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How a 10-year-old gets tased because she won’t take a shower

If you haven’t seen this story yet, (via) well, let’s just say that it’s both shocking and has a weight of inevitability to it.  An Arkansas woman called the cops for a domestic dispute, not because her husband was beating her or anything like that, but because her 10-year-old daughter wouldn’t take a shower.  Oh wait, it gets better. The cops show up and take this woman’s crap seriously, and try to put the little girl in cuffs and arrest her.  For “disorderly conduct”.  For throwing a fairly standard temper tantrum.  But the girl, understandably at this point, if flailing around and refusing to cooperate with anyone, and so at the mother’s request, they tased the little girl.

Now the little girl is in a juvenile facility and is being charged with disorderly conduct.  For, again, not wanting to take a shower when her mother told her to.

There’s a reason that the paranoid right wing is so hellbent against the idea that children have rights.  They want to preserve this horrific authoritarian worldview where a child throwing a temper tantrum is basically a criminal who can be subjected to severe physical punishment for their “crimes”.  As the taser has been growing in popularity as a way for the police to control and punish the population without having to go through the court systems, there was a plodding inevitability to this. 

I think people tend to think of child abuse as some carefully guarded secret, where parents take their frustrations out on children who then hide their bruises in an attempt to cover for their parents.  And that does happen, of course.  But a lot—-maybe most—-child abuse is like this, performed shamelessly by people who have a social support system for the ideal that severe physical punishment is appropriate for misbehaving children.  That’s what makes it so hard to see, especially since a lot of different things go under the forgiving term “spanking”, which could mean anything from a painless swat on the butt to sending a kid out in the yard to cut their own switch.  I think a lot of people live in liberal enclaves where the idea of even a small swat on the butt sends people into convulsions of guilt, so we forget how much of the country still adheres to these medieval forms of child-rearing, and how much community support for overt abuse you get, especially in places where blind allegiance to authority is labeled a “family value”. 

Consider, for instance, the family values icon James Dobson’s use of his beating a tiny dachshund to demonstrate his child-rearing theories.

“When I told Sigmund to leave his warm seat and go to bed, he flattened his ears and slowly turned his head toward me. He deliberately braced himself by placing one paw on the edge of the furry lid, then hunched his shoulders, raised his lips to reveal the molars on both sides, and uttered his most threatening growl. That was Siggie’s way of saying. “Get lost!”

“I had seen this defiant mood before, and knew there was only one way to deal with it. The ONLY way to make Siggie obey is to threaten him with destruction. Nothing else works. I turned and went to my closet and got a small belt to help me “reason” with Mr. Freud.”

What developed next is impossible to describe. That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast. I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt. I am embarrassed by the memory of the entire scene. Inch by inch I moved him toward the family room and his bed. As a final desperate maneuver, Siggie backed into the corner for one last snarling stand. I eventually got him to bed, only because I outweighed him 200 to 12!”

As Digby noted, a 12 pound dog can be picked up and put in bed.  But what’s clear here is that Dobson values abuse for its power to bring someone’s spirit and self-worth, to crush them utterly.  And that’s abuse.  That’s exactly what abusers do, and that’s exactly why they do it.  And once you buy into the logic of abuse, upping the ante becomes an easy thing to do.  If getting someone’s submission is more important than any other consideration, you will find yourself beating the shit out of someone (like Dobson did to a tiny fucking dog), or, in this case, tasing someone.  And since this kind of child abuse is mainstream in our culture, still, what happened here shouldn’t be considered that big a surprise.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:12 PM • (155) Comments

Whenever I read that Dobson story, I hope that he keels over with a stroke and is eaten alive by whichever dog is unfortunate enough to be owned by him at the time.

Comment #1: Mnemosyne  on  11/19  at  10:42 PM

And here I was, laboring under the painfully naive assumption that no matter the viciousness of the liberal/conservative debate, no matter the deep divide between us, we could all at least agree that it’s not fucking on to hurt children and dogs.

Part of me wants to go back into the Matrix, and part of me wants to a put a chair through a window. Is there another reality we can live in ?

Comment #2: other_orange  on  11/19  at  10:49 PM

What a shameful foulmouth you are, Monkeyshines.

Comment #3: rea  on  11/19  at  10:54 PM

And who would bet on the policeman being fired, even after tasering an unarmed ten year old? Not I. What hypothetically would a cop have to do (and have it internationally publicised) to be guilty of gross misconduct in the US?

Comment #4: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  11/19  at  10:54 PM

MonkeyShines,

I’ve been watching you in threads for days now. You pretend to be on our side, but clearly you only want cover as a faux liberal to degrade women, right here in their own space. I think it’s time you found some other part of the blogosphere to darken with your misogyny.

Comment #5: Egnu Cledge  on  11/19  at  10:57 PM

I love how Dobson clearly relishes telling his readers how he abused a tiny, defenseless dog, and at the same time writes the story as if it were an epic battle with rabid bear. I find this line particularly telling:

I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt.

Really….you were both armed with belts.

Comment #6: Egnu Cledge  on  11/19  at  11:02 PM

the taser has been growing in popularity as a way for the police to control and punish the population without having to go through the court systems

This.  Thrice.

I read an interview with the father when this came out.  One thing he asked was something like “how do they think that they can get away with this?”  I felt sad that my immediate internal response was “because they always do”.

Comment #7: seeker6079  on  11/19  at  11:05 PM

for “medieval” in Amanda’s post read “southern US”. Then it’s an inarguable.

Seriously, the South is sick. Really sick. Sherman was far too easy on it. He should have razed the whole thing. That’s what I’ve learned from 7 years in SC.

Comment #8: wapsie  on  11/19  at  11:10 PM

Sorry, I mean, “then it’s inarguable”. The stupid infects you, down here in Dixie.

Comment #9: wapsie  on  11/19  at  11:11 PM

I have serious issues with a taser being used on a 10 year old…...I think tasers have a place in law enforcement. Officers should be able to physically control a 10 year old girl without resorting to a taser. You can’t teach common sense and good judgment.

Comment #10: cookie  on  11/19  at  11:12 PM

Speaking of Dobson, let’s not forget another common and very acceptable form of child abuse - filling one’s kids heads with self-hating notions of spending eternity in hell for failing to adequately love an invisible, unprovable monster in the sky.

That’s not a joke. Those of you who like me grew up in the bible belt, or even in devout home, probably knows how fucked up it is to have conversations with friends at age 13, expressing your terror that when jesus comes back you’ll end up in eternal torment. Imparting that kind of monstrous belief into children is psychological abuse just as surely as anything can be.

Comment #11: Ross Lincoln  on  11/19  at  11:21 PM

The oddest thing about Dobson’s story is it goes against every dog training manual except maybe Micheal Vick’s.  It isn’t even a sound way to handle a dog let alone a child.  You may always outweigh a dachshund by 198 pounds, but at some point your kid will probably out grow you.

Comment #12: semi_factual  on  11/19  at  11:23 PM

I’ve had daschunds most of my life; they can be stubborn little dogs, but they’ll usually come around to your way of thinking if you leave them alone long enough.  I want to rescue poor Siggie and keep him safe from belt-swinging Dobsons.

Comment #13: Blue Jean  on  11/19  at  11:24 PM

Also, adding that this story is horrendous, and that Monkeyshines is a prick who needs to take his hateful invective to little green footballs where it belongs.

Comment #14: Ross Lincoln  on  11/19  at  11:24 PM

he flattened his ears and slowly turned his head toward me. He deliberately braced himself ...then hunched his shoulders, raised his lips to reveal the molars on both sides, and uttered his most threatening growl.

Well, they say that dogs can sense evil.

Comment #15: seeker6079  on  11/19  at  11:31 PM

I liked how in one story the father said that the girl had severe emotional problems. Really? A mother who’s willing to send her off to juvie and she’s got some emotional problems? Color me shocked. I can sort of envision calling the cops and asking them to take my kid away. Maybe. If he were hurting siblings or torturing animals or had murdered someone. I understand that I’m privileged to be able to afford counseling and doctors and expensive stuff for my child if he should need it. And I can see how a less privileged parent might have no other recourse than to turn to the law to protect their other children or something like that. But . . . she wouldn’t take a shower. I’m sure we don’t know the whole story or how far past the breaking point the mother was for what reasons. But she called the cops because her daughter wouldn’t take a shower.

There have to be social workers involved at this point, right? Someone? Please tell me there are social workers involved with this girl’s life now.

I, by the way, didn’t even know you could disturb the peace in your own home.

Comment #16: Av0gadro  on  11/19  at  11:32 PM

I live in the South, so I’ve observed plenty of the authoritarian (ie, Southern, as wapsie said) mode of parenting. It sickens me. Children are treated like they have no personhood at all. My feelings are motivated in part by bitterness here because I was raised this way. My mother ceased her constant distrust of me, refusal to hear anything contrary from me, overprotectiveness, and general unreasonableness pretty much instantly when I turned 18, but I don’t make any excuses for her behavior for those 18 years. It was unbearable. I mean, I was lucky I wasn’t physically abused or neglected or anything; there are far worse parents than my mother. But I still feel pretty shitty about it all.

It’s certainly about power. Lots of people wish they had power over people, and almost anyone can become a parent, so it’s a convenient way to become lord and master of a few tiny, defenseless people.

Comment #17: Triplanetary  on  11/19  at  11:32 PM

I come from a family where it’s considered acceptable to call the cops and have them haul off your kid to juvie as a way of winning an argument with your adolescent. My mom did it to me and my sister did it more recently to my poor nephew (and was astonished and angry when I let fly on her with every ounce of enraged shock I had).

The sister is kind of a latent-wingnut proud-hick type, but my mom was and is a respectable middle-class teacher. So I wish I could say this kind of thing is uncommon (both the parents calling and the cops complying with the parents’ wishes), but it’s just not. It makes me see a million different shades of red.

Comment #18: kristin  on  11/19  at  11:39 PM

What absolutely blows me away is that any prosecutor could read criminal charges (against the daughter) into what happened here.

At least from the facts we’re given, it sounds to me like there’s a prosecutor desperately in need of a misconduct charge.

Comment #19: charmingmensrea  on  11/19  at  11:43 PM

Shit, even cookie knows it’s wrong to taser a child.

“We didn’t use the Taser to punish the child - just to bring the child under control so she wouldn’t hurt herself or somebody else,” he said.

The police chief said his department has never had to Taser a child before. But he said if the officer tried to forcefully put the girl in handcuffs, he could have accidentally broken her arm or leg.

Instead they used a taser which could have stopped her heart.

Tasers are to be used INSTEAD of GUNS.  Would he have shot this child?

He might have.  You see, while resisting him, she also kicked him in the nuts.  Then he tasered her.

The mother deserves to lose custody, and the cop should be fired.  Neither will happen, b/c we are already too far down the road to authoritarianism.

Comment #20: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/19  at  11:44 PM

while resisting him, she also kicked him in the nuts.

Seems to me like an entirely reasonable reaction to a strange man who comes into the house and behaves threateningly towards me. Right?

Comment #21: kristin  on  11/19  at  11:47 PM

Guys, showers are important.  If I hadn’t been arrested for refusing to take a tower when I was a kid, I’d probably be some sort of smelly hippie now!

I am such a proud Arkansan right now.  Eesh.

Comment #22: Ferox  on  11/19  at  11:48 PM

Speaking from my own experience, one of the huge problems with being the victim of parental abuse is that the right wingers form a closed community in order to put their own spin on what is taking place, and suppress the truth.  Meanwhile, the liberals don’t believe that such primitive forms of behaviour and thinking are still at large in the community.  They can’t believe the victim because they don’t believe that networks that keep the truth hidden continue to prevail.

In many ways, society is like multiple streams of values and different levels of consciousness, which seem to bare no relation to one another on the experiential level.  Oppression may prevail in one social stream and not in another, although both communities are living along side of each other.  All of one’s experiences will depend on what social stream one is already moving in, hence the difficulty in communicating the nature of one’s experiences within a particular stream of culture to those who live outside of it.

Comment #23: scratchy888  on  11/19  at  11:55 PM

Both of these stories kill me.  The entire concept of tasering a ten year old, and then hauling the 10 year old off to jail to be charged with disorderly conduct is so abhorent, I’ve got no idea what to say.

And as the owner of a 12 lb dachshund, I’m feeling for poor Siggy here.  The dachshund is a a dog you can stick in the bathtub, and have trapped there.  Clearly a belt and a brutal beating is required to get a dog notorious for it’s love of warmth and burrowing to go to bed.

I don’t get these people.

Comment #24: Nora Bombay  on  11/19  at  11:57 PM

Holy crap - we found a tasering cookie thinks is beyond the pale!

On the Dobson front - we have two daschunds. My father-in-law yells at them and occasionally whacks them, though nothing even close to Dobson’s scale. I reward good behavior, ignore bad behavior if practical or remove the dog from the situation if not. Guess who the dogs obey? Guess whose bed gets peed on?

But I’m sure Dobson would say that the problem is that my FIL doesn’t yell and hit them enough, and that there’s something morally wrong about letting the dogs know when they’ve done something right. Because apparently it’s somehow deeply wrong to dispense praise and treats.

Comment #25: Tapetum  on  11/19  at  11:58 PM

What Dobson seems to fail to understand is this:

Anyone can beat a dog.  What makes us civilized is that we do not.

Comment #26: charmingmensrea  on  11/20  at  12:03 AM

Just how pervasive this is can be seen from the way the police chief is too damn arrogant to keep his mouth shut. He doesn’t even realized that he’s made criminal child abuse the official policy of his department.

And by all means let’s have more arresting juveniles for disorderly conduct. Start on the kindergarten recess fields.

(When I was a kid, the threat was that a parent would have a child declared “incorrigible” and involuntarily committed. But that took a lot more work and more of a paper trail.)

Comment #27: paul  on  11/20  at  12:04 AM

I have serious issues with a taser being used on a 10 year old…...I think tasers have a place in law enforcement. Officers should be able to physically control a 10 year old girl without resorting to a taser. You can’t teach common sense and good judgment.

Holy moly, people are gullible.  The officers weren’t worried about being able to physically control the 10-year-old girl.  Of course they could do that, without too much effort, but that was never their objective.  Shoot, the girl’s mother could probably have physically controlled her, if the girl’s mother had been interested in doing so.  But the girl’s mother was not interested in physically controlling her daughter, she was interested in putting her daughter in her place.  That’s why she went so far over the top.  She didn’t want to defuse the situation, but rather to squeeze it hard and milk it for every last drop of disruption that could be extracted from it.  (Incidentally, she wanted to mess with her kid’s head.  I imagine she succeeded there.)

For what it’s worth, I too am surprised that the cops went along so tamely with this plan.  It doesn’t make for that great of a war story when a couple of adults (grown men?) are called in to force a 10-year-old to wash behind her ears, and you’d think that self-respecting officers would tell the woman in question that she was being a knucklehead and that the state of Arkansas hadn’t hired them to be nannies.  But, no, apparently they too happened to be the kind of people who can let no opportunity for a scene pass unexploited.  The whole thing’s as obvious as it is creepy: either one of them or both could have grabbed the kid and held her still, but that wouldn’t have been as much fun as zapping her with a big fat jolt of juice.  So, zap.  And it’s not impossible to follow their reasoning: in the first instance, they really would have been reduced to just being nannies, but in the second situation, they got to play at being Jack Bauer.  Put yourself in their place and pretend for a moment that you’re an insecure Arkansan male.  Which would you pick?

Comment #28: bekabot  on  11/20  at  12:04 AM

Of course, cookie still supports the idea that police enforcement is necessary to make a child shower. Cookie still supports the idea that a temper tantrum is a crime.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/20  at  12:05 AM

What Dobson seems to fail to understand is this:

Anyone can beat a dog.

He fails to understand it on a conscious level, but it’s exactly why he does it. Cheap, easy feeling of power over another creature. Wingnuts are definitely of the “better to be feared than loved” opinion, but even Machiavelli would call for more subtlety than that.

Comment #30: Triplanetary  on  11/20  at  12:05 AM

Speaking from my own experience, one of the huge problems with being the victim of parental abuse is that the right wingers form a closed community in order to put their own spin on what is taking place, and suppress the truth.

Yes. My mother covered up what she did, but my sister had a wide circle of friends who all knew that she had sent my nephew to jail for, essentially, having an argument with her. And I was the only one to be upset about it or even so much as suggest that it was inappropriate. The rest of them were busy patting her on the back for “showing him his behavior has consequences”, “not being afraid to be an authority”, and “setting limits”. It was phrased as if it was a hardship she were going through, not her kid, as in “it’s so hard to do it but you have to in order to raise decent kids”.

It doesn’t help (although it’s completely understandable) that so many people who were raised with this kind of abuse will defend it as adults, and attribute their upstanding and well-functioning selves to the fact that daddy warn’t afraid to whup them, or Mom was willing to spend the taxpayer’s dollars calling the cops every time Junior wouldn’t back down in an argument. They can speak quite touchingly about how it was hard to get through but they’re “thankful” for it now.

Comment #31: kristin  on  11/20  at  12:07 AM

My bottom line is that there’s something seriously wrong with your parenting if the only way you can win an argument with your kid is to have him taken to jail.

Comment #32: charmingmensrea  on  11/20  at  12:09 AM

Actually, I think a lot of the abuse from right-wingers, especially from Christians, comes from the general fascistic mentality that vulnerablity in another person—or animal—is shameful to behold.  It literally has to be smashed out of them.  But then, later, a need for rationalisation (or even a smidgeon of quickly forgotten shame) kicks in.  The vulnerable person or thing is deemed to have been extremely menacing and combative in their vulnerability.  “You were spreading bad vibrations throughout the house by sitting in your room and reading philosophy books all day,” my father told me.  That was the reason he gave why the devil had to be beaten out of me.

Comment #33: scratchy888  on  11/20  at  12:09 AM

Sorry for all the posting, but this is one topic that pisses me off a lot.

And by all means let’s have more arresting juveniles for disorderly conduct. Start on the kindergarten recess fields.

They already have, pretty much. I don’t know if you’ve seen the zero tolerance policy schools take towards fighting now, but it’s pretty bad. The school doesn’t bother to weigh the situation - they simply punish both parties equally, up to and including criminal arrest. Anyone involved, often including students who helped a beaten friend get up, is punished. This policy certainly doesn’t protect students from bullying, since the victim is as likely to get punished as the assailant; the school has no desire to sort out which is which. And the fact that at least one student is utterly deprived of justice in many cases (I say many cases because there are, of course, mutual fights in which both parties are at fault, but again the school doesn’t care to distinguish) doesn’t concern the school in the least. They’re just kids, after all; no rights and all that.

Comment #34: Triplanetary  on  11/20  at  12:10 AM

At what point do we realize this country is too far down the rabbit hole to save? At some point, spending time and money to try and change things is wasteful if the situation is as much as a quagmire as the South. At some point it’s better to just pull out and put our own affairs in order. And I’m only half being sarcastic.

Comment #35: Seebach  on  11/20  at  12:10 AM

My bottom line is that there’s something seriously wrong with your parenting if the only way you can win an argument with your kid is to have him taken to jail.

Word-for-word what I told my sister.

The vulnerable person or thing is deemed to have been extremely menacing and combative in their vulnerability.

I suspect it’s exactly shame. “There you were, looking at me, and I had to face what a wrong thing I did by hurting you or wanting to hurt you.”

Comment #36: kristin  on  11/20  at  12:12 AM

At what point do we realize this country is too far down the rabbit hole to save? At some point, spending time and money to try and change things is wasteful if the situation is as much as a quagmire as the South. At some point it’s better to just pull out and put our own affairs in order. And I’m only half being sarcastic.

Those southern savages will never learn, never become truly civilized.  Let’s just let them kill each other off.

Seriously, Seebach?  This is an awful story, and indicative of problems with authority worship in the south, but clearly southerners can get better over time, just like all people can.

Your half-joking attitude is incredibly harmful.

Comment #37: Ferox  on  11/20  at  12:16 AM

Yeah, as the owner of two very stubborn hound dogs who I have never been tempted to hit with belts, I too hope Dobson ends up being eaten by a dachshund.  That is some seriously poor and highly abusive dog training advice.

Calling the cops on a disobedient 10 year old proves you’re the one who really needs intervention from the law, and beating a dog that you can fit in a purse proves you’re not a leader.  You’re a bully.

This is a really disgusting story.  I hope someone is looking out for that little girl.

Comment #38: KristinMH  on  11/20  at  12:25 AM

Those southern savages will never learn, never become truly civilized.  Let’s just let them kill each other off.

I didn’t say that. Maybe we just need to send in some occupation forces until they prove capable of self-government.

Comment #39: Seebach  on  11/20  at  12:25 AM

Without remarking on anything else….yeah, the LGF reset was pretty out of touch. 

Hey, I know, lets take a blog that has been completely attacked by the rest of the right wing internet due to being too liberal for at least a year now; and paint it as our example of the extreme right.

Fail.

Comment #40: stormhit  on  11/20  at  12:30 AM

Caren, that was my thought as well.

He would’ve shot the child?

Comment #41: Crissa  on  11/20  at  12:52 AM

If the mother had used a cattle prod on her uncooperative daughter, she’d be charged with child abuse. If she calls the police and has them do it for her, it’s supposed to be okay? That cop should be doing his patrols in clown shoes.

Comment #42: Halifirien  on  11/20  at  01:06 AM

MonkeyShines, the issue is not whether we like or approve of this particular woman, but that it is misogynist to call anyone a cunt.

You’ll notice that no criticism has been leveled at anyone for saying that this mother is a bad parent, doesn’t deserve custody, or wrong. The problem is your language, which is never appropriate but even more egregious on a feminist site.

Comment #43: one jewish dyke  on  11/20  at  01:07 AM

Two points need to be made here: one, SCOTUS has decided that children are not entitled to the full spectrum of rights afforded adults. Two, SCOTUS has also declared that the state is the supreme parent of all children. This hearkens back to the days when the King/Queen was considered to own everyone and every thing. Therefore, the state can and does take children away from their parents and can make rules requiring parents to behave in a certain manner towards their children. Children. like pets, are essentially the property of their parents until and if the state takes that authority away.

Hence, the child is this matter had no inherent right not to be tasered if her parent saw fit. If the state feels such a move was not warranted (eg, abusive) it can try to remove the child from the parent’s custody. However, here the state (police) acted on behalf of and at the request of the parent so it will be hard to say that the parent was not within her rights; since the state fulfilled her wish.

A state, if it so chose, could give the child inherent rights, but I am not aware of any states that say a child can ignore the lawful exercise of parental authority by a parent. Such children are usually treated as children in need of services if they refuse to obey their parents.

This of course, leads to the horrible results like this matter. Until children a re treated as having the full rights of people under the constitution we shall always have things like this happen. That is why corporal punishment is allowed in schools; that is why student lockers can be searched with virtually no restrictions; that is why parents can call policed and lock their child in juvenile detention centers (where by the way, children with status offenses- being unwilling to listen to their parents, are often placed along side juvenile delinquents who have committed delinquencies such as armed robbery); among other things that can be done to children.

Our society’s treatment of children is a national moral disgrace.

Comment #44: caliban  on  11/20  at  01:27 AM

Who cares if you can’t win an argument with the kid?  You’re the parent.  Tell them to go to their room and they don’t get supper or MySpace until they do what you want.  Don’t call the cops.  Ground them.

Also, if Dobson has to beat his dog to get him to go to bed, no wonder the dog flips out when its bedtime.  All he understands is that its time for his daily beating.  See, dogs really aren’t very smart, and can’t often tell the difference between “you are being punished for not doing what Mr. Human says” and “you are being punished for being near Mr Human when he’s talking and allowing him to catch up with you with that belt”.  Maybe Dobson might have better luck trying to teach his dog that “Oooh, if I go to my bed when Mr. Human goes to his bed, there’s a dog treat waiting there for me.”

But that wouldn’t make Dobson feel like a big manly subduer of beasts.

Comment #45: Denise  on  11/20  at  02:23 AM

Seebach:

Your criticism has been noted.  We liberal Southerners have been working pretty hard against some long odds.  Perhaps what we need is an influx of carpet-bagging liberal allies to help us out at election time.

But any help you’re willing to offer that doesn’t replay the war of Northern aggression is welcome.  Thanks.

Comment #46: bellacoker  on  11/20  at  02:32 AM

Sorry Bellacoker, but you’re defintely not a liberal. The “war of northern aggression” as you mendaciously call it, was fucking started by the south. Started, by the way, so the south could keep their slaves. This after nearly a century of the northern states passively bending over backwards giving the south every thing they wanted whenever they threw a fucking hissy fit, just to keep them in the union.

Seriously, the south enjoyed nearly a century of totally dominating the US government and constitutional debate. Everything terrible about our constitution was inserted to make these whiny little babies happy and keep them from bolting and forming an independent country dedicated to inbreeding and slavery. Magically, it was only when someone who was sort of, kind of against slavery got elected, that they decided the north had gone too far. A million people died because they thought their dirty slavery was something wonderful. Their fault, not the north’s.

Point? It was the war of Southern Aggression.

And before you call me a carpetbagger, I grew up in the south and my family has roots in the south going back to the revolution. And I think it’s a moral sewer.

Only a conservative slavery apologist would fail to refer to it by, at minimum, the non perjorative “american civil war”.

Comment #47: Ross Lincoln  on  11/20  at  02:54 AM

Caliban:

Maybe I misinterpreted you - the first part of your comment sounds like you’re arguing against social services and the removal of children from abusive homes?

I can understand that there are abuses there, but I wouldn’t lump that in with this situation.  As someone who was removed from a home as a child, it wasn’t a perfect solution, but “the state” as you put it was the only actor available to help.

Comment #48: charmingmensrea  on  11/20  at  02:54 AM

Who cares if you can’t win an argument with the kid?  You’re the parent.  Tell them to go to their room and they don’t get supper or MySpace until they do what you want.  Don’t call the cops.  Ground them.

What if said kid/adolescent refuses to go to their room/stay in it/sneaks out, circumvents the no Myspace/internet ban because they are far more tech savvy than the parents, or notify teachers/cops that parents are abusing them by depriving them of supper?  All of these scenarios are taken from probable personal experiences if a parent tried those punishments with me as an adolescent and those I’ve heard from high school/college classmates, teachers, and co-workers who were the kids, parents, or the teachers notified by said students. 

But any help you’re willing to offer that doesn’t replay the war of Northern aggression is welcome.  Thanks.

War of Northern Aggression?!! Unless my reading of US history is faulty…..the North weren’t the ones who fired the first shots in the Civil War…or initiated actions leading to that conflict…...

Comment #49: exholt  on  11/20  at  02:55 AM

Ross Lincoln,

Sorry, didn’t see your comment until after I posted.

Comment #50: exholt  on  11/20  at  03:02 AM

Seriously, I never heard anybody say “war of northern aggression” or “carpet-bagger” for the 23 years I spent in Arkansas before I moved north.  Bellacoker’s a troll.

It does suck having people write the south off as somehow unsalvageable, rather than just backwards and sad, though.

Comment #51: Ferox  on  11/20  at  03:18 AM

Wow!  I’ve never been called a troll before.

I’m just saying instead of threatening violence, maybe liberals should move to the South.

Comment #52: bellacoker  on  11/20  at  03:35 AM

Arkansas is too far north, and too hillbilly for that.  You have to go to places with flat lands and former cotton/sugar/rice/indigo growing areas to get the “War of Northern Agression” rhetoric.

Right now, as we speak, a bunch of KKK people are going to Ole Miss to protest the administration’s banning of the rally “And the South Shall Rise Again!” from their football games.  Southern heritage and all that…

I’ve been in agreement with Seebach for a long time.  Practically and realistically speaking, we’ve been past our sell date for roughly a couple of decades or so.  I don’t really blame it on the South, per se—elites from all over the country uses people from all over the country’s reactionaryness for their purposes.  If it hadn’t been the South, it would have been some other regioin.  Watching the decayed political process and reading my history, political science, etc, etc, etc, along with loads of sci-fi, some of it truly worth the reading…well, I don’t really see any way out of the situation.  I’ve keyed on 2012 as a significant year, not because of the Mayans, but because I’m pretty sure things will spin out of control—and I think the first-stage collapse will be rapid, because of the general distribution philosophy headed by Just-In-Time.  I also do not believe we will be able avoid significant unrest either—we have a very severe unemployment problem, and one that traditionally *does* get the torches and pitchforces and AK47s out (and not disruptable by domestic intelligence due to lack of a centrallizing imperative).  If unemployment isn’t dealt with soon, and there are many elites that are fundamentally wedded to the ideology of dixiecrat cheap labor conservatism who will be oppose to any ameilioration (see unemployment benefit extension).  The health care struggle has made clear just how substantial the *political* headwinds that Obama must deal with are.  Then there is the looming threat of climate change, which will probably lead to other challenges.  I will be deliriously glad if we make it to 2016 with a meaningful presidential election.

Comment #53: shah8  on  11/20  at  03:52 AM

Detente!

Comment #54: banisteriopsis  on  11/20  at  04:24 AM

What if said kid/adolescent refuses to go to their room/stay in it/sneaks out, circumvents the no Myspace/internet ban because they are far more tech savvy than the parents, or notify teachers/cops that parents are abusing them by depriving them of supper?

We’re really talking about the under-13 crowd here, before they become clever/dangerous enough to cause serious trouble/damage when they have a disagreement with the parents. While some children will choose to escalate the situation, “taking it to the next level,” most, ultimately, want to win their parents’ approval. In any case, once they’re old enough that they’re starting to circumvent computer safeguards/sneaking out/taking advantage of social services to get back at the parents, the child is more or less past the age in which discipline lessons can be learned, and the best option for the parents is just to “wait it out” and hope that the child doesn’t get pregnant, injure him/herself, or make living under the same roof with the parents totally unbearable before he/she turns 18 and moves out.

War of Northern Aggression?!! Unless my reading of US history is faulty…..the North weren’t the ones who fired the first shots in the Civil War…or initiated actions leading to that conflict…...

exholt, this is “an expression.” While it is said that some die-hard confederates refer to the civil war this way, in modern parlance, using the expression “War of Northern Aggression” is a tongue-in-cheek term trying to evoke “what a hardcore confederate thinks,” not a serious historical argument.

Comment #55: Tyro  on  11/20  at  04:46 AM

I totaly got that bellacocker’s “carpetbagger” and “northern aggression” were an attempt at satire.

BTW, the South used to be plenty progressive. Huey Long took on the oil companies in the1930s with little racist rhetoric. The mayor of Nashville quickly understood the logic of the merchant boycott. All the media in southeast Texas participated in Houston’s “Strange Demise of Jim Crow”.

For every liberal moving down here we got ten disaffected rust-belters who moved down here only to get a slightly less bad deal than they got up north. They mix their own racism with local racism in search of someone to blame.

Tasering a 10yo is just seriously fucked up. Getting the police involved at all is fucked up. That the police would do anything but walk away and possibly flag the mom to CPS is fucked up. The taser should be used only as an alternative to deadly force. If no one is under grave threat of physical harm, the taser should not be used. That’s what the taser was originally marketed as. It’s not some kind of fun toy for sadists and certainly not a tool for agents of the state to use in cases of disputes with children.

And why was the kid so freaked about the shower? Maybe one of mom’s “friends” had done something there?

The Dobson quote was just perfect. These god-bots believe nthing is right or wrong unless some ultimate ass-kicking authority says it’s so. They are skeptical of normal human sympathies and reject common sense and proven techniques for modifying the actions of others as delusions introduced by evil supernatural entities. Only ass-kicking matters to them. Problem is, their god never shows up to kick anyone’s ass in real life. Sure. they tell stories that those who oppose them will get their asses kicked for eternity in hell, but while this is somewhat effective, it has its limits. That’s why they tell the story that certain persons are delegated with divine ass-kicking authority to make everyone God’s bitch, even little dogs. God may not smite you, but dad, mom, Zero-tolerance school adminstrators, and the cops sure can. Let’s kill, imprison, rape, forced-birth, circumcise (yes, these dudes get off on penis cutting in a big way, and would go after girls if they could) and kick to the curb everyone we can to make us all their god’s bitches.

Never forget we are up against dog-beaters, child-shockers, and rapists. That’s what the Xian right is all about. They only understand ass-kicking as the standard of right and wrong, which is to say they have little understanding of morals at all. The only solution is to gain the power to kick their asses. That’s all that will stop the hard core among them because that’s all they understand.

Comment #56: Bacopa  on  11/20  at  04:54 AM

That’s not a joke. Those of you who like me grew up in the bible belt, or even in devout home, probably knows how fucked up it is to have conversations with friends at age 13, expressing your terror that when jesus comes back you’ll end up in eternal torment.

That’s why wingnuts are so rabid about the UN treaty. They’re worried it’ll stop them from being able to tie their kid to a bed to starve and beat them until they say they love Jesus and denounce Satan. It won’t of course. Any abuse they get away with now they’d continue to get away with under the treaty because as Amanda pointed out their abuse is condoned by society. But they’re not happy with it just being condoned by society. They want it written in the Constitution that they own their kids mind, body and soul (which they want the right to force the kid to believe exists).

Comment #57: shakahi  on  11/20  at  05:15 AM

Caliban hit it on the head.  Children are responsible for their own actions in society but parents are legal guardians.  Does it give the parent to right to call it a disorderly conduct? No, in fact most states view guardians as unable to have a domestic dispute until a child becomes physically violent because of the nature of a guardian relationship.  But in the case of tasering in a child, it is pointless.  What does it serve?  The child regardless of size can pull her own arm out fighting against handcuffs as easily as fighting against her mother.  The issue become liability and that’s why police are using tasers a great deal more.  As long as you used the taser properly and their heart stops you’re absolved because it is a natural risk of such a device but if you were to restrain her and her pull her own arm out of the socket fighting back it goes onto the police.

I spent a weekend in juvie as a child for something I didn’t do but the police and school administrators needed to arrest somebody.  Exonerated almost a year later but that time taught me a lesson about why so many kids who go in there keep going back in.  If parents think those places are a way to teach a child anything they’re dead wrong.  The only thing a child will learn in there is that the world is a cruel mistress and you will be on your own so you need to be ready to destroy another human life if you want to survive.  It isn’t as difficult as an adult prison but it isn’t that far off.

Comment #58: Xeranar  on  11/20  at  05:22 AM

Ick. I love that their justification is that they had the mother’s permission. Besides the fact that you can’t give someone “permission” to abuse a child, what if she had given them permission to beat, rape and/or shoot the child, would they have done that as well? I’m actually afraid of the answer to that question.

Comment #59: shakahi  on  11/20  at  05:30 AM

What I find interesting about this incident is 1. That the officer was defended and his actions upheld by his department and 2. that the official justifying these actions used the same excuses used every time an officer abuses his Taser.

These are what show that this is part of a culture of violence that holds assault by electrocution to be the weapon of first resort and is corrupt enough that it doesn’t even care to make its lies believable.

Comment #60: Dan  on  11/20  at  05:41 AM

Last night Michigan experienced another death by Taser. Given the number of deaths associated with their use, Tasers should no longer be considered non-lethal force. Each Tasing should be subjected to the same review process as is standard whenever a firearm is discharged.

Comment #61: BobbyV  on  11/20  at  08:11 AM

The cops probably take such stern steps with their cops. I called them once when I was sheltering a runway from her abusive mother and with visible bruises the cops sneered at her and talked about how, if their own kids gave them any lip, they’d discipline them, too. This call to the cops and the subsequent actions are going to serve to give the girl a ‘reputation’ with a group of people who are predisposed to have that viewpoint about kids already. Doesn’t matter that the mother should be in jail; what matters if that the girl was arrested.

Comment #62: ginmar  on  11/20  at  08:22 AM

Since we seem to be fighting the Civil War yet again in a Pandagon thread:

“Right now, as we speak, a bunch of KKK people are going to Ole Miss to protest the administration’s banning of the rally “And the South Shall Rise Again!” from their football games.  Southern heritage and all that… “

I grew up in Oxford, and I remember a Klan rally there when I was about twelve. They had a parade up 5th Street to the town square, whole nine yards—and all of it on the inside of orange highway netting with a layer of cops on the outside of that, not to protect the citizens from the Klansmen, but because otherwise we’d have run the goddamned Klansmen out of town and stuffed those pointy hoods of theirs up their asses for good measure. I don’t know whether you’ve ever been among an entire town-square-ful of people, all screaming abuse and invective at the same target? It’s an interesting experience.

But, yeah, what the hell, the South’s nothing more than Klansmen, child-torturing cops, and pine trees. Why not?

Comment #63: Aaron  on  11/20  at  08:55 AM

Not to be an advocate of violence, but if I ever see James Dobson here in DC, I am going to beat the shit out of him.  And I’m deadly serious.  I will have that motherfucker crying for his mommy when I get done with him.  Beating a little dog with a belt.  It makes me retch.

Comment #64: Sir Charles  on  11/20  at  09:55 AM

I have a couple of thoughts on this:

1) Making a huge freaking deal out of a tantrum is the worst possible way to deal with it.  Unless the child is in danger or causing serious destruction, giving them lots of attention, negative or positive, will reinforce their behavior.  Children try to assert their independence, and the more you push against them, the more they push back.  It would have been better to ignore the rebellion of the daughter, or punish her in a calm, consistent way, such as “I can’t make you take a shower, but you can’t watch TV until you do”.

2) These people shouldn’t be allowed to have children or animals.  They clearly get off on a power trip, and animals and children get abused along the way.

3) There may be some times when it is necessary and acceptable to use physical force to train an animal.  Even if that’s the case, children aren’t animals!  They should be raised, not trained.

4) Sadly, physical abuse is only a small part of the power trip mentality.  When I was in high school, some teachers really got off on creating and enforcing frivolous, pointless rules under the excuse of “won’t somebody please think of the children?!!”.  It was so bad, that in some classes the teachers spent more time “enforcing” silly rules than actually teaching.  Zero tolerance policies are just an extension of this attitude.  No one really feels threatened by a girl who has a nail file, but some adults really get off on showing that student who is really the boss.

5) Have tasers even been tested on children?  They’re not very safe for adults, and they weren’t even designed to be used on children, who are probably at an even higher risk.

Comment #65: bananacat  on  11/20  at  10:50 AM

There needs to be an indicated DSS report against this cop and the mother.  DSS around here would have the gonads to do it.

Never forget we are up against dog-beaters, child-shockers, and rapists. That’s what the Xian right is all about.

Hits the nail on the head.

But, yeah, what the hell, the South’s nothing more than Klansmen, child-torturing cops, and pine trees. Why not?

But there are enough places in the South like that to give the stereotype more than a grain of truth.  Then again, replace pines with deciduous trees and you’ve got a lot of upstate New York (my new home).

The oddest thing about Dobson’s story is it goes against every dog training manual except maybe Micheal Vick’s.

semi_factual, you owe me a new keyboard ...

Comment #66: Richard Goblin  on  11/20  at  10:57 AM

MonkeyShines, are you really as naive and stupid as you are pretending to be?  We’re not mad that you insulted someone who clearly is a bad mother.  We’re not offended that you used “naughty language”.  However, why did you use the word “cunt” to insult her?  Are you implying that being associated with female genitals is insulting?  When you use references to female genitals as insult, you’re saying that female genitals are just so horrible and disgusting that no one should want be compared to them.  Is that point really so difficult to understand that you haven’t been able to grasp the concept yet?  Or is it that you truly do believe that female genitals are bad, and that everyone should also think they’re bad?

Comment #67: bananacat  on  11/20  at  11:01 AM

Wow.

Poor monkeyshines and bellacoker!  I would hate to express any opinion or use any word that does not fall into the STRICTEST LIBERAL NECESSITY DICTIONARY. 

guess what, folks, “War of Northern Aggression” is generally used as either a) satire or b) a flat out laugh out loud joke.  LIGHTEN UP!  And the really sad thing is that the reaction to this phrase brought out some of the most hateful comments I’ve seen on this site: Sherman should have DESTROYED the entire south?  FUCK YOU!  As a proud resident of SAVANNAH, the city Sherman saved, I’ll say it again: FUCK YOU!  Why don’t you wish that the Germans had bombed the rest of Britain into the ground, since we fought a war against Britain once upon a time?  I live in the same country you do!

As for the word “cunt”: I will likely get flamed to hell for this, but again, lighten up.  Use of expletives does not make a person misogynist.  Cunt is a fairly common expletive in various forms of English, carrying almost none of the misogyny you are reading into it (just as FUCK YOU does not literally have anything to do with fucking).  Monkeyshines does not need to be excoriated by the language police for describing a HORRIBLE human being as a cunt.  What she did certainly qualifies her as being a massively despicable person and sometimes, we need to express our feelings with words that may make the baby Jesus cry.  Get over it.

Sorry about this rant, the story was vile enough, but then to read the closed-minded comments from some of the liberal language fascists on this site, I was shocked.

Comment #68: Aureas  on  11/20  at  11:01 AM

As for the word “cunt”: I will likely get flamed to hell for this, but again, lighten up.

Yes, because it’s just a joke, amirite?  I mean, when someone implies that female genitals are just so terrible that anyone should be offended by being compared to them, then we should just lighten up and laugh because it’s not like they might actually believe that.

Cunt is a fairly common expletive in various forms of English

Yep, everyone’s doing it so it can’t be possibly wrong.  It’s not like maybe our culture in general thinks that female genitals are offensive to be compared to, so there can’t possibly be any subtle meaning behind it.  Oh, and when something bad is really common, we should just suck it up and get used to it, rather than actually try to change it, right?

Comment #69: bananacat  on  11/20  at  11:07 AM

Aureas, “cunt” is unacceptable.  It doesn’t matter if you frequent places where it is in common use or you don’t think of it that way.  The word has denotations and connotations that make it unacceptable, particularly on a feminist blog.  Just b/c you are apparently ignorant of that fact, and willingly so, does not make it so.

If you say it here, you will feel the consequences of that action.  Your opinion will be devalued immediately as coming from a complete assberet.  More than that, being called out for misogynistic speech is NOT remotely equivalent to being tasered.

Monkeyshines is not a brand new poster who inadvertently misstated itself.  Monkeyshines knows precisely what the response will be and wants it.  It really doesn’t need or want your defense.

As for the “War of Northern Aggression”, it’s not satire to call it that.  It’s mendacity.

——————-
The father of the 10 y/o says she has emotional problems, so it may very well have been more than your average temper tantrum.  But that means she needs HELP, help her mother probably can’t afford b/c only the well-off can afford medications and doctors and therapy.

Tasers are supposed to be used instead of guns.  The question should always be “Would the officer have used a gun in this situation?”  If the answer is “no”, then the Taser should have remained holstered.

Asshole cop has been suspended 7 days with pay b/c he didn’t use the video camera on the Taser.  Yep, he had the sense to turn the camera off before attempting to murder a child who had kicked him in the nuts.  The mayor is still trying to get the FBI involved.

The child should be removed from the mother’s house immediately.  If the father wants her, that’s where she should be placed.

Comment #70: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/20  at  11:22 AM

So, when I call a mate “cunt” I’m comparing him to female genitals?  Or am I doing the same thing as calling him “bastard”?

Really…LIGHTEN UP!  Language is there to be used.  Do you take the same offense to the use of “Bitch”?  Seeing as it’s a degradation of females as dogs?  Wait, of course you do and you NEVER use language that runs afoul of your feminist bona fides, amirite wink

It’s not about joking, or making light of the relationship between female genitals and language…it’s about finding a word that accurately and meaningfully displays the emotion of hatred felt towards a despicable human.

I’m truly sorry if you’re hypersensitive enough to call out any person as NOT liberal and NOT feminist if they use a word that YOU don’t approve of.

Comment #71: Aureas  on  11/20  at  11:24 AM

“Aureas, “cunt” is unacceptable.  It doesn’t matter if you frequent places where it is in common use or you don’t think of it that way.  The word has denotations and connotations that make it unacceptable, particularly on a feminist blog.  Just b/c you are apparently ignorant of that fact, and willingly so, does not make it so.”

What I think doesn’t really matter, nor does it matter what you think.  It’s a word for fuck’s sake!  Feminist blog or not, it’s a word.  It has expletive uses that don’t REALLY relate it to any original meaning.  I’m fully aware of the word’s connotations and uses IN MANY cultures, and how it has been used, tracing back to it’s origins in the Latin term “cunnus” from which we get other useful (and I guess non-offensive terms) like cunnilingus.  Frankly, when the Romans spoke of cunnilingus, it was used as a shameful and abusive term (as oral sex was seen as quite taboo by the Romans), so…should I avoid any mention of oral sex?  Because people 2000 years ago used it insultingly. 

And the argument can go on and on and on.  We don’t agree about language in general, so we’ll likely never agree on this specific topic.  C’est la vie.  I’m personally of the belief that if you let someone’s language on a blog (feminist or otherwise) twist your knickers into such a bind that you’re seeing red and calling them out, you might be a little hypersensitive (or is that me somehow being anti-feminist as well?)

Comment #72: Aureas  on  11/20  at  11:32 AM

Aureas, if you’re from the UK (like I am) then with all due respect, you don’t understand what you’re saying when using the word “cunt” on a US -based blog. I remember the first time I used the word in America. Obviously, I meant it in the Brit sense, as just a very bad swearword - misogynist in origin, sure, but not usually said with misogynist intent and normally applied to a man you hate. The looks of absolute horror and dismay on my friends’ faces soon set me straight. It’s a different word there: nearly always applied to women, and it expresses intense hatred not just for that woman but for women.  It’s more akin to a using a foul racial slur than to saying “bastard” or even “bitch”.

If you want to be seen as someone worth listening to here, you should respect this linguistic difference. Keep the cunts for the pub, OK?

Comment #73: MissPrism  on  11/20  at  11:45 AM

Maybe I misinterpreted you - the first part of your comment sounds like you’re arguing against social services and the removal of children from abusive homes?

I can understand that there are abuses there, but I wouldn’t lump that in with this situation.  As someone who was removed from a home as a child, it wasn’t a perfect solution, but “the state” as you put it was the only actor available to help.

I have come to the conclusion that Social Services is inexcusably broken. In a state where children have turned up dead in a freezer because the social workers who were supposed to do home visits didn’t, I have a social worker investigating me because a. my son wore a dirty shirt to school one day b. he also had a growth spurt, and it being October, we had not had time since he got out of shorts to get him slightly longer pants c. I sent him back to school the day after he went home sick with a stomach cramp, instead of taking him to the doctor, because he was fine after he pooped and the nurse’s note said absolutely *nothing* about requiring a doctor’s visit d. he didn’t actually have head lice when the nurse said he did e. my house was kind of cluttered.

I am not joking.

Social workers are bound to investigate every complaint, and they treat the existence of former complaints (ones found to be BASELESS) as reason to take new complaints more seriously… and they go for the low-hanging fruit. Truly dysfunctional families where the mom might actually murder the kids and put them in the freezer are too *hard* to monitor, so let’s go pester the middle class family that has a lot of boxes stacked in the kids’ TV room and some laundry baskets in the hallway. That way we can require that they do the things they were going to do anyway, like clean their house and buy their son the next size up in pants, and get an easy win! And bullshit like the fact that the complainant *lied*, documentedly lied, provably lied, about the most serious of their allegations doesn’t prevent social workers from taking allegations like “he comes to school in filthy clothes that don’t fit” because one day he wore a dirty shirt and his pants, while still comfortable for him, were showing about an inch of sock as if they were deadly serious. Meanwhile people kill their kids.

I am in favor of the *existence* of Social Services. I am in favor of their right to remove children from genuinely abusive homes. I have to wonder, however, how it can be possible that so many kids remain in abusive homes if the social workers harass *me* for letting a THIRTEEN YEAR OLD wear a dirty shirt… normally when you see ridiculously high standards, very few errors would slip through the system, so I have to assume that what they’re actually doing is *targeting* the ridiculously trivial issues and ignoring the really serious ones.

None of which changes the fact that Social Services should take that child away from the mother, and the cop in question should be arrested for assault on a minor, but I have no faith that Social Services will do such a thing, based on the behavior of Social Services where *I* live. They’re probably too busy chasing people who’ve run out of clean laundry.

Comment #74: Alara J Rogers  on  11/20  at  11:47 AM

As for the word “cunt”: I will likely get flamed to hell for this, but again, lighten up.  Use of expletives does not make a person misogynist.

You’ll also “get flamed” for using the n-word, calling something or someone ‘gay’ as an insult, or otherwise using epithets.

Comment #75: Richard Goblin  on  11/20  at  11:48 AM

Wow. Who opened the idiot gate? This and the previous thread are full of more fail than I’ve seen… well, since Austin Nedved hijacked the Stupak thread the other day.

Y’know, there’s a lot of grey area between the Shakesvillian iron fist of moderation, and letting misogynists derail threads left and right. Whatever happened to the “stick rule”?

Comment #76: Nobody in Particular  on  11/20  at  11:54 AM

It has expletive uses that don’t REALLY relate it to any original meaning.

Thirty-odd semioticians are spinning in their graves.

Its use as an expletive is directly related to the concept of women, and women’s bodies, as shameful and dirty. I get that you don’t like to have your language criticized- who likes to receive criticism? I don’t. But the appropriate response isn’t anger and defensiveness. All it takes is to say “hey, I’ve done something that offends you. Sorry.”

Language is meaningful. It can be used to create dialogue, to open up communication and spread ideas; or it can be wielded like a club. Your choice.

Comment #77: other_orange  on  11/20  at  11:58 AM

Aureas - we get it.  You hate women.  We really don’t care about you and your pathetic bigotry.  You will not, however, come to a feminist space, shit on the carpet and then whine when we don’t clap. 


Take your useless misogynstic ass elsewhere.

Comment #78: Gypsy Lee  on  11/20  at  12:05 PM

Really…LIGHTEN UP!  Language is there to be used.  Do you take the same offense to the use of “Bitch”?  Seeing as it’s a degradation of females as dogs?  Wait, of course you do and you NEVER use language that runs afoul of your feminist bona fides, amirite

Yes, language is there to be used.  Which is, I’m sure, why you call every black person who upsets you a nigger, every arab a towelhead, asian people chinks, etc so on and so forth.  I mean, it’s just descriptive, right?  Language is there to be used!

And yeah, I do try not to use the word “bitch” as a slur against women.  Sometimes I slip up and say that, and say other things that go against my ideals.  Just because I’m a feminist doesn’t mean I’m perfect, and if I say something sexist or racist or ablist or whatever, I would hope that people feel free to point that out to me so I can examine my behavior and see if there’s something I need to change.

You see, what’s happening here is that you are running up against people who care about something.  So yeah, we actually kind of do take it seriously.  I know that these days South Park teaches us that caring about stuff makes you an asshole, but in reality people who care about stuff are the people who affect change.  People who care about stuff are the reason we’ve outlawed slavery, given women the right to vote, etc.

Going back to racial slurs: at some point in time, and in some places, using those words was or is not considered terribly objectionable.  If you asked someone not to use it, they’d react angrily and as what the big fucking deal was, why you were so sensitive, it’s just a word, it doesn’t mean I’m racist!  But it was and is racist, and that’s why polite people don’t use those words anymore, because society came to the understanding that it is wrong, motivated largely by assholes who care about stuff.  It is the position of some feminists, including myself, that we live in a sexist society and that is why people don’t think using the word “cunt” or “bitch” is sexist, just descriptive of those horrible people who are or act like stupid women!  We hope to change that as part of the movement to reduce sexism.

Comment #79: Denise  on  11/20  at  12:18 PM

Aureas, you’re a dick, but I suspect you know that already. Pandagonians are smart enough to evaluate context and intent. Amanda herself has variously used the word cunt, pussy, and, more amusedly, ladygarden to denote female genitalia. The word itself has no built in degradation. It’s a question of how it’s used. MS was using it to attack a woman. You can practically hear the venom and lascivious glee dripping from the lips of people when they use it that way. And they know exactly what they’re doing.

Comment #80: Egnu Cledge  on  11/20  at  12:29 PM

I am the parent of three ADHD boys.

My boys have defied me, lied to me, ignored me, pushed limits, broken windows, torn up my books, sworn at me and called me names, raged and raged until the paint peeled of the walls…you name it.  Within moments after a tantrum, though, they break down and cry and feel horrible at what they’ve done; usually, at that point, they’re begging for forgiveness and hugs and reassurance that you still love them (of course you do) no matter how monstrously they behave.  All children do this, to a degree—it’s just that with behaviorally-challenged kids, it’s more frequent, and more intense.

There is a neurological name for it, coined by Dr. George Lynn (who specializes in childhood mental health): the limbic wave.  He describes a triune brain model, wherein we have the “civilized brain” (the frontal cortex), the “animal brain” (the limbic brain) and the “base brain” (controls heart, respiration, etc.).  In all of us, from time to time—less often as we supposedly mature—the limbic brain becomes overstimulated and can temporarily overwhelm our better judgement (cortex).  All children have tantrums, to one degree or another.  All adults can and often do, but with less frequency and certainly with less social acceptability.  In kids with neurological differences, i.e. ADHD or early-onset bipolar disorder, the limbic brain routinely (and in a biochemical sense, kind of savagely) overwhelms the rest of the brain.  Rage, as a default, takes over.

A limbic wave begins with a tightening of the jaw and, typically, a grimace on the face.  Then, the explosive anger—the refusal to hear reason, the defying of requests and orders (i.e. KINDLY TAKE YOUR SHOWER!), the stomping, the invective, the complete disregard for manners or anything the child has been taught, the throwing and breaking of things, and often, actual violence like punching a wall or a sibling or even a parent.  Finally, an enormous flood of remorse sets in, and the child feels like complete shit.  He may weep, he may withdraw, he may beg forgiveness.

I would stress that when a child is mid-wave, NONE of this is within his control, and beating—or, God help me, Tasing—a child who is in the middle of such a neurological event is beyond cruel, beyond ignorant, and beyond human, in my opinion.  A child whose already-fragile sense of self is literally shot down with pain, domination, and the use of objects and electrical current to subdue that part of himself he already hates?  He or she is heading for a life of yet more, and serious, mental health issues in the future, sociopathy foremost among them.

And I will be the first to admit it is extremely difficult to not take a child’s rage personally, to not feel attacked when he is, quite literally, attacking you with his little fists or screaming his hurtful, sarcastic words at you.  But it passes—it always does.  You have to keep calm, do your best to keep him from hurting himself (bear hug the little dervish if you have to, and keep repeating “deep breath, deep breath”), and shortly thereafter, when he’s weeping, tell him you love him, over and over.

See, wingnut authoritarian parents do not understand that this works.  My two eldest sons are now well-adjusted, loving, gentle (!) and moral teenagers, but you’d never believe they were the same boys as the wild little kids I knew several years ago.  Fundie wingnuts go by that bullshit “spare the rod, spoil the child (or the dachshund)” dictum.  They would sooner Tase themselves than open their minds to the neurology of human behavior—it’s much too science-based, I’m guessing, and it doesn’t give them cover for their sick, sick treatment of children.

Children, people.  Children.

Comment #81: litbrit  on  11/20  at  12:30 PM

Joan Crawford once had her daughter taken to Juvie, after she’d(Crawford) beaten the hell out of her.
It’s disgusting that this is still happening. And people wonder why I dislike the police.
Dobson should be torn apart by dogs. I hate that man.

Comment #82: pitbullgirl65  on  11/20  at  12:39 PM

Within moments after a tantrum, though, they break down and cry and feel horrible at what they’ve done; usually, at that point, they’re begging for forgiveness and hugs and reassurance that you still love them (of course you do) no matter how monstrously they behave.

Possible responses:

A) Forgive them, tell them you love them
B) Tase them

I’d say the answer is clearly B here. After all, it’s breasts and rap music we have to protect our children form, not physical abuse or long-term emotional and psychological damage. If they grow up not only mentally healthy, but with a healthy attitude towards sex, they might not remain conservatives!

Comment #83: Triplanetary  on  11/20  at  12:41 PM

Dobson should be torn apart by dogs. I hate that man.

This, and all the similar comments in this thread, just reminded me of the Legend of Zelda games. In several of them, you can whack at chickens with your sword. The chickens never actually die, but if you whack at one too much, a huge flock of chickens will swoop in and start attacking you. It feels hilariously just.

Comment #84: Triplanetary  on  11/20  at  12:44 PM

It’s not about joking, or making light of the relationship between female genitals and language…it’s about finding a word that accurately and meaningfully displays the emotion of hatred felt towards a despicable human.

And that is a word that means female genitals? RIGHT.  No misogyny there.

Again, it does not matter one whit that you think you’re Humpty Dumpty and can force words to mean what you want them to mean.  Words have meaning, connotative and denotative.  When you use them, you will get a response.

When you use a term for female genitals as an expletive to express the emotion of hatred, people are going to believe you hate women.  BECAUSE YOU JUST USED FEMALE GENITALS AS THE OBJECT OF UTTER LOATHING. 

Crying about people needing to “lighten up” is just pathetic.  You little coward.  Use any word you want, but don’t go crying about it when someone objects to it.

You’re not even apologizing for ‘possibly offending’ people.  You’re not acknowledging the word is offensive.  You’re just having a hissy fit b/c when you say a sexist slur, other people call you out for it.

Good thing you’re not a 10 y/o in Arkansas.  Hissy fits get you tased, there.

Comment #85: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/20  at  12:55 PM

Dobson has told the world how to deal with authoritarians like himself. They must be physically beaten until they unconditionally surrender, which they will because they have no moral grounds with which to resist against the forces that oppose them. The Germans and Japanese became the world’s model citizens since the defeat of their authoritarian societies. In order for American society to achieve what the Germans and Japanese have, it will need to be severely punished until it unconditionally surrenders its exceptionalism and hangs its war pigs.

Comment #86: mnsr  on  11/20  at  12:57 PM

Now, I’m imagining Dobson being savaged by a huge pack of tiny daschunds. That feels hilariously just too.  Thanks, Triplanetary!

Yes, what MissPrism said, Aureas.  George Bernard Shaw once said that the British and Americans are two peoples divided by a common language, and he was right.  “Fag” is another word that dividesus; it means “cigarette” over on your side of the pond, but it’s a slur on gays here, sort of like using “cunt” for women. It’s one thing when you use the word out of ignorance, but deliberately using hurtful language doesn’t prove you’re a free spirit, it just proves you’re a dumb jerk.  (and that needs no translation).

Comment #87: Blue Jean  on  11/20  at  12:59 PM

Litbrit…thanks for that link.

Comment #88: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/20  at  01:10 PM

In kids with neurological differences, i.e. ADHD or early-onset bipolar disorder, the limbic brain routinely (and in a biochemical sense, kind of savagely) overwhelms the rest of the brain.  Rage, as a default, takes over.

I was taught that this applies to small children too. By four or five, kids with normal brain chemistry outgrow this, but there are times your toddler literally cannot control his or her tantrum and the only way to cope is to ignore them till it’s over. Of course, the trick is telling the difference between a normal tantrum and a limbic wave.

Comment #89: Av0gadro  on  11/20  at  01:18 PM

Delurking for a quick comment…

What librit said.

Also, of course there’s no excuse for what the officer did. A ten-year-old having a fit on a bathroom floor would not seem to be a serious danger to any of the adults around, and a cop with a Taser is not the appropriate responder. Any more than a full SWAT team is the best way to handle a suicidal teenager armed with scissors.

And of course it’s tragically ridiculous that the girl now has criminal charges filed against her. WTF?

But. But but but. I’ve seen a lot of condemnation of the mother here. And maybe she is a sadistic child abuser; sadly, those people exist. Or maybe she is a rigid super-authoritarian, willing to back up her every command with the full force of the criminal justice system; those people exist also.

But maybe she’s an overwhelmed single mother trying to cope on her own with a child who has serious problems that are not in fact the mother’s fault. (Or the father’s: where was he in all this?) It’s possible for children even younger than ten to suffer from serious mental illness. “Emotional problems” covers a lot of ground, and there’s not much information given in the article. Maybe the girl is schizophrenic, bipolar, autistic; the account certainly sounds like more than an ordinary tantrum of an ordinary child. There are problems that can’t be handled with a “go to your room” or a “no more TV tonight,” and until you’ve been in the trenches with that kind of problem, you can’t know what it’s like. Or how little real help is available.

And I say that from a position of privilege, as a middle-class resident of an East-Coast metropolitan area known for its medical institutions. How much help was availble to that woman in small-town Arkansas? Maybe she called the cops because there was no one else to call. I can only hope that both she and her daughter are getting some help now.

So no, no excuse for Tasering and jailing a ten-year-old. But mostly, as a society it’s time we stopped using “jail” as a substitute for “mental health treatment.” For children and everyone else.

Well. that was longer than I’d meant to go on. Re-lurking now.

Comment #90: Amaryllis  on  11/20  at  01:48 PM

That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast.

Jebus, he makes it sound like Beowulf vs. Grendel. What a twit!

I’m fully aware of the word’s connotations and uses IN MANY cultures, and how it has been used, tracing back to it’s origins in the Latin term “cunnus” from which we get other useful (and I guess non-offensive terms) like cunnilingus.

Just because you know the etymological history of a particular slur doesn’t make it cool.

Comment #91: Jimmy  on  11/20  at  01:56 PM

I’ve never heard anyone in Charleston say “war of northern aggression”, even in jest.

“War for Southern Independence”, yes, and with all seriousness. Which is perhaps even more mendacious. To be fair, most of the seriously loony Confederacy fetishists these days are not here but come down from upstate, from Greenville and Spartanburg, with their “Heritage not Hate” bumperstickers on giant trucks that don’t fit our 17th-century streets. I don’t know what antidote will purge the toxins from our local culture, but we need to find it, and soon. Because it’s hard to find reasons why more enlightened states shouldn’t cut us loose to rot on our own.

Comment #92: wapsie  on  11/20  at  02:01 PM

You’ll also “get flamed” for using the n-word, calling something or someone ‘gay’ as an insult, or otherwise using epithets.
Comment #78: Richard Goblin on 11/20 at 10:48 AM

But using dick and prick is still perfectly fine, right?

Comment #93: phylosopher  on  11/20  at  02:24 PM

“Aureas, you’re a dick” (Egnu Cledge)
“Aureas - we get it.  You hate women.”
“Crying about people needing to “lighten up” is just pathetic.  You little coward.  _Use any word you want_, but don’t go crying about it when someone objects to it.”

At least Egnu Cledge goes on to make a valid point, after making a rather piquant observation (calling one whom you suppose is a man “a dick” is somehow OK though calling a woman a cunt is not, I get it):
“You can practically hear the venom and lascivious glee dripping from the lips of people when they use it that way. And they know exactly what they’re doing.” (Egnu again)
Admittedly, context vs vocabulary is a viable point.  What MS said (I’ll point out that I never called ANYONE a cunt!  LOL) considering his/her history is valid in the context.  All I was surprised about was the utter drubbing that he/she received for using one little word in a post that otherwise AGREED COMPLETELY WITH the overwhelming sentiment of most posters.
As for the various ad hominem attacks about me…I’ll have a good laugh that I caused a bit of uproar on the internets, then go on leading my life, respecting women as I always have and finding human irritation at mere words amusing (whether I’m right or not should really not matter too much to all of you who think I’m a coward or a misogynist or whatever vile evil little beast you think I am).  I love Pandagon, and have had a lot of moments of saying, “Oh, shit….OH HOLY SHIT!” along with all the other regular readers.

“And that is a word that means female genitals? RIGHT.  No misogyny there.” (Caren)  Well, yes, it does.  But then there’s dick, asshole, fucker, shitwit, dickwad, fuckturd, and so on.  We humans find a great deal of cathartic relief in abusing each other with body parts/functions.  It’s part of what we do.  I understand how highly offensive “cunt” can be, but really, so are all those other epithets.

PS Jimmy….it doesn’t make the word cool, but it sure does make ME cool raspberry LOL

Comment #94: Aureas  on  11/20  at  02:25 PM

Amaryllis, the father does not have custody and is extremely upset that his child was tasered.

Otherwise, I agree that universal health care might very well have helped in this situation.  Child could have been properly treated, if we just gave a shit about each other and didn’t act like being ill, mentally or physically, was a sin and treating it a luxury that only the rich should be able to buy

Comment #95: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/20  at  02:47 PM

1. I have a 55-pound dog who I wouldn’t call “defiant” but definitely independent. Sometimes I call him and he doesn’t come. Then I pick up the clicker and call him, and he comes because the clicker means he gets treats. If he doesn’t come then, I say, “Hey,” or sometimes, “HEY!” and then he comes because he knows if I have to go over and put the leash on him myself, he doesn’t get treats. It’s an epic battle between woman and beast.

2. Here in Birmingham, I hear “carpetbaggers” and “the War of Northern Aggression” all the time. They’re generally pronounced “cahpetbaggahs” and “the Wauh of Nauthuhn Aggresshun,” and they’re used in complete jest to describe, respectively, our coworkers transplanted from the North and the war that those wackjobs in Ohatchee can’t accept they lost. I’ve never heard either term used sincerely, certainly not by anyone bright enough to find the power button on a computer and type coherent sentences, so I suspect bellacoker was joking.

That said, it’s a real shock that progressives in the Deep South feel so completely ignored and disregarded by those in the rest of the country. After all, if Sherman had done his job properly, none of us dumb, regressive, child-beating hicks would be here anyway. There’s really no point in trying to work with southern organizations to nurture the growing progressive movement and influence lawmaking and social policy; there’s no fixing us, it’s a waste of time, and everyone would be better off if we just cleared out and let the grownups come run it for us.

Comment #96: ACG  on  11/20  at  02:54 PM

Aureas,
I know plenty of 12 year-olds (and sadly, older people) who use “gay” as an insult.  Is it ok to do that because it’s just a joke and besides, everyone else is doing it.  Do you have any idea how oblivious and immature you sound when you use those excuses?  Here’s a tip: in any situation where you think someone needs to just “lighten up” you should strongly consider that you are missing the point.  Chances are, people aren’t upset that you used a dirty word or insulted somebody, but they’re upset because you’re just completely oblivious to an important point.  Yes, you should accept that you’re not perfect and maybe you’re missing something that’s kind of important.  FWIW, it’s not OK to use dick as an insult either.  However, two wrongs don’t make a right.  Try thinking about things just a little bit deeper when it’s so clear that you don’t understand them.

Comment #97: bananacat  on  11/20  at  02:56 PM

respecting women as I always have and finding human irritation at mere words amusing

Aw.  Aren’t the wittle feminists so cute when they get upset!  I respect them SOOO much, even though they need to learn to take a joke and lighten up.

I understand how highly offensive “cunt” can be, but really, so are all those other epithets.

No, you don’t.  Your entire entitled argument makes that plain.  You refuse to acknowledge the context in which “cunt” is generally used and refuse to acknowledge that the people who have told you you offended them were right.

You refuse to acknowledge the context that we live in a patriarchal rape culture and that using women’s body parts as “expressions of hatred” is shitty at best and unacceptable to many here at worst. 

You did offend people, sticking up for well known trollbait.  Did you apologize for a misunderstanding?  No, you just told everyone to lighten up and take words the way you want them to be taken, completely denying every other person’s experiences.  When people tell you a word offends them, it offends them and whining that they just shouldn’t be offended because you like to use the word just makes it worse.

Either use the words and stand by them, or listen to the responses you receive and try to learn something.  Belittling people you have offended is just pathetic and cowardly.

Comment #98: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/20  at  02:56 PM

“But using dick and prick is still perfectly fine, right? “

No, it’s not.  While I don’t use the words myself, I can see why they are being used against a useless turd like Aureas - since they’re “just words” and all. 


’ll have a good laugh that I caused a bit of uproar on the internets, then go on leading my life, respecting women as I always have and finding human irritation at mere words amusing”

Don’t think we’re not laughing at your transparent lies and obvious misogyny.  It’s deeply amusing that you consider yourself to respectful of women, while simultaneously dismissing everything every woman has said to you here on this thread.

You’re no ally, you’re a godawful liar.  Highly amusing for your sheer stupidity, but not at all as interesting as you think you are.

Comment #99: Gypsy Lee  on  11/20  at  03:00 PM

“Heritage not Hate” bumperstickers

I see these everywhere. I always want to ask, “What heritage?”. The period the bumper sticker refers to coincides only with the years the South had seceded from the union and was fighting to keep slavery legal. That’s it. It’s a heritage of hate, nothing else. If they were attempting to refer to pre-war years, then why use the confederate flag? Presumably the south was American at that time, even if it was an America that allowed slavery. The Confederate flag can only refer to hate, prejudice and traitorous acts.

Comment #100: Egnu Cledge  on  11/20  at  03:02 PM

Catgirl, 
What?  I really didn’t call anyone a cunt.  Quit conflating me with MS.  Nor do I think it’s necessarily ok for 12 year olds who don’t understand what the FUCK they’re saying to use the term “gay” as an insult.  However, I’m not 12.  And as an adult, I feel I have every right to express my opinion that there was an overreaction and that cooling off might be the better course (thus, lighten up).

I think, perhaps, that you’re missing and have missed my point.  Perhaps?  Again, I never called anyone a cunt, and got called a dick smile  Asking people to chill is not calling anyone out, just asking for civility.  But perhaps my use of the imperative “Lighten up” triggered a negative response in you and other commentors leading to this discourse.

In reality, I was more upset at the commentor who wished that the entire south had been destroyed by Sherman!!  The cunt thing was an aside (and perhaps should have been excised from my original comment).

Comment #101: Aureas  on  11/20  at  03:04 PM

The problem I have with using a word meaning female genitals to express loathing, as opposed to using a word for male genitals:

Male genitals are, in fact, frequently used to cause harm and pain to others. That’s not what they’re *for*, but they can be easily used for that purpose, and frequently are. Also, men are encouraged to think of their genitals as essentially a separate part of themselves, a different locus of control, which has opinions and is expected to be able to override an otherwise perfectly sensible man’s sense of reason and make him do things that make no logical sense.

There is no cultural understanding that the female genitals are capable of doing this to *women*. We don’t talk about women who think with their vaginas; in fact, given that female sexual pleasure is largely located in the clitoris and female reproduction is largely located in the uterus, this would make very little sense. We *do* talk about women thinking with their uteruses, when we talk about women whose desire for a child swamps their common sense, but we don’t have a cultural understanding that women are expected to lose their reason when it comes to sex; women are expected to lose their reason when it comes to *love*, which we culturally define as located in the heart, but not sex.

So male genitals really do cause pain and suffering, and are culturally understood to be active entities capable of making men do selfish things purely in the pursuit of their own pleasure. Thus, “dick” for a person who is not empathic, who may cause harm to others in the pursuit of personal pleasure, makes sense.

Female genitals really do not cause pain and suffering; in fact they are generally considered to be very pleasant places to be, if you are a lover of women, and are sources of vulnerability but also pleasure for the women who own them. Their primary purpose is seen, culturally, as giving pleasure to others and also giving birth to new life; viewed from the perspective of their owners, they can be annoying but are also responsible for giving the owners pleasure. The only senses in which female genitals are perceived as having a destructive capacity is that the male desire to use them for pleasure “causes” men to do self-destructive things, or things that harm other people, and from the perspective of the owner they are a vulnerability.

So why is a thing that brings pleasure, gives new life, and can *only* be seen as destructive if you victim-blame (ie, if you claim that men do terrible things to women because they are compelled to do so by their need for the women’s vaginas, which removes all agency from the men and blames the women for being victims; at least when you say that men’s penises make men do stupid things, the penises are *part* of the men) used as a slur to mean “the most loathesome thing ever?” It makes NO GODDAMN SENSE.

If “cunt” and “pussy” meant “doormat” as derogatory slang (ie, something that can’t stop you from taking advantage of it), it would be equivalent to “dick” as an insult in that at least it would be reasonably metaphorically accurate. But in a world where “cunt” means “most disgusting thing ever” and “pussy” means “a weak man”, it’s impossible not to notice the woman-hating. Men are insulted by calling them women’s genitals (women are rarely called pussies; as an insult, it means “a weak person” but is almost only ever leveled at men), and women are insulted by calling them women’s genitals, but the term used for women is used to mean “an evil person” even though you’re describing them with a term for a warm, soft, pleasure-giving organ responsible for all human life. Meanwhile, “dick” for men (or women, but it’s almost never used for women) means “selfish person”, and penises, while also pleasure-giving organs that are involved in creating new life, *are* culturally understood to be things with minds of their own that make men do selfish things, and are also culturally defined as and *actually* capable of being things that threaten others, whereas no one can realistically threaten anyone else with her vagina.

Comment #102: Alara J Rogers  on  11/20  at  03:10 PM

the South’s nothing more than Klansmen, child-torturing cops, and pine trees. Why not?

You forgot kudzu.

Comment #103: flea  on  11/20  at  03:10 PM

BTW, I also object to “bitch” because it, too, doesn’t mean what it’s used to mean. It means a cold, cruel, angry, mean woman, but describes her with a term that’s used for a loyal, stupid, passionate defender who poops on your rug and then is real sorry she did it. If “bitch” was used to mean a woman who will defend her loved ones even when they are blatantly wrong, ie, a mother who claims her precious little angel couldn’t possibly have bullied your kid or a wife who covers up for her husband’s crimes, it would at least make sense, because if your dog had the ability to talk she would totally do that for you… but no, bitch is usually used to describe a mean woman, and properly treated dogs are rarely mean, certainly not to their loved ones. But I don’t object quite as much to bitch because we don’t actually *use* bitch to mean female dog very often; the word has pretty much been taken over for its derogatory purpose, whereas people really do refer to vaginas as cunts, and using a word that means vagina to describe a really, really awful human being makes no sense whatsoever.

Comment #104: Alara J Rogers  on  11/20  at  03:12 PM

“The Confederate flag can only refer to hate, prejudice and traitorous acts. “

I tried explaining this to one of my brother’s good-ol-boyz buddies who regularly adorns himself in confed flag clothing, belt buckles, etc. and when wondered out loud why “them blacks” avoid him like the plague.  You know, when he’s such a nice guy! (this happened at a party where there were many of non-white people who are friends of ours, but who didn’t feel inclined to sit and chat with him).

I tried explaining what that flag means to others and he would have none of it.  it’s just being proud of his heritage! - nevermind that it’s a heritage of lynching, murder, slavery, rape and oppression.

Comment #105: Gypsy Lee  on  11/20  at  03:12 PM

Aureas don’t defend the Dick.  It’s just Penis Measuring and waving your Wang around.  Get into a Pissing Contest and you’ll just be judged as a Wanker.  Don’t support a Nut Sack who used genetailia as a vulgarity.  It’s just encouraging a Giant Throbbing Member to Spooge all over the blog.

Comment #106: cynickal  on  11/20  at  03:13 PM

Gypsy:
Well, I won’t stop reading and appreciating Pandagon and the work they do.  I’ll go on being stupid, misogynistic, defensive, a liar?, uninteresting (disinterested?), transparent, a useless turd!, a dick, etc, TO YOU, because that’s what I’ve been branded

“You refuse to acknowledge the context that we live in a patriarchal rape culture and that using women’s body parts as “expressions of hatred” is shitty at best and unacceptable to many here at worst. 

You did offend people, sticking up for well known trollbait.  Did you apologize for a misunderstanding?”

Caren, I did acknowledge those things (Engu made a good point about context vs. vocabulary which I happily acknowledge).  Therefore, I admitted my misstep, and thereby was attempting to demonstrate great reverence for the thoughts of others.  Do I need to say “I’m sorry” at that point?

But for you and others who will forever brand me TROLL!!!!!  I offer this humble statement: I stepped over a line in defending someone who had a history of trollish behavior/language (a history I didn’t know) and will NEVER ask anyone to calm down or lay off ad hominem attacks on the Internet again!

Comment #107: Aureas  on  11/20  at  03:17 PM

Cynikal: ROFL!

Alara: Fascinating posts!  Really, if anyone can read anything I say seriously, this is some interesting stuff.

One thing that I’d like to mention is your particular view of the penis is a common one:
“Male genitals are, in fact, frequently used to cause harm and pain to others. That’s not what they’re *for*, but they can be easily used for that purpose, and frequently are. Also, men are encouraged to think of their genitals as essentially a separate part of themselves, a different locus of control, which has opinions and is expected to be able to override an otherwise perfectly sensible man’s sense of reason and make him do things that make no logical sense.”

I’m asking, in all seriousness, for all those who have been calling me cowardly and misogynist, etc to explain to me whether or not the view of male genitalia expressed here by Alara (not that this IS Alara’s view!) is sexist or not.  What it’s saying is that men can excuse behavior by blaming a “culture of penis might”  “I didn’t do it, my penis did” and that in fact, if our culture expounds this view, does it not degrade men?  Really, men are too stupid to control their own bodies?

Again, I’m not saying that this is Alara’s worldview, as the post was pretty clearly trying to outline the basic difference between the cultural ramifications of calling someone a cunt and calling someone a dick.

Comment #108: Aureas  on  11/20  at  03:28 PM

I can’t believe a police officer took the mother’s complaints seriously. You can’t get your child to take a shower? That does not fall under police jurisdiction, dumb ass.

Comment #109: Olivia  on  11/20  at  03:35 PM

I tried explaining this to one of my brother’s good-ol-boyz buddies who regularly adorns himself in confed flag clothing, belt buckles, etc. and when wondered out loud why “them blacks” avoid him like the plague.  You know, when he’s such a nice guy! (this happened at a party where there were many of non-white people who are friends of ours, but who didn’t feel inclined to sit and chat with him).

I tried explaining what that flag means to others and he would have none of it.  it’s just being proud of his heritage! - nevermind that it’s a heritage of lynching, murder, slavery, rape and oppression.

One can also make a strong case that adorning oneself or displaying the Confederate flag calls the patriotism/loyalty to the United States of America into severe question…...

Comment #110: exholt  on  11/20  at  03:44 PM

“I’ll go on being stupid, misogynistic, defensive, a liar?, uninteresting (disinterested?), transparent, a useless turd!, a dick, etc, TO YOU, because that’s what I’ve been branded “

You don’t really think I’m alone in this assumption, do you?  And you can quit the pathetic passive language.  You weren’t branded anything.  You presented yourself as such, refused to listen to any other points of view and pouted when you didn’t get you way.  You made yourself such.

“I stepped over a line in defending someone who had a history of trollish behavior/language (a history I didn’t know) and will NEVER ask anyone to calm down or lay off ad hominem attacks on the Internet again! “

Hyperbole fallacy.  “Whining for cookies” troll bingo!

Comment #111: Gypsy Lee  on  11/20  at  04:13 PM

“One can also make a strong case that adorning oneself or displaying the Confederate flag calls the patriotism/loyalty to the United States of America into severe question…...”

A good point.  This particular guy would be impervious to this argument, i think, having served in the first Iraq war with the Marines.

Comment #112: Gypsy Lee  on  11/20  at  04:15 PM

I’m asking, in all seriousness, for all those who have been calling me cowardly and misogynist, etc to explain to me whether or not the view of male genitalia expressed here by Alara (not that this IS Alara’s view!) is sexist or not.  What it’s saying is that men can excuse behavior by blaming a “culture of penis might” “I didn’t do it, my penis did” and that in fact, if our culture expounds this view, does it not degrade men?  Really, men are too stupid to control their own bodies?

It’s absolutely utterly sexist.

It’s less damaging to men than “vaginas are disgusting” is to women, because somehow the idea that men can’t control themselves never ends up being used against men—it’s used against women to imply that we should have known better and we didn’t manage men correctly. But I do think it is damaging to men. I have known men who had a hard time coping with their own heterosexual desires because they believed that women should be treated with respect and male sexuality was pretty unilaterally a force for evil that degrades and harms women.

It also contributes to an atmosphere of female contempt for men that harms heterosexual men (women end up viewing men as subhuman but necessary creatures, and while men viewing *women* this way is culturally privileged and therefore does a lot more damage, within individual relationships it can cause a lot of harm to be viewed with contempt by your lover) and probably harms boys a great deal.

However, unlike “vaginas are disgusting”, a trope largely perpetrated by men (as women don’t have nearly as loud a voice in our culture), “penises can’t be controlled” seems to be equally perpetrated by men *and* women. Like most of the ways in which patriarchy hurts men too, men are much more vigorous participants in, creators of, and enforcers of the systems that harm them than women are… largely, I think, because patriarchy is actually a system for privileging a small number of men, and even as it oppresses all women, it seeks to force men into competition with each other and oppress all the ones that don’t “win”. The beneficiaries are a tiny number of men, but because all men *could* possibly “win”, far more men participate in manufacturing it and forcing each other to conform to it than women participate in manufacturing it (not that women are blameless either; conservative women enforce male ownership of female sexuality even more than men in general do, for example.)

Comment #113: Alara J Rogers  on  11/20  at  04:25 PM

If is wasn’t for that one little word, and perhaps the hero’s desire to kiss it, “Atonement” would have won the best picture Oscar, which it should have.

Comment #114: mnsr  on  11/20  at  04:28 PM

One can also make a strong case that adorning oneself or displaying the Confederate flag calls the patriotism/loyalty to the United States of America into severe question…...

I’ve seen at least 2 cars in the past year that had a confederate flag bumpersticker next to a “don’t mess with the U.S.” or similar slogan bumpersticker.  I can’t figure out if it’s an issue of historical ignorance, or if the driver just really, really likes irony. Cuz it’s about as strong an example of messing with the U.S I can come up with.

Comment #115: Jimmy  on  11/20  at  04:32 PM

Amanda, wow didn’t know you could peoples mind and knew what I was thinking, enough to post it. Actually, police should have never responded to that call in the first place.  That’s not a police matter, it’s a parental matter and there are a lot more important things police officers could be doing than making a 10 year old take a shower.  If you can read peoples mind perhaps you should go with that, rather than being a blogger, because you suck at the later.

Comment #116: cookie  on  11/20  at  04:35 PM

What it’s saying is that men can excuse behavior by blaming a “culture of penis might” “I didn’t do it, my penis did” and that in fact, if our culture expounds this view, does it not degrade men?  Really, men are too stupid to control their own bodies?

Our society is VERY invested in labeling men as too stupid to control their own bodies. That way they can exercise their brute strength advantage over others without having to accept culpability.

And yes, it’s sexist. Patriarchy hurts men too—I’m sure you’ve heard that before, if you’re as devoted a Pandagon fan as you claim to be.  Patriarchy sucks for all but a tiny number of rich rich dudes. Which is why you should check yourself when you feel compelled to defend its defenders and calm down all us hysterical bitchez.

Ahem.

Comment #117: Well, what?  on  11/20  at  04:42 PM

whoops. Posted before I saw Alara’s response.

M Sry (unlike knowing the etymology of a word, taking vowels out of words ALWAYS makes them cool.) /tgs

Comment #118: Well, what?  on  11/20  at  04:43 PM

I sincerely hope Dobson is bitten by a rabid dachshund, or any rabid animal, even a mouse or skunk.  I hope he doesn’t realize he has rabies till its too late to save him and he must be ‘put down’ with a bullet.  (“Calling Gregory Peck!”)

Also: Fire and the Jail cops who tazer the WEAK:  kids or elderly or disabled/blind, or sick or injured, or frightened & can’t speak the cop’s language. 

There, that’s the meanest thing I (think) I’ve written.

Comment #119: Kwillow  on  11/20  at  04:45 PM

I will be giving extra love and kisses to my doxies today—just because.

Comment #120: hbsweet, empress of ice cream  on  11/20  at  04:51 PM

So male genitals really do cause pain and suffering, and are culturally understood to be active entities capable of making men do selfish things purely in the pursuit of their own pleasure.

Holy crap. By that logic, it’s okay to use ‘gay’ to mean ‘wimpy’ because gay men are culturally understood to be wimps and some of them in fact are. No thanks.

I think if someone went on a crusade against ‘dick’ as insult, they’d have a decent argument. But the crux of the situation is that it insults very, very few of the people who might take personal offense at it, while ‘cunt’ (at least in the US) is nearly guaranteed to hurt.

Trying to find a theoretical justification for why people are offended more by one than the other is like trying to explain why we say “he is gay” and “she’s a lesbian”, and yet “he’s a gay” and “she is lesbian” make you sound homophobic or at best completely out of touch. I’ve heard people say “he’s a gay” is insulting because it suggests the person has no existence beyond their sexual orientation, but really, it’s just a matter of what common usage is.

Comment #121: Cavity Lee  on  11/20  at  04:56 PM

““If you can read peoples mind perhaps you should go with that, rather than being a blogger, because you suck at the later. “

Ms. Marcotte, does it ever get tiring having to deal with these internet “nice guys” who pretend to dislike you but magically just can’t stop desperately begging for your attention?

Comment #122: Gypsy Lee  on  11/20  at  04:57 PM

Aureas has managed to hijack the thread into a pointless argument about insults and profanity.  Conservatives think it is as bad, or worse to insult the rich & powerful as it is to insult the weak.  Therefore, IMCO (In My Conceited Opinion) Aureas is a conservative Troll.

Or perhaps he is a conservative who thinks he is trying to be Liberal, but those Liberal ______ won’t listen to his Words Of Wisdom.

Comment #123: Kwillow  on  11/20  at  05:02 PM

“By that logic, it’s okay to use ‘gay’ to mean ‘wimpy’ because gay men are culturally understood to be wimps and some of them in fact are. No thanks. “

Not quite.  There’s no cultural privilege attached to homosexuality.  There’s a mountains of privilege attached to masculinity.  Therein lies the difference. 

“But the crux of the situation is that it insults very, very few of the people who might take personal offense at it, while ‘cunt’ (at least in the US) is nearly guaranteed to hurt. “

True, but this isn’t at all in conflict with what Alara posted.  “Dick” isn’t an insult that seems to carry much weight, because men seem to take great pride in being “dicks”  It proves the other person sees just how manly he is! 

I had a bf in the past who delighted in being called “a prick” because, as he said, it prove he “doesn’t take any shit”.  and he’s hardly the only man I’ve ever heard say something to this effect. Unsurprisingly, he was also a bigot on many levels.  Perhaps not un-coincidentally, he was also the worst lover I’ve ever been bored to death with.

Comment #124: Gypsy Lee  on  11/20  at  05:04 PM

Sorry, Alara, I just read your follow-up and I see that you weren’t saying the distinction you made legitimated using “dick” as an insult, only that it explained why “dick” and “cunt” have such different valences. I’m sorry for the attitude of my first paragraph.

I do still, respectfully, disagree that differences in the real nature or usage of male and female genitals are the reason they affect people differently when used as insults, which I still read as being a claim in your original comment.

Comment #125: Cavity Lee  on  11/20  at  05:04 PM

Dobson is a horrifyingly sick bastard.
I shudder to think of how many people followed his “advice” - not knowing that they were prepetuating a cycle of abuse - causing their children to become abusers, etc.

His association/mentorship with the Prince family makes a lot of sense as well really.
Ugh.

Comment #126: Danica Lefse Queen  on  11/20  at  05:10 PM

And as an adult, I feel I have every right to express my opinion

You sound just like wingnut Prejean who claimed that her right to free speech was being stifled because people criticized her.  Of course you have a right to express your opinion, and I also have the right to criticize your opinion.  Freedom works both ways.  You can say whatever you want, and then I can say whatever I want about what you said.

finding human irritation at mere words amusing

Do you find it amusing when black people are “irritated” at the mere N-word?  Do you find it amusing that anyone is ever offended by any words at all?

Comment #127: bananacat  on  11/20  at  05:15 PM

I think I’ll change my username to Liberal Language Fascist.

Cookie, if you think Amanda is such a terrible blogger, why don’t you find some other blogs to read and skip this one?

Comment #128: one jewish dyke  on  11/20  at  05:27 PM

Pretty sure Cookie is in the closet as a sub. He just can’t resist showing up to be handily put in his place—it’s all that frustrated desire sublimated.

Comment #129: Well, what?  on  11/20  at  05:35 PM

These god-bots believe nthing is right or wrong unless some ultimate ass-kicking authority says it’s so.  They are skeptical of normal human sympathies and reject common sense and proven techniques for modifying the actions of others as delusions introduced by evil supernatural entities.

Sort of like how they don’t want to do anything to relieve poverty because a number of poor people act out in unpleasant ways.  In their minds, poor people who rob or act out in violence have essentially been retroactively punished for their behavior since birth.  They’re bad people, so they deserve to be poor, in fact they’ve always deserved to be poor.  Whether poor criminals had the potential to be good people is irrelevant in the godbags’ eyes.  The godbags are also unsurprisingly indifferent to relieving poverty for future generations, not just for the current “deserving” poor.

When I was in high school, some teachers really got off on creating and enforcing frivolous, pointless rules under the excuse of “won’t somebody please think of the children?!!”.

I really loathe parents/adults who make a big deal over nothing, and I’ve seen it all the time.  First of all, if you flip your shit about every minor thing, eventually your kids will ignore you completely, especially once they’re old enough to know better.  Second, there’s no better way to create an incredibly neurotic adult.  Flip your shit over bad grades, atrocious hygiene or lack of follow through on chores, or skipping class, not because the kid didn’t put away a toy immediately after using it or left a little toothpaste in the sink.  Lastly, the worst child abuse I’ve ever personally witnessed (notable especially for the parents not thinking twice about hitting the children in front of a complete stranger: me) was preceded by stupid nit-picking shit like that.  Surprise, surprise, there’s a correlation between impossible standards and outright abuse.

Comment #130: keshmeshi  on  11/20  at  05:37 PM

Oh, and I have a belt with Dobson’s name on it.  That poor dog.

Comment #131: keshmeshi  on  11/20  at  05:38 PM

Nor do I think it’s necessarily ok for 12 year olds who don’t understand what the FUCK they’re saying to use the term “gay” as an insult.

Because knowing that what you’re saying alienates people just makes it more excusable?

Comment #132: Rebecca  on  11/20  at  05:39 PM

Just a note, but I do live in the South. Texas. Austin. So the idea that I’m some carpetbagger is ridiculous. Second, if the entire South has to be put under martial law for the sake of the country and the world, since most of the US’ most evil politicians come from here, I will be fine with that.

Comment #133: Seebach  on  11/20  at  05:51 PM

Oh I love when people play dumb. Here it how it works: calling a man a dick or a prick isn’t offensive like calling a woman a c*nt, except of course to delicate shrieking flowers pretending to be offended, for the same reason calling a white person a honkey isn’t offensive like calling a black person a n*gg*r, and calling a straight person a breeder isn’t offensive like calling a gay person a f*gg*t.

I can’t believe this even needs to be stated outright. And the first person who responds to this claiming to have been offended and hurt when they were called a “dick”, a “breeder” or a “honkey” wins “liar of the day” award.

Comment #134: Ross Lincoln  on  11/20  at  06:15 PM

if you whack at one too much, a huge flock of chickens will swoop in and start attacking you. It feels hilariously just.

Comment #87: Triplanetary on 11/20 at 11:44 AM

That’s amazing. It’s too bad it doesn’t work that way irl.

Comment #135: pitbullgirl65  on  11/20  at  06:20 PM

I had a surreal moment once in the US when someone called me a “limey” as if he truly expected it to upset me. I was mildly confused and then rather tickled. But of course the word didn’t actually bite or hurt, any more than “breeder” or “honky” would. A slur needs cultural back-up: it isn’t an expression of personal hatred so much as a reminder of societal hatred. To suggest that being called a “limey”, or a “dick” or any other insult that does not rub the target’s nose in existing inequalities is equivalent to being called a “cunt” is laughable (and almost always disingenuous).

That’s what differentiates an insult from a slur.

Comment #136: MissPrism  on  11/20  at  06:52 PM

Wow, Aureus had a REALLY easy time getting the entire thread to revolve around him. Congratulations, guys, that’s totally gonna discourage him from doing the same thing in the future.

Comment #137: kristin  on  11/20  at  07:02 PM

called them once when I was sheltering a runway from her abusive mother and with visible bruises the cops sneered at her and talked about how, if their own kids gave them any lip, they’d discipline them, too.

I was in early high school when Megan’s Law was passed and it became illegal to be a runaway. So when I left my mom’s house without her permission, after a fight, and went to a friend’s house, she sent the cops after me. They came out, of course, and after I explained to them that she hit me with broom handles and turned the heat off in my room to punish me for slamming the door, they gave me a choice: they could take me to detention, or they could be nice and take me back home to my mom.

Sadly, physical abuse is only a small part of the power trip mentality.

ToughLove America, LLC, is an excellent example of this. It purports to be an organization helping parents to deal with difficult and troubled children/teens but what it actually is, is a sick, authoritarian club where abusive parents share tips and techniques for abusing children without getting in trouble with the law because the problem with these “troubled” kids is that they haven;t been diciplined enough.

The accepted wisdom in the chapter my mother went to was that you *never* hit your kid b/c that is abuse and prosecutable, but you can and should take away personal hygiene items, remove “privileges” like heat and lights from your child’s room, change the locks so you can lock your child out if they come home 5 minutes after curfew (and then call the cops because they’re “runaways”), call the cops to enforce your authority any time your child yells at you (“threatens” you), tape what your child says whenever you have a fight, write down everything your child says when they argue with you, and on and on and on, a catalog of psychological and emotional abuse to try and get your child to break.

The website suggests that the program exists to support parents who are struggling with kids who commit armed robbery and so forth, but even on the site you can see how the justification slides into using its ideals on teens who skip school, yell when they’re angry, and into more and more trivial behaviors (in my case that was anything beyond meekly accepting my mother’s “authority” and being excruciatingly polite to her at all times). Once a child is a bad seed, any rudeness or authority-bucking, no matter how absurdly trivial,  is seen as something that has to be rooted out if you’re going to prove your authority over them. http://www.4troubledteens.com/toughlove.html

Comment #138: kristin  on  11/20  at  07:18 PM

All children do this, to a degree—it’s just that with behaviorally-challenged kids, it’s more frequent, and more intense.

My 16-year-old nephew has ADHD and is probably also bipolar, though they apparently can’t do much about that part until he’s past adolescence.  He’s been hospitalized several times since he was about 10 and, yes, he’s very volatile.  He has an additional problem, though—he grew up in a home with abusive parents and learned from watching his parents fight that you win an argument by hitting the other person.  Now my father-in-law is in a long slog to try and help C. unlearn that lesson, but it’s hard because he has those other issues that mean that he tends to react before he thinks, which means that he falls back on that lesson from his childhood:  hitting people solves problems.

Comment #139: Mnemosyne  on  11/20  at  07:45 PM

Wow, Aureus had a REALLY easy time getting the entire thread to revolve around him. Congratulations, guys, that’s totally gonna discourage him from doing the same thing in the future.

Those who do not learn from history, etc.

Let’s talk about me for a minute - Alan Parsons Project

That’s a cute dachsund…

Comment #140: liberalrob  on  11/20  at  08:32 PM

I’ve read the entire passage where Dobson brags about disciplining his dog; it goes on for several more paragraphs.  The whole thing would be hilariously pathetic if it weren’t about a real animal being abused.  Dobson is aware the story is silly and indulges in a bit of self-deprecating exaggeration (the whole “most vicious fight ever staged” bit), but he can’t hide that he’s sincerely very proud of his ability to beat up a lap dog.

The worst part, of course, is that the anecdote is in one of his books on childrearing and is intended as an illustration of how he thinks parents should treat their children.  The same petty, bullying sadism and joy at beating the spirit out of God’s most vulnerable creatures shines through all his childrearing manuals.

Comment #141: Shaenon  on  11/20  at  08:44 PM

Any man who uses “cunt” as an insult is assumed to me to be impotent, and lashes out at vaginas, because he blames them for his condition.  So, don’t be angry at MonkeyShines and Aureas and other “cunt” defenders.  Impotence is a real medical condition, and they need your sympathy for it.

Comment #142: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/20  at  10:01 PM

Maybe she called the cops because there was no one else to call. I can only hope that both she and her daughter are getting some help now.

(I know this is from way earlier in the thread, but…) Honestly, I have some sympathy for her calling the cops—if she was brought up in the kind of community I grew up in (predominantly white, upper-middle class) she’s been taught that the police are friendly and rational types who are there to help you and keep you safe; they would never hurt a fly (unless it was an evil criminal fly!) and they will probably address you as “ma’am” and tell your child to stay in school with a friendly wave, stern blue eyes and a handsome steely jaw (yes, this is an actual police officer I’m describing—he got shuffled around to all the schools to tell us not to do drugs :p.) So I can see how, if she didn’t know better, she might think that calling the cops was not unlike pretending to call Santa if your kid’s not behaving: it’s appealing to an entirely benevolent higher authority.

But I have *no* sympathy for her giving the police officers permission to taze her child (or touch her child at all.) Even if calling the cops was born of ignorance or naivete (or even more-than-a-little motherly desperation and frustration) there’s no way she thought that tazing was a friendly or parental action. It completely belies any possibility that she had her kid’s best interests at heart during the whole thing. It makes it far more likely that she *knows* that the police are willing to be physically violent towards children and that physical violence was the intent all along. So she’s back on the hook as far as I’m concerned.

The only help those two are getting is that the child is being “helped” towards a criminal record and the mother is being helped with her abusive power games.

As for making a child shower: I hated showers as a little kid, and nothing my parents said could convince me to shower more than 1 or 2 times a week. Then one day my best friend was like, “um, you kind of smell bad” and I was cured. Showers every day. :p Nothing enforces hygiene like a little peer pressure!

Comment #143: Bagelsan  on  11/20  at  10:11 PM

Amanda, wow didn’t know you could peoples mind and knew what I was thinking, enough to post it.

I didn’t read your mind.  I read your post, where you explained that you thought calling the cops on a 10-year-old and arresting her was acceptable, though tasing her was not.

Comment #144: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/20  at  10:24 PM

My mind is boggled by Dobsson’s description, which indicates the daschund at some point grabbed the belt and started swinging it at him.

Or maybe his grasp of the English language is as poor as his grip on reality.

And I saw a newspaper article on that last night. The woman is an abusive parent, the cops are no good at their jobs and should be fired. And the little girl needs an advocate and evaluation, both to cope with the after-effects of the abuse, and to find out if she does have an underlying problem that (while in no way excusing the behavior of the irresponsible and punitive adults) is involved, such as ADD or autism. It is unusual for a child of 10 to throw that big a tantrum, and just possible that the mother is incompetent rather than deliberately cruel. OTOH, a cruel parent would be reason enough for a child not to develop emotional maturity, thus, the need for professionals to determine what’s going on.

Comment #145: Samantha Vimes  on  11/20  at  10:40 PM

Having been around ADHD kids, my general philosophy is that if you manage to get them to adulthood without having them dying or murdering someone out of curiosity, any measures you took along the way are justifiable.

Hell, I am close with one such former ADHD child (having graduated to ADD in adulthood, naturally), and they describe the beatings he had as a child as a fun game where they, aware he had done something bad, saw whether he could try to get away with it either by lying or simply running fast enough, and if he lost the game, they had to deal with physical punishment.  He remember corporeal punishment in a rather matter-of-fact way as just pain, something he experienced constantly in their active lifestyle.  This went on for several years, before the mother hit upon a reliable threat that worked, punishing bad behavior by hugging and kissing him in front of his friends.  Asked whether corporeal punishment was a credible threat, he paused slightly, thinking about it, and said, sometimes, when my dad would bother (he recounted an episode of a particularly painful beating after an experiment in what would happen if his infant sister couldn’t breathe), but my mother just didn’t hit me hard enough for me to take it seriously.  It probably would have worked some if she had hit me harder.

In other words, the author is not talking about normal kids, and pretending he is is a pointless exercise.

Comment #146: Calico  on  11/21  at  03:51 AM

As someone with ADHD, and former child with ADHD myself, I couldn’t agree less, that an any means necessary approach is justifiable, just basing it off my own childhood of both corporeal punishment and other ‘tough love’ kinds of things.

My father hit me. Not that hard and not that often but it was always just the threat. He could be very scary. And when he got mad, things (thankfully not people, at least not initially) got broken. It got to the point when I was a kid when I was flinching every time he raised his hand, and then he’d get into a rage and yell at me for flinching until I was in tears, because “I don’t beat you! Stop acting like I do!”  I was brought to tears so many times as a kid, and then my parents mocked me for it and told me I was being manipulative by crying. Because of it, I still have trouble with my emotions today.

I couldn’t keep my room clean, so once when I was about five he came in and threw away all of my toys while I cried and begged him to stop. That particular unfortunate incident and the many similar ones that followed are some of the earliest things I remember about my father. And for what? What was the point? What does that shit accomplish? It didn’t make me keep my room clean. I was NEVER able to do that very well or for very long. Hell, I have my own apartment now and it’s STILL very difficult.

The physical part of our arguments got worse when I got older and even when I was in college, I’d be home on the summer break and often stay up late, quietly, in the computer room. My dad would habitually wake up at 3 in the morning and pick a fight to make me go to sleep on principal. He never did get me to go to bed, but the fights soured our relationship more. Same with the computer in general. Never did get me to stop hanging out on forums for hours, but attempted to physically throw me out of the house while trying. And what was the point? I never moderated my computer use, but I did develop a growing hostility towards my own father. I’ve had the cops called on me, and been involuntarily committed to a psych ward (boy, was *that* a treat)...

I wasn’t an angel but I wasn’t violent or out of control either; I was an A student and didn’t drink, use drugs, or even swear(at that time). Today, I’m still dealing with problems made nothing but worse by my upbringing. I always felt like my father didn’t love me as a daughter, he just wanted my submission, and though things are better now that I’ve moved out, It’s still difficult.

Using ‘any measures’ to control ADHD children just because they aren’t ‘normal kids,’ is no where *near* justifiable. Children with ADHD are still people and since *someone* has to be the adult in the situation it might as well be the parents, who ought to chill the fuck out and think about what, if any, long term benefit their methods will actually have.  If I ever find myself a parent of teenagers I will not raise my hand against them and I will damn sure be choosing my battles.

Sorry for the TL;DR anecdotes -_-

Comment #147: Cactuar  on  11/21  at  05:37 AM

all the “regulars” know what i’ve written [probably too often] about the abuse i went thru…
the one place i was “lucky” is that neither my mother nor my step-father would have *ever* called the cops in. i was, in too many ways to be ignored, a “good” child [“model child” - i was used against my friends. “Liz gets straight As! if she can, you can!”. sigh. NOT the way to get friends]
but my middle-little-sister was doing drugs so of COURSE my dad involved the police [this happened while she was living with dad, not mom. obviously]
so when my youngest-little-sister starting “acting out” - like getting bad grades or not doing homework [and, seriously? the child had *never* done her own homework before i left at 16 to live with my dad - she DID NOT KNOW HOW TO READ at age 10! i mean, she knew the alphabet, sort of, but could not even read/write HER OWN NAME. because my step-father made me do it, and after he died and i tried to start teaching her all the things i had been forced to do *for* her, my mother wouldn’t stand “the fighting”. because youngest sister felt entitled to having her homework DONE and didn’t want to do it and threw gigantic temper-tantrums, throwing and breaking things; i gave up, because i got grounded for a week for every thing she broke, so i would be grounded for a month or more for trying to teach her that 1+1=2 or something.]
littlest sister was in Juvie the first time at age 11.
she starting having sex at 12. when i asked her WHY she would have sex at that age, her reply was “all my friends are. X girl is 11 and has three guys she fucks.”
all, and i mean ALL, of her friends from age 11 on were kids who had been in Juvie.


so instead of having an 11-year-old who needed tutoring, my mother created a tween/teen who, before i got her at age 16, had had sex with at least 10 guys [at least 3 were a decade or more older than her], got caught shoplifting over a dozen times, got into 7 documented fights at school, was suspended from school 17 times and EXPELLED from 2, broke into [as in actually and actively helped burglurize] at least 3 different house, been arrest twice for “public drunkeness”, been arrest 3 or 4 times for possession, helped mug an old man, and helped steal two cars that were proved, but she bragged about a “chop shop” that she did odd jobs for when she was 14 and 15, so…?

these are just the things i KNOW about. she’s almost 28, has two children she has no custody of [or visitation rights for] and *IS* one of those rare people actually addicted to pot. she’s jobless, because she WILL NOT GET A JOB. she has, in her ENTIRE life, held 2 jobs. they both lasted for less than 2 months, because she just could not be fucked to GO TO WORK. she’s HOMELESS because she can’t pay rent because she has no job… and if she has an under the table job [legal stuff or illegal stuff] she has ZERO income with which to get an apartment - renting an apartment when you can’t *prove* you can pay the rent is almost impossible. getting the lease, i mean.


she herself gives the praise for her “fun” to the friends she met in Juvie. so i don’t, at all, think that i’m wrong in believing it was her time in Juvie and the contacts she made that “turned her criminal”.


moral of the story - JAIL is for criminals. even “juvenile jail” should be reserved for ACTIVELY criminal people. doing otherwise ONLY creates more criminals. and is, itself, a “criminal” behavior [sending non-criminal people to any jail]

Comment #148: denelian  on  11/21  at  06:39 AM

Cacutar, your recollections give me chills because they’re so close to what I grew up with.  I wasn’t ADHD, I was “gifted”, and my parents were very upset that they weren’t going to get the normal middle class child rearing exercise a dutiful marriage promised them.  Same stuff - Dad picking a fight at 3AM in the summer because I was quietly on the computer, Mom pulling the whole “Stop acting like I hit you” bit when she occasionally would, the mocking once they drove you cry.

It taught me that the only way to win an argument is to make the other person hurt so bad that they shut down.  In my case, it’s whatever would get Mom to go upstairs and slam the bedroom door to not be heard from for hours.  As a teenager I said some of the most horrible, gut-rendingly awful things to my mother to get her to cry and stop screaming at me before I cried.  Taught me that the way to tell someone you hate them is not to scream it at them - that’s just anger talking.  But if you calmly and rationally look someone deeply in the eyes and tell them how much you hate them and wish for them to be dead, and how completely fat and ugly and disgusting they are and how you can’t wait until they’re gone and you never have to have anything to do with them, that’s pretty effective.  I didn’t really mean it, I just knew it was what would hurt her the most to hear - the point is to shut the other person down by any means necessary.

It’s made me a severely fucked up adult in terms of personal relationships, so good job, folks!  (Things have improved in the years since, on their end.  Not that the damage isn’t done.)

Comment #149: suet  on  11/21  at  06:51 PM

So why is a thing that brings pleasure, gives new life, and can *only* be seen as destructive if you victim-blame (ie, if you claim that men do terrible things to women because they are compelled to do so by their need for the women’s vaginas, which removes all agency from the men and blames the women for being victims; at least when you say that men’s penises make men do stupid things, the penises are *part* of the men) used as a slur to mean “the most loathesome thing ever?” It makes NO GODDAMN SENSE.
Comment #105: Alara J Rogers on 11/20 at 02:10 PM

But but but what about the TEETH?

Comment #150: oldfeminist  on  11/21  at  11:00 PM

why do these things *always* end up at vagina dente?

Comment #151: denelian  on  11/22  at  03:39 AM

I’ve always enjoyed Alara’s posts, but the ones in this thread were so flawlessly brilliant they actually made me cry.

Comment #152: junk science  on  11/23  at  03:21 PM
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