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Next entry: The generation gap on immigration Previous entry: Sluts will conquer the universe

How anti-feminism gets redefined as Real Feminism

Hullabaloo has been all over this excellent post by Dante Atkins, even though I have to disagree that we never see a positive argument for abortion rights.  (One of the chapters in my book is titled “Only One Side of the Abortion Debates Wants You to Get Laid”.)  But I do take Digby’s point seriously—-the treatment of abortion as a necessary evil doesn’t seem to me to do very much in shoring up abortion rights.  In my experience, the vast majority of pro-choice people are pro-choice because they buy into a larger cluster of beliefs about women’s basic value beyond being incubators, and because they think sexual liberation has been largely beneficial to the public.  Which is a belief that tailors nicely to reality, as I note below

Anyway, that’s not really the point of this post.  I just want to discuss something tristero noticed about the rhetoric that stems from social conservatives as of late, especially female ones.  It’s the “we’re the REAL feminists” gambit.

A fairly recent trend on the right has been a conscious effort to rebrand feminism and detach it from liberalism. I suppose their market research told them “feminism” has pretty robust positive connotations for most women…..

There’s now “feminism” and “Leftist Feminism.” That creepy accumulation of sibilants, so evocative of the hiss of snakes. And, of course, the SS. The term “Leftist feminism” is all of a piece with the efforts to rebrand the Great Alaskan Grifter (hereafter, GAG*) as some kind of female hero….

This is something that’s been going on since forever.  I get at least two-three link backs a week from some ranting two bit conservative blog about how I’m a typical “left feminist” who is actually out to get women by denying them their god-given right to do the only thing women really want to do, which involves being a supplicant to conservative male desires.  I don’t think it’s a talking point that came out of any market research.  It’s just another manifestation of the weird wingnut dance they do with the liberal elite in their heads—-they hate and envy the “liberal elite”, and vacillate between condemning them and aspiring to beat them at their own game.  It’s a lot like the “liberals are the REAL racists” crap, or the tendency to demonstrate pride in ignorance and then flip around and insist they’re the real smarty-pants.  It’s dizzying and really kind of pointless. 

The grabbiness at the feminist label is particularly amusing, since when conservatives aren’t insisting they’re the Real Feminists, they’re doing everything in their power to denigrate the label so that women fear adopting it.  But there’s basically two rationalizations in play that conservatives use to justify this nonsense.  Sometimes they work in conjunction, and sometimes separately. 

1) Misconceptions about who feminists are.
  The word “feminist” literally means someone who buys into the belief that men and women should be socially, politically, and economically equal.  But the term “feminist” is often used to conjure up a very specific image of a very specific kind of woman—-picture someone in a suit with pearls, taking on the world with a nanny and a housekeeper at home, and a husband who indulges her ambitions.  Or a single woman who achieves because she’s not weighed down by familial obligations.  Either way, the suit and pearls are the key to the image. This image is usually used by conservatives to imply to each other that feminists are emasculation machines, but more and more often, they have a need to actually project this image as a positive one.  It’s not just because they have a sea of female politicians and pundits who fit it, but it’s also because they’ve discovered that these women are saleable.  Men like to look at them and imagine fucking them, and women like the reassurance that just because they’re anti-feminist doesn’t mean they’re wimps. 


In a sense, then, calling Sarah Palin a “feminist” is almost an innocent mistake. Someone might actually think “feminist” is a label you use to describe someone who doesn’t let being female get in the way of wearing a power suit.  In reality, Sarah Palin cannot be a feminist by definition, since she doesn’t buy into the idea that men and women are equal, and instead promotes anti-feminist philosophies like forced childbirth.  And she not only promotes anti-feminist policy positions, she does so for anti-feminist reasons.  Check out this blog post I wrote at XX, where I explain how Palin automatically assumes that most women are too stupid to know what they want and are capable of.

2) Misconceptions about what feminists believe. This is a case of conservatives believing their own hype. They’ve been claiming that feminists are man-haters for so long, that they have started to assume that any policy or belief that will cause trouble for men is automatically feminist, and so they concern troll feminists by suggesting we’re not “real” feminists because we refuse to mindlessly support anything that will piss a lot of men off.  You see the fingerprints of this mentality all over the quotes tristero pulls from the Ruth Institute publications.  It’s beyond doubt that it wouldn’t be very popular with many men if women lost access to contraception and abortion and if no-fault divorce laws were repealed, making it incredibly difficult to get out of bad marriages.  In fact, sexual liberation and the right to divorce are so popular with men you almost have to wonder why the patriarchy didn’t just have those features, until you remember that patriarchy (like most authoritarian ideologies) is a negative, joyless system that prioritizes control so much that hurting the people of privilege in order to keep the oppressed down is considered a reasonable price to pay. 

Anyway, the logic seems to go like this:

A) Feminists hate men

B) But men have by and large benefited from feminism.  The benefit that most obsesses wingnuts is the sexual benefit of being able to have more sex and more interesting sex—-an obsession which tends to reaffirm suspicions that wingnuttery is the result of sexual deprivation due to acute assholery and self-centeredness, but we have to wait for the research to be sure—-but it’s really more than that.  Feminism has raised the standard of living for many households because of dual incomes, and then there’s the hard to measure effect of raising male expectations about what they can get from a romantic relationship in terms of emotional and intellectual stimulation.  When faced with this evidence contradicting the “man-hater” stereotype, there’s only two conclusions.

C1) Feminists really don’t hate men and instead picture a world where women’s well-being improves the well-being of all or

C2) Feminists are too stupid to see what abject failures they are.  Isn’t that just like women?

Conservatives obviously are choosing C2, though of course it has exactly zero evidence for it.  A lot of this is just projection. They see politics as a game of “who gets screwed?” and assume that everyone else does, as well. And since the system they support, which is patriarchy, screws men in service of screwing women, they see feminism as simply the same thing but reversed, a system where women get screwed in service of screwing men.  Therefore, the only Real Feminism is anti-feminism.

Yes, wingnut logic makes no sense at all.  But it’s pretty much never about logic, and just about being mean-spirited and pushing people’s buttons.  What I don’t understand is the mainstream media’s continued willingness to believe that there is such a thing as a conservative feminist, or that feminism can be separated from liberalism in any meaningful way.  I mean, I get that some liberals are sexists, but as a philosophy, feminism is simply a branch of a larger liberal belief in the basic humanity of all people.

Also, I have to point out that I think of myself as a big time feminist, and I don’t own a single power suit.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 04:56 PM • (108) Comments

Suits & pearls?  :;confused::  I usually think of sandals and hemp clothing.

Comment #1: Eric_RoM  on  05/17  at  06:11 PM

It’s beyond doubt that it wouldn’t be very popular with many men if women lost access to contraception and abortion and if no-fault divorce laws were repealed, making it incredibly difficult to get out of bad marriages.  In fact, sexual liberation and the right to divorce are so popular with men you almost have to wonder why the patriarchy didn’t just have those features, until you remember that patriarchy (like most authoritarian ideologies) is a negative, joyless system that prioritizes control so much that hurting the people of privilege in order to keep the oppressed down is considered a reasonable price to pay. 

It isn’t just about being a man on top of women, but about scrambling to be the top man.  Of course any man who refuses to play these primate games or is perceived to be of lower status is a girlyman or less of a man than the top man, etc.  Take away the subordinate status of women and you also kick the “more manly” and “less manly” distinctions in the balls at the same time.

Comment #2: Ms Kate  on  05/17  at  06:22 PM

Posting pictures of your dinner there Austin?

Comment #3: Ms Kate  on  05/17  at  06:23 PM

I wouldn’t say that wingnut logic makes no sense. Wingnut politics often include hurting others even if they bring themselves down in the process. Case in point: Arizona. They just make false assumption about liberal motivations based on their own experience. I have also really noticed how the FMF types seem to wear their man-hate on their sleeves and try to “convert” me with it. Like I was arguing with this girl I know about abortion rights and she came back that, if abortion is legal, the government will be able to go after more men to make child support payments, like that is a good thing. I always wondered how the man-hate fits with the conservative view point, but the us vs them framing is definitely conservative language.

I also think that your first point can be an effective argument for young people. Have you seen those boxed in by choice ads that FMF puts in college newspapers? They are fairly effective at pushing the “choice can be scary” messages, which rings a little true when you are set off on your own to fuck up for the first time. Of course choice is almost necessary to really be happy, but it can be scary nevertheless.

I have also really noticed how the FMF types seem

Comment #4: alysia  on  05/17  at  06:27 PM

I really need to learn to use preview, lol.

Comment #5: alysia  on  05/17  at  06:29 PM

I don’t think that no-fault divorce has anything to do with feminism per se.

That’s not a matter of opinion.  No-fault’s relationship to feminism is a historical fact.  Prior to the second wave, it was really uncommon, but after a ton of pressure from feminists, most states changed their laws.

This is the problem I’m talking about. Conservatives have taken the “feminism is what anyone says it is” to a ridiculous level, where people have come around to thinking historical realities of feminism aren’t relevant when discussing what feminism is.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/17  at  06:30 PM

Feminism has raised the standard of living for many households because of dual incomes, and then there’s the hard to measure effect of raising male expectations about what they can get from a romantic relationship in terms of emotional and intellectual stimulation.

There were plenty of dual-income households before “feminism”.  Most working-class and poor women worked outside of the home.  The difference was that before feminism, all of the income and assets were considered to accrue to the husband.
As for “emotional and intellectual stimulation” - does anyone imagine that a man who’s been taught that women are subordinate is going to care that much about this?  Husbands always got emotional support, the difference after feminism is that women are expecting to get their fair share.

Comment #7: CParis  on  05/17  at  06:31 PM

I fail to see what the point of an anti-choice video is, idjut.  No one is unaware that conservatives use disingenuous arguments about fetal life to attack women’s rights, but as the link explains, their “concern” for fetuses doesn’t do much to explain their objections to the birth control pill or the right to divorce.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/17  at  06:32 PM

In any case, I find watching the left and the right argue over what true feminism is about to be very amusing.  Keep it up you guys!
Comment #2: Austin Nedved on 05/17 at 04:13 PM

“Ooh!  Catfight!”

<barf>

Comment #9: oldfeminist  on  05/17  at  06:33 PM

Oh, and Austin?  Interesting how many of those “children” in your little contrived video are either NOT even human embryos or show defects incompatible with life.  Not that I would expect the typical reactionary wingnut to understand pathophysiology - reality would be incompatible with ideality now wouldn’t it!

Just like that idiot Archbishop who punished a nurse who was a Nun because she saw no ethical dilemma in recommending that a woman not die from her pregnancy - which wouldn’t have gotten far enough for the “child” to live anyway.  It isn’t about medicine and privacy ... its all about control!

Comment #10: Ms Kate  on  05/17  at  06:34 PM

CParis, that a lot of men initially resisted feminism doesn’t mean they aren’t willing to enjoy the benefits now that they’ve been made obvious.  And sure, women had to work—-but it was legal to pay them less for the same work!  We don’t have pay equity, but women do make more than they used to.  And like it or not, more women work than used to. 

Obviously, there are a lot of men—-we have one in this thread, it looks like!—-who put dominating women above enjoying the benefits of equality.  Some people cannot draw their self esteem from their own assessment of themselves, and go after conquering others to get it.  But it does no one good to deny that there are plenty of men who feel they personally prefer a feminist world, not when the evidence shows that men are often supportive of feminist goals like pay equity and reproductive rights.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/17  at  06:38 PM

I’m not dumb, Austin.  Restating your goals doesn’t do much to convince anyone here, so you can scoot along.  We’re quite aware that your goal is social engineering that puts institutions and hypocrisy over human happiness and the real life stability of families.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/17  at  06:40 PM

Funny how many of such conservative men can’t even control themselves according to their own rules.

Comment #13: Ms Kate  on  05/17  at  06:41 PM

Well, like the post before makes clear, most conservatives don’t really care if the rules they lay out actually can’t or won’t accomplish their stated goals of family stability.  Liberalism does a much better job of it, but since liberalism does so by prioritizing human happiness and equality, then it’s not acceptable.  So clearly, the main priority is keeping men on top and making everyone suffer.  Hypocrisy isn’t a big deal to conservatives, because a hypocrite at least feeds the system.  What is absolutely unacceptable is calling bullshit on the system and choosing joy.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/17  at  06:44 PM

One minor quibble, since it concerns a pet interest of mine:

Feminism has raised the standard of living for many households because of dual incomes…

As Elizabeth Warren has demonstrated, the additional income of working women did not increase the average family’s standard of living, but has merely allowed it to remain static throughout the economic assault perpetrated by the Republicans and Clinton Democrats over the last 30 yrs.

Comment #15: Geocrackr  on  05/17  at  06:47 PM

Also, I’ve always been amused at how conservatives can lionize the rules even while breaking them to save their own asses.  Thus, abortion providers have to, on occasion, deal with anti-choice women seeking abortion who spend every moment in the clinic that’s not actively spent getting the abortion judging and condemning everyone else for their sluttiness.  The rules are so anti-human that even the proponents of the rules cannot bear to live by them, and give up their own lives and own chances at happiness.  They just want others to do it.

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/17  at  06:48 PM

oh austin, you ignorant twit. choice of medical treatment isn’t a “privilage”, it’s a right. you clearly would like to re-frame the discussion, to make forced-birthing seem “reasonable”, but it isn’t, and never will be, your riciculous attemps nothwithstanding.

what happened, that nice, pretty, smart girl in high school tell you to blow off, when you tried, in your own, charming, neanderthal way, to get her to go out with you? you just seem a tad bitter there guy.

Comment #17: cpinva  on  05/17  at  06:50 PM

“Basically, we want to socially construct sexual relationships as lifetime commitments.”

I don’t know who “we” is because as soon as I read your first post I knew I wouldn’t click on anything of yours, no offense.  But if that is really your goal, I certainly hope you can get it onto the RNC’s official platform.  Or at least, can you get a couple of them to talk about it during the ‘12 convention? 

You’d pick up the undying loyalty of a lot of fat, dirty guys running around in “No n’s at Nascar” tees, since they are fuming and seething with hate and anger at any woman who refuses to screw them ( pretty much all of us), and at any man who is getting some, but when I think of all of the horrified men you’d lose as they imagine being forced by either law, or even by the way we used to do it, tremendous cultural pressure, to marry the first and only girl they ever fuck.

Yeah, you run with that baby.  Run like the wind.  I wish you great luck, and you have no idea how sincere I am.  smile

Comment #18: JennyLI  on  05/17  at  06:50 PM

To those trying to debate Austin, I’ll only copy over the advice I gave to someone trying to do so in an earlier thread:

you’re not seeing this from Austin’s honestly stated viewpoint. For him, the “average woman” (at least the one who isn’t a shameless slut) has no higher calling than to be the vessel of the product of her husband-for-life’s sacred sperm. A woman lawyer or physician or household breadwinner?! Ridiculous!

You might as well be arguing with Commander Fred from The Handmaid’s Tale.

Comment #19: Gracchus.  on  05/17  at  06:50 PM

Fine, Geo, but the point stands.  Men benefit from not having to live with declining standards.  But I will say that it’s not either/or.  Real income is static, but some things have declined, like the number of children being brought up in poverty.  It’s a both/and situation.  Of course, the recession is reversing some of these gains.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/17  at  06:50 PM

“Sexual relationships [should be] lifelong commitments”

Not trying to debate the troll, but I wanted to point out that this translates as “you poke it you own it”

Comment #21: themann1086  on  05/17  at  06:52 PM

Not trying to debate the troll, but I wanted to point out that this translates as “you poke it you own it”

Not quite—that implies a lack of agency on the part of the male. It’s more like “you own it, you can poke it or do whatever you want with it” (“it” being a woman, of course). This is about power and possession first.

Comment #22: Gracchus.  on  05/17  at  06:55 PM

Commander Fred is a great fictional representation of what I’m talking about.  He and the other Commanders created this colorless, joyless patriarchy and they can’t stand to live in it themselves.  So they create secret night clubs where they can enjoy women they’ve deemed are sluts in a way that they officially condemn.

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/17  at  06:57 PM

Yes, I agree that your point still stands and agree with your further elaborations.

Comment #24: Geocrackr  on  05/17  at  06:57 PM

Hmmm…Austin we’ve spent thousands of years trying to make marriage a lifelong commitment and yet never achieved it.  People are awfully creative about circumventing those social constructions. Before you start proposing a “change”, maybe you ought to study history a bit and figure out why it didn’t work out so well the first time. 

I think even anti-feminist men don’t really want to turn back the clock and make divorce itself harder—they want to be able to leave their wives if they want to. What they want is to make it harder FOR WOMEN to leave them. 

And maybe you ought to realize that, at all of 19 or 20 years of age, you are at that age where you think you know exactly how the world works (and are oh so sophisticated in coming up with plans to save humanity!) but lack the experience to truly understand your own ignorance.  Intelligent young adults are the most insufferable about this (regardless of political orientations). I hope that, unlike most social conservatives, you come to realize your youthful misguidance instead of trying to further warp reality to fit your twisted worldview.  And yes, I know “age doesn’t matter” blah blah blah.

Comment #25: history_mom  on  05/17  at  07:16 PM

I am fairly new to the feminist thing, but I was under the impression that the end game of feminism was do to away with gender entirely.

And I can understand why men are pissed about the sexual liberation. Only attractive men made gains. Unattractive men are probably worse off. But hey, that’s why they make video games.

Comment #26: John Joel Glanton  on  05/17  at  07:24 PM

I am fairly new to the feminist thing, but I was under the impression that the end game of feminism was do to away with gender entirely.
Comment #30: John Joel Glanton on 05/17 at 05:24 PM

Are you new to the google too?

Comment #27: oldfeminist  on  05/17  at  07:28 PM

Austin, seriously, no one cares what such a serious misogynist thinks.  There’s just a fundamental values difference between our humanist, egalitarian, joy-oriented worldview and your authoritarian, misogynist, dour one that a conversation just really isn’t possible.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/17  at  07:36 PM

The question is, how do we reduce the percentage of marriages that break down?  (By “break down” I don’t just mean “end in divorce;” I also mean “become permanently high-conflict,” etc.)

Fewer entitled assholes.

Also, how does liberal feminism’s support for government funded contraception et cetera fit into your plan to reduce the rates at which people’s marriages break down?
Comment #31: Austin Nedved on 05/17 at 05:28 PM

Fewer unplanned pregnancies carried to term hence fewer marriages forced by unplanned pregnancy.

Fewer unplanned pregnancies carried to term hence fewer marriages stressed by unwanted children.

Fewer unplanned pregnancies carried to term hence fewer marriages that were going to break up anyway now inflicting collateral damage on those unplanned children.

Comment #29: oldfeminist  on  05/17  at  07:37 PM

And maybe you ought to realize that, at all of 19 or 20 years of age,

Oh ha, that explains a lot.  Austin, everyone has trouble getting laid at your age.  You don’t need to go to the extreme of demanding a system where you’re basically assigned a wife and she has to fuck you.  In fact, that attitude is counterproductive to actually getting laid.  It’s all going to be okay.  Things have a way of working out in that department, and doubly so if you drop the grumpy old misogynist act.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/17  at  07:38 PM

JJG, you might want to do some more reading on feminism.  It’s obviously impossible to do away with “gender”, but doing away with gender discrimination is a certainly a worthy goal.  Or do you imagine that “doing away with gender” means that we all wear those unisex shiny one-piece suits that appear in most science fiction since… well, forever?

Comment #31: NobleExperiments  on  05/17  at  07:39 PM

Austin, fuck off and die.

Sometimes the only choice is a shitty one.  As in you go into the OB’s office to find out the sex of the baby and instead discover there’s no amniotic fluid, the baby only has a heart and one cyst-ridden kidney and NO CHANCE to develop any other organs.  The baby has absolutely NO CHANCE to live, plus there’s the bonus of an incredibly high risk of infection that will kill the mother at worst or just render her infertile at best.  You have to check into the hospital immediately!

What’s the proper choice there, fuckhead?  Do you think those parents don’t care?  Do you think anyone else in the world has a right to interfere in their decision?  Cause that’s what your fucking video says.

Fuck you and your fake video of dolls pretending to be 8 week feti.  At 8 weeks feti still look like aliens.  Go buy From Conception to Birth or any of the other pretty fetus books.  Of course, those feti are DEAD, but they make them look pretty and imply they’re alive.


————————

As for divorce, the patriarchy does love it when it can be achieved by the husband saying “I divorce you” 3 times and leaving him the option of keeping his kids or leaving them with the abandoned wife.  No child support either.

I think that’s the system all the MRAs are after.  Freedom to leave the bitch and the financial requirements for raising the brats whenever they wish, but total ownership of her body and womb otherwise.  Even if they divorce her, she’s a divorcee, so, no good for any other Real Man and worthless for anything but prostitution.

———-
Just to get back on topic…feminism is by definition liberal and leftist.  It’s about granting a forced subservient, secondary class of humans equal rights, including that of bodily autonomy.  Pretty much the definition of progressive, liberal, and leftist thoughts.

Trying to claim that by taking choices away and forcing women into slavery is somehow “feminism” is just NewSpeak.

Cariboo Barbie now likes to say she thought about abortion, and she can understand why someone would consider it, but since she decided against it, her decision is obviously the bestest one ever.  By having that baby, she’s been able to leverage herself into Wingnut Lottery Winner land, so every woman should just have every baby and they can be millionaires, too.

Comment #32: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/17  at  07:45 PM

@#30
I used to work at a game company, and oh man, if I had a nickle for every smokin hot guy that worked there, well, I could have dinner and still be horny.  A large portion of them were married as well.

Comment #33: ladyh42  on  05/17  at  07:54 PM

The latter method is more expensive and more difficult psychologically for the mother, but is not more physically dangerous than partial birth.

This is a line from Baptists for Life decrying intact dilation, improperly referred to as “partial birth” as opposed to induced labor.

The added expense and psychological pain of the mother is IRRELEVANT. 

This is their argument for why it’s okay to ban intact dilations—>a method that causes the mother more pain is still available.  And sluts who kill their babies should be subject to as much pain and expense as possible.

Feminists believe that women are fully human.  That they have brains and understand the concept of pregnancy and the consequences of having a baby.  That as competent human beings, they should be allowed to decide what is best for themselves and their situation.

Bullshitters claiming to be feminists think women are stupid and shouldn’t be allowed to make any decision except carrying a pregnancy to term.

Comment #34: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/17  at  08:06 PM

I don’t want to argue with Austin, especially considering my story is purely anecdotal, but if my parents had remained married, I might be dead. Nothing pleased me more than the day my mom finally told my abusive alcoholic father that he couldn’t come home.

I think children benefit benefit from divorce, as I did, when both parents are truly incapable of getting along. Unfortunately, until the incident where he nearly killed my mother and me, there was little in the way of “evidence” that could have been used to dissolve their marriage. My father was charismatic and most people liked him as, like all abusers, he was very good about picking their friends and hiding the most egregious abuse. And of course, until that night, he’d never hit me, but ten years of watching what he did to my mother was probably just as bad.

You’d really wish a LIFETIME of that on a child?

Comment #35: Cola82  on  05/17  at  08:35 PM

It’s also worth pointing out, since I know MRAs are fond of believing that wives turn their children against the father in a divorce, that my mom has long since forgiven my father, and urges me to do the same.

Whereas my father still insists she’s a dirty whore who left him for my step father, whom she met AFTER the attempted murder/divorce. It’s a wonder I’m not fond of spending time with him. Really.

Comment #36: Cola82  on  05/17  at  08:37 PM

Actually Austin, that looked a bit more like the pulled pork my husband made me for dinner - except the pigs were mature, not embryonic like the pigs in your video.

Comment #37: Ms Kate  on  05/17  at  08:48 PM

Funny how twits like Austin go on and on about “lifetime committment” and “good for children” and yet they oppose exactly those qualities in homosexual unions.  I’d say “make up your mind”, but that requires having a mind ...

Comment #38: Ms Kate  on  05/17  at  08:55 PM

The way I see it, Austin is a charming Catholic college student who’s focused on he’s going to remake society in the image of Humanae Vitae which will magically solve all of our problems. And while this is fun and all—I remember all my youthful intellectual experimentations, trying to advocate for a theocratic conception of public laws which has already been tried and has failed just isn’t worth taking seriously.

This reminds me of a guy on USENET who used to write proposals for modern neo-Byzantine constitutions that could be used for predominantly Orthodox countries and the time I flirted with being monarchist (I still kind of am). They’re fun though experiments, and, like Austin, I too wish that marriages would be for life and not end in divorce, but divorce has been a reality as long as marriage has existed, just as couples have wanted to figure out how to have sex and not be pregnant for as long as they realized that sex was what caused babies.

Unattractive men are probably worse off. But hey, that’s why they make video games.

Having been around nerds, video game programmers among them, through most of my adult life, one thing I can tell you about them is that they’re just as horny as anyone else but have far fewer restraits on them about what is considered socially “acceptable” when it comes to sexual mores and have a natural curiosity and willingness to experiment.

Comment #39: Tyro  on  05/17  at  08:58 PM

Bringing things back to the central thrust of the article(ie. feminism and the battle between right and left wing for the name), I think the difference is easy to explain. Feminism’s core belief - that men and women are equal and deserve the same rights and respect - is really such a vast ideological umbrella that once you get down to what that specifically entails, you could make a theoretical argument for just about anything. People with different experiences are bound to disagree on the details of how that equality is enacted.

I’m sure Sarah Palin does honestly think of herself as a feminist, and that the liberals who use abortion and contraception to destroy the sacred concept of motherhood and family are really the anti-feminists. Seen from her point of view, that has its own logic to it. Perhaps not sound logic but it is there, just as someone who argues against extending maternity leave probably thinks they’re doing so out of a desire for gender equality and ‘fairness’ within workplaces.

Plus let’s not forget that left-wing feminism isn’t a homogenous movement either - there’s still a sizeable gap between liberal and radical feminism, not to mention radfems themeselves if the furore over transgender women over the last couple of years is any indication. To make it clear, I do agree with the central thrust of the article. Feminism IS a primarily liberal, left-wing movement, but it’s easy to see why the concept of right-wing feminism is taking hold so easily.

Comment #40: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  05/17  at  09:17 PM

No, I’m posting pictures of your privilege.

We get that you’re into poorly produced, tissue-fetish fantasy propaganda; whatever, that’s your privilege. But how is that relevant to the discussion at hand? 

In any case, Ms Kate already mentioned this, but for future reference it’s best if you don’t assume we all live in lala land and have no idea what, you know, actual path specimens look like.

Comment #41: ema  on  05/17  at  09:19 PM

And I can understand why men are pissed about the sexual liberation. Only attractive men made gains. Unattractive men are probably worse off. But hey, that’s why they make video games.

I have no flaming clue how one would come to assume such a stupid thing. Did you think pre-sexual liberation men got a fair allotment of wifes, so that they all could get laid?

The truth is that in an actually liberated environment, your average ugly dude/loser is more likely to get laid, because fucking a guy doesn’t require nearly the same amount of economic and life-compatibility planning that marrying a guy does (and a woman’s daddy wouldn’t let her marry a loser who can’t support her; tale as old as the patriarchy). The only time this isn’t true is when the patriarchy assimilates sexual liberation and turns it into a competition instead, thus creating artificial “scoring” markers and creating an artificial attractiveness scale that everybody is supposed to agree with. Only then do those who score low on it not get laid; otherwise, tastes vary sufficiently that everybody becomes somebody’s type.

Comment #42: jadehawk  on  05/17  at  09:20 PM

wait… is Austin the same kid who didn’t understand how trees reproduce?

Comment #43: jadehawk  on  05/17  at  09:24 PM

“What I don’t understand is the mainstream media’s continued willingness to believe that there is such a thing as a conservative feminist, or that feminism can be separated from liberalism in any meaningful way.  I mean, I get that some liberals are sexists, but as a philosophy, feminism is simply a branch of a larger liberal belief in the basic humanity of all people.”

Yes.  It’s hard to believe people like Bill Maher and Matt Taibbi (who go back to the “misogyny = hilarious” well again and again) or Chris Matthews are considered liberal.  If you espouse hatred of women and telegraph fear of being seen as a “pussy” or having “no balls”, you’re reinforcing the central tenets of republicanism, the same republicanism that embraces war and laughs at torture and cuts people off benefits because it’s afraid of showing empathy because that’s what women do.  Bringing people around to feminism should be at the center of the democratic platform.  The day men stop being afraid of being compared to women is the day people stop voting republican.

Comment #44: ryang  on  05/17  at  09:32 PM

I love how Austin has conveniently forgotten the research posted here just a few days ago showing the divorce rates in more liberal areas of the country are dramatically lower than in more conservative areas. (And, since he’s a troll and not so good at the reading comprehension, RATES are independent of the number of people actually getting married)

Comment #45: jalmondale  on  05/17  at  09:32 PM

<blockquote>Unattractive men are probably worse off. But hey, that’s why they make video games.

Having been around nerds, video game programmers among them, through most of my adult life, one thing I can tell you about them is that they’re just as horny as anyone else but have far fewer restraits on them about what is considered socially “acceptable” when it comes to sexual mores and have a natural curiosity and willingness to experiment. </blockquote>

Actually I think where this stupid joke goes wrong is in the conflating of “unattractive” with “not conforming to standards of handsomeness as embodied in advertisements.” When “unattractive” means “entitled jerkward who can’t get away with rape any more” or “misogynist who can no longer rely on economic advantage to get women in bed” it makes a lot more sense.

Comment #46: paul  on  05/17  at  09:33 PM

Actually I think where this stupid joke goes wrong is in the conflating of “unattractive” with “not conforming to standards of handsomeness as embodied in advertisements.” When “unattractive” means “entitled jerkward who can’t get away with rape any more” or “misogynist who can no longer rely on economic advantage to get women in bed” it makes a lot more sense.

ah yes, that it does. poop poor assholes, having to chose between their assholitude and getting laid.

Comment #47: jadehawk  on  05/17  at  09:50 PM

I don’t mean to threadjack, but I have to get this off my chest. HuffPo is reporting that Bristol Palin is getting $30,000 per speech now. The EEOC asked a multi-billion dollar company to give me $10,000 for a sexual harassment complaint, and they came back with $600. Only one of us has value, apparently, and it’s not the feminist because she’s an uppity pain in the ass who insists on being treated like a full human being.

Comment #48: Liz212  on  05/17  at  09:50 PM

“Thus, abortion providers have to, on occasion, deal with anti-choice women seeking abortion”

It would blow your mind how often someone requesting an abortion mentions that they are “just SOOO against this.”  And that is just the people who bring it up.  I am sure there are plenty of anti-choicers as patients who have the social skills to keep those beliefs to themselves during the process.

Comment #49: GumbyAnne  on  05/17  at  09:57 PM

GumbyAnne—I doubt it, because so much of being Anti-Choice is in the Convincing Of Others That You Are A GOOD Person. Even if you aren’t technically anti-choice, so much of abortion rhetoric is tied up in making sure people know that you’re a good girl who would never have one yourself.

So a woman who finds herself in that “exceptional” situation where she realizes that she can’t carry to term has to try to do a little bit of damage control to convince people that she’s Still A Good Person.

Comment #50: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/17  at  10:38 PM

Austin - Do everyone here a favor and go masturbate with a belt sander using lemon juice for lube.

Comment #51: DTG in STL  on  05/17  at  10:41 PM

“Basically, we want to socially construct sexual relationships as lifetime commitments.”

This is ONLY ever a good thing if the sexual relationships in question are good enough, satisfying enough, and unproblematic enough to be worth the lifetime commitment—-throughout that lifetime. Otherwise one often ends up stuck with something that was not long-term sustainable, or else having to waste precious time trying to figure out whether someone is truly The One and worth risking it.  This is something that can’t be knowable beforehand, even if people didn’t grow and change, sometimes radically, over time and with experience, and as such does not belong in the category of irrevokable choices.

Romantic commitments should be created by constant reaffirmation, by continued wanting of that commitment by all parties involved, not by “it sucks but I’m stuck with it.”

Also, your opposition to birth control, whatever it is (I’m not clicking on your links), is ridiculous and counterproductive. I can’t conceive of their being anything along that line compelling enough to outweigh the practical reality that lack of birth control means more abortions.

Comment #52: Kyra  on  05/17  at  11:18 PM

is Austin the same kid who didn’t understand how trees reproduce?

Yes.

He also believes that there is a way to take the Pill therapeutically in which it doesn’t act as a contraceptive.

Comment #53: kristin  on  05/17  at  11:19 PM

OK, so forty-something percent of marriages ending in divorce (and an even greater percentage of cohabiting relationships with children) counts as real life stability?

Because the previous system where a man would simply abandon his family, never to be seen again, was clearly far superior to the current system where he has legal obligations towards his children.

Actually, from Austin’s POV, I can see why he would think that system was so superior.  Why should Newt Gingrich have to support his children when his church was willing to do it for him?  And Newt had to go to all of the trouble and bother of trying to get his soon-to-be-ex-wife to sign divorce papers in the recovery room after her breast cancer surgery when, really, he should have been allowed to walk off with his mistress and leave his wife to figure out how to support herself and the children.

Comment #54: Mnemosyne  on  05/17  at  11:23 PM

He also believes that there is a way to take the Pill therapeutically in which it doesn’t act as a contraceptive.

Ok…you gotta explain that one.

I’m assuming it’s b/c he’s got no real idea of how biology works, but seriously?  HOW does THAT work?

Again, though, it doesn’t matter that liberals who marry later and have children when they want have fewer divorces. 

We’re not marrying out of fear, and that makes us evil.  doesn’t matter that red staters divorce, b/c they’re Real Americans and they go to church and they’re Good People and they’re Saved and Ready for Rapture, so what they do, how they act?  Completely irrelevent.

Comment #55: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/17  at  11:28 PM

Okay, if I’m understanding the thrust of Austin’s point it’s so:

A lot of relationships don’t last forever.  Divorce is shown to be traumatic for children, and we want to reduce the amount of trauma in children’s lives as much as possible.  So far, so good.  I mean, I think “stability” is an overrated virtue most of the time and I think that being in poverty is probably a worse trauma for children, but over-all, let’s reduce trauma wherever we can.

What I’m curious about is how he makes the leap to “And therefore, we should disempower women, and make it hard for people to get legal divorces”.  If I followed his premises, wouldn’t the answer be “And therefore, we should be pushing birth control as much as physically possible, and making marriages incredibly difficult to get.”  I mean, if divorce is the problem, than why would we want to worry about the possible side effect of getting people in shitty relationships?  And his own quoted research is that “high conflict” marriages are worse for children than divorce.  But, if we make marriages harder to get, than we wouldn’t have as many divorces.  Maybe move the age up to 18, period, or even higher. Or say that you have to wait 6 months to get a legal marriage (or a year, whatever).  Or require a counsel meeting before marriage.  These would probably be ways that the government could keep divorce lower without having the horrible effect of people in crappy marriages stay in crappy marriages.

Or, is thinking about people’s happiness counter to Catholics? 

And, as someone pointed out, it’s the evil liberals that have the long-term, economically secure, low divorce marriages and families.  Why don’t you try that model for a while?

Comment #56: Antigone  on  05/18  at  12:34 AM

I have a friend who is studying counseling that wants to go into pre-marriage therapy, where she will try to make sure that couples are really compatible before they tie the knot. It is based on this crazy idea that you should have all your potential sources of conflict—views on finances, sexual compatibility, housework, etc—before you make a legal contract and involve children. Funny how conservatives don’t seem to call for such a thing.

Comment #57: alysia  on  05/18  at  12:45 AM

I thought Austin got banned when he started quoting the homunculus theory.

Comment #58: Rebecca  on  05/18  at  01:07 AM

Comment #58: kristin on 05/17
He also believes that there is a way to take the Pill therapeutically in which it doesn’t act as a contraceptive.

Well, it is possible to use hormones to regulate periods and ovulation and encourage general health.  Anyhow, they do have the warning on them to stop taking these when you become pregnant - which seems stupid to me, how is it going to happen?  But still, not outside of plausible.

The major difference between the faux-feminists and real ones is the former think that feminism is just females choosing to empower themselves.  But that isn’t feminism.  That’s just empowerment.  Feminism is about seeing both as equals - and not just in a gender-blind way.  So the second group of faux-feminists say they support equality, but they don’t support any means to measure or gain that equality.

Had this argument the other day, with some guys who were whining about how often feminism was done wrong.  They were willing to throw around female-gendered slurs and misogynistic preconceptions… But if called on it, they just said I was the bad feminist for not letting it slide.  ARGH.

Comment #59: Crissa  on  05/18  at  01:38 AM

Well, it is possible to use hormones to regulate periods and ovulation and encourage general health.  Anyhow, they do have the warning on them to stop taking these when you become pregnant - which seems stupid to me, how is it going to happen?  But still, not outside of plausible.

Not that some people take it for other reasons - that if you’re taking it for other reasons, it doesn’t act as a contraceptive. A new application of Intent is Magic!

Comment #60: Rebecca  on  05/18  at  01:40 AM

Anyhow, they do have the warning on them to stop taking these when you become pregnant - which seems stupid to me, how is it going to happen?

Come have a chat with my friend, who has an unexpected little girl running around her house.  99 percent effective means that as many as 1 out of 100 women using the Pill perfectly can get pregnant.

After their daughter was born, her husband had a vasectomy, because that comes a heck of a lot closer to being 100 percent effective than the Pill does.

Comment #61: Mnemosyne  on  05/18  at  02:32 AM

He also believes that there is a way to take the Pill therapeutically in which it doesn’t act as a contraceptive.

oh yeah! I remember that. I believe it was in the context of regulating irregular periods with the pill, so you can then use the Rhythm Method.

I nearly fell off my chair laughing when I read that. Aah, good times. :-p

Comment #62: jadehawk  on  05/18  at  02:54 AM

Anyway, back on topic: this sort of appropriating of feminism relates to what Amanda described a while back when Glenn Beck was getting all upset because Liberals dared to identify with the Civil Rights movement.

The values of modern society are, in the end, liberal values. Even Conservatives know this. And so they appropriate the labels for themselves, because it’s the only way for them to stay relevant in the modern culture.

Comment #63: jadehawk  on  05/18  at  03:02 AM

AAAANNNDDDDD, they still fail.  Massively.

Comment #64: Eric_RoM  on  05/18  at  03:52 AM

Austin, I checked your blog. Your reading comprehension is just awful. I can’t tell if you’re arguing in bad faith or have some sort of neurological problem.

Comment #65: Liz212  on  05/18  at  04:28 AM

Wow, this post really brought out the trolls, didn’t it? Between Austin boysplaining contraception (wrongly, again), the straw-feminist drive-by about unattractive men (wtf?), and the return of the crazy anti-atheist guy, this has been… actually quite entertaining.

Also, paul @ 51, nice catch about the ‘unattractive’ men losing out because of feminism being the ones with the unattractive personalities.

Comment #66: Nic_C  on  05/18  at  05:17 AM

I do not understand why, on a post only tangentially related to abortion - specifically a post mocking wingnut adulation for innocent fetuses as a thin cover for misogyny - do wingnuts like Austin have a vacillating desire to bring up some spectre of Little Adorable Baybeez Aborted By Those Callous Sluts. Does he not see the irony? Austin, kindly explain to me how plants reproduce again. I do with a laugh.

Comment #67: Princess Rot  on  05/18  at  06:54 AM

Did that guy @71 just threaten the lives of atheists for no apparent reason?? I’m starting to think that a lot of these people just need benzodiazapenes . . .

Comment #68: Liz212  on  05/18  at  07:43 AM

I believe it was in the context of regulating irregular periods with the pill, so you can then use the Rhythm Method.

Oh, that’s just awesome!

Now I have to know about the trees!  Do they use the Rhythm Method, too?

Comment #69: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/18  at  08:10 AM

“On a related note, what is with so many knitters being liberal? I knit, in part, because I love being feminine and domestic and I enjoy making things for my family. I know men knit and men have historically knit but in the recent past it’s been a very traditional, womanly thing to do. You’d think feminists would avoid that like the plague. Is that more of the “embracing what they used to hate” thing that someone mentioned?”
But I think the reason I like this bit so much is because of the part where she admits to knowing the historical reality and knowing that the myth she prefers to believe regardless of what she knows was only recently invented, and that she did it in the thread she started to complain about how liberals are willfully dissociated from facts.
-
If I search trees as keyword, am I going to find Austin’s comment? It sounds really entertaining to read.

Comment #70: colorlessblue  on  05/18  at  09:03 AM

I messed up the comment, I meant to say that I was quoting my favourite bit of “Feminism is man-hating because it is what I say it is”.

Comment #71: colorlessblue  on  05/18  at  09:05 AM

Well, it is possible to use hormones to regulate periods and ovulation and encourage general health.  Anyhow, they do have the warning on them to stop taking these when you become pregnant

Austin’s missing the point. The point is, if they give you the pill for your cramps, you will have the same ovulation-skipping effects as someone who takes it for that.  The effects of a drug aren’t dependent on what the patient wants.  If you want to get pregnant, you have to go off the pill.  I take Ortho for contraception; if my neighbor takes it to regulate her period, it still works as contraception.

In other words, Austin believes in magic.

Comment #72: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/18  at  09:27 AM

Amanda, you have to admit, there’s magic all up in this bitch.

Pills, man, how do they work?

Comment #73: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/18  at  09:29 AM

Mnem, it’s worse than that with typical use—-which means skipped pills, irregular use, etc.  99% is only with perfect use.

Comment #74: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/18  at  09:30 AM

wait… is Austin the same kid who didn’t understand how trees reproduce?

Yes. Here’s the thread containing Austin’s theory of plant reproduction:

When a female plant fertilizes a male seed, all it does is put biological material on top of the plant seed.  It’s like sprinkling salt on your food.  When humans reproduce, they create an entirely new, living organism.  They don’t put fertilizer or some other material on top of a seed like plants do.

When challenged, he later amends himself to note that the seed is “female.” All better! From there the thread gets funnier.

The way I see it, Austin is a charming Catholic college student who’s focused on he’s going to remake society in the image of Humanae Vitae which will magically solve all of our problems.

You’re correct overall, but there’s nothing charming about an authoritarian sexist who’s not only for forced birth but also for forced lifelong marriage. Replace “charming” with “deluded and ignorant” and it’s closer to the mark.

Did that guy @71 just threaten the lives of atheists for no apparent reason?

Yes. Meet Dennis Markuze (AKA “David Mabus”), who goes from atheist site to atheist site copypasting his howling threats (his last one was to threaten atheists with a “Crystal Night”). You think Austin’s stuff is crazy, Markuze is even nuttier—he incorporates the prophecies of Nostradamus and the ‘80s band Depeche Mode into his “proof” of the existence of god.

Markuze and Austin should really combine forces and take their reality-challenged act on the road, if for no other reason than to point fingers at one another and simultaneously say “oh no, he’s the crazy one!”

Comment #75: Gracchus.  on  05/18  at  09:32 AM

Sorry, I should have warned people not to drink liquids while reading that quote from Austin. Apologies for ruined keyboards.

Comment #76: Gracchus.  on  05/18  at  09:36 AM

People like Austin are why, despite not believing in hooey anymore, I go to Church every week and take Communion with my IUD up in my uterus.  Yeah, I’m in ur house of worship, desecratin ur Body and Blood of Christ.

Comment #77: Yawgmoth  on  05/18  at  10:03 AM

Wow, I was really hoping he was a 4chan guy or something. It’s pretty ill-advised to flame all these blogs with your lunacy, and also be listed as a contact person for your business, complete with address and phone number.

Comment #78: Liz212  on  05/18  at  10:12 AM

@ Amanda

In fact, sexual liberation and the right to divorce are so popular with men you almost have to wonder why the patriarchy didn’t just have those features, until you remember that patriarchy (like most authoritarian ideologies) is a negative, joyless system that prioritizes control so much that hurting the people of privilege in order to keep the oppressed down is considered a reasonable price to pay.

And thus was written one of the best summary of why the patriarchy is universally bad.

@ Geocrakr

As Elizabeth Warren has demonstrated, the additional income of working women did not increase the average family’s standard of living, but has merely allowed it to remain static throughout the economic assault perpetrated by the Republicans and Clinton Democrats over the last 30 yrs.

I was thinking the same thing.  It’s a patriarchy double-whammy if you will.  When we finally get around to pulling down the barriers that prevented women from going to work, in particular interesting, fulfilling, and/or lucrative work, in swoops the corporate wing of the patriarchy to essentially steal the extra money.

Comment #79: Richard Goblin  on  05/18  at  10:35 AM

What, liberals can’t knit?  I’m learning too much from this thread.

I learned to knit because I had a lot of down-time at work and needed to do something productive.  Of course, I got a lot of, “Oh, you’ll make such a good mommy!” and “Oh, is that for your boyfriend?”  Because no one could just fucking want to make a goddamned scarf.  For their own use. 

I thought we were all supposed to be on the pill all the time because otherwise it’s our fault if we get raped and get pregnant.  Now you’re telling me that taking the pill therapeutically will still make me pregnant if I’m not wishing for no-baby-magic?  Dammit.  What if I wish hard before I get raped?  Does it work then?

This is all soooo confusing.  I think I need a male to explain it all to me.

Comment #80: BonAppetit  on  05/18  at  10:54 AM

Wow, a comment thread about a troll. Congrats, everyone! In a similar vein, I am going to participate in a pick-up basketball game with some six-year-olds and regale you with my accomplishments in blocking their shots.

Comment #81: norbizness  on  05/18  at  11:06 AM

Isn’t the whole “use the pill to regulate your cycles, then use the rhythm method” thing from back when the guy who invented the pill was working with the RCC?  Like, his idea was that women with irregular cycles (who therefore couldn’t use the rhythm method with even a hope of success) could use it to bring their cycles in line with the “standard” 28 days while abstaining, then start using the RCC-approved rhythm method after going off the pill, and nothing about it would make baby Jesus cry.  I’m pretty sure that plantoid homunculi make all the baby deities cry, so no commentary on oh my god how could someone be so wrong about something what the fuck.

Comment #82: preying mantis  on  05/18  at  11:14 AM

As for demographics (mentioned in the original Digby post), does anyone else think this is a valid concern? If people with liberal values have very few children, and fundamentalists are teaching their flock to have hordes of kids (think the Duggars and the Quiverfull movement), that doesn’t bode well for the future. We know most people stick with the religious and political beliefs they were raised with. Converts are pretty hard to come by.  If fundie Christians are having way more kids, that will shift voting trends and social movements. It’s scary that the birthrate in Mormon Utah is the highest in the country.

Comment #83: Ashley Herzog  on  05/18  at  11:14 AM

Interesting how the right wing considers a policy or practice or position or law to be “feminist” if they can say that it “protects women”. 

But it is “leftist feminism” when women decide and declare what they believe is best for themselves.

Classic example: when Ireland legalized divorce, and the ChildDiddling Church blathered on and on about how forcing women to stay married was pro-woman because it protected them from abandonment - even if the husband who tried to kill them was rotting in jail.

Comment #84: Ms Kate  on  05/18  at  11:34 AM

Ashley, those fundamentalists can breed all they want - they are massively outnumbered by non-white babies now anyway.

Comment #85: Ms Kate  on  05/18  at  11:35 AM

We know most people stick with the religious and political beliefs they were raised with. Converts are pretty hard to come by.

Do we know that? I mean, look at the generational shift on any given issue.

Comment #86: Rebecca  on  05/18  at  11:36 AM

Hey Austin what do you think about this (a review of AMERICA AND THE PILL: A History of Promise, Peril, and Liberation By Elaine Tyler May):

Many will be shocked to learn how close the Vatican came to accepting the pill in the early 1960s. In the end, of course, Pope Paul VI sided with the minority of his advisory council (60 of 64 theologians had proposed ending the ban) and affirmed the church’s continued opposition to any form of contraception (save for the rhythm method, which they only approved in 1951).

See how close you Catholics got to deciding that the pill was fine.

Comment #87: JohnL  on  05/18  at  11:39 AM

preying mantis—sort of.  The reason women have ‘off weeks’ when they have to have a period is b/c John Rock was trying to convince both women and the Church that using the pill was ‘natural’.  That since it just mimicked the body’s natural hormones, it really wasn’t any different from using the rhythm method.  Both methods were intended to prevent pregnancy ‘naturally’ and come from an understanding of biology.

The church didn’t go for it—though it almost did.  Stupid Humanae Vitae came as a big surprise, and really hurt Dr. Rock, who was convinced that there was nothing sinful in his creation—there goes that Catholic “conscience is primary” dogma again.

The bishops/pope decided that trying to control your pregnancies by preventing conception was only a good thing if it involved abstaining and suffering and worrying about whether or not you succeeded.  If you prevent conception in any other way, especially in a way that lets you have sex when you want to, well, that’s bad.  Because.  And also.

The unfortunate side effect is that women now have many many more periods than ever in human history.  Increases in ovarian cancer can be linked to this, since every ovulation rips the ovary as an egg bursts out.  We’d all be better off if the Pill had been engineered without trying to please Catholic bishops.

Pretty much everything in the world would be better if people weren’t trying to please Catholic bishops.

Comment #88: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/18  at  11:43 AM

“We know most people stick with the religious and political beliefs they were raised with.”

Given how many kids from ultra-repressive and pro-misery doctrines and ideologies tend to run screaming from it the first chance they get, because, um, it’s repressive and miserable, I don’t think we actually “know” that.  There’s a reason the fundies do their damnedest to isolate their children from general society and keep them as dependent as possible on the sect for as long as possible—the parents may have chosen to wallow in unhappiness, but the kids were born into it, and the only way to reliably keep the kids from making a different choice is to deprive them of the opportunity.

And aren’t even younger (to use the given example) Utah Mormons generally way less ridiculous about homophobia, racism, women’s rights, etc. than the octogenarians running the temple?

Comment #89: preying mantis  on  05/18  at  11:48 AM

Ashley @89, the large numbers of folks who comment on this site who have often mentioned their wacked out conservative parents now know you haven’t been paying any attention.

Comment #90: helen w. h.  on  05/18  at  11:55 AM

There might be some people who reject their parents’ beliefs, but it’s not the norm.

http://gazettextra.com/news/2008/oct/24/party-training-parents-influence-childrens-politic/

Comment #91: Ashley Herzog  on  05/18  at  12:23 PM

Research shows that children tend to share their parents’ political attitudes—at least while they’re all still living under the same roof, said UW-Madison political science professor Charles Franklin.


By the end of the high school years, there’s a “high point of agreement” between parents and children, he said.

But during the college years, children who no longer live with their parents are “pretty malleable,” subject to influence from peers, the media and current events and issues, Franklin said.

People’s political attitudes are “more stable if not firm” by the time they reach the end of their 20s, he said.

From Ashley’s link.

The article is talking about the ‘young voters’ and how children (of 17-18) agree with their parents while living under the same roof.  Fundies try to extend that reliance on parents for as long as possible.

Small groups of crazies like the Quiverfull are not large enough to have a big impact on American society as a whole—even TLC waters down the Duggars for mass consumption.  Again, keeping those kids down on the farm is ESSENTIAL to maintaining control of their political thought The Duggar children do not have the education to survive on their own.  The eldest was married off young and has been given a part of his daddy’s business.  The burden of having to support his own children and his inability to survive without support from his parents/TLC will keep him spouting stupid shit.

Comment #92: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/18  at  12:48 PM

That’s why fundies homeschool their kids: to isolate them.

Political beliefs might be more malleable, but most people raised in authoritarian religious homes don’t give that up. First, to do so, you have to accept being rejected by your family. Mennonites cut off all communication with children who leave the religion. I assume other fundamentalists do that. Maybe not in such an extreme form, but there’s definitely “disowning.”

Hopefully, there’s not enough of them to compete with everyone else.

Comment #93: Ashley Herzog  on  05/18  at  01:04 PM

Comment #65: Rebecca on 05/17 at 11:40 PM
Not that some people take it for other reasons - that if you’re taking it for other reasons, it doesn’t act as a contraceptive. A new application of Intent is Magic!

Well, being as you can change dosage and application, it’s plausible your intent will change the result.  And many people call any hormone treatments ‘the pill’.

But I realize you’re talking about the people who argue there’s a difference between taking a swig of whiskey and a swig of an alcohol based cough syrup.  There is, but both contain alcohol, and just because you didn’t drink it to get drunk doesn’t mean you won’t get drunk.

Comment #94: Crissa  on  05/18  at  02:59 PM

I meant that there’s a warning on hormone treatments for those without.  If you’re without them - like post menopausal or any other way it doesn’t work right - I don’t know anyway to be fertile.

I suppose it’s plausible, but…

Comment #95: Crissa  on  05/18  at  03:02 PM

Comment #1: I can. I’ve seen so called liberal feminist (usually the crunchy mama Attachment Parenting unschooling crowd) declare you aren’t a real feminist unless you’ve given birth. Idiots.

Comment #96: pitbullgirl65  on  05/18  at  03:16 PM

I GUESS you could argue that unattractive men would be better off in a society where women were so desperate to marry that they would settle for the first man who came along - except that I doubt anyone would equate being “the man she settled for rather than be single” with being “better off.”

Comment #97: ttintagel  on  05/18  at  04:25 PM

Well, being as you can change dosage and application, it’s plausible your intent will change the result.  And many people call any hormone treatments ‘the pill’.

Errr, that’s not a case of your intent changing the result. That’s a case of what you do changing the result.

Comment #98: Rebecca  on  05/18  at  06:49 PM

We know most people stick with the religious and political beliefs they were raised with.

that’s not true. even the fundies themselves admit that 2/3 of their kids stop going to church once they move away from home.

and the level of scare-tactics used to keep kids from attending non-bible-colleges is based on this: pretty much any contact with a real college tends to erode a person’s beliefs. Do they all deconvert? No. But they usually go from fundy to liberal Christian, and a similar shift often happens in their politics.

Comment #99: jadehawk  on  05/18  at  07:24 PM

- except that I doubt anyone would equate being “the man she settled for rather than be single” with being “better off.”
If your only other option was “alone and miserable”, you probably would…

Comment #100: Devonian  on  05/19  at  12:50 AM

I GUESS you could argue that unattractive men would be better off in a society where women were so desperate to marry that they would settle for the first man who came along - except that I doubt anyone would equate being “the man she settled for rather than be single” with being “better off.”

Sure they would. She still has to wash his socks, clean his house and let him have sex with her either way, right? Who cares what she wishes she had?

Comment #101: kristin  on  05/19  at  04:27 PM

@89 This might interest you:

... The survey also indicates that the group that had the greatest net gain was the unaffiliated. More than 16 percent of American adults say they are not part of any organized faith, which makes the unaffiliated the country’s fourth largest “religious group.” ...

Pew’s 2008 religion survey is fascinating. Highly repressive faiths have low and declining retention rates. By example, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the faith I was raised in, have the lowest retention rate in the country. As the report summary concludes, “Only 37% of all those who say they were raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses still identify themselves as Jehovah’s Witnesses.”

The faith grouping with the highest retention rate from childhood is none. As in none of the above.

Comment #102: Natasha Chart  on  05/19  at  07:13 PM
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