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Next entry: Odds and ends Previous entry: On economic populism and rookie sexist mistakes

How to handle widespread delusion?

Race

Joan Walsh has an interesting article at Salon, where she grapples with the surge in white resentment that was recorded in a recent study as white people believing they experience "racism".  In fact, they seem to think white people experience more racism than black people. Joan says it's hard to guess at what's compelling this demonstrably false belief, but starts a thought experiment where maybe there's some rationale for this thinking outside of just being delusional.

Is it possible that some whites might experience more anti-white "racism" now than they did 30 years ago? Well, not if you're trapped in the boundaries of discourse mostly defined in academia, where people of all races can be bigots or prejudiced, but they can only be "racist" if they are a member of the socially, politically and economically dominant group.  But in our kaleidoscopic multiracial society, "racism" is a term that, like it or not, has come to be used by every group, to cover slights ranging from a peer in one group not liking your group, someone consistently disrespecting your group, to actual discrimination in education and employment. The idea that whites can't face racism seems silly: In the San Francisco Bay Area, where we have leaders of every race, whites disproportionately hold political and economic power, although political power is more diffused. But your chances of having a non-white teacher, boss, co-worker, firefighter, beat cop, prosecutor or judge are pretty high. Grievances can be misunderstood as racial; they may in fact be racial.

To start with, I don't think it's really true to say that distinguishing between "prejudice" and "racism" is beyond the scope of people who aren't familiar with academic theorizing on race. I'll use my own white self as an example.  People have made prejudiced---i.e., snap judgments---based on me because of my race, and their prejudices were disconcerting because they aren't true.  But the key here is that those snap judgments are largely positive.  For instance, people tend to assume, in part because I'm white, that I come from a more educated background than I do, instead of the public-high-school-in-West-Texas-born-to-parents-without-college-degrees reality.  This can be irritating, but it's usually to my favor. Everyone experiences prejudice, since snap judgments are basically a cognitive trick the brain uses to sort through the world and it's honestly never going to happen that we get to know every person's soul before we interact with them.  But it's the content of the prejudice that determines if it's racist.  I think most people can get this. In fact, most of us put a lot of effort into managing our image so that people's snap judgments of us align with what we think of ourselves.  In fact, if you read sites like Microaggressions, you'll see that one of the most common forms of everyday racism is for people to overlook all the work you've put into crafting a certain image of yourself and replace that with some gross assumptions. 

So I'm genuinely skeptical that most white people have really experienced the sort of racism that we're talking about here. 

Joan suggests that cultural emphasis on multiculturalism and diversity might be making white people feel left out, and I think some of her thoughts on this are interesting.  It tends to be more true of people who are emotionally demanding, which I think is a trait that's probably more common in this instance amongst white people, as they're accustomed to never being left out.  (For instance, consider how obsessed some white people are with the who and who doesn't get to say the N-word, as it were.)  I think she makes some valid points about some easy fixes to quell this resentment if you're, say, putting together a corporate policy on diversity.  But I'm unclear on how any of these fixes (such as making sure to include white people explicitly in the definition of "diversity" instead of just assuming that everyone gets that) could be applied to the larger body politic, where control is basically not going to happen.

I think part of the problem is that Joan is overly sympathetic to the fear of being left out that some white people are experiencing.  I would argue it's complete paranoia, and I base that in a lifetime of both being white and having grown up in areas where blatant racism is a lot more acceptable than it is in my current social circles. For instance, she writes:

That makes sense to me. As long as I've been writing about the changing demography of California, I've wondered about rhetoric that seems to leave whites out of the future. I've never been a huge fan of the "people of color" umbrella when wielded politically. It can be useful descriptively; it can also provide (false) confidence that "minority" issues can gain "majority" support without whites, as long as African-American lawyers, Cuban teachers, Laotian refugees, Caribbean entrepreneurs, Salvadoran doctors, fourth-generation Chinese real estate moguls, refugees from Mexican drug wars, and third-generation welfare recipients of any non-white race can all stick together in a grand coalition. Good luck with that.

She lives in San Francisco and I do not, so maybe she's experiencing something completely different.  But my feeling isn't that the term "people of color" has ever insinuated this kind of extreme band-together-ness she's talking about, especially when she sympathetically portrays people who've convinced themselves that "diversity" is leaving them out because they're white. The ugly truth of the matter is that white people are still more likely to band together to the exclusion of others.  For instance, look at the statistics on interracial dating, both the instances of and the approval of. Black people and Hispanic people are more likely to approve of interracial dating and to have engaged in interracial dating than white people.  Not by like huge margins, but still significant differences.  

The truth of the matter is that white people crying about "racism" are most likely to be people who believe that their privileges over people of color are deserved and they don't want to share.  It is true that they often go off in to La La Land to rationalize their selfishness by convincing themselves that it's a zero sum game.  It's the same thing as straight people claiming that marriage means less if gay people get to get married.  They're just plain bigoted.  

Roy Edroso recently posted an illuminating set of examples of white people whining about how much "racism" they experience.  It's a good reminder of how completely ridiculous they're being. One example, from a site called Urban Grounds:

That’s because in Black Run America, there are no rules of civility or decency. Only a “gonna get mine” attitude born from generation-after-generation of blacks in America being given handouts after handouts.

There's layers of assholery to unpack there, but what sticks out to me is that he's convinced himself that we're living in "Black Run America".  He's convinced himself that any amount of power held by black people, even if white people still have the majority of it, is too much and signals the end of days or something.  This is what I think this research is picking up when white people claim they're victims of "racism". They have the objectively racist belief that white people deserve all the cookies, and when someone who isn't white gets a cookie, they feel like something that belongs to them has been taken from them.  They are, in other words, deluding themselves.  And I don't know if there's a quick fix for that. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:44 AM • (68) Comments

One’s own privilege is invisible to oneself- until one notices even a little bit of it slipping away; whereupon a certain kind of person will totally lose his shit.

Comment #1: Steve LaBonne  on  05/26  at  10:45 AM

Just a heads up, but some of your blockquotes aren’t showing up.  You just have blank boxes.

Comment #2: ks  on  05/26  at  10:45 AM

Never mind, they’re there now.  Must have been something off with my browser.

Comment #3: ks  on  05/26  at  10:46 AM

That’s because in Black Run America, there are no rules of civility or decency. Only a “gonna get mine” attitude born from generation-after-generation of blacks in America being given handouts after handouts.

And back on topic, this could have been quoted almost directly from my mother.  It very much upsets her that my sister has procreated with a black man and she will go on and on and on, to my sister’s face, even (but not in front of the kids’ dad) about how she hopes that her grandbabies won’t be raised “like that” and around those “ghetto” people.  And when she’s called on it, she acts all offended and martyred, like she’s just looking out for the best interests of *her* grandchildren and how could her daughters accuse her of being a racist, and what does B expect anyway, because since she lives with “that guy” she knows how they all are anyway. 

I love my mom, and she’s generally really good about a lot of things, but race is her big blind spot and she will not acknowledge that she could be wrong about anything, and especially that.

Comment #4: ks  on  05/26  at  10:54 AM

I think their problem is that not everyone thinks whites should be on top.

Years ago I came to the realization that Asians looked down on whites, who they considered to be lazy, divorce-prone, and unfilial. At the wake of a co-worker’s brother, who had passed away after a long illness, many of our Asian co-workers expressed surprise that his white wife hadn’t taken off, but had stayed with him till the end.

Comment #5: Hector B.  on  05/26  at  10:58 AM

Ahh, that old why-can’t-I-say-the-n-word/they-called-me-whitey chestnut. There is a method I always use to shut down both:

Not me: “Rappers use the n-word. Why can’t I say it?”
Me: “Say it. It’s not illegal. Sack up and say it, if that’s how you feel. Own it.”
Not me: “But they’ll say it’s racist?”
Me: “So? You already don’t care what they think.”
(exeunt.)

Not me: “Some black guy called me whitey! That’s racist!”
Me: “Then tell the man that it’s racist. It’s not hard.”
(exeunt.)

Anyway, comment #1 nailed the rest of my thoughts on the matter. Quit whining, fellow whiteys.

Comment #6: D.N. Nation  on  05/26  at  11:12 AM

she will not acknowledge that she could be wrong about anything, and especially that.

That’s not a good parent, that’s someone who tries to set themselves up as a demigod, and, as in almost all other cases in human history, it doesn’t work very well, does it?

http://www.bartleby.com/157/6.html

Do not give your children moral and religious instruction unless you are quite sure they will not take it too seriously. Better be the mother of Henri Quatre and Nell Gwynne than of Robespierre and Queen Mary Tudor.

Comment #7: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/26  at  11:51 AM

That’s because in Republican Run America, there are no rules of civility and decency. Only a “gonna get mine” attitude born from generation-after-generation of republicans in America being given inheritances on top of inheritances

fixed that for ya

Comment #8: shade  on  05/26  at  11:55 AM

Damn it, Shade, you beat me to it. 

I was going to say, I really only see that attitude from the Right and Libertarians (who are mostly just Republicans who smoke pot, as far as I can tell).

Comment #9: GeekGirlsRule  on  05/26  at  12:08 PM

I have actually experienced racism directed to me as a white appearing person in a very specific and very limited way.  It was mostly cultural, rather than institutional as well, though police would have asked what I was doing there if anything had happened to me.
I live in a small, moderately diverse city that acts in part as a bedroom community to Boston.  A neighboring city is very heavily minority and poor, and has a problem with affluent and not white people coming in to try to sell/score drugs, cause trouble, etc.  I myself generally wanted to stay away from many of the white people you would see on the street there as they were often really were there to deal drugs, cause trouble and take drugs/drink openly on the street.  I understand that they were not safe, pleasant people. This is a heavily populated area with underfunded police and community services that can’t hope to keep any interlopers under control.
It is a bit of a jolt when you realize other people’s first impression as you walk into the specialty meat market, main street clothing store or Saturday farmers’ market is influenced by that.  I’ve had to deal with it before, being from a mixed racial family, but still a jolt.  More new white immigrants and more grandchildren of the Irish and Italian immigrants who used to live there are moving into the area, so that has changed recently.
The fact racism against white people is so uncommon is the only reason it is a jolt at all.

Comment #10: helen w. h.  on  05/26  at  12:10 PM

as long as there are 100 rich WHITE men and women in the US Senate, racism will continue to thrive.

Comment #11: madmatt  on  05/26  at  12:11 PM

fixed that for ya

If it weren’t for projection, these idiots wold never have a thought in their heads at all.

Comment #12: Steve LaBonne  on  05/26  at  12:20 PM

I am hopeful for the future on the subject of race, though. My older daughter is 22, and when she was in middle school, the kids self-segregated -white kids sat together, Latino kids sat together, black kids sat together, etc.

My younger daughter is 14 and in middle school now, and she sits at a table with black kids, Latino kids, biracial kids. She doesn’t get why people care what color someone’s skin is. We live in a community where the majority of kids in public school are Latino (once you get to middle school age, anyway - there is significant white flight to private and Catholic schools at that age, which amuses me because the Catholic schools in particular are more diverse than the public schools). 

Comment #13: maurinsky  on  05/26  at  12:27 PM

Kind of astounding that there’s this group of white people who fear that they may be hated by a significant portion of the population.  Compare that to non-whites who KNOW that they are hated by a significant portion of the population.

Comment #14: Jake  on  05/26  at  12:34 PM

Kind of astounding that there’s this group of white people who fear that they may be hated by a significant portion of the population.

I was just thinking how well this stuff dovetails with more general tendencies in conservative culture.

In my experience it seems that a big part of the inner life of the wingnut involves obsessing over the possibility that someone, somewhere thinks they’re better than you. This is clearly a variant of that.

Comment #15: Nobody  on  05/26  at  12:46 PM

I’m having a hard time getting my mother to stop seeing things as a zero-sum race game when it comes to welfare. I’ve had cancer for two years know. I’ve had no job since my diagnosis either. I’ve applied over and over for medicaid and get denied. The only thing I managed to get was ssdi which doesn’t cover my medical bills at all.

However every-time I’m denied or talk about the frustration of just trying to get some assistance she launches into a rant about how unfair it is that undocumented immigrants get medical help, especially if they’re having a child. I’ve tried hard to dissuade her in believing the idea that healthcare for poor and undocumented people are that much of a problem but so far she refuses to let the right-wing talking points go.

Comment #16: R.T.  on  05/26  at  12:58 PM

Sure, it’s Black Run America because there’s one (half-) black guy in the White House, despite all the other positions of power held by whites. It’s the same thing as males icomplaining about how everything has been feminized by the way-less than half-of-the-group presence of females. Don’t the people of privilege always see “them” as “taking over” the second “they” become more than tokens?

Comment #17: Kfierce  on  05/26  at  01:00 PM

There are some instances of anti-white racism, but it normally befalls small business owners in poor inner cities grappling with a corrupt city government while trying to get permits and licenses and self-interested representatives of “the community” trying engaging in power plays. I am guessing that this describes just about, um, 0% of the exurban living republican voting whites worried about “Black Run America” who are just upset that someone else became successful before they did—they are in fact more like their counterparts who harass small business owning “outsiders” and corrupt government officials than they are willing to let on.

Crime is way, way down and still falling. If whites are worried about being customized by black more now than in the past it’s because they need to pin their anxieties about a black president on someone.

Comment #18: Tyro  on  05/26  at  01:15 PM

Rape apologists are often discussed on this blog. Shall we start another category for race apologists? Because honestly, that is what Walsh’s article made me feel like she is doing, making excuses and rationalizations for racist behavior.

People will turn themselves inside out to justify another persons ignorance and fear instead of just naming it. It took the mainstream media three years to even begin to say that birthers are racists. Who is and who is not a racist needs to be dialed down from the current belief—that racists are terrorists in white sheets. Racists are the Archie Bunker relatives of many people who comment on this blog. They love their families and go to work every day, but they can’t accept that they don’t deserve all of the privileges that they have based solely upon the color of their skin.

Comment #19: serious bette  on  05/26  at  01:24 PM

Well, not that I’m disagreeing with you, but on that poll page for interracial dating you’ll notice this important piece of information:

“There are substantial differences by age in approval of interracial dating. Those in the 18- to 29-year-old age category are nearly unanimous in their approval, but approval declines significantly with each succeeding age category, to the point at which less than half of senior citizens approve. “

Meaning that there is indeed hope, and once the old fogeys die off—as it were—the numbers will start to be more even and positive.

Comment #20: alicefairy  on  05/26  at  01:37 PM

I live in a community where I, as white, am in the absolute minority, and yes, it is possible to be the subject of racist commentary and no, not of the positive variety.

That said, the times it has happened has fallen into one of two occasions: the first being when someone who doesn’t know me assumes that my only goal is to make money at the expense of the majority of people in the community and don’t really care about it. Mind you, there are sound historical reasons for someone having that belief about southerners in general, so it can be understood.

The second was a personal one when I (and the white nurses and doctor who failed to safe an accident victim) were accused by a family member of not doing everything we could because the deceased wasn’t white. That one gets a pass because it was a stupid outburst made by a grieving family member trying to find someone to blame for a stupid, preventable accident.

The way I’ve tended to view it is not that I’m a member of an oppressed group but that being a jerkass is a human universal.

Comment #21: KeithM  on  05/26  at  01:40 PM

@Nobody, and your idea goes along with a quote I read yesterday about Roger Ailes, scumbag, political operative, and head of Fox News:

“What Nixon did – and what Ailes does today in the age of Obama – is unravel and rewire one of the most powerful of human emotions: shame.  He takes the shame of people who feel that they are being looked down on, and he mobilizes it for political purposes. Roger Ailes is a direct link between the Nixonian politics of resentment and Sarah Palin’s politics of resentment. He’s the golden thread.”

From a good article- http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-roger-ailes-built-the-fox-news-fear-factory-20110525?print=true

Comment #22: Jake  on  05/26  at  01:48 PM

I’ve only once been a victim of a racist incident from non-whites in my 31 years on this planet, and for all I know the old Lebanese woman in question who ranted in my face about French Canadians and how they were destroying the neighborhood by moving in what used to be a nice Lebanese neighborhood was actually saying a poorly worded complaint about gentrification rather than my race. It did sound a lot like racism at the time, though.

Even if it was actually a racist incident, the point is that the right-wingers in question consider isolated incidents like this as some sort of demonstration that racism is an equal opportunity problem, when in fact people of color tend to face these incidents regularly in a week, or even multiple times a day.

Now, incidents from anglophones in Quebec are much more prevalent, mostly because the dominant group when it comes to anglos vs francos is in flux, so there are privileges that one group has in some situations and the other group has in other situations.

Comment #23: BlackBloc  on  05/26  at  01:53 PM

A billionaire, a Republican politician, a white Republican, and a person of color are sitting at a table when a waiter brings a plate of cookies.

The Republican politician gives 11 cookies to the billionaire and says to the white Republican, “That person of color wants a piece of your cookie.”

Comment #24: judybrowni  on  05/26  at  03:17 PM

@BlackBloc
Yeah, the anglophone/francophone thing is also all tied up in issues other than race, which gets really thorny very quickly. The fact that it really has been in a fair amount of flux for some time also plays into it heavily, as you note.

Comment #25: LC  on  05/26  at  03:18 PM

@20 I hope it’s true that as my(ish) generation ages we will stay as accepting, and that some kind of curmudgeon effect doesn’t happen. I have great hopes!

Comment #26: twg_  on  05/26  at  03:21 PM

In recent years, my father (Silent Generation) would start a rant about illegal alien Hispanic workers in Florida, and I’d ask, “Then, are you going to pick the tomatoes?”

That usually shut him up.

Weren’t any people of color within 30 miles of where we lived when I was growing up, so my father had to divert his prejudices into trying to convince me not to date anyone Italian. (A WWII vet who’d fought in the Pacific, he refused to buy anything Made in Japan up to 1960. But by the late 80s had made a business friend of a Japanese salesman.)

I guess once you’re in that mindset, there’s always a threat from a new group of “coloreds”
.

Comment #27: judybrowni  on  05/26  at  03:34 PM

I’ve lived in some ‘sketchy’ neighborhoods in Chicago; believe me, you don’t have to split hairs to see racism towards whites - direct threats of violence don’t require a lot of soul searching.

When I first moved to the Chicago, I had the most visceral feelings of hate for what I saw as ‘minorities’ but after many years, it dawned on me that I didn’t really hate blacks or Puerto Ricans - I hated 20something ‘tough guys.’

It’s not a racist thing, it’s an ‘asshole’ thing.

It all came to a head a few years ago when I jumped behind a car passing by my house to get the license number (I have violent antipathy to thumpin’ bass and call the police anytime I can connect it with a license plate).

Then I saw the ‘ghetto’ car - a ‘90 Lincoln Town Car - stop.  Then who gets out to confront me - to threaten me I suppose with a beating?

Two red-headed (Irish?) A-holes.

We had a spirited conversation and I told them the police were on the way. They seemed to think better of their intimidation plan, and left, but I think they got tracked down, especially in light of the fact that I later told the cops all about it.

Never saw that Lincoln again. But yeah, it came through; ass-jag tough guys come in all colors.

Comment #28: KingElvis  on  05/26  at  03:44 PM

I think even as we call these twits out we should pity them. If your opinions were formed in an overwhelmingly white, male world, it will be hard to wrap your mind around anything else without a fair amount of work. The critical number appears to be somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 (the first is the point at which a neighborhood starts being perceived as “minority”; the second at which women are considered to be dominating a discussion).

Yeah, I know, cry me a river. But I think in some ways open pity may be more effective at getting some of these folks to change their minds.

Comment #29: paul  on  05/26  at  03:59 PM

it’s funny reading Walsh’s take on this giving her recent racefails on twitter

Comment #30: cruz777  on  05/26  at  04:04 PM

My husband is blind and looking for work. I should say, he has a job offer, but the company (who is a multinational financial institution that boasts trillions in assets and rhymes with Nells Nargo) is trying to wiggle out of it by crying undue hardship to provide around $6000 worth of software and programming accomodations (that could then be used by any other blind employee in the nation/world). This has gone on and is expected to go on for months, and meanwhile he is not getting paid. (And he is qualified, he did this exact job two promotions ago at the largest bank in Canada.)

Anyway, I can’t talk to able-bodied people about this because this is what I get:
“Well, it is tough for everybody right now.” Yes, yes it is. But most people are not dealing with a 75% unemployment rate, so I think maybe it is just a little tougher for the disabled.

“Why should the company pay all that money for him when they could hire a sighted person for free?” Well, because it is the law, and this company brags about its commitment to diversity. And they are getting a really good employee with more experience and skill than the other people who were hired (we know who some of them are.) And don’t act like they don’t spend $6000 in accommodations for other employees in terms of perks, etc.

And my favorite, which most relates to this post:
“But if they give the job to a blind guy, they are taking a job away from someone else. And unemployment is awful right now.” Uh huh. Because the blind guy isn’t included in those awful unemployment rates? Because he should just step aside for some white able-bodied man who, you know, DESERVES the job more? Because he is a second class citizen and they don’t have the right to fully compete with first class citizens? Riiiiight. It is tough for everyone out there, isn’t it?

And that is what racism/ableism/sexism/etc. comes down to. The fact that THEY don’t deserve to compete with US. (Full disclosure: I’m also one of THEM, a person with a disability.)

Comment #31: Lexie  on  05/26  at  04:19 PM

“30 years ago” seems to be important to Joan’s argument.  30 years ago my thirty-something Mom was teaching her children that color didn’t matter.  Mom doesn’t think that way any more.  Oh, she’s glad bin Laden is dead but why couldn’t they show us his body? Thanks Obama, nice transparent government you got going on.  When she was a girl, everyone got to see Hitler’s corpse.

Does she think she’s a racist? No.  She thinks having a Black President is an offense to white culture, but she doesn’t think she’s racist. 

 

Comment #32: SarahPlain&Tall;  on  05/26  at  04:37 PM

This photo identifies a major part of the problem.

Comment #33: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/26  at  04:38 PM

During the ‘08 campaign, a reporter from Al Jazeera**  was interview TeaBaggers at a rally. One of the men started crying, crying! over what would happen if Obama won.

**( I wonder if they realized who the reporter worked for)

Comment #34: pitbullgirl65  on  05/26  at  04:51 PM

Yeah, I know, cry me a river. But I think in some ways open pity may be more effective at getting some of these folks to change their minds.

I really wish I could agree with this.  On one hand, compassion for these people is something I make an effort to keep part of my worldview, even though I don’t think they particularly deserve it.  It’s been on my mind that sometimes compassion is the only way to keep working with someone and moving forward on a problem, even when nothing about their character warrants it.  Plus, a bigot’s world is a genuinely scary, twisted one—I’m very glad that I don’t live there, and sad that they do.

But I agree with Amanda that white people get to be emotionally demanding and claim to feel left out because we are so used to everything being about us.  We cannot be the center of every other conversation and then have a real discussion of who is hurt by racism be all about us, too.  Not only can I not see some teabagger responding well to open pity, anyone who claims to feel “left out” by any nod to diversity has already demonstrated that compassion is not enough and only being the sole priority will do.  I can’t picture a conversation that fulfills that requirement and is still worth having.

Comment #35: themmases  on  05/26  at  04:56 PM

themmases:

You’re probably right. My hope is that open pity will be perceived as the “get over yourself, you gutless drama queen” messages that it is. But only in my revenge fantasies.

Comment #36: paul  on  05/26  at  05:30 PM

No, she’s doing the Salon-patented “hey, this is obvious bullshit, but it’s contrarian, so we’re all supposed to pretend that old horseshit is well reasoned outside the box thinking”.

I can assert that there is no validity to her statement in San Francisco nor is it true in Denmark where people are even more liberal, nor is it even true in places like San Diego where there are “front lines” on conflicts about race.

But what she is inadvertently doing is revealing why whites are big on the whole “reverse racism against me” trip.

And it’s that every dominant group reacts to the loss of privilege as an action against them. Look at men who react as if women violently raped them because they are not allowed to sexually harass their secretaries and their wives actually talk about divorce when they hit them.

In the same way, blacks having opportunities, actually being able to be represented in middle class jobs and neighborhoods that have always been carefully segregated feels like an intrusion.

It’s not what white people are used to. They are used to getting the middle class job, getting the college place, getting the home in the suburbs surrounded by white faces and that black people didn’t.

Thus, black applicants are undeserving when they pass white applicants. If you didn’t get that state job but a black person did, then it must be reverse racism, because X years ago, if you had applied, a network of racism would have kept out qualified black applicants and you might not have gotten the job, but at least you would assume that they hired the more qualified applicant.

Because we’re used to seeing black as “unqualified”, “incapable”, and “slow”, any position that goes to them must be stolen from a white person. This is because white people have always thought of normal as they get all the jobs and so on. That was how things were, naturally.

And thus any deviation can’t be because attempts to lessen discrimination is allowing qualified applicants to fill positions they were previously barred, but because of active discrimination.

You can see this reaction of “loss of privilege=reverse discrimination” the most blatantly in gay rights where having to deal with same sex couples having legal protection is seen as akin to an attack on marriage itself and a direct blow against Christianity.

I also have no sympathy for this.

As you note, they are delusional and they can come up with bullshit reasons for why it just feels different and they can blame the minority groups for daring to form political unions for their own protection (seriously Walsh? You feel threatened and want to sympathize with the privilege fail parade because minority groups have realized that white people are using their majority power to make their lives miserable and want some fucking political representation?)

It’s especially infuriating, because honestly… honky has it coming.

I mean, we white people have committed genocide after genocide, enslaved whole races of people, exploited entire continents, treated every fresh immigrant group with the most obvious disdain and have done everything in our power to make every minority’s life as miserable and short as possible in the name of making ourselves feel powerful and better about our lives of quiet desperation.

And every time we fight to the death to keep the majority of discrimination from the last big fight and against any positive change and always we blame it on the idea that if the minority groups ever got their rights they would turn around and do the same to us.

And yet, after every fight, minority groups have shown nothing but peace and reconciliation. Let’s let the past be the past and we’ll still reference it to explain the discriminations and debris of today, but hey, we’re not going to hold the sins of your ancestors against you, they say.

And how do we repay this infinite grace?

We invent the idea of reverse racism, whine about it constantly, use it as an excuse to remove what little protections they have and treat every success they have as a fluke given to them by wishy washy hippie white people who were discriminating against “more qualified” people and acting like we’re the ones actually undergoing discrimination.

Fuck.

If “reverse discrimination” ever actually existed, well, not only would white people understand how stupid this accusation was in the 2010s, but they would have done everything in their power to have deserved it.

God, it pisses me off.

Comment #37: Cerberus  on  05/26  at  05:31 PM

As to what Joan Walsh said about the silliness of seeing “people of color” as all having the same group interests, I believe Caren on this very blog once pointed out that when a white person from the south suggested that all white people have common interests, he was laughed at because he was in Chicago. There, the idea of Poles, Jews, Irish Catholics, WASPs had some kind of solidarity based on skin color was laughable. I think there’s a similar issue with “latino” as a grouping.

Comment #38: Ben D.  on  05/26  at  05:32 PM

Come to think of it, whites *are already* included in multicultural stuff, just not *as white people*. Ex. in my city we have a St. Patrick’s Day Parade, Greek Festival, Italian Festival, Oktoberfest, and a Bulegrass Folk Festival. Just like we have an African-American Festival, Asian-American Festival etc.

Comment #39: Ben D.  on  05/26  at  05:55 PM

@ Comment #31: Lexie on 05/26 at 04:19 PM

That is entirely fucked up.  I don’t know what I hope for more, your husband to get the job, or to have it denied and get an enormous legal settlement.  That 3rd comment is really really vile.

Comment #40: D  on  05/26  at  07:15 PM

In February, your kids learned about the rousing success of the civil rights movement. We all know LBJ gave black people equality in the’60s. So I imagine a lot of white people are literally unable to perceive white privilege (I myself had trouble with it as a teenager, before I became perfect). I don’t think it’s lingering racism per se; to people who think we’re all equal any change looks like a move away from equality.

I was just reading a discussion at Pharyngula about increasing POC participation in skeptical events, and sure enough, someone in the comments said (paraphrased) “I can see why we need diversity in panels about race etc., but what can a non-white person bring to the table in a discussion of more general topics that a white person cannot?” And she didn’t seem to realize which side that’s an argument for.

Comment #41: Hershele Ostropoler  on  05/26  at  07:26 PM

#30 - just what I was thinking.

Comment #42: Oriscus  on  05/26  at  07:30 PM

The only place I ever encounter a portion of ‘black power’ would be that it’s easier to get together a bunch of urban artists and fans for music together than rural or suburban.  And so the result is that if you look at dance clubs or whatnot, you end up with a larger representation of ‘black’ singers than not, and more black influences.

But that hardly means that there are black people profiting even if there are black faces in front and black people listening and calling it.

Comment #43: Crissa  on  05/26  at  07:49 PM

I made the mistake of wading into the Yahoo! comments on their article about this study.  First of all, the white commenters confirmed the results of the survey, in spades.  It seems like an inevitable result, given the way privilege works.  They’re asked to make a comparative statement about who suffers more from racial prejudice, but not only do they not know how racial minorities experience racism, they don’t know they don’t know.

The second thing I noticed was that although many of the white commenters brought up what they perceived to be examples of racial discrimination against whites, about the worst actual harm anybody could point to having directly experienced was on the order of getting bad service.  There was much hand-wringing over “diversity policies” and affirmative action, but the claims of harm were either hypothetical or speculative, as in “If I were unemployed (he wasn’t) I wouldn’t be able to get hired because I"m white”.

Comment #44: DaveL  on  05/26  at  07:50 PM

Comment #5: Hector B.  on 05/26 at 10:58 AM

Years ago I came to the realization that Asians looked down on whites, who they considered to be lazy, divorce-prone, and unfilial. At the wake of a co-worker’s brother, who had passed away after a long illness, many of our Asian co-workers expressed surprise that his white wife hadn’t taken off, but had stayed with him till the end.

Not implying that you’re going to disagree with this, but on the other hand, we have all white people who have the privilege of getting along with their lives without having to care how they’re stereotyped by Asians…

Comment #45: sacundim  on  05/26  at  07:54 PM

I wonder if this also has something to do with the segment of white people who think they are being persecuted when forced to acknowledge the existence of other groups—for instance, the “war on Christmas” silliness or “why should I have to press 1 for english?”

Comment #46: bethany  on  05/26  at  08:19 PM

Yes., bethany. These are the sort of people who are ‘discriminated’ against because there’s a black student association on campus or there’s a scholarship for black folks, even though there’s also a student association for left handed Polish immigrants, and a scholarship for Czechoslovakian youth.

Comment #47: shannon  on  05/26  at  08:31 PM

@Dave L

All the examples I can personally think of when it comes to anti-white bigotry (I wouldn’t call it racism) happened entirely between the ages of 10 and 18, and even then from my peers never from adults. And that’s because kids at that age are raging assholes, and will find any excuse to tease or bully, not because of rising anti-white sentiment. The white kids just teased me about my shoes or hair or whatever instead. But you know what? The black students had to deal with racism from teachers and the school administrations. BIG fucking difference.

Comment #48: Ben D.  on  05/26  at  08:37 PM

even though there’s also a student association for left handed Polish immigrants, and a scholarship for Czechoslovakian youth.

A lot of people don’t get that African-American is as much a nationality as Czech or Polish is. The only people who think white is a nationality are, well, white nationalists. That’s why there isn’t a “White Student Association”.

Comment #49: Ben D.  on  05/26  at  08:42 PM

I’ve been called a “white bitch” so many times I’ve lost count.  And every time, I did approximately jack shit to provoke any nasty comment, let alone a racist and sexist one.

I’m not trying to play the victim, but I am pointing out that racial resentment and hate flow both ways.  It’s less forgivable when it’s people with power and privilege who engage in it, but it’s still not acceptable no matter who’s the instigator or the victim.

Comment #50: keshmeshi  on  05/26  at  10:33 PM

<i>During the ‘08 campaign, a reporter from Al Jazeera**  was interview TeaBaggers at a rally. One of the men started crying, crying! over what would happen if Obama won.

**( I wonder if they realized who the reporter worked for)<i>

reminds me of when, during the Devonian era, Ms. Magazine surveyed its membership.

They provoked a shitstorm by arbitrarily classifying Jews as “white,” while classifying Arabs as POC.

Considering how closely Palestinians and Jews are related, this othering of Arabs didn’t fly.

kesh: are you a bitch who happens to be white, or a white woman who happens to be a bitch?

Comment #51: Hector B.  on  05/26  at  11:22 PM

Hector, it’s incredibly dumb when I hear people (even liberals) call Arabs (or worse, Iranians) “brown people”. Uh, no. No they’re not, unless you think Greeks and Sicilians also qualify as “brown”.

Comment #52: Ben D.  on  05/26  at  11:49 PM

Now, incidents from anglophones in Quebec are much more prevalent, mostly because the dominant group when it comes to anglos vs francos is in flux

That really gets complicated when language was involved. I was in a community recently with no history of French to speak of, and a large employer based in Quebec had started working near the community, and some people started to go on the “oppressed worker’ routine (other workers in the community get pissed off at the whiners who see everything as a personal affront) by blaming it on the franco staff. The complaints were no different than the standard crap you ‘d get in that situation, but the fact that the people being complained about were largely Québecois just added to the whining.

Of course, the person who complained to me started off with “I’m not racist, but…” so I knew what was coming next.

Comment #53: KeithM  on  05/27  at  01:29 AM

Part of it is the obliviousness of the majority.  Whites have been the dominant majority in the US for a long time, so most white people are used to looking around anywhere they find themselves and seeing that most people look like them.  POCs have been minorities so they are used to seeing that most people around them don’t look like them.  That can be stressful but POCs are much more used to that kind of stress and whites are not. 

Most of us whites just can’t handle it.  If a neighborhood or city changes so that whites are no longer hugely in the majority, that is as someone said upthread, when POCs reach about 25% of the population, then whites will find themselves at times in a group of people that is mostly not white.  Most whites will move away just to avoid the nervous feeling they get when this happens.

To sum up:  Whites have been in the majority long enough that most of us have become weak and wimpy when faced with diversity.

Comment #54: Nutella  on  05/27  at  02:30 AM

I don’t understand the press-one-for-english on ATMs.  First off, most of it is in numbers.  They say very little.  Secondly, you could put the language preference on the card.  (Which Bofa did, the first time you use a card is the last time you have to push the button, unless it’s an older machine)

The phone-tree thing is tougher.  No one is going to know what button to push until they hear their language.  If you language is #1, then you’re getting out of that tree sooner, so you should be happy you’re #1.

Comment #55: Crissa  on  05/27  at  05:08 AM

Of course, the person who complained to me started off with “I’m not racist, but…” so I knew what was coming next.

My other favorite along those lines is “Let me tell you about…”, as if I haven’t ever spoken with or knew anyone in the minority group mentioned.  The best one was a white guy who lived in the ghetto, and basically his story amounted to the fact that his black neighbors never said “hi” to him, as proof that black people are just as racist as white people.  After my laughing jag at that, I just responded, “Well, I live in a pretty white area, and nobody says ‘hi’ there either.  Did you have a point?”

My hope is that open pity will be perceived as the “get over yourself, you gutless drama queen” messages that it is.

I really don’t express pity or compassion for poor, put-upon white people who say racist things.  I prefer mockery - I’ve found that mocking someone’s racist beliefs works far better at either getting them to rethink their position or just to never say that stuff around me.  Nothing says “get over yourself, you gutless drama queen” like “Seriously?  Did you just say that out loud?  BWAHAHAHAHAH!” or “I’m sorry, I’m fresh out of fainting couches for you.  Do you need some smelling salts?”

Comment #56: SporkeyO  on  05/27  at  07:42 AM

@57 “if all welfare that goes to white people were cut off, what would happen?  Probably nothing of note.  Now imagine what would happen to blacks as a group if welfare, affirmative action, food stamps and section 8 were cut off?  There would be a mass die off.”

So you’re saying that the white people on welfare are cheating the system by getting welfare when they don’t need it.  Sounds like some kind of affirmative action program for whites, doesn’t it?

Comment #57: Nutella  on  05/27  at  10:08 AM

Thanks for demonstrating what bigotry looks like, Wilted the Conquered.

Comment #58: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/27  at  10:11 AM

Will’s asserting what most white people like or don’t like.

That’s racist against whites, man.  Saying they’re almost all bigots.

Comment #59: Punditus Maximus  on  05/27  at  10:21 AM

And so the result is that if you look at dance clubs or whatnot, you end up with a larger representation of ‘black’ singers than not, and more black influences.

Crissa@ 43:
Not really.  This is very dependant on the urban population mix.  One city west from me, its Puerto Rican or Domincan; the next city over from it is mostly mixed Central American and SE Asian; south is Irish and Italian, east it’s French and polish with some general redneck country/folk.

What Ben said @38.  Seriously, white isn’t a real group any more than hispanic is.  The only thing whites have in common is a nominal skin color (peach to beige) and that hispanics do is a nominal language (Not all Spanish is the same. I have heard native speakers from different countries switch to English because that was easier to understand).

Comment #60: helen w. h.  on  05/27  at  11:33 AM

Re 57:
We’ve had two trolls this stupid in as many days?  And was he referring to Jesse or one of us in the comments?

Comment #61: helen w. h.  on  05/27  at  11:42 AM

@KeithM

Yeah, the only real life examples I know of that could even remotely be considered “racism against whites” tend to sound to me more like the kind of thing certain men label as “women being sexist against men” because we do not assume that every single man we meet has our best interests at heart, and so we treat men in general both according to that and with respect to our likely ability to get the hell out if everything starts to go south.

And that’s not actually racism, sexism, or any kind of prejudice - it’s just the shit you have to do when you live in a sexist and racist society that all too often doesn’t back up * your * right to be human.

@Paul

I have to disagree with you for the simple reason that, as an argument, “here let me, without making you feel at all uncomfortable, justify to you my right to have and state opinions that make you feel uncomfortable” undermines itself in very fundamental ways.

Acknowledgement of where they are coming from is not the same as pity.  Pity especially suggests that they deserve for other people to do what they can to accommodate them, and I already adjust my life to accommodate theirs every. single. day simply because I have no choice in the matter.  I can’t make or convince them to give me the same kind of acknowledgment by continuing to disappear the fact that I do this for them in the first place.  That’s like expecting something to become less wet because I dunked it in water.

In my experience, a huge amount of hurting their feelings and pissing them off is necessary by definition.  Anyone who is decent enough to care to change is going to feel bad for being an ass.  Anyone who is mature enough to have their assholerly pointed out without getting defensive would be working harder at making sure they aren’t an asshole in the first place, and likely wouldn’t have to be told they are one quite so often.

@bethany

If certain relatives of mine are anything to go by, yes.

Comment #62: jennygadget  on  05/27  at  02:48 PM

The phone-tree thing is tougher.  No one is going to know what button to push until they hear their language.  If you language is #1, then you’re getting out of that tree sooner, so you should be happy you’re #1.

I find the press 1 for English, press 2 for Spanish not that big of a deal.  Companies could add more languages, if applicable, and rank them according to the prevalence of those languages among their customers.  What does annoy me, though, is when companies don’t give the option of pressing a specific number for a specific language and instead have a long-winded request to press 9 for Spanish.  UPS does that, and it adds a nice little cherry to the top of the shit sundae that is their automated phone system.

Comment #63: keshmeshi  on  05/27  at  03:00 PM

I disagree that only Whites can be racists, though, as I hear on a lot of anti-racist blogs.  It ignores the fact that this is not a case of simply two groups, but of multiple racial groups - and various non-White racial groups can be prejudiced against each other.  Isn’t, for example, an Asian-American person who assumes Black people are poor and uneducated, and discriminates against Black people for that reason, having the same effect as a White person who does the same?  So it’s ridiculous to say minorities cannot be racists.  A better statement would be that one cannot be racist AGAINST privileged groups, only against marginalized groups.

In addition, I do think that these definitions need to reflect how they are used by the average person, and in our culture, the term “racist” has become a definition for ANY prejudice or bigotry based on race, not necessarily just that which supports the dominant paradigm.  The fact is, we don’t have another term for that - prejudice and bigotry are general terms, not specific to race issues - so people are going to use “racist” in that sense.  There are other ways to describe specifically when it supports historical oppression.  Supremacy? Kyriarchy?

Comment #64: Erda  on  05/28  at  04:25 AM

I agree with Erica’s latter paragraph. You just don’t get anywhere arguing with non-wonks over that whole bigotry-isn’t-racism thing. If you’re talking with ordinary people, just accept that racism is pretty much a synonym for bigotry and use something like Systematic Racism or Institutionalized Racism for the other thing. Otherwise you’re quibbling over definitions and not talking about the real issues.

Comment #65: catfood  on  05/28  at  08:38 AM

I worked for a company that closed down the division I worked for, and reassigned me to a different division.  There I hit a culture shock.  There were 30+ Chinese from either mainland China or Taiwan, one South Korean, and two white people (including me) working under a hands-off Indian manager.

It was the first time I’d ever been a minority, and make no mistake: not being able to speak Chinese made one a second-class employee.  The guy from South Korea was holding on until his permanent residency came through.  Chinese was the everyday, ordinary conversational language of the department.  The department manager was out of her depth.  And the three of us who didn’t speak Chinese were the Outsiders.

It was my real experience in understanding white privilege.  I’d learned all too well about male privilege as a female engineer, but I finally felt what black, Asian, and Latino people at all my previous places of employment had felt.  It sucked.

So I’ve learned to be less sanguine about white privilege.  And while I’m certain I haven’t truly become color/culture-blind, I’m better.  All I can say is that I’m still working on it.

Comment #66: GeoKaren  on  05/28  at  10:21 PM

Yes.  Absolutely.  I love my family, but they are racists.  They’re not overt about it, generally.  But they love to cry about affirmative action.  And I guess I can see why.  We’ve never really had much.  But we’re lower middle class from Alabama.  No one who is lower middle class in Alabama has ever really had much.  So it’s hard for them to see that what little we have is because of white privilege.  I have tried to explain to them that when my grandpas got their jobs in power plants back in the 50’s and worked to provide them with a better standard of living, something like 70% of the population was eliminated from from competing for those jobs.  Blacks, Hispanics (not that many in 1950’s north Alabama, granted) and women simply were not able to apply.  They may have been the best qualified out of the applicants, but they did not have any special training other than their whiteness.  They were not necessarily the best qualified, because a large portion of the population was excluded and that is very much the soul of privilege.  So it goes right back to what you were saying.  They expect that privilege, and when people of a color different than their own are put on fair standing it diminishes that privilege.  They don’t see that as a leveling of a historically uneven playing field.  They see it as racism targeting their whiteness.  And yes- it is absolutely infuriating to try and argue against.

Comment #67: electricgrendel  on  05/30  at  05:24 AM

Quoting discrimination from the 50’s is a long time in the past.I know most Dems aren’t really good at math,but the last day of the decade was over a half century ago.don’tt you get even a slight feeling of unreality making such arguments?

Corwin, the discrimination dates to the early 60’s, 50 years ago was the summer of the Freedom Riders.

Perhaps you’re the one who isn’t really good at math.|

Comment #68: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/30  at  11:34 PM
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