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Next entry: The Onion takes on Nice Guys®, but doesn’t have a comments section to whine in Previous entry: Relevant, Other Than The Losing

Homobigotry: More like sexism or racism? Try both.

When I saw this item posted at Slog linking to an article at Slate that seems to be expressing something I’ve been saying for a long time—-that same-sex marriage is in fact a threat to “traditional” marriage—-I got excited.  Now, at this point, “protecting traditional marriage” has slipped into a status of euphemism for straight up bigotry.  The noticeable thing about the phrase is that it was used in homobigot materials in the same way that “pro-life” is used in anti-choice materials, as a shorthand way to avoid saying outright, “We are working to deny people their basic rights.”  The reason that it’s moved from being a genuine argument to a euphemism is pretty simple: Homobigots realize they can’t come out and explain what “protecting traditional marriage” means.  To the non-crazy, the statement reads as if you’re saying that your marriage is somehow less committed and less loving, and when you confront the homobigots with this, they’re sort of stuck because the only legitimate answer is to admit that, to the religious right, marriage is less about love and companionship than it is about social order and subjugating women. 

Not to say that they don’t think love and companionship are important, because they do.  But when you prize love and companionship over female subjugation and social order, then you are also forced to approve of premarital sex, homosexuality, cohabitation, reproductive rights, and even openly impermanent relationships, including young people’s.  Love—-erotic and friendly—-gives people ideas.  Men who value love over female subjugation are easily recruited as feminist allies, because their love of the women in their lives inclines them to want to see those women do well.*  “Traditional” marriage is about policing love and keeping it within its place in the hierarchy.  But in modern times, we define love in romantic terms to a degree that’s so popular that conservatives have to work within that framework and refuse to admit, perhaps even to themselves, that they see it otherwise.**  Same-sex marriage supporters see this issue about love, and opponents see it about hierarchy, so we’re talking past each other. 


Opponents see same-sex marriage as the final nail in the coffin for “traditional” marriage, and I don’t think they’re off track on that.  Some proponents of same-sex marriage have declared traditional marriage dead already: Women have a right to own property and sue for divorce.  Wife beating isn’t tolerated as a man’s basic right.  Women can have jobs, and keep the money they earn if they want to.  Women can keep their names if they want to.

And this is where I part ways with this argument, because while it’s true that women have (mostly) legal equality in marriage, socially we still construct marriage as a relationship between a man and “his” wife, and the name thing proves it.  Women have a legal right to keep their own names, but practically speaking most women don’t enjoy that right—-most women don’t keep their names, and it’s in no small part because it never really seemed like an option open to them, in no small part because most men get a bug up their ass about it.  But it’s not just the name thing.  Women clean more, cook more, engage in more child care, and earn less (though finally women’s income is seen as bread-winning instead of just pin money).  Which brings me to what I liked about Richard Thompson Ford’s article in Slate:

fter all, traditional marriage isn’t just analogous to sex discrimination—it is sex discrimination: Only men may marry women, and only women may marry men. Same-sex marriage would transform an institution that currently defines two distinctive sex roles—husband and wife—by replacing those different halves with one sex-neutral role—spouse. Sure, we could call two married men “husbands” and two married women “wives,” but the specific role for each sex that now defines marriage would be lost.

I think that for people who understand what “protecting traditional marriage” means, this is absolutely true.  They correctly perceive that the law is far ahead of society in regards to women’s rights, and suspect that a massive redefinition of “marriage” would clue more people into the fact that marriage really is more about love and companionship now than it is about female subjugation.  I’m not so sure, myself.  We’re not shaking off gender roles that easily.  But it’s true that same sex marriage would slowly relieve women in the same way that cohabitation has slowly relieved women.  (Women who cohabit with men see their male partners share a little more housework, though women still do most of it, for instance.  Cohabitation makes keeping your own name a lot easier of a sell, too, because marriage is a smaller deal, giving men less leverage in the fight when you move from cohabiting to marrying.)  This is where I break with Ford:

Widespread opposition to same-sex marriage might reflect a desire to hang on to these distinctive sex roles rather than vicious anti-gay bigotry. By wistfully invoking the analogy to racism, same-sex marriage proponents risk misreading a large (and potentially movable) group of voters who care about sex difference more than about sexual orientation.

His evidence is that said people are willing to extend domestic partnership benefits to gay people.  I don’t think you can separate gender anxiety (which he rightfully realizes is what’s driving the opposition) from bigotry—-bigotry is what anxious people cling to.  Gender anxious people lash out against gay people, against young women who don’t hate themselves for being sexual, against “bitchy” women like Hillary Clinton, and against men who like pink or show tunes.  This is all bigotry.  It’s true that there’s different levels of bigotry.  One bigot might march around with a “Gays=Pervert” sign. and another might think that’s crass, and loves watching porn of women getting it on but feels uncomfortable when he comes across a real life lesbian who dresses butch.  That’s why reaching for analogies to racism is so apt, even though he’s 100% right that this is sex discrimination.  Because racism, and all the levels of it, is a form of bigotry people really understand.  We understand the difference between a white supremacist and someone who just tenses up when a group of black kids gets on the subway.  It’s applicable in this case.  Some bigots just want to ban gays from the planet, and others just want them to be second class.  The latter group can be appealed to by making them feel bad about being bigots. 

Civil rights law reflects this ambivalence about sex difference. While constitutional law applies “strict scrutiny” to racial distinctions and federal employment law condemns race discrimination in almost all its forms, there’s no such comprehensiveness with respect to sex. Sex discrimination is not subject to the same exacting scrutiny as race discrimination under constitutional law, and federal employment law allows many types of it. For instance, courts have routinely upheld workplace rules that enforce sex-specific dress and grooming norms against legal challenge. Employers lawfully can require women to wear makeup and feminine attire and prohibit men from wearing jewelry and long hair.

He’s right about this, and this is why it’s smart of gay rights activists to allude to struggles for racial equality more than gender equality.  If people are ambivalent about gender equality, then that’s not a very good cause to hitch yours to, from a practical standpoint.  And really, gender and race bigotry aren’t all that different at their base.  They play out differently, and intersect in ever-complicated ways, but both are rooted in a belief that certain groups of people are inherently inferior and should be relegated to service roles because of it.  Plus, racial discrimination has a direct analogy for the gay marriage movement, which is the old ban on interracial marriage.  That sort of direct analogy shouldn’t be abandoned as a rhetorical tactic.  It keeps people focused, for one thing.

By contrast, they can’t have one set of grooming rules for white employees and another one for black employees. Civil rights laws explicitly allow employers to defend a claim of sex discrimination by arguing that male or female sex is itself a job requirement—say, for prison guards who do strip searches or for restroom attendants. By contrast, as a matter of federal law, no job can be the exclusive province of white people, or black people, or Asians or Latinos.

He’s too sanguine about institutionalized racism.  It’s true that you can’t have different grooming rules—-but racists don’t even try.  They have a single grooming rule that tends to favor white people over black people.  For instance, a lot of workplaces have a list of acceptable hairstyles that are natural for most white people, but are a pain in the ass for most black people.  That’s “one standard”, and it’s a racist one.  A lot of sex discrimination works the same way, holding men and women to the same standard that’s defined around men’s bodies and men’s lives. 

The model of bigotry instead of gender anxiety might seem a little off if you think about it analytically, but as a rhetorical strategy, it’s killer.  On a person-to-person level, hostility to gay rights is a form of bigotry that emotionally resembles racist bigotry.  There’s discomfort around the targeted people that can be relieved through exposure.  There’s segregation that minimizes that exposure.  There’s an obsession with defining what makes someone a member of the oppressed class.  There’s legal maneuvering to keep the targeted group in a second class position.  It makes a lot of sense, and I think it’s working.  The proponents of Prop 8 nearly lost, and were only able to scratch out a win by blatantly lying to the public, claiming that religious freedom was the real issue, not gay rights.  Next go-round, they’ll probably have to argue that the law will mean that straight people will be forced to have gay sex in order to scratch out the 51% they need.


*Research has borne this out—-legislators with daughters are far more likely to support reproductive rights than men without.  For a lot of men, a daughter is a woman you love to a degree you don’t love even your wife or your mother, so this makes sense.
**The most fascinating example of this is the mythology that runs the abstinence-only movement.  Girls are told that love is a paradox—-that the passion of love can only exist if you strictly police passion, that men are fickle creatures whose passions are only provoked by women who have no visible passions.  It’s, like many conservative attitudes about sex, profoundly anti-male. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 02:27 PM • (61) Comments

Well done, AM.  I work in a profoundly sexist, racist, and homophobic environment, and it is a petri dish of the issues you discuss here.  One of the most fascinating phenomena on my job—one that dovetails nicely with this post—is the issue of divorce among my colleagues.  The majority of those who divorce seem to go through bitter, protracted procedures that leave them feeling violated (financially and emotionally) by their exes and by the court system.  In light of what you write here—about ‘traditional’ marriage being more about enforcing gender roles than about love—I’d say that what beats these guys to death is their investment in the system itself, a system which has evolved to offer women some potential of financial recompense and social security in exchange for years of living in a position of domestic servitude.  Going forward, I’ll have to fight the urge to tell such men that they’d be a lot better off if they’d had more equitable marriages.  I’ll really have to fight the urge to advise them to marry men next time around.

Comment #1: Church Secretary  on  11/18  at  02:51 PM

“Traditional marriage” in the Abrahamic religions has always been about property and inheritance rights and the subjugation of women (the woman passed from being the property of her father or brothers to being the property of her husband.)

And women were property. A law only removed from the statute book in Britain permitted a man to “beat his wife so long as the stick he used was no thicker than his thumb.”

Do you know why virginity was (still is in some religions) so prized and why adultery is such a crime? It stems from a primitive belief that if a woman has been penetrated by a man her husband’s seed would be adulterated for ever by that of her other lover. Thus a woman who was not a virging was deemed impure and unmarriageable. Which explains why a young girl in Somalia was stoned earlier this month for the crime of allowing herself to be raped.

Love my arse.  What confuses me about this whole non-issue is why same sex couples want to get involved with this discredited and obsolete institution. I wish the gay community would stop whining about their rights and exercise their right to educate themselves. Marriage is a stupid, archaic notion or at best an excuse for a party. And who needs an excuse to have a party?

Comment #2: Ian Thorpe  on  11/18  at  02:55 PM

Some bigots just want to ban gays from the planet, and others just want them to be second class.  The latter group can be appealed to by making them feel bad about being bigots.

We see that in play with the pro-Prop 8 commenters here. Yes, a few (e.g. tomonthebay, Osti, larry) are the first type—very open about their irrational bigotry. But most of the others (“bob zimmerman” most notably) have struggled to make a legal case for Prop 8, going on about “judicial activism” and how Prop 8 represents “democracy at its best.” When asked in clear language to address the fundamental problem of a (slim) majority of voters introducing discriminatory language into a state constitution, however, they run away. Same goes for their junk-science claims about “dangerous lifestyles” and promiscuity, and for their protestations that the “traditional marriage” of the mythical 1950s is some sort human constant.

Calling these types out on their BS also denies the more casual bigot the luxury of hiding their hate and fear behind a reasonable-sounding smokescreen.

Comment #3: Gracchus  on  11/18  at  02:58 PM

What confuses me about this whole non-issue is why same sex couples want to get involved with this discredited and obsolete institution.

On a personal level, it confuses me, too. But my personal views on the institution of marriage don’t matter when we’re discussing a civil rights issue.

A state-recognised marriage confers an instant package deal of useful legal rights on a couple that’s difficult to replicate in other ways. And in a republic based on the Founding Fathers’ clearly-stated ideals, it’s unacceptable for that package of legal rights to be barred from a particular class of law-abiding citizen for any reason, let alone on the basis bigotry or religious fantasism.

This is why I think transferring that package from a Marriage License to a Civil Union License (available to any citizen—no “separate but equal”) would take the wind out of the religious fantasists’ sails. At that point, “marriage” becomes a ceremony with no meaning to the state. And whether they get the Civil Union License alone or with religious mumbo-jumbo on the side, homosexuals will have the ability to enter into an ultra-risky and archaic contract without any hassle—just like everyone else.

Comment #4: Gracchus  on  11/18  at  03:14 PM

By wistfully invoking the analogy to racism, same-sex marriage proponents risk misreading a large (and potentially movable) group of voters who care about sex difference more than about sexual orientation.

Both/and?

Seriously, neither form of bigotry is acceptable, and I don’t see why we need to throw either women or TLGBQ folk under the bus and make them ‘wait their turn’.

Comment #5: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/18  at  03:19 PM

Ian, I’m with you that the institution may be irredeemable.  But we’re a minority—-most people think that marriage can indeed be redefined as being about erotic and egalitarian love.  But it doesn’t matter, because if we’re right, same sex marriage is a step on the road to the end of marriage.  If they’re right, same sex marriage is a step on the road to a completely redefined marriage.  Either option is fine with me—-I’m not stuck on being right.  In the larger scheme, we all have the same goal of prizing people above institutions, sexual freedom, love, and equality.  Keeping our eyes on this prize makes a lot of the minor quibbles go away.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/18  at  03:20 PM

I think homophobia manifests itself in a way closer to racism then sexism, although I certainly agree about the role of gender anxiety in homophobia. Homophobia has more often manifested itself in a level of violence that is often reserved for racial minorities or ethnic groups. Its the right wing politicians suggesting gay men be sent off to “camps” to stop AIDS, for instance, or the beatings and violent deaths of gay men and women all across America. I think it’s about our lack of visibility historically and how it has been easier to “other” us in a way similar to racial groups.

Comment #7: AdamN  on  11/18  at  03:31 PM

<blockquote.What confuses me about this whole non-issue is why same sex couples want to get involved with this discredited and obsolete institution.</blockquote>

It doesn’t surprise me. Life can be lonely. Many people, even if they do not believe in ‘traditional marriage’, want a partner that they are ceremonially tied to.

Comment #8: atheist  on  11/18  at  03:35 PM

This was a great post.  I finally understand what the bigots mean by “destroying traditional marriage.”  They mean making the sex roles meaningless, and that can’t be done with separate-but-equal civil unions, or even civil unions for everyone, as the idea of “marriage” would solely be a religious concept, but the gender role baggage and the special elevated status would still be there - it’s the equivalent to what we have now, where women’s rights are theoretically codified as equal in law, but in practice it doesn’t work out that way.

Comment #9: Ugly In Pink  on  11/18  at  03:36 PM

Really excellent post, BTW. Philosophical, practical, & strategic.

Comment #10: atheist  on  11/18  at  03:39 PM

This says it all…

“traditional marriage isn’t just analogous to sex discrimination—it is sex discrimination: Only men may marry women, and only women may marry men. Same-sex marriage would transform an institution that currently defines two distinctive sex roles—husband and wife—by replacing those different halves with one sex-neutral role—spouse. Sure, we could call two married men “husbands” and two married women “wives,” but the specific role for each sex that now defines marriage would be lost.”

What people (mostly men IMO) fera is the loss of their DEFINED role in the relationship. You hear this when people “joke” about “who’s the woman in that relationship?” when talking about same sex couples. Meaning, “who does the laundry and cooking vs. who drinks the beer & watches football?”.

Sorry for all the quotes.

Comment #11: Mark  on  11/18  at  03:48 PM

See, that’s exactly why same-sex marriage is a bad idea. If you have two women married to each other, they’re just going to be squabbling all the time, trying to hog up all the cooking and housecleaning chores for themselves. The house will be clean and womanly, but at what price? And does a tidy house matter if there is no man there to appreciate the unpaid labor?

And if you have two men married to each other, the lawn will look fantastic but dirty laundry and pizza boxes will be piled to the rafters. And the fellas will surely squabble because their need to dominate a woman will go unfulfilled.

grin

Comment #12: Orange  on  11/18  at  03:53 PM

I’m totally taking my boy’s last name…because it’s sexy! and he’s already said I don’t have to.

Comment #13: stephanie  on  11/18  at  03:57 PM

I agree with Ian and Amanda that marriage would be better replaced with civil unions for *everyone*.  I personally don’t like the entire concept of marriage because I don’t believe we can shed its historical (and oftentimes, current) baggage of gender roles, ownership etc…  Having said that, I am married.  Why?  Because of exactly the bag of goodies that comes with marriage.  I lived in wonderful harmony and joy with my s.o. for 8 years before getting married.  Once we decided that I should work and he should stay home, the financial advantages of being wed became a lot clearer than our philosophical arguments against it.  I married for money wink  And until we can separate the financial and legal realities from the word and law of marriage, then same-sex couples must have the right to cynically exploit marriage in the same way as straight people like me.  (And if they insist on being romantic and introducing love into marriage, well, some people are just weird that way)

Comment #14: undomestic duck  on  11/18  at  04:02 PM

Men who value love over female subjugation are easily recruited as feminist allies, because their love of the women in their lives inclines them to want to see those women do well.

Easier, not easy. I consider that description to apply to myself, and it wasn’t “easy,” it just wasn’t “damn near impossible” like it would be for men who have their values backwards.

Comment #15: MH  on  11/18  at  04:02 PM

I think there’s a closer analogue than gender or race bigotry: religious discrimination.  Gays are the new Jews.  When someone says, “Hate the sin, love the sinner,” they’re essentially saying that they hate Judaism.  Isn’t denying the divinity of JC a sin, after all?  Isn’t rejecting the annointed one a far graver sin than being gay?  Not to mention that Jewish marriage follows different traditions and religious laws than Christian marriage, so wouldn’t allowing Jews to marry be a rejection of “traditional” marriage?  And think of the children!  A child raised by Jewish parents is more likely to be Jewish, and therefore be less likely to reject sin.  And what about Hindus?  Ba’hais?  Scientologists?

If Christians in this country go around allowing Jews and other assorted pagans to commit their sins in public, to adopt children, to hold hands in public without fear of violence, then why not gays?

Comment #16: asb  on  11/18  at  04:07 PM

And while a lot of people reject the narrow and repressive sex roles of the past, many others long for the kind of meaningful gender identities that traditional marriage seems to offer.

I agree—this his the nail on the head.  The arguments over gay marriage (and also the ones about “pro-life” people who oppose contraception) always bring me back to Kristin Luker’s Abortion and the Politics of Motherhood—the distinction is between people who view women’s ultimate role as a wife and mother and those who don’t.

Great post, Amanda.

Comment #17: Fashionably Evil  on  11/18  at  04:12 PM

For a lot of men, a daughter is a woman you love to a degree you don’t love even your wife or your mother, so this makes sense.

I guess this is the misanthropist in me talking, but I’ll be damned if most married couples love each other.  I’ve witnessed plenty of relationships that started out with love that ultimately faded away, and I know many more couples who, as far as I can tell, settled for companionship and stability over love.

Comment #18: keshmeshi  on  11/18  at  04:26 PM

and he’s already said I don’t have to.

I would, too, if I thought that strategy worked.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/18  at  04:32 PM

My wife and I figured that the path of least work was for neither of us to change our names - just because of the number of services we’d need to contact to report the change.

Comment #20: Dolbia  on  11/18  at  04:50 PM

Actually the notion of *companionate* marriage—that your spouse is a “partner” with whom you have a strong bond of mutual affection—is pretty old in western culture.

For northwest Europe, it goes as far back as we have reliable records (twelfth century!), if *age at marriage* is any indication (equal age signifies companionate marriage to anthropologically-minded historical researchers). Avg. age for NW Europe for 12th-15th centuries was about 20-22 years old, both partners.

The medieval Mediterranean world had a pattern of men in their 30s marrying women in their mid-teens, and increasingly patriarchal-misogynist ideologies of marriage to match.

Medieval canon law actually held that no ceremony or intercourse—or even witnesses—was required to be legally married - just an exchange of words of present consent (or of future consent followed by intercourse). Marriage was defined as a bond of two hearts willed by God directly, with no meddling by third parties, not even the Church. That expresses an ideal pretty far from the notion of marriage as a business arrangement between extended family groups.

So we’ve been pretty confused and hazy about the institution of marriage for some centuries now. The only sure thing has been that’s its a partnership of someone who passes for male with someone who passes for female.

But even there, the potential to undermine that old certainty is inherent in the companionate model, I think.

Comment #21: wapsie  on  11/18  at  04:56 PM

My wife and I figured that the path of least work was for neither of us to change our names - just because of the number of services we’d need to contact to report the change.

Yeah, it always boggles my mind how many women actually do change their names, because it is SO MUCH GODDAMN WORK. I mean, wouldn’t basic human laziness suggest that you just would never get around to it half the time?

But then, I got married while 7 months pregnant, in a maternity tunic and pants, at a justice of the peace, so what do I know about how much hassle people are willing to put up with to get married?

Comment #22: Alara Rogers  on  11/18  at  04:59 PM

@ Ian Thorpe—

Be careful with sweeping historical generalizations. History of marriage is actually pretty complex, starting with the distinction between what prescriptive texts say and what people actually do.

For much of history, Christianity was actually rather down on the whole idea of marriage (part of a package of down on any institution invented and maintained by sinful humanity). It was approved, of course (Paul’s better to marry than to burn, etc.), but until the Reformation taking monastic vows and/or preserving virginity permanently was regarded as a vastly superior condition.

Comment #23: wapsie  on  11/18  at  05:03 PM

Neither of us has changed names, and it serves among other things as a good clueless filter in dealing with the outside world. I think I get addressed as Mr <hername> about as often as she gets addressed as Mrs <myname>. We had to amend the certificates of live birth so that the kids would be listed as X and Y <myname> (patriarchal, I know, but I take the excuse that otherwise my surname would be gone completely with my generation). But the older kid has decided that the cat is <Catsname> <Hername>...

I think Amanda is absolutely right about traditional marriage as sexism embodied, and that’s one of the reasons this whole fight has been so hard rhetorically. When they say they’re defending marriage, we straight liberals think of marriages like ours, which don’t really need defending by law—and if anything, are threatened by the kinds of laws the religious wingnuts want to pass. It’s like passing a law to defend “southern tradition”.

And when they say same-sex marriage threatens their marriages, they’re ultimately right. So does every marriage between two people who go into their union with an attitude of equality rather than master/follower. They’re just wrong that same-sex marriage threatens “marriage”.

Comment #24: paul  on  11/18  at  05:09 PM

Great post, Amanda, and your comment at 1:20 was like an epiphany for me.

Comment #25: jericho  on  11/18  at  05:20 PM

Also if the case is “I’m only listening to you complain about your boyfriend in hopes you’ll let me fuck you,” who is the one being dishonest or not “reciprocal”?

Comment #26: blucas!  on  11/18  at  05:57 PM

AdamN:

I think homophobia manifests itself in a way closer to racism then sexism, although I certainly agree about the role of gender anxiety in homophobia. Homophobia has more often manifested itself in a level of violence that is often reserved for racial minorities or ethnic groups.

Hm, no. If you’re using manifestations of violence as a benchmark for which -ism is “worse,” you’re not going to get very far in implying that sexism doesn’t manifest itself in violence. The difference between sexism and racism isn’t in the level of violence, its in the relative publicity of that violence. Racist violence often takes place semi-communally and in public, while sexist violence much more often takes place individually and in private.

Comment #27: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  11/18  at  06:12 PM

I am realizing my marriage has a balance problem.  I do the cooking and drink the beer, and he watches the football, but tragically nobody does the laundry until it reaches desperate levels.  Clearly we need a wife.

Comment #28: lonespark  on  11/18  at  06:16 PM

Ms. F and I desperately need a wife, esp now that we have a six-week-old daughter who produces a truly eye-popping amount of laundry.

Comment #29: felagund  on  11/18  at  06:47 PM

most women don’t keep their names,

Hmm - any actual data on that, or is that just your gut feeling?

Marriage has been declining notably here for the last couple of decades, and I believe the majority of children now born here are technically “outside marriage”.  It’s my impression that the wife adopting her husband’s name is becoming less usual - any stats for the States?

Comment #30: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/18  at  07:14 PM

I think it’s fruitless to cop out of linking homophobia/heterosexism to racism and I think the notion that gays shouldn’t/can’t make those connections actually comes from racist, homophobic people much more often than it comes from well-intentioned queers, anti-racists, and allies. The key is that these things are not just “like” each other, they’re bound together. They’re linked. We never win when we fight against one of them without fighting the others, which is the reason “traditional marriage” still has so much power. If our tradition is to uphold white supremacy, heterosexism, and women-as-property, then pulling one leg out from under that stool isn’t enough—you still have a crappy piece of furniture built of oppression.

Comment #31: serena kitt  on  11/18  at  07:41 PM

Actual data usually says that 90% of women change their names. It’s been cited around here before, but I forget where.

(Yeah, I know, not helpful. But you are clearly considered a freak of nature if you don’t take his on some level, culturally.)

Comment #32: Jennifer  on  11/18  at  07:51 PM

“I finally understand what the bigots mean by “destroying traditional marriage.” They mean making the sex roles meaningless, and that can’t be done with separate-but-equal civil unions, or even civil unions for everyone, as the idea of “marriage” would solely be a religious concept.”

Yep.  Awesome post Amanda.

Comment #33: raspberryjamba  on  11/18  at  08:12 PM

this post is great!

Comment #34: kate  on  11/18  at  08:52 PM

For much of history, Christianity was actually rather down on the whole idea of marriage (part of a package of down on any institution invented and maintained by sinful humanity). It was approved, of course (Paul’s better to marry than to burn, etc.), but until the Reformation taking monastic vows and/or preserving virginity permanently was regarded as a vastly superior condition.

wapsie on 11/18 at 03:03 PM

And I beleive it was LUther that had a hand in the change though (from God-ordained to church sanctioned)?

Comment #35: phylosopher  on  11/18  at  09:38 PM

For instance, a lot of workplaces have a list of acceptable hairstyles that are natural for most white people, but are a pain in the ass for most black people

I’m curious, what sort of places have rules like that? The only places I can think of with hair-related rules are in food service…

Do you know why virginity was (still is in some religions) so prized and why adultery is such a crime?

Because of issues of paternity? Human women are “deceptive*” by mammal standards when it comes to reproduction, so it’s pretty understandable that men wanted to make sure their children were their children.

*I refer to the concealed ovulation of Homo sapiens, not intentional deceit.

Comment #36: Devonian  on  11/18  at  09:59 PM

Because of issues of paternity? Human women are “deceptive*” by mammal standards when it comes to reproduction, so it’s pretty understandable that men wanted to make sure their children were their children.

Only if you’re also assuming that the man has property he wants to pass along to “his” children.  In societies where people own very little or everything is owned collectively, there really aren’t any issues of paternity.  It’s only when you get into situations of inheritance that it becomes an issue—which is why marriage was primarily for the rich who wanted to protect their inheritances and estates.  Peasants didn’t bother to get married, because they had nothing that needed to be protected.

Comment #37: Mnemosyne  on  11/18  at  10:07 PM

I’m curious, what sort of places have rules like that? The only places I can think of with hair-related rules are in food service…

Dreds and Afros are a no-no in many offices where a (white) ponytail or loose hair is acceptable.

Comment #38: Rebecca  on  11/18  at  10:37 PM

Actual data usually says that 90% of women change their names.

That high, still?  I would have thought it would be less, but I have no firm basis for that judgement.  Thanks, Jennifer.

Comment #39: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/18  at  11:20 PM

Can I just say I love the cluelessness involved in asking people who follow traditional Judaism or traditional Islam to think about what they learned in Sunday School?

Comment #40: Samantha Vimes  on  11/18  at  11:35 PM

Blast! Somehow, my computer skipped back to the wrong topic.

Comment #41: Samantha Vimes  on  11/18  at  11:35 PM

Can I just say I love the cluelessness involved in asking people who follow traditional Judaism or traditional Islam to think about what they learned in Sunday School?

“Shit - I took a wrong turning at the last corridor.  Okaaaay, shuffle away slowly…”

Comment #42: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/19  at  12:42 AM

A really good, eye-opening post.

re: name changes.  Yep, it’s still terribly high, though percentages probably vary by region.  I’m in the Upper Midwest, and of the ten young married couples I know (including Mr. A and me.), I am the only woman who has kept her name.  Actually, of all the married woman I have ever known IRL, I am one of three who kept her name, and my cousin changed hers after they started having kids. 

Even women who are pretty progressive in other areas cave in, either to the general societal expectation that you’re not really married unless you change your name, or to their spouse’s pressure.  The worst part is, enough awareness has seeped through that some of the women feel sort of ashamed of changing it, and come up with the stupidest rationalizations for it.

Comment #43: Karinna A.  on  11/19  at  01:59 AM

“Girls are told that love is a paradox—-that the passion of love can only exist if you strictly police passion, that men are fickle creatures whose passions are only provoked by women who have no visible passions.”

So well put.  Thanks.

Comment #44: Lisa KS  on  11/19  at  03:36 AM

it ate my post! i will try to recreate it

Orange: “And does a tidy house matter if there is no man there to appreciate the unpaid labor?”
this presumes that a man appreciates unpaid labor. in my experience, no one does; if something is not paid for, it is assumed to be value-less

re: hair. my boyriend manages a Dakota Watch store. he is black. he used to have the most adorable hair, little squishy puffballs, sorta mini-afro-pigtails. when he started at Dakota, they said he could only have one ponytail, centered at the nape of his neck. when he became manager, they made him cut it. despite the fact that the MALL manager has dreadlocks - it seems that “ethnic hair” intimidates shoppers or some such shit.

re: names. i have put my foot down. we won’t get married unless he takes mine. there are no males in my generation. and i’m the eldest. and besides, his last name is Taylor. my name is Elizabeth. i REFUSE.

REFUSE.

my dad likes this plan. he has offered to adopt the guy. hell, if we ever break up, i think my dad will keep HIM instead of me! my dad introduces my guy to every one “Meet my son”. its so incredibly great… my guy has not family but us anymore, except for a brother he has not contact with. i’ve actually considered really just having my dad adopt him, as he jokes, so if something happens to me (i’m a medical mess at the moment), legally they are still family…

Comment #45: denelian  on  11/19  at  05:09 AM

Dan,
I didn’t mean to imply that there is a lack of violence in sexism just that the violence in homophobia and racism operates in more radical “other-izing”. Women have been subjected to horrible treatment but they are generally seen by the right as having a place in their world (even if that place is really fucking wrong). Their world cannot operate without women, they just want women to be permanently oppressed. This is a little different, I think, to the hard rights views at various times of certain ethnic (Jews) and racial groups (Blacks) and homosexuals. There are many points where it seems that the right just would like to remove these groups from existence and there a few times with some of these groups they have tried to do just that.

Comment #46: AdamN  on  11/19  at  06:53 AM

That said, to make myself clear, the whole “my rights struggle has had a tougher time then your rights struggle” thing is total crap.
I just think understanding the idea of the Other is important in terms of helping us win equality for LGBT and I think that idea puts the gay rights movement closer to the Black civil rights movement even if there are still many, many important ties with the Women’s rights/Feminist movement as well.
The Other is one reason why it is so important for people to come out and for homophobic straight people to see more examples of LGBT families. They need to see us, instead of believing in TEH GAYS!

Comment #47: AdamN  on  11/19  at  07:08 AM

I think it ate my last post, but the main point is this:

Civil unions for all increasingly makes sense in my mind; marriage is, after all, a religiously defined sacrament. Virtually all religions have definitions of the rights and responsibilities of married persons to one another, and they do differ on various points - including whether or not divorce is acceptable, and if so, how it may be accomplished, which parent gets custody (which can vary by age, gender, etc.). Clearly the government has stepped out on this issue, and permits civil divorce across the board, determining custody by its own standards if the parties cannot agree (and sometimes even if they do).

There are other precedents for this, most notably that the government can define rights and responsibilities for clergy - but does not define who can and cannot be clergy. Thus, in the eyes of the law, mail-order and now internet ordinations from the Church of XYZ are as valid as those of folks who studied for years in sundry divinity schools.

Comment #48: madinscriber  on  11/19  at  09:57 AM

Hmm - any actual data on that, or is that just your gut feeling?

You’re going through a phase of thinking I’m retarded, Piator.  Wrong.  It’s not just the majority—-estimates range from 85% to 90%.  In other words, the vast majority.  Believe it: Most American men really do feel emasculated by a wife who won’t engage in the tradition to mark women as property.  Even feminists I know change rather than fight.  See: List of reasons I won’t get married.

Comment #49: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/19  at  11:47 AM

Very well thought out article. I will be quoting it later.

As far as the name change thing. I did it on my first marriage (I was young and stupid) and when I got divorced and changed my name back I swore I’d never change my name again. I got remarried and my husband adopted my son. He insisted 1. I keep my name and 2. my son keep my name. The reason behind these were 1. “his ego didn’t need stroked by having me change my name, I married him” and 2. as our son would be the only one able to pass on my name he needed to keep it. (I think my husband can do no wrong in my parents eyes now). Our other children have his name or our names hyphenated with the caveat that they can change them later. 

BTW we view our marriage as a partnership. (and he can clean better then me but I cook better)

Comment #50: Jennifer  on  11/19  at  11:49 AM

I’m curious, what sort of places have rules like that?

It’s not a narrow field.  A recent case in Dallas happened where a black cop sued because they were requiring her to straighten her hair instead of wear braids, as she preferred.  Many workplaces and most schools have vague rules about “non-distracting hair”.  Guess what happens when that rule is put to use by racist bosses?

Comment #51: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/19  at  11:51 AM

I thought all you folks on the left were in to direct democracy. Here you had it in action, you lost, and now you are whining. Typical.

BTW, just to be clear, when it comes to gay marriage, I could go either way. I do believe that, at the least, same sex partners should be allowed to be considered domestic partners under the law. This is America. Freedom. Why should government stop 2 people who love each other from being at least recognized under the law? It shouldn’t.

Comment #52: William Teach  on  11/19  at  12:21 PM

The black hair thing is interesting to me. I read somewhere that black women, on average, spend hundreds of dollars more per year on hair care than white women. It makes sense because in general they have to spend a lot more money to make their hair look straight and ‘acceptable’. Another “uniform rule” which impedes some people much more than others. Fashion oppression initially seems like kind of a wimpy complaint, but, maybe its not so much. The way we look can be very important to us, and to others.

Comment #53: atheist  on  11/19  at  12:40 PM

phylosopher—Yeah, Luther and the other 16th-c. Reformers began to bend Christian rhetoric toward favoring patriarchal nuclear families (an Early Modern “Focus on the Family”, if you will). Part of a grand exchange of aristocratic-feudal values for bourgeois-royalist values. Reform theology also created the notion of state-sponsored and controlled Churches. For these and so many other reasons, I really despise Luther (let’s not get started on his condemnation of the massive Swabian peasants’ revolt of 1525 or his raging anti-semitism).

Comment #54: wapsie  on  11/19  at  01:32 PM

Now, at this point, “protecting traditional marriage” has slipped into a status of euphemism for straight up bigotry.

Mmmmm…..NO, it hasn’t. No one ever, EVER uses ‘bigot’ in discussing this issue except the radical wack-jobs of the far far left. None of the politicians, not the MSM, nobody.

Jawboning this into a ‘bigotry’ issue has not, and will not work. You know when someone uses that word exactly who they are.

Very similar to when you hear “The Patriarchy”, you know you’re talking to an idiot.

Comment #55: Bob Zimerman  on  11/19  at  03:17 PM

It doesn’t bother me in the slightest that my wife didn’t take my last name. Our kids have my last name (at her request, actually; it doesn’t matter all that much to me, and doing something like giving her last name to our daughter and my last name to our son just seems horribly awkward).

I’ve never gotten any negative feedback from not having my wife change her name, except from one fundie co-worker who was, ironically enough, going through a divorce because he was a clueless twat and his wife didn’t want to put up with him anymore.

Comment #56: Norsecats  on  11/19  at  03:18 PM

Here’s the sad, sad truth, Marie:

California’s black and Latino voters, who turned out in droves for Barack Obama, also provided key support in favor of the state’s same-sex marriage ban. Seven in 10 black voters backed a successful ballot measure to overturn the California Supreme Court’s May decision allowing same-sex marriage, according to exit polls for The Associated Press.  http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/70-of-african-a.html

Each time she and other ‘activists’ try to tell you that the marriage issues is just like the race issue, refer them to this because even the blacks aren’t buying what she’s sellin’.

Comment #57: Bob Zimerman  on  11/19  at  03:50 PM

Bob Zimmerman, that hardly follows. You seem to be saying that because black voters don’t see the similarity between racism and homophobia, that there is in fact no similarity. Why would that follow any more or less than having straight white voters not see the similarity?

Racial discrimination against Asians isn’t “just like” racial discrimination against African-Americans, either. For that matter, there are some big differences in how racial discrimination against African-Americans differs between urban corporate culture and rural blue-collar culture.

So what? All that proves is that discrimination takes different forms, and there isn’t one “real” kind, with all the others somehow invalid.

News flash: Black people don’t get sole say in defining what is and isn’t discrimination. They get a really big say in what counts as discrimination against themselves, but far less say in defining what ISN’T discrimination against other groups. Ditto for every single demographic

Comment #58: Lymis  on  11/19  at  05:25 PM

shorter zimmy: I feel uncomfortable when educated people talk sense to me, so I call them marginal. It beats thinking.

Comment #59: wapsie  on  11/19  at  05:45 PM

You’re going through a phase of thinking I’m retarded, Piator.

Just the opposite, actually.  If I think someone is retarded, I say so.

Asking someone for data is not an insult.  I’ve gotten stuff wrong, you’ve gotten stuff wrong, everyone gets stuff wrong.  The best way to assess someone’s position is to ask on what they base it.  In this case, I’m outside your culture, and what I see as normal may not apply.  I have no way to assess your position.

Comment #60: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/19  at  06:32 PM

If I think someone is retarded, I say so.

*sigh*

“If I think someone’s an idiot, I say so.”

[Bangs head on desk]

Comment #61: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/19  at  06:36 PM
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