deserve equal status, but criticize the gendered ways that society and culture are arranged under patriarchy.

Only the assholes judge all feminists by the few crazies they may have heard of.      While fundamentalist Christians are arguable far more powerful (and a lot louder) than Valerie Solanas ever was, they represent a similarly extreme fringe.  I don’t say this as an apology for liberal Christians (I can barely stomach them myself), but simply as a truism.  Hate on Christianity if you want, but it’s pretty weak to simply reduce it to its fringiest most ignorant wingnuttery.

Comment #4: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  02:52 PM

Hmm.  I predict either a 200+ comment brawl or a tiny less-than-50-comments blip.  It’s got all the elements:

1.  Reference to Catholics.
2.  Reference to liberal Christians.
3.  Reference to Nice Guys (tm).

Comment #5: KL  on  07/30  at  02:54 PM

I maintain that the not dumping the looser when you should also has a lot to do with momentarily forgetting what life is/could be like without him, just straight up not being able to imagine it.  The analogy holds for religion.

Comment #6: rowmyboat  on  07/30  at  03:05 PM

Oh, and btw I think the entire rest of the post is stop the fuck on. 

It’s also causing me to mentally reevaluate all the relationships I’ve had where the dude (why is it always a dude?) insist that they are definitely crazy about me, except, you know, every single one of their actions work to refute that.

I’d also guess that this sort of interaction is the main reason that books like He’s Just Not That Into You. do well.

Someone should write a He’s Just Not That Into You book for Christians.

Comment #7: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  03:09 PM

spot.  spot the fuck on. 

ugh.

Comment #8: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  03:10 PM

Even the liberal, modern Christians who gravitate towards Jesus as a loving DFH concerned with peace and social justice should still have to account for the fact that a) the Trinity implies that Jesus *is* God, in a literal sense, so He can’t totally disassociate Himself from Himself (i.e. the cranky old psycho O.T. Yahweh), and b) The Book of Revelation lays out in nice gory detail how that nice young peacenik Jesus/God is coming back, Uzi a-blazin’, to lay waste to what remains of the world and His Children in a most unloving and un-hippielike fashion.

Really, AFAICS the most direct interpretation of the New Testament, with Revelation as its denouement, is that they Peace-and-love stuff is just a clever way to hold down the infidels until Jesus/God can come back and take care of them properly. Kill ‘em with kindness, but only until <strike>Daddy</strike>God gets home to kill ‘em with Fire and Brimstone…

Comment #9: Joe Bleau  on  07/30  at  03:12 PM

Only the assholes judge all feminists by the few crazies they may have heard of.  While fundamentalist Christians are arguable far more powerful (and a lot louder) than Valerie Solanas ever was, they represent a similarly extreme fringe.  I don’t say this as an apology for liberal Christians (I can barely stomach them myself), but simply as a truism.  Hate on Christianity if you want, but it’s pretty weak to simply reduce it to its fringiest most ignorant wingnuttery.

The problem is that liberal Christians don’t necessarily swallow the Valerie Solanas-style Christian viewpoint, but they do enable it.  Whenever a vote comes up on an issue that is “pro-life”, they rally to the cause of future dead babies when the crime is “partial birth abortion” or under aged use of contraception or reckless distribution of anti-abstinence condom-wrapped bananas.  They are more willing to buy into the bullshit and so - like innocent citizens trapped in the Matrix - they suddenly morph into an army of militant Agent Smiths after the right buttons are pressed.

The GOP can shout about how their candidates are “compassionate conservatives” while whispering about how the opposition is a “secret Muslim”, and suddenly the liberal Christian isn’t voting so liberal anymore.

Comment #10: Zifnab25  on  07/30  at  03:13 PM

Because it’s by far the non-dominant one.

I don’t accept the idea that majority vote makes an idea more right.  It might, at best, make it more palatable.

This is like asking why the Valerie Solanas interpretation that men are simply subhuman is less valid than the more liberal feminist model of patriarchal social systems.

Or, a more simple, it’s like asking why the idea that women are equal is less valid than saying they’re lesser, which is also the dominant and majority view in our sexist society.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/30  at  03:14 PM

Also, I’d be more willing to apologize for all the asshole men that string a girl along for a few free rides, if I hadn’t spent days and weeks trying to romance girls who inevitably come back and announce they really just want to be friends.

I’ve been the asshole before, but only after I’ve been the “friend” enough times to drive me nuts.  Years of high school and college dating and flirting and find out the difference between what girls say they want and what actually works are the crucibles that turn nice guys into massive pricks.

Comment #12: Zifnab25  on  07/30  at  03:23 PM

>>The problem is that liberal Christians don’t necessarily swallow the Valerie Solanas-style Christian viewpoint, but they do enable it.  Whenever a vote comes up on an issue that is “pro-life”, they rally to the cause of future dead babies…The GOP can shout about how their candidates are “compassionate conservatives” while whispering about how the opposition is a “secret Muslim”, and suddenly the liberal Christian isn’t voting so liberal anymore.


Actually, some of us liberal Christians are actually liberal.  Like, pro-choice, voting-for-Obama, antiwar, environmentally concerned, feminist liberal (this is not just me, it’s most of my Episcopal, urban-center congregation.)  I’m not claiming we’re the majority out of all Christianity, but this portrayal of ‘liberal Christianity’ is pretty much a strawman.

Comment #13: emkay  on  07/30  at  03:26 PM

Well, I have a theory on the Bible, which I do think that the liberal view IS a bit more valid. I think the individual would go even further in the right direction, but it’s the language we use that holds us back.

In any case, if one looks at the standard history of such stories, the Bible kinda fits in with the rest of them. It’s a compilation of oral tradition, a lot of which was spread from generation to generation. It’s why you see similar elements in all these classical texts. And back then, things that were unexplained, or things that were done by the powers that be were often attributed to divine force.

So if one looks at it from this pov, it actually makes a lot more sense than the fundie view, so no, I don’t think they’re equally invalid.

Comment #14: Karmakin  on  07/30  at  03:33 PM

In any case, if one looks at the standard history of such stories, the Bible kinda fits in with the rest of them. It’s a compilation of oral tradition, a lot of which was spread from generation to generation. It’s why you see similar elements in all these classical texts. And back then, things that were unexplained, or things that were done by the powers that be were often attributed to divine force.

There’s a book—The Bible Unearthed I believe—that argues that pretty much all of the Old Testament through the story of Josiah is just that, a collection of legends and myths meant to provide an emerging country with a sense of shared history. It’s a national mythos, like the Arthur legends or the Iliad or the Eddas.

Comment #15: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  07/30  at  03:41 PM

I’m not claiming we’re the majority out of all Christianity, but this portrayal of ‘liberal Christianity’ is pretty much a strawman.

http://people-press.org/commentary/?analysisid=103

If you define down “liberal Christians” to people who vote yellow dog Democrat, then I suppose that is true.  But the target here is swing voters, and Bush took a commanding lead of swing voters with religious affiliations. 

Compare that with McCain’s Evangelical problem
http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=322
and you can see how religious liberals are attracted as much by the allure of faith as of political ideology.  McCain has serious religious street cred issues that Obama does not, and people notice.  They’ll be willing to vote for someone who says the right mantras, even if they don’t practice what they preach (which GW most certainly did not).

Are you, personally, as a liberal Christian going to wake up one morning and vote Republican because Rick Santorum informed you of the dangers of box turtle marriage?  I would hope not.  But that middle-of-the-road swing vote exists.  Many in that pool would classify themselves as “liberal” but still consider their religion a serious factor in their voting decisions.  And those are the people most susceptible to GOP bullshit.

Comment #16: Zifnab25  on  07/30  at  03:43 PM

Or, a more simple, it’s like asking why the idea that women are equal is less valid than saying they’re lesser, which is also the dominant and majority view in our sexist society.

Well if we were discussing different societies around the world, or different possible social models, yes, you’d be right.  You would have to admit that 21st Century American Culture is sexist, even though a comparatively small number of members of the culture were not, or wanted to change that.  But if we’re discussing feminism, then yeah, the fact that most feminists think X is a good reason to think that X is a more valid understanding of what feminism is about than some other fringey belief that few feminists actually hold.

Comment #17: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  03:46 PM

Peace-and-love stuff is just a clever way to hold down the infidels until Jesus/God can come back and take care of them properly. Kill ‘em with kindness, but only until DaddyGod gets home to kill ‘em with Fire and Brimstone.

Sometimes I feel like the Jesus presented in your typical Sunday school environment is not The Real Jesus (TM); that the real Jesus came along and tried to overturn all of the existing religious/societal structures and rules and replace them with truly loving and fair structures and rules; and that he was murdered by “the man” because of this. Of course, the ever-existing human power constructs immediately went back to business as usual, co-opting some of this new “Jesus talk” so that they could continue the enslavement of the humans under their power.

Then again, at other times I feel like the whole ball of wax of just a prettily disguised turd ...

Comment #18: Stephen  on  07/30  at  03:47 PM

“a) the Trinity implies that Jesus *is* God, in a literal sense, so He can’t totally disassociate Himself from Himself (i.e. the cranky old psycho O.T. Yahweh)”

BTW, which part of the Trinity is the cracker?  I’ve always wondered about that…

Comment #19: MikeEss  on  07/30  at  03:50 PM

That’s great, Zif.  I’m glad you’re maintaining the belief that nothing is ever a man’s fault.  Sheesh.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/30  at  03:56 PM

he Book of Revelation lays out in nice gory detail how that nice young peacenik Jesus/God is coming back, Uzi a-blazin’, to lay waste to what remains of the world and His Children in a most unloving and un-hippielike fashion.

Nope.  Revelation is apocalyptic, part of a well-established literary tradition with very specific rules on how to interpret it.  The way the Left Behind crowd views it would be incomprehensible to the 2nd-4th century Christians who decided to include it in their canon.  Revelation literally says nothing about the way Christianity expects the world to end - in fact, there is no reason for Christians to believe that this world will ever end except as the result of a supernova or other natural cataclysm.

It’s a national mythos, like the Arthur legends or the Iliad or the Eddas.

That’s exactly right.  Obviously considering it sacred scripture complicates it, but that assessment is really good.

Amanda, I really don’t want to admit how close to home your analysis is.  I don’t know of a progressive Christian who doesn’t struggle with exactly what you describe.  Including me, dammit.

Comment #21: Stephen  on  07/30  at  03:57 PM

The Book of Revelation lays out in nice gory detail how that nice young peacenik Jesus/God is coming back, Uzi a-blazin’, to lay waste to what remains of the world and His Children in a most unloving and un-hippielike fashion.

Revelation as prediction of actual future events is NOT the dominant theological understanding.  I believe the general consensus among non-heretics and non-imbeciles is thati it was meant as a critique of the Roman Empire.  Everything it “foretells” is quite handily symbolic of various aspects of then-contemporary Rome, and was pretty easily squared away more than 1500 years ago. 

Revelation as a literal prediction of imminent future events is an EXTREMELY fringey Christian belief.  It’s hard to believe considering all the credence the media gives said fringers, but it’s very, very true.

Of course, saying “well it’s the extreme fringe” doesn’t make things any better.  But you can’t criticize all of Christianity by criticizing that belief, any more than you can criticize all of feminism by calling out some of the ideas on the extreme fringe of feminism.

Comment #22: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  03:58 PM

Catholic view of bible:

1)  What we call the OT—the past, the history of the Israelite religion (which is not Judaism), to be read very much metaphorically
2)  NT stories of Christ, who is the son, etc., to be read more literally but still, keeping in mind that there is hefty symbolism, and that historical context and linguistics are important to a deep understanding
3)  The apocrypha (i.e., Revelations).  Exactly that.  Apocryphal literature, meaning literature that was false written in a coded style, particulary to protest the oppression under Nero.

American Catholic views on politics:  1) majority democrat, 2) majority pro-choice, 3) majority pro-contraception.

Why non-fundamentalist view of the bible is a better view—-because it considers the linguistics and historical context of the bible, and recognizes contradictions.  I.e., there are TWO creation stories, seven days, and “in the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth . . . male and female he created them (simultaneous creation of men and women, none of this Adam’s rib’s nonsense).”

Do people, including liberal Christians, still use their religious beliefs as some sort of smitey-sword that gets them out of tricky spots in arguments?  Sure ‘nuff.  But on the other hand, so do people who aren’t religious.  Logical fallacies and appeals to authority ain’t the sole provenance of the “godly.”

Comment #23: Ismone  on  07/30  at  03:58 PM

The son.  Last supper/this is my body . . .

Comment #24: Ismone  on  07/30  at  04:00 PM

Only the assholes judge all feminists by the few crazies they may have heard of.  While fundamentalist Christians are arguable far more powerful (and a lot louder) than Valerie Solanas ever was, they represent a similarly extreme fringe.

Except, um, they aren’t. I know it makes people in America feel good, but sad to say, Americans need to get it through our heads that in reality, the actual majority of the world’s fundies don’t live in Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado or Vatican city. They live all over the world, in places where a mere rumor that the Virgin Mary was seen in a rotted tree can deliver tens of thousands of credulous pilgrims, all of whom are convinced of the awesome miraculous miracleness of it, even though to anyone who isn’t blinded by faith, it’s just an oddly shaped rotting hunk of tree.

Point is, the actual, real majority of the world’s Christians are not the sweet and nice liberal ones we humanists happen to like because they poo-poo the bad guys and talk nice about liberal ideals. They’re people who consider the bible to be pretty goddamned literal (except, of course, when it really inconveniences them, at which point they suddenly talk about how Jesus put the old Testament laws to rest, unless you’re taking about gays, in which case the old testament still stands. It’s complicated.)

But really, who can blame them for being fundies? Like it or not, no amount of whitewashing can change the fact* that whatever Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, he also repeatedly says there’s no way to heaven except by him. Furthermore, St. Paul, the biggest part of the New Testament BTW, repeatedly, and unambiguously states that if you don’t believe in Jesus, you burn for all eternity. And let’s not forget the Book of Revelation, which ends with god destroying 99% of the human race. Neato. Religion of love.

These are not secondary, debatable concepts like synching up the contradictions in the gospels, these are repeatedly stated “Truths.”

The thing about Liberal Christians is that they’re only able to maintain their belief in Jesus because they literally reject some of the most nonnegotiable tenets of their own faith. I applaud this of course. They’re decent people who, due to their decency, recognize the horrors dictated by their own religion, such as condemning anyone, no matter what they’re like, to an eternity of torment just because they don’t believe in Jesus. But just because they reject these tenets doesn’t make them any less nonnegotiable portions of the faith.

Now I’m not a Christian so I don’t see the problem rejecting any religion. But doesn’t it seem kind of weird to keep hearing people who do so insist their the “real” Christians? At some point, you have to ask yourself if numbers, and words, matter. The majority of Christians take things fairly literally, and the bible, even the new Testament, is filled to bursting with pretty terrible stuff.

I don’t want to insult liberal Christians mind you. Some very good friends of mine are Liberal Christians. But it is telling that despite their poo-pooing the bad guys, they never seem to be able to organize an effective public presence for doing the right thing. They just complain about how fundies have strayed and how unfair it is to tar the whole faith by the actions of the huge number of fundies, and then do nothing. Sometimes I feel like they’re just concern trolls who vote the right way.

*Yes, factual. Crack open a bible sometime. Jesus wasn’t very nice quite a lot of the time. And St. Paul is a sexist, embittered, vengeance obsessed asshole.

Comment #25: Ross  on  07/30  at  04:03 PM

only after I’ve been the “friend” enough times to drive me nuts.

Yeah, being the friend of a woman is so evil.

How dare any woman not be attracted to you.

Funny, I always thought it was a good thing that I I’ve generally been able to remain friends with my various exes, and especially a good thing that I didn’t think I had to be the permanent blowjob machine/slave girl of every guy I was ever momentarily interested in.

Comment #26: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  04:04 PM

Ismone, sorry, that question was snark on my part…

smile

Comment #27: MikeEss  on  07/30  at  04:05 PM

Seriously, the reason no one thought of you of a nice guy was that you, by your own admission, are one of those assholes who likes to powertrip on women to boost your ego.  But I do see that it’s nice to rationalize your behavior.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/30  at  04:05 PM

Also, I’d be more willing to apologize for all the asshole men that string a girl along for a few free rides,

No one’s asking you to apologize for anything, Zifnab.

if I hadn’t spent days and weeks trying to romance girls who inevitably come back and announce they really just want to be friends.

I’ve been the asshole before, but only after I’ve been the “friend” enough times to drive me nuts.  Years of high school and college dating and flirting and find out the difference between what girls say they want and what actually works are the crucibles that turn nice guys into massive pricks.

...wow.

Have you read any of the previous threads about Nice Guys?

Comment #29: Seraph  on  07/30  at  04:05 PM

the real Jesus came along and tried to overturn all of the existing religious/societal structures and rules and replace them with truly loving and fair structures and rules; and that he was murdered by “the man” because of this

Any honest reading of the New Testament confirms that this is true, or at least that this is what the writers of the Gospels were trying to present. Fundamentalist Christianity has as much to do with Jesus as fraternities and sororities have to do with ancient Greece.

Whether this fact reclaims the overall turdiness of modern Christianity is certainly up for debate.

Comment #30: Auguste  on  07/30  at  04:08 PM

They live all over the world, in places where a mere rumor that the Virgin Mary was seen in a rotted tree can deliver tens of thousands of credulous pilgrims, all of whom are convinced of the awesome miraculous miracleness of it, even though to anyone who isn’t blinded by faith, it’s just an oddly shaped rotting hunk of tree.

There’s a pretty big difference between fundamentalism and superstition.

I know plenty of Christians who are a tad superstitious for my tastes but don’t believe in the Bible as the literal word of God, don’t believe in the Rapture, don’t believe that Revelation predicts the imminent end of the world, etc etc etc as many borderline-heretic dogmatic points as you can come up with.

“Fundamentalism” != “Anything I find annoying about religion”  .  It has an actual definition.  Which has little or nothing to do with “people who think they see the virgin mary in a grilled cheese sandwich”.

Comment #31: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  04:08 PM

And let’s not forget the Book of Revelation, which ends with god destroying 99% of the human race. Neato. Religion of love.

Except, of course, that pretty much the ONLY people who interpret Revelation that way are American fundamentalists.  Why are you claiming that American fundamentalist Protestants are representative of all of Christianity worldwide?  I would like to see your proofs that, say, Coptic or Orthodox Christians interpret Revelation the same way that American fundamentalist Protestants do.

Comment #32: Mnemosyne  on  07/30  at  04:23 PM

That said, the kinder, gentler Christian god is still well-likened to a man drunk on male privilege.  He’s not the guy who hits you anymore, no.  Now he’s the guy that doesn’t call you and toys with your emotions.

Hmm.  It strikes me that images of God are not interpretations, but mirrors of a person’s expectations. Talk to someone about what God “wants”, and you’re getting a line into how they see themselves and the world. I’m sure there’s some theological discussion on this, but theology drives me almost as batshit as postmodern literary criticism (*hoooooick* ptoeey).

And, in case you ask, my own image of God is an elderly Chinese woman with a huge and tremendously dangerous sense of humour…

Comment #33: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/30  at  04:24 PM

Stephen and Oppo and Ismone -

Whether or not Revelation is read as a literal prediction or as a symbolic/mythological social criticism is not really material to my point - the point is, that even “liberal” Christians need to account for the fact that as much as Jesus in the N.T. talks about Peace, Love, and good Happiness stuff, he also talks an awful lot about Hellfire and Damnation. It’s there, in the Bible, right alongside the stuff that makes us feel good.

I don’t argue that most Christians have a more far more nuanced take on the Bible than the fundies do. However, that does not make it a more reasonable or consistent or correct take, though. Simply declaring by fiat that the icky parts don’t really count might make it more palatable, as Amanda points out - it still remains to be argued, though, that it is more reasonable.

Actually, fundy or liberal readings of the Bible are equally unreasonable in exactly the same way - namely, unless they take the view that it is no more sacred than the Iliad, The Catcher in the Rye, The Life of Pi, or any other significant and impressive text, all Christians assign to it some element of sacred truth.  Whether literally or metaphorically, the vast majority of Christians out there look to the Bible as describing a state of affairs about our physical world that actually obtains, in a very real and non-metaphorical sense. These core beliefs are shared by the vast majority of Christians, fundy or otherwise, and they either come from the Bible or are codified therein in some sort of Holy fashion: God exists. He is either conscious of, or directly involved with, what is actually happening here on Earth in the 21st century. He “cares” about what we do. He “loves” us. Jesus existed, and was God’s “son” (whatever that means). Jesus died for our sins (whatever that means). When we die, we either go to “Heaven”, or “Hell” (although I know that there is a lot of waffling on the Hell part - surely that doesn’t mean that nice Mrs. Goldberg will be taking a dip in the Lake of Fire!). Etc, Etc.

Until they can provide a single reason to believe that the Bible actually accurately describes such a state of affairs, either literally or metaphorically, as far as I’m concerned they are on equal standing, reasonability-wise.

Comment #34: Joe Bleau  on  07/30  at  04:31 PM

Revelation as prediction of actual future events is NOT the dominant theological understanding.  I believe the general consensus among non-heretics and non-imbeciles is thati it was meant as a critique of the Roman Empire.  Everything it “foretells” is quite handily symbolic of various aspects of then-contemporary Rome, and was pretty easily squared away more than 1500 years ago. 

Revelation as a literal prediction of imminent future events is an EXTREMELY fringey Christian belief.  It’s hard to believe considering all the credence the media gives said fringers, but it’s very, very true.

I won’t argue with your assertion (made “very, very” strongly) that the belief in a literal Revelation is EXTREMELY fringey, though the contents of Tim LaHaye’s bank account might belie that belief.  But seriously, if Revelation is just a parable and not to be taken literally, how much stock should I put in the Gospels?  Was there actually a guy who died and came back to life, or was Jesus just a character like Achilles or Herakles?  How are we supposed to know which parts of the Bible are parable and which accurate history?

Comment #35: ASB  on  07/30  at  04:35 PM

I don’t see why the fundie interpretation is less valid than the more moral-by-modern standards liberal one, not that I’m not grateful for liberal Christians.

Because it’s by far the non-dominant one.

Maybe so, but it is dominant over the liberal interpretation.

Or rather, I should say, it has more adherents who have more money, power, and influence over the religious discourse of this country than the liberal interpretation.

This is like asking why the Valerie Solanas interpretation that men are simply subhuman is less valid than the more liberal feminist model of patriarchal social systems.

Actually, it’s not.  The two different forms of feminism you mention are different interpretations of how to treat and interact with other human beings.

Fundie and liberal Christianity are different interpretations of the will of God (which, of course influences how you interact with other human beings)...who has only made His will known in a two-thousand-year-old, oft-translated book that is crammed full of poetry, mystical visions, and oral history.  Differing interpretations with no way to say which is more valid is only to be expected.

Comment #36: Seraph  on  07/30  at  04:35 PM

Whether literally or metaphorically, the vast majority of Christians out there look to the Bible as describing a state of affairs about our physical world that actually obtains, in a very real and non-metaphorical sense.

I think, if he were to show up today, Jesus would NOT be a Christian of any shape, form, or variety ...

Comment #37: Stephen  on  07/30  at  04:38 PM

Any honest reading of the New Testament confirms that this is true, or at least that this is what the writers of the Gospels were trying to present. Fundamentalist Christianity has as much to do with Jesus as fraternities and sororities have to do with ancient Greece.

With respect, I’d like to suggest that an honest Reading of the New Testament takes into account the clear political subtext - the obvious effort to scrub the Gospels of any nefarious Jewy Jewish influences, and the blatant attempt to suck up to the Roman power establishment while distancing the new faith from any association with the rebellious province that was in the process of being utterly crushed by the Roman military right around the time the gospels were being written down.

For example, the crucifixion is presented as the choice of the Jewish mob, generously allotted to them by Pontius Pilate. Now, not only did the Romans never, ever, ever, ever submit punishment like that to a vote of the people in any written source we have (that isn’t the Bible), in Rome, crucifixion was a punishment reserved for those guilty of crimes against the roman state. Rebels. Slave revolts. That kind of thing. It was the ultimate gruesome punishment intended to discourage future revolts.

Take also the fact that there’s very little that’s actually original about Christianity. It’s basically a synthesis of the various mystery cults popular in the region, and the messianic fervor that gripped the middle east in the first century. 2000 years later, all that context is gone.

I don’t happen to believe anything in the bible can be taken at face value, except for the parts that can be independently confirmed, but it’s obvious that if there’s a kernel of truth in the story, Jesus was a Jewish rabble rouser who pissed off the Romans and was thusly killed by them in an attempt to stem the growing tide of Rebellion in the Judean province. Little Rebellions flared up constantly until the whole province erupted into a revolt that ended up affecting the government of Rome itself. Christians were keenly interested in making damn sure they weren’t lumped in with the Judean rebels.

Comment #38: Ros  on  07/30  at  04:38 PM

So why do you stay with the guy who doesn’t call when he said he would?  In part, because when it’s good, it’s really good, and you cling to those few and far between moments when he returned your affections eagerly, when you laid around eating ice cream and giggling and it was easy and not riddled with doubt and recriminations.  But mostly you do it because you’re afraid.  You’re afraid to quit believing.  You’re afraid that if you say, out loud, “He doesn’t really love me.  He plays with my affections because he gets off on the power he has over me,” then you’ll turn into That Woman.  The cat lady.  The perpetually single.  The unloved, never invited to parties.

*raises hand*

Guilty on all accounts.

Comment #39: UltraMagnus  on  07/30  at  04:43 PM

Is that Jesus in the picture? His own dad won’t return his calls? Aw.

Years of high school and college dating and flirting and find out the difference between what girls say they want and what actually works are the crucibles that turn nice guys into massive pricks.

I don’t know if you think you’re going to get sympathy or commiseration for that bullshit here, since around here we don’t think of “girls” as a monolith with a single mind and set of motivations, but if so, I would suggest looking elsewhere. Just thought I’d warn you, because you seem kind of fragile.

Comment #40: junk science  on  07/30  at  04:45 PM

Or rather, I should say, it has more adherents who have more money, power, and influence over the religious discourse of this country than the liberal interpretation.

You’d be surprised to know this, but actually that’s untrue.  Only something like 15% of the US claims to be an Evangelical Christian of any stripe.  Mainline denominations have vastly larger numbers of self-described adherents.  It’s true that fundamentalist Christians have a disproportionate amount of influence in politics , but they simply are not the bulk of American Christians (and they’re a tiny drop in the pond of world Christianity). 

Which I’ve always maintained is part of the reason they feel the need to be so visible, from their political ambitions to the sheer size of the churches they build.  They desperately want everyone to think that they’re the majority.

Comment #41: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  04:47 PM

But seriously, if Revelation is just a parable and not to be taken literally, how much stock should I put in the Gospels?

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

First of all, even the Rapture fanatics don’t take Revelation literally.  They just interpret it very differently than everyone else in all of Christian theology has.

Secondly, most Christian denominations do not see the Bible as a document to be taken literally, at all.  Whether that’s Revelation, Luke, Genesis, Job, whatever.

Comment #42: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  04:51 PM

Off topic, but, I’d argue that the Eddas and sagas have a bit more real to them than the OT, NT, Illiad, et cetera.  For one thing, they were written a lot more recently.  Also, there’s this funny habit they have of saying things are exactly where archeologists find them, or of talking about things we know happened from other sources.  Also, a big chunk of it is basically a how-to guide for not messing up your meter, rhyme-schemes, and alliterations when writing poetry.  True, Freyr, Loki, Odinn and all the rest keep showing up, but they aren’t just about them.

Comment #43: rowmyboat  on  07/30  at  04:51 PM

Stop apologizing, and stop demanding that I apologize for my apostasy. I’ve given up long ago trying to make sense of, or make any excuses for, the apologia of any Christian, from any wavelength on the spectrum from No True Scotsman to Better Liberal Than You. If you can say, along with Martin Gardner, that there is no reason for any rational person to believe any religious claims whatsoever, but that you believe whatever it is you care to (as does he) because it gives you comfort, because you bloody well feel like it, well, good on you. Just don’t abuse that social courtesy you should be able to expect, and take it as license to eschew reason and rationality and science and evidence. I happen to value those things, and you buy back my courtesy and respect to the extent that you act as if your religious belief excuses you from paying more than lip service to such secular concerns. Just don’t expect me to respect your position regarding Macs vs. PCs, unless you share mine.

Comment #44: Ken Cope  on  07/30  at  04:51 PM

Can I just say that you described my last relationship to a T, Amanda?

Only it took him dumping me for me to realize that hey, you know what? All those times that he acted like he didn’t care, it wasn’t just acting. He didn’t care.

Well, at least it was a learning experience - I’m sure as hell never letting anyone else do that to me again.

Comment #45: Moi  on  07/30  at  04:53 PM

he also talks an awful lot about Hellfire and Damnation. It’s there, in the Bible, right alongside the stuff that makes us feel good.

Quotes, please?

You’re right that there’s that one time he flipped out in the Temple (which wasn’t a prescriptive guideline for Christian behavior, as far as I could ever tell), and then there’s the quote from Matthew about how he does not bring peace, but the sword (which in context is pretty hard to interpret in a way that means Jesus came to preach violence and war rather than peace and forgiveness). .  But that’s about it.  In comparison to the chapter after verse about peace, love, forgiveness, and mercy.

I’d also add that Revelation is NOT taken to be the words or tale of Christ - Christ does not appear, either as narrator or character.

Comment #46: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  04:56 PM

stop demanding that I apologize for my apostasy… you act as if your religious belief excuses you from paying more than lip service to such secular concerns.

I don’t know if maybe you’re responding to a comment I missed somewhere, , but so far I don’t see very many people here apologizing for Christianity (liberal or otherwise) because it is their own religion,  or demanding that anyone “apologizing for… apostasy”. 

I know, at least in terms of myself and my own participation in this thread, that 1) I’m NOT a Christian and every bit as much an apostate as you are, and 2) whatever position I take here that could be interpreted as “pro-Christian” is out of a respect for truth and good faith argument, not on behalf of Christians.  I’d do the same in a thread about Scientology, Mormonism, Wicca, or Atheism.

Comment #47: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  05:02 PM

Quotes, please?

Try glancing through this list, for starters…

Comment #48: Joe Bleau  on  07/30  at  05:06 PM

Christ does not appear, either as narrator or character.

That is, to say the least, a unique reading of the book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Revelation

The book is called a “testimony of Jesus Christ” and he appears not only as the lamb (obviously a metaphor) but also in the end when, you know, that whole second coming thing happens. You might have heard of it?

Comment #49: Ross  on  07/30  at  05:11 PM

“The book is called a “testimony of Jesus Christ””

I think the point was that, as opposed to the Gospels, there are no quotes/speeches/sermons attributed to him. Whereas the Gospels purport to relay the messages that actually came out of Jesus’ mouth, Revelations isn’t like that. It’s not about what happened, it’s about what is going to happen. So yes, Jesus may appear as a “character” in Revelations, but not in the same way as in the Gospels ...

Comment #50: Stephen  on  07/30  at  05:15 PM

Okay Stephen, fair enough, but that’s being extremely obtuse.

Comment #51: Ross  on  07/30  at  05:17 PM

One is presented as reported history, the other as revealed future.

Comment #52: Stephen  on  07/30  at  05:17 PM

that’s being extremely obtuse

How so? And on whose part?

Comment #53: Stephen  on  07/30  at  05:18 PM

TO, I wasn’t addressing anybody in particular—it’s just a play on apologies and apologia, because every one of these threads I’ve lurked on or participated in, it doesn’t matter what anybody says about Christianity or atheism, everybody believes what they do for perfectly sound reasons and it’s those other people that hold their convictions for less than reputable reasons. I too, respect good faith (hah! funny!) argument.

Comment #54: Ken Cope  on  07/30  at  05:20 PM

When Opo states “Revelation is NOT taken to be the words or tale of Christ,” you question this; and I merely try to clarify the meaning ... so who’s being obtuse? Me or Opo?

Comment #55: Stephen  on  07/30  at  05:21 PM

Oppo. I know you were summarizing/explaining. But what oppo actually said was “Christ does not appear, either as narrator or character.” this is obviously not true in any way.

It’s also irrelevant. Christ never appears as narrator in any part of the bible.

Comment #56: Ross  on  07/30  at  05:24 PM

One is presented as reported history, the other as revealed future.

Wait a sec - I thought you said (@2:57) we weren’t supposed to read Revelation as prophesy!

I’m genuinely curious as to what you think Revelation does actually represent, if not the wrath of God/Jesus against the nonbelievers and infidels…

Comment #57: Joe Bleau  on  07/30  at  05:25 PM

Ros,

There was (supposedly) an annual ritual where the Romans would free a Jewish prisoner.  The Jews chose Barabas instead of Christ.  So it wasn’t that the crowd was really being asked, it was that the Romans figured, duh, you want to release Jesus, and they chose to release a murderer instead.

“For example, the crucifixion is presented as the choice of the Jewish mob, generously allotted to them by Pontius Pilate. Now, not only did the Romans never, ever, ever, ever submit punishment like that to a vote of the people in any written source we have (that isn’t the Bible), in Rome, crucifixion was a punishment reserved for those guilty of crimes against the roman state. Rebels. Slave revolts. That kind of thing. It was the ultimate gruesome punishment intended to discourage future revolts.”

Joe,

“Actually, fundy or liberal readings of the Bible are equally unreasonable in exactly the same way - namely, unless they take the view that it is no more sacred than the Iliad, The Catcher in the Rye, The Life of Pi, or any other significant and impressive text, all Christians assign to it some element of sacred truth.”

Okay, they’re equal (actually, they’re the same) in that respect, but that is not all there is to it.  And I’m not telling anyone to believe.  You either do or do not.  But if you are going to inaccurately describe theology, I’m gonna call you on it.  (Just like I call Christians on it when they say dumb things about Atheists, and EVERYONE on it when they say inaccurate things about Judaism or Islam, both of which I have studied.) 

For example, some religious traditions are more into, say, accurate translations.  Like the whole thing about “Jesus descending into hell.”  Well, he didn’t, he descended into Sheol, which is the land of the dead.  In Jewish theology at the time, there was no Hell, and no Heaven, just Sheol, which basically meant “where dead people go.”  There’s also the fact that some religions recognize, by looking at literary styles of the time, when something is supposed to be literal and when it is supposed to be symbolic.  I.e., apocrypha.  Reading the bible and not understanding apocrypha is like trying to read Gabriel Garcia Marquez and not understanding Magical Realism.

These different linguistic and literary interpretations lead to a better understanding of what the authors actually meant.

And that is important when we interpret ANY text.

Comment #58: Ismone  on  07/30  at  05:25 PM

You’d be surprised to know this, but actually that’s untrue.  Only something like 15% of the US claims to be an Evangelical Christian of any stripe.  Mainline denominations have vastly larger numbers of self-described adherents.  It’s true that fundamentalist Christians have a disproportionate amount of influence in politics , but they simply are not the bulk of American Christians (and they’re a tiny drop in the pond of world Christianity).

Yes, but how does that 15% measure up to groups that could in any reasonable way be called “liberal”?  The single largest denomination in the United States is the Catholic Church at 25% (losing followers at the same rate or better than other Christian denominations, but shored up by immigration), and Catholicism (as a denomination) can hardly be called “liberal”.  I know 14% of Americans report themselves as “Without Faith”...that brings us to 54%...with Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Pagans, and Mainstream-but-conservative Churches each taking their piece of the pie…

Comment #59: Seraph  on  07/30  at  05:26 PM

Joe, I got to the 4th or 5 item, realized they were all either in bad faith or demonstrated an amazing lack of reding comprehension, and stopped.

Can you give me something substantive that shows, in an actually literate sort of way, what you are trying to claim?

Comment #60: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  05:26 PM

Catholicism (as a denomination) can hardly be called “liberal”... Mainstream-but-conservative Churches each taking their piece of the pie…

Neither Catholics nor Mainliners believe in the things that we’re talking about here, things like the Rapture, Revelation as prophecy soon to be revealed, a literal reading of the Bible,  and the like.  That’s kind of the point.  You don’t have to be a Quaker or a Unitarian to disagree with that sort of thing; virtually all Christians would.

Comment #61: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  05:29 PM

Joe,

The question is “what is the difference between the gospels and the apocrypha?”

Comment #62: Ismone  on  07/30  at  05:29 PM

In my experience, it’s often been the woman (I’m a straight guy) who doesn’t call or doesn’t return calls.  Let me be clear that I understand I’m not entitled to a call or a call back, but it’s still frustrating from time to time.

(And yes, I’ve been guilty of this too.)

Comment #63: Linnaeus  on  07/30  at  05:30 PM

There was (supposedly) an annual ritual where the Romans would free a Jewish prisoner.

No, no actually there wasn’t. But as long as we’re using the “supposedly” frame, supposedly, there is a god who died for your sins and he’s also his own dad. See, easy!

There also wasn’t an empire wide census at the time of Jesus’ birth.

Comment #64: Ross  on  07/30  at  05:30 PM

Have you read any of the previous threads about Nice Guys?

No.  I’m relatively new here.

Comment #65: Zifnab25  on  07/30  at  05:32 PM

Look, Jesus Christ ... he’s just not into you.

Comment #66: Ms Kate  on  07/30  at  05:33 PM

Seraph,

Catholic doctrine is:  1) hostile to capitalism, 2) hostile to war (and the source of the just war doctrine, minus that preemptive nonsense, 3) opposed to the death penalty.

American Catholics are, in the majority:  1) democrats, 2) pro-choice, 3) and pro-contraception.  (The church is anti- the last two.)

So, while the doctrine is a mix of liberal and not-liberal, the followers are not what you would call conservative.  Even the most pro-lifey Catholics I’ve meant believe in living wages, affordable healthcare, ending poverty, etc., etc.  Many are pacifists and oppose the death penalty.

Comment #67: Ismone  on  07/30  at  05:33 PM

That’s great, Zif.  I’m glad you’re maintaining the belief that nothing is ever a man’s fault.  Sheesh.

Welcome to the great wheel of asshole-dom.  Girls get pissed at guys for getting pissed a girls for getting pissed at guys…

Comment #68: Zifnab25  on  07/30  at  05:34 PM

Zifnab25:  You might want to check ‘em out when you get a chance.

Comment #69: Linnaeus  on  07/30  at  05:34 PM

Welcome to the great wheel of asshole-dom.  Girls get pissed at guys for getting pissed a girls for getting pissed at guys…

As opposed to the great wheel of douchebaggery, where a guy gets pissed off at a gal for not wanting to date him, and then gets pissed off again when she acts annoyed/freaked out that he can’t take no without being a little crybaby about it.

Sound familiar?

Comment #70: Ross  on  07/30  at  05:38 PM

Ross,

Okay, looks like there is no extra-biblical authority for that claim.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3262626

Do you have a cite for the no-census claim?  (Not being snarky, just interested).

Comment #71: Ismone  on  07/30  at  05:38 PM

So yes, Jesus may appear as a “character” in Revelations, but not in the same way as in the Gospels ...

To be fair to Ross, I did forget that Jesus comes back as himself (as opposed to “the lamb”, or another part of the trinity, or some other symbol) and actually does stuff.

Though I’m still not sure he actually makes any pronouncements.

And the rest of your point is correct.  Revelation is the story of a vision that John (probably not the Apostle John) has.  Even if Jesus appears, it’s not meant to be an actual account of something Jesus supposedly did or said.  It’s kind of like if I said to you, “You know one day Barack Obama is going to go down to Crawford, Texas, and kick George Bush’s as.” 

You couldn’t actually use that statement to prove that Barack Obama is an asshole who goes around beating people up.

Comment #72: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  05:41 PM

It’s kind of like if I said to you, “You know one day Barack Obama is going to go down to Crawford, Texas, and kick George Bush’s as.”

That would be such a great day.

Comment #73: Ross  on  07/30  at  05:44 PM

I think, if he were to show up today, Jesus would NOT be a Christian of any shape, form, or variety ...

The second coming of Jesus was abruptly aborted when immigration officials seized his passport and threw him in Gitmo for being a scary brown person.

Comment #74: Zifnab25  on  07/30  at  05:48 PM

Revelation as prediction of actual future events is NOT the dominant theological understanding.

I was taught (by Catholics) that Revelation was prophecy that is still out in the future, it’s not just some poetic stuff that we can ignore.  We’ve got a huge repertoire of Revelations-based movies (The Seventh Sign, The Book, Prophecy 1-howevermany, The Omen 1-howevermany, Constantine, etc.), and books (the Left Behind series, whole sections on Biblical prophecy at Lifeway and Family Christian Stores).  “The Late Great Planet Earth” was the best-selling “nonfiction” book of the 70’s.

I think most Christians would indeed say that Revelations predicts the emergence of an Antichrist, a major war in the Middle East, various plagues, and the end of the world.  They may not say that Revelation is near, but I don’t think they would disagree on what it says.  So how does the most popular understanding of an idea become the non-dominant theological understanding?

Sure, PhD’s who study the Bible have a very liberal Christian view, but most actual Christians don’t seem to share that view.  I feel like saying that the Jesus Seminar’s understanding of the Bible is dominant theological understanding is akin to saying that the existence of academics studying how white privilege works means most white people are personally invested in dismantling the American system of racism.

Comment #75: KL  on  07/30  at  05:53 PM

Ismone, The Book of Revelation is not to my knowledge considered Apocryphal by any Christian tradition, but rather a member in full and good standing in the Canon.

Opo, you really should read on. Granted, some passages carry more weight than others, but it is beyond disingenuous to dismiss the entire list without even reading them. Nor can you claim that the passages are taken out of context - simply click the link to see the full verse.

Comment #76: Joe Bleau  on  07/30  at  05:53 PM

As opposed to the great wheel of douchebaggery, where a guy gets pissed off at a gal for not wanting to date him, and then gets pissed off again when she acts annoyed/freaked out that he can’t take no without being a little crybaby about it.

Sound familiar?

I know you are but what am I?

Please put down the pepper spray and try to keep from fainting in shock at the the idea of a guy liking a girl.  Not every guy goes from rejected date to psycho stalker.  It is a bit depressing when you find the girls you treat well don’t respond to you while the girls you treat poorly get all clingy.

From my personal experience, I’ve found that girls like douchebags.  Maybe that changes as people get older.  I don’t know.  What I do know is that the same asshole who shows up late, drinks heavily, borrows money, and cheats around is the same one I consistently lose the girl too.  If that’s my model for success, what the hell am I supposed to think?

Comment #77: Zifnab25  on  07/30  at  05:57 PM

So, while the doctrine is a mix of liberal and not-liberal,

To be fair, I’ve seen Catholic doctrine held up as a prime example of an internally consistent philosophy that was neither liberal nor conservative.  But that still counts it out as “liberal”.

the followers are not what you would call conservative.  Even the most pro-lifey Catholics I’ve meant believe in living wages, affordable healthcare, ending poverty, etc., etc.  Many are pacifists and oppose the death penalty.

And pretty much all of the Catholics I’ve met are what you would call conservative.  I suppose our anecdotes cancel each other out.

Comment #78: Seraph  on  07/30  at  05:59 PM

I was going to write a Nice Guytm 101 post but now I may just link to all of Zifnab’s comments.

“See? Like that.”

Comment #79: Auguste  on  07/30  at  06:04 PM

From my personal experience, I’ve found that girls like douchebags.  Maybe that changes as people get older.  I don’t know.  What I do know is that the same asshole who shows up late, drinks heavily, borrows money, and cheats around is the same one I consistently lose the girl too.  If that’s my model for success, what the hell am I supposed to think?

One option might be to consider that, perhaps, that particular woman is not the right choice for you and you should move on to someone else.  Do you really want to be with someone whose judgement you clearly don’t respect?

Being a decent person should be the default, not anything exceptional for which you deserve a reward.

(Sorry for contributing to thread drift)

Comment #80: Linnaeus  on  07/30  at  06:05 PM

“[I can] in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it.”

—Martin Luther’s assessment of the Book of Revelations. The famous reformer who precipitated the Reformation and founded of the Lutheran Church (and a completely odious thinker from any modern progressive POV, see his writings on Jews and peasants).

“Christianity” isn’t one or another historically fixed thing. It eludes framing by US fundies or the like of a Dawkins. Major historic Christians do not even agree on what books belong in the Bible.

The attempts advanced here to make definitive judgments on the value of a entire major world religious tradition, to fix matters of belief and the interpretation of scriptural texts as “non-negotiable” or absolute, are risible and absurd.

Comment #81: wapsie  on  07/30  at  06:07 PM

Nor can you claim that the passages are taken out of context - simply click the link to see the full verse.

Yeah, that’s what I mean.  It sounds cute and all, then you click through to read the verse and you would have to be a troglodyte to get the reading they seem to want you to get.

Like the part where Jesus “sends everyone to hell”, except that the verse doesn’t mention hell. 

Or the part where Christianity is “intolerant” because John the Baptist used the phrase “generation of vipers”.  Ooooh, I scay-uwwd…  Wy iz da bad mayunn bein’ so meen?

If the entire rest of the list is of a different stripe, maybe they should have started off with the good stuff?

Comment #82: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  06:10 PM

If I wasn’t being clear enough about Luther: He didn’t like Revelations, and wanted to take out of the Bible. And he was far from a warm fuzzy liberal Christian (see his odious writings on Jews in general and peasants who dare to challenge authority; not the mention the guy practically invented the modern Western concept of the patriarchal nuclear family).

Comment #83: wapsie  on  07/30  at  06:12 PM

“From my personal experience, I’ve found that girls like <strike>douchebags</strike> guys who aren’t me.”

Comment #84: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  06:14 PM

“Christianity” isn’t one or another historically fixed thing. It eludes framing by US fundies or the like of a Dawkins. Major historic Christians do not even agree on what books belong in the Bible.

True.  There is no objective standard against which to measure the correctness of any particular doctrine or belief.  If God would make His will known, that would be different, but - as is the point of the post - God remains silent (no matter how many times people call Him). 

Which brings us back to Amanda’s original statement:

I don’t see why the fundie interpretation is less valid than the more moral-by-modern standards liberal one

Comment #85: Seraph  on  07/30  at  06:15 PM

I’m a little lost here between the various threads of argument, but I can’t resist chiming in.

Ismone is correct in that there is no factual basis for the release of a prisoner at Passover.  That’s pretty much a given amongst serious (i.e. non-fundamentalist, mostly European) scholars.  I’ve actually read a theory that the Barabbas story is actually a metaphor about Jesus himself.  Barabbas’ full name was “Jesus Barabbas,” which literally means Jesus son of the father.  That, of course, is what Jesus of Nazareth supposedly called himself.  Thus the Barabbas that the crowd wanted released was actually Jesus of Nazareth.

I know that doesn’t make too much sense.  It’s too long a story to type the whole thing out.  Anyway, Barabbas is not a true story.

I think the best single piece of evidence that the Gospels CAN’T be literally true (there’s piles of evidence, but this is my favorite) is simply the fact that Mark puts the so-called Cleansing of the Temple incident at the beginning of Jesus’ ministry, whereas the Synoptics place it at the end, during holy week.  I’ve never seen a fundy triple axel somersault theory that could explain away this contradiction.

Revelation is the testimony of John, in which he describes an elaborate vision.  Jesus appeared in the vision, but so also did a Lamb and a bunch of other images that may or may not have represented Jesus.  Revelation is apocalyptic literature, and was never intended to be read as some prediction of future events.  Anybody who think otherwise is just stupid. (Yes, that’s means there’s millions of stupid people out there.  So what?)

Opoponax is basically correct, although she did slip up when she asserted Jesus wasn’t in Revelation.  He is, but he’s a bit player.

Jesus did NOT talk about hellfire, except a tiny bit.  The link that Joe Bleau provided just takes you to a page with a bunch of nasty things that are said in the NT, some by Jesus, some by others, and only a few suggesting a flaming apocalypse.  Neither Jesus nor Paul ever say anyone is going to hell, although both suggest that people who don’t follow Jesus will be excluded from the coming rulership (“Kingdom” isnt really the right word) of God. 

The closest Jesus comes to even mentioning hell is where he mentions bad people being consigned to the pit (“Sheol” I think, too tired to look it up) which was synonimous with the Jewish underworld.  Not the same as hell at all.

It would be surprising if hell were mentioned in the Bible since it was generally lacking from Jewish religio-mythology in the 1st Century.  They simply hadn’t invented it yet.

As far as Jesus’ divinity goes, I don’t believe Jesus is “divine” in the same sense that God is divine.  In fact, Paul says Jesus only became the son of God by virtue of the fact that God selected him to be the “first fruit” by resurrecting him.  (You only see that, however, if you read Paul in the original Greek.  I can’t read Greek, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.)

Jesus died two thousand years ago.  He doesn’t know me, didn’t know me, isn’t in heaven watching me, writing my name in some damn book.  He’s dead.

And no, Jesus wouldn’t want to have anything to do with Christians were he alive today.  For one thing, he’s not a Christian, he’s Jewish.

For what it’s worth, I consider myself a Christian, but I don’t believe any part of the Bible is meant to be taken as literally true, although some parts do reflect factual events.

Comment #86: ummeli  on  07/30  at  06:16 PM

3 more zifnab comments and my bingo-card will be blacked out.

Comment #87: Eric, Rejector of Memes  on  07/30  at  06:21 PM

So how does the most popular understanding of an idea become the non-dominant theological understanding?

Because people often take movies way too seriously and think that a movie that purports to show what the Book of Revelation “really” says is actually telling the truth.  What, there aren’t enough examples in the world to show you that people take the bits that they like from stories and ignore the rest?

People assume that All Christians Believe In the Rapture because self-promoters like Tim LaHaye get themselves onto 60 Minutes and assure the world that they really do represent a huge movement.  It’s the same reason that Bill Donohue, who is a layman who has never been to divinity school, has become a spokesman for the Catholic Church:  he has a fax machine and always shows up at the TV studio on time.  He has nothing else to do all day except be outraged, whereas people who actually know something about Catholicism or Catholic doctrine and dogma have day jobs that mean they can’t drop everything to be on TV in the middle of the afternoon.

Half the stuff in the “Left Behind” books isn’t even in Revelation.  It appears in Daniel and other books of the Bible and you need a Scofield Reference Bible to assemble all of the pieces.

Fred Clark at Slacktivist has a good, cogent explanation of the different strains of Rapture-believers and the weird contortions they have to perform to get their “literal” reading.

Comment #88: Mnemosyne  on  07/30  at  06:21 PM

So how does the most popular understanding of an idea become the non-dominant theological understanding?

Because it’s not the most popular understanding of that particular idea, at all.

Most people write books and make movies about Teh Apocalypse because it’s an interestiting idea.  People also write books and make movies about hobbits, dragons, and King Arthur, but it’s highly unlikely that said folks actually believe in those things.  And of course the vast majority of people who buy such books and pay to see such films do not believe in them, either. 

There is also a tiny but vocal contingent of very wealthy fundamentalist Christians who virtually self-publish books on The Rapture.  The fact that these people are wealthy enough to start their own publishing houses and finance their own movies does not make them representative of all Christians.  They’re still considered heretics by every mainstream denomination.  Not to mention, of course, that the bulk of the audience for the more mainstream of these sorts of works no more believe in this sort of thing than they believe that Frodo and Friends found and destroyed The One Ring To Rule Them All.

Many Catholics and Mainliners see Revelation as some sort of prophecy for something, possibly something that might happen in a far-distant future.  Many believe that there will be some sort of “end of the world” someday, and it’s right there in the Nicene Creed that Christians believe that Christ will eventually return to “judge the living and the dead”.  But very few Christians regard Revelations as a literal blueprint of that.

Comment #89: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  06:22 PM

Many Catholics and Mainliners see Revelation as some sort of prophecy for something, possibly something that might happen in a far-distant future.  Many believe that there will be some sort of “end of the world” someday, and it’s right there in the Nicene Creed that Christians believe that Christ will eventually return to “judge the living and the dead”.  But very few Christians regard Revelations as a literal blueprint of that.

Even so, everything in this paragragh is still total insanity and why I’m supposed to treat it as anything but is beyond me.

Comment #90: Ross  on  07/30  at  06:32 PM

To clarify, I don’t mean oppo is insane. I mean those views of the book of Revalation are insane.

Comment #91: Ross  on  07/30  at  06:36 PM

I don’t see the point of arguing about what it is that Christians do or don’t believe, I’ve never met two who couldn’t find some theological point or other to violently disagree about. If somebody claims they’re Christian, who am I to argue with them about Christianity. Identifying as a Christian gives me next to no information about what it is I can expect somebody to believe. As for taking issue with the variety of Abrahamic religion Dawkins criticizes, who cares whether he’s spot on or missing it by a mile. If they figure religion trumps science no matter what, I can’t tell the difference between that kind of vivid internal fantasy life and that of somebody who Mary Sues themselves into any other kind of fantasy/SF/personal relationships narrative from which reason will not dissuade them.

Comment #92: Ken Cope  on  07/30  at  06:36 PM

Joe,

I was confusing apocrypha with apocalyptic literature.  my bad.  I always do that.  See also everyone else re: Martin Luther.

KL,

The catholics who taught you were way out of line with Catholic doctrine.

Seraph,

I meant politically liberal.  Aside from anecdotes, see my earlier post re: voting, pro-choiceness, and pro-contraception.

Also, I’ve explained why I think the modern interpretation is better—-it is based on a more thorough understanding of linguistics and the literature of the time.  (Apocalyptic literature, the word sheol as discussed by both ummeli and me).

Ummeli,

Of course, the 300-400 year (if I remember correctly) gap between Christ’s alleged death and the writing of the gospels may explain a lot.  And they also explain why taking the bible literally is rather foolish.

Comment #93: Ismone  on  07/30  at  06:40 PM

To clarify, I don’t mean oppo is insane. I mean those views of the book of Revalation are insane.

Which views?  As I linked to above, even the people who claim that Revelation is some kind of blueprint can’t support that within the text and have to wander off to other books in the Bible to assemble anything halfway coherent?

People who claim that the Book of Revelation is a clear explanation of the Apocalypse are the religious equivalent of the people who claim that aliens built the Pyramids, and they assembled their “evidence” in just about as meticulous a manner.

Comment #94: Mnemosyne  on  07/30  at  06:41 PM

Ken,

I don’t think religion trumps science.  I do think that where the two conflict, ancient man just didn’t have the words or comprehension to express the real truth.  Or was engaging in some serious hyperbole or metaphors.

“The earth stood still”—that sounds pretty cool, right?  People still like that expression.  Makes no damn sense, but still.

Comment #95: Ismone  on  07/30  at  06:42 PM

I don’t see the point of arguing about what it is that Christians do or don’t believe, I’ve never met two who couldn’t find some theological point or other to violently disagree about.

Yes, because—and this may come as a shock to you—there are many sects of Christianity.  There are also many sects of Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and pretty much any other religion you care to name.  Even Scientology has breakaway sects now.

You can play John McCain and claim that you don’t see any reason to differentiate between Sunni and Shi’a because, hey, they’re all Muslims, but it’s not a particularly useful way to view the world.

Comment #96: Mnemosyne  on  07/30  at  06:44 PM

Okay, to clear up any confusion, let me walk you through this:

Many Catholics and Mainliners see Revelation as some sort of prophecy for something, possibly something that might happen in a far-distant future.

 

Insane. Prophecy is nonsense. Anyone who believes in prophecy should be pitied.

Many believe that there will be some sort of “end of the world” someday, and it’s right there in the Nicene Creed that Christians believe that Christ will eventually return to “judge the living and the dead”.

Insane. I catagorically reject the idea that believing that Jesus is going to return to judge the living and the dead is a reasonable idea to hold in your head.

But very few Christians regard Revelations as a literal blueprint of that.

Good, but this doesn’t change the fact that believing in prophecy and the return of jesus isn’t silly.

Comment #97: Ross  on  07/30  at  06:50 PM

One option might be to consider that, perhaps, that particular woman is not the right choice for you and you should move on to someone else.  Do you really want to be with someone whose judgement you clearly don’t respect?

Yes?  :-p
Girls aren’t so one-dimensional that I judge them based on their choice of boyfriends.  I can have respect for someone without particularly liking their significant others.

Being a decent person should be the default, not anything exceptional for which you deserve a reward.

Well, but again you miss the point and that is that everyone needs a role model.  People tend to gravitate towards role models that are successful.  The various role models in a guy’s life - when it comes to getting the girl - range from fatherly family men to hugh hefner playboys.  These are the people traditionally acknowledged as the “winners” of the game of life and the people guys aspire towards.

As you grow from boy to man, you try to identify with people closer to home.  So older friends who date a great deal are considered people you want to mimic.  Rivals are also potential role models.  If you want to date Sally Anne and she gets swept up by Bob the Quarterback, you might try and join the football team.  If you want to sleep with Jackie, the girl at the end of your dorm room floor, and she’s currently seeing some biker guy, you might buy yourself a motorcycle.  If you fall in love with your friend’s co-worker and you see her going out with guys covered in tatoos who play the guitar… well, you get the idea.

If the people you see as successful are nice, respectful, classy gentlemen then you will try to style yourself after the same type of person.  If the people you see as successful are pimp’n playas, the same goes.

Man is a product of his environment.

(Sorry for contributing to thread drift)

I think this thread went scitzo a while back.

Comment #98: Zifnab25  on  07/30  at  06:51 PM

Of course, the 300-400 year (if I remember correctly) gap between Christ’s alleged death and the writing of the gospels may explain a lot.  And they also explain why taking the bible literally is rather foolish.

You’re talking about the Council of Nicea, right?  That was when the Bible was assembled, but the Gospels were written much earlier - anywhere from “theoretically within living memory” (still decades later, of course) to 100 years or so. 

Of course, the fact that they were all written with the goal of making converts raises at least as many questions about their accuracy as the time lapse.

Comment #99: Seraph  on  07/30  at  06:55 PM

Yes, because—and this may come as a shock to you—there are many sects of Christianity.

Thanks for underlining, boldfacing and italicizing my point, while trying to turn it around 180 degrees at the same time. Neat trick. It’s as ludicrous to claim ALL X believe Y as to counter it with NO X believe Y. Believe it or not, I can observe that, while not claiming that there is no point in differentiating between them. To say somebody is Christian tells me nothing about what kind, just as to say somebody is Arab tells me nothing about what they believe. Because there are so many sects, it takes further communication to find out what they believe, and what is more important to me, why they believe it, and whether or not they think their religion trumps observation and evidence, which is not just useful, it’s kind of a survival issue.

Comment #100: Ken Cope  on  07/30  at  06:58 PM

hmm, I didn’t realize they were written so soon.

Right, seraph, there is a reason why I don’t take them literally.

Comment #101: Ismone  on  07/30  at  07:06 PM

Even so, everything in this paragragh is still total insanity and why I’m supposed to treat it as anything but is beyond me.

Nobody here is asking anybody to treat Revelation as anything besides, at best, some interesting esoteric/mystical writing, and at worst, litterbox lining.

The issue most of us on the “pro” side (if you could even call it that) are arguing is one of veracity.  There is no point in criticizing Revelations (or those who believe in a “literal” reading of it as prophetic truth meaningful in the short term of our own lives) on the basis of false claims, because there are plenty of totally true claims about it that render it bogus.  You only make yourself look ignorant when you make shit up in order to condemn something that would be easy to condemn based on the facts.

Comment #102: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  07:14 PM

To say somebody is Christian tells me nothing about what kind, just as to say somebody is Arab tells me nothing about what they believe.

Yes, because there are many Arabs who are not Muslim.  Ethnicity and religion only have a weak relationship to one another, which is why there are so many Asian Muslims and so many Arab Christians.

These days, if someone tells you that they’re “Christian” with no other identifier, they’re either one of the people who feels vaguely connected to Christianity in a fuzzy kind of way but doesn’t actually attend a church (except possibly on Christmas and Easter) or they belong to one of the fundie sects that’s trying to convince people that their specific brand of Christianity is The One True Christianity, so they identify themselves as Christians to try and rebrand the entire diversity of Christianity to their one set of beliefs.  The first group is the more dangerous because they’re more likely to pay attention to pop culture figures like Tim LaHaye and believe that he knows what he’s talking about when it comes to the Rapture—after all, they wouldn’t put him on TV if he didn’t!

Having someone tell you they’re a Christian is actually a pretty informative thing as long as you pay attention.

Comment #103: Mnemosyne  on  07/30  at  07:23 PM

TO, I’m not really interested in people who don’t take Revelations as a literal timetable and outline for why we should nuke Iran because I’mADinnerJacket is the Beast with Ten Horns. It’s the people who do, and the politicians who pander to them, either out of shared sentiment, or because their money is green. I expect my atheist father-in-law could set all of you straight on all the various readings of Revelations, because I’ve seen his groaning bookshelves supporting his scholarship in having taught the Bible as literature in college for years. Despite the fact that I can go on for days describing the differences between Vishnu and Indra, and discuss the provenance of the stories of Christ as Messiah and the notion of the Boddhisattva, he and I both lump all gods into the “imaginary” category. It’s the guy who wonders if SCUDS over Israel in 1991 means its time for him and his pals to spooge because his Hal Lindsey wet dream might play out in his lifetime. There are more of him than there are of me, and they worry me.

Comment #104: Ken Cope  on  07/30  at  07:26 PM

Having someone tell you they’re a Christian is actually a pretty informative thing as long as you pay attention.

Sure, it’s plenty of information, enough for me to put my guard up. It’s only after some conversation that I’ll know whether or not I can relax my guard again.

Comment #105: Ken Cope  on  07/30  at  07:30 PM

The only joke my fundy mother ever made, probably fifty years ago, went something like this:

Q. “Are you a Christian?”

A. “Heck, no! I’m a Methodist!”

Comment #106: Ken Cope  on  07/30  at  07:35 PM

There are more of him than there are of me, and they worry me.

1.  I’m not sure that’s true.  Surveys of American religious trends indiate that you’re about neck in neck.  And if you lump all atheist/agnostic/nonreligious folks in with the other people who quite pointedly Do Not Agree with the fundies, you will find that the we vastly outnumber them. 

2.  Yes, Ken, and they worry all of us, too.  This is the part where the atheist argument gets a wee bit tiring.  Because you have this tendency to get all righteously angry at anyone who dares to even chat idly about religion, even if most people in the conversation have made it clear that they don’t subscribe to the beliefs being casually bantered about.  Nobody is trying to convert anybody, here.  We’re just chatting.

Comment #107: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  07:36 PM

It always amuses me in these threads to see how many people assume atheist = liberal.  It ain’t necessarily so, kids, any more than theist = conservative.

My mother has been an atheist all her life and yet still thinks gay marriage is wrong and Democrats are spendthrifts.  Being an atheist hasn’t stopped her from being a Rush Limbaugh-loving Republican, though I’m sure some here will be astounded to hear it.

Comment #108: Mnemosyne  on  07/30  at  07:38 PM

Zifnab, there are sever sections of Feminism 101 you need to read before touching the keyboard again.  You do know this is a feminist blog, right?

Comment #109: rowmyboat  on  07/30  at  07:43 PM

Being an atheist hasn’t stopped her from being a Rush Limbaugh-loving Republican, though I’m sure some here will be astounded to hear it.

Rush Limbaugh is the physical embodyment of godless hedonism, so that really doesn’t surprise me.  What surprises me - continuously - isn’t the secular libertarian listeners but the gullible fundies who keep tuning in.

Comment #110: Zifnab25  on  07/30  at  07:43 PM

Nobody is trying to convert anybody, here.  We’re just chatting.

If the criticisms of “militant” atheists approached the rigor demanded of critics of Christianity, I’d be less argumentative.

Comment #111: Ken Cope  on  07/30  at  07:45 PM

Zifnab, there are sever sections of Feminism 101 you need to read before touching the keyboard again.  You do know this is a feminist blog, right?

hehe.  That’s half the reason I’m here.  Blogs are no fun if everyone agrees with me.  DKos message boards put me right to sleep.  Devil’s Advocate is way more enjoyable.

I mean, I’m a regular over at RiehlWorldView as well, and there’s probably nobody I’ve ever disagreed with more than that wingnut loon.

Comment #112: Zifnab25  on  07/30  at  07:46 PM

you will find that the we vastly outnumber them.

I hope you’re right, but I’ll remain pessimistic on that point, in the hope that I’ll someday be pleasantly surprised.

Comment #113: Ken Cope  on  07/30  at  07:48 PM

Rush Limbaugh-loving Republican

A dear atheist friend is also a gay, global warming denialist, Randroid libertarian, who’d die before voting for a Democrat.

Comment #114: Ken Cope  on  07/30  at  07:52 PM

If the criticisms of “militant” atheists approached the rigor demanded of critics of Christianity

Most people participating in this thread are critics of Christianity.    Nobody has any problem with people who criticize Christianity.  The issue here is whether you might want to get your facts straight first.  Because there’s plenty of legitimate fuel for the fire without having to go make stuff up. 

I’m confused—you want people to just make up bullshit about Christianity,  because???? 

Or is your point that there’s no reason to bother to know anything about the things you are against?

That there’s no point in talking about what religion X believes, vs what religion Y believes, because the believers should all be tossed into the pit together anyway?

Comment #115: The Opoponax  on  07/30  at  07:54 PM

That there’s no point in talking about what religion X believes, vs what religion Y believes, because the believers should all be tossed into the pit together anyway?

Learn to read…

Comment #116: Ken Cope  on  07/30  at  07:56 PM

Secondly, most Christian denominations do not see the Bible as a document to be taken literally, at all.

That’s abundantly untrue, Op, and I wonder how you can say that. Do most Christian denominations not refer to a historical Jesus and Crucifixion? I guarantee you that they do. For most reasonable people, after all, the significance of Jesus’s life, ministry, and sacrifice are somewhat diminished if they did not, in fact, actually happen.

Obviously the liberal churches don’t expect people to take all of the Bible literally, but they certainly consider parts of it literal historical truth. If you were to ask them whether the deity and Messiah they worship is a fictional character not meant to be taken literally, they would be adamant that they don’t believe that.

There is much in the Bible that every Christian church considers actual historical record, and one of those things is that there was a man called “Jesus Christ”, a contention for which there exists zero corroborating evidence beyond the (unreliable) Bible.

Comment #117: Chet  on  07/30  at  08:06 PM

Taking parts of it as being historically accurate does not mean taking it literally.  Figurative or metaphorical language can be used to describe actual historical events.

Comment #118: Ismone  on  07/30  at  08:24 PM

Taking parts of it as being historically accurate does not mean taking it literally.

Wait, what? Hang on a sec -

Taking parts of it as being historically accurate <strike>does not mean</strike> means taking parts of it literally.

Fixed it for you.

Comment #119: Ross  on  07/30  at  08:36 PM

Taking parts of it as being historically accurate does not mean taking it literally.

You must be operating from a wildly idiosyncratic definition of “historically accurate”, then. If I were to relay a story to your friends that I saw you stealing cars last Friday, and called it “historically accurate”, I suspect you would be non-plussed if you objected and I replied “well, not literally.”

I mean, what, are we applying the John McCain accuracy standard, here? In English, where words have certain meanings, to claim a written document is “historically accurate” is to assert that it is <i>literal history.” Or maybe you’re using “literally” in the same sense that some people say things like “he literally puts his ass on the line every day.”

I hate when people do that. Literally? His ass? Like, his real anus? On a line? The word you were looking for was “figuratively.”

The point is, the vast majority of Christians contend that Jesus was a real historical personage who ministered a new philosophy to Jews and Gentiles, and that his philosophy is accurately represented in the Bible. And why wouldn’t they? Events that actually transpired are significantly more meaningful than events that are fictional. Most people find the end of World War II much more significant than the end of the Clone Wars. And religion is nothing if not calling fictional stories truth in order to buttress their meaning.

Comment #120: Chet  on  07/30  at  09:04 PM

Zifnab, I have read your comments with interest, and I believe I see the problem; you’ve been choosing the wrong girls.

Comment #121: Older  on  07/30  at  09:16 PM

Wow.  this is like the proverbial argument about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

1. Religion is NOT reasonable.  Period.  Anyone claiming their “take” on any religious belief to be more reasonable than anyone else’s is self-delusional.  It’s about faith, folks.  That’s it.  If people 2000 years from now unearth a Doritos bag and claim it to be holy scripture, the person who thinks the ingredient list is a literal recipe for God is no more/less wacky than the person who sees it as a metaphor for the human condition.  The Bible isn’t open to interpretation.  the Bible IS interpretation.  Contradictory interpretation, by any standard you care to apply.

2. Historical accuracy/inaccuracy of the Bible is irrelevant.  Is the Doritos bag “historically accurate”?  Does it really matter?

3. Just because something is not predicated on reason or historical “truth” does not make it on-face bad.  Santa Claus?  Not a product of reason.  Not historically “true”.  Not on face “bad”.  You can do bad things with a belief in Santa, of course.  Just like you can do bad things with belief in God.  Or good things.  That’s the real difference I see between liberal and fundamentalist Christians.  The liberal Christians are trying to “tease out” the positive from the Bible, and apply it to life.  The fundamentalists are using the Bible as a blunt instrument of social control.  Same Bible.  Same God.  Both are totally outside of reason.  I definately would label the liberal outlook good, and the fundamenalist outlook bad.  But that too is rooted in my OWN non-rational belief in social justice.

4. My ex husband was the epitome of the string-along guy.  I rather like the comparason of the patrirachal god and the string-along guy.  It makes me smile.  Thank you, Amanda.

Comment #122: Neko Onna  on  07/30  at  09:27 PM

Of course, the 300-400 year (if I remember correctly) gap between Christ’s alleged death and the writing of the gospels may explain a lot.  And they also explain why taking the bible literally is rather foolish.
Ismone on 07/30 at 05:40 PM

no, you are thinking canonization.  (basically, collecting all scattered writing into one volume)

Constantine commissions Bibles
In 331, Constantine I commissioned Eusebius to deliver fifty Bibles for the Church of Constantinople. Athanasius (Apol. Const. 4) recorded Alexandrian scribes around 340 preparing Bibles for Constans. Little else is known, though there is plenty of speculation. For example, it is speculated that this may have provided motivation for canon lists, and that Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus are examples of these Bibles. Together with the Peshitta, these are the earliest extant Christian Bibles.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_seven_Ecumenical_Councils

The oldest new testament fragment dated back to around second century

We now have early and very early evidence for the text of the New Testament. A classified list of the most important manuscripts will make this clear. Numbers preceded by a P refer to papyri, the letters refer to parchment manuscripts.

ca. A.D.      200   250     300   350   450

Matthew           P45     B   Sin.   
Mark           P45     B   Sin.  A
Luke           P4,P45,P75   B   Sin.  A
John         P66   P45,P75     B   Sin.  A
Acts           P45     B   Sin.  A
Romans-Hebrews     P46         B   Sin.  A
James-Jude             P72,B   Sin.  A
Apocalypse         P47         Sin.  A

As you can see, from the fourth century onwards the material base for establishing the text of the Greek New Testament is very good indeed. The manuscripts Sin. (Sinaiticus), A (Alexandrinus) and B (Vaticanus) are almost complete parchment manuscripts. With the help of the earlier papyrus manuscripts we have been able to establish that the text of these three great manuscripts is to a large extent reliable. The papyrus manuscript P75 was the latest to be published, but it showed a virtually identical text to manuscript B. This settled the vexed question whether we have in the parchment manuscripts of the fourth and fifth centuries a safe guide to the original text of the New Testament. We have.

http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/papyrus/texts/manuscripts.html

Comment #123: Papyrus  on  07/30  at  10:03 PM

Zifnab, I have read your comments with interest, and I believe I see the problem; you’ve been choosing the wrong girls.

:-p Probably.

Comment #124: Zifnab25  on  07/31  at  10:59 AM

Chet,

Figurative or metaphorical language can be used to describe a historical event.  You can believe the event happened (the underlying fact) without believing all the words in the sentence to be literally true.  I cannot explain it any more simply then that.  (cue random-ass rant about epistemology.)

Neko Onno,

To some people, historical accuracy matters a great deal.  To others, it does not.

But I really do not understand why people fail to see that an interpretation of a written work is more valid if it is based on a linguistic, contextual, and literary analysis.  If the goal of interpreting a written work is to understand what the writer meant to say, then whether the work is the Bible or the Aeneid, the person who uses an understanding of the original language, the historical context, and the literary forms in use at the time, will have A BETTER INTERPRETATION.

Papyrus, I corrected myself after Seraph corrected me.

Comment #125: Ismone  on  07/31  at  11:24 AM

You can believe the event happened (the underlying fact) without believing all the words in the sentence to be literally true.

If you can’t believe any of the words that constitute a sentence describing history, then I don’t see from what basis you can conclude that it actually was history.

I’ll repeat - no major branch of Christianity holds that the Bible is entirely figurative, as Opoponax suggests. That’s a truly idiotic statement. Every major branch of Christianity contends that at least part of the Bible is meant to relay actual history; specifically, the life and crucifixion of Jesus. No major branch believes that Jesus is a fictional character and that the crucifixion wasn’t a historical event. Indeed it’s hard to imagine how you could be a Christian who believes in a fictional Jesus - to be Christian means to be a “little Christ.” How can you follow in the footsteps of someone who you believe never existed; whose philosophy you believe is an invention of a committee?

If the goal of interpreting a written work is to understand what the writer meant to say,

As a former English major I can assure you that this is often not the goal of interpreting a work. There’s no reason it has to be, because the intent of the author towards a work is only one aspect of the work’s significance and meaning. The work’s relationship with its audience is often considerably more important.

The simple fact is that the reason the Bible is so often employed to defend bigotry and slavery is because that’s the clearest, plainest reading. To interpret the Bible in a liberal, progressive way, you’re either ignoring vast passages wholesale or you’re proposing knowledge about original context and linguistic legedermain that you can’t possibly know. People believe that the Bible is anti-gay because the Bible describes gay sex as an abomination punishable by death (in several places). To pretend otherwise you have to contend that “abomination” isn’t meant to sound as bad as it does, that those passages “don’t count”, or that “men using men as women” describes some other phenomenon.

It’s pretty stupid. And needless. Why wouldn’t the Bible be anti-gay? Why wouldn’t the Bible be a container for idiot bigotry? Because that’s not the God you believe in?

What the fuck does that have to do with it?

Comment #126: Chet  on  07/31  at  11:45 AM

Figurative or metaphorical language can be used to describe a historical event.  You can believe the event happened (the underlying fact) without believing all the words in the sentence to be literally true.

Not to mention that you can believe that some part of a text is literally true, but not that supporting parts of the document are all literally true.  This is where the folks who really due claim to believe in the bible literally run into trouble, because such a claim would assume that you think the Song of Songs is a practical guide to deer breeding.  And, yeah, folks like that do exist—I remember reading some fundy blog somewhere, probably via a liberal blo scorning these sorts of folks, wherein someone read a psalm that contained a bit of poetic embellishment about red cloaks keeping ones family warm in winter to mean that the color red makes a garment warmer than other identical garments.  Rather than this line simply being a metaphor for the being richly and comfortably clad.  THAT sort of “literal” is the extreme fringe of Christianity, yes.

I grew up Episcopalian, and we were taught in sunday school that we shouldn’t think that Genesis means the world was created literally in 6 24-hour days, with the plants being created on one day,  the animals on another, etc.  This account, we were told, is a literary device.  A metaphor, if you will.  Or possibly a story that ancient people told themselves about how the world was created, because they didn’t have the technology to know the things we know nowadays (just as .  But Genesis is certainly under no circumstances meant to be taken word for word literal.  And Episcopalian is about as mainstream Christian as it gets, one of the largest Christian denominations in the US.

Comment #127: The Opoponax  on  07/31  at  12:25 PM

But will reading The Silmarillion in the original Fëanorian answer the musical question, was Jesus speaking in parables a parable?

Comment #128: Ken Cope  on  07/31  at  12:30 PM

Also, I’d be more willing to apologize for all the asshole men that string a girl along for a few free rides, if I hadn’t spent days and weeks trying to romance girls who inevitably come back and announce they really just want to be friends.

“Trying to romance” is what is killing you, dude. Be interesting and interested in other people, and close relationships will form. “Romance” is fake-ass corporatized marketing shit that is guaranteed to make you undesirable to exactly the people you would want to form relationships with.

Comment #129: PhysioProf  on  07/31  at  12:38 PM

But I really do not understand why people fail to see that an interpretation of a written work is more valid if it is based on a linguistic, contextual, and literary analysis.  If the goal of interpreting a written work is to understand what the writer meant to say, then whether the work is the Bible or the Aeneid, the person who uses an understanding of the original language, the historical context, and the literary forms in use at the time, will have A BETTER INTERPRETATION.

Chet has a good point about the gap between authorial intent and actual usage and interpretation, although I see your point, and I don’t think anybody would substantially disagree with what you say in a general sense.

The (vast) difference that you, and everyone else in the “close reading/subtle shades of meaning” crowd seem to be (willfully?) missing, is that, after you argue that you have the better version of belief because you’ve studied the Bible with the same tools that literature and history professors have studied the Aeneid, you turn around and say that we shouldn’t treat the Bible like the Aeneid.

Now, maybe those exact words haven’t come out of your mouth (keyboards?), but if your defense of belief (or hierarchies of the rightness of belief) is that the existence of God can’t be questioned because you already know which portions of the Bible are metaphorical, and which parts are “historical but not literal”, then you’re protecting certain (very important) portions of the Bible from analysis that you have not done with the Aeneid. No history professor would say that, sure, a lot of these stories are made up, and some of these events and characters may not have existed or be meant to provide us with guidance in the modern world, but don’t question the part about the Greek Gods.

This is the sort of “finer points” hand waiving that PZ and Dawkins decried (esp. PZ’s courtier’s response). It doesn’t matter how long you can talk about the hermeneutics of goat herding in the bronze age, or whether Jesus went to hell or the land of the dead, when the’res no evidence for a God in the first place.

And isn’t it interesting that this careful study and understanding of the Bible always seems to discard as irrelevant, metaphorical or mythological only those portions of the Bible that don’t pass muster with today’s liberal thinking? Awfully convenient.

Comment #130: mothworm  on  07/31  at  01:20 PM

Mothworm,

I have no problem with anyone treating the Bible like the Aeneid.  None at all.  I would be fascinated to read (and have read) texts that treat god in the bible with no more reverance than the gods in the Aeneid. 

I do have a problem with certain believers claiming that there is textual support for their beliefs when there is not, and the claim that all readings of the bible are equally uninformed. 

I also think that anyone who wishes to could and should question God’s existence.  And I have no quarrel with them if they reach a different conclusion than I do.  I have always believed that faith would be valueless if there was proof.  Yes, that puts faith outside the realm of rationality, and if someone wants to think that rationality is all there is—well, that is very “rational” of them, and I have no interest in proving them wrong.  And I can understand why it makes them kind of pissy, because it takes the whole thing out of the realm of argument. 

Chet’s gotcha about lit crit is so much sturm und drang.  Of course the author’s intent is not the end-all be-all if you are trying to enjoy a work.  But, on the other hand, if you believe the author is trying to tell you some great truth, language, translation, historical context, and literary forms all become very important.  If I want to know what DeBeauvoir or Foucault THOUGHT, and meant to communicate, the best way to do that is to read it in the original or read a good translation with lots of notes.  And to know something about the language usage and writing styles of the time.  Knowing what philosophers influenced them also helps.  That doesn’t mean that someone couldn’t come up with a beautifully poetic (but in some ways, inaccurate) translation of either writer.  Perhaps the beautiful translation, or perhaps my own misunderstanding of what the author meant to communicate, could lead me to an insight that the author did not have, or could not put to words that would be valuable and lead to some form of intellectual enlightenment. 

But that is not what I am talking about.  Believers claim they want to know what the author was trying to communicate.  What I am talking about is whether, as written, the bible was even meant to be taken literally.  I contend that the answer is no, based on the contradictions in the text (7-days vs. instantaneous creation, for one), the literary styles of the time, etc.  (I.e., apocalyptic literature, Esther as a novel, and an allegory for the suffering of the Jews, with no known historical support.)

Comment #131: Ismone  on  07/31  at  02:13 PM

Mothworm,

Yeah, it is kind of convenient.  Here is how I break down my interpretation of the bible 1) certain passages (i.e., apocrypha, multiple retellings of the same story) were either not meant to be taken literally or are mutually exclusive; 2) certain passages (i.e., Leviticus) were rejected by the modern Christian faith because Christ was the ‘bringer of the new law’; and 3) certain passages, even in the gospels, which are not contradicted by other gospels (i.e., lying with a man . . .) reflect philosophical attitudes of the time, i.e., the Greek disdain for the body.

Category 3 is very convenient, I admit.  It is the reason why some other Catholics call people like me “cafeteria Catholics.”  But even if something is inspired by God, I was taught that my own conscience is the tie-breaker.  It is something of a struggle, though, because I am self-critical enough to wonder if my tie to Christianity/Catholicism is only because I was taught it at a young age, and if now, I conveniently only adopt those beliefs that I would have adopted without this religious teaching.  Is faith worth anything if it only means I believe what I want to believe?  Or is that too cynical an analysis of my own beliefs?  I certainly believe things that are inconvenient for me to believe.

Comment #132: Ismone  on  07/31  at  02:20 PM

To some people, historical accuracy matters a great deal.  To others, it does not.

But why?  Even if you could conclusively prove Jesus existed, it doesn’t make him God.  The God part is faith.  Similarly, if I disproved it all tomorrow, millions, no billions of people would continue to believe. 

Sure, you can use literary interpretation tools to decide “authorial intent”, too, but again, that doesn’t make your reading MORE RATIONAL.

A religious text, interpreted as such and used as a basis for religious worship is not and can not be rational.  If you go back to Amanda’s post, she talks about the liberal Christian belief that theirs is a more “reasonable” interpretation of the Bible.  Reason= rational thought.  NO interpretation of the Bible can be based on rational thought, because at the end, EVERY interpretation forces you to believe, on faith, that God exists.  That is an irrational belief.  Whether you prop up that irrational belief with pseudoscientific readings of the Bible, or deep literary analysis of it is irrelevant.

The Bible is particularly difficult, even from a literary point of view, because it has been interpreted and reinterpreted, taken from the spoken to the written, its parts were penned in totally different times and places, and the form we have today was cobbled together arbitrarily from a larger body of related works in the name of self-interest.  Even if you don’t look at it as a basis for religious belief, its pretty hard to say that it can be understood as a cohesive body of works.

Go back to my Doritos bag.  What if it wasn’t just one Doritos bag, but bits and pieces of many different Doritos bags, combined with a few scraps of Lay’s Potato Chips bags, and had been reassembled by a comittee that existed hundreds of years after the last Dorito had been eaten, and the comittee was really more concerned with creating a document that legitimized itself than really reconstructing a “true” Doritos bag.  That’s the Bible.

Comment #133: Neko Onna  on  07/31  at  02:20 PM

…if I let myself believe anything on insufficient evidence, there may be no great harm done by the mere belief; it may be true after all, or I may never have occasion to exhibit it in outward acts. But I cannot help doing this great wrong towards Man, that I make myself credulous. The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things, though that is great enough; but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them; for then it must sink back into savagery.

—W. K. Clifford 1879

Comment #134: Ken Cope  on  07/31  at  02:53 PM

Neko Onno,

As I wrote to mothworm:

“I do have a problem with certain believers claiming that there is textual support for their beliefs when there is not, and the claim that all readings of the bible are equally uninformed.”

Textual support for some claims, no textual support for others.  If someone is saying their belief comes from a text, but the text doesn’t say what they claim it does, they are WRONG about what the text says.

Take your doritos bag/biblical analysis and apply it to which Macbeth folio is “more accurate.”  Or “the true Macbeth.”  Dunno.  But there are better and worse arguments.  And if the truth you are seeking is, what did the dorito bag author mean to communicate—you probably want to know what “partially hydrogenated whatever oil” means.  (Just like I REALLLY WISH some of my protestant brethren and sistren would learn the difference between Gehenna and Sheol.  See upthread.)

Comment #135: Ismone  on  07/31  at  02:55 PM

Ken Cope,

I see your (and Clifford’s) point, I really do.  Which is why I believe very strongly in separating faith from rationality, and also theoretical thinking from theory.  Sometimes we know things that we cannot prove.  If we are too focused on embracing rationality, which for most, is a system of thought, we may devalue keen insights that cannot be immediately subjected to proof.

I also do not think that if religion were entirely out of the picture that people wouldn’t put the same sloppy magical thinking into another box.  Like say, politics.  I think that people’s bad behavior arising out of religious belief really isn’t different then their bad behavior arising out of any beliefs that allow them, if they want, to think that they are superior.

Is religion more harmful because it is more pervasive?  If we (being all humans) stopped believing in god(s)/higher power, would we find some other box for this behavior?  I think so.  This is theorizing based on incomplete information about humanity, not faith, btw.

Comment #136: Ismone  on  07/31  at  03:06 PM

It is something of a struggle, though, because I am self-critical enough to wonder if my tie to Christianity/Catholicism is only because I was taught it at a young age, and if now, I conveniently only adopt those beliefs that I would have adopted without this religious teaching.

This is wahat I keep wondering about people who join these threads and complain about atheist criticisms of Christianity by going on and on about the “inneffible God” (not that you were doing this); this amorphous being with no real qualities or discernable affect. What good is that god? What does a beleif in that add to a life that you would be living the same way without him?

I, like Amanda, am happy to have liberal Christians on our side, but too often, “on our side” ends up meaning “Against the fundies, and while we’re at it, stop criticising religion”.  From our perspective, irrational belief is irrational belief. Supporting gay rights because you think God says so doesn’t have any more firm footing than being against it for the same reason.

I think that’s the problem with the authorial intent argument. Who do you think is the author? Ancient nomads? Then what does that tell you about anything other than what ancient nomads thought about? God? Then you’re begging the question.

And if you, or other believers think the author is God (in any sense, whether the Bible was dictated or inspired), you’re back at the problem of all interpretations being equally valid, because context is meaningless when applied to a supreme being. If God said it, then the fundies are right and you pretty much have to take it at face value. If God “inspired” it, and it’s mostly just the myths and legends of goatherders, then what difference does it make anyway, because God clearly does not care enough about you or what you do to supply any sort of credible information about himself to his believers.

Comment #137: mothworm  on  07/31  at  03:20 PM

Mothworm,

My point in being here is that I think an interpretation based on context and linguistics is superior.  She is saying that liberal and fundy interpretations are of equal value.

Even if the author is God, the author wrote the original text, so the meaning of the original text is highly important.  Otherwise there would be no reason for a text, people could just pray to god(s)/higher power and get their marching orders there.  It is especially important because some believers USE THE TEXT TO JUSTIFY BELIEFS, and the text does not say what they think it does.

Comment #138: Ismone  on  07/31  at  03:37 PM

“Even if the author is God, the author wrote the original text, so the meaning of the original text is highly important.”

Though I do know some believers who believe that context isn’t necessary, because God (being timeless) *also* wrote the bible to be understood based on the context of our time and the interpretations that come most naturally to modern humans (some go as far as to say that the King James English translation was also inspired by God).

So given that belief, the fundy interpretation would not be less valid than interpretations that take historical context into account.

Comment #139: Brandon  on  07/31  at  04:36 PM

Every generation has said they had the obvious, valid interpretation of the Bible. If the author of the book is a supreme being, what matter could context have? What context is there for a being that exists outside of human interaction or understanding? What do you compare it to?

It just doesn’t make any sense to me to say that God wrote the Bible, and that through careful study you’ve determined that 80 or 90% of what He wrote wasn’t meant to be taken seriously. I would think that a creature that created all known existence would also be able to write a book with enough clarity that his followers didn’t spend the next 2000 years tearing each other apart over cavils.

Comment #140: mothworm  on  07/31  at  04:59 PM

Textual support for some claims, no textual support for others.  If someone is saying their belief comes from a text, but the text doesn’t say what they claim it does, they are WRONG about what the text says.

But what does that have to do with anything, religion-wise?  It’s not what he text says that is important,it is what people believe it to say that matters.  You could go on until you are blue in the face about the difference between “Hell” and “sheul”, but when in the end, the whole thing comes down to believing God exists and wants you to do something, the point is moot. If I read the Doritos bag, and believe it is telling me to literally assemble the ingredients to Doritos and pray to them on an altar, or if I believe that “annato coloring” is code for “God wants you to live every day in a colorful, vibrant way”, it doesn’t really matter, does it?  Both are totally irrational readings, as they both hinge on the irrational beliefe in the divine.  Now, I could say the person who misunderstands what “annato coloring” is, and thinks it’s some sort of reference to a bioweapon is misreading the actual words, but their conclusion- “lets kill all the nonbelievers with bioweapons” isn’t more or less irrational than any other interpretation. I would classify it as a “bad” interpretation, using my own moral/ethical beliefs, but it really isn’t more irrational, per se.

Even if the author is God, the author wrote the original text, so the meaning of the original text is highly important.  Otherwise there would be no reason for a text, people could just pray to god(s)/higher power and get their marching orders there.

Um, they do this all the time.  Anyone else remember Oral Roberts’ conversation with God about him needing to raise 80 million dollars, or he’d be “called home” to Jesus? Whole religious offshoots start this way- Smith’s “revelation” from the Angel Moroni about the golden plates?  There is NO REASON for a text.  Woo needs no text, it only needs belief.  The text is simply there to use as a convenient tool for political maneuvering, to keep people who are a little more critical in line, and to help form the “church” in the way the writers/supporters/interpreters of the text see fit. 

Take your doritos bag/biblical analysis and apply it to which Macbeth folio is “more accurate.” Or “the true Macbeth.” Dunno.  But there are better and worse arguments.  And if the truth you are seeking is, what did the dorito bag author mean to communicate—you probably want to know what “partially hydrogenated whatever oil” means.

If someone founded a Church of Shakespeare, and claimed Macbeth to be an apocalyptic vision, while another group of “Bardians” claimed it to be an argument against forming nuclear families, which would be more rational?  Does the actual “intent” of the author matter any more?  does the definition of the word “thane” really matter at that point?  You either believe this is some sort of message from the divine, or you don’t.  If you believe it to be a message from the divine, to be acted upon as a form of worship or proof of your worth, or because it is “right” in the eyes of God, your interpretation is irrational.  If you look at it as a work of literature, penned by a mortal person, which may/may not have some deeper philosophical meaning, you are looking at it rationally.  Rational is not necessarily superior to irrational, but they ARE different.

Comment #141: Neko Onna  on  07/31  at  05:02 PM

Brandon,

“Though I do know some believers who believe that context isn’t necessary, because God (being timeless) *also* wrote the bible to be understood based on the context of our time and the interpretations that come most naturally to modern humans (some go as far as to say that the King James English translation was also inspired by God).

So given that belief—”

See, I do not take that as a given.  A lot of sects who really like King James and are uncritical are completely unwilling to concede that it is inaccurate.  If you convince them of that, because some of their important religious doctrine is based on a faulty translation, watch the heads explode.  I see the head-exploding as valuable because (1) well, it is kind of fun, and I’m not perfect; and (2) it gets rid of some theology that I see as problematic.  Meaning, I think it has negative affects on how these Christians feel entitled to believe in the real world.

Mothworm,

Context matters because they claim to validily understand the TEXT.  Aside from Catholics and their ilk, many other Christian religions do not believe in extra-biblical sources of doctrine.  (Leaving aside for a moment Mormons, since they have a more modern text.) 

I do not think that taking something seriously is the same as taking something literally.  Perhaps we differ there.

Neko Onna, (sorry, think I’ve been misspelling your name!)

Ah, but what the text says matters to them.  They think their beliefs are valid because of the nature of the text (divine/divinely inspired.)  So if you can poke holes in what they think, it matters a great deal.  It might make them question!  And realize that even the bible is not a neat instruction book, it requires critical engagement.  This questioning may cause them to leave their faith and criticize mine.  I am okay with that, because it means they are thinking.

While I agree with you that religions do not necessarily need text, this post is all about various interpretations of a text, the bible.  I disagree with Amanda that they are all equally invalid.

The “intent” matters if the believers claim it matters.  Then, by discussing “intent” with them, you can introduce an element of criticality to their thought process.  Christians very much profess to believe that intent matters.

I see your larger point that people will believe crazy things, and because religion claims to be something of a rationality-free zone, it feeds into this problem.  But my point is that even though the ultimate belief in God is the same (well, sort of, not that we believe in the same god, but that we do not believe god’s existence can be disproven), Catholics and non-fundamentalist Christians take a much more rational approach toward the text, and this healthy skepticism means that some of the harsher, more authoritarian interpreations of the bible are undermined based on what we know about the writers, linguistics, blah, blah.

Comment #142: Ismone  on  07/31  at  05:25 PM

I’m just saying that if the Bible is really the word of God, and that the liberal interpretation is the correct one, shouldn’t he have been clearer about that? Mass slaughter of unbelievers, stoning gays and disobedient children to death, offering up wives and daughters to be raped by mobs—none of this seems to have bothered god one whit the first time around. He never told the ancient Israelites to knock off with all the smiting. Which means that either the people who wrote the Bible had no idea what the god they believed in was talking about (and that god didn’t care enough to correct them), or that god didn’t know what he was talking about either. Or perhaps, god has changed his mind since then? Seems a little hard to determine, since, as Amanda pointed out, he hasn’t returned any calls in 2000 years.

Comment #143: mothworm  on  07/31  at  05:55 PM

Ismone,

That’s true, and I can see how that can be useful. I guess my concern is in regards to your goal:

“(2) it gets rid of some theology that I see as problematic.  Meaning, I think it has negative affects on how these Christians feel entitled to believe in the real world.”

And how to achieve this goal when their theology *is* completely consistent with their basic religious assumptions, and can’t be undermined by pointing out internal contradictions or empirical falsehoods. It seems like the only real way is to attack the basic irrational beliefs themselves. So while I think the textual arguments you can make are valuable, it’s important in the process not to send the message that any belief that *is* consistent with their text is acceptable.

Comment #144: Brandon  on  07/31  at  05:59 PM

I believe very strongly in separating faith from rationality,

Good! So do I.

and also theoretical thinking from theory.

If you could expand on that, I can’t glean any authorial intent from it or its context.

Sometimes we know things that we cannot prove.

No. That would be knowing something in the not mode. It may be a way of getting that same feeling you associate with knowing something, but it is not the same thing at all as knowing something. CF, provisional assent to current reigning consensus, subject to new/better observations/evidence/theoretical basis. To the extent that science “knows” anything, “proof” is a notion as badly opportunistically mangled as “theory.”

If we are too focused on embracing rationality, which for most, is a system of thought, we may devalue keen insights that cannot be immediately subjected to proof.

And without rationality, how can we evaluate whether or not it’s a keen insight, or the rarebit I ate last night in honor of Winsor McCay? Some months ago, a young person confided in me that he’d taken mushrooms for the first time, and he was excited to tell me “that he’d gotten an epiphany and everything!” I had to tell him there’s an epiphany in every dose; that’s part of the purpose of the exercise, that an epiphany is a reliably predictable event when your brain is flooded with serotonin analogs. Until I spoke with Oscar Janiger, I would have taken his documentation of the impressions of hundreds of artists and writers who took LSD from him in the 50s, that they were at one with the universe, to be a form of proof that they actually were, until he reminded me that the fact that the feeling was so readily triggered by an alteration in brain chemistry made that feeling something every bit as unlikely to be descriptive of an actual or anthropomorphized connection with cosmic consciousness. Having an orgasm or listening to moving music, or feeling caught up in something outside of oneself, or experiencing a feeling that Carl Sagan called the “apperception of the numinous” are ways of feeling, rather than ways of knowing. I’m not impressed when people try to conflate feelings with “alternative ways of knowing.”

Is religion more harmful because it is more pervasive?

Yes, when it displaces the capacity to think critically. Here’s some more Clifford:

If a man holding a belief which he was taught in childhood or persuaded of afterwards keeps down and pushes away any doubts which arise about it in his mind, purposely avoids the reading of books and the company of men that call in question or discuss it, and regards as impious those questions which cannot easily be asked without disturbing it—the life of that man is one long sin against mankind.

Now, feel free to come back at me with some William James—what you want to do with your attitude toward reality is your business, and I respect it, both in the Jeffersonian sense and in the sense that I respect somebody who has let themselves be convinced by Deepak Chopra that their mind can control space and time while operating a moving vehicle. Your scriptural, textual analysis looks to me as if it only feeds some need to feel like you have better reasons for your unsupportable beliefs than somebody else.

Comment #145: Ken Cope  on  07/31  at  06:05 PM

I see your larger point that people will believe crazy things, and because religion claims to be something of a rationality-free zone, it feeds into this problem.  But my point is that even though the ultimate belief in God is the same (well, sort of, not that we believe in the same god, but that we do not believe god’s existence can be disproven), Catholics and non-fundamentalist Christians take a much more rational approach toward the text, and this healthy skepticism means that some of the harsher, more authoritarian interpreations of the bible are undermined based on what we know about the writers, linguistics, blah, blah.

This, I think, is where the confusion stems from.  I’m not saying (and Amanda wasn’t either, I don’t think), that there aren’t “preferable” readings of the Bible.  As I have maintained, I definately DO group different interpretations into “good” and “bad” acording to my own irrational belief system.  But ALL interpretations that see the Bible as ultimately “God’s word” are Irrational.  Irrational=“without the faculty of reason; deprived of reason.” Rational=“proceeding or derived from reason or based on reasoning: a rational explanation.” Nothing in the Bible (or anyplace else, for that matter) ever tells us how we can KNOW it is the “Word of God”, it simply claims to be so.  If you accept that, you accept it on faith and NOT on reason. Period.  So while I agree Liberal Christians are fighting the “good” fight in trying to back fundamentalists off of their very rigid and dogmatic interpretations of the Bible, Liberal interpretations are no more “reasonable” or “rational” than fundamentalist interpretations.

Literary critics/scholars who look to the Bible as a work of literature, and who try to understand it as such are using rational methoods of interpretation.  They do not always work backwords from the claim, “The Bible is the word of God, therefore it must have meaning.”  They work forward from the assumption, “The Bible is a work of literature, which may/may not have one “true” meaning, and the meaning it has is to be found in it’s words, and the context in which those words were written.”  If you find yourself doing the latter, and you don’t accept the divine inspiration of the Bible as an article of faith, I’d dare say you are approaching Christianity as an academic discipline or a philosophy, not a religion.

Comment #146: Neko Onna  on  07/31  at  06:24 PM

Neko Onna,

I think you can separate the irrationality of believing it is God’s word from a rational approach to what that word is.  In other words, even those irrationals, like me, who believe something like that (I’m in the divinely inspired camp), can still rationally discuss what the actual text means.  It matters to you, because you are purely rational, and it matters to me, because although for irrational reasons, I want to know what it means.  What the speaker was actually saying.

So I am trying to separate the source from the text.  Most Christians want to believe that they are rationally interpreting the text.  Some of us actually are.  Faith is what gives the text meaning, to me, beyond the meaning that is found in other literary works.  Not that they do not persuade me to change my view of the world/morality.

Ken Cope,

“both in the Jeffersonian sense and in the sense that I respect somebody who has let themselves be convinced by Deepak Chopra that their mind can control space and time while operating a moving vehicle”

I appreciate the former, the latter, not so much. 

On theoretical thinking—I mean the ability many of us have to work things out before we have proof, or sometimes without understanding the math.  I’ve mostly played around in biology, and lesser extent in physics, and I’ve come up with (sadly, thus far, other people’s) theories before I had all the information necessary to prove them.  Like that conservation of mass isn’t technically true (it is really conservation of mass/energy—the weight of a compound is NOT exactly equal to the sum of its molecules).  Hell, math itself is a collective delusion.  (Now, I want to be very clear about this, I am not saying that God = math.  We know math is useful for explaining things in the rational world, and is almost necessary to do so, plenty of people live fullfilled moral & intellectual lives without God.)

I’m not familiar with William James.  And I’m not disagreeing with you about the dangers of non-rational thought in the religious realm. 

Do you think in the absence of religion, we would make up some other form of non-rational thought, or at least, engage in the same sloppy thinking it engenders?  In other words, is this a human problem that infects our interaction with religion?

Brandon,

That is a really good point.  I don’t really have a complete answer.  The best I can do is say that most believers want to believe the text is good, and you can engage people about discussions of goodness, and the values underlying the bible.  But that is more practical advice for changing minds; it really doesn’t address the underlying problem you’ve identified.

Do you think this issue applies to other “true believers”?  (I.e., the dread economists I always want to smack for thinking the free market “solves” everything.  I think it solves everything in the same way that evolution does.)

Mothworm,

While the early Christians tried to live their lives like Jews, I do not think they tried to live like Israelites.  I also do not know what the relationship was between the people who originally passed on those stories and the stories themselves.  I.e., from the Aeneid, do we know what percent of Greeks and Romans believed in the Gods?  Were there just as many Atheists back then as now?  Fewer, because faith has more traction in a world that seems so arbitrary and uncontrollable?  More, because philosophy filled some of that need for explaining the world?  Do we know if the early listeners to the texts that eventually became the bible recognized the texts as metaphor, or saw them as literal truth?  How do we judge a belief system or religion—by what its least conversant followers think (i.e., all those dumb Nietschze spouting hacks, or the flat earth society) or by its own doctrine?

Comment #147: Ismone  on  07/31  at  07:09 PM

I think you can separate the irrationality of believing it is God’s word from a rational approach to what that word is.

But you don’t.

So I am trying to separate the source from the text.  Most Christians want to believe that they are rationally interpreting the text.  Some of us actually are. Faith is what gives the text meaning, to me, beyond the meaning that is found in other literary works. Not that they do not persuade me to change my view of the world/morality.

You seperate the “source” from the “text”, but you go on to conclude the text has special meaning, despite what the words say, because of your faith in the source.  That is the VERY DEFINITION OF IRRATIONAL I put out earlier.
 
The Epic of Gilgamesh, which is really similar to the Bible in a lot of particulars, has no special meaning to the “faithful”, even though it says many of the same things as the Bible, in much the same style. It is not the word of “God”, so the “faithful” don’t puzzle over the flood, and try to prove it really happened.  They don’t try to read anything special into the relationship between Gilgamesh and Enkidu as an early sanction for homosexual relationships. But really, if all that mattered was the words and their meanings, why not? 

Because when you start off with the premise that something is the “Word of God”, you aren’t in fact, just going to rationally read it, and find the meaning in the words.  The meaning will be in the belief that it is the “Word of God”.

Comment #148: Neko Onna  on  07/31  at  07:51 PM

The significance I give the meaning is different then the meaning itself.

If I say it is the word of god, the question then becomes, what does the word say.

Comment #149: Ismone  on  07/31  at  10:37 PM

The significance I give the meaning is different then the meaning itself.

What the hell does this even mean?

Comment #150: Ross  on  07/31  at  11:09 PM

Okay, let me parse it our for you, with an example.

Christ descended into the land of the dead.  You and I can discuss this sentence.  We can discuss what words were used in the original text.  We can discuss the source text, and the literary forms that were popular at the time the source text was written.  We can discuss whether from those cues, the original author was speaking literally or figuratively.  We can discuss its consistency with the other accounts, and use that to shape our view of the author(s), and the editors that chose to present the two texts together.

Entirely separately from that, I can believe that sentence is part of a religious text inspired by God, and you can believe the sentence is part of Christian mythology.

The difference between fundamentalist theology and more liberal christian theology (the majority) which is not as literal-minded, is that you and I can have an intelligent, equal discussion about what the text I revere actually means. 

That is the difference between trying to extract meaning from the text based on the author’s intent, and the author’s actual words.  Since religions claim to be textual, my argument all along has been that fundamentalist theology is inferior, and liberal theology is less damaging, because, to an extent it can be reasoned with.  That is why I disagree with Amanda.

Comment #151: Ismone  on  07/31  at  11:22 PM

Sometimes we know things that we cannot prove.

Sometimes they cannot be proved because they’re not, in fact, true. Reasonable people should be very suspicious of the things they think they “know but cannot prove.”

Yeah, yeah, “but you can’t prove you love your wife.” Well, not true. I can prove to myself that I love her simply by feeling love, and I can provide evidence of it to others by my actions. It’s really never a good idea to think that you “know something you cannot prove.” You actually don’t know anything of the kind.

Comment #152: Chet  on  07/31  at  11:57 PM

“Do you think this issue applies to other “true believers”?  (I.e., the dread economists I always want to smack for thinking the free market “solves” everything.  I think it solves everything in the same way that evolution does.)”

I’d say it mostly applies. The main difference is that (for non-spiritual beliefs) they usually believe that whatever belief their dedicated to is based on rationality and evidence, and so if they’re intelligent they can be made to question it simply by pointing out ways in which it isn’t rational or based in evidence.

With religion though, someone can be very intelligent, realize that it’s irrational, lacking evidence, sometimes even at odds with generally accepted morality, and still accept it, because for them the whole *point* is that it isn’t rational.

Comment #153: Brandon  on  08/01  at  12:07 AM

Chet,

If I were telling you not to be suspicious, you might have a point.

Brandon,

Have you ever argued with an economist?  (Kidding, I just cannot stand Posner.)  Also, like I asked Ken Cope, if there was not religion, do you think people would put that irrationality in a different box?  Are most people “rational” about their political or moral beliefs—-or have you found, as I have, that most have sacred cows and will become enraged if you question them, no matter how politely?

Comment #154: Ismone  on  08/01  at  12:30 AM

Okay, this is just too funny.  One of the two “Ads by Google” I see right now reads:

God Jehovah

Find Low Prices On God Jehovah. 
Compare Products, Prices & Stores.

(Why pay sticker price, people! LOL.)

Comment #155: Ismone  on  08/01  at  12:33 AM

“Are most people “rational” about their political or moral beliefs—-or have you found, as I have, that most have sacred cows and will become enraged if you question them, no matter how politely?”

Oh, not at all. But most of those people want to *believe* that they’re rational in holding those beliefs, and if you try to show them that those beliefs are not rational it’s more likely to force them to question them - still not very likely, but moreso than with faith beliefs, where irrationality isn’t even a mark against it. That’s why I think it’s harder to argue people out of harmful religious beliefs than harmful beliefs which are irrational, but which they consider (and depend on) being rational.

Comment #156: Brandon  on  08/01  at  12:47 AM

Okay this is getting ridiculous. At this point, doesn’t it start to feel like learning the intricacies of Christian theology requires the same level of academic rigour and OCD as studying Star Trek? In practical terms, it amounts to the same thing, except, you know, people don’t kill each other in the name of Kirk. I mean Picard. Shit!

Or maybe I’m tired of stating, or seeing some like minded people state, some very plain spoken points and having to argue the damned* margins again and again and again.

*Note to the literal minded. I do not actually believe in damnation.

Comment #157: Ross  on  08/01  at  02:55 AM

I know I promised myself I’d stay out of these threads, but I just had to make the hit-and-run observation that in some ways I think good old-fashioned fundy obscurantism is actually less unhealthy than the dishonest logical contortions and Humpty-Dumpty word-chopping of the “religious liberals”. People can and do recover from fundy upbringings to become clear thinkers once they’re exposed to the world outside the fundy cocoon. But “liberal” metal masturbation seem to cause permanent brain damage.

Comment #158: Steve LaBonne  on  08/01  at  10:09 AM

Are most people “rational” about their political or moral beliefs—-or have you found, as I have, that most have sacred cows and will become enraged if you question them, no matter how politely?

The contention is, they do that because they’ve already had a lot of practice in doing it, thanks to religion.

A world where we don’t give religion a pass for being completely irrational is a world where there’s a lot less cover for irrationality of all kinds - supply-side economics, philosophy, Star Wars prequels, etc.

Comment #159: Chet  on  08/01  at  10:57 AM

Okay this is getting ridiculous.

I rather doubt that consensus is really even possible here. Ismone is essentially arguing that her turd sandwich recipe is “better” than others, because hers uses fresh ground Hungarian paprika while the fundies use the nasty stuff off the shelf at Lo-Bill. That’s certainly true, as far as it goes, but it’s not likely to be all that compelling to those of us who don’t think that people really ought be be eating such offal in the first place.

What this really emphasizes, I think, is that modern “liberal” Christianity is far more of an aesthetic tradition then a movement that seeks to define and enforce what is literally true. I’ve described it in the past as likening the Bible not to an instruction manual or blueprint, but rather to a treasure map - who cares if it is “true” - it’s just a representation, not meant to be taken literally, and besides - it did in fact lead me right to the treasure! Liberal Christians are far more interested in the experience of God than the reality of God - sometimes we atheist Crusaders forget this, and we all end up talking right past each other.

All that’s fine, as far as I’m concerned anyway, but I do think that it’s a pity that we all can’t be more honest about it, in the same way that we all (well, most of us) admit that there is really no fundamental representational reality that allows us to declare that, say, Feta rulez but Gouda sux. Contra Plato, there is no ideal Cheese Form - and so it is with God as well.

And it’s kind of a shame to see intelligent and well-meaning folks who self-identify as liberal non-fundy Christians engaging in biblical apologetics (as opposed to biblical anthropology). Such activity is really inherently defensive - an anthropologist studying the Old Testament has no reason to bat an eye when she reads the description of God commanding Joshua’s army to dash the brains of the infidel infants against the rocks, but someone who can’t/won’t let go of the conceit that God “exists” and that He is “good” and the he “loves” us immediately has to say “oh, wait - that can’t be right”, and then feels compelled to explain or fix it. They are like Sudoku puzzlers who notice that the numbers never seem to add up, only they refuse to even consider the possibility that the puzzle itself might be defective, or that they might be better served by putting the damn thing down and doing something more productive. No, they insist, if they can just find the magic sequence, then they’ll be that much closer to God.

Blah. If I’m right, and the liberal Christian tradition treats God and religion as more of an aesthetic concern, then they’d surely be better off listening to Bach or taking peyote or staring into the eyes of their beautiful children. There’s just no reason to think that the compiled fragments of the musings of a bunch of Bronze-age shepherds and ancient political expats, inspired though they may appear, are gonna get us any closer to the Divine.

Comment #160: Joe Bleau  on  08/01  at  11:54 AM

Right, Chet, because there are no intellectually dishonest atheists.

Ross, if you don’t want to talk about the validity and rationality of liberal vs. fundamentalist theology, you might want to go on another thread, since that is the topic Amanda raised in her post.  Your dismissive attitude applies just as well to complicated discussions about philosophy.  Yeah, the theology of most religions is intellectually challenging to master.  Boo hoo.

I think I have demonstrated exactly why the liberal approach is better—it is an honest reading of the source text.  If the claim to authority is “I believe this because the text said it” this is crucial.  No one has successfully argued me down on that point, they just point out my belief in God is irrational.  Well, thanks.  That’s helpful.  But it has NOTHING to do with the validity of one approach to a text vs. another.

Steve,

Thanks for the contentless drive-by ad. hom.

Comment #161: Ismone  on  08/01  at  11:55 AM

Joe,

Wow, thanks for your intellectually dishonest and incredibly condescending approach.

This is what I object to.  Without understanding either theology, my beliefs are conflated with the beliefs of people who are very different from mine.  The criticisms that apply to their theology and its simplicity do not apply to theirs.

I am on the defensive because people keep bringing up criticisms that do not apply to my faith, and the majority of Christians, at all.  I am responding to a mischaracterization.  If this were an anthropology thread, well, my that would be fun.  If people stopped telling me I believed stupid thing A, and I tell them, no I don’t, and they tell me, yes, you must, this would be a lot less frustrating (at least for me.)

This conceit as you call it that God is good and just is not something I have brought into the conversation.  I am not evangelizing.  I am explaining that a more nuanced view of the text, which we had before atheists compared our thinking to “shit sandwiches,” with whatever kind of paprika, is more valid. 

Like I said to the others, if you don’t care to have a conversation about the validity of various theologies, this isn’t the convo. for you.

Sorry I don’t provide as little intellectual resistence as some of my peers.  I know if must be frustrating to have an argument with religious people on other than your own, narrow, “but God doesn’t exist!” terms.

Comment #162: Ismone  on  08/01  at  12:04 PM

Sorry I don’t provide as little intellectual resistence as some of my peers.

Your self-flattery merely excites laughter. There’s no intellectual content in your sorry mixture of drivel and doubletalk, let alone “resistance”.

Comment #163: Steve LaBonne  on  08/01  at  12:09 PM

...supply-side economics, philosophy, Star Wars prequels, etc.

LOL!

Comment #164: Dan  on  08/01  at  12:10 PM

Ismone, there is no human behavior that some theist won’t try to characterize as “religious” to justify their own jonesing for a contentless fix.

Steve LaBonne, you nailed it. I will never heal from the damage and stunted growth I endured from trying to contort my brain to wrap itself around theism. Fortunately for my children, they won’t be subjected to it. Critical thinking is enough of a life long challenge without having to overcome crippling magical thinking.

Comment #165: Ken Cope  on  08/01  at  12:33 PM

straight form wiki:

-Christian theology teaches that people are saved by faith in the Christian God (i.e., trust in the empirically unprovable).

-But, if the Christian God’s existence can be proven, either empirically or logically, to that extent faith becomes unnecessary or irrelevant.

-Therefore, if Christian theology is true, no immediate proof of the Christian God’s existence is possible.

Comment #166: Dan  on  08/01  at  12:51 PM

I was catching up on xkcd and thought of this conversation.

Comment #167: D  on  08/01  at  12:58 PM

Ismone,

I’m sorry if you found my post condescending, but I don’t think you read it very carefully, or understood what I was trying to say. Perhaps if you substitute “egg salad” for “turd”, it would make it easier to stomach, but that really doesn’t convey the way that some of us feel about the influence of God and Religion in modern society. I certainly don’t intend to argue with you on that score, in this thread, though. If you were offended, though, I’m sor… no, wait, not really. I’m actually rather sick of the way that nonbelievers are marginalized by the religious in this country, whether they be fundies or the more “liberal” type. If you are of the latter kind, you should expect to see us acting up a bit, if not actually support it.

You don’t seem to realize it, but you did in fact bring “God Exists” and “God is Good” into the conversation. The very fact that you are arguing that your interpretation is a better scriptural interpretation, and not just historical or anthropological or literary interpretation, implies it. Again, a historian or anthropologist has no need whatsoever for biblical apologetics - the Bible unfolds exactly as it should, as a representation of the religious thought and traditions of the folks who were around when it was written. Contradictions, inconsistencies, and flat out horrificness are all to be expected, and it would be miraculous if they weren’t there.

But you seem to be arguing that your scholarship makes your theology better. To me, anyway, that sounds an awful lot like you think that your approach gets you that much closer to God than the silly bumpkin fundies’ attempts - your way is better, more Right, more True, not just as a matter of literature or history, but as a matter of fact as it relates to the Divine. And if you are reading, interpreting, and studying the Bible to get closer to God, then you just can’t walk away from the proposition that God exists and that He is Good. Otherwise, what’s the point?

And claiming that your truths are your own personal truths, your journey is your own, just your beliefs and just your own opinion, and that you aren’t trying to proselytize or convert anyone else; well, this just emphasizes my point that what you really seem to be about is aesthetics, not what I might call Hard Truths or Objective Reality. Well, that’s fine and good - I love that approach, myself, and wish more folks on both sides of the debate would stop fussing over God’s “existence” Whatever makes you happy and doesn’t hurt anyone else it OK with me. I don’t give a fig if someone wants to give their life to Christ, any more than it bothers me to see someone give their life to Phish or Tony Bennett.

But all I was trying to suggest is that your argument about your superior theology isn’t likely to impress those who feel like all theology fails in a profound and important way, any more than I am likely to convince someone that God doesn’t exist if that person really truly doesn’t care that much if God “exists”.

In short - no one really is disputing your contention that, among those that believe that better scripture leads to better theology, your sophisticated and nuanced approach is better than the idiotic fundy literalist approach. We just disagree that better scripture leads to better theology, as long as theology has any connection with the notion of Truth.

Comment #168: Joe Bleau  on  08/01  at  01:09 PM

Sorry, Joe, the word I have been using is textual.  I have used the word “theology” and variations as well, because that is what it is generally called.  Even by atheists.

And I hear what you are saying about the failures of theology/theism.  I’ve said that all along.  My point is, the liberal theology lends itself to outside criticism better than the fundamentalist kind.  And to engage with it, at all, requires critical thought.  It is not all about anti-intellectual repetition of words someone unknown wrote down thousands of years ago. 

If we were talking about anything other than religion, you would probably agree with me that a reading of a text that takes into account history, linguistics, and literary forms instead of merely assuming that the modern translation, and our modern understanding of language.  I do not understand why you are hung up on that concept here.

I do not see how I am marginalizing you.  Please point to where *I* have done that.  I won’t be the fall guy for obnoxious theists, any more than I will make you the fall guy for obnoxious atheists.  Anything I have called you out on has been strictly based on your own words.  I objected to what you wrote not because of what you said about God, or even the fact that I was irrational to believe in God.  It wasn’t what you said, it was how you said it. 

This personal stuff (you put an interesting spin on it, btw, since I have said none of it) is because I am opposed to proselytizing.  I just like talking about ideas.

Steve,

Another ad hom.  Impressive.  Yes, perhaps you have not intellectually recovered, based on what you have posted here.  I am sorry.

Comment #169: Ismone  on  08/01  at  01:28 PM

Ken,

So why am I on the hook for “some theist?”  Are you on the hook for “some atheist” or “some guy named Ken”?

Comment #170: Ismone  on  08/01  at  01:33 PM

I have nothing from which to “recover”. I was never deluded in the first place, even as a child.

Your attempts at condescension are as pitiable as the drivel you post. But do carry on.

Comment #171: Steve LaBonne  on  08/01  at  01:42 PM

If we were talking about anything other than religion, you would probably agree with me that a reading of a text that takes into account history, linguistics, and literary forms instead of merely assuming that the modern translation, and our modern understanding of language.  I do not understand why you are hung up on that concept here.

Tru, Dat. However, we are talking about religion. And that’s the point. It’s about why talking about religion is actually different then talking about other things.

What I was/am trying to get across is that, while most people (atheist and religious alike) approach discussions about religion as if it were a dispute about Objective reality (i.e. whether God “exists”, whether my interpretation is “truer” than yours, etc.) I don’t think that we should approach it that way. We should approach it like we traditionally approach discussions about Egg Salad. I think Egg Salad is better with Hungarian Paprika - you really, really don’t like Egg Salad - you recoil from it, actually -  so my argument isn’t likely to impress. Better to find something else to talk about - like maybe you really should give Egg Salad another try, it’s good for you (and mine is really really yummy)? And why do you keep objecting just ‘cause I get to use the Egg Salad Lovers Only lane during rush hour on the freeway? (note: I’m not claiming that you personally tried to get us to try Egg Salad).

The point is, the basic dispute is not about “reality”, but rather it is a matter of taste. Which is why I don’t like arguments that presume otherwise. However, in my view, any argument that treats the Bible as having any literal spiritual or supernatural significance beyond that of any other insightful or inspiring tome is crossing that line, and moving back into the area of making claims about Truth-with-a-Capital-‘T’. And I really don’t think that fluffing that view up with “well, I believe what I believe, but I’m not certain about it, so I’ll let you believe what you want” really changes that, although it is certainly an admirable position far superior to the alternative.

So, yes, to the extent that talking about religion is just like talking about recipes, or the Iliad, or that the Bible is stipulated to be no more spiritually significant than any other tome, we totally agree. To the extent that it’s not, we really don’t. But that’s OK.

I do not see how I am marginalizing you.  Please point to where *I* have done that.

You haven’t, of course - nor have I insinuated otherwise. However, I’m still not gonna apologize for using imagery that expresses what I intended to express, even though I knew it might offend you personally who did nothing to harm me.

I look at it like this: I happen to be a white male. Now, in America, historically white males as a group have really behaved quite badly with respect to other groups - particularly women and minorities. I, myself, on the other hand, do try very hard not to exhibit such bad behavior.

Nevertheless, I as a white male am not gonna piss and moan when members of said groups, or anyone else, expresses a certain anger, outrage, and impolite level of discourse to me personally when addressing their very real grievances. In fact, I share some of that anger and outrage, as should all decent humans. It is only natural to expect a little vitriol, and frankly (as long as all sides act like grownups) it can be downright beneficial to express what we feel in the manner of how we feel it.

Frankly, I felt OK writing what I wrote because your previous discussion suggested to me that you are an intelligent adult who could handle hearing it and still give the notions expressed therein the semblance of a fair hearing (and, FWIW, I don’t think that I was wrong).

Comment #172: Joe Bleau  on  08/01  at  02:47 PM

Perhaps if you substitute “egg salad” for “turd”, it would make it easier to stomach,

Joe, this is what I’ve been talking about. You made very clear statements and you’re being forced to argue around the margins. It’s easier for some people to engage in a debate over semantics than actually engage the substance.

And Ismone, please re-read - I insulted Christian theology. I wasn’t complaining about how difficult it is. The only thing difficult about the alleged intellectual tradition of Christianity is how one can keep all the contradictions straight and still not reject the thing wholesale. Just like Star Trek.

Comment #173: Ross  on  08/01  at  04:08 PM

Joe,

We’re still not entirely on the same page about discourse, but I see where you’re coming from and thanks for explaining it.

And on the framing of the issue—can theology have value if the existence of god(s)/higher power(s) is not subject to rational analysis—-that is pretty much what our disagreement comes down to.  Even if we were to frame it your way, god does not exist, in order to prove that (at least wrt the god I believe in) you would have to prove that rationality is the only path to truth.  Of any sort.  I cannot prove my god, and you cannot disprove my god.  (And yes, I know putting god outside of rationality may look to you like stacking the deck.  But OTOH, faith wouldn’t have much intrinsic value if it meant “believing what is demonstrably true.”)

So perhaps instead you could talk about the relative dangers of holding beliefs that are non-rational.  But my response to that would be, holding beliefs that are non-rational isn’t a problem if, you recognize they are non-rational, and if you keep them clearly separated from the rational world.  I think that faiths which clearly separate the two are superior. 

So, since we’ve run aground on my framing of the issue, I hope this is more responsive to your frame.

Steve,

Any time you want to join in, and actually make an argument, feel free to do so.  Until then, your snark is meaningless, because you have not taken ANY position at all, let alone one that is more sound than mine or anyone else’s.

Or you can keep being insulting.  But try to be more creative if you do, ‘kay?

Comment #174: Ismone  on  08/01  at  05:28 PM

Ross,

Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. 

All joking aside, I really do not see how the complexities of xtian theology (or any theology, for that matter) are any more off-putting than the complexities of various philosophers or schools of philosophy.  Why does there only have to be one answer, why should theology be a rule book?  I have tremendous, tremendous respect for the plurality of interpretations allowed in Judaism. 

Taken from the quote that Amanda put in her post:

“I simply see no reason why I should trust their interpretation, when the better one is that the Bible is, from Genesis to Revelation, a theological treatise about the nature of God and humanity.”

A treatise—a set of varied views about what it means to be human and what it means to have a god.  (Well, if legal treatises are any example). 

If any of us were to sit down by a river, and do our best to describe that river in prose—we would not reach the same conclusion.  Some of us would be wrong about certain details.  That does not mean the exercise has no value.

It just seems that you want to push me into a corner of pretending that humanity’s inability to perfectly describe anything means that all attempts at description are meaningless, perhaps particularly because you do not believe in what some of us think is being described.

Which gets me back to something Joe wrote:

“The point is, the basic dispute is not about “reality”, but rather it is a matter of taste. Which is why I don’t like arguments that presume otherwise. However, in my view, any argument that treats the Bible as having any literal spiritual or supernatural significance beyond that of any other insightful or inspiring tome is crossing that line, and moving back into the area of making claims about Truth-with-a-Capital-’T’. And I really don’t think that fluffing that view up with “well, I believe what I believe, but I’m not certain about it, so I’ll let you believe what you want” really changes that, although it is certainly an admirable position far superior to the alternative.”

That’s pretty accurate, except it is not a lack of certainty that is holding me back—it is more the recognition that no matter how certain I may be, or how comfortable with my beliefs, according to my own personal set of ethics, that does not put me in a position where I can state my own certainty should be privileged over any of yours.

Couple that with a theological belief that there really isn’t a hell (a little heterodox, but I know several priests who believe the same way), and that your own intrinsic goodness, whether its source is a belief in god or morality or your fellow man, is what determines where you’ll end up sitting in the order of things if my capital-T truth is correct. 

Sorry if I’m getting all new-agey on you, just want to make it quite clear I don’t believe in damning people to hell.  I am sure many of you get that quite a lot.  (The attempted damnings, that is.)

Comment #175: Ismone  on  08/01  at  05:32 PM

Well, maybe I’ll take a different tack this time, to give a sense of where I’m coming from…

Joe Bleau’s Vastly Oversimplified HaHa-Only-Serious Guide to the (Hopeful) Evolution of Western-style Monotheistic Abrahamic Religious Thought

1 (Really, really bad): “I believe that magical leprechauns are responsible for the sunrise. You don’t. I will now kill you”.

2. (Still pretty darn bad, but undeniably less so): “I believe that magical leprechauns are responsible for the sunrise. You don’t. Yet, we live in a “modern”, advanced society that purports to value things like “rights” ‘n crap, so I’m not really supposed to kill you. I guess I’ll settle for mocking you at every turn, making sure that everyone I know is terrified of your immoral and dangerous philosophy, and never missing an opportunity to flaunt my symbolism and power and remind you that you are a detested minority in a foreign land. Oh, and I wouldn’t get my hopes up about holding an elected office anytime soon, either”.

3. (Inarguably better still, but there’s still room for improvement) I believe that magical leprechauns are responsible for the sunrise. You don’t, but I get that I can’t prove my position, nor you yours, and neither can we disprove the other’s. So I guess I’m OK with you and your position. Tell you what, my big group of friends and I will just go right on teaching my kids about the magical leprechauns, you and your kind can teach your kids whatever it is that you believe, and when the subject of sunrises comes up (as it inevitably does), we’ll just kind of roll our eyes, shrug our shoulders, and say “hey, whaddaygonnado?”.

4. (Where I in all sincerity wish we as a species can eventually get to) Hey, I saw the coolest movie last night about leprechauns and sunrises - it really moved me. Let’s say we go grab a beer and talk about it…

See, I guess I want to see people be able to transcend the whole “rational/irrational” debate entirely, and just admit that religious (or any supernatural or metaphysical) discussion almost necessarily turns into something ugly and divisive when it takes place within the confines of the “real world”. It’s not so much about rational vs. irrational, or even useful vs. useless, or any other opposite duality.

Unfortunately, in my view, even entertaining the notion of the Bible as sacred scripture is a huge impediment to where I’d like to see us evolve. There’s just way too much awful stuff in there (yes, even in the New Testament), and treating it or any other screed as sacred only serves to tether people’s supernatural/metaphysical beliefs to the Real World, which is way too barren and craven a vessel for such noble and lofty ideals.

Comment #176: Joe Bleau  on  08/01  at  07:01 PM

Ismone: “So perhaps instead you could talk about the relative dangers of holding beliefs that are non-rational.  But my response to that would be, holding beliefs that are non-rational isn’t a problem if, you recognize they are non-rational, and if you keep them clearly separated from the rational world.”

What do you mean here by keeping the beliefs separate from the rational world? Does that mean not letting them affect your real-world decisions at all, or that they can affect those decisions, but are automatically trumped by any rational or moral concerns? Because if not, the danger still remains, and there is no real basis for telling more conservative religious followers (I don’t just mean fundamentalists, even most liberal churches still perpetrate harmful beliefs) that they are wrong in spreading their beliefs and that you are justified in trying to stop them.

Comment #177: Brandon  on  08/01  at  09:42 PM

“I think I have demonstrated exactly why the liberal approach is better—it is an honest reading of the source text.  If the claim to authority is “I believe this because the text said it” this is crucial.”

Oh, and I just want to add that in the *specific case* of people ascribing authority to a text, a more honest reading is not always better. If the actual source-text was intended to convey beliefs which we now consider to be harmful, isn’t it better if those who ascribe authority to it believe in a faulty interpretation, one that’s not harmful?

Comment #178: Brandon  on  08/01  at  09:55 PM

Any time you want to join in, and actually make an argument, feel free to do so.

No, it’s still your turn. You have yet to produce anything but vapor, so there’s nothing to argue about.

And that IS my position- that your pretended “arguments”  (eg. “But my response to that would be, holding beliefs that are non-rational isn’t a problem if, you recognize they are non-rational, and if you keep them clearly separated from the rational world.” which is an English sentence only in the same sense as “colorless green ideas sleep furiously” is an English sentence) are meaningless agglomerations of words, and your muzzy “beliefs” are fatuous and devoid of any ascertainable content. I neither expect you to like being confronted with those facts, nor do I care. The emperor didn’t enjoy having his nudity pointed out, either.

Comment #179: Steve LaBonne  on  08/01  at  10:48 PM

P.S. I attended a UU church for some years- one that historically had a strong Humanist foundation, which it progressively betrayed and shoved into the background in favor of sillier and sillier woo until I couldn’t stand it any more. So I have had considerable exposure to liberal theological “thought”. The average Sunday sermon of the typical fundamentalist minister is a model of clarity and logic by comparison to that kind of doubletalk-laden mush.

Comment #180: Steve LaBonne  on  08/01  at  11:11 PM
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