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How not to reply to an accusation you think is unfair

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penny So, last night on Formspring, someone asked me about the Penny Arcade controversy.  I like Penny Arcade, but I confess I don’t read it regularly, because my life as a gamer is a shadow existence mostly built around Rock Band and occasional forays into Mario.  So, I was unaware of the controversy, and had to be educated by Jesse.  (Thanks, Jesse!)  So, the timeline I’ve constructed is this.

1) Penny Arcade writes a comic where the joke is about contrasting the demands of a video game with the moral precepts of the real world.  The comic involved the line, “raped to sleep by the dickwolves”.  I personally found this joke hilarious, because I’ve played enough video games that I’ve also gone down the path of finding humor in the contrast between the game world and the real world.  For those who don’t get it, the humor comes from the fact that video games raise the stakes a lot of the time by having the hero do things like rescue slaves from hell, but the goals often undermine these stakes by having you only save, say, five slaves.  “Raped by dickwolves” didn’t bother me—-it’s obviously a play on the long history of imaginative tortures of hell that everyone from Dante to video game writers have come up with.

I did not think this was a “rape joke” in the classic sense of the term, which is a joke where the punch line expresses the idea that raping is awesome.  The joke of the comic was that the moral universes painted in video games are often horrific in a way that contrasts with the light-hearted nature of gaming.  That strikes me as a perfectly appropriate thing to make fun of, tame even. 

2) Someone at Shakesville takes offense.  I found the blog post an annoying rationalization for disliking humor in general, which the blogger admits she does.  I find the “but rape is real!” argument against jokes of this nature to be a disingenuous one.  Slavery is also real, as is murder and general violence.  But there’s no way that the blogger would have gotten mad about jokes in those veins, but a joke about a form of torture that is supposed to sound over the top and mystical got her into offended mode. 


I also didn’t like the post because I object to people who use survivors as a rhetorical device to shield their arguments from criticism.  I feel, as a rape survivor, way more dehumanized by this post that purports to speak for survivors than I ever could by the Penny Arcade comic.  I reject and resent the suggestion that having been sexually assaulted in my past makes me unable to see that this joke for what it was. I think this rhetorical device of casting survivors as a group of women too delicate to even understand context and meaning, while well-meaning, actually hurts rape survivors by reinforcing the erroneous notion that once a woman is raped, she’s forever ruined and broken.  I don’t like being used as a rhetorical weapon in a general rant against comedy.  I’m not saying all survivors would agree or disagree with me.  That’s my point.  I really dislike the dehumanizing way survivors are often lumped together as one big group that shares a single opinion or worldview that just happens to coincide with the one the blogger is arguing.

3) That said, the guys at Penny Arcade responded in officially the worst possible way to respond.  As Melissa correctly notes, they attacked strawmen, and this time they really did make light of rape.  Jokes where you condemn rape in a sardonic tone really do imply that rape isn’t a big deal.  In the time it took them to write the response, there were probably like 10 rapes in the U.S. alone.  The cartoon implied that rape is less common than it is, that rape culture isn’t real, and that the whole subject is beneath you.  This was tone deaf, sexist, and stupid.

Well, Amanda, you might be asking, what were these guys supposed to do?  That’s a good question.  In all honesty, I think they should have ignored it and the whole thing would have blown over.  I realize that’s really hard to do sometimes.  And sometimes addressing concerns is a better idea.  It really depends on the situation.  But in this case, the critic comes right out and says she objects in a very general way to comedy.  When you’re facing someone who condemns the entire genre you work in, I don’t really think there’s a possibility of communication there.  It’s like trying to argue the finer points of a rap song to someone who says hip hop isn’t music.  Explaining the joke isn’t going to work, either.  Trying to make jokes about the joke will fail you as well—-remember, your critic has made it clear that she finds comedy distasteful.

Turning around and committing exactly the offense you were unfairly accused of is exactly the stupidest thing you could have done.  To the guys at Penny Arcade, I would suggest that next time you want to run a comic like that, maybe email me or someone like me and ask if what you’re about to say is truly fucked up.  Looking at this from various angles, I feel like the best thing they could have done was ignore the whole thing.  I sympathize—-sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference between a situation where a response will be helpful from one where your critics have put you in a spot where there’s nothing you can really say or do.  But whatever you do, don’t then go do the very thing that you were accused of doing in the first place. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:04 AM • (305) Comments

I think the best thing they could have done was to highlight the cultural difference—the article clearly said it was anti-humor, and they obviously couldn’t make a living in that context.  So there’s a basic disconnect there, and that’s the end of any meaningful discussion.

Comment #1: Punditus Maximus  on  08/15  at  09:51 AM

I love the PA guys to death, but they are guys in the guyest sense of the term.  And they do get incredibly defensive when anyone discusses that fact.

Comment #2: Punditus Maximus  on  08/15  at  09:51 AM

I wouldn’t even have gone there, Punditus, because she built in her counter-argument to that, which is that she’s totally not someone who simply lacks a sense of humor, but it was beat out of her with rape jokes.  It wasn’t a coherent point—-after all, I don’t think rape is awesome, but I think I have a great sense of humor, as do most feminists I know—-and so really there’s nothing you can do with it.  I get why someone without a sense of humor might be defensive about it.  Sometimes there’s nothing you can do when someone’s sucked into a bout of hyper-defensiveness.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  09:58 AM

Which, of course, points to a reason I hate it when shit like this happens.  Because the end result is that the stereotype that you have to have a penis to be funny—-and that having a vagina prevents having a sense of humor—-is reinforced.  I know of plenty of men who don’t particularly have a good sense of humor.  Take many of our wingnut trolls, for instance—-they wouldn’t know a good time if it bit them on the ass in any form.  (Of course, you have many wingnuts who don’t oppose humor on principle, but who nonetheless aren’t very funny.  Many of them become “humor” writers.  It’s all very sad.)  But that doesn’t mean humorlessness is strictly a trait of the right; I’ve definitely encountered my fair share of dour liberals. 

Being humorless isn’t a bad thing as long as you are tolerant of the jokesters in the world.  But it’s certainly not a female trait or even a predominantly female trait.  Sure, most feminist bloggers you read aren’t hilarious, but most bloggers in general aren’t hilarious.  I’d actually say that I see as much cleverness and snark on good feminist blogs as good liberal blogs in general.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  10:06 AM

Yeah, well, the fact that they make their living off of humor gives them a de-escalation valve.  Since they can’t follow her advice in a general sense without, you know, not feeding their families, there’s an obvious gap there which can be left untouched.

But yeah, in a general sense, there’s a lot that’s not worth responding to.  It wasn’t just her, though—as their newspost makes clear, they got a lot of mail on the issue.  I have great suspicion of the ones that claim to be longtime readers, tho.

Comment #5: Punditus Maximus  on  08/15  at  10:22 AM

I think the best response would have been:

“It has come to our attention that the message of our previous strip was, perhaps, not as clear as it could have been.  We intended for the strip to convey that it is morally reprehensible to leave a person in a situation where they will be physically or sexually assaulted.  For more information, [links to domestic violence prevention, rape prevention for men, etc. sites]”

And left it at that.

Comment #6: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/15  at  10:26 AM

That’s probably for the best.  It’s a shame, really, because it’s a teeny bit dishonest.  The strip was perfectly clear.  This is always an ongoing battle for writers, especially in the age of the internet—-how do you deal with people who loudly, insistently complain when the problem is more their reading comprehension than your writing?  If you humbly take responsibility for not being clear, you’re kind of lying.  If you put it on them, no good can come of it, because they a) already have reading comprehension problems and b) they already think that’s your fault and not theirs.  Also, they’ve often made it clear up front that they’re easily offended and defensive, so even touching the truth that perhaps they just didn’t get it?  Not going to work.

With straight writing, this is less of an issue, but with humor, this is an ongoing problem.  I saw another example at Feministe, albeit one that wasn’t really poisoned with people taking offense.  Jill linked this hilarious McSweeney’s article and a bunch of the comments were in the “I don’t get it” genre.  Some of the commenters didn’t click the link but left a comment anyway—-never a wise choice, though I’ve done it—-but others simply didn’t get the cheeky humor of McSweeney’s.  Jill didn’t take it very seriously, which is wise.  Just because someone doesn’t have a sense of humor or a specific kind of sense of humor doesn’t mean they’re necessarily stupid or have nothing to contribute. They would do well to adopt the “if this isn’t about me, maybe I should just skip it and not comment” rule, but in the grand scheme of things, leaving, “I don’t get this” comments isn’t like evil.

But of course, no one (last I checked) was using “taking offense” as an excuse to hide their defensiveness about not getting the joke.  That always escalates things. 

I’m surprised that Penny Arcade doesn’t have this problem more often, albeit in less angry, controversial ways.  If you ever straddle two audiences, you’re going to run into this problem.  I have to believe they draw a lot of humorless readers because they’re a gaming blog on topic of being a comic.  I can totally see how a lot of gamers who don’t have a sense of humor would read PA because they think that’s just what you do, and often find themselves befuddled.  I would have thought the PA guys would have a lot of experience with brushing off people who don’t get it and will never get it.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  10:49 AM

Yes, Atheist, that would have been a good response; but knowing the Penny Arcade sense of humour, the temptation to end it with a character telling Shakesville to bite their shiny metal ass would have been overwhelming.

Comment #8: idiosynchronic  on  08/15  at  10:50 AM

The problem is that they have gender assumptions and they know it—and that the larger gamer community suffers terribly from the issue.

Comment #9: Punditus Maximus  on  08/15  at  10:51 AM

That said, the real problem with the response comic is that it isn’t funny.  I would much have preferred a discussion of the Dickwolves Local 15 and their labor concerns.

Comment #10: Punditus Maximus  on  08/15  at  10:54 AM

I barely noticed the comic in question when it went by, but when I read the response comic, I was like, “Whoa, was that a virtual head pat?”  And the more I thought about it (the response, not the original comic) the more I thought… I don’t see them posting condescending messages in response to reader feedback about a comic where the feedback would (probably) primarily be from men.

Once again, the coverup is worse than the crime.

Comment #11: SoRefined  on  08/15  at  11:10 AM

Exactly.  I can see why they don’t see the response as sexist, because they feel they’re responding to individuals for what they perceive as individual mistakes.  But if the critics were male, I think they’d probably have a different response than the head-patting condescension.  They’d probably be smarter about ignoring it.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  11:15 AM

I think this rhetorical device of casting survivors as a group of women too delicate to even understand context and meaning, while well-meaning, actually hurts rape survivors by reinforcing the erroneous notion that once a woman is raped, she’s forever ruined and broken.

YES. This is why I hate trigger warnings.

I always wonder why more people who are called out by feminists for making light of rape don’t just ignore it. What is it about that particular accusation that makes people constitutionally unable to just let it go and try not to do it again? They always, always dig the hole deeper. Every time.

Comment #13: m_leblanc  on  08/15  at  11:16 AM

And that, I’ll add, is where mansplaining gets you in trouble.  Resorting to a tone of “let the man tell you little girls about reality” isn’t going to win you any arguments.  It’s just going to piss off your opponents, especially since 95% of mansplaining is a situation where a man who knows less about the situation deigns to lecture a woman who knows more about it than he does.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  11:23 AM

I think an issue with your analysis is that you’re assuming they were responding to Shakesville in their comic. If that was the case, it would indeed be a straw man. I can’t imagine that they’d care enough to respond to someone who starts out by saying that they don’t have a sense of humor.

I was assuming they were responding to email sent by their readers, which makes it possibly less of a straw man - the issue is that we don’t know exactly what sort of email they were sent. I’d wager that some readers actually did make the argument that their comic was encouraging rape, though.

I thought Gabe’s blog post did a much better job, and they would have done better to make that the comic. I copied it below for reference.

“What surprised me most about some of the reactions to our Dickwolf joke was not that people were offended. But that this was the comic that offended them. In each case the emails I got started with something like “I’ve been a long time fan” or “Been reading the comic for years…” and then they go into how this particular comic really bothered them.

I just don’t understand that. Did the comics about bestiality, suicide, murder, pedophilia, and torture not bother them? Or how about the fruit fucker? I mean, we have a character who is a literal rapist. What comic strip have they been reading all these years?

For the most part I think that people are perfectly happy to laugh at offensive jokes until the joke offends them. Then it’s not funny anymore. There is no way we can know what each and every person who reads the comic has decided to find offensive.

In the end I just disagree with these people about what’s funny and that’s perfectly okay.”

Although I doubt it was specifically in response to Shakesville, it works perfectly well. The author saying that she like dark humor, but not dark humor that she personally is offended or triggered by, drives me up a wall with its hypocrisy. You can either reject all humor that anyone, not just yourself, might be triggered or offended by, or you can just avoid certain types and places of offensive humor but not others and accept that you, personally, don’t find it funny. And if you regularly read a comic like Penny Arcade, you may occasionally be offended.

Comment #15: UmaroVI  on  08/15  at  11:24 AM

m, I think it’s a combination of mansplaining and also the fear of being considered a rapist, or at least rape friendly.  The person who feels so accused likely thinks of rape as like the worst thing you could do and is also quite aware that it tends to go on all the time and that rapists don’t have a sign on their head.  So they just go into defensive mode.

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  11:25 AM

Amanda: For some reason, I can’t copy-paste your line (I’m borrowing a public computer, so presumably the admin did something dumb with it) about expecting that the PA guys would have more experience brushing off people who don’t get it, but I wanted to respond to that.

I think they do, in fact, have a lot of experience with brushing off people who just don’t get the jokes, but I also think the feminist criticisms of their work might cut them, or at least Tycho, a little deeper than the ones about how they suck at Halo or whatever. I don’t know if Tycho actually considers himself a feminist or not, but I do get the impression, from both the blog post accompanying the comic and his responses to that Nice Guy controversy a while back, that he at least sympathises with the feminist position. That doesn’t automatically mean he’s good at responding to criticism or good at being a feminist, but I do think it means that he’s more sensitive to criticism along those lines than he is when a bunch of idiot gamers call him a tasteless moron for disagreeing with them about the quality of their favourite game.

Ironically, I think that Gabe, by the very virtue of probably not caring as much as Tycho, probably had a better response, i.e., “Really? Of all the fucked up shit we put in our comic, THAT was what you found offensive?” It doesn’t further a dialogue or anything, but it’s does work pretty well as a dismissal of unfair criticism.

Comment #17: Tobasco da Gama  on  08/15  at  11:27 AM

They probably do have a lot of experience brushing off emails like “but that isn’t accurate about pokemon” and they probably have less experience with people sending emails that insist that their comic makes rape ok, insists that they promote rape culture and so on. I think someone insisting that you are responsible for rape is going to get your attention more than someone insisting your opinion of star wars sucks.

Comment #18: pharmakos  on  08/15  at  11:28 AM

@#12: I don’t think so. See http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/2/19/cyclical-argument-literal-strawman/ and the associated blog post for an example of a similarly condescending argument and response to a more gender-neutral argument. I think this one was done better, granted, but I don’t think that has anything to do with the actual argument in the comic and more to do with the art and setup.

Or for another example, the Strawberry Shortcake Incident.

Comment #19: UmaroVI  on  08/15  at  11:30 AM

Also, Jack Thompson.

Comment #20: UmaroVI  on  08/15  at  11:33 AM

Uma, that response doesn’t really have that mansplaining tone to it.  It’s the mansplaining that will fuck you every time, and telling a bunch of feminists that they don’t understand the issue of rape is a really bad example of mansplaining.

Comment #21: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  11:34 AM

did they really mansplain though?

panel 1 is this is the background to why this comic is being written

panel 2 is we aren’t ok with rape and think its bad

panel 3 is don’t rape anyone cause you think we said to

which is sarcastic (and the chances are aimed at emails) but I don’t think they are pretending to explain anything

Comment #22: pharmakos  on  08/15  at  11:44 AM

If “mansplaining” means “explaining something in a condescending manner to women,” then it is tautologically true that you can’t mansplain anything to men, yes. I think the level of condescension is similar.

Comment #23: UmaroVI  on  08/15  at  11:51 AM

The tone of the comic was “our female advisers are hysterical and we need to sit them down and explain rape to them”. Not smart! Very dumb! Particularly when you are not an activist blogger condescending to explain an issue to someone who is an activist blogger on that issue.

If someone condescendingly deemed go explain video games to them, they’d not like it, not one bit.

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  12:00 PM

I’m not disagreeing it was condescending (I do disagree that it was a response to Shakesville, rather than to reader email). I think the Strawman comic was equally condescending, since it’s tone was “our [mostly male] readers are idiots, and we need to sit them down and explain video game piracy and DRM to them.” And it did, in fact, piss a bunch of people off.

Comment #25: UmaroVI  on  08/15  at  12:07 PM

That was likely one of PAs best comic since it didn’t take a entire 800 word blog post to try to explain the joke.  But I stopped reading PA a while back just because the strip has never evolved.

Comment #26: Robert  on  08/15  at  12:30 PM

we need to sit them down and explain rape to them

when did they do that though? It really isn’t obvious to me where any plaining mans or ex got done.

There was nothing really objectionable in the first two panels and in the third I saw sarcasm about what some people (could have been anyone really, email people bloggers, discussion on the forum) thought the impact of the previous comic would be.

anyway I have to go cook something

Comment #27: pharmakos  on  08/15  at  12:35 PM

I actually thought the response comic was hilarious.  (Longtime reader of Pandagon, too!)  Penny Arcade was cribbing from the lines they use against people who think video games cause violence.  I disagree that they were saying rape isn’t a big deal.  I interpreted the comic as saying, “we shouldn’t need to say we hate rapists.  We think it’s silly to believe our approval or disapproval will change one rapist’s mind.  But if you want it, here it is.  Look at Gabe’s face, and how angry rape makes him.”

They’re not defensive about rape, they’re defensive about art and the idea that artists need to walk on eggshells for fear their audience might do something.  Defending video games from the same charge is about half of what they do.

Comment #28: JoeV  on  08/15  at  12:45 PM

Well, if you think it was equally condescending, I’m going to chalk that up to the larger belief that if you dish out condescension to men half as much, it’s twice as bad.  Aka, male privilege.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  12:46 PM

I think Joshua @17 is probably right.  Tycho is generally a pretty feminist guy, and by the standards of the gamer community he’s practically a saint when it comes to issues of gender and race.  Now the standards of the gamer community are a bit lower than that of some blogs, sure, but still, the guy is still on the side of angels in a rather harsh and sometimes belligerently ignorant community.  He was probably hurt to get so much really undeserved negative feedback for two reasons: first it really was undeserved this time, and second most of the time he should probably be given cookies and hugs from feminists.  Unfortunately almost none of us provide cookies and hugs.  Also unfortunately, the “Thanks for remembering women are people, what do you want, a cookie?” approach is most effective if you don’t freak out on your casual allies for random perceived transgressions.


The latest comic left a bad taste in my mouth, and was certainly not as clever as I’d expect them to be, which makes me agree with Josh that Tycho took the complaints a bit more personally than he normally would have.  Amanda’s response was pretty good, probably because she’s experienced both sexual assault and a flying monkey attack on the Edward’s campaign which makes her uniquely qualified to offer an opinion on this matter.

Comment #30: Kyso K  on  08/15  at  12:47 PM

@27

I’m pretty much with you about panel one.  Panel two, though, has “we hate rapers and all the rapes they do,” which isn’t necessarily offensive, but rapers instead of rapists is a bit…off.  They follow that up with “Seriously, though,” which by design implies that the above statement was not serious.  That was a bit offensive to me.  “Rapists are really the worst” in that context seems to translate to “Rapists really aren’t that bad.”  Even if you take it on its face (which the tone of the comic would discourage), that is a pretty mainsplainy statement.

The third panel is definitely the worst.  I see the “direct result” in that as sarcastically mansplaining that rape culture doesn’t and cannot exist.  If you set the bar for culpability at “direct,” then pretty much nothing in our current culture has any impact on rape at all.

Comment #31: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/15  at  12:50 PM

pharm, panel #2 was so dripping in sarcasm it gives you the impression that they think their critics are arguing in bad faith, which has the unfortunate implication—-at least, it leaves room for it—-that they don’t think the problem is really that bad.  That was dumb.  Their critics may have reading comprehension problems, but their concerns about rape and rape culture are sincere.  But they didn’t want to address the reading comprehension problems—-because they probably know from experience that’s a lost cause—-so instead they used sarcasm.  Plus, their implication that everyone already agrees rape is wrong is simply false.  The vast majority of rape in our culture is tacitly tolerated, and if victims complain, they are attacked.

They’re not defensive about rape, they’re defensive about art and the idea that artists need to walk on eggshells for fear their audience might do something.

I see what you’re saying, but I think you’re off.  After all, art can and often is used in the employ of promoting immoral ideas.  You can criticize the idea without even implicating the quality of the art.  If they’d written a comic that actually made light of rape—-which I think they unfortunately and unintentionally did in the response comic by downplaying how serious the problem is—-they would deserve this criticism.  But the first comic didn’t really make light of rape.  It made light of a common trope in video games.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  01:11 PM

Rapists are really the worst

I don’t think that’s tongue in cheek at all. People on the penny arcade forums talk like that, a lot. Maybe its a Seattle thing. If there was a discussion of the holocaust you would have people in social entropy (the main forum) saying Nazis really are the worst. Its like an acknowledgement that something is bad without the willingness to get emotionally up about it. Sometimes its an insult like “tube you are the worst” where tube is the name of someone.

Comment #33: pharmakos  on  08/15  at  01:13 PM

I think it was a poor response, and it wasn’t the first poor response they’ve made to feminist criticism.  Which really sucks, actually - I think on the spectrum of mainstream webcomics, Penny Arcade’s pretty far on the feminist-allied end - not as far as xkcd, but I can’t think of another (wildly popular) webcomic that I’d give that credit to.

(Obviously there are lots of less popular webcomics that are much more strongly, even centrally, feminist.  DAR, off the top of my head.)

Feminist guys tend to get just as defensive as non-feminist guys when accused of sexism.  I do it, and try my best to keep it in check because It’s Not About Me.  But I know from experience that that’s a hard thing to do, thanks to a combination of privilege and the natural tendency people have to get defensive anyway.  Like I said, it sucks that Gabe and Tycho aren’t better about handling feminist criticism.  And I don’t know how guys *get* better at that, except through personal epiphany.

Comment #34: Ferox  on  08/15  at  01:15 PM

But in this case, the critic comes right out and says she objects in a very general way to comedy.  When you’re facing someone who condemns the entire genre you work in, I don’t really think there’s a possibility of communication there.  It’s like trying to argue the finer points of a rap song to someone who says hip hop isn’t music.  Explaining the joke isn’t going to work, either.  Trying to make jokes about the joke will fail you as well—-remember, your critic has made it clear that she finds comedy distasteful.

Agreed - this is one of those times when silence is the best response. Life sucks in this way, but there’s simply no way to start a meaningful dialogue here.

I’m not even sure if there’s a good way to say “I/we here you”, e.g.: “I know some folks were offended, and they raise valid points.”

Comment #35: LongHairedWeirdo  on  08/15  at  01:16 PM

Kyso @30: Honestly, I think the experience of having seen and gotten over the epidemic of poor reading comprehension is what has mellowed me on this.  wink

Seriously, I think a lot of people would be a lot happier if they just blamed the schools when something like this happens and didn’t take it personally.  I enjoy making fun of the humorless feminists that freak out in the comments at Feministing whenever someone offends their anti-humor sensibilities and makes a joke, but I try not to take it personally and I try to pick my battles.  At the end of the day, it’s best to remember that people who really hate humor may have all sorts of problems that you’re not privy to.  Plus, a lot of them are really young and earnest and they’ll get over it one day, and cringe to think of what joy killers they used to be.

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  01:26 PM

DAR, of trans male chaserfail, takes feminist criticism approximately as well as any other webcomic.  That is to say, not well.

Comment #37: bomberE  on  08/15  at  01:31 PM

@#29: On the other hand, you (probably) don’t care too much about DRM or video game piracy, but you are a feminist. It’s a lot easier to see something as condescending when it’s condescending to you, rather than to some other people whose point of view you don’t understand.

Comment #38: UmaroVI  on  08/15  at  01:34 PM

I don’t think that’s tongue in cheek at all. People on the penny arcade forums talk like that, a lot. Maybe its a Seattle thing. If there was a discussion of the holocaust you would have people in social entropy (the main forum) saying Nazis really are the worst.

The difference is that society in general really doesn’t support Nazis, but society in general is tolerant of rapists.  That’s why the “rape culture” thing.  Sardonically implying that it’s obvious that everyone against rape is a way of denying rape culture.  It *isn’t* necessarily obvious that rape is universally considered bad when most rapes go unreported because the victims correctly assume that society will generally back the rapist.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  01:35 PM

Just had to say: OMG, I *LOVE* that McSweeney piece (comment #7)!

Reminded me of this comic: http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp07192010.shtml
And I can’t possibly imagine how many offended emails Randy Milholland must get for Something Positive…

Comment #40: CalliopeJane  on  08/15  at  01:42 PM

Well crud, Looks like I’ll have to type this twice.

It’s not clear what or who PA is responding do. Or if it is I haven’t seen where that was spelled out. All I could get from their site is that they got some emails.

If they are responding to the post at shakesville, or other criticism like it, then I think you’re right about how bad their response is.

If they are responding to a slew of emails that boil down to “Let me explain to you why rape is bad and therefore your comic is also bad.” Then I’m not bothered by the sarcasm.

Comment #41: Time123  on  08/15  at  01:50 PM

Since when is rape not universally a bad thing? Its illegal. Officially everyone is against it (with notable exceptions) and if someone decided to proudly declare he is a rapist, well bad things would probably happen to him.

I get where you are coming from with rape culture but that’s kind of the unofficial version of what things are ok and what thing aren’t. And some people are aware of this, feminists, mras and rapists. The rest of the people occupying the culture would think oh shit that’s bad if they thought about it but rape culture is background assumptions and usually nothing in the foreground that you actually see

in any case that post you quoted was for the benefit of atheist, a feminist.

Comment #42: pharmakos  on  08/15  at  01:50 PM

I barely noticed the comic in question when it went by, but when I read the response comic, I was like, “Whoa, was that a virtual head pat?” And the more I thought about it (the response, not the original comic) the more I thought… I don’t see them posting condescending messages in response to reader feedback about a comic where the feedback would (probably) primarily be from men.

Once again, the coverup is worse than the crime.

Did you just seriously call Penny Arcade misogynistic? That is so over the top I had to laugh a little.  They main writer (Tycho) is more or less nihilistic with a crass streak that seems to run in online comics.  He rarely gets involved in political matters whether it be electoral or legislative.  He represents an unrepentant centerist consumer view unswerving from his personal goals and beliefs.  To call them misogynistic is unfair, it would imply they had intent.  They’re more so clueless and indifferent.

Somebody attacked them on a serious topic and every time this happens they write a response post or strip declaring themselves comedians and whatever they say doesn’t matter in the grand scheme.  Which is fair if probably untrue.  I read the joke, I laughed, I moved on.  When I saw that some sort of controversy exploded they got upset because their crass humor wasn’t accepted.  They’re more petulant children than supporting rape culture. 

As much as I support Amanda I don’t like connecting dots when the dots don’t have intent to connect.  While it may be true that it unintentionally denounces the seriousness of rape their intent with the second post/strip is more so to point out their sense of humor and how unimportant one strip is in the grand scheme of fighting rape as a crime against humanity.  I think it inadvertently fails to support the anti-rape stance.  That though is another issue all together.

Comment #43: Xeranar  on  08/15  at  01:53 PM

See, Xer is a good example of lack of reading comprehension.  No one is accusing Penny Arcade of being misogynist.  We’re saying that they were unfairly accused, and they reacted poorly to the extent that they ended up doing the thing that they were accused of in the first place.  The point isn’t to accuse them of having hate for women!  The point is to use this as a teaching moment about picking your battles and knowing more about an issue before you wade in.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  01:57 PM

Did you just seriously call Penny Arcade misogynistic?

Uh, no, the post you quoted did not.  You’re being hyper-defensive of Penny Arcade, when I don’t think anyone in these forty posts has said anything more severe than that their reponse comic was tonedeaf and made light of rape in its condescending tone.

You might disagree with that criticism (I disagree with parts of it), but the hyper-defensiveness is definitely counter-productive to the discussion.

Comment #45: Ferox  on  08/15  at  01:58 PM

....an annoying rationalization for disliking humor in general, which the blogger admits she does.

But in this case, the critic comes right out and says she objects in a very general way to comedy.

Disliking HUMOR in general???  —-agog—-

I bet she’s a helluva date.

++++++++++++++++++++
Humor is tough.  I got a bad, and inexplicable, response to this joke:
Q: How do you know you have a good lawyer?
A: When he gets your sodomy charges reduced to “following too closely”.

I was fixed with a gimlet stare and informed “Child abuse is no joking matter.”
WTF?  Apparently this person did not know the many and varied legal definitions of “sodomy”.

Comment #46: Eric_RoM  on  08/15  at  02:01 PM

@43

They’re more petulant children than supporting rape culture.

Both/And?

Comment #47: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/15  at  02:01 PM

Since when is rape not universally a bad thing? Its illegal. Officially everyone is against it (with notable exceptions) and if someone decided to proudly declare he is a rapist, well bad things would probably happen to him.

But that’s the problem.  Saying that’s the end of the story and that it should be obvious is ignorant, and scolding someone from a position of ignorance when they have more knowledge than you is condescending, and dare I say mansplaining.  Saying, “Everyone agrees rape is bad,” is de facto denying of rape culture.  It is inadvertently suggesting that when a rape victim is shamed out of reporting to the crime or put on trial herself for her sluttiness that these are acceptable things.  It *is* the attitude that makes rape so common, because it allows people to let rapists off the hook while pretending that they’re against rape. 

A culture that was actually anti-rape wouldn’t just have laws on the books that are half-heartedly enforced when they’re enforced at all.  A culture that was actually anti-rape wouldn’t make excuses for why this rape wasn’t really a rape.

Comment #48: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  02:01 PM

You see the same problem with racism.  *Everyone* agrees racism is wrong, right?  Which is why racists basically create a tautology where their racism isn’t racism because racism is wrong and they don’t do wrong things.  You get that with rape.  “Everyone believes rape is wrong” is simply untrue in any real sense, and their claim that this is true is troubling.  I’m not asking them to be experts on feminist theory!  But I am suggesting that when you’re not the expert, jumping down the throat of people who know more than you about subject X is a really bad idea.  It’s also something that’s really common in our culture when men are speaking to women, because of the incorrect cultural assumption that men are smarter and know a lot more than women on basically every subject but tampon insertion.

Comment #49: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  02:06 PM

Everyone agrees that jumping out of the bushes with a gun and forcing a stranger to have sex with you is wrong.  Not everyone in our culture agrees that having sex with an unconscious woman at a party is wrong, or that ignoring requests to stop once sex is underway is wrong.

Rape is a huge problem, and it really is stupid to treat it like rape is universally abhorred in the United States.  Where I disagree with Amanda is on whether that was the intended message of the response comic, but it’s hard to see how that’s not that effective message to a female reader.  I’d argue tonedeaf rather than intentionally mansplainy, but in either case they definitely dropped the ball.

Comment #50: Ferox  on  08/15  at  02:10 PM

Amanda,
  It seems like you’re sure they’re responding to shakesville and not to random outraged emails. Is that an assumption or are you working from a response from them that I didn’t see? When i read their comic/blog rebuttal I assumed they were responding to “rape is bad and therefore can never be used in humor” emails.

Comment #51: Time123  on  08/15  at  02:10 PM

Everyone agrees rape/racism is bad and evil.

Everyone does not agree what those words mean. Amanda had a post up a while back about arguing from the center vs defining the boundary. I think this is sort of related.

Really bad is part of the definition. If the action/thought/words/situation isn’t really bad than for a lot of people it can’t be racism/sexual assault. It’s not acceptable to say “Yes I was a little bit racist the other day. But oh well, that happens sometimes.” Or “I got raped last night but oh well. She was really in the mood and we’d been so busy lately that didn’t want to turn her down when we did have a opportunity.”

Those just aren’t acceptable.

If you tell an actuarial that she has proposed a policy that has a disparate impact on Asians you will get a very different response than if you say she has proposed a racist policy.

Comment #52: Time123  on  08/15  at  02:22 PM

W00T! Another someone disagrees on the blogosphere kerfuffle!

Comment #53: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/15  at  02:23 PM

RE: 52

Once again conservatives prove how little they understand about economics.

Comment #54: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/15  at  02:28 PM

I think we have both views at the same time, official and unofficial. Before I ever read anything about feminism I walked around with the knowledge that rape was bad for when the topic of rape came up but I also had a set of assumptions that came from wherever that rape was funny, not a big deal and so on.

I can see why you think they are ignoring rape culture but I just don’t really think that was the intended meaning. I think the intended meaning was something along the lines of fuck you for accusing us of encouraging rape and there isn’t a lot of explanation in that. 

I’m not trying to minimize rape culture by the way. I would like it if our background assumptions matched up a bit better with what we are nominally in favor of.

Comment #55: pharmakos  on  08/15  at  02:32 PM

If you’re an adult and you’re still playing video games you’ve got bigger problems than a poor sense of humor.  Get a job.

It is their job.  They make a good living doing this somehow, and even get gamers to donate to their charity.  I don’t know how they did it either but you’re not going to get far suggesting Tycho and Gabe are stereotypical under-employed basement dwellers.

Comment #56: Kyso K  on  08/15  at  02:32 PM

Get a job.

And troll blogs during your lunch hour.

Comment #57: schism  on  08/15  at  02:33 PM

What is Time saying at #52? If the rapist/rape culture society thinks it’s not “really bad”, then it’s not rape? WTF?

Comment #58: quercus  on  08/15  at  02:34 PM

Ugh, I don’t read Shakesville anymore because they seem to misread media so bloody often. I do read Geek Feminism from time to time, though, and the same total misinterpretation was up there. Why? I mean, geeks, right? Should get it? I just kind of stared at the comic and read it over and over again, wondering if its meaning would somehow change before my eyes, and make the post make sense. It did not.

Sorry to hear that the Penny Arcade guys flubbed their response, but ugh, that criticism!

Lack of reading comprehension bugs me more than it probably should, but damn. Provided that the people who wrote those stupid essays had played enough video games that they should have understood the subject, then they should be seriously contrite, and maybe go back to subtext 101. If they didn’t have the context, fair enough, but then they really ought to be saying, “Oops. My mistake.”

Comment #59: Mandolin  on  08/15  at  02:37 PM

@59

More like:
If the rapist/rape culture society thinks it’s not “really bad” (or not bad enough), then the rapist/rape culture society treats it as though it’s not rape.

Comment #60: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/15  at  02:39 PM

“Ugh, I don’t read Shakesville anymore because they seem to misread media so bloody often.”

I should have inserted a “partially” in there, “partially because.” Just for factual accuracy, in case for some reason that should come up. Not that it matters, since it’s not that main subject of my comment.

Comment #61: Mandolin  on  08/15  at  02:39 PM

If the rapist/rape culture society thinks it’s not “really bad” (or not bad enough), then the rapist/rape culture society treats it as though it’s not rape.

Correct, that’s what I was trying to say. Same thing with racism.

Comment #62: Time123  on  08/15  at  02:45 PM

Amanda, I’m going to push back a tiny bit here.  Without totally allying myself to the substance of the Shakesville post you refer to, I am not sure there’s really anything wrong with the fundamental maneuver it is making.  It’s challenging the dominant narrative of what a “sense of humor” necessarily entails in this culture.  Put differently, if we accept what you say is true - that it simply isn’t the case that survivors have one monolithic reaction to anything, up to and including rape jokes - then I don’t see how it’s kosher to challenge this Shakesville poster on the “correctness” of her reaction to the comic.  it upset her; she said so.  In passing she made some claims that I would agree are overbroad, but I don’t think it’s necessary to then say she just must be unaware of context if she doesn’t find the comic funny.  It’s just that her context differs from yours.

I mean, personally, I don’t know that I care for the original joke.  Mind you, Penny Arcade is largely outside my frame of reference.  But I object strenuously to the idea that I should just accept, consequently, that I have no sense of humor, or, as you put it later in the comments, insufficient reading comprehension skills.

Comment #63: Michelle Dean  on  08/15  at  02:56 PM

“If you’re an adult and you’re still playing video games you’ve got bigger problems than a poor sense of humor.  Get a job.”

...how do you know that those who play video games don’t have jobs?  I won’t call myself a hardcore gamer by any means, but I do play games, and I’ve been employed for my whole adult life (and I’m 50).

I work with many people who love gaming too, and know many others who game and have jobs too.  (I would bet that the vast majority of adult gamers are employed.  Games and hardware are not cheap.)

Would it be okay if they played chess instead?  Or are all games of any sort offensive and indicative of a lack of maturity to you? 

What should people do with their free time, read the bible?  Or does having free time at all indicate you aren’t working hard enough for the Fatherland?...

Comment #64: MikeEss  on  08/15  at  02:56 PM

I havent read the comments yet, so forgive me if I am repeating something, but I dont see why they couldnt just explain it exactly the way that you do. It may not have been good enough for the blogger, but if someone was rubbed the wrong way or whatever they could have defended themselves without diminishing the existence of rape culture.

Comment #65: alysia  on  08/15  at  02:56 PM

You get that with rape.  “Everyone believes rape is wrong” is simply untrue in any real sense, and their claim that this is true is troubling.

I think I’d make the claim that the majority of people like to believe that they believe rape is bad while in reality they have a large set of beliefs about rape that they don’t delve into frequently. I think those become operative the moment a rape occurs and its not distant to them. Like my friend fred didn’t do it because she is a slut and so on.

Like I know a bunch of guys and they all said they thought domestic violence is wrong. As it so happened one of them was actually beating up his girlfriend. More than half of us wouldn’t have anything to do with him anymore but some people were still friendly with him.

Comment #66: pharmakos  on  08/15  at  02:59 PM

@63

Yeah, sorry it wasn’t clear to me what you meant. I guess I got confused cause it seemed like you were criticizing Amanda for one thing, and then you had this post basically restating the problem with rape culture.
Anyway does it really matter who PA was responding to? They put their feet in their mouths in a pretty big way regardless.
In summary, what alysia said.

Comment #67: quercus  on  08/15  at  03:02 PM

@39…

I think society is as tolerant of Naziism at least as much as rape-tolerance or racism, so long as the label is not used or disavowed.  Society is tolerant of these things because it gets free labor from the perpetrative mentalities and cheaper labor from their victims.

Comment #68: shah8  on  08/15  at  03:03 PM

@67

Seems to me that’s why she said “in any <i>real<> way”

Comment #69: quercus  on  08/15  at  03:05 PM

shah8 the point was about the use about the phrase the worst

like, shah8

you are the worst

Comment #70: pharmakos  on  08/15  at  03:08 PM

I think the original comic could have been done without the rape reference and still preserved the interesting moral juxtaposition. “Every night our cages are lowered into vats of boiling insert-nasty-fluid-here,” or other over the top punishments. And, yes, slavery and murder exist in the world most gamers inhabit, but unlike rape, not at the same level of incidence. Unlike slavery and murder, rape is often denied as having been perpetrated even after the victims come forward, and more often than slavery and murder, many people will try to turn the crime back around on the victim saying how they deserved it. Furthermore, I don’t have an ongoing fear that I will be enslaved or murdered (although I might be, who knows what the future holds) but I do have a worry that rape could happen. (No, I don’t think a PA comic is leading directly to rape, but I think it’s a symptom of a world that refuses to take rape victims at their word or that treats the concept of rape as lulzy. In that sense, the followup comic seems to have the cause-and-effect misplaced and it was very much a straw man argument.)

I’m not freaked out about all survivors, since I do think some folks like dark humour to deal with the dark stuff that happened in their life, but if SOME survivors say they had a problem with rape being referenced this way, I do think it behooves folks to think a little and not dismiss them immediately as humourless scolds as so frequently happens. So, yes, I was waaay more disappointed in the follow-up comic than in the original comic. The follow-up seemed to say to me, “You don’t deserve to have your reaction.”

Having met Tycho on a number of occasions, I do want to say that his sense of humor and mine are aligned much of the time. I am a long time PA reader. BUT none of us are immune from the weird stuff our society has us swimming in. It’s not like he gets a permanent “Not Misogynist” sticker to wear affixed to his stripey shirt.  I don’t get a sticker either.  Nobody is immune and everybody screws up now and then. The reaction of the PA gang was definitely problematic, however you feel about the original comic.

(As an aside: I want to back up Kyso that making blanket statements about being an adult and playing video games is really stupid. The average gamer’s age is about 35. Saying it about Gabe and Tycho is REALLY ignorant since not only do they support themselves, their families, their employees, they have also started two ginormous and influential conventions and support a great charity that gives back to the community. There is nothing wrong with playing video games as an adult, any more than playing football or croquet as an adult is wrong.)

Comment #71: PixelFish  on  08/15  at  03:10 PM

“If the rapist/rape culture society thinks it’s not “really bad” (or not bad enough), then the rapist/rape culture society treats it as though it’s not rape. “

Yes, it’s got to be a real napolization, or it doesn’t count.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=napoli

Napoli (also: Napolize)(v. trans.) -
“To brutalize and rape, sodomize as bad as you can possibly make it, a young, religious virgin woman who was saving herself for marriage.”

“A real-life description to me would be a rape victim, brutally raped, savaged. The girl was a virgin. She was religious. She planned on saving her virginity until she was married. She was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated. I mean, that girl could be so messed up, physically and psychologically, that carrying that child could very well threaten her life.”

Comment #72: Dr. Psycho  on  08/15  at  03:11 PM

@68 Anyway does it really matter who PA was responding to?

It does to me I guess. I like them. I like their jokes, I like their charity and some of the time I enjoy their blog. If they are responding like they did to Shakesville’s complaint then I’ll think less of them. Amanda’s post makes the most sense if that’s exactly what they are doing.

But, if their are responding to criticism that they endorse rape or belittle rape than I think their response is less bad.

I can’t really see how their response is ever going to be good. I’m just trying to peg it on the suckage continuum.

Also, not trying to attack Amanda in any of my comments so far.

Comment #73: Time123  on  08/15  at  03:16 PM

Phamakos, I was contradicting Amanda‘s distinction of the values of Naziism and rape culture, mostly because I think that functionally, they are the same.  Thus *the worst* in cynical mode as applied by Amanda is ironic in that she is sardonically implying the obvious that everyone is against the Nazi program such that she is unintentionally denying the seriousness of right wing populist violence.  I don’t think she needs to read more Orcinus, but I just thought it’s ironic how easy it is for us to get hung up on labels and mythologies of names and terms like Nazi and rape.

Comment #74: shah8  on  08/15  at  03:23 PM

Eh. The rape wolves sound like a faint shadow of the far superior rape apes.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2554200/6/HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Comment #75: Shaenon  on  08/15  at  03:31 PM

Hooray for sanity! I’m one of those huge fans of Penny Arcade. I got to PAX in Seattle every year and I have all their books. But I’m with Amanda on this. The best thing to do was simply ignore the mess.

Comment #76: Cola82  on  08/15  at  03:35 PM

A little something to keep in mind about Tycho; this is kind of his hat. He creates responses that are not always appropriate or well thought out. For example…

A while back, they released their own Penny Arcade game. The first chapter was released at $20. More than a few people balked at paying that much to play a game full of insider humour and one that lasted only six hours. I paid anyway, but it wasn’t an easy thing to do.

Anyhow, not long after the release of their game Braid was released. To much higher acclaim than the PA game and yet people balked at the $15 price tag. So Tycho writes up a newspost lambasting people who didn’t feel comfortable with the price. (The price ‘sweet spot’ would be no more than $10. No matter how unrealistic that might be.)

I wrung four and a half hours out of the finished product, coming into contact with genuinely huge concepts that hum with stradavarian fullness. You’re mad about five dollars? What? Shove your five dollars up your stupid ass.

It wouldn’t be to difficult to figure out that some of the criticism at their own game got to him. It also doesn’t help that their planned four episode experience was canceled after only two because of massively poor sales.

To say that Tycho is a bit reactionary would be a serious understatement. Leaving well enough alone is not something they’re known for doing.

Comment #77: Santa Claustrophobia  on  08/15  at  03:47 PM

I don’t know if I’ve mentioned this in Pandagon comments, but I have a hypothesis about where the notion of the “humorless liberal” or “humorless feminist” comes from:
A person attempts to make a joke. He says “women have pussies and bleed from them!” He says “gay men put their pee-pees in each other’s poo-poo holes!” And the liberal or feminist waits patiently, without laughing, for the punchline. And the would-be jokester says “that is the punchline, you liberals/feinists just have no sense of humor.” No, we just require jokes to actually be, y’know, jokes.

I did not think this was a “rape joke” in the classic sense of the term, which is a joke where the punch line expresses the idea that raping is awesome.

That’s how I feel about criticism of this* as a rape joke insensitive to survivors etc. etc.

*YouTube link

What is it about that particular accusation that makes people constitutionally unable to just let it go and try not to do it again?
Comment 13—m_leblanc

If you earnestly disagree that you did anything wrong, and particularly if the complaint was vague about precisely what you did that was wrong, you’re going to be unwilling or unable to not do it again. If someone takes offense at something and I find their offense arbitrary and unreasonable, I’m going to say “these people are ridiculous, screw them” rather than “I inadvertantly ofended these people, I should be more careful”; if someone takes offence at something so innocuous I don’t even know what they’re talking about, I’m not likely to care to chase it down, much less do anything about it.

Comment #78: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/15  at  03:53 PM

Hi PixelFish,

” And, yes, slavery and murder exist in the world most gamers inhabit, but unlike rape, not at the same level of incidence. Unlike slavery and murder, rape is often denied as having been perpetrated even after the victims come forward, and more often than slavery and murder, many people will try to turn the crime back around on the victim saying how they deserved it.”

I don’t know. I think slavery is often minimized, actually, since people have relatively little idea of its incidence in the modern world (particularly in the first world). People seem to think of it as one of those things that happened in The Past.

From a Very Brief googling:

Forced labor occurs in at least 90 cities across the United States, the researchers found, and at any given time, 10,000 or more people are forced to toil in sweat shops, clean homes, labor on farms, or work as prostitutes or strippers.

“The most shocking aspect of this report is that modern-day slavery still exists,” said Laurel Fletcher, a researcher at the Human Rights Center and professor at UC Berkeley’s law school. “Slavery is a problem the public thinks we solved long ago, but, in fact, it’s alive and well. It has simply taken on a new form.”...

According to Bales, “The lack of public awareness of slavery in America makes this report very important. People are literally living next door to slaves without knowing it.”

I’m not willing to make sweeping statements about the relative awfulness of rape and slavery. We could probably go back and forth on whether or not one is worse than the other, based on statistical regularity versus intensity, based on race-based versus sex-based crimes, based on the fact that sexual assault is frequently part of slavery, based on average long-term consequences… and so on.

And I don’t mean to imply that you personally aren’t aware of the prevalence of modern day slavery—maybe you’ve already weighed all that in your head. But I want to poke at your argument that you fear rape, but not murder or enslavement, just a little. You may fear rape more, which would make sense, as I think I recall you are a white woman from a first world country? (If you’re not, I’m sorry.) But if you were from a class that was frequently enslaved, you might see things differently—and I’m not sure why we should give what affects the class we both belong to priority over what affects classes we don’t.

Anyway, I don’t want to sound self-righteous or hostile or anything… I’m just not quite convinced by your argument in this context.

For me, the line is clearly between *referencing* and *minimizing*. I think it’s just fine to reference rape—particularly because rape is one of those things that crops up in video games, and is sometimes problematically dealt with; do we think all those kidnapped and captive damsels who need rescuing are being treated like Ravana treated Sita? Minimizing would not be okay, because minimizing is directly reinforcing existing narratives that already minimize rape. I think “rape culture relies on the minimizing of rape; therefore minimizing rape serves rape culture” has a heft that “rape culture relies on the minimizing of rape; therefore mentioning rape serves rape culture” just doesn’t, as an argument.

Comment #79: Mandolin  on  08/15  at  04:05 PM

I had a problem with this comic.  I play a fair bit of WoW myself so I’m familiar with the moral disconnect this strip is highlighting.  There are a lot really horrible things that happen to the characters in WoW, so why did PA focus on rape?  There were a zillion other gruesome fates they could have chosen. 

Also, you’ll notice that the slave who isn’t being saved is a man.  How do you think the comic would have been received if the slave were a woman who was afraid of being raped?  But hey, sexually assaulting men = comedy gold, amirite?

On the whole, I think was humor fail on the part of PA.

Comment #80: dillene  on  08/15  at  04:07 PM

If you’re an adult and you’re still playing video games you’ve got bigger problems than a poor sense of humor.  Get a job.

Oh shut up or stay on topic.

Comment #81: Cola82  on  08/15  at  04:10 PM

Discussion here has been fascinating (although I think Amanda had it right), but -

I am the only one who is now itching to draw a pack of ravenous(?) dickwolves? Like some delightfully horrible boschian dystopia?

Comment #82: the duck-billed placelot  on  08/15  at  04:28 PM

I had a problem with this comic.  I play a fair bit of WoW myself so I’m familiar with the moral disconnect this strip is highlighting.  There are a lot really horrible things that happen to the characters in WoW, so why did PA focus on rape?  There were a zillion other gruesome fates they could have chosen.

Also, you’ll notice that the slave who isn’t being saved is a man.  How do you think the comic would have been received if the slave were a woman who was afraid of being raped?  But hey, sexually assaulting men = comedy gold, amirite?

On the whole, I think was humor fail on the part of PA.

It also fails since Sluggy Freelance beat them to the punch with their Years of Yarncraft spoof and the puppy slaughtering. And given the size of the internets, probably a bunch of other comics did it first, too.

As far as why they chose rape? And the rape of a man at that? TVTropes has a bunch of entries about that.

PA is usually pretty funny, but that doesn’t mean it’s usually pretty clever.

Comment #83: Santa Claustrophobia  on  08/15  at  04:29 PM

“If you’re an adult and you’re still playing video games you’ve got bigger problems than a poor sense of humor.  Get a job.”

If you’re an adult and you still watch romantic comedies, professional sports, reality television, action movies, or any other form vapid entertainment that adults enjoy, you have no fucking business picking on gamers. 

Mad Men is only on once a week, and not everyone wants to curl up with Chomsky at the end of a hard day.  That means there’s time to fill on evenings and weekends.  For example: I enjoy gaming; you enjoy being a dick on the internet.

Comment #84: Cola82  on  08/15  at  04:32 PM

Dillene, I think they focused on rape because it allowed them to use the word dickwolves, which is actually the punch line of that panel.

Comment #85: mblile  on  08/15  at  04:35 PM

Also, JohnMcKay@52, Gabe drives a Mercedes.  Which his stupid little game comic paid for.

Comment #86: mblile  on  08/15  at  04:37 PM

@87
I didn’t know they were doing that well… no wonder they don’t understand why people might balk at the price of something.

Back on topic, I wanna highlight part of what Mandolin said:

For me, the line is clearly between *referencing* and *minimizing*. I think it’s just fine to reference rape—particularly because rape is one of those things that crops up in video games, and is sometimes problematically dealt with; do we think all those kidnapped and captive damsels who need rescuing are being treated like Ravana treated Sita? Minimizing would not be okay, because minimizing is directly reinforcing existing narratives that already minimize rape. I think “rape culture relies on the minimizing of rape; therefore minimizing rape serves rape culture” has a heft that “rape culture relies on the minimizing of rape; therefore mentioning rape serves rape culture” just doesn’t, as an argument.

Comment #87: quercus  on  08/15  at  04:47 PM

@81: “Focus on rape” I think implies a level of intention that probably wasn’t there.  The last year or so I’ve noticed that jokes involving rape have been popping up more and more often in Guy Humor places, especially video-game related ones like Penny Arcade or Seanbaby.  They’re similar to this joke in execution in that the rape part is a smaller part of a larger joke and careful to acknowledge that Rape Is Bad Mmmkay?  My guess is that these are highly sanitized versions of much worse attitudes that fester in game chats and that “raped by dickwolves” didn’t ring any louder warning bells in their minds than “dipped in flaming dragon urine” would have.  A sensitive mind can find lots to object to in a joke about dickwolves, but remember these two are thought-leaders for a largely insensitive audience.  They’re probably doing some good just by reinforcing Rape is Bad, Mmmkay?  It would be difficult to think of how you’d start a feminist-style conversation on rape awareness in the gaming community, and left to their own devices the 13 year olds on Halo are just going to come up with infinite prison rape jokes.  Do the kids still play Halo?

I’ll refer back to Tycho himself.  Also, their Internet Anonymous Dickwad Theory.  I’m not saying this perfectly excuses a rape joke, but if feminists wanted to have a conversation with gamers, we’d have to at least acknowledge what they’re working with, and pick our battles appropriately as well.  Tycho is a smart guy who can be held to a higher standard, but in fairness we should recognize that he’s usually pretty good at policing himself and that PA is a positive influence on gaming culture.  I think he’s earned at least the benefit of the doubt.

Comment #88: Kyso K  on  08/15  at  04:49 PM

Eh. The rape wolves sound like a faint shadow of the far superior rape apes.

What about the Rapier Ape?

and now, the Narrative of the Kerfuffle, a comedy of errors in one act:

Blogger: I will completely miss the point and be insulting about it.
PA: OH YEAH? I’LL SHOW YOU COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT AND BEING INSULTING ABOUT IT!
Everyone Else: Goddamnit.
Blogosphere: *moves on after another 2 minute hate, with no one’s views or opinions changing on anything, and no one actually learning anything*

Comment #89: karpad  on  08/15  at  04:56 PM

Mandolin: You make some very excellent points, and you are right that I may have minimized slavery as it exists in the modern first world. This is particularly egregrious of me, since slavery in the first world is often connected to sex trafficking. (Although not always.) And I should perhaps not have pitted it against rape as something that is less likely to happen. It is true that I have privilege in that area, and may not be seeing the full impact to other societal groups.

I think you and I are circling a particular set of points which we likely both agree on, and which I think your final paragraph crystalises: One, referencing and minimizing rape are two different things. Two, minimizing rape contributes to rape culture in a way that referencing rape does not. In fact, referencing rape can be in direct opposition to minimizing rape. I am not against referencing rape. (Indeed I have done so in writing and art I have made before, although not for comedic effect.) I am against the minimization. This is why the second PA strip bothers me far more than the first one.

Comment #90: PixelFish  on  08/15  at  04:56 PM

“I think you and I are circling a particular set of points which we likely both agree on, and which I think your final paragraph crystalises: One, referencing and minimizing rape are two different things. Two, minimizing rape contributes to rape culture in a way that referencing rape does not. In fact, referencing rape can be in direct opposition to minimizing rape. I am not against referencing rape. (Indeed I have done so in writing and art I have made before, although not for comedic effect.) I am against the minimization. This is why the second PA strip bothers me far more than the first one.”

Yeah, I’m right there with you. :D

Comment #91: Mandolin  on  08/15  at  05:05 PM

@89:  a couple of things.  I don’t find your first paragraph especially comforting.  On the contrary, a rise in the number of rape jokes in “Guy Humor places” sounds backlashy to me, and doesn’t make it okay for PA to have contributed to it.  Let’s not encourage the combination of rape and humor in any context, okay?

As I said, there were many, many other horrible fates they could have chosen to focus on.  You ever been to the Scholomance in WoW and talked to the ghosts outside of it?  Some nasty shit went down there.  And here’s the thing:  I don’t lie awake at night worried that a pack of reanimated, fetid corpses is going to flay my flesh from my bones while a necromancer uses shadow magic to keep me from dying. I do, however, worry about being raped.  So I ask again:  why did they choose that?  At the very least it shows extraordinary tone-deafness on their part.

Also, you speak of feminists and gamers as if they were two wholly separate communities.  53% of online gamers are female, etc., etc., etc.  Please don’t use the word “gamer” when what you really mean is “asshole”.

Comment #92: dillene  on  08/15  at  05:13 PM

Wow! Someone at Shakesville took offense to someone’s joke? Let me mark this date on my calendar.

Comment #93: pablo  on  08/15  at  05:15 PM

Thanks for writing this, Amanda!  I had the exact same reaction - wasn’t bothered at all by the original comic, was actually hugely offended by the response comic.

Comment #94: nico  on  08/15  at  05:29 PM

Excellent, pablo! @94

The real question is: would it be possible to craft a joke that didn’t upset somebody over there?

Comment #95: Eric_RoM  on  08/15  at  05:39 PM

Seconding Michelle Dean #64. I love how this has turned into “those bad humorless feminists at Shakesville” and “us hip culturally aware feminists at pandagon.” Now this is a debate which is definitely going to serve feminist causes and weaken the rape culture which surrounds us, no doubt at all.

Comment #96: CassieC  on  08/15  at  05:40 PM

Pablo and Eric_RoM: case in point. Because the great sky cat forbid we look for humor beyond making fun of anyone who is not at the bottom of the food chain - that would just be too hard! All humor relies on making fun of poor folks, immigrants, non-white people, women, trans people, gay people, disabled people and combinations thereof! That’s just how humor works! That’s why Charlie Chaplin was such a great comic: he always took the side of the rich and powerful to make fun of the poor and oppressed! So did Buster Keaton and Laurel and Hardy! That’s how funny stuff is made: making fun of people who are not cis white het abled men!

Thanks guys. You may not be as progressive as you think, and as a woman, I’m quite sure you are NOT on my side.

Comment #97: CassieC  on  08/15  at  05:47 PM

Oddly enough, the more about this I read, the more sympathetic I am to Shakesville (or whoever’s) POV.  Rape survivors are not a monolith, fair enough; no one person/blog should presume to speak for them all.

But jokes involving rape-as-torture, especially coming from gamer dudes that are worshipped by other gamer dudes, a group that historically has not been good about talking about women as more than meat? Yeah, that’s just got a real bad smell to it. It smacks of self-congratulatory “edginess” and the casual privilege of people who are generally never going to have to deal with rape or fears of it. It does piss me off, and I don’t think I lack a sense of humor.

Shakesville is an easy target, because they trigger-warn everything, and they call stuff out that other people don’t think are that big a deal. But they take issues of privilege seriously and Melissa, in particular, has posted extensively about her reasons for their safe-space setup; it is not a reflexive or unthinking stance, but an intelligent and compassionate one.

Comment #98: emjaybee  on  08/15  at  05:48 PM

I dunno, i think reinforcing the “humorless feminist” stereotype—- which I think is a major cause of “I’m not a feminist but…” statements—- does rather more damage than a joke that uses the awfulness of rape as part of its premise.

Comment #99: quercus  on  08/15  at  05:48 PM

Their response comic did sort of rub me the wrong way, but I at read it as (at least) sincerely anti-rape. I mean, at least they superficially directed it at rapists and only obliquely at (straw) feminists. Of course, that defense amounts to “well, they could have reacted with *less* grace.”

I have to agree that this is a good example of where the best reply is no reply.

Comment #100: Maple  on  08/15  at  05:51 PM

@quercus: yes, because tittering along with the cool boys, going along with all the crap and sucking it up and staying quiet so that one can fit in and be one of the few girls considered acceptable enough to be partly human, is definitely going to convince everyone that they are really feminists deep down. It’s a flawless plan, really.

Shutting up about hurtful behavior is the best way to ensure its permanence. Welcome to complicity camp, buddy.

Comment #101: CassieC  on  08/15  at  05:55 PM

I’m not saying anyone/everyone has to think the original strip was funny btw. I do think getting publicly outraged about it does no one any good but does do a little bit of harm.

The follow up was nasty as hell, to be clear.

Comment #102: quercus  on  08/15  at  05:58 PM

CassieC-As a gay guy(i guess cis is in the eye of the beholder), thank you for feeling my pain for me and working to ensure a world where I will never be offended by anything. BUT I do find the dangerous antics of Buster Keaton to be kind of triggery.

Comment #103: pablo  on  08/15  at  06:16 PM

Yep, Cassie. Everyone who disagrees with you just wants to be a cool girl. We never sincerely defend beliefs outside the mainstream, ever, and it’s impossible that we think crappy readings of texts are annoying for their own sake.

Comment #104: Mandolin  on  08/15  at  06:20 PM

@103:  sorry, publicly objecting to something you perceive to be a rape joke is more harmful than rolling with it and implying consent by your silence?  WTF?  Did this site just get hacked by 4chan?

Comment #105: dillene  on  08/15  at  06:22 PM

And clearly there’s no middle ground between laughing along and ZOMG OUTRAGE. Un-possible.

Comment #106: quercus  on  08/15  at  06:23 PM

CassieC@102:
It’s a bit offensive to imply that any woman with a different sense of humor than you is just faking it to seem cool to the guys.

Comment #107: nico  on  08/15  at  06:25 PM

@93

1.  In any context?  Good luck with that standard.  It’s already being done, far less sensitively if you can imagine, in game chats all the time.  I assume you game, so you must know what I’m talking about, unless that 53% girl gamers statistic is the one that is mostly things like Farmville, where women can enjoy the games without the crap.  Now, I’ve known a few people who, after spending arguably too much time playing games like Halo or FFXI, had their tolerance for sexism and homophobia and racism increase dramatically just because the baseline on some of those servers is so damn low.  It only takes a couple of angry kids who think they’re funny to start that race to the bottom.  If guys like Tycho can use their influence to keep the rape jokes, for lack of a better word, tasteful, well then I won’t give them too much crap for setting a good (?) example.  It’s a balancing act between relevancy, taste, sensitivity, and humor, and mistakes will be made, but ignoring the casual attitude towards rape that is already present on too many servers will not make it go away, and will continue to keep women from enjoying games to their fullest.  It would be hard to talk about the problem effectively if we clutch our pearls at the slightest provocation.

2.  You worry about getting raped, but by dickwolves?  Those can’t hurt you any more than reanimated corpse or a necromancer.  The last comic was pretty tone-deaf, sure.  But as some people have pointed out, Tycho occasionally does that, and hopefully in the future he’ll take a deep breath and sleep on it before writing the rebuttal comic. 

3.  Yeah, there are female gamers and feminist gamers, so sure, I should have said asshole instead.  But they’ve clearly got a ways to go before things are really equal online.  The controversy over the RealID thing is a nice recent example.  Women would have an extra layer of caution about gaming under their real names because in addition to the worries that guys have, like identity theft, they also have to worry about that one crazy guy coming to their house to rape them.  And while you have numbers on your side, the angry white guy culture still seems to dominate, enough that <a >this poster’s</a> concerns are all still valid, yet many would have preferred to dismiss her.

I don’t feel OK about policing Tycho’s joke too harshly, because it was pretty tame and I think that, used properly, humor will be a better way for getting that particular community to talk about things, and change their attitude, than sending them links to the Feminism101 blog.  I don’t think that changing attitudes about women’s issues in the gaming culture is something we can do entirely on our terms, otherwise a 53% female crowd would have made more progress just by being there.  And once again, I really think the PA guys have earned the benefit of the doubt on this one.  I trust them to know their audience and use their influence appropriately.  Except for when Tycho throws a snit fit, then you just got to back off the guy for a few days.

Comment #108: Kyso K  on  08/15  at  06:29 PM

Hey has anyone asked Dick Wolf(producer of TV’s Law & Order franchise)how he feels about this? If anyone has a reason to be offended, it’s him.

Comment #109: pablo  on  08/15  at  06:32 PM

I’m a gamer, and as such I’m really freaking tired of hearing the word raped thrown about in gaming (and I do online MMOs so I hear it A LOT). So to see it in this PA comic it just wasn’t funny.  And really, I have to say I don’t know what you find funny in it either.  Sure the repeatable questing thing has amused in the past (as others have pointed out it has been made fun of by others) so they’re not really breaking new ground.  They’re just throwing in rape as a NEW! EXCITING! TWIST!  Yawn.

Comment #110: Vail  on  08/15  at  06:35 PM

@106: If what you’re objecting to isn’t a rape joke, then yes. Saying that mentioning a thing always promotes it is just illogical. It’s like saying “The Producers” supports Nazism. That’s really the only thing I disagree with you about though.

Comment #111: quercus  on  08/15  at  06:36 PM

Which is to say I’m not trying to antagonize anyone much less try to convince them they had to find the original strip funny.

Comment #112: quercus  on  08/15  at  06:43 PM

#93 dilline “Let’s not encourage the combination of rape and humor in any context, okay? “

This is nonsense.  Part of making sexual assault and abuse something we can discuss in the public forum is accepting that some of that conversation will be humorous. There is no event or act so sacred or terrible that it is above comedy. I’m not saying all rape jokes are great; the large majority ranges from quite vile to cliched but benign (like the first PA cartoon.) It’s tempting to toss the lot but by removing any and all humor we are abandoning one of our best weapons against the the massive blimp that is rape culture.

Comment #113: scrumby  on  08/15  at  07:14 PM

I think this rhetorical device of casting survivors as a group of women too delicate to even understand context and meaning, while well-meaning, actually hurts rape survivors by reinforcing the erroneous notion that once a woman is raped, she’s forever ruined and broken.

This, a million times this.

I am not a woman, but I am a survivor of sexual abuse, specifically incest when I was very young at the hands of an older brother.  I’m not interested in debating what the worst type of sexual assault there is, because I can only speak to my own experience.  Being a male victim carries a different sort of stigma, as does being a victim of incest.  I don’t have the exact figures in front of me, but I believe roughly 80% of male child molesters were molested themselves.  That said, a lot of people get that figure confused, and believe that 80% of male victims of child molestation grow up to be molesters themselves.  Not even close.  The vast majority of male survivors of sexual assault do not go on to become sexual offenders themselves.  That those who are offenders were frequently once victims does not indicate that those who are victims are likely to become offenders.  It’s one of the biggest misconceptions out there about male victims of childhood sexual molestation.

I have never harmed a child, nor has the thought of committing that sort of evil ever crossed my mind.  Quite the contrary, I become nauseous everytime I see a news story about a child being sexually abused, and I wanted to pummel the shit out of Bill O’Reilly when he cruelly suggested that Shawn Hornbeck had fun while being repeatedly raped by Michael Devlin during the four years he spent in that monster’s captivity.  The story got more news coverage here, as the crimes took place in the St. Louis suburbs, and O’Reilly’s comments were made just prior to a public appearance he was scheduled to make in St. Louis at a fundraiser for the It Happened To Alexa Foundation, a rape survivors’ advocacy organization.

In any case, there’s a lot of stereotyping that goes on about what sort of people rape survivors, child molestation survivors, and incest survivors are.  While my experience isn’t something that I broadcast to everyone I meet, I’ve reached a point in my life where I am no longer afraid to talk about it to those I consider close friends.  I can be open about it here and elsewhere in the blogosphere because I am relative anonymous in forums such as this.  It wasn’t until I had a bit of a breakdown in my freshman year of college that I was willing to discuss it with anyone at all.

Most of my fear and insecurity stemmed from negative stereotypes I perceived towards male abuse survivors and incest survivors in particular.  Though I am not presently nor have I ever been homosexual, I spent many years afraid that if my experience was ever discovered by my peers, that I would be perceived as gay.  And yes, I admit that my fear was partially rooted in my own homobigotry at the time (1980s and early 1990s), something I am not proud of, but recognize was a part of my youth.  While I don’t wish to make excuses for my own wrong-headed beliefs about homosexuality as a teenager, I grew up in a relatively conservative Catholic family in a relatively conservative city, attending a conservative Catholic boys high school.  The notion of tolerance and acceptance of homosexuals was non-existent in my world before I went away to college; not only was homosexuality cruelly ridiculed, anyone who dared to call out the bigotry was immediately branded a closet homosexual themselves, no matter how absurd the allegation was.

—-CONT’D.—-

Comment #114: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  07:46 PM

@43

To clarify, no. I did not just call PA misogynistic.

I found *one* strip patronizing. I haven’t cast PA out of Google Reader in a huff or anything.

If you were commenting on my line about the coverup being worse than the crime, I would say that generally, I find non-apology apologies more irritating than whatever the initial faux pas was. This is true (for me) regardless of whether the issue has anything to do with women/feminism, etc.

Comment #115: SoRefined  on  08/15  at  07:46 PM

—-CONT’D.—-

Backstory out of the way, I got a painful lesson about societal stigmas attached to experiences like mine when I started opening up about my traumatic experience to people other than my therapist.  The biggest thing I noticed was the manner in which some friends would walk on eggshells when even slightly humorous comments were made that had any connection whatsoever to experiences such as mine.  And while I appreciate concern for my feelings, I sometimes want to tell people, “I’m not some joyless broken person incapable of laughing about anything.”  It’s taken me awhile to transition from living life in which I have perceived myself as a victim into living life as someone who sees himself as a survior, and it’s a journey I’ll be on for the rest of my life.  While the intentions are usually benevolent, I don’t particularly like being viewed as an object of pity because of what happened to me; I prefer it when people who know my story can look at me as a person who turned out alright in spite of my childhood trauma.  If they pity me, they are assuming that I am constantly being tortured by the pain I experienced more than 20 years ago, that I am “broken”.  I am not broken.  Truthfully, I don’t even think about it very much anymore, except when the topic or related topics come up in conversation.  It isn’t denial so much as the realization that what happened happened, and spending all of my mental energy on trying to figure out the why of it is a painfully futile exercise.  My past is certainly part of who I am, and there’s absolutely nothing I or anybody else can do to change that past.  But I absolutely refuse to allow what happened to me to condemn me to a joyless and melancholy existence, or to allow it to be a handicap that prevents me from living my life to the fullest.  I appreciate my friends who are aware of my past who treat me no different than they would had I grown up without that trauma, because they seem to get that behaving differently around me only reinforces the feelings of being stigmatized and being forced to always be seen as a “broken” human being.

Anyway, regarding the topic, I’m in full agreement that too much offense was taken towards the initial comic, but the PA guys didn’t help their case with their response to the criticism.  Smartest thing would have been to be mindful of the criticism, but to not turn it into a battle.  I don’t think they owed any apologies after the first strip, but in dealing with the criticism by issuing a condescending pseudo-apology, they actually wound up looking like the assholes they were accussed of being.  Had they just let it go, I think they would have walked away from the incident unscathed, and most people would been pretty sympathetic to them; the Shakesville author would have been seen as overreacting to the first comic strip, and that would have been the end of it.

Comment #116: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  07:46 PM

CassieC, if you had one fucking clue about the breadth of sodomy laws, I could take you seriously.  But since you do not, you’re another humorless buzzkill.  Boo fucking hoo.

Comment #117: Eric_RoM  on  08/15  at  08:19 PM

One follow-up point…

I am fully aware that there is absolutely no connection whatsoever between homosexuality and pedophilia.  In fact, pedophiles are overwhelmingly heterosexual as a rule.

That I once felt that my own sexual abuse at the hands of a male relative would lead to me being perceived as gay was my own wrong-headed thinking on the topic.  The person who molested me is not homosexual, nor have I ever known any homosexuals who have molested children (not to say that there are no such people, but there certainly is no direct linkage between homosexuality and pedophilia).  I do have two gay friends who were themselves molested, however.  Neither one grew up to become a child molester.

Anyway, in recent years, the Roman Catholic Church hasn’t been particularly subtle about attempting to suggest that their pedophile problem is really just a homosexual problem.  I find this tactic absolutely repugnant, and I think they are using one atrocity (the presence of numerous pedophile priests, and the attempt to cover-up the problem) to further the cause of another atrocity (promoting homobigotry by suggesting that most pedophile priests are gay, a patently false allegation).

That said, having grown up in a conservative Catholic household, I was not immune to this garbage, and as a teenager, I bought into the false linkage between homosexuality and pedophilia.  I have since learned how utterly wrong I was for having believed that evil bullshit.  And while I’m not usually mistaken for a gay man, on the infrequent occasions in which I have been, I usually laugh about it and explain that I am not.  The last time this has happened was at last year’s PRIDE parade, and the guy who asked responded to my denial by saying, “well that’s too bad,” and I replied by chuckling and telling him that I was flattered.

Comment #118: DTGslu2K  on  08/15  at  08:20 PM

Thanks for writing this, Amanda, especially the part about sexual assault survivors not being a monolith. I also find the lumping together of all of our experiences to make a rhetorical point dehumanizing. I stopped reading Shakesville on a regular basis a while ago, but I actually skimmed through it that day and saw the kerfuffle unfold. Their original post was so off it almost seemed completely clueless. I’m not a gamer, so a lot of PA references go over my head and so I don’t read it regularly. But this strip was pretty clear. Their original blog response was perfectly fine (they are the It’s Not For You guys after all). The follow up comic is obnoxious and tone-deaf, but I can see why they’d feel defensive. It really would’ve been so much better had they just left it after the blog post.

Comment #119: elena  on  08/15  at  09:31 PM

The initial joke is offensive in being painfully trite, adolescent shock humor. Amanda’s still consuming such humor in her 30s is a bit disappointing.

Comment #120: wapsie  on  08/15  at  09:45 PM

Put differently, if we accept what you say is true - that it simply isn’t the case that survivors have one monolithic reaction to anything, up to and including rape jokes - then I don’t see how it’s kosher to challenge this Shakesville poster on the “correctness” of her reaction to the comic.

The problem is that her reaction is rooted—-by her own admission—-in her lacking of a sense of humor.  I didn’t even get if she was a survivor, and wouldn’t be surprised if she’s not.  My experience is that most people who have these over-the-top “survivors are eggshells” reactions often aren’t survivors, which is probably why they don’t see the problem with that stereotype. 

She reacted the way she did because she didn’t get it.  I don’t think that’s a crime.  In some cases, it’s not even a matter of general lack of reading comprehension, but again by her own admission, a general loathing of comedy.  Which I suspect she rationalizes by using outrage over even the possibility of rape jokes, which in turn is way more offensive to me than simply being like, “Hey, funny doesn’t do it for me.” 

I think in your case it’s a little different.  PA isn’t everyone’s brand of humor.  But I got the joke.  If they’d said “beaten by dickwolves”, no one would care.  And that doesn’t mean that we think assault isn’t a big deal.  The joke doesn’t work unless the tortures they suffer are actually torture.

Comment #121: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  09:48 PM

Then again, she’s responding to an existing controversy, and she doesn’t go to PA much. So there’s that. “dickwolves” has a certain dumb charm. Casually flinging the shock-word “rape” around is just annoying.

Comment #122: wapsie  on  08/15  at  09:52 PM

but if SOME survivors say they had a problem with rape being referenced this way, I do think it behooves folks to think a little and not dismiss them immediately as humourless scolds as so frequently happens.

I see what you’re saying, but I also think it’s wise to not center everything about being a survivor (or simply being offended on behalf what you believe survivors feel). I honestly think some people just flip out over certain words, and it’s not rational, and they don’t have much of a sense of humor.  And everything they tack on to that to rationalize it is in itself offensive.  I think people who balk at the word “rape” or even “abortion” maybe just balk at loaded words.  It would be nicer if they admitted that instead of creating elaborate rationalizations for why it’s okay to use slavery and beating as a joke, but not mythical forms of rape.

Comment #123: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  09:53 PM

For me, the line is clearly between *referencing* and *minimizing*.

Quoted for truth.  I think that’s exactly what is the difference between comic #1 and comic #2, though I really do think #2 was not intended to minimize.

Comment #124: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  09:57 PM

Seconding Michelle Dean #64. I love how this has turned into “those bad humorless feminists at Shakesville” and “us hip culturally aware feminists at pandagon.” Now this is a debate which is definitely going to serve feminist causes and weaken the rape culture which surrounds us, no doubt at all.

Sorry if that hurts your feelings, but I think it’s really unfair to use something that actually happened to me and to many women as a weapon to beat some dudes with against our wills.  I wasn’t raped so that someone could use my supposed delicacy as a wall to hide behind so they can take offense.  I think that contributing to the narrative that rape victims are broken is, in fact, damaging and contributes to rape culture in direct, significant ways that this cartoon did not.  (For instance, if a victim isn’t a complete mess after the fact, the rape is excused.)

Comment #125: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  10:00 PM

wapsie, are you just reading the cartoon wrong to get on my nerves, or do you sincerely not get that the joke isn’t just a random shock joke, but is referencing a specific trope in video games?

It’s in the same vein as the jokes we used to make about how poorly Toad in Mario Kart would fare in the real world.  But I guess I’m not a “grown-up” (read: boring) enough to realize that I should not only cease to have silly fun, but pretend I never did.

Comment #126: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/15  at  10:06 PM

The question here I think is if a reference to rape as being a bad no-good horrible thing is minimizing of the problem that not everybody really thinks of rape as being a bad no-good horrible thing.

Some people might say yes, some people might say no. I don’t think it’s minimization myself. And I don’t think the 2nd comic was trying to be pro-rape or anti-feminist in the slightest. I take it as aimed at all the people who laugh at all the other horribly disturbing things in PA but read one thing in exactly the wrong manner and thought OMG YOU ARE HORRIBLE.

If you’re not reading the blog entry along with the comic, there’s no way you can follow along with basically any strip they do. That’s just the way they work. Some people love it, other people hate it. But again, ti’s what they do.

FWIW the subject did come up (rape that is) in a gaming forum that I frequent, and to my pleasant surprise, the real rape minimization was kept to a minimum.

Comment #127: Karmakin  on  08/15  at  10:47 PM

But I guess I’m not a “grown-up” (read: boring) enough to realize that I should not only cease to have silly fun, but pretend I never did.

You’re allowed to watch Charlie Rose and chuckle, mildly, at the wry observations of his guests.

Twirling the sticks while playing Rock Band is strictly forbidden.  No stick-twirling.

Comment #128: Ferox  on  08/15  at  10:52 PM

A little something to keep in mind about Tycho; this is kind of his hat. He creates responses that are not always appropriate or well thought out.
Comment #78: Santa Claustrophobia on 08/15 at 02:47 PM

And several others that basically say this is just Tycho and the way he is, e.g.:

“he at least sympathises with the feminist position”

“he’s practically a saint”

“to call them misogynistic is unfair, it would imply they had intent.  They’re more so clueless and indifferent.”

“if feminists wanted to have a conversation with gamers, we’d have to at least acknowledge what they’re working with, and pick our battles appropriately as well”

“If guys like Tycho can use their influence to keep the rape jokes, for lack of a better word, tasteful, well then I won’t give them too much crap for setting a good (?) example.”

This is all admitting he’s fucking privileged. 

It sounds like making excuses that it’s okay for him to keep his privilege.

Why?

Comment #129: oldfeminist  on  08/15  at  11:47 PM

As usual, Shakesville ==> puzzled head-scratching. Of course being raped is horrible torture: the joke only works if what the slave is suffering is horrible torture, because the humor lies in the contrast between the slave’s suffering and the hero’s reaction to it. The joke isn’t about rape: it’s about… oh, geez, never mind: if you’re still offended, how can anyone explain humor to you?

Comment #130: felagund  on  08/15  at  11:53 PM

This is all admitting he’s fucking privileged.

It sounds like making excuses that it’s okay for him to keep his privilege.

Why?

His website, his rules?

Comment #131: Santa Claustrophobia  on  08/16  at  12:22 AM

His website, his rules?
Comment #133: Santa Claustrophobia on 08/15 at 11:22 PM

Buh? 

If we all followed this rule there would be no discussion anywhere so long as someone used hir own website to opinionate. 

I’m not saying we have the right to make Tycho do what we want, but we certainly have the right ask him to stop being blindly privileged, whether it’s “realistic” or not.

Comment #132: oldfeminist  on  08/16  at  12:37 AM

This is all admitting he’s fucking privileged.
It sounds like making excuses that it’s okay for him to keep his privilege.
Why?

Wait, is there a way to strip someone of their privilege? Look, I’m the first person to say that social privilege, in all its forms, is damaging, but people have every right to it. It’s also not something, even if you legally took that right away (not sure how you would do that, since it’s socially created and enforced), that someone can just stop having. Tycho will always be a white dude, and he will always be thusly privileged. All that anyone is saying is that, hey, he’s shown some awareness of his privilege in the past and we should keep that in mind.

I listened to their podcast when they were still doing it, and I’m not sure if any of you all remember, but there was an episode where Gabe was freaking out at the name of the site “Feministing” and Tycho was clearly not sharing his amusement. I don’t know it for a fact, but since I was still reading Kotaku at the time (and they LOVE a feminist hate-on-video-games) I’m guessing he wasn’t at the site because of some new controversy.

That isn’t to say Tycho is above reproach. Far from it. I think this blog post and its comments section prove that. This isn’t a conversation about who gets to say what, but about what you shouldn’t say if you want to be seen in another way, and Mike and Jerry could take a few notes.

Let me say it for the record: I’m no fan of privilege, but you can’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. People still have value even if they have faults.

Comment #133: Cola82  on  08/16  at  12:38 AM

“I don’t get it” as a form of rhetorical justification of your intellectual or moral superiority does not work in a culture where the onus for learning is on the student, not the teacher.

Comment #134: scratchy888  on  08/16  at  12:40 AM

Also, for the record, many of the commenters don’t seem to realize that Mike and Jerry are NOT literally represented by their comic strip counterparts. They don’t even physically resemble them. And if you’d ever been to a Q&A;session with them, you’d know they sound nothing like their alter-egos either. There’s a lot of character humor in the strip, and although I didn’t like the “response” comic, it was done in the voices of their characters.

We should stop confusing them.

Comment #135: Cola82  on  08/16  at  12:41 AM

They’re not defensive about rape, they’re defensive about art

And of course, state’s rights.

Comment #136: Dan  on  08/16  at  12:54 AM

Look, I’m the first person to say that social privilege, in all its forms, is damaging, but people have every right to it.

And we have every right to object to it, even if the person exhibiting it is a genuinely “nice guy” (in the non-TM sense).

Do you think not calling someone out on privilege will make them notice it?

Comment #137: oldfeminist  on  08/16  at  01:04 AM

I’m not saying we have the right to make Tycho do what we want, but we certainly have the right ask him to stop being blindly privileged, whether it’s “realistic” or not.

But that’s the thing. He doesn’t have to listen or acquiesce. They’ve been doing that style of humour for over a decade and it still boggles their minds a bit when some random comic gets highlighted as being offensive or crude or whatever.

Gabe mentioned it specifically on Friday. They have a character called the Fruit Fucker. They practically devoted their second game to it. And that never seemed to generate this kind of response.

I don’t know how you’d get anybody to stop being blindly privileged about anything, but starting the conversation with something like ‘I don’t get the joke and the reference is offensive’, to somebody who has been shown to be particularly opinionated isn’t likely to have a satisfactory result. Especially if they have editorial control over a website or newspaper or TV station or whatever.

Comment #138: Santa Claustrophobia  on  08/16  at  01:13 AM

As for myself I guess this is a tricky subject in that the poster on Shakes really does have a point in that you really can’t throw around rape for comedy purposes the way you would murder or even torture (although torture’s already a fair ways down the road) but I think when you go too far with that you ironically end up in a place that bears way too much resemblance to conservative hypocrites who will loudly proclaim that rape is the worstest most terrible inhuman thing but has an infinite number of custom-tailored apologia for why any particular instance of rape isn’t that terrible inhuman thing that they were talking about.

I think I’d make the claim that the majority of people like to believe that they believe rape is bad while in reality they have a large set of beliefs about rape that they don’t delve into frequently. I think those become operative the moment a rape occurs and its not distant to them. Like my friend fred didn’t do it because she is a slut and so on.

This claim is actually completely in agreement with the claim you were responding to and is pretty much at the core of what is fucked up about the second PA comic.

Comment #139: Dan  on  08/16  at  01:25 AM

They have a character called the Fruit Fucker. They practically devoted their second game to it. And that never seemed to generate this kind of response.

Why would I care if someone fucks fruit?  I’m not familiar enough with the comic to know if it’s sentient fruit, but if it’s not, what’s the big deal?

And if it is, it’s privileged.  Because the comic writers are probably NEVER in a position to truly fear rape, and even the most privileged women still are.

The comment in Shakesville is kind of beside the point.  There were multiple retorts here basically saying, it’s not intentionally sexist because he doesn’t know what he’s doing so lay off. 

My question was, why lay off? 

You don’t seem to have an answer beyond you can’t make him be nice.  His website, his rules.

So what?

I don’t comment based on whom I can control.  If the president of the US does something fucked up, I feel totally free to say so, despite my approximately zero power in adjusting his attitude.  Maybe if millions of others share my opinion, and enough of us say so, something will change.

And maybe that’s the POV of Shakesville.  If enough people read what they say and agree, then maybe it will affect the comic writers.

Not even necessarily these comic writers, but some others down the line, until eventually either Penny Arcade will follow suit, or it will be next to B.C. and Cathy in the “no longer relevant and unfortunately out of touch” pile.

Comment #140: oldfeminist  on  08/16  at  01:26 AM

I think an issue with your analysis is that you’re assuming they were responding to Shakesville in their comic.

A quick google on “raped to sleep by dickwolves” suggest a large number of the posts are referencing Shakesville - essentially all criticisms are “Here’s what they say there - me too!!”.

Comment #141: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/16  at  01:35 AM

Never mind.  That will teach me not to post when lack of sleep is making me dizzy.

“Raped to sleep by the dickwolves” produces massively more hits.  It would probably also make some band a great deal of publicity if they used it as an album title.

Comment #142: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/16  at  02:00 AM

If your an adult, which I know is a stretch here, and you’re still a gamer (love that, we’ve got handles MAN) than you’ve got bigger problems than a warped sense of humor.

Dude, we realise you are really REALLY fucking stupid, but try not to advertise it so much, m’kay?

  1.  U.S. computer and video game software sales grew 22.9 percent in 2008 to $11.7 billion – more than quadrupling industry software sales since 1996.

  2. Sixty-eight percent of American households play computer or video games.

  3. The average game player is 35 years old and has been playing games for 12 years.

  4. The average age of the most frequent game purchaser is 39 years old.

  5. Forty percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (34 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (18 percent).

  6. In 2009, 25 percent of Americans over the age of 50 play video games, an increase from nine percent in 1999.

By contrast, when Hollywood made over 10 billion in 2009, this was regarded as a very good year.

You’re in the position of some idiot chortling that anyone over the age of 18 who went to see Lord of the Rings was a loser.

Comment #143: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/16  at  02:09 AM

If you’re an adult and you’re still playing video games you’ve got bigger problems than a poor sense of humor.  Get a job.

I’m 46 years old and my job is making video games.

Do I have a problem?

Comment #144: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  08/16  at  02:38 AM

Mr. McKay hasn’t noticed that most of the people who go on to make money in the gaming industry started as (and usually still are) players and fans, has he?

I’m not much of a gamer, but my husband is. I fail to notice any significant problem he has, being married with kids, quite gainfully employed, and generally being an interesting, well-rounded human being.

Comment #145: Tapetum  on  08/16  at  02:41 AM

I’d like to confirm Phoenician’s numbers. All the marketing data I have access to indicates an aging customer base, whose spending on games and platforms increases with age. And this is not just in lifestyle games either (fitness games and the like, though this is a huge market, still to be fully-tapped) but in traditional genres too.

Comment #146: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  08/16  at  02:44 AM

@Lee Brimmicombe-Wood

But I am sure that you can see JohMckay’s point that you would be better at your job (and more grown-up and everything!) if you never played videogames.

Producing video games or literature associated with the industry is entirely different than actually playing video games.

This is why the best novelists have never read a book, the best fashion designers walk around naked all the time themselves, the best teachers never learned anything, and the best advertisers have never purchased or tried any products.

This is, coincidentally, why JohnMckay is best qualified to comment on all of our thoughts: he doesn’t personally engage in thinking.

Comment #147: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/16  at  03:22 AM

Yes, Atheist. If only I gave up gaming I’d be a better game designer.

Still, it’s funny how many grown-ups make up a great proportion of the audience. I mean, it makes sense, them being the ones with the credit cards and disposable income and all. But still, if I read John McKay correctly, it’s all supposed to be kiddywinks and faggot-baiting teen douches, isn’t it? So why doesn’t reality match his prejudices?

Comment #148: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  08/16  at  03:47 AM

@Lee

So why doesn’t reality match his prejudices?

Maybe because it isn’t 1975?  I mean, “we’ve got handles MAN” certainly seems a bit confused about the decade. 

This could be a total coincidence, but my guess is that he is the asshole formerly known as knuterockne and thus, also using a “handle.”

Comment #149: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/16  at  05:26 AM

Ah, those football references…

Comment #150: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  08/16  at  05:38 AM

While I basically agree with Amanda about the Shakesville poster misreading the original comic, part of the humor of the original comic does come from the idea that male prison rape is funny. (reference here all those jokes about some deserving white-collar criminal getting a large cellmate named “Bubba”, nudge-nudge, wink-wink)

No that’s not the *main* joke in the comic, but it’s part of it. Whether the PA authors intended to or not, they drew from that cultural tradition - the association between prison rape and teh lolz sets up the reader’s brain to be amused at the over-the-top nature of “dickwolves” as a monster name.

Their response indicates that they characterize the backlash as thinking they were making a typical frat-boyish rape joke, and like Amanda, I don’t think they were. They were however making a prisoner-rape joke.

They needed to be sent links not to Feminism 101, but to spr.org.

Comment #151: Daniel Martin  on  08/16  at  06:37 AM

I’d love to hear what John Mckay thinks is a proper hobby for adults. Do enlighten us, will you?

Comment #152: Scott  on  08/16  at  08:36 AM

wapsie, are you just reading the cartoon wrong to get on my nerves, or do you sincerely not get that the joke isn’t just a random shock joke, but is referencing a specific trope in video games?

Sure, and that trope is fair game for criticism. It also carries over from a similar trope in science fiction/fantasy where rape has become something of a cliche for authors to suggest that bad things happen in the setting.

I’m very uncomfortable with the notion that people don’t just disagree on a particular point of criticism but are actively hurting the cause when they do so. But I don’t find PA to be funny (their delivery always seems forced) or offensive.

Comment #153: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  09:18 AM

@155: Quiet contemplation of the Bible and the collected works of Glenn Beck, no doubt.

Comment #154: quercus  on  08/16  at  09:58 AM

As a gamer this debate boils down to this:  I hear rape jokes or the rape word thrown around all the time when playing online.  This has made the word rape like nails on a chalk board for me.  Rape was just thrown in for SHOCK! HORROR! in the PA comic.  It didn’t make the joke better, it just made it annoying.  Really I get enough substandard rape jokes while gaming and I actually pay (god help me) for that “pleasure.”  Its like they threw in a Chuck Norris joke trying to make their comic “edgy.”  Then there is all the extra baggage that the word rape has.  It takes a lot of talent to do a rape joke without coming off like male asshats.  They didn’t make it.

Comment #155: Vail  on  08/16  at  10:02 AM

“This is all admitting he’s fucking privileged.
It sounds like making excuses that it’s okay for him to keep his privilege.
Why?”

because deliberately misrepresenting what McEwan wrote, lying that she called herself humorless, and making digs about her, personally, is much easier for fauxgressives.

Comment #156: Gypsy Lee  on  08/16  at  10:02 AM

Ugh—so very late to this discussion. I apologize for necro-ing a few things.

1) Trigger warnings: I think the problem with online discussions is that we don’t have any context about what’s happening in someone else’s life at the moment. And if you’re trying to build a community, you should have some respect for people. As such, Trigger Warnings are a good idea. I’ve been a rough-and-tumble regular in the online feminist community, but maybe last week I was raped. Someone else may have been raped years ago and moved well on and doesn’t get upset by graphic images or descriptions of violence or sexual violence, but for me, still trying to figure out what the shit happened to me and how I’m going to get my life back to where it was, suddenly they’re very necessary. In six months? I might be able to dive back in and get back to where I was. But a Trigger Warning is not for All Women Everywhere Who Have Ever Been Raped. It’s for women who Need Trigger Warnings. That’s a very important difference.

2) Adults shouldn’t play videogames. OK, but you have to stop watching TV, reading books, and going to movies and promise that you, too, will spend all waking hours in serious contemplation of your solemn duties as an adult. Next….

3) The Original Joke: I read it, got it, and was mostly ok with the dickwolves joke because the use of rape as a signifier was a bit of a poke at the underlying themes of rape culture itself. It is unfortunate that Gabe and Tycho go to that well a lot. My biggest problem with it wasn’t the joke itself, but the knowledge that Gabe and Tycho’s hooting dickhole hordes that make up their fanbase—guys who routinely do make light of rape (omg, playing Call of Duty last week with Kevin—I totally raped him!), who frequently do not understand sarcastic humor, who have a Pavlovian defense mechanism any time they hear anything regarding a feminist, much less a feminist trying to critique their beloved video games (not that I know anything about this), and basically belong to the brand of privileged dipshit who believes that Racism is only when someone is lynched (and without a lot of that going on right now, racism must be over), that Sexism is only when you jump out of the bushes and rape a virgin (and since they haven’t done that, they are obviously not sexist), etc. A lot of humor is, sadly, audience. I will reel off horribly racist or sexist things to my close friends who know I’m being sarcastic and who will get the joke. But I don’t try to open up that particular brand of humor among an unknown audience, even if the audience has “a good sense of humor,” that doesn’t mean they have an Intelligent Sense of Humor.

4) The response. It came off as very patronizing and obnoxious, pretty much exactly what Amanda said—the worst possible way to respond to someone who was (let’s face it) likely trolling for page hits. It may indeed be that “long time readers” finally had their camel back broken by the straw that was the dickwolves line, but I doubt it. It may be that Tycho thinks of himself as feminist, or at least an ally, and getting Shakesville up in his grill hurt him deeply, I think we’re giving him a bit too much credit. When I first started reading PA years ago, I was pleasantly surprised at what I saw as a pro-feminist tone to a lot of the comics. But that that tone has disappeared into pretty generic bro-man frat-boy humor where women are seen as worthless suckers who should be grateful to have a man around at all. I scrolled through for the last FOUR YEARS and couldn’t find an objectively pro-feminist comic in the lot, and found a whole lot of dick/rape jokes and the standard fare about how awesome vaginas are because you can fuck them. These guys are in it to make money and they are writing for their audience. If their audience wants dumb bro-man humor, that’s what they’re going to write. They shouldn’t stoop to trying to defend it because it makes them look less like clueless privileged guys and more like outright assholes.

Comment #157: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/16  at  10:26 AM

I read the reply cartoon and don’t really see the problem.  To me, it read as a sarcastic retort in the following vein.  An internet cartoon is NOT going to inspire people to go out and rape.  Anyone who thinks this is an idiot.  The sarcasm comes in because the reply cartoon is a snarky “don’t try this at home kids” warning to readers delivered as if a cartoon could actually inspire rape.  But in fact, since a cartoon cannot inspire rape, the “warning” not to try this at home reads as mockery of the prig who made the initial complaint.  The use of the term ‘raper’ instead of ‘rapist’ in the second frame signals the snark.

Or at least that’s how it struck me.  It would be like the creators of Grand Theft Auto doing a PSA in which they advised players not to go out and actually shoot cops.  It would be total sarcasm aimed at people like Jack Thompson.

If you’re an adult and you’re still playing video games you’ve got bigger problems than a poor sense of humor.  Get a job.

Yeah, because it makes much more sense to sit on my couch guzzling watery beer and consuming vast quantities of chips while watching football or America’s Next Top Window Washer.  Oh yeah, so much more serious than playing a few matches of Modern Warfare 2 with my friends.  Yes, we must all sit still and be passively entertained.  There shall be no interaction with other people in a medium designed for it.  That’s just not what SERIOUS adults do.

Whatever.

Comment #158: Richard Goblin  on  08/16  at  10:45 AM

@161: No one thinks that a cartoon, game, or movie alone is going to inspire someone to rape. What is argued is that oppressive humor tends to lower the bar culturally in regards to rape and harassment. I’ll liberally make the argument that rape humor in gaming culture contributes to sexual and anti-gay harassment in those communities.

Comment #159: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  10:52 AM

I loved my visits with my maternal grandparents as a kid because they were gamers. As soon as the dinner dishes were done, the cards came out and we spent the rest of the evening at rummy, canasta, or bridge, or the Scrabble and Trivial Pursuit boards came out.

My paternal grandmother, alas, was a baptist who hated drink because you would become a drunkard, and hated cards because you would become a gambler.

Comment #160: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  10:56 AM

There were multiple retorts here basically saying, it’s not intentionally sexist because he doesn’t know what he’s doing so lay off.

My question was, why lay off?
Comment 142—oldfeminist

I maintain—privilegedly, no doubt, but not intentionally concern-trollishly—that there’s a difference between people who say/do sexist things because they’re clueless and people who say/do sexist things because they either hate women or think women are inferior to <strike>people</strike> men.

Neither should be lain off, but there’s no reason the first reaction to people not clearly in the second category shouldn’t be “you fucked up, here’s why you fucked up, now please don’t do it again.” Or shun them, if you can live with that. Ideally someone will make it clear to them what they did wrong and why, but even if not a genuinely clueless person is unlikely to do any worse than remain clueless.

When things are explained and they come back with a fake, sarcastic apology, or a mansplanation of why they’re such big feminists and lighten up, can’t you take a joke (not unlike this comment, perhaps), or any other indication that they are in the second group, that’s when you get delenda est on their asses.

Dude, we realise you are really REALLY fucking stupid, but try not to advertise it so much, m’kay?
Comment 146—PiaToR

I doubt reeling off statistics is going to impress him; it’ll just convince him he’s better than a lot of people.

because deliberately misrepresenting what McEwan wrote, lying that she called herself humorless, and making digs about her, personally, is much easier for fauxgressives.
Comment 159—Gypsy Lee

I don’t think I’ve ever seen Amanda called a fauxgressive before.

I didn’t read the Shakesville post in question, but Ms McEwan does come off as humorless to a greater degree and with greater frequency than a lot of progressive and feminist bloggers I read, even [REDACTED]. I suspect this isn’t so much because she is humorless as such as because she’s human, and has seen people saying objectively offensive thngs and then hiding behind “I was kidding” often enough that claims of humor make her flinch.

Comment #161: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/16  at  11:05 AM

If your an adult, which I know is a stretch here, and you’re still a gamer (love that, we’ve got handles MAN) than you’ve got bigger problems than a warped sense of humor.

The only adults I know who don’t play videogames are over 50 and thus have the excuse of not having been kids and being in their formative period when videogames were invented. But any excuse is good for them to break out the playing cards. So, yeah, whatever. This sounds a lot like “you kids get off my lawn” to me.

In 50 years the average grandad will be playing videogames with his grandchildren.

Comment #162: BlackBloc  on  08/16  at  11:06 AM

(Or the average grandma, for that matter. This is a feminist blog and I should know better than to use gendered language.)

Comment #163: BlackBloc  on  08/16  at  11:07 AM

because deliberately misrepresenting what McEwan wrote, lying that she called herself humorless, and making digs about her, personally, is much easier for fauxgressives.

McEwan didn’t write the post.  You’re the first person in this entire thread to mention Melissa McEwan.  This thread is chock full of tilting at strawmen, though.

Comment #164: Ferox  on  08/16  at  11:29 AM

Ferox, Melissa is mentioned in Point #3 of Amanda’s original post. (I had to go look it up meself…)

Comment #165: Scott  on  08/16  at  12:48 PM

No one thinks that a cartoon, game, or movie alone is going to inspire someone to rape.

I refer you to Thompson, Jack as a single counterexample to “no one.”  That said, I saw the reply as sarcasm of the form I described.  The message in the reply is “duh, rape is bad, we know this, and we are not promoting it.  So back off.”  Or at least that’s how I read it.

What is argued is that oppressive humor tends to lower the bar culturally in regards to rape and harassment.

We agree on this.  But the humor here did not strike me as oppressive.  The whole ‘rape’ angle was tangential to the issue of of the weakness of moral choice scenarios presented in video games.  The reply was pure sarcasm aimed at the readers who either did not understand this or chose to ignore it.

On the other hand, while the rape angle was tangential, it is too close in proximity to prison rape jokes for my taste.  I would have chosen differently in the initial strip, but that’s just me.

Comment #166: Richard Goblin  on  08/16  at  12:55 PM

Richard—And Jack Thompson was disbarred in disgrace a few years ago. We won. We took many a triumphant victory lap. Many many studies have proven that videogames to not cause violent behavior. Anyone still whining about how the bad people are out to get videogames is living in the past.

Comment #167: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/16  at  01:02 PM

Anyone still whining about how the bad people are out to get videogames is living in the past.

Whose whining?  I’m explaining how I understood the reply cartoon - sarcasm aimed at prigs.  And there are enough people willing to ignore studies to ensure the “videogames are bad, um-kay” crowd will be around for awhile even as they dwindle away.

Comment #168: Richard Goblin  on  08/16  at  01:08 PM

‘Whose’ should be “who’s.”  Doh!

Comment #169: Richard Goblin  on  08/16  at  01:09 PM

Someone at Shakesville takes offense.

Late to the discussion, but when doesn’t someone at Shakesville take offense for a trifling matter? It’s been unreadable that way since at least the 2008 Democratic primary, and has become such a no-humour zone that I’d imagine some of our more priggish right-wing commenters like lonnie might feel more comfortable trolling there.

If your an adult, which I know is a stretch here, and you’re still a gamer (love that, we’ve got handles MAN) than you’ve got bigger problems than a warped sense of humor.

I consider myself a “gamer”—not hardcore, but it’s as legitimate a passtime for me as watching Mad Men or going out on a date. I was a computer gamer back in the early ‘80s, and an RPGer before that. Strangely, I’m also frequently mistaken for an adult, both by my ID and demeanour and lifestyle.

In any case, you don’t need to be a gamer to understand that the original cartoon was taking digs not only at min-max grinding gamers, but also most game designers (who incorporate casual talk of rape and other atrocities as a way to distinguish the “black hats” from the “white hats” in a given game universe).

Comment #170: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  01:15 PM

@169: We agree on this.  But the humor here did not strike me as oppressive.  The whole ‘rape’ angle was tangential to the issue of of the weakness of moral choice scenarios presented in video games.  The reply was pure sarcasm aimed at the readers who either did not understand this or chose to ignore it.

So what if it is tangential? The whole point of the criticism is that rape is treated so casually that it can be tangentially dropped in game discourse to make the point that something is very, very, bad. And while I don’t find it triggering or offensive to the point of rage, it is something that we discourage in our guild and team chats. And amazingly, we do have a lot of fun in spite of that.

Comment #171: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  01:21 PM

And I find it annoying for the implicit homophobia involved in most cases. But that’s another matter.

Comment #172: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  01:31 PM

I think Amanda is just so worried about being cool and showing that she is into sex etc. that any pretenses this is a feminist blog are over for me.

Comment #173: artemix  on  08/16  at  01:32 PM

“that it can be tangentially dropped in game discourse to make the point that something is very, very, bad.”

So, you’re making the “referencing rape = minimizing rape” argument?

The joke:

Enslaved NPC: “Don’t leave me here. I will be beaten and raped.”
PC: “Yes, I understand that, but I am not sufficiently moved to rescue you, given that the formulation of my arbitrary quest only requires I have empathy for five people, and you are number six.”

This joke only works via the audience’s understanding that rape is bad, and the PC is a bad person for not saving the NPC from being raped.

The joke hinges, therefore, on the idea that rape is bad. Not just bad for the slave, but objectively bad, bad enough that we understand someone who does not save another person from rape to be acting in an evil way.

Prison rape jokes are offensive because they formulate prison rape as indifferent or good. For example, the police officer says, “You’ll be the wife of a huge gangster named Tiny,” to the interview victim, and the audience is supposed to be smug because HA CRIMINAL GETS WHAT’S COMING TO HIM, which is formulating rape as good. Rape is not good, not even as a punishment for rapists, and so this joke is morally offensive.

Look, I get it. There’s a legitimate critique of shows like BSG which runs basically along the lines that rape is a cliche shorthand for coding a villain or a group of people as evil. This comic can be critiqued for that, although there are weaknesses to the argument, because while the critique works pretty well with serial works, it works less well with meta-media. But that’s a legitimate discussion, certainly. However, it still doesn’t make this strip a joke which has rape as the punchline.

Comment #174: Mandolin  on  08/16  at  01:42 PM

So what if it is tangential?

It means that the joke is not about rape, it’s about something else entirely.  Thus you are missing the point.  It also means you’re angrily nitpicking over minor details.  Most of all, it means you’re being boring by harping on it.

The whole point of the criticism is that rape is treated so casually that it can be tangentially dropped in game discourse to make the point that something is very, very, bad.

Was it treated casually in the initial cartoon?  Not really, it was treated as something horrible to contrast what counts as a moral choice in a side quest versus what would be considered moral in the regular world.  The fact that it was not treated casually is what makes the overall point of the piece.  I’m not even sure it was treated casually in the reply which was aimed at people who thought rape was the main theme in the original.  Again, the reply like the initial cartoon was not about rape, it was about the people who didn’t understand the initial cartoon or willfully ignored the point in order to get pissy about a tangential matter.

Comment #175: Richard Goblin  on  08/16  at  01:45 PM

“I think Amanda is just so worried about being cool and showing that she is into sex etc.”

The accusations of bad faith are precious.

A) As feminists, I thought respecting female agency was something we thought was a nifty idea, as in believing that women do things for their own reasons, and not to impress mythical men who might consider them to be “cool girls” or being impressed by their ability to have sex.

B) Hello, slut-shaming! We missed you, but you’ve made a comeback. Actually, we haven’t missed you, because you’ve been here all along.

Comment #176: Mandolin  on  08/16  at  01:48 PM

Mandolin: So, you’re making the “referencing rape = minimizing rape” argument?

For the audience that PA courts and develops, yes.

This joke only works via the audience’s understanding that rape is bad, and the PC is a bad person for not saving the NPC from being raped.

Yes, the problem is that rape doesn’t always mean sexual assault to a gaming audience. “I was raped” can also mean:

1: I failed miserably at defeating an AI-controlled boss.
2: I was defeated in PvP play.
3: The company that runs and published the game made a decision I don’t like, (“I was raped by Blizzard.)

Do I think that rape should never be referenced in games? Of course not. Do I think that people who write for and about games should be a bit more cautious about how they use rape as a plot device given that rape is routinely trivialized by a fair chunk of their audience? Yes.

However, it still doesn’t make this strip a joke which has rape as the punchline.

Which of course is the exact opposite of what I’ve written in the thread. I get that rape isn’t the punchline. I don’t think that matters.

Comment #177: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  02:01 PM

Was it treated casually in the initial cartoon?

It was implied in the cartoon (as sort of a throw-away, secondary joke) that the designers of this fictitious online RPG treated it casually—that it’s just as lazy and amoral of them to use an atrocity as short-hand for “black hat” as it was for them to allow a an equally lazy and amoral player to reach his goal by rescuing exactly 5 slaves and leaving the rest of them behind to a gruesome fate. The choice of “dickwolves” as the monsters in question only fleshed out the juvenile nature of the game designers.

I think Amanda is just so worried about being cool and showing that she is into sex etc.

That statement says more about how you seem to equate sex and sexual assault than about any failing on Amanda’s part (or the Penny Arcade guys’, for that matter).

The question I’m left with is whether you’re a militant second-wave feminist who believes all sex is rape and that’s a bad thing, or whether you’re a PUA/MRA type who thinks it’s a good thing.

Comment #178: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  02:08 PM

Adults who PLAY, not WORK on, video games on a regular basis really need to get a life.

Care to share some of your hobbies with us? Sports fan, perhaps? My guess is your idea of a good time is harrassing women outside Planned Parenthood clinics.

Comment #179: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  02:12 PM

It means that the joke is not about rape, it’s about something else entirely.

So what? Are we obligated to limit our criticism only to those aspects of a work that are “the point?” Or is anything about a work fair game for criticism?

My view is that if it’s on the page/screen, it’s fair game. Otherwise, you’re limited to a goes-nowhere/do-nothing standard of criticism.

Comment #180: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  02:12 PM

because deliberately misrepresenting what McEwan wrote, lying that she called herself humorless, and making digs about her, personally, is much easier for fauxgressives.

It wasn’t written by Melissa, it was written by a guest blogger named Milli A.

Comment #181: DTGslu2K  on  08/16  at  02:17 PM

It was implied in the cartoon (as sort of a throw-away, secondary joke) that the designers of this fictitious online RPG treated it casually—that it’s just as lazy and amoral of them to use an atrocity as short-hand for “black hat” as it was for them to allow a an equally lazy and amoral player to reach his goal by rescuing exactly 5 slaves and leaving the rest of them behind to a gruesome fate. The choice of “dickwolves” as the monsters in question only fleshed out the juvenile nature of the game designers.

Or alternately, PA is building sympathy for the enslaved character by playing off the fears of a homophobic audience who claim “I was raped” if they blunder at the auction house. I fully expect to see “raped by dickwolves” in my next instance group.

I think it’s problematic because of these ambiguities, and I don’t see it as a good idea to yell at the people who do find it reasonably problematic.

Comment #182: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  02:20 PM

Or alternately, PA is building sympathy for the enslaved character by playing off the fears of a homophobic audience who claim “I was raped” if they blunder at the auction house. I fully expect to see “raped by dickwolves” in my next instance group.

I think it’s problematic because of these ambiguities, and I don’t see it as a good idea to yell at the people who do find it reasonably problematic.

This is like criticizing Mad Men because the audience isn’t likely to see Don Draper’s sexist behavior as a bad thing.  I don’t see any point in criticizing art for how another audience, that I’m not a part of, might perceive it.

Comment #183: Ferox  on  08/16  at  02:25 PM

This is like criticizing Mad Men because the audience isn’t likely to see Don Draper’s sexist behavior as a bad thing.  I don’t see any point in criticizing art for how another audience, that I’m not a part of, might perceive it.

Sure, the problem is that the text its self is ambiguous as to the reading. Tycho and Gabe are figuratively dead in this issue, and you can’t reasonably exclude negative readings that look at the phrase in a context in which “raped by Blizzard” and “raped by dickwolves” might mean the same thing.

Comment #184: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  02:31 PM

@CBrachyrhynchos exactly right.  If you are trying to get most gamers to be shocked at rape, it’s not gonna happen.  The word is so over used you might as well be saying “he ate a sandwich” instead of “raped by dickwolves.”  Thus it fails to add to the joke, but only adds to the numbification* to the word rape.

 

*yep I use made up words.

Comment #185: Vail  on  08/16  at  02:38 PM

I must not feed, I must not feed ...

Oh, fuck it:

I think Amanda is just so worried about being cool and showing that she is into sex etc. that any pretenses this is a feminist blog are over for me.
Comment 176—artemix

Ah, how good of you to join us, O Queen of Feminism. Shame it was to cut Amanda’s buttons off. Now, other issues aside, why can’t someone who is into sex write a feminist blog?

Comment #186: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/16  at  02:47 PM

Sure, the problem is that the text its self is ambiguous as to the reading. Tycho and Gabe are figuratively dead in this issue, and you can’t reasonably exclude negative readings that look at the phrase in a context in which “raped by Blizzard” and “raped by dickwolves” might mean the same thing.

And in this case, I think that’s a pretty severe misreading of the comic.  “Raped to sleep by the dickwolves” is an evocative description of an awful, unjust fate, and it contrasts sharply with the minor difference between right-clicking five prisoners and right-clicking six.  But because it’s a game, and the player has no gameplay incentive to prevent this injustice, we get the third panel.

I just don’t see where you’re getting that the text can be read, by an audience that isn’t just dead-set on an inaccurate reading from the start, in such a way that rape is being minimized, rather than used as a severe and awful thing to highlight the way moral action isn’t incentivized in a game that, by its nature, requires a persistent repopulating of suffering slaves to rescue by future players.

In any event, I laughed at the comic when I originally read it, because it reminded me of the quest to free slaves in the Pit of Saron instance.  I think the audience aimed at was people who have noticed similar oddities in MMOs, and who think rape is an awful thing that people should be saved from.  Your perception of the reading from the text seems strange to me, and other than assuming the audience will get a major part of the comic wrong, I don’t see how you’re arriving at it.

Comment #187: Ferox  on  08/16  at  02:48 PM

Talkiing about sense of humor and a mythical creature made of dicks…

http://i38.tinypic.com/98d7xc.jpg

Comment #188: Renmiri  on  08/16  at  02:50 PM

Or alternately, PA is building sympathy for the enslaved character by playing off the fears of a homophobic audience who claim “I was raped” if they blunder at the auction house.

That’s a bit of a stretch. The joke’s premise rests on the fact that the enslaved NPC victim is behaving like an actual person who (quite rationally and independent of sexual prejudice) would be fearful of the prospect of rape. If the NPC had been drawn as a woman instead of a man, the casual homo-bigotry of many hardcore gamers wouldn’t have come up.

I fully expect to see “raped by dickwolves” in my next instance group.

To which you can reply “I like Penny Arcade, too, but way to miss the joke.”

Lots of readers, even hardcore gamers, are going to miss the point of these strips. That’s not the fault of the Penny Arcade guys, who aren’t aiming their strip at gamers who are teenagers or adult cases of arrested development, let alone sex-negative and humorless non-gamers.

The text isn’t ambiguous to its intended audience, and even the less sophisticated gamers reading it will understand that the NPC is talking about real and not figurative rape. If those same gamers decide to borrow “dickwolves” to add to discussions of figurative rape, that’s not the fault of Gabe and Tycho.

If you are trying to get most gamers to be shocked at rape, it’s not gonna happen.

That’s one of the the points of the joke—the PC is indifferent not only to the NPC’s status as a rape victim, but also to his status as a bloody slave.

Comment #189: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  02:52 PM

Yeah, I know I’m a little late to the game, but I really need to answer Pharmakos at #42 about “Well everyone knows rape is bad, duh!”  (Yes, paraphrasing, my browser isn’t letting me copy paste right now.)

I had a former friend stand there, look me in the eye knowing I was a rape survivor and tell me about the night he had a party, his ex-girlfriend got drunk and didn’t want to drive, so he told her she could crash in his bed.  After everyone else left, he went to his bed, held her down and “had sex with her” even as she cried and said “No!”

When I stared at him and said, “You raped her?” his response was, “Did that lying bitch tell you that?”

He honest to god did not view what he had done as rape.  At all.  Not even a little bit.  His rationale was, “She was in my bed.  You can’t wave a steak at a starving dog and think it won’t bite.”

Nevermind he knew she was drunk and he’d TOLD HER it was ok to crash out in his bed.  It was all her dirty, drunken slutty fault and if she said rape, she was a lying bitch. 


So, no, everyone doesn’t agree that rape is bad, or even what it is.  And it’s more than a little disingenuous of you to say that everyone does agree rape is bad. 

Sorry, I know this is a little off topic, but it is related.

Comment #190: GeekGirlsRule  on  08/16  at  02:54 PM

And in this case, I think that’s a pretty severe misreading of the comic.  “Raped to sleep by the dickwolves” is an evocative description of an awful, unjust fate, and it contrasts sharply with the minor difference between right-clicking five prisoners and right-clicking six.  But because it’s a game, and the player has no gameplay incentive to prevent this injustice, we get the third panel.

I don’t get that because the strip already has made the slave into a stock character and exaggerated the situation to the point of becoming ludicrous. I no more feel that the slave here is really in fear of being raped, than the witch in Monty Python’s Holy Grail was in danger of being drowned.

Comment #191: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  03:07 PM

I’ve been trying not to feed the troll, but I’ll just add my anecdata: My circle of ‘gamer’ friends includes a doctor, two corporate executives, a security guard, some pharmacists, research scientists (3 chemists, a physicist and a toxicologist that I know of), secretaries, a nurse, computer people (who I’ll lump together because I don’t know what they do, exactly), police officers, librarians, a soldier and a sailor (well, naval aviator), teachers, lawyers, a 911 dispatcher (until the Bush economy cut that position out from under her), graphic designers, realtors, and a DJ, just to list a few.  They range in age from mid 20s to mid 60s, with most in their mid 30s to early 40s.  Many are married, some are single, many have children.  Most are straight, a few aren’t.  Most are white, a few aren’t.  Probably 60/40 male/female breakdown.  That’s just my circle of gamer friends - YMMV.  Some of them I’m good friends with, some are just fellow hobbyists.

When they’re not working or doing family stuff or playing games (ranging from Rock Band to bridge to World of Warcraft to Dungeons and Dragons) they do other fun stuff.  Some are TV buffs, some movie buffs.  Some like anime or comic books.  Some are sports fans.  One is an amateur sculptor and a muscle car enthusiast.  One co-owns a dojo and devotes a lot of his spare time to teaching and learning karate.  Some of us are political junkies or bookworms.  A couple that I know of have extensive gun collections and like to shoot.  At least two coach youth sports.  One knits, a few bake, several are adventurous cooks.  At least one gardens extensively.  At least two sew (as in make clothing for themselves or others, but not professionally).  Two are involved in animal rescue, and one is a disability advocate.  These are gamers in the real world - not caricature of a recluse eating Cheetos in his parents’ basement.

Comment #192: libdevil  on  08/16  at  03:09 PM

So, no, everyone doesn’t agree that rape is bad, or even what it is.

It’s more the latter than the former, at least as far as your story is concerned (I had a similar conversations with a guy when I was younger—probably the last time I talked to him).

In the case of the comic strip, however, there’s little ambiguity that the NPC is describing unambiguous and literal rape. If Gabe and Tycho had really wanted to comment on the juvenile and male-privileged nature of many gamers, they could have added an extra punchline like “besides, it’s only your word against the dickwolves’ that it was rape.” But the PC gamer in the comic already sufficiently looks like an amoral arsehole.

Comment #193: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  03:15 PM

My paternal grandmother, alas, was a baptist who hated drink because you would become a drunkard, and hated cards because you would become a gambler.

How’d she get to be your grandmother?

Comment #194: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/16  at  03:20 PM

That’s a bit of a stretch. The joke’s premise rests on the fact that the enslaved NPC victim is behaving like an actual person who (quite rationally and independent of sexual prejudice) would be fearful of the prospect of rape.  If the NPC had been drawn as a woman instead of a man, the casual homo-bigotry of many hardcore gamers wouldn’t have come up.

There’s four obvious problems here:
1) We’re not talking about an actual person here, but a stock and exaggerated character.

2) You don’t have to say, “rape is good” in order to trivialize rape. The premise isn’t the problem, and it’s baffling that you don’t get that yet.

3) The threat is too ludicrously exaggerated to be believable, and parallels the highly exaggerated use of “rape” in game discourse.

4) We can’t really say, “what if this was written by Shakespeare with a female slave, and monkies.” We have to work with the text as given.

The text isn’t ambiguous to its intended audience, and even the less sophisticated gamers reading it will understand that the NPC is talking about real and not figurative rape.

Yes, a figurative stock character is talking about a real rape by monsters. Ok…..

I’m the target audience and I find it ambiguous. Now granted, this is something that I’d just roll my eyes at and press the spacebar to move to the next comic, but I don’t consider the criticisms of the comic to be unreasonable.

Comment #195: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  03:21 PM

I don’t get that because the strip already has made the slave into a stock character and exaggerated the situation to the point of becoming ludicrous. I no more feel that the slave here is really in fear of being raped, than the witch in Monty Python’s Holy Grail was in danger of being drowned.

This is the problem with po-mo readings of humour: your personal inability to get it doesn’t matter or change the intent of the authors.

What’s posited by Gabe and Tycho is that we have an NPC slave who (being more than a scripted bot) is in real fear of being raped, and a PC gamer who’s indifferent to the rape, the slavery, and whatever other depredations to which this wretch has been subjected.

Comment #196: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  03:22 PM

Late to the discussion, but when doesn’t someone at Shakesville take offense for a trifling matter? It’s been unreadable that way since at least the 2008 Democratic primary, and has become such a no-humour zone that I’d imagine some of our more priggish right-wing commenters like lonnie might feel more comfortable trolling there.

No - they have a heavy hand on the moderation there, while piously claiming to be all for the best.  It’s enough to make you think “Say, maybe the wingnuts have a point about lefties” before you go beat your head against a wall to recover.

Comment #197: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/16  at  03:25 PM

computer people (who I’ll lump together because I don’t know what they do, exactly)

That’s okay. To tell you a secret, we actually don’t do anything. We just bang on our keyboards and read Slashdot all day. We just use the fact that your Chief Information Officer doesn’t know what we do either but is bluffing all the managers into thinking he actually knows this stuff to string him up along with talks of “Web 2.0” and “social web synergy” and “the new dot NET paradigm”, and keep getting paychecks for goofing off all day.

Comment #198: BlackBloc  on  08/16  at  03:25 PM

If Gabe and Tycho had really wanted to comment on the juvenile and male-privileged nature of many gamers, they could have added an extra punchline like “besides, it’s only your word against the dickwolves’ that it was rape.”

Maybe it’s the fact I’m a fan of very dark humor, but I think you’ve just improved the joke.

Comment #199: BlackBloc  on  08/16  at  03:30 PM

This is the problem with po-mo readings of humour: your personal inability to get it doesn’t matter or change the intent of the authors.

1) I get the joke. I get the premise of the joke. Is your inability to understand this due to rhetorical stubbornness, or some deeper problem?

2) The intent of the authors doesn’t really matter.

What’s posited by Gabe and Tycho is that we have an NPC slave who (being more than a scripted bot) is in real fear of being raped, and a PC gamer who’s indifferent to the rape, the slavery, and whatever other depredations to which this wretch has been subjected.

Except that the NPC’s existence as a scripted bot is clearly established by the first panel of the strip, and the fear of rape can’t be taken seriously because it’s been exaggerated for comic effect.

The problem isn’t that the strip portrays rape as bad, but it does so in an ambiguous way that echos the use of “rape” throughout the subculture that’s the audience for the comic. It’s not obvious that the comic means it in one way and not another.

Comment #200: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  03:30 PM

1) We’re not talking about an actual person here, but a stock and exaggerated character.

In other words, a typical NPC in an MMPORG. With one major exception—the NPC is acting like a real human would in such dire circumstances. Many jokes are based on similarly absurd premises.

2) You don’t have to say, “rape is good” in order to trivialize rape. The premise isn’t the problem, and it’s baffling that you don’t get that yet.

How exactly are they trivialising rape? Are we not allowed to mention its existence?

Are you shocked and upset that they’re trivialising slavery, too? How about deaths resulting from melee combat?

In fact, they’re making the assumption that rape is a de facto bad thing, just as Monty Python assumes that the Black Knight being dismembered is, despite his protestations to the contrary, a bad thing.

The threat is too ludicrously exaggerated to be believable, and parallels the highly exaggerated use of “rape” in game discourse.

It’s a comic strip—ludicrous exaggeration is used to make a point. Fictitious games like the one in the strip aside, I don’t see many games where enslaved NPCs claim that they’re being raped—the slavery is assumed to be horrible enough on its own.

4) We can’t really say, “what if this was written by Shakespeare with a female slave, and monkies.” We have to work with the text as given.

And the authors’ body of work, and stated opinions. Post-modernism has its uses, but it’s used to justify a lot of politically motivated BS, too.

Comment #201: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  03:31 PM

Great argument, X amount of the population is playing video games and they seem to be ok.  Or my husband does and hes ok, so you say, than it must be the thing to do right?  Adults who PLAY, not WORK on, video games on a regular basis really need to get a life.  I know a few and they’re heart attacks waiting to happen.  Same if you’re a parent, although why would a parent be on an Abortions-R-Us website, your kids ought to be putting the controller down as well.  Loved the “get off my lawn” quote.

Look, John, you are a fool.

Play is a necessary part of being human - literally.  Look up “homo ludens” sometime.  We are neotonous apes - we play through our entire lives, which makes us different from the bloody chimpanzee.

Commercial video games started in the seventies, John.  I’m in my early 40s now, and I’m one of the oldest of a generation that has spent its entire life around video games.  They stopped being kid’s business quite a while back as the early adopters headed into their 30s, John.

They’re bigger business than Hollywood, they’re a ubiquitious part of American life, and they’re played by a range of people up to and including seniors.  Your ranting about them just makes you look even more stupid than you usually do.

Comment #202: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/16  at  03:36 PM

Except that the NPC’s existence as a scripted bot is clearly established by the first panel of the strip

Yes, that’s what comedians call the “set-up”: setting the scene of the normal and expected, before throwing a curveball. Everything up to “savage blows” is standard-issue NPC speak, and then they go into over-the-top horrific. That’s what comedians and humourists do.

Do you think Jonathan Swift should have refrained from jokes about cannibalism to make his point in “A Modest Proposal”?

The problem isn’t that the strip portrays rape as bad, but it does so in an ambiguous way that echos the use of “rape” throughout the subculture that’s the audience for the comic.

So you’re saying that the NPC character is some sort of masochist? Or that he’s lying to get the sympathy of the PC? Those are the only ways that statement could be ambiguous in the strip’s context.

Comment #203: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  03:38 PM

To tell you a secret, we actually don’t do anything.

Some of you do things!  I can tell, because there are interwebs for me to waste time on.  Somebody made them.  And this black box in front of me usually does what I tell it to do, so somebody made that happen.  And when it’s misbehaving, I take it to the people upstairs and they look at me as if I were a particularly ill-mannered child who just crapped on the carpet and they fix it.

Comment #204: libdevil  on  08/16  at  03:45 PM

“To tell you a secret, we actually don’t do anything. We just bang on our keyboards and read Slashdot all day. We just use the fact that your Chief Information Officer doesn’t know what we do either but is bluffing all the managers into thinking he actually knows this stuff to string him up along with talks of “Web 2.0” and “social web synergy” and “the new dot NET paradigm”, and keep getting paychecks for goofing off all day.”

BlackBloc, do I need to remind you: 
The first rule of IT Club is: you do not talk about IT Club. The second rule of IT Club is: you do not talk about IT Club.

Way to let your bros down, man…

Comment #205: MikeEss  on  08/16  at  03:46 PM

In other words, a typical NPC in an MMPORG. With one major exception—the NPC is acting like a real human would in such dire circumstances. Many jokes are based on similarly absurd premises.

You mean, by talking in a rather stilted parody of antiquated English?

How exactly are they trivialising rape? Are we not allowed to mention its existence?

The chronic misuse of the word “rape” for things that are not really rape within gamer culture, and the overuse of rape as a plot device in fantasy literature leaves many of us wanting for less common and more thoughtful uses of the theme.

Are you shocked and upset that they’re trivialising slavery, too? How about deaths resulting from melee combat?

Well, as previously made clear, I’m not shocked and upset by anything other than the accusation that people who criticize the strip are paradoxically anti-feminist. I do think the strip could have been made more effective had they not made “raped by dickwolves” a secondary punchline.

It’s a comic strip—ludicrous exaggeration is used to make a point.

Well that’s the problem I have with this. A more sober report of rape that doesn’t sound exactly like the kind of thing I read in trade chat would be more believable to me.

Comment #206: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  03:47 PM

Cosign Mandolin and Gracchus. I think that the original joke was laid out as obviously as possible, and I understood it perfectly the first time I read it. As has been explained already, the rape was not the punchline but the lack of empathy was, which imho sets it apart from a true “rape” joke.

There’s still the argument that using rape at all in a joke is inappropriate, however I found the mention of rape appropriate in this case—the NPC is already enslaved and beaten so piling rape on top of that is just trying to make his life as absolutely obviously shitty as possible. It’s like how you can tell a joke with an orphan on crutches who just watched her puppy get murdered; the pile on of misery doesn’t minimize any of those things, it just is used to amp up the distress to ridiculously sympathetic levels. In a joke format you need a shorthand for “worst life possible” and I think that mashing together lots of overtly terrible things works as that shorthand in this case.

(Also, I snicker a little bit every time I read the word “dickwolves” because that is such a nice little snark at MMORPG naming conventions. I agree that part of the point was to show how immature and heartless the designers and the players were being in the game.

Comment #207: Bagelsan  on  08/16  at  03:56 PM

You mean, by talking in a rather stilted parody of antiquated English?

Yes, up until they take things over the top.

The chronic misuse of the word “rape” for things that are not really rape within gamer culture

So you’re saying the NPC in this strip (who’s not a gamer but a character in the game world) is talking about being figuratively raped by the dickwolves (who may or may not be other characters in the gameworld). That seems a gross misreading to me, but post-modernism does make any reading legitimate, so you’re in the clear there.

Why would an NPC be concerned about being raped in the figurative sense?

and the overuse of rape as a plot device in fantasy literature leaves many of us wanting for less common and more thoughtful uses of the theme.

Ah, so now it’s back to literal rape again. I’d agree that it’s over-used and lazy, a short-hand for “stuff only bad guys do”—but that’s one of the points of this strip.

Well, as previously made clear, I’m not shocked and upset by anything other than the accusation that people who criticize the strip are paradoxically anti-feminist.

I haven’t made that accusation, and neither has Amanda. The critics have been characterised as being a particular type of feminist: humourless, sex-negative, second-wave. The kind who tends to hang around Shakesville.

I do think the strip could have been made more effective had they not made “raped by dickwolves” a secondary punchline.

How? That over-the-top line establishes that this NPC is not a typical bot, but someone who even the most callous PC, unmoved by slavery and beatings, should have sympathy for.

Well that’s the problem I have with this. A more sober report of rape that doesn’t sound exactly like the kind of thing I read in trade chat would be more believable to me.

The strip has nothing to do with “trade chat”—you’re bringing that to the text, not the authors. An NPC, bot or self-aware, is not involved in out-of-character trade chat, with its evocations of figurative rape.

Comment #208: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  04:04 PM

Well that’s the problem I have with this. A more sober report of rape that doesn’t sound exactly like the kind of thing I read in trade chat would be more believable to me.

So… your problem with the joke is that it’s a joke?

And I just don’t see the connection between the language used in this comic and the language used by insensitive players who use “rape” as a synonym for “inconvenience.”  The character in this joke is clearly distraught about the awful violation visited on him.  Again, to provide a humorous contrast to the other character’s inaction.

I understand that you get the joke, I just disagree with you completely about whether the use of rape in this context is in any way ambiguous, except to an audience too misogynistic and stupid to differentiate.  I don’t know why you’re worried about how that audience, which you’re not a part of, will perceive the comic.

Comment #209: Ferox  on  08/16  at  04:06 PM

Thus it fails to add to the joke, but only adds to the numbification* to the word rape.

*yep I use made up words.

If you really think about it, all words are made up words.

As for a word made up by someone else, I think “desensitization” would fit the meaning you were trying to convey.

Comment #210: DTGslu2K  on  08/16  at  04:16 PM

The chronic misuse of the word “rape” for things that are not really rape within gamer culture,
Comment 210—CBrachyrhynchos

I assume you meant “the chronic misuse, within gamer culture, of the word “rape” for things that are not really rape.” And I would point out that in this specific case, the word is being used for something that is rape, or at least isn’t being used in the metaphorical way that you, rightly, see as trivializing. Like Gracchus said, the NPC isn’t worred about losing a game or having a hard time on a test.

Comment #211: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/16  at  04:16 PM

Also:

I see that Milli A says about herself more or less what I said about Ms McEwan in 164:

This is why I’m a humorless feminist. Because rape jokes killed my sense of humor.

Comment #212: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/16  at  04:21 PM

The Penny Arcade guys are assholes.  Approach them with anything, and you’re going to get an improper response.

And with anything less than an ironclad case, arguing with assholes will only make you look bad.

Comment #213: Crissa  on  08/16  at  04:28 PM

So you’re saying that the NPC character is some sort of masochist? Or that he’s lying to get the sympathy of the PC? Those are the only ways that statement could be ambiguous in the strip’s context.

Possibly, rape narratives are a big part of Mary Sue roleplay after all. 

The ambiguity is between something that happens to real people, or between an obviously embellished figurative badness intended as a plot device for a moral choice. And I have to say, that when games present such a hackneyed moral dilemma, I’ll sometimes choose the fast option because they’ve broken immersion for me and it’s all mechanics at that point.

Why would an NPC be concerned about being raped in the figurative sense?

It’s all figurative. Likely nothing happens to the NPC once the player leaves the zone until another PC comes through to get the exact same dialog. So in most cases, we’re dependent on the NPC’s scripted interaction to make inferences about what happens off-camera, and when an NPC uses a line like this, I think the writers are taking a piss in posing the moral dilemma.

The critics have been characterised as being a particular type of feminist: humourless, sex-negative, second-wave. The kind who tends to hang around Shakesville.

Well, that’s a gross misreading. But I suppose anything is permissible as long as you have an axe to grind, so you’re in the clear here.

How? That over-the-top line establishes that this NPC is not a typical bot, but someone who even the most callous PC, unmoved by slavery and beatings, should have sympathy for.

Now you see, that’s about the kind of badly written line that makes me roll my eyes and put the game on the shelf for a few weeks.

The strip has nothing to do with “trade chat”—you’re bringing that to the text, not the authors. An NPC, bot or self-aware, is not involved in out-of-character trade chat, with its evocations of figurative rape.

No, but the strip is written by, for, and in the same language as the people who participate in those kinds of discussions.

Comment #214: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  04:30 PM

So… your problem with the joke is that it’s a joke?

Of course not. But as defenders keep insisting, this particular line is tangential to the joke so in criticizing this line, I’m not criticizing the joke at all.

I understand that you get the joke, I just disagree with you completely about whether the use of rape in this context is in any way ambiguous, except to an audience too misogynistic and stupid to differentiate.  I don’t know why you’re worried about how that audience, which you’re not a part of, will perceive the comic.

That’s fine, I think it’s reasonable to not like this particular strip on the grounds that rape should be more selectively used as a plot device. I’m more worried at the insistence that we have to have a hive-mind consensus on something that wasn’t very well-designed to begin with.

Comment #215: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  04:36 PM

Likely nothing happens to the NPC once the player leaves the zone until another PC comes through to get the exact same dialog.

I’m confused… have you played games like this? Do you honestly think there’s a remote possibility that WoW, for example, is going to carry through on raping an NPC if the player doesn’t stop it? Of course it’s not really a moral choice for an actual gamer not to save an NPC. Other gamers do the same thing you do when they hear an NPC talking about “they enslaved my people—!” ... they wave their hand and go “yeah yeah yeah what’s the XP and drops like?” because they don’t really believe there is any moral choice or danger. The joke is that the NPC in this comic steps out of the NPC role, makes it clear that he is actually in danger and there is a moral choice, and the gamer is still like “meh.”

But I’m going to stop beating my head against the wall of “explaining a joke” now…

Comment #216: Bagelsan  on  08/16  at  04:49 PM

Possibly, rape narratives are a big part of Mary Sue roleplay after all.

I know evidence is optional with a post-modern reading, but what in the text suggests that’s even a remote possibility?

And I have to say, that when games present such a hackneyed moral dilemma, I’ll sometimes choose the fast option because they’ve broken immersion for me and it’s all mechanics at that point.

You’ve just described the same joke that the strip made, in far less funny terms. Congratulations.

It’s all figurative.

So the NPC does out of character trading in between visits from PCs? It’s a charming idea, but no-one’s buying that one, either.

Likely nothing happens to the NPC once the player leaves the zone until another PC comes through to get the exact same dialog. So in most cases, we’re dependent on the NPC’s scripted interaction to make inferences about what happens off-camera, and when an NPC uses a line like this, I think the writers are taking a piss in posing the moral dilemma.

No, they’re arguing for better RPG quests that pose actual moral dilemmas (e.g. providing a plausible reason why only 5 slaves and no more might be saved and which, which is an age-old staple of literature, movies, and TV).

Now you see, that’s about the kind of badly written line that makes me roll my eyes and put the game on the shelf for a few weeks.

They’re also arguing for players who are informed about such things to do more than roll their eyes at hackneyed dialogue and then play out the mechanics by choosing the fast option.

That’s the point of the joke. Gabe and Tycho aren’t claiming that this fictitious MMORPG is a good game, nor that the player is particularly imaginative or willing to immerse himself in anything but a joyless grind.

Well, that’s a gross misreading. But I suppose anything is permissible as long as you have an axe to grind, so you’re in the clear here.

Who made the accusation that the critics were being anti-feminist? I know it’s silly asking for evidence, but humour me. I’m just reporting the criticism that I, Amanda, and others have made.

No, but the strip is written by, for, and in the same language as the people who participate in those kinds of discussions.

The strip is also written by and for people who, no matter how obnoxious, understand the contextual difference between metaphorical and literal rape. If a moron chooses to think that the slave in the strip is discussing the cheating ways of other OOC players colloquially known as “dickwolves,” that’s his problem.

Comment #217: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  04:56 PM

I fundamentally disagree that mentioning rape is minimizing rape, even in front of an audience one dislikes.

Comment #218: Mandolin  on  08/16  at  04:57 PM

They’re bigger business than Hollywood, they’re a ubiquitious part of American life, and they’re played by a range of people up to and including seniors.  Your ranting about them just makes you look even more stupid than you usually do.

That depends on how narrowly you define “Hollywood”.  In 2009, television generated roughly $40 Billion, just shy of 2009 video game revenue of $42 Billion.  The movie industry generated $27 Billion at the box office, and another $23 Billion in DVD sales and rentals.

So if you are referring to Hollywood as TV and film, video games generated a little less than half the revenue of Hollywood in 2009.  If Hollywood refers exclusively to film, Hollywood still took in roughly $8 Billion more than video games in 2009.  2009 was a record year for movie ticket sales, believed by many analysts to be a result of people seeking escape from their financial worries in these troubled economic times.

That said, video game revenue is increasing at a rapid pace, whereas TV and film are much more flat in their annual revenue changes.  Assuming the trend continues along the same trajectory, video games will surpass Hollywood within a few years, though at some point that market will hit a relative ceiling as well.  I think the tremendous success of Nintendo Wii, which has sold almost as many units as Microsoft XBox 360 and Sony PlayStation3 combined, has radically expanded the marketplace.  Many older adults who previously weren’t very interested in video games have discovered in Wii a console that often appeals to them as much or sometimes even more than it appeals to their children.

Comment #219: DTGslu2K  on  08/16  at  04:58 PM

In 50 years the average grandad will be playing videogames with his grandchildren.

Due to the wide demographic appeal of Wii, many already are.

Comment #220: DTGslu2K  on  08/16  at  05:00 PM

I fundamentally disagree that mentioning rape is minimizing rape, even in front of an audience one dislikes.

In fact, sometimes doing so is exactly the slap in the face that audience needs, even if they still can’t connect the word with the act. But there I go, explaining the point of the strip’s joke again.

Comment #221: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  05:03 PM

This “save XX slaves” type of quest is often part of a larger process that will help many more people than the few you immediately affect. The “five slaves” are just side issues that you stumble over and solve to the best of your ability on your journey. In Fallout 3, for instance, you rescue slaves in ones and twos when you find them by chance in the camps of Super Mutants, but you can also choose to help Hannibal Hamlin’s group turn the Lincoln Memorial into an anti-slaver strongpoint, or clean out the slaver camp at Paradise Falls, disrupting the local slave trade completely, on your way to an ultimate goal that benefits the whole region and everyone who lives in it.

The “save five slaves” stipulation, silly as it is, is still a fivefold improvement on what that carpenter’s son was supposed to have done with his theoretically unlimited powers. He is said to have cured in ones, not in fives. (Though I suppose you could say he thought he had an ultimate goal of his own.)

And remember, there are a number of games where you go for the whole system, not just its victims. In the original Doom, for instance, you literally destroy Hell and kill the Devil. Can’t get much more fundamental than that! (And funny too, when your player character wonders at the end “where bad people will go when they die now”).

Comment #222: sunsin  on  08/16  at  05:09 PM

@222: I fundamentally disagree that mentioning rape is minimizing rape, even in front of an audience one dislikes.

That’s fine, exactly no one is arguing this

@225: In fact, sometimes doing so is exactly the slap in the face that audience needs, even if they still can’t connect the word with the act. But there I go, explaining the point of the strip’s joke again.

I don’t see how this is remotely a slap in the face given that it uses the exact same language as that audience.

Comment #223: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  05:11 PM

Here, we’re discussing gaming experiences now. I vacillate wildly between being a sappy gamer and a kill-em gamer. If I have been annoyed by bad dialogue (and I am super picky about dialogue, so most game dialogue to me qualifies as bad dialogue), I will hack/slash/look for drops happily. If, on the other hand, I am given no information, and fill in with my own imagination, I actually do have moral pangs about NPCs.

Yes, I’m aware it’s stupid. But I am the sort of person who, when given charge to save five slaves (and not annoyed by bad dialogue that’s pushed me out of the game), will either try to figure out how to save more, or feel bad that I’m not saving more. Look, in act V of diablo II when there are barbarians out there fighting the monsters with you? I always feel a twinge when I don’t fight well enough to keep one of them alive.

You’re not supposed to have that twinge of identification. The games aren’t designed around that. They’re designed to make the callous treatment of NPCs de riguer.

As a science fiction writer, one of the things I try really hard to do is to intervene in stories that are all written about the fucking heroes, with little attention given to the minor characters—or the unseen characters—who have to die or suffer to make the hero’s story function. My first published story, “Scene from a Dystopia,” is a meta-fictional exploration of that, and I don’t remember offhand whether it has any sexual assault in it. I’m fairly sure it doesn’t. But it’s Serious anyway, so I guess that wouldn’t matter.

I actually think narrative is very basic to human thought. And narratives like the ones in games and television shows and books do affect us. I don’t think they affect us in such simple ways as people who propose that they make kids go on killing sprees propose. But I think the way we’re given to telling stories affects how we make sense of what goes on in our lives and in our world.

So, one of my goals as a writer is to shock people out of that, to shock them out of the assumptions they’re making. Going in to save only five slaves IS ludicrous; it shows a callousness that’s not immediately transparent given the form of the game. Highlighting the fact that we all, light-heartedly accept cruelty all the time is an interesting message. Yeah, if I wrote it, it would probably be some weird, dark vignette from the slave’s perspective, about being left behind. But whatever, not all people use my style, and thank heaven for that. A joke serves equally well.

Why exactly is rape a particular protected class in terms of this joke? This joke doesn’t minimize rape; it doesn’t suggest rape is indifferent or okay or good. So, it can’t be that it’s playing into rape culture by minimizing rape. Instead, what we have is an—explicit from CBrachyrhyncous—feeling that rape is so bad that it must not even be mentioned in a context with humor.

No mention is being made of the slavery itself, or the beatings, or the implied threat of death. It can’t be that we think rape is worse than the others because it disproportionately affects oppressed classes (women, prisoners, children)... since slavery also disproportionately affects oppressed classes (poor people of color) and so does murder (black men, pregnant women and trans people, among others).

So, what? Do we think women as a class deserve protection more than black men and trans people and poor people of color as classes? (I’m sorry for the exclusive language there; I’m hoping “as a class” makes it clear that I mean this is a mistaken formulation which poses these groups as non-overlapping).

Is it because boys in chat rooms use the word rape cavalierly? But surely they also use violent language referencing beating and murder.

Is it because rape should be kept distinct from humor? But then we’re back to square one, because why should rape enjoy a class of protection that other violence doesn’t?

Do we think all violence should be kept out of humor? Maybe, I seem to remember some arguments at Shakesville aiming in that direction. Okay, but then why are we focusing primarily—or even solely—on the rape aspect here?

I don’t think the “rape references are inherently bad” argument is going to work. At least not as thus far proposed.

Comment #224: Mandolin  on  08/16  at  05:13 PM

I know evidence is optional with a post-modern reading, but what in the text suggests that’s even a remote possibility?

It was a joke, do you need an explanation?

You’ve just described the same joke that the strip made, in far less funny terms. Congratulations.

Do you not understand that critics understand the premise of the joke yet, but disagree on the delivery? (And while am at it, show, don’t tell, and seven voice balloons in 3 frames?)

That’s the point of the joke. Gabe and Tycho aren’t claiming that this fictitious MMORPG is a good game, nor that the player is particularly imaginative or willing to immerse himself in anything but a joyless grind.

That’s nice. Irrelevant, but nice.

Comment #225: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  05:14 PM

C, now, responding to my statement that “I fundamentally disagree that mentioning rape is minimizing rape, even in front of an audience one dislikes.”

That’s fine, exactly no one is arguing this

C, earlier:

Mandolin: So, you’re making the “referencing rape = minimizing rape” argument?

For the audience that PA courts and develops, yes.

Comment #226: Mandolin  on  08/16  at  05:15 PM

Quick follow-up to my comment #223 above, my figures for video games and film are based on global revenues, not just U.S. revenues.  In the U.S. market, video games edged out movie ticket sales, but not movie ticket sales plus DVD sales/rentals.

Also, my TV revenue figure above was way off… <a href=‘http://www.international-television.org/tv_market_data/world-tv-market-2010.html’>the global television industry generated nearly $270 Billion in revenue in 2009</blockquote>, which was actually a 1.2% decline from 2008 (2010, however, is expected to surpass 2008).  The revenue is a combination of advertising money as well as subscription television revenues.  That said, television encompasses much, much more than strictly Hollywood-generated entertainment, and the most widely-viewed television events are products of the sports industry (ie Super Bowl, Olympics, World Cup, etc.).

Comment #227: DTGslu2K  on  08/16  at  05:17 PM

Instead, what we have is an—explicit from CBrachyrhyncous—feeling that rape is so bad that it must not even be mentioned in a context with humor.

Actually, I explicitly said the opposite. Nice try there.

Comment #228: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  05:18 PM

Then what the fuck did you mean by “For the audience that PA courts and develops, yes.”? Are you just trying to fuck with me?

Comment #229: Mandolin  on  08/16  at  05:20 PM

Do I think that rape should never be referenced in games? Of course not. Do I think that people who write for and about games should be a bit more cautious about how they use rape as a plot device given that rape is routinely trivialized by a fair chunk of their audience? Yes.

Liar, liar, pants on fire, Mandolin.

Comment #230: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  05:20 PM

Due to the wide demographic appeal of Wii, many already are.

Yes but my point was that it was going to be common, whereas right now it’s a bit more of an avant-garde/early adopters thing.

If I got a penny each time some conservative-type misread a generational shift as some sort of essential characteristic of youth or adulthood/old age, I could quit my job. People in general are reluctant to change their habits or try new hobbies. So people who grew up with videogames are likely to be playing them even when they get older, whereas people who grew up before videogames are unlikely to pick them up. You’d have to be a complete moron to think that people ‘outgrew’ videogames when they didn’t even grow up playing them. But that’s conservatives for you.

It’s just like how I always hear about “don’t get that tattoo, what will you look like when you’re 60 years old? have you ever seen an old person with a tattoo?”. No. But when I’m going to be 60 I expect I’ll see a whole lot of them. Because people who grew up in an age where tattoo culture wasn’t as marginal will have grown up to be 60 and will be old people with tattoos.

Comment #231: BlackBloc  on  08/16  at  05:23 PM

Okay. So, they have to be more careful about how they reference it, as long as they never reference it to their audience. Or possibly what I quoted means something else entirely, as yet unexplained.

Either way, you seem to have decided you’re not interested in engaging with me, so whatever.

Comment #232: Mandolin  on  08/16  at  05:23 PM

@233: I answered that in the post that you quoted.

Comment #233: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  05:24 PM

Okay. So, they have to be more careful about how they reference it, as long as they never reference it to their audience.

Again, wrong. The criticism is that in dealing with an audience that drops the word “rape” over trivial matters that a bit more care is needed to take the issue seriously. Perhaps you could address that position rather than invented ones?

Comment #234: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  05:27 PM

Shit, html fail (damn I wish comments could be edited), let’s try that again…

the global television industry generated nearly $270 Billion in revenue in 2009

Comment #235: DTGslu2K  on  08/16  at  05:28 PM

This “save XX slaves” type of quest is often part of a larger process that will help many more people than the few you immediately affect.

Although this isn’t the type of MMORPG Penny Arcade is discussing, you’re absolutely correct. And I don’t think this more sophisticated approach is limited to off-line RPG videogames. A lot of the reputation mechanics in the Fable series, for example, could be ported over to an on-line RPG for interesting effect—suddenly you have one or more new currencies in addition to gold and items—currencies that can’t be traded easily out of game. As I understand it, Eve Online pretty much does this kind of thing on an ad-hoc basis.

Comment #236: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  05:29 PM

It was a joke, do you need an explanation?

Yes, because you’re nowhere near as funny as Tycho and Gabe.

Do you not understand that critics understand the premise of the joke yet, but disagree on the delivery?

I do. But you’re not criticising the strip on the grounds of aesthetics and execution. You’re claiming the “rape by dickwolves” line was something it was not, and was gratuitous.

That’s nice. Irrelevant, but nice.

I thought it would be somewhat relevant to a gamer who claims to be concerned about quality games but who will “sometimes choose the fast option because they’ve broken immersion for me and it’s all mechanics at that point.”

And it’s fine to be interested in game mechanics to the exclusion of all else, but at that point the other content (such as depredations visited on NPCs) is so much cruft.

Comment #237: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  05:30 PM

Assuming the trend continues along the same trajectory, video games will surpass Hollywood within a few years, though at some point that market will hit a relative ceiling as well.

There will also be a greater degree of convergence. There will come a point, especially in certain genres, where some sort of interactive element, supplement, or spin-off of the passive media property will be expected. We’re already there in my opinion.

Due to the wide demographic appeal of Wii, many already are.

Yep, my Dad, who used to be Mr. “Videogames are for kids,” got hooked on the Wii by my nephew. One session and it was “what have I been missing all these years?”

Comment #238: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  05:31 PM

This “save XX slaves” type of quest is often part of a larger process that will help many more people than the few you immediately affect. The “five slaves” are just side issues that you stumble over and solve to the best of your ability on your journey. In Fallout 3, for instance, you rescue slaves in ones and twos when you find them by chance in the camps of Super Mutants, but you can also choose to help Hannibal Hamlin’s group turn the Lincoln Memorial into an anti-slaver strongpoint, or clean out the slaver camp at Paradise Falls, disrupting the local slave trade completely, on your way to an ultimate goal that benefits the whole region and everyone who lives in it.

I don’t remember Fallout 3 having “Save X slaves” quests. It does have “save the slaves” quests where you go somewhere and save all of them. The “Save X” quests are a particular trope of MMORPGs, where non-instanced worlds that are shared means that the designers resolved the issue of getting all players to be able to interact with that quest line by spawning infinite slaves and putting a counter on the quest.

In fact I can imagine some follow up strip where some player, sympathetic to the slaves’ suffering in the paws of the dickwolves decides to liberate all of them, prompting some other adventurer to fire off a complaint to a GM because the adventurer is griefing the server by making it impossible for other players to free their own 5 slaves (something I’ve seen happen in Champions Online, minus the griefing accusations, since we were naturally running out of instanced people to save due to server traffic and we had to get in line to wait for the people in distress to respawn so we could all complete our mission).

Comment #239: BlackBloc  on  08/16  at  05:32 PM

And just so you know, there’s few things that feel as unheroic as standing in line behind 6 other superheroes waiting for some evil to happen so I can thwart it. I sympathize with criminals trying to make ends meet in Marvel Universe’s New York…

Comment #240: BlackBloc  on  08/16  at  05:36 PM

The criticism is that in dealing with an audience that drops the word “rape” over trivial matters that a bit more care is needed to take the issue seriously.

Are you saying that any and every PA strip that mentions the word “rape” should contain a joke about how many gamers drop the word over trivial matters?

Also, are you saying that the PA audience is close to monolithic in this way?

Comment #241: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  05:37 PM

I don’t really see a point in engaging with you, CB, since you’re accusing me of bad faith. I’m sorry I didn’t understand your argument, although I really think that’s because you didn’t state it very clearly. Which happens and all, I mean, we’re all writing fast here. But it would be sort of nice if you didn’t accuse people of acting in bad faith. *shrug*

Comment #242: Mandolin  on  08/16  at  05:37 PM

Yes, because you’re nowhere near as funny as Tycho and Gabe.

I should hope not! I much prefer the absurd to the preachy.

I do. But you’re not criticising the strip on the grounds of aesthetics and execution. You’re claiming the “rape by dickwolves” line was something it was not, and was gratuitous.

I’m confused, is the line “rape by dickwolves” central to the joke as you’re arguing now, or is it a tangent to the joke as was argued earlier?

I’ve not said anything about the line being gratuitous. I am saying that the line is open to multiple interpretations and you’ve not really done much to support the notion that it can only be read in one way.

Comment #243: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  05:39 PM

Are you saying that any and every PA strip that mentions the word “rape” should contain a joke about how many gamers drop the word over trivial matters?

Of course not.

Also, are you saying that the PA audience is close to monolithic in this way?

Of course not.

Comment #244: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  05:45 PM

I’m confused, is the line “rape by dickwolves” central to the joke as you’re arguing now, or is it a tangent to the joke as was argued earlier?

It’s central to the structure of the joke (in taking things into over-the-top horrible), the point of which is that lots of players prefer to roll their eyes at hackneyed dialogue and situations and then proceed to grind away at the game anyhow, and that lots of lazy MMORPG designers cater to that kind of gamer. Sound familiar?

I’ve not said anything about the line being gratuitous.

You’re saying that Tycho and Gabe threw the line in thoughtlessly. I’m saying that they chose it with a great deal of thought, and with one interpretation in mind given the context.

Comment #245: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  05:47 PM

I have mixed feelings about the original strip but man, they were assholes in the follow-up. There is no one with a functioning frontal lobe who really worries that mentioning rape in a comic strip will make people go out and commit rape. I will eat my own left ear if the complaints PA received actually were about the strip “encouraging rape”. They responded to an utter fabrication, and I have to believe they knew they were doing it, so they were being completely disingenuous.

Comment #246: kristin  on  08/16  at  05:48 PM

It’s central to the structure of the joke (in taking things into over-the-top horrible), the point of which is that lots of players prefer to roll their eyes at hackneyed dialogue and situations and then proceed to grind away at the game anyhow, and that lots of lazy MMORPG designers cater to that kind of gamer. Sound familiar?

Then by all means yes. I think the joke would have been much more effective for me had Tycho and Gabe not spoiled my sympathy for the slave by making him sound like an anonymous internet asshole in trade chat. But it seems that you want to argue two different things here, that the joke both depends on sympathy for the NPC and on violating that sympathy by exaggerating his plight beyond belief.

You’re saying that Tycho and Gabe threw the line in thoughtlessly. I’m saying that they chose it with a great deal of thought, and with one interpretation in mind given the context.

Oh no, I’ve not said anything about them being thoughtless either. I do think they’re less successful than they intended with that line.

Comment #247: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  05:52 PM

Of course not.

Then you’re basically saying that the line is bad because people who aren’t Tycho and Gabe’s intended audience (e.g. non-gamers, people who don’t like humour, obnoxious adolescent boys) might misinterpret it or be triggered by it. To which I say, too bad for them.

As many of the commenters herehave demonstrated, there are adult men and women gamers who do enjoy humour, and understood exactly why the line is there. Many of them are also feminists.

Comment #248: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  05:52 PM

Then you’re basically saying that the line is bad because people who aren’t Tycho and Gabe’s intended audience (e.g. non-gamers, people who don’t like humour, obnoxious adolescent boys) might misinterpret it or be triggered by it. To which I say, too bad for them.

Of course not. Now could you perhaps respond to something I have said?

As many of the commenters herehave demonstrated, there are adult men and women gamers who do enjoy humour, and understood exactly why the line is there. Many of them are also feminists.

Sure, I’m one of them. But I didn’t find it very funny.

Comment #249: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  05:55 PM

I think the essential objection I have to the concept outlined in the strip is that rape has become lazy shorthand for “bad guy is really bad.”  It’s not sufficient to say “he shoots innocent people” or “he enslaves populations” or “he drops kittens from high towers” - no, if Anonymous Author wishes to have something Really Hideously Awful is going to happen to Given Character the aforementioned Author turns to Rape, thus establishing that the Bad Guy is so completely utterly Evil, you know.

Have an action hero who needs even more justification to go out and machine-gun the bad guys?  Have his mother/sister/wife/daughter not just killed, but raped first.  Have a HEROINE who needs motivation to go out and do action-y things?  Have her raped (see: Red Sonja.)

Thus it seems to me that we are on the rhetorical precipice of having rape turned into another trivial character-establishing trope.  I think back to 1930s movies (often now parodied) where the fact that Dead Character was MURDERED evokes shock, disbelief, and horror.  Now, of course, the fact that the Villain is a murderer isn’t enough to get more than a “meh” reaction from we jaded players/viewers, almost as if killing someone is really not all that bad.  So, of course, we phase into murdering children - but even then, that’s getting tired and just making the audience yawn.  What next?  Oh, of course!  Let’s play the rape card.  But, naturally, raping a *woman* isn’t EXTREME EVIL enough, so let’s make sure the bad guy rapes *men* too, or better yet, *children*.

In the end, it’s just another sad step down the ladder of making rape trivial and irrelevant, wearing down the shock and horror of the experience for the victims as it becomes part of the lazy cultural lexicon for “bad thing.”  To that I add - in the comic, it wasn’t enough to have the poor slave raped, it had to be done by some exaggurated rape-monster-machine…in order to evoke even just a bit of pity.

Comment #250: tannenburg  on  08/16  at  05:58 PM

That said, video game revenue is increasing at a rapid pace, whereas TV and film are much more flat in their annual revenue changes.  Assuming the trend continues along the same trajectory, video games will surpass Hollywood within a few years, though at some point that market will hit a relative ceiling as well.

As much as I love video games (working on Etrian Odyssey II right now)  I’ve always disliked when people compare video game revenues to other similar media like film and television.

I don’t think it’s fair comparison since the fact that games are significantly more expensive than other forms of media.  I can see a movie for $8.  12+ a month from Netflix for $20 (plus all the streaming I want).

The fact that the average new game costs between $30 and $60 really distorts the revenue comparison and makes gaming appear to be much more of a cultural competitor than it is yet.

Comment #251: dead souls  on  08/16  at  05:58 PM

Then by all means yes. I think the joke would have been much more effective for me had Tycho and Gabe not spoiled my sympathy for the slave by making him sound like an anonymous internet asshole in trade chat

But they’re not. They’re making him sound like a typical victim NPC (hackneyed olde tyme dialogue and all), but with an objectively horrible situation of literal rape by an over-the-top absurd monster—so objectively horrible that (and this is the point) even an NPC can be shaken out of his bot-itude into self awareness.

But it seems that you want to argue two different things here, that the joke both depends on sympathy for the NPC and on violating that sympathy by exaggerating his plight beyond belief.

There’s no sympathy being violated on the part of the intended audience. But for the arsehole PC character, the sympathy for the poor wretch is pre-violated, and no number of enslavements, beatings, or even rapes by dickwolves will change that.

Oh no, I’ve not said anything about them being thoughtless either. I do think they’re less successful than they intended with that line.

I think an over-the-top, totally in bad taste line was essential to the joke’s structure. But then, I don’t come out of Mel Brooks’ The Producers wringing my hands over the possibility that someone might be insulted or encouraged by a musical number about Nazis.

Comment #252: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  06:01 PM

Thus it seems to me that we are on the rhetorical precipice of having rape turned into another trivial character-establishing trope.

I think in many genres, it’s over the edge and in free-fall.

Comment #253: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  06:02 PM

But I didn’t find it very funny.

Do you think they should have dropped the line completely? Perhaps Mel Brooks should have dropped “Springtime for Hitler” from The Producers.

Comment #254: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  06:08 PM

But they’re not. They’re making him sound like a typical victim NPC (hackneyed olde tyme dialogue and all), but with an objectively horrible situation of literal rape by an over-the-top absurd monster—so objectively horrible that (and this is the point) even an NPC can be shaken out of his bot-itude into self awareness.

Really? “Raped by dickwovles” strikes me as an unbelievable line that I’d likely chalk up to a bad translation if I actually were to hear it in a game. Unless it’s a game that’s built with that in mind.

There’s no sympathy being violated on the part of the intended audience.

Since you’ve identified the audience as me, it fails an audience test.

I think an over-the-top, totally in bad taste line was essential to the joke’s structure. But then, I don’t come out of Mel Brooks’ The Producers wringing my hands over the possibility that someone might be insulted or encouraged by a musical number about Nazis.

Brooks rigorously audience-tested most of his edits and gags before going to a final edit. I’m not convinced Penny Arcade did.

Comment #255: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  06:09 PM

Do you think they should have dropped the line completely? Perhaps Mel Brooks should have dropped “Springtime for Hitler” from The Producers.

Of course not. But at a minimum, I think they should have anticipated that there’s already a big shitstorm (by adult, mature, and feminist gamers) over how rape is treated in games and had thicker and more gracious skin in place before hitting upload.

Comment #256: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  06:13 PM

And again my response would have been to shrug and hit the spacebar to go to the next comic. (I find that really good comics usually only “hit” once a week.) But I’m uncomfortable with insisting that everyone else in the world is wrong for not sharing my ambivalence.

Comment #257: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  06:16 PM

“Springtime for Hitler,” was supposed to be offensive in the context of the play.  The producers were trying to write a play that nobody would go to see so that they could oversell percentages.  Some humor is intentionally offensive in order to draw attention to social problems and perhaps that is what “raped to sleep by dickwolves,” was meant to do.  I don’t think it worked very well, if that was the intention, but not everyone is Mel Brooks. 

I can’t understand how anyone could be anti-humor though.  Being offended by a particular piece of humor is understandable and happens to almost everyone.  Being opposed to humor in general, though, is like being against being human.

Comment #258: G Porgey  on  08/16  at  06:20 PM

“Raped by dickwovles” strikes me as an unbelievable line that I’d likely chalk up to a bad translation if I actually were to hear it in a game.

The NPC is at the mercy of the game designers. If the game designers included rapin’ dickwolves in the game world and I was an NPC who had to live in that game world, I’d be pretty terrified by them.

Since you’ve identified the audience as me, it fails an audience test.

I said intended audience. Not people who believe that the rape described by the NPC is anything but literal.

Brooks rigorously audience-tested most of his edits and gags before going to a final edit. I’m not convinced Penny Arcade did.

If Brooks had audience-tested with someone like you or the person at Shakesville, the money-losing play would have been simply bad, not in over-the-top crazy bad taste.

But at a minimum, I think they should have anticipated that there’s already a big shitstorm (by adult, mature, and feminist gamers) over how rape is treated in games and had thicker and more gracious skin in place before hitting upload.

You don’t see rape mentioned much in MMORPGs or non-adult offline RPGs. I have no doubt that both will follow in the path of fantasy literature and movies, because there’s a lot of hackery out there in general. But at the moment, even if he’d left out the dickwolves the idea of rape as a deliberate design or content element in a game like WoW or Everquest is absurd—the dickwolves just drove the absurdity home in a style comletely appropriate to the kind of juvenile hack game designer they’re mocking alongside the amoral grinder PC.

But I’m uncomfortable with insisting that everyone else in the world is wrong for not sharing my ambivalence.

You’re supposed to feel ambivalent with that kind of black humour, at least until you grasp the context and larger message and put the instance of crazy bad taste in perspective. It took me until the last word of the last panel to get to that point, but some people get stuck on “raped by dickwolves” just like some got stuck on “Springtime for Hitler.” Those people are generally the ones who wander by the strip or movie in error, or who have decided to misinterpret the intent of the author to get their rage on.

The problem with the Shakesville author was not only that she couldn’t grasp the context and larger message, but that she doesn’t like humour of any sort. What she’s doing reading comics of any sort is beyond me.

Comment #259: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  06:38 PM

If I got a penny each time some conservative-type misread a generational shift as some sort of essential characteristic of youth or adulthood/old age, I could quit my job. People in general are reluctant to change their habits or try new hobbies. So people who grew up with videogames are likely to be playing them even when they get older, whereas people who grew up before videogames are unlikely to pick them up. You’d have to be a complete moron to think that people ‘outgrew’ videogames when they didn’t even grow up playing them. But that’s conservatives for you.

Very true, and it applies to much more than just people’s entertainment habits.  The reason why I don’t worry too much about whether or not same-sex marriage will become legal is because each successive generation has become more tolerant and accepting of homosexuality as a valid and legitimate sexual orientation.  Younger people are more attuned to the fact that homosexuality is a genuinely innate human characteristic as opposed to some sort of immoral lifestyle that homosexuals have “chosen” as a way to defy some mythical bearded sky fairy.  One thing that has always troubled me about the words “gay lifestyle” is that they imply that homosexuality is nothing more than a behavioral choice, as opposed to an innate human characteristic.  So long as fundie assholes can convince people that being gay is like a light switch that can be flipped on or off at will, there will be hostility and bigotry towards LGBT people.  But as that bullshit argument loses steam, the arguments for keeping LGBT people in a status of second-class citizenship will also fade.  A recent CNN poll showed that for the very first time in American history, the concept of legalized same-sex marriage has reached a balance between those opposed and those in support.  Prior to this, the anti-equality bigots had always made up the majority.  In the not too distant future, support for marriage equality will be the majority position in the court of public opinion.  Repeal of DADT is already around 75% (which makes the spinelessness of Congress and the White House on the matter even more inexplicable), and that only happened as a result of old bigots dying off and more open-minded younger people replacing them.

It’s just like how I always hear about “don’t get that tattoo, what will you look like when you’re 60 years old? have you ever seen an old person with a tattoo?”. No. But when I’m going to be 60 I expect I’ll see a whole lot of them. Because people who grew up in an age where tattoo culture wasn’t as marginal will have grown up to be 60 and will be old people with tattoos.

I just read an interesting column a few days ago in Business section of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch emphasizing the growing tolerance for tattoos in white collar culture.  While it hasn’t yet reached the point of complete tolerance, tattoos have become so ubiquitous that it’s no longer terribly unusual for young college-educated professionals to have them, though often they aren’t visible while wearing business attire.  I remember one of my 30-something grad school professors having a few tattoos that were visible when he wore short sleeves, and this was a man just under 40 with an Ivy League PhD.  And it isn’t just college professors, but more and more doctors and lawyers who have tattoos nowadays, and there are even some corporate executives (particularly in the younger tech industry) with ink now.  When I was an undergrad, getting tattooed was seen as slightly more edgy than it is today, but even then the trend was getting pretty widespread among college students of varying backgrounds and tastes.  Once you started seeing College Republicans and Campus Bible Study types sporting tattoos, the edginess of getting tattooed was dead.  I believe I have more friends with one or more tattoos than friends with none, and almost none of these people fit the outdated stereotypes that were once attributed to tattooed people.  I tend to be somewhat understated in my own choice of fashion, and I’ve had a tattoo on my right calf muscle for 15 years.  Occasionally when people who know me see it for the first time, they are a little surprised, as I guess they don’t see me as the sort of person who they would think of having a tattoo.

I see the same trend for marijuana as well, which is why I’ll be surprised if it remains widely illegal 20 years from now.  In the 1960s, it was stereotyped as mainly a hippie drug, but today, I know very few people under the age of 25 who have never once used marijuana in their lives, including most young wingnuts.

Comment #260: DTGslu2K  on  08/16  at  06:40 PM

Totally unrelated, but Harry Reid has once again reminded me of just how spineless and worthless he is at his job, as he’s hopped aboard the bigoted Islamophobic bandwagon protesting the building of a <strike>mosque</strike> Islamic Community Center <strike>at</strike> two blocks away from Ground Zero.  Good job, you worthless fucking coward.  The next time some dark-skinned kid who looks like he might be Muslim gets beaten by white trash assholes for his perceived religious beliefs, know that the blood is partly on your hands, asshat.

What the fuck is wrong with the Blue Party this summer?  It seems like everytime Glenn Beck says the word “socialism”, a Democrat wets his pants.  Democrats, you are becoming a parody of yourselves, fully living up to the spineless caricature that has been made of you for as long as I’ve been alive.  If you don’t like being seen as wimpy little douchebags that are too easily frightened by wingnut boogeymen, I have a novel little suggestion… QUIT FUCKING ACTING LIKE WIMPY LITTLE DOUCHEBAGS!!!

Comment #261: DTGslu2K  on  08/16  at  06:51 PM

I said intended audience.

Which you previously identified as mature, possibly feminist, gamers, with a sense of humor. I certainly qualify being over the age of 40, feminist, and a gamer. I’m certainly must have a sense of humor as I’m laughing at your attempt to argue by behaving badly and changing the rules with every post.

Not people who believe that the rape described by the NPC is anything but literal.

But now you’re arguing for an unreasonable definition of the target audience. That is the target audience is anyone who agrees with the author. By the same standard, you can argue that such stupidity as Chipmunks, The Squeakel and Highlander 2 are smashing successes if we only redefine the audience after the fact.

If Brooks had audience-tested with someone like you or the person at Shakesville, the money-losing play would have been simply bad, not in over-the-top crazy bad taste.

Ahh, an ad hom and a logic failure in one sentence. Hint, my dislike of a mediocre three-panel strip such as Penny Arcade says nothing about my opinions of masterful comedic works like The Producers or Monty Python.

t took me until the last word of the last panel to get to that point, but some people get stuck on “raped by dickwolves” just like some got stuck on “Springtime for Hitler.”

And I read the whole thing and thought it wasn’t very good.

The problem with the Shakesville author was not only that she couldn’t grasp the context and larger message, but that she doesn’t like humour of any sort. What she’s doing reading comics of any sort is beyond me.

And the reason is (reading in context) because there’s often a rape joke coming around the corner. I disagree that rape jokes are that prevalent, but there’s whole classes of comedy I tend to avoid because there’s a queer joke slipped in sooner or later.

Comment #262: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  06:56 PM

Yeah, I’m uncomfortable with the portrayal of the Shakesville author as “not liking humor” or “not having a sense of humor”. That wasn’t what she was saying about herself. She was responding to the idea that feminists are humorless by pointing out that mainstream humor often doesn’t give women much to like, what with the woman-hating and all.

Comment #263: kristin  on  08/16  at  07:04 PM

From my point of view, you’re attributing genius to a urinal…

...in a Starbucks restroom.

I mean, it’s not a bad strip, if we’re comparing it to Garfield. I just don’t think it’s very good even by Penny Arcade standards.

Comment #264: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  07:05 PM

That is the target audience is anyone who agrees with the author.

Not agrees with, but understands and accepts the style of. There are some people who like the movies you mention, and went to them precisely because they were sequels. They probably are not the people who like PA.

Hint, my dislike of a mediocre three-panel strip such as Penny Arcade says nothing about my opinions of masterful comedic works like The Producers or Monty Python.

And yet you’re wringing your hands over how some people might misinterpret the use of a distasteful element to make a larger point. Brooks and the Pythons deal with the same bloody thing every bloody time.

And I read the whole thing and thought it wasn’t very good.

I don’t think it’s the epitome of originality in terms of concept—NPCs and minor characters showing awareness of their predicament in the face of cruel authors and indifferent heroes are old hat (although a perennially funny one). But the strip made its point well enough and the “raped by dickwolves” bit was in line with the over-the-top bad taste I’ve come to expect from the inventors of the “Juicef*cker 3000.”

And the reason is (reading in context) because there’s often a rape joke coming around the corner.

Then why her shock and dismay over a site that’s known to regularly indulge in bad taste and black humour? It’s like people who accuse Brooks of being a self-hating Jew. She was looking for an excuse for a ragefest and to add to the parade of overblown grievances that is Shakesville, and she obviously found it.

Anyhow, I’m done with this thread.

Comment #265: Gracchus.  on  08/16  at  07:12 PM

Save us Amanda! Or we will be blogged to sleep by the blogwolves!

Comment #266: pablo  on  08/16  at  07:25 PM

And yet you’re wringing your hands over how some people might misinterpret the use of a distasteful element to make a larger point. Brooks and the Pythons deal with the same bloody thing every bloody time.

Brooks and the Pythons both did it far better, and took it in the chin quite a bit better. Apples and oranges really.

Comment #267: CBrachyrhynchos  on  08/16  at  07:32 PM

A guest blogger at Shakesville wrote in reaction to the comic. Melissa McEwan wrote in reaction to the reaction to the guest blogger’s post.

People are entitled to their own emotional responses. The “joke” was about prison rape as a torture that readers could identify with wanting to escape. No comic strip women suffered injury from this “joke.”

Comment #268: Hector B.  on  08/16  at  07:33 PM

John, you DO realize that a lot of us have actually been inside health centers that provide abortions, right? (And not always for abortions because those places provide a lot of different health-care services?) You DO realize that we’ve actually engaged with the health care providers inside and know what they actually act like, right? You DO realize we know perfectly well that they’re about a hundred times more compassionate and respectful than you yourself are, right?

In other words: you DO realize that we know perfectly well that you’re lying and fearmongering like the sack of shit you are, right?

Comment #269: kristin  on  08/16  at  07:36 PM

Really? “Raped by dickwovles” strikes me as an unbelievable line that I’d likely chalk up to a bad translation if I actually were to hear it in a game.

The exact line was “raped to sleep by the dickwolves”, pairing it with “every morning being roused by savage blows”.  Because, you know, they’re the bookends of just another day in an actual hell.  “Raped to sleep” is pretty much an unbelievable line regardless of the dickiness or wolfiness of those responsible - establishing that this is Hell, after all.  Or at least a MMORPG riff off the Hell trope.

Incidentally, it has the conceptual three beat for humour - an ascending scale established by the first two points, subverted or twisted by the last - (i) “Roused by savage blows”, (ii) “Raped to sleep”, and (iii) “by the dickwolves”

You’re not supposed to have that twinge of identification. The games aren’t designed around that. They’re designed to make the callous treatment of NPCs de riguer.

Contrast this with the old “Planescape Torment”.

Firstly, one crucial emerging plot point is the fact that your character had previously used and betrayed a NPC callously, leading her to die because he had a use for her ghost.  It forced you to take a moral stance which was crucial to defining what your character would be this time around.

Secondly, it spent a lot of time establishing the companion NPCs as quirky and engaging characters in their own right.  Which is what gave the game its legitimate emotional heft at the end when, one by one, they all faced the Big Bad and chose to die hopelessly fighting in your defense.  It wasn’t just a case of a game saying “oh, let’s make the main character face the last guy by himself” - it was actually heart-breaking.  At that point I decided games could be art works.

Comment #270: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/16  at  08:12 PM

@JohnMckay

Fishing, you say? 

You know, Gentlemen, it is an easy thing to scoff at any art or
recreation; a little wit mixed with ill nature, confidence, and malice,
will do it; but though they often venture boldly, yet they are often
caught, even in their own trap, according to that of Lucian, the father of
the family of Scoffers:

Lucian, well skilled in scoffing, this hath writ,
Friend, that’s your folly, which you think your wit:
This you vent oft, void both of wit and fear,
Meaning another, when yourself you jeer.

Comment #271: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/16  at  08:13 PM

To the people wondering about Springtime for Hitler, a lot of Jewish humor revolves around making light of the perilous situations Jews have found themselves in. There is a lot of galllow’s humor involved. A favorite of mine:

  An Austrian Jew during the 1930s walked into a travel agency in search of visa to another country because the Jew believed that things were only going to get worse for the Jews and get real bad, real soon. The travel agent keeps explaining to the Jew, how hard it is to get a visa to practically anywhere, whether it be America or Canada or Australia or the UK or Palestine. The Jew asked when visas would be available and was told that he should come back in ten years. At this point the Jew asked, “pardon me but do you have another globe?”

  Jewish humor isn’t really for those that believe that serious things should never be the subject of a joke.

Comment #272: Lee  on  08/16  at  08:26 PM

The “joke” was about prison rape as a torture that readers could identify with wanting to escape. No comic strip women suffered injury from this “joke.”

I think this is part of the reason why they chose a male NPC rather than a female NPC. I assume in their audience that guys slightly edge out women (at least, they seem to write primarily towards guys) so having a guy be the victim might be intended to hit a little closer to home for a guy. Also, avoiding having a victimized woman makes it even less likely that the situation described will actually apply to a reader (if the “dickwolves” bit wasn’t sufficiently unrealistic)—not to mention dodges a bit of that women getting raped to advance the plot crap. It still might play into the “LOL prison rape!” and homophobia of dude gamer culture, but I think it was done with some thoughtfulness on the part of the author… whether or not that succeeded.

Comment #273: Bagelsan  on  08/16  at  09:02 PM

Save us Amanda! Or we will be blogged to sleep by the blogwolves!

Whatev, pablo, Amanda already saved the 10 commenters she needed. :p

Comment #274: Bagelsan  on  08/16  at  09:04 PM

The “joke” was about prison rape as a torture that readers could identify with wanting to escape. No comic strip women suffered injury from this “joke.”

Jay-sus Christ, I can’t believe after almost 300 comments there are still some people so dense that they think the joke still needs to be explained.  It doesn’t need to be explained.  It never needed to be explained.  The person who objected to the joke?  She got it.  So did the readers of the joke and the readers of her objection.  Everybody got it.  OK?

The joke (“joke”) of this event is that some people wrote a comic and some other people said that’s not funny…  and now days later the vast forces of the internet are still arraying to tell the humorless ones how humorless they are.  Give it a freaking rest!  No matter how many times you go over the rudiments of a joke that, I assure you, everybody understood, you still aren’t going to get everyone thinking it’s funny. 

And every time you mention rape someone is going to stand up and say “ouch.”  Funny detail:  it won’t always be the same person.  Live with it.

Actually, wasn’t that the point of the original blog post this absurdity is attached to?  I think so…  it was something along the lines of ‘if someone is offended by what you’ve written, you don’t have to go into asshole overdrive in response.’ 

I guess every asshat on this thread begs to differ.

Comment #275: Eileen  on  08/16  at  09:32 PM

there are still some people so dense that they think the joke still needs to be explained.

I was just scoring at home, but thanks for your opinion of my intelligence.

It’s all clear to me now. If people are quick to take offense when no offense was intended, some other people will decide to react offensively. Might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb.

Comment #276: Hector B.  on  08/16  at  11:48 PM

Yes but my point was that it [grandparents gaming with grandchildren] was going to be common, whereas right now it’s a bit more of an avant-garde/early adopters thing.

[snip]

It’s just like how I always hear about “don’t get that tattoo, what will you look like when you’re 60 years old? have you ever seen an old person with a tattoo?”. No. But when I’m going to be 60 I expect I’ll see a whole lot of them. Because people who grew up in an age where tattoo culture wasn’t as marginal will have grown up to be 60 and will be old people with tattoos.
Comment #235: BlackBloc on 08/16 at 04:23 PM

Yep.

Plus, I’m 50, and I have 50 and 50-plus friends who have tattoos and play video games with their grandchildren, and it’s totally unremarkable to me.  Maybe the tattoo commonplace-ness is because I have blue-collar and biker and musician friends, and the gaming commonplace-ness is because I have techie friends, but not everyone matches these stereotypes.

And of course what you look like at 60 with the tat depends on how you maintain it.  Lots of people making that kind of comment are thinking about some older friend or relative who had an anchor applied at age 17 when they joined the Navy and never had it touched up.  Of course it looks like a blob.

Comment #277: oldfeminist  on  08/17  at  02:50 AM

If people are quick to take offense when no offense was intended, some other people will decide to react offensively. Might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb.
Comment #282: Hector B.  on 08/16 at 10:48 PM

In some cases, offense isn’t intended, but offense exists nevertheless. 

Is the concept of privilege still opaque to you? 

Is unintended offense forever to be forgiven, or do we expect people to learn, eventually?

Comment #278: oldfeminist  on  08/17  at  02:55 AM

old feminist, thank you for your condescension. It’s yummy served on toast.

Coming to a feminist space, I must accept and act on criticism from feminists—that’s part of the deal.

Here, the cartoonists were in their own space. And the columnist ranting about how rape jokes are never funny was in her hyperfeminist space. Neither one was trying to persuade the other that their POV was correct—no communication was intended or perhaps even possible. They were each a two-liter bottle of diet coke stuffed with mentos.

Now if the Shakesville sister had started off by acknowledging the lack of ill-will on the part of the cartoonists—because privilege does not imply evil intent—and then explained why the joke was just. not. funny. then perhaps the cartoonists would have examined their privilege, and reacted in an evolved manner.

Comment #279: Hector B.  on  08/17  at  02:55 PM

Hector, part of being an ally is understanding that women do not need to be instructed by you in how to talk to men.

Comment #280: Eileen  on  08/17  at  03:05 PM

women do not need to be instructed by you in how to talk to men.

So how was the Shakesville post designed to obtain the goal of no more rape jokes? Or was that not its objective?

Comment #281: Hector B.  on  08/17  at  03:19 PM

You’re absolutely right.  The primary reason injustice and assholery exist in the world is because the victims didn’t ask nicely enough that it stop.  Go forward and tell the world!

Comment #282: Eileen  on  08/17  at  03:33 PM

In some cases, offense isn’t intended, but offense exists nevertheless.

Is the concept of privilege still opaque to you?

I think Hector should drop it, imho, but it’s also disingenuous to pretend that anyone who thinks the original comic was not offensive is coming from a place of privilege. Plenty of feminists-who-are-women had no problem with it. Merely the existence of offense does not make it offensive automatically—in this case I don’t think the original comic intended offense nor did it offend most people, so I’d argue that Shakesville’s argument is pretty weak no matter how very very righteously offended they were on the behalf of all rape victims everywhere*.

*I glanced through the comments over there and I didn’t see anyone who said they were genuinely triggered by the dickwolves. I just saw a lot of people who were very determined to make a point on behalf of all the (imaginary?) silent masses who could’ve been.

Comment #283: Bagelsan  on  08/17  at  08:47 PM

I just saw a lot of people who were very determined to make a point on behalf of all the (imaginary?) silent masses who could’ve been.

So?  I mean, really… so?  You’ve got a community of people who take rape very seriously.  The world at large likes to pretend to take rape seriously, but really doesn’t.  And so the two have had a clash.

Ooh, the dominant paradigm doesn’t like that, not one bit.  But you know what?  It’s one web-site that even other feminists find easy to marginalize.  So what’s the big deal?  Why still on about it days later?  What is it about rape culture that people find so yummy?  Is it the creamy caramel center?  Is there some treat hidden within that I just haven’t found yet?

Because if everybody wasn’t freaking soaking in rape culture it would be no big deal to have a small group of people in one corner of the web who didn’t think a joke was funny.

Comment #284: Eileen  on  08/18  at  12:27 AM

Is it the creamy caramel center?

Yes, yes what feminists like about rape culture is the creamy caramel center. You are entirely right. I’m going to stop talking to you now, which probably means you win, defender of very very sensitive blogs everywhere. 9.9

Comment #285: Bagelsan  on  08/18  at  01:40 AM

“I think Hector should drop it, imho, but it’s also disingenuous to pretend that anyone who thinks the original comic was not offensive is coming from a place of privilege.”

I didn’t claim that, so I’m not sure why you’re tacking that argument onto mine. 

With the word “pretend,” you seem quite close to claiming that I know better but I’m offering this as an argument in bad faith.  *Extremely* close.

I *was* offended by the ridiculous strawman argument that people who find rape jokes offensive believe rape jokes make people run out and commit rape right away.  That’s what the second comic was, a mocking refutation of an argument no one made, at least not in public; a characterization of the people who didn’t like the joke as excitable and gullible and wrong.

E.g.:

Unamused reader:  Please don’t make light of rape, I don’t like it and I believe it further minimizes it in a society that’s already shockingly insensitive to the real thing.

Rape joker, mockingly, in falsetto voice:  “Oh dear, if rape jokes continue, the world is not safe for womynnne like myself!!!  I shall be devastated, certain that none but myself can discern fantasy from reality, and must retreat to my fainting couch!!!  Because I am HYSTERICKALLE!!!!!!1!!!!”  [sfx: uterus dropping out, blubbering into darkness]

Comment #286: oldfeminist  on  08/18  at  01:43 AM

So…we’ve got a shit on of people tsk tsking over how humorless the people at Shakesville are. And we’ve got some dude treating us to a three-comment interpretative dancer performance of “But What About the Men?” And then we’ve got Mandolin pimping her writing and dismissing the idea that rape maybe should be taken more seriously than other things because apparently that’s too feminist or some thing. Wow. And then there’s all the dudes gleefully justifying the original joke, making excuses for their Nigels, and minimizing rape. Yeah. Great.

Comment #287: ginmar  on  08/18  at  10:28 AM

ginmar—you’re a reasonable person. If you wanted to discourage the casual, unthinking, but offensive use of rape in comics how would you do it?

Comment #288: Hector B.  on  08/18  at  01:00 PM

We seem to have here:
1) People who don’t find all rape jokes objectionable.
2) People who find all rape jokes, by which they mean “jokes that minimize rape,” objectionable.
3) People who find all rape jokes, by which they mean “jokes that mention rape,” objectionable.

The dispute, then, seems to be that some people say they’re in category 2 for one reason or another when they’re actually in category 3, and also whether the original joke minimizes or just mentions rape.

The poster at Shakesville was pretty clear aout being in category 3.

I’m not sure why it’s productive to write people out of feminism because they find this funny and/or because they don’t find it offensive. Or because they don’t put sugar in their porridge.

Comment #289: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/18  at  05:28 PM

Hershele, did anyone say “you’re not a feminist because you found it funny”?  Did I miss it?

Even if I found something funny, I could also recognize it was offensive.

Comment #290: oldfeminist  on  08/18  at  11:29 PM

And then we’ve got Mandolin pimping her writing….

And, given the implication of the word pimping, you find no problem casually using it in another context?

Comment #291: Danzig  on  08/19  at  02:16 AM

Oldfeminist, that was my reading of comment 159.

Comment #292: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/19  at  11:24 AM

Oh, yes…  coment 159 of 300.  Of course!

Comment #293: Eileen  on  08/19  at  03:06 PM

Eileen, I should know better than to wade into this, but there was also this:

I think Amanda is just so worried about being cool and showing that she is into sex etc. that any pretenses this is a feminist blog are over for me.
Comment #176: artemix on 08/16 at 12:32 PM

and your

So what’s the big deal?  Why still on about it days later?  What is it about rape culture that people find so yummy?  Is it the creamy caramel center?  Is there some treat hidden within that I just haven’t found yet?

which, while not as blunt as comments 159 and 176, certainly implies a fauxgressiveness or desire on the part of those defending the joke to perpetuate rape culture/be rewarded for doing so.

Considering most of the thread was about adults playing videogames, responses to criticism, and discussion of the second comic response, it is a little unfair to claim that it is only one comment out of all 300, especially when I personally found your hyperbole to be a much unfunnier rape joke than the PA comic.

Comment #294: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/19  at  03:48 PM

I wasn’t a big fan of 176 either, and I didn’t even notice 159 when it came along because it’s directly adjacent to the really interesting comment by Mighty Ponygirl.  I’m only responsible for my comment, which referred solely to the never-ending freak-out, did not strip anyone of any title they feel inclined to use, and contained no rape jokes.  By all means, let’s keep on and on and on about this though, because I’m sure not every humorless feminist has learned their lesson yet.

Comment #295: Eileen  on  08/19  at  04:08 PM

Eileen, the “benefits” of rape culture, or “yummy [..] creamy caramel center,” are different for men and women:
Men- the ability to rape with (near-)impunity
Women- getting raped.
Your comment implies that the male defenders of the PA comic want to rape and the female defenders want to get raped.  Yes, it is a rape joke.  I, personally, did not appreciate it.

If your point was that protecting the status quo (which includes rape culture) has benefits, your hyperbole worked against you. 

My point was not really to take a side in the back and forth over the original comment, but to take issue with your flippant response to Hershele Ostropoler’s reason for describing the “sides” of the argument that way.  There has, in fact, been more than one instance of “You’re not a feminist if you don’t agree with me” going on in this thread.  Reacting to that is not wrong or arguing with a strawman.  If you did not mean for your comment to imply that there was something wrong with someone who would defend the original comic, then why imply that everyone who does so is defending rape culture because they like it? 

I am certainly not out to teach “every humorless feminist” a lesson.  I stayed out of the argument regarding the first comic (and am attempting to continue to do so), but did take issue with what I perceived to be your vicious and disingenuous response to Hershele Ostropoler.  You admit that you noticed comment 176, but still decided to respond with “it was only once” when a second instance (that you had missed) was pointed out to you.  I actually spent some time deciding whether or not to respond.  When I saw that it was you that had previously made the rape culture = chocolate treat comparison, I decided that perhaps I had made a mistake in not telling you how offensive I had found that comparison when it first came along and that now was a good opportunity to point it out.

Comment #296: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/19  at  05:21 PM

And it is important to school me thus…  why?  This thread has devolved into complete gobbledy-gook, and I declare you the winner.

Comment #297: Eileen  on  08/19  at  05:31 PM

Why is it important to “school” any of the posters who disagreed with you?  Why was it important for you to comment in #299 or #303?  I explained why I responded in my comment, but just so it is very, very clear:

Personally, I felt that the discussion in this thread deserved better than leaving the “last word” on a thread to someone who was both misrepresenting the thread thus far and had themselves engaged in the offensive behavior in question.

Comment #298: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/19  at  07:06 PM

Shakesville asked for it.

Comment #299: sirkowski  on  08/20  at  10:04 PM
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