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Next entry: There won’t be a male birth control pill Previous entry: CSA Week 6: Blueberries are overwhelming me

HPV, the public health, and sexual choices

So, Mary Elizabeth Williams has called me hysterical and claimed I'm ruining feminism with my supposed irrationality because, on Twitter, I criticized a piece she wrote about her pediatrician accidentally giving her daughter the first dose of HPV instead of the scheduled meningitis shot.  When a cascade of people attacked me, I defended my point of view, both that the heavy drama surrounding this was unnecessary and, far more importantly, that Williams' choice to treat the HPV shot as somehow separate and more fraught than every other vaccine fed a very dangerous narrative about this vaccine, and she should have been more responsible.  Her response minimized and distorted her original piece, and overplayed my reaction, in my opinion.  But let's take my objections one at a time, for clarity's sake. 

Objection #1: Dramatics

This one's on me.  I accused Williams of being overdramatic by turning a minor mistake into a big deal that upset her daughter so much that she was, in Williams' words "scared and sobbing and, on a very primal level, angry and betrayed."  Even though Williams swears she was calm and acknowledges mistakes happen, she describes wanting to "throttle" the nurse, and claimed her daughter was "robbed" not just of a childhood so far free of minor medical errors, but of her right to make choices about her own sexuality.  

I was raised in a "suck it up" culture, and my first inclination in situations like this would be to remember that medical errors are incredibly common, and be grateful that when my number came up, the worst thing that would happen to me is that I have a significantly reduced chance of dying of cervical cancer.  But I fully admit this is a personal choice.  There are good and bad sides to the chilled-out approach and good and bad sides to making a big deal out of stuff.  My irritation at the dramatics was unfair; I should apply the "suck it up" mentality to other people's dramatics and say, "No big deal. That's just how they are."  

Objection #2: Toxic narratives about the HPV vaccine

In fact, sucking it up when someone else's dramatics irritate me is usually what I do, with a side dose of reminding myself that dramatic people often stand up against everyday injustices to the betterment of us all.  But the reason this pissed me off was that Williams juiced up her story by invoking a toxic narrative about the HPV vaccine, that it's the "sex shot" and therefore is unique amongst all other vaccinations, requiring a lot of hand-wringing about personal choice.  My problem with this narrative is that it feeds the notion that sexual health is separate from other kinds of health, and that continues the politicization of it and feeds right wing narratives that sexual health care is morally corrupt in a way that other health care isn't. 

I think that responsible journalists should not add to the pile.  STIs are not different than other diseases; the only difference is political, not biological.  HPV in particular is ridiculous to politicize, since it's so common that it's wise to treat getting it as an inevitability if you don't get the vaccination. Indeed, the most important difference between the HPV vaccination and other vaccination isn't the sex stuff, but the fact that you probably get more individual protection from the HPV vaccination.  Most people have measles and whooping cough vaccines, offering the unvaccinated herd immunity.  But with the HPV vaccine, there's only 11% compliance, meaning that your unvaccinated kid's chance of getting HPV as an adult should still be treated as an inevitability.  Sadly, we'll be seeing 4,000 deaths and 12,000 cases of cervical cancer a year for some time yet.  

If you read that link, you'll see that there are many reasons for the low vaccination rate, including cost and ignorance.  However, the perception that this is the "sex shot" has a lot to do with it.  The belief that getitng the vaccination has some sort of sexual implications for your child makes people uncomfortable and unwilling to engage; Williams added to the pile by using the sex aspects of the shot to turn up the interest in her story. 

This particular criticism stung, I'm guessing, since Williams objected to it on Twitter and engaged in a little retcon about the sex stuff, claiming that this is solely about the fact that the HPV vaccine is "optional".  She minimized the way that she treated the HPV vaccine as somehow fundamentally different than other vaccines, and in her follow-up piece, continued to minimize and imply that she treats all "optional" medical decisions as belonging to an 11-year-old and not her parents.  

But that is  not how the original story read.  Let's start with Williams' attitude towards vaccinations that prevent non-sexual infections. 

Meanwhile, she still needs to get that meningitis shot, and I'm going to make damn sure that's the shot she gets.

Light, fluffy, no big deal, right?   Vaccinations are something responsible parents make "damn sure" that their kids get, because responsible parents understand not just the importance of preventive health care, but also that their kids are members of a large community and owe it to that community to do their part in providing herd immunity.  You, as a responsible parent, would never consider skipping the MMR or the meningitis shot, because duh, vaccinations are a private and public good.  

Interestingly, this common sense approach was in the same paragraph as this language about the HPV vaccination:

While my daughter and I are not ruling out changing pediatricians, she has decided to proceed with the course of vaccination. She didn't come to it lightly; she slept on it and shyly told me her wishes the next day. She is a serious girl, and treated this is a serious choice.

I'm sure Williams was completely consistent and also had her daughter sleep on the serious decision of whether or not to take her chances with meningitis.

Williams' claim was that she treated these shots differently because the HPV vaccine is optional and meningitis is not.  On Twitter I pointed out that the HPV vaccine should be mandatory, and the only reason it's not is sex hysteria.  When things aren't mandated because of political bullshit, but should be mandated, it's different than something that can be considered truly optional.  When I was a kid, it was legal to ride in a car without a seatbelt, but my parents didn't believe it was optional in our house, because they believed it should be the law.  I imagine if  conservatives get their way and public schooling stops being mandatory, Williams would also keep sending her kids to school.  

In a sense, all this is irrelevant, because in the original story, the fact that HPV is the "sex shot" loomed large as to why it had to be a big deal.  A telling quote:

And though I believe in the logic of getting the HPV vaccine, I have also long felt strongly that any decision involving their future sexual lives should be theirs to make.

That's the major problem. The choice of whether or  not to get HPV as an adult is more about your future health than your future sex life.  (And that's setting aside the logic of giving an 11-year-old the right to decide for her 20-year-old self whether or not to invite the possibility genital warts, cervical scrapings, infertility and even cancer into her life.)  Government officials and drug developers designed and regulated the vaccine to minimize the psychological association between the shot and having sex.  Part of that is scheduling the first vaccination years before the average girl starts having sex, in part to get complete coverage, but also so that it's not fraught like the conversation of whether or not to put a girl on birth control.  You just start getting the shots at 12; if you have sex at 14 or 21, it doesn't matter.  The choice to have sex and choice not to get HPV are decoupled.  And this is how it should be, since virginity is politically loaded, but that women shouldn't die or lose their fertility to cervical cancer should be completely apolitical.  

To be fair, I don't know if Williams treats all vaccinations with this gravity.  As I noted, perhaps her daughter was also expected to sleep on the decision of getting the meningitis shot, in order to make sure she knows that she could always have the option not to spend time around people who are sneezing or wiping their mouths.  Perhaps the tetanus shot was only administered after her daughter spent a day thinking about her future life around rusty metal and biting insects; after all, we don't want to presume for her that she wouldn't consider simply avoiding the easily identifiable situations where you can get tetanus (rusty objects, hiking, tubing, outdoor barbeques).  

To be clear, the emphasis on the "sex" aspect of the shot was heavy in this story.  It wasn't just the one strange sentence about her future sex life.  

And then I'd had to, with all the calm I could muster, have a lengthy conversation about how the doctor had made a mistake, but it was OK, and everything was fine, and now we were going to talk about sexually transmitted diseases.

My daughters know the facts of life. They know where babies come from, and how people can get AIDS. Often, their knowledge hasn't come from carefully planned birds-and-bees heart-to-hearts but from spontaneous opportunities -- a confusing scene in a movie, a rumor a kid spread on the playground. Life does not always keep children in a bubble until both you and they are at your optimum moment of emotional preparedness. Stuff happens, and being a parent means being there to talk about it. It wasn't the conversation I minded having. It was the harrowing realization of how easily a sloppy mistake, from someone we trusted implicitly, could have meant something far more serious than what we'd just experienced. It was being robbed of choice. Not mine. Hers.

Look, I get that talking about sex with kids is a big deal.  I really do.  I'm 100% sure Williams is responsible and tries to be natural about this stuff.  I think the HPV vaccine is just as good a time as any to have this discussion. 

But this isn't about child-rearing practices.  This is about responsible journalism about important public health issues.  Williams did more than link sex and this shot with her daughter---which again, I can see arguments for it---but she reinforced the link the public mind.  That's another ball of wax.  When discussing the HPV vaccine, we have two frames to work with: "sexual choices" or "routine health care".  The first is a loaded frame that allows right wing narratives about choice to seep in.  If you're working with the "sexual choices" framework, it's easy for people to say that X isn't really health care, because the proper choice is to abstain from sex, and there should be consequences for those who make the "wrong" choice.  In fact, as I pointed out over and over again on Twitter, the fact that the vaccine is characterized as a sexual choice is a major reason it's not mandatory.  People are looking at it with the same nervous eye that they look at putting their kids on birth control with.  The sexual choice frame allows people to think that withholding the shot signals sexual values.

I prefer the "routine health care" frame, which is incidentally the typical frame used in handling the effects of how widespread HPV is.  When you get a Pap smear, for instance, it's not really treated like a matter of sexual choice-making, but more like getting your oil changed, just part of being female.  Once you characterize a form of health care as being about sexual choice-making, you start to have people not get the routine care they should, because they perceive that care as being something that's only necessary if you're a "slut".  Which is, incidentally, a big reason that a lot of women lose their fertility to chlamydia, because they don't get care in a timely fashion due to unwillingness to believe STDs can happen to good girls like themselves. 

And that is, above all other things, my main concern.  Whatever private decision-making looks like in the Williams' household is certainly not my business.  But once you write something and publish it, it's a matter of public concern.  Endorsing the "sexual choices" frame of HPV over the "routine health care" frame is a highly political choice.  You personally may not weigh one sexual choice more heavily than another, but that's simply not true of most of the public, where the belief that women should avoid "sluttiness" is still the strongly-held majority opinion, as is the belief that STDs are indicative of immoral sexual choice-making. 

In addition, in both of Williams' pieces, she didn't do a scrap of reporting on the actual safety and efficacy of the vaccination, just noting that there are "pros and cons", without noting something important, such as the pros way outweighing the cons (with the cons mainly being it's expensive and it hurts to get a shot).  She mentions that she's been "following" its evolution, but doesn't mention that both the FDA and the CDC report that the vaccine is very safe, and that the only verifiable side effects of the vaccine are common to all vaccines---basically a reaction to getting a shot, like when squeamish adolescents faint in the doctor's office.  She didn't note the widespread medical opinion that vaccinations are very safe, and in fact, invoked negative reactions to penicillin, as if the two were comparable, even though in terms of risk, penicillin is much more dangerous than vaccines.   If we care about the health of the next generation, we should be more thoughtful than this.  While most people who get HPV are fine and the infection clears up on its own, there are enough adverse effects that we shouldn't be cavalier about this: 4,000 deaths a year from cervical cancer, 12,000 cases of cervical cancer.  And that's on top of all the various miseries women have to endure so they don't become a statistic, including having to endure cervical biopsies and having cervical scrapings of pre-cancerous cells.  Incidentally, those scrapings sometimes also cause infertility in cases where aggressive treatment to prevent cancer is the only real option. A woman who has to choose between not getting cancer and not having babies in the future is someone whose choice has truly been robbed from her---and all because she didn't get to have the HPV vaccine when she was a kid as part of her routine medical care. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:30 AM • (130) Comments

The idea that getting an STD or not is anyone’s “choice” is ridiculous. Even if you behave “perfectly” in your own life, you don’t get to choose your spouse’s past, you don’t get to choose if they cheat on you, and then there’s rape.

Comment #1: Yawgmoth  on  07/25  at  09:43 AM

I think the major “con” of the HPV vaccine is that Ms. Williams was forced to acknowledge that her daughter is going to grow up some day and be a sexual person.

Comment #2: shinobi42  on  07/25  at  09:49 AM

I thought Williams was a bit overwrought for the wrong reasons.  I’d have been upset about the medical error because they do keep happening when they shouldn’t.  But it did sound like she was more upset about the thoughts of sex.

Interesting that yesterday I read this column in the New York Times that highlights the differences between the US and the Netherlands for teenaged sex:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/opinion/sunday/24schalet.html?ref=opinion

Which country seems to have a more healthy opinion?

Comment #3: James  on  07/25  at  09:51 AM

Back in my 20s, it was a requirement for me to get a Hepatitis B vaccine to go back to school. By contrast, the Hep A vaccine is optional and advised if you plan on traveling to countries with less than adequate santitation.

Now, if I had inadvertently gotten a Hep A vaccine instead of the required Hep B vaccine, I’d be annoyed at my doctor, but I can’t imagine having the the same reaction as Williams to the screw up.

When I read the subtitle of the article that the mix up “changed her life in an instant,” I thought that the daughter was one of the rare unlucky few that had an adverse reaction. Instead it turned out that it “changed her life” by exposing her to the fact that sometimes people make mistakes that ultimately have no long term consequences, and you move on with your life.

Comment #4: Tyro  on  07/25  at  09:52 AM

Right on, Amanda.

Women’s reproductive care IS health care.  HPV should be mandatory.  There’s no rational reason for it not to be.

I seriously don’t get the hand wringing.  If her daughter already knew about AIDS, then why not explain that this is a vaccine against a sexually transmitted cancer?  Because that’s what it is.

That’s what I told my son when he was getting it. That it would protect him from warts and protect anyone he ever loved from getting cancer.

And I’m thrilled that they are now recommending the vaccine for boys as well.

Comment #5: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/25  at  09:54 AM

And though I believe in the logic of getting the HPV vaccine, I have also long felt strongly that any decision involving their future sexual lives should be theirs to make.
If we swap out the word ‘sexual’ in this sentence with ‘health’, then it becomes apparent that this line of thinking makes no sense. All vaccinations change a child’s future health life, usually by preventing them from ever getting a disease. That’s a good thing.

Then again, I ain’t never been a parent so I haven’t ever had to explain my irrational parenting choices before. Getting a meningitis shot for your daughter seems pretty benign, but her getting an HPV shot requires acknowledging that your preteen daughter one day might have sex. If I was in the position, I would hope that I would be mature and reasonable enough to admit that it’s a good idea to preemptively save my daughter from having health woes in the future.

Comment #6: artiofab  on  07/25  at  09:54 AM

I probably wouldn’t go back to a doctor who mixed one shot up with another, regardless, not so much because of the specific screw-up, but because any medical mixup puts me on edge (even one like this which is objectively harmless). But yeah, the HPV vaccine should be mandatory, and it is horrifying to me how callous towards human live the anti-vaccine types are.

Comment #7: HonestB  on  07/25  at  09:58 AM

My irritation at the dramatics was unfair; I should apply the “suck it up” mentality to other people’s dramatics and say, “No big deal. That’s just how they are.”

Goodness, I see you’ve mastered the art of the passive-aggressive non-apology. “It was wrong of me not to make allowances for the fact that you suck.”

I’m getting all of my kids (including my son) the HPV vaccine, and I’d still be fucking pissed if the doctor said “Oopsie, I gave them their first HPV shot instead of DTaP like you asked, my bad!” Because, um, you know, careless medical errors? Perhaps a bit of a problem? And perhaps vaccines have different side effects and timing, so I would like to carefully plan that out instead of being told that a medical decision was taken off my hands because the nurse was busy thinking about leaving for lunch early instead of doing his goddamn job?

Oh, wait, we’re all pro-sex liberals, so let’s just bend our heads meekly when the doctor makes a mistake and takes a choice away from us, because it’s a choice we should have been making anyway. Christ.

Comment #8: mythago  on  07/25  at  09:59 AM

Was she honestly trying to position the nigh-inevitability of getting an incurable disease as part of her daughter’s sexuality?  Really?  I mean, what’s next, throwing a tantrum that schools typically demand vaccination against HepB because one of the common means of transmission between adults in a first-world country is sexual contact?  Outside of a few pretty radical subgroups, catching a communicable disease is an unfortunate risk one runs, not a conscious choice one makes.

Comment #9: preying mantis  on  07/25  at  10:15 AM

I acknowledged that over-dramatic people are better self-advocates than suck it up people. Get over it, mythago.  I admitted my personal revulsion at overdramatics was unfair and colored my initial reaction.  I took blame for this.  I should have sucked it up like I usually do when people irritate me.

There’s middle ground between “sobbing” about how you were “robbed” and meekly putting up with a mistake.  You can calmly accept a mistake happened and calmly figure out the best way to rectify the situation, while being grateful it wasn’t worse. 

Either way, it’s irrelevant.  Personal choice of how to react to mistakes isn’t the issue.  The issue is how we frame sexual health care.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/25  at  10:19 AM

HonestB—agreed. A doctor who “accidentally” gives you the wrong shot is maybe not the greatest doctor in the world and I would totally understand being a little tweaked by that.

But for chrissakes. Pretending like the HPV vaccine is somehow launching children into uncomfortable sexual health discussions before the parent is ready is stupid BS. We teach little kids proper potty/hygene stuff right away because (dramatic sounds) it’s part of sexual health—yes, teaching your little girl “front to back” is in fact acknowledging that the vagina would be better off without feces in it. Kids are taught very early about stuff like bad touch and times/places where it is inappropriate to play with yourself. We have a whole slew of stuff that we have to teach kids that bump up against sexuality, and none of these things (including the HPV vaccine) need trigger “the talk.” The HPV vaccine is a vaccine to prevent a specific type of cancer—that’s all the kid needs to know. Kids don’t give a shit about how other diseases are transmitted, why should HPV be any different?

Comment #11: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/25  at  10:20 AM

I’ll add: I admit that I was wrong to say that someone absolutely shouldn’t freak out.  Freak out if that’s your personal style.  Not my business.

I’ll restate the point of my post: What is my business is spreading toxic narratives about the HPV vaccine.  That is the major problem with Williams’ post, and she refused to acknowledge that, instead saying she was rubber and I’m glue.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/25  at  10:21 AM

I think there’s freaking out and there’s freaking out—especially when the mistake was ultimately harmless, don’t freak out in front of your kid because you’re just going to give them a complex. Making sure your daughter is a sobbing mess after a painful shot? Great way to give your kid a phobia. Calmly ask to speak to the doctor in another room, freak out, and then come back and explain to your daughter that they made a mistake and gave her the wrong shot but she’ll be ok.

Comment #13: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/25  at  10:27 AM

Mythago,

Why didn’t MEW write about about how common medical mistakes are?  And although this particular mistake wasn’t dangerous, the way the system is set up in the United States encourages mistakes?  I mean, I would be pissed too, but only about the mistake. Why did MEW have to turn this into an article separating sexual and all other health and use heavy-handed language that makes it seem she had been sexually violated

Comment #14: kitten parade  on  07/25  at  10:28 AM

let’s just bend our heads meekly when the doctor makes a mistake and takes a choice away from us

Honestly, a lot of these so-called “choices” just create more stress than is necessary, and in the case of public health issues, can be downright dangerous to the rest of society.

Saying you have the “choice” of whether to take the HPV vaccine is a false one—it does not benefit anyone, including the patient. If anything, it causes more stress, as can be seen with Mary Elizabeth Williams.

Comment #15: Tyro  on  07/25  at  10:28 AM

Any parent of a girl who does NOT make sure their daughter gets the HPV series is an irresponsible parent. End of discussion.

Comment #16: Steve LaBonne  on  07/25  at  10:28 AM

The hysteria starts even earlier. Someone in my childbirth class asked if this vaccine was on the “schedule” because she wasn’t sure she wanted her child exposed to it. She then went on a lengthy screed about why babies get Hep vaccines that they “don’t need” (according to her). Naturally someone wanted to know about the connection between vaccines and autism. It was all the pediatrician could do to not roll her eyes and throw up her hands in disgust. And pointing out the scientific studies that show vaccines are safe, going over “herd immunity” and getting into the specifics of the baby’s who died from whooping cough did not wipe the self righteous smirks off their faces.

The tactic I would have used would have been pointing out to Williams and other anti-HPV vaccers is asking them if they want their daughter to die of cervical cancer. It really comes down to that in my mind. Do whatever you’ve got to do to keep your kid alive.

Comment #17: serious bette  on  07/25  at  10:39 AM

Williams isn’t an anti-vaccer. She even supports the HPV vaccine. But anti thinking appears to have influenced her, causing her to believe this decision is a heavy one when it’s not. It should be as automatic as condom education and teeth-brushing.

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/25  at  10:46 AM

The entire “bad choices” meme is right wing, and it usually involves the rationalization of exigencies that really aren’t a choice. Is it bad choices to ‘decide’ to live where there’s oil fracking and your water has glycol in it?

The transition from childhood to adolescence is difficult - maybe more for the parents than the child. Nobody likes to think of their 11 year old as someday being having sex, though clearly that has to happen at some point.

Diagnosis: that ‘awkward age’ began a bit early and Williams feels like someone’s innocence was lost a year or two early. That someone is probably her, not her daughter.

Comment #19: KingElvis  on  07/25  at  10:48 AM

And perhaps vaccines have different side effects and timing, so I would like to carefully plan that out instead of being told that a medical decision was taken off my hands because the nurse was busy thinking about leaving for lunch early instead of doing his goddamn job?

And perhaps you’d like to actually read the article where Amanda talks about both the side effects and what a stupid strawman that whole “medical decision” argument is in regards to vaccinating children against a common cancer rather than try and get “gotcha” points.

Oh, wait, we’re all pro-sex liberals,

Obviously “WE” are not or you’d leave your strawmen at home.

so let’s just bend our heads meekly when the doctor makes a mistake and takes a choice away from us, because it’s a choice we should have been making anyway. Christ.

Comment #8: mythago

The choice to reduce the chance of cancer by 1 person?  Oh, woe!  How fraught and dangerous is this damned profession!
Can you at least try and come up with an argument that wasn’t already debunked?

I’m not sure why being an adult and saying, “Oh, you gave me a Swine Flu vaccine rather than the tetanus shot?  Ok, can I get the tetanus shot now?” is such a big deal.
Unless you’re terrified of either sex or medicine.

Comment #20: cynickal  on  07/25  at  10:51 AM

Excellent piece Amanda.

Comment #21: carswell  on  07/25  at  10:53 AM

It’s funny how “cure for cancer” is the paradigmatic Good Thing(tm) in our cultural discourse: the ultimate goal of medicine, a byword for a desirable outcome of progress, a stand-in for a maximally worthwhile occupation. And yet here we have something that basically amounts to a cure for cancer - at least for one cancer - and so many people reject it, for the rather spurious reason that it can be juxtaposed with women’s sexuality.

It’s like nothing in the world is so good, so pure, so noble, that it can’t be tarnished and made evil by vaginas. Crazy.

Comment #22: MarinaS  on  07/25  at  10:54 AM

I’m not sure why being an adult and saying, “Oh, you gave me a Swine Flu vaccine rather than the tetanus shot?  Ok, can I get the tetanus shot now?” is such a big deal.
Unless you’re terrified of either sex or medicine.

Well to be fair getting multiple vaccinations in one day can be a punch to the immune system so there is value in stretching them out. Getting the shot you went for might mean having to endure the hassle of a second trip. And medical mistakes like that can be scary because the wrong pull could be something you’ve got an established intolerance for. Which makes it all the sadder that Williams went the “with one little prick my poor baby has lost her innocence!” route. Priorities people.

On another note, convincing my 40+ uncle to get this for his preteen daughter was a treat.

Comment #23: scrumby  on  07/25  at  11:03 AM

I think your criticisms of William’s article are good. I understand being upset that a mistake was made. That is serious and might lead me to change doctors, but I wouldn’t be upset that my daughter received the HPV vaccine. I doubt very much that William’s had in depth talks with her daughters about how the other diseases they received vaccines for are contracted.

Comment #24: Livi  on  07/25  at  11:08 AM

Yeah, Williams’ piece seems pretty irresponsible to me. Why add to all the scare-mongering and HPV!Sex! associations that religious fundamentalists have dredged up for years. Also, I fail to see why the Hep A vaccine should be any different than HPV—Hep A is also classed as an STI. But why isn’t there a freakout over that vaccine? Mainly because it came into existence before fundies totally framed the debate on such vaccines.
The only legitimate reason I can see people deciding not to get their kids vaccinated are: a) kids have some sort of immune disorder that makes it dangerous/ineffective b) cervical cancer is pretty rare in this country, and pap smears can detect the vast majority cases before they become cancerous. So it’s a shot with real benefits, but relatively minor ones (i.e. mainly reduced risk of colposcopy) down the road. In the developing world, though, this shot could save hundreds of thousands of lives.

Comment #25: t-ster  on  07/25  at  11:39 AM

Even adults get weird about getting the HPV vaccine for themselves. Like, I started the series of shots at age 25. I was already in a long-term monogamous relationship, but I figured you know, anything can happen, and it’s covered by my student health fee, so I’ll get it.

My boyfriend got super weird for an evening when I told him, even though he’s a smart, scientifically literate, progressive and usually feminist guy. He seemed to worry that it meant I was planning to leave him or cheat on him. After all, if I really wasn’t planning on having sex with anyone else, why would I need the vaccine? (He didn’t spell that out, but definitely acted odd and uncomfortable, with that as the subtext.)

I finally told him, look. This is a just-in-case thing. At this point in time, I don’t see myself needing the protection. But life can be unpredictable. Something I can’t foresee could happen—you could leave me, you could die, and I’d start dating again, and might get exposed to HPV. I’d rather have the protection and not need it, than need it and not have it. He understood then, and got over his weirdness.

Parents get weird the same way. If my kid’s not having sex, why does she need the vaccine? Doesn’t a vaccine like that mean she’s planning to have sex, and I’m planning to encourage it? And the answer is the same—no, it’s a just-in-case thing. She might never be exposed to HPV, just like she might never be exposed to the mumps. But life is unpredictable. Since the vaccine risks are low, wouldn’t you rather she have the protection and not need it, than need it and not have it? Like any other vaccine?

Comment #26: snowmentality  on  07/25  at  11:42 AM

When I read the subtitle of the article that the mix up “changed her life in an instant,” I thought that the daughter was one of the rare unlucky few that had an adverse reaction.

This.

Or ... “we found the nurse didn’t change the needle and your daughter needs an HIV test.”

Or ... “we found evidence your daughter was sexually abused…”

I guess anything can be described as “changing a life” but they’re pretty dramatic words to describe this type of mistake.

Comment #27: James  on  07/25  at  11:42 AM

And that’s setting aside the logic of giving an 11-year-old the right to decide for her 20-year-old self whether or not to invite the possibility genital warts, cervical scrapings, infertility and even cancer into her life.

This.  Even the most mature eleven year old in the world shouldn’t have a say when it comes to refusing vaccines. 

Sometimes I’m amazed at how one’s life can be held hostage by the bad decisions of an immature idiot.  It’s especially galling when that immature idiot is one’s self.

Comment #28: prufrock  on  07/25  at  11:43 AM

Meh.  You can freak out all you want, but you shouldn’t be surprised if some people think you sound like a raving lunatic.  Williams’s reaction was at the very least, theatrical.

I mean, good grief, what drama. Medical mistakes suck, and were it me, I’d consider switching pediatricians.  But it’s not like they hacked off her daughter’s leg when all they were supposed to do was remove a mole. The worse that could come out of this was that Mom would have to schedule another doctor visit. Which, allowing for work and other conflicts, is a pain in the ass.

I don’t even see why it merited much discussion. Tell the kid, “You got the wrong shot, but in this case, it’s okay, because the shot will protect you from cancer.” End of story.  More on.

“Loss of innocence?” Oh, brother.

Comment #29: adobedragon  on  07/25  at  11:46 AM

HPV is now recommended for boys, because you don’t go after only half of the population spreading a disease.

My sons will be getting their shots shortly. (one is only 13, the 15-year old requested it himself)

Doesn’t this woman know that HepB is a largely sexually transmitted disease, too?  That’s why I didn’t get it for my sons when they were first born (especially considering that, when I had my vaccination two years before as a health care worker, it was only believed to protect for 5 years).  They were vaccinated for that at age 5.

As for bad reactions, yes they happen - and they are only extremely rarely as nasty as the disease.  I’m nursing one right now. But lets just say I’ll take an arm swollen to nearly twice its size and flu-like symptoms for several days over the Pertussis hell my academic advisor and his wife suffered through for six months.

Comment #30: Ms Kate  on  07/25  at  11:48 AM

The whole “loss of innocence” is utter blather.  Not giving kids the means to protect themselves and navigate the world safely doesn’t make them pure or innocent.  It puts them at very high risk of their own naivete and predators.

Comment #31: Ms Kate  on  07/25  at  11:54 AM

Oh wow, it is so ridiculous to worry about choice with HPV vaccine but no others.  Imagine if I had a child and said I wouldn’t vaccinate her against tetanus because I want her to make that choice for herself.  It’s just utterly ridiculous.  Sure, she could always make sure to wear shoes outside and be careful that she doesn’t step on a nail and then she would never need that tetanus shot, or she could just be a careless slut and walk around barefoot and get the shot just in case.

I’m 26 now and the HPV vaccine came out when I was in college.  I got HPV when I was 17 and it was scary as Hell.  I was unlucky enough to get one of the strains that can cause cancer.  However, I was lucky enough to have a great doctor and a responsible mother that made me get a physical (which included a pap smear) every single year like clockwork.  I also had great medical coverage throughout college so I could the check-ups I needed every 6 months, including colposcopies and once even a cervical biopsy.  Since it was caught so early, I had a great chance of avoiding cancer as long as the doctors kept an eye on it.  After 5 years, the chances of it becoming cancerous dropped to less than 10%.  After about 7 years I was actually cured of the disease, which I didn’t even realize was possible.

So I decided to get the HPV vaccine.  My insurance wouldn’t pay for it, but since I had had a cancer scare already I knew it was important and I paid for it out of pocket.  I got the first Gardisil shot and a tetanus booster on the same office visit.  The nurse made a big deal about warning me that the Gardisil shot can cause muscle soreness.  But I ended up with far more pain in the arm that got the tetanus shot.  It was still worth it and better than getting tetanus, but I had a very sore spot for about 3 days.  The Gardisil arm was fine.  But I think the stern warning I got from the nurse wasn’t really about just the possibility of soreness.

If I have daughters (and sons if they approve it for boys by then), they will be getting the shot early, along with all the other shots that they get.  I don’t want them getting tetanus or HPV.

Comment #32: bananacat  on  07/25  at  12:03 PM

Snow, everything you said, and also, unless he was a virgin when he met you, your boyfriend quite likely has already had it. It’s really common! It’s like the common cold, if the common cold had a chance of giving you cancer.

People mean well, but you can’t just shrug off being socialized to think of STIs as a sign of immorality.  Sonwe have to make a conscious choice not to reinforce that paradigm.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/25  at  12:06 PM

Right on the nose, Amanda.  I’d like to add that the fact that the vaccine prevents most genital warts as well, and that this is a major and important benefit.  Genital warts is something that condoms don’t provide perfect protection against (it can infect areas not covered by the condom) and it is also one of the most inconvenient and embarassing STDs one can get, according to the anecdata I’ve personally collected by working in the scheduling department for a sexual healthcare provider. 

When someone calls me and it is like pulling teeth to get them to tell me what service they want to schedule because they are JUST. SO. EMBARASSED. about it, my first guess is always that it is a genital wart treatment.  People don’t think of genital warts as something to be afraid of, then when they get it they are so mortified they just want to crawl under a rock.  Then they have to schedule between one and a dozen appointments for it, depending on the severity.

If a simple series of 3 shots can save one from having to go through this, I think any man, woman or youth you should be happy to get the shots.

Comment #34: GumbyAnne  on  07/25  at  12:08 PM

t-ster @25: Getting regular check-ups is NOT an adequate substitute for a vaccination.  Check-ups basically make sure the disease isn’t getting out of hand after you get it, but if it does start to progress, the expense of fixing it can get really high.  If they do have to scrape your cervix, those cells don’t grow back.  If you don’t get better, they may have to keep scraping and that weakens your uterine floor and renders you infertile. Plus, that is truly painful, especially compared to the pain of a shot in the arm.

Plus, not everyone has health insurance and so keeping up with those expenses would be out of their reach.  If you have an insured and healthy child, there is no real excuse for not vaccinating them.  Even if they are lucky enough not to develop complications from HPV—-and let’s be clear, most people don’t—-that may not be true of their partners, their partners’ partners, their partners’ partners’ partners, etc.  Not everyone can casually monitor it, even in industrialized nations.  Also, diseases can be spread between people living in industrialized nations and developing nations.

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/25  at  12:20 PM

To this day I don’t know if I received the last HPV vaccine shot, because when I went to get it the incompetent nurse came into the office with two syringes. One was tetanus which I had received six months before and which my doctor had only asked her to look up to verify when I got it. She assured me that she knew which was which and injected me with one, but neither were labeled, and she already demonstrated that she didn’t know what the fuck she was doing.

In this case I’m firmly on MEW’s side, because incompetent medical staff deserve to die in a fire and it’s fucking bullshit to dismiss other people’s medical concerns.

Comment #36: keshmeshi  on  07/25  at  12:22 PM

Well to be fair getting multiple vaccinations in one day can be a punch to the immune system so there is value in stretching them out.

Citation?  The immune system is constantly bombarded by threats, and two or three more are mostly just drops in the bucket.  There may be specific cases where two vaccines are not recommended together, but as a general rule there’s no reason to assume that a few shots will overwhelm the immune system.

Comment #37: bananacat  on  07/25  at  12:25 PM

“The only legitimate reason I can see people deciding not to get their kids vaccinated are: a) kids have some sort of immune disorder that makes it dangerous/ineffective b) cervical cancer is pretty rare in this country, and pap smears can detect the vast majority cases before they become cancerous. So it’s a shot with real benefits, but relatively minor ones (i.e. mainly reduced risk of colposcopy) down the road. In the developing world, though, this shot could save hundreds of thousands of lives.”

This assumes that women have access to annual Paps, which women without insurance often don’t, and frankly underplays the hassle of getting a positive HPV test and an abnormal Pap result.  A good friend of mine experienced that—the result: three years of twice-yearly exams and annual colposcopies, to see if the infection and abnormality would clear up on its own, followed by surgery when it didn’t.  As I understand it, she had the least invasive surgery (laser removal) so minimal side effects but still expensive and still surgery. 

Not to mention the value of herd immunity—right now HPV is incredibly prevalent (my doctor told me that 70-80 percent of sexually active women will be infected at some point in their lives, although the infection often clears itself up) and a widely administered vaccine is probably the only way to control it.

Comment #38: Kit-Kat  on  07/25  at  12:28 PM

As someone who has had a cervical biopsy, I can tell you all that it is painful, like the worst cramps you’ve had time a million.  Go for the shot instead.

Comment #39: bananacat  on  07/25  at  12:29 PM

Ms Kate, you’ve inspired a poster design with your comment.

Picture two Victorian-era girls, pre-teen, watching the sunset, the caption:

“Remember how simpler things were when we didn’t know about fucking?”

Comment #40: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/25  at  12:37 PM

Frankly, any parent who is upset that her daughter has additional protection against cancer needs to have her head examined.  Would she have been even half as upset if, instead, her daughter had accidentally received protection against malaria or yellow fever?  I’m guessing no, she’d be annoyed at the doctors but it wouldn’t have made a good essay because her daughter wouldn’t have lost her innocence or whatever.

Comment #41: Kit-Kat  on  07/25  at  12:41 PM

I don’t get the hysteria, at least not the part related to the medical mistake.  It’s not like the HPV vaccine is equivalent to the Pill, and the kid already knew about STDs…the article does seem like a rabble-rouser.

Comment #42: ganews_  on  07/25  at  12:49 PM

Ridiculous culture war over whether a life saving medication should ever be used to extend the misbegotten life of a dirty slut aside, we all expect way too much from our doctors and nurses. They are human beings, not gods. It’s possible for them to be very smart, very compassionate and very good at what they do, and still fuck up sometimes. Have you never, ever made a mistake in your job?

Life is fragile and that’s scary but let’s not scream at the people who are doing their very best to help alleviate suffering.

(Not saying doctors can’t be assholes, lots of them are, but this wasn’t an asshole move, it was an honest mistake)

Comment #43: typist  on  07/25  at  12:51 PM

kesh, really?  Die in a fire?  Damn.

I just don’t feel entitled to live in a world where people never screw up.  That sounds *exhausting*.  I’m human; I get mad when stuff goes wrong.  But man, “no harm no foul” just makes day to day living so much easier.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/25  at  12:51 PM

There may be specific cases where two vaccines are not recommended together, but as a general rule there’s no reason to assume that a few shots will overwhelm the immune system.

They combine the ‘seasonal flu’ vaccine with the ‘avian flu’  vaccine these days, but I wouldn’t take two different vaccines on the same day unless they are specifically formulated like the flu shots.

I don’t think it could trigger immunological collapse at worse.

My reasoning is that I used to get sick sometimes from different vaccines on an inconsistent basis, so that if I had a shot of A, which could get me sick, along with B, the same, I could see where there could be a problem.

If, OTOH, you don’t have a record of reactions to shots, then it probably wouldn’t be very risky.

The best practice, IMHO,  would be to ask the patient about their experience with vaccines, and proceed only if the patient was aware that the combination might make them feel like a POS for 2 to 3 days instead of the next-day rundown feeling I used to experience.

What I can imagine, is if a doctor didn’t discuss the matter with me and I’d end up having to miss work for a few days, all because he couldn’t spare a few moments to make sure I realized the possible consequences of getting 2 or more vaccines in a single day.

Comment #45: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/25  at  12:56 PM

The mother was concerned that the shot would deny her daughter the right to make her own sexual decisions.  I don’t understand how that would work.  I wonder if she would allow her daughter to decide whether or not to get the HPV vaccine or if she would insist that she not get it because it might allow her daughter to make sexual decisions of her own without worrying about getting cancer later on in life. 

I realize that people are anti-vaccine for all kinds of reasons, but the opposition to the HPV vaccine seems to come almost exclusively from religious conservatives.  The want to prevent the elimination of disease to punish women who have sex.  The children of the religious right probably have less access to sex education also.  They are less likely to use condoms as a result, and therefore more likely to catch STDs. 

If there were vaccines for all STDs, the probability of eliminating them would be lowered by parents who simply wouldn’t allow their children to take them out of fear that being protected would make them rush out and start having sex.  They already prohibit their daughters from getting birth control, or even information about it.  They are so frightened of women enjoying sex that they cut funding to Planned Parenthood and fight against sex education in schools.  All because of a book written by herdsmen living in a desert thousands of years ago.

Comment #46: G Porgey  on  07/25  at  01:14 PM

If we want all medical staff at every level to be multiple PhD-holding supersgeniuses with personal assistants who follow them around constantly to make sure they never make a forgetful error, I think we’d better be prepared to pay A LOT higher healthcare costs (as if they are not high enough).  Personally, I think it’s best to just be understanding of the fact that regular humans with flaws give us our vaccinations.

Comment #47: GumbyAnne  on  07/25  at  01:16 PM

So when her daughter starts having unprotected sex and refuses to take birth control or visit the OB/GYN, I’m sure MEW will be cool with that, because unlike getting vaccinated for meningitis or pertussis, her daughter is totally in control of her sexual health. 

I just don’t get this.  Parents make choices about their minor children’s health all the time—they don’t consult children about whether or not they will get vaccinated, take antibiotics, or even take their vitamins.  That’s part of what they are supposed to do, because children are not able to intelligently make these decisions for themselves. 

So the sexual choice that MEW wants to preserve for her daughter is the choice to be at greater risk for HPV and cervical cancer, should she ever choose to be sexually active.  Huh what?  How is it infringing on her daughter’s ability to control her sexuality?  Her daughter can still decide never to have sex at all, whether or not she’s been vaccinated against one particular STD.  I assume she would still try to teach her daughter how to make intelligent decisions about sexual activity and to know the possible risks, of which HPV is only one.  Why is this vaccine so freaking threatening?  Is it really possible that any parent really thinks that being vaccinated against one single STD will turn their daughter into a slut?  Or that any parent would rather that their daughter got cancer?

Comment #48: Kit-Kat  on  07/25  at  01:27 PM

If we want all medical staff at every level to be multiple PhD-holding supersgeniuses with personal assistants who follow them around constantly to make sure they never make a forgetful error, I think we’d better be prepared to pay A LOT higher healthcare costs (as if they are not high enough).  Personally, I think it’s best to just be understanding of the fact that regular humans with flaws give us our vaccinations.

Labels and reading skills.  Shouldn’t require multiple PhD’s.

Comment #49: James  on  07/25  at  01:28 PM

Of course I was joking.  Even supergeniuses, when reading huge numbers of labels for multiple purposes and multiple patients every single day over long periods of time, will eventually make a simple label-reading error.

Comment #50: GumbyAnne  on  07/25  at  01:36 PM

So, you’ve really never made a mistake, James?  Please share your secrets.

Comment #51: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/25  at  01:46 PM

whoa! while I really don’t understand the hysteria from parents concerned with OMGZ it’s the “sex shot,” I’m more than a little surprised at how many of you are all “make it MANDATORY!!!!” the safety and efficacy of Gardisil and Cevarix still need to be proven to me and I don’t know that the benefits outweigh the risks. the vaccines supposedly prevent four strains of HPV, two of which are thought to cause 70% of cervical cancers. there is no proof for how long the vaccine is effective, nor for what the long-term risks might be. and contrary to what some people on the thread have said - you should still be getting your annual exams and PAP smears because even if the vaccine is effective, there’s still 30% of cervical cancers that aren’t covered by it. and while the controversy surrounding the risk profile has its own bit of an unhinged quality, I can’t completely discount it yet. (see Vioxx and Chantix)

suffice to say - from my knowledge of the pharmaceutical industry, I don’t want to take any drug that hasn’t been on the market for at least 20-30 years with no skeletons in the closet. I understand that all drugs have risks, but I want to be able to trust the risk-benefit ratio they show me.

Comment #52: shade  on  07/25  at  01:54 PM

Um, shade, who said that getting the vaccine meant that you could skip your annual exams?  All I read was posters commenting that not all women, in fact, get annual exams, many for financial/health insurance reasons.

Comment #53: Kit-Kat  on  07/25  at  02:00 PM

1. HPV vaccine should be mandatory.  I have no doubts about it.
2. That said, the idea of a syringe containing substance B when it was supposed to contain substance A, at the time it was injected into someone’s body is extremely freakout-worthy.

Comment #54: Theresa  on  07/25  at  02:05 PM

I don’t think anyone advocates not getting a pap if you can get one, or that the HPV vaccine makes a pap smear obsolete.  I think someone upthread was mentioning that none of us really knows for sure if ourselves or our children will go through lean times without insurance, and that if their economic circumstances don’t allow them to get the care they should get, they will be better off having had the vaccine when they could get it.

Comment #55: GumbyAnne  on  07/25  at  02:17 PM

I worry about the people that feel the need to explain to an 11 year old that the HPV vaccine is for *gasp* an STD!!1!.  What’s wrong with telling them that it’s for a very common viral infection that very rarely leads to cancer?  It’s a vaccine, it works against a virus, you don’t want the virus.  No sex at all.

Comment #56: NBarnes  on  07/25  at  02:28 PM

I’m not sure why being an adult and saying, “Oh, you gave me a Swine Flu vaccine rather than the tetanus shot?  Ok, can I get the tetanus shot now?” is such a big deal.
Unless you’re terrified of either sex or medicine.

Well for a start, some people are allergic to/have bad reaction to, specific vaccines and thus need to avoid them. My mother, for instance, an OAP who is offered a flu jab, would be in trouble if the nurse accidentally gave her a tetanus injection instead, because she reacts badly to tetanus vaccination and has been warned to avoid routine boosters. Medical mistakes are always serious, because they always have potentially serious consequences. Normally we dodge the bullet and nothing happens, but the bullet shouldn’t have been there in the first place. Being angry at an avoidable error with potentially serious consequences is not childish.

That said, Williams is clearly conflating various issues in “dirty bad sex” panic. There’s medical mistakes - something to be taken seriously, at the very least to expect to be informed (as she was) and it would not be unreasonable to ask what precautions were being taken to prevent a repeat. There’s informed consent, which was indeed violated, albeit in error rather than deliberately. And there’s “Oh no! HPV vaccine is about dirty bad sex!” And you can tell that Williams is a hypocrite about that, because there is no section in the article about how her daughter hasn’t had the rubella vaccine yet, because that’s a decision for when she decides she wants a baby.

Comment #57: Nineveh  on  07/25  at  02:50 PM

I worry about people who have explained so little about sex to an 11 year old girl (50/50 chance she wears a bra and has her period) that she can’t talk about an STD.  A girl who is physically capable of bearing children needs to know about sex, if only to know what is not an appropriate advance! 

Again, innocence is death.

Comment #58: Ms Kate  on  07/25  at  02:51 PM

I look at it this way.  I have a daughter who is almost eleven, and when she grows up, she will probably makes some choices that are not the choices I’d prefer she make.  Still, I’d prefer she not suffer and die as a result of those choices.  She’ll be getting the shot.

Comment #59: J. Loslo  on  07/25  at  03:03 PM

Both of my sons have had the full course of shots. Since my insurance covered it, I figured there should be two less people in the world spreading a virus that made it problematic for me to produce said people in the first place.  Multiple procedures meant I am still among the living, but it was touch and go there for a bit.  In light of what I went through, my boys were even more of a blessing than I can begin to explain. How, then, could I in good conscience send them into the world to get/spread that virus if there was a way to prevent it?

I’m not sure why anyone would think getting the shot would have any impact on sexual activity. It prevents a virus from taking hold; that’s all.

Comment #60: Reba  on  07/25  at  03:22 PM

Medical errors are bad, but in the scheme of things, getting extra an vaccination which provides a nice benefit seems pretty innocuous. My friend’s dad, who is an anesthesiologist, almost died when the annual flu shot they gave him turned out to be an insulin shot which made his blood sugar plummet. He almost went into a coma and had some long-lasting damage—luckily, because he knew the nurse who administered the shot, they could track down the mistake before he went totally unconscious. Weirdly, because he was a doctor, he didn’t blame the nurse who administered the shot, taking the point of view that “accidents happen.” I guess i see these types of honest mistakes as systemic problems (i.e. that office needs to make changes in their process and make it harder for people to make those mistakes), rather than ones that require pointing a finger at a specific person.

Comment #61: t-ster  on  07/25  at  03:54 PM

t-ster, it may not have been the nurse’s fault if there were labeling errors or pharmacy errors.

Comment #62: Ms Kate  on  07/25  at  04:00 PM

The “debate” about whether to provide this vaccine to children really steams me.  It’s in such bad faith.

You are not making any sexual “choices” for your children.  They will grow up some day and either have sex or not.  Most likely they will have sex at some point in their lives.  Most people do.  Whether or not you order a vaccine for them will not force them to have sex.  Nor, believe it or not, will your desire, as a parent, to see your children as forever innocent and as sex-free as a puppy, likely play any role into their decisions to have or to not have sex during their lifetimes.

Since the overwhelming majority of people have sex at some point or another, helping them to do so safely by providing this vaccine is absolutely common sense.

What other cancer can you vaccinate against?  I.e., you could vaccinate your kid against cancer, but you’d rather not?  Great parenting.

Comment #63: blondie  on  07/25  at  04:24 PM

serious bette:

She then went on a lengthy screed about why babies get Hep vaccines that they “don’t need” (according to her).

Ms Kate:

Doesn’t this woman know that HepB is a largely sexually transmitted disease, too?  That’s why I didn’t get it for my sons when they were first born (especially considering that, when I had my vaccination two years before as a health care worker, it was only believed to protect for 5 years).  They were vaccinated for that at age 5.

Hep B is an interesting one because when I was a kid that was considered the “sex vaccine” and accordingly we got it at twelve years of age. I always wondered if they placed it into the infant vaccines because to disassociate it from this label.

The official party line from the CDC however appears to be the assumption that everyone is diseased and therefore infants need to be protected from their mothers. So it’s the same deal with the STD eye drops. Right? Wrong? It can certainly be argued both ways.

Health Canada, however, uses studies that show the vaccine is actually more effective when given between the ages of 5-15 vs. under two years of age. Additionally, we don’t know if protection from infancy will last as long because they haven’t been any long term studies that have completed. Even if it does, the vaccine has been rated effective to at most 20 years.

I don’t know about you but looking back to my sexual history. Twenty years of age is not when I want a vaccine for a primarily sexually transmitted disease to be ‘wearing off’.

It’s necessary, but there is quite a bit of wiggle room on when you should.

GumbyAnne:

Of course I was joking.  Even supergeniuses, when reading huge numbers of labels for multiple purposes and multiple patients every single day over long periods of time, will eventually make a simple label-reading error.

To be fair, there probably is a very easy way to cut down on hospital mistakes at least. Stop with the 12 hour shifts. I mean, I can’t imagine them doing that because they would have to increase their staff by about 50%; but why is it, where mistakes are the most critical, we expect people to work some of the longest hours?

When my father started at his first hospital they would have the new recruits and the part-timers work alternating day and night shifts. Add a good dose of sleep deprivation to those 12 hours. Personally, I’m amazed when anyone makes it out of a hospital alive.

Comment #64: hypatia  on  07/25  at  04:34 PM

So, you’ve really never made a mistake, James?  Please share your secrets.

I try to learn from them and don’t make the same mistake twice.  Something like not labeling a vaccine strikes me as being one of those mistakes that is easily resolved with a checklist; there has been a fair bit of writing about this for the medical profession.  The resistance of some in the medical profession to checklists and the like confuses me.

Comment #65: James  on  07/25  at  04:49 PM

Amanda’s frames of routine health care v sexual choice is exactly right. I was getting Pap smears for years before I made the connection that I was being tested for an std. The Pap was just a routine part of my annual exam.

Comment #66: Isabella  on  07/25  at  04:52 PM

@J.Loslo #59,

I think that’s a great attitude.  But it bears repeating that HPV has little to do with whether one makes desirable sexual choices—other than the choice to have sex with someone at some point in her life, which presumably is a given to which no sane parent would have an objection.  Even the most socially conservative parents expect their Spotless Christian Virgin Daughters to have sex eventually with their husbands.  And in that scenario, even if the daughter has played by all the rules and remained untouched until the wedding night, who is to guarantee that her husband can’t pass HPV along to her?  As Amanda points out, HPV is extremely common.

Comment #67: Laurie  on  07/25  at  04:59 PM

I think the major “con” of the HPV vaccine is that Ms. Williams was forced to acknowledge that her daughter is going to grow up some day and be a sexual person.

+1

Comment #68: Dilan Esper  on  07/25  at  05:34 PM

Excellent post. I was one of the statistics who endured both the scraping and biopsy. I came up with a pre-pre stage of cancer (I can’t remember what the heck they call it.) and had the cells removed with Nitrogen. Not fun! **I went into mild shock. I was very lucky that I had insurance AND that Planned Parenthood were the ones to detect it first.  I have no idea who or when I picked this up. I have no way of warning past partners.  I’m sick of all the hysterics about sex, esp women having it.
P.S. I hate anti vacc parents, Jenny McCarthy and Oprah for giving her a platform.
**Of course being a dirty, disgusting slut, this was my punishment.

Comment #69: pitbullgirl65  on  07/25  at  05:37 PM

Wow. I can’t tell you how much I agree with your analysis Amanda. I’m the mother of two teenage girls. You are one hundred percent right about the HPV vaccine and I don’t even really understand the OP’s point about the difference between HPV and other vaccines. It isn’t about your daughter’s sexuality at all. Once you grasp that your daughter is going to have sex at some point protecting her, and teachign her to protect herself, is the right way to go. A better analogy would be to the Hepatitis vaccine.  (Some) parents were outraged when that started to be given to kids because it was associated with drug users and other “dirty” people. But the fact of the matter is that you can’t guarantee that your child isn’t going to be in an accident and get a blood transfusion, get stuck with a dirty needle, or get food or drink from someone with hepatitis.  A preventative shot is just that: a preventative shot.

I agree with the OP that its very unnerving when your child is given a shot that you haven’t discussed/approved because there can be issues of timing, or of allergies, or whatever.  If your child has asthma, for example, you will be offered anti flu shots on a priority basis.  If your child doesn’t she may be put on a delayed schedule.  No shot should be given to any child without a full discussion with the parents of all the pros and cons.

But that being the case what the fuck is up with discussing the shot with the 11 year old as though she should be permitted to put herself at greater risk for serious disease out of shyness, or fear, or misapprehension of the cost/benefit?  That was totally irresponsible parenting and I hope the writer knows it.  It placed a ridiculous burden of fear and shame on the daughter and for nothing!  As you say, its a vaccine like any other. The fact that it comes in three parts doesn’t mean that you can or should encourage a child to refuse the second two parts anymore than you would stop an antibiotic treatment midway through.

aimai

Comment #70: aimai  on  07/25  at  05:38 PM

When I was 11 I was going to a Catholic grade school and it was 1989. Damned if we didn’t have full and comprehensive information about AIDS.

Comment #71: typist  on  07/25  at  06:10 PM

“Hi, I’m a doctor and this very safe [insert vaccine name] I’m about to give you will help protect you and those you meet from a very dangerous disease.  It is scientifically demonstrated to be almost risk free, but to check, are you allergic to eggs?”

If the issue goes any further than that, whether [vaccine] is meningitis, hepititis, HPV or freaking chicken pox, and whether the patient is 0.5, 11, or 73… you’re doing it wrong.

Comment #72: Caelan Aegana  on  07/25  at  06:40 PM

I was never suggesting that people shouldn’t get the shot—even if you luck out and never get precancerous lesions, you obviously could be spreading them to others. And I wasn’t suggesting that colposcopy isn’t super painful or anything. I’m just saying that the vaccine is probably not going to make a huge dent in the cervical cancer rate, since we already have a pretty low rate.Personally, I went out and got the three rounds of shots practically the day they were available and think anyone with a lick of sense should too. I was just saying that there are only two reasons someone should even be able to opt out of this vaccine, and in this case one is that you can make the case that other preventative care (pap smears, etc.) do a decent job of addressing the worst consequences of HPV, unlike, say, the measles, Hep B, or meningitis vaccines—where there really aren’t many effective treatments that can prevent you from progressing oncce you contract the infections. That’s not to say the benefits of HPV vaccines don’t hugely outweight the public costs.

Comment #73: t-ster  on  07/25  at  06:45 PM

I can see why MEW was upset to be called out on her freaking out, and I can even sort of agree that criticizing her emotional handling of the situation was maybe rude (although I would argue that since she made her emotional handling of the situation the focus of a published article, she volunteered it as a subject of public discussion—if she was, say, a friend of Amanda’s who had this happen and told her about it, and then Amanda wrote and published an article saying she was overdramatic, then definitely, Amanda would be way out of line).

However, thinking that MEW was overdramatic was exactly my reaction to the article, too.  I can see being shaken by the medical mistake angle—even though a medical mistake where the wrong routine vaccination or treatment is given is usually a consequence-free mistake, you would prefer it if your medical providers didn’t make mistakes, obviously.  But feeling like the HPV shot somehow violates your/your daughter’s innocence is just silly.  If the mistake was, “She was supposed to get the meningitis vaccine and the doctor gave her a tetanus booster instead,” either the story would be, “Luckily, the only consequence of this mistake was that we had to make an extra trip to the ped’s office to get the right shot, but it’s a reminder that we should all be alert for medical errors,” or (much more likely) it wouldn’t be a story at all.

Comment #74: A.  on  07/25  at  07:03 PM

Citation?  The immune system is constantly bombarded by threats, and two or three more are mostly just drops in the bucket.  There may be specific cases where two vaccines are not recommended together, but as a general rule there’s no reason to assume that a few shots will overwhelm the immune system.

Oh noes, the immune system might have to deal with more than one threat at a time? Horrifying! Why, if I went to the doctor’s office…

...on the public bus I regularly take, entering through the door by the emergency room, followed by a commute through the hospital, pushing public elevator buttons, pausing to adjust my ponytail, handling cash to get a Coke out of the vending machine, sitting next to the persistently coughing man in the waiting room…

...and they had the nerve to give me two whole vaccines at once, I’m not sure I would survive!

Comment #75: Bagelsan  on  07/25  at  07:17 PM

Bagelsan, unlike the environment you describe and the substances present therein, vaccines are in fact suppose to provoke and stimulate the immune system, and, as I noted, there are vaccines that are multi-valent, like the flu shot I got a while back.

and they had the nerve to give me two whole vaccines at once, I’m not sure I would survive!

As I noted above, the chances of precipitating a severe response are low, but I remind you there are folks such as myself who do get sick the day after getting a shot, if you’ve never experienced it, lucky you.


Comment #76: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/25  at  08:38 PM

This needs to be said: Pap smears are secondary prevention, because they catch the disease after it’s started but before it’s done much harm - much like mammograms.  Vaccines are primary prevention because they prevent the disease at all.

Colposcopies, and the procedures to rid the cervix of HPV-related changes are not benign.  One of the quiet pushes from the public health side is not only to reduce cancer in women, but also secondarily to try to prevent premature birth - because once you start cutting into the cervix, it doesn’t hold a full-term baby so well.  I’d really like to see that front-and-center when we talk to teenage girls about HPV, but I’d really, really like to see that front and center when we talk to the right wing about HPV, especially the fetus-lover arm of the right wing.  Essentially, this is a drug that prevents preterm birth - and if you know much about obstetrics, preventing pre-term birth is practically a holy grail.  But no one ever puts it that way outside the public health world.

This, by the way, is why the 2009 guidelines on Pap smears say NO MORE Paps on women under the age of 21: HPV is too common in that group, those women tend to clear it spectacularly well, the natural rate of cervical cancer in that group is vanishingly rare, and unnecessary procedures on teenage cervices leads to very difficult pregnancies down the road.  Just FYI.

Comment #77: skylanda  on  07/25  at  09:06 PM

I was just saying that there are only two reasons someone should even be able to opt out of this vaccine, and in this case one is that you can make the case that other preventative care (pap smears, etc.)

t-ster -
You could make that arguement, if pap smears were a preventative care.  They aren’t. 
They indicate when someone has become infected and allow for quick intervention after the fact.  They do not prevent infection, therefore, they are not preventative care.  They help mitigate possible effects;  and then are effective only if they catch the infection soon enough, if they are done correctly and regularly, if the varietal isn’t a fast and agressive one.
In other words, you could argue it, but not honestly in good faith with pap smears as your example.

Comment #78: helen w. h.  on  07/25  at  09:10 PM

I agree with Amanda that the freakout sounds like it is related to the “sexual” nature of the disease.  Which is really not a good thing.  In addition, protecting against HPV may protect against other cancers as well—certain sinus and throat cancers have been linked to it.  I know this in part because I had a recent sinus-cancer scare, and did a ton of reading on medline.

When trying to calm the general population about HPV, I usually point out that it can be transmitted through non-sexual means as well.

I do think, though, that a parent would be in the right to be more than average upset at their child getting a vaccine not on the schedule.  Although I would have gotten the HPV vaccine if anyone would have given it to me (I am too old, and my doc explained the fact I don’t yet have HPV probably means I have been exposed and managed to fight it off/not get it), I do think it is responsible to wait, as some people mentioned upthread, until a vaccine has been on the market for a while if that is what makes you more comfortable. 

And seconded what Dark Avenger and others have said about vaccines being different—they are—the immune reaction is not the same as it would be were you simply exposed to two illnesses on the same day.

Comment #79: Ismone  on  07/25  at  09:10 PM

Good Post.

I would almost go as far as saying that any parent who refuses to have their daughter vaccinated is unfit.

Comment #80: Brian7  on  07/25  at  09:24 PM

In my experience (college health plan and later Planned Parenthood) the Pap smear is definitely not treated as a normal part of health care. It’s not part of a routine checkup at all (there *are* no routine checkups); it’s very much positioned as a requirement for renewing a birth control prescription and nothing more.

Comment #81: c.e.d.  on  07/25  at  09:57 PM

Wow, MEW really is the worst. Great post, Amanda!

Comment #82: elena  on  07/25  at  10:04 PM

When trying to calm the general population about HPV, I usually point out that it can be transmitted through non-sexual means as well.

HepB is primarily transmitted through fluids/sexual contact and sharing of needles. Thankfully, public health officials did a good job of not giving the HepB vaccine a stigma of being “a vaccine against STDs”, and it’s managed to become part of a standard vaccine regimen in many places without too much controversy. But this is an upsetting lesson—the answer is not to work to reduce the stigma of vaccines that protect against diseases that are sexually transmitted. The answer is to obscure the fact that these vaccines protect against diseases that are sexually transmitted. But sometimes we need to accept reality—if MEW can freak out about it, who knows how fundy parents and those with more serious hangups about sexuality would react.

Comment #83: Tyro  on  07/25  at  10:28 PM

This looks like a classic case of sudden, unexpected parental loss of innocence. It was the moment she realized that if her darling little daughter was going to give her grandchildren, odds are that she was going to have to get laid. This comes as a horrible shock to parents, in many ways even more violent than when children realize that their parents most likely had sex to conceive them. It is also much more serious in consequence as parents are expected to teach their children about adult life while parents should already have figured it out. The horrible thing is that an awful lot of parents simply go into denial and send their married children cabbage seeds, crane feeders, and other such in hopes of another generation.

Comment #84: Kaleberg  on  07/25  at  10:40 PM

I had lymphoma at 23. Trust me, this is an easy call. It’s not a sex shot, it’s a cancer shot.

Comment #85: Liz212  on  07/25  at  10:56 PM

@81/ced—my experience is exactly the opposite.  All my health care plans, including my parents’ when I was in college, student health in grad school, and my private insurance, covered annual exams and Pap smears 100 percent.  Most women I know have annual Paps, and their OB/GYN is usually their primary health provider.  Frankly, for a lot of women, their annual OB/GYN visit can be their only doctor’s visit, since I know very few who have no health issues who routinely see a GP or internist.

Comment #86: Kit-Kat  on  07/25  at  11:21 PM

There was a case in my country of a baby boy receiving Gardasil in place of one of his scheduled shots.  At first the coverage was relatively responsible, focussing on changing practices at the doctor’s office, although there was a bit of “eek, will it turn him into a girl?” in other media.  Unfortunately, probably by sheer coincidence, he got leukemia a couple of years later which turned up the drama a bit.  The parents had a pile of internet Gardasil panic fuelled by antivaxxers and conservative Christians to turn to in their research - I hope they didn’t get too sucked in by it. 

It didn’t have the flavour of lost innocence to it, just ew, girl medicine.  Or ew, vaccine. I know parents who have been scared off it because of antivax rhetoric, and schools that have refused to roll it out to students because of the kinds of parents who veto sex education.

I completely expect that if/when an HIV vaccine is invented, the conservative Christian machine will go into overdrive spreading panic about it, scaring people off it, making it hard to get (no state funding or insurance coverage) and making sure people don’t feel like they have a free pass to be sluts or gay.  And they’ll use the antivax playbook to do this.

Comment #87: Trouble  on  07/25  at  11:38 PM

Citation?  The immune system is constantly bombarded by threats, and two or three more are mostly just drops in the bucket.  There may be specific cases where two vaccines are not recommended together, but as a general rule there’s no reason to assume that a few shots will overwhelm the immune system.

When I said “punch to the system” I meant flailing drunk dude smacking you in the gut not a one-hit knock out form the heavy weight champ. Maybe you don’t remember or maybe you’re too old (or maybe you are superhuman and totally unaffected) but I always felt hella shitty after the MMR and most medical folk will tell you that’s normal. If you can’t or don’t just want to put your kid to bed afterwords and let them sleep it off then you might choose to space out the shots and getting the wrong shot could screw up the schedule and make life that much more of a hassle. It’s just one more level of irritation that is slightly more legitimate than “my poor baby’s innocence has been snatched!”

And for the sake of pedantic nerdiness, my friend was strongly discouraged from receiving any other vaccinations the same day she got the one for Japanese Influenza because it would make her just that sick.

Comment #88: scrumby  on  07/25  at  11:45 PM

I think a lot of people are slightly allergic to part of the MMR vaccine, IIRC. FWIW, I’m allergic to the pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine, so if someone jabbed me with a DPT instead of a DT the next time I get a tetanus booster, I’m not sure what would result medically, but I would hope the clinic would have decent malpractice insurance.

Comment #89: Maureen  on  07/25  at  11:50 PM

When the hepatitis vaccine first came out, my daughter was about 12.  The pediatrician said they had recommended that kids get it before they become sexually active, but since most parents then say “then my kid won’t need it because they won’t be sexually active”  (and that was my first thought - she was my oldest, and she was 12 - my baby will have sex?  No way!”) so they just recommended that everybody get it.  The difference between me and MEW was that I realized immediately that thinking that was probably silly.

Comment #90: gretchen  on  07/25  at  11:56 PM

There IS a biological difference between STIs and most diseases we require vaccines for; measles/mumps/etc., and even HepB (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatitis_B#Transmission) can be spread through casual contact, whereas HPV is pretty much something you get from sex, period. I’m not saying sex is bad or that only sluts get HPV or that the vaccine wil lead normal 11-year-olds to turn tricks on the street for heroin (though I know that there is a significant contingent of people out there making those arguments).  I plan to get the HPV vaccine this year, and will, barring extenuating circumstances like allergic reactions, get it for my (at the moment hypothetical) children as soon as they’re old enough.  All that is at issue for me here is whether the risks the vaccine is protecting against are enough of a threat to public health to justify making it mandatory.  Making a vaccine mandatory is removing families’ and individuals’ rights to say what happens to their body.  As far as I’m concerned, we should be setting a very high bar for that.  (Remember, the FDA also said the Dalkon Shield was safe and effective.  Sometimes it pays to be a little wary of relatively new technologies.) And the fact that MEW’s article is a bit whiny and excessive about the “sexuality” part of this vaccine shouldn’t change that.  (As for the medical mistake, nobody’s perfect, but I’d be pretty pissed too, even if the mistaken vaccine were a nonsexual one.)  My future children will not get HPV from sitting next to a kid who hasn’t been vaccinated in school, nor from wiping away a friend’s tears on the playground.  Not so much with most diseases we require vaccinations against.  I think that is reasonable grounds for tipping the scale towards allowing families and individuals to decide when and/or whether to get a vaccine.

On a different note, it wouldn’t be so easy for real crazies to criticize this as the sex shot if the FDA would just approve it for women over 26. It’s not that hard.  If only women in the age group most likely to be having non-monogamous sexual relationships can be vaccinated, the right is going to think it’s a sex vaccine.  If middle-aged women in mom jeans start getting it, the “slutty slut vaccine” argument becomes more difficult to sell to the public.

Comment #91: vim876  on  07/26  at  12:21 AM

1) Amanda is completely right that this is about mom not being able to handle the existence of daughter’s sexuality.  Receiving a vaccine against an STD is not “life-changing” in any meaningful way.

2) We are way, way, way underreacting to the medical error.  Speaking as someone who has lost three grandparents to medical error and who was damn near killed himself the same way, giving someone the “wrong” vaccine is utterly inexcusable.  The OP’s freakout over sex shouldn’t obscure how absolutely awful and insane this is.

“Medical errors happen” is like saying “drunk drivers happen” in 1965.  Yes, it’s true.  But when they happen to you, it’s still awful, and it’s still insane how our society tolerates them.

Comment #92: Punditus Maximus  on  07/26  at  12:36 AM

There’s less point in giving to women over 26 - it’s not that they don’t need protection against an incredibly common and mostly asymptomatic disease because they’re now monogamous, it’s that they’ve probably already been exposed to it and either gotten over it or are busy already developing precancerous cells.  It would be like giving chickenpox vaccine to an adult, except that you mostly know whether you’ve had chickenpox.

There’s a lot of confusion as to whether Gardasil prevents the kind of warts people notice and think “oh no, I’ve got an STI”.  My understanding (and I could be wrong) was that the cancer-causing HPV strains are otherwise asymptomatic, and that maybe 80% of people who have ever had sex have caught it without knowing.

Comment #93: Trouble  on  07/26  at  01:12 AM

Making a vaccine mandatory is removing families’ and individuals’ rights to say what happens to their body.

That is ridiculous thinking.  “oh, my kid should have the right to get sick and die from cancer if she feels like it someday.”  The reason these diseases persist is because of bullshit thinking like that.  You have the right to your body, but you don’t have the right to screw around with the rest of us, which is what you do by not getting vaccinations.  Hell, men don’t even have a reliable test to tell them if they’re a carrier; they won’t even know they’re giving it to someone.

Comment #94: JoeD80  on  07/26  at  01:23 AM

What’s your answer to the problem Punditus? Because the only answer I can think of is for all medical professionals to be droids, like in Star Wars.

Comment #95: typist  on  07/26  at  02:45 AM

Like everyone else but Amanda, I guess, I totally see why anyone would get angry and outraged over a medical mistake as potentially serious as giving a kid the wrong vaccine.  Not that this was serious. But. It could have been.

But why scare the kid into thinking something horrible was going to happen?

As for the melodramatic “My daughter’s life changed FOREVER” well, drama queen….

On the other hand, maybe Williams’ older daughter is 100% confident she’s a lesbian and so very much less likely to get HPV-infected?

Comment #96: Jesurgislac  on  07/26  at  02:55 AM

It was the moment she realized that if her darling little daughter was going to give her grandchildren, odds are that she was going to have to get laid. This comes as a horrible shock to parents,

Um no, no “they” don’t.  My daughter is three and a half, and I’m fully aware that she’s growing up and at some point in the future will mature into a sexual being.  This is because I don’t regard her as a super-special snowflake different from all other people in the entire world who belongs to me and will never change, but as a human being who I love with all my heart and whom I want to have a full and satisfying life.

Comment #97: Katherine  on  07/26  at  06:01 AM

It was the moment she realized that if her darling little daughter was going to give her grandchildren, odds are that she was going to have to get laid. This comes as a horrible shock to - parents

Um no, no it doesn’t.  I can’t speak for all parents (unlike you), but my daughter is three and a half and I’m fully aware that she’s growing up and will one day mature into a sexual being (probably - allowing for the small possibility that she’ll grow up to be asexual).  This is because I do not regard my daughter as a super-special snowflake different from all other people on the planet who belongs to me forever, but as a human being who I love with all my heart, and thus want her to have a full and satisfying life, whatever that turns out to mean for her.

Not that hard really.

Comment #98: Katherine  on  07/26  at  06:04 AM

Oops, sorry for double post.

Comment #99: Katherine  on  07/26  at  06:05 AM

On the other hand, maybe Williams’ older daughter is 100% confident she’s a lesbian and so very much less likely to get HPV-infected?

Really? If condoms aren’t a sure protection against it then neither are dental dams and rubber gloves. Lots of young women are very poorly informed about how to have safe sex with a person of the same gender because it’s not something anyone really talks about outside of queer communities. Throw in that she could get raped or experiment or find Jesus and change her mind and you cannot guarantee that she will never have sexual contact with a male assuming that’s the most likely way to contract the disease. Betting on a child being gay and never having to worry about certain outcomes of hetero-sex is just as naive as betting they’ll save it till marriage with an equally virginal partner.

Comment #100: scrumby  on  07/26  at  06:13 AM

Making a vaccine mandatory is removing families’ and individuals’ rights to say what happens to their body.  As far as I’m concerned, we should be setting a very high bar for that….  My future children will not get HPV from sitting next to a kid who hasn’t been vaccinated in school, nor from wiping away a friend’s tears on the playground.  Not so much with most diseases we require vaccinations against.  I think that is reasonable grounds for tipping the scale towards allowing families and individuals to decide when and/or whether to get a vaccine.

So your future child will instead get HPV from having sex with a kid who hasn’t been vaccinated after school.  How does that change anything?  I’m sorry if it makes you uncomfortable to think about, but assuming your future child lives long enough—and we hope that she does—she’s gonna be having sex. It’s not like sex is this wacky aberrant behavior that only terrible twisted people we don’t like to think about have.  You have sex, your friends have sex, your parents have sex, and your kids have sex.  The fact that you’d rather think about your future children comforting their friends on the playground than your future children delighting their friends in the bedroom doesn’t change anything about the public health impact of a vaccine that can PREVENT CANCER.

Comment #101: Denise  on  07/26  at  08:23 AM

“Really? If condoms aren’t a sure protection against it then neither are dental dams and rubber gloves.”

Nevertheless, lesbians as a group have low rates of cervical cancer. Obviously there isn’t any kind of “lesbian immunity”, but there are some strong health advantages for women in tending to have the kind of sex where you don’t get exposed to blood or semen.

“Lots of young women are very poorly informed about how to have safe sex with a person of the same gender because it’s not something anyone really talks about outside of queer communities. “

Absolutely. It’s a statistical advantage, not a medical one. As a general rule, we’re more likely to have safe sex, and less likely therefore to transmit or acquire infections.

“Throw in that she could get raped or experiment or find Jesus and change her mind and you cannot guarantee that she will never have sexual contact with a male assuming that’s the most likely way to contract the disease. “

Yes. I know tone is hard to convey on the Internet, but I was slightly making a joke. I don’t suppose Williams would be any happier, in her sex-fearing way, if her daughter HAD said “Hey mom, I’m going to be a lesbian when I grow up so I don’t NEED that!”

“Betting on a child being gay and never having to worry about certain outcomes of hetero-sex is just as naive as betting they’ll save it till marriage with an equally virginal partner.”

...SLIGHTLY less naive, please. The odds are a lot better for a lifelong lesbian not to need HPV vaccination than a girl counting on staying virgin till marriage with a virgin partner.

Comment #102: Jesurgislac  on  07/26  at  08:46 AM

Jesurgislac, you failed to mention how being a lifelong lesbian protects her from the possibility of being raped by a man carrying HPV….............................................

Comment #103: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/26  at  09:30 AM

So, you’ve really never made a mistake, James?  Please share your secrets.

I’ll add that medically, I’ve not made a mistake.  Granted, I am not employed in a medical profession, but I am a client.  My main interaction has been with precriptions and dressings.  So, my secrets:

(1)  Keep prescriptions in their labeled containers, and read and follow the instructions.  For antibiotics, follow through with the prescription, even when the symptoms of the infection have disappeared.

(2)  For certain prescriptions that require extra care, apply that extra care.  Most notably for me was a prescription for vivotif berna, the oral vaccine for typhus.  It requires refrigeration and regular timing between doses.  I assume I did this correctly, since after signficant travel to areas where typhus is endemic, I did not contract typhus.  Reading about one’s prescriptions and learning about potential interactions and special instructions should be a standard procedure.

(3)  When traveling, do the necessary research.  While this isn’t foolproof, it reduces the chance of illness when traveling.  I’ve spent months in Asia and Africa, and have avoided food and water borne illnesses.  (Despite using larium and mosquito netting, in 2001 I did contract chronic malaria.  Sometimes, no matter what you do, a mosquito will get through.)

(4)  When tending wounds, keep them clean.  Change dressings regularly, and use sterile dressing where possible.  This prevented secondary infections after a snake bite in 1996 and a venomous spider bite in 2009.

Amanda, why do you think it is OK to tolerate medical errors that can be easily addresses by proper labeling, reading, and checklists?

Comment #104: James  on  07/26  at  09:44 AM

Who says we should “tolerate” medical errors?  The upshot of most comments has been that, while medical errors of this type are justifiably upsetting, it is a simple fact that mistakes happen, and if the mistake turns out to be benign, we should probably save the freaking out.  We don’t how or why this particular mistake was made, so we have no idea what might have prevented it.  If something like this happened to me, I would be upset because, generally, I like to know what’s being injected into my body, and I would certainly complain and possibly report the incident to the relevant licensing authority in case there was a pattern of this kind of mistake, but I don’t think I would get all hysterical about it and call for someone’s head.  Because mistakes happen, even when people are being careful and following the rules.  And while doctors should be looking for ways to reduce the incidence of mistakes, we’re just never going to live in a world where they don’t happen.  I make mistakes in my job, even when I’m being careful.  I assume doctors are the same.

Comment #105: Kit-Kat  on  07/26  at  11:58 AM

I would be scared if my doctor said ‘oops, I injected the wrong thing into you’.  But on the other hand, an incorrect vaccination is hardly dangerous.

Comment #106: Crissa  on  07/26  at  12:02 PM

vim876,

While the agreement seems to be that people get genital hpv through sexual contact (which makes sense), that does not mean that it is the only way the disease can be spread.  I know a person who probably got it from waxing, because she got it, and then her partner did.  (The visible kind.) 

Also, studies have shown that oral transmission of hpv can be caused through french kissing.  And hpv has been found on the hands of juvenile males.  And hpv in other parts of the body can cause other cancers, or at the very least, is highly associated with them.  I learned when I had a sinus tumor/megapolyp whatever the fuck it was, that if it were to show signs of either epstein-barr virus or hpv I would have a higher risk of it being cancerous or growing back cancerous.

But it would make sense that transmission of hpv that leads to problems with the cervix would be caused by penetrative intercourse, because the cervix is pretty far up in there.

Comment #107: Ismone  on  07/26  at  12:29 PM

Memo to self: Heterosexuals and gay men really don’t find lesbian jokes funny.

Thanks for the rape comment, Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein.

Comment #108: Jesurgislac  on  07/26  at  12:46 PM

My pets got the wrong vaccines a few weeks ago, mixed up whether we were doing the distemper or rabies that particular visit, so had to have a reschedule. Which was moderately annoying, but considering there was no long-term consequence, really not a big deal.

Because seriously, mixing up one vaccine schedule for the other when there is no allergy or other concern? Not nearly as big a deal as giving insulin, even. For malpractice you have to prove you suffered harm from the error - getting a shot that had no problems? Not malpractice
Here are some ways to decrease the errors!
Switch to higher cost single dose syringes so there isn’t the “are you suuuure you drew up one of each? which one is which? are you positive?” If all you have to do is slap on a needle, then yes, you’re sure!
Store the vaccines in the same area they’ll be given - decreases transit issues from setting down the syringes near someone else’s, etc.

And this one is directed at my lovely fellow nurses, there is no glory in not saying what you’re doing the entire time - “now here is X medication” as opposed to silence. Not that it would necessarily work out if say, said 11-year-old was alone in the room and didn’t know she was there for the MMR instead of the HPV, but if mom was in the room, hey, error prevented!

Also, we don’t know that because of this they didn’t do something like have the nurse be observed for a week or have additional training or otherwise try and correct this error - because indeed, it IS a problem, just not perhaps burning at the stake level.

Comment #109: Tenya  on  07/26  at  01:23 PM

@107:
I was unaware that there was statistically significant nonsexual transmission.  In light of that, I amin the process of rethinking my views on the subject.  Thank you.  BTW, how can one get it from waxing?  That’s terrifying!

Comment #110: vim876  on  07/26  at  01:55 PM

but I remind you there are folks such as myself who do get sick the day after getting a shot, if you’ve never experienced it, lucky you.

Poor baby. And I often get sick the day after exposure to non-vaccine immunogens…and various people have allergies, where their immune systems overreact to nothing at all. Isn’t life terribly difficult?

Comment #111: Bagelsan  on  07/26  at  02:52 PM

I remain absolutely baffled by the embrace of medical error in this thread.  Is it just that it’s so utterly ubiquitous and so certain that we will all be brutalized by medical error repeatedly that it’s not worth looking at?

Because the first response was a strawman of “We cannot prevent every single error, so we should not be in any way concerned by even the most obvious and egregious of failures.”

Comment #112: Punditus Maximus  on  07/26  at  03:34 PM

various people have allergies, where their immune systems overreact to nothing at all

Yes, I had a girlfriend who suffered from allergies because of living in the South in an area full of piney woods, and pine pollen.

On my suggestion she got tested and they were able to treat her with shots, since she worked on campus she could get them at the medical clinic so that she didn’t have to take time off from work.

I know allergic reactions can come out of nowhere.  When I was a young lad, my dad saw some pomegranates growing by the side of the road and decided to pick some because he knew I liked them.

He got stuck by one of the thorns or splinters and developed a reaction that was almost full-blown anaphylatic shock.  He had never ingested any pomegranate products before, and had a history of being sensitive to bee stings, but nothing else.

Isn’t life terribly difficult?

No, because I know that I might get to feeling rundown and sick the next day, so if it happens, BFD.

And as I mentioned earlier, there are already vaccines that can be combined, but vaccines are designed to stimulate and provoke the immune response in a specific way:

Some vaccines are made from toxins. In these cases, the toxin is often treated with aluminum or adsorbed onto aluminum salts to decrease it’s harmful effects; after such treatment the toxin is called a “toxoid.” Examples of toxoids are the diphtheria and the tetanus vaccines. Vaccines made from toxoids often induce low level immune responses and are therefore sometimes administered with an “adjuvant” - an agent which increases the immune response. For example, the diphtheria and tetanus vaccines are often combined with the pertussis vaccine and administered together as a DPT immunization. The pertussis acts as an adjuvant in this vaccine. When more than one vaccine is administered together it is called a “conjugated vaccine.” Toxoid vaccines often require a booster every ten years.

http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEC/CC/vaccines_how_why.php

I’m not asking for pity, just some understanding of how immunology works.

Comment #113: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/26  at  03:34 PM

Ack!

PLEASE put images of people sticking needles in other people after a jump or something!

Comment #114: wreading  on  07/26  at  03:38 PM

I remain absolutely baffled by the embrace of medical error in this thread.  Is it just that it’s so utterly ubiquitous and so certain that we will all be brutalized by medical error repeatedly that it’s not worth looking at?

Because the first response was a strawman of “We cannot prevent every single error, so we should not be in any way concerned by even the most obvious and egregious of failures.”

I know.  Especially after I’ve encountered a few MDs among my MD roommates’ acquaintances who were blase about admitting to committing serious medical errors including those which killed the patient.  Even after being investigated and being let off by the AMA didn’t phase them as they seemed to really display the “Dun matter” attitudes which was really disturbing to me and the roommates. 

What’s more sad was that some of the reasons why they have harshly curved intro STEM courses for pre-meds and increasingly insanely competitive med school admissions is precisely to filter out as many students with such “lackadaisical” attitudes before they even apply to med school.  Words paraphrased from one MD roommate disgusted with those acquaintances.

Comment #115: exholt  on  07/26  at  04:08 PM

Nah, I’m still baffled.  Isn’t jabbing a needle into someone and injecting them with something they didn’t ask for, however accidentally beneficial, pretty obviously criminal assault?

Comment #116: Punditus Maximus  on  07/26  at  04:21 PM

But again Punditus, what’s your solution? Ok, I guess you can create a system of accountability with far more draconian punishments than presently exist. We can say “You used the wrong needle, now you don’t get to be a doctor anymore”. How many perfect replacements do you have waiting in the wings for every doctor you want to eject from the profession?

Comment #117: typist  on  07/26  at  05:29 PM

Again with the straw man of perfection.

I have no idea why it’s acceptable that someone asked to have a particular thing injected into their body, and they got something else.  At the very minimum, the doc’s office owes her a good ten thou.

Again, three of my four grandparents were killed by preventable medical error.  Each time, medical professionals who evaluated their cases were appalled at the incompetence.  This has consequences.

Comment #118: Punditus Maximus  on  07/26  at  05:55 PM

I’m not asking for pity, just some understanding of how immunology works.

Yeah, I’ve had those immunology classes too, and I know what an adjuvant is. I’m just sick of people bringing up the tired old saw of “oh noes multiple vaccines!!!1” as if your immune system has never had to deal with that before. And adjuvants substitute, in part, for naturally occurring stimulants of the immune system like tissue injury (which can happen under the non-vaccine circumstances I listed)—it’s nicer to mix it into the shot than create a wound at the injection site, but the idea of increasing an immune response is actually one that happens in nature, too! Your body loves that shit! The mere fact that an adjuvant is used is not evidence that a vaccine is especially dangerous or harmful; it just means it used to be too wussy.

Comment #119: Bagelsan  on  07/26  at  06:30 PM

Enough with the strawmen—no one said it’s acceptable to get the wrong vaccine.  We’re just saying its not the same as being “brutalized,” nor is it deserving of incarceration or burning at the stake.  And no, it’s not criminal assault to give someone the wrong shot.  Look, I had an uncle whose surgeon operated on the wrong leg.  I told him to sue, because he had a clear case of medical malpractice.  But honest to god, it’s not even the point of the OP, which was about freaking out because your kid got the sex shot.  In fact, I think everyone agrees that it’s a bad thing for doctors/nurses/medical professionals to mix up vaccines, but, given no bad effects, its not this huge honking freak-out worthy nightmare.

Comment #120: Kit-Kat  on  07/26  at  07:02 PM

I’m just sick of people bringing up the tired old saw of “oh noes multiple vaccines!!!1” as if your immune system has never had to deal with that before.

FOR THE THIRD TIME, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HAVING A VACCINE THAT IS DESIGNED TO BE MULTI-VALENT IN APPLICATION, AND PUTTING TWO SHOTS TOGETHER THAT WERE NOT MEANT TO BE ADMINISTERED TOGETHER IN THE FIRST PLACE!

The mere fact that an adjuvant is used is not evidence that a vaccine is especially dangerous or harmful; it just means it used to be too wussy.

I JUST QUOTED WHAT PEOPLE IN THE FIELD SAY ABOUT ADJUVANTS, I DIDN’T SAY IT MAKES THINGS WORSE.

Comment #121: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/26  at  07:59 PM

NBarnes @ 56
“I worry about the people that feel the need to explain to an 11 year old that the HPV vaccine is for *gasp* an STD!!1!. .”

Exactly!

When I got the Polio vaccine, I didn’t have a sit down with Mom & Dad to solemnly discuss how Polio was transmitted
Ditto for Small Pox
Why should HPV be different?

Comment #122: jefft452  on  07/26  at  08:57 PM

Plantar warts: heard of ‘em? Caused by - you guessed it - HPV.

Comment #123: Kristen from MA  on  07/26  at  09:55 PM

I JUST QUOTED WHAT PEOPLE IN THE FIELD SAY ABOUT ADJUVANTS, I DIDN’T SAY IT MAKES THINGS WORSE.

And my first comment (as well as the ‘oh noes’ comment), which you took exception to, wasn’t addressed to you was it? But sure, please continue yelling; it makes your “point” sound so much more legitimate and rational. 9.9

Comment #124: Bagelsan  on  07/26  at  11:26 PM

To be fair, there probably is a very easy way to cut down on hospital mistakes at least. Stop with the 12 hour shifts.

Actually, many hospital errors were eliminated when they went to 12-hour shifts.  Why? Because that is one fewer transition each day, and 1/3 fewer transitions overall.  Transitions result in errors because of communication breakdowns and simple losses of continuity.

What they need to do is accept that a 12 hour shift can’t morph in to a 14 or 16 hour shift plus paperwork.

Comment #125: Ms Kate  on  07/27  at  12:10 AM

Then kindly address your objections by name to the person you’re ‘debunking’, dummy.

Comment #126: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/27  at  12:17 AM

I have no idea why it’s acceptable that someone asked to have a particular thing injected into their body, and they got something else.  At the very minimum, the doc’s office owes her a good ten thou.

For what? Look, man, if I tell a doctor that my left arm has persistent pain, and he prods my right arm, and I say, “no, my left!”, has the doctor committed assault? No. He just prodded the wrong place.

No one was harmed in this screw up. MEW could have written a really interesting article on, “my daughter was the victim of a harmless screwup. It didn’t hurt her, but it could have. What best practices can doctors use to stop these preventable accidents from happening?” Instead she wrote a self-absorbed drama-drenched screed about how her “daughter’s life was changed forever.”

What if I had gotten the Hep A vaccine instead of the Hep B vaccine? Nothing. (incidentally, I got the Hep A vaccine later. No one had to sit me down to have a heart-to-heart talk about sanitation before I “made a serious decision about my body”)

Comment #127: Tyro  on  07/27  at  12:27 AM

However, at the very minimum the doctor’s office needs to 1) apologise AND not charge for the mistaken shot; 2) audit the processes so that the next time it isn’t insulin instead of HPV vaccine (not above post about a similar error) and doesn’t kill someone; and 3) report the results of the audit and the corrective actions to the patient.

Actually, there should be requirements for reporting these errors (there are in some states) and evidence of reporting, auditing, and corrective measures need to be public.

The fact that it had no real consequence other than to get somebody to do their job as a parent of a fertile child is really moot.  The same error with slight variation can be very dangerous, and there needs to be a corrective response.

Comment #128: Ms Kate  on  07/27  at  08:29 AM

The fact that it had no real consequence other than to get somebody to do their job as a parent of a fertile child is really moot.  The same error with slight variation can be very dangerous, and there needs to be a corrective response.
Comment #128: Ms Kate on 07/27 at 08:29 AM

Problem is, the article didn’t address this point.  It instead went all dramatic about some imaginary consequence. 

And it was based on her assumption that the nurse independently chose to give her daughter Gardasil rather than the much more likely “thought box G was checked instead of box H” scenario.  She turned a scary moment that becomes an “oops” into a dramafest, with her child scared, sobbing, angry, betrayed—why would she be sobbing unless her mother gave her the idea that something terrible had happened?

And as Tenya noted, we have no idea what went on in the doctor’s office after the error was discovered.

Comment #129: oldfeminist  on  07/27  at  10:30 AM

Two things:
1. If “your kid is now less likely to get cancer” is the WORST news you hear all day, you must be having a REALLY good day.
2. That said, I have to agree with the previous commenter: what if it had been Insulin or something? Yes, mistakes happen, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t TRY to prevent them.

Comment #130: DataSnake  on  07/27  at  02:10 PM
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