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Next entry: Mad Men blogging: You can go sleep at home tonight if you can get up and walk away Previous entry: The Republican National Committee Enjoys Chicken Fingers

How come women are the only ones to blame in this?

FeminismMovies

I spend a lot of time thanking Sady Doyle for saying it, but I have to, because she’s so good.  Thanks for this, SadyAnn Hornaday’s editorial about “strong women” in movies, and particularly the inevitable box office failure of the Amelia Earhart biopic, felt like it was telling me to take my medicine.  When it comes to “Amelia”, I’m not averse to seeing it because I don’t like female protagonists, or because I don’t like Amelia Earhart.  It’s because I know how it ends, and I fear it’s going to be boring right up to the inevitable moment.  Want to bet that they gloss over details that would make the more sexually conservative audience members squirm, such the fact that Earhart questioned getting married until the day she did it, and called marital fidelity a “medieval code”

I feel at this point, there’s two camps on the question of female-centered, female-led, female-directed, etc. movies.  One camp claims that women don’t make ticket-buying decisions, period, and the other camp points to the successes of movies like “Sex and the City” and “Mamma Mia” to disprove this.  Hornaday admirably tries to take a third, more realistic stance, which is that women buy tickets, but they focus most of their money on silly stuff. 

The only problem? No Manolo Blahniks! No Abba! No vampires!.....

In an era when women in movies fall along a spectrum defined by Hannah Montana and “Twilight” on one end and “Sex and the City” and “Mamma Mia!” on the other, where are the screen heroines of yesteryear, who could be strong, serious and sexy?.....

To understand the situation of women in Hollywood right now, one need look no further than Drew Barrymore, whose career over the past year perfectly crystallizes the good-news/bad-news dichotomy. The ensemble romantic comedy she produced and starred in, “He’s Just Not That Into You,” was a hit. “Whip It,” the girl-centric action comedy that marked her feature directorial debut, was not…...

The conclusion is that women are buying tickets, but to the wrong movies, ones that are silly or sexist, and don’t have a feminist message.  Unfortunately, putting it that way just makes it less likely that women will buy the “right” tickets, as Sady points out—-it seems like we’re being asked to take our medicine by seeing “Whip It”, when the reason you should see “Whip It” is that it’s a lot of fun.  Sady suggests that women are shaping the market by looking for escapist fare, and I think that’s right, but again, it’s not like escapist fare is at odds with girl power or feminism at all.

Personally, I think plain old sexism explains the situation quite neatly.  Right now, the environment is such that women don’t have a lot of time in their schedules to see female-centric movies, because most people don’t go to the movies alone.  That means either getting a partner, a friend, or a relative to go with you.  The occasional movie focusing on female friends doing non-controversial things, in the tradition of “Steel Magnolias”, will get big box office because it gives women a reason to get together with female friends and go hang out.  But you can’t do that too often, because organizing that sort of thing is like herding cats, particularly since women often have a lot more family obligations than men that make getting together with friends hard.  “Whip It” followed the formula, except that it wasn’t non-controversial, since it was about violent sports and punk rock attitudes, so you’re automatically limiting your audience to younger women, instead of dipping into that cross-generational demographic that equals big bucks. 

And that’s about it for getting women to see a movie about women being friends with each other, getting female friends to go see it.  Sure, it’s true that in very small, enlightened circles, some men will consent to go seeing these movies with female partners, and it’s true that there are some women who partner with other women, but if you’re relying on those groups to really drive the box office, you’re probably not going to do well.  It’s a numbers game, after all. If women are going to the movies with men, odds are the men get the final say in what movie will be seen.  We don’t have to like this at all, but it’s kind of silly to pretend it’s not true.  Men don’t have to use overt bullying to get the final word.  The dynamic between men and women is still one where men get to unapologetically express preferences, and women accommodate and only feel right expressing preferences if they don’t step on anyone’s toes.  Putting your foot down and saying, “You picked the last 10 movies we saw, and we’re going to go see this movie that centers around female friendship,” just won’t fly with most heterosexual couples.  Some, sure—-so please don’t protest in comments that I’m full of shit because you have the rare egalitarian relationship.  And sadly, even a lot of women who decide to take this stance have to face the fact that any movie’s watchability can be denied with an eyeroll and the term “chick flick”.  I’m sure this is what happened to “Whip It”.  Romantic comedies have figured out how to get around this situation by casting actors that seem like manly men and injecting a lot of fart jokes to make sure that it doesn’t seem too prissy, and also by reinforcing retrograde gender roles.  Flouting all that still means box office poison.

That’s why I got so annoyed at the idea that it’s women falling down on the job of going to see the right movies.  Yeah, sure, but why is it all one gender’s fault?  Why can’t we expect men not to be so close-minded about what movies they want to see?  If men don’t go out and see female-centric movies that flout sexism—-and from the audience I saw at “Whip It”, I can assure you they don’t—-then this is going to keep happening.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:50 PM • (105) Comments

I don’t think Whip It had a weak box office because it was controversial. If anything, the movie was trying to capitalize on the recent popularity and trendiness of roller derby at the moment. Though I think last year would have been the optimal moment to capitalize on it. Really , though, Whip It’s weakness at the box office came for the same reason as Amelia’s—we have seen it before and we know exactly how it is going to turn out. I don’t think. Matt Damon’s Rounders was a big box office sucess, either, when it tried to capitalize on public interest in playing poker.

Comment #1: Tyro  on  10/26  at  01:08 PM

I didn’t see Amelia Earheart because it looked sappy and boring, and because I don’t like Richard Gere.  I saw Whip It and liked it.  I saw Bright Star and liked it.  I saw freaking Julie and Julia and liked it.  So what part of my duty am I not doing exactly, according to these editorials? 

The same decision-making skills I used to not see Amelia Earheart were also in play when I skipped that Gerard Butler/Jamie Foxx crapfest that is out now.  Is somebody going to write an editorial about how much better that film would have done if it hadn’t used the death of women as an excuse for men to fight each other and blow shit up?  No?  Then Hollywood can eat it.

The next movie I’m going to see is An Education.  Some women like to see good films.  Because they are also people.  Imagine that.

Comment #2: Eileen  on  10/26  at  01:09 PM

All great points, Amanda. I think this bizarre hand wringing about the Earheart movie is just another kind of faux feminist woman shaming.  Look, making a movie about an historically and culturally important woman is very nice, and all that—but one movie doesn’t change the dynamics of the entire movie watching population, or the market.  I’m one of those women who can’t find time to go out to see movies with anyone, let alone my (male) spouse.  But when I do get a chance to go out to see a movie I, too, would prefer to see something I’d enjoy rather than something that is biopic medicine that is supposed to be good for me.  What’s wrong with movies about vampires, or shoes?

Men’s movies in this country routinely give the male audience what it wants—whether its T and A, or lots of toys blowing up, or whatever. The job of the moviemaker who wants to make money is to give the audience what it wants, not lecture them on how low their taste is.  And oddly enough men are never lectured to about the stupidity of their interests, or their obvious demand that, for example, men, testosterone, and a fictional america always win out over a horde of undifferentiated foreigners.  Men’s movies in this country—the majority of movies—don’t get made to instruct or uplift men. They get made to make money selling men what they want.

Dropping gender issues Americans like movies that engage them, titilate them, romance them, offer them a break from their ordinary lives. Women might like just a tiny bit of the deference that is paid to the male audience and they might like to see lots and lots of movies with heroines *who don’t die mysterious but obviously at the end of the movie*.  Historically movies in which the main character dies unfulfilled don’t do well in America. We practically don’t make them. It takes crouching tiger/hidden dragon style foreign films to go to that dark place where the girl doesn’t get the guy and all doesn’t end well.  Why would anyone think that Earhart would do well? You couldn’t pay me to see the movie and I’m a god damned feminist.

aimai

Comment #3: aimai  on  10/26  at  01:24 PM

I just don’t like Richard Gere. Basically my wife and I will never come to agreement on “Pretty Woman,” which I think is one of the worst movies of all time but she likes. Ugh.

Comment #4: woolie  on  10/26  at  01:30 PM

I have no idea how “Whip It” is doing at the box office, but I saw it over the weekend and had a great time. It’s not perfect by any means, but it’s hugely entertaining. It’s one of those movies where you can tell everyone had a good time making it, and that carries over to the audience.

Comment #5: Bitter Scribe  on  10/26  at  01:33 PM

I dunno. Was this actually advertised? Cause I’m interested in seeing it but the first time I heard of it was reading this article, so maybe that has something to do with it.

That and the industry is still chasing box office, which is (surprise) going to unfairly privilege movies that “can’t be seen outside the theatre” such as blockbusters and action movies where the spectacle of 14 foot high explosions doesn’t translate as nicely to a TV screen. On the longer scale, these films tend to do better as people rent them and buy the DVDs.

I think the tag team of institutional sexism and the chasing of the box office as the only standard of success are the two big factors that fuck over women-directed, women-centric movies. Especially when studios handicap their creations as much as they can pre and post creation.

Comment #6: Cerberus  on  10/26  at  01:36 PM

Bitter Scribe, according to Box Office Mojo “Whip It” has made 12.3 million in 3 1/2 weeks of release, with a production budget of 15 million.  So it didn’t do too well, but nobody is going to lose their shirt from it either. 

I think that people shouldn’t be able to frame something as a failure unless people have lost money on the endeavor.  That will not be the case with “Whip It”, so although it might have disappointed expectations it is not a flop, and it is certainly not proof that women don’t deserve to have movies made about their experience.

Comment #7: Eileen  on  10/26  at  01:37 PM

Another good point here, which I think just about everyone is ignoring:

That Dillinger biopic from this past summer was boring, too.  Somehow nobody blamed it on the fact that it portrayed nuanced male characters and was made by an accomplished male director.

Sometimes movies are boring, and that’s just the way it is.  In fact, I’ll go out on a limb here and say that just about any biopic wherein the ending is most of what people know about the person (Amelia Earhart disappeared, John Dillinger got mowed down outside a movie theater, Howard Hughes went nuts, Sylvia Plath stuck her head in an oven…) is probably going to be pretty boring.  They should make biopics about little-known people, not major historical figures or characters from American quasi-mythology.

Comment #8: The Opoponax  on  10/26  at  01:38 PM

I’m pretty lucky in that G. is perfectly willing to see “girl” films, and even enjoys them.  He’s the first straight guy I ever met who liked the Emma Thompson version of Sense and Sensibility (or at least the first one to freely admit it).  He won’t go see the stereotypical chick flicks like Sex and the City but, frankly, they don’t interest me, either.  He wants to see Whip It, but we never seem to actually get out to see movies anymore now that we’re old and often end up working until 7:00 or 7:30 at night.

I think the factor of women going to movies together is a vastly underrated one.  One of the big reasons that My Big Fat Greek Wedding was so popular was that it was a movie you could take your mom and/or grandmother to and they would enjoy it.  We really have lost the whole idea of the “family film,” as in a film that the entire family enjoys, not just a film for children that adults have to endure.  Let’s face it, George of the Jungle didn’t make $100 million because it was great cinema.  It made $100 million because it made kids laugh and it had Brendan Fraser in a loincloth to keep the moms, grandmas and aunts entertained.

Comment #9: Mnemosyne  on  10/26  at  01:43 PM

Oh, and re “I haven’t heard of this movie…?” and the big worries about the box office numbers—since when do quiet period biopic films ever win big at the box office?  They’re Oscar fodder. 

Same goes for cute spunky Drew Barrymore movies - those are made to rake in DVD sales/rentals with high school girls.  Whip It is probably going to be the Girls Just Wanna Have Fun of the class of 2015.  That’s why you make that sort of movie; not because you think it’s going to make a hundred million dollars on opening weekend.

Comment #10: The Opoponax  on  10/26  at  01:45 PM

The exception on the biopic film is “Milk”, which I think was interesting, because even though we know how it ends, most of the public doesn’t really know how it ends.  In that, we know that Harvey Milk is shot, but we don’t know why.  That mystery fed the movie.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/26  at  01:47 PM

In fact, I’ll go out on a limb here and say that just about any biopic wherein the ending is most of what people know about the person (Amelia Earhart disappeared, John Dillinger got mowed down outside a movie theater, Howard Hughes went nuts, Sylvia Plath stuck her head in an oven…) is probably going to be pretty boring.

Well, except that The Aviator wasn’t actually boring.  It helped that he showcased some of the less well-remembered incidents in Hughes’ life, like his plane crash in Beverly Hills.  It stopped before they got to the really cliched nuttiness in Las Vegas.

Comment #12: Mnemosyne  on  10/26  at  01:50 PM

Here’s why I haven’t seen a movie recently (or, one reason at least):  I haven’t passed a movie theater in Nashville in the 2.5 months I’ve lived here.  Actually, I’m going to go look them up right now and find the nearest one.  Aside from know what’s playing at a given time, passing a theater helps me remember to get out and see something if I want to. 

Ok, found one.  At the big ass mall, one the busiest road in town.  Blargh.

Well, now I’ll maybe go see a movie soon.

Comment #13: rowmyboat  on  10/26  at  01:56 PM

I’m not sure Whip It! failures was that either.  The film was perfectly watchable; I didn’t feel ripped off, but it wasn’t all that great either; I wouldn’t (and didn’t) recommend that any friends go out of their way to see it.  The advertising that I saw for it didn’t particularly push it as a “film for the ladies”, and if it hadn’t been for a couple of feminist-oriented blogs touting it as somehow progressive or feminist, I probably wouldn’t have noticed.  Ellen Paige + former Arrested Development actor was already a demonstrated formula ( smile ) My guess is Drew Barrymore as a rookie director doesn’t sell very well ... dunno.  Add Jimmy Fallon, and I’d wager most sensible people would avoid it like it’d give you the plague.  If the theatre you were in was very woman-heavy, though, I’d guess there was some kind of “women should want to see this movie” type marketing, either deliberately or by word of mouth.

Now, I can’t honestly say I noticed anything about the theatre’s demographic when I was there.  The total attendence I can swear to is three men, one woman; but there were obviously other people in the theatre (I’d remember if nobody else was there)  But you’re not going to sell anyone on “You have an ethical obligation to go see this movie”, if you don’t convince people they’ll enjoy it, they won’t go.  I’d guess the actual difference in difficulty between marketing a movie with a female protagonist to a male or female audience is pretty minimal (and ditto a male protagonist).  The bigger issue is that movies targeting men as an audience aren’t usually made with female protagonists (though I’m sure one could think of examples, typically horror films), and we don’t seem to care. 

Amelia will be ass, of course, and nobody will go, because the previews make it look like balls.  One can make good, watchable and popular movies with female protagonists, either “strong” or “weak”, but one can also make terrible movies fitting the same descriptor.  Yeah, some people will attribute it’s failure to a female lead; I’ve no idea how many.

Comment #14: Brian  on  10/26  at  01:59 PM

Confession: I didn’t see The Aviator—it’s just what immediately came to mind when I thought of “recent period biopics”.  It might actually be awesome.

Comment #15: The Opoponax  on  10/26  at  02:00 PM

That Dillinger biopic from this past summer was boring, too.  Somehow nobody blamed it on the fact that it portrayed nuanced male characters and was made by an accomplished male director.

Funny thing, I so wished to see the Dillinger movie in theater but in a reversal of the usual sexist trend of men refusing to go to ‘chick flicks’, my girlfriend refused to go with me even though it featured her fantasy second boyfriend, Johnny Depp. Because it was a biopic, basically. But come on! It has *bank robbers* in it. And Dillinger ain’t some mythical legend north of the border, so it’s not like she knew how it would end.

But our couple’s movie choices are sort of unusual. She’s always after the latest horror flicks (BTW: Trick ‘R Treat was *awesome*, which was a million times better than my expectations). While I occasionally rent romcoms as a guilty pleasure (if any rolling of eyes at ‘chick flicks’ happens in our couple, it’s probably going to come from her). Our usual points of contention is when I want to see something geeky (Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy) VS her wanting to see something scary or gory.

Comment #16: BlackBloc  on  10/26  at  02:05 PM

“Same goes for cute spunky Drew Barrymore movies - those are made to rake in DVD sales/rentals with high school girls.  Whip It is probably going to be the Girls Just Wanna Have Fun of the class of 2015.  That’s why you make that sort of movie; not because you think it’s going to make a hundred million dollars on opening weekend.”

This, or at least I suspect this is a large part of it. The market for this sort of movie, at least in my experience is going to wait for it to be on DVD, or even “worse” for this particular market, will rent it. There’s probably some feminist related reasons for this, lack of time being the biggie, but it is what it is.

Actually, I highly suspect that these types of movies are seen to be better experienced in the comfort of ones own home, as well.

Comment #17: Karmakin  on  10/26  at  02:07 PM

Amelia feels like a vehicle that will send two conflicting messages to viewers depending on their politics.  For people who think women are people:  Talented and eccentric person takes on awesome task and tragically fails.  For people who embrace the status quo:  Uppity woman steps out of line and is summarily slapped down by God himself, and rightfully so. 

I probably won’t see the movie because I don’t need anymore of what’s behind Door #2.

Comment #18: bellacoker  on  10/26  at  02:09 PM

Amanda:

Why can’t we expect men not to be so close-minded about what movies they want to see?

I was with you on everything but this.  The point is for both genders to go see the movies they like to see, not that men need to “take their medicine too.”  Neither gender should be forced to take the Castor Oil of sitting through a movie they don’t like.  Is it that hard to just say, I think Michael Bay movies are boring blowing-shit-up characterizationless crapfests, I’m going to go see Whip It which is about 3-dimensional people instead?

If the point is that men need to “take one for the team” more often in the name of the relationship instead of it always having to be the woman, then I agree you’re right.  Relationships can’t be a one-way street.  But you can’t expect that to result in men actually liking movies they hate.  (Though it might, on occasion…)  Tastes differ.

(As an aside, I have no interest in seeing Whip It, not because it’s about women but because I don’t get roller derby as a sport.  In that regard, it’s probably like Slap Shot for the non-hockey fan.)

aimai:

Historically movies in which the main character dies unfulfilled don’t do well in America. We practically don’t make them.

Americans want to identify with the hero.  Even anti-heroes have to get some sort of redemption in the end, some hope that all the shit we go through in life has some meaning and some chance of working out for the best.  That it really is possible to overcome overwhelming odds and be successful.

One counter-example:  Citizen Kane is great precisely because the main character dies unfulfilled, despite his unbelievable wealth.

Comment #19: liberalrob  on  10/26  at  02:11 PM

Yes, this, I totally agree with you, Amanda! I fortunately have a male partner who was excited to see Whip It! with me, but we do see an awful lot of action/comedy type movies that he’s more interested in. And even though Whip It! had a lot of the elements of male sports comedies, except with women - teammate bonding, sex, scrappy underdogs finding success - it also featured “women” and “emotions,” two things men are told over and over again they’re not supposed to care about.

When I wanted to see Mamma Mia, I couldn’t even find female friends to go with - so I wound up going alone when I had a day off work.  As for Amelia, I was initially intrigued but the reviews made it sound so boring that I decided to skip it. I don’t think it’s fair to try to guilt women into seeing crappy movies just because they’re female-led dramas - I do think it’s fair for women to ask their male partners/friends to see good movies about female characters, and for men to have an open mind, and for studios to market these films as for both genders and to make GOOD movies about women, so that when one opens and sucks it doesn’t become a commentary on women directors/actresses/stories, but a reflection on the film itself.

Comment #20: susanstohelit  on  10/26  at  02:17 PM

BlackBloc - I discovered the boringness of the Depp/Dillinger thing after vetoing Teh Boy’s first choice of Transformers.  Which makes it, in fact, almost the exact equivalent of the Amelia vs. Twilight faux controversy.  Why aren’t any irate bloggers whining away about how men choose explosions and talking robots over complex male characters, and how that obviously undermines their ability to make valid choices about entertainment?

Comment #21: The Opoponax  on  10/26  at  02:19 PM

“That Dillinger biopic from this past summer was boring, too.  Somehow nobody blamed it on the fact that it portrayed nuanced male characters and was made by an accomplished male director.”

Well said

Also, we all know what happened to the Titanic, but “A Night to Remember” and “Titanic” were successes

I’m not intrigued by an Amelia Earhart movie.  Has nothing to do with it being about a strong female, its just not that interesting of a story and it doesn’t have the advantage that a period costume drama has in showing a world that’s completely different then our own

Offer me a movie about 30’s aviation with zeppelins, flying boats, or ford trimotors and my interest is peaked, But the 1st woman to make a trans-Atlantic flight (and she does it in an Electra – a damn ugly plane)?  Well its cool that she did it but I don’t think I want to watch her do it for 90 min

Comment #22: jefft452  on  10/26  at  02:31 PM

eileen, actually a 15 mil budget film that makes 12.3 at the box office is in fact, considered a flop, because that 12.3 mil doesn’t all go back to the studio.  theatres take a HUGE cut off the top of ticket sales, and theatrical distributors take theirs.  by the time the ticket revenues get back to the filmmakers, we’re looking at maybe half the box office amount you read in variety that’s actually credited to paying back the investment in the film.  that’s still another 9 mil or so to get back into the studio’s hands before this film is even in the black.  whip it isn’t going to make money, but that’s ok.  many, many good films are not commercially successful.

sorry, pedantic point but it’s such a common mistake i feel obligated to point it out.

i saw whip it, because it looked like “my kind of movie” for lack of a better word.  amelia earhart did not.  actually there were a lot of guys in the theatre when i went, but i live in LA.

Comment #23: chareth cutestory  on  10/26  at  02:31 PM

The fact is that the overwhelming majority of biopics are ponderous snoozefests.

And it seems to be the case that the more famous the subject, the more likely the film is to suck.

There are a few exceptions, but the trend is pretty strong.

Comment #24: Nobody  on  10/26  at  02:31 PM

“The point is for both genders to go see the movies they like to see, not that men need to “take their medicine too.””

Why not?  Do you honestly think women never have to see a movie they’d rather not?  Relationships involve two people and, yes, are sometimes about compromise.  Sometimes my boyfriend has to watch Julie and Julia; sometimes I have to be a video game widow.  It’s not the end of the world.  I don’t think the tables need to be turned altogether, and I’ll agree that it would be best if the society we live in didn’t gender things so strongly so that doing something your SO likes wouldn’t have to be considered “taking your medicine”.  But, jesus, seeing an occasional chick flick isn’t going to kill you.

Comment #25: The Opoponax  on  10/26  at  02:35 PM

Well, but opoponax, I think the issue is that its only *women* who are lectured for either being too trivial (wanting to see chick flicks) or too serious (wanting to have the option to see downer feminist movies with female leads) while men, in general, are allowed to do what they want without cultural carping. 

Of course in a relationship its “about compromise” and usually we try to be in relationships with people who enjoy doing and seeing the things we want to do and see. But the original thrust of the post, and of the articles that spawned it, was that for rather obvious reasons it is women and women’s choices that are problematized and pathologized while men’s are naturalized and even valorized. (got a quotient of ‘ize words to use up, apparently.)

And, btw, The Aviator was one of the few biopics that really was terrific. Partially because we didn’t really know, or remember, Howard Hughes and the directors and writers managed to tie him in with larger political and economic as well as moral issues. I’d also recommend the movie about the Hoaxer who pretends to be Hughes’ buddy *even though* it was richard gere. He was brilliant in it and I totally forgave him for all the other lousy films he’s been in.

aimai

Comment #26: aimai  on  10/26  at  02:45 PM

“eileen, actually a 15 mil budget film that makes 12.3 at the box office is in fact, considered a flop, because that 12.3 mil doesn’t all go back to the studio….”

Missing the part where I said that the movie had been in release 3 1/2 weeks.  12.3 is not the final tally by a long shot.

Comment #27: Eileen  on  10/26  at  03:15 PM

Cerebrus #6: <blockquote>I dunno. Was this actually advertised? Cause I’m interested in seeing it but the first time I heard of it was reading this article, so maybe that has something to do with it.

That and the industry is still chasing box office, which is (surprise) going to unfairly privilege movies that “can’t be seen outside the theatre” such as blockbusters and action movies where the spectacle of 14 foot high explosions doesn’t translate as nicely to a TV screen. On the longer scale, these films tend to do better as people rent them and buy the DVDs.

I think the tag team of institutional sexism and the chasing of the box office as the only standard of success are the two big factors that fuck over women-directed, women-centric movies. Especially when studios handicap their creations as much as they can pre and post creation. <blockquote>

I agree. I was very interested and tried to spread the gospel but I didn’t see nearly as much hype about this as I did, say, ‘Observe and Report’ or “Iron Man.’ I doubt either of those movies were objectively better or less boring than anything Mira Nair can crank out with one hand behind her back.

Comment #28: snobographer  on  10/26  at  03:16 PM

Sorry about the messed up tags.

Comment #29: snobographer  on  10/26  at  03:17 PM

Neither gender should be forced to take the Castor Oil of sitting through a movie they don’t like. 

I think the point that Amanda was trying to make was that men should broaden their horizons, and like more varied stuff. The way it stands now, in order to enjoy movies women have to identify with male characters because the female ones are so one dimensional and stupid. Men don’t have to do that. They also get to be pandered to, whereas movies where women are pandered to are few and far between.

Liking a movie not made by demolition experts shouldn’t be “taking their medicine”.

Comment #30: ammonoid  on  10/26  at  03:27 PM

Opopponax: How could they fuck up a movie with a crew of larger than life bank robbers, and the obsessive J. Edgar Hoover trying to catch them? Seriously, how did they fuck it up and make THAT boring?

You have removed what little faith I still had in Hollywood. :( (and I’ll still probably rent it)

Comment #31: BlackBloc  on  10/26  at  03:31 PM

As for Transformers, you can’t convince me that the Dillinger film could be worse than THAT pile. You probably ended up going to the least of all evils. (That particular period of a few months had pretty much nothing worth watching, I mean except for Dillinger I can’t remember anything that was on at the time.)

Comment #32: BlackBloc  on  10/26  at  03:33 PM

It’s the same, tired “girls will play with boy toys/watch boy shows, but boys will NEVER EVER EVER play with girl toys/watch girl shows” meme that was stupid and easily disprovable in the early 80s but has taken on the illusion of well-known law of nature over time.

Yes, women see boy movies that their dates want to see.  Men also take women to see girly movies that they want to see—b/c men want women to agree to the date.

Again, this “Amelia” movie, which, frankly, looks boring, is going to be used as a sledgehammer to “prove” women’s movies don’t sell, while any number of failed boy’s movies will just be failures.

It’s sexism and stupidity.

Comment #33: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  10/26  at  03:36 PM

When it comes to “Amelia”, I’m not averse to seeing it because I don’t like female protagonists, or because I don’t like Amelia Earhart.

Whereas I’m not seeing the film because Nair has been irritating me since “Kama Sutra” (that goes for “Vanity Fair” and “Monsoon Wedding,” too). I actually do love the history of AE and wish someone like Antonia Bird or Claire Denis had tackled the subject instead.  They wouldn’t have cast Gere, to start with…

Now “Bright Star”—-that I can’t wait to see.

Comment #34: Ranylt  on  10/26  at  03:44 PM

I thought the Depp/Dillinger movie was pretty good, really my biggest complaint was the craptacular cinematography (seriously, at one point I wondered if Mann handed the camera to his teenage son and told him to “make it edgy”).

I would have liked a little more meat with the character development, but Depp did a great job as he often does.

Comment #35: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/26  at  03:46 PM

It’s sexism and stupidity.

My favourite combo!  Your “sledgehammer” chiasmus is right on; I had the same reaction to some Guardian article last week about women going on mat leave “too often” who are “ruining” it for other women—because one woman doing something (anything) that’s perceived as wrong at the workplace is representative of “woman”, but a bad male employee is still just an individual jerk. 

Hate.

Comment #36: Ranylt  on  10/26  at  03:51 PM

Also: You would get more men into movies about the endearing friendship between women if more of them followed the “cannibalism!” model. I know it would get me to see more of that glurge.

Comment #37: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/26  at  03:54 PM

’d also recommend the movie about the Hoaxer who pretends to be Hughes’ buddy *even though* it was richard gere.

It’s called The Hoax, oddly enough.  wink  It is a very interesting movie and if you don’t like Richard Gere, he’s actually supposed to be smarmy, so that goes a long way.  The Orson Welles film F for Fake has a thread about the same story along with a couple of other hoaxes.

Comment #38: Mnemosyne  on  10/26  at  04:02 PM

And as long as I’m on a movie-recommending kick:  seriously, dudes, Coraline, especially if you have kids who are about 10 and up.  Go rent it right now.

Comment #39: Mnemosyne  on  10/26  at  04:06 PM

Oh, and re “I haven’t heard of this movie…?” and the big worries about the box office numbers—since when do quiet period biopic films ever win big at the box office?  They’re Oscar fodder

Well, The Aviator sort of contradicts that theory.  It was both Oscar fodder and a fairly huge box office success - $214 Million worldwide, $104 Million domestic.  Granted, it had a $110 Million budget, so one could argue that it only became really profitable because of a huge international reception, but in the end, the studio still walked away doubling their investment.

Comment #40: DTG in STL  on  10/26  at  04:09 PM

clearly 12.3 isn’t the final tally, but increasingly opening weekend is what determines the fate of most widely released films.  it’s unlikely that some kind of resurgence will bring people out in droves over the next few weeks to bring in enough ticket sales to bring 9 mil+ back to the filmmakers.  some of it will come from DVD sales and on-demand distribution, but DVD isn’t what it used to be either.

Comment #41: chareth cutestory  on  10/26  at  04:09 PM

Monkeyshines—it’s because feminists are all about the dental hygiene, and Pretty Woman was the first movie to overtly state the importance of flossing.

Comment #42: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/26  at  04:11 PM

Pretty Woman was the first movie to overtly state the importance of flossing.

Didn’t one of those Katherine Heigl movies, where she gets paired up with some schlubby loser, have her going apeshit with delight because the object of her affections believed in flossing? I didn’t see it, of course, but vaguely remember a trailer.

Comment #43: Bitter Scribe  on  10/26  at  04:16 PM

A studio dumped a biopic in the middle of October?  They knew it was going to flop.

Comment #44: keshmeshi  on  10/26  at  04:18 PM

MonkeyShines:

Not to speak for every feminist or even everyone who likes Pretty Woman, but it is a story about a woman getting what we have been promised our entire lives and what no one ever really gets.  It is a movie where a self-sufficient woman is given every privilege that women have to give up in order to embrace feminism.

Just because I, as a feminist, know that the promise is a fake, bait and switch, woman hating meme, that doesn’t mean I haven’t internalized every piece of art I was fed my entire childhood and or that I wouldn’t like the things that art says I deserve.

Comment #45: bellacoker  on  10/26  at  04:21 PM

I like Richard Gere.  I like Julia Roberts too.

But I didn’t like Pretty Woman, because it sucked pachyderm ass. 

It also blew.

Comment #46: TruthOfAngels  on  10/26  at  04:22 PM

my biggest complaint was the craptacular cinematography (seriously, at one point I wondered if Mann handed the camera to his teenage son and told him to “make it edgy”).

It looked like it was shot on video—old school analog video.  There’s just no excuse for that.  Marion Cotillard was amazing in it though.

Comment #47: keshmeshi  on  10/26  at  04:24 PM

Also, we all know what happened to the Titanic, but “A Night to Remember” and “Titanic” were successes

Well, that’s because, at least for the latter, James Cameron managed to hit the two clichéd moviegoing audiences.  The first hour was all relationship stuff for the women, the second hour was a combination chase movie (the pursuer being water) and Big Shit Breaking In Interesting Ways for the guys.

Yes, I am stereotyping, but (I never saw it in theatres, so I can’t comment on what my reaction would have been) that’s pretty much how my friends who did see it reacted.

Of course, I’m the guy who only watches the Kong vs V-Rex battle and pretty much skips the rest of the film, so I may be biased.

Comment #48: KeithM  on  10/26  at  04:26 PM

In order for me to watch a movie, it must follow 3 criteria: it has to have at least 2 male characters, they have to speak to each other at some point, and the subject of their conversation must be something other than one of the women characters.

I literally have not been to the movies since Inglourious Basterds.

Comment #49: Viceroy Matt  on  10/26  at  04:33 PM

#13: For big movies, I went to 100 Oaks (corner of 65 and Thompson Lane). Not sure if it’s still there though, because I haven’t been to Nashville in a few years. For indie stuff, it’s really difficult to beat the Belcourt (on 21st near Vandy). You’re right, though, movie theaters are in short supply in Nashvegas…

Comment #50: Jeff  on  10/26  at  04:36 PM

It looked like it was shot on video—old school analog video.

HD, actually.  Mann was trying something fairly new.  And it has really polarized people; critics tend to love result, non-critics tend to hate it.  I haven’t seen it, personally, so have no opinion one way or the other.

Comment #51: Ranylt  on  10/26  at  04:38 PM

I want to know why they can’t make more good science fiction movies with female leads where things blow up. That’s what *I* want to see.

I won’t see Amelia Earhart, or Whip It, or a romantic comedy, or a chick flick, because they are not sci-fi/fantasy and that’s pretty much the only kind of movie I want to see. But why is every goddamn fantasy movie about a boy’s coming of age story? Girls have coming of ages, too, and there is a huge universe of fantasy novels out there besides Harry Potter and Eragon. Hell, I would watch a fucking Anita Blake movie (in fact, given that they’d have to take the porn out, I would watch an Anita Blake movie with bells on, because it would *have* to go back to the earlier books and quit with the harem fantasy bullshit). There are *tons* of novels right now about women with paranormal powers of some kind, and we know this shit is popular, but where are the movies? We just get crappy Twilight. I would *love* to see Anita Blake. Bad-ass vampire slayer, zombie reanimator, and a sexy short Hispanic chick, who is torn between her job, the really hot bishonen vampire, and the Sensitive New Age Guy werewolf? Come *on*, audiences would eat that shit up. Women would go for the hot bishonen vampire and the hot New Age Guy werewolf, and men would go to watch a sexy Hispanic chick stake vampires and blow shapeshifter brains out. Get a good actress, and you have a franchise on your hands, and you can make as many movies as you can keep an audience for, since Laurell Hamilton shows no sign of ceasing to *write* the damn things.

Or how about Honor Harrington? I’ve never read the books, but big budget space opera with a woman captain? They sell well to men *and* women, so why not? Why do we get frickin’ Eragon and not Honor Harrington? Resident Evil did well enough for three movies; did no one learn anything from this? Like, the world needs more movies where Milla Jovavich gets to blow things up?

I am not going to go see a movie I would never have chosen to see if it was about a man, just because it’s about a woman. But I *will* spend my money on buying crap like Ultraviolet on DVD to try to send the message that if you make a crappy action flick with a woman as the lead, it will get bought, and maybe you could actually try making a *good* action flick with a woman as the lead.

Comment #52: Alara J Rogers  on  10/26  at  04:49 PM

Didn’t one of those Katherine Heigl movies, where she gets paired up with some schlubby loser, have her going apeshit with delight because the object of her affections believed in flossing? I didn’t see it, of course, but vaguely remember a trailer.

I wouldn’t know because I haven’t seen it, but it sounds like something out of Knocked Up.  It fits with the Apatow tradition of lowering the bar for male behavior so far that a beautiful, successful woman would be impressed by basic hygiene.

Comment #53: Sour Kraut  on  10/26  at  04:50 PM

As I said on the Salon site, I won’t be going to see Amelia because I loathe schmaltzy love stories and that’s what all the promos I’ve seen have made it out to be.

And secondly because Amelia was 10 years younger than her husband, the subject of the schmaltzy scenes in the ads. Hilary Swank is 25 years younger than Richard Gere. Yuck. That’s a big turnoff right there.

But as someone else asked, why are films geared to men just failures, whereas if films geared to women flop, it’s because they’re geared to women? Or a male star can have a series of flops and won’t get blamed and still will receive the $$$ to appear in a movie, but if a woman does the same, it must be her fault and her asking price drops.

Comment #54: louC  on  10/26  at  05:10 PM

But I *will* spend my money on buying crap like Ultraviolet on DVD to try to send the message that if you make a crappy action flick with a woman as the lead, it will get bought,

Hey, Ultraviolet wasn’t that bad.  Mind you, I didn’t like it as much as when I first saw it starring Christian Bale and it was called “Equilibrium”.

Comment #55: KeithM  on  10/26  at  05:22 PM

I co-sign with Alara.  Those are my kind of movies.

Comment #56: lonespark  on  10/26  at  05:22 PM

I wouldn’t know because I haven’t seen it, but it sounds like something out of Knocked Up.

No, this was after Knocked Up. I think it was called The Naked Truth, or something like that.

The only reason I have even a vague memory of this is because Heigl was quoted as saying after Knocked Up that she thought the whole hot-babe-pairs-with-loser thing is a transparently phony ploy to appeal to losers. I was a little surprised to see her going back, apparently, to the same formula after saying something like that. Oh, well, what do I know about showbiz.

Comment #57: Bitter Scribe  on  10/26  at  05:24 PM

HD, actually.  Mann was trying something fairly new.  And it has really polarized people; critics tend to love result, non-critics tend to hate it.  I haven’t seen it, personally, so have no opinion one way or the other.

It wasn’t just the quality of the picture, it was the quality of the shots: the shootout in Little Bohemia was seriously amateurish work. Like I said, it looked like they handed the camera to a teenager who’d watched too many episodes of COPS and thought he could do that sort of workup on the standoff. Actually, it gave me more appreciation for the camerawork (or maybe editing?) that guys who do reality shows are capable of pulling off because the panning, zooming, and general lack of understanding about how to work a camera was really breathtaking in that scene. Also, free tip: if you’re showing something that’s written, fucking use a steadycam. Don’t use a shakeycam if you’re expecting your audience to read something. Tools.

(deep breaths)

Comment #58: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/26  at  05:31 PM

Alara, I like your ideas.  The Anita Blakes lost me at about book #10 - they had really gotten hyper-bestial by that point - but the first few books, hell yes I’d watch the movie versions.  I’ve read the Honor series start to finish; I hesitate to recommend it to you (don’t know if you’ve read any Weber - he can be pretty tedious), but I’d be intensely interested in a cinematic version of that, myself.

/sci-fi threadjack

Comment #59: GSDavis  on  10/26  at  05:32 PM

alara, totes agree.  part of what has always drawn me to sci-fi/fantasy in the first place is the possibility of alternate realities, some of which offer criticism and analysis of the real world, or show us what we could do in this world.  it’s plenty doable to have sci-fi/action/fantasy genre films that don’t pander to the most deplorable sexist tropes in entertainment.

Comment #60: chareth cutestory  on  10/26  at  05:38 PM

Actually, it gave me more appreciation for the camerawork (or maybe editing?) that guys who do reality shows are capable of pulling off because the panning, zooming, and general lack of understanding about how to work a camera was really breathtaking in that scene.

MP, you will get no argument from me about the misuse of hand-held cam in Hollywood—though I would replace “reality tv” with “Danish/Dogme cinema” to see how hand-held camerawork can be effectively (non-vomitously) and artfully used.

Anyway, the Filmspotting guys really illuminated the whole debate about Mann’s HD/lighting and hand-held/editing a while back.  Like I said,  holy polarizing. 

/technical threadjack

Comment #61: Ranylt  on  10/26  at  05:42 PM

Just a completely somewhat irrelevant aside, but the recent mania for shaky/handheld “authentic realism” camerawork has driven me away from more movies than I can list.  Movies, mind you, that I WOULD normally want to see.  That crap gives me seizures, and I’m not being dramatic - because of a childhood brain injury I can’t handle 3-D, shakycam, or any sort of entertainment where the cameraman twitches around.  I instantly get a headache and have to leave the theater (that killed the BSG rewrite for me as well.)  The thing that bugs me is that in many cases it’s completely unnecessary, not really reinforcing the moment or the point of view, but is done merely because it’s cool.

I think a factor in the discussions above I’d like to see expanded is the underlying societal assumption that a “Real Guy” can’t enjoy anything BUT explosion movies, because anything with plot, drama, or conversation might tinge him with the label of being interested in art or cinema, and therefore - wait for it - GAY.  “Real Guys” only see non-explosion movies when forced to by the evil harpies who control their lives, ruining their natural enjoyment of explosion movies with women who serve as convenient decoration.  What do you all think?

Comment #62: tannenburg  on  10/26  at  06:04 PM

I third Alara’s post. I enjoy a good drama but enjoy sci-fi and horror movies more and I’m a sucker for hot guys and shit that goes “boom” (It got me into the theater to see Fast and Furious and pretty much anything with Jason Statham, except for Crank 2). For me, the sci-fi/action spectacles I feel I need to see in theaters, as someone pointed out above it just looks better than on TV where as with dramas I can wait till it comes out on DVD and see it in the privacy of my own home cheaper. As for Amelia, there was just nothing interesting about that movie to me.

With the entertainment industry, sexism plays a large part but I’d add laziness to that. Everyone’s looking for as close to a “sure thing” as possible and if they can greenlight another superhero movie over taking a chance on something new or different then they’ll do it. This just gives them another reason to pick the traditional “chick lit” stuff like HJNTIY over Whip It next time, which is fucking sad. I work in the industry and from my dealings with studio executives it will only get worse before it gets better.

Comment #63: UltraMagnus  on  10/26  at  06:06 PM

Alien and Terminator did well, and they had strong woman characters.  The Resident Evil movies both opened #1 when they came out.  But I think it’s lame, in this instance, to ask “what’s wrong with audiences?”  The problem is the movies, themselves.  Neither of the movies being discussed, Whip It or the Amelia Earhart flick, are movies my wife would want to see.  So I don’t feel like it’s on me to be the one who wants to see them.  Whip It looks like it’s for 17 year olds, and the Amelia Earhart movie looks corny.

I think there is a lot of inequality in movies.  I think it’s conventional that both men and women put their foot down on movies they won’t see, but guys are 10,000 times more assertive about it (a woman will veto this movie or that movie, men will veto entire genres).  And seemingly every movie needs to include something about a man attracted to a woman, but stories about women being attracted to men are pretty much automatically considered chick flicks (barf, man – who wants to see a movie about women thinking guys are hot?).

But I think it’s a mistake to cling to these two particular examples.  These are not two particular movies that deserve to do better.

Comment #64: Wallace  on  10/26  at  06:21 PM

I’d be happy to go see Whip It except that it’s not actually playing in my city. I’m not sure I’m dedicated enough to take a road trip just to go see it. So I’ll be Netflixing it! Oh noez! That’s almost like not watching it at all, that I won’t take upwards of four hours out of my day to watch a two-hour movie!!

Alara: I hear they’re making an Anita Blake TV series. At some point. Also, I recommend TrueBlood. In general, I feel like TV shows are doing better on the ‘having decent female characters’ front than movies these days, although that’s probably just because there is SO MUCH *STUFF* on TV that they’re statistically bound to spit out something decent once in a while.

Comment #65: thecynicalromantic  on  10/26  at  06:23 PM

God, that “shakycam” shit is everywhere.  Hate it hate it hate it.  Hated it even more when BSG used it in their CGI sequences.  Yeah, it’s more “realistic” see, because we’re zooming in and out and panning the virtual camera around!  Look what we can do with computers!  Ugh.  Hand me the dramamine.  Just shoot the damn scene, please, is that too much to ask?

I liked Ultraviolent.  More for the cinematography than the story, per se, but it was cool.  Very cyberpunkish, I thought.

Sign me up for Honor Harrington.  (Also a Girl Genius movie.)  But it’s written by a guy, does that count?

Opoponax:

Why not?  Do you honestly think women never have to see a movie they’d rather not?  Relationships involve two people and, yes, are sometimes about compromise.

I believe I said as much.  I was more trying to point out that expecting/demanding men to like movies they go to see for “relationship maintenance” isn’t realistic.  Just as it isn’t for women.  Different people like different things.  Also, dragging your SO to a movie they don’t want to watch isn’t my idea of a fun date, relationship maintenance or not.

Comment #66: liberalrob  on  10/26  at  06:26 PM

No, this was after Knocked Up. I think it was called The Naked Truth, or something like that.

The Ugly Truth, which I didn’t see either.  Tho I think Gerard Butler played a successful chauvinist rather than a dateless loser in that one.

Heigl may not like the formula, but she has to pay the bills, I guess.

Comment #67: Sour Kraut  on  10/26  at  06:35 PM

I don’t know whether this was mentioned already because I’ve only skimmed the comments, but something that really irritated me about this article was this assumption that movies with female leads and/or strong female characters that fail fail to some extent because they are about women. It can’t be the crappy writing or poor marketing or whatever else. No, no….it has to be the fault of some woman, somewhere.

I almost stopped reading the piece when I got to this:

The failure of “Duplicity,” the Julia Roberts caper comedy that came out earlier this year, is often mentioned as yet another death knell for meaty women’s roles.

Really? Duplicity was a Julia Roberts caper comedy? I didn’t see it, but from the commercials I saw I thought it was a Julia Roberts/Clive Owen caper comedy. All of a sudden it fails and it’s all on Julia? Maybe people just hate Clive Owen.

The mention of Jodie Foster’s The Brave One irritated me too. I like Jodie Foster, thought Panic Room and Flightplan were fun movies to watch (though I don’t know how well they did). I like those kinds of movies, but I didn’t see The Brave One because paying money to see a woman get raped - even if she gets some sort of revenge afterwards - is not my idea of fun. I love thrillers and horror flicks (not torture porn) but hate the use of sexual threats/violence in movies. It just seems lazy to go there when you have a female character, and I don’t enjoy watching it.

Comment #68: antiope  on  10/26  at  06:38 PM

“The first hour was all relationship stuff for the women, the second hour was a combination chase movie (the pursuer being water) and Big Shit Breaking In Interesting Ways for the guys.”

true to a point, but if it was a modern cruise ship it wouldnt have worked
I think you needed all the Edwardian upstairs-downstairs stuff
“The Love Boat vs the Iceberg” would have flopped

Comment #69: jefft452  on  10/26  at  07:07 PM

I saw The Ugly Truth, and it was fairly antifeminist, but not a terrible movie.  The one glaring thing I would have changed was to have Heigl’s character sleep with the hot neighbor before going after True Love.  I guess that would make her a total slut?  Bleh.  I don’t remember anything about flossing, though.

Comment #70: lonespark  on  10/26  at  07:11 PM

A while back I read an analysis claiming that Hollywood has divided the moviegoing audience into four basic demographics, and to be considered a potential success a movie has to appeal to at least two.  The demographics are:

Young men—Want to see action movies, horror movies, raunchy comedies, hot women, and up-and-coming male stars.  Of the four groups, they pay the least attention to reviews or word of mouth, so movies made for them don’t have to be any good.
Young women—Want to see horror movies, romantic comedies, hot men, and up-and-coming female stars.
Older men—Think they have refined tastes, but mostly want gritty thrillers featuring venerable male stars like Clint Eastwood.  They’ll also see some of the same movies Young Men see, like action movies and raunchy comedies.
Older women-Want to see good movies, regardless of genre.  This is the group most likely to read reviews, watch award shows, and seek out smaller films.  They also like “women’s pictures” starring accomplished actresses like Meryl Streep.  They’re the hardest audience to pander to, so studios generally just ignore them until Oscar season rolls around.

Every couple of years, the Young Women and Older Women join forces and turn a chick flick like “My Big Fat Greek Wedding,” “Sex and the City,” or “Mama Mia!” into a blockbuster.  Usually, though, Young Women and Older Women don’t like enough of the same things to push a film that appeals only to women over the top.  “Julie & Julia” is a perfect example of a film engineered to appeal to both female demographics: you’ve got a romantic comedy with a popular starlet for the Young Women and Meryl Streep in another brilliant performance for the Older Women.  “The Devil Wears Prada” became a surprise hit by doing exactly the same thing.

But the easiest combos to hit are Young Men/Young Women (horror movies, action movies with romantic or comedy elements, Judd Apatow-style raunchy romantic comedies) or Young Men/Older Men (big-budget action movies, Will Ferrell-style dude comedies), so these movies make up the bulk of Hollywood product.  Studios love making movies for Young Men because they’re the easiest to get into the theater—you basically just need explosions and/or boobs in the trailer—and also, probably, because a lot of young studio executives personally like those pictures and don’t get “The Devil Wears Prada.”  You think you’d see more big-budget action movies with female leads to hit the Young Men/Young Women/Older Men triple combo, but for some reason Hollywood hasn’t been able to make a good one since the massively successful Alien and Terminator franchises.

“Whip It” got too many mixed reviews from critics for the studio to reel in the Older Women, so all it has are the Young Women.  “Amelia” wants the combo of Older Men (gritty drama starring venerable actor Richard Gere) and Older Women (Oscar bait starring accomplished actress Hilary Swank), but Hollywood has not had good luck with 1920s-30s biopics recently, the trailers look boring, and everyone already knows how the story ends.

Comment #71: Shaenon  on  10/26  at  07:20 PM

I think there is a lot of inequality in movies.

And it feeds back to the marketing theology of segmenting.  Boys won’t see girl movies, and girl movies must be defined as crap.  Girls will see boy movies, so anything remotely good must be marketable to men, or must have a lot of things blow up real good.

If they would just let people make movies, without market researching them to death, we might actually get movies worth watcihng.

Comment #72: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  10/26  at  07:27 PM

Older women-Want to see good movies, regardless of genre.  This is the group most likely to read reviews, watch award shows, and seek out smaller films.  They also like “women’s pictures” starring accomplished actresses like Meryl Streep.  They’re the hardest audience to pander to, so studios generally just ignore them until Oscar season rolls around

Well, most older women, perhaps, since this older woman is an action junky.  In fact, the older I get, the shorter my attention span and the lower my tolerance for yappy, dialogue-driven drama.  As a rule, I can’t handle reality either, so the majority of my favorite movies include a SF, fantasy or horror element.  If something isn’t exploding, guns aren’t firing, then there had better be aliens or zombies, or superheroes.  Vampires are cool, but they’d had better be the lovely, bloodthirsty variety seen in “Blade,” as opposed to the emo, stalker type from “Twilight.”

I love it when a film features a strong female protagonist, as in “Terminator” or “Aliens,” but I’m not going to see a movie simply because it’s about women.  Both the Earhart and roller derby movie have nothing that would appeal to me.  And as someone noted in the thread above, biopics usually suck rocks.

Sign me up for Honor Harrington.  (Also a Girl Genius movie.)

Girl Genius…strong female lead and a steampunk setting.  Yes!

Comment #73: adobedragon  on  10/26  at  07:46 PM

I’m the type of person to whom serious biopic movies are marketed, and I still wouldn’t see Amelia.  I agree, most movies that center around how a famous historical figure died tend to be complete bore fests. 

I’m dying to see Whip It, but ticket prices around here just passed the $10 mark, that’s on top of $4 each for the bus ride to and from the theater.  (And oh yeah, my husband is unemployed at the moment, I was trying to forget.) For $28 I can buy the special edition DVD box set, with fifty thousand hours of behind the scenes extras and commentary from everyone down to the last gaffer and production assistant.  When movies aimed at women fail it’s women’s fault, but when movies aimed at men fail it’s the fault of the movie or the economy.  Women aren’t allowed to be discerning viewers, apparently.

Comment #74: Godless Heathen  on  10/26  at  07:55 PM

But why is every goddamn fantasy movie about a boy’s coming of age story? Girls have coming of ages, too, and there is a huge universe of fantasy novels out there besides Harry Potter and Eragon.

Well, there was The Golden Compass, but that 1) wasn’t nearly as good as the book that it was based on, and 2) the book trilogy was written by an outspoken atheist as the “good version” of the Chronicles of Narnia…

Comment #75: Doug S.  on  10/26  at  08:34 PM

So, X-Men should have been the most successful movie ever?  Hot dudes & ladies, scenery-chewing big name dramatic actors, action… Lord of the Rings, too…

Comment #76: lonespark  on  10/26  at  08:55 PM

And secondly because Amelia was 10 years younger than her husband, the subject of the schmaltzy scenes in the ads. Hilary Swank is 25 years younger than Richard Gere. Yuck. That’s a big turnoff right there.

Worst recent movie in that regard?  De-Lovely, with 57-year-old Kevin Kline as Cole Porter and 36-year-old Ashley Judd as his wife, Linda.  Not only do you have a real-life 21-year age gap between the leads, in actuality Linda Porter was 8 years older than Cole Porter.

Comment #77: Mnemosyne  on  10/26  at  09:05 PM

Godless, yea, the problem I have is that they want $10 a pop to see a movie in a theater, when I can netflix movie after movie for $11 a month.

Comment #78: shannon  on  10/26  at  10:20 PM

Sorry to disagree with everyone but you’re wrong, unfortunately there is a significant difference, and it isn’t just sexist hype. Here’s why Whip It was a tremendous failure: regardless of budget, it featured two of the most prominent contemporary actresses in hollywood and it didn’t even make enough to break into the top 100 highest grossing films so far this year. The sad fact is that very few actresses can consistently ‘open’ a film in the same way the top male actors do. Sure there have been exceptions over the last twenty years or so but most of them (Meg Ryan, Jennifer Aniston, etc.) prove the rule. Women will go to see them in films like romantic comedies where they play a passive role but not in films outside of that genre where they have to play the active role in the film*. Very occasionally you’ll get someone like Julia Roberts who transcends that for a while but it’s rare.

Contrast that to actors like Di Caprio, Cruise, Gibson and Pitt. At their respective peaks you could pretty muchc rely on them to open a film all of them could Men go to see their action films but like them enough as actors to sit through their romance-oriented films on dates. And teenage boys go to the cinema enough in groups so that the likes of Transformers and Fast and Furious can always rely on a certain-sized take as a fallback. I don’t want to lay any blame out but that’s the reason - actresses just don’t have the fanbases actors do and that’s why they don’t get leading roles as often. Likewise, there’s yet to be a female director who’s handled huge budgets consistently well which is why hollywood still thinks they ‘can’t be trusted’.

*By that I mean for instance, Julia Roberts and Jennifer Grey play passive roles in Pretty Woman and Dirty Dancing respectively because they rely on the male characters to lead them along in those movies, whereas Sigourney Weaver in Alien or Julia Roberts in Erin Brockovich would be considered active roles since they have most of the screen time and the film is driven by their actions and decisions.

Comment #79: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  10/26  at  10:39 PM

The Harrington books would *not* make good movies, IMHO.  A large part of the “blow shit up” factor would have to have dumbed down considerably - missile envelopes and grav shields do not good visuals make. They’d have to go more for the “Battlestar Galactica” style of combat, which would be horribly wrong for the books.

Likewise, the political situation would have to be dumbed down a bit.  Alas, i think it would be very easy to turn into Monarchists GOOD - Socialists BAD as the American Right seems to have a taste for self-righteous monarchism.

In general, short simple books make better movies.

I also have to question whether Harrington is, in fact, female.  I think Weber wrote her as neuter until he started running out of plot ideas and introduced Tankersley.  If you’re going to have a female lead, by God have her female rather than a pair of false tits under a uniform. Ripley in “Aliens”, for example, turned her maternal role into something epic.

“Girl Genius” might work, but wasn’t the last attempt at steampunk “Wild Wild West” which flopped miserably?

Comment #80: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/26  at  10:41 PM

However having said that, it’s becoming an increasingly moot point since more and more of the money in hollywood is being made by kids’ films which, as someone pointed out above, do well because they often involve the whole family buying tickets and are more than ever the default choice for a family activity.

Comment #81: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  10/26  at  10:41 PM

Women as action heroes:  Hoo rah!

The whole Alien series, the whole Terminator series, one offs like Starship Troopers which had a couple of kick-ass women, the Resident Evil series was great (third movie a little disappointing), and I even liked the live action Aeon Flux (where else can you see a cameo by Pete Postlethwaite as a walking foreskin?).  Ultra Violet is watchable, although I was disappointed with the results.  The Lara Croft movies weren’t all bad.  Rachel Weiss played a tough heroine in the first two Mummy flicks.  There were several strong female characters in the two Riddick movies.  Dame Judi Dench is the best M in all the Bond flicks.

So, we’re all agreed:  Hollywood, make more sci-fi-ish action movies with kick-ass women in leading roles.  Okay?...

Comment #82: MikeEss  on  10/26  at  10:59 PM

Phoenician, you’re right. I haven’t read those books but as soon as I saw your comment I got a vision of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

Comment #83: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  10/26  at  11:06 PM

Looks like I might be the only person on the thread who has seen “Amelia.”  Strange to say, my (male) partner wanted to go.  Saturday night.  Decently full in the theater, but you got the stench of a loser flick.  It’s not worth seeing for the reasons people here have said. 

I think the better way to do Amelia Earhart on film would be like Oliver Stone’s “JFK”—that is, stray from the record and skip the plodding, linear biography.  Make the character fictitious, Hilary Swank as a 20s-30s aviator with a different name.  Instead of a mysterious crash, have her captured by the Japanese and become Tokyo Rose, broadcasting on the radio to U.S. enlisted personnel.  As a rumor about Earhart, that tale was almost certainly nonsense: but at least there’d be some suspense and conflict.

If that’s too risky, a better script would have helped.  The “Amelia” screenplay blew.

Comment #84: Unree  on  10/26  at  11:06 PM

I think it’s too soon to say if Whip It will be considered a failure.  Everybody I know who’s seen it really enjoyed it, but it’s already out of theaters here, so my friends and I are going to wait until it comes out on DVD.  With the economy being so bad, we really couldn’t afford to go to the movies anyways.  Heck, I wanted to see Zombieland too but I just don’t have the money.

I won’t watch Amelia for the same reason why I don’t watch movies like the Aviator or Ray.  I don’t give a damn about biopics.

Comment #85: Foxling  on  10/26  at  11:27 PM

Had another thought looking at recent box office numbers.  I notice that Bruce Willis’ film Surrogates tanked at the box office.  It cost $80 million to make but only made about $37 million.  Likewise Astroboy cost $65 million to make but has so far only taken in $6 million.

I think it’s obvious that audiences just don’t want to see male leads in movies.

Comment #86: Foxling  on  10/26  at  11:34 PM

“Whip It” Box Office: $12,293,893

That goddamn Tucker Max movie “I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell” Box Office: $1,357,585

“Whip It” made over TEN TIMES what Tucker Max made, yet “Whip It” is some sort of repudiation of movies for women and a total failure while the Tucker Max flop in no way at all reflects on dumb misogynist dude flicks.

Also, I was really excited to see “Amelia” until I heard audio clips during an NPR review and it sounded like the worst writing ever, really truly ever. I liked “Whip It” as did my husband, who last I checked is in fact a man, with a penis even.

Comment #87: jessilikewhoa  on  10/26  at  11:39 PM

Jess, the tucker max film was a low budget flick with no name director or actors. The lead and best known actor is most famous for being a supporting actor on the Gilmore Girls. Drew Barrymore, who has demanded eight figure sums for films before, directed, starred in and heavily publicised Whip It - the scales are a bit different. As for Surrogates, it definitely reflects a trend, one against older actors in action films (especially sci-fi action). The exact age depends on the individual but franchises aside, everyone has sell-by dates for certain types of films. As you get older your options drop, which is one reason why everyone in hollywood is so desperate to appear youthful. 

But I’m also willing to guess Willis’ laughable hairpiece played a big part as well.

Comment #88: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  10/27  at  12:20 AM

I enjoyed Whip It, but I was one of the only ones in the theater. Sad thing is, they publicized the shit out of that movie(Drew Barrymore, Ellen Page, and Kristen Wiig were EVERYWHERE promoting it) and they couldn’t even get a decent opening weekend.

It seems like Angelina Jolie is the only woman that can open an action film, but her “Art” films bomb.
And Drew Barrymore, Jennifer Aniston, and Katherine Heigl can open romantic comedies, but not anything else. Hilary Swank does well when she plays butch, but her comedies and costume dramas bomb. It would seem to me that women get more rigidly typecast, earlier in their careers, than men do.

Comment #89: Bruce from Missouri  on  10/27  at  01:12 AM

No Manolo Blahniks! No Abba! No vampires!.....

1) Who the hell is that?
2) Abba my grandmother listens to, because it reminds her of the roller discos of her youth.
3) The best thing that-dude-who-plays-Edward-Cullen ever did on screen was get his face stomped on by Lord Voldemort.

Comment #90: Princess Rot  on  10/27  at  07:41 AM

“Phoenician, you’re right. I haven’t read those books but as soon as I saw your comment I got a vision of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.”

If you’re talking about the comics, hooray! If you’re talking about the movie, suck.

That’s a nice example of Hollywood removing a strong female main character and making her a sidekick, but that’s just one of that movies interminable sins.

And I really have distaste for people who attempt to use Hollywood-speak like “open a film” and peruse the box office like its a box score. And for people who claim knowledge of why movies fail or don’t, when the people who get paid a lot to figure that out can’t do so.

Comment #91: witless chum  on  10/27  at  08:01 AM

The best thing that-dude-who-plays-Edward-Cullen ever did on screen was get his face stomped on by Lord Voldemort.

Amen.  I’d like to see Edward the Emo Vampire go 3 rounds with Deacon Frost.

Comment #92: Sour Kraut  on  10/27  at  11:22 AM

So, X-Men should have been the most successful movie ever?  Hot dudes & ladies, scenery-chewing big name dramatic actors, action… Lord of the Rings, too…

Well .... not exactly, but the Lord of the Rings films are 2nd, 9th, and 17th in gross revenues, Pirates of the Caribbean are 3rd, 6th, 37th, All the Harry Potterses ... Titanic, of course, was a truly epic firehose of money, and it’s no surprise Cameron gets to make whatever he wants, on whatever budget he wants.

Comment #93: Brian  on  10/27  at  11:24 AM

Jess, the tucker max film was a low budget flick with no name director or actors

Yeah, but before it opened it was advertised constantly, like I couldn’t fucking escape the ads with Matt Czuchry sneering as Tucker Max (yeah, I know the actors name, yeah, I own the entire Gilmore Girls series on DVD), and the Tucker Max book was on the NYT bestsellers list for four years. They did a college tour in promotion. It should have done far better, and it failed. Yet it’s failure means nothing, and Whip Its failure means women won’t go see movies. That’s fucked.

Comment #94: jessilikewhoa  on  10/27  at  12:28 PM

I also have to question whether Harrington is, in fact, female.  I think Weber wrote her as neuter until he started running out of plot ideas and introduced Tankersley.

Well, she is supposed to be an “homage” to C.S. Forester’s Horatio Hornblower…I can see how you might think that.  But I also think Weber (like his buddy John Ringo) believes that being in the military and being successful as a soldier and leader means putting aside the concept of gender roles completely.  There is only the “army way” of doing things; the principles of warfare are not male or female, they simply ARE and you either follow them or you get beaten.  It’s not so much that Honor Harrington is “neuter” as she is (as the heroine) the most gifted military tactician and strategist in the universe.  You should also check out Weber’s more recent book, The Fury.  Alicia DeVries could as easily have been Alexander DeVries, but it wouldn’t have been as good a story.

Comment #95: liberalrob  on  10/27  at  02:11 PM

Well, she is supposed to be an “homage” to C.S. Forester’s Horatio Hornblower…I can see how you might think that.  But I also think Weber (like his buddy John Ringo) believes that being in the military and being successful as a soldier and leader means putting aside the concept of gender roles completely.

I don’t mind putting aside gender roles in sf (go Telzey Amberdon!).  I disagree with desexed human beings - hell, Bel Thorne from the Vorkosigan series was way more identifiable. She wasn’t even deliberately asexual - she didn’t make sense as a *human being*.

Comment #96: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/27  at  03:29 PM

Maybe I missed it, but what about the possibility that “Amelia” is just a bad movie? It’s what—16% on Rotten Tomatoes right now?

Whip It! on the other hand, was pretty much universally praised. I saw it the weekend it came out. I really liked it. But Amelia? It’s a sappy biopic where Hillary Swank talks funny. It’s not like many of the people here were lining up to see it.

Call me crazy, but Whip It! seems like one of those movies that will find new life in DVD and cable. It’s just too good and too much fun to not eventually reach its audience.

Comment #97: Hippie Killer  on  10/27  at  03:53 PM

I also have to question whether Harrington is, in fact, female.  I think Weber wrote her as neuter until he started running out of plot ideas and introduced Tankersley.

Well, considering he was introduced in the very first book…

The various Grayson plots initially rely on Harrington being a woman.  That started in the second book before the relationship with Tankersley, which was in the third.  Having Harrington be male would have changed the entire novel, wouldn’t have made much difference in the third book (having either a gay relationship, or Tankersley being a woman), but again would have made a massive difference in the fourth, again set on Grayson.

Comment #98: KeithM  on  10/27  at  05:20 PM

Ripley in “Aliens”, for example, turned her maternal role into something epic.

Ironic that you choose that character as the example of a strong woman, because the character was written as male. As written, all the characters in Alien were male, and during the pitch, the writers said any of the characters could be women if necessary. It’s why she didn’t get a first name until the second movie, and even that was cut out of the theatrical release.

Weber has been very clear on why Honor Harrington comes off the way she does. Set in the far future, in a society that is based on complete gender equality, he says that it doesn’t make any sense to try to force into it issues that would read as contemporary women’s issues, like equal pay or condescending bosses. He has repeatedly said that it was his intention to write a society that actually had solved the problems we’re working on now. That’s why she deals with the military problems as a Naval Officer and a tactician who happens to be a woman.  Her personal issues, like balancing relationships and a consuming career, she deals with as a woman, but one dealing with men who are dealing with the same issues on the same playing field. But you see her superiors and subordinates dealing with her because of her talent and character (including the ones who try to take her down for it), but from a gender-blind viewpoint.

I agree that the Fury book would make a kick-ass movie, and the original shorter version wouldn’t have to be eviscerated as much as most books that get made into movies would.

Comment #99: Lymis  on  10/27  at  06:10 PM

I took my mom to see Whip It a while after it opened. There were exactly two other people in the theater, both male.

And, indeed, it was very good. I’ve seen other movies with pretty much the same plot, but it was done well.

Comment #100: Doug S.  on  10/27  at  06:16 PM

<i?“As written, all the characters in Alien were male, and during the pitch, the writers said any of the characters could be women if necessary. It’s why she didn’t get a first name until the second movie”</i>

I did not know that, I thought the no first name thing was to highlight the “de-personalized corpotate drone” sub-plot, because I thought it was wierd that people who dont just work together but are stuck together on a spaceship for months at a time wouldnt be on a first name basis

Comment #101: jefft452  on  10/27  at  08:40 PM

Ironic that you choose that character as the example of a strong woman, because the character was written as male.

“Aliens”, Lymis, not “Alien”.  The second movie.

Comment #102: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/27  at  09:22 PM

One the genres in recent years that has been more respectful to women is scifi. Amanda Tapping in the Star Gate SG1 series was smart, resourceful, and a great leader. She continues in that vein as Helen Magnus, in the series Sanctuary. I am a great admirer of her talent.

Josh Whedon is a writer/producer who promotes a positive image of strong, resourceful women. Buffy in Buffy the Vampire Slayer was a young woman who came into her own through some very trying circumstances (vampires!). The women of Firefly were all complex, strong characters who thought for themselves. And in his new series, Dollhouse, Whedon has in Echo a woman who, starting from a position of total anonymity and subservience grandually takes control of her own life and works to free others.

And of course, there’s Battlestar Galactica, where all the characters are complex and flawed, but equally and without a sexist patina.

Nor should we forget Ripley from the Alien series, who has more guts than the men around her, who will not give in or give up against whatever odds.

Comment #103: Jim Palmer  on  11/01  at  05:51 PM
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