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Next entry: Friday Non-Random Ten “Ch-ch-ch-anges” Edition Previous entry: Hiding behind the “free market” is just cowardly

Gun nuttery leads to bad analogies

ChoadsGuns

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So, I caught this clip of Lawrence O’Donnell arguing with Rep. Trent Franks about gun control.  Franks looks really, really stupid in this clip.  It’s hard to pull out the stupidest thing he says, but one particular item jumped out at me as something I could see taking off with the wingnutteria, and so I thought I’d deal with it right now.  Franks opposes even the teeniest measure of gun control proposed after this shooting, which is to limit the number of bullets you can put in a magazine, because the NRA has determined this is like lopping inches off your symbolic cock instead taking the whole thing, and that’s almost as bad.  And Republicans are just as owned by the NRA as by big business, though I suppose it’s worth pointing out that gun manufacturing is big business, and the NRA basically stands in for the financial well-being of the gun industry.  (For the gun industry, mass shootings are good business.  Glock sales shot up after the shooting, and the cynic in me has to point out that an incident where a man hit 19 people with 31 bullets is a good advertisement for the gun’s accuracy.  Sad, but I’m not the one running out to buy a Glock after hearing this story.)  Anyway, O’Donnell shouted Franks down, but it’s not like Franks had an argument.  Letting the ban on 30 round magazines die, as per the NRA’s wishes, meant the death toll is probably twice what it would have been.  Them’s just the facts.  It’s truly pathetic seeing people who only shoot guns at the range kick their heels like wee infants at the possibility that they may have to waste precious calories reloading more often so that future mass murders have fewer victims.  We’re not even talking about stopping mass murders at this point.  We’re just talking about minimizing the casualties.  And yet, whining.

Franks says that requiring a limit on magazine sizes like this is like trying to stop drunk driving by limiting the size of fuel tanks.  I realize this asinine analogy makes emotional sense to his intended audience—-big trucks, like big guns, being penis substitutes that are clung to like infants clinging to well-worn teddy bears—-but it’s a crappy analogy.  As O’Donnell makes clear, this is about limiting the damage that can be done once the horrible thing has happened.  So, really, the proper analogy is safety features and both cars and roads.  If someone gets behind the wheel drunk, the fact that we have seat belts, airbags, cars that are designed to crumple in the safest way they can, glass that shatters instead of breaks, speed limits, wide lanes, clearly marked roads, cars that drift right instead of left if someone passes out at the wheel, rails on bridges, medians, and traffic lights are all things that can reduce the chance that the drunk driver is going to kill someone, even if he gets into an accident.  It dramatically reduces the chance he’ll kill someone else. These things are technically impositions on our freedom.  They mean we can’t just drive around like wildcats, figuring out how to manage each other without any set rules.  But the benefit of safety far outweighs any theoretical gains from having no rules of the road and no safety features on cars.  Same with this high capacity magazine ban that’s being proposed.  There’s just no reasonable argument for why having to reload a little more often is an imposition that’s worth multiple human lives every year.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:56 PM • (107) Comments

Yeah, but it’s an ad hominem attack just like “death panels”: “OK, this proposal we have in front of us SOUNDS reasonable, but you just KNOW what Those People really want!”

Which is not at all racist.

Comment #1: RickMassimo  on  01/20  at  07:33 PM

Franks opposes even the teeniest measure of gun control proposed after this shooting, which is to limit the number of bullets you can put in a magazine, because the NRA has determined this is like lopping inches off your symbolic cock instead taking the whole thing, and that’s almost as bad.

Does that mean that extended magazines are like bigger cocks?

‘Cos, you know, if I had a thirty inch cock, I’m sure I’d be able to pull the ladies…

Comment #2: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/20  at  07:40 PM

Well how are people going to defend themselves from the blacks and mexicans when the race war starts cause you know whose side the government will be on. Yeah, that’s right, not with the people who started it.

Comment #3: pharmakos  on  01/20  at  07:41 PM

He supposedly used a Glock 19 9mm, which has a 15-round magazine standard.  So without the high-capacity magazine he would have had to carry another clip and reload once, which I think we can all agree is a huge burden for any future would-be assassin to face.

I don’t think people understand just how hard it is to go the Full Travis Bickle.  Anything that can lessen the number of factors involved in carrying out a good political assassination would be helpful.  So a 30+ round magazine represents one less thing to plan for and deal with while carrying out justice.

Of course, the real problem here is that Jared Lee Loughner (remember killers always have three names) chose to use a 9mm instead of something with more stopping power, like a .45 ACP.  If he had, the death toll might have been significantly higher, and Giffords wouldn’t have survived.  He kinda goofed up.  He made the kind of mistake that an older, more experienced person probably would have avoided.

So here’s the bottom line for you American patriots:  When you choose to use the 2nd Amendment remedy for electoral failure, make sure you carefully lay out a plan of action, and choose armament appropriate for the job you intend to do.  And remember, more is always better.  If you go with more rounds and a larger caliber you really can’t go wrong, and you can only improve your odds of success.

Happy hunting!...

Comment #4: MikeEss  on  01/20  at  08:22 PM

it was a joke about why someone would really want their weapons to be as dangerous as possible because you don’t need a 30 round to clip to kill a deer or to stop a home invasion or trick a family member into thinking its unloaded. As for who would be defening themselves in a race war, obviously the paranoid white people who live in a fantasy universe with the black helicopter and the black panthers and the acorns. It was an agreeing post because having very few or easily flouted laws makes little to no sense unless you have some apocalpse scenario in mind or you are the ceo of a gun company.

Comment #5: pharmakos  on  01/20  at  08:24 PM

So here’s the bottom line for you American patriots:  When you choose to use the 2nd Amendment remedy for electoral failure, make sure you carefully lay out a plan of action, and choose armament appropriate for the job you intend to do.

But, Mike, given that they have only themselves to blame for electoral failure, isn’t one bullet sufficient?

Comment #6: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/20  at  08:24 PM

“But, Mike, given that they have only themselves to blame for electoral failure, isn’t one bullet sufficient?”

...yeah, but do you know how difficult it is to penetrate Secret Service protection?  That’s why he went with an easier target…

(...sorry, I just made myself nauseous…urp…

...pretending to be a hardcore reichwing nutcase isn’t as easy as it looks…

...when you gaze into the nutcase, the nutcase also gazes into you…)

Comment #7: MikeEss  on  01/20  at  08:31 PM

“The author of this article…”

Really? You can’t see the name of the author of this post? Or is this some sort of cut & paste response the NRA gave you when you google the words “gun control”?

Comment #8: Mark  on  01/20  at  08:44 PM

Oh boy, the gun nut has come in to tell people their words are wrong, because ‘nobody’ uses those words.  And that reloading isn’t a trouble at all…

...Except, those are the words used by the idiots using guns (as opposed to the policeman, apparently); and the assassin was stopped as he reloaded.

So, umm, what exactly was the point of BlauStolz@10?

Comment #9: Crissa  on  01/20  at  08:50 PM

BlauStolz, my “analysis” was meant as satire.  So failing to (consistently) use the preferred term for a magazine really isn’t what’s important there. 

I’m sure your points are perfectly valid, but entirely beside the real point, which to my mind is: What the hell is wrong with these fucked up white assholes that makes them believe they have the <strike>right</strike> duty to make “adjustments” to the society they live in using bullets/anthrax/explosives?  Are there things we can do that at least lower the odds of some nutcase deciding to take a few people out?...

Comment #10: MikeEss  on  01/20  at  08:53 PM

Firepower is a important factor in choosing a gun for ones selected purpose, and the point of high capacity magazines is for killing people.

I’d argue that people have a human right (outside of the constitution, like the right to have food and water) to have the ability to kill people, and being able to posses a proper weapon for the job is included in that right. I also think that it’s only fair for individuals to be able to match the firepower that the state polices forces can bear against them, which in the US would be automatic weapons and grenade launchers.

Amanda, though I understand the observation of insecure masculinity and penis size among right wing gun culture I think your arguing in bad faith to state that wanting destructive weaponry boils down to just that singular reason. My reasons to want weapons comes from an asexual, autistic, genderqueer POV.

Comment #11: R.T.  on  01/20  at  08:54 PM

yo internet I am also a policeman, honest, and I carry around lots of guns and enjoy using gun related words and there are realistic scenarios where a cop might need to shoot 30 bullets without reloading for example, ninjas. You have watch out for those and you don’t have time to reload when they are charging at you with katanas

Comment #12: pharmakos  on  01/20  at  08:57 PM

I have a good friend who is a tea party sympathizing target shooter.  I, for those who haven’t seen my prior posts on guns, am on the far left, and I like the second amendment quite a bit.

Neither one of us see the point in a 30 round magazine.  They look ridiculous on the range, and in target shooting, it really isn’t hard to reload.  As my friend the tea partier put it “if you need thirty rounds that fast during a shootout, you’re going to die anyways.”

Also, Loughner was in fact taken down while trying to *reload.*  So anyone saying reloading doesn’t matter when it comes to taking down an armed assailant is full of it.  A few seconds on a range doesn’t matter much, but IRL, that’s the safest time to rush the shooter.

He fired 31 bullets, without reloading, which means he had one round chambered in addition to the 30 in the magazine.

I don’t believe in banning handguns, but I do believe in banning high-capacity mags for citizens.  And as for how that will be enforced, well, just like any other gun law is enforced.  The things are pretty goddamn big—it really isn’t rocket science, where an automatic rifle from the outside can look just like a semi-auto one.

Comment #13: Ismone  on  01/20  at  09:06 PM

Did you watch the fucking video?  He had extra magazines, and when he tried to reload, he was taken out by the people he was attacking.  It DID make a fucking difference!  HE DID NOT GET TO RELOAD, IT DID NOT HAPPEN, RIGHT THERE, IN THE EVENT THAT HAPPENED ONLY A WEEK AGO. 

There are no hypotheticals, no “what ifs”, no bullshit rationalizations for why you need the tools to carry out mass murders.  In the actual events that actually happened, he got one round of shots, and then he was stopped.  In the actual events, there were “responsible gun owners” at the scene, and they did not shoot him-they did not even get their weapons drawn until after the rest of the citizens took him down, and the only thing their guns let them do was help restrain him.

Comment #14: Toitle  on  01/20  at  09:06 PM

Well, shit R.T., while I see your point, what about nukes?  Landmines?  AMRAAMs?  Cluster bombs?  Fighter jets?  Leaving out Larry Ellison’s MIG of course.

I’m not all that trusting of the government, either, but there have to be lines.

Comment #15: Ismone  on  01/20  at  09:09 PM

’‘...the point of high capacity magazines is for killing people.”

...no, the point of handguns is killing people.  (Revolvers, which don’t have magazines, let alone large capacity magazines, have killed a hell of a lot of people, and most of them only hold 6-rounds.) 

When you skip over that and go on to arguing over the capacity of their magazines, it’s already too late.  You’ve already bought into the gun-nut world view and now you’re just arguing over details.

“Madam, we’ve established what you are; now we’re just haggling over the price…”

Comment #16: MikeEss  on  01/20  at  09:10 PM

Well, MikeEss, as I already explained, there can be a legitimate self-defense purpose for a gun, but a 30-round mag really only makes sense if you want to kill a lot of people quickly. 

Unlike in action movies, someone with no cover isn’t going to be able to just fire off 30 rounds in self-defense, assuming they need to fire that many off.  If you don’t have cover and time enough to reload in a situation that deadly, you’re going to probably die anyways.

So the point being, self-defense scenarios that are dire enough to require that kind of high-capacity mag don’t realistically exist, self-defense scenarios where having a gun at all can be the difference between life and death *do* exist.

Comment #17: Ismone  on  01/20  at  09:14 PM

On the remote premise that BlauStolz is not a troll, let me elaborate. Insofar as you carry a sidearm as part of your active-duty police responsibilities, almost nobody here really questions your right to do so. Insofar as you enjoy blowing off steam by going to the gun range and shooting targets, and otherwise keep that weapon securely locked up, preferably at the range and out of your house, where it is TEN times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder, nobody really questions your right to do so or the amusement/release you get from it. Insofar as you help to feed yourself and/or your family by hunting with firearms, most people don’t really give a crap, either. But if you feel the need to walk around with a penis-substitute capable of killing 30 people in just a few seconds, you, like millions of other Americans, ought to be by that very desire forbidden from doing so.

Look, the president is black, and tens of millions of Americans want universal healthcare, higher taxes on rich people and corporations, an end to wars of choice and to live in a society where expenses and incomes are (more) pooled for everyone’s benefit. Deal with it. You can disagree, even vehemently, but nobody on the Left murders innocent people out of political disagreement. It’s only your buddies on the right with their penis-substitute fetish that kill innocents.

Comment #18: felagund  on  01/20  at  09:15 PM

Comment #18: Ismone

For me it’s not a matter of trusting the government, it’s about the unacceptable brutality privileged groups use against non-privileged groups, the police just being one of their tools in eliminating those they don’t like.

I think government can work, I want discussion and ideas to prevail in society, but I recognize that for some groups it’s in their interest to destroy and oppress others and since they won’t recognize anything but violence, when they attempt to kill you you should be able to kill them as a last resort to defend yourself.

Comment #19: R.T.  on  01/20  at  09:16 PM

R.T.—While I share many of your concerns, if we make the weapons the government has legal, that means all of them.  And I’m not ready for citizens to have mortars.

Comment #20: Ismone  on  01/20  at  09:20 PM

@BlauStolz

In the spirit of benefit of giving new people the benefit of the doubt, here is some information for you:

1) Magazines are frequently referred to as “clips” in common parlance.  Don’t be a dick and assume everyone who’s liberal has never handled firearms.

2) The comment about “race wars” refers to the number of people who “gun nut” overlaps pretty heavily with “racist” and “sexist”.  Not all gun nuts are this way, but a significant chunk of the gun culture is this way.  Go to a gun show- take a look at the Confederate flag memoriablia, the books that get sold along side with the firearms, the pictures of guys and women posing with guns (and how the postures are entirely different).  If you feel comfortable, ask a couple of the people their views on women and race.  If you are Hispanic, I suspect you’ll get the more restrained versions.  But trust me**, as the person who has to listen about how Mexico is “overtaking the United States” and how the “president is illegitimate because he isn’t a citizens, and we know what we have to do about illegitimate governments (some out of context Founding Father’s quote here)”, I know that there is a lot of racism underneath that surface, not even buried particularly deep.  Don’t believe me?  Go onto some forums for gun enthusiasts (if you dare).  I’d love to go on there, but they tend to be about as female-friendly as 4chan.

3)  The proposed regulation would ban the “purchase, transfer, or importation” of high capacity magazines.  There are the regular exception for police and military, and if you already own a high-capacity clip, you get to keep it.  Full text available here: http://www.capitaltonight.com/2011/01/mccarthys-magazine-ban-bill/

At everyone else who I know aren’t trolls:

I feel weird about this discussion, because for once I have no strong feelings about this one way or another.  This, to me, should be about as a dispassionate a discussion on whether or not traffic lanes should be set at 10 feet or 12 feet*- I’m positive that the 12 feet has made travel safer than having 10 feet, but it’s rather academic.

I like my guns, I like to shoot**, but seriously, this is not a hill I’m going to die on (my particular gun-related hill I’ll die on is caliber size bans and registrations).  This should be a matter of taking a look at the number of crimes committed with high load magazines versus the cost of implementing new regulations.  We had the ban for a while, we should have easy enough evidence to compare with if the ban on high load magazines reduced gun deaths.  If it did, we should implement the ban.  If it did, but not by that much, we can argue over it.  If it didn’t, we shouldn’t pass this law, not because it’s some sort of major infringement on anyone’s rights, but because we should try to avoid stupid laws.

On the other hand, I do worry that this is a “we have to DO something bill”.  I worry that this bill is reactionary in nature, and if it gets passed, that’ll be the end of it.  Muddled into this guy’s very stupid initial dodge is that it is true that Loughner is more than likely mentally ill (though, I will bet dollars to donuts he will not be successful with an insanity plea) and I would like this as an opportunity to increase the mental health funds for people.  Additionally, it would have been nice if the good congressperson would have, instead of defending Saint Palin, mentioned something to the akin of “While no one voice caused this terrible tragedy, a few voices could have stopped it.  Imagine if, instead of a political climate where we feel comfortable comparing our political opponents to enemies of man and god, we instead had a political climate that encouraged reflection.  We cannot predict who will lash out violently and who won’t, but we do know that words have consequences.  For myself, and myself alone, I apologize for any times that I used inappropriately hyperbolic language and treat this as a wake-up call to be more reflective of my words”.  But, that would require him to be smart and empathic, so that means probably not a paid Republican.

* So everyone knows, in the US interstates are now at 12 feet.  Residential roads can vary in size.
** And more than just me- any number of people on this blog can tell you about what their families say when they aren’t in polite company.

Comment #21: Antigone  on  01/20  at  09:32 PM

Ismone, I have no interest in revoking anyone’s Constitutionally-guaranteed right to own a handgun or long gun (other than whatever restrictions are already in place).  At this point it would serve no purpose.

There are so many guns out there (most of which can, with a little care, still be viable for the next 50-200 years) and too much ammo (although ammo doesn’t keep as well as the guns themselves) for further restrictions to do any good.  That horse left the barn so long ago it just doesn’t matter.

The problem is with American society.  We’re weird when it comes to certain topics.  Guns are just a means for some scratch an itch.  Some of those itch-scratchers (not many — but one is enough) want to kill people, not hit targets — want to attack people, not just defend themselves against attackers.

Please enjoy the range.  Defend yourself to the best of your ability, with any tools you can legally own and use.  You and the people like you are not, and have never been, the problem.

I’m just frustrated by the whole situation with American looneys and guns…and utterly powerless to do anything about it…

Comment #22: MikeEss  on  01/20  at  09:34 PM

Oh, and this has been mentioned a couple times already, but I missed it so I thought I’d just reinforce it:

A lower capacity magazine would have helped in probably more than these two isolated incidents.  Yes, if you are trained, reloading is quick process.  Most people are not trained.  It takes me a few seconds to reload and I’ve been shooting for a long, long, time.

(Super aside, but I also find it really funny some of the analogies that I’ve internalized.  Such as using “Hill I’m willing to die on” in response to which political issues I’m willing to push for versus compromise on. That’s a military term that somehow has made it into political discourse.)

Comment #23: Antigone  on  01/20  at  09:37 PM

MikeEss,

You totally forgot the zombie apocalypse.  I mean, that’s really my major concern.  If it ends up being a robot apocalypse, I’m fucked though.

Comment #24: Ismone  on  01/20  at  09:44 PM

Darn those robots and their shiny metallic bodies!...

Comment #25: MikeEss  on  01/20  at  09:49 PM

@Blaustulz:

First of all, there is no such thing as a “clip”.  It’s a magazine.  “Clips” are things referred to in Hollywood movies by people who have never held, much less fired, a weapon.

Really? I’ve got stripper clips that say you’re wrong. The difference between a magazine and a clip is that one loads the rounds into a gun and the other loads the rounds into a magazine. There are also weapons that have fixed magazines so they can be fed clips directly. Those are generally military grade weapons, and old ones at that. If you’re going to be pedantic to show how silly the people you’re criticizing are, you might want to at least make sure you’re right.

Comment #26: JThompson  on  01/20  at  09:49 PM

There are a lot of stories of KKK raids being defeated or deterred by armed black households.  It’s not that guns are any good for taking on the government; you’re going to lose that one.  But for government-sanctioned (or ignored) right wing militias, armament is relevant.

That said, a 30 round clip is for killing a lot of people in a crowd.  That’s what it’s for.  So the wingnuts arguing for its importance are telling us what they’d like to see happen.

Comment #27: Punditus Maximus  on  01/20  at  09:49 PM

I know we’re all fruity-foo-foos here in California, but we’ve had a ban in high-capacity clips for some time now. And other than being slightly disappointing from an enthusiast standpoint (I like guns, sue me.), it hasn’t really emasculated anybody out here.

The limit for sale is 10 round capacity. And it isn’t like it’s too difficult to find more ‘standard’ sizes in the aftermarket. I can’t say if the ban is effective for anything, but it hardly seems like the worst thing in the world.

Comment #28: Santa Claustrophobia  on  01/20  at  09:53 PM

BlauStolz,

I’m not even going to touch the people you say are “liberal” murderers, although I do not believe that leftists are all peaceable.

But re: you being a police officer and therefore a good shot—well, no offense, but the only people who are good shots are those who practice regularly.  If you do, good on you, but most officers do not and as a result are lousy shots.  Which argues in favor of better budgets, but all the same.

And since you are actually a police officer, I seriously doubt that anyone cares whether you have a high capacity magazine.  Although I’m betting, having seen them, that you don’t carry concealed with one of those things loaded in your gun.  Just a guess.

Comment #29: Ismone  on  01/20  at  09:59 PM

“Lenin?  Stalin?  Mao?  Pol Pot?  Castro?  Ho Chi Minh?  I suppose it’s your contention that none of them murdered anyone?”

Democrats all. I bet they all voted for Jimmy Carter.

Comment #30: Mark  on  01/20  at  10:01 PM

I can’t believe my handgun doesn’t have a belt feed.  OPPRESSION!

Comment #31: Eric_RoM  on  01/20  at  10:06 PM

For what it’s worth, oversized magazines have several unintended properties, besides the comfortable feeling of extra mass when stashed in one’s pants.  To wit:

*  They’re harder to handle when reloading.
*  They’re easier for a bystander to grab hold of.
*  They’re more likely to fail.

According to the sheriff’s office, the combination of those three features is what ended the shooting, not just a simple pause to reload.  Loughner bobbled his second magazine, and a bystander took it away from him.  He still had time to load a *third* magazine, which suffered a mechanical failure.  His gun was apparently inoperable when the other bystanders jumped him and took it away.

If he’d been using standard magazines, he would have had to reload sooner, but would have been much less likely to fail when he tried.  The death toll could easily have been higher. 

All of which is a long way of saying - why are we wasting time arguing about magazines?  Modern weapons are designed to be easy to carry, easy to aim and easy to reload.  If someone is set on murder and has a working Glock, the system has failed, and arguing about magazines or aftermarket sights or whatever else isn’t even interesting.  The only question worth talking about is whether or not the primary failure is inevitable.

Comment #32: wrp  on  01/20  at  10:12 PM

BlauStolz, our new Latino police officer mascot , shows the same kind of obsession with words as the nutcase in question: must we REALLY use “magazine” over “clip”?  And “tactical” versus “speed reload”?  Dude, OCD much?

As to his contention that it doesn’t matter if you have to reload, perhaps BS missed the part where the civilians attacked the asshole WHEN he was reloading.  No reload, no window for prevention.

Waitaminit: “BlauStolz”??  That doesn’t sould Latino, but it does sound like BS.

Comment #33: Eric_RoM  on  01/20  at  10:14 PM

...And we no longer have to wonder whether the new dude is a troll. This has been Pandagon Bingo, good night everybody!

Comment #34: Well, what?  on  01/20  at  10:24 PM

wasn’t it obvious when in like his second post he said he wouldn’t even know how to police gun sales using a bunch of arguments taken from marijuana enthusiasts and then went on to say he’s a cop. What does he know how to police? Apparently the use of gun words.

Comment #35: pharmakos  on  01/20  at  10:30 PM

wrp,

Reports suggest the other two magazines were 15-round, not 30.

BlauStolz,

So what if police officers like guns?  So do a lot of extremists who aren’t police officers, and who do use racist arguments to advocate for their gun ownership.

Re: the confederate flag, if you don’t think it is racist to display a symbol of a revolt that started because some white people wanted to continue owning black people, well, okay.  But you have to be pretty damn clueless.  Even if you were descended from slaves, and not offended by the confederate flag, it doesn’t mean that other people don’t get to call it racist.

Comment #36: Ismone  on  01/20  at  10:31 PM

R.T. does have a point. Given the large number of gun owners, coupled with the presumably bell-curved distribution of cock-size*, it can’t ALL be inadequacy. And anyway, if I were in the business of overcompensation, I don’t think a killing instrument would be my preferred pick.  Large and varied sex toy collection plus a world class cooking ability would seem a far better bet**.

*Actually, is that the case? I just spouted that out. Maybe it is bi (tri?) modal, like lawyer salaries.

Comment #37: John Joel Glanton  on  01/20  at  10:35 PM

@Antigone, you pretty much just stole my whole position.  The utterly callous position most of the fellow posters are taking on guns as a whole is getting hypocritical because the fundamental arguments they are making are more so about our social order than the guns themselves.  Not everybody who appreciates gun ownership is a frothing mad asshole from the NRA.  Just like not all liberals (including myself) are socialists (though I am, philosophically, I like to vote in primaries too much).  The argument surrounding the larger than 10 magazine is knee-jerk and simplistic.  It is a simple way to feed the base without actually looking at the systemic problems we have surrounding our mental health, social order, and general welfare.

For the record, I don’t see a major difference between 15 shots fired or 30 in this respect.  The fact that people were willing to tackle him while he struggled to reload is wonderful but the odds of him reloading correctly are still statistically in his favor if we use the commonly known reload speed numbers.  I listened to his interview and I agree his whole “I stand against this because you brought it up!” argument is pathetic but he could just have easily made an argument about not infringing upon personal rights involving the second amendment.

PS: As a pet peeve, technically there is a very real and distinctive difference between clips and magazines.  A clip latches the cartridge to it in some way and is fed into the weapon usually exposed.  Much of the Russian-designed stuff uses them.  Magazines are wholly-contained vessels for holding cartridges.  Two totally different devices for the same purpose and to my knowledge, anybody who has been around guns for some length of time doesn’t use it interchangeably.

Comment #38: Xeranar  on  01/20  at  11:01 PM

Respond, by number, to BlauStolz

1) Cite please.  I’d like to see where you got “the majority of liberals have never handled a firearm”. 

2) I know exactly the same number of people who are liberal and like guns as I know women and non-whites who like guns.  So, competing anecdata means I at least win number one.  To non-anecdata points, please, visit the gun forums, or again, go to gun shows.  If you couldn’t figure out from my handle (don’t feel too bad, lots of people don’t seem to), I’m a woman.  I know plenty of women who like firearms.  Being a women does not mean you aren’t sexist.  Women in a field does not mean that the culture isn’t sexist (much like law enforcement, to that point).  This is feminist blog 101 stuff, though, and kind of secondary to the point.

3) I am sorry for implying a conflation between “Hispanic” and “Mexican”.  To clarify, I meant to say that if you are Hispanic, and you look significantly non-white, they aren’t going to tell you up front, and then went on to points to demonstrate the racism of people I am familiar with.  If you think “Mexico is overtaking our country” and that the Confederate flag is a totally neutral historical symbol, you’re pretty fucking racist. 

4)http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&safe=off&biw=1680&bih=925&q=firearm+clips&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=5973064609896806338&ei=QOg4TYvQBoWdlgfC3vHUBg&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CJ4BEPMCMAc#

Clip is an acceptable term for magazine.  If you wanted to be pedantic, should have went after “guns” instead of “firearms”.

To the points you addressed to Felaguld, I invite you to take a look at the text of the bill to which I linked.

I’m giving you all of one more post before I join the chorus of “troll”.  I don’t, yet, think you are a troll- just completely unfamiliar with this community.

Comment #39: Antigone  on  01/20  at  11:03 PM

“And for whoever asked about it—Blauer Stolz means “blue pride”.”

...awesome.  I didn’t know St0rmFr0nt accepted Hispanics.  Good to know…

Comment #40: MikeEss  on  01/20  at  11:05 PM

This is all bullshit.  Guns are insanely bad things and should be outlawed for every fucking person on the face of the motherfucking planet.  Jerking off in public gets you arrested (that’s what I hear, anyway) but carrying a fucking firearm in public doesn’t.  We’re fucked in the fucking brains.  God never existed, but even if it had, it would have died of its pity for us long before now.

If you’re comfortable saying, “There’s nothing wrong with owning a gun, but…” then fuck off and die.

Comment #41: entrails  on  01/20  at  11:15 PM

Please ignore the gun nut troll.  There’s no amount of blasting shit that will ever make him secure with his manhood, so I would suggest ignoring him is the only thing to do.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/20  at  11:20 PM

It’s funny to me that it’s routine mansplainers who are the first to say that gun nuttery has no relationship to anxious masculinity.  Or who pretend that simply owning guns is the same thing as frothing at the mouth freakouts at even mild suggestions for gun control.

Comment #43: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/20  at  11:22 PM

Wow, I thought entrails was satire, but his/her website seems to be legitimate.  Fucked up, dude.

Comment #44: Antigone  on  01/20  at  11:27 PM

Gee, blauStolz. I know a fair number of cops but I don’t actually know any who carry a 30-round magazine around with them, on duty or off. In fact, I think the majority of them carry Glock 17 or 22 pistols, which hold 16 rounds. You must be pretty special.

Comment #45: katydid  on  01/20  at  11:27 PM

In response to your responses:

1. Insofar as your carrying a weapon is directly related to your police duty, it falls under the purview of your professional responsibilities and is thus not at issue here.

2. Again, insofar as your possession of a weapon is directly related to your police duty, it’s not at issue here. One hopes that you are wise enough to keep said weapon securely locked away.

3. I am not saying that YOU are ten times more likely to shoot the wrong person. I am saying that it’s quite well-documented that a handgun in the house is ten times more likely to result in the death of a family member than an intruder. This is an average over a large number of cases. Note that “death of a family member” includes suicide by firearms, which is regrettably common among law-enforcement types, and certainly in no way due to the unresolvable tension between being a human and being a front-line enforcer of a corrupt, soulless, violent corporate patriarchy.

4. For the most part, the high-capacity magazine thing is kind of a straw man; once we’ve accepted that citizens have a right to carry firearms in public, anything else is window-dressing. That said, it’s hard not to read it as overcompensation.

5. Whether the tens of millions of Americans who want social democracy instead of having militaristic corporatism shoved down our throats are a majority or minority is really beside the point I was making, which is that those tens of millions of people are citizens, who have a right to organize and promote their political beliefs without being constantly threatened by a small lunatic fringe of heavily-armed troglodytes. Please note that I am not implicitly calling you the same: as far as I know, you’ve never threatened anyone with your firearm. Such troglodytes would still resist modernity with all the passion their tiny little lizard brains could muster, but in the absence of widespread firearms fetishism they would be left with mostly bluster, thus granting the rest of us, liberal, conservative and squishy moderate alike, the modicum of safety we all deserve as citizens.

6. I notice that nobody on your “leftist” list was active after about 1976 or so. This is because leftists figured out that violence was not only counterproductive but morally indefensible. Lists of politically-motivated gun violence crimes are widely available on the internet; even a cursory reading shows that all of the killers of the last three decades—and they are legion—are right-wing loons. Loughner is more a garden-variety narcissist than a committed right-winger, but his choice of targets did not arise from a vacuum.

7. You may not need one, but even the most half-assed gen psych student could show you how the overwhelming majority of teabaggers and gun nuts have some serious projection issues.

Comment #46: felagund  on  01/20  at  11:29 PM

In fairness, I never said gun nuttery had nothing to do with masculinity. It may very well. I haven’t the foggiest idea though. Don’t know how I could.

Comment #47: John Joel Glanton  on  01/20  at  11:31 PM

Apparently you find it acceptable to use insulting foul language with strangers, which I don’t personally find acceptable.  That’s not something I do.  And I think it speaks to the great cultural divide between you and me—namely, I have good manners, and you lack them.

Once again, I am reinforced in my reasons for having utter contempt for Liberals (with a capital L).

Awesome

I bet he turns up as a professor of economics and lectures everyone about the austrian school next week.

Comment #48: pharmakos  on  01/20  at  11:44 PM

BlauStolz-

1) I don’t consider words like “fuck” to be foul.  So yeah, that’s the cultural divide.  I do consider it to be foul to call Mexico “a cesspool”.

2) Wow.  You are so new to the internet it’s almost frightening.  Nice to be insulting to the community, though.  You object to “fucking” but think it’s totally okay to go to the online equivelent of a rec room and tell us all we’re wasting our time.

3)  Anecdotal is not a citation.  How many people do you know who are liberal, period?

4)  I don’t know a damn thing about your co-workers.  Maybe your police department is way different than the Border Patrol (father, uncle grandfather), Minnesota State patrol (plethra of in-laws, godfather), North Dakota State Patrol (friends of the family) and other city and state patrols across the United States.  I really, highly doubt.  My guess is you probably think that anything less than “cross burning on a front lawn” isn’t racist.  But I do know that gun culture is perniciously sexist, and I pointed to examples.  It is clear you don’t find them compelling, but that speaks more to your worldview than the facts on the ground.

5) I know.  Thus where I said you would have better chance at being accurately pedantic.

Seriously, what the fuck is putting the capital “L” for liberals?  Anyway, you come on this site to teach us poor, ignorant liberals about How The World Works, and then get all butthurt and leave because you a) don’t know the culture, b) don’t know the parlance and c) don’t know what you’re talking about.  People, let me demonstrate the greatest example of “Mansplaining” ever.

Comment #49: Antigone  on  01/20  at  11:45 PM

Given the large number of gun owners, coupled with the presumably bell-curved distribution of cock-size*, it can’t ALL be inadequacy.

You are assuming they are independent variables.  Mistake.

And anyway, if I were in the business of overcompensation, I don’t think a killing instrument would be my preferred pick.  Large and varied sex toy collection plus a world class cooking ability would seem a far better bet**.

Yes, but that would be a sane and rational means of compensation. Trying to deal with insecurity and anxiety through phallic substitutes is another matter entirely.

Comment #50: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/20  at  11:46 PM

Oh, and I’m going with “Blauer Stolz” is a troll.  A fucking troll, to be honest.  And I was always taught that it is polite to be honest.

Comment #51: Antigone  on  01/20  at  11:48 PM

I haven’t stopped laughing yet over the “liberals are skeered to touch guns” bit.  I mean, wow, way to pick the worst possible liberal blog on which to make that accusation.

Comment #52: bomberE  on  01/21  at  12:07 AM

The clip/magazine/cock-size issue can easily be resolved with a second gun.  While I think a 30-round capacity is ridiculous, the asshole could just have a second or third pistol handy and have gone to town in a manner just as deadly without having to worry about pesky reloading.

We can all play Monday Morning Shooting Instructor until my representative dies of old age after fully recovering from her injuries, but the problem isn’t going to go away with better mental health care, it isn’t going to go away with a more civil social climate, it isn’t going to go away with the most strict gun control laws possible, and it isn’t going to go away with better security.  Though all of those things would definitely help.  It’s only going to go away when people who want to murder somehow don’t want to do that anymore.

Which doesn’t mean that some sane steps to make mass murder less easy aren’t worthwhile.

Comment #53: 3letterjon  on  01/21  at  12:11 AM

Gee, blauStolz. I know a fair number of cops but I don’t actually know any who carry a 30-round magazine around with them, on duty or off. In fact, I think the majority of them carry Glock 17 or 22 pistols, which hold 16 rounds. You must be pretty special.

It should be noted that glock magazines are interchangeable in the gun of the same caliber.

But it would be absurd for a cop to routinely carry a glock with a 30rnd magazine.

Here’s a glock 18 which the 30rnd mag was made for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsXMb0GtS44

NOT PRACTICAL FOR REGULAR CARRY

Comment #54: R.T.  on  01/21  at  12:15 AM

If there is one thing that Blauer gets right, it is law enforcement’s general distaste for the term “clip.” When applying for a firearms permit in a state that had rather strict laws about that, we were told never to use the word “clip” when referring to a magazine when talking to police officers about our applications.

Apparently you find it acceptable to use insulting foul language with strangers, which I don’t personally find acceptable.

Well then you need to grow up and stop being such a hyper-sensitive child when walking in on a gathering place of a bunch of strangers.

Comment #55: Tyro  on  01/21  at  12:20 AM

I’m a 59-year-old male who’s occasionally owned a pistol, though only when I’ve lived relatively isolated in the countryside, but never in a city, including New Orleans, Portland, Austin and D.C.  I’ve only fired one while receiving certified firearm instruction.  I’ve found them reassuring at times.  I have no love or fetish for them, only an appreciation of their appropriate potential functionality, primarily and foremost as a deterrent.  I’ve loved my canopeners far more than I could ever love any gun, no matter what one might do for me.  Not coincidentally, my canopener can’t kill, only nourish.

But I do think I understand at least partly why certain males do fetishize them, think about them almost all of the time at least in the back of their minds, and crave them as if they were a drug.  It’s because they’re afraid that certain unknown other males are as fiercely and devastatingly insecure and fearful as they themselves secretly are (secretly even from themselves), insecure and fearful to the point of personality disorder, and insecure and fearful even to the point that they can’t let a non-gun-nut conversation ensue without having to pretend-shoot everybody involved in the conversation with their little word-bullets (and of course they can endlessly reload in a comments section, at least until the blog sheriff intervenes).

Having worked on and in men’s anger management groups for years on and off, it became pretty clear how horrified and frightened big strong men were to find themselves (usually) forced to be in a room full of other men (usually) forced to participate in anger management counseling, often court-ordered.  The fear was thick and dripping with dread, and the communication within the groups was completely constipated by not wanting to say the “wrong” thing in front of the other men.

So that’s my thesis, men who worship guns do so because they are afraid of other men who worship guns, for the above-described reason.  Of course, any woman who wants to carry, more power to her; her whole world is full of certain unknown males.

Comment #56: News Nag  on  01/21  at  12:29 AM

Ismone:  According to the FBI reports, he had at least two extended magazines, and failed to load one of them.  He had two *more* standard magazines in his pockets when they brought him in.  I haven’t been able to verify what he had in the gun at the end (the one with the bad spring), but a spring failure like that would be very strange in a standard magazine.

Mostly, I’m just trying to get away from obsessing over aftermarket modifications, when (like a lot of custom auto parts) they’re more about show than effectiveness. 

Honestly, there are days when I think that the most effective form of gun control might be market-based.  For example, consider the possibilities of Big Dick(tm) brand ammunition.  You could cast each bullet in the shape of a penis, and put the following ad in every magazine that sells space to the NRA: A burly man is standing in front of a rural house, foot on a tree stump, .50 Desert Eagle(tm) in front of his crotch, appreciative family behind him.  Tag line: “I keep my family safe with my Big Dick(tm).”  Sell ‘em cheap.

Then, you make ‘em using primers from the crappiest Warsaw Pact surplus stocks you can find. 

That should be good for a few points off the annual death-by-gun rate right there.  The fact that the rest of us get to snicker at the guys in oversized vehicles with 9mm Big Dicks(tm) would be pure coincidence.

Comment #57: wrp  on  01/21  at  01:04 AM

I haven’t stopped laughing yet over the “liberals are skeered to touch guns” bit.  I mean, wow, way to pick the worst possible liberal blog on which to make that accusation.

It’s very amusing.  I’m not an American; I think American gun policy is insane; and I’m one of the most vocal critics.  However, I’ve hunted as a kid, shooting geese and rabbits.  Rifles - meh.

Comment #58: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/21  at  01:09 AM

Blaustolz:

“Foul language” is less a matter of form than meaning around here. For the most part, it’s not how you say it, it’s what you mean when you say it. After all, sometimes you just gotta say “what the fuck”.

Anyway, the simple fact is that there aren’t many legitimate uses for large-capacity magazines, and your particular line of work is one of the few. Also, I grew up with a cop for a dad, and he never kept his gun at home. Just sayin.

Comment #59: BrianX  on  01/21  at  01:13 AM

A few things:

1) It is definitely true that the underlying issue is health care, specifically mental health care.  Those who knew Jared Loughner knew that he was unwell.  A society in which mental health care is common and commonly used would be a society that is far more likely to prevent Loughner’s rampage.

2) I agree that the ban on large magazines is largely symbolic.  But it’s important as a symbol to make clear that the NRA is in favor of people shooting large numbers of innocents in a crowd.  Even if we lose, that’s the sort of truth that gets people thinking.

3) As I’ve grown older, I’ve grown more and more baffled and frightened by the spectacle of beat cops and security guards carrying firearms.  Every time a firefight comes up, it gets clear very quickly that their training is in conflict management and subduing suspects, and not in shooting things or people.  We as a society need to have a conversation about who we issue firearms to and what we expect them to do with them.

Comment #60: Punditus Maximus  on  01/21  at  01:14 AM

Oh, and Loughner is quite definitely in line with the quasi-libertarian right-wing Paultard cluster of beliefs. Wouldn’t be surprised if he pulls some Posse Comitatus-derived shit in the courtroom either. Hate to say it, Blau, but in all likelihood, he’s not quite as crazy as you want to think he is.

Comment #61: BrianX  on  01/21  at  01:25 AM

Once again, I am reinforced in my reasons for having utter contempt for Liberals (with a capital L).

Somehow, I don’t think you came here for any other purpose, in spite of your “hey, I’m just a guy using the internet” routine.

I mean, seriously?  You’ve never before encountered the term “troll” on the internet?  In that case, I’m sure you’ll be happy to hear that they have the internet on computers now, too.  What will they think of next?

Comment #62: Captain Bathrobe  on  01/21  at  01:38 AM

I really believe that some who strongly defend gun “rights” against any regulation do so in part because of an unconscious belief that there must be a certain quota of violent deaths in society in order to keep us “tough” and prevent us from getting too civilized. In this schema, Christina Green’s death was a sacrifice to this culture of toughness [and yes, it is like human sacrifice as the Aztecs used to do, only it is indirect, unorganized and unacknowledged]. These people are not really interested in objectively discussing the pros and cons of which laws would lead to the least number of deaths, regardless of what they may claim. Their real belief is that without the persistent threat of violent death in society [as enforced by X significant number of actual gunshot deaths], we would all get too comfortable and feminized, and eventually all become automatonic slaves to the nanny state, ala Brave New World.

Comment #63: TonyWu  on  01/21  at  02:00 AM

this is your sham political system….

CLOBBERING TIME


dawkins - got you…


who’s the WINGNUT?

http://richarddawkins.net/videos/579240-the-truth-about-the-lunatic-religious-right-in-america?page=1

THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION - JAN 1, 2011

OMENS OF DEATH:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/302169


http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/7776949-5000-black-birds-fell-from-sky-due-to-flu

 

http://starseedshaman.info/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/redwing.jpg

 

the end of atheism - only the blind and deaf can deny it…


an example and warning of the fate of those who try to divide people….


http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1176-serves-em-right.html


At least we’re on the same page…

Serves Em Right, eh, Randi….


Just for you, little traitors…

 

WHAT IS *WRONG* WITH HENRY?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YgdmtkTwO8&feature=related

 

 


we’re this far from nuking all of you….

 


the X-MAS vacuum cleaner for the atheists….


shermer, randi, myers, pz, dawkins, harris

http://thecoolgadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/henry-desktop-vacuum1.jpg


______________________________________

 

 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz4R0GHfM-Y&

why does everyone always want to PUNCH you, shermer?

______________________________

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxrWz9XVvls&


take your meds, you little fckers…


http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/image/composition/4006595/view/1/producttypecolor/1/type/png/width/378/height/378/e-mc2_design.png

 

now we are going to bury you…


And the lesson from all of this? DOUBLE!
____________________________


What do you want, you little ****ers?

more of these idiots


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4C5yzFmC80

 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prizes_for_evidence_of_the_paranormal

HOW N WON ALL THE PARANORMAL PRIZES!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostradamus


pz myers does not exist…

http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/543672-inhertitance-of-acquired-behaviour-adaptions-and-brain-gene-expression-in-chickens

atheists, we’re gonna cut off your heads…

THE HIGH PRICE OF REVOLUTION

http://www.youtube.com/user/xviolatex?feature=mhum

Comment #64: peterjones99  on  01/21  at  02:03 AM

@71, nothing being discussed here would affect that.

Comment #65: Punditus Maximus  on  01/21  at  02:15 AM

As I’ve grown older, I’ve grown more and more baffled and frightened by the spectacle of beat cops and security guards carrying firearms.  Every time a firefight comes up, it gets clear very quickly that their training is in conflict management and subduing suspects, and not in shooting things or people.  We as a society need to have a conversation about who we issue firearms to and what we expect them to do with them

Mostly I see that their training ought to be in conflict resolution, and isn’t.  I’ve known too many people killed by cops.

Comment #66: Crissa  on  01/21  at  02:19 AM

Dear God, Tony Wu, spare me the armchair fucking psychology.

Comment #67: Ismone  on  01/21  at  02:55 AM

Comment #74: Punditus Maximus

Google Malcolm X Gun

He’s got a high capacity rifle with two magazines stuck together to make for a quick reload. That image is in the forefront of my mind whenever I think oppressed groups arming themselves against oppressors.

I oppose capacity restrictions which disarms non-privileged groups in comparison to the public police and private mercenary forces like Blackwater/Xe the privileged have access to. Banning a force multiplier like 30+ magazines for private individuals is disarmament compared to the equipment police and mercenaries can use.

Comment #68: R.T.  on  01/21  at  03:20 AM

Franks says that requiring a limit on magazine sizes like this is like trying to stop drunk driving by limiting the size of fuel tanks.

Somebody needs to watch more Mythbusters.  The biggest danger in car crashes is not that the car will explode - which happens but is rare - but that the for present when you have that much mass at that much speed/acceleration can do a hell of a lot of damage.

Which is why we have speed limits.  It isn’t just to prevent crashes - for even with the defensive driving rules taught in driver’s ed, most freeway speed limits are set way too high to allow for reaction times to usually matter all that much.  Quite often the speed limit is simply meant to decrease the amount of damage, and therefore loss of life, in the event of a crash.  Which is why we not only have speed limits but also special speed limits for semis which cause much more damage than the average sedan, owing to their much larger mass.  I’m guessing that there are also all kinds of manufacturing requirements for semis that don’t apply to sedans.  Not to mention the special training required to be able to legally drive one.

So not only is Franks full of shit bc his analogy makes no sense, but the better analogy actually disproves his argument and shows that when the issue is something other than guns, we are pretty accepting of dictating to manufacturers/consumers what they can and cannot do.

Comment #69: jennygadget  on  01/21  at  04:50 AM

I don’t think mercenaries should have them, either.

Comment #70: Crissa  on  01/21  at  05:26 AM

I would like to know what the Republicans’ plan for health care is as it involves mental health care, since they are all bleating about the “mentally ill” owning guns.  As far as know, in order to be on a ban list for firearms, you need to be diagnosed by a mental health professional.  That assumes you have the wherewith all to get to a mental health professional and the insurance coverage to pay for it.  Since most insurance only covers a small number of visits (I’ve been on three different insurance programs with three different companies, one of which was Medicaid, over the past four years), which is usually somewhere around ten.  After that, you’re on your own, unless you get committed, which is pretty rare unless you are tacitly a danger to yourself or others and have already proven that.

So how are the Republicans going to fund insurance/health care so that there is more mental health care so that people that are feeling “off” or that they need to talk to someone won’t be scared to death to, firstly, GO to a professional, since that shit becomes a huge RED FLAG if you try to get insurance anywhere else in the future.  My brother is diagnosed bipolar, and he can’t ever leave the insurance he is on now or he will be either denied or rated out of the ability to pay.  Secondly, how are they going to fund insurance so that one can go for as long as the professional treating you thinks you need to go? 

Don’t bleat around about how the mentally ill shouldn’t have guns if you have no system set up in which to identify people as such and then care for them properly.  Until then, we need to go to reactive rather than proactive measures when it comes to saving lives, and one of them is a limit on the number of bullets one can use to kill other people.

Comment #71: speedbudget  on  01/21  at  10:15 AM

“Don’t bleat around about how the mentally ill shouldn’t have guns if you have no system set up in which to identify people as such and then care for them properly.”

...that’s just normal for conservatives.  These are the same people who believe they are “pro-life” for considering an embryo a full human being, but love the death penalty, love warfare, hate welfare and Social Security, and believe healthcare should only be available for those who can afford to pay top-dollar for it.

No system to identify and care for people with mental health problems?  That’s a feature, not a bug…

Comment #72: MikeEss  on  01/21  at  10:30 AM

I don’t think mercenaries should have them, either.

I think there should be an exception for those who broke out of a military stockade, and are now hiding out in LA’s underworld.

Comment #73: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/21  at  10:59 AM

One thing he might be broken-clock right on is that it’s really stupid to enact national legislation based on single incidents of violence, no matter how much press it gets.  Anecdata and all that.  (Though the policy would probably still be correct based on total data, it just reinforces poor reasoning habits among the voting populace, which makes it that much harder to combat dumbness)

Comment #74: R. P. M.  on  01/21  at  11:01 AM

@speedbudget: In some places even if you get committed you can still be sent a bill for it when they decide to let you out. The pricing I’ve seen was comparable to a hospital stay. (Around $800-1000 a day, and you aren’t getting out before the three days is up.) The mental illness restriction also varies by state. Mine didn’t have one at all the last time I checked. You basically take 20 bucks to the courthouse and if you don’t have any felonies or multiple domestic violence arrests, they consider you responsible enough to carry a loaded gun in public.

I’ve all but given up on any sensible mental health or weapons policy coming from any kind of tragedy. This is the country that decided the correct response to things like Columbine was to ban trenchcoats and harass kids for playing Dungeons and Dragons or listening to Marilyn Manson. We just don’t do sensible here. We either do the wrong thing and completely overreact or fervently deny there’s a problem at all. Sometimes we manage to multitask and do both.

Comment #75: JThompson  on  01/21  at  11:35 AM

3) My citation would be anecdotal and experiential—I’ve been around for a long time and have met many, many people.  I have yet to meet a Liberal who owns a firearm, or knows what they’re talking about regarding them.

Don’t get out much, do you?  Husband and I are both liberals and we own firearms.  Oh, wait, you meant Liberals, not liberals.  Got it.

P.S.  You’re a moron.  And a troll.

Comment #76: adobedragon  on  01/21  at  02:43 PM

In my state, registration of firearms, much less magazines, is not required, so how would anyone even know I possessed them?  Or sold them privately or gave them away?  Lots of questions.

Comment #5: BlauStolz

Out of curiosity, and in keeping with the theme of the thread, could you answer a few questions?

Do you own a vehicle?
How many?
How many are registered?
Are you licensed to use the vehicles?
Do you need to be licensed on vehicles of different types? (IE. boat, motorcycle, RV, commercial vehicle)
Are your vehicles designed to kill?
How does anyone know how many vehicles you possess?
How would anyone know if you gave them away or sold them privately?
Why is vehicle possession more regulated than gun ownership?
Why are vehicles and their usage a much larger portion of government enforcement?  (IE. traffic control, speed traps, drunk driving enforcement)
Why does the government regualte a tool utilized by a majority of Americans for their day to day living and economic well being than a tool designed to kill?

Comment #77: cynickal  on  01/21  at  03:08 PM

never handled firearms, don’t like them (probably instinctively and irrationally, for some reason)

So, I know this was originally posted by the troll, but I’m not really responding directly to him.  I’m just kind of shocked by the idea that not liking firearms is somehow irrational.  Not liking things designed to kill and maim people seems entirely rational.  Accepting the need for them because other people are violent dickheads is also perfectly rational.  But I can’t see anybody saying they ‘like’ guillotines, nooses, anti-personnel land mines, or nuclear bombs.  Yet people will say they like firearms.  I don’t get it.

Comment #78: libdevil  on  01/21  at  03:24 PM

Niether Blau Stolz nor any other off-duty police officer had better be carrying a gun of any sort at a public airport, federal, state, county or city because they are under the control of federal regulations, whether they are federal property or not.  And miltary installation commanders generally being okay with it?  No, I don’t think so (on-duty is less a problem, but would still require some serious clearance ahead of time unless responding to a call for outside help).  I call bullshit and troll on him at 32.

Comment #79: helen w. h.  on  01/21  at  04:23 PM

Also, my immediate family is 4 liberals, 2 former military, all have used firearms.  My anacdata is just as good as BS’s.

Comment #80: helen w. h.  on  01/21  at  04:49 PM

libdevil-

I suppose the “irrational” part is a question of “Why do you dislike them?”  I’ve had a couple friends that had feelings very similar to yours- that they were just tools of death and their associated images of them were of the military.  But, after they shot a couple times, they figured out exactly what enjoyed about them.  It’s akin to running- I have no idea why people like it.  I associate running with pain in my chest, legs, and thighs and blinking black spots on the corner of my eyes.  Other people get a real zen experience.  For me, having the type of control over my limbs and the controlled explosion is my zen.

I probably couldn’t shoot another person if my life depended on it.  But soda cans need to die. smile

Comment #81: Antigone  on  01/21  at  05:13 PM

Milk jugs, filled with colored water to demonstrate to the kiddies why guns were not toys was our most memorable experience(my daughter still mentions shooting that little 22/410 the first time every once in a while).

Comment #82: helen w. h.  on  01/21  at  05:43 PM

I like Chris Rock’s suggestion—bullet control.  Each handgun bullet costs $5,000.  If you think you need a handgun bullet to kill somebody, you have to save up for it.

Comment #83: blondie  on  01/21  at  06:37 PM

I don’t like guns.  My father was shot in the back.  By a policeman.

I don’t buy most excuses about guns.

Comment #84: Crissa  on  01/21  at  10:45 PM

I’ve had a couple friends that had feelings very similar to yours- that they were just tools of death and their associated images of them were of the military.  But, after they shot a couple times, they figured out exactly what enjoyed about them.

When I tried shooting I figured out part of what I didn’t like about handguns; the weird-ass mindset I got into. Knowing that you could literally turn around and kill anyone in the room with you, if the fancy struck you, that you could effortlessly murder someone… that creeped me right the fuck out. I don’t want to be able to easily kill people (hurt, yes, sometimes, and definitely I want to be able to stop someone, but not destroy them…) And, in the reverse case, if someone wants to kill me I want the bastard to have to put a lot of effort in and really get his hands dirty. I don’t want to be murdered dispassionately and distantly from across the room. I want it to be terribly unpleasant for him as well as me. :p

Comment #85: Bagelsan  on  01/22  at  05:14 AM

I’m a redneck liberal.  I used to go out in the back end of the farm and shoot of a shotgun with my dad and brother.  We also went to a private gun range in Bumblefuck, Maryland, and shoot muzzle loaders, the occasional 30.06, various hand guns, and many rifles.  I generally did target shooting with a .22 rifle to keep my shooting decent.  I have gone out to the oil mud fields in Galveston with many handguns and even a military rifle that a friend of a friend had gotten their hands on and shot the hell out of that (FUUUUUUUUUUUUUN).  I still think there needs to be better control of guns.

And I’m guessing BlauStolz is a takeoff of the same guys who used to troll here after every Tazer post Amanda or Jesse would put up.

Comment #86: speedbudget  on  01/22  at  09:43 AM

Those guns the civil rights guys had weren’t handguns but high-powered rifles designed to be able to kill at a distance, with accuracy, and efficiently.  Even the Thompson submachine gun one preacher had at his bed was a fairly-accurate shot if used in the semi-automatic setting.  Handguns, on the other hand, are designed to be easy to conceal so the users get the element of surprise. 

For self-defense purposes, I’d rather have a rifle than a handgun.  But if anyone wants me dead, chances are that I’ll be dead. 

Here are my proposed gun control laws:
1. Only women can carry handguns.
2. Convicted felons caught with guns will be chemically castrated along with the other penalties.
3. Gun-users must have a license, renewable only every four years.
4. All bullet casings will have individual serial numbers.
5. Aside from military and law-enforcement users, clips shall have no more than eight or ten bullets.

Not a fucking chance of any of that, but it would be a start.

Comment #87: 3letterjon  on  01/22  at  12:50 PM

1. Only women can carry handguns.

Women aren’t the only group who experience higher violent crime.

2. Convicted felons caught with guns will be chemically castrated along with the other penalties.

You’re a monster.

3. Gun-users must have a license, renewable only every four years.

In theory I’d can support that but I can see it easily abused by privileged groups to make sure only the “right” people can have guns.

4. All bullet casings will have individual serial numbers.

There’s an idea I support called micro-stamping where a gun’s firing pin stamps a unique number on every bullet casing it fires.

5. Aside from military and law-enforcement users, clips shall have no more than eight or ten bullets.

Maybe you haven’t noticed but the police aren’t the friends of anyone but older white, cis, moneyed, heterosexuals, and they’re apt to kill people who don’t belong to that group. Same with the military, they only serve the interests of that privileged group.

Oppressed groups should not be made even more vulnerable by limiting their access to firepower.

Comment #88: R.T.  on  01/22  at  03:58 PM

5. Aside from military and law-enforcement users, clips shall have no more than eight or ten bullets.

Maybe you haven’t noticed but the police aren’t the friends of anyone but older white, cis, moneyed, heterosexuals, and they’re apt to kill people who don’t belong to that group. Same with the military, they only serve the interests of that privileged group.

Oppressed groups should not be made even more vulnerable by limiting their access to firepower.

You keep saying that, but I’m not clear what you’re proposing. Are you interested in giant clips because you are planning on fighting off an entire police department without reloading? What the hell kind of situation do you have in mind where 15 extra bullets is going to save you from oppression? How is it making you vulnerable to get only 15 bullets at a time? (Do you… uh… live in an isolated cabin somewhere full of weaponry and refuse to take the census…? :p)

Oppressed groups absolutely should be limited in their access to firepower, just like anyone else. You’re not going to stop oppression just by toting a massive gun around all day, seriously. And more cynically, in this world do you think that if you get 30 bullets someone else won’t still have 30-bullet-clips for each of their half dozen bodyguards? If you’re oppressed you’re not going to win the arms race by buying more and more bullets.

Comment #89: Bagelsan  on  01/22  at  05:02 PM

I’d argue that people have a human right (outside of the constitution, like the right to have food and water) to have the ability to kill people, and being able to posses a proper weapon for the job is included in that right.

Well frankly, RT, you’ve got a really hinky view of what constitutes a “human right”.  For a slightly more universal view of what might consitute a human right, could I direct you perhaps to the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights and the International Convention on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights?  The latter, for example, does include a right to food (and water, by implication). 

Nowhere in any document that purports to contain a list of “human rights”, whether that be a regional document, a UN document, or a national convention, does there exist either a right to bear arms, except the US Constitution, or the right to have the ability to kill people.

Comment #90: Katherine  on  01/22  at  05:29 PM

MikeEss:

For another analogy on the question of whether there are any mental health initiatives to back up the idea that crazy people shouldn’t be able to buy handguns, consider that it’s been reported that some states with parental-notification or parental-consent laws for minors needing abortions have not set up any procedures for the constitutionally-required judicial-bypass process, and do not require any judge to hear such requests…

Comment #91: paul  on  01/22  at  05:44 PM

R.T.,

Chemical castration as monstrous?  As in many cases, compared to what?  Is it worse than a convicted felon—someone who shouldn’t have a gun according to the laws of about 50 states and DC—getting a gun and carrying it around?  I think taking the testosterone from idiots who can’t control themselves is a good idea and the appropriate punishment and the most likely to have the effect of making them sure they don’t carry weapons around.

Is it more monstrous than shooting someone?  If they can’t handle their penis substitute, maybe they should be disarmed.

As for women not being the only ones who experience violent crime, I get that.  But I think the best thing to combat the gun-fetishist community is to change those activities that make those men into gun fetishists.  It’s wrong and sexist (and I know my proposals have no chance anyway so I could turn the hyperbole up to eleven) but it’s also got that sense of truth to it: the men who want to carry a pistol are the same kind of men who hang a fake scrotum on their trucks and grab their junk all the time.  They see their guns as another part of their macho makeup, just as much as their penis, balls, and their swagger.  Turning handguns into feminine objects would piss them off and also be a strategy that uses but reinforces their cultural stereotypes, but since I’m already shooting from the rhetorical hip I just don’t really care all that much about the collateral damage from my misfires.

Comment #92: 3letterjon  on  01/22  at  05:51 PM

You keep saying that, but I’m not clear what you’re proposing. Are you interested in giant clips because you are planning on fighting off an entire police department without reloading? What the hell kind of situation do you have in mind where 15 extra bullets is going to save you from oppression? How is it making you vulnerable to get only 15 bullets at a time?

Not just police departments, but militia types and bands civilian right-wingers out to destroy their perceived enemies.

A magazine in an integral part of a weapon system and size is a matter balance between efficiency and handiness. For a carbine-type assault weapon 30ish is a good size because it’s large enough to provide a fair amount of firepower before leaving oneself vulnerable during a reload. There are larger magazines like 100rnd c-mags but they’re heavy and unwieldy and more prone to mechanical failure.

For a weapon like a battle rifle 20 rounds is the balance for an effective fighting weapon simply because the bullets it fires are larger and larger magazines become a hindrance.

Do you… uh… live in an isolated cabin somewhere full of weaponry and refuse to take the census…?

I live in semi-rural suburbia in Nevada surrounded by teabaggers who think it would be just peachy if they could kill everyone they dislike without repercussions. I regularly overhear hear their hate-talk and see their hate-propaganda when I am at local gun stores.

Oppressed groups absolutely should be limited in their access to firepower, just like anyone else. You’re not going to stop oppression just by toting a massive gun around all day, seriously. And more cynically, in this world do you think that if you get 30 bullets someone else won’t still have 30-bullet-clips for each of their half dozen bodyguards? If you’re oppressed you’re not going to win the arms race by buying more and more bullets.

It’d be nice if privileged groups and their tools were limited to the same firepower restrictions they demand of their oppressed, but it’s already far from equal, more restrictions just means it’s easier for mercenaries, police, and “approved persons” with class 3 weapon permits to kill unapproved people.

I don’t believe that firepower by itself will stop oppression, but it can bring oppressors to the table for dialogue if they fear what their violence will be met with, otherwise they won’t care about wiping out their enemies because no harm would come to them.

I also reject the idea that one shouldn’t fight back if it’s obvious you’ll lose; if people are trying to actively kill you the only rational response is to meet them with violence.

And your comments read like you think I advocate proactive violence with your mention about bodyguards, like I proscribe assassination, I don’t.

Comment #93: R.T.  on  01/22  at  06:29 PM

Comment #99: Katherine

I think I should be allowed weapons to defend my unique, singular existence against brutal dominating and hateful groups. It’s consistent that I then think everyone should be allowed weapons then. Otherwise I’d be a hypocrite.

Comment #101: 3letterjon

Your entire comment reeks of gender/biological sexual essentialism, something which feminism and lgbt activism is fighting against.

And it’s fucking sick to suggest that the bodies of criminals (who yes are still human beings regardless of their crimes) should be mandatorily altered. What else do you think is acceptable? Lobotomy? Amputation? Gosh it’d sure make people easier to control if you could just immobilize them and rob them of their minds.

But oh I forgot that the stereotype that all persons who own guns are hyper masculine, testosterone poisoned yet insecure gender conformist is true. /angry sarcasm.

Comment #94: R.T.  on  01/22  at  06:51 PM

@RT: I’m not endorsing 3LJ’s proposal, but you really shouldn’t be surprised when a hyperbolic statement (the ability to murder is a human right) is met by an equally hyperbolic statement (chemical castration). I mean…come on.

I think I should be allowed weapons to defend my unique, singular existence against brutal dominating and hateful groups.

Why is this somehow preferable to preventing brutal, dominating and hateful groups from having weapons? I mean, I believe that every person has the right to live peacefully as they see fit and to be protected from harm, but arming yourself to the teeth kind of flies in the face of the whole “peacefully” part of that…I recognize that you consider the police to be your enemy, and won’t argue that they may well be, but why is the solution not then to reform law enforcement rather than just go nuts and get ready to go Red Dawn on everyone?

Siege mentalities, while understandable, are seldom helpful.

Comment #95: Well, what?  on  01/22  at  08:40 PM

I’m not endorsing 3LJ’s proposal, but you really shouldn’t be surprised when a hyperbolic statement (the ability to murder is a human right) is met by an equally hyperbolic statement (chemical castration). I mean…come on.

I’m being earnest, and in good faith I assume others are being earnest too.

Why is this somehow preferable to preventing brutal, dominating and hateful groups from having weapons?

It would be preferable if there where no brutal and dominating people, but unfortunately in the spectrum of being human there are those who are just that. However the kind of authoritarian police state required to identify and prevent those people from being what they are would be worse than everyone armed to defend themselves when required.

I mean, I believe that every person has the right to live peacefully as they see fit and to be protected from harm, but arming yourself to the teeth kind of flies in the face of the whole “peacefully” part of that…I recognize that you consider the police to be your enemy, and won’t argue that they may well be, but why is the solution not then to reform law enforcement rather than just go nuts and get ready to go Red Dawn on everyone?

I don’t percieve the conflict in being peaceful and caring of others and being armed. Being armed and willing to defend oneself is not an obligation to be violent, one is just better prepared when those who are not willing to be peaceful decide that one’s amicable and conflict avoidant behavior can be abused to the point of one’s destruction.

Siege mentalities, while understandable, are seldom helpful.

I fail to understand how maintaining sense social and situational awareness is maladaptive

Comment #96: R.T.  on  01/22  at  09:42 PM

I fail to understand how maintaining a sense of social and situational awareness is maladaptive.

Comment #97: R.T.  on  01/22  at  09:43 PM

However the kind of authoritarian police state required to identify and prevent those people from being what they are would be worse than everyone armed to defend themselves when required.

Yeah, like that violent police-state wasteland of ...uh… most other 1st world countries.

And please, let me know how the whole “arm yourself to the teeth and wage literally physical warfare on your oppressors” thing is gonna work out for, for example, the non-able-bodied? Kids? People in prisons and hospitals? People who can’t afford guns? People who don’t want to die in a cop-shooting blaze of glory because they watch too many action movies?

Well, what? said it best: “Siege mentalities, while understandable, are seldom helpful.” And, as I think someone else pointed out upthread, once you’re in the kind of situation where 15 bullets vs. 30 bullets without reloading makes a difference… you’re already completely fucked. If the entire US military tries to kick down your door there is not a damn thing you could do about it. So why arm yourself to the teeth and hyperventilate? You’re much more likely to die in a car crash or something anyways.

Comment #98: Bagelsan  on  01/23  at  04:47 AM

Chemical ‘castration’ is monstrous, mostly because it doesn’t do what it intends to and does all sorts of damage to the psyche and body.

And while I find most of RT’s points to be very factually based… There is a big difference between being aware of your surroundings and preparing for the worst every minute of the day.  The latter is probably not healthy.

Lock your guns, not your doors.

Comment #99: Crissa  on  01/23  at  07:33 AM

It would be preferable if there where no brutal and dominating people, but unfortunately in the spectrum of being human there are those who are just that.

Dude…nobody is talking about preventing hateful people from being shitheads. But we can keep them from being shitheads with guns. Dealing with the existence of total shitbag losers without SHOOTING THEM is part of being an ADULT IN A CIVILIZATION.

Comment #100: Well, what?  on  01/23  at  03:56 PM

Seriously RT. If you are in fact arguing in good faith here, you are no different from the idiot who thinks he needs a truckful of guns in case “Those People” decide to revolt. You have let your fear turn you into exactly that which you claim to hate.

Comment #101: Well, what?  on  01/23  at  03:58 PM

Comment #107: Bagelsan

Yeah, like that violent police-state wasteland of ...uh… most other 1st world countries.

All of which that have hierarchical social, economic, and governmental structures that let a few benefit from the toil and misery of the rest, countries that deliberately destabilize developing nations for their benefit? Great example.

Something to note is that I am disabled. I have one arm, I lost the other to cancer. I’m not expecting that everyone be beefy soldier types, because I can’t even be that. Chemo fucks you up.

But I can still operate my assault rifle and semi-automatic handgun even if I greatly prefer revolvers these days. Oh and hey look everyone here’s an example where magazine size is non-trivial to an individual’s ease of operating a weapon. You operate two handed weapons with your feet and tell me how easy it is to reload.

And when it comes to people who can’t afford guns: ever notice the movement to make guns more expensive? That’s about pricing the lower class out of access to weaponry, and who makes up the lower classes? Oh only the non-privileged who are all considered potential criminals.

And lastly, quit strawmanning my arguments by assuming that only a regular government military is out to destroy oppressed classes. There are numerous examples of police and civilian groups doing that in the history of the US. In those cases fighting back isn’t a losing proposition and like I have written already, it’s rational to fight back even if it’s obvious you’ll lose when someone is going to really honestly kill you.

Finally maybe a person shouldn’t wear a seatbelt if they’re more likely to die from a heart attack or cancer.

Comment #108: Crissa

There is a big difference between being aware of your surroundings and preparing for the worst every minute of the day.  The latter is probably not healthy.

Try wearing a gun (or mace) or even just keeping one next to you all the time in the house. It doesn’t wear on your conscience or make you paranoid, it simply a reminder to be alert and steer clear dangerous situations.

Comment #110: Well, what?

Dude…nobody is talking about preventing hateful people from being shitheads. But we can keep them from being shitheads with guns. Dealing with the existence of total shitbag losers without SHOOTING THEM is part of being an ADULT IN A CIVILIZATION.

I’m taking about the kinds of power obsessed, greedy, self-centered types of people who actively try to get in positions of power and use it against everyone in society. These people are not shitbag losers but people out to “win” against everyone else by any means necessary, who become corporate executives and politicians, or all their authoritarian lackeys who make others suffer so they can stay on top of the social pyramid.

And as I have written repeatedly, violence should be a last resort if discussion won’t prevent them from destroying you as part of a non-privileged group.

Seriously RT. If you are in fact arguing in good faith here, you are no different from the idiot who thinks he needs a truckful of guns in case “Those People” decide to revolt. You have let your fear turn you into exactly that which you claim to hate.

I am not “those people” as I am not an authoritarian. If you think defending yourself from authoritarians makes you one yourself, you’ve got twisted thinking and that’s your problem, not mine.

Comment #102: R.T.  on  01/23  at  05:04 PM

@ 3lettrjon @96: #2 is sexist.  Are yu assuming only men are convicted felons?  right…  I know you know better.

Comment #103: helen w. h.  on  01/23  at  10:12 PM

I am well aware my proposals were hyperbolic and sexist, just as I was aware that the radical proposals were unlikely to even be considered by the most anti-gun states.  But I do know that most gun criminals are men.  That’s just how things work.  Maybe a simple amputation of the trigger fingers of convicted felons caught with guns would be better?  Not sexist, right?  I’m talking about felons who got convicted, served a sentence, got released, and still—knowing full well that they lost the right to own a gun—chose to carry one.  It’s hardly an arbitrary and malicious thing to want to punish such people with a little more than the traditional prison sentence.  Even most gun-nuts would agree that convicted felons shouldn’t have guns.

Comment #104: 3letterjon  on  01/24  at  01:04 AM

gun manufacturing is big business, and the NRA basically stands in for the financial well-being of the gun industry.  (For the gun industry, mass shootings are good business.  Glock sales shot up after the shooting, and the cynic in me has to point out that an incident where a man hit 19 people with 31 bullets is a good advertisement for the gun’s accuracy.

The gun manufacturing business is not particularly big—roughly the size of the pickle business. (They’ll have to pry my kosher dills from my cold dead hands.) The NRA is a citizens’ lobby like NARAL. It relies on gunowners’ fears of not being able to buy guns or ammunition, just as NARAL relies on women’s fears of not being able to get an abortion when they need one. Only a wingnut would argue that NARAL exists because “the abortion industry” is “big business.”

Glock sales shot up after the shooting because, historically, mass shootings by madmen have resulted in gun restrictions on the sane and the non-murderous. The bans were tailored to the madmen’s weapons of choice.

I noticed that no one on the footwear of tyranny thread pointed out that the JBT meme was created by Democratic Congressman and lifelong universal healthcare advocate John Dingell: “If I were to select a jack-booted group of fascists who are perhaps as large a danger to American society as I could pick today, I would pick BATF.”

Comment #105: Hector B.  on  01/24  at  03:38 PM

Hector, I disagree.  I think much of the jump is fictional with dealers filling paperwork on items long since sold with the paperwork lost, set aside, not bothered with, until it looked like someone might come to check that the rules were being followed and all the papers in order.

Comment #106: helen w. h.  on  01/25  at  04:52 PM

What possible thought process could be behind buying the same type gun the shooter used other than “I wanna be just like the shooter”?

That’s not a rhetorical question, I’m willing to believe there’s another explanation, I just can’t fathom what it might be.

Furthermore, my girlfriend, who of course happens to be female
Comment 38—BlauStolz

And don’t anyone say any different. Or he might have to defend himself against those horrible, disgusting insinuations. Y’know, defend himself.

Jerking off in public gets you arrested (that’s what I hear, anyway)
Comment 48—entrails

Really? Have you been arrested for this comment?

Comment #107: Hershele Ostropoler  on  01/26  at  04:37 PM
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