http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_apartheid

israel’s not basically a western democracy.

So how on earth do vigilante religious groups think they have a right to persecute women?

For some reason that has little to do with Zionism, ultra-Orthodox Jews get a lot of free passes in Israel (ultra-Orthodox Jews were, and some still are, anti-Zionist). For example, they can get exemptions from mandatory military service (service that often protects ultra-orthodox settlers). But judging by articles like this, the majority of secular Israelis are losing patience with their whinging and false sense of entitlement. So taking a firm stand against Taliban-style behaviour is a positive sign.

This “modesty squad” business is also a useful reminder that the Judaism is in no way exempt from the fantasism and extremism that creeps in whenever one places a supernatural entity or its self-appointed representatives above one’s fellow man.

This reminds of something I read about a large conference that brought fundamentalist xtians, orthodox jews and conservative muslims together to discuss their differences. They came away from the meeting visibly bothered by the fact they had much more in common they wanted to believe.

Unfortunately, by the nature of its charter, Israel tends to concentrate the “crazy” in Judaism.  As someone who grew up a Conservative Jew in the U.S., it distresses me that some in that faith still want to live in the Dark Ages.  But when you have that high a concentration of religious extremists - Haredi make up 8% of the population in Israel - you’re likely to get this kind of stupidity.

And of course, it reflects badly on the rest of the country and on Jews as a people.  It makes it harder to point to Israel and say, “but for the issue of Palestine, this would be the democratic example in the Middle East”, rather than “this is just another intolerant, dogmatic country in a region filled with intolerant, dogmatic countries”.  And my sincere hope is that Palestine can be resolved, and Israel can go on to be that shining example of multicultural, modern democracy in the Middle East that we want it to be.

Just like my sincere hope is that America can turn its back on policies driven at least in part by religious extremists and regain its own standing in the world.  But, I digress…

israel’s not basically a western democracy.

While that statement is simplistic, the Wikipedia link is very useful. Our user Athiest was looking for some hard data on how Arabs who are Israeli citizens are discriminated against de jure, and this provides some good examples.

But when you have that high a concentration of religious extremists - Haredi make up 8% of the population in Israel - you’re likely to get this kind of stupidity.

An excellent point—that kind of concentration of religious fantasists in a multi-party parliamentary system guarantees that they’re going to wield outsized influence. If the ultra-orthodox Jews had stuck with their original superstitious opposition to Zionism, Likud would have had a harder time pushing forward its expansionist and jingoistic policies.

As we’ve seen here in the US over the past 25 years, when Know-Nothing religious fantasists make common cause with neoCons, it can result in major damage even to the core Enlightenment ideals underlying most Western democracies.

Israel is basically a Western nation, a liberal democracy like ours or one in Western Europe. 

When it drops cluster bombs on its neighbors, or bombs orphanages, it prefers to be held to a lower standard, the “Middle East country filled with crazy religious fanatics” one.

If the ultra-orthodox Jews had stuck with their original superstitious opposition to Zionism

I don’t know the history here very well, and I’d be curious to hear more.

Acidic Jews are responsible for the economic meltdown and they eat Christian babies, according to the Proctocols of the Elderly Scions.  However, I do approve of vigilante squads harassing ladies for looking good (as it puts too much pressure on us fellers).

When it drops cluster bombs on its neighbors, or bombs orphanages, it prefers to be held to a lower standard, the “Middle East country filled with crazy religious fanatics” one.

Amanda’s talking about core values, not practises. When religious or racial fantasists hold a significant power bloc, even Western liberal democracies can go nuts. The Establishment Clause in the U.S. prevents Xtian fantasists from doing the kind of damage that Jewish fantasists have helped wreak in Israel, but they’ve managed to contribute to the U.S. dropping more than a few cluster bombs on civilians without just cause.

Unfortunately, by the nature of its charter, Israel tends to concentrate the “crazy” in Judaism.

It’s not just Judaism—about 50 travelers to Israel per year develop Jerusalem Syndrome, where they become convinced they’re a Bible character, whether it’s the next Messiah, John the Baptist or the Virgin Mary.

I don’t know the history here very well, and I’d be curious to hear more.

The short version goes something like this:

Apparently, ultra-Orthodox Jewish doctrine held that the state of Israel (a homeland to which the Jews return) should only come about when the messiah returns (why? because the magic book says so!). So in 1948 they were as a rule in opposition to the Zionism (which was in large part a creation of secular and socialist Jews). The novel The Chosen discusses this in some detail. Even today, there’s still a sect of them (I forget the name) in the U.S. that are vocally anti-Zionist.

At some point in the ‘70s or ‘80s, many American ultra-Orthodox Jews decided that, hey, the magic book does allow a state of Israel now, and we should go settle there to bring the messiah back sooner. Yes, I know, such a turnabout makes absolutely no sense, but these are religious fantasists we’re talking about: adjusting “deeply held beliefs” when it becomes politically expedient and outright hypocrisy come with the territory.

Since the secular Zionists couldn’t by definition keep them out, and since Israel doesn’t have an Establishment Clause, you now see them trying to twist Zionism into some kind of theocratic doctrine—similar tobut far more corrosive than the “America is a Christian nation” we see in the US.

ultra-Orthodox Jews get a lot of free passes in Israel

A big part of the problem is that Israel is a parliamentary democracy usually governed by a coalition rather a single majority party.  Support of small parties centered around ultra-religous groups becomes essential to form a government. The government therefore usually can’t afford to offend the ultras.

http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/definingdemdown.html

And remember that some “state” functions in Israel are actually executed by religious organizations, so it’s probably not quite correct to think that Israel isn’t a theocracy.  One issues that’s having rather wider ripples in particular is that marriage is a religious function in Israel, and converts who are found not to be sufficiently observant, or converts whose conversions were performed by rabbis who are sufficiently orthodox, are considered not-Jews and therefore their Israeli marriages are considered invalid and annulled.  There’s been something of a backlash against this since a rabbinical court found that of hundreds of conversions performed by one rabbi, one convert was not shomer shabbat and so they invalidated *all* of this guy’s conversions, which also terminated their marriages.

Here’s a general background on the situation.

Anyway, Israel?  Not so secular.

There’s been something of a backlash against this since a rabbinical court found that of hundreds of conversions performed by one rabbi, one convert was not shomer shabbat and so they invalidated *all* of this guy’s conversions, which also terminated their marriages.

Fantastic! Might give the Xtian fantasists here who think the only “real” marriages are those performed by clergy. Cock-ups like this seem to be the only way governments learn to separate out the concept of religious marriage from the concept of what should be called civil unions.

According to the Wikipedia link provided by hmmmm, the issue of marriage in particular seems to hold a lot of anti-democratic pitfalls in Israel. No wonder it’s a favourite hobbyhorse issue of religious fantasists everywhere.

Amanda, there was a time when the US did not excuse its violations of international law by asking to be held only to the standards expected of terrorists. So I guess I am living in the past.

Mnemosyne, thanks for the link on Jerusalem syndrome. Fascinating stuff.

Israel proper is a liberal western democracy.

The Palestinian territories aren’t run like one, but then again, they’re basically a war zone and not part of Israel unless you’re a fanatical Likudnik and/or looking to score cheap points against Israel.

So how on earth do vigilante religious groups think they have a right to persecute women?

Is it really surprising that fervently religous people are basically sexually neurotic, obssessive perverts who reject notions of equality?

Also does anyone else find it ironic how much the ultra-Orthodox rabbis have in common with Hamas? They have “modesty squads”, too. I wonder if they even notice how similar they are to eachother in outlook sometimes.

As others have observed, Israel isn’t basically a Western democratic type place.  Its a proto-theocracy and the crazy religionists there are working tirelessly to push Israel into full theocratic status.

I hope they fail but I’m not hopeful.  Israel is explicitly founded as a religion based state, freedom of religion is done more as a kind pat on the head to the poor heathens a privilege not a right, and the state is explicitly formulated to favor one religion over the others.  Even many secular Jews outside Israel see it as a Good Thing for there to be an explicitly Jewish State, which I think is sufficient evidence that Israel won’t be embracing secularism anytime soon.

And where secularism is not mandated by law, held up by Constitution-equivalent force and tradition, theocrats blossom and slowly erode the very concept of freedom of religion.

What’s really unfortunate is that due to the ugly history of Antisemitism in the USA, many people are unwilling, or possibly actually unable, to realize that the fundamentalist Jews are just as bad as fundamentalist Muslims or Christians.  The Taliban and the Haredi are identical in their desire to harm people (especially women), and try to drag their nations back to the stone age, they differ only in the words of their prayers, their methods and objectives are identical.

As others here have observed, the fact is that you can’t form a coalition government in Israel without the support of the crazy religious parties, and that means real reform will never happen.  We will see, *at*best*, and unending stream of efforts to reign in the worst excesses of the Haredi, and the number of victims of their religion fueled evil will grow, and grow.

You can’t have a partially theocratic state, it just plain doesn’t work.  Israel must either abandon the dream of a Jewish State and become a secular state with a majority Jewish population, or it will eventually become yet another theocratic hellhole.

Shorter ultra-orthodox jewish men to all other jewish men:
We won’t fight to protect ourselves, we won’t fight to protect our families, and we refuse to serve.  But what we will do is hire thugs to beat up your uppity bitches whilst you protect us and our families.  Occasionally we might do the beating ourselves if the bitch is helpless enough and outnumbered.  We speak for god.

Israel is mostly secular. Yes, there are religious nuts. But there are in the USA, too.

Zionism started as a purely secular (and viewed as a left wing) movement until after 1967, when sadly religious fanatics latched onto it for their own purposes and are doing their best to ruin it, whether its the atrocities in the West Bank done by the fanatical settlers, or refusing to consider civil marriage, or the “modesty” police.

Israel must either abandon the dream of a Jewish State and become a secular state with a majority Jewish population,

The latter is what the original intent of Zionism was. The establishment of a majority (NOT exclusively) Jewish/Hebrew secular, democratic state.

At some point in the ‘70s or ‘80s, many American ultra-Orthodox Jews decided that, hey, the magic book does allow a state of Israel now, and we should go settle there to bring the messiah back sooner. Yes, I know, such a turnabout makes absolutely no sense . . . (Gracchus)

Yet another revelation brought on by a religion’s realization that it could cut a better deal for itself with a slight shift in dogma.

Gracchus—

Also, the newer Jewish immigrants to Israel from the old Eastern Bloc countries after 1989 tend to be way more fanatical than the older stock from Western Europe and North America. That’s changed politics there a lot, too.

All these conservative god people have trying to run other people’s lives in common.  They are so certain that their religious views are correct that they see no problem with the idea of imposing their beliefs on everybody else.  We can probably look forward to modesty squads in this country before much longer.  I’m sure the Baptists are up for it.

Ethical Werewolf -
The Jews who are called “heredi” in Israel are what in the US are called Hasidim.  “Hasidim” means “the pious ones” - “Haredi” means “the fearful ones,” as in “those who fear God.”  You have certainly seen pictures of them:  beards and sidecurls, black suits and large hats for the men, long skirts and long sleeved blouses and either wigs or headscarves for the women.  These are members of a number of different sects, tracing their origins to communities in Eastern Europe, where a movement of pietitistic and mystical belief swept through the region in opposition to rationalist Judaism whose highest traditional practices involve analytic disputation of talmudic law (think of evangelicals versus Jesuits and you’ll get the idea).  Most Haredi Jews follow the “rebbe” (rabbi) of their particular group, which is a hereditary position.

Haredi Judaism was histoircally an otherworldly, spiritual belief system in which human beings have little control over their fate in this life other than in reliance on God and via prayer.  The Haredi are often called “ultra-Orthodox” although they’re not really “ultra” - they came into existence in opposition to traditional Orthodoxy and they are opposed to it even today.

Haredi Jews opposed the foundation of the State of Israel and have traditionally not recognized the legitimacy of the Israeli government because, they believe, God does not want Jews to become a self-governing nation until He is ready to send the Messiah to re-establish the Temple in Jerusalem and establish His kingdom on earth.  They view the existence of a Jewish state without a Temple as blasphemous.  They consider the secular Jews who serve the State in the government and other institutions (eg the Army) to be heretics.  They believe that God allows the state of Israel to exist because it contains Jews like themselves who demonstrate their fear of God in prayer, dress and action.  (See by analogy what God said to Abraham about destroying Sodom and Gomorrah:  that He would refrain from destoying them if ten righteous men could be found there).

For a long time, Haredi Jews in Israel were not much more than a curiosity and an annoyance. However, in recent years many of the sects have reached a compromise with the State that is a real danger to its continued existence - they have decided that God does want the Jews to govern the Holy Land, and therefore they vote (as directed by their rebbe), they accept funding (for their religious schools and other institutions) and they participate in public life, all without serving in the army and without accepting the legitimacy of the government.  They are the hardest of the hard right - being theocrats, they have contempt for democracy;  they do not have the slightest regard for the rights of secular Jews and non-Jews, including Arabs; and they do not accept the need for realist compromise with the Palestinians.  To the contrary, they believe that allowing any of the West Bank to fall under Palestinian control would be a sin that would anger God to the point that he might punish Israel by destroying it.  Therefore, they believe, the settler movement is essential to the survival of Israel.

And because they are politically important to the non-Haredi right, they have been allowed to intrude into the public sphere within Israel proper in a way that was unheard of a decade ago - in terms of demanding control over the streets, buses and shops in their neighborhoods and at holy sites, enforcing discriminatory codes of behavior (“modesty”), Sabbath closing rules, and the like.

I think it is weird how woman hating can be a common theme amoung religious fanatics. I have been guilty of judging all xtians by the behavior of abortion clinic bombers and for that I’m sorry, there are a lot of nice xtians out there who don’t hate women and/or homosexuals. Same with muslims, same with Jews.
Jews didn’t suddenly decide in the 70’s and 80’s that the “magic book” allows for a state of Israel that’s just Jew hating tripe.

Bloix—

Like I said, it’s amazing how much they share in common with their arch-enemy Hamas. Like Nazis and Communists, they hate eachother but are actually quite similar. They even both grow long beards.

And as you pointed out nicely, they’re probably about equal size in their threat to the existence of an Israeli state.

Also, the newer Jewish immigrants to Israel from the old Eastern Bloc countries after 1989 tend to be way more fanatical than the older stock from Western Europe and North America. That’s changed politics there a lot, too.

It gets even weirder. I recently read a news story about the Israelis arresting some actual neo-Nazis who, despite qualifying as citizens because they were Jews, were from Russia (IIRC) and had picked up some of the nasty right-wing politics circulating there. This is what happens when a country focuses its immigration policy on “nation” instead of “state.”

An Israeli Neo-Nazi? My God, that’s like a Jewish real life version of Dave Chapelle’s blind black Klansman!

Jews didn’t suddenly decide in the 70’s and 80’s that the “magic book” allows for a state of Israel that’s just Jew hating tripe.

No-one’s talking about Jews in general—that would be anti-semitic. However, American Orthodox Jews in particular did precisely that, per Bloix’s excellent answer. The ones who decided it was politically or personally expedient to move to Israel simply adjusted their interpretation of the magic book. Wave the want and they now…

believe that God allows the state of Israel to exist because it contains Jews like themselves who demonstrate their fear of God in prayer, dress and action.  (See by analogy what God said to Abraham about destroying Sodom and Gomorrah:  that He would refrain from destoying them if ten righteous men could be found there).

One of the properties of the magic book is that, if you change your mind on even a central issue, you can always find a passage to support it and keep in the good graces of the Invisible Bearded Sky Man™

And yes, there are plenty of devout people of all religions who aren’t misogynists and homophobes. The ones we’re talking about here are the type of bigoted fantasists who start “modesty squads.”

An Israeli Neo-Nazi? My God, that’s like a Jewish real life version of Dave Chapelle’s blind black Klansman!

Here’s an article. They were moron teenagers, but it’s still bizarre.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1861641,00.html

Mnemosyne, thanks for the link on Jerusalem syndrome. Fascinating stuff.

As with all good things, I first read about it on Fred Clark’s Slacktivist.

It does make you wonder if there’s something about the area (the water?  the dust?  the angle of the sun?) that makes people more prone to religious frenzy.  Three of the world’s biggest religions all originated there, after all.

It sometimes seems like the West Bank is occupying Israel rather than Israel occupying the West Bank, if y’all know what I mean.

It does make you wonder if there’s something about the area (the water?  the dust?  the angle of the sun?) that makes people more prone to religious frenzy.  Three of the world’s biggest religions all originated there, after all.

Or in general the people who make pilgrimages there tend to be somewhat prone to delusion.

“despite qualifying as citizens because they were Jews”

The thing is, they’re not Jews.  Theyre Russians, with maybe one Jewish grandparent, and Jews in Israel don’t acccept them as Jews.  Their parents came to Israel as economic migrants (it was easy to go to Israel, much harder to get into the US) and they find it very hard to be Israelis without being Jewish.  So, being teenagers, they do what teenagers do when they are alienated and fearful.

It does make you wonder if there’s something about the area (the water?  the dust?  the angle of the sun?) that makes people more prone to religious frenzy.  Three of the world’s biggest religions all originated there, after all.

That’s really not that all impressive when two of the three religions were subsequently developed later and based intentionally on the preceding first religion. And when two of those three religions spread themselves rather forcibly and stamped out the competition, it’s not a huge surprise that they ended up as “major” religions.

As for the Jerusalem Syndrome, I think it’s far more likely that people who are prone to Christian / Jewish / Muslim religious delusions are simply more likely to visit Jerusalem than, say, you or I. The “something in the water” theory would only make sense if people experiencing Jersusalem Syndrone ALSO regularly claimed to be the Dalai Lama, the reincarnation of Gardner, and/or American Indian tribal gods in the flesh. It is highly unlikely that there would be a specific “something” (The Jesus Mineral?) in the area that would trigger religious delusions AND have them limited to the Christian / Jewish / Muslim religion for which the area is so famous.

The thing is, they’re not Jews.  Theyre Russians, with maybe one Jewish grandparent, and Jews in Israel don’t acccept them as Jews.  Their parents came to Israel as economic migrants (it was easy to go to Israel, much harder to get into the US) and they find it very hard to be Israelis without being Jewish.  So, being teenagers, they do what teenagers do when they are alienated and fearful.

I was speaking in terms of the immigration policy that allowed their parents easier entry into Israel than the U.S. The state of Israel apparently considered their parents “Jewish enough” via the mechanism of a very low genetic bar (one Jewish grandparent). That’s what I mean when I talk about “nation” (e.g. ethnicity) being more important than “state” (i.e. the secular ideals of Zionism) when it comes to whom they allow in. What happens after they’re citizens ... well, situations like the one you describe.

That’s one thing modern U.S. immigration policy gets right: it doesn’t matter who your grandparents were (your “nationality”), as long as you genuinely buy into the Constitution (the underpinnings of the state).

I was invited to an Israeli group’s camp for dinner - I’m terribly bad with names - and the subject came up.  How do they stand it?

The answer was quite simple:  It’s not as it’s advertised to be.  Non-jews have trouble (or aren’t allowed) to own property, have jobs, vote, etc.  The regular people learn to ignore the news because it has so much terrible stuff on it, and just focus what’s on in their town or village, and enjoy life there.

Which is reasonable, but it goes to show that the apologists over here only make things worse, by making us think their country operates like ours.  When in fact, it does not.

Very sad.  But his food was really good.  I think I could make a case for his cooking to be very popular out here with the muslim and hindu vegetarians… Hee ^-^

Judging by the endless religious insanities regarding warfare, territorial demands, oppression, fundamentalism, brutality and murder that the area produces methinks that they have a lot of nerve locking up somebody who thinks he’s John the Baptist as if he were the crazy one.

It is highly unlikely that there would be a specific “something” (The Jesus Mineral?) in the area that would trigger religious delusions AND have them limited to the Christian / Jewish / Muslim religion for which the area is so famous.

Oh, probably.  But it’s still a fun speculation.

sotonohito on 12/04 at 03:28 PM wrote:

And where secularism is not mandated by law, held up by Constitution-equivalent force and tradition, theocrats blossom and slowly erode the very concept of freedom of religion.

How then do you account for the fact that most European democracies have state religions and yet at the same time are far more secular than the U.S.? I don’t think it’s quite as simple as you make out. In fact I have seen it argued that the inability of the U.S. to have a state religion is what has encouraged the growth of religion in your country (they are in competition with each other and therefore strive to get more and more adherents). Apparently Iran has the lowest mosque attendance in the whole middle east, despite the fact that Islam is the state religion.

It is highly unlikely that there would be a specific “something” (The Jesus Mineral?) in the area that would trigger religious delusions AND have them limited to the Christian / Jewish / Muslim religion for which the area is so famous.

Well, sure, it’s hard to come up with a *natural* explanation for that phenomenon.  But a Great Old One buried under Jerusalem fits pretty well.  (So *that*‘s why that set of religions regards pentagrams as evil: they look just like Elder Signs!)  Abdul Alhazred was from that same area, too…

That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.

Three days *is* a pretty strange aeon, but maybe it’s one of those nonlinear time things.

Some prophecies even claim that the god will return and bring destruction.  Ia!  Ia!  IHVH!!

,blockquote>A religion-hating Israeli friend of mine was telling me that a number of people in the ultra-right settler movement are American Jews who’ve embraced the theocratic version of Zionism and elected to move to Israel to become illegal settlers. </blockquote>

A friend of mine(fluent in arabic)taught english in the west bank between the intifadas. She told me that every asshole settler she encountered was from Brooklyn or Queens.

And where secularism is not mandated by law, held up by Constitution-equivalent force and tradition, theocrats blossom and slowly erode the very concept of freedom of religion.

Well, it could potential help if Israel HAD a constitution…perhaps someday they’ll get around to writing it…

David Ben-Gurion made a deal with the religioso dudes circa 1948 that haunts Israel still.  They agreed to get off his back on the things that interested him (military operations, land acquisition and surrender, international relations) and he would give them control over what he didn’t care about: “law of the family.”  So whenever Ariel Sharon wanted to stuff his face with state-funded pork and oysters, no rabbi dared to mess with him. 

Guess which gender drew the sucky end of the straw.  To this day, if you are a Jewish woman seeking to marry in Israel (like state and federal governments in the US, the state extends privileges to married people), you have to submit to a godbag rite, including being dunked in a communal bath to clean away your ritual filth of menstruation.  No secular marriage.  I think that’s a huge difference between Israel and the European countries with state churches.

As somebody living in Israel (even though I am not a specialist):
Instead the Israeli divorcee who left the Orthodox fold some three years
May be “Vigilante religious groups think they have a right to persecute women” from their own groups. Very religious people are quite closed community. For example, I read a newspaper article about the difficulty to investigate suicides among them since it’s considered a horrible thing and would hurt living family a lot too. So relatives try to hide it. In the similar way some people probably can do many things without police knowing, as long as it stays in the community. Pay attention that this woman who complained has already left the Orthodox fold, but was still considered one by those men.
has told her that if she continued to live there, she would be killed
Jerusalem has been turning more and more religious with years. I even watched on TV some time ago a woman talking how it wasn’t always so (at least, not this much), but in the last years young not-religious people leave the city and it turns more and more religious. My mother visited it and said she saw only religious people.
In that woman’s place I would leave the city quickly. If she has really decided to leave the fold, why live among them?

Well, it could potential help if Israel HAD a constitution…perhaps someday they’ll get around to writing it…

Charles, have you been living in the US for the last 8 years?

I used to think the US was superior to the UK for just this reason, now…not so much.

Words aren’t completely impotent, but without people to enact them, they don’t mean dick.

Related to this post:  I saw a short film called Sabbath, about an Orthodox girl that shirks the Sabbath to go out with her friends.  Uglier than a 50s cautionary film, without any redeeming unintentional irony.  I knew in some vague way that people looked at life this way, but it was still shocking to see.

Israel, as other commenters have said, is not PRECISELY a liberal democracy.  It is an ethnocracy in which Jews have superior rights to other ethnic minorities.  Israel is a country that would like to be known as a liberal democracy.  And it does have many such trappings like elections, etc.  But elections are not all that comprise democracy.

And returing to yr pt. about oppression of women, Israel is a quasi theocracy.  ITs founding fathers decided to allow Orthodox Jews to have veto power over any national matter that involved religion.  That’s why women can be oppressed on public transportation in Orthodox neighborhoods.

And don’t walk in Mea Shearim in short sleeves if you’re a woman unless you want to be stoned or propositioned (not much diff. as far as the Orthodox are concerned).

Hector, we bomb orphanages and the like, too, but we’re still a Western liberal democracy that wouldn’t tolerate this shit within our borders.  I fail to see what you are earning yourself by making the issue seem less complex than it is.

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.  (Sorry for the platitude, but it’s apt.)  I don’t think we should feel so superior in Israel in this respect, with our own religious crazies becoming more and more aggressive in politics.  The power that fundamentalists wield in Israel shouldn’t be marveled at as an aberration among liberal societies, but taken as a warning of what happens when religious zealots get a foothold in the government.

israeli:

May be “Vigilante religious groups think they have a right to persecute women” from their own groups. Very religious people are quite closed community. For example, I read a newspaper article about the difficulty to investigate suicides among them since it’s considered a horrible thing and would hurt living family a lot too. So relatives try to hide it. In the similar way some people probably can do many things without police knowing, as long as it stays in the community. Pay attention that this woman who complained has already left the Orthodox fold, but was still considered one by those men.

I don’t have news stories on me at th emoment, but I’m sure you could find many that disprove this. Women have been attacked on buses for not sitting at the back - the attackers had no way of knowing if they were Orthodox or not.