Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: The MSM ‘discovers’ fringe paranoia news outlet WorldNetDaily Previous entry: The Unseen Billions

How worried should we be?

Teabagger pic from Matt.

Nate Silver has a good post up talking about the extreme exaggeration about the teabigot crowd size from the right, an exaggeration that puts all disputes over the size of protests in the past to bed.  In the past, conservatives have, at best, been able to accuse liberals of exaggerating crowd sizes to be two, maybe three times the size they are.  But the number being pushed by conservatives—-and that was continuing to be emailed around and touted in comments sections after Michelle Malkin sheepishly corrected herself—-was 2.2 million protesters, when the reality is closer to 60,000.  Like Nate said:

That’s not a twofold or threefold exaggeration—it’s roughly a thirtyfold exaggeration.

The way this false estimate came into being is relatively simple: Matt Kibbe, the president of FreedomWorks, lied, claiming that ABC News had reported numbers of between 1.0 and 1.5 million when they never did anything of the sort. A few tweets later, the numbers had been exaggerated still further to 2 million. Kibbe wasn’t “in error”, as Malkin gently puts it. He lied. He did the equivalent of telling people that his penis is 53 inches long.

The exaggeration of the crowd size tailors neatly the delusions and hysteria being pushed by the teabaggers.  While it wasn’t 2.2 million people, it’s nonetheless tempting to suggest that never have so many yelled so loudly while knowing so little and believing so many lies.  The teabaggers believe in death panels established to prioritize illegal immigrants over their white grandmothers, that schools will be installing abortion clinics in schools so they can perform abortions between classes, that the health care plan is actually a secret plan to get every Republican voter on record so they can put them in concentration camps.  (You’d think voting booths would be more effective.)  They’ve felt exactly zero need to attach themselves to reality in the past, so why would they be stopped by just making up physically impossible numbers for their protest? Hell, they should have said 5 million. There was a failure of imagination going on here. 

One of the favorite myths being trotted out before the protesters had even cleared out was the myth that no trash was left behind.  Stephen Suh was the only blogger that I saw that noted that this is actually something that wingnuts claim after every single wingnut gathering. They aren’t particularly original people, and certain myths get trotted out pretty much every time they get stimulated, as this thread—-which devolved into a lot of wingnuts praising the Confederacy and all but claiming that their brave Southern heroes didn’t own slaves—-demonstrates.  I first heard the “conservative crowds didn’t leave a speck of litter” argument around 1994, when I heard Rush Limbaugh claim it about a gathering he had.  I’m sure it’s much older than that.  The funniest thing is that these ancient, creaky myths are trotted out every time as if they had just discovered their own purity and awesomeness.  The myth, of course, is based on self-delusion and I’m sure a certain tautology.  Wingnuts who saw trash on the ground a) ignored it or b) blamed it on someone else.  Thers got a picture of the non-trash left by the pure and the righteous.


I’m sure the wingnuts will blame the mess on someone else. 

The “we don’t leave trash” thing is a way of saying that their shit don’t stink. Prior to the whole event, the blogger Jamelle wrote an interesting post about the racist anxiety underlying the teabagger movement, and this passage really jumps out at you in conjunction with the wingnuts praising themselves for their trash-free existence.

Their sincere ideological opposition is mixed up with a unconscious – or conscious, for that matter – fear of blackness and what they perceive as its “contaminating” effects.

That is, the narrative of white supremacy in this country is a narrative of “purity.”  In this story, America was built white hands, and it’s the job of those hands to keep the country – and her virtues – free of contamination from “mongrel” races.  Hence Jim Crow, and anti-miscegenation laws, and the “one-drop” rule*, as well as the fierce obsession with racial purity in Southern religious traditions.  Of course, this is something of an oversimplification (I’m setting aside a whole lot about economics and power relations), but it gets the basic outline right: an initial prejudice transformed, over the course of American history, into a distinctive narrative of white supremacy and racial purity.  And one that still holds quite a bit of currency; a recent study (and unfortunately, I can’t find the link) suggests that most Americans continue to associate “black” with dirtiness and “white” with cleanliness.

Boy, there is a serious reason all this research needs to be published and searchable online, because I can already see the trolls whining.  But non-ideologically-crazed folks can see the ugly reality that Jamelle is describing.  I’d extend it to say that the legions of the unclean in the wingnut pantheon extend way past just black people.  I’ve heard both hippies and Mexican immigrants literally called “dirty”.  The purity balls are about establishing how all other women who don’t see themselves as chattel to be passed from father to husband are dirty.  And as Pam’s oft-hilarious links to wingnuts screaming about homosexuality demonstrate, they’re obsessed with the idea that gay people are filthy, and anal sex—-which is perceived as especially contaminating—-is the main point of obsession for the wingnuts.  (Often making you wonder if they realize entire homosexual acts occur without a penis in the room.)  The longest part of the Conservapedia entry on “homosexuality” is dwelling on all the diseases that they seem to think only gay people get.  Feminists are described as hairy.  There’s more than a little obsession with the idea that everyone that is not in their tribe lives in filth and disease.  As abortion providers have noted, when “pro-life” women come in for abortions, they often demand the right to bypass waiting with everyone else, or at least demand that they get their own room to wait, because they don’t want to be with the dirty sluts who get abortions.  I guess their abortions are pure.

As Jamelle points out, that explains why health care is an especially motivating issue.  A lot of bloggers made fun of the teabaggers for not having coherent policy ideas, but they’re way beyond that even being a possibility.  They just want to shut it down, at any cost.  They don’t want to share health care with the Unclean People.  The abortion example is a really good one, and I’ve noted before that they’re bone scared of having to share medical facilities with the Unclean.  That’s why Joe Wilson nearly had a heart attack at hearing about illegal immigrants getting care.  Yes, he heard it in the context of this being denied, but he was forced to picture it: Mexican immigrants, the sort he would let work on his yard but not use his bathroom, sitting right there in the hospital next to you!  Taking this attitude into account, you can really see why a lot of them are just as motivated by the fear of abortion, which they associate with dirty girls—-there’s a genuine fear of having to share medical facilities with sluts, I guess.  It’s catching, particularly if you have to wear a hospital gown.

Never mind, of course, that all the Unclean People already share their medical facilities.  Maybe they don’t realize this, because generally speaking when you go to the doctor, you only see a minuscule fraction of the patients he’s got in the waiting room.  Maybe they’ve convinced themselves that the Unclean People are kept out from lack of insurance.  Sadly, many of us are, but certainly not all or even most.  We’re already sharing their facilities.

So, only 60,000 people showed up.  Compared to the number 2.2 million that was flying around, that sounds like a pittance.  But Nate Silver was right that we ignore the teabaggers at our own peril:

Mock the protesters at your peril: business as usual suddenly isn’t so good for Democrats these days, and the sentiments of the 70,000 people who marched on Washington surely mirror those of millions more sitting at home.

He’s exactly right.  The people who agree with the teabaggers that it’s them the Clean People against the Unclean People dominate politics in some part of the country.  They dominate white rural areas, where they flock to escape the Uncleanliness that festers in our filthy cities.  And they are angry.  We should realize they are out there, and they’re a threat.  But we should also realize they’re unbending, superstitious, and more than a little nuts, and they can’t be reasoned with or compromised with.

This sign, I thought, was the most interesting and indicative of teabagger concerns and delusions:

It says, “Robbin’ for the Hood: The Legend of Socialism”.  (Lindsay has many more, plenty with racism as their “argument”.)  It’s interesting, because it’s just further evidence that those of us who see “socialism” as a racist code word aren’t crazy.  Also, there’s the continued city-bashing.  What I thought was really interesting was that whoever made this sign seemed to think that using Robin Hood as a stand-in for the villain was a good idea.  Most of us understand that Robin Hood is the hero of the stories about Robin Hood.  But wingnuts tend to reflectively see Robin Hood as a villain.  This isn’t the first time I’ve been puzzled by this.  In Texas, opponents of laws that would create more equal spending between school districts have deemed such laws “Robin Hood Laws”.  Again, they don’t see a problem with trotting out a traditional hero as a villain and expecting everyone else to play along.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:58 AM • (98) Comments

And every last Teabigot has a 10+” cock, too.

Comment #1: Ms Kate  on  09/14  at  11:01 AM

This is a brilliant post. I have been saying for months that racism comes out in many different layers; some of it is obvious and some of it is subtle. It’s ingrained in some people from generations of family beliefs. I heard a lot of blatant racism from my maternal grandmother, using the “N-word” for example, but in other ways, like when she complained that she couldn’t wear purple because it made her look “a high yellow”. I never knew half the time what those veiled insults were, but I do now.

I was fortunate to have a mother who simply would not tolerate racism. She kept my dad, who had learned it from his mother, from making racist remarks while we kids were growing up. He showed himself a few times that I can remember, but we were quick to chastise him.

The subtle racism may be more difficult to fight than the obvious. There are so many cultural and regional key words and behaviors that people don’t even realize what they’re saying or doing. I don’t know what it would take to start working away from these prejudices. I’ve already made sure that my three sons recognize what racism is and how they can not fall into some of the traps. I think we have to work family by family and hope that having a President who has darker skin will eventually start to turn the tide of hate. Maybe that’s just wishful thinking.

Comment #2: DonnaH  on  09/14  at  11:16 AM

Amanda, Robin Hood was listed as “the worst of the heroes” in Atlas Shrugged That might be why.

Comment #3: Siobhan  on  09/14  at  11:19 AM

They are clearly grossly inflating the numbers (reasonable estimates from reliable sources put the turn out in the 30-70K range) to inflate their egos and to shore up their outrageous claims that they represent “America” (more properly AmuriKKKa).  They represent a fairly small minority of Americans, but in a population of over 300 million, that is still a lot of people.  More importantly some (not all, but a sizable minority) are decidedly violence prone.  I am not really concerned with the teabaggers as a political movement, they really are the far right fringe, but rather with their potential for domestic terrorism.  I really think that we could see a resurgence of the rightwing terrorism that we saw in the late 1970s and again in the 1990s.

Comment #4: DrDick  on  09/14  at  11:21 AM

We need to keep denouncing the Teabigots for their lies, but we should also learn the lessons of their successes. Or rather relearn those lessons, because the strategy that they are employing is straight out of what was once the left’s own playbook.  Exaggerating numbers? Take a look at the first of Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals (paraphrased here):

Rule 1: Power is not only what you have, but what an opponent thinks you have. If your organization is small, hide your numbers in the dark and raise a din that will make everyone think you have many more people than you do.

We should of course counteract this strategy when they use it. But we should recognize that it’s a very effective strategy, we shouldn’t be surprised when it works, and we should be taking advantage of it ourselves.

Comment #5: Ben Alpers  on  09/14  at  11:27 AM

Difficult to hide those numbers in the dark in the era of areal photography and standardized count methodologies.

Comment #6: Ms Kate  on  09/14  at  11:31 AM

And the Washington Post put their protest on the front page where a half a million protesters against the Iraq War in 2002 and probably 750,000 demonstrators in the March for Women’s Lives warranted either Metro or inside A coverage.

Some liberal media, eh?

Comment #7: louC  on  09/14  at  11:33 AM

On Stephen Green’s blog, a Tea Partier said he took her trash home with her on the Amtrak.  I asked if he had paid the unsubsidized cost of the train ride home and whether or not he had a private dump, but didn’t get an answer.  IOSIABPDI (pronounced Eye-Oh-See-Uppity): It’s only socialism if a black President does it.

There was also this brilliant comment:

“Since when did we the citizenry become the servant? Since when do WE work for THEM? They keep imbedding themselves into our lives, our lifestyles, creating class warfare which says you’re evil if you succeed and you’re a victim if you do not. They are fostering this belief of entitlement! WE didn’t do that, THEY did. They feel they are so omnipotent as to tell us that we MUST give to others in order to make their lives “fair,” all the while rewarding the losers and no-good sloughs of this nation and punishing the hardworking Americans — the very backbone of this country.

“We are not ignorant to what they’re doing… it just took this egotistical president and his egotistical democrat lackeys in Congress to start pulling these Chicago thug ghetto tactics on REAL America — of stealing from the haves to give to the DO-nots and WILL-nots — for us to stand up and say, “NOT ONE MORE DAY!” “—someone named Bethny

I accused that idiot of racism, but after further review, decided that the “ghetto” bit could have been a reference to Jews.  The taxation nonsense is even worse in some ways: imagine if she had to pay 1950s rates on her income!  Obama rolls things back to the days of Clinton and the first Bush, and it’s as if Trotsky and Lenin were elected, if things were taxed like in Eisenhower’s day, the Right would be burning our WWII generals in effigy right now, especially that Omar Bradley guy who’s probably a Muslim.

Comment #8: 3letterjon  on  09/14  at  11:37 AM

It’s amusing that while the wingnuts were decrying Robin Hood as a “socialist” (oh nos!) and a villain, BBC America was premiering their latest version of the legend. Frequent cries that Robin needs to “stand up for justice,” a black Friar Tuck, and the Sheriff of Nottingham taking about the importance of “homeland security.” It lacks subtlety to be sure, but it’s easy to see why wingnuts hate the legend, particularly the latest adaptation of it. It’s just not clear why they think the rest of us would hate a clever class traitor who steals from tax collectors and stops thuggish cops.

Comment #9: histro-geek  on  09/14  at  11:39 AM

I think we have to work family by family and hope that having a President who has darker skin will eventually start to turn the tide of hate. Maybe that’s just wishful thinking.

I don’t think that’s wishful thingking, DonnaH. I just think we must realize that ‘culture wars’ of this kind are long, complicated, drawn-out conflicts with thousands of apparently false starts, and it’s very hard to see any progress when you’re in the middle of it.

Comment #10: atheist  on  09/14  at  11:43 AM

I’d always wondered why people in Texas thought the Robin Hood laws were so awful, and it really was because I couldn’t fathom Robin Hood as a villain. It still seems amazingly bizarre that anyone could have such a warped view—like those conservatives who identified more with the Empire than the rebels in the “Star Wars” movies.

I’m not sure you could pronounce it a psychological or moral defect, but I do think those folks should be required to carry identification indicating that they just might be sociopathic assholes.

Comment #11: Scott  on  09/14  at  12:02 PM

So where did the 60,000 estimate come from?  The D.C. Police?  The cops usually estimate the crowds pretty well.

Comment #12: Magis  on  09/14  at  12:04 PM

I don’t know if the sign was pointed as much at the Robin Hood myth as it was just straight-up racism.  The point of the sign seemed to be not so much that Obama is stealing from the rich to give to the poor (although I’m sure that has something to do with it).  It seemed much more to be the point of the sign that Obama is stealing from WHITE people to give their hard-earned money to BLACK people.  Note the text of the sign: “Robbin’ for the Hood,” meaning, well, I’m sure you understand what they were getting at in their heavy-handed, dull-witted, mouth-breathing way.

For that type of asshole, what they perceive Obama to be doing is much worse than Robin Hood’s robbing rich people to give to poor (white) people.

Comment #13: Rumblelizard  on  09/14  at  12:08 PM

Does it strike anyone else as weird that it’s mostly the people thought of as “dirty” who are traditionally put in charge of cleaning things?  If Mexicans are inherently “dirty,” wouldn’t your housekeeper be making your house even dirtier while in the process of cleaning it?

And for some reason, Amanda’s line about Wilson thinking of some people as “the sort he would let work on his yard but not use his bathroom” reminded me of a story that Chuck Jones tells in his book Chuck Amuck about how their (black) janitor made a point of using the studio head’s private bathroom every night, which everyone but the studio head knew and found funny as hell.  There wasn’t much rebellion he could show as an elderly black man in the 1940s, but they admired him for doing what he could do.

Comment #14: Mnemosyne  on  09/14  at  12:09 PM

As Siobhan points out, Robin Hood was indeed called out by Ayn Rand as being a villain.  Because he stole from the rich, that’s why!  And he gave it to the poor!

Now, what’s extra hilarious about that is, Robin Hood was stealing money that Prince John took from the people via cruel excess taxation.  So, all the Randian conservatives should really think he is a hero, since Robin Hood is boldly giving the people back the hard-earned money that they earned, and that Prince John stole from them via the Medieval IRS (i.e. the Sherrif).

But that would require a knowledge of literature, coupled with actual thought.  Enough said.

Comment #15: phantom power  on  09/14  at  12:17 PM

One of the winger comments I saw over at a right blog was that, as they imagine it, leftist protestors “leave” their trash for “government” to pick up. That’s right—paying the government to dispose of public trash is an abuse of the system, in their view. So the whole “we pick up our trash thing” (which I totally agree is also about purity and pollution and right/left views of the urban hellhole and dirty urban people) is also another example of the “smaller government/no govt services” notion.

aimai

Comment #16: aimai  on  09/14  at  12:19 PM

We should realize they are out there, and they’re a threat.

I don’t know if we needed an organized protest to be aware that there are millions upon millions of smug, ignorant douchebags in this country.

Comment #17: FlipYrWhig  on  09/14  at  12:21 PM

@phantom power, that conversation in Atlas Shrugged specifically mentions that—that people forget that Robin Hood was stealing BACK money stolen from the poor already, and only remember the “redistribution of wealth” part.  So he becomes the villain not for what he was, but for what he is currently believed to be.  Ayn was many things, imprecise was not one of them.

Comment #18: Siobhan  on  09/14  at  12:22 PM

Yeah, the Robin-Hood-as-villain meme comes directly from Atlas Shrugged.  The irony of course is that very few of these wingers have ever read it or understood it…if they had, for a number of reasons, it would be the last thing they would want to endorse.

Comment #19: Felix Culpa  on  09/14  at  12:26 PM

Huh.  I remember that conversation going very differently.  But then I read Atlas Shrugged twenty years ago.  And I am many things, but *not* precise.

Comment #20: phantom power  on  09/14  at  12:26 PM

I would like to believe that the protesters’ care about trash would go home with them, they’d start to consume less, reuse more, recycle things, and not overburden their landfills and add to the incredible amount of energy consumed in the hauling of trash.  But that would be asking them to become socialists, interfere with their lives in ways that are none of anyone’s business, and probably lead to the shooting of numerous trash collectors.

Comment #21: 3letterjon  on  09/14  at  12:28 PM

Ayn was many things, imprecise was not one of them.

We’re talking about Ayn Rand here, right?

Comment #22: Felix Culpa  on  09/14  at  12:28 PM

“One of the favorite myths being trotted out before the protesters had even cleared out was the myth that no trash was left behind.”

Some of the most memorable pictures from Woodstock were of the muddy, trash-covered field after it was over.  Because “Conservatives” are the Anti-Hippies, then they could not possibly have left trash behind, which is a purely DFH thing to do.

Therefore, after the Teabigots left, any place they were at was left immaculate, maybe even cleaner than it was before they came.  Their mere presence was enough to cause waves of cleanliness to sweep over Washington…

Comment #23: MikeEss  on  09/14  at  12:37 PM

You know, I blanch to link to anything that was originally published in National Review, but the review of Atlas Shrugged they published in 1957 is a laugh riot:

http://www.nationalreview.com/flashback/flashback200501050715.asp

I don’t agree with everything Chambers puts forth in the review (in fact, only about half), but boy, he essentially calls Rand and her whole world view out as silly adolescent fantasy.  I have forwarded this one in the past to “conservatives” who started spouting Randroid crap at me, and the response varies from stunned silence to claims that NR must have been part of the liberal media back then.

Comment #24: Felix Culpa  on  09/14  at  12:38 PM

OK, thanks to the wonder of the Inter-tubes, here is the original passage (which I still think is a completely retarded interpretation of Robin Hood.  But then Ayn Rand was nothing if not the Queen of Straw Men):

“I do approve of it, Mr. Rearden. But I’ve chosen a special mission of my own. I’m after a man whom I want to destroy. He died many centuries ago, but until the last trace of him is wiped out of men’s minds, we will not have a decent world to live in.” “What man?” “Robin Hood.” Rearden looked at him blankly, not understanding. “He was the man who robbed the rich and gave to the poor. Well, I’m the man who robs the poor and gives to the rich—or, to be exact, the man who robs the thieving poor and gives back to the productive rich.” “What in blazes do you mean?” “If you remember the stories you’ve read about me in the newspapers, before they stopped printing them, you know that I have never robbed a private ship and never taken any private property. Nor have I ever robbed a military vessel—because the purpose of a military fleet is to protect from violence the citizens who paid for it, which is the proper function of a government. But I have seized every loot carrier that came within range of my guns, every government relief ship, subsidy ship, loan ship, gift ship, every vessel with a cargo of goods taken by force from some men for the unpaid, unearned benefit of others. I seized the boats that sailed under the flag of the idea which I am fighting: the idea that need is a sacred idol requiring human sacrifices—that the need of some men is the knife of a guillotine hanging over others—that all of us must live with our work, our hopes, our plans, our efforts at the mercy of the moment when that knife will descend upon us—and that the extent of our ability is the extent of our danger, so that success will bring our heads down on the block, while failure will give us the right to pull the cord. This is the horror which Robin Hood immortalized as an ideal of righteousness. It is said that he fought against the looting rulers and returned the loot to those who had been robbed, but that is not the meaning of the legend which has survived. He is remembered, not as a champion of property, but as a champion of need, not as a defender of the robbed, but as a provider of the poor. He is held to be the first man who assumed a halo of virtue by practicing charity with wealth which he did not own, by giving away goods which he had not produced, by making others pay for the luxury of his pity. He is the man who became the symbol of the idea that need, not achievement, is the source of rights, that we don’t have to produce, only to want, that the earned does not belong to us, but the unearned does. He became a justification for every mediocrity who, unable to make his own living, has demanded the power to dispose of the property of his betters, by proclaiming his willingness to devote his life to his inferiors at the price of robbing his superiors. It is this foulest of creatures—the double-parasite who lives on the sores, of the poor and the blood of the rich—whom men have come to regard as a moral ideal. And this has brought us to a world where the more a man produces, the closer he comes to the loss of all his rights, until, if his ability is great enough, he becomes a rightless creature delivered as prey to any claimant—while in order to be placed above rights, above principles, above morality, placed where anything is permitted to him, even plunder and murder, all a man has to do is to be in need. Do you wonder why the world is collapsing around us? That is what I am fighting, Mr.
Rearden. Until men learn that of all human symbols, Robin Hood is the most immoral and the most contemptible, there will be no justice on earth and no way for mankind to survive.”

Comment #25: phantom power  on  09/14  at  12:51 PM

P.P. @ 15:

I would also think that Rand would disapprove of Prince John’s policy of taxation without representation.

Comment #26: CHV  on  09/14  at  12:58 PM

CHV:

Nuh-uh. As long as Prince John was just extorting taxes from lazy sots—and you have to know that they’re lazy, otherwise they wouldn’t be poor, would they—that would be perfectly in line with Rand’s thinking. It’s only if he taxed the rich that Rand would be complaining.

Comment #27: paul  on  09/14  at  01:04 PM

>>>“This is the horror which Robin Hood immortalized as an ideal of righteousness….Until men learn that of all human symbols, Robin Hood is the most immoral and the most contemptible, there will be no justice on earth and no way for mankind to survive.”

Jesus Christ, Ayn - dabble in histrionics (or drugs) much?

Although Robin Hood is loosely based on a real historical figure, his story is today far more rooted in pop culture and mythology.

Thus, Rand might as well be wailing about the “horrors” of Batman or Doctor Who.

Idiot…

Comment #28: CHV  on  09/14  at  01:05 PM

CHV, I think Rand would only have had a problem with the taxation part.  She would not have given a rip as to the representation part, for her possession of wealth was exactly how you were supposed to “represent.”

Comment #29: Felix Culpa  on  09/14  at  01:06 PM

I do remember a recent political event that drew in well over 2.2 million people.  Didn’t President Obama’s inauguration draw at least 3 million?

Comment #30: BadKitty  on  09/14  at  01:10 PM

So in other words, in the mind of Ayn Rand, the Corporate Robber Baron is king, and we serfs are just lazy bastards obstructing “progress”?

(The reason I’m asking is because I know very little about Rand; when it comes to political literature, I’m far more familiar with the likes of Orwell)

Comment #31: CHV  on  09/14  at  01:13 PM

Does it strike anyone else as weird that it’s mostly the people thought of as “dirty” who are traditionally put in charge of cleaning things?  If Mexicans are inherently “dirty,” wouldn’t your housekeeper be making your house even dirtier while in the process of cleaning it?

I think the thought process goes that these jobs are inherently dirty, ergo if you do them, through the contamination theory, you’ll be dirty yourself. “These people” are already dirty, so if they do this job it won’t sully them any more than they already are.

It’s how it works with the Untouchables caste in India after all.

Comment #32: BlackBloc  on  09/14  at  01:14 PM

CHV: Yep, your first sentence nicely encapsulated Atlas Shrugged.  In fact, it literally says pretty much that and nothing more, thousands of pages of filler material notwithstanding.

Comment #33: Felix Culpa  on  09/14  at  01:15 PM

That’s why Joe Wilson nearly had a heart attack at hearing about illegal immigrants getting care.  Yes, he heard it in the context of this being denied, but he was forced to picture it: Mexican immigrants, the sort he would let work on his yard but not use his bathroom, sitting right there in the hospital next to you!

And we go back to the post about the NHS hospital waiting area reflecting Britain top to bottom, rich and poor, black and white, while American hospitals and clinics remain a bastion of tacit segregation. Instead of the bullshit gun-montage “Celebrate Diversity” shirts, the ‘baggers should have been wearing ones that read “Celebrate Entitlement”.

Most of us understand that Robin Hood is the hero of the stories about Robin Hood.  But wingnuts tend to reflectively see Robin Hood as a villain.

There are actually medieval stories which portray Robin Hood as a villain, but they tend to come from high status sources. The fascinating thing about the Hood legend is that it was morphing from the moment it appeared: was Robin Hood a peasant, or was he (as the modern retellings seem to prefer) a lord who decided to abandon his privileged status and work on the side of the peasantry? Was he really working for the people, or for himself?

Because it gets told and retold so often, always in ways that reflect upon who’s telling the tale, it’s a great way to track social whatnots over time.

As for Rand, I’m not sure whether I should thank #25 for reminding me that she writes like an ice-pick to the skull.

Comment #34: pseudonymous in nc  on  09/14  at  01:18 PM

I dunno, AM - this is interesting wingnut gestalt, but the concept of purity isn’t exclusive to that group.  The commendable efforts to zero out one’s carbon footprint, for example.  Responsible thinking requires a delicate balance of idealism and pragmatism - the further a person strays from this, the further trend towards idealism of any sort.  In groups, this feedback loop is accelerated, as seen in the teabaggers.  Perhaps most pernicious are those who hew to closely to what I consider ‘radicalized pragmatism,’ the most obvious example being Broderism.

Comment #35: Tommy Deelite  on  09/14  at  01:20 PM

Thanks, Felix.

I think I’ll stick with George Orwell. As a matter of fact, I wonder if Orwell ever reviewed “Atlas” or commented on Rand’s politics in general?

Comment #36: CHV  on  09/14  at  01:21 PM

CHV: In the mind of Ayn Rand, there are two kinds of rich people.  There are deserving rich, who are the “motive force” of humanity.  The creators, Mighty Captains Of Industry, etc.  Then there are the undeserving rich, like the Ellsworth Tooheys of the world.

Another gaping hypocrisy of modern Randism is that our current financial Masters Of The Universe all seem to worship Ayn Rand, but they are all Ellsworth Tooheys: parasites who literally produce nothing.  They just shuffle papers around and skim huge fortunes in the process.  Oh, and incidentally crashed the world economy.  I do not think Ayn Rand would approve.

I suspect that Rand would consider the phrase “Corporate Robber Baron” as mostly a pernicious myth used to justify evils like socialism, unions, social safety nets, etc.

Comment #37: phantom power  on  09/14  at  01:24 PM

Yup.  That’s the passage.

Comment #38: Siobhan  on  09/14  at  01:25 PM

Heh, I think Orwell had bigger fish to fry than Ayn Rand. I have never heard he wrote an essay or anything like regarding her or “objectivism.” I imagine if anything exists, it would be one off comments here or there.

Comment #39: Felix Culpa  on  09/14  at  01:25 PM

@PP #37:  it took me nearly a dozen readings of Atlas Shrugged to figure that out—that what was wrong with her vision was that it was entirely possible to have ability and also be a “looter.”

Also, you will notice none of her good guys work for corporations or run publicly head companies.  All private, all the way.

Comment #40: Siobhan  on  09/14  at  01:27 PM

NC @ 34:

>>>As for Rand, I’m not sure whether I should thank #25 for reminding me that she writes like an ice-pick to the skull.

Quite frankly, Rand’s tone initially strikes me as a the voice of an elitist snob who’d happily tell a starving street kid to “get a job” before climbing into her Rolls Royce, and ordering her driver to spin the car’s back wheels to spray mud in said kid’s face as they drove off…y’know, just to let the little “parasite” know where he stands in Rand’s world.

Comment #41: CHV  on  09/14  at  01:31 PM

Indeed, Ayn Rand’s writing is as subtle as being hit by a falling anvil.

Comment #42: Doug S.  on  09/14  at  01:39 PM

@Siobhan #40—I think there were several basic facts about life and human nature that Ayn Rand failed to face up to.

1) Bad things happen to good people.  This is not a tragic exception, it is the human condition.  Conversely, good things can happen to bad people.  We can see the failure to grapple with this in all the arguments against govt health insurance, or pretty much all conservative arguments against every social safety net.

2) She seems to believe (whether she admits it or not) in the idea of the Benevolent Dictator.  In her world, if we all Just Got Out Of The Way Of The Smart People, everything would turn out for the good!  The idea that power corrupts, even Really Smart Good People, does not figure into her ideologies.  The idea that wealth is power seems lost on her.  T

3) The idea that in real life we all deal with huge numbers of interacting constraints, and our activities impact other people, and the way we try to cope with that is via laws and regulations and taxes, all of which she views as needless distractions and barriers to the Really Smart People.

As has been pointed out many times over the years, her ideology appeals to adolescents, who can still pretend the world is more simple and human nature is more benevolent than it really is.  Really, the fact that we put middle aged adults who still admire Ayn Rand in charge of the world economy is terrifying.  Man-children.

Comment #43: phantom power  on  09/14  at  01:45 PM

We have our own local wingnut radio host and this morning he was reporting on 1.5 million attending the DC event. That’s in Wilmington, NC and frankly the ease with which everyone accepts these numbers scares the shit out of me.

Comment #44: aftercancer  on  09/14  at  01:48 PM

To skip the comments and answer the post’s question, “Not 1/100th as we should be worried about insurance and pharmaceutical lobbyists.”

Comment #45: norbizness  on  09/14  at  01:49 PM

And, if you want the classic “capsule” response to Atlas Shrugged:

http://www.angryflower.com/atlass.gif

Comment #46: Felix Culpa  on  09/14  at  01:50 PM

Heh, I’m glad you mentioned the garbage thing. Just yesterday I saw this—CLEAN Conservatives vs FILTHY Liberals—on Yahoo and I couldn’t pin down the full propaganda value.

Also,

But we should also realize they’re unbending, superstitious, and more than a little nuts, and they can’t be reasoned with or compromised with.

Sure, we realize that, but it looks like we’re in the minority *cough*President Obama*cough*.

Comment #47: ema  on  09/14  at  01:55 PM

What I notice about the Teabaggers is the extent to which their worldview is defined by fear.  They are scared shitless and feel threatened by just about everything.  They are frightened little wimps.

Comment #48: Gizmo  on  09/14  at  02:07 PM

For the record, I don’t read Rand.
But I am a Robin Hood nut and have been since 74.
I have encountered the Robin=villain thing among the right. As I was in the process of writing a Robin novel at the time, I laughed my butt off. Then I proceded to explain the sherivalities and taxation and Baron’s War and all until the loons glazed over.

The Pyle version claims Robin was an Earl who lost his lands when he killed a king’s forester. (In fairness, the forester shot first and missed). Even in the most modern versions the loss of Locksley is an involuntary event and the driving force behind Robin. I haven’t encountered any where he gives it up voluntarily.  I wrote him as failing to pay the scutage and having his lands seized over that.

and this link is just for Ms. Kate at comment 1.

This whole teabagger situation never ceases to amaze me. Blatent lies, complete exaggerations, and everyone treats it like pure crystal fact.

Comment #49: Angelia Sparrow  on  09/14  at  02:07 PM

I’d extend it to say that the legions of the unclean in the wingnut pantheon extend way past just black people.  I’ve heard both hippies and Mexican immigrants literally called “dirty”.

And there was hypocrisy about it when it was applied to black people:

And so on, and so on. These proud boasts came, remember,
not from obscure private persons, but from “leading Georgians”
-in one case, the state historian. Curious sidelights upon the ex-
Confederate mind! Another comes from a stray copy of a Negro
paper. It describes an ordinance passed by the city council of
Douglas, Ga., forbidding any trousers presser, on penalty of forfeiting
a $500 bond, to engage in “pressing for both white and
colored.” This in a town, says the Negro paper, where practically
all of the white inhabitants have “their food prepared by colored
hands,” “their babies cared for by colored hands,” and “the clothes
which they wear right next to their skins washed in houses where
Negroes live”-houses in which the said clothes “remain for as
long as a week at a time.” But if you marvel at the absurdity, keep
it dark! A casual word, and the united press of the South will be
upon your trail, denouncing you bitterly as a scoundrelly
damnyankee, a Bolshevik Jew.

Obviously, it is impossible for intelligence to flourish in such
an atmosphere. Free inquiry is blocked by the idiotic certainties
of ignorant men. The arts, save in the lower reaches of the gospel
hymn, the phonograph and the political harangue, are all held in
suspicion. The tone of public opinion is set by an upstart class but
lately emerged from industrial slavery into commercial enterprise
-the class of “bustling” business men, of “live wires,” of commercial
club luminaries, of “drive” managers, of forward-lookers
and right-thinkers—in brief, of third-rate Southerners inoculated
with all the worst traits of the Yankee sharper. One observes the
curious effects of an old tradition of truculence upon a population
now merely pushful and impudent, of an old tradition of chivalry
upon a population now quite without imagination. The old repose
is gone. The old romanticism is gone. The philistinism of the new
type of town-boomer Southerner is not only indifferent to the ideals
of the Old South; it is positively antagonistic to them. That
philistinism regards human life, not as an agreeable adventure,
but as a mere trial of rectitude and efficiency. It is overwhelmingly
utilitarian and moral. It is inconceivably hollow and obnoxious.
What remains of the ancient tradition is simply a certain charming
civility in private intercourse—often broken down, alas, by the
hot rages of Puritanism, but still generally visible. The Southerner,
at his worst, is never quite the surly cad that the Yankee is. His
sensitiveness may betray him into occasional bad manners, but in
the main he is a pleasant fellow-hospitable, polite, good-humored,
even jovial. . . . But a bit absurd. . . . A bit pathetic.

H. L. Mencken

The Sahara of the Bozart

Link

Comment #50: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/14  at  02:09 PM

The fear is grounded in the potential for political violence that mobs have. Mobs attract agitators, and these mobs, in particular, are not only susceptible to suggestion, but many individuals are armed.

Comment #51: mnsr  on  09/14  at  02:11 PM

Bad things happen to good people.  This is not a tragic exception, it is the human condition.

This came up and G. told me about one of his favorite scenes on The Sopranos where Tony gets into an argument with his Russian girlfriend, who tells him that what’s wrong with Americans is that they always expect everything to go right for them and are shocked when it doesn’t.  By contrast she always expects things to go badly and is pleasantly surprised if anything turns out okay.

I guess Rand was more American than Russian after all.

My new favorite part of Rand’s biography according to Wikipedia:  she was an illegal immigrant because she overstayed her visa.

In late 1925, she was granted a visa to visit American relatives. She arrived in the United States on February 19, 1926,[18] entering by ship through New York City. After a brief stay with her relatives in Chicago, she resolved never to return to the Soviet Union, and set out for Hollywood to become a screenwriter.

Who wants to break it to the wingnuts?

Comment #52: Mnemosyne  on  09/14  at  02:15 PM

I think it’s pretty simple why wingnuts hate Robin Hood:  he’s a class traitor, just like FDR.

Comment #53: Mnemosyne  on  09/14  at  02:18 PM

On Stephen Green’s blog, a Tea Partier said he took her trash home with her on the Amtrak.

Well that’s one way to put it.

Comment #54: kth  on  09/14  at  02:18 PM

The first grossly inflated wingnut crowd estimate I recall was the so-called “Gathering of Eagles” counter-protest. If you’ll recall, a rumor went around the wingnut-o-sphere that a group at the upcoming antiwar protest was planning to desecrate the Vietnam Memorial, and they organized a group to “defend” it. (No such action was ever planned by anyone, of course, so they could pat themselves on the back about how gloriously successful they’d been in keeping tigers away.)

However, the other thing that happened was that the few hundred “Eagles” had a short march in a different part of DC, and since there weren’t any antiwar protesters there except a few who went by on their way to the Mall, it soon became received wisdom among all wingnuts across the country that “there were more of us than there were of them!!@!!” It was heavily promoted by Malkin, of course, and that time it was based on no outside crowd estimates whatsoever (since they didn’t have enough of a “crowd” to be worth anyone bothering to estimate.)

Just a reminder that this isn’t their first foray into claiming hundreds or thousands of times more participants than they actually had.

Comment #55: Redshift  on  09/14  at  02:23 PM

I think the thought process goes that these jobs are inherently dirty, ergo if you do them, through the contamination theory, you’ll be dirty yourself. “These people” are already dirty, so if they do this job it won’t sully them any more than they already are.

I always wonder about childcare, myself.  All childcare (other than that provided by parents) seems to be done by socially “inferior”, “dirty” people - recent immigrants, poor white women, guest workers.  All of them women, of course.  I have seen upper-class parents express racism and contempt towards the caregivers of their own children.  Are kids inherently dirty too, at least until they start being able to win spots in prestigious prep schools and make sparkling conversation at Daddy’s corporate events?

Comment #56: KristinMH  on  09/14  at  02:29 PM

All of this exaggeration of numbers also feeds into one of the key Conservative narratives: that they are the Silent Majority Oppressed By The Liberal Establishment.  They can’t afford to take their crappy inferior turnouts at face value.  It subverts their mythology.

Comment #57: phantom power  on  09/14  at  02:37 PM

“One of the favorite myths being trotted out before the protesters had even cleared out was the myth that no trash was left behind.”

But, no true Teabagger left any trash!

Comment #58: R. P. M.  on  09/14  at  02:51 PM

Conservatism can never fail, it can only be failed!

Comment #59: phantom power  on  09/14  at  02:57 PM

I have seen upper-class parents express racism and contempt towards the caregivers of their own children. Are kids inherently dirty too, at least until they start being able to win spots in prestigious prep schools and make sparkling conversation at Daddy’s corporate events

Even then. Because kids aren’t just your scions, destined to carry on the family fortunes, they’re also competitors.

That, and nasty classist/racist comments are a useful way for upperclass people to repress the anxiety that they feel about not being the best possible parents for their children (which is of course impossible, but for the wealthy nothing is impossible, hence the anxiety). If the kids are ill-behaved or not potty-trained at six months or have a diaper leak or whatever it is, it’s that nanny’s fault. For $8 an hour s/he really ought to have a PhD in child development and precognitive superpowers and 4 infinitely elastic limbs.

Comment #60: paul  on  09/14  at  03:24 PM

I guess me being a political sex blogger means I’m the one who has to grouse about the use and misuse of highly gendered body parts in political discourse.  Even though he’s a racist, violence-advocating anti-democratic demagogue Matt Kibbe’s body is no more Nate Silver’s business than, say, Michelle Bachman’s body would be.  In fact, because they’re both racist, violence-advocating, anti-democratic demagogues their bodies should be the least of our concerns.

Doing math it’s clear Nate Silver is implying Kibbe’s penis is less than two inches long.  Which makes Silver’s analogy a personal insult and not just snark.

But here’s the deal.  Even if you don’t lament in general terms those who accuse their opponents of being pencil-peckered, in this case we can all lament Silver specifically missing the opportunity to put Kibbe’s exaggerations in real perspective.

Kibbe almost certainly has an average-sized penis and not a micro-penis. Which means him estimating 2,000,000 attendees isn’t like him claiming a 53-inch penis, it’s like him claiming one 196 inches long!  Or 16 feet!  Or five and a third yards!  Or, I guess, almost five meters!

That said, Silver exaggerates downward by no more than a factor of 2 or 3, this compared to Kibbe’s exaggeration factor of between 16.7 (for the million-person estimate) and 33.3 (for the two-million estimate.)

figleaf

Comment #61: figleaf  on  09/14  at  03:35 PM

This presents me with a rare opportunity to bring up one of my favorite Monty Python sketches:

“When he says a bed is two feet wide… it is, in fact, sixty feet wide!”

Comment #62: scarshapedstar  on  09/14  at  04:09 PM

But, no true Teabagger left any trash!

Of course not ... that would imply that a socialist garbage collection system was not just desirable, but necessary!  Better to pretend that it is possible for government to not exist ... even when drowning in flood water.

Comment #63: Ms Kate  on  09/14  at  04:16 PM

Figleaf, why is it insulting to imply that what god gave you is not enough.

Unless you are the sort of person to put way too much about a man’s character on the size of his reproductive unit ...

Comment #64: Ms Kate  on  09/14  at  04:17 PM

I wonder if Orwell ever reviewed “Atlas”

Alas, he would have found that rather difficult, having died in 1950.

Comment #65: TruthOfAngels  on  09/14  at  04:29 PM

So I decided to do that which I have almost never done, and that was to listen to the <strike>David Duke</strike> Glenn Beck Show on the radio in my car as I was driving this afternoon.

OK, it’s bad enough that this deranged lunatic was spreading the lie about his D.C. Klan Rally exceeding 2 Million people before he got called out on it, but he’s still doing it TODAY!

And the figure has now apparantly jumped to 3.5 Million people!  Less than one hour ago, this psycopath was on the air claiming that he had been told by “reliable sources” that the crowd was actually closer to 3.5 Million people - double that of the Obama Inauguration.

Worst of all, he’s trying to frame this crowd size myth as if it is strictly the supposedly liberal media presenting the 60,000 figure, as if they just made it up out of thin air to try to make the racist clowns look bad.

It isn’t the NY Times that’s trying to cover up the monstrosity of your awesomeness, Beck, it’s the fucking Washington, D.C. Fire Department, about as non-ideological an organization as you could get.

I mean, does this sick fuck actually think that even the fire department is conspiring against “Real ‘Mericans™”, now too?

I believe that this man, Glenn Beck, has now surpassed even Rush Limbaugh in his delusional sense of self-importance… the dude literally thinks he’s going to be the general leading the revolution to oust our blackazoid president.  He is certifiably mentally ill.  Not hyperbole - the man has more narcissistic rage and has bigger delusions of grandeur than anyone I have ever heard in the political media in my entire life.

And here’s the real danger.  His cult followers see themselves as the rising second Confederacy in America.  They really believe that they have the numbers to start an actual revolution, to overthrow our elected officials.  These people, who may have had some shred of sanity a year ago, have fallen completely in line with the ideological belief system of the Stormfront white nationalist community.  A year ago, almost none of them would have considered it a good thing to have a full blown civil war… now quite a few of them are actually praying for that very thing.

And because Beck tells them that there were several million of them in D.C. this weekend, they truly believe it, and there’s absolutely no reasoning with them.  It is as much a fact to them as is their insane belief that Earth is only 6,000 years old.  I know, I’m related to a person who believes Beck’s figures… a person who is otherwise at least a somewhat rational human being (he’s not a creationist), who genuinely believes that the crowd was much closer to being in the millions than the figures determined by the D.C. Fire Department.

I do sometimes fear that his foaming at the mouth is going to cause something really bad to happen.  And I swear to God, if something does happen - namely the worst fear many of us have about the real desires of these sick fucks - I hope our side responds by torching his house to the ground with him inside.  Yeah, yeah, I know, we’re supposed to be “better than that”.  Not on this.  Progressives sat back and watched these same people foment the anger that took out JFK, MLK, and RFK.  They won’t get away with it again.  If they push it that far, they damnwell better expect to see bloodshed on their side, all the way up to the top.

If this asshole really gets what he wants - and let’s not kid ourselves, what he really wants is to see one of his cult followers take matters into their own hands against the president - we’re going to have a second Civil War.

Comment #66: DTG in STL  on  09/14  at  04:42 PM

Where’s Representative Wilson now that someone is actually lying?  I guess he lives in some backwards world where lies are truth and facts are lies.  Or maybe he doesn’t care about honesty at all and only cares about winning in some big political game.

Comment #67: bananacat  on  09/14  at  04:58 PM

FDL shows a picture of an overflowing trash can to deflate wingnutteria claims of “spotless” protests.  Frankly, I find this weak.

If FDL wanted to impute the idiots, show the PARK filled with trash, not an inadequate trash can.  After all, if you are trying to get the trash into a can but can’t because its full, it’s not your fault.

FAIL.  On something that should have been a slam dunk.

Comment #68: Eric_RoM  on  09/14  at  05:05 PM

“via the Medieval IRS (i.e. the Sherrif).”

far worse then the IRS, the Sherrif was a tax farmer
There is a reason that tax farmers were the first sent to the guillotine after the french revolution

When I hear wingnut calls to “abolish the IRS” I always think that they are plotting to bring tax farming back

Comment #69: jefft452  on  09/14  at  05:33 PM

The subtle racism may be more difficult to fight than the obvious.

Absolutely it is, and they know that.  I was listening to someone on Air America the other day, he was an African-American radio host from XM Sirius’ The Power, and he was taling about the difficulty of having to battle againt the racism of James T. Crow, Esq., which has all the appearances of being more civilized and less uncouth than the racism of James’ rube-like previous incarnation, Jim Crow, but is every bot as disgusting in it’s impact.

Cardinal Rule of the James T. Crow, Esq. school of racist thought - you don’t say the word “nigger”.  EVER.  Furthermore, you actually chastise anyone who does and act horrified that they would utter such a word.  But every other aspect of white privilege stays intact, and every other racist thought process stays intact.

Yes, a lot of these people genuinely think that as long as they never say the word “nigger” and as long as they publicly state disgust for the word, then therefore they are absolved from all accusations of racism.  Because you know, racism can only manifest itself by uttering a six-letter word as an epithet.  As long as you don’t utter that word in contempt when referring to African-Americans, nothing else you could possibly do could ever be construed as racist in the minds of these, well… racists.  It’s magic - 400 years of oppression wiped clean by disavowing oneself from a word.

Comment #70: DTG in STL  on  09/14  at  05:35 PM

Tax farming—that’s a new term to me, but I see that it would fit in perfectly with the GOP fetish for privatization of govt functions.  Like extending the use of mercenaries to tax collection.

Thanks, jefft452 (I think)

Comment #71: phantom power  on  09/14  at  05:43 PM

phantom power@71

For real scary stuff, look up the history of “patent medicines” and “the traveling medicine show”

returning to the paradigm before the IRS would suck, returning to the paradigm before the FDA would be a killer

Comment #72: jefft452  on  09/14  at  05:49 PM

Also, it wasnt untill 1934 that there was any requirement that your job paid in legal tender
they could pay you in company script that you could only spend is stores owned by the company

Comment #73: jefft452  on  09/14  at  05:54 PM

We need to keep denouncing the Teabigots for their lies, but we should also learn the lessons of their successes. Or rather relearn those lessons, because the strategy that they are employing is straight out of what was once the left’s own playbook.  Exaggerating numbers? Take a look at the first of Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals (paraphrased here):

Rule 1: Power is not only what you have, but what an opponent thinks you have. If your organization is small, hide your numbers in the dark and raise a din that will make everyone think you have many more people than you do.

We should of course counteract this strategy when they use it. But we should recognize that it’s a very effective strategy, we shouldn’t be surprised when it works, and we should be taking advantage of it ourselves.


I’d say that the strategy has been EXTREMELY effective for the teabigots.  I mean, despite the embarrasing FAIL they’ve just had in blowing up their 9/12 numbers to ridiculous levels, they had a TON of success in the month of August at the townhall meetings.

Consider this - over a four week timespan, we heard about countless townhalls where senators and representatives were getting shouted down everywhere by angry throngs of American citizens.

But is that actually what happened?

There are 435 Congresspeople and 100 Senators.  While not all of thm held townhalls in August, the vast majority did, and most of them held several townhalls during the recess.

Which means that it’s fairly likely that there were roughly 1,000 or so such events throughout the whole month of August.  And yet, the number of events where such uprisings occurred wasn’t anywhere near 1,000.  In fact, if you are a citizen who went to a constituents’ townhall meeting this past August, odds are fairly safe that you didn’t see large gatherings of crazy people shouting about death panels.

It isn’t really that there are so many of them… it’s more just that the behavior of so many of them is so outlandish that they became the top story on every evenings’ newscast when they do things like scream “Heil Hitler” at an Israeli man, leading the American public to the false impression that this phenomenon was so widespread as to be commonplace at ALL of the townhall events.  And the media, including sadly, the liberal blogosphere, played along, and got taken for a ride.

By helping to fuel the image that these folks had more influence than they actually did, it actually impacted the approval ratings of the President of the United States.  While support for reform still remains strong in the polls, the White House and Congress have been shaken up and are acting afraid of their own shadows now.  The narrative has been driven by a small group of really loud wingnuts.  And we played along, too.  If the public option dies, it will be in no small part because of the handful of very determined screamers who got their 15 minutes all around the country last month.

Comment #74: DTG in STL  on  09/14  at  05:59 PM

I accused that idiot of racism, but after further review, decided that the “ghetto” bit could have been a reference to Jews.

That’s believable only if the originator of the comment grew up in 1930s Poland.

Comment #75: DTG in STL  on  09/14  at  06:02 PM

I’d always wondered why people in Texas thought the Robin Hood laws were so awful, and it really was because I couldn’t fathom Robin Hood as a villain. It still seems amazingly bizarre that anyone could have such a warped view—like those conservatives who identified more with the Empire than the rebels in the “Star Wars” movies.

No doubt.

Though it was we on the Left who originally started referring to Dickhead Cheney as “Darth Cheney”, it eventually came to be a source of pride for the sociopaths on the Right.  Not only do many of them not take any offense to Cheney being called “Darth Cheney”, they actually seem to be proud of the fact that he’s seen that way by most Americans.  It’s like a reverse popularity contest - the lower his poll numbers sank, the more they loved and defended the guy.

Comment #76: DTG in STL  on  09/14  at  06:08 PM

So where did the 60,000 estimate come from?  The D.C. Police?  The cops usually estimate the crowds pretty well.

D.C. Fire Department, I believe.

Comment #77: DTG in STL  on  09/14  at  06:10 PM

I do remember a recent political event that drew in well over 2.2 million people.  Didn’t President Obama’s inauguration draw at least 3 million?

The most frequently used figure is 1.8 Million along the National Mall on January 20, 2009, which still makes it the largest inaugural ever (LBJ’s in 1965 had 1.2 Million).

Per Wikipedia (which sources WaPo for their number):

No official count was taken of the number of people attending the inaugural ceremony, although multiple sources concluded that the ceremony had the largest audience of an event ever held in Washington, D.C. Government agencies and federal officials, who coordinated security and traffic management, determined the attendance count to be 1.8 million people based on information collected by several cameras and individuals on the ground. The Washington Post reported the estimated crowd size for the inaugural ceremony, and the National Park Service said it did “not contest” the estimate.

Comment #78: DTG in STL  on  09/14  at  06:31 PM

Heh, I’m glad you mentioned the garbage thing. Just yesterday I saw this—CLEAN Conservatives vs FILTHY Liberals—on Yahoo and I couldn’t pin down the full propaganda value.

On behalf of all residents of the Gateway city of St. Louis, Missouri, I sincerely apologize for the obnoxious inanity that is “Gateway Pundit”.

Comment #79: DTG in STL  on  09/14  at  06:37 PM

Gizmo @ 48:

>>>What I notice about the Teabaggers is the extent to which their worldview is defined by fear.

So is the NRA. If it weren’t for fear and fear-mongering, they would have gone out of business for lack of membership ages ago.

Mnemosyne @ 53:

>>>I think it’s pretty simple why wingnuts hate Robin Hood:  he’s a class traitor, just like FDR.

So that makes Will Scarlett the obvious commie of the Merry Men, and Friar Tuck the scurrelous deadbeat whose holding back America’s drivers of wealth.

Now it’s all starting to fit together! Thank you, Miss Rand!

Comment #80: CHV  on  09/14  at  07:10 PM

Check out the following quote from today’s “Slate” article (by Chris Beam) covering the teabaggers’ march over the weekend. It’s ironic as hell (esp the final line) when one considers the Rand-centric conversations above:

“Nearby, a group of well-dressed men and women, calling themselves Billionaires for Wealthcare, who waved signs—“Less Health, More Wealth,” “Let Them Eat Advil,” “Do No Harm … To Our Bottom Line”—and sang songs about how health care reform would destroy their posh lives.

Not everyone realized it was a joke.

One protester sang along with the song, sung to the tune of “The Battle Hymn of the Republic,” which had the chorus, “Let’s save the status quo.” Another protester was baffled. “They spin everything you say!” she said to me. “You think they’re on your side, but then they’re not!” One volunteer for Tea Party Patriots was convinced they were on his side. “They’re for us,” he told me. “They’re wealthy, so they’re thanking everybody for coming.”“

http://www.slate.com/id/2228110/pagenum/all/#p2

Comment #81: CHV  on  09/14  at  07:29 PM

Siobhan, you read Atlas Shrugged a DOZEN times? I am so sorry.

Comment #82: felagund  on  09/14  at  07:31 PM

@Miss Kate: “Figleaf, why is it insulting to imply that what god gave you is not enough.”

It’s entirely possible Kibbe’s penis is (um, 53/33.3, um) 1.6 inches long.  And even if it is it’s still no more appropriate to mock than, say, Alan Greenspan’s big ears or Ann Coulter’s adams apple.  If instead Silver’s just casting aspersions with no basis then it’s like calling someone else “flat chested”—a rendered judgment about someone’s sexual being that’s not material to the point you’re actually disputing with him or her.  And that’s just the high-road side.

The low road is that if Silver had extrapolated from an assumed average size instead of an implied micro-penis size the scope of Kibbe’s lie about (crowd) size would have been shown to be even more egregious.

figleaf

Comment #83: figleaf  on  09/14  at  08:09 PM

“And we go back to the post about the NHS hospital waiting area reflecting Britain top to bottom, rich and poor, black and white, while American hospitals and clinics remain a bastion of tacit segregation. Instead of the bullshit gun-montage “Celebrate Diversity” shirts, the ‘baggers should have been wearing ones that read “Celebrate Entitlement”.”

I’ve seen a similar situation to the above NHS vs. Marcus Welby argument here in Southern California.  My employer offers a couple of choices for health plans.  One is a huge hospital-based nonprofit (whose name rhymes with ‘Miser’) this somewhat resembles a smaller, private version of the NHS - based around clinics and hospitals, the Foundation owns the facilities, the physicians are salaried, etc.  It is also the less expensive option (statewide, I believe), so the patient demographic skews toward the less-than-wealthy, and its history of growing out of the steel industry gives it a blue collar rep.  One of the others is a highly regarded PPO plan (whose name rhymes with ‘True Dross’). It costs more, but you get to to to any doctor you want, etc etc.

While I was filling out my paperwork as a new hire, the benefits rep described the options and said something to the effect that because I was a fairly high-level employee, I’d probably want True Dross, and was surprised when I said no.  I had my reasons - two jobs ago I had Miser (the only option).  In my last job, I had a plan similar to True Dross (again, the only option).  With Miser, if my doctor decided I needed a test of some sort, he ordered it and I literally went downstairs to get it done.  Sometimes I would have to wait a week to get an appointment.  I never had to pay more than the standard doctor visit copay.  With True Dross, if I needed a test, my doctor would request approval.  Once I had approval, I had to go find a place to get it done, pay and get reimbursed.  In other words, one system worked well and cost less, but the waiting rooms tended to be full of brown people and crying babies, and sometimes I would have to stand in line at the pharmacy.  The other was inefficient and more expensive, but had nicer waiting rooms with fewer, whiter people in them.

The trend among my co-workers over the last five years or so is for the True Dross clients to get increasingly frustrated with authorizations, deductibles, etc, switch to Miser and end up happier. 

Ranting about this also reminded me - what’s the fetish about ‘being able to choose your doctor’?  It’s a health plan, not a dating service. I don’t care if we ‘click’.  I don’t want my doctor to tell me things I want to hear, I want her to tell me what I need to know, whether I want to hear it or not. The incident where I had to hunt for a place to do a needed test made it clear for me.  How the hell am I supposed to evaluate and choose a practitioner in a field I know nothing about?  Especially when I feel crummy already?  Thank God I was with Miser when I needed an oncologist; I was in no mental state to make an informed decision and probably would have put it off.  Instead, I just had to go down the hall to find someone who was (a) highly qualified (Harvard undergrad, UCLA med school) and (b) a caring, warm ‘wise Latina’.

Comment #84: JadedOptimist  on  09/14  at  09:18 PM

Amanda’s post on the “trash” meme reminds me of the chapter about the soap advertisements in Anne McClintock’s Imperial Leather (a rather heavy on the theory, but entertaining decon of colonial fantasies, including King Solomon’s Mines and the private diaries of a Victorian BDSM fetishist, hence the title). The idea that black people were “dirty” was used to sell soap in Victorian Britain, getting the colonialists’ linens and bodies (if not their minds) whiter than white, and indirectly laundering colonial profits.

Mary Douglas’ Purity and Danger is a more general anthro study of how cultures think about dirt, though older (late ‘60s) and thus a bit stuffy.

“Trash” probably reflects the marchers’ anxieties not to be seen as “white trash,” which they are, of course, not for being poor and isolated, but for having such bigoted views.

Comment #85: sara  on  09/14  at  09:30 PM

And one that still holds quite a bit of currency; a recent study (and unfortunately, I can’t find the link) suggests that most Americans continue to associate “black” with dirtiness and “white” with cleanliness.

Are they referring to “black” and “white” the skin colors, or the actual colors “black” and “white”?

Comment #86: Devonian  on  09/14  at  09:33 PM

In agreement with comment #68:  I grew up in Texas, during the midst of the “robin-hood” school tax program.  My family (and I would imagine, a good number of these protesters) don’t recycle, and don’t consider themselves environmentalists.  I would imagine the average protester would look at the picture of the overflowing trash can, and see no inconsistency between that and the idea that they had not left any trash.  Their responsibility for the garbage that they generate ends when they put it in a trash can - they have thrown it away, rather than littering.

Comment #87: transman  on  09/14  at  10:30 PM

Phantom Power (15):

Robin Hood was stealing money that Prince John took from the people via cruel excess taxation.

More or less, but the ballads and thus the legend postdate Coeur de Leon, whose brother is a much later addition. But certainly “rich” and “poor” labelled very, very different concepts and groups of people in the 13th century than they do now.

Now, if you are going to go with Oc-E-No and his brother, well, the brother was a usurper who oppressed the lower classes, didn’t care about ethnic minorities, and pursued a war against pretended enemies in the Middle East. So ...

Comment #88: Hershele Ostropoler  on  09/14  at  10:33 PM

What I thought was really interesting was that whoever made this sign seemed to think that using Robin Hood as a stand-in for the villain was a good idea.  Most of us understand that Robin Hood is the hero of the stories about Robin Hood.  But wingnuts tend to reflectively see Robin Hood as a villain.

Across all the different versions, Robin Hood has a couple of themes in common:
1) Robin only steals from corrupt, lazy, greedy people who use their positions of power (both secular and clerical) to unjustly extract money and property (including daughters) from the honest, hard-working, salt of the earth folk. He stops more than one robbery when he discovers the victim is a fair noble, devout clergyman, or honorable knight returning from war.
2) Robin’s antagonists are illegitimate at best and criminal at worst. From the usurper Prince John to the tax-stealing, land-grabbing, railroading sheriff and bishops, the government is a bloated parasite: officials explicitly steal tax money to increase their personal fortunes; they use prison and torture to unjustly gain power and suppress dissent.
In other words, Robin most often fights the things that the wingnuts claim to be fighting.

As far as that poster goes, I just have to say that Obama doesn’t make a half bad Errol Flynn.

Comment #89: Dorothy  on  09/14  at  11:06 PM

JadedOptimist, I was with Miser for years and years, too.  I got great care there, but they changed their prescription formulary so they would only cover prescriptions that came in generic form.  If it didn’t come as a generic, you paid full price.  Period.  That didn’t seem to me to be fulfilling their claim that they let doctors decide about care.

I ended up switching to a regular insurance plan that rhymes with Enigma.  I was able to pick a sole practitioner so at least I should be able to avoid the nightmare that was Aetna and me seeing a doctor in an emergency who was part of the same practice but not my actual PPO so therefore I wasn’t covered.  Even though I’m pretty sure I saw said doctor in the same frickin’ exam room where I saw my regular doctor.

(No, I’m not giving those assholes at Aetna the fig leaf of a rhyming name.  They can go fuck themselves.)

Comment #90: Mnemosyne  on  09/14  at  11:08 PM

Mnemosyne,

Comment #91: JadedOptimist  on  09/15  at  01:17 AM

If it didn’t come as a generic, you paid full price

I think that depends on the deal your employer worked out. When we had it there were two price caps, one for generic and one for non-generic.

Comment #92: Hector B.  on  09/15  at  02:17 AM

I think that depends on the deal your employer worked out.

Possibly, but the Giant Evil Corporation I work for is giant enough and evil enough that Miser would want to cut a good deal for them.  Even as a lowly peon I get pretty amazing health coverage, including mental health and chiropractic.

Comment #93: Mnemosyne  on  09/15  at  03:23 AM

just a side comment -

picking your own doctor can be *really* damned important - i went thru *YEARS* of having to see the doctor my insurance sent me to, and those doctors refusing to accurately diagnose, let alone treat, what was wrong with my leg.

which is why i haven’t been here (at Pandagon) since like the 25th or 26th of August, becaus i just finally 2 years ago found doctors who believed and would treat me, and i had to have another (the 5th) surgery…

*THAT* is what the “pick your own doctor” stuff is about - finding a doctor who will actually listen, believe, and try to diagnose and treat. there are all too many doctors who decide if you don’t have something directly terminal, you should just go home and take tylenol. and so patients NEED the right and the ability to say “this doctor isn’t actually treating me i want a new one” or “i want a second opinion” or “this doctor does things i don’t like” (this last is also all-too-common, especially towards college-age girls. i have recently been to a specialist who only noticed i was an OSU student, and he spent most of the appointment time trying to ask me out. and was totally offended when i told him that hitting on his patients was inethical and could lose him his license - he demanded to know how i, a “callow young college girl” would know such things. i really don’t have the words to describe how horrible he was, slimy and eeew! thankfully, my main doctor accepted my pronunciation of “guy’s a total slime-bag who did nothing more than try and get me to sleep with him”, and found me a different specialist.)

Comment #94: denelian  on  09/15  at  04:44 AM

Thanks, figleaf.  I’ve had friends and lovers with all different size and shape generative organs, and I never noticed any correlation between those characteristics and their human qualities.  It’s pretty ridiculous for feminists to be judging anyone that way.

Comment #95: oldfeminist  on  09/15  at  04:46 AM

denelian, I hope your surgery went well.  I’ve been concerned that you hadn’t been commenting yet…

smile

Comment #96: MikeEss  on  09/15  at  09:18 AM

aaaw, thanx Mike smile

it went really well, actually. but the surgeon removed a large piece of the lining of my hip, and until just a couple days ago, while i was home, i was ALSO still on Duladid. i sometimes post silly things on my *normal* pain meds - so i didn’t come back here until i was off the Duladid smile

i’m doing pretty well - i can even walk already, at good points, without the cane for small distances. i still need the cane most of the time, but not *all* of the time anymore - so it’s looking up! [knock on wood]

Comment #97: denelian  on  09/15  at  01:46 PM

(and i did mean that - it is very nice of you to have been concerned - i appreciate it)

Comment #98: denelian  on  09/15  at  01:47 PM

Glad to hear it.

Hope things get even better…

Comment #99: MikeEss  on  09/15  at  03:07 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.