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Grand Unified Theory of 80s Nostalgia (Plus Prom Shilling)

Music

This post is part of a month-long Friday series promoting the Radical 80s Prom on 12/3.  If you’re in New York on December 3rd, please come by the Bowery Poetry Club from 10PM-2AM and dance to some great 80s tunes, for a good cause.  If you are coming, I’d love to get an RSVP from you on Facebook.

When people think of the culture wars, they think of abortion, gay rights, guns, or Sarah Palin shoving cookies on innocent children. But they don’t often think of what I think of as one of the most interesting cultural happenings in the past 40 years, the disco riot of 1979, which was a culmination of the baffling Disco Sucks movement of the late 70s.  Not baffling in the sense that people were tired of disco, which dominated the airwaves, but baffling in how angry it was, how semi-organized.  Enough, apparently, to kick off a riot.  Cultural critics with more heft that I have analyzed the entire thing, looking over the way that Disco Sucks movement channeled of lot of straight white male resentment at women, people of color, and GLBT people—-groups that culturally dominated and defined disco, especially in its early days.  Disco Sucks was supposed to be straight white men reclaiming the radio dial that was rightfully theirs. 

If you think this reading is overwrought, I refer you to Roy Edroso, who discovered that culture warriors are still angry about disco flooding the airwaves with singing divas carefully elevated by gay DJs. In a rant that also implied that Roots is a horrible stain (presumably for overruling decades of post-Confederate propaganda suggesting slavery wasn’t so bad), Ed Driscoll flipped out on, of all things, Saturday Night Fever

A minor example, also from the mid-1970s, was Travolta’s Saturday Night Fever. It was sold to the public as being an adaptation of a magazine article on the real-life exploits of disaffected Brooklyn youth, when it reality, it was basically Quadrophenia with better dance moves, updated clothes, and cockney accents replaced with Brooklynese:

His larger point seemed to be that the cultural touchstones of liberalism from the 70s were all lies—-lies I tell you!—-leading people down the wrong path towards thinking badly of Watergate and slavery, and thinking that even straight white dudes from Brooklyn could enjoy disco. 

If that doesn’t convince you, think about this: how many of the anti-disco rioters grew older and crabbier, moved to the suburbs, and now consider themselves members or fans of the Tea Party?  See what I mean?


What does this have to do with the 80s?  Well, on the Facebook page for our Radical 80s Prom, we got into a small query of why nostalgia for the 80s began immediately and never died.  It’s a particularly interesting question, because the 80s were sort of a shit decade in many ways.  The 80s are assumed to be an era of triumph for culture warriors.  Disco was dead. Reagan was President. The anti-feminist backlash was effective, killing the ERA and getting Newsweek to threaten women that they’d never get married if they didn’t give up on their careers and their standards.  All of this is true.

But I put to you this argument: we cling to certain artifacts of the 80s because they reminded us that these horrors were simply setbacks, and that progress was marching on and would not be stopped.  Yes, disco died.  And then it came back with a vengeance.  All the things that were hated about disco were immediately and dramatically reborn into other genres that spun off from it.  The synthesized nature of it that was derided came back triple time in New Wave and started to dominate rock and roll.  The beats and the licks and especially the culture of DJing laid the groundwork for hip hop, a genre that still sends culture warriors spinning off to Angry Town.  Gender-bending became even more mainstream, with men in make-up playing keyboards broadcast on MTV in the middle of the day for all to see.  The biggest stars of the era—-Prince, Madonna, Michael Jackson—-all flouted the strict masculinity norms insisted on by the disco rioters.  Unsurprisingly, this was also the era that country music went big time and became the official music of culture warriors everywhere, much to the chagrin of those who see more possibilities than that in country western. 

I think that’s why we love the 80s, on top of the childhood and adolescent nostalgia of the Gen X-ers.  The music we cling to from that era was about perseverance and eventual triumph, even when the lyrics themselves were pablum. 

With that in mind, I thought I’d play some disco triumphant music.

 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:00 AM • (122) Comments

As a child of the 80’s whose parents had the tape soundtrack to SNF, I loved disco and was totally baffled at how ‘disco sucks’ was such an accepted truth in the music world. Possibly my favourite records of my parents was a disco version of Evita from (I think) an LA production in the 70’s, and I still think it’s the best version I’ve ever heard. I thought Evita *was* disco until the movie with Madonna came out.

Comment #1: lijakaca  on  11/12  at  12:05 PM

And ultimately - remarkably - disco won.  Besides its influence in contemporary popular music, there’s the fact that disco hits are played at pretty much every wedding out there, including the “YMCA,” with both obviously gay performers and obviously gay subject matter.

Comment #2: Loch Ness Monster  on  11/12  at  12:10 PM

It’s something that should give us all hope.  As powerful as culture warriors are, and despite how much damage they do, the long view isn’t good for them.  And they know it, which is why they act like they’re losing even when they’re winning.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  12:17 PM

I was really young then, but I do remember having my feet in both disco and “disco sucks” worlds.  My parents had the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack on LP, and we listened to it a lot.  At our house, we’d have on the r&b;/soul stations that played a lot of disco, but also the hard rock “disco sucks” station.  The latter had a promotion in which you got a gold card that was good for discounts at various local businesses, and on the card were various rules about what not to do if you didn’t want to “look disco”.  I had one of those cards, but didn’t get into the backlash, which I didn’t fully understand at the time anyway.

Comment #4: Linnaeus  on  11/12  at  12:21 PM

FSM bless the 80s. they gave us both of these, and it was good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsvfofcIE1Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-O5IHVhWj0

Comment #5: chibi  on  11/12  at  12:22 PM

Erasure was the opening act at the very first concert I ever went to, Duran/Duran. Parents were all told that it was just fine for us to go to this concert, not knowing that eleven year old girls were going to see men in lingerie and fishnet stockings totally rocking it out. It did make the papers the next day but by then it was too late.

And so much country western music has sucked since the 80’s. It’s really sad because it used to be good, funny and involved some incredibly talented people.

Comment #6: serious bette  on  11/12  at  12:24 PM

My older brother was somewhat anomalous among his peers for an Asian-American, Boise Idaho ‘70’s teen—he listened almost exclusively to Michael Jackson, Earth Wind & Fire, Chic, the Commodores, the George Clinton bands, and he also brought home a Curtis Blow tape that I wore out pretty quickly (the records I used to tape on a boombox positioned just in front of the stereo speakers). As a result my picture of the ‘70’s was very distorted; I thought that’s what everyone listened to, even though his friends would mock him mercilessly for listening to “disco.” So I was completely surprised and weirded out by the Disco Demolition Night.

I don’t think I even heard Led Zeppelin until I reached high school, though strangely enough my very first record was Heart’s “Little Queen.”

Comment #7: Dr. Locrian  on  11/12  at  12:26 PM

I’m not really a student of music, but this made me realize how much of what I’m really enjoying right now is traceable back to disco.  So many things are connected in ways that aren’t really obvious.  And that, right there, might be one of the huge differences between the left and the right.  We know that there are interconnections everywhere, and we look for them and try to understand them.  They insist that they are islands - free from influence from outside, unconnected to the rest of the world, except when it tries to take their stuff.  And then they try to make the world conform to that view, by building gated suburbs, driving around in pseudo-military Hummer H2s, shouting down (or stomping on) dissenting voices, rewriting history textbooks, abrogating international treaties, and disdaining cooperation - demanding capitulation as the only acceptable form of ‘compromise’.

Comment #8: libdevil  on  11/12  at  12:28 PM

@Comment #8: libdevil on 11/12 at 10:28 AM

So many things are connected in ways that aren’t really obvious.  And that, right there, might be one of the huge differences between the left and the right.  We know that there are interconnections everywhere, and we look for them and try to understand them.  They insist that they are islands - free from influence from outside, unconnected to the rest of the world

Very true. It would be interesting to see the effect that making their connections to others very plain would have on their psyches. Would it tend to knock them back/neutralize them? Or would they simply ignore it/refuse to beleive it?

Comment #9: atheist  on  11/12  at  12:38 PM

Right on about disco, and its reception by conservative white male America.  For not only was disco a music dominated by women, gays and people of color, it was also in a music of liberation, and worse, of liberation by ecstatic, communal release. 

It’s easy to forget this because of the associations with Studio 54 and such, but the great theme of disco was escaping and defeating the hassles of non-wealthy life by going out on the dance floor with other like-minded people.  “Good times”, “Lost in music”, “There but for the grace of God go I”, “Last night the DJ save my life”, etc.  Here were all these underprivileged folks finding a way to make their lives fun, doing it together, talking about it, and winning over mass culture with their vision!  Must have been a nightmare.

And as you say, Amanda, no matter how many disco records they blew up at Comiskey, there was no going back.

Comment #10: JasonB  on  11/12  at  01:17 PM

Thank you for posting these videos, Amanda. My day was sucking, and they made it a little better. If I can go to the Radical 80s Prom I will! I have a floofy skirt and fishnets!

I miss Human League.

Comment #11: Bethynyc  on  11/12  at  01:22 PM

@9 - Outright rejection.  They reject evolution because they refuse to believe they’re connected to other living things.  They reject pretty much all environmental preservation because they refuse to believe they’re even connected to the air they breathe and the water they drink.  Same way the reject all social welfare programs except the ones that they need - because they are deserving and really need the help.  And their abortions are necessary.  They reject any challenge to the worldview that puts them on top.

Comment #12: libdevil  on  11/12  at  01:31 PM

No doubt racism played a notorious part, but I think the sheer saturation of disco into every freakin aspect of popular culture was what produced most of the backlash.  Not to mention the growing popularity of hard rock music in the main.  Hard to believe it now but hard rock, southern/redneck rock, and acid rock/metal were once part of the suburban subculture, and that’s where the bulk of the backlash was born.  Rock fans were the distinct musical minority, the outcasts, the freaks - one big reason why so many of them eventually gravitated to punk rock.  Disco fans were the finely-coiffed coke-sniffing snobs who wouldn’t let you into their clubs coz you didn’t wear the right outfit or cut your hair.  The music wasn’t all bad, just incessantly re-copied to nth degree by greedy producers trying to cash in on the latest wave.  Chic, Parlaiment, Giorgio Moroder - they were actually breaking new ground, but most acts were just phoning it in.  A whole bunch of non-musicians producing music didn’t help.

Comment #13: elpathos  on  11/12  at  01:34 PM

I think that’s why we love the 80s, on top of the childhood and adolescent nostalgia of the Gen X-ers.

More than this (heh) it was also a period of generational shift from Boomer teenagers to Gen X teenagers. It’s not just that we’re nostalgic about it in a generic way, it’s that it was the first point at which Xers were old enough to be allowed a say in defining the culture. Of course, many went the Alex P. Keaton route, but just as many rebelled against conservatism (not to mention against the “flower children were the only true rebels, past and present and future” dogma of Boomer liberals and progressives).

Comment #14: Gracchus.  on  11/12  at  01:35 PM

not to mention against the “flower children were the only true rebels, past and present and future” dogma of Boomer liberals and progressives

And, who were these Boomer liberals and progressives who believed this? Because I don’t think I’ve ever met ‘em, but I know plenty of boomers.

Comment #15: atheist  on  11/12  at  01:39 PM

elpathos, I’m sorry, but suggesting that white men that live in the suburbs were the *freaks* and that’s the whole story isn’t going to fly.  It’s not the feeling of freakishness, but the anger at having what you believe is your birthright—-control of the airwaves—-taken from you.  Which is, writ large, the complaint of wingnuts who feel so oppressed.

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  01:41 PM

atheist, because you haven’t personally been exposed to Woodstock nostalgia doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  01:42 PM

That’s not how I remember ‘Disco Sucks’ at all; as I remember it, it was a working-class, pro-rock attitude from the kind of people who voted Democrat because the Republicans were always trying to fuck the unions. And by ‘people’ I mean men and women, not just stereotypical angry white boys. The gay thing was barely on anyone’s radar where I lived.

I also remember the 1980s as less about the culture wars (though, oh yes, they were there) than about the death of the earth-huggy vibe of the 70s and 80s, and full-on bore with the culture of Greed is Good. Human League? Indeed, but let’s not forget that our future was so bright we had to wear shades, right up until the Japanese car companies came in and Reagan took PATCO apart.

Comment #18: mythago  on  11/12  at  01:46 PM

Its always amazed me how much my generation goes for 80s nostalgia. I remember people watching the Vh1 specials fanatically in high school and so many people my age sort of laugh knowingly at 80s references and 80s kitsch when we were born in the 80s, but certainly aren’t old enough to remember them at all.

I am also constantly surprised at how much anger musical taste can generate and had never thought of connecting it to the culture writ large. It makes a lot of sense though that Disco would have been seen as a threat to real manliness.

Comment #19: alysia  on  11/12  at  01:50 PM

Speaking as a child of the 80’s:

For me, the nostalgia is ALL ABOUT THE MUSIC. All of it.  The great, the good, even the bad (especially if it was played so much as to be unavoidable, which kind of makes it a guilty pleasure). There wasn’t much else I liked about the decade. I wasn’t into cocaine. I wasn’t into polictics at the time either. What I did do, however, was dance my ass off for the entire decade.  smile

Comment #20: Mark  on  11/12  at  01:53 PM

@Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte on 11/12 at 11:42 AM

atheist, because you haven’t personally been exposed to Woodstock nostalgia doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist

Oh, I’ve certainly been exposed to a lot of Woodstock nostalgia, both personally from boomers and in the media. Or even from people who could not possibly have been there. But I think it’s a bit of a leap to go from people being nostalgic about a certain time, to people claiming “flower children were the only true rebels, past and present and future”, as Gracchus put it @Comment #14: Gracchus on 11/12 at 11:35 AM.

What I want to know is, how many boomers actually believe they were the only true American rebels? Because I’m betting the number is pretty low.

Comment #21: atheist  on  11/12  at  01:55 PM

Disco fans were the finely-coiffed coke-sniffing snobs who wouldn’t let you into their clubs coz you didn’t wear the right outfit or cut your hair. 

Not most of them.

It’s like something that came up in the comments on the hipster post earlier.  You can seize on the bad tendencies of hipsterdom like snottiness and dismiss the whole thing on that basis, ignoring the good.  Lord knows you can do the same with disco, because there’s a lot of bad there.

But if you see the bad as definitional, in either case, that says more about you than does it the object of your contempt.

Comment #22: JasonB  on  11/12  at  01:57 PM

Speaking of Disco, I’ve been listening to this a lot lately.

Comment #23: atheist  on  11/12  at  01:57 PM

And, who were these Boomer liberals and progressives who believed this? Because I don’t think I’ve ever met ‘em, but I know plenty of boomers.

The ones I met while working on Dem campaigns back when I was young and idealistic, to use one example. It was always “you kids may think you’re making a difference, but you’ll never know what we went through. Lemme tell you about the ‘60s…” By 1986, some of my fellow Xers were helping run some of those Dem campaigns, and they’d tell me how there were some (though certainly not all) Boomer volunteers who didn’t respect and wouldn’t listen to anyone who hadn’t been politically active during the period 1965-1975.

Now obviously my anecdotes don’t trump your anecdotes, so I’ll point out that what Amanda calls “Woodstock nostalgia” was a cultural meme at the time, part of the premise of the Family Ties TV show I referenced above.

Comment #24: Gracchus.  on  11/12  at  01:58 PM

Amanda - That’s a pretty broad brush.  For the record, I grew up in Killeen Texas - sort of a micro-suburban environment, not exclusively white nor affluent in any sense, but its youth were just as disaffected and confused as those in the San Fernando Valley.  The biggest problem I had with commercial radio was the constant repetition of the same 30 songs day in and day out.  My old gang mostly stopped listening to the radio long before “Tragedy” was released because it wouldn’t play what we were listening to.  And it never did so it’s not like we abandoned it because of disco.  We hung out at the local record store looking for the unique stuff like bootlegs and imports which never got any airplay as far as we knew, and that made them even more attractive.

Comment #25: elpathos  on  11/12  at  02:29 PM

One interesting thing about 80s music is that it seems like the mainstream pushed the envelope on subject matter in a way that wasn’t seen much before or since—look at arguably the single biggest song of the 80s, “Every Breath You Take” by the Police. It was a stalker song (matched IMHO only by “Possession” by Sarah MacLachlan with a disturbing mix of creepy mash notes and hypererotic music) and was actually fairly typical of the Police’s output—“Wrapped Around Your Finger” was two codependents in a war of wills, “I Can’t Stand Losing You” was a suicide note from a passive-aggressive suitor, “Roxanne” was a guy in love with a prostitute who showed no inclination to give up the business… hell, even the relatively benign “Every Little Thing She Does Is Magic” was about a Nice Guy coming to terms with being a spineless failure.

Like I said, you do see it here and there. But grunge was probably the last mainstream genre to tackle subjects like that, and the mainstream female music of the 90s seemed to eventually be subtly ghettoized into the “Lilith” category after about 1995. By 1999, pop music had largely reverted to bubblegum crap, and it’s only in the last couple of years with people like Lady Gaga and Adam Lambert that we’re starting to get back the edge that made 80s music legendary. (Not to mention genre-benders like Ke$ha, Best Coast and Shiny Toy Guns, as well as pop-rockers like Gossip and Muse.)

Comment #26: BrianX  on  11/12  at  02:31 PM

Yep. Elvis Costello wrote a song directly about it. I’m genuinely skeptical that the way to “rebel” was to long for the days when they played more Zepplin on the radio. The rebellions of punk, indie, and hip hop strike me as more genuine in their disaffection.

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  02:33 PM

I do believe the term you’re looking for is “Reagan Democrat”, myth. Those folks are still voting Republican.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  02:35 PM

Part of the reason the Rock Band 3 setlist is totally awesome is all the disco influenced 80s music in the game. Also the music from the past few years which is 80s nostalgia. And the downloads announced for next week: the Bee Gees.

I had a conversation recently about how weird it is that I (and pretty much everyone my age) has such nostalgia for cultural things which are a direct result of Cold War nuclear paranoia.

Comment #29: Matthew Morse  on  11/12  at  02:36 PM

@Comment #24: Gracchus on 11/12 at 11:58 AM

The ones I met while working on Dem campaigns back when I was young and idealistic, to use one example. It was always “you kids may think you’re making a difference, but you’ll never know what we went through. Lemme tell you about the ‘60s…” By 1986, some of my fellow Xers were helping run some of those Dem campaigns, and they’d tell me how there were some (though certainly not all) Boomer volunteers who didn’t respect and wouldn’t listen to anyone who hadn’t been politically active during the period 1965-1975.

Interesting. Sounds like you have been politically active longer than I have. My organizing experiences are mostly since 2003.

Gracchus, is it possible that, due to the different times you and I encountered boomers politically, we caught them in different phases? Depending when your organizing was, maybe at that time the boomers were just realizing their age and were lashing out bitterly? Whereas the ones I encountered years later had already accepted that youth was gone, and therefore acted kinder?

In any case, the reason this issue of “the legacy of the boomers” seems important to me is that the conservative movement is always fighting to define the memory of the boomers and their era. For better or worse the era 1960-1975 had a lot of progressive gains, and the conservative movement has been fighting to erase or co-opt the memory of it for decades now. Sometimes, when younger folks express bitterness toward the boomers, it sounds to me like the youngers are buying into that “frame”. I don’t think we need to put boomers on some kind of pedestal, but I do think that we should look at their actions/times with some sense of perspective & understanding.

Comment #30: atheist  on  11/12  at  02:38 PM

Comment #22 *Not most of them. *

Huh?  Disco clubs practically invented the red rope.  Most discos had dress codes for men.  I sense a bit of revisionist history in this thread.  Disco was a very restrictive cultural club.  Sure, you could dance and party like there was no tomorrow. so long as you looked the right way.

Comment #31: elpathos  on  11/12  at  02:38 PM

@ chibi #5 - I didn’t realize until a year ago or so that the beat for “It’s Tricky” is part of the hook from “My Sharona” (thank you wikipedia!).  Jam Master J had seriously eclectic tastes.

As to the resentment of disco, it was definitely largely what you say, Amanda, but some of it was also a backlash against commercialism in music which, at the time seemed to involve music companies making disco-this and disco-that out of virtually anything.  There was an unbelievable amount of utter crap on the radio (most of which people don’t play any more, because it was, well, utter crap) that flew under the Disco! banner.  Record companies went way, way overboard selling everything as disco, and especially in the constrained media environment of the late 1970s it seemed at times like there was no escape. 

Some of that reaction drove angry, white reactionism (that was the key force behind “Disco Sucks!”).  Some of it drove people towards punk (I think I remember Joey Ramone saying something to the effect that CBGBs was the place for people who’d never be allowed in the door of Studio 54).  Most people in the country never encountered the genuine, subversive, underground disco scene from early to mid-70s NYC, just the commercialized, already-sold-out version from a few years on.  So “disco” came, for a lot of people I think, to stand for insincere, commercial, worthless crap foisted off on the public to make a quick buck.  A little bit like people who hate pop-punk because of Blink 182 but have never heard the Fastbacks or Mr T Experience or Buzzcocks.

And speaking of Buzzcocks, I’ll see your “Don’t You Want Me?” and raise you a “Homosapien”: http://youtu.be/RE3ut79zlIs

Comment #32: Pesto  on  11/12  at  02:42 PM

the anger at having what you believe is your birthright—-control of the airwaves—-taken from you

Replace “the airwaves” with anything, and you have the wingnut philosophy.  “The economy.”  “Your women.”  “Your slaves.”  “Public spaces.”  “Your car.”

They want to control everything, and rage when they can’t.  And they blame the most immediate objects, brown people, women, etc., not realizing that a huge chunk of the control they so covet has actually been taken from them by banks, giant corporations, free trade, and similar right-wing economic forces or policies.

Comment #33: libdevil  on  11/12  at  02:46 PM

El, you’re overlooking—-dramatically—-how AOR had a “No queers, no women, almost no people of color” sign on the metaphorical door.

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  02:49 PM

@Amanda—no OUT queers, etc.  Or out, but still denialized in a la-la-la-I’m-not-listening-to-you way by the audience.  Elton John, David Bowie, and Queen were all major stars in the 1970s, and got lots of radio play.

Comment #35: Pesto  on  11/12  at  02:55 PM

I admittedly have no sympathy for men who pitch fits over having to shave and wear clean shirts to go out and be amongst women who uncomplainly shave, do their hair, wear make-up, etc. On the contrary, I resent male slovenliness.

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  02:56 PM

Lol, Pesto. I remember the genuine surprise when Freddie Mercury was outed and died.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  02:57 PM

Not laughing at the tragedy. Laughing at the surprise. My heart actually breaks for Freddie Mercury.

Comment #38: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  02:59 PM

If that doesn’t convince you, think about this: how many of the anti-disco rioters grew older and crabbier, moved to the suburbs, and now consider themselves members or fans of the Tea Party?

Uh. Straight white liberal female here. Disco sucked then, and still sucks. It never occurred to me then and now that my taste in music (Stones, Zep, Doors, Tull) was racist or bigoted. I think this whole thing is manufactured to fit a narrative.

Comment #39: tperky  on  11/12  at  03:02 PM

I have nothing really productive to add, just that this post made me think about Metric’s “Dead Disco”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEsr5Mm3JfE

There’s probably a reason in all that history why it was the indie rock anthem of 2003 (at least at my High School, it was).

Comment #40: HonestB  on  11/12  at  03:02 PM

And thank god for the reaction against privileged, male slovenliness.  On the other hand, I think we can all agree that Sigue Sigue Sputnik were a bit of an overreaction.

@#37: I guess everyone thought that Freddie and co were really big monarchists, or something.

Comment #41: Pesto  on  11/12  at  03:03 PM

The second half of the 80’s were my happiest years: I was in my 30’s, had a decent job & apartment… I blossomed.  I loved the rock-punk music, still do. Admitting that the majority of everything, including music, is mediocre at best, I thought New Wave or Punk or whatever it was called had a much higher percentage of really intelligent, funny and musically creative music.  Deep sigh.

My daughter is 13, and I kind of like her music choices: to my secret relief she doesn’t seem to like the Pop Singer Boy Bands much (weird how they look almost exactly like the Boy Bands from the 70’s & 80’s. And the suffering-teen songs! ish!)

I don’t recall if it was late 80’s or early 90’s when Susan Faludi’s “Backlash” book came out.  It was fascinating: I read it twice.  I like her comparison of women gaining rights to someone climbing a corkscrew: one progresses, but slides back, progresses some more, slides back again, but eventually reach your goal.

Comment #42: Kwillow  on  11/12  at  03:08 PM

Attitudes like @39 are what I think 80s nostalgia is all about rejecting. The fight was disco vs. rock. After the big blowout, examined or unexamined prejudices aside, kids after were way more likely to say I don’t have to choose.  @39’s unexamined belief that liking rock means not liking disco, rap, etc.?  New Wave rejected that, and thus did Gen X in larger numbers.

Comment #43: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  03:10 PM

Very true. It would be interesting to see the effect that making their connections to others very plain would have on their psyches. Would it tend to knock them back/neutralize them? Or would they simply ignore it/refuse to beleive it?

They’d get angry, and look for someone to take it out on.

This has been another edition of SATSQ.

Comment #44: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/12  at  03:12 PM

Disco never really grabbed me, but New Wave didn’t come out of prog rock, so I give disco props where due.

Can you believe that This song was made in the 1970’s during the height of Disco? Dude was so ahead of his time.

Comment #45: Mighty Ponygirl  on  11/12  at  03:12 PM

On the other hand, I think we can all agree that Sigue Sigue Sputnik were a bit of an overreaction.

You get the Ultraviolence remix of Love Missile F1-11 only if you pry it from my cold dead neurons.

Comment #46: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/12  at  03:17 PM

@39 and @43: Completely agree that it isn’t about having to choose either/or. You can be aware of the pernicious attitudes of a large part of rock or disco culture and still appreciate them both as music—this coming from someone who’s rediscovered the joys of metal and prog rock after many years of ignoring it.

I think that’s what’s so great about being a music fan nowadays—there aren’t as many stupid social barriers between different genres, although based on the recent hipster threads I a lot of inter-clique strife still exists.

Comment #47: Dr. Locrian  on  11/12  at  03:46 PM

eh, I still think disco sucks, in a very campy sort of way.

but then, I’m more of a punk type and resent having to bathe and shave before going outside as much as my boyfriend does :-p

Comment #49: jadehawk  on  11/12  at  03:54 PM

or, to put it differently, I’ll have to file Disco in the “I get where you’re coming from, but I’m still not going to make myself listen to this” file, right next to Jazz

Comment #50: jadehawk  on  11/12  at  03:57 PM

Attitudes like @39 are what I think 80s nostalgia is all about rejecting.

Wha??  I liked one genre and disliked the other - it’s not a “belief,” it’s a fookin’ matter of taste.

No matter, I misunderstood, I guess. “80s nostalgia” isn’t about people who lived the 80s looking back and saying “good times,” is it? It’s about crowbarring your narrative onto an imagined history you’ve constructed from reading about it. Sorry for not putting up a trigger alert, ‘Lissy! 

Sheesh.

Comment #51: tperky  on  11/12  at  04:19 PM

Boy it is so true that disco clubs could be very exclusionary.  I remember going to the Palladuim once with a few girlfriends.  We were so young but I can’t remember exactly when it was, definitely in the 80’s though.  I can’t even remember if we were old enough to get in, but probably not.  It was really scary to wait on that line.  I never thought we’d get in because what could be cool about a bunch of girls from Long Island?  And the door guys would straight out look you up and down.  We did get in though ,and of course now I realize it’s because we were young and beautiful and young and beautiful trumps cool every time.  I would hate to wait on that line now though!  LOL.  Yeah, no way.

I was a pothead and a total rock girl in the 80’s.  I never ascribed political motives to rock vs disco.  I am going to read that New Yorker article from the 70’s though, it looks interesting.  The 70’s I don’t know about, but the 80’s I definitely have nostalgia for.

Doesn’t everyone about their wonder years?

Comment #52: JennyLI  on  11/12  at  04:27 PM

***El, you’re overlooking—-dramatically—-how AOR had a “No queers, no women, almost no people of color” sign on the metaphorical door. ***

mostly no women would be more accurate. Heart was an AOR superstar back then, Pat Benatar and Janis Joplin also got major play, and I am sure there were others.

The one that made me laugh was the horror among some Metal fans when Rob Halford of Judas Priest came out. He set the dress code for 1980’s metal bands and that dress code was “London Leather Boy”. In some metal documentary I saw on VH1, Scott Ian of Anthrax (and a couple of others)expressed great amusement over how unwittingly homoerotic their stage getups were back in the day due to them imitating Halford.

Comment #53: Bruce from Missouri  on  11/12  at  04:28 PM

I really like this idea—of course, I’ll like everything 58x better than I did before when it is affiliated with Erasure. 

I think it’s very true that anti-disco rhetoric (I was in 5th grade in 1979-80 so I remember it a little bit from when it was new-ish) was about both norm-policing (“disco is gay”)... _and_ “authenticity.”  It wasn’t Real Music by Real Artists, it was just slick product, vapid and shallow.

Comment #54: FlipYrWhig  on  11/12  at  04:31 PM

Interesting how culture that is considered feminine is often also considered shallow. Even if it’s really not.

Comment #55: atheist  on  11/12  at  04:36 PM

Sorry, well, not really, but amongst me and my fellow heshers, (I know, I know, what do WE know, bunch of little D&D;playing shits), our complaint was the total lack of talent among the so-called musicians. Producers wrote the tracks, session bands played the tracks, live appeareances were lip-synced (watch the human league video, the synth player on the left of the stage facing it isn’t even trying to pretend to play), and voices either dubbed or manipulated to the point were the singers aren’t singing the damn song. The ghey thing? We were in catholic school and did not believe that a.)gays existed or that b.) if they did they wouldn’t dare show their faces in society. (By the way, I apologize for that every day, christ were we stupid.) Besides which, in retrospect, and he has admitted it himself, Rob Halford’s look and lyrics were gayer than a treeful of monkeys on nitrous oxide, and the whole Leather movement, which we happily jumped in on when money was available, was stolen wholesale from the London queer scene. Women? We all totally dug on Joan Jett, Pat Benatar. Were there happy metal bands that were totally pre-programmed and useless to us? Calling Winger, is there a Motley Crue in the house?
No, we weren’t paragons of enlightenment. And I know nowadays that Donna Summer, Nile Rodgers, and a handful of others were completely amazing musicians. And as I age, my tolerance for cheese has gone up exponentially (yes, I own ABBA Gold, and will smack with a large stick anyone who mocks me for it - cheese, but unbelievably talented and well crafted cheese.) But 95% of Disco was pain on a platter.

Comment #56: paleotectonics  on  11/12  at  04:39 PM

I had a conversation recently about how weird it is that I (and pretty much everyone my age) has such nostalgia for cultural things which are a direct result of Cold War nuclear paranoia.

It wasn’t just paranoia. We really were on a knife’s edge of nuclear armageddon. And I suspect that that fear had a fairly large (though not entirely obvious) effect on culture.

Disco was the introduction of the synthesizer and sequencer (or drum machine) into mainstream music. To some folks it was mechanical, cold, “plastic.” I remember looking at a Giorgio Moroder record and marveling that the rhythm was so precise that it made highly visible radial bands across the grooves. It was great music to dance to, with the emotional and intellectual content deliberately light. It was happy, physical music, an antidote to a background of existential fear.

Punk was as much a reaction to disco’s sterility as it was rebellion against the establishment and what was felt to be stagnant, over-polished, over-produced AOR. Perhaps it was because I was living in California in the 70’s and 80’s and spent some time sniffing around the edges of the L.A. punk scene, but I never got the sense that the reaction against disco was politically reactionary. Quite the opposite. Disco was yuppie music—exclusionary, coke-sniffing music. Punk was working-class, transgressive.

So I reject Amanda’s duality and would claim that music in the 80’s was a triangle between Disco (and club music in general), superannuated AOR (in which I include both guitar heroics and prog-rock) and the youthful aggressive ferment of punk/new-wave.

Comment #57: weirdnoise  on  11/12  at  04:49 PM

I graduated from Evanston Township High School in 1980 .  A lot of my friends went to Disco Demolition - I considered going.  I can tell you - among our crowd - Amanda’s characterization is mostly off (although I will admit partially true).

Disco was the music of assimilation, the “In-Crowd” “Cool Kids” “Jocks” etc.  I had a number of friends who were openly gay (by 70’s standards at least - there friends new they were gay) - and they weren’t in the Disco Crowd.  By 1979 - Disco - from the perspective of 17-18 year olds - was complete “Establishment”.  Disco had run it’s course.  Punk and “New-Wave” was was cool.  Disco was commercial.

I think a lot of the perspective Amanda is posting about is the perspective of time.  From what I know looking back - Disco probably was “Cool” - but that would have been well before 1979…

Comment #58: fuzzbone  on  11/12  at  04:59 PM

Disco was yuppie music—exclusionary, coke-sniffing music. Punk was working-class, transgressive.

Really?  Maybe disco was yuppie at Studio 54.  But disco is _so_ gay/black/Latino, no?

Comment #59: FlipYrWhig  on  11/12  at  05:00 PM

Sorry, well, not really, but amongst me and my fellow heshers, (I know, I know, what do WE know, bunch of little D&D;playing shits), our complaint was the total lack of talent among the so-called musicians. Producers wrote the tracks, session bands played the tracks, live appeareances were lip-synced (watch the human league video, the synth player on the left of the stage facing it isn’t even trying to pretend to play), and voices either dubbed or manipulated to the point were the singers aren’t singing the damn song.

Sounds an awful lot like the early days of rock & roll. Phil Spector, anyone? Dave Batholomew and the New Orleans rock scene? Hell, the vast bulk of Memphis soul was written and performed by seven or eight guys (Issac Hayes, Steve Cropper) with different singers. Country music, despite the odd Hank Williams or Willie Nelson, has always been a producer/songwriter/studio session musician sort of thing (especially, interestingly enough, in the late ‘70s, early ‘80s). That’s the music bidness. And as for any “Stones versus disco” argument, I’ve got two words: “Miss You”.

For what it’s worth, I grew up a child of the ‘80s, but the only things I listened to then was country music, and that’s still my favorite era of the genre, and R&B;like Prince and Cameo. Plus, cowpunk like the Beat Farmers and Jason & The Scorchers, which has almost all “alt-country” beat all to hell. About the only “current” band that has that same feel is the Bottle Rockets.

Comment #60: Matt T.  on  11/12  at  05:05 PM

@ Matt T.:  “Miss You” is a good old-skool rock/disco crossover, as is “Another Brick in the Wall.”  (I like this Another Brick in the Wall/Stayin’ Alive mashup)

Comment #61: FlipYrWhig  on  11/12  at  05:18 PM

Gracchus, is it possible that, due to the different times you and I encountered boomers politically, we caught them in different phases?

Perhaps. By the time you caught them, I’m betting a lot of them took Bo-Bo Brooksie’s advice to heart and embraced their inner selfishness.

In that mode, it’s no longer cool to obsess endlessly over the glorious ‘60s when one is trying to impress—simply mentioning the period, then showing off some object of conspicuous New Age consumption will do to establish their progressive cred.

I mean, really, why go on and on about marching in sympathy for Southeast Asians when you can mention you were in the Movement and then show off your genuine Cambodian bamboo bidet, purchased for $10,000?

I don’t think we need to put boomers on some kind of pedestal, but I do think that we should look at their actions/times with some sense of perspective & understanding.

I’d agree. The problem is that a lot of them have been resting on their laurels while getting more and more conservative in practise, or (if they’re still liberals) waving those laurels to prove their superiority to other generations of progressives, past and future.

Comment #62: Gracchus.  on  11/12  at  05:22 PM

Most discos had dress codes for men.

What does this have to do with anything?  Lots of places and contexts have expectations about dress, stated or unstated.  And often very different ones from each other.  The overall effect is to make life less boring.

Comment #63: JasonB  on  11/12  at  05:25 PM

Whoops, I see the dress code thing has been covered already.

Comment #64: JasonB  on  11/12  at  05:27 PM

I’m going to agree with #58 and others. When I was in high school, Disco was everywhere and played by everyone. In my town, pretty much all the radion stations we could get played almost all disco. I didn’t hate disco in the beginning, but when a type of music you don’t like is played all the time (and on TV and the malls and buses and ...) then you begin to hate it. It’s true that disco elbowed out arena and classic rock, but it also kept out punk and new wave. This meant that there was a fairly large group of people who hated disco, but liked other gender bending music (the Iggy Pop’s and David Bowie’s and New York Dolls for example) or women dominated groups (Pretenders or X-Ray Spex or Siouxsie).
We hated disco because we were sick of it.

Comment #65: JohnL  on  11/12  at  05:27 PM

FlipYourWhig, the men who frequented the gay clubs where disco was born were for the most part yuppies, not working class. Although disco was derived from elements of funk and soul, like so much of the Black music that gets absorbed into other parts of our culture it was sanitized and stripped to its elements.

Comment #66: weirdnoise  on  11/12  at  05:28 PM

(It’s interesting to note that the reinvigoration of club music in the nineties—house music in Chicago, techno in Detroit—was due to further injections of African-American influence, once again quickly taken over by white producers.)

Comment #67: weirdnoise  on  11/12  at  05:34 PM

Really?  Maybe disco was yuppie at Studio 54.  But disco is _so_ gay/black/Latino, no?

In its orgins yes, but a lot of the “Disco Sucks” hatred was to The Bee Gees and K.C. and the Sunshine Band style of disco and none of us (HS grad ‘77) knew anything about the connection between gays and disco.

Comment #68: Col Bat Guano  on  11/12  at  05:34 PM

“Disco” is just another way of saying “dance music”.  New Order and some of the Clash’s stuff from Sandinista! is just as much disco as Erasure and Scissor Sisters and Depeche Mode.  The reaction against disco is pretty much a reaction against the idea that straight men could dance and not look gay.  Men enjoying their bodies is, was, and always will be only okay if it’s done in a sport that involves hurting people or a culture that hasn’t been affected by Western Homophobic Bullshit Culture.

Comment #69: 3letterjon  on  11/12  at  05:35 PM

I think that we might be able to split the anti-disco factions into at least three groups. Group 1 would be the White Male reactionism angry about disco because it revolved around women, people of color, and the LBGT community. Group 2 would be people in their teens and twenties who couldn’t get into disco because they weren’t cool kids. Group 3 are people who just don’t like disco. It is possible to belong to multiple groups.

Comment #70: Lee  on  11/12  at  05:50 PM

a lot of the “Disco Sucks” hatred was to The Bee Gees and K.C. and the Sunshine Band style of disco

Well, that’s just the thing.  Why would someone hate K.C. and the Sunshine Band?  Maybe someone who hates all pop music.  But suppose you’re not.  Suppose, say, you’re someone who digs the rock represented by the ‘Dazed and Confused’ soundtrack and hates “That’s the way I like it”, “Shake your booty”, and “Get down tonight”.  Why?  It ain’t your sensitivity to some huge difference in objective aesthetic value, that’s for sure.

Comment #71: JasonB  on  11/12  at  05:51 PM

I’ve had numerous arguments with my Nigel about disco.  Far as he’s concerned it was Teh Suck and he has a deep hatred for the Bee Gees.  Why?  It’s those falsetto voices!  Because no dude singers of dudely rock bands ever use that type of voice.  Baritones, all.

Comment #72: DonnaDiva  on  11/12  at  05:58 PM

*you’re overlooking—-dramatically—-how AOR had a “No queers, no women, almost no people of color” sign on the metaphorical door. *

I get your point, but there really was no entrance door to rock culture.  You’re overly romanticizing disco culture and misrepresenting 70s rock culture.  They may have been sparsely represented, but surprise, there were actual blacks and a lot of latinos who attended rock shows back then without being assaulted by white men, at least in Texas and there were frequent actual race riots at Texas high school football games during that decade!  Whites were frequently in the minority at shows in South Texas, for example.  This was only a decade or so after the civil rights bill, and venturing across the proverbial tracks wasn’t a decision for either side to make casually.  Male rock fans were mostly clueless about the homosexuals in their midst; they didn’t even think Freddie Mercury was ever gay after he came out.  But there certainly wasn’t a welcome mat laid out for gays either, which wasn’t a phenomenon exclusive to the rock scene.  Most disco clubs’ existence depended on attracting unattended females to adorn their venues for the pleasure of their male customers, so its understandable that very few young women were independently attracted to rock music at the time.  Also, rock fans stopped dancing at clubs in the 70s, which no doubt played a part in its decreasing popularity among women.  I don’t think you can really point to any tangible badge of entry to 1970s rock culture that significantly prevented people from experiencing it.

Comment #73: elpathos  on  11/12  at  05:59 PM

I liked one genre and disliked the other

Exactly.  You equated my saying, “Disco doesn’t suck” with “Rolling Stones suck”.  You reaffirmed a narrative that was, even if you don’t personally feel this, tied to larger issues, which is that you’re either Team Rock or Team Disco.  And once teams are declared, you’re going to pretend that racism, homophobia, etc. weren’t involved?  Sorry, not flying.

That was my point.  To be Team Disco doesn’t mean not to be Team Rock.  I never said, as you claimed, liking the Stones means you’re bad.  I like the Stones.  Your strawman was rooted in a belief that fed the culture war at the time, that to be into rock meant not to be into disco.  In the 80s, many musicians blended the genres, and blew the doors off that stale and yes, culture war loaded binary.

Comment #74: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  06:00 PM

To be clear, I reject the contention that a single genre of music sucks.  I’ve never heard that offered without the person offering it also smuggling in a lot of cultural assumptions about who is a fan of that music.  All genres have the potential to be great, and all have the potential to suck.

Comment #75: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  06:02 PM

el, you’re using hyperbole to knock at me.  I never said rock fans were the KKK.  As pointed out, repeatedly, I love a lot of rock.  Your investment in the binary is very revealing.

As for the notion that there’s no entrance door to rock, as a woman and a lifelong rock fan who has dealt with male rock fans, I strongly, strongly, strongly disagree.  My opinions and ideas have often been casually regarded as second rate due to Teh Vagina.  In the 70s, it was even worse.

But the very fact that there was a binary, and that you’re invested in it?  That’s the point!  One of the reasons New Wave was what it was had to do with rejecting that binary.  You can like disco and be a rock band.  You can incorporate the sound.  See: Blondie, Talking Heads, PIL.

Comment #76: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  06:10 PM

I would also say that when I say, “Much of what made the Disco Sucks people mad was music that was more queer and black was dominating the radio,” it’s not much of a retort to say, “Nuh-uh, I was just mad that this music was being played and the music I like wasn’t.”  That is basically what I’m saying, just without the political analysis regarding who had a voice in disco and who had a voice in rock.

Comment #77: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  06:14 PM

I am way to young for this, but a question and a comment.

1.) Do Scissor Sisters count as disco? The DJs at my high school football games used to blast “Don’t Feel Like Dancing.” Everyone loved it. Maybe it is post-disco?

2.) John Derbyshire once called “Saturday Night Fever” his favorite movie and wrote a whole piece on it. Figure that out.

Comment #78: John Joel Glanton  on  11/12  at  06:15 PM

*too, ugh. Sticky keys

Comment #79: John Joel Glanton  on  11/12  at  06:16 PM

Also, as noted in the post, it wasn’t just the dislike of what is currently pop music.  Some fans are always less catered to by the radio than others.  How those that feel out react is another story.  The vast majority of the time, they complain a little and move on.  They don’t start a grassroots movement and they certainly don’t riot.  That’s another level of anger, and the music itself doesn’t do much to explain it.  Ideas of who is entitled to space on the dial have to fill in to really generate that level of outrage.

Comment #80: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  06:18 PM

Or they could take their feelings of being left out and make something positive.  Punk has more in common with the early days of disco than it does with AOR rock—-it was about people who didn’t have space in the mainstream creating a subculture.  Not rioting because they didn’t get as many FM spots as they deserved.

Comment #81: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/12  at  06:21 PM

Your investment in the binary is very revealing.

This coming from the person who has unilaterally announced that because she grooves on the 80s, all anti-disco sentiment is just the previous incarnation of the Tea Partiers? I mean, yes, it makes a nice rhetorical loop, but a lot of people are pointing out that perhaps their hazy memories of the 1980s don’t quite match the picture you’re painting.

And frankly it’s a little surprising to keep seeing queer and black and Latino put together as if they were the same thing and all progressives back then were linked arm-and-arm against those rock hugging whiteys. Where I grew up - in a majority black urban area - the ‘black music’ was Motown, and later rap and hip-hop, it wasn’t disco, for fuck’s sake. Gay music? I imagine most of the disco-haters I knew would have found that an additional reason to bag on it, but it was far more about the utter media saturation and yuppie image (back before we called them yuppies).

I loves me some Erasure too, but having been a little older in the 1980s I’m a bit baffled at the nostalgia for anything but some of the music. From my perspective the 80s were less about woo disco queerfest than they were about the collapse of an economic base that had sustained hard-working working-class families, and provided a ticket out of poverty for black families and for women; they were about the idolization of sociopaths in suits and a complete rejection of the 70s progressivist attitude. There’s a reason that cocaine and not, say, pot was the hip drug of the 1980s. No wonder the punks were so angry.

Comment #82: mythago  on  11/12  at  06:28 PM

Also, this stuff up thread about how it was punk that anti-disco people really wanted is totally Whig history.  A minuscule fraction of the American population listened to the Ramones in the ‘70’s, still less any other punk band.  Until new wave, it was extremely subcultural.  The rock that ‘opposed’ disco was the rock of ‘Dazed and Confused’.

Comment #83: JasonB  on  11/12  at  06:30 PM

Amanda, my memory of “New Wave” was that it was a term invented by the music industry because “punk” was too scary-sounding for them to market.  Talking Heads and Blondie were absolutely part of the Punk scene in NYC.  But like the London scene (and to some extent SF and LA scenes), its sounds were a lot looser and more varied before everything broke open and people decided that “punk” meant 3 chords and a lot of screaming while the audience gobbed on the band.  Blondie’s and TH’s record companies called them New Wave as a way of marketing them.  So, I’d say the synthesis was part of Punk, but Punk also engaged in provocative binaries, as well (Sex’s famous “One day you’re going to wake up and KNOW what side of the bed you’ve been sleeping on!” shirt being the best example).  So I think it’s played out in very complicated ways at the time.

I’m not exactly sure what PIL would have called themselves when they were founded, but I doubt they called themselves a “new wave band”.  Post-punk, maybe?  Now, it’s true that the Adverts sang “Safety in Numbers” way back in 1977, but I’m not sure the line “Whatcha gonna do with your new wave?” was specifically about a new genre of music that came to be called New Wave.

@DonnaDiva #72:  The Bee Gees were a very interesting case, because they were obviously very, very talented, and had already been very successful as a pop band in the 1960s.  But after “Saturday Night Fever” they were ubiquitous, and it got sort of insufferable.  The low point was the Robert Stigwood-produced Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hears Club Band film starring the Bee Gees and Peter Frampton, featuring Steve Martin and George Burns and Aerosmith and Billy Preston and god knows who else.  That film seemed to represent a crazy, overhyped, totally artificial and awful-sounding approach to music and culture in general.  Hey, let’s hire the Biggest, Most Famous people and sing the Beatles, who were the Biggest and Best Band Ever!  It’ll be the Best Movie ever, and audiences will lap it up!

It was really, really alienating and crass to a lot of people.  Imagine the people at Disney who churn out all the tween music/tv stars today running the entire record industry, and selling everything they put out as “disco”.

Comment #84: Pesto  on  11/12  at  06:33 PM

Ouch - I’m not invested in the binary.  I’m a 48 year old drummer whose played across genres.  Developing a preference of one melodic or lyrical style isn’t always rooted in some evil intent or cultural baggage,  particularly for a musician who’s been sufficiently schooled.  There is good disco music and bad rock music.  That is all.

Comment #85: elpathos  on  11/12  at  06:33 PM

I like disco.  Disco did fill the same cultural space as Kesha, Black Eyed Peas, lady Gaga and rihanna do now, so if you don’t like those bands you probably wouldn’t have liked disco back in the day.

Comment #86: lemmy caution  on  11/12  at  06:55 PM

This is the kind of thing that was the alternative to disco at the time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcxMHhkzH_0

Highly expressive singing, guitar-oriented, poppy but not really danceable.

Comment #87: lemmy caution  on  11/12  at  07:03 PM

Amanda, you continually compare punk to disco, but punkers in the 1970’s hated disco more than they hated arena or prog rock. Their roots were 50s rock.

Comment #88: JohnL  on  11/12  at  07:11 PM

Tagging onto Pesto @32 - Radio stations would change their format overnight. Steve Dahl worked at WDAI (AOR format) in Chicago, and after coming off the air for the day, found out that WDAI was going to be all disco starting the next day. He stuck around for another week or so before they fired him for playing disco versions of In a Gadda Da Vida and Pink Floyd’s Have a Cigar, basically, the worst disco music he could get his hands on.

By the time of Disco Demolition, disco was popularly represented by bubble-gum outfits like KC & the Sunshine band, not the offerings of Parliament or some of the Ohio Players’ better sides.

Comment #89: I Heart Puppies  on  11/12  at  07:14 PM

It’s those falsetto voices!  Because no dude singers of dudely rock bands ever use that type of voice.  Baritones, all.

This, of course, explains the testosterone-and-guitar-drenched music of bands like Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath. grin (There’s falsetto and then there’s falsetto...)

Comment #90: weirdnoise  on  11/12  at  07:45 PM

Further reading (no time to comment, sorry!):

A picture essay from that night at Comiskey.

Comments about the photo essay (unfortunately, a much larger thread seems to have been eaten by the Reader’s redesign).

A critique/discussion from Time Out

An interview with Steve Dahl

I also highly recommend this VH1’s documentary on the era:  “NY77:  The Coolest Year In Hell”.  Also, though not disco related, Sex: The Revolusion, which covers the 50s through the early 80s in 4 one hour parts.

Comment #91: NY Expat  on  11/12  at  08:23 PM

To be clear, I reject the contention that a single genre of music sucks.

Hope you’re not a musical theatre hater like a lot of the IMS’s I know are, that’s a genre you could probably write about in terms of these very same marginalized groups.

Comment #92: typist  on  11/12  at  08:50 PM

I do not get the complaint that any musician or band that doesn’t play music or songs that they composed themselves are bad. For most of pop music history, musicians never played music that they composed or sang lyrics that they wrote. The separation of the produces of music and the actual performers is the tradition in pop music. Singer-songwriters never really existed before the garage band era.

Comment #93: Lee  on  11/12  at  10:45 PM

JohnL, #88:

More’s the pity, since punk and disco both stemmed from similar senses of alienation.

Comment #94: BrianX  on  11/12  at  11:26 PM

Cleanup on aisle #95…

Comment #95: BrianX  on  11/13  at  03:19 AM

I mean, I’d do it myself, but I’m busy reading an article on the Grauniad, downloading recipes from the BBC food site, and grabbing some older-than-dirt source code packages from a university in South Africa.

Comment #96: BrianX  on  11/13  at  03:22 AM

Wait, 80’s pop is considered disco? [Not upset about this—I love disco AND 80’s pop.]

Another thread of support for your argument here, Amanda: most goth music histories would claim that goth grew out of punk—but I think disco is plainly an ancestor, too. The synthesizer [or computer versions thereof] is probably the most prominent instrument in goth music [with all of its subgenres] and EVERY goth club has a dancefloor. Goth is about performance, particularly subversive performance. And every goth I have ever known has an affinity for at least a couple 80’s bands or performers. Goth may not be a huge subculture, but, I thought it deserved a comment-footnote.

Comment #97: jenlillith  on  11/13  at  03:34 AM

#98:

It’s a little schizoid. The Pet Shop Boys were still considering themselves disco in the early 90s, but I don’t think you’d have many of the American dance music artists of the 80s and 90s using the term, even though freestyle in particular is clearly a direct descendant. (Seriously, if you see a sharp dividing line between New Wave, disco, and freestyle, you’re trying way, way too hard.)

Comment #98: BrianX  on  11/13  at  04:20 AM

While the people who were sufficiently motivated to attend a disco record burning party in a stadium at least seem like they could be budding culture warriors, with all the homophobia and latent racism that entails, I would agree with the other commenters and I would guess that the wider mainstream backlash against disco had more to do with its ubiquity and rapidly declining quality due to all the attempts to cash in and less to do with wanting to reclaim radio for white folks. And it *was* ubiquitous, every cheesy TV show had to have at least one disco episode, the Sesame Street gang released a disco record, there were disco versions of the Star Wars theme song and the “I Love Lucy” theme. It was possible to simply be sick of it without signing on to the local chapter of the rust belt reactionaries.

Comment #99: brassknucklediplomat  on  11/13  at  05:02 AM

The trouble with disco was that guys had to go out and put their rump shaking skills on display. And that took effort. Finally men were like the rest of the animal world, and had to put on a peacock display to get laid.

Hey maybe the pick up artists internalized some of those peacocking skills. Some gold chains shirts unbuttoned, slacks showing what a tight butt you have. But of course you also have to have moves to show.

Comment #100: Hector B.  on  11/13  at  05:13 AM

I agree there was a great deal of homophobia in the “Disco sucks” movement. But that completely ignores the racism inherent in disco. Yes disco was about gay DJs hiring black singers (and that didn’t go away completely after Disco, think Milli Vanilli or Black Box). But the point is the singers were disposable (Village People had one straight guy, the singer as the other members were dancers) and he was the first to be replaced. It was about uppity blacks being superseded by their betters (do what we say or we will replace you). Disco killed Motown and that’s it’s ultimate sin. There was lots of Black rock (P-funk, Gogo, reggae) that was underground and you could groove to (I did) and it had more influence on punk, hip hop and new wave/new romantic music than anything the Bee Gees or the Village People or Meko did by far.

Comment #101: gordbrown48  on  11/13  at  12:04 PM

Disco never got to be such a bad word in Europe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_YXxjKIuM8

Comment #102: 3letterjon  on  11/13  at  12:08 PM

Disco killed Motown

Excuse me? Rap/hiphop killed soul music. Or, at least, soul music died and rap crawled out of its husk.

Comment #103: Hector B.  on  11/13  at  12:26 PM

Soul music is doing okay.  Probably in Brazil or Hungaria, but it’s still around.  Simply Red made great soul music in the 80s.  British soul never went away, and France still loves that stuff.  Cee-Lo is singing soul music, like it or don’t.  It’s out there, but there won’t be an updated Big Chill movie to show how important the soul of today is to today’s white people.  It’s more likely to have Justin Timberlake and Michael Cera as rich yuppies discussing Ice-T’s “Somebody’s Gotta Do It” at a dinner party while Chloe Moretz worries about having a baby or some crap like that.  Christopher Mintz-Plasse (who will by then be known as C-Mintz) will be the scarred veteran back from Afghanistan just in time for Andy Samberg’s funeral.

Disco didn’t kill Motown.  Motown killed Motown when it got greedy and stupid, but that’s true of every record company over the past thirty years.  The internet was just the merciful deathshot for the bloated, nearly dead things that were lying in the sun for the past decade, waiting to die and thrashing about trying to figure out how to run their stupid business model that has to figure out how to not use radio, video, or anything else that can easily be controlled using a network of sycophants.  But I digress.

Comment #104: 3letterjon  on  11/13  at  12:46 PM

Used to hate all forms of disco as a kid both because growing up, it was something a few older kids/adults listened to and later, I found a lot of the later stuff to be way to cheesy for me. 

Especially after I had to listen to it for 3 days in a row once because a friend wanted me to make some disco mix CDs for him and the CD ripping software/mp3s downloaded weren’t always reliable because of the then crappy state of CD-ROM/ripping software technology.  That forced me to listen to every .wave track all the way through to ensure there are no dropouts or crappy sound artifacts.  Worse…it was all the cheesy stuff like the Beegees and Disco Duck.  Yecchh!!

It was a miracle I wasn’t driven mad after those 3 days.  Fortunately, there was a reprieve when he asked right afterward to make a mix CD of 80’s rock and Motown.

Comment #105: exholt  on  11/13  at  01:30 PM

my first lover was at the Disco Sucks riot.  She never said anything that made me think her dismissal of disco was anything more than impatience with something that had been overexposed and was “soooo over” as the kids say these days, and maybe a certain fondness for seeing things get smashed up.

She was appalled by how it turned out, btw, so maybe she had missed the subtext herself and didn’t know how genuinely angry some of the people there really were.

Comment #106: Dr. Psycho  on  11/13  at  01:37 PM

I had thought Disco Demolition was just the fruit of guys drinking beer all afternoon in the hot sun, but apparently 90,000 people tried to get into the 52,000 seat ballpark. Clearly the anti-disco fervor was out there.

Comment #107: Hector B.  on  11/13  at  02:44 PM

Chicago House is another really important outgrowth of the disco riots, and totally supports your arguments, given black queer folks played a major/the major role in its genesis and it ended up being on of THE major influences on pretty much all dance music for the next two decades.

I think mainstream progressive and feminist narratives abt the 80s do characterize it as a wasteland, but there was a lot more than that going on… maybe especially for queer folks and feminists of color? Many of the classics of feminist of color “intersectionality” were written in the 80’s—THIS BRIDGE CALLED MY BACK; WOMEN, RACE AND CLASS; ALL THE BLACKS ARE MEN, ALL THE WOMEN ARE WHITE BUT SOME OF US ARE BRAVE, etc… Most of my mentors are young boomers or older Gen Xers who did some of their most intense social movement work during that period in ACT UP and the early politicized response to AIDS crisis, the Latin American and South African solidarity movements, etc. Complex times.

I wish I was in NY so I could come to your party.

Comment #108: Tim Jones-Yelvington  on  11/13  at  03:51 PM

Having lived through the disco era, I’m another who finds this narrative interesting, but not particularly accurate of my experience or that of my peers. Maybe one has to live in the heartland for this to ring true.

Disco sucked because it was repetitive, fake and overproduced.  Thank goodness there was always something with an edge, and thank goodness punk came about when it did.  And yay for the pre-punk innovators, which although in hindsight many of them may appear to share a lot with disco, they didn’t at the time.  Which is a beautiful illustration of just how ubiquitous disco was back then.

Over the years, some disco has grown on me, but nothing will ever make me think the BeeGees or KC and his Sunshine band are worth listening to.  Or that Rick Dees had either humor or talent.

The Human League was an amazing band, but their best stuff was before “Don’t you want me”.  I’m glad they made some money, but they totally sold out to the mainstream for their hits.

Comment #109: drachonfire  on  11/13  at  05:29 PM

Disco was long gone by the time I came of age- according to a friend’s dad, he mostly just listened to the allman brothers and ry cooder and a lot of country, as disco was ubiquitous.

I didn’t really think of it as being something good and fun until one night, I was driving around in a foul mood and “The Hustle” came on- instant mood brightner.


BTW, I allways blamed Whitney Huston for killing soul and creating the entire shmaltz niagra that is R&B;.  Vocal styles that make Jerry Garcia’s guitar work look consise and dignified, near total focus on romance- man I really don’t like R & B. Except for the Isley Brothers, and they’re older than R & B per se.

Comment #110: Indy  on  11/13  at  06:28 PM

eee… wrote a long comment and lost it abt what feels like the continued invisibility of black and latino queer folks even in this conversation.

I’ve no doubt there were issues w/ how disco entered the mainstream, and probably major racefail like always on the part of middle class white gay men, but find it hard to believe a place like, say, Paradise Garage was only visited by yuppies. My understanding was that what differentiated it from the burgeoning white middle class gay male culture in the West Village and elsewhere was its race and class mix. I know the punk vs. disco dichotomy is big in white leftist circles and in white gay male communities it definitely plays out as queer leftists vs. gay assimilationist—but I feel like this dichotomy totally closes out what disco meant for queer folks of color (not to mention the invisibility of black and latino punks). I do wonder to what extent queer black and/or latino men/trans women aren’t able to insert themselves in their conversation either because of their invisibility/lack of political/social/cultural capital or because they were some of the first folks claimed by AIDS.

Comment #111: Tim Jones-Yelvington  on  11/13  at  06:52 PM

I always thought that we won the culture wars in the 1980s. Wasn’t that the decade of falling wages that forced women into the work force? The big anxiety was about day care. Am I the only one who remembered all those bogus child molesting day care cases? It was the opposite of the 1950s, another big nostalgia decade, where women were forced out of the work place.

I figured the 1980s would be good for nostalgia because 1978 was the baby boom mode, the largest cohort hit 18 then. In the 1980s everyone was a young adult trying to find love, sex, fame and fortune. It’s a universal thing. You got a lot of 1940s nostalgia a generation back because that was another mode from the Great War baby boom in the early 20s. I can understand the 1980s nostalgia, but there was a nasty war in the early 40s if I remember correctly.

2007 was another big demographic mode, so expect nostalgia for the 20-teens in about 25 years. It’s something to live for. Go out and create now and you can do the talk circuit then.

Comment #112: Kaleberg  on  11/14  at  12:56 AM

Ah, gen-x mom of purple (or is it turquoise today?) haired teen here with piano tie ...

I twasn’t just rejection of Baby Boomer tropes and detached sexual liason veneration - it was partly AIDS and drugs took a bite out of the talent pool and the audience behavior and yet ...

something more ... something like the Smiths capture in Panic:

Burn down the disco
Hang the blessed DJ because the music that he constantly plays
SAYS NOTHING TO ME ABOUT MY LIFE

Baby boomers were aging and moving past the one-night-stand, drug sucking lifestyle celebrated and touted by popular music of the 70s (even if they didn’t live that way ever).  Those of us younger folk were already more conservatively inclined and then got jolted by the rise of Herpes and AIDS and weren’t so much into the relationship music - casual or otherwise - anyway.

And that, my friends, is about it.  Remember Boogie Nights when the clock hits midnight and it is 1980 and ...

Like that.

Comment #113: Ms Kate  on  11/14  at  01:09 AM

@Kaleburg

Something to look forward to!  (I should try to pay attention because if the nostalgia was going to be for the oughts, I have a feeling I’d spend most of my time asking everyone around me if they remember this or that because I certainly don’t.)  I’m sure all those upcoming viral videos will only get better with age.

Comment #114: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/14  at  01:16 AM

I think a reason why some people get hostile toward various genres of music has a lot to do with being forced to listen to a real short playlist over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.  If, for example, you ever had to work eight hour days in a store where you were subjected to How Deep Is Your Love and Silly Love Songs and Hot Blooded twenty times a day you’d be bitter too.  Similarly the awful experience of working for a few with guys who played “Classic Rock” stations absolutely non-stop has rendered me allergic to Led Zeppelin; I used to love Led Zeppelin, especially I & II.  Well, I still do, but those three songs - ah, make it stop, make it stop!

Another distressing aspect of the songs of that era was their air of boundless self-satisfaction.  All those guys singing disco are so full of themselves, so irresistible to the delicious and willing “brick house” women, so dedicated to partying all night long, so oblivious to the idea that there might be anything anywhere wrong with the world or even unlikelier, with themselves.  None of that “Here I stand / head in hand” business for these 100% winners!  Well, screw those guys.

Comment #115: W. Kiernan  on  11/14  at  12:45 PM

#117,

That’s the problem with nostalgia: it takes a big thing and makes it into little, recognizable parts that somehow encapsulate the bigger thing.  It’s why Duran Duran and the Go-Gos are the 80s to some people, while it’s all Madness and Motley Crue for others.  And also why they’re both “wrong”.  Somewhere, someone must have an 80s-Rehab website to showcase the unremembered 80s groups and records that somehow missed the nostalgia train.  Why the Lucy Show, Let’s Active, Ultra Vivid Scene, Wolfgang Press, Dead Can Dance, Throwing Muses, Big Audio Dynamite, and A.R.Kane are passed over on the dance floors is a mystery for me, but it’s always nice to have those special “secret favorites” that haven’t suffered the indignity of becoming Volvo ads or whatever it is that would make the bands rich and famous and accused of being Bandwagonesque or whatever.

I now hate/am bored with 80s nights at a local nightclub, since the same music is played over and over.  But that’s the “safe” dance music people pay to dance to.  It’s about John Cusack being romantic in a not-quite stalkerish way, Molly Ringwald not getting with Duckie but acknowledging his coolness somehow, and “White Lines”: it’s attitude, not anything real.  It’s dress up no more harmful than a Grease-themed party or going to see the Rocky Horror Picture Show.  And it’s still less expensive than the SCA.  And good exercise, if you participate in a meaningful way.

Comment #116: 3letterjon  on  11/14  at  12:59 PM

I remember a Disco cover story in Newsweek that pretty much seemed to be saying that disco was taking over rock and roll.  I was 18 at the time, and not a disco fan by any means.  However, I remember that it wasn’t your garden variety disco songs that I found particularly contemptible, but rock artists cashing in on the genre.  This group included the Rolling Stones (“Miss You”), Rod Stewart (“Da Ya Think I’m Sexy?”), Seals and Crofts (“You’re the Love”) and a bunch of others I can’t think of right now.  And, there was no Disco after 1980; probably as a result of all that “Disco Sucks!” the same style of pop hit was slyly renamed “Dance Music.”
Sort of off-topic, but Elijah Wald’s book “How the Beatles Destroyed Rock and Roll” has an interesting thesis that much of the direction of American pop music is determined by young women who buy the records and who like to dance.

Comment #117: Russell60  on  11/14  at  01:37 PM

Sort of off-topic, but Elijah Wald’s book “How the Beatles Destroyed Rock and Roll” has an interesting thesis that much of the direction of American pop music is determined by young women who buy the records and who like to dance.

A few long-time guitarists at one forum I frequent said that if a given band does not attract a sizable following of female fans, that band is extremely unlikely to sustain themselves long-term barring a great miracle.

Comment #118: exholt  on  11/14  at  11:47 PM

much of the direction of American pop music is determined by young women who buy the records and who like to dance.

As a tiny atom I was perplexed by my aunt who would obsessively watch American Bandstand to learn the latest dances, when we all could have been watching cartoons. It was a girl thing; I didn’t understand.

Comment #119: Hector B.  on  11/15  at  01:58 AM

A)  Disco does suck, but at least you can dance to it.
B)  The disco riot was stupid, but so was the event that caused it.  Dumb promotions gone awry are just that.
C)  There are always angry people looking for an excuse to gather with other angry people and make trouble.  Those people suck a lot worse than disco ever did.  Those people are also easier to gather than people like me, since I am a contented sort of person who likes to live and let live.  They are fodder for Teabagger Parties and religious extremists.
D)  There is no D.  I just wanted to have a D so this is it.

Comment #120: DBK  on  11/15  at  01:44 PM
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