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Next entry: Circles: Islamic Agents Of Evil Previous entry: I’m Completely Sympathetic To Your Stupid Whiny Baby Shit

How *not* to write about sex addiction

By invoking a bullshit evo psych theory predicated on the ridiculous presumption that only men really enjoy and crave sex.  T. Byram Karasu may bring all sorts of pedigrees to his argument, but that doesn’t matter.  It’s still choad science that has no relationship to real science.  It’s hard to even get a handle on how stupid Karasu is being.

Sex addiction is simply a new name for the old evolutionary concept—the innate urge to impregnate as many females as possible. In this sense, every man is a sex addict or was one at some point in his life…..

Unlike addictions to alcohol, cocaine, and cigarettes, in which the craving is induced by external elements, sexual craving, by its nature, is an innate and natural phenomenon. And sex addiction is a specific situation—the frequency of erection and the intensity of orgasm—dependent on the person’s blood-level of testosterone. Man deals with that according to his physical, social, and financial conditions…...

At the least advantageous end of the spectrum, a man simply masturbates. In the best circumstances, women throw themselves at him. But in between these two extremes reside garden-variety marriages wherein the wife may complain about the husband’s sexual demand, and the man may seek lovers and/or prostitutes.

I don’t actually have a problem with denouncing the concept of “sex addiction”.  I’ve done it many times myself.  But nor do I think there’s a whole lot of reality in the idea that men and only men are these enormous victims of their outrageous desires that largely asexual women cannot even begin to understand.  Or that a woman’s expectation of monogamy from a man in exchange for monogamy from her is some sort of horrible oppression that stems from women’s inability to understand that men like sex.

Back when bullshit, evidence-free assertions about human sexuality from evo psych bullshitters began in the 60s or roundabout, there wasn’t any hesitation from these men in making wish fulfillment assertions about how men are naturally promiscuous and women are naturally monogamous, and therefore the only real relationship model that will work is one where men get to sleep around and women have to put up with it.  Nowadays, there’s a hesitation to come right out and say that women are naturally monogamous—-probably because the immediate problem of who do “naturally” promiscuous men sleep with will come up—-but that’s the insinuation of articles like this.  Feminists have forced evo psych bullshitters like Karasu to tacitly accept that women have a minimal, easily satisfied sex drive (he even painfully accepts that perhaps women might not want to castrate their husbands because we’d like to get laid oh so occasionally), but at the end of the day, they prefer to think of the world as one where men are just insatiable sexual creatures, and women put up with it because we are all prostitutes at heart, and we get paid off in actual cash or in wifely security.

I don’t like the framework around “sex addiction” not because I think that every man is a natural dog who will fuck every woman he sees if given the chance, and that women are fools to expect otherwise (or have the duty to milk our men 3-5 times a day to stop him—-most men wouldn’t want that, either).  I don’t like it because the framework demonizes sex itself, even as those who push it deny that.  Do I think people act out with sex?  Sure, but it’s usually in service of some other neurotic need.  Call Tiger Woods a “sex addict” distracts from the more mundane reality.  His type isn’t actually that uncommon—-ego monster plus a huge Madonna/whore complex. (Hard as it for the “all men are just dogs” crew to believe, but some men with serious Madonna/whore issues will even lose sexual desire for their wives or girlfriends, because they’ve been so conditioned to think fucking a woman is degrading her that they can’t bring themselves to degrade someone they genuinely love.)  The cure for a Madonna/whore complex is a little feminism, to stop thinking of sex as something men do to women that’s degrading, and to think of it as a mutual sharing of pleasure between individuals, an understanding evo psych bullshit wards off.  In fact, while theories like Karasu’s tend to offer the belief that men will fuck anything that moves on the surface, they encourage Madonna/whore complexes by painting women as either wives or prostitutes, but always women who trade sex for goodies. 

The cure for ego monster behavior?  Beats me.  Really seeing the people around you as human beings—-something that evo psych bullshit also wards off, by actively fighting off seeing the real complexity of human nature—-is probably really hard to do when you’re a world famous celebrity and no one around you sees you as a real human being, either. 

I will say this to evo psych bullshitters: Generalizing your experience (women not wanting to have sex with you unless you compensate them somehow) to all men and women tells people more about you than about all men and women.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:23 AM • (79) Comments

OK, evo-psych bullshit, but don’t these guys ever talk to real people? 

I just feel like evo-psych guys are Nice Guys(tm) who never have sex and only talk about sex with other Nice Guys (tm) in terms of the latest buddy flick and beer commercials.

They never seem to consider the fact that men exist who want to get married, who are happy to get married, and who don’t seem to be obsessed with having sex with everyone they see/raping women.

Women never really exist.

Comment #1: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/25  at  11:09 AM

Nowadays, there’s a hesitation to come right out and say that women are naturally monogamous—-probably because the immediate problem of who do “naturally” promiscuous men sleep with will come up—-but that’s the insinuation of articles like this.

Nah, no hesitation from PUAs, MRAs and the NiceGuys®—they just point to the exception known as “the nympho slut,” whose abnormal sexual appetite more than makes up for their sad world of ice queens, gold-diggers, sex-hating feminists, baby-mad women, and other “naturally monogamous” Madonnas and whores who, like them, view sex first and foremost as an economic transaction.

[and if the concept of a monogamous whore sounds strange, listen to some of these guys talk about women who are interested in a long-term relationship but dare to test different men in the sack before committing to one]

Comment #2: Gracchus.  on  02/25  at  11:12 AM

And sex addiction is a specific situation—the frequency of erection and the intensity of orgasm—dependent on the person’s blood-level of testosterone.

this particular version of bad science always annoyed me. Women also produce testosterone, just as men produce estrogen. Either hormone is (normally) produced at lower levels than in the opposite sex, but testosterone alone isn’t what makes a manly man…

Why are scientific illiterates allowed to prose on about scientific subjects? Can we get them out of the newspapers, blogs and teevee machines pretty please? Because someone who isn’t interested in the basic scientific facts cannot come to a correct conclusion about scientific matters (and that’s assuming that evopsych is science, which is something I’m not prepared to admit).

Comment #3: kodiak  on  02/25  at  11:27 AM

They never seem to consider the fact that men exist who want to get married, who are happy to get married

Get them in their cups and they often reveal that this is exactly the kind of man they are. Of course, their definition of “wife” amount to “a new mommy,” but that’s another issue.

Why are scientific illiterates allowed to prose on about scientific subjects? Can we get them out of the newspapers, blogs and teevee machines pretty please?

I don’t know about those awful blogs and Internets, but I’m sure the MSM, paragons of accountability and responsible journalism, will follow your advice if only to show that their brand has value enough for users to pay for their content. Any day now ...

Comment #4: Gracchus.  on  02/25  at  11:32 AM

Slightly off-topic, but it’s a good thing a certain someone wasn’t black or he’d have been forced to apologize for his sex addiction long ago: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article855671.ece

Comment #5: 3letterjon  on  02/25  at  11:54 AM

One begins to suspect that Mr. Karasu and his ilk have a hard time finding a date and that when they do, their dates are less than enthusiastic.  Certainly this representation has no resemblance to my experience of women’s sexuality.  The notion that men do not desire or benefit from monogamy is also bullshit.  Not all do (nor do all the women I have known), but many men, myself included, prefer monogamous relationships.

Comment #6: DrDick  on  02/25  at  11:55 AM

If “impregnate as many women as possible” is the goal, then why did humans develop complicated social structures like marriage, and why do most individuals tend to “pair off” - if not for life, for long periods of time?

It doesn’t even make any sense in terms of human history.  The idea is survival of enough offspring.  That means that humans, being humans, adapt to environmental conditions to attain that goal - including polyandrous and polygynous societies as strategies.  Fucking everything that moves doesn’t attain that goal in most situations.

Sex addition is a bit of a lame excuse for not doing what Wilt Chamberlain did: being honest with your self about who you are and what you want and making no apologies for it down the road.  Asshats like Tiger Woods want it both ways - wifey and kids at home AND the playboy lifestyle.  Then they play the “helpless victim of own desires/additions” card.  Bullshit.

Comment #7: Ms Kate  on  02/25  at  12:00 PM

And any freshman biology student can point out the difference between R and K reproductive strategies across vertebrates.

Comment #8: CBrachyrhynchos  on  02/25  at  12:03 PM

I’m just tired of the ever-new, ever-startling revelation that married people cheat on each other.  We’ve got Shakespearian Dramas based on Greek Tragedies that all revolve around a man or a woman stepping out on the SO for a new lover, and yet it continues to be shocking! headline news every six weeks after another random person boinks out of wedlock.

Call it “sex addiction”, call it “all men are dogs” / “all women all sluts”, call it whatever you damn want.  It was old news a thousand years ago, but the media still needs to run wall-to-wall 24/7 coverage of the latest affair as though we’re supposed to give a shit.

It’s just exhausting listening to the preening pop-psych phonies pretend they have something new to say on the subject that no one has ever heard before.

Comment #9: Zifnab  on  02/25  at  12:05 PM

Because the DSM-V is about to be released, there’s a big argument going on about the classification of “addictions” as a they pertain to a medical/psychological term. In theory, addictions should *only* be for things that literally cause physical withdrawal symptoms when a person doesn’t get what they’re addicted to. Everything else is generally referred to as habituating, because it forms a strong behavior pattern.

Gambling addictions, shopping addictions, sex addictions, video gaming addictions, porn addictions, etc, should all fall under the general banner of impulse control problems. We don’t come up with discrete variations on OCD (compulsive hand-washing disorder, compulsive straightening disorder, compulsive ritual behavior) We call it OCD and we then describe its symptoms. Sex addictions and the like are the exact same pathology: the inability to regulate one’s desires for immediate gratification over the potential social / financial / personal drawbacks. Even if you take away a kid’s Modern Warfare and he throws the Mother Of All Tantrums, that doesn’t mean he’s addicted. It means he has poor impulse control combined with anger management issues. When he starts developing the shakes and vomitting, then we can discuss his “addiction” to video games.

There’s a big push to get everything classified as “addiction” because addiction carries a certain social weight of the Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card so long as you are pursuing treatment. Most employers cannot fire someone when they’re addicted to something, they have to be sent to treatment and their seat has to be kept warm for them while they finish the program. If you’re a gigantic fuckup because you spend all of your time shopping for shoes when you should be getting the quarterly budget together, you’re a lot less screwed if you can claim that you’re suffering an “addiction” to shopping and you can buy yourself some time.

The problem with this model is because the psychiatric world does not officially recognize non-chemical addictions as addictions, there can be no official treatment. There is, however, treatment options for impulse control problems. So when someone says they are specifically entering treatment for “sex addiction,” there should be healthy skepticism about exactly what sort of accreditation that program has.

To paraphrase from memory: “Don’t try to tempt with hate sex, Liz. My support group is lousy with nymphos.”

Comment #10: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/25  at  12:18 PM

Sex addictions and the like are the exact same pathology: the inability to regulate one’s desires for immediate gratification over the potential social / financial / personal drawbacks.

Exactly so, and more elegantlly phrased than anything I’ve been able to come up with.

Of course, this will lead to diagnoses of IIC, or Impaired Impulse Control, which will, yanno, need its own rehab programs, and eventually a pill to control and medicate…..

Comment #11: firefall  on  02/25  at  12:32 PM

Sex addictions and the like are the exact same pathology: the inability to regulate one’s desires for immediate gratification over the potential social / financial / personal drawbacks. Even if you take away a kid’s Modern Warfare and he throws the Mother Of All Tantrums, that doesn’t mean he’s addicted. It means he has poor impulse control combined with anger management issues.

I understand the logic of what you’re saying, but it’s difficult for me to dismissively say that all that’s wrong with my nephew is that he has poor impulse control when he’s about to go into a residential psychiatric school because he literally can’t function if he has access to video games.  Won’t go to school, won’t eat, won’t shower, becomes physically violent if you try to take them away, plays until he literally passes out from exhaustion. 

His bigger problems are severe ADHD and bipolar, but that particular combination makes him especially prone to having extremely severe problems with poor impulse control, so saying, “Oh, he just has problems with impulse control” is ignoring the bigger picture.  His impulse control problems are a symptom of his psychiatric issues, not the cause of them.

Not to mention that his father is a drug addict who just happens to also be a gambling addict.  Since addicts seem to develop several addictions either concurrently or one after the other, it seems a little odd to me to claim that true addiction and these “impulse control” problems have absolutely nothing to do with one another and it’s just a total coincidence that they happen together in so many cases.

Comment #12: Mnemosyne  on  02/25  at  12:49 PM

But again, he does not have an addiction he has impulse control combined with anger management, ADHD, and the like. He will be treated for all of those things, but he will not be treated for addiction. I mean, you laid it all out there. It isn’t the videogames, it’s the entire kit -n- kaboodle of mental illness and poor environment.

And again, if your body’s functions do not react to the lack of the source of addiction, it is not an addiction. Poor impulse control often LEADS to addiction, so there’s your connection. If you have poor impulse control (or any other host of psychological problems that may lead to self-medication, like bipolar or ADHD), and can’t put down the Dewer’s then your body is going to develop a physical dependency on the chemical and then you’re going to have an actual ADDICTION. It’s like saying that we have to call obesity diabetes because a lot of diabetics are obese. They’re not the same thing.

You’re falling into the same mental trap that I described: if it’s not “addiction” then somehow it’s not a real psychiatric problem. But the problem is that if it *is* addiction without a chemical basis, then it *isn’t* a classified psychiatric problem, and you should be extremely cautious of anyone who claims they have a treatment for videogame addictions because they’re probably pushing snakeoil.

Comment #13: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/25  at  12:58 PM

On the other hand, why do we pretend, as a society, that there is something WRONG with a man or a woman who wants to do anything and everything with everything that moves?

The problem isn’t with the “philandering” ... the problem is with the lying and cheating.  Get rid of the “ideal” that somebody HAS TO BE MARRIED and maintain that facade while screwing for variety and many of the negative aspects vanish.

Not that such a lifestyle holds much interest for me personally ... I just don’t see condemning it in honest people.

Comment #14: Ms Kate  on  02/25  at  01:05 PM

One begins to suspect that Mr. Karasu and his ilk have a hard time finding a date and that when they do, their dates are less than enthusiastic.  Certainly this representation has no resemblance to my experience of women’s sexuality.

Your expectations form your experiences far more than your experiences form your expectations.  If you can’t think of yourself as desireable, you’re not going to believe anyone else is attracted to you either.  Really, a foundational stone of being a Nice Guy.  (Certainly that, plus “women should find it offensive that I’d think so lowly of them to think they might date me” was really the foundation of my Nice Guy ism).

It’s the same reason why if my girlfriend refers to me as sexy, say, I’ll retain no memory of it.  Can’t make sense of it, so I end up dismissing it as inexplicable for lack of alternative options.

Comment #15: Brian  on  02/25  at  01:09 PM

But again, he does not have an addiction he has impulse control combined with anger management, ADHD, and the like. He will be treated for all of those things, but he will not be treated for addiction.

Actually, he will be treated for the addiction concurrently with his other issues because it’s reached the point where it can’t be ignored.  Trying to treat his bipolar disorder and ADHD without addressing his problem with videogames is begging for failure.

These are not issues that can be separated out.  Yes, if someone was claiming that all they had to do was treat his videogame addiction and everything else would be solved, they would be selling snake oil.  However, anyone who tells us that they can treat his psychiatric problems and then he’ll be able to play videogames problem-free in the future is also selling snake oil.  Unfortunately, we now know that from experience—he had them taken away during a previous treatment, he got better, and the therapist said that a deal was a deal and my in-laws had to give the video games back to him.  Now he’s worse than ever, which is why he has to be sent three states away before he ends up in jail.  Because, after all, video games aren’t a real addiction so any problems he had with them must not really exist.

Comment #16: Mnemosyne  on  02/25  at  01:09 PM

No, they aren’t a real addiction.

His treatment with the previous psychiatrist was a failure, and/or his home environment (which you’ve already described as dysfunctional) was not able to adequately regulate his rehabilitation. Re-habituation is not addiction. Obesity is not diabetes, smoking is not cancer.

Comment #17: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/25  at  01:15 PM

I wonder how many “sex addicts” are married men trying to stop their same sex attraction.  My guess is one day Ross Douthat will write a column about his days in sex rehab.

Comment #18: John Rove  on  02/25  at  01:18 PM

Sex addition is a bit of a lame excuse for not doing what Wilt Chamberlain did: being honest with your self about who you are and what you want and making no apologies for it down the road.

Apparently, Wilt the Stilt wasn’t being particularly honest, either. But your point stands concerning the de-shaming of non-monogamy.

And any freshman biology student can point out the difference between R and K reproductive strategies across vertebrates.

True, but you have to take into account the frightened, petty mindset that an r-environment is the natural state of humanity, even in the U.S. ca. 2010. PUAs and their ilk love to posit that we’re still living in the jungle, because it’s the only way they can explain their own on-going failures in what is in reality an advanced K-environment.

Or, in more pithy terms, if one tends to think like rattus norvegicus, one tends to act like one, with predictable results.

Comment #19: Gracchus.  on  02/25  at  01:19 PM

Re-habituation is not addiction.

And if, as seems quite likely, his looking for a new thing to get re-habituated leads to him doing heroin, would that finally be an addiction worthy of treatment?

This is what I’m not understanding:  are you claiming that people who get easily habituated to things never become addicts?  Or that addiction is a completely different syndrome, so once an addict is in recovery, there’s no possibility of them becoming habituated to something else if it’s not another true addiction?  Because that really, really doesn’t seem to reflect the reality I’ve seen in my friends and family members.  People who were what you consider “true” addicts get easily hooked on other “non-addictive” things if they aren’t careful, and it’s something they have to keep an eye on their whole lives.

You’re talking as though these are unrelated syndromes when they seem to be part of a continuum.  Unless, of course, you’re arguing that it was a total coincidence that my recovering alcoholic friend became an anorexic, or that alcoholism is not a true addiction so her only problem was impulse control.

Comment #20: Mnemosyne  on  02/25  at  01:31 PM

I always wonder why the Evo-Psych guys only ever come up with theories that excuse the bad behaviors of men, and enforce the idea that women should just suck it up.  How come they never come up with any theories that tell men to quit acting like assholes and be real people?

I think that’s the most telling reason why Evo-Psych should not be taken seriously.  The entire “discipline” is focused on telling my bitch ass to shut up and get back in the kitchen.

Comment #21: GeekGirlsRule  on  02/25  at  01:37 PM

Mnemo, I think they used to categorize these things as “physiological dependence” and “psychological dependence”.  The former is an addiction, the latter is apparently not classified as such anymore.

Comment #22: Ms Kate  on  02/25  at  01:37 PM

I should probably say, I’m not trying to be a bitch here (for once) because this is something that is going on in my family right now, as in my nephew is (hopefully) getting on the plane for Montana this morning, unless he decided to refuse to go and run away.  In which case, I have no idea what the fuck we’re going to do, because his grandfather is recovering from brain surgery, his mother is on disability, his father is about to get out of jail for the umpteenth time, and G and I are 2,000 miles away.

From what MP is saying it sounds like you could have two people who are addicted to heroin and one will be able to kick it and move on while the other goes and gets habituated to something else because they’re not an addict, they’re someone with impulse control problems.  Is this actually the current medical thinking?

Comment #23: Mnemosyne  on  02/25  at  01:44 PM

I’m suggesting nothing of the sort. You’re reading what I’m writing and declaring I’m saying the opposite.

Addiction by definition means that the body has a chemical requirement for the substance, and that not having that substance will result in the body’s revolt in the form of obvious physical symptoms.

If there is no chemical component, there is no addiction. That’s just how it works.

If your nephew turned away from videogames and started shooting heroin, then he would have an addiction to heroin that resulted from his impulse control problems. The impulse control problem is not the heroin addiction, the heroin addiction is the heroin addiction. If you take him off the heroin, he’s still going to have impulse control problems. He might turn to drinking, or smoking, or some other chemically addictive substance, or he might look into habituating means of distraction, like playing videogames or surfing for porn.

In a habituated person, the person’s body is not relying on a chemical to function. Their brains want a certain activity to the point where they can’t control themselves.

This is a huge difference in terms of treatment. This is why we have things like methodone clinics, but we don’t have clinics where someone can go and get a quick Peggle fix to get them through the day.

I urge you to unbox your need to classify what your nephew has as an addiction. Just because it’s not an addiction does not mean that he’s a bad person, or that he’s irrevocably broken, or that he is not suffering from serious issues. I’m not saying that, no one would say that. He obviously needs help, and the love and support of his family. This is exactly what I was talking about in my first post: We have this need to classify everything as addiction because we’re worried that then and only then will people take it seriously, and there’s also a degree of displacement: the problem isn’t the nephew, it’s the videogames. Because you love and care for your family, the addiction diagnosis is going to be more attractive for that very reason.

It may be that your nephew Never Again Can Play Videogames. But again, that does not mean he’s addicted to videogames, it means that his impulse control problems are so severe that he cannot help but re-habituate.

Comment #24: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/25  at  01:45 PM

From what MP is saying it sounds like you could have two people who are addicted to heroin and one will be able to kick it and move on while the other goes and gets habituated to something else because they’re not an addict, they’re someone with impulse control problems.  Is this actually the current medical thinking?

That’s not what I was getting from the definitions given in this thread. It seemed to me that addicts are people who expience specific physiological responses when they are removed from the addictive substance (and those responses would be the same across all people addicted to the substance, like the shakes and convulsions of heroin withdrawl), whereas people with impulse control issues (generally coupled with other psychological difficulties) are those who may experience the same craving for something bad for them (whatever that substance may be) but who do not experience predictable withdrawl symptoms and therefore are treated in a seperate manner.

Maybe they need to “rebrand” the word Addiction to make the distinction clear, but I think that what they are trying to get at with this is that there are two very different problems (which I’ll admit can happen concurrently) that need to be treated in different ways as one presents predictable physical responses that need to be accounted for (for example - stopping opiates cold-turkey can kill you depending on how dependant one is on them) so that people *can* recieve appropriate treatment for the problems they *are* having (instead of going through a program which addresses problems they do not have, leaving them to think that they’re fine since they aren’t going through what the other are…).

Comment #25: kodiak  on  02/25  at  01:54 PM

If someone shoots heroin and becomes addicted, they very often can not be fully rehabilitated by removing the chemical dependency.  Put them in a room to kick for a few days, or sedate them while their body adjusts ... it doesn’t address the impulse control and/and other issues (like attempts to self-medicate for bipolar mania) that made shooting heroin attractive to begin with.

The variations in the “front end” issues is what mark the differences in treatment here.  For some, proper treatment of any of a wide variety of underlying medical (Curt Cobain likely had severe IBS which responded to heroin) or psychological issues (could be impulse control, mania, depression, etc.) will result in full rehabilitation.  But you gotta kick the actual chemical addiction first.

The same goes for nicotine and smoking.  People can cleanse themselves of the nicotine addiction, but they might start smoking again in times of stress.

Comment #26: Ms Kate  on  02/25  at  02:00 PM

Mnemosyne, I’m not the original commenter, but I think what’s being said is this:

“True” addiction, the kind that comes with physical withdrawal symptoms, and destructive habitual behaviors that LOOK like addiction, both stem from poor impulse control. Both require treatment if they’re messing up someone’s life. Managing the impulse control problem is key to not repeating the behavior, whether or not there’s a physical syndrome involved.

Note that “managing the impulse control problem” may involve permanently avoiding the behavior or stimulus, whatever it is. And if the treatment stops at taking away the whatever, and doesn’t address impulse control on a deeper level, it’s INCREDIBLY likely that a person will substitute some other substance or behavior that provides a similar reward.

But nobody’s going to get the DTs from lack of video games the way they would from lack of alcohol at a certain intake level. Nobody is going to have the physical symptoms of heroin withdrawal from being forcibly kept away from the blackjack table. And the nicotine patch won’t do a damn thing to change the behavior of someone who’s trying to learn not to chase every piece of tail he sees.

It’s a medical difference between “addiction” and “habituation,” not a practical difference in how the behaviors play out.

Comment #27: Rikibeth  on  02/25  at  02:02 PM

Mnem, your argument is of degree, not kind, and I think shifting the kind because of the degree is probably not helpful for sufferers.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/25  at  02:06 PM

I really don’t think many “sex addicts” like Woods have poor impulse control, anyway.  I think they really don’t care.  Ascribing his behavior to lack of control implies he didn’t want to do what he did on some level, and I’m skeptical.  He’s sorry he got caught, I’m sure.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/25  at  02:08 PM

I think to really take sexual addiction seriously, there needs to be some element of exposing yourself to unreasonable health risks, or subjecting yourself to financial ruin.  I think there needs to be something self-destructive about it, other than being indifferent to the feelings of others.  Selfishly pursuing your own self interest isn’t addiction (or, in light of MP’s definition of addiction, some other condition that requires the sympathy of others).  If the only negative repercussion is that it harms other people, then you’re an asshole, not an addict.

Comment #30: Wallace  on  02/25  at  02:10 PM

Which is to say, the definitional issues about whether or not someone with control issues about video games, while interesting, doesn’t have much to do with married men who enjoy sleeping around hiding behind the term “addict” when caught.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/25  at  02:12 PM

Wallace, in no way, shape, or form am I suggesting that people who act out sexually and feel they have little control over it don’t have real problems.  I’m not dismissing their deep-seated issues.  Narcissism, depression, etc.

But making sex the bad guy is not how they’re going to get helped.  “Sex addiction” is a term that really took off in evangelical circles, because they see sex as this dangerous substance, and it’s getting mainstream attention mainly because it’s a useful way to demonize human sexuality and give men who simply feel entitled to do what they want cover to save face when caught.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/25  at  02:16 PM

Amanda @29: Hrmm…. I dunno. I’m turning it over in my head.

Very few people recognize addiction/habituation on their own. It takes something bad for them to realize they have a problem: being monstrously hungover on the day of an important presentation, getting kicked out of school because you spent so much time playing videogames you failed all your subjects, getting caught having sex outside of your supposedly monogamous marriage.

Woods got caught, and is now admitting he has a problem. We can either believe him, and believe that his legitimate mental disorder was exacerbated by his fame and access to starfucking pussy, or we can assume he’s just looking for the easy way out of being called out in public for being a philanderer. It’s up to the individual making the judgment call. Really, both interpretations are valid. My personal take is more to the former, because I’m a big softie (stop laughing!), and also because it seems like he’s genuinely upset about how his behavior has impacted his family (esp his children), and he’s not placing a priority on his career while he gets his shit together. Maybe he just has a fantastic publicist who’s advising him to play a part until this all blows over and he can get back on the links. I don’t know us plebes will ever know for sure.

Comment #33: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/25  at  02:17 PM

Ms Kate, that’s why amongst the upper-classes, a marriage where both participants are monogamous is a nine-day wonder, they know full well that with leisure time and money, with most people it’s merely a question of when, not if, they use those resources to have an affair. 

My grandmother married grandfather Monk on the rebound from breaking up with her fiancee when he made it clear that his ‘mistress’ would be a part of his life after their marriage, she being Catholic, resolutely middle-class, and convinced that she could do better.

Get rid of the “ideal” that somebody HAS TO BE MARRIED and maintain that facade while screwing for variety and many of the negative aspects vanish.

What’s interesting is that adultery started rising after 1750 in German-speaking Europe, and that it takes different forms in different countries, as with the Taiwanese adulterer, who according to one researcher I’ve read, tells his mistress how good he treats his wife because he doesn’t want her to think that he’s a heartless bastard….......

Comment #34: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/25  at  02:22 PM

Mighty, I guess I think it’s mostly a cover, because the real issue of how he sees women as objects wasn’t addressed at all.

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/25  at  02:26 PM

As for the impulse/habituating aspect of sex addiction, anytime the megachurches are pushing something it should be looked at carefully, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

Gambling addiction makes no sense to me, because I’m risk-averse. Once during a layover in Las Vegas, I took the monorail through the strip (which included a few trips through the casino floors). I looked down and saw regiments of people standing in front of slot machines, vacantly feeding their money in and staring at the blinking lights like zombies.

For me, I could have gotten about the same experience of minimal movement and staring vacantly at flashing lights for a lot less money (when you look at hours of entertainment / cost) by playing videogames. I’d like to think I don’t have issues with videogames, but I have gotten habituated to things (just to blow Mnemosyne’s mind, I was habituated to drinking but not addicted), in fact, I can get habituated to things pretty easily. Case in point, this blog. smile  So I can definitely appreciate videogame habituation and surfing habituation, but gambling habituation is as foreign to me as Sanskrit.

Sex “addiction:” absolutely no point of reference. I enjoy a good orgasm as much as the next person. but have no desire to go out and get as much of it as I can with as many people as I can, but if I can be habituated to Pandagon, I can see how someone else could be habituated to sex.

Comment #36: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/25  at  02:26 PM

There’s a definite point to be made there, but we could also argue that because his fame allowed him unprecedented access to women and he was able to select his particular “type” (and all of the objectification that goes along with that). Someone who’s habituated to gambling may prefer poker or slots, but play blackjack if they just need to get that risk high and poker and slots aren’t available. Tiger never had to worry about blackjack being the only thing available. It was all poker all the time. Get it? *rim shot*

I won’t blame you for banning me after that. :p

Comment #37: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/25  at  02:32 PM

And I think the reason that the real problem with Woods’ attitudes is being ignored is that society by and large shares his attitudes about women, that the mistresses are “skanks” who don’t deserve any real regard, that wives deserve loyalty as a reward for performing well at wifely duties, and that the marriage contract should be honored for your reputation as much and maybe even more than out of human kindness towards the wife.  Society assumes a male sexuality only has one mode, and that’s masturbatory, and that sex with women is only better because of the physical sensations, and not because women’s personalities and presence can be enjoyable in and of itself.  And that tenderness shown to women is an act men put on out of chivalry, not out of genuine feeling.

Which is why it’s both sad and laughable how many mistresses are acting all butthurt about his “betrayal”, especially the one represented by Gloria Allred.  I’d think it’s fucking obvious that a man cheating on his trophy wife with you is only feigning regard for your feelings because he thinks that’s what men do, but a lot of women have never really considered that they should expect real feelings to exist behind proclamations of feelings from men.

Comment #38: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/25  at  02:33 PM

So “Celebrity Sex Rehab with Dr. Drew” was all a sham, because there’s no such thing as “sex addiction?”

Comment #39: liberalrob  on  02/25  at  02:53 PM

Ugh, why can’t people understand basic evolutionary theory?  I’ll have to blame the religious wingnuts for this one.  It’s their fault that “evolution” has become a dirty word in many schools, and we shouldn’t be so surprised when the general public has no how evolution actually works.

Having lots and lots of offspring is not always evolutionarily advantageous to males!  If a man impregnates then neglects 10 kids and they all die before adulthood, then he’s behind the curve.  If a man has only 2 children and they both survive because he contributes to their care, then he’s way ahead.  This isn’t a difficult concept!  Is everyone really so stupid about basic math?  Having kids is about much more than just creating them.  I won’t claim that it’s never beneficial for a male to impregnate as many females as possible, but it’s certainly not the ideal situation for most humans.

On the other hand, females can often benefit from promiscuity and love of sex, even within monogamy.  If a female has offspring with several different males, that can increase her chances that her own genes will get paired up with successful genes.  And of course, if one kid’s father dies or neglects him and she’s fully responsible for their care, at least some of the other offspring will have fathers who contribute to their survival, increasing the chances that her genes will survive by being paired with the genes that the kid’s father contributes to maintaining.

None of these are difficult concepts to grasp.  This is a poor reflection on science education.

Comment #40: bananacat  on  02/25  at  02:55 PM

I really don’t think many “sex addicts” like Woods have poor impulse control, anyway.  I think they really don’t care.

There certainly is something to that, I’m sure.  Just like paranoids can have real enemies, however, being an entitled asshole doesn’t necessarily mean you also don’t have a real problem.

Comment #41: liberalrob  on  02/25  at  03:02 PM

And I think the reason that the real problem with Woods’ attitudes is being ignored is that society by and large shares his attitudes about women, that the mistresses are “skanks” who don’t deserve any real regard, that wives deserve loyalty as a reward for performing well at wifely duties, and that the marriage contract should be honored for your reputation as much and maybe even more than out of human kindness towards the wife.

Or maybe it’s (also) because as a society we want our heroes to be icons of purity and moral rectitude (as the “mainstream” defines it), and when one of our heroes turns out to be as fucked up as anyone else it’s jarring (to some) and an opportunity to tear down that icon to show how corrupt the other tribe is (for others).

Comment #42: liberalrob  on  02/25  at  03:10 PM

Which is to say, the definitional issues about whether or not someone with control issues about video games, while interesting, doesn’t have much to do with married men who enjoy sleeping around hiding behind the term “addict” when caught.

It does to the extent that, frankly, I think they’re cheapening the term.  You have people who truly have genuine problems controlling their impulse to have sex, and they can suffer a lot of very negative consequences from that.  That’s not the same as a married guy who likes to cheat on his wife and hides behind “addiction” as an excuse.

It’s sort of like how some middle- and upper-middle class parents shop around for an ADD diagnosis for their kid so s/he can get extra time to take tests while poorer kids who genuinely need treatment for actual ADD and other mental illnesses get shafted.  Some people really do have the problem, and it pisses me off when people treat it like a get out of jail free card because, hey, it’s not a real addiction.  Especially since, given that my nephew is mixed-race, if he does end up in jail, he is never going to escape the criminal justice system and any treatment he’s currently getting for his disorders will stop.

Comment #43: Mnemosyne  on  02/25  at  03:52 PM

There’s one important thing to realize: once you’ve got really solid habituation, the impulse-control argument doesn’t apply the way that a common understanding of its words would suggest, because the thing you’re going after (to the deteriment of longterm goals) is not really gratification as most people understand it. Gratificaion isn’t just a temporary cessation of cravings.

Comment #44: paul  on  02/25  at  03:53 PM

catgirl@40:  Yes.  100%.  For it to be good science it has to reflect reality.  There’s absolutely no reason we can’t use science responsibly to explore the topics of gender relations.  It’s when it’s misused to reinforce uninformed opinion that we get into dangerous waters.

geekgirlsrule@21:

I always wonder why the Evo-Psych guys only ever come up with theories that excuse the bad behaviors of men, and enforce the idea that women should just suck it up.  How come they never come up with any theories that tell men to quit acting like assholes and be real people?

I think that’s the most telling reason why Evo-Psych should not be taken seriously.  The entire “discipline” is focused on telling my bitch ass to shut up and get back in the kitchen.

I think I may have brought it up before on a previous evo-psych thread, but it bears repeating:  there’s a real disconnect between real research by people like Sarah Hrdy and the bad journalism/popular science writing about the field.  Some of the best research in the field of gender has come out of the disciplines of evolutionary psychology and sociobiology, but since it’s not what the self-help asshats like Karasu want to use to sell mass-market books, it seldom makes its way out of academic circles and into the mainstream media speculative science fiction pages. 

Unfortunately, Hrdy’s work has two strikes against it at the outset, from their point of view—it specifically contradicts the jocular alpha-male dominated view of human prehistory that they espouse; and possibly worse, it was written by a woman.

As far as Karasu’s notion of sex-addiction as impregnation urge is concerned:  I find it dizzying how he can go from one extreme of overgeneralizing asshole to another without even passing through the middle ground.  Amanda’s exactly right—it would feel more genuine of the entire spectacle weren’t being sold to us as a morality play about the proper roles of wives and husbands as three dollars a copy in the supermarket checkout aisles.

Comment #45: jamie d  on  02/25  at  04:14 PM

I’m on Team Mnemosyne.

Mighty Ponygirl, I understand what you are saying about phsyiological vs psychological dependence, but those ideas belong to a world where there is this idea that the body and mind are separate.  There is more and more evidence that that distinction is false (something that the ancient Indians, for example, have known for many millenia).

Another good example is the effect of stress on the body.  Something that used to be dismissed by most dr.s is now widely understood to be very real.  There are several studies that show that abuse survivors are less healthy on average and have a tendency for certain illnesses.

Sure, substance abuse can have physical symptoms- but so can other kinds of addictions - I can personally attest to that. 

Also - why is it so hard for you to believe that some clinics can effectively treat gaming addiction?  The mind, like other organs, can be trained.  Perhaps you should read a little bit about Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or Alexander’s Technique.

Personally, I don’t really care what people want to call it as long as it’s taken seriously.  But I always wonder about those who vehemently argue against the use of the word ‘addict’ for addictions to anything other than alcohol and drugs.  As I mentioned before, scientifically the term is vague so why do you care so much? 

I can’t help thinking that it has something to do with the prevailing prejudice against admitting that mental health issues are ‘real’ and not about someone being spoilt.  But I don’t think that you hold those views so I’m really curious.

Comment #46: Lurker  on  02/25  at  04:34 PM

Lurker—I don’t believe that gaming habituation can’t be treated. I have a real problem with people who are supposed to be advancing the cause of mental health using terms like “addiction” which are the wrong fucking term for the problem being taken seriously as medical professionals, because there are consequences. When we start talking about every little habituated problem as being “an addiction” we water down what, exactly, addiction means.

Americans have a hard enough time sorting our shit out with regards to mental health diagnoses and a lot of it is steeped in ablism, and it’s infuriating. If someone told me they were being treated for schizophrenia because they have multiple personalities, I would wish them best of luck with their quack. Because most Americans still don’t understand that schizophrenia is a completely different illness from multiple personality disorder. But yet how often do we use the term “schizophrenic” to describe someone whose personalities swing wildly between personas?

We use the term “Bipolar” all the time. I hear people all the time telling me they’re bipolar or someone they know is bipolar. Real bipolar disorder is rare. People with bipolar disorder have extreme high and low peaks. During the manic stage they can literally run around for days without sleeping, and during the depressive phase they cannot get out of bed. Not that it’s difficult and they hit the snooze button a few more times, they are practically catatonic and will. not. budge. for days. What most people have is not, in fact, true bipolar disorder, it’s a milder form called cyclothymia (or, if they tend to be more on the depressive end of the scale, dysthymia)—which is characterized by the same peak/trough cycles over long periods of time, but are not marked by the most severe highs and lows of true bipolar disorder. From what Mnemosyne described, it sounds like her nephew may be true bipolar if his troughs are as deep as his peaks are high. Or my favorite, which is someone describing a person who suffers from moment-to-moment erratic behavior as being bipolar. This is not the diagnosis. A person who switches hourly or daily between being high as a kite and nasty and depressed as shit is suffering from mood swings and a likely chemical imbalance, or possibly severe Borderline personality disorder, but not manic-depression.

Bipolar, Schizophrenia, and Addiction are all used far too loosely in our culture, often as a perjorative, and all of these things require different kinds of treatment. So fuck yes, classification is important, for the successful treatment of all. And while the mind certainly has the ability to influence the body, there are serious limits, and at a certain point you have to accept that the body’s processes are not completely hostage to the mind. When someone has a heart attack, treatment focuses on the chest and the cardiovascular system, not the brain. Chemical addiction pretty much always has a mental habituation component to it, but it’s not the habituation that’s causing the DTs.

My favorite example of classification definition creep is PMS.  When PMS was first described, it was intended to describe a woman who has serious pre-menstrual mood swings as well as extreme physical symptoms—inability to walk due to cramps, serious bloating, etc. Now PMS pretty much means “a woman who disagrees with you.” So we have PMDD now, which is now what PMS was originally supposed to be, and there’s a huge clamor by women to have *that* diagnosis when in fact they may have one of the mood disorders like cyclothymia. Because PMDD is “hormonal” whereas bipolar and cyclothymia are “mental” and women would much rather be accused of having broken hormones than broken brains because we’re so hung up on how sexy and important our mental illness is.

But more than that, the “addiction” label, as I stated in my first comment, contains a very specific set of protections within it. If you enter treatment for addiction, you can’t get fired unless you have a very specific contract (like something that requires a security clearance). People clamor for addiction labels because they want those protections. And I can’t really blame them, but at the same time, when you have someone who is struggling to overcome a chemical dependency, and suddenly you’ve got a bunch of people who are struggling with various degrees of impulse control calling themselves addicts, there’s going to be backlash against all addicts. This is wrong. We shouldn’t classify someone who neglects their job so they can go argue on a blog in the same category as someone who will have vomiting, diarrhea, shakes, chills, and “ants under the skin” while they get the heroin out of their system. We’re not doing either side any favors when we do this.

Comment #47: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/25  at  05:17 PM

As to cognitive therapy, I’m a huge fan of it. But the problem is chicken/egg. Often chemical imbalances in the brain are part of the coping mechanism for poor environment (either cognitive or behavioral), and it’s important to get the chemical stuff straightened out while you work on the cognitive/behavioral problems. One without the other is not going to work out.

Psychosomatic and somatoform disorders tend to be localized and targeted. The symptoms of withdrawal from a chemical addiction are not localized and targeted.

Comment #48: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/25  at  05:21 PM

Getting back to Karasu may be off-topic at this point but I would encourage anyone with a strong stomach to click on the link, just to get a sense of ev-psych in the MSM ca. 2010.  The piece is short enough for a quick read—and BREATHTAKINGLY stupid, especially when you consider the writer’s respectable job title.  Amanda’s paraphrase of it was charitable.

Comment #49: Unree  on  02/25  at  05:30 PM

And any freshman biology student can point out the difference between R and K reproductive strategies across vertebrates.

Sadly, most of them in the United States cannot do this.  A lot of it has to do with creationists getting on school boards.  Even though teaching evolution isn’t outright banned in most high schools, a lot of teachers or administrators will avoid it so they don’t offend creationists, or to avoid the “controversy”.  In schools that require teaching it, often creationists teachers will do their best to teach as little as possible about it.  Then you have to remember that in some schools, basic science classes aren’t even required.  In my high school, a lot of students chose to take the easy science courses, which were so dismally useless that I don’t think they even learned the meaning of “vertebrate” let alone evolution or reproductive strategies.  Science education sucks pretty bad in this country, especially when it comes to evolution.

Comment #50: bananacat  on  02/25  at  05:38 PM

some women enjoy sex? say it ain’t so! all women are madonna-like virgins, who magically conceive the moment they get married. or so i was taught in catholic school.

true story: my wife and i were going to be married in the catholic church. we were required to have “pre-marital counseling”, which consisted of meeting with the very young priest who was to marry us. all during the one meeting, he kept making references to the “marital act”. i had no clue what the fuck he was talking about, but didn’t say anything, because i didn’t want to appear to be a complete moron. as we drove home, i asked my wife if she knew what he was talking about. she looked at me as though i was, in fact, a complete moron and she couldn’t believe she was actually preparing to marry me. i paraphrase her response: “sex, you idiot!”

in spite of that rocky start, we’ve stayed married for nearly 25 years. turns out, she likes sex too. who knew?

“sex addiction” is a bullshit, medical sounding term for “i like to fuck women (or men), in addition to my spouse, but i got caught.”

at least clinton didn’t use that ridiculous line, not that he should have had to.

Comment #51: cpinva  on  02/25  at  05:43 PM

every man is a sex addict

Translation: T. Byram Karasu can’t write without whacking off a bit to get his testosterone pumped up, and he can’t bear the guilt of it.

Comment #52: SteveM  on  02/25  at  05:55 PM

Ugh, why can’t people understand basic evolutionary theory?  I’ll have to blame the religious wingnuts for this one.  It’s their fault that “evolution” has become a dirty word in many schools, and we shouldn’t be so surprised when the general public has no how evolution actually works.

Having lots and lots of offspring is not always evolutionarily advantageous to males!  If a man impregnates then neglects 10 kids and they all die before adulthood, then he’s behind the curve.  If a man has only 2 children and they both survive because he contributes to their care, then he’s way ahead.  This isn’t a difficult concept!  Is everyone really so stupid about basic math?  Having kids is about much more than just creating them.  I won’t claim that it’s never beneficial for a male to impregnate as many females as possible, but it’s certainly not the ideal situation for most humans.

No, you’re misunderstanding the idea of the “sneaky fucker” strategy.

i, Firstly, if you raise the kids you have with your wife, then going out and impregnating other women is a bonus - you still have a normal family being raised as you say, plus the chance of some surviving by-blows elsewhere.

ii, Better still, if you manage to knock up someone else’s wife - lay a cuckoo’s egg in the nest - then you have a double win.  They raise your bundle-o-genes while you’re playing the dutiful father at home.  The variant of this is when social support (such as a welfare state or a matrilinial society) lets women raise kids without fathers.  Going out, impressing, and knocking up as many women as possible becomes a good strategy.

In the long term, you’re going to have marriage patterns set up based on the gender ratio, and the need for surplus males (strangely enough, polygamous societies tend to be more war-like.  Funny that). Individuals, however, both male and female, can benefit by cheating on this as long as they’re not discovered.

Comment #53: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/25  at  06:36 PM

There already is a pill that modulates impulse control.  It’s Ritalin.

Comment #54: saraeanderson  on  02/25  at  06:57 PM

Mighty Ponygirl -

Mostly you convinced me, but then why say this?

“We shouldn’t classify someone who neglects their job so they can go argue on a blog in the same category as someone who will have vomiting, diarrhea, shakes, chills, and “ants under the skin” while they get the heroin out of their system.”

You are assuming that people with compulsions (that’s your prefered term) are suffering less and therefore deserve less sympathy and help from society than drug addicts.  That’s all kinds of wrong.

p.s. - there are a lot of people with physical disabilities that are not recognized.  I have all the following - vomiting, shakes, chills, and “ants under the skin - and NOT from drugs.  Just from a crap immune system.  Your discussion makes it seem like right now people with “real” ailments get help, as they should, while it’s those whiny people without real issues who are trying to ruine it for them.

Comment #55: Lurker  on  02/25  at  07:10 PM

And I can’t really blame them, but at the same time, when you have someone who is struggling to overcome a chemical dependency, and suddenly you’ve got a bunch of people who are struggling with various degrees of impulse control calling themselves addicts, there’s going to be backlash against all addicts.

Whoa.  Hang on a second here.  You’re saying that people with physical addictions have real problems, but people who have other mental disorders do not?

You keep talking about “impulse control” and “habituation” like we’re discussing bad habits.  Do you really think that, say, a gambling addiction that leads to someone losing their house is the same as someone who bites their nails and all they have to do is use their willpower to get over it?

I find that especially weird because you’re usually one of the most vocal people on here when it comes to obesity issues and yet you slap down anyone who even implies that obese people might have problems with impulse control.

Comment #56: Mnemosyne  on  02/25  at  08:19 PM

Everyone taking issue with Mighty Ponygirl seems to be conflating “physical” with “real” or “serious” but I think she really is carefully not saying that. The end result of having your life fucked up by a physical addiction or of having your life fucked up by a non-physical dependence/compulsion is the same: your life is fucked up. And I think we can all agree that’s bad.

But acting like the mechanisms through which your life is fucked up in either case are identical is unhelpful and inaccurate. Even if, phenotypically, having an impulse control problem is identical to having an addiction, when trying to diagnose or treat the two things it seems important to distinguish between them.

I think it’s valuable to keep the two cases separate, and it’s valuable to use the correct term for each (if only for the sake of the many medical professionals that each may require, so they can have a language in common) while still keeping in mind that a life is being fucked up in either case, and that person seriously needs help.

Comment #57: Bagelsan  on  02/25  at  08:33 PM

Which brings us back to this, from Mighty Ponygirl:

But more than that, the “addiction” label, as I stated in my first comment, contains a very specific set of protections within it. If you enter treatment for addiction, you can’t get fired unless you have a very specific contract (like something that requires a security clearance). People clamor for addiction labels because they want those protections.

Emphasis mine.  It may be more scientifically accurate to distinguish between chemical dependency and psychosomatic dependency, but in the real world of insurance and employers it is probably better not to…

Comment #58: liberalrob  on  02/25  at  08:51 PM

Bagelsan - 61

First, it’s Mighty Ponygirl’s words that make it seem that she considers something not physical not weird.  See comments 59 & 60.  I think it’s very valuable to force people to come to terms with their prejudices against mental health issues and how ‘real’ they are.  Sure, there are people who may use an addiction to cover up for the fact that they are jerks (tiger woods).  But that’s not a reason to be so dismissive.

Secondly, Mighty Ponygirl and those who agree with her chose to define addiction merely as a chemical dependency matter, and strictly by that definition, I agree, gaming addiction is not addiction.  But I think that definition, while legitimate, is problematic, because it doesn’t address socio-economic issues, any trauma background of the person in question, general mental health make up, etc.  To me, that definition narrows the discussion and damages it.  After all, methadone clinics alone don’t cure drug addiction.  But it’s definitely a fair and legitimate argument - as long as I’m sure those people really aren’t trying to claim that people with damaging compulsions they can’t control are less worthy of help and respect.

Also, I want to point out that these things have real life consequences.  I’m struggling with several compulsive behaviors, one of which is sexual anorexia.  My therapist would gladly see me every day but with my job it’s impossible.  I could really use some medical flexibility but I can’t get it - HR has a list of issues and my survivor of abuse mental health issues are not part of them. 

This, of course, is true about other diseases - I have various serious autoimmune problems and can’t get medical leave for any of them.  if I had cancer?  No problem!  Get 3 months!

I would quit my job - but I can’t afford to.

Comment #59: Lurker  on  02/25  at  08:54 PM

Now, where can I go get treatment for my addiction/compulsion/whateverthefuck to Pandagon?

Comment #60: liberalrob  on  02/25  at  08:58 PM

Jamie D, thanks I’ll look up her work. 

It’s just every time I see Evo-Psych in the news it’s someone trying to excuse some bad behavior, usually ascribed to men. 

I have access to Lexus/Nexus and PubMed, this could get time consuming.

Comment #61: GeekGirlsRule  on  02/25  at  09:05 PM

If your attitude is that women are not really people, but unconscious creatures who target in on primeval cues, then you will not have a lot of sex.  I know—it’s very sad, because your whole emphasis is on these primeval cues and primeval values, which you associate above all with sexuality.  But when you begin flashing these primeval cues as a mating call, and parade around with your sado-masochism (because you think that sadistic posturing is the more fundamental mating call there is), you will have very little sex unless you pay for it. 

Life is so unfair.

Comment #62: scratchy888  on  02/25  at  10:27 PM

No, you’re misunderstanding the idea of the “sneaky fucker” strategy.

I thought that the genetic analysis of primate groups demonstrated that it was the females who were getting some on the side with the lower status males, who showed up and made their lives easier while the alpha male went chest pounding somewhere else.

Comment #63: Ms Kate  on  02/25  at  11:14 PM

Real bipolar disorder is rare. People with bipolar disorder have extreme high and low peaks.

MPG, this comes off as seriously condescending - particularly to a person who shot heroin to go to tone things down after being awake for well over a week.

You are getting way to steeped in “precise” definitions here, rather than functional ones in this particular post.  One of the signature methods of identifying bipolar disorder: response to lithium treatment.  Now, there are people who classify as bipolar who don’t respond to lithium treatment, but it would be interesting if one could identify someone who responds to lithium who is not bipolar (rare epilepsy, perhaps?).

Comment #64: Ms Kate  on  02/25  at  11:21 PM

including polyandrous and polygynous societies as strategies

When has that ever existed?

Comment #65: keshmeshi  on  02/26  at  01:50 AM

So, basically, his little tantrum boils down to: if you bitches don’t STFU and deal when your man tries to hump anything in a skirt, you hate men. I hope there isn’t a Mrs. Karasu, poor thing.

Comment #66: mythago  on  02/26  at  01:54 AM

keshmeshi - in certain groups in Tibet.  I hesitate to use Wikipedia as a definitive source here but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyandry_in_Tibet

Comment #67: Katherine  on  02/26  at  06:46 AM

Mnemosyne: Personally, I read the quote from #59 as referring to herself (and, well, me—damn you, blogs!) not your brother, for example. YMMV, of course.

And the #60 quote I saw as contrasting “chemical dependency” with “impulse control problem” but not saying that one was necessarily more damaging than the other. I thought Chet at #56 made a good distinction regarding that idea: in the first case the thing itself is the problem (at least, in some part) but in the latter case it’s more like the person affected has fixed on something that could be totally harmless to 99.99% of people but which is not at all intrinsically addictive. So it would be like, in an “addiction” there are outside chemicals fucking with your brain while in an impulse control issue your own chemistry is screwing you over by responding oddly to non-chemical outside stimuli. I’m not a psychiatrist, but this still seems like a helpful distinction to me.

Comment #68: Bagelsan  on  02/26  at  03:05 PM

(Obviously, at the end of the road, everything is chemicals. But the source of the chemicals seems to differ, which is interesting and likely important.)

Comment #69: Bagelsan  on  02/26  at  03:07 PM

When has that ever existed?

IIRC, the Iroquois were polyandrous, but I’m too lazy to look it up right now.

Comment #70: Mnemosyne  on  02/26  at  03:43 PM

So it would be like, in an “addiction” there are outside chemicals fucking with your brain while in an impulse control issue your own chemistry is screwing you over by responding oddly to non-chemical outside stimuli. I’m not a psychiatrist, but this still seems like a helpful distinction to me.

It’s a potentially useful distinction if you’re the doctor who has to figure out if your patient’s primary problem is that they’re physically dependent on a drug or if they can’t control themselves when it comes to the drug and have become physically dependent on it.  The problem is that the two tend to overlap—you can have someone who goes through detox with heroin who immediately starts taking other drugs as soon as they’re clean because the underlying problem was not the physical dependency, it was the psychological/psychiatric issue.  You have other people who can detox and have few problems in the future, because their problem really was the physical dependency.

We may need a way to distinguish between the two groups, but talking about the one group as having “impulse control” problems basically implies that they just need to use their willpower to overcome their issues when, in many cases, their underlying psychiatric problems (like my nephew’s ADHD) are what’s causing the impulse control problem, not a personal weakness.

It seems to take us back to the bad old days when alcoholism or schizophrenia was a personal moral failing and not a disease.

Comment #71: Mnemosyne  on  02/26  at  04:25 PM

Polyandry tends to arise in difficult conditions where women frequently die in child birth, where nursing infants is desirable up to the fourth year and beyond, population limitation is critical, and more than two adults are needed to provide for a limited group of children.

A rare “edge” sort of situation, but yet another way in which humans adapt their sexual behavior to the environment rather than presume that all societies have roving groups of males plunking every woman they can.

Comment #72: Ms Kate  on  02/26  at  05:11 PM

the ‘sex addict’[I am thinking of a person who say, faces financial ruin because of paid sex, or someone who has ruined all his/her relationships, injured themselves, etc, in the search for a higher sexual thrill] and the ‘sexual impulse disorder victim’ seem to be one and the same to me. Then again, I call a person who has ruined their relationships, is facing law enforcement and financial ruin because of marijuana an ‘addict’ too.

Comment #73: shannon  on  02/26  at  05:47 PM

“When has that ever existed? “
It exists, it’s just *really* rare (especially compared to polygyny).

Comment #74: Devonian  on  02/26  at  08:00 PM

Ok, fine, from now on, any time somebody does something they enjoy too much, it’s an addiction.  We’ll do it your way.

Now, do you have a concise term that specifically means, “a dependence on a chemical that will cause severe physical symptoms if that chemical is withheld”?  Because that’s what the word addiction used to mean, before people started crying about how using accurate terms to describe their problems was so unfair and demeaning.

But no, I’m sure there’d be no problems from treating video game “addiction” the same way as we treat a heroin addiction that can flat kill a person due to the chemical processes caused by the interaction of heroin in the body.  It’s practically the same thing, amirite?

And before you whine about how mean I am to say that habituation is not a serious problem, let me say this is big bold letters: HABITUATION IS A SERIOUS FUCKING PROBLEM THAT SHOULD BE TREATED SERIOUSLY.  But it’s not addiction, and it shouldn’t be treated as addiction.  Because they are not the same problem.  What, should we start video game treatment by sedating the “addict” until the shakes, diarrhea, and hallucinations wear off?  Or maybe we should treat severe alcohol withdrawals by placing the victim with a therapist until his or her heart stops?

Or heck, maybe we could recognize that those are two separate problems and treat them differently?  Naw, that makes too much fucking sense, can’t do that.

Words.  Mean.  Things.  For.  Fuck’s.  Sake.

Comment #75: Jrod  on  02/26  at  08:16 PM

Is there really this much of a generational divide?  I know that my statement is largely anecdotal, but I have a lot of lovely, secure and very sexually empowered friends that are women.  I just do not understand this idea that women do not like to fuck.  It just seems..archaic.

Comment #76: electricgrendel  on  02/27  at  09:33 AM

I know that it stresses out the 100% environment crowd, but “chemical castration” in combination with therapy, really seems to reduce the rate of recidivism among those who molest minors.  Something about reducing the testosterone level seems to be very important.

Comment #77: Seth  on  02/28  at  02:26 PM

I just do not understand this idea that women do not like to fuck.  It just seems..archaic.

The classical Greeks thought that women liked sex more than men, why do you think wives were kept at home in Athens and not in Sparta?

Comment #78: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/28  at  06:42 PM

A very recent article on an evo psych study that will maybe make a few of us smile smile

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1254420/Men-cheat-wives-intelligent-faithful-husbands.html

Comment #79: rakhi  on  03/02  at  06:20 PM
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