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Next entry: Making ourselves happy makes us so unhappy! Previous entry: JJ Abrams, a nation (or two) turns its lonely eyes to you

Health care in the U.S. - stop bickering and fix it

UPDATE: People have pointed me to this DKos diary, where it appears Holmes was not diagnosed with a brain tumor, but a cyst, and she has repeatedly appeared on TV claiming the tumor story. While that’s not particularly surprising, that even underscores the bottom line is her story proves we need reform because she had to put a second mortgage on her home, borrow from friends and her husband took a second job to be able to afford the $100k U.S. surgery.


Q of the day: do you have a health care horror story to share? Was it denial of service or meds by your insurance, or hospital bureaucracy, or something even more onerous, like poor quality care?

***

I have to agree with this assertion over at Eschaton—“The reality is if you get real sick, no matter if you’re insured or not, you’re probably financially fucked.” The partisan bickering over how much it is going to cost is ludicrous—the cost is just one part of the problem, the fact that we have so many people uninsured and worse, under-insured, is the reality of too many Americans and to get everyone adequate care will likely cost trillions.

Those of us who do have decent insurance, are rightfully concerned that government mucking around in the system and playing politics with something that should be a right—equal access to GOOD medical care for all—is going to end up a big mess.

I’m not going to debate the merits of one plan or another here; I’m just looking at health care as a “frequent flyer” consumer with pre-existing conditions who sees doctors and specialists several times a year, and has adequate insurance that still has left me with long waits to see a specialist (3 months is not unheard of), and dealt with substandard care.

In our current system nearly everyone has horror stories about waiting for insurance to approve the most basic common sense things—like one extra day in the hospital after a c-section, or trying to get a medication not yet in generic form that you and your doctor know works and the insurance company insists on a different generic substitute or you pay outright. The number and type of what I call “drive-by” surgeries, where they kick you to the curb a couple of hours after you’ve been opened up on the table is astonishing— they wanted to do that for my gall bladder surgery and I begged to stay overnight because I’ve had complications after ambulatory surgery before that landed me back in the ER the next day. Thankfully it was approved, because I was right—I developed a fever and had serious difficulties that I wouldn’t have been able to manage at home.

But what if the insurance company had said no. That happens all the time. It happened to me several years ago, I wasn’t able to stay overnight and went into the drive-through surgery; I developed a serious staph infection. It required a

second surgery

a couple of weeks later. Oh, and I had to pay a lot out of pocket for that second surgery even though I wasn’t responsible for the need for it, even with insurance. A little time and attention would have saved everyone a lot of grief.

And prescription insurance—well big pharma makes us all pay for the price controls in other countries. I totaled up medications I take each month to see what they would cost if I didn’t have insurance—over $900/month! That’s insane. John’s story is no better, and again, he

has insurance

.

I didn’t know what my good plan covered until I got asthma as a result of my allergies. Now I know that my asthma drugs cost a whopping $471 a month. That’s $5,652 a year. After Blue Cross’ paltry share, that leaves me with $4,152 a year in asthma drugs (not counting any other prescriptions I may have to take for other unrelated problems that may arise). My insurance costs me nearly $420 a month. That’s another $5,040 a year. And the premium goes up around 25% a year. Imagine how much it’s going to be in ten years when I’m 55. And the joke, Blue Cross will still only give me $1500 in prescription drug coverage ten years from now - that’s the way their policy works. I got $1500 when I started 12 years ago with them, and I’ll have $1500 in ten years.

The problem here—and I’m calling out all of the elected officials on the Hill—is that while they are bickering about numbers (it will be huge no matter what we end up with I want all of them to answer one question: do they believe every person in the country is entitled to the same health care choices and offerings as Congress? If not, why not?

It’s too expensive” is not a legitimate answer.

That answer is loaded with the difficult truth underlying the debate—a lot of people determining the fate of our health care system believe there should be a tiered level of care—that some people are deserving of A+ quality care with all the options available, and some are not, and should be satisfied with something less, or fewer options because they poor or underinsured. If this is the case, state it now.

If Congress is satisfied with their current care, why not price out that model to cover everyone, and work the numbers. Obviously Dear Leader didn’t put a price tag on his war adventures and we’re still running up an endless tab that produced death and destruction that Congress keeps funding.

The high cost of health care is also due to doctors and hospitals covering their butts with extra unnecessary tests to avoid lawsuits, emergency rooms flooded with people who have no insurance and cannot pay, so the cost is passed on to those who can. Big pharma counts on us to boost the profits they cannot extract from countries with price controls; doctors have to carry high liability insurance because we’re such a litigious society…the list goes on and on.

Employer group policy deductibles keep rising each year, or services are reduced because the employer cannot afford to underwrite the costs to hold the line on premiums. No one should have their health care plan tied to their employment. It has to be portable and stable.  COBRA, intended to provide portability of a policy for those who leave a job, is often too expensive.

And remember, if your plan is tied to your employment and you’re have pre-existing conditions, you better find a large company with a big group policy and never leave that job, since small businesses are more likely to have crappier policies or heinously high premiums—or offer no insurance at all.

The whole system is broken—except when it’s not and works just fine for a good number of people.

Why is it so difficult to put that level of priority setting on health care? Maybe I’m missing something.
So back to the debate—since any solution—public/private/co-op will be a huge, expensive endeavor—what is the baseline of quality services that everyone should receive? Ability to pay should not matter, because we already know we have millions of unemployed people without the ability to pay right now. We have a system where only the well-insured and wealthy are able to get expedited or specialized care.
The real underlying problem here in all of this—and I think it’s tied to the general capitalist, class-based mindset in this country—that there’s a basic assumption that the health of some Americans is worth more than others. And I’m not just talking about the super-wealthy, it goes for the “aspirational set” as well. You know, the Rush listener, the Base, the blue-collar social conservatives who dream of the wealth and upward mobility that the Republicans sell them—until those titans of industry shut the plants down or move them overseas, and leave Joe Lunchbucket high and dry with an empty wallet, no health insurance and a family to feed. Only then does the reality set in.

Because of that there will always be a feeling out there it’s essential for any reform to include a way to “get a leg up” in terms of access and services that preserves the best care for the class-based or luck-based (you have a good job with great health plan benefits) privileged, leaving anyone who doesn’t getting cost-restricted, access-restricted services.

Let’s take a look at an ad (R) you might be seeing on your TV right now.

The commercials running down here in NC are outlandishly slanted and misleading, particularly one from a group called Patients United Now. The ad, “Survivor,” features a Canadian woman, Shona Holmes, who had a brain tumor, telling her story about her health care nightmare. She had to come to the U.S. to receive first-class care because the six-month wait to see a specialist in her country would have cost her life.

Her story is true. She’s right in one respect - we do have first-class health care here—if you have enough money you can buy any health services you need. She might be able to cross over to the U.S, but some people living here, even with insurance, can’t afford jack.

What you didn’t see in that ad is what she and her friends and family had to do to make that U.S. medical care happen. Holmes testified at a Health Reform Hearing before the Energy and Commerce Committee and you can see why Patients United Now didn’t add this bit of business:

My family and I decided to contact the Mayo Clinic in Arizona. We got an appointment immediately and I flew alone to Phoenix, 2,000 miles from my home outside of Toronto. Within a week, the doctors at the Mayo Clinic diagnosed me with a brain tumor, pressing on my optic chiasm causing the rapid vision loss. I had to have it removed within six weeks or my vision would continue to deteriorate and I would lose my sight. This was the tip of the iceberg of treatment that I would need to seek; however, it was the most crucial.

Three weeks after my diagnosis and unable to expedite the surgery in Canada, my husband bumped up hours in a second job, took out a second mortgage on our home, borrowed from family and friends, and rallied all of our financial resources so we could cover the $100,000 worth of expenses for my surgery and we flew back to Arizona so the doctors at the Mayo Clinic could remove my tumor. Ironically at that time a second surgery was strongly recommended by the Mayo clinic.

I required a second surgery to remove my adrenal glad. I returned to Canada and got back in line. I am here to report that surgery was done in Canada, but three years later. I will never know the amount of irreversible tissue damage that such wait times have caused. I will never get back the time, money, and life I dedicated to the fight to get the basic treatment that I was not only promised by my government, but was ordered by my government. I will never forget the experience of treatment in a facility suffering so badly from government funding shortages in staff and resources that even a pillow case on my bed was not to be found.

I know that the American health care system is not perfect, but again, I credit the system for saving my life. It is because of the choices available here in this country that I was able to receive the immediate care I needed. We as Canadians have one insurance company – the government. No option. Can’t choose another company, can’t supplement with after-tax dollars to purchase extra care. We can purchase health insurance for our pets, but not our children.

In Canada, I have very few rights as a patient. Patients there have to fight for the very basic services and care, much less any kind of specialized care. I am here today not only to tell you my own story but also to ask you, as leaders of this great country, not to destroy American health care but to keep in place the options that all Americans have for acquiring health care. Where would we Canadians go if the American health care system becomes like Canada’s?

She told CNN:
“That’s the stuff that I find so tragic—having dinner with my friends and I know how much money I owe them,” Holmes says, tears streaming down her face.

Now tell me, how many Americans could say the same thing about our own system? What she had to go through to pull together $100K shouldn’t have to be done either!

No one said the Canadian system is perfect; particularly in cases where specialists are needed, everyone should have timely access for serious deadly conditions. However, in this country, people who are underinsured or uninsured can be bankrupted by treatment for illnesses or injuries much less severe than Shona Holmes’s brain tumor. That’s the problem—the commercial doesn’t show who’s left out of the current U.S. system and who is cut off from the services they need.

From my POV, given our dog-eat-dog mentality here in the U.S., it’s hard to imagine a public/private/co-op system emerging that will 1) hold down costs, and 2) provide first-class care in a timely manner to

everyone

that compares to the best private insurance out there now or what someone with deep pockets can buy. Polls show Americans want a universal health care that is comprehensive—but no one wants to pay for it. We can’t have it both ways, and Congress knows that. To the layperson out there all of the parties out there have a lot to lose and nothing to gain in an overhaul that is drenched in partisan politics.

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Posted by Pam Spaulding on 04:08 PM • (82) Comments

Shona Holmes’ reported wait times are horrendous, but for that ad to suggest this is the norm in Canada is misleading.  I don’t argue there isn’t a critical mass of patients affected by outrageous wait times in Canada (we probably all know someone), and that our system doesn’t need to be fixed ASA-fucking-P, or that I haven’t personally waited 8 hours in emergency to be treated for a non-life threatening sickness, but—for crying out loud—for every Holmes there are a dozen instances of timely, effective, compassionate, non-scandalous care for ourselves, families and friends, anecdotal and otherwise.  I personally still haven’t met anyone who’s actually had to go abroad for health care (and plenty of my acquaintances can afford it), nor have I known a cancer patient to be long-lined or left to linger.  My husband’s cancer-survivor step-mother has been getting consistently awesome, attentive care in Toronto for 5 years, now, and this isn’t a woman with extra money to spare for “extras”, either.  When will someone make an ad out of her experience-as-truth?

Comment #1: Ranylt  on  07/19  at  04:28 PM

Speaking as a Canadian here, I’m always hearing from wingnuts about how much waiting time there is in the Canadian emergency rooms. If you have insurance in the US, don’t you still have to wait in line? Or do you see a doctor 5 minutes after arriving?

When I got a crippling calcificated tendonitis in my elbow (drawing side) a few years back, it took two hours for me to see a doc in emergency at the private clinic (free) and get a prescription (20$ with state meds insurance). By the end of the day I was finally able to bend my arm and the pain was gone.

Comment #2: sirkowski  on  07/19  at  05:16 PM

Don’t forget that last month the three largest insurance companies testified to Congress.  They were asked to stop using recission(revoking coverage after a serious disease is discovered) except for clear cases of fraud. 

They REFUSED.

That is how a nurse who forgot to mention a treatment for a yeast infection had her coverage yanked when she developed breast cancer.  That’s how a guy who’s doctor’s notes contained a question about a possible condition—a concern he didn’t voice to the patient—had his coverage yanked when he had a heart attack.

Women with breast cancer are very likely to have their coverage yanked.  As soon as you are diagnosed with a serious disease, the insurance company starts researching your file and looking for any reason to pull your coverage and not pay.

The 23 CEOs of the top 23 firms were paid almost $15 Billion (with a B) between 2000-2005.  Twenty-three men.  $15 Billion.  Made from taking in premiums and not paying the money out towards claims or medical care.

How many people died for lack of medical services so that 23 men could take home hundreds of millions of dollars annually?  Add in VPs and other honchos?  How many people did they kill for that blood money?  How many people do they kill to lobby Congress to keep those salaries?

Currently, Delta Dental takes our premiums, and then fucks with our SSN (they’ve reversed mine and my husbands) and fucks with our birthdates so that we don’t show up in the system.  When we try to call them, we can’t get through the voice mail b/c the SSN and birthdays don’t match.  I HAVE our original form, we just faxed it to HR.  Delta Dental, largest dental insurer in the country, is going out of their way to avoid paying our claims because that’s how they play the game.

There is no reason for a for-profit insurance agency.  All it does is suck money out of the system.  It should all be nonprofit, or better yet, single-payer.  Every cent of “profit” is money people pay for medical care that does nothing.  Hospitals and doctors hire staff just to fight the red tape and try to get paid.  The government should want to provide care; the insurance agencies do everything in their power to avoid paying for anything.  They practice medicine by refusing to cover medications and procedures.

Under a single payer system, medical cost would drop just b/c we no longer need to staff hospitals/doctors’ offices with people to fight for payment.  Payment is automatic.

If you’re rich enough, you can buy a concierge doctor who will come to your house.  The rich will ALWAYS be taken care of.  Doctors in Chicago already refuse to take any insurance.  You pay them up front, and then they give you a form that you can send in to your insurance to fight with them for payment.  That’s the future for everyone under the current system:  pay a fortune for coverage that then only provides a ‘discount’ and covers NOTHING.

The fact that the rest of us are expected to suffer and die b/c we’re not rich enough is offensive as hell.  It’s uncivilized.  Medicine is not market-driven.  The healthiest of people can still have a premature baby.  Marathon runners can still be hit by drunk drivers.  There’s no reason that they shouldn’t be able to be treated, that by receiving treatment, should be bankrupted.

Health care reform should be about providing health care to people, not about taking care of insurance agencies and forcing people to use them. 

And they just better not “compromise” on reproductive health.  Medical care is medical care.  If your religion doesn’t like it, don’t use it.

Comment #3: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/19  at  05:18 PM

I have great great great health insurance from my public sector job.  I had a $100K surgery and paid $600 out of pocket.  I probably take $1300 of drugs a month, but my copay is $10/month for generics.  I’m on “leave” at the moment, so I’m paying the whole premium for myself, which is $520/month.  If they would actually fire me, I could get in on the COBRA premium reduction and afford insurance for myself and my husband.  I’m not very experienced in the ways of being a sick person, but I’m sure I’ll wise up to a better way to do this.  I was basically healthy all my life until 25, when bam, an out of the blue, extremely rare condition appears.  I live in the middle of nowhere, so it’s a few hours’ drive for me to see the specialist I need.  Even seeing my GP is usually about a month’s wait, but she’s fantastic and really the only game in town so I wait.  I can usually weasel in a chance to see her since I know which days she works the urgent care clinic, though.

Comment #4: saraeanderson  on  07/19  at  05:31 PM

And prescription insurance—well big pharma makes us all pay for the price controls in other countries.

Oh-hoh.  Please don’t repeat wingnut talking points without backing them up.

Q: If the US imposed price controls the same way other countries do (actually, I believe Pharmac negotiates prices for the entire country), Big Pharma would:

a, Cease to function
b, Go bankrupt and need to have the US price controls removed OR
c, Scream loudly, cope nicely and still make a profit.

Comment #5: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/19  at  05:33 PM

15 surgeries on my right kidney between the ages of 13 and 23, then at 23 my COBRA coverage under my mothers insurance ran out. now i’m 5 years overdue for another surgery, can’t get private insurance, and despite being the picture of eligibility for medicaid i’ve been denied coverage twice.

now i’m waiting to hear back from the financial department at the hospital i always get my surgeries at to see if i qualify for their charity write off program. if so i can get my surgery for free, well, free for me. the actual cost will probably be a rise in everyone else’s premiums and tax dollar subsidies from the gov’t.

i don’t get why one canadian with a crap experience gets to testify before the US gov’t, yet the millions of American citizens with crap experiences don’t get their say.

i can’t wait til my fiance and i complete our degrees so we can beg canada to let us in.

Comment #6: jessilikewhoa  on  07/19  at  05:35 PM

“If you have insurance in the US, don’t you still have to wait in line? Or do you see a doctor 5 minutes after arriving? “

I’ve gone to the ER 3 times in the past 2 years. 1st was an inner ear infection that looked like it could be MS: I was taken back within 20 minutes and saw the doctor after less than an hour. 2nd was hyperemesis gravidarum, I was in immediately but never saw a doctor (nurse care was sufficient). 3rd was in labor, and I was taken up to L&D;10 minutes after my arrival, but didn’t see a doctor for 6 hours because they don’t have OBs on staff overnight.

At this point I get seen quicker going to the ER than when I see my regular doctors, but I think my luck in the ER in the past 2 years has been just that, luck. I have friends who’ve been to the same hospitals and have had to wait hours and hours in the waiting room. I think I just went when it wasn’t busy.

Comment #7: Ashley  on  07/19  at  05:38 PM

See here for example - I don’t know what other countries do, but I suspect it is also a case of using their power as the market-setting buyer rather than legal coercion.

Comment #8: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/19  at  05:39 PM

No horror stories for my own part, but part of my job entails working on the psychiatric unit of the hospital.  Our clients routinely have anywhere from 3-6 hour waits in our lobby before admission (add an extra 2-6 hours if they have to be medically cleared through the ER).  Mind you, these are people who are usually actively having suicidal thoughts, homicidal thoughts, or are psychotic (hallucinations, delusions, paranoid, etc.), and usually are completely stressed and lacking in sleep.  Thankfully all are able to control themselves well enough, or we would have serious problems.

The reason for the wait?  About 1 hour for the screening and the processing of the person’s history.  The rest is waiting for the insurance company to agree to pay.  Sometimes they don’t, which leaves us with the dilemma of what to do with a person who is potentially dangerous to themselves or others that the insurance company has deemed well enough to manage without treatment.  I had one client who tried THREE TIMES to get help before being accepted.  Her solution was to take a non-lethal overdose and show up in the ER.  What does it say that patients in this country have to attempt suicide in order to get the insurance company to pay?

Comment #9: turbo  on  07/19  at  05:45 PM

I’ve had really good insurance recently, but the problem is that I’ve had to change it a couple times.  And I didn’t even change jobs/schools/states or anything like that.

After I finished college 3 years ago, I had my dad’s health insurance until the end of the calendar year.  I think it was Blue Cross Blue Shield at that point, but had previously been Aetna; my dad is a small business owner and provided his employees insurance.  WHich was nice, except I had stayed in Massachusetts, and as the insurance was in New York, I had to go to NY to see doctors.  That was fine, I just scheduled appointments around holidays when I was visiting my family, and it was nice to know that I had fallen off my bike and broken a leg or something, I could have gone to the emergency room without worrying.

And then after that, being no longer eligible for my dad’s insurance, I took Massachusetts up on its subsidized health insurance for all.  And thank goodness it was available, cause I couldn’t have afforded it otherwise, I don’t think.  I was working for a very small business—less than 5 employees—and part time at a YMCA (therefore not able to get benefits from them).  Since it was subsidized, and the subsidization scaled to your income, I only paid about $110/month for my insurance.  And it covered everything. 

But then this past fall, I was a full-time student and still under 25, so I switched to my mom’s insurance.  She had started working for the police department (as a crossing guard) a couple years prior.  So, she had good insurance with Blue Cross Blue Shield, and her contribution was $0.  It cost neither her nor me to add me to her insurance.  So I switched.  The only problem was that I once again had to take a trip—about 200 miles each way—to NY for appointments, so I was back to scheduling stuff around holidays.  I did have one doctor tell me he couldn’t/wouldn’t help me as I couldn’t make regular trips down.  (He was a jerk overall and I didn’t want to see him again for that, so I wasn’t to sad about this.)

And then in May I turned 25, so was no longer eligible for my mom’s insurance.  I spent June uninsured, mostly due to my lack of promptness in getting my applications in for getting back on Massachusetts insurance.  But nothing back happened then, so that was ok. 

And now I’m back on state-subsidized insurance here in Massachusetts.  For a couple months, at least.  I’m moving to Tennessee in four weeks.  When I change my residency I’ll loose my insurance.  And I don’t have a job yet.  So I’m hoping that (a) I don’t fall off my bike or anything, and (b) I get a benefitted job soon.

Comment #10: rowmyboat  on  07/19  at  06:10 PM

Daily Kos diarist says this story is not accurate.
She had a cyst, not a tumor—definitely not, as Fox News said, brain cancer
<http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/7/19/755113/-Another-Healthcare-Lie,-and-the-Lying-Liar-Thats-Telling-It.>

Comment #11: GHorton  on  07/19  at  06:16 PM

On nice, so basically this story is just more ratfucking.

Naturally. It’s alright to lie for a good cause. As long as the good cause is keeping the those of insufficent breeding poor.

Comment #12: StarStorm  on  07/19  at  06:26 PM

Our most recent healthcare nightmare is here

You know, the Rush listener, the Base, the blue-collar social conservatives who dream of the wealth and upward mobility that the Republicans sell them—until those titans of industry shut the plants down or move them overseas, and leave Joe Lunchbucket high and dry with an empty wallet, no health insurance and a family to feed.

There are 2 kinds of Republicans:  rich people and suckers.

Comment #13: Siobhan  on  07/19  at  06:29 PM

My husband had a job with the local cable council and I was staying home to take care of our two sons, ages three and eighteen months. The three-year-old was diagnosed with leukemia and for a while the insurance from my husband’s business covered us. But his boss took him aside and told him our account was causing the costs of the other payers in the business to go up and in so many words said, “Go find another job.”

We didn’t think that was legal, but we didn’t have the money or presence of mind to fight it,(still caring for our sick son), so my husband had to try to find another job. Of course, no insurance company would pick up my son’s coverage, as it was a pre-existing condition. We had to rely on state emergency care funding to help with the costs. We could never get any insurance company to cover him.

Imagine how we felt; kicked out of a decent job while trying to care for a child with cancer, worried about losing our house while my husband was out of work, me trying to find part time work to ease the burden. I’ll never ever forget those times of despair.

BTW, at least part of the story has a happy ending: my son is now 22 years old and just graduated from college with a degree in journalism.

Comment #14: DonnaH  on  07/19  at  06:38 PM

As a Canadian, I find the concept of “denial of service” positively chilling.  That sounds far far more Big Brother/Kafkaesque than “socialized medicine” ever will, to my ears.

Comment #15: Ranylt  on  07/19  at  06:56 PM

Currently, Delta Dental takes our premiums, and then fucks with our SSN (they’ve reversed mine and my husbands) and fucks with our birthdates so that we don’t show up in the system.  When we try to call them, we can’t get through the voice mail b/c the SSN and birthdays don’t match.

I’ve had to deal with organizations like this, both as an insured and as a health care employee, enough times to know that in many cases it is simply rank incompetence.  Although I wouldn’t put it past these companies to deliberately hire incompetent people to conveniently fuck up customers’ records.

Comment #16: keshmeshi  on  07/19  at  07:15 PM

I’m glad someone mentioned the Big Pharma talking point.  Don’t let it fool you.  Most real pharmaceutical R&D;is funded/conducted by government, universities, and non-profits.  Big Pharma reaps the rewards.

Comment #17: keshmeshi  on  07/19  at  07:17 PM

Remember, emergency rooms are supposed to do triage…

A few years back, I had a minor accident while cooking, I sliced off a part of my left index finger.  The knife nicked an artery, so I had a minor gusher.  Suffice to say, I was “seen” by a doctor moments after walking into the emergency room…  Who quickly saw it wasn’t life threatening, and directed me to the checkin window, and sent a janitor with a mop to follow me.

But I’ve had some issues with insurance and pharma; I had acid reflux and the insurance companies kept telling me I could no longer take a prescription.  They’d recommend something over the counter.  That finally ended a few years back when an endoscopy showed my esophagus had nearly burned off of my stomach.

The latest is daft, though.  I changed jobs, so I tried to change the prescription by mail for the acid reflux medicine; the new insurance, Aetna, said they can’t take a prescription from another pharmacy, only a new prescription after a doctor’s visit.  So, for me, it is time off work, a co-pay, and the hassle.  For my doctor, it is a pointless office visit.  For the system, it is a waste of time…  Oh. I have to get a one month prescription filled locally now, too.

Support Senator Wyden’s reform proposal, because the bill as reported from the House committees will not change employer-provided health care for the vast majority of people, we’ll be stuck in the same for-profit insurance company hell.  (Oh, and the bill doesn’t help as much as it could for out of pocket.  If you make 4 times the Federal poverty level—$45k for a single person, $88k for a family of four—you get no assistance on premiums, that can be up to 11% of your gross income, and you can have out of pocket expenses of $5k for a single person, and $10k for a family.  That means a family of four with an income of $88k could end up spending $19,200 on their medical bills each year with no assistance.)

Comment #18: James  on  07/19  at  07:31 PM

I live in the UK, and hearing Americans talk about health care and insurance always terrifies me.  The idea that when you get sick you have to worry not only about getting well, but also about whether it is covered and how much it will cost if not just seems awful!

Comment #19: ashke50  on  07/19  at  07:44 PM

I had a feeling that the woman’s condition was actually NOT cancer.

My medical care has gotten better with Kaiser Permanente. Which had it’s horror stories some years ago, but I think they’ve gotten past that. The thing is, they ARE a not-for-profit, a co-op of sorts where the point is to pay the salaries and do good medical care. I’ve had doctors give me drop-in “appointments” for a quickie follow-up visit so I don’t have to shell out a co-pay. I’ve had doctors see me and my husband in the same visit, also saving us money. But the price of the insurance is astounding, about 2/3rds of my rent, and I live in a high-cost area. Oh, and COBRA doesn’t give you a discount. In fact, you pay more because you pay for the company that is handling your COBRA payments (not government, it’s farmed out) to “administrate”. But it does make it possible to get coverage. Most insurers would simply reject us due to our health issues.

I’d rather have single payer, overall.

Comment #20: Samantha Vimes  on  07/19  at  07:57 PM

My health insurance is through my employer-run not for profit HMO.  It is AWESOME.  I pay exactly $0.  Prescriptions are a $5 or $10 co-pay (not on any meds, so I’m not sure of the exact cost, but it’s no more than $10).  No deductible.  If I get sick, I see the doctor—it is that simple.  I am very, very lucky.

Comment #21: LauraB  on  07/19  at  09:22 PM

So much is so badly broken in the US. And first on the list is the political system, which makes it impossible to fix any of the other problems. It’s difficult not to despair for our future.

Comment #22: Steve LaBonne  on  07/19  at  09:33 PM

And first on the list is the political system, which makes it impossible to fix any of the other problems.

I’ve seen this book around,which might be of interest to people.  Yet to read it though.

Comment #23: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/19  at  09:43 PM

Oh. I can rant. My husband just got out of the hospital after a four day stay where he was diagnosed with a wicked case of Crohn’s disease.

On the night we went to the ER (he was vomiting heavily and dehydrated to the point of hallucinating), we waited for an hour after triage to be given a room. There were three patients ahead of us—a baby with a fever, a little boy who’d been punched by his mama’s boyfriend in the ear!, and a sullen teenager who complained of having a stomach ache, but who wasn’t in enough pain to not get up and walk around texting. (I was milling around with a cup of coffee when they released her. She wasn’t pregnant. It wasn’t appendicitis. As the doctor said, “[she] just needed to poop. Get a little more fiber in your diet.”)

We were in the room for another hour before the nurse came in to hang an IV bag, and we experienced hour waits between check-ins by the nurse (and eventually the doctor). It was fine care, and when my husband became more and more ill, they’d come in a jiffy. I’m not complaining.

Eventually, the attending decided he was too ill and moved him into the ICU until his fever could come down. After several hours in the ICU, he was moved by ambulance to the larger hospital downtown where a surgeon and a GI could argue over the next course of treatment. He was spared surgery, but we were there for three more nights. He went through a series of tests, followed by very long stretches of waiting, but I never felt that we received anything less than top-notch care.

But now the statements have come pouring in, and we could owe as much as $20k after his insurance (which is offered by the hospital in question) completes their runaround.

In the interim, he was put on a steroid which runs $800 a month without insurance (his covers this for a fifty dollar copay, thank every deity ever).  He’s had his follow-up visit canceled twice before getting in for a “quickie” appointment three weeks after the initial admission (so we might be outside the window for follow-up by the insurance’s rules). His next appointment for the specialist is in six weeks.

God help us if he loses his job. Crohn’s will automatically stricken him from any insurance roll, and I don’t know where we’ll be.

Actually, I know where we’ll be: begging Britain to take us in.

Comment #24: Ticky  on  07/19  at  09:43 PM

I don’t have any horror stories of my own, but I could share 24… the stories of the 20 my church has raised money for the past 7 years and the 4 whom we will help next Sunday. And they’re people who live in a fairly affluent suburb… and the vast majority have private health insurance!
1) She had lupus, he is a social worker (low pay) and his 80/20 coverage left them with whopping bills for her medications… so much so that they thought of divorce sho she could get Medicaid;
2). He had a kidney transplant (congenital condition). He and she worked for a grocery store. They almost lost their home to foreclosure;
3). She (single mother) had amyloidosis and had to go to Sloan-Kettering for stem cell replacement, which though successful was out-of-network. Even after S-K wrote off a large part, she still owed an enormous bill;
4). He needed a kidney/pancreas transplant, she worked for a hospital. 80/20 left them with $650/month out-of-pocket for meds;
5). She had a kidney transplant (congential condition), he worked as police officer (their contract shoved them into an HMO). Need I say more;
6). She had lupus and he had cancer. His retirement health insurance was 80/20. $800/month meds;
7). She had mitochondrial disease. Her mom had to quit work to care for her;
8). He had cancer, she had a massive stroke. They only had basic Medicare coverage leaving them with $7500 in bills and no way to pay;
9). He needed a liver transplant after getting hep C doing volunteer EMT and had to go on disability. She was a postal worker. 80/20 left $800/month bills;
10). She was born preemie with multiple problems. Their insurance didn’t begin to cover her bills;
11). He free-lanced in IT and she quit when she was near term. They had no coverage and went with a midwife. The birth went sour and the baby ended up in NICU for months. The hospital forgave all but $50K of the bill;
12). His parents both worked, but he had cancer and multiple hospitalizations. 80/20 left them deep in debt and behind in their mortgage;
13). He had MS, she worked for a hospital. 80/20. Same story;
14). He had TTP, a rare blood disorder and had lost his job and insurance a month before. A month in ICU left him penniless;
15). He had a stroke, lived alone, lost his job and insurance and subsisted on disability;
16). She (a single mom) had stage 4 breast cancer. Medicaid covered her med bills, but her loss of employment meant she couldn’t afford repairs for her house and car. Floated laons through credit cards and owed $15K;
17). He (single man) had undergone amputations due to juvenile diabetes. Lived in a dump but the rent consumed his disability income;
18). She (single woman)had a rare cancer and lost her job (and health insurance). While waiting for disability, she racked up huge medical bills… and lost her life;
19). She (single woman) had bi-polar disorder and had trouble holding a job. Piled up bills even though she lived in a cheap apartment and lived as thriftily as she could;
20). She (a single mom) had depression and arthritis. Lost her job and insurance. While waiting for disability, she piled up credit card bills to pay day-to-day expenses.
21). He died awaiting a liver transplant, but left his wife and children with a huge hospital bill. Good old 80/20!
22). She (single mom) has ataxia. She is on disability, but is $10K in debt;
23). His parents both worked, but he was born with multiple congenital problems. After 80/20 worked its magic, they still owe $25k;
24). He has a rare form of cancer and is on disability. She works as a home health aide. They put his medical bills on credit cards, while they navigated the system until he was diagnosed. Voila: $25K in the hole and a car that’s held together with gum and bailing wire.

I do have one good medical story to share. I was in Cancun (courtesy of the inlaws) and had a bad reaction to penicillin (for an ear infection I got back home). In the middle of the night I had hives the size of softballs on my butt. Called the front desk, who called a local doc. She came to my room within a half an hour. Gave my injections of antihistamine and cortisone. Instant relief. Went to her office the next morning and got another shot of cortisone. Was given a scrip for topical cortisone. Total bill - $205!

Comment #25: revrick  on  07/19  at  09:52 PM

I’ve been lucky: my dad’s insurance has netted my family good, high-quality care since before I was born.

He retired about a month ago, and I (24 and in good health), am now putting about $150 a month into the coffers of Blue Cross Blue Shield.

It has a deductible of $4000.  So, if I read things right, I’m covered solely for disastrous events, for two grand a year if nothing bad happens and six grand a year if something bad does happen.  I have no idea whether they’ll give me trouble if I actually need major treatment, and with any luck I’ll never find out.

My mother also lost her coverage with my dad’s retirement, as did my brother (who graduated about the same time the economy went to shit, and can’t find a job).  Brother’s premium is, I assume, about the same as mine; my mom’s is closer to $400, and she’s several years away from qualifying for Medicare.

So right at the point where the family’s income has dropped dramatically, we’re out about seven hundred a month in health-care premiums for, one presumes, the same level of care.  Not what I’d call ideal, and yet it could be soundly worse.

Comment #26: Kyra  on  07/19  at  10:18 PM

Let’s see, when my spouse had just given birth to a desperately ill preemie and was still seriously sick herself, the insurance company told the hospital that our coverage had been canceled for nonpayment because, after receiving the check and cashing it, the company had misrouted the money internally. Then there was the, uh, interesting bit about adding a new name (the kid) to the policy, and then there was “We won’t pay for the kid to be transferred to a hospital closer to home, which would be in-network and thus save us money, and where both of you could go back to work and earn money to pay premiums, because he’s not sick enough to require a transfer.”

We were incredibly lucky (and it speaks incredibly badly for the US health care system) that the hospital in question had a fulltime social worker who did nothing but help patients with insurance screwups. She spent several days solid working on our case, and emerged mostly shaking her head in disbelief. Without that help, we would have been looking at a bill about the size of our house. As it was, it was less than the cost of a new car…

Comment #27: paul  on  07/19  at  10:39 PM

turbo:

The reason for the wait?  About 1 hour for the screening and the processing of the person’s history.  The rest is waiting for the insurance company to agree to pay.  Sometimes they don’t, which leaves us with the dilemma of what to do with a person who is potentially dangerous to themselves or others that the insurance company has deemed well enough to manage without treatment.

Speaking from personal Canadian experience (though I don’t entirely remember this part) this kind of outrageous dithering doesn’t tend to happen very much if at all, at least in Ontario. It was my experience that the cops showed up, then the paramedics, and then they and the doctors and nurses got to do their damn jobs without interference or molestation by a bunch of highway robbers. I also wasn’t loosed onto the street because the insurance company (OHIP, in my case) decided I should have been able to diagnose myself with major depression before I took the pills. It’s been my understanding that this has happened to people in the United States, especially the poor/POC/difficult or combative (which I was in the ER). Also, OHIP pays for my semi-useless therapy, which has somewhat prevented me from making bad decisions again. I also understand that getting insurance to pay for CBT is like getting your cats to jump in the bath and later themselves in shampoo:

Short and sweet version: even dead-man-walking OHIP coverage is 3 heads and above better than US “health” “insurance”.

Comment #28: limes  on  07/19  at  10:44 PM

Even when US insurance “works”, it’s almost impossible to describe the enormous drain of energy for anyone who’s gotten caught in its toils. “Yeah, we told you that we wouldn’t re-apply your deductible to that medical equipment just because the payments for purchase spanned the end of the year. Sure, you relied on that promise when you payed for it in installments instead of a lump sum. We lied. Wanna sue us?”

Every time you go to the doctor there’s that scary period of wondering whether the insurance company is going to screw you, how much it’s going to be this time, which prescriptions they’ll randomly decide not to cover. The whole process just sucks the life out of people who should be spending their time getting healthy, not dreading the incoming mail.

Comment #29: paul  on  07/19  at  11:02 PM

I was surprised to read about the Mayo Clinic’s involvement on the anti-universal health care side.  In the recent New Yorker article “The Cost Conundrum” that’s been getting a lot of play, the Mayo Clinic is held up as a positive example of a medical organization that puts patients before profits and tries to contain costs.

The link is here:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande

Comment #30: Monala  on  07/19  at  11:03 PM

Her story is true.

Well, technically yes, but I guess you can say there are shades of truth. Did she seek treatment in the US after being unhappy with the care in the US, yes.  But besides that she’s a goddamn fucking liar.

Lie #1: No second opinions.
I have heard her repeat more than once that no one is allowed to get second opinions in Canadian healthcare. Actually have no idea how to approach that one, other than the fact that she (or someone feeding her lines) thought it sounded really good.  However it’s ridiculous, you are free to seek a second, a third or 50 thousand extra opinions.

Lie #2: That she HAD to go to the states to get an MRI.
The most important part of this lie is perpetuating the myth that there is no such thing as private healthcare in Canada. Which is false.  There are privately operated and privately funded clinics as well as privately operated, publicly funded clinics.  The best part of this one is that she is apparently from Toronto, I could personally hand her the numbers and addresses of PRIVATE MRI clinics located right here in this city.  If she wanted to pay the money to get “faster” service, she could have done so, right in Canada.

And now apparently she has lied about her condition, a cyst which has rapidly changed in diagnosis to “brain cancer.”

With those three MAJOR lies how can I possibly believe her accounts on her wait times and the necessities of her follow up surgeries?  Especially when at that time she was seeking treatment my father-in-law actually was dying of cancer in the same city and had not one single delay in his care.

I think this is more of a case where she wanted what she thought was the best care available and was willing to pay.  And hey I can’t really disagree with her there.  My father frequently works for the Mayo Clinic, they are one of the best at what they do.  If I was diagnosed with something serious I would be tempted to go there too if I had the money.  That’s not really compelling enough I suppose though to scare Americans out of any type of government health insurance.

PS:  MRI wait times must have really gone down in Toronto over the past four years as well because I’ve never heard of anyone waiting longer than two and a half weeks for non-emergency procedures.

Comment #31: hypatia  on  07/19  at  11:20 PM

I have several friends in Canada—one who was in Ontario and the other in British Columbia.  The one in Ontario has chronic eye problems yet she has never complained about her health care. The one in BC has had cancer and has had minor complaints about her care, but NOT about wait times for her surgery or other treatment.  Both people have talked about the fact that health care spending is decided on at the PROVINCE level and each province acts differently.  Some things, like hospital staffing, etc. could be better but the problem is the funding level by the provincial government and the political will to implement the national promises of health care.

Comment #32: PurpleGirl  on  07/20  at  12:10 AM

Every time you go to the doctor there’s that scary period of wondering whether the insurance company is going to screw you, how much it’s going to be this time, which prescriptions they’ll randomly decide not to cover.

Alternatively, you have the Kafkaesque process of trying to get the phone droid to give a yes/no answer on whether a procedure will be covered, realise that they won’t tell you either way, and you cancel the appointment because the potential costs will send you underwater.

Comment #33: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/20  at  01:21 AM

Pam, please correct the info about Holmes: there’s not a whit of truth left in her story (which has changed and morphed over time) or that ad—she’s lying two ways to Sunday about her experience with Canadian health care:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/7/19/755113/-Another-Healthcare-Lie,-and-the-Lying-Liar-Thats-Telling-It

Comment #34: judybrowni  on  07/20  at  01:32 AM

i have more *personal* horror stories than i can recount. my favorite, though - i was at Children’s Hospital at Stanford for 6 weeks when i was 9. my step-father had some insurance; by the divorce agreement, my dad was responsible for all my medical. but because there was health insurance that would theoretically cover me, CHAMPUS (ya know, what military people and their dependents have) was refusing to pay. they wouldn’t even pay what step-father’s insurance wouldn’t pay, which they were *legally* obligated (by MILITARY code, too!) to pay all of my care. and because CHStanford wanted money *NOW*, they contracted with my mother-
to have me do a commercial with Marie Osmand.
don’t get me wrong, she was *awesome*, and didn’t seem to mind that i had no clue who she was. but still - i *had* to do a 90 second commercial in order to continue receiving the treatment i needed - what the hell happens to the other 99.99999999999% of kids who aren’t lucky enough to have a commercial being shot at that time?

currently, i have a personal grrr story, and an OMFG WTF story -
the “grrr” is my pain managment doctor has new staff. who are incapable of filling out forms properly. and who refuse to admit they are filling them out incorrectly. at this moment, the DOCTOR owes *ME* over $400 in wrongfully billed but i had to pay anyway in order to see him - he’s pissed, he’s told staff he will *fire* them if they won’t re-do the paperwork (first thing wrong - they listed the WRONG TaxID number. i mean, it doesn’t even have the correct number of numbers in it, and does not resemble the actual TaxID number in any way). and despite the fact that they WILL BE FUCKING FIRED FOR WILLFUL REFUSUAL TO DO THEIR JOBS if they don’t fix it - they are refusing to fix it. and i don’t $85 to pay for my next visit.

the OMFG WTF - my sister’s doctor thinks she has a perforated intestine. she is having massive internal bleeding. my sister should be IN THE HOSPITAL, if for no other reason than she needs a fucking blood transfusion.
this started on 30JUN - that is the day her doctor said “i think you have a perforated intestine”. she IS STILL WAITING TO SEE A SPECIALIST - in the meantime, she has been in the ER over a dozen fucking times in the past 3 weeks, had recieved i don’t even know how much saline and 7 units of platlets, 4 of whole blood - and is STILL not hospitalized and STILL has not been in to see a specialist. she IS GOING TO FUCKING DIE if something isn’t DONE NOW.
but her husband works for a hospital. and the insurance doesn’t consider this an “emergency” and won’t pay for her to be hospitalized until/unless it *is* an ER (how the fuck is it NOT?!) or a specialist decides to do a surgery.
then again - this is the hospital that tried to refuse to cover her getting a hysterectomy when she had uterine cancer - because a hysterectomy is “birth control” and it’s a catholic fucking hospital. don’t know why anything surprises me anymore.

Comment #35: denelian  on  07/20  at  02:06 AM

I work with kids who have a genetic disorder. They will be in and out of the hospital their entire lives, have extremely expensive medications and treatments. They have two choices when they are teenagers: go to college to get a great job with good benefits which has generous sick days OR go on Medicaid. They all want to work. Most of them won’t be able to get a degree to get that dream job (sometimes because their families have been beggared by the cost of their care)... so they can’t work because they can’t ever make too much money because they’ll lose their Medicaid.

They WANT to work and be contributing citizens and the government will not allow them to do so. This is ridiculous.

Comment #36: Alix  on  07/20  at  03:31 AM

About 10 years ago my friend needed emergency gall bladder surgery. Her bill for the surgery and a single night at the hospital came to $30,000. Fortunately we both worked for a large company with a decent health care plan, and although the insurance company involved dragged out the repayments for as long as they could, they eventually ponied up.

A few months later we were on vacation in Edinburgh, Scotland, when I required emergency hip surgery and a three-day hospital stay. The total bill for all of this came to $3000. And even though I had just saved them tens of thousands of dollars by breaking my hip in Scotland instead of America, the insurance company still dicked around about paying the bill—pretending to have “concerns” about the fact that the bill was in pounds instead of dollars, pretending they couldn’t understand the forms that all used the European day/month/year notation rather than the American month/day/year, pretending that they had no record that we had made an international phone call from the emergency room to get permission for the surgery. I was getting overseas calls from bill collectors for almost a year before the insurance company sent me the money. That was pretty much all it took to make me a single-payer fan.

Comment #37: sophronia  on  07/20  at  06:12 AM

I know you guys already know this, but it is worth pointing out that the Canadian and the UK systems aren’t the only two types of universal coverage.  Look at France, for example, for Option C.  Or Germany.  Or Australia, or New Zealand, if you want to keep things in the English-speaking world.

Each of them have their individual problems/issues, but they are all relatively mature systems, set up at a time when no one really knew how they were going to turn out, but took the leap of faith anyway.  America now has the unique opportunity as a rich country to take the lessons from other systems and make the best choice.  You don’t have to use Canada, or the UK, or France, or Australia as your template - you can pick the best of everything!  Good luck to you.

Comment #38: Katherine  on  07/20  at  06:29 AM

Kaiser Permanente denied me continued coverage at the age of 23 (previously through my parents), because of:
(1) A chemical dependency problem (that I went through treatment for, provided by Kaiser, and successfully completed with no further recurrence to date).
(2) Undiagnosed back pain.

I suppose I can see their point in the first one. You know, once a college student has abused drugs and gone back to school and completed a degree, obviously they’re just waiting for a chance to backslide.  But I find it hilarious (in that sick, morbid way) that they cited an undiagnosed condition in denying me treatment.  I guess the claims approval person had the authority to diagnose a medical condition (does back pain even qualify?).  I suppose I could have fought it, but I went back to grad school and got coverage through the university.

Suppose the joke is sort of on them, though, since they now have to cover me through my partner’s employer-based health insurance.  I say sort of because:
(1) they did manage to avoid covering me for several year, and
(2) their domestic partner coverage is surprisingly generous and easy to get.  Kudos, I think.

And that’s my random story.

Comment #39: Signals and Systems  on  07/20  at  06:59 AM

And as a random side note, Kaiser in California doesn’t require you to be differently-gendered to get DP status.  All you have to do is cohabit, declare yourself legally competent to sign a document, share “some responsibility” for household maintenance (not even financial), and not be doing this with more than one person every six months.

Bizarrely lenient, given some of their other policies.

Comment #40: Signals and Systems  on  07/20  at  07:01 AM

I had to buy a single health care policy for my daughter once she could no longer be covered under my employer’s health care plan. At first the options and pricing looked good until the insurance companies ruled she had a preexisting condition, ADHD, for which she was taking medication. That preexisting condition essentially limited her health care options to a high deductable, catastrophic coverage plan with a monthly rate close to what you would pay for a family plan. Why a common condition like ADHD would cause insurance companies to place my daughter in a high-risk category was never explained.

Comment #41: BobbyV  on  07/20  at  07:52 AM

3rd was in labor, and I was taken up to L&D;10 minutes after my arrival, but didn’t see a doctor for 6 hours because they don’t have OBs on staff overnight.

Wow.  I wouldn’t have seen my doctor at all then, since my labors were short: shortest being 3 hours total from first twinge to delivery.

keshmeshi, it was deliberate fucking.  Originally, we saw the dentist and were covered.  But since we’d been without dental coverage for 8 years, my husband’s teeth were really messed up (I have a low placque producing mouth, but still had a chipped tooth).  After the first bills were paid, we started being rejected as not members of the program.  When I called to ask what was going on, I couldn’t get through the voice mail, until I put in my birthdate and my husband’s SSN.

The numbers were correct, until we needed them to cover more than routine checkups.  Then suddenly our SSNs were reversed.  I faxed them many many times with the correct info before they corrected it.

Then I was rejected again b/c they changed my birthday to March.

Had the problem always been there, I would agree it could just be incompetence.  The fact that our info “changed” when it became inconvenient to pay is just too much to believe.

While I’m horrified Rod Blagojevich, my former governor, tried to sell Obama’s senate seat, I would VOTE FOR HIM AGAIN.  He was a good governor.  He provided health care for all children in Illinois on a sliding scale, so even if you were employed, your kids could see a doctor.

My husband was laid off twice, and AllKids is how my children received immunizations.  Judy Baar Topinka, his opponent, wanted to balance the budget by cutting kids off.  WTF?  Given that option, I’d vote for Blago all over again.

Comment #42: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/20  at  09:09 AM

If your insurance is good it can only get worse.  We cannot afford continued double-digit increases in health care costs.

Comment #43: Magis  on  07/20  at  09:46 AM

The high cost of health care is also due to doctors and hospitals covering their butts with extra unnecessary tests to avoid lawsuits, … doctors have to carry high liability insurance because we’re such a litigious society…

I’m going to take minor issue with this point.

The amount of money health care providers (and everyone else) has to spend on liability insurance, and the fear that doctors and hospitals have about being sued for “missing something” isn’t because we’re a litigious society.  It’s because we’re a society that does not provide universal health care, and does not provide adequate services and support for people who are injured or disabled.

If you want to pay for the care you need, the fact is, in the US you often have to sue, and hope the person responsible for your injury is either rich or well insured. 

If your doctor makes a mistake, or you’re hit by a car, or your hospital misses something, you don’t sue because it is fun.  You sue because you’re facing bills – for treatment for your injury, for the costs of living while you’re unable to work while trying to recover, for long term care if you don’t recover completely, for long term living expenses if you can’t go back to work. 

And your health insurance company is telling you that none of this is covered, because it is over their limits, or because it isn’t a service listed as covered in your policy, or because it is an injury where someone is to blame, and legally that person is responsible for paying for the injuries they caused, so health insurance company isn’t going to pay.

Universal health care ought to pay the bills for treatment of your injuries, and for long term care.

Universal social services for the injured and disabled ought to cover the expenses for living while you’re trying to recover, and if you can’t go back to work.

Fix those two things, and we’ll no longer have a litigious society.  Because we don’t have a litigious society now, we have a society where people are desperate, and have no way to meet their basic human survival needs other than suing. 

And in having liability insurance, a doctors aren’t merely “covering their butt” because they’re afraid that they will be sued and have to pay out of pocket. They’re also making sure that, if they should (Five Gods forbid) make a mistake, the patients they care for will receive the care they need to recover and survive, something that anyone ought to be concerned about – that if we accidentally hurt someone, we can make it right.  But a better way to do this would be to make a society that cares for people who are hurt, rather than relying on a patchwork of insurance and lawsuits.

Comment #44: Ursula L  on  07/20  at  09:58 AM

I was diagnosed with breast cancer three years ago at age 38. I had no family history and had a clean mammogram at age 35. I work for the state and unless health care reform comes in I will always work for the state because no small business can afford to hire me. I have looked into health insurance on my own and the only one that would cover me would cost $1,400 dollars per month with a 50/50 co-pay and a 5,000 deductible.

You can’t save for a catastrophic health situation, no one plans on it and certainly no one in their 30’s. Something has to be done and it has to be done now.

Kate @ www.aftercancernowwhat.com

Comment #45: aftercancer  on  07/20  at  10:46 AM

Universal health care will not cost us more money.  Every other Western country has universal health care.  And yet they pay less per person and get more.  The reason our health care is so expensive is because insurance companies spend so much money trying not to pay for claims. 

Several years ago, I had severe heart palpitations.  My doctor sent me to a specialist, and I got in within a week.  I remember being amazed by this because I never been able to see any specialist in less than 6 weeks ever before.  My doctor noticed my shock and explained that it’s different when you’re dealing with someone that could be more serious.  Anyway, my doctor wrote a referral.  I had ultrasound done on my heart.  A few weeks later, I got a bill because they referral only specified the ultrasound, and not the doctor actually looking at the results of the test!  So they wanted me to to pay for that part of it.  I worked it out with my doctor and eventually we worked it out and the insurance company paid for it. 

Imagine how much money they wasted in trying to deny that claim.  They had to pay the salaries of all the people who processed it.  My doctor had to pay more salaries for administrative costs, which get factored into the price of visits.  The insurance companies spend so much money just trying not to spend money (and unfortunately, they often succeed).  The end result is that insurance companies end up saving a little bit of money, at the expense of their customers.

Comment #46: bananacat  on  07/20  at  11:11 AM

Any arguments I’ve ever heard against universal health care are problems that already exist under our current system!

I’ve heard people say they don’t want the government to come between you and your doctor.  Well, insurance companies already come between my and my doctor, and they do it much worse than any politician would.  At least if politicians acted so badly, they could be voted out of office (theoretically).

I’ve heard people complain about long waits to see specialists.  Well, I have never had less than 6 weeks to wait for specialists, except one time when there was a possibility that there was something wrong with my heart.  I had excellent insurance throughout college because I was covered under my mom’s plan and she was a state employee, and I still had to wait a minimum of 6 weeks.  And of course, this doesn’t take into account all the people who have to wait because they simply can’t afford it.

Then some people will complain about “rationing” of health care.  Well, that already happens too!  Even for the lucky people who have coverage through their work or that can afford to buy it on their own, they can still get kicked off simply for costing too much, being too sick, or having a pre-existing condition.  Many people don’t get coverage from an employer until they have worked there for 90 days.  This doesn’t even take into account the rationing that happens when people simply can’t afford health care.

Then people act like it will be too expensive.  But in every other Western country, health care costs less than it does here, and it provides more.

When people explain the horrors of universal health care, it actually sounds like they are describing exactly what we have already.  It really can’t get any worse than it is now.  Sometimes I wonder if people who are so against universal health care are naive or just lying.  It’s probably a combination of both.

The bottom line is that if so many other countries can spend less and provide more, we can do it too, but not by doing the opposite of what they do.

Comment #47: bananacat  on  07/20  at  11:21 AM

The local teaching hospital that is the designated charity care spot has ER waiting room times that are so consistently long they have a system in place where everyone gets re-triaged every 2 hours. I waited for nine hours with a dislocated elbow before receiving pain medication and a bed, then another hour before seeing a doctor. I was mis-triaged. 4 times. I showed up in the ER again a week later because of dangerous swelling in my arm and hand (I’d left a message at the ortho clinic 4 hours earlier, had not heard back and was too worried to wait longer). That time, they were worried about clots so I had a bed within 45 minutes of arrival. (Also, one of the nurses recognized me from the week before and told me how bad she felt for assuming my elbow was merely sprained when she triaged me). The care I have received at this hospital has been good, it’s just taken a long ass time to get.

Also, thanks to my uninsured status, low income, and shitty credit score, I qualified for a discount on services. Which, as I responded to the lady in the billing department when she told me about the discount, was the best pain killer yet. Because it’s not enough to be in excruciating pain with everyone trying to move your arm around in ways that make you scream. And it’s not enough to be wondering how you’re going to get around or make it to work and do your job. The calm certainty of your future bankruptcy filing is what perfects the ER experience.

Comment #48: vladimir  on  07/20  at  11:30 AM

I had one client who tried THREE TIMES to get help before being accepted.  Her solution was to take a non-lethal overdose and show up in the ER.  What does it say that patients in this country have to attempt suicide in order to get the insurance company to pay?

This is just terrible!  I know it’s not a competition, but I think this is the worst story I’ve heard.  Rather than just letting people suffer and die, someone was actually forced to harm herself to get help!  I think part of this is also due to our society’s denial of mental illness as being “real”.  I am worried about universal health care being too slack on mental health issues, but it still can’t get any worse than what it already is.

Comment #49: bananacat  on  07/20  at  11:39 AM

The year that my youngest sister was born my father fondly recalls how comfortable he got with hospitals. He was the only one who managed to keep away from an overnight stay that year. It started when an 8 year old me was hospitalized for acute appendicitus (2 week stay in hospital, 2 more weeks before I could go back to school), then my older sister had her tonsils out, but peaked a fever and was taken back in for observation overnight, my little sister had terrible migranes (at age 5, poor thing!) and was taken in for an MRI and observation, I think she ended up staying two nights, and my mother went in to have my baby sister, both of them staying two days since she was a little premature.

And that is the year that my dad brings up when talking about healthcare to his American friends… see my dad’s Canadian and at that point we were living in Toronto, and the cost of all of those hospital visits for a family of 6? Dad’s answer “a ridiculous amount of ice cream”

So can anyone do the math for me? What would it cost in the current American system for:

one emergency surgery and two weeks of monitoring and recovery for an 8 year old
one standard outpatient tonsilectomy with complications leading to an overnight stay
one MRI and overnight observation for a young child
a planned induction, delivery and two night stay for a mother and a preemie

And is there any way that a working class (an accountant and a teacher) couple could afford it?

Comment #50: kodiak  on  07/20  at  12:11 PM

kodiak, first of all, I doubt the eight y/o would qualify for *2 weeks* of monitoring.  Maybe 2-4 days.
The tonsilectomy would be sent home and then have to return later for even worse complications.
Planned induction/delivery is a 24 hour stay, and that’s only b/c Congress forced the insurance agencies to stop drive-through deliveries.  The preemie can stay, the mom has to leave.

Pregnancy through delivery through my OBs is $~5000, if you are uninsured or have the wrong kind of insurance.  You pay up front at the second prenatal visit.  The hospital for routine services will cost~$10K, much more for PICU.

I could go on, but no, your working class couple would have to throw themselves on the mercy of the hospital and might still have to declare bankruptcy.

B/c America is just the bestest place in the whole wide world!

Comment #51: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/20  at  12:27 PM

My medical care has gotten better with Kaiser Permanente. Which had it’s horror stories some years ago, but I think they’ve gotten past that.

It depends on where you are, even within California, because Kaiser Northern California and Kaiser Southern California are two different organizations.  Northern California is where they seemed to have most of the worst problems, including a nasty kidney transplant scandal a couple of years ago.  I liked my Kaiser So Cal, but ended up leaving and signing up with Cigna instead because their formulary was way too restrictive and they wouldn’t cover my rosacea medicine even when my doctor documented that the stuff they wanted me to use actually makes my rosacea worse, so I was having to pay out-of-pocket for that.

(Another California tip:  Costco has by far the cheapest prescription prices if you have to pay out of pocket and California law requires them to dispense to you even if you’re not a member.)

Comment #52: Mnemosyne  on  07/20  at  12:28 PM

Horror stories, eh? I have a few.

Actually, I don’t, as I am lucky enough to A) have Mississippi’s state insurance plan (it’s actually pretty good) and B) have never (yet) been ill. When I see what my family has gone through I am so grateful for my good luck.

Let’s start, shall we?

Here’s the most recent story. My baby cousin (about 2 1/2 yrs old) fell out of bed one morning. He complained of pain in his wrist. His mom took him to the ER. They were there

Comment #53: ErisDiscordia  on  07/20  at  12:29 PM

Oh, and some of the best care I’ve gotten?  When I got injured at work and went through the worker’s comp system here in California.  I always got prompt service and appointments and they sent me to a very good surgeon who put a new ligament in my knee.  My only complaint was that (IMO) they skimped on my physical therapy, but I think everyone who needs physical therapy complains about that.  I even got a knee brace, and all paid for by the state insurance fund that we all pay into.

Comment #54: Mnemosyne  on  07/20  at  12:32 PM

Ursula L, exactly. My family’s been the target of nonmedical frivolous lawsuits twice, and in both cases while I resented the hell out of the plaintiffs for dragging us all to court over bullshit (in one case a car ran a red light and into my mother’s car and then sued her for damages) in both cases the plaintiffs were fairly desperate and trying everything that might keep them afloat, and in the most recent they’re about to lose their house (over a nonmedical situation that has nothing to do with the fender-bender, but -). Our car insurance is likely to settle out of court to avoid hassle, which means that they are likely to get a nice little payment that might keep them out of foreclosure.

I am as annoyed by this as any right-wing talk show host, but also, frivolous lawsuits should not be our country’s social safety net, and apparently they are.

Incidentally, my mother received treatment at the Mayo Clinic that made the difference between being permanently bedridden and in pain and being in essentially perfect health and able to work. It was not a treatment she could have received at any other hospital in the world at present. Do not think I am not grateful to the Mayo Clinic.

She does get to spend the next couple of years arguing with her insurance company about every single line item from the procedure, though. Even with insurance, we came pretty close to losing the house - if we hadn’t had insurance, we would have fallen really, really hard.

Comment #55: purpleshoes  on  07/20  at  01:14 PM

Sorry about the double post, the first one got eaten.

Comment #56: ErisDiscordia  on  07/20  at  01:16 PM

What Vladimir says in his second paragraph points directly to the fundamental question: do Americans want to wait 8 hours in emergency and have to sell their car afterwards to pay for it?  Or wait 8 hours and walk out without opening their goddamned wallet?  A small tax hike makes that kind of care and personal liberty absolutely worth it, for some.

And truly, though I waited in ER 8 hours one time in Canada, the few other times I’ve been for myself or with another person were less-than-hour waits, and twice we were walked into the (free) doctor in under 15 minutes (for sinus infections—not exactly triage priority).  Moreover, I can call my GP’s office when they open at 8am and have a (free) appointment/treatment before noon same day, for anything from flu symptoms to a plugged ear—again, not terribly serious.  This has always been the case, despite my doctor (like every other) being incredibly busy.

Comment #57: Ranylt  on  07/20  at  01:21 PM

As a Briton I listen to these stories in horror. Who could possibly tolerate such a regime? Here the consensus on health care is so widespread that it would be political suicide to trash the health system. Though of course that hasn’t stopped the Conservatives angling to privatize it as much as possible or the Daily Mail-reading classes from taking out private insurance so that they can can avoid sharing public wards with the schwartzers.

It’s interesting that nations such as Britain and Canada regard the founding fathers of their health systems with reverence but there are so few US pols willing to grasp the ring and ensure their place in posterity.

Comment #58: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  07/20  at  01:44 PM

Purpleshoes:

The problem isn’t merely that frivolous lawsuits are our country’s safety net.

The problem is that non-frivolous lawsuits are our country’s safety net.

And the right-wingers try to label all lawsuits as frivolous, and blame the problem of lawsuits on the selfishness of the people injured, rather than on the problems created by a system that allows you no way to pay for care except via lawsuit. 

Complaining about a “litigious society” is repeating the right-wing talking points, and letting them frame the problem as one of selfish poor people who want care, rather than a broken system that doesn’t provide affordable care when needed.

Comment #59: Ursula L  on  07/20  at  02:03 PM

Another point about Holmes: how many of you with health insurance have Mayo Clinic on your “in-network” list?

As it is, she’s suing her province to pay for her medical bills in the US. Now, Canadian provinces will reimburse for care in the US if there’s no

It’s interesting that nations such as Britain and Canada regard the founding fathers of their health systems with reverence but there are so few US pols willing to grasp the ring and ensure their place in posterity.

True, that. Some of it’s structural: there’s no position in the US government that carries the same political clout that Tommy Douglas or Nye Bevan held in their time, not even Obama’s. Nor is there a Beveridge in the wings to make the case in small-l liberal language. Teddy Kennedy, now ailing, wants it as a legacy, but the power of a single senator is limited. Let’s put it the other way, though: the opponents of radical healthcare reform in the US are unlikely to suffer the same public vilification as those in the UK or Canada. They have much wealthier backers.

People outside the US will grumble about the flaws in their systems, but they know that they have a stake in their direction through the ballot box; most foreigners in the developed world generally regard the US non-system as a moral outrage. Nye Bevan would have made it clear: profit-driven health insurance companies are parasitical filth, and have no place in a civilised society. But that’s apparently impolite.

‘aftercancer’ sums it up: you cannot plan for the cost of serious illness. You can’t accumulate a mortgage’s worth of rainy-day money just in case you’re diagnosed with cancer in your thirties, or get   run over while crossing the street. Anyone who says you can is full of shit. Insurance is meant to deal with those risks, but it clearly doesn’t work in the US, because people can’t afford the premiums or get denied reimbursement or become uninsurable on a regular basis.

Bankruptcy is a routine follow-up treatment in the US. That’s insane.

Comment #60: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/20  at  03:02 PM

Ursula L, suing my family for pain and suffering after you run a red light and hit my mother’s car is frivolous, or at least stupid. I hope you find it a forgivable ideological lapse when someone wants to use their own words to describe their own direct experience of an event. It was, however, not my actual intent to conflate the kind of case you cite - in which there is no provision to support a person handicapped by a medical mistake besides suing the maker of that mistake - with the kind of case I was talking about. I was just struck by the sudden idea that even lawsuits I would deem frivolous  are often last-ditch efforts by people who are facing home foreclosure or enormous medical debt, two things that liberals are all about fixing in the first place. Obviously my wording was unclear, for which I apologize.

Comment #61: purpleshoes  on  07/20  at  03:05 PM

I was just struck by the sudden idea that even lawsuits I would deem frivolous are often last-ditch efforts by people who are facing home foreclosure or enormous medical debt, two things that liberals are all about fixing in the first place. Obviously my wording was unclear, for which I apologize.

Ah, that makes sense. 

The lack of access to care distorts US society in all sorts of strange ways, and those distortions are a tool for distracting people from the basic (and solvable) problem, by those who don’t want to see the problem solved.

Comment #62: Ursula L  on  07/20  at  03:21 PM

Everyone who is resubmitting their claims and willing to fight the insurance companies has a MUCH better chance of getting covered.

I temped at a medical billing office for 2 weeks.  Day 3 a new biller goes to the manager to ask about Aetna denying a claim.  The manager’s answer?  Aetna denies EVERYTHING the first time, just put it in again and they’ll likely pay it.

Aetna makes major cash off of people who don’t know to resubmit.

Comment #63: Siobhan  on  07/20  at  03:23 PM

I haven’t had health insurance since I aged out of my parents’ plan—haven’t been able to get a job that offers it, or afford to get it privately.  For the last couple of years I’ve been increasingly fatigued (along with a few other symptoms.)  My sister had the same symptoms and was diagnosed with a thyroid condition (she does have insurance, through her husband’s job).  I probably have the same thing, but can’t afford to find out.  Meanwhile, I don’t have the energy for even basic activities, much less to really work at finding a job that would provide health coverage.

Comment #64: A.  on  07/20  at  03:23 PM

Colloid cyst of the third ventricle (and other brain cysts) can result in death. The cranium has only so much space, and should a mass, “benign” or malignant, grow too large, it can kill the person by squashing the brain downward (“herniation”).

Comment #65: NancyP  on  07/20  at  03:26 PM

Aetna denies EVERYTHING the first time, just put it in again and they’ll likely pay it.

This is the plot of John Grisham’s Rainmaker—an unethical insurance company decides to deny every claim unless the participant gets or threatens to get a lawyer.  They do this once every 5 years and rake in a fortune.

Instead of being appalled at the lack of humanity, insurance agency CEOs read it as a master plan, only they didn’t do it once every five years, but EVERY year and every claim.

I had a pediatrician once who managed to force a previous insurer to cover a claim.  That’s right, he got the payment out of an insurance agency that actually didn’t have to pay it.  I don’t know how he did it, except that he was tenacious as hell.

Comment #66: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/20  at  03:40 PM

Funny/not funny story, re: waits for appointments. 

This morning I called two offices to try and get an appoment with an ophthamologist, after seeing my PCP (the one in Mass., if anyone is following from above) last week.  The first place I called was no good.  Well, ok, I’m sure they are nice people, but they didn’t have any appointments at all available until late August.  I’m moving ut of state August 15, so that wouldn’t work.

The second place I called, they gave me an appointment for Thursday afternoon.  As in three days from now. 


I have to say, I’ve noticed that I tend to get appointments more quickly than I used to.  For both regular physicians and for specialists.  I actually was quite astounded when I made an appointment in New York with a dermatologist and they offered me a time in about two weeks, and then I had to explain that, no I needed an appointment in a month, cause I was coming in from out of state.  I think it really confused the receptionist.  And I was calling so far ahead of time, thinking that I’d need to call that early.  Cause I seem to remember that even a few years ago, it was harder to get appointments.  Maybe doctors are allowing less time per patient and double booking more?  The two times I’ve been to that dermotologist, I’ve had to wait 45 mins to an hour, so maybe they are overbooking themselves? 


And an ER story.  Last summer my mother got tossed around by some yard furniture in a heavy wind storm, breaking two toes on one foot and needed stiches for a huge gash on the other.  Though I was asleep at the time, and my brother has the same lifeguard/first aid training as I do (and was awake), it was deemed that I was the only one who could triage at home and then take her to the ER.  We got there at 10 pm, and waited for three hours.  It’s all a funny story now, with jokes about tornadoes, Kansas, etc., but my mom was in a lot of pain, dripping blood all over the ER waiting room and so on.  Ultimately, x-rays splinting her toes, and stitching her up took, what, twenty minutes? once we were seen.  They could have at least given her some pain meds or something.  And isn’t part of triage to get the cases that clearly need medical intervention, but are ultimately simple, like binding broken toes and putting in a couple stitches, cleared out as fast as you can?

Cause who else is going to deal with broken toes and stitches at 10 pm?  That people use the emergency room is not a surprise.  Yet every ER ever has consistent long waits.  There were no huge emergencies the night we were there—it was a normal night with colicky babies and worried young mothers, cuts and scrapes, broke bones, and various things that could be dealt with by regular doctors if it hadn’t been the middle of the night.  Is every ER in the country understaffed?  Are they hoping that the more mild cases that come in will either feel better or get fed up and go home before being seen?  I guess three hours is not all thaaaat long, but still.

Comment #67: rowmyboat  on  07/20  at  03:44 PM

I probably have the same thing, but can’t afford to find out.

This.  So this.

What could possibly be more frightening about a “socialist” government-run plan than what we have now, where premiums are prohibitive unless employed at a large firm and anyone not a millionaire dare not seek treatment without insurance because not only will they not be able to afford it, they will NEVER obtain insurance again thanks to a diagnosed “pre-existing” condition.

It’s barbaric.  We are not a civilized nation.  There’s not a single person living in the Western World (who’s not fabulously wealthy) who would exchange systems with us.

Comment #68: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/20  at  03:45 PM

Hey, A., basic hypothyroid problems are relatively easy/inexpensive to diagnose and treat, so if you can muster up a couple hundred bucks for a visit to the doctor and the blood test, don’t be too scared about cost.  Since they figured out how to treat it soooo long ago, the medication is like the generic of all generics, therefore not costing much even if you don’t have insurance.

Comment #69: rowmyboat  on  07/20  at  03:48 PM

There’s not a single person living in the Western World (who’s not fabulously wealthy) who would exchange systems with us.

Oh there are. I’ve met these people. But they tend to be well-off folks in good jobs who cannot imagine that their work coverage will ever fail them.

Comment #70: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  07/20  at  04:26 PM

I need allergy desensitization shots, because I have a life-threatening allergy to fire ants. My student health clinic offers allergy shots, so I stopped in to see about scheduling an appointment. They told me that they couldn’t treat me there, because I am at high risk for an adverse reaction. I was referred to a different clinic, off-campus.

This clinic was in-network, and it should have cost me $22 per weekly visit, which I can just barely afford. But I was being billed $110 per weekly visit. After spending more than nine hours on the phone with my insurance company, I discovered I was being charged a non-preferred rate even though the clinic was in-network, because I could have been seen at the student clinic but chose not to be. Well, there was the pesky fact that they wouldn’t treat me there, but whatever.

And with my dental insurance, every claim filed first comes back back as, “Unspecified procedure not covered by your plan,” no matter what it is. And then there’s usually some other problem, like they claimed to only cover amalgam fillings and not tooth-colored composite, ever - something not mentioned in any of the literature provided to me or to my dentist’s office, and which turned out not to be actually true.

I won’t even mention the hoops I needed to jump through to get my insurance company to authorize an MRI. And I’m lucky enough to be able to spend hours on the phone during the day - I can’t imagine trying to get this taken care of over a lunch break.

Comment #71: minball  on  07/20  at  04:26 PM

Maybe doctors are allowing less time per patient and double booking more?  The two times I’ve been to that dermotologist, I’ve had to wait 45 mins to an hour, so maybe they are overbooking themselves?

I think that patients are putting off health care due to the recession, more likely.

Both my OB/GYN and the kid’s ped called US recently to get us to come in for our annuals. I detected the hint of desperation when I told the OB/GYN office that I’d call back later for an appointment.

Comment #72: hp  on  07/20  at  04:28 PM

Well, I can tell you that planned parenthood is not short of patients.  I don’t know how many people cal me every day (@ pp scheduling) and say that they need to come in because they have lost their job/insurance and need to switch to us because we are low cost/sliding fee.

Comment #73: GumbyAnne  on  07/20  at  04:43 PM

the Daily Mail-reading classes from taking out private insurance so that they can can avoid sharing public wards with the schwartzers.

I’m all for rich people paying for private care in a universal system.  The rest of us will be spared their whining when the medical staff fails to attend to their every whim.

Comment #74: keshmeshi  on  07/20  at  04:50 PM

Fix those two things, and we’ll no longer have a litigious society.  Because we don’t have a litigious society now, we have a society where people are desperate, and have no way to meet their basic human survival needs other than suing.

We would have a less litigious society, but I doubt it will completely go away.  Most people sue because they have to; some people sue because they want to.

Comment #75: keshmeshi  on  07/20  at  04:52 PM

We would have a less litigious society, but I doubt it will completely go away.  Most people sue because they have to; some people sue because they want to.

It should be noted that in NZ, we explicitly gave up the right to sue in accidents in exchange for universal coverage through ACC.  They have systems of compensation based on level of disability, and also spend time and resources on preventative care and accident prevention.

Since they can’t drop you or deny you, their goal is to rehabilitate you.

Comment #76: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/20  at  05:25 PM

The breakdown of healthcare spending in the US is 45% government, 35% private insurance, 15% “out of pocket”.  The latter seems awfully high.  It must reflect those without healthcare entirely, and those forced to the brink of bankruptcy because their insurance has defaulted on them.

My wife went through organ failure and transplantation on Medicare.  It was all you could ask for from health coverage- no deductibles, no refused tests or procedures, no arguments over unpaid bills.

Comment #77: bob h  on  07/20  at  06:40 PM

keshmeshi: some people sue because they want to.

But they might find less costly or sad things to sue about, like the aesthetic horror of their neighbour’s garden gnomes.

I’m all for rich people paying for private care in a universal system.  The rest of us will be spared their whining when the medical staff fails to attend to their every whim.

If you have people paying a percentage of their income into the system, or a progressive percentage (as in taxes), you want to rich people in the system. Let them get add-on insurance if they want servants.

Comment #78: inge  on  07/20  at  06:47 PM

If you have people paying a percentage of their income into the system, or a progressive percentage (as in taxes), you want to rich people in the system. Let them get add-on insurance if they want servants.

That’s what I’m talking about.

Comment #79: keshmeshi  on  07/20  at  07:19 PM

The breakdown of healthcare spending in the US is 45% government, 35% private insurance, 15% “out of pocket”.  The latter seems awfully high.  It must reflect those without healthcare entirely, and those forced to the brink of bankruptcy because their insurance has defaulted on them.

It also reflects those whose insurance doesn’t exactly pay for care. Our policy, for example, has something like a $2K deductible per person and a $7K out-of-pocket limit. So if I get hurt and go to the ER (unless it’s an in-network ER, because they don’t want to make this simple) the first two grand of charges are my problem (except for the part about a doctor looking at me, which gets reimbursed at some random rate, and any prescription meds, which get reimbursed at some other random rate). If I’m in really bad shape, they pay 80% or whatever of my expenses and I pay the other 20% until I’ve laid out a total of seven grand, at which point they pay everything until I reach my coverage limit, and then they dump me.

And then there’s the stuff that the insurance company doesn’t pay because they decided they don’t cover that.

So it’s quite possible for a family with perfectly-functioning health insurance, and a few bad events, to be laying out $5-10K a year on health care in addition to their premiums.

Comment #80: paul  on  07/20  at  10:55 PM

Gumbyanne, that’s why I always go to Planned Parenthood for my gynoing anyway - I’ve got the good insurance, and I figure it’s useful to have someone come in who’s not on the sliding scale and costing the foundation money? At least that’s how I justify taking up their time, since the care I receive at Planned Parenthood has been worlds and away superior to the care I’ve received anywhere else.

The thing that frustrates me about medicaid is how many doctors will refuse to take it - I used to work in health outreach, and was there the day the last orthopedist in an hour drive to any direction stopped taking it.

Comment #81: purpleshoes  on  07/21  at  09:09 AM

Does anyone want to start a class-action lawsuit against Horizon Blue Cross BS? My story with them doesn’t seem that bad, but they do refuse to do the job I pay them for.

Comment #82: hf  on  07/22  at  04:22 AM
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