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Next entry: Quick, Someone Quote Martin Luther King! Previous entry: Wah!

I get letters

This one was particularly entertaining, from Sharon Kass, whose bigotry has blinded her to the point where she's joined in on a vicious conservative attack on a 7-year-old who wants to join the Girl Scouts

Dear Ms. Marcotte:

No one is born "gay" or "transgender."

These conditions arise as a result of faulty bonding and identification with the same-sex parent, starting in early life. They indicate deep-seated gender self-alienation (TG's cross-identify with an opposite-sex figure), and are preventable and treatable.

The writings of well-known figures like Chastity Bono, James Morris, and Richard Raskind confirm this pattern.

Psychiatrist Richard Fitzgibbons's articles "Gender Identity Disorder in Children" and "The Desire for a Sex Change" are instructive.

The Left has been lying to the public for decades, with false science and false argument. "Gays" are a manufactured "minority" used for political purposes.

The National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality has the real information (http://www.narth.com).

More and more Americans are learning the truth. GayScam, this fraud, will be ended. The laws will be adjusted accordingly.

--Sharon Kass Washington, D.C.

I responded:

Well, you weren't born an asshole, either, but I still think it's wrong to take your computer away.

And then, feeling like perhaps she doesn't have the mental acuity to get the joke, I followed up with:

I'll add that no one is born religious, either. That condition arises, often as in your case, because of a strong hatred in the heart that can't be rationalized by real world evidence. So fantasies of gods and demons arise, giving the religious person justifications for their ugliness and irrational hatred, in this case of queer people. These fantasies are preventable, and treatable.

Since you appear to have blanket refusal for giving anyone rights for conditions they weren't "born" with, to be consistent, you should work on banning the practice of religion. After all, the question of homosexuality or transgenderism being inherent at birth is still up in the air, but no one believes babies are born religious.

"Blame the mother" is an old, and thoroughly discredited theory. Quacks like to cling to it, often in all sorts of ways, for the same reason that anti-vaxxers talk vaguely about "toxins" in vaccines. The reason is that nearly anyone's experiences can be framed this way, if need be. If your mom showed you affection as a child---and mothers are known to do t hat---and you were clingy and needy---I have rarely seen a child that is not---then a manipulative bigot can use that as "evidence" that you overly identified with your parent. Perversely, if your mother was actually distant or unaffectionate, that also can be used, as you'll then be told that you were made clingier by lack of affection. Once you've determined that being queer is a "disease" with its roots in childhood, you're able to exploit anything from even the most idyllic childhood and claim that as the cause. 

Ironically, Kass is not only wrong that "more and more" Americans are turning against gay people, but she has it completely backwards. As the real-world evidence piles in that being gay or transgendered is not inherently damaging, and certainly is not experienced as  "choice" any more than being straight is, more and more Americans are coming around to support gay and transgender rights. This includes the American Psychological Association, which says

There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.

They also take this position on transgendered people:

Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures, and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression, or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

In other words, what psychological distress stems from being transgendered is not inherent to the state, but a result of bigotry. Anyone who claims to be concerned about the mental health of gay and transgendered people should respond, then, with acceptance. Like I said in the comments at the Girl Scouts post, I hear a lot of complaints from bigots about how they don't like accepting people, but so far, I have not heard one give a substantive example of genuine damage to themselves that could occur by just accepting people for who they are. 

Sharp readers will notice that I didn't engage in the debate over whether or not people are "born this way". Empowering Lady Gaga lyrics aside, the reason is twofold. One, the evidence is sketchy for any claims about where queerness "comes" from, and in fact, many of us think that's because we're asking the wrong question. Asking where queerness "comes" from implies that cisgendered and straight is a baseline, and anything that differs from that is deviant and needs an explanation. I think of queerness like I do being left-handed: most people are right-handed, but some of us are left-handed. We don't think of left-handed people as deviant so much as we accept that in any population of people, there's going to be some diversity in orientation, as in personality.

The second reason is that it's beside the point. My sense is that sexual orientation and gender identity are probably a mish-mash of genetic, environmental, and experiential influences, but even if you could somehow prove that it's all experiential, so what? It doesn't change the needs of queer people to get proper medical care, social acceptance, and legal rights. I don't give a fuck about this "choice" argument. There is a small subset of the GLBT community that can legitimately be said to be making the "choice" to be at least perceived as gay: bisexual people who really could date either way but have chosen a same-sex partner. So what? I still don't think they should face employment discrimination, being kicked out of community organizations, or being forced not to marry the person they love. It's a completely moot argument, in the pragmatic sense. A lot of identities are partially social constructs, but we still recognize them as real and extend legal protections from discrimination. On the far end, you have religion, which is 100% a choice and completely a social construct, but religious people, in fact, enjoy many legal protections for their religion. On the other end of the spectrum, you have things like race and gender, which are socially constructed but often have easily recognizable physical markers that let people know "what" you are. Gayness is rightly perceived as closer to the race/gender side of the spectrum, since all available evidence shows that it's mostly experienced as not a choice. But it doesn't really matter to me; what matters is that it's on the spectrum, and therefore people who are gay or transgendered deserve to be protected.

I'm taking the rest of the day off---though I'll be on Twitter for the debates tonight---to honor MLK Day. Everyone should celebrate by getting some relaxing in. That said, I had to take the time to respond to someone who had the nerve to use this holiday to send off bigoted missives. 

------

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:42 AM • (77) Comments

“Gays” are a manufactured “minority” used for political purposes.

...what purposes, exactly? If equality, fairness, and happiness aren’t the true end goals, as “gay agenda” scaremongers seem to imply, what is?

Comment #1: Triplanetary  on  01/16  at  10:41 AM

Yeah, I didn’t know that they’d started manufacturing them!  I have a lot of political purposes and I would like to put in a bulk order.

Comment #2: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  01/16  at  10:49 AM

I do believe the theory is that the liberal-feminist cabal invented homosexuality as part of our mission to destroy the nuclear family. Of course, if that was even remotely true, I hardly think the number one plank on the agenda would be adjusting the law so that gay people can create legally recognized nuclear families.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  10:55 AM

Good points all around. I always thought the “gay people are born that way, so you should accept them” argument was pretty lame. For one thing, the evidence is sparse and there could very well be different underlying causes for different people. In the end, it doesn’t matter if every gay person did choose to be gay. That is their right, and it doesn’t hurt anyone.

Comment #4: penn  on  01/16  at  10:57 AM

...
  The Left has been lying to the public for decades, with false science and false argument. “Gays” are a manufactured “minority” used for political purposes.

...

  More and more Americans are learning the truth. GayScam, this fraud, will be ended. The laws will be adjusted accordingly.

  —Sharon Kass Washington, D.C.

This sounds oddly similar to the “Palestinians don’t exist” line.

Comment #5: atheist  on  01/16  at  11:01 AM

Also, I just found it randomly amusing that she addressed you as “Ms. Marcotte.” That honorific is only in standard usage now because of feminists. The discerning misogynist refers to unwed ladies as “Miss.”

Comment #6: Triplanetary  on  01/16  at  11:07 AM

At least she didn’t go with “Mrs.”, which I get once in awhile, which always makes me want to ask if they think I married my father. (Now I’ve grossed myself out.)

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  11:09 AM

It’s interesting that you say we just accept that some people are right handed and some are left handed, because up until 1950s it was quite common to force left handed children to learn to write with the “wrong” hand, and being left handed was seen as something inherently wrong and deviant (giving us the original meaning of the word “sinister” and the British english colloquialism “cack-handed”), but you’re entirely correct that discrimination seems absolutely absurd now. It’s one of the side-effects of having a less conformist society. Maybe if we’re lucky, 50 years from now homophobia will seem just as incomprehensible.

Comment #8: TFJ  on  01/16  at  11:10 AM

I’m more interested in how the manufactured gay scam is scamming.  How is marriage equity a scam?

We’re discriminating against her right to be a bigot, aren’t we?  Interfering with her right to be self-righteous to her chosen targets.

Comment #9: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/16  at  11:11 AM

No one is born “gay” or “transgender.”

This will be news to most of the researchers working on the topic.  Twin studies indicate about a 50% heritability (genetic) contribution.  Interestingly, a mans chances of being gay increase with the number of older brothers, suggesting factors in the uterine environment may also contribute to it.  It is also the case that both groups generally become aware of their status at rather young ages (about the time one is forming gender/sexual identities).

Comment #10: DrDick  on  01/16  at  11:12 AM

I feel I should also state, after reading your piece about the Christian right and the Girl Scouts, that this conflict still blows my mind. Is there some way we can defend the Girl Scouts against this crap?

Comment #11: atheist  on  01/16  at  11:18 AM

I feel I should also state, after reading your piece about the Christian right and the Girl Scouts, that this conflict still blows my mind. Is there some way we can defend the Girl Scouts against this crap?

Sometimes the defense is easy:  buy cookies!  The haters are trying to organize a boycott.

Comment #12: Inspector Spacetime  on  01/16  at  11:22 AM

Sometimes the defense is easy:  buy cookies!  The haters are trying to organize a boycott.

This is one thing that actually makes me glad I’m in the US now.  Not only can I participate in this, but the cookies are better. The ones the Girl guides sell in Canada are fairly ‘meh’.

Comment #13: Jayn Newell  on  01/16  at  11:32 AM

“If equality, fairness, and happiness aren’t the true end goals, as “gay agenda” scaremongers seem to imply, what is?”

...don’t you know?  Everything the Left does is aimed at making people on the Right feel bad about “natural” and “normal” hatreds they think everyone has (or should have).

That guy over there is Black, that one over here has long hair, the other one over there is some Hare Krishna freak hippie, he looks queer, she looks like a dyke, that mixed-race couple makes me ill, etc (sounds like a Pink Floyd song, don’t it?).  I ought to be able to pick out the ones that don’t fit my world view and freely hate them all, and advocate their isolation or elimination, with no repercussions and no guilt — just like I should be able to drive the biggest gas-guzzler, eat (or wear) the most endangered animals, deny global warming, vote to cut taxes on myself and those I know while also cutting every government service or benefit I don’t get, support the most hateful laws, support the most hateful wars, cheer torture, close public schools, deny medical care, and sit in a pew and demonize everyone who doesn’t have religious beliefs just like mine, and feel not one tinge of doubt, spend not one moment questioning my moral code, waste not one gram of sympathy for another person I’ve targeted with my hate.

What is best in life?  “To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women”.  Who are my enemies?  Everyone who is not exactly like me…

Comment #14: MikeEss  on  01/16  at  11:32 AM

@Comment #12: Smikey on 01/16 at 08:22 AM

Sometimes the defense is easy:  buy cookies!  The haters are trying to organize a boycott.

I’ve already bought some but I’ll get some more.

Comment #15: atheist  on  01/16  at  11:35 AM

Girl Scout showed up at my door yesterday asking if I wanted to buy cookies. I managed to transform my “Damn skippy!” into a “yes” before it came out of my mouth…this is definitely the easiest protest movement ever.

Comment #16: Jon  on  01/16  at  11:45 AM

Amanda, if they address you as Mrs., that’s because they think you’re the cook in the house(It’s an English convention that the cook is always called “Mrs X———-” regardless of her actual marriage status.)

Comment #17: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/16  at  11:58 AM

I sort of resent that the options are “born this way” or “it’s a choice” as a subset of queer people –including myself, so there’s my bias – experience some fluidity in their gender identity or sexual orientation, but which is certainly not under their control. Someone may find themselves more attracted to men one day and more attracted to women the next, or there may be slow changes over a lifetime. I’m not trying to attack this article, though, it’s very well done. I think the “choice” vs “permanently stamped on at birth” conflict arose as a reaction to homophobia and transphobia a long time ago. And I also respect that many people legitimately experience their sexuality as fixed.

Comment #18: JilliefromChile  on  01/16  at  12:08 PM

On the far end, you have religion, which is 100% a choice and completely a social construct

And political orientation.  There is absolutely no question that your political affiliation is not something you are born with (though it does tend to be something you get from your parents).  But even Ben Stein wants the right to sue in the event of political discrimination.

Comment #19: Cris (without an H)  on  01/16  at  12:10 PM

In the end, it doesn’t matter if every gay person did choose to be gay. That is their right, and it doesn’t hurt anyone.

On the other hand, everyone chooses which religion to follow, and they still have the legal right to do that.  Our rights aren’t based on whether we’re born a certain way or not.  And I also don’t like the way the argument sort of concedes that being homosexual is undesirable put the poor dears just can’t help themselves so we have to tolerate it.

Comment #20: bananacat  on  01/16  at  12:15 PM

“After all, the question of homosexuality or transgenderism being inherent at birth is still up in the air, but no one believes babies are born religious.”

Sadly this is incorrect. The popularity of “baby preacher” and “baby worshipper” videos on youtube is due to the belief that babies comprehend ideas of God from birth. Obviously the babies are reacting to socialization, but as with kids that absorb gender socialization despite the efforts of their parents, a lot of conservatives seem to think that babies are too young to absorb socialization and that socialization only comes in the form of parental influence.

Even though I can’t buy US Girl Scouts cookies, I’ll totally be there in spirit eating some rainbow sprinkle cookies and spreading the word wink

Comment #21: Treefinger  on  01/16  at  12:22 PM

COOKIE FINDER!

The official Girl Scout website includes a Cookie Finder: plug in your zip, and they’ll tell you when and where you can find a “cookie booth” nearby:

http://www.girlscoutcookies.org/

Pick up some Thin Mints for me.

Comment #22: judybrowni  on  01/16  at  12:33 PM

What is best in life?  “To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women”.  Who are my enemies?  Everyone who is not exactly like me…

Genius as usual. I was going to say something along those lines, but now I don’t have to.

Comment #23: junk science  on  01/16  at  12:36 PM

You know, I don’t give a flying fuck whether people are born gay or straight or somewhere in between.  None of my business as regards people who are Not Me. Everyone has the right to associate with whoever also wants to associate with them, and I use “associate” in the broadest possible sense here, whether or not they were “born” that way.

However.  I freaking LOVE the song “Born This Way.”  My living room windows look out into a church parking lot, and I make a point on Sunday mornings to open the windows (uh, when it is not 10 degrees out, like it has been recently) and play it on repeat when folks are arriving/departing.  I figure that it’s likely (statistically) that there’s a kid/teenager there who needs to hear it.  The idea of “fuck you, I was born this way” can be very powerful when you’re 15.

Comment #24: laurab  on  01/16  at  12:39 PM

For those outside the U.S., the official G.S. website offers the comfort of Cookie Scented Earrings!
http://www.girlscoutshop.com/gsusaonline/GSProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=COOKIE+SCENTED++2-PAIR+PIERCED+EARRING+SET

So popular you’ll need to back order, but totally worth it.

Comment #25: judybrowni  on  01/16  at  12:41 PM

While “buy cookies” is an easy answer right now, there are also other options. You can call up your local troop or council and make a donation. You can call up your local troop and ask if they have a sponsor-a-girl program for those girls who require financial aid to participate.

Comment #26: hp  on  01/16  at  12:42 PM

Junk Science - that’s a quote from Khan.  It’s a useful one.

Comment #27: helen w. h.  on  01/16  at  12:49 PM

I liked Dan Savage’s response to the “gayness is a choice” baloney: “If being gay is a choice, choose it. Be gay. Just for today - you can switch back tomorrow. Right?”

He was addressing it specifically to Herman Cain, but it applies generally. That said, the whole thing is bogus, as Amanda says. And as time goes on, anyone under an age that is currently about 30 and is only going to get higher as the years go on is simply going to stare blankly at the whole “issue.”

(As for handedness, I just wanted to point out that that stuff was more harmful than a lot of people realize: A friend of mine and my mother-in-law both stutter and were both made to write right-handed when they’re really left-handed. I’m not buying that that’s a coincidence.)

Comment #28: RickMassimo  on  01/16  at  01:03 PM

I agree that “Gays” are a manufactured “minority” used for political purposes, it’s just that its a minority manufactured by the right to deny people they don’t like their rights. Reality is simple. We’re all human and entitled as such to the same rights.

Comment #29: chuckling one  on  01/16  at  01:20 PM

It is also the case that both groups generally become aware of their status at rather young ages (about the time one is forming gender/sexual identities).

When I volunteered a couple of decades ago at a crisis hotline, there were a number of openly gay volunteers there and I remember a couple of them saying that they knew from a very early age, around 5 or 6, that there was something different about them. 

What really annoys me about these Religious Right types is that according to their own religion, everyone is a sinner, but for some reason, gays are the only sinners who can’t be allowed to serve in the military or be a foster parent.  You can beat your wife or be an adulterer and serve in the military, but if you are a gay man who has a boyfriend that he visits when he is on leave, it’s somehow a threat to national security.

Comment #30: Tommykey  on  01/16  at  01:51 PM

This one is memorable as well, helen h. w.:

God in Heaven. The Kha Khan, the
Power of God on Earth. The seal of the
Emperor of Mankind”

Comment #31: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/16  at  01:55 PM

I’m not buying that that’s a coincidence

It’s been known for sometime that there was a link between retraining and stuttering, James Blish used it as a plot point in his ST:TOS original novel, Spock Must Die!.

Comment #32: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/16  at  02:00 PM

The National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality has the real information (http://www.narth.com).

More and more Americans are learning the truth. GayScam, this fraud, will be ended. The laws will be adjusted accordingly.

—Sharon Kass Washington, D.C.

Quack psychiatry seems like an excellent racket. And it’s useful to authoritarians, too, because so few people understand psychology and yet it seems to offer easy answers to life’s problems, and can easily be altered to support any popular madness.

Comment #33: atheist  on  01/16  at  02:02 PM

The popularity of “baby preacher” and “baby worshipper” videos on youtube is due to the belief that babies comprehend ideas of God from birth.
Comment #21: Treefinger on 01/16 at 12:22 PM

Before birth, if the glurge here is any indication.  They draw their “proof” from the verse that says God knew your face before you were born (and now we can too thanks to 3-d sonograms).

Sachi
by
Dan Millman

Chicken Soup for the Soul, compiled by Canfield & Hansen, page 290

Soon after her brother was born, little Sachi began to ask her parents to leave her alone with the new baby. They worried that like most four-year-olds, she might feel jealous and want to hit or shake him, so they said no. But she showed no signs of jealousy. She treated the baby with kindness and her pleas to be left alone with him became more urgent. They decided to allow it.

Elated, she went into the baby’s room and shut the door, but it opened a crack - enough for her curious parents to peek in and listen. They saw little Sachi walk quietly up to her baby brother, put her face close to his and say quietly, “Baby, tell me what God feels like. I’m starting to forget.”

Comment #34: oldfeminist  on  01/16  at  02:03 PM

(As for handedness, I just wanted to point out that that stuff was more harmful than a lot of people realize: A friend of mine and my mother-in-law both stutter and were both made to write right-handed when they’re really left-handed. I’m not buying that that’s a coincidence.)
Comment #28: RickMassimo on 01/16 at 01:03 PM

Ask your MIL how they enforced it.

The reason I suggest this is, when I was in elementary school, I had a left-handed classmate who started out in a Catholic school.  The nuns beat her left hand (“the devil’s hand” yes literally they told her that) with a ruler to try to make her use her right hand so her dad took her out of the Catholic school and put her in public school.  This was in 1965 or 1966.

Comment #35: oldfeminist  on  01/16  at  02:10 PM

Huh, I must have clicked code instead of

quote

.

Comment #36: oldfeminist  on  01/16  at  02:11 PM

Junk Science - that’s a quote from Khan.  It’s a useful one.

Right, I meant the whole comment.

Comment #37: junk science  on  01/16  at  02:14 PM

“Baby, tell me what God feels like. I’m starting to forget.”

And then Baby vomited in Sachi’s face.

Comment #38: UncleMike  on  01/16  at  02:15 PM

“Gays” are a manufactured “minority” used for political purposes.

So I can follow the use of scarequotes around gays. This charming individual is denying they exist. But around minority? Is this person claiming that gays are in fact the majority, falsely claiming minority status to get privileges? You know, like white people and self identified christians?

Comment #39: karpad  on  01/16  at  02:39 PM

I missed Amanda’s original article, but was glad to see this here and have a chance to go back and read it. As a trans woman, it’s heartbreaking (and more than a little scary) to see just how easy it is for some people to attack and deride a seven year old. But it’s encouraging to see the vast amount of support that’s emerged in response to the vitriol, and really great to see GS of Colorado make the right choice and stick to it.

Regarding the “born this way” discussion, I can offer that I’ve always experienced my gender as fixed; I have a memory from about the age of three - the second earliest coherent memory I have of my childhood - in which I express concern about being seen and treated differently than other girls. And I came from the most typical of family circumstances…both parents present, two younger siblings, totally heternormative and cisnormative script. By contrast, my sexuality is seemingly always shifting; there are times where I can’t precisely pinpoint exactly where I “belong” (and I know for a fact my attractions are influenced by the way I experience gender; for example, a seemingly innate attraction to cis men has been pretty well quashed by the abuse inflicted upon me by them in dating situations). Regardless, neither my gender nor my sexuality really feels like a choice, and while one could be said to feel more “natural” I guess, I don’t see how that makes one more deserving of protected status than the other.

Comment #40: Renee_in_Mich  on  01/16  at  02:43 PM

#28:

I liked Dan Savage’s response to the “gayness is a choice” baloney: “If being gay is a choice, choose it. Be gay. Just for today - you can switch back tomorrow. Right?”

Well, that’s part of the thing.  It’s hard to tell someone to “think like a gay”.  From an outsider-looking-in perspective, homosexuality is easily just confused with generic horniness.  “Be gay for a day” means letting some dude plow you in the butt.  It doesn’t mean actually feeling romantically attached to someone of the same sex, because the religious wackos have painted homosexuality as this crazy perverse deviant lifestyle where no real love can exist.

And, of course, from Dan Savage’s perspective - he being in a loving-if-not-entirely-monogamous relationship for like 10-15 years now - this isn’t even something he really thinks about.  He clearly recognizes the real emotional attachment he is feeling.  Getting told “gay is a choice” doesn’t entirely register as the secret Jesus-loving code for “being gay is an unnatural and sinful mistake you have made that you need to rectify”.

:-p The two sides are just talking two different languages.  Evangelicals have to talk in code or risk looking like anti-science cavemen or amoral monsters.  So you get a bunch of euphemisms that disguise the real disgust the core of the anti-gay movement feels.

Comment #41: Zifnab  on  01/16  at  02:53 PM

Wait Amanda are you left handed?

Comment #42: MNeagle  on  01/16  at  03:26 PM

There is absolutely no question that your political affiliation is not something you are born with (though it does tend to be something you get from your parents).

You might be surprised.

Comment #43: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/16  at  03:31 PM

And as time goes on, anyone under an age that is currently about 30 and is only going to get higher as the years go on is simply going to stare blankly at the whole “issue.”

I’d actually say it’s about 40-45 that’s the leading edge. I base that on my age, and the reaction myself and many of my classmates had, after we graduated high school and moved on, when our parents would share the latest gossip and considered it important that someone we knew when younger had come out of the closet. The general reaction tended to range between “...and so what’s the news you wanted to tell me about?” to “We knew that in junior high and you’re just finding out now?” to “So?”

That’s why I was pretty confident that DADT was going to be overturned: my generation are finally reaching the senior ranks of officers and non-coms who have the ability to set policy, and the older fogies are retiring.

Comment #44: KeithM  on  01/16  at  04:18 PM

Be gay. Just for today - you can switch back tomorrow.

Uhh, haven’t many of the Republican politicians already taken him up on this? “Be gay. Just this one time in this bathroom stall/ hotel /chatroom…. You can switch back tomorrow.” “Don’t mind if I do!”

Although I certainly see Zifnab’s point that

“It’s hard to tell someone to “think like a gay”.”

I don’t get what we’re using our manufactured gays for politically, either. Are they like a militia? And why tell Amanda? What exactly would she do about it if she ‘saw the light?’ Presumably, as a prominent feminazi mover and shaker, she would be the one with the plans for the gay-bots anyhow. Makes no sense!!

And I’d forgotten about the late nineties Chicken Soup juggernaut! I’d completely forgotten, “Chicken Soup For the Teenage Soul,” was actually required reading in my high school. Oooooooooooooh, boy. Thanks for the memories.

Comment #45: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  01/16  at  05:29 PM

I definitely agree that we also need to separate “fixed” and “choice”. Sexuality is a complex thing, is the point. For those of us who largely fall within the normative range, not experiencing this ourselves is no excuse. We can open our ears and listen and voila! The evidence is in that orientation is not something reasonably understood as a “choice”.

When conservatives bandy around the word “choice”, they really don’t mean that you should choose to stop having the desires you do. They just mean you should choose the closet. That’s one reason I’m not a huge fan of the notion that people have a buffet of choices in front of them and they pick at random. Most people make the choices they do for a reason. Sure, the closet is technically a “choice”, but it’s a shitty, pointless choice that people reject because it’s crap. It’s like telling someone to “choose life” when they’re pregnant and don’t want to be. Sure, it’s physically possible, but it’s a terrible choice and they know it’s a terrible choice and often the person pushing it on them knows it’s the destructive choice. They just don’t care if you’re destroyed. They don’t care about you at all.

Comment #46: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  06:49 PM

@42: No.

But I’m a firm believer that you don’t have to experience something yourself to sympathize with what it must be like. Which is why it’s easy for me to be a full-throated queer ally, even while I have tremendous amounts of straight privilege. (Though a lot of that is due to geography and living amongst people who accept straight people who veer from the marriage-and-kids expectations.)

Comment #47: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  06:52 PM

@44 KeithM.

I’m 42 and my experience was somewhat different.  This was the 80’s, with Ronnie Reagan in the White House and the rise of the AIDS epidemic.  I was in my religious phase at the time, and I remember that AIDS was explained as being God’s judgment on homosexuals for their sinful behavior.  While I wasn’t overtly homophobic at the time, I still viewed them as some kind of “other” who had something wrong with them.

It took both losing my religion and befriending gays when I became a crisis hotline counselor that my negative views towards gays evaporated in the early 90’s.

Comment #48: Tommykey  on  01/16  at  07:34 PM

“Elated, she went into the baby’s room and shut the door, but it opened a crack-enough for her curious parents to peek in and listen. They saw little Sachi walk quietly up to her baby brother, put her face close to his and say quietly, “Baby, tell me what God feels like. I’m starting to forget.”

You know, I know this is glurge, but it actually fits in quite well with my theory about where belief in God comes from in the first place.

Humans are neotenous. Many of the traits we have that make us intelligent are because we are arrested adolescent monkeys; traits that in monkeys shut down or minimize in adulthood persist in humans. But one trait of babies that’s vital for *babies*, but doesn’t help adults any, is the belief in and need to believe in a person who loves you, is looking out for your interests, can do everything, and is basically perfect and generally speaking justified in whatever they tell you. Babies who fail to believe in pretty much anything mom and dad tell them end up dead.

Adult humans are smart enough to know their actual parents have flaws. But the neotenous craving for a belief in a perfect loving omnipotent parent doesn’t go away just because we know our actual parent doesn’t fit the bill. So humans who have not managed to grow out of their neotenous need for a perfect omnipotent parent—which is probably a large percentage of us, given that we’re overall a neotenous species—need to believe in an imaginary perfect loving omnipotent parent who lacks the flaws their actual parents have.

And thus, a four year old child who is starting to grasp the concept that her parents are people, and that they have flaws and there are things they cannot do, might well be starting to attach her need to believe in parental perfection to the imaginary God. And Baby does know what God is like. Baby lives with God every day; God changes his diapers and nurses him or feeds him a bottle. Baby has total faith in God’s love because God snuggles him and kisses him and says “Who’s the best baby?” and comes to comfort him when he cries. What Sachi knows that Baby doesn’t is that God isn’t God, God is just a human being who can’t actually do everything. What Sachi doesn’t know is the fact that Mom and Dad aren’t God does not actually mean that someone else is God.

Comment #49: Alara J Rogers  on  01/16  at  07:34 PM

It’s always, “But what about the CHILDREN?!” unless there is an actual child involved.

Comment #50: Jodi  on  01/16  at  07:45 PM

I forgot who gave the lecture where they pointed out it’s a survival instinct for a human child to unquestionably follow the directions of an adult, because not doing so can be fatal for the child. The problem is that people allow themselves to keep that mindset for no good reason when they grow older.

Comment #51: KeithM  on  01/16  at  07:49 PM

It’s always, “But what about the CHILDREN?!” unless there is an actual child involved.

Well, “what about the children?!” is generally understood to mean “what about the white, straight, Christian, middle- and upper-class, socially normative children?!”

Comment #52: Triplanetary  on  01/16  at  08:05 PM

It’s always, “But what about the CHILDREN?!” unless there is an actual child involved.

The response to this is “Stop hiding behind your kids.”

Comment #53: Smartpatrol  on  01/16  at  09:01 PM

I’m 42 and my experience was somewhat different.  This was the 80’s, with Ronnie Reagan in the White House and the rise of the AIDS epidemic.  I was in my religious phase at the time, and I remember that AIDS was explained as being God’s judgment on homosexuals for their sinful behavior.  While I wasn’t overtly homophobic at the time, I still viewed them as some kind of “other” who had something wrong with them.

Yeah, well religion screws everything up, so no shock there, and teenagers are generally stupid (goodness knows I was), so that gets a pass. I know when I was a young teen, although I didn’t do it as much as a some punk playing online today, I used “gay” as a slur and so on.

I can recall the exact moment I realized homophobia was idiotic, and I’ve mentioned this before. I was 19 years old, at a military college, and as part of a routine random security check was asked some questions about another cadet, generally about his behaviour. I realized some of the questions were designed to elicit any hints about the subject being gay, and asked why. I got the usual “Security risk for being blackmailed” answer, and at that moment realized how profoundly stupid it was: people were only a risk of being blackmailed for being gay because the military cared about them being gay. What kind of moron sets up a system that creates its own, totally unnecessary, security risks?

Once I had that realization, everything dealing with anti-homosexual bigotry just fell apart because it was obvious it made no damn sense either.

Comment #54: KeithM  on  01/16  at  09:20 PM

I knew I was homosexual when I was 6 thanks to Dale D. from next door.  This was 1966, before homosexuality officially existed, so maybe it was innate? /sarcasm

I’m now 52, I’ve never found women attractive sexually in the slightest and I’m just bone tired with having to mentally play the game of “No, I’m not a portal of evil in to this world just because I find Brandon Weeden totally gorgeous, no, I’m not going to hell because it’s all a fairytale” etc. every time I encounter loons like Sharon Kass.

Comment #55: Henry Holland  on  01/17  at  02:26 AM

teenagers are generally stupid (goodness knows I was), so that gets a pass..

For fuck’s sake - this again?  Yes, teenagers may be stupid, awkward, gawky, whatever - but that doesn’t mean they should getting a sodding pass for being bigoted.  Unless you are basically saying that teenagers who are the victims of such bigotry can just put up and shut up until the bigots magically grow out of it.

Maybe if someone had pointed out to you that using homophobic slurs was wrong and stupid and bigoted, instead of giving you a pass because you were a teenager, you might have come to your realisation before you got all the way to 19.

It’s surely not a radical proposal that if we don’t let kids get bigoted to start with (by, for example, giving them passes), then there might be a few less bigoted adults.

Comment #56: Katherine  on  01/17  at  09:08 AM

RickMassimo & KiethM - I would say the age where that happens runs from 50ish (about 5 years older than I am) to 30ish, in part due to big things like region and rural/suburb/urban and littler ones like religious affiliation and school attended.  This also clearly is only for general trends as there seem to be some much younger people who seem invested in being anti-GLBTA.

Comment #57: helen w. h.  on  01/17  at  10:31 AM

I’ve not seen any signs of younger people being invested in being anti-GLBTA around here in the heart of red California, helen.

FWIW, Tulare County, were I live and grew up many moons ago, has the highest % of gay parents in the state.  That’s because, being rural, conservative and “Real Amurikans” here, a lot of kids who are gay get married in order to please their parents and community, then later come out, after they have kids(to please their parents as well). 

BTW, I’m sure that there are more than 824 gay and lesbian couples living together in my city, let alone Tulare County.

Comment #58: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/17  at  11:14 AM

I’ve not seen any signs of younger people being invested in being anti-GLBTA around here in the heart of red California, helen.

I have, but then, I live in Georgia.

Comment #59: Triplanetary  on  01/17  at  01:04 PM

For fuck’s sake - this again?  Yes, teenagers may be stupid, awkward, gawky, whatever - but that doesn’t mean they should getting a sodding pass for being bigoted.

Katherine, I think you’re being a bit too harsh.

With my own experience at the time, I grew up in a climate where prejudice towards gays was seen as normal.  Before you can be cured, you first have to realize you are sick.  During my high school years, it didn’t occur to me that it was wrong.  The school didn’t do any consciousness raising activities designed to address homophobia.  Fortunately, I never engaged in any name calling or hostile behavior against other students for being gay. 

As the father of two school age children now, I do feel fortunate that I can pass on the wisdom I have accumulated to my children and impress upon them the need to avoid bigotry towards other kids for any reason.

Comment #60: Tommykey  on  01/17  at  01:43 PM

Nothing surprises me about Georgia anymore, I’m sorry to say.

Comment #61: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/17  at  01:44 PM

Well, Atlanta has a huge gay scene in certain areas, but that’s precisely because the rest of Georgia is so unwelcoming to them.

Comment #62: Triplanetary  on  01/17  at  02:07 PM

I think Tulare county has a high portion of gay families because gay families tend to earn less and Tulare county is cheap to live in.  It’s pretty simple, really.  It’s why my spouse and I live in a tiny town in the mountains rather than a city. (Aside from the fact that we like trees and mountains, they’re still not easy to live in.)

Comment #63: Crissa  on  01/17  at  03:00 PM

Crissa, did you even bother to read the article?

Tulare county is cheap to live in, and the same cannot be said for Kings, Fresno, Madera, etc. counties as well.

Fresno is a lot more family-friendly than Visalia(the respective county seats for Fresno and Tulare County), and if what you’re saying is true, one would expect the most couples to be in Fresno county, because it has more things for anyone to do and it would cost about as much to live near there as to live here.

What you’re doing is indulging in conformational bias, Crissa, but I’m just a guy who lived here for 18 years before going to college and have lived here for the last 20 years, so what do I know.

Comment #64: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/17  at  04:06 PM

Savage’s suggestion says it all, but I’ve always wondered: If being homosexual is a choice, why did so many choose it back when they risked being beaten or jailed for their choice? They were all masochists?

Here, I guess the concern is a boy who thinks he’s a girl would be some sort of lesbian rapist? I can’t follow those twists and turns.

On the other hand, I don’t know anything about transgender youth.  I think a boy could be effeminate and yet heterosexual, for example.

I don’t want to click on the youtube video, and make them feel more important than they are. But I did click on “honestgirlscouts” wordpress blog, to find a single post from last July 31. I suspect this was before young Ms. Montoya tried to join, so I wonder what their motivation was.

Comment #65: Hector B.  on  01/17  at  04:35 PM

On the other hand, I don’t know anything about transgender youth.  I think a boy could be effeminate and yet heterosexual, for example.

Of course he could. But despite the scare tactics of wingnuts, nobody’s rushing to convince every effeminate little boy that he’s trans or gay. Most parents who are enlightened enough to be comfortable with having a gay child are enlightened enough to let them work their gender/sexual identity out on their own.

In environments where the child is socialized with liberal, enlightened attitudes about sexuality and gender, it happens that (as is apparently the case with the girl at the center of this “controversy”) trans children often recognize their gender identity at a rather young age. Naturally, this freaks conservatives out, but conservatives are assholes like that.

In environments where gender and sexual mores are rigid and conservative, it often doesn’t occur to trans children that they’re not the gender they’ve always been told they are, because it doesn’t occur to them that that’s possible. Hence you have people like my trans friend who had been trying to figure out all her childhood why she didn’t feel like a boy, and didn’t finally accept that she was a woman until she was in college.

Comment #66: Triplanetary  on  01/17  at  05:14 PM

For all the disheartening things in the world (like that letter), it’s great to hear stories about people liberalizing here in these comments. “I used to not consider it” or “I used to think gays were evil” to “yeah, now I think they’re full people, too!” gives me some hope for humanity.

For more personal anecdotes about gay acceptance: my senior year of high school (<10 years ago) in a small midwestern town, I co-founded a gay-staight alliance with friend (we joked that he was the gay and I was the straight). All the posters we put up before school for the first meeting were torn down by lunch. The announcement lady refused to put us on the “groups meeting after school” list. Right-wingers thought it was evil, and even the “moderates” were kind of annoyed. 

But things, surprisingly, improved; it was tangibly better even by my graduation. The “don’t ask, do tell!” policy of the meetings fostered a welcoming atmosphere, and I like to think that the organization did some good in propelling the liberalization of opinions of the high school, that some people didn’t have to wait until college… to either be queer or be accepting of queer.

Comment #67: gigglesmcfee  on  01/17  at  08:45 PM

Well, Atlanta has a huge gay scene in certain areas, but that’s precisely because the rest of Georgia is so unwelcoming to them.

Atlanta, Athens, and Savannah all have substantial gay communities and you can find smaller ones in places like Valdosta or Millegeville thanks to the colleges bringing in a more diverse population. But when Helen brought up younger people who were really invested in being anti-LBGTA, the rednecks growing up in bumfuck nowhere aren’t what come to mind. It’s the James O’Keefe, middle class white kids who, thanks to the limited circles of private schools and church functions, truly believe that it is right, fair, and necessary to exert complete control over their social environments. They’ve really picked up the banner for gay bigotry in this generation because they’ve never had to learn the tolerance that comes from being powerless to change things.

Comment #68: scrumby  on  01/17  at  09:20 PM

But when Helen brought up younger people who were really invested in being anti-LBGTA, the rednecks growing up in bumfuck nowhere aren’t what come to mind. It’s the James O’Keefe, middle class white kids who, thanks to the limited circles of private schools and church functions, truly believe that it is right, fair, and necessary to exert complete control over their social environments.

And believe it or not, that’s what came to mind in my case, too. I was raised way south of Atlanta, and the entitled bigots in my school weren’t rednecks, they were privileged white church-bred kids.

Comment #69: Triplanetary  on  01/17  at  10:16 PM

Re:  Comment #64: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein on 01/17 at 04:06 PM

I did.  Those are all cheaper counties to live in.  I know, shocking, but true.  I’m not sure what your point is… Since I live where it is more expensive by choice and I think, good eye for property value.  But you could get my house for a third in any of those counties you mentioned.  And my house sold in 2007 for twice what it cost me in 2010.  The difference between here and there was only more stark a few years ago.

So yes, cost.  Period.  Your argument about gay people born there makes little to no sense.

Comment #70: Crissa  on  01/18  at  12:53 AM

“I used to not consider it” or “I used to think gays were evil” to “yeah, now I think they’re full people, too!” gives me some hope for humanity.

From my POV, the biggest reason for random straights to accept gay people was the realization that some of one’s friends and neighbors—people you liked or at least tolerated, the kind of folks that would let you borrow their rototiller or watch Bridget Jones Diary with—were in fact gay. Which relied on gay people being out and open. Coming out turned a “them” into an “us.”

Comment #71: Hector B.  on  01/18  at  01:51 AM

I’m not sure what your point is…

That, given the cultural advantages to living near Fresno, which can be done at the same cost it does to live in Tulare County, by your logic, there should be more families living in Fresno counties where they’d get more bang for their family-oriented buck, compared to, say, the city of Porterville.

But you could get my house for a third in any of those counties you mentioned.

Your argument about gay people born there makes little to no sense.

Sorry, you’ve just proven that you didn’t read the article, from the article:

“It’s not San Francisco, it’s not L.A. It’s not where we know to be very high enclaves of the gay population,” said Gary Gates, a demographer with the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law. “Child-rearing among same-sex couples is the highest in the most conservative and rural parts of the state.”

One reason same-sex couples choose to raise their children in conservative counties such as Tulare is that many same-sex couples are raising children from heterosexual relationships they had before they came out, Gates said.

After embracing their sexual orientation, many same-sex couples then choose to continue raising their children close to where the other parent lives, or to live in the place where they had already established their lives. Those considerations outweighed the challenges of living gay in a county like Tulare, which emphatically opposed same-sex marriage: In California overall, Prop. 8 passed by 52.3 percent.

“The message is clear in the Central Valley: It’s not a safe place to come out and be open,” Beasley said. “So people either leave and go to a more accepting environment, or they try to conform - and later realize that’s not their true identity.”

No, you’re right, most of these gay parents moved here to get less pay than their hetero counterparts by living in a rural area, where they face more opposition to their lifestyle.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Comment #72: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/18  at  02:45 AM

With my own experience at the time, I grew up in a climate where prejudice towards gays was seen as normal.  Before you can be cured, you first have to realize you are sick.

Yes, that would be my point.  If we keep giving teenagers “a pass”, then this is perpetuated.  How about aiming for not letting the sickness in in the first place - which, may I remind you, is not actually a sickness in the mindless virus/bacteria sense of the word, but lessons taught by society.  Let’s stop teaching those lessons - or passively allowing them to be taught by giving out passes - and determine to teach different ones, early.

And as for being harsh, how harsh is are it on LGBT youth to keep giving out passes.  Or to teenaged girls who are subjected to predatory behaviour, because teenaged boy are supposed to be beasts from which they must protect themselves.  Or BME youth who have to wait until adulthood until they can expect racism to not be “given a pass”. 

It seems in this scenario that the teenagers we want not to be harsh to - “harsh” here meaning not tolerating bigotry - are the white, straight, cis, male ones.

Comment #73: Katherine  on  01/18  at  04:52 AM

scrumby @ 68 and Triplanetary @ 69: that was who I meant.  “rednecks growing up in bumfuck nowhere” are less likely to be invested since they often hadn’t had to think about it.

Comment #74: helen w. h.  on  01/18  at  10:13 AM

For fuck’s sake - this again?  Yes, teenagers may be stupid, awkward, gawky, whatever - but that doesn’t mean they should getting a sodding pass for being bigoted.  Unless you are basically saying that teenagers who are the victims of such bigotry can just put up and shut up until the bigots magically grow out of it.

What I’m saying is that teenagers are typically a reflection of the society they’ve grown up in, and we can excuse them doing something stupid if they haven’t been taught (or learned themselves) better. That doesn’t mean that said behaviour should be considered acceptable: I’ve been hard on kids, and family members, for saying homophobic, racist, bullying, and/or sexist language, jokes, slurs, whatever, that I probably would have ignored (even if I hadn’t said it myself) when I was younger.

If someone has grown up with such malignant views and realizes what an idiot they had been, yes, I do think the adult gets a pass. If we had time travel and could go back to that when that adult was younger, the teenager at the time certainly shouldn’t.

Comment #75: KeithM  on  01/18  at  11:56 AM

Fine, but what you said was “teenagers are generally stupid (goodness kniows I was), so that gets a pass”.  I think that is dangerous, since it implies that stupidity and by extension bigotry are to be tolerated because it just happens naturally.  As far as I’m concerned, bigoted behaviour should not “get a pass”, in the sense of tolerated, if only because that leaves the victims of such bigotry in the lurch.

Comment #76: Katherine  on  01/18  at  02:46 PM

@Comment #49: Alara J Rogers on 01/16 at 06:34 PM

Real good point, there.

Comment #77: atheist  on  01/19  at  07:18 AM
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