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Next entry: Bamboo Reviews: Control Previous entry: Friday Genius Ten “Yeah, I Will Immediately Think Of 15 More” Edition

How grumpypants denunciations of Rock Band makes you the least rock and roll person alive

ChoadsMusicVideo Games

Video chosen because playing this is probably my #1 guilty pleasure in Rock Band.

Via Spencer and Nicholas comes yet another tired tirade against Guitar Hero and Rock Band for the high crime of being silly games, as opposed to artistic expression.  As Spencer notes, there is not a lick of evidence that Rock Band has stopped the formation of any real rock bands—-and I would point out that people who suspect this are showing, though they don’t realize it, that they are too lazy and out of it to listen to new music and therefore presume there isn’t any.  In fact, the contrary in many cases.  My consort actually learned to play the drums because of Rock Band.  (Alas, the drum set was too big to make the move to New York.)  I would also point out that Rock Band is a really great place for the talentless to have some fun without assaulting anyone by trying to play and making them pretend to give a shit. 

If these tirades are so tired, why link to David Hajdu writing about it?  I would say because he perfectly captures the self-contradictory, pointless arguments people make against Rock Band.  His is the most explicit.  He argues both that Rock Band is bad because it glorifies rock and roll’s excess, and it’s bad because it’s irreverent.  In making this argument, he demonstrates that he’s not only humorless, but that his humorless means he’s especially unqualified to say anything about rock and roll, a music that is at its best when it’s excessive and irreverent.  The thing that unnerves critics of Rock Band is that it’s actually quite rock and roll in its refusal to take itself, the music, or the culture of rock music too seriously.  I’ve found that most people who are wary of the game because they’ve heard all the hand-wringing find it incredibly fun and perfectly pitched, but that’s because people I tend to have in my life have a fucking sense of humor. 

Rock Band, much like karaoke, puts the overly reverent and humorless on edge because it interferes with what they see as a fan’s role in the entire business, which is prostrate before our rock gods.  Hajdu really betrays this attitude, and makes the same error that pretty much all humorless critics make, which is that people playing the game are trying to wear the mantle of our idols without earning it:

Artistry often begins as fandom—as an aspiration, at first, not really to express one’s creative identity but to take on someone else’s. Like a zillion kids my age, I ventured into music wanting to be John Lennon, much as he had started out wanting to be Chuck Berry, who had started out wanting to be Louis Jordan. Real anxiety comes not with influence, but with the imperative to transcend it, which is another part of creative development. For me, being in that imitation Monkees cover group was different than playing air guitar but very much like taking part in a session of The Beatles: Rock Band. I wasn’t pretending to play an instrument; I was pretending to play a Beatle.

He sticks to the Beatles Rock Band when exercising this argument, because looking at the main game—-where you custom create avatars, and can inject as much silliness as you like (I’ve gone back and made all mine punk versions of Disney princesses, which satisfies my love of irreverence)—-would really undermine his ultimately bullshit argument that Rock Band is somehow lulling its audience into mediocrity.  But like I said, I don’t think that’s exactly what upsets a lot of critics of Rock Band, because they have to know on some level that mediocrity needs no assistance, and that the vast majority of people who pick up instruments and learn to play are also not going to be the Beatles.  No, what bothers him and other critics is that we fans take our non-Beatle selves and dare to think we have a right to engage the song in any way outside the prescribed worshipful stance of listening quietly in awe.  Hitting the plastic guitar and goofing off to “Don’t Let Me Down” veers very close to making fun of the Beatles, in the eyes of the humorless—-like most critics, he flinches at the silliness of the plastic guitar, because he can’t see any pleasure in the absurd for its own sake. 


But there’s a legitimate difference between irreverent and just pointless mockery.  One thing that makes Rock Band satisfying is playing songs you adore on it, and having a good time simply enjoying them while also having a healthy sense of humor about your own absurdity.  There’s a reason that more and more rock musicians have come around to thinking Rock Band is awesome and releasing their music on it, and it’s because they know that having a sense of humor about yourself is central to the rock experience.  If anything, the times I don’t like the Beatles Rock Band is when I feel that sense of silliness slipping away, but even in that game, most of the time there’s a cheery goofiness to it.  To say that it doesn’t capture the Beatles because it’s not historically accurate is to miss the fact that it captures their sense of irreverent joy quite well.  (This is why the song “You’re No Rock And Roll Fun” kept going through my head while I read this article.) 

The other fun thing in Rock Band is playing over the top crap and enjoying the over the top crappiness of it.  That’s why songs like “Carry On My Wayward Son” and the Journey catalog are so popular—-ironic distance turns these songs from interminable crap to something that can be enjoyed for being interminable crap.  You enjoy yourself understanding why the tasteless enjoy these songs.  If you could make a video game about eating crappy hamburgers, it would be a similar experience.  But Hajdu takes that part way too seriously, too.

With success at that, the player progresses, and the avatar gets richer and more famous. Billy Idol/cousin Donny goes from playing in small clubs to concert halls to stadiums, amassing more and more of the material benefits of rock celebrity—first a van, then a tour bus, eventually a private jet … grander stage sets and bigger speakers, more dry ice and lasers, larger and more adulatory crowds of sexed-up kids….

There is no harm in all this, though clear dangers lie in the consequences of success in these games’ schemes—that is, in their opulent glorification of ego-gratifying luxury, idolatry, and easy sex. Foremost among those hazards is the delusion that an ego adequate to achieving rock stardom can be gratified by any amount of anything.

His tone deafness to what the game is doing with these elements is startling, namely his inability to notice that it’s all a big joke.  It’s one reason I don’t like Guitar Hero as much anymore, because they don’t seem to really understand rock culture enough to send it up, but Rock Band is pitch perfect in creating a space where the music can be appreciated for exactly what it is while no one takes the enterprise too seriously.  And one way they do this is by having these elements of super-stardom in the game to be sent up, sometimes gently and sometimes harshly.  (The managers and publicists are gross caricatures.)  Like a great music snob, Rock Band strikes a tone of appreciation for music unburdened by over-seriousness, right down to the ironic appreciation for trash.  Which is exactly the sort of stance that gave birth to American-style punk rock—-a love of rock combined with a humor-laden self-awareness and a big dose of irony—-but of course, in order to make his arguments work, Hadju just pretends punk rock never happened. 

There’s always been a kind of rock fan/critic who just can’t reconcile their love of rock music and their own overinflated self-importance.  The solution wasn’t to quit being so self-important, but to pretend that rock music conducted itself with a kind of seriousness that it simply can’t muster.  After all, it was born out of teeny-bopper music.  I would argue that it still is teeny-bopper music, and what rock music has done for a handful of generations now is given us permission to become adults without growing up and giving up the best parts of youth, which is to say it allows us to hang onto our playfulness.  I’d argue that rock music is part of the reason that video games are such mega-sellers now; because rock music gave us permission to be “childish”, adults with hard cash to spend are willing to do so on games that used to be considered childish.  The two forms are a natural fit, but of course, putting them together is going to therefore undermine the pretensions of people who take themselves too seriously.  Therefore, I can guess we’re going to keep getting hand-wringing articles like this for many years into the future.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:39 PM • (104) Comments

I’m curious about Guitar Hero: Does it actually teach skills that might transfer over to playing a real guitar, or is it just an expensive video version of air guitar? (Not that there’s anything wrong with that—-video games are supposed to be fun, after all.)

Comment #1: Bitter Scribe  on  01/08  at  07:05 PM

Rock Band and Guitar hero both feature drums and singing now in addition to guitar.  Guitar doesn’t really teach any skills that transfer over- other than encouraging rhythm and maybe helping you realize you have some finger dexterity you may not thought you possessed; but drums and singing both can be quite helpful in directly transitioning to the real thing.  The feel of the drums may not be the same as a full kit, but you really are drumming.

Comment #2: stormhit  on  01/08  at  07:17 PM

It really doesn’t, but you know, I didn’t learn to bash in bricks with my head by playing Super Mario Bros, either.  wink

The drums are a little different.  You can learn enough about the drums to make it easier to learn to play real drums.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/08  at  07:18 PM

That said, I have found that if I haven’t been listening to as much music as I usually do, I don’t do as well at the game.  It gives me the slight advantage of having more of a subconscious ability to anticipate what’s coming up.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/08  at  07:22 PM

Count me among the people who can’t get into it.  For some reason, playing an actual guitar is just soooo much easier than the wee plastic one, and the way the game handles scoring doesn’t facilitate murdering the classics Yo La Tengo style as much as I’d like.

Comment #5: Beyla  on  01/08  at  07:27 PM

GH helped my singing move from “awful” to “decent.”  My karaoke friends approve.

Comment #6: Punditus Maximus  on  01/08  at  07:33 PM

Agree with the comments above about the drums, even on the easiest difficulty level. As a drummer, though, I find that the actual difficulty of playing goes down as the difficulty level of the game goes up (to a point!), because it’s tough NOT to play aspects of the rhythm that you’re hearing and used to playing. Don’t know whether this is true for non-drummers.

Comment #7: NoJoy  on  01/08  at  07:38 PM

Cheesy classic rock songs are also popular on Guitar Hero and Rock Band because they’re so easy and fun and you know the lyrics backwards and forwards in your sleep so you can be extra super ridiculous when you sing them.

Comment #8: Denise  on  01/08  at  07:46 PM

GH gave me a sense of rhythm that I never had before. I never played any music growing up, and Guitar Hero gave me musical insights I had never developed.

Comment #9: James K. Polk, Esq.  on  01/08  at  07:47 PM

Beatles Rock band is super fun!!!! My nephews got it for christmas, we ( the parents and I) played it way more than they did.

Comment #10: Laureli  on  01/08  at  07:53 PM

Sounds like the guy should read through the “Stop Having Fun Guys” entry on TVTropes…

Comment #11: Scott  on  01/08  at  07:54 PM

The drums are missing alot of the things like doubletap that makes drumming into an art form.

But yeah, holding the tool and the rhythm is where the fun is at, making it reachable for all.

Comment #12: Crissa  on  01/08  at  07:58 PM

I do think there’s a psychological value in really kind of concentrating on how a song goes, and for people who don’t listen to music much, I think the games can really increase appreciation.  Hell, I listen to alot of music, and I feel more appreciation.  But’s not grumpypants appreciation, so I guess it doesn’t count.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/08  at  08:01 PM

They’re great games in the sense that they definitely improve concentration, memory, coordination, and rhythm.  They’re games that are really only fun with friends, so it forces you to socialize.  It’s a fairly fun diversion and it has, in my experience, expired kids to explore music.  My only issue is that People that can “play” guitar have always been a dime a dozen.  Now they’re a penny a gross.  Playing guitar in “Guitar Hero” doesn’t make you a guitar player.  It can help cultivate some skills you will need for bass or guitar, like dexterity and the afore-mentioned rhythm, but it doesn’t make you a guitar player.  It has, however, made it possible for my unemployed husband to give cheap vocal, guitar, and bass lessons to bring in a few extra bucks.  That also leads to music sales and helping me find a home for my old guitar that I broke and fixed and was too afraid to touch again.

Comment #14: Spooky Skeptic  on  01/08  at  08:08 PM

Wow.  Expired shoulda been inspired.  Wow.  That was pure fail, right there.

Comment #15: Spooky Skeptic  on  01/08  at  08:10 PM

“Sounds like the guy should read through the ”Stop Having Fun Guys” entry on TVTropes…”

Or even better, see the XKCD strip it was named for.

Comment #16: Caravelle  on  01/08  at  08:11 PM

I have a nerve injury in my left wrist which basically makes the guitar controller unplayable for me so I’ve fully missed out.  But even I get the point.  As a critic feel free to talk about how Activision has taken performers images beyond what their contracts apparently called for.  There is something there.  But that requires an idea of what the game is actually doing.

Comment #17: Robert  on  01/08  at  08:12 PM

I’ve always viewed said games as very much not for me.  To me, it’s like a penmanship game where you do these flourishes to the T’s and C’s while a digital image of Abraham Lincoln is speaking—and if you make a mistake, he looks and sounds stupid on the screen.  I suppose it’s fun for some people, but everything about Rock Band feels manipulative and leavened with superficial choices.  Being a loner also works against me liking it, given that it only looks be a tolerable activity if you do it with friends and talking and doing stuff as you play.  Does anyone play by themselves?  Do you like doing that?

I have played many instruments off and on when I was small kid, and I whistle and scat, doing doodle music for the entirety of my life.  I am a very noisy person to be around!  So when I do Buckethead air guitar, say Asylum of Glass, I’m having fun in the most unsociable way…and I can go off the rails anytime I want.

Anyways, Hajdu had a couple of points in there that might have been worth listening to, if it wasn’t under a metric shitload of GetOffaMyLawn! crusty mofo yap.

Last pedantic point I suppose should be made…

The etymology of the word “teenybopper” is that it was originally coined as a term for girls who liked to dance to jazz music (bop) in the ‘50s.  It was reused to describe girls who went enmass into the whole British Invasion movement in the ‘60s.  Rock wasn’t born of teenybopper music per se.  It was more like Rock music was *popularized* by rock musicians who catered to teens.  Chuck Berry was, after all, just one of many rock guys when he gained crossover appeal.  Now, Berry, James Brown, and their like most certainly didn’t take themselves seriously, so the general point Amanda made holds.

Comment #18: shah8  on  01/08  at  08:31 PM

I actually really don’t like playing Rock Band/Guitar Hero - this may just be because I have a super-competitive streak, but I get so caught up in hitting all the notes exactly that I don’t even really hear the music, and I actually find it fairly stressful. Fortunately, the part of my social circle that likes to play is too large for everyone to play at once, so I can hang out without playing. Singing along sans microphone is fine, so it all works out.

I do wonder, though, how much of the rants against Rock Band et al are rooted in the one person projecting their experience of the game - if I thought my experience of playing was at all typical, I probably would accuse the video games of killing musical appreciation, too.

Comment #19: jalmondale  on  01/08  at  08:33 PM

Since I keep getting booed offstage every time I try to play “Hey Man Nice Shot” in Guitar Hero: World Tour, I have to agree that the game is stupid and childish and harmful to everyone.

At least until I can get through the song.  Then it will be okay again.

Comment #20: Mnemosyne  on  01/08  at  08:34 PM

I have a nerve injury in my left wrist which basically makes the guitar controller unplayable for me so I’ve fully missed out.

See if one of your friends has the guitar that came with “Guitar Hero: World Tour.”  It has a “slider” part on it that allows you to tap the guitar instead of strumming with the bar, so if you can figure out how to play lefty, it might work for you.

Comment #21: Mnemosyne  on  01/08  at  08:37 PM

Boston is the fucking best!! ROCK AND ROLL!!!!!!

Comment #22: PhysioProf  on  01/08  at  08:47 PM

Any genre that has Meat Loaf in it cannot take itself seriously.

Comment #23: Keith  on  01/08  at  08:50 PM

No, what bothers him and other critics is that we fans take our non-Beatle selves and dare to think we have a right to engage the song in any way outside the prescribed worshipful stance of listening quietly in awe.

And this right here is fucked-up. 

It used to be that people sang and played instruments at home, with friends, while doing the laundry, out visiting, everywhere.  That habit was extinguished (in most places) with recorded music. 

Rock Band and Guitar Hero (and karaoke) make it possible for people to participate directly in music again in ways that are not “shameful”—think of the embarrassment people typically show when you catch them singing in the shower, in the car, to themselves while alone, because they’re not professionals.

Of course it only became really possible in this society when paired with an organized money-making scheme.  Sigh.  Try singing while shopping or walking down the street, and enjoy the looks.

Comment #24: oldfeminist  on  01/08  at  09:00 PM

“Sounds like the guy should read through the ”Stop Having Fun Guys” entry on TVTropes…”

Or even better, see the XKCD strip it was named for.

Link to XKCD strip, for anyone who hasn’t seen it.

Comment #25: Scott  on  01/08  at  09:11 PM

Shah8, I got the single controller version of Guitar Hero because most of my friends really aren’t into video games. It’s still fun on your own because you’re achieving something by doing well at the game. One problem is that it does tend to make you into “that guy” who’s far too good for multiplayer fun, as per this review of Smash Bros (from 2m55s).

Comment #26: Andrew_F  on  01/08  at  09:16 PM

Just got the DJ Hero for my birthday. I found it a little more difficult out of the box that guitar hero was, but then again, I play the guitar (or more correctly, play AT the guitar). I think they are both a ton of fun and my friends & I (or my nieces and nephews) can all play together & be silly & laugh at ourselves and each other. Like Amanda, I think of it as Karoake. Something completely unserious.

Comment #27: Mark  on  01/08  at  09:18 PM

My consort actually learned to play the drums because of Rock Band.

Really?  Or did it just make him want to learn?

Because actually knowing how to play the guitar has been a horrible detriment to my game play.  I was a big Beatle fan and got turned on to them at the same time I was learning guitar, so I know how to play a lot of Beatles songs by heart, and it has no relation to pressing the buttons on the guitarcontroller.

I can’ t think of playing Rockband as playing guitar, or a I suck majorly.  I have to turn off my brain and follow the colors.

I can see how using the microphone (if ours could keep a charge) could help singing, so maybe the drumpads work the same way.

Comment #28: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/08  at  09:28 PM

It used to be that people sang and played instruments at home, with friends, while doing the laundry, out visiting, everywhere.  That habit was extinguished (in most places) with recorded music.

According to my mom (who was state champ at 14), every home had a piano in it when she grew up.  That’s what you did—people came over for dinner, then they gathered around the piano and sang songs.  They’d buy the sheet music for the latest radio hits/showtunes/movie soundtracks.

I think TV killed it.  People sit and watch the tube instead of doing something.

My family still gathers around the piano and sings, and not just at Christmas.  We have lots of Disney songbooks for the little ones.  My spouse refers to us as the Waltons, but he enjoys it too, now, even if he rarely participates.

The kids love Beatles Rockband.  The eldest hated regular Rockband b/c you have to play crappy songs sometimes in order to progress, and he’s a rather eccentric music snob.  The Beatles?  Are now his favorite band.

Comment #29: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/08  at  09:37 PM

Because actually knowing how to play the guitar has been a horrible detriment to my game play.  I was a big Beatle fan and got turned on to them at the same time I was learning guitar, so I know how to play a lot of Beatles songs by heart, and it has no relation to pressing the buttons on the guitarcontroller.

This factor was one reason why I passed on opportunities to participate with friends and colleagues whenever GH was running at one of their homes.  Sometimes it can get viciously competitive…especially among the adolescently-minded who feel they are guitar gurus even though they cannot play any chords on an actual guitar. 

Also, read several online articles by guitar teachers who commented on how GH inculcates many bad habits they must teach them to unlearn….and how the excitement and comparative ease of GH means that there’s a higher number of students who come for a few lessons and drop the guitar when they realize it is a lot more hard work than they had anticipated. 

An issue especially when some parents end up shelling $700+ for a guitar and accessories.  The last part ended up being great for me as I was able to take advantage of some good craigslist deals as a result of this very phenomena.

Comment #30: exholt  on  01/08  at  10:13 PM

I play the piano (classical only), but most of the music I listen to is rock.  Got Rock Band and Beatles Rock Band for the kids for the holidays. We all love it. I particularly like the drums. And, as a total non-drummer, things do get more difficult for me as I increase the difficulty level (though I can see how this wouldn’t be true for a drummer, as NoJoy pointed out).  I find Beatles RB particularly fun because I was a huge Beatles fan as a little kid and I still know the entire catalog note-for-note in my head.

Comment #31: Ben Alpers  on  01/08  at  10:14 PM

I can see how using the microphone (if ours could keep a charge) could help singing, so maybe the drumpads work the same way.

My brother, a drummer, has the game. He prefers playing the game with the guitar, but he does fine with the drum kit. What he said he wanted most was to be able to take the drum kit apart and re-order the drum pads, so they’d match his preferred setup on his real drum kit.

Comment #32: Scott  on  01/08  at  10:16 PM

My main problem with Guitar Hero and Rock Band is that I tend to get bored with it pretty quickly. It’s not anywhere near as interactive or feature-deep as World of Warcraft, or even something like Disgaea. Or, you know, a book. After an hour or so, I start to think seriously about the dozens of other things I’d rather be doing.

opulent glorification of ego-gratifying luxury, idolatry, and easy sex

Yes, because dog forbid that a video game glorify the exact same things that, say, pretty much everything else in Western culture glorifies. That’d be positively scandalous.

Jesus, guy. Get some fucking perspective.

Comment #33: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  01/08  at  10:20 PM

I used to live near the Phoenix Public Library.  Checked out music in all genres.  Had no idea that anyone was paying attention until I came up to check out and a young guy reached under the counter and pulled out three CDs, “You might like these.”  He was dead on. Great ears.

He would take his break when I came in and we would chat.  Musically we were over the spectrum.  He turned me on to Islamic chants, I gave him the Library of Congress collection of African tribal chants.  We tried to decide how we could listen to so much and enjoy it when others wouldn’t even listen to it.

I spent the first 6 years of my life in the deepest part of the Ozark Mountains in Arkansas.  We had music. It might be a fiddle with three strings, an accordion that only four keys worked on it, some body bashing the bottom of a washing tub, spoons on skillets.  He was raised in the mountains of North Central Mexico and never even heard a radio until he was 12.

We agreed that we were incredibly lucky.

Comment #34: less is more  on  01/08  at  10:21 PM

Caren, I have a book of Beatle songs arranged for classical guitar, would you be interested in it?

Comment #35: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/08  at  10:34 PM

I love that you called Marc your “consort.”

Comment #36: Ranylt  on  01/08  at  10:39 PM

There’s an anecdote out there about how the drummer from a major band actually sat down at one of the drum controllers and attempted to play through the Rock Band version of their own song and was “booed” off the stage in less than 30 seconds.

I’m not a guitarist, but I am a trained musician, and those ingrained skills can actually hinder you while playing Guitar Hero, Rock Band, or the like. I know because I tried. Guitar Hero, especially, is notorious for enforcing a horribly bad sense of time, because if you’re counting along with the music in your head and playing things as you hear them (rather than as you see them) you’ll miss your entrances every time.

Don’t get me wrong, Guitar Hero and Rock Band have done more to advance the cause of musicmaking in the past two years than just about any advocacy campaign that MTV can throw together - but the problem is that people who expect it to be a gateway to playing on an actual instrument are going to find themselves horribly disappointed and that many of the skills you learn to negotiate the game simply do not translate to real-world playing.

If you’re playing it to enjoy the musicmaking, to revel in a childhood fantasy, or to just have some silly fun, that’s perfect. That’s what the game was for. If you’re playing it to try and learn skills to translate to playing an actual instrument, the game will give you some very rudimentary basics, but be very careful - go too far and you will learn bad habits.

Comment #37: DizzyMusician  on  01/08  at  10:44 PM

Another way GH/RB helps with playing a real instrument—it helps you bring in what you already (unconsciously?) know about music from being a listener. There are a few basic rock drumbeats that any music listener knows, but if you sit them in front of a drum kit, they won’t necessarily be able to recreate them. I think RB is better training for playing drums by ear than it is for reading sheet music, despite the fact that it’s “only” sheet music.

There might even be a similar effect with guitar. Obviously, it can’t teach you what the actual guitar technique used is, but I find myself attending specifically to the guitar parts of pop songs whenever I’ve played a lot of Rock Band recently, and from that I’ve noticed a lot more about how guitar tends to be used within a song, beyond the spots where a riff is right in the foreground.

Comment #38: Cavity Lee  on  01/08  at  10:48 PM

“Artistry often begins as fandom”
That seems to me a ridiculously unchecked assumption, particularly in rock and roll, where artistry often begins with discontent.

Comment #39: thewanderingjew  on  01/08  at  10:57 PM

“Artistry often begins as fandom”
That seems to me a ridiculously unchecked assumption, particularly in rock and roll, where artistry often begins with discontent.

Comment #40: thewanderingjew  on  01/08  at  10:57 PM

Of course it only became really possible in this society when paired with an organized money-making scheme. 

I think it’s because it scratches both the urge to participate in the music and to hear the best version of it, i.e. the recorded version.

Comment #41: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/08  at  11:31 PM

Really?  Or did it just make him want to learn?

A little of both.  He got really good and the game, and since the fake drums and real drums are a lot closer than the fake guitar and real guitar, it was a shorter leap to picking up the drums.  A friend of ours showed him the basics and he was off.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/08  at  11:34 PM

To be clear, Marc is kind of a natural musician.  I don’t know how many people who play drums on Rock Band would be able to make the switch.  He already knew how to read music and play the bass guitar, and he can sing.  All things that are beyond my tone deafness.

Comment #43: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/08  at  11:38 PM

Personally, I’m amused and frustrated by the way most of the diatribes against Rock Band I’ve read assume that everyone who enjoys playing it wants to actually learn how to play an instrument. I mean, I think it’s great that the games have inspired some people to learn how to play for real, but that just isn’t the draw for someone like me. I know that I have precious little musical talent and even less inclination to practice. I don’t want to learn how to play a real guitar. That’s hard work and I don’t want to do it. But an easy-to-pick-up video game that lets me pretend to be a rock star? Yeah, sure, sign me up for that!
I mean I play a lot of Mario Kart but that doesn’t mean that I want to take up go-karting as a realworld hobby! (Even if I am the one person in the world who actually prefers using the Wii wheel for Mario Karting.)

Comment #44: Ira Wyatt  on  01/09  at  12:00 AM

I have a nerve injury in my left wrist which basically makes the guitar controller unplayable for me so I’ve fully missed out.

Benjamin J. Heckindorn might have a solution for you if you’re really determined to get into the game.  He specializes in making third party accessible controllers.  Also it’s always worth a look to surf through Ablegamers.com to see if anyone else has tips or mods to get around an accessibility problem with a game.

I can’t get into the music games the same way I couldn’t get into the dancing games, trying to hit buttons with accurate timing really isn’t for me, even on a good day.  As someone who genuinely enjoys Journey (*raspberry*), I’d like to torture some people with my off key singing sometime, but not enough to sink money into a new gaming console.  I’ll stick to abusing voice chat in online games in order to serenade people with “Carry On My Wayward Son”.

Comment #45: Godless Heathen  on  01/09  at  12:04 AM

This blog increasingly engages in taking away people’s Cool Kid cards.

Comment #46: Eileen  on  01/09  at  01:05 AM

Ms. F had an unexpected snow day today and spent half an hour talking musically utterly talentless me into playing RB with her at Best Buy. Then she had to spend half an hour trying to get me to quit because I was having too much fun. She’s one of those people who can sound pretty good at nearly any instrument, but I actually kinda sorta learned how to play the drums. Great: like our tiny flat needs even more musical instruments in it.

Comment #47: felagund  on  01/09  at  01:42 AM

This blog increasingly engages in taking away people’s Cool Kid cards.

Oh come on, Eileen.

Comment #48: mr_subjunctive  on  01/09  at  02:49 AM

Eileen:

This blog increasingly engages in taking away people’s Cool Kid cards.

The real problem with Cool Kid cards is that they don’t actually exist.

Comment #49: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  01/09  at  03:25 AM

@48:

Oh come on, Eileen.

Genius. :D

Comment #50: DizzyMusician  on  01/09  at  07:17 AM

I’m just delurking to say, YES to everything Amanda said. I read this TNR piece and my eyes could not stop rolling. I’m especially uncertain of where Hajdu got the idea that SEX was somehow being used to lure gamers onwards in Rock Band. What?

I’m also among the ranks of those who started playing music, arranging my own music, and playing in a band, all directly because of Rock Band. There are at least hundreds, and probably thousands of people that have done this with the drums alone, according to some estimates from Harmonix, which pretty neatly disapproves one of the central grumpy anti-rock-band theses. It’s kind of hilarious to admit at this point, when I can earn money from playing the drums and am fortunate enough to be able to play shows for packed houses of hundreds of people, that I “learned to play the drums from Rock Band,” but people I know still tell others that.

I don’t use it as a gimmicky angle because I actually learned to play from a drum teacher—it’s just that I had a huge head start, and my teacher couldn’t believe I hadn’t played on an actual set before. Playing Rock Band drums helped a lot in learning 3-way coordination, song structure and common beats, developing basic chops, and a couple other things. (You kind of have to play on expert, though, and preferably with a cymbal expansion.) I still download new music on Rock Band a lot because it’s actually an easier, quicker way to get an idea of a song’s structure and drum tab than listening to it thoroughly and transcribing it (although that’s still a good skill for any musician to learn) and more visceral than reading a tablature.

Oh, and there are quite a few songs in Rock Band that do feature “double-taps,” i.e. drags. What Rock Band and Guitar Hero really don’t have is a hi-hat pedal (for four-way coordination)—that drives me crazy—and like all but the most expensive electronic drums, there is very little in the way of dynamic control, you can’t experiment with loudness and different sounds using technique and different kinds of sticks, etc. No cross-sticking, rimshots, cymbal sweeps, or open rolls. And DizzyMusician is right in that you can learn bad habits—maybe that’s even more true of the guitar, although on the drums you can learn bad habits if you’re self-taught on an acoustic kit as well as an electronic one.

All of that said, the POINT of these games is not to be a substitute or even a gateway to playing music, the real point is to be a game about music, specifically rock music. It’s far from being the same thing; perfect mimetic realism is not the purpose or the pinnacle of simulation. The enjoyment and the “meaning” of games like Rock Band come in the distance and not-exactly-like-it relationship that they have with what’s being simulated; that’s a lot of what makes it fun, and a lot of the mistakes that critics make.

I actually kind of miss being able to relate to Rock Band as a game and nothing more than a game, although I can still get that feeling from picking up the plastic guitar. When I play the drums, it now feels much more like reading sheet music, and I don’t even want to hit all the notes correctly; I’m playing to see what another drummer did with a song, and I do it slightly in my own style on occasion. Then, if I’m interested in learning the song I switch the game into freestyle mode and just play it without any game at all, using it like a regular electronic drum kit. I use that mode to practice my own music (and basic exercises) too. Plus, playing on an electronic kit is really useful when you live in a NYC apartment!

Comment #51: Holly  on  01/09  at  08:46 AM

<—wants a Cool Kid card

But seriously, one thing Rock Band has done is significantly broaden my offsprings’ rock music repertoire.  Which is nice because I was gettin a little tired of listening to nothing but German death metal (older offspring) and 3 Doors Down (younger offspring).  smile  ($5 goes to whoever can correctly guess, based on their previous musical preferences, 1 song that each of them now loves from Rock Band 2.)

Comment #52: Lisa KS  on  01/09  at  10:23 AM

Also, those of us who really can sing but who lack a large degree of hand-eye coordination can really get a kick out of fiiiiiinnnnallly maxing out something on a console game on the highest level of difficulty. hee.

Comment #53: Lisa KS  on  01/09  at  10:27 AM

I had to look, this guy is the “music critic” for TNR?  No wonder he hates anything fun what the fuck kind of job is music critic for TNR?

It’s a game, have fun with it.  End of story.  That this needs to be told to someone (Hadju) isn’t surprising but it is utterly pathetic.

Comment #54: ice weasel  on  01/09  at  11:52 AM

This blog increasingly engages in taking away people’s Cool Kid cards.

Examples?  Is it really so out of control to make fun of people for using the “get off my lawn!” argument?  I mean, the whole point of the post was that the snobby attempts to take away your—-well not Cool Kids card, but I guess serious person worthy of being treated like a real music fan card—-was misplaced.  I was making a populist argument for music fandom, one that’s more inclusive, less concerned with putting rock stars on a pedestal and saying that we lesser mortals shouldn’t participate.

But whenever you argue for joy and irreverence, someone is going to pretend you’re picking on the nerds.

Comment #55: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  12:18 PM

I know rock and roll is supposed to be fun and all, but sometimes it can be fun to take it seriously.  There will always be arguments about the proper way to participate in the appreciation of rock music, and, for lack of a better term “rock culture.”  Being a semi-elderly person, my own ideas about it have become somewhat petrified, and I have long since gone through the stage of mocking the “interminable crap” that was popular during my youth, coming through the other side to somewhat appreciate it, or at least listen to it through the haze of nostalgia.  If there’s a “rock and roll aesthetic” (or, more seriously, a “rock aesthetic”), games like Rock Band would seem to comfortably fit into its evolution (see “The Triumph of Vulgarity” by Robert Pattison), and I would not try to denigrate the concept or enjoyment of it.  However, the one time I heard somebody playing such a game, it hurt my delicate eardrums, and I have no wish to revisit such an experience, preferring instead to get out my old copy of “Metal Machine Music.”

Comment #56: Russell60  on  01/09  at  12:33 PM

The problem, Russell, is that no one has perfected darkly irreverent humor like Lou Reed.  I try to imagine a song like “Heroin” with all the humor taken out, and I’m imagining something with all its soul drained out.

Comment #57: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  12:38 PM

@Lisa KS—

Exactly!  I have to play most video games on easy, so I love being able to sing on RB and have it on hard and do very well.  (I can’t do it on expert, because it interprets my vibrato as wrong notes.  :-p)

My family did “Christmas” last weekend, and the most fun was when my mom, my sister, my BIL and I all played RB.  We’re all classically trained musicians (actually, everyone but me teaches music) and it was a lot of fun to chill out and “play” guitar and drums and screw up and just have fun.  Especially after some not-so-fun family drama earlier in the day.

Comment #58: Karinna A.  on  01/09  at  01:27 PM

Populist arguments always ends up excluding someone.  That’s what they’re often for.  I always hated going to karaoke because what if you’re not funny?  What if you don’t pass the irreverence test or have the right attitude while you’re performing in front of an audience, but all your friends are going and get pissed if you object (ok, yes, this has happened to me)?  What is the right attitude?  Someone’s karaoke friends will approve if someone’s singing skills improve.  But what if they get too good?  Maybe take themselves too seriously because they just like singing and aren’t there to make some (in its own way very self-serious) irreverent and ironic comment on the song they’re singing or the rock star in question.  I think it’s disingenuous to act like there’s no judgment taking place.  It’s just a different judgment with a different set of justifications.  There’s an audience, there’s a performer, there’s almost always alcohol, there’s always judgment.

Or I’m just projecting really transparently, blah blah blah, but I really don’t think karaoke is this totally uncomplicated Up with People irreverence burlesque.  I mean, it’s not Thunderdome, obviously, but it’s also not this weird social Utopia you’d get the impression it was from reading here.

Comment #59: nickelas  on  01/09  at  02:04 PM

nickelas, if the need not to make anyone feel excluded veers into punishing people for being smart, funny, clever, or simply having fun, then it’s gone too far.  If you think there’s a way to get out of “judgment”, you’re wrong—-you’ve simply decided that the person being judged is the nail that sticks out that needs to be hammered down.

Given the choice between a world with judgments but without pleasure, humor, or cleverness and a world with judgments and with pleasure, humor, and cleverness, I’ll take the latter.

Comment #60: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  02:13 PM

And look, I’m not trying to imply that I considered doing something absurd and nonsensically whiny like “going Galt” over the whole karaoke thing.  I just think all these attitudes have their standards and codes of conduct, not just the dumb, stodgy, justifiably ridiculed rock critic “um, the Beatles are serious? so Rock Band is wrong?” attitude.

Comment #61: nickelas  on  01/09  at  02:17 PM

Also, what’s “too good” at karaoke? You seem all confused.  On one hand, we’re not supposed to applaud humor, because that makes the humorless feel left out, but you’re also angry at people who smack down someone whose singing voice is too good.  I’ve done a lot of karaoke, and I’ve never seen someone smacked down for putting on too good a show.  I’ve seen people smacked down for being boring—-being so up their own ass with their own egos they forget to have fun—-but that’s not being “too good”.  A good performance, regardless of the situation, involves entertaining an audience.

In your rush to condemn judgment, you managed to uphold both conformist judgments and elitist judgments.  Fascinating.

Comment #62: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  02:20 PM

Well, I’ve been to a lot of karaoke, and yeah, humorless karaoke performances don’t get the same applause as someone who has ‘em rolling.  Your point? I never said that it was a place where you can just suck and annoy people and be loved for it.  I said it was a space where people can goof off and have irreverent fun while still enjoying music.

If reverence is so important, go to church.

Comment #63: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  02:22 PM

I’ll also point out that assholes who think they’re funny because they’re frat boys whose friends blow smoke up their asses all the time, and then get up and try to sing “The Humpty Dance” and fail miserably, and try to act like they were just funning get their comeuppance.  And what kind of egalitarian would I be if I didn’t applaud that sort of triumph of merits and taste over white male privilege?

Comment #64: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  02:41 PM

Amanda, I guess that’s fair enough, but it seems like a neat rhetorical trick to say “I like things that are clever and witty and fun.  Who wants to punish fun?”  Well, gee, who *would* want to?  “We’re not picking on the nerds, we’re just saying they should lighten up and “get” karaoke and Rock Band the “right” way or don’t participate in those things in public, where those activities often take place?” Well, I guess that’s reasonable. 

It seems like these are all essentially consumerist judgments, distinctions made in an arena where the self-perceptions that people want to exhibit to other people are actually performed, in public, on stage even.  Its irony making a play for authenticity.  “See, I’m not pretentious, I get that this is just fun. I’m the kind of person who thinks X about Y song.”  So, as you said, there’s no way to escape judgment.  Especially when it’s such fun.  But there seems to be some kind of stodginess around pretty much every corner.  Again, that’s consumerism.

I don’t know.  This sounds paranoid and nerdy, but I read a lot about consumerism, so I see it everywhere.  I swear I’m not this lame guy who dissects people trying to enjoy themselves all the time (even though that’s what I’m being and doing here.).  Don’t judge me!  Also speaking on behalf of the one person who kinda disagreed with the original post.  Eileen, I think.

Comment #65: nickelas  on  01/09  at  02:43 PM

Look, no one is saying people who don’t get pleasure out of goofing off should be required to do it, full stop. 

The problem starts when fogeys demand that non-fogeys give up their pleasures, be ashamed, or completely remake the activity to suit fogey tastes, so the fogeys don’t feel nerd-shamed.  Why should it have to be that way? It’s very “cake and eat it, too”—-wanting to be humorless but cool, wanting to be a fogey but still considered ripe and hip, wanting to have fun without having fun. 

The problem is that if everything is made for fogeys, non-fogeys have no pleasures.  We aren’t obligated to make fun things less fun to leave other people out.

Trying to pull the consumerism shame thing isn’t going to fly with me.  The notion that there will never be a market, and that spending money on entertainment is de facto sinful is conflating legitimate leftist criticisms of the abuses of capitalism with puritanical fun-killing.

Comment #66: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  02:58 PM

As for Eileen, don’t worry about it.  I’ve found in blogging that it’s pretty much impossible to express a love of something without people who don’t love it deciding that you’re trying to shame them.  I run the Friday Genius Ten because Friday is a good time to relax and talk about music; everyone is invited to share. But occasionally I still get people griping because they think that playing some music videos is, without any evidence to suggest this, an attempt to shame people who don’t know about the music.

Which makes no sense to me, for a few reasons.  One, part of the reason to play the songs is to expand awareness—-simply sharing music assumes that it’s reasonable that someone else doesn’t know about it, and that they might—-might—-want to know.  Two, if you really don’t know and don’t care, then what’s it to you?  Three, if it bugs you that there’s something you don’t know about, then knowing about it is right around the corner.  It’s not like indie music or whatever has some sort of passcode.  Especially not in the modern age of Google.

Comment #67: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  03:03 PM

No it’s not sinful, but let’s have our eyes open about it and stop acting like we don’t go to karaoke precisely to judge people.  I mean, you put “merits and taste” together as if they have anything to do with each other.

Comment #68: nickelas  on  01/09  at  03:03 PM

Shades of Aurelius there.

Comment #69: nickelas  on  01/09  at  03:04 PM

I don’t go to karaoke to judge other people.  What a weird and cynical assumption.  I go to have fun.  To sing songs, drink beers, talk to friends, goof off. 

You seem committed to the idea that we can somehow escape disliking something.  But something’s goodness will always be in contrast with something’s badness.  You fail to grasp that forcing someone to pretend to like something that annoys them is also a form of judgment, judging them for having standards or tastes. And that it can be very nasty and cruel, and like I noted, it encourages mediocrity and conformity.

Comment #70: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  03:07 PM

Shades of Aurelius?  How?  Aurelius set a gold standard in humorless priggishness, swiping at something simply for existing after an era that he deemed the proper end of music.

There’s a yawning gulf between people who want to shame everyone for listening to music because it’s fun and pleases them and people who get annoyed when you suggest that the very act of having fun is oppressive to people who don’t enjoy fun.  I’m in the latter category, for sure.

Comment #71: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  03:10 PM

I mean, for sure, laughter is going to not be fun for people for whom laughing is not fun.  At what point should people not laugh to make sure the laughter hater is included?

Comment #72: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  03:11 PM

@Karinna—LOL, I do have *some* complaints along the lines of how “expert” screws up vibrato too—RB also makes you sing ALL the singers’ parts and also all the parts that were overlapped together on the final song via studio finangling from the same singer, which is so massively unfair!  Also, you have to cut short some notes in order to avoid accidentally triggering “overdrive,” and—but it is fun.

And it is a great family thing to do together. smile

Comment #73: Lisa KS  on  01/09  at  03:32 PM

I hadn’t thought about it like that or really interrogated sufficiently the kinds of judgments I was making.  I still think that there is no such thing as objective taste, and I still think that class and consumerism are embedded in the judgments we make on its behalf on whatever level in whatever space.  Further, I don’t think there is any such thing as pure fun, and the fact that there will never be a world without markets doesn’t make that the case.  I will take my Wellbutrin and reevaluate that last statement, but in the meantime, I do want to say something that can often get lost in e-text:

This discussion has made me more curious and I’m already thinking about books that I want to order as a result, which is wonderful. I think I said some assy things, and I apologize for that because I have really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope no one was offended by anything (clearly, haha).

I look forward to reading future installments of pandagon, and I hope I haven’t kept you or anyone from getting down to writing them.

Comment #74: nickelas  on  01/09  at  03:43 PM

No worries. That there is no objective taste is a given, but the people who get offende at expressions of taste don’t really think that, or they’d be more secure.

Comment #75: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  03:47 PM

The funny thing about this is that people actually have figured out how to turn a Guitar Hero controller into a working musical instrument. It doesn’t play much like a guitar either, but it certainly works (something along the lines of a MIDI controller).

As a general rule I’m not a big fan of toy “guitars” that make all kinds of random noise but can’t be played in any form resembling an actual musical instrument. I don’t think this applies to Guitar Hero or Rock Band though—for one thing, creating a realistic guitar controller (even on the scale of a ukulele) would be an ungodly complex undertaking akin to designing a completely new sort of keyboard. For another, though it doesn’t much resemble a guitar, it is in fact participatory in a way that noodling around with a toy “electric guitar” noisebox isn’t.

That said, who’s going to be twisted enough to come up with “Keyboard Hero”...

Comment #76: BrianX  on  01/09  at  03:51 PM

But why wouldn’t you count Aurelius’s expression of taste for classical music as such?  If they’re never objective, then they’re never good or bad either.  That’s what I meant when mentioned that commenter.

Comment #77: nickelas  on  01/09  at  04:01 PM

Now I thought I’d respond to the “cool card” thread by tossing in a link to “We’re Through Being Cool.” Of course, the first page of links on YouTube is mostly people posting their best performances of same in RB. I suppose I have to get this game now. smile

Comment #78: Theron  on  01/09  at  04:47 PM

Eileen: Increasingly? Nah, AM’s always been that judgmental. Don’t worry, she’ll soon enough exceed the age that she can still pass for hip, and she’ll worry less about whether others are irreverent and fun and witty enough. Whether they’re sufficiently cool. She might even realize how pointless and self-defeating hyper-irony is for her serious causes and her aspirations to be a public intellectual.

nickelas: You articulated what I’ve kept as half-formed thoughts for some time. Thanks.

I suppose RB is fun for many, and that’s fine I guess, but I personally like to *listen.*

Comment #79: wapsie  on  01/09  at  05:52 PM

Something that also gets lost in all the shuffle is that this is the main avenue in which kids today get an education through the history of rock. Rock Band is pretty much the big gateway drug into any genre of music in the greater rock universe and I haven’t seen someone go into it who didn’t leave with more expanded tastes. People who think they don’t like punk or metal hear something good. People who sneer at the “classics” for being fuddy duddy get to enjoy them and people who think the 80s power ballad are way too silly to be taken seriously find out yes, but they can be a lot of fun to sing along to.

I agree with an earlier comment that Rock Band has done more for the industry in being a gateway drug than even Napster used to be.

Comment #80: Cerberus  on  01/09  at  06:53 PM

I think you might be surprised at the number of people who consider themselves fans of the game and yet continue to hold onto the worst kind of music snobbery. The Free 20 songs that are given away with new copies of Rock Band is a perfect example. Some folks abjectly refuse to download them because (outside of the Wii version) they cannot pick and choose which songs they want.

It seems anything that might have the word ‘pop’ prefixed to whatever genre means it’s bad.

Even within the Rock Band and/or Guitar Hero communities it’s not one big ‘shiny, happy people’ convention.

Comment #81: Santa Claustrophobia  on  01/09  at  08:14 PM

I wouldn’t have much trouble with the games simply because I wouldn’t take them seriously enough to get competitive. I can sing (strangely for a white guy, I sound like Philippe Wynne), and play rhythm guitar, bass and a modicum of keyboard. So if it’s for laughs, I could do it, but I keep thinking, why would I want to? I have enough friends who play musical instruments that we could jam for an evening without all the silly gameplaying. I even like rearranging/updating some old tunes to modern instruments. So all this venom-spitting back and forth just makes me shrug.

Comment #82: mndean  on  01/09  at  09:45 PM

But why wouldn’t you count Aurelius’s expression of taste for classical music as such?

You say this as if I objected to Aurelius liking classical music.  I don’t! I object to him suggesting the only people who write good music are Dead European Males.  His problem wasn’t that he made an aesthetic judgment per se; it’s that he was a complete pseudo-intellectual ass about it.  If you want an absolutist argument about when it is and isn’t “okay” to make a judgment, you won’t get it here.  There’s obviously a lot of subtlety that you’re perhaps missing out on.  But I’d argue that most people would rightfully see a huge, yawning gulf between someone suggesting the only human beings that could have ever written music of value were white men who died hundreds of years ago, and someone having a good time at karaoke, despite the fact that a very small minority of people feel left out because they don’t enjoy goofing off. 

Your search for absolutes is going to create oppression, even if you don’t want it to.  Denying people the pleasure of liking A because people who don’t like A will be left out is far more oppressive than including everyone at the cost of pleasing no one.

Comment #83: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  10:25 PM

Don’t worry, she’ll soon enough exceed the age that she can still pass for hip, and she’ll worry less about whether others are irreverent and fun and witty enough. Whether they’re sufficiently cool.

Your continued hope that I’ll become bitter and miserable and lose my sense of humor is disturbing.  And wrong. There are elderly people who enjoy laughing!  I can think of many older writers out there, past and present, who weren’t consumed by bitterness because they aged, and had a healthy sense of humor and gosh, even irony!

Comment #84: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  10:26 PM

The Free 20 songs that are given away with new copies of Rock Band is a perfect example. Some folks abjectly refuse to download them because (outside of the Wii version) they cannot pick and choose which songs they want.

I’m not sure it makes you a Bad Person if you dislike a song and don’t want to hear it.  Though I suppose wapsie would agree that we’re have only achieved a fair world if everyone is equally miserable.

Comment #85: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  10:28 PM

It’s funny to me how it’s specifically rock music that gets people bunched up and so defensive they accuse you of saying things you didn’t, or they start openly hoping that you’ll be a miserable, humorless prig one day.  I argued that rock music has its own culture, sensibility, and humor that Rock Band fits; I never said that people who don’t share that sensibility were Bad People or that music that doesn’t have that sensibility sucks.  I actually listen to and occasionally write about music I like that doesn’t share those qualities.  Country-western is something I like a lot, and I’d argue it has a lot more space to be un-self-consciously maudlin in a way that rock doesn’t.  So when I’m in that mood, I listen to country western.

The problem at hand is that rock music’s aesthetic is “cool”, and everyone wants to be “cool”.  Or actually they don’t, but people who don’t want to be cool don’t get so bunched up and defensive about it.  And while I 100% agree that some people are the Cool Police, and that can get ridiculous, it’s also true that simply saying that something is or isn’t “cool” in this strictly rock and roll sense is a legitimate aesthetic judgment, that doesn’t have to have all this baggage with it. 

If everything is crammed into “cool”, “cool” becomes meaningless, in the same way that if you call everything “art”, “art” becomes meaningless. That doesn’t mean non-art automatically means valueless. 

Hadju doesn’t share the rock and roll sensibility.  That would be fine, except that he insisted on diving in and trying to redefine rock and roll outside of the things that make it rock and roll so that he could be “in” without actually having to change his sensibilities.  And that’s fucked up.  Why can’t he just like what he likes that suits him better?  Why should rock and roll have to change to fit him?  It’s not like there’s not other options.

And that’s always where you end up when you start to get into this begrudging people their pleasure because they’re “cool” or whatever situation—-if we redefine a genre, culture, or form so that people who disagree with all it’s about can feel accepted, you drive out the people who got meaning and pleasure out of it, and they’re left with nothing.  It’s a lot like the way conservative women who love the patriarchy insist that we’re meanies if we say that being a feminist means, at bare minimum, you should believe women are equal.

Comment #86: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  11:09 PM

Or, put another way, there are a lot of things that don’t suit my sensibility.  For instance, golf.  Playing golf seems to me to be the boringest way to spend time in the world.  But that other people play golf in no way, shape, or form irritates me.  I don’t think they’re flaunting their golf love.  I don’t think that hitting the tees is a subtle judgment on me for not finding it pleasurable to whack a white golf ball around. If they explain why golf means something to them, I take them at their word.  Their not-like-me-ness is simply not about me. 

Or a better example is yoga. I’ve tried yoga.  I don’t really get it.  It’s simply too slow moving and probably too earnest for me.  Does that mean that I attack yoga fans for excluding me?  Do I sniff at them and suggest that they’re buying into corrupt values for excluding me?  Do I claim that I was left out of the Cool Kids Club because yoga wasn’t remade to suit my tastes?  Maybe in weak moments, but generally speaking, I figure yoga makes sense to people do it, and I probably shouldn’t carry on about something I don’t really understand.

Comment #87: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/09  at  11:21 PM

Amanda,
If you watch golf, it’s the dullest thing imaginable. You have to play it to get any enjoyment out of the game. It’s just another ball-striking game, just individual rather than team. Half the fun can be to see if you can get it anywhere near where it’s supposed to go. Alcohol can help those who aren’t very good at it. How it ever survived as a “sport” on television is beyond me.

Comment #88: mndean  on  01/09  at  11:29 PM

The problem at hand is that rock music’s aesthetic is “cool”, and everyone wants to be “cool”.

Though that is a major part, isn’t another major part of rock’s aesthetic being loud, rebellious, and especially to piss off the parents and the rest of the establishment….especially the narrow-minded pseudo-intellectual types who feel that older accepted cultural artifacts like classical music/jazz is the be-all and end-all of music?

That was certainly its appeal to me…and several older friends and neighbors including some who were teens in the ‘50s & ‘60s.

Comment #89: exholt  on  01/10  at  12:09 AM

to anyone who thinks the beatles took themselves seriously, i have two word: blue meanies.

Comment #90: chibi  on  01/10  at  12:23 AM

I’m not sure it makes you a Bad Person if you dislike a song and don’t want to hear it.  Though I suppose wapsie would agree that we’re have only achieved a fair world if everyone is equally miserable.

No, it doesn’t make anybody a Bad Person if they don’t like much, if any, of the Free 20. Or any other song that’s available.

I think it sounded better in my head before I tried to type it out.

The connection I probably made is how it seems similar, in my head anyway, that Hadju writes something that is the equivalent of ‘Hey you! Stop liking things I don’t like!’ and some RB/GH players who probably spend more time complaining about optional content rather than finding anything…comforting?...in what they have.

Does that make any sense? It’s like the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory meeting the worst aspects of music snobbery.

Rock music probably invites so much debate because music is (Usually? Probably?) about passion. And rock kind of intensifies that. It’s been stirring up controversy for nearly 60 years. Why stop now, now that it’s even more interactive for ordinary people.

Comment #91: Santa Claustrophobia  on  01/10  at  02:17 AM

The thing I found weird about the one Beatles Rock Band thingy that I participated in was that the points were awarded for being exactly the same as the original.  As someone who has in the past fancied herself as something as a singer I found it disconcerting to be penalised for trying to put my own interpretation on a song.  I get that that is the point of the game, but that’s probably why I’ll only play it with my friend who loves it, but won’t get into it independently.

Comment #92: Katherine  on  01/10  at  06:56 AM

Besides matching the original being the point of the game, it’s probably immensely difficult to code a bit of software to reward you for coming up with your own interpretation.

Comment #93: dayraven  on  01/10  at  08:02 AM

I’m all for the ironic appreciation of trashy pop culture, but the only encounter with Guitar Hero I’ve had was awful.  Christmas at the in laws a few years ago.  I’m positive there was no irony in their appreciation of the busty, tube top, tattoo sporting avatars and misogynistic 80’s hair metal.  I could give a fuck about being rock and roll fun.  I have grade school age daughters.  They don’t do irony yet.  Turn that shit off.


Beatles Rock Band looks like a lot of fun, but cheap, used instruments and audacity or garageband is more fun.  Maybe most people don’t have to choose, but given the outrageous cost, a lot certainly do.  Making your own noise.  More rock and roll.

Comment #94: deweydm  on  01/10  at  01:05 PM

And no one suggested that people who didn’t get Rock Band the way you wanted or didn’t like karaoke were boring insecure nerds with huge egos?  Hipster prejudices: the hardest to be reflective about. 

By the way, enshrining bourgeois values like precious Individualism and Excellence (as opposed to - gasp! - mediocrity) is more conformist than Walmart.  All of this pretend subversion, as if Rock’n'roll and popular culture hadn’t exhausted their subversive potential or married it to interests that only care about the appearance of subversion long ago.  It is, more than anything at this point, a surefire way of continuing to create novelty, which is a great way to fool people into thinking things are changing when they aren’t and is the lifeblood of the consumer cycle.  Rock’n'roll rebellion is and has been the most insidious kind of conformity since at least 1970 if it wasn’t always already that way.  Again, this is not absolute (talk about people saying you said things that you didn’t).  Racial and sexual freedom was realized under rock’n'roll and other popular culture, absolutely.  I’m not blind to capitalism’s revolutionary potential and all that.  Capitalism isn’t all evil, I know.  However, the kind of society we have the privilege of enjoying also creates oppression, certainly as far as class is concerned.  This, I always thought, was obvious.

I am not telling people not to enjoy things.  I’m just trying to be reflective about what enjoyment means, what pleasure means.  Trying to get people to remember.  Apparently, an audience and some alcohol are great ways to help you forget long after the show is over. 

I don’t know the answer, obviously.  I’m not as utterly sure that I’m right about pretty much everything as some.  I may be overzealous in trying to think in contrarian terms or trying to figure out how to deal with things, but if you aren’t able to be reflective about how pleasure and fun can be used to bolster oppression through the consent of the privileged, then that’s just laughable, and it contradicts a lot of the other very valuable things you say here.  But go ahead, enjoy your “pure fun” for the fun funny fun of it.  Yay! Fun!

Comment #95: nickelas  on  01/10  at  07:17 PM

dewedm,
I have a musician friend who’s spent a fortune on a home studio setup - Pro Tools, Reason, laptop exclusively for recording, extra USB drive, ad nauseam. I can take my limited set of instruments in Audacity on my tower and do just as well and it didn’t cost me anything extra. I tried to get him to use Audacity instead of spending all the money (he doesn’t even use Reason since he can’t play keyboards at all), but some people aren’t happy unless they spend beaucoup bucks. Some musicians are as bad as car collectors.

Comment #96: mndean  on  01/10  at  07:32 PM

See, here’s an example from Rock itself.  From the Miinutemen, a pretty “rockin’” band that was “fun” and “funny,” but not blindly so.

What of the people who don’t have what I got?
Are they victims of my leisure?
To fail is to be a victim.
To be a victim of my choice.
Maybe partying will help.

Don’t worry, you don’t ever have to think about the fun you have in any critical way ever.  Maybe partying will help.

Comment #97: nickelas  on  01/10  at  07:37 PM

By the way, enshrining bourgeois values like precious Individualism and Excellence (as opposed to - gasp! - mediocrity) is more conformist than Walmart.

Yes, the bourgeois have plotted to have karoke nights all across this land be about Individualism and Excellence, not fun with music and friends lubricated with ethanol at various intervals.

Dude, you’re really overthinking this…...

Comment #98: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/10  at  08:34 PM

mndean,

I have a friend who’s been largely dateless since I’ve known him.  After decades of hearing him make the occasional, critical comment about the appearance of women who seemed attractive in many ways, it finally occurred to me that he’s holding out for a super model or something.  I’m guessing it’s even easier to trip up your own enjoyment of music in a similar fashion.

Comment #99: deweydm  on  01/10  at  10:20 PM

I have certain things that I enjoy. Very few. Excellent original music is one of my enjoyments. I have met and talked to a lot of music promoters over the years. Some great new band isn’t hitting, only the scenesters know that it exists. Show up, six, maybe 10 people are there. A few people make calls when the changeover is made, a couple more people who didn’t want to hear or were busy but want to hear the group.

Poor promoters, I have sympathized with so many of them while secretly thinking, “glad I got see them before things went to hell.” I may get 2 or maybe up to 6 shows before they hit. Then it is the drunken frat boys and sorority girls who will be able to say “I saw them when…..” That is when I stop going.

I’ve been on the Sunset Strip and run into bands that I maybe saw three years before, “Hey, man, where you been. We put you on the guest list at every show. Come see our new stuff.” “Much appreciate, I’ve been busy, I’ll catch you as soon as I can.”

Hung around a place for several years. Hadn’t been in for some time. Band that got real big came to town. Could have played a 1500 to 2000 person place, instead insisted on playing “the place that booked us when there weren’t 10 fans.”

I was in line to pay and as I came up to the promoter’s rep, someone behind me said, “Check the guest list for xxxx.” I’d just as soon pay, the money goes to the band. The rep pulled the guest list and looked at it, then showed it to me and asked “Are you any of these xxxx named people, you?” Uh, yes, all. “I’ve never seen anything like this before, both promoters put you on the list, the club manager and all three bands put you on their lists, who are you?” “Oh, just somebody that likes music.” Spent most of the show talking to the members of the bands that I had met before or in the green room doing shots. I’d rather have seen the show.

Anything that keeps the talkers out, I favor. Games, hell, yes, why waste your ears on live music?

Truly silly thing is that I don’t have a single song that I know all of the words to, including the national anthem. Not one album that I know all of the songs on. There have to be at least 20,000 albums that are truly worth listening to and I have hardly scratched the surface. If I listened to music 24 hours a day, I could not listen to all of the good albums that are out there, just not owned by one of the major labels.

Ever wonder why there are some bands that you really love and you only hear songs on the radio from the first two or three albums?  Maybe only three or four songs that are played over and over and over?  Check who owns the copyright, yep, the record company in the conglomerate that programs everything for four hundred radio stations in the country out of a shack in Hoboken, NJ.

I’ve personally only met one person who retired out of music.  He had been a session player in Hollywood. He was working with a music producer who put a hell of a lot of his music on a single film.  Film was a huge hit.  The movie industry rules on union members made him rich.

I’ve had a habit of many years standing of hanging around and listening to the bands talk after the show and load out are done.  Number that I’ve heard discussing if they can pay for McDonalds or get a loaf of bread and some cheese at the 7-11.  If I have the money, they eat.  There have probably been at least 20 maybe 100 times when the band could not make enough money to make it to the next show.  If I had it, they had the gas to get there with food.

Excellent female singer, poor turn out. She and her driver were discussing what they could do.  They had sold the albums in paper bags because they didn’t have money for jewel cases.  I told them that I was almost totally flat broke, but if they would drive me to a store to stock up on beans and tomato sauce, I could live on that and I would give them the rest of what I had.

6 months, maybe couple of years later, guy from a band came up to me after everyone had loaded out.  He said, “I guess you are xxxx.”  “Yes”  “Got something for you from a friend of ours that you got to LA.”  Gave me a sack with over 100 CDs in it.  Karma, sometimes it’s not a bitch.

Fortunately, I know enough people with “great ears” who keep me posted on what is new and good. Ah, music.

Comment #100: less is more  on  01/10  at  11:04 PM

By the way, enshrining bourgeois values like precious Individualism and Excellence (as opposed to - gasp! - mediocrity) is more conformist than Walmart.

Are you a music critic for MIM and/or a member of the “Socialist Realism” school of art/music? rolleyes

Comment #101: exholt  on  01/10  at  11:37 PM

mndean:

But think about it. By using a GPL app, you’re not only encouraging the writing of software where the authors are not compensated for their work, you’re taking money out of the hard-working pockets of American coders and insuring the collapse of one of our last viable industries.

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Comment #103: riyan  on  01/11  at  01:08 AM

BrianX,
If you’re not joking, please don’t talk out of your depth. The guys who make/sell Reason aren’t even American for one thing, and for another, I wrote GPL software for years alongside paid programming before burning out on commercial projects. Those commercial projects are now mostly done in India (or so I hear from ex-coworkers). There is no vibrant coding industry in America (at least not the well-paying stuff I was involved in), most is farmed out to other countries. I may do bugfixes on Audacity just to piss you off now.

Comment #104: mndean  on  01/11  at  02:08 AM
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