Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: America Should Really Take A Pay Cut Previous entry: NC: Call2Action fundie chairs Wake County School Board, steering schools toward resegregation

Having it both ways on global warming

This morning, I posted about how health care reform opponents are taking the “throw a bunch of shit and see what sticks” approach, which of course means making anti-health care claims that flat out contradict each other.  This is far from an unusual tactic with conservatives, since the conservative movement has fully embraced the idea that it’s just as good, and possibly better, to create rationalizations for their predetermined beliefs as it is to look at the evidence and arguments and really think about them.  Which is really thrown into stark relief when it comes to global warming, where rationalization is the only contribution right wingers make to the debate, and so of course often flatly contradict themselves. 

I was already annoyed when I read that Chris Wallace wants to have a “debate” between politicians about the reality of global warming.  Hey, high school cross-ex debate can be unintelligible, but at least those kids know that just because you win a debate doesn’t mean your arguments have any actual merit, much less that you are right.  No number of Sarah Palin right wing witless cracks expressed to get the Fox News audience cackling will do a damn thing to change CO2 levels in the atmosphere, thus a “debate” on the subject is functionally useless, especially since there is exactly no chance of there being evidence presented and examined soberly.

But that level of annoyance only exploded when I saw that Rep. Joe Barton of Texas is pulling the “hey, we should want global warming!” card, while also minimizing the reality of it.  It was a classic example of throwing out a bunch of contradictory arguments and hoping whatever one you want to hear will stick.

CO2 is odorless, colorless, tasteless – it’s not a threat to human health in terms of being exposed to it. We create it as we talk back and forth. So, and if you go beyond that, on a net basis, there’s ample evidence that warming generically — however it is caused — is a net benefit to mankind.

So, he’s actually trying to argue that because we breathe CO2 out, that means that it is impossible for it to be a greenhouse gas, which is the “my shit don’t stink” argument if I ever heard one.  We know that Barton knows he’s lying, by the way, because if we offered to put him in a room full of nothing but CO2 on the grounds that we breathe it out and so it must be completely harmless, I think he’d decline.  But of course, even that misses the point.  No one is arguing that global warming is bad because we don’t want to breathe CO2.  We’re arguing that global warming is bad because the climate change is going to be ruinous to the ecosystem that we rely on for survival. 

Of course, what Barton is trying to do is have it both ways: argue against the reality of global warming while also arguing that it’s a something we should embrace.  But you can’t have it both ways.  To say that global warming is positive is to admit that it exists.  To deny that it exists is to admit that it’s a bad thing that will happen.  Conservatives are up a creek in a sense on this, because they want an argument that will get both people who are resentful of reality and people who perceive it and therefore are eager to push lies for the hell of it, and people who have enough self-respect to not want to be seen as someone too stupid to get the evidence for global warming, but want to minimize the ugly reality of it.  Unfortunately, as I noted earlier, there’s no penalty for throwing out contradictory arguments.  There’s no penalty for throwing out absurdly stupid arguments, either. 

I swear to god, a conservative could go on TV and say, “There’s no global warming, and here’s the proof!”, lift the mic up to his ass and blow a fart in it, and that could very well be taken as a serious argument on the same level as mountains of evidence for the reality of global warming.  Otherwise, how could we be “fair”?

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:56 PM • (31) Comments

Back five-seven years ago, I too found it hard to understand how gases I exhaled (CO2 and water vapor) could be bad for the environment. The problem is not the carbon that is recycled from us to the plants that we eat, but fossilized carbon that has been trapped for millenia until we liberate it in our cars and power plants. Excess carbon is the problem.

Comment #1: Hector B.  on  12/14  at  07:36 PM

For many of the rubes to whom shitheels like Barton are speaking, there simply exists no realm of objective reality about which one can pose propositions called “facts” that must be either “true” or “false”, and whose status as such can be discerned by consideration of something called “evidence”. It literally represents a deep-seated visceral rejection of the Enlightenment.

Comment #2: PhysioProf  on  12/14  at  07:44 PM

Yeah, he doesn’t get the difference between carbon that is naturally part of the carbon cycle and the “trapped” carbon from coal and oil we release. Stupid or evil?t Rep. Barton is a prostitute of the oil industry, so I’m going with “evil”.

Comment #3: Ben D.  on  12/14  at  07:54 PM

CO2 is odorless, colorless, tasteless – it’s not a threat to human health in terms of being exposed to it. We create it as we talk back and forth. So, and if you go beyond that, on a net basis, there’s ample evidence that warming generically — however it is caused — is a net benefit to mankind.

I say we put Representative Barton in to an airtight chamber filled with 100% CO2. By his logic, he should instantly become superhuman.

Comment #4: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  12/14  at  08:01 PM

“CO2 is odorless, colorless, tasteless – it’s not a threat to human health in terms of being exposed to it.”

...which is why I vote to have Joe Barton demonstrate just how harmless it is by locking himself in a car, rolling up all the windows, turning off the AC, and then opening a cylinder of CO2 (or empty a CO2 fire extinguisher) inside to displace the normal Nitrogen/Oxygen gas mix.  A good 10 minutes should do it…

Comment #5: MikeEss  on  12/14  at  08:01 PM

Dan and I posted the same idea at the same time… smile

Comment #6: MikeEss  on  12/14  at  08:02 PM

By that logic, when global warming causes cities to flood, it’s going to be so awesome, because anything that keeps you hydrated and healthy can ‘t be bad, right?

Comment #7: cycles  on  12/14  at  08:06 PM

”...because anything that keeps you hydrated and healthy can ‘t be bad, right?”

...of course.  After all, water is odorless, colorless, and tasteless — just like the modern Republican Party…

Comment #8: MikeEss  on  12/14  at  08:08 PM

Iocaine powder is also odorless, colorless, and tasteless. I’m just saying.

Comment #9: Cornpone Down Under  on  12/14  at  08:30 PM

CO2 is odorless, colorless, tasteless – it’s not a threat to human health in terms of being exposed to it. We create it as we talk back and forth. So, and if you go beyond that, on a net basis, there’s ample evidence that warming generically — however it is caused — is a net benefit to mankind.

OK, well, by that logic, I think Rep. Barton should hold town hall sessions where he lies down on the floor, holds his mouth gaping open, and allow his constituents to urinate and defecate into it.

After all, since shit and piss are excreted by people, they can’t really be that bad for you, can they?

Comment #10: DTG in STL  on  12/14  at  08:31 PM

I swear to god, a conservative could go on TV and say, “There’s no global warming, and here’s the proof!”, lift the mic up to his ass and blow a fart in it,

Methane is actually a potent greenhouse gas, to the point that collecting and burning methane (preferably to use for energy, but just burning it, period) is a sensible net benefit to prevent its release into the atmosphere.

Farts contain methane.

Don’t be surprised if that debate tactic isn’t taken seriously by someone in the not-too-distant future.

Comment #11: LongHairedWeirdo  on  12/14  at  09:12 PM

Methane is actually a potent greenhouse gas, to the point that collecting and burning methane (preferably to use for energy, but just burning it, period) is a sensible net benefit to prevent its release into the atmosphere.

- sorry, forgot to caveat that: “Or so I’ve heard”. Please don’t take that as a scientific reference; I’ve only seen it stated second hand.

Comment #12: LongHairedWeirdo  on  12/14  at  09:15 PM

You what’s really cool?

Permafrost melting.  Especially in Siberia.

Whole bunches of giant mammals like mammoths died thousands of years ago (over thousands of years, even) and their bodies were frozen and buried.  Now that it’s melting, their bodies are being uncovered and thawing and decaying.

Releasing methane and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.

Joy.

(Don’t just take my word for it.  Google “siberian permafrost melting” and take your pick of 100,000 sites referencing it)

Comment #13: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/14  at  09:26 PM

Rep. Barton is a prostitute of the oil industry, so I’m going with “evil”.

I dunno. He sounded pretty goddamn stupid in that clip. I’d be embarrassed with such inanity coming out of my mouth recorded for all times. And the reporter/interviewer didn’t even call him on his nonsense.

Comment #14: Matt T.  on  12/14  at  09:55 PM

Amanda - I think you’ve hit on the plot of the next Terrence & Philip movie…

Comment #15: Danica Lefse Queen  on  12/14  at  10:03 PM

I’m with Mike and Dan, but I’d like to point out that even the lie is a lie. CO2 isn’t exactly odorless and tasteless, because it turns into carbonic acid on contact with liquids, including the liquids in your oral and nasal cavities. Anyone who’s been right next to a high concentration can confirm there’s a zing.

And yeah, you can only have a debate when both sides are committed to telling something like the truth. Maybe if climate scientists started playing up the fact that aliens from Mongo have been in league with communists and islamofascists to inject CO2 into our atmosphere in a plot to create droughts that will destroy the American Farming Heartland we’d be able to get some traction.

Comment #16: paul  on  12/14  at  10:46 PM

Well, and what kills me is he’s not even addressing the debate.  I think he probably just transmitted an excuse he uses to defend other kinds of pollution that cause asthma.  His nickname is “Smokey”, and so I’m sure he has a long history of denying that pollutants that are dangerous to human beings are.  So he just assumed that would work here.  But of course, concerns about CO2 and methane don’t have anything to do with direct danger from inhaling these gases in the atmosphere.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/14  at  10:53 PM

After all, since shit and piss are excreted by people, they can’t really be that bad for you, can they?

And, hell, urine is sterile!  It’s actually perfectly safe to drink.  I think Rep. Barton should sponsor a bill mandating that the milk in public school cafeterias be replaced with urine.

Comment #18: The Opoponax  on  12/14  at  11:16 PM

If CO2 is so harmless, can we lock him in a sealed room and knock the regulator off a tank of it?

Comment #19: Ms Kate  on  12/14  at  11:35 PM

so ... when is Rep Barton going to buy waterfront vacation property in Galveston?  There are plenty of empty lots available already ...

Comment #20: Ms Kate  on  12/14  at  11:39 PM

I see that I’m not the first to think of that.  Darn.  Maybe we wouldn’t need a tank ... just tell him to keep talking.

Comment #21: Ms Kate  on  12/14  at  11:42 PM

For many of the rubes to whom shitheels like Barton are speaking, there simply exists no realm of objective reality about which one can pose propositions called “facts” that must be either “true” or “false”, and whose status as such can be discerned by consideration of something called “evidence”. It literally represents a deep-seated visceral rejection of the Enlightenment.

They are using psychological regression as a defence mechanism!

Comment #22: scratchy888  on  12/15  at  12:40 AM

[parrot article here]
[claim as own here]
[see barton in mirror]

Comment #23: pcleddy  on  12/15  at  01:43 AM

pcleddy:

[parrot article here]
[claim as own here]
[see barton in mirror]

Thank you for once again demonstrating why stupid people shouldn’t be allowed to vote.

Seriously, that doesn’t even make sense.

Comment #24: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  12/15  at  02:38 AM

Of course, what Barton is trying to do is have it both ways: argue against the reality of global warming while also arguing that it’s a something we should embrace.  But you can’t have it both ways.  To say that global warming is positive is to admit that it exists.  To deny that it exists is to admit that it’s a bad thing that will happen.  Conservatives are up a creek in a sense on this,

He said that warming generically is a net benefit to mankind. You get that this is not an admission to believing that humans are causing global warming, right?

Comment #25: Progressive_Prince  on  12/15  at  03:10 AM

An actual national politician said that on national television and wasn’t laughed at? Wow.

That’s so stupid he can’t possibly believe it, surely?  Because if he does - if an actual national level politician, tasked with looking after the interests of the US, could believe such preposterous drivel then we (and by we, I mean the whole world) are all screwed.

Comment #26: Katherine  on  12/15  at  07:00 AM

Cornpone Down Under,
I’d say his words are inconceivably stupid, but I don’t think that word would mean what he thinks it means.

Comment #27: helen w. h.  on  12/15  at  11:03 AM

Just heard an NPR report last night on what global warming is already doing in Bangladesh - flooding and salination of low-lying coastal fields, causing once self-sufficient-at-least farmers to become city slum dwellers.  The estimate is that 30 million Bangladeshis will be forced to immigrate - neighboring overcrowded India can’t/won’t have them - so is Barton ready to welcome those folks? 

I’m wondering if that’s how you win this GW debate? Use their own rhetoric of being overrun with brown/yellow hordes and suddenly GW is a menace that needs to be stopped?

(Yeah, I know, that rhetoric is hateful, but I’ a Petardist - love to see people being hoisted on their own.

Comment #28: phylosopher  on  12/15  at  12:11 PM

Didn’t Michele Bachmann make a similar claim a few months ago?  I mean, about the CO2 being harmless thing.

Comment #29: bananacat  on  12/15  at  12:21 PM

I’m wondering if that’s how you win this GW debate? Use their own rhetoric of being overrun with brown/yellow hordes and suddenly GW is a menace that needs to be stopped?

That’s why the Pentagon, on a strategic level, is starting to take it seriously.  Not that the US will be invaded, but that mass movements of people will create security issues in other countries that the US could get dragged into.

Comment #30: KeithM  on  12/15  at  01:07 PM

I put a note on another ‘Global Warming/Climate Change’ thread that will cause you to wonder if the old guy hasn’t ‘lost it’. The crux of the matter is that the so-called ‘model’ is an unrealistic oversimplification of chaotic reality involving more factors than are being represented.
Anybody remember when the Weather Report might be accurate if the Meteorolgist could poke his head out the window…to say what was happening at that moment ? I know : the mainstream media report differently.
Fox News is mainstream media. Wake up and smell the bacon.
Who are you going to believe : a unanimous concensus…or a bunch of people who disagree on almost everything ?
Do we have liberals here or not ? You should recognize the comparison.
http://opitslinkfest.blogspot.com/2009/12/4-dec-following-trail-climate-fraud-and.html

Comment #31: opit  on  12/18  at  03:55 AM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.