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Next entry: Some dangers of added regulations to sperm banks Previous entry: Dealbreakers

Hippie-punching

Democrats

Atrios and Digby both commented on Cass Sunstein engaging in a light bout of hippie-punching in order to justify the Obama administration once again caving to Republicans, this time on environmental regulations that would have created jobs. Both cleaning up the environment and creating jobs are things that Republicans oppose---the latter so they can make frowny faces about unemployment and get elected, while also achieving the larger goal of increasing the gap between the haves and the have nots---so it was caving time.  And when caving happens, justification happens.  When justification happens, liberals on the internet get angry. Here's the rationalization quote:

“My view is that the Republican claim that ‘job-killing regulation’ is a redundancy is as ridiculous as the left-wing view that ‘job-killing regulation’ is an oxymoron,” said Cass Sunstein, head of the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs. “Both are silly political claims that have no place in a serious discussion.”

This is irritating to me not so much because of the tedious hippie-punching so much as its total irrelevance.  The argument for increasing environmental regulations such as the ozone protections regulations Obama abandoned is that it actually creates jobs, not that regulations somehow are always job-neutral.  Sunstein is using the moron contingent that exists in any coalition as cover for this irrevelant puffery.  

I'm not really a fan of the "no one says that" retort when Democrats hippie-punch, however.  I'm just a lowly writer and I get TONS of emails, tweets, etc. from braindead leftists who think politics is about proving how your pure your ideology is more than making evidence-based arguments, so I can just imagine what the Obama administration is getting.  You try to tell yourself under such a barrage that said people are just cranks who don't matter, subh sometimes they do get under your skin, and there they wait for a moment of emotional weakness, such as when you desire to rationalize your bad choices.  Politicians are human beings, and being human beings, they latch onto rationalizations for their choices like this.  It's a lot easier to imagine yourself as someone who rises about the powerless leftist morons who write you letters every day than to admit you caved into conservatives.  The former makes you look strong and nuanced, the latter makes you look weak. I strongly suspect the majority of people who get bent at these rationalizations would do the same in Sunstein's shoes.  Few of us just want to say, "I caved to pressure from my political opponents." 

Which is, of course, what they did.  And have done and will continue to do because we're---as I've noted before---in a cycle where conservatives still have the rhetorical upper hand, though that is thankfully fading.  We all know that these ozone regulations would have created jobs, but that wouldn't have mattered much in the field of politics.  There will still be high unemployment after these regulations, and Republicans will blame the regulations, and the public---even non-conservatives---will buy it, because the myth that labor and the environment are opposed to each other was lodged into the American brain during the spotted owl crisis.  There's a lot of hard work we have to do to erase this myth, and that's all there is to it.  People believe explanations not because they fit the evidence at hand, but because they fit into preconceived models they have of understanding, no matter how foolish.  For instance, no matter how much you can get people to listen to germ theory and even agree to the scientific reality of it, the eagerness to assign moral causes to people's infections is still strong (and had a big influence on hostility to health care reform), which is why STDs are still spoken about in whispers and people still pray for someone's recovery, even though we can prove that being right with supernatural beings has no impact whatsoever on your health.  Which is why Dick Cheney is alive and Kurt Cobain is dead, but I digress.  Point is, the Obama adminstration's caving, while irritating as fuck, needs to be understood in the context of America's incredibly reactionary political environment. 

I'm just not really a fan of individual, personality-based explanations for systemic problems like "Democrats caving".  We as a country would be better off if we stopped seeing politicians as leaders so much as ciphers.  Liberals could let go of the fantasy of a bold leader who will stomp Republicans into the ground and conservatives could perhaps start treating politics with the same empathy and nuance they tend to apply to their own lives.  You know, for example, the way they forgive themselves for their own abortions and have sex without apologizing.  They could maybe start giving others that thoughtfulness as well, instead of demanding leaders who "prove" how strong they are by kicking the crap out of the vulnerable.

Atrios has a question about Sunstein's comments:

With stuff like this the question is...who is the intended audience? Or, more specifically, which people are the people they imagine to be complete idiots, because they're the intended audience? Or is the speaker the idiot? Mysteries.

I feel I can answer this one.  It's twofold.  The most immediate audience is the administration themselves, which is deep in rationalization mode.  There are a handful of extraordinary human beings who, under immense psychological pressure to put up a front, can describe themselves as someone who caves to the sorts of assholes who make up the leadership of the Republican party. But those kind of searingly honest people who never rationalize are far too rare to be the entire staff of a bobsled team, much less a presidential administration.  The other intended audience is the Beltway media, who eats this shit up.  I can understand why it's beyond most people to tell the people who shape the narrative of politics to take a long walk off a short pier, and instead much easier to pander to their prejudices so they like you. 

Of course, I'm writing all this assuming that the wisdom inside the administration was that the regulations were a good idea.  I think that's a safe assumption, since they did initially offer them up.  If they were opposed from the get-go, I don't imagine they'd even put them on the table. 

I'm sure what you're intending to ask me now is that if we don't get hepped up about the Obama administration's hippie-punching, what should we get hepped up about?  I think I've really answered that before---the conservative leanings and myths of our country.  Granted, undoing the systems that create these problems is a lot more effort than getting pissed at the symptom of Democrats caving, but I do think it's the only chance we even have at all. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:59 AM • (80) Comments

Obama did something smart politically. He knows the jobs aren’t going to be plentiful before Election Day, so he’s not giving the Republicans opportunities to point to the “job-killing regulations” he could have endorsed. It’s politics, plain and simple. And as frustrating as this can be, it’s better that he win next November than do whatever he can to give Perry ammunition.

This President has lowered taxes, cut regulations, reduced the Federal workforce, cut deficits, and the jobs aren’t there. That’s the issue, that will be the issue next November, and he’s going to have an easy time saying that Republican policies don’t work. The Republicans, on the other hand, are like a Soviet politburo coming up with a new five-year plan to enforce party purity and stronger efforts to make failed policies fail before the next plan is due.

And what’s to stop him from implementing the regulations in the second week of November, 2012?

Comment #1: 3letterjon  on  09/06  at  10:11 AM

“We all know that these ozone regulations would have created jobs”

Care to back this statement up with any credible source? Or is this just your opinion?

Comment #2: faiimuden  on  09/06  at  10:16 AM

That’s the issue, that will be the issue next November, and he’s going to have an easy time saying that Republican policies don’t work.

I’m not convinced of that. Given how much he gets tarred as the “business-hating president” even now, I don’t see him getting any rhetorical lift out of this. The Republicans will just run on him not doing enough, or having any other policy they don’t like “preventing those otherwise-sensible cuts from doing what they are supposed to”.  I don’t see how this gives him any rhetorical advantage that will stick, even if I can see the theory you’re going for here.

Comment #3: LC  on  09/06  at  10:37 AM

“Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for the real Republican all the time.” - Harry S. Truman

Comment #4: Steve LaBonne  on  09/06  at  10:39 AM

Even when Republicans fail, they’ve succeeded, because politics is literally a game to them. They have no stake in what happens to the economy or the environment or anything else that affects the country as a whole. They’re a bunch of old men sitting around the nursing home playing checkers. If they lose this game, they’ll probably win the next one, and they’re going to die anyway so it doesn’t matter.

Comment #5: junk science  on  09/06  at  10:47 AM

I couldn’t disagree more, and reading this post reminded me of why I had stopped reading this blog, which used to be one of my favorites.

Comment #6: Simone  on  09/06  at  10:56 AM

faiimuden (@2). She backed it up in first sentence with the link to Krugman who said

And now you can see why tighter ozone regulation would actually have created jobs: it would have forced firms to spend on upgrading or replacing equipment, helping to boost demand. Yes, it would have cost money — but that’s the point! And with corporations sitting on lots of idle cash, the money spent would not, to any significant extent, come at the expense of other investment.

3letterjon (@1). Do you really think any Republican is going to actually no going to run on job killing regulations because of this? We’ve already seen their strategy. They called it a good first step. It’s great Obama listened to us on this one, and here’s a list of dozens more regulations he should stop since he agrees that they kill jobs. Also, polls consistently show that people back environmental regulations. He could have fought for them, and said why they were necessary and helped the public instead of buying conservative narratives.

Comment #7: penn  on  09/06  at  10:57 AM

Simone (@6). What’s the point of a comment just stating your disagreement? Make an argument.

Comment #8: penn  on  09/06  at  11:02 AM

The financial crash was caused by the repeal of Glass Steagull. It was DE-regulation which got us into this mess.

Similarly, the dirty coal plants would have to - y’know actually SPEND money and hire people to fit new particulate filters and so forth. Spending money CREATES jobs. They don’t want the regs precisely because they would have to ‘create jobs’ to fix it. It’s not jobs the coal plants will save, it’s profits.

Corporate profits are at all times highs, yet this notion that if we make their profits even more obscene they will somehow yield to us poor crackers and throw us a bone of some crap jobs. That’s the rethug narrative. It’s crazy and “Mr Halfway” is not calling it crazy - he’s pretending it’s the truth.

That’s the problem with Obama. It’s his core weakness and he’s turning out to be a kind of parody of Clinton. He agrees with the ‘consensus’ of rethugs on everything.

That’s what led him to the backstabbing incident which first opened my eyes in December 2010. BHO, NOT consulting Pelosi in any of it - simply agreed with Boehner to keep the Bush tax cuts in place. Even though most consumer spending now mostly goes to stimulate CHINESE manufacturing (and surprise surprise, there is wage and price inflation in China now) BHO holds onto the myth that “tax cuts and government spending are interchangeable.” They are not.

Pelosi later made a pretty obvious retort: Why didn’t these wonderful tax cuts ‘create jobs’ from 2002-2009? Why would continuing them do anything?

Now Romney has a new economic plan that says cutting taxes and regs will do magic (and screwing labor unions, natch) and we have a ‘liberal’ who acts like he believes that - DESPITE the evidence to the contrary.

Comment #9: KingElvis  on  09/06  at  11:02 AM

People believe explanations not because they fit the evidence at hand, but because they fit into preconceived models they have of understanding, no matter how foolish.

I think people believe whatever explanations require them not to change their lives in any unpleasant way. Which is basically what you’re saying.

And as frustrating as this can be, it’s better that he win next November than do whatever he can to give Perry ammunition.

This, however, I cannot agree with. We’ve been “not giving the Republicans ammunition” for 20 years, but they keep coming up with it. Obama cut taxes for 95% of the country, and the Republicans are still running around screaming about tax hikes. Just like Bill Clinton basically ended welfare and Republicans still scream about welfare.

Republicans don’t think Democrats are Americans, much less legitimately elected leaders. There’s no bargaining with them because for them there’s no bargaining with us.

Comment #10: RickMassimo  on  09/06  at  11:06 AM

I think this is a genuine sentiment by Sunstein, and he probably wasn’t being especially Villager that time.  Sunstein spends alot of time writing about creating better regulations.  This Amazon page might be enlightening…

http://www.amazon.com/Nudge-Improving-Decisions-Health-Happiness/dp/014311526X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1315321513&sr=8-1

I make no claims as to whether Sunstein is right.  He is, technically speaking, correct, and a bit more than that.  The question of how wrong he is, is about whether he’s painting a rational majority by the lights of an irrational minority.

Comment #11: shah8  on  09/06  at  11:07 AM

They called it a good first step. It’s great Obama listened to us on this one, and here’s a list of dozens more regulations he should stop since he agrees that they kill jobs.

Exactly. Moreover, Obama’s “strategy” is basically to tell voters, “Republican issues are valid but you should vote for me because I’ll pursue them less thoroughly and single-mindedly than they will”. In what universe is that a winning political strategy?

Comment #12: Steve LaBonne  on  09/06  at  11:14 AM

#7

There are no studies that show the Clean Air Act resulted in net positive job creation. Same for sulfur dioxide. Same for 10 micron particulate. The tired old bs about regulations requiring new equipment just means that equipment is purchased from China. If the tired old bs was true, then we should be able to just regulate our way to whatever level of economic success we want.

Comment #13: faiimuden  on  09/06  at  11:14 AM

faiimuden (@7), Did you actually read the Krugman piece? He specifically argues why this regulation at this time will create jobs. It’s because we have liquidity issues. Companies are sitting on large piles of money. Forcing them to spend that money would thus have a stimulative effect on the economy.

Those other regulations certainly may not directly create jobs, but studies consistently show that the benefits outweigh the costs and sometimes by orders of magnitude.

Comment #14: penn  on  09/06  at  11:24 AM

I’m just not really a fan of individual, personality-based explanations for systemic problems like “Democrats caving”.  We as a country would be better off if we stopped seeing politicians as leaders so much as ciphers.  Liberals could let go of the fantasy of a bold leader who will stomp Republicans into the ground

Excellent point. I’ve had trouble really grasping your feelings about Obama in past posts, but this really clarifies things. And I agree - the trouble with Washington’s inability to provide substantive reform on much of anything [that doesn’t also involve doing the insurance industry a favor] isn’t Obama’s fault, it’s the entire Village’s fault, and by extension a problem that the entire political discourse in our country has. There are center-left types who still believe that Obama is some post-partisan president who rises above Village politics, but he absolutely does not.

@1
This President has lowered taxes, cut regulations, reduced the Federal workforce, cut deficits, and the jobs aren’t there. That’s the issue, that will be the issue next November, and he’s going to have an easy time saying that Republican policies don’t work.

Good god you’re naive. The swing voters aren’t going to see our continuing jobs crisis as a failure of Republican policy (even though it is). They’re going to do what they always do, which is punish the incumbent president for it, regardless of whether or not that president is in any way responsible for the jobs crisis (which he is, a little, but not nearly as much as the GOP).

Swing voters have absolutely no sense of 1) what distinguishes the two parties, beyond stock phrases like “tax and spend” and 2) what has actually gone on politically in this country. The fact that the federal government has “lowered taxes, cut regulations, reduced the Federal workforce, and cut deficits” is not something that they are aware of. Many or most of them probably still believe that Obama has ballooned government spending, which is what the GOP narrative is and will continue to be.

Point is, many or most voters don’t vote based on reality. Your whole argument is based on the idea that Obama will be able to point out reality to these people, and they’ll say, “Oh, good point, I see now that Republican policy is objectively harmful to our national interests,” and vote for him. If Obama is playing 11D chess (which I’m not buying), and his 11D chess strategy is based on the idea that voters are a largely rational, informed group of people, he’s playing it wrong.

Comment #15: Triplanetary  on  09/06  at  11:36 AM

Don’t forget the meters to measure/monitor particulates, which exist and for the most part are not installed because they aren’t needed if you don’t upgrade.  The effect is like the historic districts with unintended side effects fo flling down wrecks of buildings - if you fix the porch, you have to upgrade the whole thing.  Make industry put them in and they will start doing the other upgrades they would do now (due to increases in efficiency, tracking, etc) if they didn’t trigger a need to do those upgrades as well.

Comment #16: helen w. h.  on  09/06  at  11:43 AM

faiimuden (@7), Did you actually read the Krugman piece? He specifically argues why this regulation at this time will create jobs. It’s because we have liquidity issues. Companies are sitting on large piles of money. Forcing them to spend that money would thus have a stimulative effect on the economy.

Krugman has either not thought this through is is being disingenuous.  The fact is, the companies that are sitting on fat balance sheets are mostly tech companies.  See these two articles
http://www.npr.org/2011/08/17/139703989/companies-sit-on-cash-reluctant-to-invest-hire

http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/2649739:BlogPost:518155

Would emission regulations affect Apple or Microsoft?  No.  But they would affect the manufacturing sector and transport sector.  How much cash are they sitting on?  I haven’t seen any breakdowns by sector, but I’ll bet they’re just a little more vulnerable.

The above article says that it’s mostly tech companies that are sitting on cash, mostly profits from foreign operations, and they’re keeping them as cash overseas before transferring them to the U.S. and paying taxes on them.  They have their biggest margins in foreign operations.

What does this have to do with ozone regulations? Absolutely nothing.  Except that many companies affected by tightened US emission regulations will, instead of investing in new plant and capital in the US, simply invest in new plant and capital overseas, where they will pay less for it, since they won’t have to buy emission control technologies.  They’ll also be able to operate it with cheaper workers.

 

 

Comment #17: PeterZeroOne  on  09/06  at  11:45 AM

If the tired old bs was true, then we should be able to just regulate our way to whatever level of economic success we want.

Nobody’s arguing that unlimited regulation will yield unlimited economic growth, but we’re so astoundingly far below the level of regulation that’s actually necessary that your point is moot.

Comment #18: Triplanetary  on  09/06  at  11:46 AM

#14

Cite a study that shows an environmental regulation produced benefits that outweighed costs by “orders of magnitude”. Not some hand waving “it would have had all external costs been truly accounted for” type of stuff. Cite a study ( not a Krugman polemic) that shows jobs before regulation vs jobs after regulation.
If it can be done at all, it will be difficult to find. Regulations serve important functions as to safety and predictable funtion of many systems. They are not an effective vehicle to promote economic improvement.
In my opinion.

Comment #19: faiimuden  on  09/06  at  11:49 AM

And even if the materials were to come from China (no, actually, they are mostly built here and in Europe, but whatever), the money would still go out into circulation instead of be held “for emegencies” and someone would have to be hired to do the installations.

Comment #20: helen w. h.  on  09/06  at  11:50 AM

Obama.

Comment #21: Baruk  on  09/06  at  11:56 AM

PeterZeroOne (@17)

The NPR article has a list of the top ten companies with extra cash, and 6 of those are tech companies. But, like you said, they won’t be affected. And the article does say that:

“In a recent report, Moody’s said the 1,600-plus U.S.-based companies it rates had $1.2 trillion in cash at the end of 2010 — 11.2 percent more than they did a year earlier.”

And, those tech companies in the top ten hold less than a quarter of that.

I also love the race to the bottom argument in the final paragraph. Having environmental and labor standards scares companies away. Ultimately we should try to be more like Mexico and China. That’s the way to prosperity. You do realize that the primary purpose of the ozone regulation is to increase air quality and decrease respiratory illness? Study after study have shown that when externatilities are included that air quality regulations save more than they cost, often by orders of magnitude.

Comment #22: penn  on  09/06  at  11:58 AM

faiimuden, you don’t take into account the increased economic activity from people not getting sick from air pollution:

The EPA also noted that while compliance with the new rule would cost polluters between $19 billion and $90 billion a year by 2020, the benefits to human health will be worth between $13 billion and $100 billion every year.

Healthier people are more productive people.  That’s so evident, that, to borrow from J.S. Mill, I think even a conservative could hardly deny it.

 

Comment #23: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/06  at  12:00 PM

Obama did something smart politically. He knows the jobs aren’t going to be plentiful before Election Day, so he’s not giving the Republicans opportunities to point to the “job-killing regulations” he could have endorsed. It’s politics, plain and simple. And as frustrating as this can be, it’s better that he win next November than do whatever he can to give Perry ammunition.

The Republicans don’t need evidence to call Obama a socialist. The facts don’t really matter in our dear old political discourse. What matters is what you can get people to believe. More specifically, what you can get the least-informed among the electorate to believe. Remember Iraq’s balsa drone air force?

Which is why I think it’d be helpful for Obama to be more rhetorically left. Caving to conservative pressure on this isn’t going to convince anyone of anything, other than pissing off Obama’s most loyal supporters. As Amanda says, the people who think this is a good idea because “BIG BUSINESS IS GOD!!!!!!!111!!!!!! BOW DOWN!!!!!!11!!!” are going to correctly perceive that Mitt Romney will suck up better and harder. The people who are convinced Obama is a Kenyan Marxist usurper are still going to want to “take back their country” from him.

Remember the administration deciding to, unprompted, start allowing more offshore drilling? That worked out just great.

Comment #24: witless chum  on  09/06  at  12:00 PM

faiimuden (@19)

<a href=“http://www.epa.gov/air/sect812/prospective2.html”>Done.<a>

According to this study, the direct benefits from the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments are estimated to reach almost $2 trillion for the year 2020, a figure that dwarfs the direct costs of implementation ($65 billion). The report was updated in April 2011.

Took me less than 60 seconds. Maybe you should actually look for data rather than relying on your intuition.

 

Comment #25: penn  on  09/06  at  12:01 PM

Look back through history (pay special attention to 1994) and there is a clear pattern of republicans emerging with scorched earth policies that is quickly followed by huge portions of the American public not trusting the government. The two go hand in hand over and over again. This time, it is more urgent than ever to change the narrative but how do we go about doing that?

The latest blatantly false misrepresentation of what a Democrat said happened yesterday to labor leader James Hoffa. He did not call for violent insurrection against the tea party, he urged everyone in a union to vote. But you wouldn’t know that thanks to the super hype he got on Faux news and the beltway media calling on him to “tone down the rhetoric.” Really? He’s the one who is supposed to tone it down against people who show up armed to political rallies with signs specifically calling for the overthrow of the government. And all of the pearl clutching about Maxine Waters saying the tea party could kiss her ass. Several tea baggers shouted the n-word at her colleagues last year, yet she gets called out for being uncivil.

They throw 1,000 punches and we throw one back in return, yet we are branded the bullies. I am open to any suggestions on how we go about changing that.

Comment #26: serious bette  on  09/06  at  12:02 PM

<a >Done.</a>

Comment #27: penn  on  09/06  at  12:02 PM

I linked a Nobel prize-winning economist making the argument, faii. I know your wingnuttery no doubt causes illiteracy, but maybe someone can read it to you.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/06  at  12:07 PM

Cite a study that shows an environmental regulation produced benefits that outweighed costs by “orders of magnitude”. Not some hand waving “it would have had all external costs been truly accounted for” type of stuff.

The entire fucking point of environmental regulation is to deal with unpriced externalities.

Comment #29: Dunc  on  09/06  at  12:09 PM

You can tell faiimuden is right, because the richest states in the US are the ones with the weakest environmental and labor laws.

No, wait, those are the poorest states in the US.

And the poorest countries in the world.

The choice isn’t between regulation and prosperity.  There’s no tradeoff there; prosperity flows from good regulation.  The choice is between indulging conservatives’ hatred and unwillingness to ever learn anything and prosperity.

Comment #30: Punditus Maximus  on  09/06  at  12:15 PM

Simone is a decent example of what I’m talking about:no argument, just saying “be more ideologically pure, whatever that means, or I want love you anymore!!!!” This stuff can batter any human being, but politicians are especially suspectible to it, which is why they tend to overrated how important it is, and sound like idiots by focusing on it.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/06  at  12:15 PM

If the professional left put half as much energy into educating “moderate” voters without talking down to them as they/we put into excoriating our own elected officials for bowing to the political realities of a society and media totally dominated by right-wing memes, our elected officials would be in a different political reality where they didn’t have to bow quite so much.

Comment #32: felagund  on  09/06  at  12:29 PM

”...Dick Cheney is alive and Kurt Cobain is dead…”

...which makes me wonder if the universe is not merely indifferent toward human existence but has an actual inclination toward evil…

I won’t touch the main topic except to express my deep disappointment.  I only hope that sometime before I die (10, 20, 30-years?) this country will once again move closer toward being what we were all mistakenly taught it already was all along…

Comment #33: MikeEss  on  09/06  at  12:29 PM

felagund we don’t have the microphones in this society.  We’re still putting on our trousers as the latest misconception is vacationing in Tahiti.

Comment #34: shah8  on  09/06  at  12:34 PM

If the professional left put half as much energy into educating “moderate” voters

If such a thing were possible you might have a point there.

Comment #35: Triplanetary  on  09/06  at  12:37 PM

Here’s the game the wingnuts are playing.

Wingnut: Oh yeah, you believe X? Prove it!

Liberals: Here’s evidence piece 1, 2, and 3.

Wingnut: I require evidence piece 4, 5, and 6, and declare the right to ignore 1, 2, and 3. 

Liberals: Collect 4, 5, and 6.  Show it.

Wingnut: What? I can’t hear you? 4, 5, and 6 wasn’t what I said?  I want 7, 8, and 9!

They can do this all day.  Their job isn’t to make rational arguments, but to kill rationality in discourse.

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/06  at  12:38 PM

I agree with your take on extreme political expectations, but you seem to have a prejudice that all bad public policy flows only from the right, that the mess we currently find ourselves in can all be blamed on Republicans.  You too easily dismiss the well-established Democratic Party tradition of desperately tracking rightward on nearly every important issue.  Democrats don’t have a PR problem, nor are they the victims of a warped media environment.  The reason why Democrats are rightly viewed by the electorate as lacking the courage of their convictions is because they have caved into the right wing more times than anyone can remember.  Stand for something or fall for anything, etc.

Comment #37: elpathos  on  09/06  at  12:41 PM

Regarding whether ozone regulation would produce jobs: Do we even want to go there? It sounds like a perfect example of adopting the other sides’ framing and fighting the battle on their terms. I mean, I would have thought the purpose of regulating ozone was so we wouldn’t be breathing ozone, which is demonstrably bad for our health. Of the comments above, I only saw Dark Avenger even mention this.

Yes, employment effects could certainly be taken into consideration when considering new regulations—if there would be huge costs/job loss and minimal health/safety benefit, then maybe the regulation wouldn’t be worth it. But arguing for an important, health-related air-quality standard on the basis that it “creates jobs” seems kind of screwy to me.

Comment #38: TiminIowa  on  09/06  at  12:44 PM

@37

Actually, Democrats do have a PR problem, and they are the victims of a warped media environment, because no matter how often they tack rightward in an attempt to avoid being smears of “tax and spend” and “nanny state,” they’re going to get smeared with those things anyway. The fact that the Democrats are not, in any reality I’m familiar with, particularly guilty of runaway taxation and spending has never stopped the GOP from accusing them of it, nor has it incited the media to call the GOP on their bullshit.

I’m not going to defend the Democrats beyond that, because I think they’re too conservative, too, and I’m not a big fan of them. But the brush they get tarred with by the GOP and the media, and in turn the large uninformed segment of the voters, has absolutely nothing to do with what the Democrats actually do or are.

Comment #39: Triplanetary  on  09/06  at  12:45 PM

If the professional left put half as much energy into educating “moderate” voters without talking down to them

How do you educate someone who says “There is no difference between Boehner and Pelosi” with a straight face?

Comment #40: cynickal  on  09/06  at  01:13 PM

felagund #32 - Here’s a suggestion: Get down to your local Dem party or OFA office and volunteer to phone or canvass to educate those “moderate” voters.  Stop expecting “the professional left” to do all the work while you sit back and critique us.  Reminds me of those guys who demand that feminists do something about X problem that men have.  To which I respond, “geez, do women have to do everything for you?”

Comment #41: DonnaDiva  on  09/06  at  01:14 PM

Of the comments above, I only saw Dark Avenger even mention this.

Yes, that’s because I live in an area of Red CA that is very affected by ozone pollution, the current air assessment is ‘unhealthy for insensitive groups’ today.

But arguing for an important, health-related air-quality standard on the basis that it “creates jobs” seems kind of screwy to me.

Unfortunately, instead of doing a jobs program, Obama has bought the Republican spin about regulations, and of course, this will serve him well the next time he negotiates with them, right, Simone?

But, yes, Clinton would’ve pointed to the savings in health costs and loss of productivity, and made his case to the American public.

Comment #42: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/06  at  01:32 PM

Also, how are we hippies supposed to persuade the low information voters (it’s they who are the problem, not the moderates) that our ideas are better when the Dem establishment regularly and publicly denigrates those ideas, and us?  Here you have a representative of the Obama administration saying that liberals who want to lessen pollution are the equivalent of teabaggers.  How does a false equivalence like that advance the understanding of the public about the importance of environmental regulations?  Answer: it doesn’t.

Comment #43: DonnaDiva  on  09/06  at  01:42 PM

How do you educate someone who says “There is no difference between Boehner and Pelosi” with a straight face?

Exactly.  As someone who works on and volunteers for campaigns I can always tell which commenters never talk to voters because they say things like “why don’t you hippies go out and educate the moderates?”  Like we never thought of that! 

Recently, when canvassing for a municipal election, I got into a conversation with one of those coveted independent voters. She said she voted for Obama in ‘08 but is now considering Perry (!) because he struck her as having lots of business experience and he runs Texas, which is a big state.  Also, she liked him because “he seems to stand for something”, unlike Obama.  So if the hippie punching is being done to impress voters like her it doesn’t appear to be having the desired effect. 

 

Comment #44: DonnaDiva  on  09/06  at  01:57 PM

Voter distrust of government is a win for Republicans. The current Democratic party is helping the Republicans at nearly every turn. It is depressing as hell. They need some PR genius to start moving things along. This regulation should have been called Freedom to Breathe in America or some such nonsense. To any Republican complaints about it, they should say “so you don’t think Americans should be free to breathe?”

Comment #45: maurinsky  on  09/06  at  01:58 PM

@39

That doesn’t fly because it’s always been thus since Reagan.  The failure hasn’t been with Democratic spin, it is the running away from core principles and vain attempts to follow the fickle breeze instead of creating it them selves.  “Leading from behind” indeed - what a what a sad yet perfect emblem for the sad state of American politics.

Comment #46: elpathos  on  09/06  at  02:26 PM

I no longer think Obama “caves” to the Republicans, the evidence on—well, everything—makes sense only if you understand that Obama caves to his corporate masters and the moneyed elite.

When that legislation hasn’t been actually dictated by the lobbyists for the top 1%: both Democrats and Republicans dance with those who brung ‘em to office.

Each side may have a different cover story to tell, and Obama may make the mistake to tell the Republican story more than half the time.

But Obama and his spokesmen are equally pissed at the right and left urging him to do what is impossible: actually serve the voters.

Pick an issue, any issue (except for the social issues, when they’ll deal crumbs to both sides) it all fits together only if you acknowledge the invisible hand of the marketplace.

Comment #47: judybrowni  on  09/06  at  02:40 PM

The big problem with American progressivism?

Too much patriotism.

Comment #48: Karmakin  on  09/06  at  03:05 PM

@DonnaDiva: Yeah, and the voters always have inconvenient questions for us. “If the Democrats care about the poor and middle class, why are they always screwing us with more free trade agreements?”

When I was working to help get votes for Obama, one of the most frequent questions was about free trade. That’s going to be a bastard to answer now that he’s not only shown that he was lying about renegotiating the existing ones, but hell bent on getting new ones.

The answer to “But WHYYYYYY do the poor and middle class vote against their economic interests?!?!?!” question is two words: Free. Trade.  Everyone that ever lost a job to outsourcing or knew someone that did will hate you the minute you claim to support it, and at this point that’s a hell of a lot of the poor and middle class.

@felagund: If our elected officials put half as much effort into countering those right wing memes as they do toward enabling them, there wouldn’t be any such meme as “professional left”.

Comment #49: JThompson  on  09/06  at  03:06 PM

Judy:The big problem is that “educated” people quite frankly are so much on the wrong track it’s very sad. By and large conventional economic theory has failed due to changing conditions, and yet mainstream, well-meaning politicians and leaders still insist on playing by the same economic rules.

Like it or not, the goals that these educated people have are entirely different from the goals that me and you have. And it’s not just Washington that corrupts them. Look at all the people complaining about falling housing prices or thinking that we can educate ourselves out of economic morass. Like it or not, the corruption goes far and wide.

Or in short, US politics is almost exclusively focused on the interests of “swing voters” who are by and large selfish, greedy, know-nothings, and yet the hold the keys to basically every election.

Comment #50: Karmakin  on  09/06  at  03:09 PM

Well, given that our economic problems are related to a lack of demand, just how will allowing a handful of producers to reduce their costs by throwing out regulation of ozone going to help matters? It seems to me that the only effect on demand will be an increased demand for healthcare, which of course is already overburdened and a net drain on our productive capacity.

Comment #51: weirdnoise  on  09/06  at  03:09 PM

Comment #47: judybrowni

Agreed, though I think many will say such an opinion of Obama is cynical, it seems to be an inescabable conclusion that he, and most of congress, aren’t interested in serving their voters or the citizens of the country they’re supposed to run.
...

I’d wish that the idea that we need corporations for jobs and the like to be crushed in the US. The state can provide jobs and see to a better distribution of needed resources than the market, maybe not get the next cool phone when you want it, not a needed resource, though the ability to communicate and means to it is, but if people wanted it badly enough, through the state you could rely on not being broke and hounded by bills because of a tough accident or illness, or disability and having your quality of life suffer. Have cleaner air, water, not have an energy company set up shop and pollute the fuck out of you for their profits.

Comment #52: R.T.  on  09/06  at  03:21 PM

If the professional left put half as much energy into educating “moderate” voters without talking down to them

The problem with Democrats (and liberals/progressives in general, it seems) is they’re still under the delusion this is an issue that requires ‘education’ and ‘consciousness raising’ where the Republicans (Tea Party in particular) already know that this is a civil war of ideas and that politics is always about *confrontation* between social groups that have incompatible and conflicting goals and interests, not about *reconciliation* around some sort of middle ground policy.

Comment #53: BlackBloc  on  09/06  at  03:35 PM

I think the point of this post was not that Obama did it crappy thing, but that ‘progressives’ should not focus on criticizing Obama (after Sunstein let us know how he feels) but criticizing Rethug memes.

The thing is, Obama is in a lot better position to criticize rethug BS than we are. It’s called the bully pulpit.

Comment #54: KingElvis  on  09/06  at  04:08 PM

Amanda, I agree with your general argument about where rage is best directed, but you are flat wrong about Cass Sunstein being an average liberal who’s hand was forced. He has always been an anti-regulation zealot (and paradoxically enough, quite authoritarian on social/cultural issues, too). He is awful, and even moderate blogs were rightly outraged when Obama nominated him in the first place. http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2009/01/10/172541/cass-sunstein-anti-regulation

Comment #55: curiouscliche  on  09/06  at  04:16 PM

“He has always been an anti-regulation zealot (and paradoxically enough, quite authoritarian on social/cultural issues, too).”

...“paradoxically”?  In my experience, the ones who moan loudest about the economic terrorism of “guvmint regulation” of industry/business are typically among the first to suggest authoritarian solutions to social and cultural issues.  For them, everything you do with your body, especially your reproductive organs, is of the highest concern to the government and The Merican Peeple and must be regulated in all aspects, lest society collapse or something. 

There’s no paradox there at all, unless you foolishly expect some sort of consistency of thought among people for whom belief and obedience to authority are far more important than thinking ever could be…

Comment #56: MikeEss  on  09/06  at  04:47 PM

BlackBloc, I think that an essential part of “educating” people entails getting them to understand that their interests do not lie with those of our corporate owners, and that the only way we’re going to defeat them or reduce their influence is to get low-information voters to see where their class interests lie.

Comment #57: felagund  on  09/06  at  05:05 PM

*Or in short, US politics is almost exclusively focused on the interests of “swing voters” who are by and large selfish, greedy, know-nothings, and yet the hold the keys to basically every election.*

Frame and hang that in Tea Party HQ.

Comment #58: elpathos  on  09/06  at  05:05 PM

I wonder if Amanda thinks Glenn is too shill too.  There’s a Bloggerheads we’d like to see.

Comment #59: elpathos  on  09/06  at  05:10 PM

I think Bruce Bartlett said all I have to say on this matter, as I’ve long run out of breath:

“In a courtroom, justice requires that both sides be equally well represented. If one doesn’t do its job properly, the jury cannot be blamed for a wrong result. If Democrats are going to accept Republican premises, they shouldn’t be surprised if a majority of people eventually conclude that Republicans ought to be in charge of government policy.”

Comment #60: Khal Mojo  on  09/06  at  05:13 PM

The argument for increasing environmental regulations such as the ozone protections regulations Obama abandoned is that it actually creates jobs, not that regulations somehow are always job-neutral.

I coulda sworn the argument for environmental regulations was to protect and improve the environment.

Comment #61: Eric_RoM  on  09/06  at  05:28 PM

The answer to “But WHYYYYYY do the poor and middle class vote against their economic interests?!?!?!” question is two words: Free. Trade.  Everyone that ever lost a job to outsourcing or knew someone that did will hate you the minute you claim to support it, and at this point that’s a hell of a lot of the poor and middle class.

True that, and it doesn’t help matters that the defenders of free trade are insufferable douches like Tom Friedman.

Comment #62: DonnaDiva  on  09/06  at  05:28 PM

“True that, and it doesn’t help matters that the defenders of free trade are insufferable douches like Tom Friedman.”

It would be really interesting (and entertaining no doubt) if the Mustache of Understanding found his job outsourced to someone in Mumbai, where Mr. Kunal Patel (the John Smith of India) can pretend he received blue-collar political/economic wisdom from local cabbies, same as Freidman, and we can benefit from the perspective of an actual resident of Freidman’s flat (free-trade economic, outsource everything) earth.

Then, if Bobo Brooks and Chunky Bobo are deservedly replaced with semi-sentient AI software, the New York Times will have demonstrated improved efficiency among OpEd columnists, and a considerable savings for their stock-holders…

Comment #63: MikeEss  on  09/06  at  06:07 PM

From Amanda’s post:

I’m sure what you’re intending to ask me now is that if we don’t get hepped up about the Obama administration’s hippie-punching, what should we get hepped up about?  I think I’ve really answered that before—-the conservative leanings and myths of our country.  Granted, undoing the systems that create these problems is a lot more effort than getting pissed at the symptom of Democrats caving, but I do think it’s the only chance we even have at all.

The Dem establishment constantly undermines our efforts to challenge right wing myths.  I know I told you on Facebook about how AZ Democratic politicians and staffers ordered single payer advocates to put their signs down at pro-health care reform rallies in the summer of ‘09.  This was back when we were told every idea was on the table and everyone’s input was welcome but apparently the notion of extending Medicare to all Americans was too far out commie radical for the public to see. 

As far as being hepped up, yes, the punching really pisses me off but if it were actually succeeding in what hippie punching is supposed to do - attract support from moderates and independents - I’d say punch away.  It’s not.  Pres. Obama’s approval is hovering at less than 40% and he’s lost the independents and conserva-Dems in droves.  The only people sticking by him in the polls are, guess who?  Yep, progressives.  So this is worse than a rationalization for caving.  It’s a pathetic abdication by the Obama administration and OFA of their duty to reelect the President and get a Democratic majority in Congress.  I get your point about them being human and all but they were hired to do a job, and that job is not to read blogs all day and whine about how the Professional Left is hurting their fee fees.

Comment #64: DonnaDiva  on  09/06  at  06:11 PM

Yeah, AnonDog, progressivism has totally failed, in spite of a century of enthusiastic support from all of our nation’s leaders — I remember how the previous four presidents tried extremely hard to follow FDR’s program.

MikeEss, you mean that didn’t already happen?

Comment #65: Josh  on  09/06  at  07:45 PM

Whereas the feudalism that the rightists want to bring back has such a stellar record of working out for the majority of people, going back thousands of years.

Comment #66: DonnaDiva  on  09/06  at  08:01 PM

40 years of Republican dogma swaying how our government works: has created this economic depression.

The prosperous years in the United States (I’m old enough to remember them!) were all after Democrats governed like Democrats (progressively) with Republican moderates as the loyal opposition.

But the moderate Republican has become extinct, replaced by triangulating Democrats following the bat shit crazy Republican lemmings off the cliff.

For nearly a century, we’ve had recessions (or a depression) after each Republican regime: with only Democratic presidents and congress pulling us out of the fire.

In fact, every leading economists takes to task the Obama administration (and the Congress) for following the path of the failed Republican meme: cutting taxes and saving the top 1% elite at the cost to the middle class and poor.

But keep repeating the talking points of your masters anonymousdog, there’s still some middle class left to be erradicated.

Comment #67: judybrowni  on  09/06  at  08:18 PM

“If things aren’t working out the way Herbert Croly and Franklin Roosevelt promised, then maybe it’s time for a change.”

The last real Democrat we had for president was Lyndon Johnson.  The ball has been in the “conservative’s” court ever since.  If things went into the toilet since Nixon, then you own it.

People like you think you’re being all bold and innovative with your calls for the destruction of all things liberal/progressive.  You’re too dense to see you’ve already destroyed them. 

“Liberals” serve the same function in today’s political environment that Emmanuel Goldstein served in the world of 1984: a constant enemy, who can never quite be captured, but we’re always closing in on him/them, but we never quite seal the deal, some people claim to have seen ‘em but nobody knows for sure, they’re probably mythical, but even if they ever really existed the world USA hasn’t seen their like in a very long time.

You assholes succeeded.  You’ve made America into the political and economic cesspit it is today.  The question now is when you’ll take your toys and go home so the adults can clean up the disgusting mess you’ve left behind…

Comment #68: MikeEss  on  09/06  at  08:22 PM

Congratulations, anonymous, your side is winning!

Mission accomplished: Tea party Republicans took the economy hostage and killed job growth

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/09/02/1012857/-Mission-accomplished:-Tea-party-Republicans-took-the-economy-hostage-and-killed-job-growth?via=blog_589703

Comment #69: judybrowni  on  09/06  at  09:35 PM

AnonymousDog, I’m pretty convinced that you’re a false flag troll. Next time you might want to choose a less obvious nickname and be more subtly ignorant when trying to discredit the group you’re pretending to be part of.

Comment #70: curiouscliche  on  09/06  at  09:54 PM

Both Atrios and Digby are guilty, over and over again, of failing to realize that when Obama “caves” there aren’t just Republicans he’s trying to placate.  He’s also trying to deal with keeping _Democrats_ in line.  And in this case, Rust Belt Democrats who run the gamut from Sherrod Brown (yay!) to Joe Manchin (hiss!) pushed him not to implement this regulation. 

So picture this.  If you’re Obama, and a bunch of Senators come to you and say, “Look, man, about that EPA smog regulation, I’ve got people from back home on my ass about it, and I’ve got job losses piling up, and I don’t want to have to face a bunch of angry people who’ve been told that the plant isn’t reopening because of some tree-hugger bullshit.  If it blows up, I’m telling you, I might lose.  And I’m not the only one.  Please, put it off, and buy me some time.”  If that happens, do you say, “No goddamn way, this is bigger than all that, so just suck it up and get used to it”?  Or do you say, “Fine, I’ll be the punching bag again, but none of you had better cause me any problems about the jobs bill I’ll be introducing in a few days”?

Because, if you remember the debate over the “Bush tax cuts,” Obama wanted to detach the ones for the wealthy from the ones for everyone else, and have multiple votes, and shame the Republicans for it.  And then _Democrats_ who were up for reelection pleaded with him not to do it.  Including Feingold.  Including Boxer.  And nobody here will forget how that same thing happened with the Stupak group.

Sometimes when Obama caves to policy preferences that seem to skew Republican, what’s really happening is that a group of Democrats who adhere to Republican views, or who want to avoid inflaming Republican voters, are putting him in that position.  Not that he’s a wuss and probably a covert Republican doing exactly what he always wanted, but that the Democrats he has to work with get cold feet and, to mix a metaphor, leave him holding the bag.

Comment #71: FlipYrWhig  on  09/07  at  12:35 AM

Complying to protect the environment makes more above median jobs than it takes away.  It’s just an outright lie that regulations kill jobs.

You know what kills jobs?  Using up more resources than can be replaced.  If you cut down all the trees today - like the companies who fought the spotted owl protections - you don’t have a job tomorrow.  You have to wait fifty years for the trees to come back… And that’s a long time to be unemployed or without a nest.

Comment #72: Crissa  on  09/07  at  01:51 AM

Sometimes when Obama caves to policy preferences that seem to skew Republican, what’s really happening is that a group of Democrats who adhere to Republican views, or who want to avoid inflaming Republican voters, are putting him in that position.

Give a specific example, as your rationalization has no support in reality from what I can tell from the available evidence.

Comment #73: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/07  at  09:12 AM

AnonymousDog is the one who got upset in the dealbreaker thread that people are allowed to refuse to be friends with him because he’s a reactionary idiot. I have a feeling he’s genuine.

Comment #74: junk science  on  09/07  at  10:21 AM

Sometimes when Obama caves to policy preferences that seem to skew Republican, what’s really happening is that a group of Democrats who adhere to Republican views, or who want to avoid inflaming Republican voters, are putting him in that position.

Usually, this group includes Obama.

Comment #75: wnoise  on  09/07  at  11:55 AM

Come on, @ Dark Avenger, I give two examples in the post itself:  Democrats pleading with Obama to take a Republican-friendly position on upper-income taxes, and the same thing happening just now with pollution regulations.  _Liberal Democrats_ pushing Obama towards illiberal positions on issues that affect their reelection chances.

Comment #76: FlipYrWhig  on  09/07  at  02:43 PM

The piles of people here saying Obama ‘caves’ or ‘reports to his corporate masters’ or whatever seems to ignore the fact that there are people with opinion that aren’t themselves.

Obama can’t change the voters that choose these policies, and he can’t change the media.  Your wishing the world isn’t the way it is won’t help anyone but Republicans win.

I’m sick and tired of trolls masquerading as leftists who parrot centrist Republican memes, that Democrats are just as bad as they are.

Comment #77: Crissa  on  09/07  at  03:02 PM

Find me a Republican who voted against free trade and you’ll find me Ron Paul.

Republicans get to lie about their positions.  Democrats don’t.  Republicans get to lie about their opponents’ positions.  Democrats don’t even get to tell the truth.  How are we supposed to win in a media environment like this?

Comment #78: Crissa  on  09/07  at  03:04 PM

Democrats pleading with Obama to take a Republican-friendly position on upper-income taxes,

Or on extending unemployment benefits:

Republicans and conservative Democrats have opposed reauthorizing the benefits without offsetting their deficit impact by cutting spending from elsewhere in the budget. But those same lawmakers have not insisted that tax cuts for the rich, estimated to cost nearly $700 billion over 10 years, be offset in any way. A yearlong reauthorization of unemployment benefits would cost roughly $60 billion.

Sometimes when Obama caves to policy preferences that seem to skew Republican, what’s really happening is that a group of Democrats who adhere to Republican views, or who want to avoid inflaming Republican voters, are putting him in that position.  Not that he’s a wuss and probably a covert Republican doing exactly what he always wanted, but that the Democrats he has to work with get cold feet and, to mix a metaphor, leave him holding the bag.

Yep, I should believe you over my lying eyes.

 

Comment #79: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/07  at  03:39 PM

And have done and will continue to do because we’re—-as I’ve noted before—-in a cycle where conservatives still have the rhetorical upper hand, though that is thankfully fading.

How is it fading? Not that I’m saying you’re wrong, Amanda, just want to know what you consider to be the evidence that it’s fading.

Comment #80: Erda  on  09/09  at  12:03 PM
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