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Next entry: Buck Buck Shotta Previous entry: AIEEEEEE

How to be funny: Start by not sucking

Samhita said something about this whole controversy over the now-censored abortion episode of “Family Guy” that I think bears repeating:

I guess no one is seeing the real humor in that unless you are avidly pro-life and anti-women’s right to chose, abortion is not really a fringe topic that is so edgy it must be banned from TV. Again not shocking, but maybe they should try something easier like period jokes, until they can get with the really big scary stuff.

If you want a textbook example of how systemic sexism works, the taboo about portraying abortion on TV will suffice.  It’s the most common outpatient procedure in the country, and yet we write it off as fringe.  There’s only 694,000 open heart surgeries a year on average, 600,000 hysterectomies, and 193,000 hip replacements a year—-but there’s 1.2 million abortions performed every year.  But I’ll bet you could find more people who claim they don’t know anyone personally who’s had an abortion than make the same claim about hysterectomies, heart surgery, or hip replacement.  Of course, they do know someone who’s had an abortion, most likely, but she’s mum about it, because of this taboo against speaking about it.  And that troubling taboo creates ridiculous situations where shows like “Family Guy” that get away with pretty much anything can’t do a show about abortion.

The commenters at Feministing seem completely convinced that the episode will be sexist and vicious towards women who’ve had abortions.  At Broadsheet, the concern was more that it would be tasteless, which seems like it’s undoubtedly true. The irritating and meaningless phrase “politically incorrect” gets tossed around a lot with regards to this show, which I pretty much never watch, and so I can’t say.  But if the commenters at Feministing are right and MacFarlane indulges in a bunch of rape jokes at the expense of victims, I wouldn’t hold my breath that he’d be decent towards women who’ve had abortions. Using misogyny to get a rise out of people is a cheap writing trick, but it gets financially rewarded, so I would be more surprised if it didn’t happen in this case.

That said, there’s an angle on abortion that doesn’t get discussed much, but is nonetheless important and influences a lot of people’s opinions on the subject, and that’s the issue of religious freedom and respect for science.  I do know that MacFarlane is an outspoken atheist and has helped promote better science literacy in Hollywood, and that gives me pause.  True, a lot of pro-science and even some atheist types are so sexist that they can’t see how assaults on reproductive rights are a religious freedom issue—-see above, about how women’s issues are considered automatically fringe, no matter how much they’re objectively a major issue—-but in general, I think there’s a lot of people who come around to being avidly pro-choice because they see how anti-choice arguments are based on theocratic ideals and a hostility to science that extends to anti-choicers trying to create male-centric definitions of pregnancy (defining it as when a man’s sperm accomplishes its goal of hitting an egg, instead of the more scientifically sound medical definition centered around implantation).  If you’re a big picture thinker, it’s not hard to see that abortion bans and creationism stem from the same hysterical, fundamentalist religious worldview.  I don’t know if MacFarlane is smart enough to see that this is an interesting angle for him to approach the issue from, but it’s just something to consider.


One thing that makes me nervous when I read feminist bloggers post on this subject, though, is the automatic tendency to get angsty about the possibility that something might be “tasteless”.  Samhita avoids that trap entirely, but not the commenters and not the blogger at Broadsheet.  And the concern plays right into the hands of people who want to dismiss feminists arguments by using the sexist stereotype that women are humorless fuddy-duddies.  (Even though we support a series of rights that make it easier to have earth-shattering crazy sex all you want.)  Just because something is gross or tasteless doesn’t mean it’s misogynist.  For example, there’s the abortion episode of “It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia”, which manages to be utterly tasteless without really indulging in cheap judgments of women who have abortions or creating a false equivalence about how “both sides” are crazy, a narrative that persists even when doctors are getting shot and fetus-fetishizing jewelry is being made.

Actually, what made the abortion episode so amazing is that they made a point that more in the mainstream media should consider, which is that the main characteristic of the abortion debate in this country is complete ignorance, with a side dose of belligerence.  It’s like they read Andrew Sullivan or saw Chris Matthews on the subject and realized, “By god, they sound exactly like our shallow, small-minded idiot characters would if they ever decided to get involved in this issue.” Mac joins up with the pro-lifers because he’s trying to sleep with one of the women, and he accomplishes his goal by pretending that he’s murdered abortion doctors.  Of course, she pretends to be pregnant and he immediately tells her to get an abortion.  I watched the whole thing, slack-jawed by how much the writers actually fucking understand the dynamics at play—-the way that the anti-choice movement trots out their ingenues (often underage) to both attract and cover up the creepy men and angry, mean-spirited women that are the heart and soul of the movement, how anti-choice arguments play with people that are too shallow and stupid to really think about the implications, and how violence is more than a little tolerated from anti-choice nuts.  How the anti-choice movement is marked by a competition to see who can be the meanest and most “hardcore”, and the way that hostility to contraception plays into the whole thing.  And again, how fucking stupid the whole thing is, as you get from this exchange:

Sweet Dee: Did you have sex with her?
Charlie Kelly: Yeah.
Sweet Dee: Well did you use birth control?
Dennis: Woah, Dee, we’re from a Catholic school.
Sweet Dee: So, premarital sex is alright, but you’re not allowed to use birth control?
Charlie Kelly: Ok, now you’re just twisting words around and getting cute.

Tasteless and on the nose, and a real demonstration of how actually getting the issue and writing from a place of understanding makes it ten times funnier.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:25 AM • (104) Comments

I really can’t stand that show, partly because it is crude and stupid,partly because it really is sexist seemingly without irony of any sort.  I do like the character of Brian the dog, but otherwise, there really just is not enough funny there to waste a half hour on.

Comment #1: helen w. h.  on  07/30  at  10:36 AM

Yep, “It’s Always Sunny” has always been a lot funnier to me, in terms of crude humor.

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/30  at  10:40 AM

Yeah, I won’t watch Family Guy because there are so many horrible misogynistic jokes (rape, domestic violence, general slut-shaming, nasty mocking, etc., etc.).  Which is too bad, because at other times the show is quite funny and incisive.  Clearly I’ll have to try “It’s Always Sunny” instead.

(Btw, I have a cousin who had a pregnancy scare in high school for precisely the reasons quoted above.)

Comment #3: FashionablyEvil  on  07/30  at  10:50 AM

I try to explain to people this sort of continuum of crude humor that I perceive.

South Park, for example, is written by a couple of entitled white libertarian guys, who actively savage anyone who may have a different perspective, or feel passionately about something. It’s not “we make fun of everyone equally,” it’s “we’ll make fun of all of you equally.” In some of the complete clusterfuck trollings we’ve had over at FG, one of our racism discussions actually brought a bunch of idiots who parroted their view on the current state of racism from South Park—that it doesn’t really exist and it’s just a bunch of people getting offended when no offense was meant.

Family Guy is winking at progressive politics, there’s no reason to think that MacFarlane is not a loyal Democrat voter, but it’s really that sexist douche variety of Progressive, which I refer to as the “show your tits” variety. While he’s not actively savaging people who feel that racism or sexism exist like the guys in South Park do, he certainly has no problem making nasty stereotypical jokes about anyone who challenges his white male privilege. And yes, his rape jokes are really beyond the pale… People who watch Family Guy are convinced that they’re on the side of the “sensible left” because they’re not really challenging any power structures.

Always Sunny in Philadelphia is a genius show because the characters in the show are completely reprehensible human beings and there is no attempt made whatsoever to get the audience to side with them. They spout bullshit of the same variety you might see on South Park or Family guy, they behave in horrible ways, and they suffer for it, and so when they make jokes about abortion, or women’s rights, or minority persecution, it’s not so that the audience can laugh at people who genuinely suffer, it’s so that they can point out these five douchebags who are so entitled that they’re willing to twist actual oppression to their own ends and it usually doesn’t work out too well for them.

Comment #4: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/30  at  10:55 AM

Family Guy and South Park both remain rabidly popular among liberals, which continues to mystify me, including friends of mine that are really distinctly aware of privilege and other advanced left-wing ideas in the rest of their lives.

Comment #5: Billingham  on  07/30  at  11:02 AM

New Family Guy is wretchedly sexist. I think MacFarlane realized that his show was wildly successful on DVD in strong part to sexist male viewers, and he really caters to that crowd now.

It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia, though, that show is amazing. The musical episode alone puts it among the greatest television shows currently on the air.

Comment #6: Tanooki Joe  on  07/30  at  11:07 AM

Family Guy is a guilty pleasure of mine, though yeah, it’s problematic. Quagmire, for instance, is comic relief, instead of his actions being rightly seen as beyond the pale.

Unfortunatly there isn’t a lot of anarchists out there doing comedy, and even less that are actually funny. Pretty much any cultural consumption I do has to be done with a critical eye and knowing that it’s unlikely it will fully be in line with my politics.

Didn’t they do a semi-decent gay marriage episode, though? I’m wary of what they’ll do for the abortion episode, since just because they’re ‘not being evil’ on some progressive subjects doesn’t mean they won’t indulge in misogyny, but I have a small hope that it’s actually going to take the piss out of conservatives and be ‘unevil’ about women’s rights (probably not *good* about them, mind you). I know that South Park making an episode on the subject would be cringe-worthy, though… And what’s the odds that the Simpsons will ever touch it with a ten foot pole?

Comment #7: BlackBloc  on  07/30  at  11:07 AM

“Quagmire, for instance, is comic relief, instead of his actions being rightly seen as beyond the pale.”

I only watch it when it shows up on TBS, it’s a pretty hit or miss show, (the “Star Wars” episode was a real slog, especially compared to “Robot Chicken” but I don’t think this is right.

It’s mostly a shock humor show. I tend to laugh because whatever they do is an offense against good taste. It also has some funny ironic jokes. I think Quagmire being beyond the pale is the point of Quagmire. A lot of the jokes are the sort of ‘did they really go there, I’m laughing sorta nervously’ jokes.

My wife and I are watching “Gilmore Girls” on DVD because we never watched it on TV (just finished SEason 3) and Seth MacFarlane showed up on there in a small role.

Comment #8: witless chum  on  07/30  at  11:20 AM

Sometimes Family Guy does the “unironic misogyny”, but othertimes they seem pretty self-aware.  One of my favorite lines (from an episode where Peter gets a vasectomy and Louis puts on weight) is:

Louis: What about you, you’re fat!
Peter: No Louis, men are not fat, only fat women are fat.

There’s a similar dig when Peter makes a National Association for the Advancement of Fat People, which has the slogan ‘No Fat Chicks’.

And yes, FG is definitely one of my guilty pleasures.

Comment #9: themann1086  on  07/30  at  11:25 AM

Family Guy used to show a real feminist bent in a number of its episodes - it went downhill shortly after it was re-released (the first few episodes were good) at about the same time that American Dad began its massive jump in quality.  The latest season of that is just fabulous, and didn’t set off my sexism alarm much if at all.  Since i’m a big fan of Seth McFarlane, I choose to believe that’s where he’s spending more of his time now.  At least I hope so.

Comment #10: Gavel Down  on  07/30  at  11:31 AM

I think Quagmire being beyond the pale is the point of Quagmire. A lot of the jokes are the sort of ‘did they really go there, I’m laughing sorta nervously’ jokes.

I don’t think that’s reinforced by the way the characters within the show react to him. They just go, “Oh that WACKY Quagmire again!” and never seem even slightly appalled by any of it. Not even the women (at least if the men of the show would laugh about it while the women saw it as beyond the pale, it would be an ironic commentary on patriarchal culture).

I can come up with a few more problematic jokes. In one episode Peter gets raped by Louis (I don’t remember the context, I just remember reseeing it out of context on YouTube). The “funny” part is obviously that he’s a man, she’s a woman, so it’s ludicrous he’d ever get raped. To push the point further, the entire thing takes place in complete darkness (only light comes from the window where you see only Peter’s upper body trying to get away and crying, then he’s yanked back in the shadows). This is in contrast to rape scenes with women in all media (“funny”, or not, like in violent or horror movie or comic books) which are always fully visible (because part of the reason for them to be there is to titillate the male viewer, even if it is under the guise of it being wrong and terrible).

Comment #11: BlackBloc  on  07/30  at  11:36 AM

Gavel Down, I think you’re looking back with rose-colored glasses. Family Guy did not have a feminist bent at any point. They pointedly made fun of feminists in their “I am Peter, Hear Me Roar” episode, they have frequently driven home that Lois is required to stay home with the children, that the husband should remain the head of the household (for example, the episode where Lois takes up Karate and Peter feels emasculated), and of course, that she will always forgive every transgression of his no matter how fucked up (for example: distributing a boudoir picture of hers when he was running against her in the election).

Comment #12: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/30  at  11:43 AM

People:

It’s “Lois.”  Louis is a man’s name. 

Thank you.

Comment #13: mblile  on  07/30  at  11:44 AM

I think Family Guy is usually fairly self-aware, but that isn’t to say it’s funny. They do a lot of racist jokes with a sort of nudge to the audience to tell us that they don’t really mean it, they just want to shock us. I remember one where Brian’s about to tell a joke, and he looks around carefully, and then out of nowhere a black guy pops out just before he tells the punchline of a racist joke. It’s self-aware, sure,  I just don’t think it’s very funny.

Comment #14: HonestB  on  07/30  at  11:46 AM

Ponygirl - Mmm, I don’t think so.  All those things were not supposed to be taken at face value.  Do you remember the mock 50s instructional video on how to work with women, from the same “Hear Me Roar” episode?  You really think that was making fun of the WOMEN?

Comment #15: Gavel Down  on  07/30  at  11:48 AM

I’ve stopped having a sexism meter for Family Guy because they sandwich reruns of it between episodes of Two and a Half Men.  My sexism meter is buried so far into the red by that point that I think I’m actually numb.  Something in me hopes that McFarlane is trying to make a commentary to a completely tone deaf audience that continues to take it at face value.  I can’t tell anymore, although I do sense a rising contempt for the viewer in the most recent season.  Whatever, it’s no skin off my nose if he doesn’t want me to buy the dvds or give him revenue from ad views.  I get five channels of PBS plus all the crap on Hulu I can stand, I don’t need FG.

Comment #16: Godless Heathen  on  07/30  at  11:51 AM

Something in me hopes that McFarlane is trying to make a commentary to a completely tone deaf audience that continues to take it at face value.  I can’t tell anymore, although I do sense a rising contempt for the viewer in the most recent season.

Agreed.  Seriously, watch American Dad instead.  Quality writing, funny characters.  And at its best it’s better than anything Family Guy ever had going on, even in its prime.

Comment #17: Gavel Down  on  07/30  at  11:52 AM

“I don’t think that’s reinforced by the way the characters within the show react to him. They just go, “Oh that WACKY Quagmire again!” and never seem even slightly appalled by any of it. Not even the women (at least if the men of the show would laugh about it while the women saw it as beyond the pale, it would be an ironic commentary on patriarchal culture).”

But the characters on the show are all some variety of idiot or asshole, except maybe Brian. The fact that they don’t recoil in horror from Quagmire isn’t much of an argument to me. It seems to me that the characters on “Family Guy” aren’t really characters, because they’re as stupid or amoral as they have to be for each individual joke to work and they aren’t consistently anything. But maybe I haven’t seen the show enough to talk.

Comment #18: witless chum  on  07/30  at  11:55 AM

Gavel Down, Yes, I do. Notice how the feminists in the sensitivity training worked to emasculate Peter, and how frustrated Lois was because Peter didn’t want to have sex anymore (y’know, because Feminists hate sex and are all about brainwashing men). Look at the feminist at the end sequence before Lois gets into the fight. She’s openly mocking Lois for being a SAHM (stereotypical straw feminist) and blaming Peter’s behavior on Lois’s decision, and the resolution of the episode, the one that establishes equilibrium (where Peter forgets that Lois is around, then remembers because he gets hungry and wants a sandwich), is Peter getting turned on by the softcore lesbian porn happening in front of him.

Comment #19: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/30  at  11:56 AM

Notice how the feminists in the sensitivity training worked to emasculate Peter, and how frustrated Lois was because Peter didn’t want to have sex anymore (y’know, because Feminists hate sex and are all about brainwashing men).

Yes, and it was all portrayed as absolutely ridiculous, not as a moral lesson that should be taken at face value.  I found it far less problematic than the later episodes, where sexism was the unspoken premise that made jokes work rather than the thing itself being ridiculed for laughs.

Comment #20: Gavel Down  on  07/30  at  12:01 PM

No, it was an easy snipe at a group that already suffers a bad reputation in the media. Seriously, people think this shit is real. Family Guy is reinforcing that feminists are a bunch of brainwashing, emasculating, sex-hating bitches with No Sense Of Humor.

It’s an easy joke, it doesn’t challenge shit, and it’s obvious that Seth MacFarlane is not interested in being an ally of feminism because it gets in the way of his privilege.

Comment #21: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/30  at  12:05 PM

Family Guy is a cheap, shitty ripoff of The Simpsons. I can’t even watch ten minutes of FG, it’s just so stupid and lowest-common-denominator. So I can’t comment on whether it’s sexist, because I can’t make it through the sheer idiocy—and not funny idiocy—of the show. South Park is anarchically funny enough that I can usually make it past the stupid libertarian stuff: and in my experience even hardcore SP fans will admit that the more pointedly glibertarian the show gets, the less funny it is. The best episodes have nothing to do with politics.

Comment #22: felagund  on  07/30  at  12:12 PM

I actually think the Hear Me Roar episode is the most sexist Family Guy episode.  The 50s training video was pretty much the only redeemable part of that episode (and maybe the fact that Peter keeps telling the punch line of the “joke” to the woman, that was pretty funny).  The rest of it was pretty standard feminist bashing.

The episode where Lois (sorry for the misspell!) learns Karate was pretty funny though, since it was most pointedly not her fault that Stewie was a violent little bastard.  Plus, the line Peter gives when he “defends” Lois and she tries to stop him is great: “Be quiet Lois, men are talking” because it’s another example of Peter having no self-awareness.

And yeah, the show has a large amount of contempt for its audience (and the network it’s on), which honestly is great.

Comment #23: themann1086  on  07/30  at  12:14 PM

felagund: Agreed about SP; 2 of my favorite episodes are the World of Warcraft and Guitar Hero episodes.  The fact that I play the games might have something to do with that.

Comment #24: themann1086  on  07/30  at  12:16 PM

BlackBloc, check out comedian Robert Newman.

Comment #25: Fatman  on  07/30  at  12:22 PM

Seriously, people think this shit is real.

I realize that.  That doesn’t change the intention of the creators or writers.  A lot of people think Stephen Colbert is really right wing.  I’m not surprised that people took the episode that way, but I don’t think that’s how it was meant to be appreciated. 

But I see I’m arguing with a brick wall here, so let’s just leave it that we disagree.

Comment #26: Gavel Down  on  07/30  at  12:25 PM

I like how you get to get the last shot in before you declare that we’re going to “leave it.” Classy.

Look, I’m sorry that I said bad things about your most favorite show in the world, but it really was an incredibly anti-feminist episode. Like I said in my feministing comment, MacFarlane loves to pretend that “both sides are really nutty,” and the point of that episode was to make a passing mention that overt sexism is bad, but so are the feminists. He’s appealing to lazy people who believe they’re moderates by reassuring them that the best system in the world is the one that’s in place.

Comment #27: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/30  at  12:31 PM

I recently saw a Family Guy episode where a woman getting punched did not appear as a punchline to a visual gag, so I wrote in and complained. “Losing your edgy touch!” was the gist of the letter.

Comment #28: norbizness  on  07/30  at  12:34 PM

“South Park”, I’ll watch, because the writers are savants and can often be insanely funny.  But when they get on politics, it’s often tedious as fuck.  Their attitudes towards women incline me to wonder if they’ve met any.  My favorite “South Park” episodes are generally the ones that delve into kid culture the most.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/30  at  12:35 PM

Do you remember the mock 50s instructional video on how to work with women, from the same “Hear Me Roar” episode?  You really think that was making fun of the WOMEN?

It seems to me that it’s a logical fallacy to assume that getting it right on occasion means they don’t routinely rely on misogynist jokes to get nervous laughter or avid viewership from the angry young men crowd.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/30  at  12:36 PM

Yeah, the best South Park episodes are the ones about how Cartman is an asshole and/or Kyle is crazy and pathetic. When they get out of their depth, it’s unwatchable.

Comment #31: junk science  on  07/30  at  12:39 PM

Tastelesness is next to godliness.

No, it was an easy snipe at a group that already suffers a bad reputation in the media. Seriously, people think this shit is real. Family Guy is reinforcing that feminists are a bunch of brainwashing, emasculating, sex-hating bitches with No Sense Of Humor.

So your problem with FG is not that you think it’s sexist, but that you think the majority of the people will be too stupid and uneducated to understand the satire and irony. And you’re right about that, the majority of people are retards, no doubt. But I don’t see why we should lower our standards to accomodate them. MacFarlene is a liberal, so I’m guessing he’s making humor for liberals who are able to ‘get the joke’. Those who won’t or can’t, skrew them. Besides, you think the people who think the feminist version of FG is real would like your version better? Not likely.

Comment #32: sirkowski  on  07/30  at  12:43 PM

sirkowski—MacFarlane pulled ZERO punches in his FCC episode. He didn’t try to play the game of “both sides are nutty, but the simple earthy wisdom of the Average Joe and the Sensibility of the Status Quo will see us safely through.” He left a chewed-up carcass where the FCC once stood and it was a fekking hysterical episode. He has it in his power to make a funny episode where he doesn’t point the finger at the uppity women who dare to be treated with respect for causing such hy-larious tumult. He chooses not to, and like Amanda said, he instead relies on misogynist jokes to get avid viewership from the angry young men crowd.

Comment #33: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/30  at  12:49 PM

on last thing.

MacFarlane loves to pretend that “both sides are really nutty,”

This might be true of South Park sometimes, but not Family Guy. For the best exemple, see the ‘gay marriage’ episode. (btw, yes, American Dad is a way better show)

Comment #34: sirkowski  on  07/30  at  12:49 PM

great, so Seth MacFarlane is pro-marriage equality. Probably because it doesn’t challenge his privilege much (and he recognizes that). Too bad he could have done the same thing with feminism, but instead he makes rape jokes and titles his ball-busting feminist “Gloria Ironbox.”

Comment #35: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/30  at  12:51 PM

MP: that’s a good point, actually.  FG doesn’t usually pull the “both sides are crazy!” gambit, and the fact that they do it more frequently with gender issues is pretty damning.

Also, I’m glad to see I’m not the only one who thinks American Dad is a great show smile

Comment #36: themann1086  on  07/30  at  12:52 PM

MacFarlene is a liberal, so I’m guessing he’s making humor for liberals who are able to ‘get the joke’.

He isn’t. He’s laughing with people who want to laugh at feminists. Sure, Peter is the butt of all kinds of jokes because he’s a huge sexist boor, but the show’s point is that feminists are no better. Which it has to do by making them into strawfeminists. Just as Peter is a joke and meant to be laughed at, so are the strawfeminists that people think are real feminists. The joke is not meant for people who understand what feminism is and that strawfeminists aren’t real.

Comment #37: junk science  on  07/30  at  12:52 PM

But does it always have to be progressive? Don’t we have to be able to laugh our selves? Or even everything? And I mean everything. And nobody’s perfect. Obviously, if your job is being tasteless, gross and provocative, you’re gonna go too far or in the wrong direction sometimes. It’s the price to pay. I don’t think a few bad episodes invalidate the overall progressive quality of the show.

Comment #38: sirkowski  on  07/30  at  12:56 PM

The problems with arguing from intention are all over this thread.  That said, I am extremely skeptical that over-the-top, tedious caricatures of feminists are intended to be sly parody.  Why not?  Because if you’re in the business of writing comedy, you know that those caricatures can’t really function as parody, because you’re not making fun of something real, which is an important part of comedy.  Now, if you mock the people who believe in that shit, then maybe you’ve got something interesting to work with.  I’d have to see it, but Mighty Ponygirl is smart and not one of those knee-jerk feminists who just denounce everything in sight, so I’m fairly certain she’s not missing the mark here.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/30  at  12:57 PM

If he were actually a feminist making fun of real feminists, in a laughing-at-ourselves way, that might be funny. Picking on strawfeminists is nonsensical, and he’s absolutely not doing it from an insider’s point of view. Which was Amanda’s point; you’re a lot funnier if you have an actual clue what’s going on.

Comment #40: junk science  on  07/30  at  12:58 PM

Sure, Peter is the butt of all kinds of jokes because he’s a huge sexist boor, but the show’s point is that feminists are no better.

A parody was no better, in a universe where rapists are funny and a woman could fall in love with Peter. Very realistic.

Comment #41: sirkowski  on  07/30  at  01:01 PM

Of course not, sir, but you’re pulling the common tactic of changing your argument when your last one was beaten.  Not everything has to be progressive, but the best comedy works with reality, instead of putting up a bunch of tired stereotypes with no basis in reality so you can knock them down.  And so that the your mostly-male, mostly-mean-spirited audience can unironically enjoy hating on women.

The abortion episode on “It’s Always Sunny” lands some hilarious jokes about feminism itself.  But they don’t cheat by leaning on the audience’s presumed low opinions of women who have self-respect.  Mostly they have fun at the expense of Sweet Dee’s temporary embrace of feminism, making fun of people (as her character is often employed to do) who pick up causes because of their own ego, not their own interest.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/30  at  01:02 PM

I don’t think Ponygirl is missing the mark, I just think she’s too easily offended, like the rest of society anyway, liberal or conservative alike.

You’re all asking way too much of this show. Real idealized progressive humour would be pretty unfunny. Good humour is never left or right but always anti-authoritarian and authority comes in a lot variety.

Comment #43: sirkowski  on  07/30  at  01:07 PM

A parody was no better, in a universe where rapists are funny and a woman could fall in love with Peter. Very realistic.

I don’t know if I’m parsing this sentence correctly, but I’ll just repeat that parodies don’t work when they aren’t based in something real. Strawfeminists want to break the balls of neurotic men and deprive them of sex and self-worth, when real feminists have no interest in doing any of those things. Strawfeminists aren’t real, and making fun of them isn’t funny or revealing, because what they do has nothing in common with what real feminists do.

Sexist boors, on the other hand, are real, they do have double standards for themselves and women and a grossly overinflated sense of their own merit, and they are mostly blind to their own ridiculousness. Peter thus works as an over-the-top caricature of a sexist boor.

Comment #44: junk science  on  07/30  at  01:11 PM

Of course not, sir, but you’re pulling the common tactic of changing your argument when your last one was beaten.

You’re asking way too much of me to remember what my original arguement was. grin
(I haven’t seen Always Sunny yet)

Ok, let’s see…

Ok, my original arguement was that MacFarlane was a liberal making jokes for liberals. People here don’t agree based on the fact that humour was no based on reality. But to me this is more a matter of opinion (which is probably why I changed the subject). So we don’t agree on his original intent and we won’t. you win the arguement because I’m out numbered but I’m no changing my mind. ;-p

(gods, those smiley graphics are horrible)

Comment #45: sirkowski  on  07/30  at  01:13 PM

Sirkowski—so, you’re definition of “too easily offended” is “someone else finding problem with something I don’t find a problem with.” You are obviously Seth MacFarlane’s target audience, then.

Look, it’s quite obvious from my participation that I’ve watched quite a number of Family Guy episodes in my day. I even have the first few seasons on DVD, and yet, I still have the ability to look at that and other episodes and say “you know what, not cool.”

I know this doesn’t jibe with your hysterical, over-reacting feminist vision of me, but there it is.

Comment #46: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/30  at  01:14 PM

that parodies don’t work when they aren’t based in something real.

What about parodies of strawmen? Isn’t that what Brian often is? A liberal strawmen.

Comment #47: sirkowski  on  07/30  at  01:15 PM

I disagree, strongly.  The easily offended would balk at “It’s Always Sunny”, because it runs along the same shock value comedy as “Family Guy”.  And yet she loves the show.  So maybe it actually is because there is an aesthetic point being made you’re trying to sidestep with sweeping generalizations.

Progressive values aren’t antithetical to comedy. In fact, I’d argue the opposite.  The best comedy is subversive comedy, and what’s progressivism if not the subversion of patriarchal, white supremacist, hierarchical systems.  No, I’d say punching the nose of The Man is generally funnier than punching the nose of the oppressed.  And that a lot of tired sexist comedy makes so much money for the same reason that unfunny comedy has always made a lot of money—-a lot of people have no sense of humor.

But since the people with no sense of humor in question are largely male, and they are largely sexist, they feel entitled to believe they’re the funny ones with no real world evidence, for the same reason cranky old white men feel entitled to think that they’re clever when they tell watermelon jokes about Obama. 

Outside of absurdist humor, most good comedy has an element of real subversion, not just make your mom upset subversion.  Upsetting your mom isn’t real subversion.  Mocking the sexist, capitalist value system of our country is real subversion.  Honestly, one of the funniest shows on TV is “The Office”, and you’d be hard-pressed to say that they don’t generally have progressive values, even if they don’t rub your nose in it.  Pedantry isn’t funny, which is why “South Park” fails a lot.  But they consistently send up the corporate culture that encourages people to keep their heads down and their minds clear of troublingly intelligent thoughts.

Comment #48: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/30  at  01:15 PM

Real idealized progressive humour would be pretty unfunny.

I doubt that. People have given pretty good examples of it already.

Good humour is never left or right but always anti-authoritarian and authority comes in a lot variety.

The least funny portrayals of feminists are the ones that make them seem like an “authority,” like the evil matriarchy is oppressing men by criticizing sexist, entitled jerks. “Rebelling” against someone who isn’t actually an authority, just because they say things that make you uncomfortable, is pretty pathetic, and would make you a good target for parody.

Comment #49: junk science  on  07/30  at  01:16 PM

Look, it’s quite obvious from my participation that I’ve watched quite a number of Family Guy episodes in my day. I even have the first few seasons on DVD, and yet, I still have the ability to look at that and other episodes and say “you know what, not cool.”

I know this doesn’t jibe with your hysterical, over-reacting feminist vision of me, but there it is.

Christ, relax. I never said you were an over-reacting feminist. I said you were overreacting. It would be easier to argue with feminists if everytime I didn’t agree I wasn’t accused of using the female hysteria card, which I’m not. I only do it with conservative women because the results are hilarious.

I was only saying that I think your judgement of the whole series was unfair based on a few seemingly unprogressive jokes. I’m not saying you should like it or loves the series. Fine, you don’t like it and you think it’s sexist; I don’t agree. I don’t see what more there is to say so let’s chill.

Comment #50: sirkowski  on  07/30  at  01:22 PM

Ok, I’m gonna save me a lot of quoting and precise that I said that authority comes in a wide variety. for exemple, feminist authority in the feminist movement. Even the opressed have their own hierarchy. And in my view, this is what Seth MacFarlene or try anyway (matter of opinion).

Comment #51: sirkowski  on  07/30  at  01:29 PM

bah, full or typos and no edit function.

Comment #52: sirkowski  on  07/30  at  01:30 PM

Well, I’ve rarely watched it, and so I’d imagine my ability to enjoy it would probably be a matter of whether or not actually funny jokes outnumbered “jokes” that are pandering to an unearned sense of male superiority over women.  But what little I’ve seen left me pretty cold, to be honest.  And I have an over-the-top sense of humor, so they’re not going to shock me and offend me. 

“South Park” sprays ammo far and wide, and the show can be really uneven, but when it’s good, it’s amazing.  The “Lord of the Rings” episode with the porn video is one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen on TV.  Though it still falls short of the episode of “The Office” where Dwight wins that award and has to make a speech.  It’s kind of hard to beat that episode.  And talk about writing from a subversive, progressive bent.  It’s subtle in a sense, but one reason the jokes hit so hard on that episode is because they’re drawing a direct parallel between fascist rhetoric and the go-get-‘em sales rhetoric bullshit that comedy writers have been having fun with for eons.

Comment #53: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/30  at  01:31 PM

feminist authority in the feminist movement. Even the opressed have their own hierarchy.

Where does McFarlane make fun of feminists who assert their authority over other feminists? The “joke” of the strawfeminist is the “authority” that feminists are suppose to have over men, not other feminists.

Anyway. I’m sure you’re as bored as I am with this, so I’ll stop picking at it.

Comment #54: junk science  on  07/30  at  01:34 PM

I think Family Guy is a big hit or miss, sometimes they say / show a truth that is painfully funny, sometimes they are just shock jocks. But as for them never being Feminist, I just watched an old episode where Brian gets a TV starlet girlfriend… She is brilliant, beautiful, funny and he just can’t handle it. And get this, she pretends to be dumb so her TV audience likes her. I thought it was a very good expose of how men get insecure with smart females.

Comment #55: lostmypassword  on  07/30  at  01:38 PM

As I’ve said, I think American Dad is a better show. I like FG, but I wouldn’t buy the DVDs unless they were real cheap. I still don’t see how people think the earlier seaons of Family Guy were better, that’s just crazy. The Office is awesome. And yes, it’s progressive, but still anti-autoritarian. I guess I didn’t express this clearly. But what I meant by bad progressive humour is humour just for the sake of being progressive. Like a lefty version of Denis Miller, I’m sure it exists somewhere.

Comment #56: sirkowski  on  07/30  at  01:38 PM

Anyway. I’m sure you’re as bored as I am with this, so I’ll stop picking at it.

Do not underestimate how much time i have to waste. :-p (srly, a lot)
(But I’m starting to feel bad from so much double-posting so I’ll stop X-)

Comment #57: sirkowski  on  07/30  at  01:40 PM

I got to the point where I couldn’t watch “Family Guy” anymore because the treatment of Meg was so egregiously cruel I just couldn’t take it anymore.  Really, does every single fucking joke have to revolve around no one in the entire family having any respect for Meg?  Do they really have to call her fat and ugly in every single episode?  Really?

That bugs me far more than anything having to do with the other characters.  Though the fact that they have women who see absolutely nothing wrong with having sex with a dog creeps me right the fuck out, too.

Comment #58: Mnemosyne  on  07/30  at  01:43 PM

Family Guy has gone down the toilet since about 2003. It was much funnier then.

It started when Stewie was change from a made genius/wannabe dictator to a middle aged gay guy in a baby’s body, then Peter went from merely slow to mentally disabled, then Lois became a nympho and, well, you get the idea. It just went from funny to dumb really fast.

Comment #59: Ben D.  on  07/30  at  01:50 PM

Oh yeah, and the treatment of Meg. She went form the forgotten child to just being the target of plain meanness.

Comment #60: Ben D.  on  07/30  at  01:51 PM

That bugs me far more than anything having to do with the other characters.  Though the fact that they have women who see absolutely nothing wrong with having sex with a dog creeps me right the fuck out, too.

That would be the talking dog who owns his own car and is generally the most intelligent and sensible person in the entire town?

Comment #61: KeithM  on  07/30  at  01:53 PM

That would be the talking dog who owns his own car and is generally the most intelligent and sensible person in the entire town?

The one who, despite that, is still a dog who licks his balls and chases cars?  Yes, that’s the one.  But you probably haven’t run into the creepy guy I did who insisted he would only marry a woman who would be willing to fuck a German Shepherd and let him take pictures of it because that would prove that she really loved him.

Sorry, but I draw the line at bestiality.  Call me prudish.

Comment #62: Mnemosyne  on  07/30  at  01:58 PM

I wish people would stop framing abortion as a religious issue.  It perpetuates the myth the right-wing extremists hold the monopoly on religion or even Christianity.  In a convoluted way, you could say that the anti-choice attitude stem from the anti-sex attitude, which is a big part of many religions.  But in reality, the Bible says very little on the subject of abortion, except to say that a fetus is not human and that accidentally ending a pregnancy is not the same as murder.  My mom was raise Catholic and she considered abortion when she was pregnant with my older brother, but chose to have him for non-religious reasons.  I was involved in several churches growing up, and nearly all the other people there were pro-choice.  My Sunday school teacher was actually the one who changed my mind from being mildly anti-choice to pro-choice when I was only 14 years old (I changed my mind even further when I started having sex and the possibility of needing an abortion suddenly became real).  Abortion is not about religious freedom; it’s about allowing women to make the best choices for their own bodies.

As for Family Guy, I’ve never liked it.  It’s just a cheap rip-off The Simpsons.  I like South Park, but maybe I’m just interpreting everything wrong.  I see South Park as pointing out problems by making fun of them.  Cartman is obviously a jerk, so when he acts racist or sexist, I assumed that the show was making fun of people who are racist or sexist by implying that are like Cartman, which is an insult.  Maybe I assumed wrong, and it really is just a bad show.

Comment #63: bananacat  on  07/30  at  02:19 PM

That some religious people are pro-choice doesn’t make this not a religious issue.  The entire anti-choice movement is motivated by religion.  It’s like saying that creationism has nothing to do with religion.

Comment #64: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/30  at  02:30 PM

they’re drawing a direct parallel between fascist rhetoric and the go-get-’em sales rhetoric bullshit that comedy writers have been having fun with for eons.

And here in reality land, we have “The Family”:

References to Hitler and the Mafia

As reported by Andrea Mitchell and Jim Popkin for NBC News, Fellowship leader Doug Coe repeatedly urges a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that he compares to the blind devotion that Adolf Hitler demanded from his followers.[19] Coe has stated “Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler were three men. Think of the immense power these three men had, these nobodies from nowhere,” and later in the same sermon: “Jesus said, ‘You have to put me before other people. And you have to put me before yourself.’ Hitler, that was the demand to be in the Nazi party. You have to put the Nazi party and its objectives ahead of your own life and ahead of other people.”[19]

Doug Coe also refers to the Fellowship as the “Christian Mafia” and is on record saying that he tries to make the group act like the Mafia because the more invisible you can make your organization, the more influence it will have.[91]

Comment #65: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/30  at  02:31 PM

Also, freedom of religion means not just the right to be an atheist, but to hold religious beliefs.  Which means that if your religion permits abortion, you will have that right, and there isn’t a state-enforced religious dogma stopping you.

Comment #66: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/30  at  02:31 PM

I have a hard time understanding how progressives who have an issue with Family Guy’s politics can like South Park. Where Family Guy merely falls short of our ideals, South Park pisses on them. Pretty much every issue I have with FG, or others on this thread have with FG, are a thousand times worse with South Park.

Comment #67: BlackBloc  on  07/30  at  02:45 PM

mnemosyne, completely agreed re: meg.  i haven’t seen more than a smidgen of family guy in years, mostly because the episodes i watched disturbed me so much because every single one featured everyone calling meg fat and ugly and i saw nothing remotely funny about it.

it’s always sunny on the other hand is one of my favorite shows right now.

Comment #68: chareth cutestory  on  07/30  at  03:11 PM

The Old Testament says abortion is mendatory for adulterous women.

Comment #69: sirkowski  on  07/30  at  03:26 PM

You know, King of the Hill really has some strong character writing.

Comment #70: purpleshoes  on  07/30  at  04:09 PM

You know, King of the Hill really has some strong character writing.

I’d put King of the Hill way ahead of either South Park or Family Guy. That’s a great show.

Comment #71: Ben D.  on  07/30  at  04:12 PM

If progressive humor wasn’t funny the Colbert Report and 90% of the Daily Show wouldn’t be funny.

Comment #72: Ruby  on  07/30  at  04:17 PM

The point of the Meg character is that she’s probably the most sympathetic and ‘real’ character on the show and thus is completely out of place and unwelcome in the universe of Family Guy.  Therefore, the fact that there’s nothing wrong with her is taken to be the greatest flaw of all, akin to how we would react to a person who had all of the despicable qualities the other FG characters display if we met them in real life.  It’s (somewhat) similar to that episode of the Simpsons where a ‘real’ person comes to Springfield, except taken to absurd extremes.  At least that’s the way I see it.

Comment #73: Tim P.  on  07/30  at  04:20 PM

What makes American Dad funnier that FG, for me, is the feeling that there were more decent stories written for Haley (daughter on AD) in the first two seasons than Meg will get in FG’s entire run.

When Peter says to the camera, “That’s right, it’s a Meg episode. There’s the clicker; I wouldn’t blame you (for changing the channel)”, all I can think is “Wow, after all that hard work the writers put into the character of Meg?”

Comment #74: ThresherK  on  07/30  at  04:22 PM

Also King of the Hill, despite being a cartoon, is more like real life than 99% of live-action sitcoms.

Comment #75: Ben D.  on  07/30  at  04:24 PM

Yeah, I love KotH, even though it’s also guilty of a lot of the “hahaha look at the stupid liberals” potshots that South Park has.

Comment #76: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/30  at  04:36 PM

BEGIN THE MIKE JUDGE SHOW TRIALS

Comment #77: norbizness  on  07/30  at  04:52 PM

FWIW, most people I know that do like Family Guy mostly like it for the bizarre non-sequitars. Personally, I thought it was funny at first but when they ran of mileage on the “a talking baby who’s also a jerk” thing, it pretty much stopped being funny.

Comment #78: HonestB  on  07/30  at  04:58 PM

KOTH has solid writing and great characters. Damn shame that it ain’t funny.

Comment #79: BlackBloc  on  07/30  at  05:09 PM

Yeah, I love KotH, even though it’s also guilty of a lot of the “hahaha look at the stupid liberals” potshots that South Park has.

The pot shots at liberals are much more fair than the South Park ones, though.

Comment #80: Ben D.  on  07/30  at  05:14 PM

BlackBloc—look for the first season episode where Hank goes fishing with crack. smile

Comment #81: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/30  at  05:15 PM

But does it always have to be progressive?

yeah, man, why do women think they get to be human all the fuckin time? Do they have any idea how tiresome that is? Women can be human when we’re being Serious Progressives and cumrag punchlines the rest of the time, jeez. That’s what funny is.

No, it isn’t the same for men. Don’t ask why.

Comment #82: sophonisba  on  07/30  at  05:26 PM

“I know that South Park making an episode on the subject would be cringe-worthy, though…”

Would?  There’ve been at least two, and three or four more that bring it up, that I can think of offhand.

Comment #83: preying mantis  on  07/30  at  05:31 PM

BlackBloc

It’s pretty true to life in Texas, it’s quite curious why someone in Quebec couldn’t bond with it.

Oh, and watch the one where Hank finds out his real birthplace.

Comment #84: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/30  at  05:38 PM

Sorry, but I draw the line at bestiality.  Call me prudish.

Okay…

I take it that Roger and Jessica Rabbit just completely freak you out.  And you surely must have problems with the relationship between Eliza Maza and Goliath on GargoylesBeauty and Beast (before the happy ending).  The tension/interest between Mark Wahlberg’s human astronaut and Helena Bonham Carter’s uplifted chimpanzee in the remake of Planet of the Apes.

And so on and so forth.

Comment #85: KeithM  on  07/30  at  05:56 PM

I’m not an expert on South Park, but I’ve certainly watched (and enjoyed) many episodes.  In the ones where they are criticizing progressive or liberal viewpoints, I always thought they were painting a picture of what wingnuts think of liberalism to show just how ridiculous they are.  I’ll admit that I could be completely wrong on this and maybe I’m just seeing what I want to see.  I guess I’ll have to think a little more next time I watch South Park.

Comment #86: bananacat  on  07/30  at  06:41 PM

KeithM,

FWIW, I have some problems with Beauty and the Beast, aside from the pseudo-bestiality.  The moral of that story is that look shouldn’t matter when it comes to true love, as long as you’re a guy.  Women still have to be beautiful of course; they just shouldn’t care what men look like.

Comment #87: bananacat  on  07/30  at  06:44 PM

I’ll weigh in with the folks who feel that a lot of the “sexism” in FG is really “if you think this is right, then there is something wrong with you”. (There is surely a shorter term for that.) Really, a lot of the FG universe is that way - you’re supposed to disagree with pretty much everything that ever goes on there, ever. (Which, frankly, is why it kind of stopped being funny - you can’t really build a long term comedy around that because you’re going to run out of “wrong” material and then you have to fall back on something clever and hope that your evil characters can somehow sustain interest. Seems flimsy.)

As opposed to SP (which I also enjoy sporadically) which basically feels that if you do NOT agree with their middle-of-the-road, glibertarian point by the end of the episode then you are a moron and you are also so radically conservative/liberal that you can’t take a joke and are are polarized right into the middle of Wrong Canyon. I mean, MP and TS get a few things right (as defined by “I agree with them at times”) but they’re so freaking smug and self-satisfied that it gets old after awhile.

I seriously don’t get the people that wig out over Brian and start talking about ‘bestiality’. I can’t even express how weirded out I am when people bring that up - it would be like someone complaining about Brian’s drinking habit “because alcohol is bad for dogs”. I never even think about the sexual antics between Brian and the girlfriend du jour because it’s a freaking cartoon. It’d be like wondering how Stewie and his girlfriend/wife had sex - I mean WTF? I’d like to say that the preoccupation says more about the person than about the show, but that sounds like something MP/TS would say, those smug know-it-alls. raspberry

Comment #88: Essie Elephant  on  07/30  at  07:27 PM

I agree with SP—it’s better when it’s savaging everybody and not funny when it’s trying to present its glibertarian views.

The best SPs are the one where everyone’s stumbling around wrong for different hilarious reasons.  The worst are the ones where one view is held forward as essentially right.  For example, the one on Terry Schaivo, centering around keeping Kenny alive (remember, he resuscitates regularly without assistance), in which the kids are trying to keep him alive out of respect for their friend while Cartman is trying to get him unhooked to get his PSP . . . was a wonderful examination on how in complicated situations, good motives can get you to stupid places, and some decisions just don’t have canned right answers.  It was awesome.  But that’s because everybody was wrong in that one, for different good reasons.

Comment #89: Punditus Maximus  on  07/30  at  07:41 PM

I can’t believe that in all these comments no one has brought up the “It’s OK to come out of the closet, Tom” episode of SP. That’s my favorite!

So, does that make me a misanthrope, or what?

Comment #90: IllogicalPlanner  on  07/30  at  08:17 PM

And now for the obligatory gripping about the targeted ads, Google now says at the bootom of my screen:

pregnant? scared?
you have choices and options medical and living expenses paid
www.adoptionadvocates.net

Comment #91: Essie Elephant  on  07/30  at  08:46 PM

I take it that Roger and Jessica Rabbit just completely freak you out.

 

Not really, since they’re both the same species.  Jessica’s not human, she’s a toon.  All the human guys playing patty-cake with her are creepy as hell, though.

And you surely must have problems with the relationship between Eliza Maza and Goliath on Gargoyles.

I know I’m showing my age by admitting this, but I have no idea what or who you’re talking about.  Is it a cartoon?

Beauty and Beast (before the happy ending).

A bit, yes, though at least I knew with it being a Disney movie that the prospect of sex wasn’t anywhere on the horizon.  Plus it helped that we knew from the beginning of the film that he’s a human under enchantment, not a Labrador (or whatever Brian is).  Shrek was the one that started giving me the willies.  Fortunately, it’s revealed that Fiona is an ogre, too, and my stomach was able to go back to normal.

The tension/interest between Mark Wahlberg’s human astronaut and Helena Bonham Carter’s uplifted chimpanzee in the remake of Planet of the Apes.

That wasn’t supposed to be creepy?  Next you’re going to be telling me that Island of Lost Souls isn’t supposed to be a horror movie.

Seriously.  I find the prospect of animal/human sex creepy, in all forms.  I’m not only applying it to “Family Guy.”

Comment #92: Mnemosyne  on  07/30  at  08:53 PM

I can’t even express how weirded out I am when people bring that up - it would be like someone complaining about Brian’s drinking habit “because alcohol is bad for dogs”. I never even think about the sexual antics between Brian and the girlfriend du jour because it’s a freaking cartoon. It’d be like wondering how Stewie and his girlfriend/wife had sex - I mean WTF?

And yet you’re supposed to think about Lois and Peter having sex, and Quagmire, and you’re even supposed to think about the weird molester guy molesting kids.  I mean, the whole show is drenched in creepy sex.  They had a whole episode where Stewie gets off on having Lois spank him and keeps coming up with excuses to get in trouble so she has to spank him.

If you don’t think it’s creepy that Brian is having sex with human women, I think you’re missing half the point of the show.

Comment #93: Mnemosyne  on  07/30  at  08:58 PM

because the treatment of Meg was so egregiously cruel I just couldn’t take it anymore.  Really, does every single fucking joke have to revolve around no one in the entire family having any respect for Meg?  Do they really have to call her fat and ugly in every single episode?  Really?

I wanted to jump in and agree on this one, because this is the thing that tips the show into the unfunny category for me, even more than the relentless unironic pop-culture references.  I get that originally there might have been a joke being made about teen girls being criticized for everything even when they’re perfectly normal like Meg.  The fact that they hammer her almost every episode though has killed any joke that might have existed.  Instead it has become more like a bully pile-on, where everyone picks out the weak girl and decides that she is fair game for derision.  It has long since ceased to be even the slightest bit ironic, it is no longer a commentary, and it is not the slightest bit funny.  It’s just stupid cruelty because the LCD finds that shit funny. 

I can’t hang with that.

Comment #94: Eileen  on  07/30  at  09:41 PM

“If you don’t think it’s creepy that Brian is having sex with human women, I think you’re missing half the point of the show”

The German Shepard guy you ran into, THAT is creepy
Cartoon character who is an anthromorphic animal dating cartoon character that is human? not so much

Maybe it is supposed to be, but the cartoon convention that animals are just funny shaped people is too ingrained for it work that way

The still licks has balls and chased cars is just lampshade hanging
Bugs Bunny still lives in a hole even if that hole contains a bed, dresser and mirror


ps
best lampshade hanging of this was a movie about 10 yrs ago about chickens building a plane to escape from a chicken farm.  one character kept going on and on about his days in the RAF, in his “crate” over Berlin
At the end they ask him to fly the plane, he says he dosent know how.  but wasnt he a pilot they ask
he says Of course not, Im a chicken.  the RAF dosent entrust valuable military equipmet to farm animals, I was squardon mascot.

Comment #95: jefft452  on  07/30  at  11:29 PM

Yeah. When Brian and Meg made out in that one episode, I was grossed out because they’re family and he’s essentially her brother, not because it’s bestiality. Brian is much more a human in a dog suit than anything else.

Comment #96: junk science  on  07/31  at  12:47 AM

Mnemosyne: Gargoyles is a *freakin’ old* cartoon. It’s what happens when Disney lets somebody do something with some brains to it. Of course, it was cancelled after two seasons.

(Yes, I said *two seasons*. There is NO 3rd season. None! Anybody who denies this truth must be destroyed.)

Comment #97: BlackBloc  on  07/31  at  01:54 AM

As for Goliath + Eliza: as long as it stayed out of the hands of fanfic, the relationship was non-creepy. A pretty intense friendship. It’s what the fanfic crowd did to it that’s creepy.

Comment #98: BlackBloc  on  07/31  at  01:55 AM

“South Park” sprays ammo far and wide, and the show can be really uneven, but when it’s good, it’s amazing.  The “Lord of the Rings” episode with the porn video is one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen on TV.

Agreed.  In fact, when I originally saw that episode, it moved me to name my new kitty “Butters.”  (And it has turned out to be the perfect name.)

As for FG…one of my closest friends was/is really into it and suggested I watch it.  So I did watch a goodly number of episodes and quite occasionally laughed my ass off at Brian and Stewie.  But I had to quit watching it because Peter is so fucking stupid it just ruined the show for me.  And yes, I know that’s how he’s supposed to be and he is just a cartoon, but damn.  It’s too hard to wait through his monumental stupid to get to the few good parts.

Comment #99: kac90b  on  07/31  at  03:22 AM

Amanda’s musings on an episode she’s never seen strikes me as needlessly unproductive. They’re 20 mins long, is it really such a chore to watch it and make a judgment than just make a sort of half-assed judgment on a series of assumptions drawn from things around the show?

Comment #100: Destructor  on  07/31  at  04:25 AM

Destructor, nobody has seen the episode.  This is an analysis of the show’s humor overall compared against the humor in It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia.  Didn’t you get that?

Comment #101: Eileen  on  07/31  at  10:01 AM

Yeah. When Brian and Meg made out in that one episode, I was grossed out because they’re family and he’s essentially her brother, not because it’s bestiality. Brian is much more a human in a dog suit than anything else.

Incest + Bestialty for the win.

Comment #102: sirkowski  on  07/31  at  10:43 AM

“Using misogyny to get a rise out of people is a cheap writing trick, but it gets financially rewarded, so I would be more surprised if it didn’t happen in this case.”

Since everything family guy does is cheap writing, this is a great line. It was actually the only time I agreed with South Park. Dolphins who pick balls out of water with Pop Culture references on them write that show.

Comment #103: SuperD  on  07/31  at  12:16 PM

I agree with Gavel, upthread. American Dad is the better than Family Guy. The first couple of seasons of the latter were tremendously better. It’s not just that the show is misogynistic—it’s that it’s unironically so. There are no consequences, absurd or otherwise, of the misogyny. Quagmire is a good example: the characters have no strong reaction to his vileness. If it was over-the-top appreciation it would make for a better joke (while still making all characters concerned misgynistic, it wouldn’t make the show misogynistic).

Think of it this way: Boomhauer on King of the Hill chases after women. The other guys respect him for it—mostly. But the moment his behavior has consequences—like he’s giving lessons to Bobby, a kid—everyone goes ballistic. They KNOW something is twisted about his lifestyle, but they have the luxury of ignoring the downsides. . . until they don’t. The humor is the panic when a character who found Boomhauer amusing suddenly has to face the downsides (that includes Boomhauer himself on several episodes).

Quagmire isn’t adored or respected—he’s just “one of the guys.” Thus, his behavior isn’t a joke. It is, in fact, of no moment.

And anything involving Peter and Lois and gender is unfunny and sexist and tedious and you sit around hoping the B Plot will be better during the whole episode.

“South Park” sprays ammo far and wide, and the show can be really uneven. . .

Eh, not exactly.

South Park fails harder than FG when it fails, btw, because SP is built around the idea that the creators know what they’re talking about. SP will actually get the facts wrong about whatever it is they’re lampooning, turning the episode into some dull, full-color WWII propaganda film. The writer’s strike episode, for example, made it clear that the creators didn’t even understand what the writers were striking for. They’re idiots playing at intelligence. When a SP story is factually wrong, it’s completely fucking unwatchable. Still, SP stories that aren’t about politics or the Current Bullshit Delusions of Trey and Matt tend to be better than recent FG episodes because FG episodes aren’t really stories—they’re hit-or-miss gags with no consequences for anyone concerned. Even if an SP episode isn’t hilarious, it can be an amusing story. FG’s latest has no fallback to plot.

(Yes, I said *two seasons*. There is NO 3rd season. None! Anybody who denies this truth must be destroyed.)
BlackBloc  on  07/31  at  12:54 AM

Further, there were only two Aliens movies: Ms. Weaver wisely stopped after the second film.

Comment #104: No One of Consequence  on  08/01  at  02:23 PM

Well speaking as someone who’s seen just about every episode of both SP and FG, I tend to find a lot of FG jokes a bit of a downer for all the reasons stated above, but it’s something I chiefly ignore so I can concentrate on the good parts. Having said that though, the feminist episode clearly wasn’t meant as a parody of feminism as a whole, and anyone who sees it as such is frankly insane. Peter, as the ‘family guy’ represents the archetype of the horrible (but ‘loveable’!!) American sitcom dad - Archie Bunker, Al Bundy, Homer Simpson, etc. - taken to its natural conclusion. Therefore, putting him against someone straight-laced, with radical, contrary views is inherently funny - that’s what the feminism thing represented, as opposed to any kind of analysis on the feminist movement. I think satire went out the window as soon as they announced the sexual harassment teacher was named ‘Gloria Ironbox’.

Oh and from what I remember, the misogyny in American Dad is just as frequent and much more violent than in Family Guy. In the sense that where Family Guy would make a domestic violence joke, American Dad would make a rape joke. Where a woman was punched on FG, she’d be killed in AD, etc. Hell, I watched an episode tonight which revolved around a friend of the wife being killed by the husband’s boss during foreplay. And what hilarious hi-jinks he had to go through, all so he wouldn’t have to hear his wife say: “I told you so”.

South Park is of course miles above both. I see the politics there as: ‘right-wingers have stupid political views, left-wingers express their views stupidly’. There’s the occasional bad ‘serious’ episode but on the whole they’ve done enough genius ones to get a lifetime pass as far as I’m concerned.

Comment #105: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  08/02  at  12:12 AM
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