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Next entry: Wingnuts long for a nuclear holocaust Previous entry: 2012 Is Going To Be Fun, And Not Just Because Of The Mayan Apocalypse

How evangelical fantasists lead the way into turning politics into a circus sideshow

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After reading all the posts about it at Double X, and also Jesse’s post from this morning, I went ahead and read all 16 pages of Todd Purdum’s Vanity Fair profile of Sarah PalinJesse’s right about the thick layer of bullshit piled onto the piece, and I’m glad he alerted me to the fact that Palin isn’t the first politician that Purdum has diagnosed from afar as a narcissist.  (I thought having a giant ego was a mandated part of being a politician, and let’s face it, McCain’s huge ego is also what drove him to pick Palin in the first place.)  This is too bad, because in focusing all his energies into showing us how fucked-up Palin is, Purdum misses the larger story, which is that politicians like her are inevitable as long as the Republicans continue to rely on the growing fundamentalist community to cough up the votes required to keep them in office.  Because it’s not just Palin.  The Mark Sanford situation (and Larry Craig and David Vitter) shows that when you lay down with the Christian nutters, you wake up in a swirl of fantastical bullshit, corruption, and sordid sexual drama.

The right wing evangelical community has been perceived as a godsend by the more staid Republican punditry for a long time.  It’s easy to see them as a dream constituency for Republicans, since they’re motivated strictly by having their egotistical belief that they’re the Real America stroked, and don’t really care very much about any policies.  They’re “fiscal conservatives” by default, because they’re easy to motivate by the idea that Not Real America is a bunch of welfare cheats and losers who don’t deserve their piece of the pie.  But what really gets them going is anything where they get to write their “values”—-i.e. a bunch of religious dogma to mark their tribal identity—-into law. The purpose of abstinence-only, abortion bans, school prayer, faith-based funding, creationism, etc. seems to be less about creating actual changes to people’s behavior so much as establishing that they’re the only Real Americans, and our laws reflect their tribal dominance over the competing tribe of secular humanists (who don’t generally think of themselves as a tribe fighting for cultural dominance, though that’s changing under an onslaught of evangelical abuse).  Not that they don’t want to see these actual changes, but as the Palin situation shows, particularly with the Bristol Palin baby situation, what you do is fundamentally less important than what you say.  What outsiders perceive as hypocrisy—-okay, well, it really is hypocrisy—-is experienced differently on the inside.  I think it has a lot to do with the fantasist elements of evangelical Christianity, the deliberate breakdown between reality and fantasy.  A lot of churches practice demon exorcism and speaking in tongues, and observers are confused by how participants both believe and don’t believe in what they’re doing all at once.  (Speaking in tongues is supposed to be a channeling of the Holy Spirit; however, you’re instructed to practice it so that you can perform it better.  Just one example.) 


I find this space between belief and not-belief to be an interesting thing, and it crops up more with adolescents than anyone else.  You’ve probably been there—-it’s not like suspending your disbelief at all.  It’s having the experience of believing something while functioning as if you don’t believe it.  When teenagers tell each other ghost stories, they are in this space.  A lot of urban legends rely on people entering into this space, which is why urban legends proliferate in evangelical circles.  Living in this space is encouraged in these circles, which is dangerous, because it instills a disrespect for the truth and it encourages a lot of drama and bullshit.  To make things worse, the people that are drawn to evangelical churches in the first place are often a mess to begin with, which is why they crave the structure.  But the community has come to terms with the idea that having a bunch of rules doesn’t imply that people follow them. If anything, the gap between rules and behavior is exciting, because it means non-stop drama.  The Bristol Palin situation is pretty typical, actually—-impossible standards are set, people don’t even try to meet them, there’s a cycle of guilt and recrimination, but the standards are never questioned, in no small part because that would deprive everyone of the cycle of excitement and guilt.  Take abstinence, for instance.  It’s a big deal for the evangelical community, and getting your chastity ring is a big rite of passage.  Evangelical teenagers, it turns out, also have sex at younger ages than pretty much any other group of kids.  Is this hypocrisy, or just a natural outgrowth from living in a space where reality, statement, and fantasy are collapsed into each other, and high emotion and drama matter more than boring things like truth?

We’re getting another taste of it with Mark Sanford, I’m beginning to see.  I theorized early that maybe he flipped out because he’s never been in love before, but now he admits that he’s been bouncing around and having heavy duty flirtations with a bunch of women.  Sex is just more fun if it’s sinful. 

As much as I like to make fun of Ross Douthat for his incoherence, I think this sort of thing is what he was thinking of when he suggested there’s a red state culture of debauchery that obviously incites his sexual imagination.  Douthat isn’t alone in the habit of openly fantasizing about how the Bible-thumping rednecks have more fun, because they’re too wrapped up in the cult of masculinity and Jeebus to think of things like using condoms.  But the roller coaster ride thing isn’t actually more fun or even necessarily more exciting.  (It may even be less—-the same research that shows that evangelical teenagers have sex younger also shows they’re weirdly prudish about it, and avoid things like oral sex.)  Like I pointed out, every screws, cheating is rampant, people have all sorts of adventures and dramas.  It’s just a matter of how much you’re willing to take basic responsibility and not be a big ol’ weeping drama queen about it, i.e. who uses condoms and divorces amicably instead of going through huge public dramas and making statements like, “I’m trying to fall back in love with my wife.” 

You can get them to vote for you, and that’s the appeal.  The fantasist element of the Christian right means that they like to vote for statements, not realities.  The “pro-life” movement is an interesting example, because a lot of the rank and file doesn’t understand that government-enforced laws are dramatically different things than their stated-but-not-observed “values”.  It’s against god’s law to get an abortion, but you can do it and pay your dues by carrying on about how sad you are over it.  I don’t think that they think much past “and make everyone have to agree we’re right” when voting these ideas into law, which is why, when asked, “How much time should a woman do if caught aborting?”, they go stupid, because they didn’t really think about it that way.  They were too busy weeping dramatically over the touching story of a woman like Sarah Palin who bravely went ahead with that pregnancy.

Sarah Palin, right down to her politics-by-vendetta mentality, is exactly what the Republicans signed up for when they decided to go with Christian right identity politics.  She is pressed right out of Ross Douthat and David Brooks’ fantasies (some sexual, some not) of the simple, self-righteous, exciting red state America.  Her good looks are a huge part of this, whether you like it or not, because the hard right has always had an obsessive desire with forefronting this ideal of womanhood—-always white—-that they feel proves something about their masculinity, that “their” women are hot, fertile, entertaining, but still submissive.  Just like Mike Huckabee and other right wingers from the bowels of the fundamentalist church, she’s got the perfect mix of faux folksiness and a confessional air about her.  Her relationship to reality is hazy.  And all this is increasingly what the evangelical base will be demanding in return for their loyalty to the Republican Party.  But as the Palin example shows, if you bring on evangelicals for their pluses as a base, you sign up for the minuses, with erratic behavior at the top.  Or, as we see in Mark Sanford’s case, the assumption that you can do whatever you want as long as you confess it and make a big show out of how sorry you supposedly are, which is fun in church but in politics just keeps the story from going away.  And while the Democrats certainly have played their part in the tabloidization of politics, we’re never even going to come close to competing in the heavyweight league with people who think that they cheat and lie because demons sneak in their ears while they’re watching music videos. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 02:23 PM • (58) Comments

The Prodigal Son myth, no ?

Sinful people who are “redeemed” by the tribe are more exciting because they are a testimony to the tribe’s “power”.

Great catch!

Comment #1: lostmypassword  on  07/01  at  02:50 PM

Not that they don’t want to see these actual changes, but as the Palin situation shows, particularly with the Bristol Palin baby situation, what you do is fundamentally less important than what you say.

That does seem to be how it goes, doesn’t it?  It’s like they took the old “deeds vs. faith” debate and applied it to politics, with the GOP proclaiming “by faith alone are we saved!”

Which, of course, makes their actual deeds more, um, interesting.

Comment #2: damnedyankee  on  07/01  at  02:51 PM

You know, I’m beginning to think the modern day GOP is nuts enough to nominate her, and we will get a re-run of 1964.

Her only real competitor is Huckabee. Romney is phony and a Mormon, Jeb’s brother is George W., and the rest of the field is imploding.

Comment #3: Ben D.  on  07/01  at  02:52 PM

Reminds me of a joke.  It’s a Mormon joke (Utah thing, I hope it translates)

St. Pete is giving a tour of heaven to a bunch of new arrivals.  After trapsing around for a while they come to a huge ediface, big tall grey walls.  There’s a bunch of signs that say “QUIET” and “PLEASE LOWER YOUR VOICES,” etc.

One of the women says to St. Pete:  “Why do we have to whisper?  What’s that place?”
St. Pete says, “Ssssh, quiet.  The Mormons are in there and they think they’re the only ones here.”

So yes, their kingdom is shrinking but that’s okay because it gives them an ever more heightened sense of persecution which they enjoy.  All wingnuts are masochists.  The smaller the band of True Believers v. the mass of Heathan Unbelievers the more rightous and stalwart they feel in comparison.

The problem with embracing evangelical wingnutism as a “base” is that there is no understanding that elections are won by majorities.  The idea of broadening their message’s appeal is–quite literally–anathema.  But, as you sow….

Comment #4: Magis  on  07/01  at  02:56 PM

Perhaps - just perhaps - the “staid punditry” mentioned above is finally discovering that (with irony intended) they’ve made a devil’s bargain by co-opting the fundamentalist Right.  Including that faction within their ranks strengthened them - but now has taken over the Party…witnessing John McCain swallow some amount of bile when campaigning alongside Palin was amusing but tragic.

Here I go Godwining again*, but I can’t help being reminded of the traditional German monarchists and conservatives who backed Hitler in 1933 thinking that he and his movement could be co-opted into serving their limited Nationalist aims…only to find themselves displaced and disgraced by 1944.

Mind you, I’m not drawing an exact parallelism between the fundamentalist Right and National Socialism, but rather how slippery it can be for a “mainstream” political organization to try to include a faction to whom ideological purity is their founding and most important principle.  In the end the mainstream becomes co-opted by the “extremists,” not the other way around.

* I can’t help it.  8 years of postgraduate education in Modern German History will do that to someone.

Comment #5: tannenburg  on  07/01  at  02:57 PM

Excellent assessment of the right’s adolescent need for institutional validation and the constant dramas of transgression and discovery, Amanda.

Comment #6: latts  on  07/01  at  02:57 PM

Maybe if all the liberals hadn’t been out there abortin’ and homosexin’, Mark Sanford would have a happy marriage.

After all, if you actually believe that the very existence of the gays and the feminists is behind natural disasters and terrorism, it’s not much of a leap to think that the personal failings of your beloved leaders are due to all the sins of “Not Real America.”

And that’s why the religious masses can continue to oppose comprehensive sex ed and abortion, even when we all know for a fact that contraception protects people and abortion saves lives. While I think there are a good many genuinely “evil” conservatives, I don’t think the average Jesus-lovin’ Joe is necessarily a bad guy - but this is how his thinking goes: “If abortion, homosexuality, and pre-marital sex would just stop, God would love the world, and he’d make everything better.” Even after effectively PROVING that abstinence education doesn’t work and a lack of abortion services will result in dead women, we can’t reach a consensus here, because they can explain it away by convincing themselves that the reason for the failure is “sin in the world,” not their own awful policies. So they push even harder, because if their policies aren’t working yet, it’s because they haven’t pleased God enough.

The disconnect is dangerous.

Comment #7: Katie Joy  on  07/01  at  03:01 PM

A lot of urban legends rely on people entering into this space, which is why urban legends proliferate in evangelical circles.

this is an interesting point, worth developing further…

Comment #8: Woodrowfan  on  07/01  at  03:02 PM

You’re asking for a biographical piece in VF to not be celebrity voyeurism?

That said, you’re absolutely right about right-wing Christians being ideal bedfellows for the otherwise oligarchic (and thus innately elitist) Republican party. The only problem with them is their insistence on at least the appearance of occasional progress on some of their hot-button issues. But that’s a small price to pay for their absolute fealty. If the Republicans somehow manage to bring Palin to heel like they did GWB, she’d do even better than him at cementing the relationship and providing the reliable votes while providing cover for their actual program (which is entirely secular and has to do with the usual moneyed interests).

Comment #9: weirdnoise  on  07/01  at  03:06 PM

“people who think that they cheat and lie because demons sneak in their ears while they’re watching music videos”

I was all geared up to write something thoughtful until I got to that last line & now I can’t stop laughing.

Comment #10: Mark  on  07/01  at  03:13 PM

Nice piece. Just one slight quibble (honestly, not even that):

As much as I like to make fun of Ross Douthat for his incoherence, I think this sort of thing is what he was thinking of when he suggested there’s a red state culture of debauchery that obviously incites his sexual imagination.  Douthat isn’t alone in the habit of openly fantasizing about how the Bible-thumping rednecks have more fun, because they’re too wrapped up in the cult of masculinity and Jeebus to think of things like using condoms.

The only reason that Douthat and Brooksie have this fantasy is because they’re both Coastal Elites who’ve denied themselves the opportunities to engage in the alternative “debaucheries” afforded to them by their own culture—Douthat because he was a religious nut from an early age, Brooks because of his Straussian bargain to convince selfish Boomers that they’re perfectly justified in abandoning the progressivism of their youth, and both because their continued livelihoods depend on the marketing hook of affluent and educated Coastal Elites who didn’t consider Prince Bush an embarrassment.

The Know-Nothings love Palin (and Bush) in large part because, apart from being a high earner and being willing to kiss the arse of any big corporation that demands it*, she isn’t what Douthat and Brooks are: educated, effete seeming, urban-dwelling, careful with their words (and goodness knows they have to be!), drama-averse, willing to justify how their everyday actions jibe with their publicly professed religious convictions, and unable to convey even phony crowd-pleasing charm.

Xtian fantasist Know-Nothings want to see an idealised and larger-than-life reflection of themselves: proudly ignorant, “down to earth/keepin’ it real”, exurban- and rural-dwelling, free and easy with their words, being the heroes of their own mundane soap operas, balancing a 6.5 days of sins against Jesus (and Jeebus) against half a day of blaming it on literal demons and receiving automatic redemption. Palin more than satisfies that demand, and throws it into a package that’s attractive on da telebision.

Douthat and Brooks will never be able to compete with that, and ultimately neither will the neoCons or the moneyCons. Which is why the party is in the state it is.

[* the cornerstones of the GOP establishment.]

Comment #11: Gracchus.  on  07/01  at  03:18 PM

A lot of urban legends rely on people entering into this space, which is why urban legends proliferate in evangelical circles.

this is an interesting point, worth developing further…

It’s also why accusations out of those circles basically become urban legends as well. Fox News and the like report news slanted off the truth in hopes that it gains traction as urban legend. Once it’s an urban legend, corrections and accurate reporting on the topic have much less a chance of succeeding.

Comment #12: hp  on  07/01  at  03:21 PM

This all reminds me of the way people in my last factory job (and that was a while ago) dealt with the employer’s drug testing program.  All my co-workers had advice on how to beat the drug test (shit, they were all smoking dope and drinking beer, after all), but if you suggested that the drug test was stupid or invasive to begin with, they’d accuse you of being in favor of drugs and potsmoking.

Seriously.  And it caused them absolutely no cognitive dissonance whatsoever.

It was hard to get my head around that.  But Amanda’s right—it was important for them to say that drinking and smoking dope is bad, even though a lot of them were beer-drinking dope smokers (and probably had spent most of their time in high school shop making bongs) and had no intention of changing their ways.

Comment #13: nolo  on  07/01  at  03:22 PM

You can’t declare yourself an exclusive group of God’s Chosen People and then lament that the majority of people don’t vote for your candidates.

Comment #14: Ms Kate  on  07/01  at  03:26 PM

As long as there’s a stigma associated with seeking psychiatric help when your life is a mess (not to mention the prohibitive cost), churches will continue to prey on people whose lives need sorting out as the low-cost, socially-acceptable alternative to getting your life back in order.

Comment #15: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/01  at  03:26 PM

I think the godsquadders started watching soap operas sometime in the 1980s and now they think the real life world is and should be like that.

Palin would be exhibit A.

Comment #16: Ms Kate  on  07/01  at  03:27 PM

Nolo, I think that some of their lack of dissonance came from the typical belief that there is a better life out there and that it is available to me when I chose to change my ways.

There is an implicit, yet false sense of control in that.

Comment #17: Ms Kate  on  07/01  at  03:31 PM

I think the godsquadders started watching soap operas sometime in the 1980s and now they think the real life world is and should be like that.

You got it. If Tom Selleck somehow lost an eye and had to wear a patch, he’d be a shoo-in for President with them as long as he publicly embraced Jeebus.

Sad thing is, their real-life worlds are usually as provincial and stifling and soul-destroying as the dreadful fictional towns (tellingly, often company towns) where those soap operas are usually set.

Comment #18: Gracchus.  on  07/01  at  03:43 PM

I 100% agree, Gracchus, and would add that they engage that fantasy because they’re also rationalizing the alliance.  They want to believe that they’re not exploiting evangelicals, but that they’re soul mates.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/01  at  03:48 PM

A few loosely related thoughts:

- Paul Krugman waded into these same waters last week:

From their point of view the cause, the need to police what people do in bed, is, by definition, right, because it’s literally God-given. So the fact that some of those trying to police what other people do in bed are themselves doing nasty things does not reflect on the cause itself — on the contrary, it shows just how necessary more bed-snooping is.

- Early in the post, Amanda, you say:

Not that they don’t want to see these actual changes, but as the Palin situation shows, particularly with the Bristol Palin baby situation, what you do is fundamentally less important than what you say.

Unfortunately, if we accept presidential approval rating as an accurate gague, it appears we can say the same thing about President Obama.  The cult of “change” and “bipartisanship” is trumping the acutal work of making us a better nation.

- It may be that part of this “hypocrisy” is inevitable.  The closing paragraph of this Foreign Policy piece about the counterrevolutionaries of 1979 contains the following:

Yet if there’s one thing that the legacy of 1979 teaches us, it’s that people are always ready to embrace a compelling vision of the future—particularly when it’s cast as a moral crusade against the dark forces conspiring against traditional sources of identity, against the “natural order” of things.

I have to post this right now, so that last point probably isn’t as clear as it could be; basically, visions of perfection always get dashed on the rocks of reality, but that’s not what kills them.

Comment #20: NY Expat  on  07/01  at  03:55 PM

NY Expat—I can’t really agree with that.  Obama’s still way way above the lines established by Bush 43 (or 41, for that matter).  He’s done a lot of things I think are bad, but the stimulus package was good law, as was Lily Ledbetter and his handling of our interests and ideals with respect to Iran and Honduras. 

Ask me again after health care; if he blows that one, then yeah.  But if he doesn’t, then he’ll be a successful President with some bad foulups, and we should keep pushing him to be better.

Comment #21: Punditus Maximus  on  07/01  at  04:01 PM

I 100% agree, Gracchus, and would add that they engage that fantasy because they’re also rationalizing the alliance.

Very true—despite their claims to education and sophistication, pundits like Brooksie and Douthat are all about rationalising the irrational. And unlike their masters, they don’t have the extreme power and wealth that allows a Dick Cheney to flip the Xtian fantasists the bird, so they have to settle for their bogus nostalgie de la boue fantasies about the Know-Nothings instead.

Comment #22: Gracchus.  on  07/01  at  04:12 PM

Here ya go, jumpinjim:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/11/03/081103fa_fact_talbot?currentPage=all

Since you’re either too stupid of lazy to spend the two minutes it took too Google this up, the money graf (with quants) is as follows:

A handful of social scientists and family-law scholars have recently begun looking closely at this split. Last year, Mark Regnerus, a sociologist at the University of Texas at Austin, published a startling book called “Forbidden Fruit: Sex and Religion in the Lives of American Teenagers,” and he is working on a follow-up that includes a section titled “Red Sex, Blue Sex.” His findings are drawn from a national survey that Regnerus and his colleagues conducted of some thirty-four hundred thirteen-to-seventeen-year-olds, and from a comprehensive government study of adolescent health known as Add Health. Regnerus argues that religion is a good indicator of attitudes toward sex, but a poor one of sexual behavior, and that this gap is especially wide among teen-agers who identify themselves as evangelical. The vast majority of white evangelical adolescents—seventy-four per cent—say that they believe in abstaining from sex before marriage. (Only half of mainline Protestants, and a quarter of Jews, say that they believe in abstinence.) Moreover, among the major religious groups, evangelical virgins are the least likely to anticipate that sex will be pleasurable, and the most likely to believe that having sex will cause their partners to lose respect for them. (Jews most often cite pleasure as a reason to have sex, and say that an unplanned pregnancy would be an embarrassment.) But, according to Add Health data, evangelical teen-agers are more sexually active than Mormons, mainline Protestants, and Jews. On average, white evangelical Protestants make their “sexual début”—to use the festive term of social-science researchers—shortly after turning sixteen. Among major religious groups, only black Protestants begin having sex earlier.

Now before you go pointing out that the New Yorker is an evil librul rag, keep in mind that Regnurus also has socially conservative views on marriage.

Comment #23: Gracchus.  on  07/01  at  04:22 PM

I think your take that evangelicals vote for statements and not realities goes a long way toward explaining the (inexplicable to me) popularity of politicians like Sarah Palin and Mike Huckabee.  Here in Maricopa County, AZ we have Sheriff Joe Arpaio.  The man is an ignorant, hateful, bigoted, buffoon yet he enjoys enormous popularity and gets reelected by large margins (we’ve got a lot of 30%ers here).  He says he’s ‘tough on crime’ (meaning he keeps the brown people down) and that’s all they need to know.

Comment #24: DonnaDiva  on  07/01  at  04:36 PM

I should elaborate further by stating that while Arpaio really does make life miserable for anyone who looks remotely Hispanic here, he does not actually do much to make a dent in the crime rate.  Phoenix has tens of thousands of unserved felony warrants, many of them violent criminals.  It’s the Sheriff’s main job to go after them but Sheriff Joe has more important things to do.

Comment #25: DonnaDiva  on  07/01  at  04:42 PM

Teen pregnancy is the feature, not the bug, of the fundie lifestyle. These girls are raised to believe that their highest purpose is to be a mother, to bring babies into the world unlike those sluts out there getting abortions, and that the root of evil in society is because women went to college and got jobs and gave up their “nature” to be mothers and wives. It’s not necessarily limited to Quiverfull—this notion that a woman is nothing if she isn’t a mother is really pervasive in all evangelical communities.

I don’t think teen pregnancies are entirely accidental in these populations. If a girl is pretty much told she has no future outside of motherhood and wifehood, and in fact being a wife and a mother is her “highest purpose” then why wait? They get lots of attention during the pregnancy, even if she gets to be the Village Slut for a little while all she has to do is make peeps that she might consider an abortion and then she’ll get so much positive attention and praise so long as she keeps the baby that it works out the best for her. Hell, it might be the most attention and praise she gets in her life.

Comment #26: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/01  at  04:51 PM

Here are the actual figures, copied over from Forbidden Fruit by Regnurus (via Google Books):

Mean Age at Sexual Debut (Retrospective)
by Religiosity Measures, Wave III
————————————————

Religious Tradition
Evangelical Protestant…..........16.3
Mainline Protestant….............16.7
Black Protestant…................15.9
Catholic…........................16.7
Jewish…..........................17.5
Mormon (LDS).......................18.0
Other religion…..................16.6
No religion….....................15.9

Church Attendance
Weekly…..........................16.9
Once a month but less than Weekly..16.3
Less than once a month…..........16.3
Never…...........................16.0

Importance of Religion
Very important…..................16.7
Fairly important…................16.4
Fairly unimportant…..............16.2
Not important at all…............16.0

Comment #27: Gracchus.  on  07/01  at  04:52 PM

jumpinjim, compared to atheist, Catholic, Jewish, and mainline Protestant groups.  As in, every other group of kids. 

The man who wrote that book is an evangelical Christian, by the way, but his research is sound.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/01  at  04:56 PM

And of course a scattering of non-Christian, non-atheist kids, but unfortunately that group is still too small to draw conclusions from.  The interesting thing is that even kids who have no moral or religious qualms about adolescent sex tend to delay sex, often much later than other kids.  It’s hard to say why, but one reason might be that because they’re more educated about sex and less hung up on it, they make a conscious choice to have sex when they’re ready instead of just giving in when the urge takes them, which is what happens when you’re ignorant and being held to inhuman standards.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/01  at  04:58 PM

From their point of view the cause, the need to police what people do in bed, is, by definition, right, because it’s literally God-given. So the fact that some of those trying to police what other people do in bed are themselves doing nasty things does not reflect on the cause itself — on the contrary, it shows just how necessary more bed-snooping is.

I can’t remember who it was now, but way way back when John Ensign’s affair became news (remember way back then?) some cable-TV rent-a-wingnut said that just because Ensign didn’t live up to his rhetoric didn’t mean that there was anything wrong with continuing to spout it constantly.

Comment #30: RickMassimo  on  07/01  at  05:01 PM

Perhaps we need to start an urban rumour about atheistic liberals teaching their kids how to have sex with innocent fundie teens.  Possibly by exploiting NLP as a boogyman.

Comment #31: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/01  at  05:02 PM

And you know, I don’t even half mind that people have these silly values they pretty much don’t even want to live up to.  A lot of people have values they can’t live up to.  It’s that they want to write them into law and maximize the horrible fallout when people’s behavior differs from their stated values.  It’s the part where they want people to get STDs, for instance, where I balk.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/01  at  05:06 PM

It’s that they want to write them into law and maximize the horrible fallout when people’s behavior differs from their stated values.

Not when just anyone’s behavior falls short of their own stated values; when non-fundamentalists’ behaviors fall short of fundamentalists’ stated values.

Mark Sanford, Sarah Palin, Bristol Palin, John Ensign - none of these people should pay any price whatsoever. Because they’re on the team.

Comment #33: RickMassimo  on  07/01  at  05:18 PM

I’m glad not to see any “I"m a feminist and I’m outraged! at this ‘sexist’ attack on Sarah Palin” in this piece.

the right has many stupid allies on the left, who love to debase themselves by slavishly denouncing the “sexism” aimed at Palin, and this article has already generated enough of that.

Comment #34: Lady Vader  on  07/01  at  05:19 PM

What a lot of other commenters have said. It’s the whole faith v. Works thing applied to politics and culture.

I’m a person who thinks that the community aspects of religion are worthwhile (but not unique), however, people who put ideology over actions and results…it’s a moral dead-end and we need to recognize it as such.

Comment #35: Karmakin  on  07/01  at  05:27 PM

The purpose of abstinence-only, abortion bans, school prayer, faith-based funding, creationism, etc. seems to be less about creating actual changes to people’s behavior so much as establishing that they’re the only Real Americans, and our laws reflect their tribal dominance

This ties in nicely with the theme of “Common Ground” and why it doesn’t work.  In a debate over morals, liberals have the tendency to assume that the goal is to arrive at a set of moral rules or principles that we can all comfortably live with.  That may be true for liberals but certainly is not true for religious authoritarians.

The thing about religious authoritarian morality is that you aren’t supposed to live comfortably within its confines.  You aren’t even really supposed to live within its confines at all - you’re meant to break the rules, so the resulting guilt and fear of discovery can be used as a lever against you to make you submit to authority and subsume your individual identity into that of the group.

The evidence for this lies in its plasticity and arbitrary nature.  If you’re comfortable living with a ban on homosexuality, we can always ban extramarital sex.  If that doesn’t bother you, we’ll ban all sex other than plain vanilla missionary intercourse.  Still OK?  We can ban dancing, or loud music, or pork, or meat on Fridays, or wearing blended fabrics, etc., etc.

There’s no limit because we’ve already got you to buy into the idea that morality is something handed down arbitrarily by an authority figure.  The reason sex is such a popular target for such ridiculous restrictions is precisely because it’s so personal.  Once you buy into the idea that someone else gets to make up essentially arbitrary rules for the most intimate matters of your life, you’ll accept anything you’re told.

That’s why efforts to compromise or seek common ground with religious authoritarians are doomed to failure.  No matter what level of restriction you’re comfortable with, they can (and will) always move the bar until you’re no longer comfortable.  Their only true core moral value is subjugation.  You either surrender or you don’t; there is no middle ground.

Comment #36: DaveL  on  07/01  at  05:51 PM

just because Ensign didn’t live up to his rhetoric didn’t mean that there was anything wrong with continuing to spout it constantly.

Isn’t that the basis of this infamous quote?

      L’hypocrisie est un hommage que le vice rend à la vertu.
                     
                        Hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue.
                     
                        Maxim 218.

And then there’s this:

I find it interesting that liberals always demand that conservatives live up to the standards the liberals themselves have discarded.

Yes, because the conservatives are in favor of having their standards enforced on everyone else, so it’s a matter of living up to the standards one sets for ones self.

Liberals are ‘hypocritical’ for pointing out when conservatives don’t live by the bromines they prescribe for everyone else in the country.

Comment #37: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/01  at  05:54 PM

I said it on another thread as it was dying, but it’s apropos here:

Fundie-evangelicals are *Manicheans*, radical dualists. Life is a matter of “Haloes-n-Horns.” You publicly endorse the Halo side of things—uptight, repressive restrictions, impossible absolutist morality. But other times, behind covers, you celebrate the Horny dimension, in which one abandons of all moral and ethical restraint.

Real, honest, red-blooded heartland Americans are supposed to swing wildly between incompatible and ridiculous ethical extremes. (Think of Elvis, king of rock *and* gospel artist… better, the omnisexual Rev. Little Richard, or Al Green).

Rational people, even those who are right of center, consider this to be insane, and it is, and it’s killing us as a country. We call their behavior hypocritical. In their dualistic universe, it’s just what folks—real honest human beings—do.

Comment #38: wapsie  on  07/01  at  05:57 PM

And of course a scattering of non-Christian, non-atheist kids, but unfortunately that group is still too small to draw conclusions from.  The interesting thing is that even kids who have no moral or religious qualms about adolescent sex tend to delay sex, often much later than other kids.  It’s hard to say why, but one reason might be that because they’re more educated about sex and less hung up on it, they make a conscious choice to have sex when they’re ready instead of just giving in when the urge takes them, which is what happens when you’re ignorant and being held to inhuman standards.

Having grown up with some who fall into the overly religious, it’s part and parcel of the view of sin and temptation.

Ordinary humans do not avoid sin and temptation—they simply feel guilty about them afterwards.

Comment #39: hp  on  07/01  at  06:02 PM

The other aspect of these people that needs to be remembered is how credulous they are; they are absolute bunnies.  They really really can’t tell the difference between an honest god-fearing small town pastor and a TV shill preacher.  As matter of fact they like bright shiny things like megachurches and become their natural prey.  As Amanda has often pointed out, irony escapes them.  They have no bullshit detectors whatsoever.


So one of these TV revs is caught with a hooker, goes on the air and cries and asks for forgiveness; they cry with him and rejoice that Rev. Asshole has repented and start sending him their social security money again so he can keep making the payments on his friggin’ Gulfstream.  It is truly astounding.

Comment #40: Magis  on  07/01  at  06:23 PM

A comment from under Maureen Dowd’s column on Sanford this week:  The guy ranted on and on about how liberals and atheists are ruining the country, blah blah blah and ended with, “At least Mark Sanford had values, even if he didn’t live up to them”.

??????

Comment #41: BadKitty  on  07/01  at  06:39 PM

hp, speaking as a former Unitarian kid who was made to put a lot of condoms on a lot of bananas in middle school Unitarian Sunday School (and the tasteful, clinical slides - let us not even talk about the tasteful slides, oh god) I think there’s a lot to be said for the deterrent power of demystification. If you’re already pretty familiar with what’s going on with the sex thing, and have been made to understand the fact that pretty much everybody has it, not just interesting pretty people ages 17 - 25 on special occasions but everyone pretty much all life long - then there’s a whole lot of that adolescent curiosity cut out from under you.

Comment #42: purpleshoes  on  07/01  at  07:19 PM

hp, speaking as a former Unitarian kid who was made to put a lot of condoms on a lot of bananas in middle school Unitarian Sunday School

And that works too - have you ever met a Unitarian with a case of sexually tramsitted fruit fly?

Comment #43: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/01  at  07:28 PM

The guy ranted on and on about how liberals and atheists are ruining the country, blah blah blah and ended with, “At least Mark Sanford had values, even if he didn’t live up to them”.

IIRC that’s exactly what Ann Coulter said about Rush Limbaugh’s illegal drug use.

Her good looks are a huge part of this, whether you like it or not, because the hard right has always had an obsessive desire with forefronting this ideal of womanhood—-always white—-that they feel proves something about their masculinity, that “their” women are hot, fertile, entertaining, but still submissive.

I have been reading about the Myah Walker case in New Brunswick (Baby Faith Hope, the anencephalic child who “miraculously” lived for a few months after birth) and thinking that she captured the imaginations of fundie North America because, among other things, she’s young, blonde, pretty, appears to be easily manipulated, and has a very tenuous grip on reality.  I recall a comment on one article declaring her to be everything a woman should be.

Comment #44: killjoy  on  07/01  at  07:28 PM

Her good looks are a huge part of this…

I want to vomit everytime I hear this. On one hand because it’s probably one of the main reasons she GOT the VP nod in the first place (according to gossip) but also because she just IS NOT very attractive. Maybe if you see her out of the corner of your eye but if you look closer you can see the hollow eyes, the strange grimaces and put on expressions. She is just really creepy looking.
I just can’t see someone like her as “hot” in any way. Ever.

Comment #45: Danica Lefse Queen  on  07/01  at  07:33 PM

I just can’t see someone like her as “hot” in any way. Ever.

She’s highly coiffed and thin, which is Republican shorthand for “hot”.  See also: Ann Coulter.

Comment #46: killjoy  on  07/01  at  07:36 PM

I just can’t see someone like her as “hot” in any way. Ever.

De gustibus non est disputandum.  Her looks could well float my boat if they weren’t spoiled by the fingernails-on-blackboard personality underneath.

Comment #47: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/01  at  08:29 PM

Danica, speaking of grimaces, here is a incredible pic from the vp piece:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2009/08/sarah-palin200908?currentPage=4

And I think that you are both right and wrong, strangely enough.  Her face in repose, is very attractive.  And she has a nice body.  The problem is, and so many seem to miss this, she has been photographed with more fucked up looks on her face than anyone I have seen.  And I think you pinpoint that - her constant grimacing.  But what no one in the media ever says is what this is all about.  And what it’s all about is that this is one fucking nasty vengeful mean person.  That’s what she is. All of this bs on the talk shows tonight about how unprofessional and surprising it is that R operatives would keep trashing her leave this out.  Yeah, it’s unprofessional.  You know what?  They don’t care, that’s how much they fucking hate her. And they know her.  And I bet they have good reason to hate her that much.  If you read enough about her what comes through again and again is that she fucks every single person who has ever helped her over eventually.  So she’s not only vengeful to those who she feels have slighted her, but she actively fucks over people who have supported her the very second they are no longer of use to her.  It comes up time and time and time and time again, in every single aspect of her political past.

This woman is a piece of fucking shit.

Comment #48: Lady Vader  on  07/01  at  09:53 PM

I think hp may have something there, not so much with the guilt as with the supposed forgiveness. Conservative christianity is very much about the model of an abusive relationship: “I created you and gave you a bunch of rules to follow, and because I’m omniscient I knew when I did that that you would fail to follow the rules. But actually not following them is YOUR FAULT. Except now I forgive you. But don’t let it happen again. But I will still forgive you.”

Drama out the wazoo.

Comment #49: paul  on  07/01  at  10:11 PM

I just can’t see someone like her as “hot” in any way. Ever.

Um, dude. Tina Fey. Tina Fey is hot in every sense of the word.

Unless you’re talking about the mind behind the face as well (and even then, for far too many people, Palin’s mind is more than acceptable…)

Comment #50: gwangung  on  07/01  at  11:20 PM

Paul: my brain is kind of fried today, but having been on the inside of that culture with a rather cynical view of it (I don’t KNOW where I came up with the cynical view from, but I remember thinking that a lot about religion and sexuality’s relationship with religion was bullshit back around 2nd or 3rd grade, and never, ever being able to share that view until I hit college) it’s both the model of the abusive relationship, and the fact that you as a human are EXPECTED to sin.

Sex always resided at the level of sin that is irresistibly attractive and you must fight against that attraction with all your might. Until you’re married, and then it’s not a sin. But you know, if you really do fall to the temptation . . . well, that’s why it’s defined as irresistibly attractive. Because it is irresistible for us mere humans, and we all sin.

And that drives the excuse to give into the urge. Me, who decided it wasn’t a sin and all the sin-stuff was bullshit . . . I lasted into my twenties as a virgin. None the girls I knew who bought into all that lasted past age 16. And oh my god, the drama, the regret, the way they reacted to the “born-again virgin” bullshit . . . for two weeks, and then they had sex again.

Comment #51: hp  on  07/01  at  11:49 PM

The thing about religious authoritarian morality is that you aren’t supposed to live comfortably within its confines.  You aren’t even really supposed to live within its confines at all - you’re meant to break the rules, so the resulting guilt and fear of discovery can be used as a lever against you to make you submit to authority and subsume your individual identity into that of the group.
...

There’s no limit because we’ve already got you to buy into the idea that morality is something handed down arbitrarily by an authority figure. ....

Their only true core moral value is subjugation.  You either surrender or you don’t; there is no middle ground.
DaveL on 07/01 at 12:51 PM

All of this!

This is what I mean by a “dominator society.”

My quibble with the consensus of this thread is the notion that this kind of thinking is being attributed to a bunch of “others,” assumed to be a splinter that has only recently begun to fester. Thus:

I think the godsquadders started watching soap operas sometime in the 1980s and now they think the real life world is and should be like that.

Palin would be exhibit A.
Ms Kate on 07/01 at 10:27 AM

No, I think the soap operas actually originated as a genre—way back before television, in radio form—because this aspect of our culture was historically dominant and deeply ingrained. It was the default, or assumed to be for the masses anyway.

From the point of view of a dominator society, we are the recent, festering splinter.

Now I am not saying we are some kind of hypocritical mirror image, nor that everyone before say 1960 was slavishly, mindlessly, in thrall to this drama doublethink. On the contrary—what makes us progressives, and also deeply rooted in a tradition that I think actually is more ancient than the quite ancient dominator mentality, is that as we keep pointing out, from a logical point of view the dominator mentality makes no sense whatsoever and never has—unless you are willing to cynically step outside the system completely and see it for what it is, a brutal mechanism to create and perpetuate a brutal society. One that was invented near, but I think after, human beings began creating civilization.

From the dominator point of view, its opposition exists because of the Devil, and the Devil exists because God Loves Drama. One of its strengths is that opposition will indeed always exist, because from a humane point of view the dominator society is the Devil. People will always be in rebellion, always have been—hence the Drama.

Comment #52: Mark Foxwell  on  07/02  at  09:28 AM

No, I think the soap operas actually originated as a genre—way back before television, in radio form—because this aspect of our culture was historically dominant and deeply ingrained. It was the default, or assumed to be for the masses anyway.

But Mark, the fundnuts that I knew growing up were not allowed to watch them until fairly recently.  Their churches condemned them as sinful. Look back at the furor around Peyton Place. That’s why I suspect that, while soap operas were there all along, the wingnutteria discovered them in the 1980s.

Comment #53: Ms Kate  on  07/02  at  10:39 AM

Woodrowfan: Have you seen Fred from Slactivist on that point?
http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2008/09/false-witnesses.html

“I can’t remember who it was now, but way way back when John Ensign’s affair became news (remember way back then?) some cable-TV rent-a-wingnut said that just because Ensign didn’t live up to his rhetoric didn’t mean that there was anything wrong with continuing to spout it constantly.”

This is why I’m a little shy of pointing out wingnut hypocrisy. It seems a bit like legitimizing their screwed up values.

The problem is not that they don’t practice what they preach. The problem is that they preach. (Actually that they try to turn their preachings into law, but that’s less catchy.)

And wtf with everyone acting like Ensign’s problem is that he had an affair? He had an affair with a staffer and then f’ing fired her!

Comment #54: witless chum  on  07/02  at  10:58 AM

And of course a scattering of non-Christian, non-atheist kids, but unfortunately that group is still too small to draw conclusions from.  The interesting thing is that even kids who have no moral or religious qualms about adolescent sex tend to delay sex, often much later than other kids.  It’s hard to say why, but one reason might be that because they’re more educated about sex and less hung up on it, they make a conscious choice to have sex when they’re ready instead of just giving in when the urge takes them, which is what happens when you’re ignorant and being held to inhuman standards.

Judging from my personal experience as an agnostic teen who had comprehensive sex ed, I would say this statement is probably true.

Comment #55: Entomologista  on  07/02  at  11:08 AM

It’s hard to say why, but one reason might be that because they’re more educated about sex and less hung up on it, they make a conscious choice to have sex when they’re ready instead of just giving in when the urge takes them, which is what happens when you’re ignorant and being held to inhuman standards.

Have to concur with Entomologista.  That was my experience as well.  Well, not that the sex ed we had was anything to write home about, but at least it was there.  And there was a decent inverse correlation between how long a kid went before their first sexual encounter and how hung up their parents and social circle (especially their church) were on sex.  Among the people I was growing up with it was considered pretty much a given that the Roman Catholics were going at it like rabbits long before those of us from liberal Protestant denominations.

Comment #56: KeithM  on  07/03  at  04:15 AM

(Speaking in tongues is supposed to be a channeling of the Holy Spirit; however, you’re instructed to practice it so that you can perform it better.  Just one example.)

The really interesting thing about speaking in tongues is how far the modern evangelicals are from the biblical version of it. Instead of randomly making gobblygook noises and pretending the holy spirit told you to say it, the biblical version of ‘speaking in tongues’ comes from the book of Acts, where the apostles we able to preach to the multitudes in languages that they (the apostles) didn’t speak. Did ya catch that? Speaking in tongues, biblically speaking, means speaking in actual human languages. The miracle being that you don’t know that language, but yet can still speak it, at least according to the bible. Which is supposed to be the basis for their whole ideology. Except, of course, when it’s not.

But hey, googa-mooka-hi-li-hoity-toity-logga-mugga. Feel me?


Unrelated side-note: I know, I know. I said I was wasn’t gonna read Pandagon anymore after the MJ thing (I still think you’re wrong for that Amanda, and you owe some of us an apology - not for what you said about MJ as much as what you implied about those of us that took issue with what you said). But what can I say. There’s nowhere else on the intertubes I can get the mix of writing that I can here.

Comment #57: Lennox  on  07/03  at  09:37 PM
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