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Next entry: Keyboards bring the end to Western Civilization Previous entry: CSA Week #13: “Don’t Fear The Squash” Edition

I expect to be writing this same post when people are discussing the 16th wave

Feminism

When I saw that Susan Faludi was tackling one of the most difficult issues in feminism to talk about—-the inter-generational power struggle, often cast (and Faludi’s piece is no exception) in “mother-daughter” terms—-I got really excited.  Faludi often has an ability to cut through bullshit and bring genuine insight to sticky problems.  A voice like that could bring a lot to a discussion that tends to end up in recriminations or denials more than it does any kind of productive discourse.  And for the first parts of her piece, I honestly thought Faludi was going in that direction.  She laid out a case that this kind of battling does exist.  She puts out evidence that younger feminists are sometimes unfair and ungrateful to older feminists, and that older feminists are sometimes so afraid of younger women that they go out of their way to exclude them, all while complaining that younger women don’t care.  She even kindly points out that this struggle owes a lot just general misunderstanding between generations, pointing out how second wavers often took swipes at their own, actual mothers for being subject to the patriarchy, even as they criticized the oppression that meant their mothers had little choice.  She gives interesting context about how this sort of thing happened even with the suffragists and their daughters—-and the media was as gleeful in the 1920s to declare feminism dead as it is now. 

But then she flies completely off the rails, attributing this divide to the same, tired, evidence-free stereotypes of bimbo daughters and harridan mothers that you always get.  The only way she updated it is by dismantling the “harridan mothers” part of the equation, sympathetically casting feminists older than her 51 years as hard-working activists being shoved out the door by ungrateful young’uns who never listen to their mothers.  And she reinforces a jumble of often conflicting stereotypes on younger feminists to discredit us: that we’re obsessed with navel-gazing over activism, that our obsession with technology comes at the expense of actual work, that we don’t know our history and don’t care about systemic issues, that we’re materialist and unwilling to challenge sexual exploitation for fear of pissing off men, that we’re so busy cultivating our graduate degrees writing about Lady Gaga (using academic language that excludes most readers even as we have pretensions to pop culture appeal) that we can’t be bothered to worry about real world issues.  She ends the story on a sad note, talking to a professor whose job teaching feminism has been cut as the entire women’s studies department at her school is being shuttered.  The professor tried to include hip young writers on her syllabus, but her students treated her like an old bag anyway.  Faludi implies that this struggle is why the department itself has gone under. 

I was floored that these are the conclusions Faludi came to, even after she honestly notes up front that she has repeatedly seen situations where older feminists literally shut young women out of the conversation and then complain that young women don’t care.  Stereotyping is a form of silencing—-she’s doing it herself, even as she criticizes it (though far more gently than she does the younger women for being impertinent).  I realize that a story that claims there are major priority and aesthetic differences between the generations is sexier than a story that posits that this is just the same old power struggle between young and old, but it’s less honest.  Faludi admits that there was way more diversity in the second wave than is usually talked about, but then she drops that point and instead chases after a story that pitches hard-working activist elders against navel-gazing materialist youth.

Materialism is a big theme of the article.  Younger feminists are supposedly all about it, and that makes us stupid heads or something.  We love our high heels and lipstick and love to defend them, and that somehow means that we’re insufficiently anti-capitalist, in supposed contrast to our elders.  (Never mind that some second wave feminists defended women against black and white anti-materialist ideology that has more than a hint of misogyny to it with its focus on consumer products mainly purchased by women.)  That doesn’t resemble the younger feminists that I know!  Many of us have walked exactly the path that Faludi denies we even see, starting with an analysis of how women’s bodies are commodified to joining up with critiques of capitalism—-that’s why you have environmentalist feminists, animal rights feminists, etc.  That some feminists are enamored of Lady Gaga doesn’t mean they’re incapable of holding BP accountable for the oil spill, you know?


As a perfect example of how Faludi’s critique is incoherent is the discussion of body image.  Young feminists are obsessed with body image, and this makes us very silly and self-absorbed.  We’re so worried that we’re not living up to some beauty ideal that it eats up all our mental energies we could be dedicating to overturning the capitalist patriarchy.  Except, of course, that the writing about body image issues is a very specific assault on the capitalist patriarchy.  Critiquing photoshopped images in magazines that make women feel like shit is a perfect encapsulation of the analysis that explains how capitalism and patriarchy work together: 1) Women are tasked with the patriarchal job of existing to please men 2) Part of our job duties is to always be striving to be better sex objects 3) Magazines set the standards impossibly high with technology to 4) Provoke anxieties that drive up sales of products.  My main distaste for obsessing over this subject is that it’s kind of 101 and the realities are more complicated and nuanced that the analysis I laid out.  But the feminist writers who do dwell on this subject do so in specific publications aimed at younger women for a specific purpose, which is that the appeal and immediate coherence of this analysis is the perfect gateway drug to feminism.  Those on the ground doing the work of bringing young women in know from experience that this is true; nothing gets them like talking about how unfair it is that they’re bombarded with pictures of literally impossibly perfect asses, and made to feel bad because they can’t defy nature (and neither can a photoshopped Scarlett Johannson).  Once they’re in the door, you can start talking about more uncomfortable stuff, like how widespread the notion is that women aren’t human beings (and therefore are suitable objects for violent torture).  Needless to say, I think the fact that blogs like Jezebel take the time to hold men (and women) accountable for participating in a widespread misogynist assault on a teenager is a good example of how the younger generations are, in fact, willing to protest sexual exploitation.  Even if it makes some men uncomfortable. 

I don’t think the battles that erupt between older and younger feminists have anything to do with deep differences in outlook.  Most of the ones that are cited are overblown.  The fact that analysis about gender in terms of race, class, and sexual orientation has gotten more complex over time has more to do with the movement as a whole learning from experience than it does some moral superiority of younger women.  The notion that the second wave had so much to worry about they couldn’t take the time to fight over lipstick or boyfriends is belied by their actual histories.  The notion that third wavers are stuck behind their computers and never do any activism work is also a lie; any interaction with the actual activist community will demonstrate that the same young women are making coffee, organizing events, and making phone calls as there ever were.  Sure, there are some (ahem) who spend most of our time writing, but that’s how it always was.  Feminism has always had women with different talents putting them to different uses.  Some of us are organizers.  Some of us are writers.  That was true in the 70s and it’s true now.  There are only so many hours in the day. That’s why team work is so valuable.  I’m intensely grateful to the women who do the often unseen work of organizing, which I don’t have the skill or bandwidth to do.  But on the flip side, they’re often so incredibly kind to me as well.  We all do our part.

All generations had their comedians and their earnest wet blankets.  All generations have their down-to-earth pragmatics and their hysterics.  All generations have their liberals and their radicals.  All generations have some women who focus on reproductive rights, some who focus on violence against women, and some who focus on economics.  All generations have feminists who believe feminism is inseparable from dismantling capitalism and gender as a concept, and feminists who are interested solely in simply expanding the opportunities men have to women without changing much else about society. 

None of this means that the inter-generational struggle isn’t real, and that there isn’t hurt on all sides.  Faludi makes this case, and I’ve seen it with my own eyes. But I think the causes are more mundane than dramatic differences in outlook between generations.  I think women are basically like men have always been.  We struggle for power…..because we struggle for power.  Just like with men, older women are often so busy doing their thing they lose track of the changing times and get left behind.  Just like with men, younger women sometimes are overexcitable and egotistical.  Older people are worried, for good reasons, that our ageist society will push them out.  Older people, for less honorable reasons, think they should be able to rest on their laurels a little bit and dismiss the opinions of younger people, who they see as less experienced and therefore uninteresting.  Young people can be stubborn and not willing to learn from the experiences of their elders.  Everyone’s self-interest gets in the way of communication. 

But that doesn’t mean we have dramatic differences.  In my experience, dialogue is perfectly possible in situations where said self-interest is removed from the equation.  I talk to women older than myself all the time, and I feel like everyone has a good time and learns from it.  I see a lot of young feminists who work cheerfully under the leadership of older women, and I see many older women who aren’t about to let the times pass them by.  There’s more of this going on than you’d think.  It’s just that battles erupt around the same concerns that old and young have always had, which is that older people want to protect their turf and younger people want to lay claim to it.  And that’s always going to create strife.  I don’t know why we expect women to be any different than men in this regard.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:59 AM • (157) Comments

Fairly or not, having watched the tension between the baby boomers and silent generation feminists, I tend to boil it down to one simple thing:

The baby boom was huge, considered itself the sin qua non of everything, and doesn’t want to give up power or acknowledge the needs of any other generation except their own.

Feminism is no exception to this behavior.

Comment #1: Ms Kate  on  09/20  at  11:41 AM

I might also add that feminism isn’t the only area of activism where I’ve witness this sort of generational dynamic, either - baby boom activists built on the risky pioneering work of outcast members of the silent generation who dared break ranks with the status quo, only to turn their backs on their issues and concerns as “irrelevant” and then become dismissive and patronizing to younger people until they tuned out and turned off.

Comment #2: Ms Kate  on  09/20  at  11:45 AM

I don’t know, I still think the capitalist patriarchy looks relatively unassaulted-upon.

Comment #3: norbizness  on  09/20  at  11:53 AM

What’s funny is that the boomers are rolled up into the second wave, and no one is talking about the fact that the “second wave” was, in itself, a multi-generational effort.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  11:58 AM

Exactly, norbiz.  I get so frustrated that people get swept up into blowing this shit out of proportion, and we forget that on the whole we’re all friends and allies.  There are power struggles, but what I mostly see is people working together.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  12:00 PM

Not so sure about that Amanda - I watched as girls like me were condescended to as “not knowing what was best for us so just shut up” and women like my mother and even my boyfriend’s heavily active mother were marginalized when they tried to make the movement more about issues of women who were parenting and often recently divorced thrown into a hostile workforce rather than professional careers.

I saw the dynamic at work.  It was “with us or against us” and I think it went a long way toward alienating women who weren’t well educated, weren’t in high powered careers, etc.  Assaulting the glass ceiling and having women political candidates doesn’t mean much when you are paid poorly, penalized for caregiving, and trying to keep food on the table.  In the trailer courts, you could hear that dissent - what are these crazy women doing for ME?  And the answer was “we are trying to raise these issues, but we’ve been pushed aside”.

Comment #6: Ms Kate  on  09/20  at  12:03 PM

Note that this was the reality on the working-class ground of the west coast - it might not appear in books about the movement because those women didn’t write those books.

Comment #7: Ms Kate  on  09/20  at  12:05 PM

i love the way Comment #1 starts off by bashing older activists. grin

Comment #8: lifelongactivist  on  09/20  at  12:20 PM

What are you not sure about?  I don’t doubt that older women have always condescended to younger women, and younger women have always been impatient with older women.  The point is that this is a dynamic of age, not a matter of deeper differences.  There might have been tension between the Silent Gen and Boomers in the day, but now they’re being rolled up into one group, and the tension is between them and the Gen Xers/Millenials on the other side.  And I imagine that Gen Xers will soon be painted as the sex-hating harridans, or even called “second wave”, even though we *all* were born after it took off.

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  12:23 PM

I realize that a story that claims there are major priority and aesthetic differences between the generations is sexier than a story that posits that this is just the same old power struggle between young and old, but it’s less honest.

Thank you. I get so frustrated sometimes because our media culture thrives on creating division where there is none, and competition where it serves no purpose. People get attracted to the narcissism of small differences that they are given, and refuse to look at the much simpler, better and more universal explanation you have offered: there’s an inherent struggle between young and old.

Of course one can point out differences between “the baby boomers” and “the Generation X”, but what is obvious when you step back a little bit is that these differences are nothing more than the accretions of random happenstance. Maybe your mother grew up as part of a large boom of people who happened to be born at the same time and were considered “second wave”. Maybe you were born during a time of relatively few babies and you are considered “third wave”. The important thing is that the differences between you are relatively shallow, and you are both aiming for basically the same thing: freeing women.

Comment #10: atheist  on  09/20  at  12:27 PM

I love the way comment #8 didn’t notice that older activists were well defended - the Silent Generation leaders.

Comment #11: Ms Kate  on  09/20  at  12:31 PM

I wonder if it’s technological, too… she probably had to analog-research and view hundreds of hours of (taped) television to come up with a lot of the material for Backlash (i.e. original research), where today the inherent themelessness of comment-on-everything-the-instant-it-happens blogs doesn’t lend itself to theory-building. Unless you actually take the time, like Amanda, to actually remind people.

Else it devolves into the purely personal-is-political; i.e. “if I enjoy it, it’s either feminist or a guilty pleasure, but not anti-feminist.”

Comment #12: norbizness  on  09/20  at  12:35 PM

Comment #9 - good point.  The problem wasn’t just one of age though - it was also one of class and geography, of women rejecting a projection of feminism - or even a larger construction of feminism - that held nothing for them.  It is also a problem that the Mama Andregg’s of the world, the working class local feminist leaders who worked blue-collar jobs by day and tried to inject those issues were pushed aside for a different sort of agenda.  That agenda was really a trickle-down agenda to them - it would all be fixed when we got enough women into boardrooms, backrooms, and congressional seats was the reply.

It is a different perspective, but one that I lived and witnessed and not exactly from neutral ground.  It is also a perspective that I find very sorely lacking in much of the history of feminism - it is easy to blame the media for women rejecting the broader agenda, but some of the blame must be laid on the classism and generational bullshit and geographic concentration of power in the movement that left many struggling women feel marginalized.

Comment #13: Ms Kate  on  09/20  at  12:39 PM

“I saw the dynamic at work.  It was “with us or against us” and I think it went a long way toward alienating women who weren’t well educated, weren’t in high powered careers, etc.  Assaulting the glass ceiling and having women political candidates doesn’t mean much when you are paid poorly, penalized for caregiving, and trying to keep food on the table.”

Class differences would seem to be an important factor in conflict between feminists, and is probably under-emphasized, just as those same class differences are under-emphasized in most other aspects of human existence.

My mother is someone I would consider to be a feminist, having worked most of her life, having raised two daughters who are both pretty progressive and supportive of feminist issues.  But I’m sure she’s never thought of herself as a feminist (even as she has been supportive of women’s equality in most circumstances), and I think a lot of that is because of her class. 

She took a couple semesters of college, but left to get married.  She and my dad struggled with economic instability for most of their married lives, and she has never managed any more than a working class existence.  Add in the stereotypical Worn-On-Her-Shirtsleeve-Feminist (a somewhat milder but no less corrosive version of Limpball’s FemiNazi, who has always been more straw than substance), and she never saw herself in feminist women, and had a hard time relating to many of their concerns.

So I think there was/is a certain amount of tension there that is not just age-related, but also heavily related to economic status, IMHO…

Comment #14: MikeEss  on  09/20  at  12:47 PM

Agreeing with Ms Kate @13.  Of course, I was living a similar life at a similar time not far north of her.  The main difference was that my mother was in college (yet again) when she divorced and managed to stay there and keep us fed (barely) with grants and loans and welfare when my father turned deadbeat for a few years (at which point the state would sue him for support) long enough to get a BA, MEd and teaching cert so as to enter the bottom of the professional class.

Comment #15: helen w. h.  on  09/20  at  01:00 PM

Its interesting how this post reminds folks of class issues, and money issues. I wonder if there is something inherent in our class system that makes young and old seem more divided?

Comment #16: atheist  on  09/20  at  01:04 PM

Reminds me of the course I took (in 1987) called ‘mothers & daughters’—the woman running it that term was in the psych dept., and she refused to believe that I didn’t have major Mom issues (didn’t; it was Dad that I had issues with then). I managed to rewrite that particular assignment to her satisfaction, turning an annoyance into An Issue, but it was perfectly clear that there was only one model of motherhood/daughterhood acknowledged in her class (I took it later with a lit. professor, & that was worth the 1.5 credits).

Although I generally think way too much attention is given to the Generation thing, I think enough people (especially boomers) buy into it that it’s turned into a kind of reality—Boomer-hood is taken as the norm, and any differences/exceptions in/with the other generations are flaws on their part, to be resolved by someone else.  Though some of that might just be the media’s ‘perpetual now’ of Boomer-ness.

(can’t read the original article without a subscription, which I really should get around to buying one of these days.)

Comment #17: TiaRachel  on  09/20  at  01:06 PM

I wonder if there is something inherent in our class system that makes young and old seem more divided?

The first rule of our class system is that we pretend that there is no class system in America, and that the divisions among us are always due to other causes. So, yes.

Comment #18: weirdnoise  on  09/20  at  01:14 PM

I am a rather outspoken generation x feminist - third wave and unwilling to accept “feminist” as a dirty word.  My mother was a bona fide, organizing second wave movement feminist. She honestly believes, however, that the movement was about economic parity, and that it failed because women do not now have the choice to go to work or to stay home and raise children. (Try unpacking _that_ statement!) She believes that same-sex marriage should remain illegal because, for women of her age, they may be dependent on social security payments from their husbands. Never mind that for women of my age, we have no such expectation of future support and we might want to marry our girlfriends, or that there is no actual threat to social security from even federal extension of same-sex marriage benefits. She believes that the concerns of black women should be aligned with those of white women (i.e. her own), and that the civil rights movement is now over and parity has been reached. In short, it’s not a generational or “wave” difference that stands between us, it’s serious issues of fundamental belief about the meaning of feminism and what it is intended to accomplish, as well as who is included, and how successful previous efforts have been.  It’s not that I’m too materialist (in fact, she’s substantially more materialist than I am) or that she’s an old harridan or that I’m a silly little cow who only thinks about pleasing the mens.  I can’t really say that’s either of our faults, per se, it’s just a difference in Weltanschaaung. Neither of us can get past it (being actual mother and daughter, there is of course more to it than that), but it would be nice if one of the feminist community’s leading lights didn’t perpetuate a dichotomy of difference that doesn’t really exist.

Comment #19: katydid  on  09/20  at  01:16 PM

Oh, and I really should add: one of the reasons my Mom Issues rarely rise above the level of annoyance is that she’s a feminist, did the whole consciousness-raising thing in the 70s & all, so she in general approaches our relationship with a certain self-awareness she might otherwise lack.

Comment #20: TiaRachel  on  09/20  at  01:19 PM

I wonder if there is something inherent in our class system that makes young and old seem more divided?

The old are more economically secure. People are paid more for their experience, so many of the older generation are taking home bigger paychecks (and these days the young are unable to find work at all). Kids are enormously expensive, and older people are more likely to have grown children who are no longer dependants. And the elderly have the lowest rate of poverty in the country, because of Social Security and Medicare.

Comment #21: rivki  on  09/20  at  01:30 PM

I would add to rivki’s list that those who are older don’t necessarily see all the ways the world has changed since they were in the position of those younger, though they are often the cause of that change, so don’t understand why “kids these days don’t do what we did”. 
Want a really clear example of this?  My fil complained about a granddaughter in HS not having a job and needing to be driven around to get places, completely missing that she lived in a state with extreme limits placed on teen workers (outside of family member-owned and agricultural enterprises), with a minimum driver’s permit age of 16 and longer school days. 
All those changes were by laws for the kids’ well being, of course, but making it so, no, they can’t just go get a job at 16 and save enough in two years to pay their own way to college (not that that was feasible for most people anyway, most kids I knew worked to add to the family income).

Comment #22: helen w. h.  on  09/20  at  01:57 PM

I don’t know, in reading the comments, I guess I am confused.  Third-wave feminists avoid the academic-speak and class exclusion of second-wavers?  That is the impression I am getting.  In which case, none of you have ever posted at one of the biggest feminist blogs, obviously not Jezebel.  (the only site mentioned in Amanda’s original piece).

At 42 I don’t feel as if I am naturally aligned with either generation.  Jezebel always feels too young for me, Feministing feels as if I am walking on eggshells, and Pandagon has always felt just right.

Definitely, out in the trenches, we all work together.  Having recently become involved with NYAAF, I see that more and more.  A lot of this gets all bullshitted up on the internet too, because it’s really hard to get a feel for tone and expression.

Comment #23: JennyLI  on  09/20  at  01:58 PM

Also, love the kitten-cat picture.

Comment #24: helen w. h.  on  09/20  at  01:59 PM

Katydid, that’s your mom.  I am in no way discounting your experiences, but I feel as if that is being projected onto all second waivers.  I know many white women 50 and up who in no way believe that racial parity has been in any way achieved.

Comment #25: JennyLI  on  09/20  at  02:01 PM

Rivki,. your post is a bit dated. 

Check out the front page story at the NY times today, and get a real feel for what is actually going on among the 50 and over generation today.

They are fucked.  As in F.U.C.K.E.D.

Let’s not split ourselves up as:  Older people have a lot of money, younger people have no jobs.

That is simply flat out no longer true.

Comment #26: JennyLI  on  09/20  at  02:03 PM

It’s like I always say when I’m having the “feminazi is a useful word” debate: some feminists are assholes, but so are most people. The whole idea of good feminist/bad feminist is a game no one wins.

Comment #27: Cola82  on  09/20  at  02:04 PM

Am I the only person to have never experienced this older feminist versus younger feminist dynamic? I’ve never even met a woman willing to self-identify as feminist.

Comment #28: Betsy Smith  on  09/20  at  02:08 PM

Let’s not split ourselves up as:  Older people have a lot of money, younger people have no jobs.

While I agree that the last few years have screwed over many older workers, they’re still more employed than younger workers. The NYTimes article cites the unemployment rate for workers 55 and older as 7.3 percent, which is well below the national rate. I know that the economic crisis has been devastating for everyone, but it’s frankly sad that the only age cohort whose poverty rates have declined are those who are old enough to qualify for Social Security/Medicare (mostly it’s sad because 20% of children live in poverty).

I don’t think that this has to be an issue that causes strife between generations, so long as everyone recognizes that safety net programs are both effective and necessary and should be extended to more of our citizens.

Comment #29: rivki  on  09/20  at  02:22 PM

Am I the only person to have never experienced this older feminist versus younger feminist dynamic? I’ve never even met a woman willing to self-identify as feminist.

I haven’t. And I know lots of feminists. Then again, it helps that many of the feminists I know came from my all-women’s college and the reproductive rights group at my law school. And my knitting friends, actually, who are generally a bit older than me.

Comment #30: rivki  on  09/20  at  02:25 PM

Angl, Faludi accuses third wavers of being all so enamored of their elaborate academic writings about Lady Gaga that we have no connection to the real world.  And yes, I see that as directly contradicting complaints about blogs being too mainstream and using accessible topics like body image for recruiting.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  02:27 PM

Since my mom was not a feminist in name (though often in action because she was stubborn and smart) this definitely isn’t a mother-daughter issue for me.

More and more, I’m thinking it is tied to class and race.  The preeminent voices are still white, well-off women (some academic, some not) and while I do see some disconnect in terms of age (getting older organizations to use Teh Twitter for example) I see much more in terms of class and race. I experience only one of those—my blue-collar background. But of course in this country, race issue are class issues too, and addressing class inequality would do much to address racial inequality.

My best guess is that age makes you tend to cling to what you’ve struggled for and be less open to risking it all to overturn a system in which you are comfortable.

I don’t know the answer, but I think it would help if some feminist conferences/actions by the larger groups took place outside of DC and New York, so that middle American feminists could participate—and included at least some activities and meetings that were free.

It would help a lot more than the constant donation requests I get in my email box, I can tell you that.

Comment #32: emjaybee  on  09/20  at  02:29 PM

Am I the only person to have never experienced this older feminist versus younger feminist dynamic?

In activist and writing circles, it’s a major, major issue.  Particularly in reproductive rights circles, you see a lot of older women grousing that young women don’t care, and then they turn around and don’t talk to us.  The Netroots Nation repo rights panel was a pretty classic example.  It had a lot of great women on it, but not a single woman under 40.  They could have invited, you know, me, but they didn’t.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  02:43 PM

Yes but Rivki, there is a big gap between 50, when you now become basically unemployable in this economy, and 65, when your social safety net kicks in.

I think that everyone is suffering.

Ironically, the people suffering the least (other than the flat-out rich of course) are probably the vast majority of the teapartiers, who from appearances at least, ARE getting socialized federal pensions and socialized medical care.

Comment #34: JennyLI  on  09/20  at  02:50 PM

Amanda, I will have to read her article (tonight), I was responding to some comments here that I read, trying to understand what people here were saying.  I have yet to come across any elaborate academic writings about Lady Gaga, I thought that was a joke.

Comment #35: JennyLI  on  09/20  at  03:00 PM

Amanda: Fantastic post.  I have nothing to add, but it got at some things that had been bugging me.

AnglScarlett: <a >Not a joke, in fact.</a>

Comment #36: Dustin L  on  09/20  at  03:10 PM

Link fail, but you can copy/paste.

Comment #37: Dustin L  on  09/20  at  03:10 PM

“the preeminent voices are still white, well-off women”

Yeah, I don’t think feminism has ever broken out of that and I’m not sure why.  I just read Christine Stansell’s history of feminism and I think it gave the best in-depth explanation of the earlier split between black women and white women in american feminism, but it still doesn’t explain today.

I think that when you are a person of privilege, it’s hard to speak to the disenfranchised.  I’m pretty privileged and even I have been taken back at times by some of the unthinkingly blase shit I have seen.  But this is something we all struggle with.  In the peace movement I knew so many activists ,many of whom were outright assholes to be frank, who were so unthinking in their privilege that they would reguarly schedule demonstrations and actions at 3 in the afternoon.  WTF? 

I would hate to see the egotism that blew up a lot of the peace movement do the same to feminism, but I don’t think it’s going to go that far.  Sometimes, I really think that everybody just needs a space to vent out in.  ANd for none of it to be taken personal.

Comment #38: JennyLI  on  09/20  at  03:12 PM

Ha, that’s what YOU think.  I cannot copy and paste on this site, it goes nuts and copies the entire blog.  It drives me crazy. 

But I can google that.

Comment #39: JennyLI  on  09/20  at  03:14 PM

I wonder if there is something inherent in our class system that makes young and old seem more divided?

Funny you should mention that.  I was just talking to an uncle-in-law who worked 20 years for a corporation, then took a loan for $50K from his 401K to buy up some undeveloped land in northern Dallas, sold the land a couple years later for $200K after the expansion wave came along, paid his 401K back, and then had some capital with which to start his own real estate business plus day trading.  He goes on and on about how no one should work for someone else and don’t be afraid of debt (even up to $1.5 million) because that’s the only way to “take risks” and make it big.

I had to tell him that my 401K would match at 50%, not 100% like his used to, and then only up to 7% of my salary, and I can’t just take out money from my 401K like he could (different terms) unless I was separated from the company.  Also, his company contributed some free money to his 401K even when he didn’t; I have yet to work at a company that would do so.  I’ve also got lots of school debt locked at 6% interest (good luck finding an investment that can consistently beat that) and no capital to start anything new, plus I have no pension and my health care plan is absolute crap not much better than the “high risk pool” my mom is stuck in.  Furthermore, had I put anything into 401K or stocks when I first graduated with my BS it would have been lost in the crash of 2001, and had I put anything in after I got my MS it would have been lost in the crash of 2008.

So yeah, the screws have really been tightened on Gen X and younger.  Not that I hate the Boomers and older, I just wish the opportunities some of them enjoyed were still around for the rest of us.  I dread the day I have the conversation with a nephew and he tells me that he is losing that day’s pay to visit the family because no one is offering paid time off anymore, and he is very seriously considering donating one kidney to help pay off his college debt, but he needs to save up for a few years to be able to afford some private insurance in case the surgery goes bad.

Comment #40: boring old dude  on  09/20  at  03:18 PM

If you’re googling, look for “Gaga Stigmata.”  But I’ll go ahead and try again.

Comment #41: Dustin L  on  09/20  at  03:20 PM

Thanks again for calling attention to this.

I have a serious problem with the “wave” categorization, and it’s clear that its very inception takes a very narrow view of the experience of human time. The only point of the categorization is to invent generational conflict among currently living people.

Why am I so certain? Because of how the “First Wave” is categorized.

Somehow all the generations and individual experiences of 150 years of women’s progress gets bundled up into a set of saintly statuettes, placed in a museum to venerate, but largely not thought about. The wave model does nothing toward the study of those experiences. It’s dead women on a pedestal, and everyone has to feel bad for not living up to their beatified standards.

Well, the bluestockings-through-the-suffragettes had their generations and ugly skirmishes too. Studying them tends to tie one into a larger history…which can be empowering enough to frighten Texas schoolbook manufacturers and those that feed them.

If we were counting with any degree of honest assessment, we’d be past the 100th wave by now. Time to call in the red herring on this frame.

Comment #42: Yamara  on  09/20  at  03:30 PM

One thing I find is that people seem to have no memories and no imagination.  Each one of us (at least if we are lucky) will be young, old and everything in between.  Those people who are earning more at 55 with their kids out of the house still had to struggle to find jobs in their 20’s, live on that money, pay for their kids and their kids colleges, etc.  Life isn’t static.  It’s stupid to only concentrate on the age you are at the time.  It’s a guarantee that you will always be at war with other generations, instead of working together. 

Nothing wrong at 50 or 20 with helping a woman of 35 through her “caring for baby” years without bitching about tax breaks for children or day care.  Nor is there anything wrong with 20 and 35 yo women supporting medicare- keep supporting it, and it WILL be there when you need it.  Same with the older people supporting low cost college loans, etc. Go ahead- pay taxes knowing it supports schools, and that nothing makes life work more smoothly than a well educated populace.  If we don’t spend so much time worrying about our differences at this very moment, maybe we can see that over the course of our lives, we have more in common than we thought.

Comment #43: drachonfire  on  09/20  at  03:32 PM

I wouldn’t call this elaborate:

I feel this even more when by happenchance I took a look at a provocative YouTube video of the hit song ‘Telephone’ by Lady Gaga with Beyoncé. Within minutes of it being released it had over half a million hits, a week later it is in the millions. It tells the tale of the two famous singer/dancers playing at being totally empowered sexy lesbian murderers in a take off of Tarantino and Thelma and Louise. It is mainstream pop culture, with icons of tough, tattooed women, celebrating sexuality, lesbianism and modern high tech. It’s all there, along with the brand name products.

Comment #44: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/20  at  03:35 PM

Feminists in the older generation are a smaller group which defined feminism in a certain way, and stayed “official feminists,” while the younger generation is wider. 

Furthermore, academic feminism wrote the feminist history books, so it’s going to reflect the values of those who stayed in academia, which will be overwhelmingly white and upper class.

I recall as a young feminist reading a very wide range of opinion, which you hear represented as something the “second wave” doesn’t care about, when women who are lumped into the second wave did and, more importantly, still do care about.  They’re just not well represented by movement leaders or in textbooks.

Comment #45: oldfeminist  on  09/20  at  03:49 PM

Sigh, not one comment in, before the ritual Boomer Punching began.

As reflexive as the Right and Conservadems’ Hippie Punching, and as based on stereotype, gross generalizations, or the one older feminist you know.

As for me, I was thrilled to find the new young feminist blogs and a new generation of feminists.

Less thrilled by being regularly assaulted for the supposed sins of my generation, even in a thread to a piece in which Amanda has called feminist generational Boomer Punching the bunk.

Before I can write comments to Amanda’s piece, I have to—yet again—deflect the same old tired generalizations and accusations.

For one: I was there in the ‘70s and one of the issues I saw feminists involved in was opening up opportunities for working class women out of the Pink Collar ghetto into the better paying and more secure Blue Collar (then nearly all-male) and unionized work. Work that opened up those more secure, better paid jobs to white, black, Hispanic, or whatever other group of women the Second Wave feminists supposedly ignored.

Amanda, one of the reasons you might not have been as welcome on a reproductive rights panel with older femninists: I remember being shocked at how short sighted was your seeming blase acceptance of the new health insurance reform that will eradicate all abortion coverage, even for women who already have that coverage, through private plans they pay for out of their own pocket.

(And yesssss, the new plans are likely to eradicate all abortion coverage in private plans: in red states where those rules already apply, insurance companies don’t offer side plans for a separate check, they don’t offer abortion coverage at all.)

Instead of seeing this as yet another assault on reproductive rights that chips away at the availibility to those rights, you shrugged it off, writing something to the effect that since abortion is a rare event it wasn’t that big a deal that women would have to pony up the cash.

Well, I’m sure it wasn’t phrased that cavalierly, but that was the basic import, overlooking the longterm assault on reproductive rights and even the individual difficulty for women in this underemployed age in trying to find the cash for something sorely needed in the moment.

And that’s my big problem with the younger feminists who sometimes seem to buy into the memes of the patriarchy because that’s been their only reality, they haven’t lived through the long picture—whether it’s that second wave feminists somehow snubbed women of color, or that whatever new assault chipping away at reproductive rights, is no big deal.

Oh, and as for “older” people better off in this economy: yeah, maybe the so-called Greatest Generation, who retired after long careers with a mortgage free-home, Social Security and a pension.

Ya’d think your Boomer Punching might be satisfied by my generations plight: not only underemployed, but our employers long ago eradicated pensions, whatever savings we had has been depleted by either the Stock Market crash or long-term unemployment, and we’ve lost or about to lose our homes, all at a time when we’re neither young nor healthy enough to make up for those losses.

Abortion isn’t an issue that affects us personally after menopause, yet we fight on for your right to reproductive freedom.

It’s rumored that the slashing of Social Security won’t affect those over 60—and yet we fight this assault against your future.

So enough with the Boomer Punching already—please direct your fists where they should be and would have the best effect, at the Patriarchy and the class system that promotes fights between us in order to divide us and deflect us away from seeing who’s actually pulling the strings, financially and otherwise.

Comment #46: judybrowni  on  09/20  at  03:55 PM

I was going to make an argument about the speeches and interviews given by the white, second wave feminists (particularly how I think it’s a bit unfair to paint them all as a bunch of racist club-housers) but it looks like YouTube has scrubbed a lot of the old press conference/rally/speeches from the 60s and 70s featuring particular well-known second wavers. So while I can’t actually back this up with links, I just want to point out that having watched a bunch of these, I know that the news media wanted to focus on the hot piece of ass white women, but the white women were pretty good about trying to use their visibility to raise the visibility of the plight of women of color.

Comment #47: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/20  at  04:03 PM

I’m feeling very oppressed because I earned my degree writing papers about MADONNA and no one cares about her anymore no thanks to this upstart Gaga.

I mean, really: is there anyone out there who thinks any Gaga single holds a candle to “Into the Groove”?  Prove me wrong, fourth (or is it fifth now?) wavers!

Comment #48: Radicalhw  on  09/20  at  04:04 PM

The NYTimes article cites the unemployment rate for workers 55 and older as 7.3 percent, which is well below the national rate.
Comment #29: rivki on 09/20 at 01:22 PM

If this is like every other unemployment statistic I’ve seen, people who couldn’t get a job after 6 months aren’t counted any more.  Employers don’t want to hire someone who could have health problems and is more aware of the tricks that get played on employees.  In technology, employers also don’t want to train an older employee when a younger one comes in already knowing the latest stuff.

People who quit looking aren’t counted any more.  Older people might give up even before that six months because they decide to retire on that tiny pension rather than go through what they see their friends going through just to get no job anyway.

Comment #49: oldfeminist  on  09/20  at  04:12 PM

Thanks, Mighty Ponygirl.

That backs up my memories of the period.

Comment #50: judybrowni  on  09/20  at  04:13 PM

Yes, I agree, old feminist, with one exception—what pension, tiny or otherwise?

Comment #51: judybrowni  on  09/20  at  04:14 PM

TiaRachel @ 17, really insightful about the models of mother/daughter relationships. When any interaction between older and younger women is stereotyped as the kind of mother vs. daughter power struggle that happens in adolescence—and that’s the only kind of relationship that anyone can conceive of—it’s limiting and damaging.

My own Boomer mother and I, while we went through the usual adolescent power struggle phase, never took feminism as a battleground in that phase. And we’re long past that phase anyway. These days, we do a lot of talking about feminism and other activism, and both of us listen and learn from each other’s different experiences and perspectives. Yes, in some ways we do have different feminisms, but they’re not in opposition. Our feminisms can and do inform each other. 

While we’re still mother and daughter—she still wants to protect me, and I still go to her for support and guidance when I don’t know what to do—we also respect each other as adult equals, especially when it comes to feminism. When we disagree, we don’t think “stupid naive teenybopper” or “irrelevant old bag.” Instead, it’s a question of “Why do you see it that way?” and we’ll both end up learning something from that conversation, even if neither of us changes her mind.

If you want a mother-daughter model for intergenerational feminism, how about a model of love, trust, and forgiveness between family members?

Comment #52: snowmentality  on  09/20  at  04:28 PM

The “body image” stuff is particularly weird coming from Faludi. When I was in college, THE two big selling feminist books, which came out within months of each other, were “Backlash” and “The Beauty Myth”. Faludi and Wolf were booked on panels and programs together. Plus, Faludi had a wonderful chapter in her own book about Victoria’s Secret.

It isn’t like feminist concern about body image issues suddenly popped up when Generation Y came of age.

Comment #53: Dilan Esper  on  09/20  at  04:29 PM

I sort of wonder it the Baby Boomer generation is particularly prone to this sort of divide. It seems to me that older generations were always uptight and confused about the boomers and there is a lot of animosity between gen x and the boomers and even between older boomers and younger boomers, but I just don’t see that sort of fighting between X and Y. I am a millenial or gen Y or whatever and it seems like most people my age just sort of accept that Gen X was cool and badass while my generation is fat kids with participant ribbons. It could just be that Y hasn’t found its voice yet or something, but maybe things will get better?

Comment #54: alysia  on  09/20  at  04:30 PM

@Comment #38: AnglScarlett on 09/20 at 01:12 PM

“the preeminent voices are still white, well-off women”

Yeah, I don’t think feminism has ever broken out of that and I’m not sure why.  I just read Christine Stansell’s history of feminism and I think it gave the best in-depth explanation of the earlier split between black women and white women in american feminism, but it still doesn’t explain today.

I recently read a study which said the average wealth (i.e. total assets minus total liabilities), minus vehicles owned, for young nonwhite women is shockingly low. The median is nearly $0. For young white women it is significantly more, young white women have close to as much wealth as young white men. I wonder if that could partially explain the dearth of nonwhite women in feminism… they are mostly just trying to survive, so have trouble getting political?

Here’s a link to the study: http://www.neweconomicsforwomen.org/media/lifting_as_we_climb.pdf

Seriously, it blew my mind. Check out page 4 f’rinstance.

Comment #55: atheist  on  09/20  at  04:30 PM

Also, I remember Katha Pollitt wrote an obit for Andrea Dworkin about how she misses the feminist movement of the 70s that had room for someone like Dworkin. There was sort of a mainstreamness to feminism back then that allowed for a wider variety of feminist thought. It feels like feminists my age spend a lot of time saying “Hey look! We totally shave our legs!” and sort of seperating ourselves from “those feminists.” When I sort of wish there were more bra-burning hardcore activists catching the media’s eye.

Comment #56: alysia  on  09/20  at  04:36 PM

Also, I remember Katha Pollitt wrote an obit for Andrea Dworkin about how she misses the feminist movement of the 70s that had room for someone like Dworkin. There was sort of a mainstreamness to feminism back then that allowed for a wider variety of feminist thought. It feels like feminists my age spend a lot of time saying “Hey look! We totally shave our legs!” and sort of seperating ourselves from “those feminists.” When I sort of wish there were more bra-burning hardcore activists catching the media’s eye.

I think this is somewhat mythical, even though I understand Pollitt’s point. Bra-burning, for instance, didn’t really happen and yet somehow became a media symbol of 1970’s feminism. And there were always conventionally “attractive” feminists marching alongside the less “attractive” ones. Gloria Steinem was quite active at the same time that Andrea Dworkin and Betty Friedan were. Nowadays, I am not sure if you would call Rachel Maddow a “feminist” or not, but she certainly has a big-time media presence at the same time that there are also some feminist voices have a very different physical appearance than Ms. Maddow does out there.

I suspect that part of the real problem here is exactly what Faludi wrote about in 1990—the media always contains elements who are ready to declare feminism either dead or splintered at the drop of a hat, and one way to do this is to harp on differences in physical attractiveness. The point is always to declare feminism a movement for only a certain “kind” of women and with no importance to or even working against the interests of other women.

Comment #57: Dilan Esper  on  09/20  at  04:46 PM

As my mother has gone over to fundie-ism, all the old activisms she taught me in my youth are more or less a forbidden topic.  She freaks out about “what do you mean I don’t believe what I used to?” at any mention of inconsistancies or requests for clarification.

The description snowmentality gave for with her mother is something like what my daughter and I have at the moment, for which I am greatful.  We never had a big teenage battlefield type relationship either.  I would be baffled by the description if I had not seen it between my mother and sister as I tended to just avoid conflict myself, even as a teen with my mother.

Comment #58: helen w. h.  on  09/20  at  04:46 PM

I do think Faludi is right in saying that the whole narrative—-which I’ve fallen into at times—-about how 3rd wavers are more “intersectional” has a tendency to eclipse the hard work black feminists did from day one.  That they were disempowered in the movement and by the mainstream media doesn’t mean they weren’t there.  Or that this problem is close to over.  The main thing is analysis got more nuanced over time, but that’s a product of time, not generations.

Comment #59: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/20  at  04:51 PM

Poor women, and most working class women, of all ethnic backgrounds have shit to do.  They don’t have the luxury of taking an afternoon off for a weekly meeting or traveling to this or that meeting/conference. (Hell, most established professional women don’t have that kind of freedom!)  So, the people with time to be activist tend to be the really well-off or academics.  Sort of limits the pool and the points of view.

Comment #60: helen w. h.  on  09/20  at  04:54 PM

The thesis likely boils down to “yu young whippersnappers will never know how bad we had it, or you wouldn’t still be in the patriarchy’s thrall.” But I’m pretty sure that there were also many second-wave feminists who were sufficiently duped by the patriarchy to get their hair done, buy makeup, and place a premium on cute shoes.

Older feminists fought a lot of battles, many of which still seem to be won. Few women are “the first” or “the only” ones to be in any profession, even if they bow to the patriarchy enough to take their husband’s surname when they marry.

The complex motivations behind women fighting for reproductive rights well beyond when the issue has personally mattered to them I don’t even want to begin to explore.

Comment #61: Hector B.  on  09/20  at  04:55 PM

AnglScarlett @25: That’s precisely my point - that’s my mom, and that’s me. I’m not making any claims about the beliefs of second wave feminists, but rather about the fallaciousness of framing the conflict in generational terms. Regardless of our theoretical generations, there’s differences in opinion that don’t necessarily stem from the prevailing theories of the time, and fundamentally different worldviews that don’t stem from us being of different theoretical generations. I’d reckon that’s the exception, not the rule, so to set this up as a second wave vs. third wave smackdown is not a useful way of thinking about it at all.

Comment #62: katydid  on  09/20  at  04:58 PM

Also, for women who once quit shaving their legs, the Great Wax Revolution of the last decade or so must have come as a shock.

Comment #63: Hector B.  on  09/20  at  04:58 PM

Oldfeminist - I looked up the unemployment statistics for via the Bureau of Labor Statistics - page 21 has a breakdown by age. All persons who are looking for work and who are able to work (regardless of how long they have been looking) are counted as unemployed. For August 2010 the breakdown was as follows:

20-24 - 14.9%
25-34 - 9.8%
35-44 - 7.7%
45-54 - 8.1%
55-up - 7.3%

The poverty rate (families living under 100% of the poverty line) tells a similar story. (From the <a >Census Bureau</a> - data from 2009)

under 18 - 20.1%
18-24 - 14.7%
25-34 - 13.5%
35-44 - 10.2%
45-54 - 7.0%
55-59 - 5.9%
60-64 - 6.1%
65 and over - 5.4%

I have no doubt that the economic crash was awful for everyone (who isn’t a multi-milionaire, at least). But unemployment and poverty are hitting the young the hardest.

Comment #64: rivki  on  09/20  at  04:58 PM

My mother and I have talked about how it’s easy to get complacent with age - this was back when things were good, mind. Boomers were very likely to have all their assets tied up in real estate, and had a lot farther to fall when the layoffs started. The housing market crash took down huge swaths of them, including my parents, who are much angrier on a political level now then I am - I’m twenty-five, I own zero assets, and I have my whole working life ahead of me. Their household income is actually slightly less than mine (I’m one person, they’re two with a child still in college), and they both have age-related medical costs I don’t. Just in case we needed to have a whose-lot-sucks-worse generation grudgematch. In my family the Boomers are winning.

As is, I think it’s easier for me to get complacent with youth.

Comment #65: purpleshoes  on  09/20  at  05:01 PM

I dread the day I have the conversation with a nephew and he tells me that he is losing that day’s pay to visit the family because no one is offering paid time off anymore
Comment #40: boring old dude on 09/20 at 01:18 PM

This cracked me up.  People still get paid time off?  Luckily for me, my (Boomer) mother and aunt acknowledge the very different economic circumstances various generations of our family experience and schedule family functions at times when they know most of us can reasonably expect a day off.

I do find it interesting that since my mother’s retirement from public schoolteaching and subsequent un-retirement into retail, the quality of our communication about work has improved a great deal.  I think for many years she simply couldn’t fit her head around what low-paid hourly work was like thirty years after she had broken into professional white-collar work herself.  And yeah, teaching public school isn’t exactly rolling in money, but her expectations as a worker included union representation, a contract, tenure, benefits, and a pension, which I and many of my peers think of in about the same terms as we do unicorns.  Many of my conversations with my mom even five years ago broke down into her blaming me and my siblings for being treated poorly by employers, and us treating her like a crazy person for even thinking you could make demands or changes.  Now that she’s pulling 30-40 hour workweeks in a chain store herself?  Not so much.  I used to think if that day ever came, I’d relish the opportunity to cackle out an “I told you so,” but…it’s incredibly disheartening to see somebody I care about quietly revise her expectations downward.  I’d rather find a way to make changes in the opposite direction instead of commiserating.

Comment #66: atomicgeek  on  09/20  at  05:09 PM

Hector B., so because I don’t have periods anymore, it’s somehow suspect that I continue the fight for reproductive rights?

And yet, not suspect that I’ll fight Social Security cuts, even though they may not affect me?

It would seem that someone has a problem with older women and sexuality or menstruation, and it’s not me.

Comment #67: judybrowni  on  09/20  at  05:10 PM

Hector B, wow, you left a lot of room for interpretation with that last bit. You had probably come back and clarify before we start attributing all kinds of bizarre motivations to you, as I’m sure you’re not unfamiliar with the idea of caring about a cause without expecting to benefit from it personally.

Comment #68: purpleshoes  on  09/20  at  05:13 PM

atomicgeek, yep. That’s depressing.

I have an uncle who didn’t really believe in systemic sexism when he worked in academia, though, who sure as hell believed in it (and spoke up really vocally about it) at the end of two years working a retirement job at Wal-Mart.

Comment #69: purpleshoes  on  09/20  at  05:14 PM

alysia @54, your comment brought up this thought: perhaps the Boomers feel so removed from the previous generation (the whole 60s rebellion stuff) and spent so much time asserting that they weren’t like their uptight parents that it’s galling to be dismissed as no longer relevant?

My friends and I used to tease our kids when they discovered tie-dye and peace signs, “Hey, you’re just copying that stuff; we *invented* it.  We were cool first.” (to universal eye-rolls).  Perhaps this on a larger scale - “Hey, we rebelled first and brought you a better world; show some respect.”  The following generations are removed enough from the 50s-60s divide to not see the significance of the cultural shift; to them, change is more gradual.

I could be totally wrong about this; I just turned 50, so I’m at the tail-end of the Boomers.  Old enough to remember hearing about Woodstock and Vietnam on the news; far enough from the leading edge to not really feel a part of it.  I had no ideas of the feminists who paved the way until I set out educating myself; I’m much more appreciative now.

On feminism: I have several early 20s acquaintances, all of whom are non-shaving, equal-partnered, protesting-in-the-streets radicals.  NONE of them will claim the title of “feminist”, even though all of them clearly are by definition.  There must be a way to bring them into the tent.

Comment #70: NobleExperiments  on  09/20  at  05:15 PM

@ snowmentality

“If you want a mother-daughter model for intergenerational feminism, how about a model of love, trust, and forgiveness between family members?”

This x 100. I often wonder what kind of families people come from when they seize on an older = enemy worldview.

Comment #71: vitaminC  on  09/20  at  05:16 PM

I don’t have periods anymore, it’s somehow suspect that I continue the fight for reproductive rights? <i>

I was reacting to this comment of Amanda’s:

<i>Particularly in reproductive rights circles, you see a lot of older women grousing that young women don’t care, and then they turn around and don’t talk to us.  The Netroots Nation repo rights panel was a pretty classic example.  It had a lot of great women on it, but not a single woman under 40.  They could have invited, you know, me, but they didn’t.

I found this position—the freezing out of those for whom reproductive rights was a daily personal concern—to be exceedingly odd.

Comment #72: Hector B.  on  09/20  at  05:17 PM

NobleExperiments, there are a lot of interesting internal documents - I mean zines etc - published by hairy street-protesters that explore the skeevy gender issues that arise in a lot of street-radical communities. Now that I’m older, I think crimethinc is silly, but they did publish some essay collections and a memoir that dealt with it. “Anti-patriarchy” might be an easier label for women of that age and culture to stomach, thinking about it. Honestly, that’s one of the few places where I’ll concede that the association of “feminist” with “middle-class lady who tells man jokes” might be bringing some baggage.

Comment #73: purpleshoes  on  09/20  at  05:21 PM

as I’m sure you’re not unfamiliar with the idea of caring about a cause without expecting to benefit from it personally.

Sure, men can be feminists, too. But I wouldn’t have a panel of feminists that excluded women.

Comment #74: Hector B.  on  09/20  at  05:22 PM

Don’t really care about “respect” for having gone before in Feminism—never occurred to me to expect it.

Just don’t care for getting Boomer Punched, repeatedly. Especially when the meme is false and/or patriarchal or the Gen X,Y,Z or Millenial is falling for internicine class warfare, instead of punching up at the elite who have caused the financial mess and are thrilled we’re fighting each other over the crumbs they’ve tossed down, instead of fighting them for a fair share of the pie.

Comment #75: judybrowni  on  09/20  at  05:25 PM

Hector B, with the context, this makes sense. Without context, it came off as a little “I don’t have a uterus, why would I care”, which seemed unlikely from a regular Pandagon-reader, uterus or no.

Comment #76: purpleshoes  on  09/20  at  05:25 PM

Hector B, you seem to be setting up imaginary, no less incomprehensible, straw women.

Understand even less what the hell you could mean by that last line.

Huh?

Comment #77: judybrowni  on  09/20  at  05:27 PM

Angl @26, on an intellectual level, I know it’s true that the economy is hitting the Boomers just as hard as X-ers. On an emotional level, it seems every time I turn around, I see a Boomer in power (POTUS, banker, oil exec, mortgage broker, etc.) making a mess of something that affects my future. My home equity is gone, my social security will be cut, my 403b is down to nothing, I’ll have to work until I’m 90 or eat cat food, so it seems. So I know it’s not all boomers, and I know my retirement has time to bounce back, while they want to retire now and can’t. But I cant help but see them as the generation in power that refuses to give it up. It can’t be helped: as someone pointed out, the generational conflict between X-ers and Boomers runs deep and there’s a lot of anger on our side. It’s unfair, but I think in general the X-ers feel that our future looks bleak in every area - finance, workers’ rights, reproductive rights, the environment, food security, etc. - and who else to blame but the generation before us?

So, yeah, I feel resentful sometimes, I admit it. I’m really working on it and trying to be fair, so discussions like this definitely help.

Comment #78: elena  on  09/20  at  05:49 PM

NobleExperiments and purpleshoes, I associate with a group of people who are radical activists and do in-the-trenches feminist work - anti-trafficking, anti-violence, youth work, repro rights, etc. They identify as queer, gender-queer, anti-patriarchy, etc. But I rarely hear the label “feminist”; I think they’d feel that “anti-patriarchy” is more encompassing of their identities. I don’t know if it’s even necessary to get them to identify as “feminists” anyway. I believe that past radicals like Emma Goldman, Clara Zetkin, or Alexandra Kollontai had issues with the label, but not the goals. But I definitely see the trend in young millennial radicals to not take up the label.

Comment #79: elena  on  09/20  at  06:11 PM

Yes - “anti-patriarchy” was the term I was searching for, purpleshoes and elena.  Thanks.

One thing I’m noticing about the younger activists is that they’re so across-the-board passionate.  It’s not just queer or anti-patriarchy or anti-violence…. so many of them see how they are interrelated, and there’s more cooperation between factions; it feels much more “we’re all fighting the good fight, no matter our particular cause”.

My stacks of books include both crimethinc and Goldman; time to pull them out again.

Comment #80: NobleExperiments  on  09/20  at  06:45 PM

Hector isn’t setting up a strawfeminist.  He’s recalling something that Amanda said, about something that actually happened:  That sometimes there isn’t even a one-way street of communications.

Comment #81: Crissa  on  09/20  at  06:45 PM

But what does that have to do with Hector feeling it’s somehow suspect for menopausal women to fight for reproductive rights?

(While not, at the same time, feeling it’s suspect for those of us who won’t be affected by Social Security cuts to fight against those as well?

Hector, dear, just because you feel it’s icky that women who don’t menstruate could care about reproductive rights, says more about you than us.

Comment #82: judybrowni  on  09/20  at  06:56 PM

elena, I am wondering if the affiliations of queer and gender-queer also are doing part of the heavy-lifting there. I mean, I’m not going to propose that just because someone identifies as queer they truck in queer-theory as such, but there’s definitely a healthy helping of interrogating gender constructs that tends to crop up, ne?

Comment #83: purpleshoes  on  09/20  at  06:57 PM

judybrowni, I do believe Hector was saying it’s suspect if women who aren’t of reproductive age don’t invite women who are in the reproductive trenches, demographically, to their panel discussions on what women who are those ages should get to do. I have mixed feelings about that statement as interpreted, as I don’t particularly think of “ovulation-capable” as a niche identity the way I would think of… oh, I don’t know, a panel on working mothers having zero working mothers, or a panel on gender and Latin@ identity having zero Latin@ participants.

Comment #84: purpleshoes  on  09/20  at  07:01 PM

(I’m sorry, but am I the only one who thinks “Boomer Punching” sounds vaguely dirty…? I have no idea why, but it really sounds like something you wouldn’t wanna Google Image, yanno? ^^;)

Also, I move that all the 20-something feminists get to be the “Gaga Wave” of feminism. Yes/no?

Less snarkily—from the perspective of a 20-something, I have literally experienced nothing large-scale-bad in my life that was not the fault of Boomers fucking up. This is, I’m sure, the result of a lack of perspective due to my relative youth, but it’s unshakable. Every political scandal, every bogus election, every massive environmental disaster, every war: Boomers relentlessly failing to give a flying shit about my generation. Man, you guys watching your first real election, bright-eyed and bushy tailed in 2000? Naw, we’ll go ahead and fuck that up for ya. Environment? Wow, hope you guys won’t be needing it down the line ‘cause we love us some SUVs right here. Iraq war? Graduation present for y’all! Social secu-whah? Lol, don’t count on it!

It’s not unique to feminism as a movement… but almost everyone I’ve ever seen in power has been a baby boomer, and it doesn’t usually go well. I’m not pointing fingers, I’m just being honest; this is what I grew up with, is having all my idealism beaten down by Boomer fuck ups. It’s not fair to the vast majority, who don’t control that stuff, obviously, but that’s how I feel. You have to acknowledge that perspective when you complain about how 20-somethings don’t seem to care about your problems (which isn’t true anyways; y’all are our parents) because we watched you guys create all those problems before we could even vote.

Comment #85: Bagelsan  on  09/20  at  07:01 PM

Ya know, with all the resentment against old feminists it’s telling that we’re still fighting for the reproductive rights of women much younger than ourselves.

And in response we get dumped on—but don’t hear much about how the young feminists are fighting for the issues the old feminists are encountering in their senior years.

Comment #86: judybrowni  on  09/20  at  07:02 PM

@#60 Helen w. h.  Exactly.  I would LOVE to be more involved with feminist activism in my area, but I am also currently my family’s only means of support.  My husband is out of work, my room-mate is out of work, but at least she’s getting UI.  He’s not.  Even before he lost his job, it wasn’t like we were rolling in dough.

I’d love to go to things like Netroots Nation and BlogHer and other events, but I can’t.  I can’t afford the time off, I can’t afford the plane tickets or the hotels.  I can’t afford it. 

It’s kind of hard to get involved when you don’t have the freetime or the money to do it.

Comment #87: GeekGirlsRule  on  09/20  at  07:04 PM

The baby boom was huge, considered itself the sin qua non of everything, and doesn’t want to give up power or acknowledge the needs of any other generation except their own.
Ms.Kate #1.
A big hell yeah to that! Faludis screed comes off as typical Boomer whining. Boomers complained about Generation X (selfish slackers) and now are bitching about Gen.Y. Shut up already.
Pros of being a Boomer
Stable work environment (at least until the ’80s)
Affordable housing
Final salary pension schemes
Social mobility improved
Grammar schools for the bright
Relentlessly increasing standard of living
Emptier roads, beaches, and beauty spots

Comment #88: pitbullgirl65  on  09/20  at  07:11 PM

I don’t particularly think of “ovulation-capable” as a niche identity the way I would think of… oh, I don’t know, a panel on working mothers having zero working mothers, or a panel on gender and Latin@ identity having zero Latin@ participants.

I think on the level of personal experience it’s less of an identity… most non-“ovulation-capable” women once were, and can remember what is was like to be, ovulation-capable so it’s not a completely foreign identity to them. You aren’t trying to talk about experiences you’ve never had. However, when it comes to which demographic is going to be doing all the actual dying if abortion gets banned, etc… that’s definitely unique to pregnancy-capable people. And I think the people who would actual die deserve a seat at the table, yes?

Comment #89: Bagelsan  on  09/20  at  07:14 PM

Oh wow. So what we’re basically saying is that it sucks that the linear progression of time means that we have to deal with effects of things that we didn’t cause, while simultaneously dealing with the fact that there are people being born now who won’t understand our contexts as well as we do while criticizing our choices?

I demand that feminists address the problem of unidirectional time immediately.

Comment #90: purpleshoes  on  09/20  at  07:15 PM

@judybrowni

Ya know, with all the resentment against old feminists it’s telling that we’re still fighting for the reproductive rights of women much younger than ourselves.

This seems…off…to me.  I certainly don’t “suspect” older (post-menopausal) women of their motives in committing to reproductive rights, but it isn’t as though older women no longer have a stake in the battle over reproductive rights just because they can no longer give birth.  Abortion rights overlap with reproductive system rights, which overlap with the fight to preserve medical rights in general.  Post-menopausal women didn’t all of a sudden just stop having a reproductive system that men want to control.  Just because it doesn’t “reproduce” any more doesn’t mean that there are no battles over who gets to control the system itself.  So, while abortion as a single, unconnected issue may not really directly affect post-menopausal women, it isn’t unconnected and all women are directly affected by the battle over control of the connected system (treatment of menopause/menopausal symptoms, breast cancer, etc.).

Comment #91: Atheist, A Feminist  on  09/20  at  07:16 PM

In the end, it matters not a whit, what was written about previously, there still has to be one last Boomer Puncher in the thread.

No matter that it’s the Republican Greatest Generation and Boomers that fucked us all thoroughly out of a middle class, or that it was the upper class Boomers waging economic war on the rest of us and using social issues to do so.

No, according to this blog, it’s me, I’m to blame, a Boomer who voted the straight Democratic ticket for 40 years, and progressives when I could find ‘em and fight for ‘em.

It’s me and the other Boomer feminists who fought for Roe v. Wade (one of the feminist arguments we tried to take to the Supreme Court was that illegal abortion was killing more black and poor women than white—but still we’re told we ignored women of color.)

But no, according to the commenters on this blog, it’s all Boomers who have blood on our hands.

Read a poll last week, something to the effect that the younger generation who voted overwhelmingly for Obama and Democrats, is now split 50-50 for Democrats and Republicans.

Well, that didn’t take long.

And I blame all of you progressives and Democrats and supposed young feminists for the defection of the assholes and idiots and racists or whatever in your midst.

Or I would, if I were using your Boomer Punching logic.

Get wise to yourselves and take the fight to where it counts: the Tea Partiers, the Republicans, the Conservadems, the Corporatists, the ruling elite who just love your Boomer Punching, ‘cause it takes the spotlight off them.

Comment #92: judybrowni  on  09/20  at  07:18 PM

@judybrowni

Read a poll last week, something to the effect that the younger generation who voted overwhelmingly for Obama and Democrats, is now split 50-50 for Democrats and Republicans.

I would very much like to see that poll since the growing number of independents shown in all other polls makes that 50-50 split unlikely.

Comment #93: Atheist, A Feminist  on  09/20  at  07:19 PM

Bagelsan, especially since the problems change - there’s a difference between “it’s good that abortion is legal” and “I can’t believe I have to drive to another state to find a clinic that’s open”, yes?

I am also remembering a conversation with my mother about how she found it difficult not to get more conservative as her life got safer (again, this was before the crash) - it was easy for her to think, past a certain age, “well, pregnant women should just deal”, and she had to remind herself that she was once a young woman doing panicked math in her head in the dark and just being terrified beyond all measure. (In fact, I wonder if that terror is partially, itself, generational - I’ve always assumed that I have Certain Rights and therefore don’t need to really flip out).

Comment #94: purpleshoes  on  09/20  at  07:20 PM

Feministing feels as if I am walking on eggshells, and Pandagon has always felt just right.

Yep, same here. I’ve tried many also, and Pandagon is a good fit.  Livejournals’  ONTD_ Feminist and Feminist communities are even worse then Feministing.

Comment #95: pitbullgirl65  on  09/20  at  07:22 PM

@ #57 I would absolutely call Rachel Maddow a feminist.  She does so much on reproductive rights.  She’s a champion.  I don’t know if she would self-describe as one, but I’d be pretty shocked if she didn’t.

Comment #96: JennyLI  on  09/20  at  07:29 PM

I agree with the interconnectiveness on reproductive rights, Athiest.

It was Hector B that somehow found it suspect that women past reproduction would have an interest in reproductive rights.

But on this thread older feminists were getting trashed left, right and forward and backward, while we’re still fighting for specific reproductive rights of those doing the Boomer Punching.

Comment #97: judybrowni  on  09/20  at  07:33 PM

Elena @78, I am 42 and I feel that way too, believe me.  I don’t think SS is going to be there , and not because it’s running out of money or any of that shit, but because the elite have decided they don’t want it there.  But I know older people who are in such dire straits right now, that it’s really easy for me not to project my anger at the elite onto boomers in general.  I do tend to focus it on my right wing aunt.  She is a real fucking pisser, someone who would kill you for a dollar if you tried to take it from her, and who has made absolutely certain she has gotten every penny “coming to her”, and who was pro-socialized health care back when she had none ad had to have fibroid tumors removed in her doctor’s office without anesthesia, and I could go on and on.

Today, she’s a rabid tea bagger.  And I mean rabid. 

A real prime example of I got mine, fuck you die. 

But they are far from the majority, and we all have to struggle from time to time to remember it, because if we forget it, then we are playing right into the hands of the elite.  It is them who want inter-generational warfare more than anything.  It is they who benefit from it.

Comment #98: JennyLI  on  09/20  at  07:37 PM

To #88 and others making gross generalizations either way - please stop.  This mudslinging and the catch-all assumptions being made in too many of these comments is ugly and self-defeating and a circle-shoot we progressives fall into all often.

I am at the end of the Boomer generation.  (And when we snipe at the Boomer generation, let’s not forget that many of that generation were poor, black and/or brown and most certainly did not enjoy what benefits there were - there is a lot of white, classist privilege going on here in some of these comments with their assumptions):

1. No more stable work environment for me or for the young.

2. Affordable housing?  Surely you jest, if you live in an urban environment.  I pay over 50% of my net pay for a one-bedroom apartment, and that is not unusual for young or older folks like myself.  My single mother who was on welfare when I was young managed to buy a house; I and many others, young and older, never will.

3. Pensions?  Seriously?  401Ks, which many of us, young and older, have, are not pensions - they are stock market-driven ponzi schemes in which most of us are going to have to work till we drop dead because of poor returns.

4. Social mobility?  No jobs to be mobile to anymore for most young and older folks.

5.  I will give you this one - my public school teachers were the BOMB.  What little I have achieved (first to go to college and grad school in my family) I thank them for everyday.  Otherwise, many of our public schools are now a disaster - understaffed and underfunded.

6. RELENTLESSLY increasing standards of living???  I will engage in non-hyperbole here: Many, many of us are now making significantly less than we were just several years ago, and have watched most of our savings disappear in our non-pensions, with no real increase in standard of living wages for YEARS, while the prices of housing and health care and higher ed, etc., etc. have skyrocketed for young and older alike.

7.  I don’t even know what the hell you are talking about here, but I’ll take the emptier beaches and roads.

In short, please, please let’s stop this inter-generational sniping.  We have common enemies, and they are laughing all the way to the bank with our very lives.  Young and older alike are fucked by what’s happening in this country, and we better learn to communicate and work together productively to stop it, if it’s not too late.

Comment #99: Kathy  on  09/20  at  07:45 PM

It’s not older vs younger.  Boomers didn’t fuck up the environment and refuse to do anything about it.

THe ruling elite did.  Corporations did.  They bought politicians and they own them, literally, own them.  Like I own a sweater.  It’s mine.  If I want to throw it in the garbage, I do.

Comment #100: JennyLI  on  09/20  at  07:46 PM

judybrowni, I understand that ageism sucks from either end. I have heard tell of a motto being passed around, back in the day, about not trusting anyone over 30. That must have stung for people over 30 at the time, who surely were not all racist Vietnam War-starters who hated rock music.

And in response we get dumped on—but don’t hear much about how the young feminists are fighting for the issues the old feminists are encountering in their senior years.

This is a particularly special touch, combining as it does an insistence that we refrain from criticizing your whole generation while simultaneously dismissing the efforts of two entire generations younger than you. I have made a pinata for your pity-party out of paper-mached copies of Bust.

Comment #101: purpleshoes  on  09/20  at  07:47 PM

judybrowni, jeez - Hector already explained what he meant:

I found this position—the freezing out of those for whom reproductive rights was a daily personal concern—to be exceedingly odd.

He was not saying that post-menopausal women were wrong or weird or suspect because they still fought for repro rights - he was saying it seems wrong or weird to NOT INCLUDE women who are still of child-bearing age/capability in their fight. While there is more to repro rights than just abortion and birth control, those are often the subjects the discussions focus on. To have a panel about the subject at a big convention and not have any younger women involved seems odd to me, too.

And I do not see “older feminists” in general getting so thoroughly trashed, as you say. What I see are people relating their actual personal life experiences, some of which may possibly involve some people who are similar to you in age or other demographics who were not perfect. OMG HOW AWFUL. To admit that there are fuck-ups and jerks in any given group is NOT to paint that entire group as fuck-ups and jerks.

I see people pointing out how young women can be impatient with and dismissive of older women, how older women had to struggle to do their activism under an even more oppressive patriarchy than what we have now, how second-wavers get labeled as “not caring” about certain things that many of them really did strongly care about and fight for (and still do), and that it’s important for us as a movement and a society to try to get past this same old “mother-daughter” framing and to view the work everyone does as valuable no matter their age. Doesn’t sound like a trashing to me.

Comment #102: Alison  on  09/20  at  07:52 PM

Doubt the slippage of Millennial Gen support of the Democrats?

Wassa matter, don’t know how to use The Google?

Democrats Losing Young Voters

“A new Pew Research poll finds young voters “played a big role in the resurgence of the Democratic Party in the 2006 and 2008 elections, but their attachment to the Democratic Party weakened markedly over the course of 2009.”

“The Democratic advantage over the Republicans in party affiliation among young voters “reached a whopping 62% to 30% margin in 2008. But by the end of 2009 this 32-point margin had shrunk to just 14 points: 54% Democrat, 40% Republican.”

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2010/02/19/democrats_losing_young_voters.html

And those are figures for 2009, I can imagine even more slippage as the shitty economy of 2010 rolled on.

But I blame progessive and feminist Millennials for the defections of some in their midst, because from here on in, I’m gonna practice Millennial Punching in response to Boomer Punching that blames progressive and feminist Boomers for all the real and imaginary sins of any Boomers.

Comment #103: judybrowni  on  09/20  at  07:54 PM

Kathy, I thought the pension thing was wacky. My granddad had a pension. My boomer parents had a 401K. Past tense operative. Like I said, most boomer money was tied up in houses - depending on where those houses were, that’s toast.

Comment #104: purpleshoes  on  09/20  at  07:56 PM

my relentless bitchery aside, hating the Boomers because we’ve been screwed over by some people nominally in that generation (I was under the impression that Dubya and Palin are Gen Xers, if we’re playing that game) seems like hating Lithuanians because the guy who mugged you was Lithuanian. The important part is that he mugged you; focusing your ire on the Lithuanian-American community is not going to get you your wallet back.

Comment #105: purpleshoes  on  09/20  at  08:00 PM

I’m thinking that younger feminist activists have become just Activists. I’m 39; many/most of my female peers (particularly those in their 20s and early 30s)  identify as feminist but only as one facet of their activism/belief set in general: for the homeless, marriage equality, the environment, trans rights, poly awareness,  working against all possible ‘-isms’. Scratch a feminist in my next of the woods and you get a conversation about Food Not Bombs, or queer theory, or trans rights news. I imagine this might be fairly widespread, in the US at any rate?

While I’m thrilled about the energy and sincerity they devote to Liberty For All (and SOMEONE has to do it, right?), personally I have the space for one facet - ending the sex class status of women in a global culture that considers them subhuman. I don’t know which mindset is objectively better, or if one even is.

Comment #106: mir  on  09/20  at  08:02 PM

Hey, I’ve never “frozen out” younger feminists from anything.

I was pleased as punch at finding a new generation blogging, but I am sick onto death of Boomer Punching on Pandagon.

As for Amanda being frozen out of a particular seminar, if you read my comments upthread, I posit a reason for why that might have been so.

Comment #107: judybrowni  on  09/20  at  08:02 PM

p.s: do not worry, my Generation Y brethren. When we are around 45 or 50 as a group, some probably white and male members of our generation will indeed do some effing evil things! They will probably start wars; they will almost definitely exploit the poor. They will lie about it in the press, and they will tell younger generations that they don’t understand their own best interest. Some of us will profit indirectly from their actions; some of us will be screwed over by them. And a bunch of people in our twenties will choose our late middle years to ask us why the fuck we let them get away with it, while we insist that we were fighting them all along and would like some thanks for at least keeping a lid on some of the evil.

Don’t worry, guys. We’ll get our turn. And very few of us will have that much control over what happens then, either.

Comment #108: purpleshoes  on  09/20  at  08:06 PM

Hey, I’ve never “frozen out” younger feminists from anything.

I was pleased as punch at finding a new generation blogging, but I am sick onto death of Boomer Punching on Pandagon.

As for Amanda being frozen out of a particular seminar, if you read my comments upthread, I posit a reason for why that might have been so.

Well, as is often said on feminist blogs, if it’s not about you, don’t make it about you. YOU have never “frozen” anyone out, well whoopie-do, good for you. But when young women say it’s happened to them, don’t call them liars unless you just want to be a disingenuous jerk.

And I did read your comment - so even despite all the work Amanda does on repro rights, you think that because she holds a position that might differ slightly from other people’s positions, she doesn’t deserve to be heard? Wow - that’s a lovely fucking system you’ve got. Shut everyone up who doesn’t agree with you. Nice.

Comment #109: Alison  on  09/20  at  08:13 PM

According to Wikipedia: “The United States Census Bureau considers a baby boomer to be someone born during the demographic birth boom between 1946 and 1964.”

So that’s roughly the definition I’m operating under, just to clarify. (There were various time periods listed, some broader and some narrower.) And apparently Bush was born in 1946, and Palin was born in 1964… so they actually just squeak in. If we’re using that definition, at least. :p

Anyways, I’m personally not trying to bash. I’m just trying to give the perspective that as I’ve gotten older the world has steadily looked more miserable*, and it’s pretty much always thanks to a baby boomer. That’s not usually the particular label I assign to them (usually “rich” or “conservative” is the factor I focus on) but if we’re talking generations… yeah, pretty much everyone I’ve seen screw things up has been a Boomer.**

Hearing baby boomers complain about Millennials not crying for them sounds a little bit like, well, hearing men complain about how the government screws them over and women don’t cry for them. It’s true and it’s a valid pain, but I also have a hard time sympathizing because they are likewise a demographic that holds the reins of power. Just my POV, for what it’s worth. I am very disillusioned with older people as a group.

*partly this is just the nature of growing up, of course.

**this is mostly ‘cause most of the reins are held by Boomers, I think. I’m sure my generation will catch up in the next few generations on “total misery dished out.”

Comment #110: Bagelsan  on  09/20  at  08:18 PM

@judybrowni

Thanks for the link.  As the study notes, though, the younger generation is more liberal in their politics regardless of party identification and still more likely to identify as Democrats than the other generations.  The study links the decline to a lack of enthusiasm not to the adoption of a more conservative political ideology.

But on this thread older feminists were getting trashed left, right and forward and backward, while we’re still fighting for specific reproductive rights of those doing the Boomer Punching.

And you punch back, which I completely understand, but doesn’t exactly do much for shifting this from the incorrect us young’uns vs. the old guard.  I realize that “boomer punching” happens a lot, but so does criticizing the young and the new.  Punching each other over the fact that we are punching each other and reacting to explanations of why there is an inclination to punch with a punch back makes the imaginary divide seem more real.  I understand your anger, I really do, but it would be nice if you would acknowledge our anger instead of attacking us for it.

Comment #111: Atheist, A Feminist  on  09/20  at  08:18 PM

Amanda, one of the reasons you might not have been as welcome on a reproductive rights panel with older femninists: I remember being shocked at how short sighted was your seeming blase acceptance of the new health insurance reform that will eradicate all abortion coverage, even for women who already have that coverage, through private plans they pay for out of their own pocket…

Instead of seeing this as yet another assault on reproductive rights that chips away at the availibility to those rights, you shrugged it off, writing something to the effect that since abortion is a rare event it wasn’t that big a deal that women would have to pony up the cash.

Well, I’m sure it wasn’t phrased that cavalierly, but that was the basic import, overlooking the longterm assault on reproductive rights and even the individual difficulty for women in this underemployed age in trying to find the cash for something sorely needed in the moment.

Oh my GOD, do you ever need a link to back that up.

Comment #112: Auguste  on  09/20  at  08:20 PM

Notice Amanda herself didn’t refute that—but I’ve got to go out, so you can use the Google yourself to find it.

I remember it clearly, because I was shocked even Amanda was falling for the usual conservative line, “This particular assault on reproductive rights is no big deal. By no means should you remember all the other No Big Deal chips we’ve taken to hollow out reproductive rights, or the fact that this will embolden us to take even more, and claim that each is No Big Deal.”

Comment #113: judybrowni  on  09/20  at  08:27 PM

Judi @ 103, you are not helping. 

Stop taking all of these things as a personal attack on YOU JudyBrowni, and use it as a chance to open a dialog.  Please.

Comment #114: JennyLI  on  09/20  at  08:32 PM

And still more Boomer Punching, you just can’t help yourselves, can you?

Even tho your energy would be better spent going after those who created the situation rather than the progressives and feminists who have spent decades fighting against the very ills you decry.

It would be nice, also, if some of those doing the Boomer Punching would aknowledge the anger of those who are getting punched for no good reason whatsoever.

Comment #115: judybrowni  on  09/20  at  08:32 PM

Is part of older feminists being shut out related to older women being shut out? Watch TV tonight and notice how everybody over 40 or even 30 has been photoshopped by plastic surgery. How are we supposed to be bold in the world when we’re considered too trivial or unacceptable even to be seen?

Comment #116: Shelley  on  09/20  at  08:35 PM

Oh, W is definitely a Boomer, and Palin as someone else just pointed out, is technically a Boomer, but she’s so on the cusp between Boomer and Gen X’er it’s hard to say which shaped her more.  Born in 64?  Probably closer to an X’er.

What possible difference can it make when you are talking about an incoherent whackjob?  That’s the whole point, none of this shit matters, and getting overly defensive about it, doesnt help either.

Comment #117: JennyLI  on  09/20  at  08:35 PM

Well Bagelson, a lot of boomers might be disillusioned with you.

Did you stand on a street corner during the Bush years holding a sign?  Maybe you did, but I know I did, and I saw very few young people on those streets.  But then I went into the colleges and I met and saw many young people who were working on these issues there.

Sometimes you have to look a little farther, and not get all caught up in resentments.

Honestly, between you and JudiBrowni, neither Boomers or whichever generation you are from (Y?) are well-represented in this discussion.

I would tell you both to shut up or I’m going to throw the dip at you were in my living room with this shit.

But neither of you are representative either.

How does it become so easy to stereotype?  Seriously, dont you people ever leave your homes???

Comment #118: JennyLI  on  09/20  at  08:40 PM

So anything critical at all anyone says of you or your words or your behavior is “boomer punching”, eh judy?

Wow, it must be really hard to be you. How on Earth do you get around with that enormous motherfucking chip on your shoulder?

Comment #119: Alison  on  09/20  at  08:42 PM

If I never read or hear the phrase “boomer punching” after this thread it’ll be cool.

Comment #120: JennyLI  on  09/20  at  08:43 PM

Notice Amanda herself didn’t refute that—but I’ve got to go out, so you can use the Google yourself to find it.

I remember it clearly, because I was shocked even Amanda was falling for the usual conservative line, “This particular assault on reproductive rights is no big deal. By no means should you remember all the other No Big Deal chips we’ve taken to hollow out reproductive rights, or the fact that this will embolden us to take even more, and claim that each is No Big Deal.”

Ah yes. Make unsubstantiated claim, insist doubtful audience use the Google.

I have no interest in using the Google to search for some random apocryphal spin you’ve given one of the many anti-Stupak posts Amanda wrote.

“I remember one time you said it was totally okay to have sex with unicorns - well, you didn’t say SEX necessarily but you were clearly open to heavy petting.”

Comment #121: Auguste  on  09/20  at  08:50 PM

@judybrowni (and Auguste)

Even tho your energy would be better spent going after those who created the situation rather than the progressives and feminists who have spent decades fighting against the very ills you decry.

Of course, many of those people are boomers. 

I remember it clearly, because I was shocked even Amanda was falling for the usual conservative line, “This particular assault on reproductive rights is no big deal. By no means should you remember all the other No Big Deal chips we’ve taken to hollow out reproductive rights, or the fact that this will embolden us to take even more, and claim that each is No Big Deal.”

I definitely do not remember that.

I remember this:

All jokes aside, I want to take this opportunity to point out that the author of this piece makes it very clear that her $450 abortion was an enormous financial burden, and one she couldn’t get covered by the shitty insurance available to freelance writers.  Of course, now her predicament will be that of increasing numbers of women, because the price we paid for health care reform is the extracting of abortion coverage from insurance sold through the health care exchange.  To help alleviate the burden on women, there are abortion funds around the country that try to provide the money and other forms of assistance.  Many women come to them just for advice on how to find a good provider, but quite a few also need help paying for the abortion.  As you can imagine, they give as much as they can, but there’s never enough.

Because of this, Jesse and I are joining the virtual bowl-a-thon to raise money for abortion funds.

and this:

I did try to tweet some stuff from RH Reality Check about the Stupak amendment, and frankly, prior to the amendment, that’s the best angle.  They said what needs to be said—-that the amendment will strip many millions of Americans of their current abortion coverage, and that this is a bullshit move.  But even with all the prior knowledge I had of the situation, I was surprised that Stupak was able to get 65 Democratic votes against a woman’s right to basic health care.  The anti-woman coalition in the House is only about 40 Democrats, so I imagine the rest were genuinely afraid that Stupak would be able to defeat health care reform on the issue of whether or not women should be forced to give birth against their will. [...] There’s two lessons here.  One is that there is no such thing as “common ground”.  Obama and other conciliatory pro-choice Democrats keep insisting on believing that anti-choicers are in this for the fetuses, and therefore will be wooed by common ground attempts to reduce the abortion rate through contraception use.[...] The other lesson is that anti-choicers will always push for more.  There is no such thing as satisfying them, because no matter what they do, women continue fucking. [...] With this lesson in mind, pro-choice Democrats need to understand this: Contraception coverage is next.  Make no mistake.  Now they have a precedent of banning insurance companies from covering abortion, but this will not, of course, stop women from fucking.  So contraception is next.

The closest that I can find to what you describe is not Amanda falling for the conservative line, but debunking it:

[W]hen it comes to the Stupak-Pitts amendment, there’s absolutely no question that it’s bad faith.[...] Covering abortion under general health care is offensive to people for the same reason that people reject needle exchange programs—-they are willing to sacrifice the public health to send the message that the government doesn’t coddle sinners.

And we know this for a few reasons.  One, as Matt said, any true interest in life would express itself in support for universal health care.  Second, the only thing that this bill will do is raise the hassle and expense for women who get abortions, which puts this whole thing firmly in the “punish the sinners” category and not in the “save lives” category.  But it’s also worth pointing out that Bart Stupak and Joseph Pitts are members of the C Street Family, an evangelical cult that is firmly dedicated to the belief that women are inferior to men.

The only other results that seem relevant to what you claimed come from the comments thread and, while I certainly wasn’t up to an extensive search, none of those comments seem to have been made by Amanda and I am not sure that your summary would be completely accurate for them either.

Comment #122: Atheist, A Feminist  on  09/20  at  08:54 PM

Did you stand on a street corner during the Bush years holding a sign?  Maybe you did, but I know I did, and I saw very few young people on those streets.  But then I went into the colleges and I met and saw many young people who were working on these issues there.

Bush got elected when I was in middle school. 2000 was literally the election with which my 7th grade Civics class learned about how elections work (man, my teacher had to give a lot of frustrated disclaimers about how elections are not usually like that…) So yeah, I didn’t do a ton of street corner standing. But I’m not trying to make this whole thing about my personal activism. I’m trying to give a perspective from my generation. It’s not the only perspective by any means—but I don’t think it’s crazy for me to point out that I grew up with nothing but Boomer-as-a-group-caused disappointment. (If people need the pat on the head, I also grew up with tons of Boomers-as-individuals-caused love ‘cause, yanno, my parents and all my relatives…)

But, I mean, when Obama got elected my peers and I were flat out astonished because it was literally the first non-total-cluster-fuck that we’d ever seen in politics. Everything before that made me very (probably unfairly) cynical about the old guard. First impressions are quite strong…

Anyways, that’s where I’m coming from. I’m not saying it’s the most productive mindset. But I don’t have a lot to work with aside from my memories of the last 10 years, politically/economically/etc.

Comment #123: Bagelsan  on  09/20  at  09:15 PM

Auguste, if you’re not going to pet a unicorn what in the world is the point of having one? :D

Comment #124: Bagelsan  on  09/20  at  10:02 PM

Boomer feminists moved the feminist ball forward.  They couldn’t overcome the larger and more powerful patriarchy, which did a lot of bad shit.

The people most visibly in power at any time are at the age the Boomers are now.  So the face of the patriarchy is a Boomer face.  But it’s not because Boomers are especially anything.  The ruling class members of the Silent Generation before them were just as arrogant, and the ruling class members of the Greatest Generation, and so on, and the X and Y and Millennial will do the same. 

Because it has nothing to do with the generation.  This is ruling class arrogance, not Boomer arrogance.  It belongs to the very small ruling class, which never really changes. 

Sure, they may cloak their superiority in different styles, but a CEO in tie-dye on the weekend is no different from the CEO in Brooks Brothers in the office.  He’s indulging a personal whim that doesn’t inform his business ethics one bit.  Narcissism wears many hats, but it’s still the same ugly animal underneath.

Do you really think flower power caused Enron?

Comment #125: oldfeminist  on  09/20  at  10:06 PM

I don’t have a lot to work with aside from my memories of the last 10 years, politically/economically/etc.
Comment #123: Bagelsan on 09/20 at 08:15 PM

Why?  If you really mean this, then read a good history book.

Every generation is disillusioned.  Imagine growing up during the Nixon presidency.

Comment #126: oldfeminist  on  09/20  at  10:13 PM

The people most visibly in power at any time are at the age the Boomers are now.  So the face of the patriarchy is a Boomer face.

But see, that’s kind of the point. judybrowni’s wrong (about so many things, but primarily) this isn’t about “boomer punching.” It’s about “older, in-power-and-desperate-to-remain-so people punching.” If one is not older, in-power-and-desperate-to-remain-so or voting for the same, one is not the primary target of these complaints. One just happens to share demographic details with the target.

Comment #127: Auguste  on  09/20  at  10:29 PM

oldfeminist, I mostly mean that that is what I have to work with personal experience-wise. But hey, according to some people (not you) volunteering my personal experience is “boomer punching” and unwanted. The temerity of me to try and shed a little light on the mysterious (but useless and unfeminist!) 20-something-year-old feminists. I mean, seriously, I’m trying to give an honest assessment of my biases and background here, to be helpful to the discussion. Being blithely told to “read a book” is… exactly why some of us younger feminists don’t feel like we have anything to say to the older ones.

Comment #128: Bagelsan  on  09/20  at  10:33 PM

Auguste:  “But see, that’s kind of the point. judybrowni’s wrong (about so many things, but primarily) this isn’t about “boomer punching.” It’s about “older, in-power-and-desperate-to-remain-so people punching.” “

The very first comment included “The baby boom was huge, considered itself the sin qua non of everything, and doesn’t want to give up power or acknowledge the needs of any other generation except their own.”

You can’t possibly say this isn’t positing that the problem is Boomers being Boomers!

Of course every generation thinks it is the sine qua non of everything.  GenX or GenY thinks they’re special because they are modest in comparison.  People who went through wars were brave.  People who went through peace were silent and upstanding.  People who went through the Depression were tough.  And so on.  Everyone can come up with a rationalization about why their generation is the best.

Thing is, GenX or GenY or Millennials are not in any way more likely than the Boomers to blame a particular generation incorrectly.  Boomers did it to their elders.

It’s a function of one’s age and inexperience, helped immensely by a very widespread lack of historical perspective, which is very convenient for the ruling class.

Bagelsan, I said if that’s what you really meant, that you seriously have nothing to go by but your experience, then I’m not blithely but fervently asking you to read a good history book, because you need to know history to make sense of the present.

You have been clear and I think honest about your perceptions of other generations, but it’s only so helpful if you just stop there.  You don’t seem to think your biases are actually a problem.

You would like older feminists to listen to you.  We’d like you to listen to us.  One of the disadvantages we have is we can visit your world, but you can’t visit ours.  It’s gone.

Reading a book or seeing a movie or talking to us is the best way for you to find out what it was really like, rather than just going by how screwed up some tiny economically elite portion of older generations made this world.

Comment #129: oldfeminist  on  09/20  at  11:08 PM

NobleExperiments @ #80, I also see that across-the-board passion in younger activists. I’m generalizing, but it seems that the second wave was focused narrowly on women’s rights such as workplace equality and reproductive rights, us third-wavers took up and championed the idea of intersectionality, and this generation really internalized the idea that all forms of oppression are interrelated. I don’t see those as differences, or distinct categories/types of feminism, but as a natural progression in feminist thought.

Purpleshoes @ #83, absolutely. This community of activists is largely made up of social workers, so they might not be well-versed in queer theory itself, but it’s a good example of theory having an effect on practice. I definitely see a correlation between being queer-identified and being “anti-patriarchy” vs. “feminist.” As someone with an academic background and an interest in those things, I’m pretty excited to see how this identity stuff plays out!

Angl @#98, just big “Word!” to everything. It’s a struggle, because the face of power is almost always that of a boomer, but it’s important to remember that only the elites benefit from inter-generational bullshit, especially among feminists.

Comment #130: elena  on  09/20  at  11:44 PM

’m generalizing, but it seems that the second wave was focused narrowly on women’s rights such as workplace equality and reproductive rights, us third-wavers took up and championed the idea of intersectionality, and this generation really internalized the idea that all forms of oppression are interrelated.
Comment #130: elena on 09/20 at 10:44 PM

The most successful battles of the Second Wave were carried out by, surprise surprise, white well-off women, who actually had some clout and the time and money to keep fighting long after people with fewer resources were simply tapped out.

But what’s left of the “official” Second Wave isn’t the Second Wave, any more than Paul and Ringo are The Beatles.

Angl @#98, just big “Word!” to everything. It’s a struggle, because the face of power is almost always that of a boomer, but it’s important to remember that only the elites benefit from inter-generational bullshit, especially among feminists.
Comment #130: elena on 09/20 at 10:44 PM

Agreed. 

AnglScarlett, Amanda, many others have noticed this, and my thanks.  My explanatory comments are to the few who haven’t.

Comment #131: oldfeminist  on  09/20  at  11:58 PM

I’m posting to say that there are many women of color and poor women in the feminist movement. I mean…sure…sometimes it’s not called ‘the feminist movement’ but moving against the oppression of women is still the same idea..

Comment #132: shannon  on  09/21  at  12:08 AM

BTW: I am also annoyed by folks who say ‘AND WE TOTALLY SHAVE OUR LEGS!”

Comment #133: shannon  on  09/21  at  12:09 AM

Oldfeminist @ #131, I was going to say that the categories of first/second/third wave, etc. are only mildly useful, to broadly draw up the historical timeline or theoretical differences between feminists. It’s really second-wavers like Audre Lorde that started to get at intersectionality. This Bridge Called My Back was written by second wavers, too. It’s hard to break feminism down into categories like that. Is that what you’re getting at, too?

Comment #134: elena  on  09/21  at  01:07 AM

elena, yes!  Thank you. 

I read a lot of Ms. magazine in the seventies and eighties, and there was a lot of writing by women of color and about countries other than the US, and about women who weren’t middle class but blue colalr or pink collar.  There had to be non-whitebread feminism going on for that to occur.

It’s just that certain threads within feminism were more generally popular, and successful, and well-known than others.  And not surprisingly those most successful threads from the second wave were about white women who were experiencing the go-go economic times in the US, women becoming CEOs and so on. 

There were still articles about women in less positive economic environments, but they were not so encouraging, so they were usually not front page material.  I found them as interesting or more so, but perhaps I was an atypical reader. 

My approach to things is not primarily “look how far we’ve come, yay us,” but “look what we’re still missing.”

Comment #135: oldfeminist  on  09/21  at  02:10 AM

oldfeminist @ 131: I think everyone here knows that it’s always the elite of any generation who actually benefit, yeah? But I think it’s also important to acknowledge how people feel about each other, especially when there were people upthread getting, well, pretty butthurt about how could those youngsters possibly have a problem with their elders—!? and trying to attribute any difference of opinion or attitude to boomer bashing, ignorance, what have you. That’s all I’ve been trying to get at, is it’s very easy for people from any one group to say “but, I’m awesome! How you could have beef with people in my group? Clearly that is you being an idiot!” and I’m trying to explain that all those remarks are very nice, and even entirely true, but they are up against 20 years of bad experiences* with that group that have nothing to temper them.

*experiences okay? I’ve picked up a history book before.

Comment #136: Bagelsan  on  09/21  at  09:27 AM

“I think it’s also important to acknowledge how people feel about each other,”

Absolutely.  But it’s also important to move beyond that, or we can just get stuck in having feelings that don’t really match reality.

I’m not defending anyone trashing you or your generation or anyone saying “the Boomers are amazingly awesome, can’t you just admit it?” 

I don’t think “kids these days” are different from any other kids any other days.

And I don’t think belittling someone who’s belittling you really does anything constructive.

Comment #137: oldfeminist  on  09/21  at  10:59 AM

KITTIES!

Comment #138: ttintagel  on  09/21  at  11:18 AM

judybrowni says a lot that I agree with.  I got banned at Feministe for some mild teasing of a twenty year old blogger, no warning, just boom.  So, I have had a rather sour opinion of young feministes (that was not the only example). 

Many young people act as if they have discovered everything, and that the older generation has nothing to say.  If you laugh at something they say, and reply that you remember feeling that way, some how you are laughing at them and not “validating their feelings.” For real.

Being disrespected is not pleasant.  It is bad enough that we have to deal with that from men, but when young women buy into the society stereotypes of older women, well, FEH!

Comment #139: lymie  on  09/21  at  01:09 PM

But that’s pretty much just being young, isn’t it? And of course they have just discovered something new, even if it’s only new to them. There are ways to do the ‘right, I went through that at your age too’ that aren’t heard as ridicule/belittlement. Young people don’t like being disrespected either, you know, and at that age they’re still fighting the ‘you’re just a kid you don’t get a say’ thing.

At a family thing not long ago, my 17yr old cousin started up with the ‘old people screwed up the world and now they’re, like, here, you fix it!’ thing—and 44 yr old me and 27 yr old other cousin were able to convince her that those particular conditions were pretty much the same for us at that age (now, my 54 yr old cousin, the 17yr olds’ mother—she wasn’t able to say the same. On the other hand, when the teen started complaining about her cell phone rules…). There’s no real zeitgeist understanding of the economic conditions (reaganism, to start with) that’ve caused the problems, and there is a very strong Generations! narrative in the general culture/media. On top of that, of course, is that history in general has been neglected, much less recent history, and even less than that, leftist history. It’d be nice if we could expect that self-proclaimed internet experts knew all about the past that’s still within living memory, but…

And, well, do you mean that you have a “rather sour position” of people who blog at Feministe, or of 20yr old feminists in general?

Comment #140: TiaRachel  on  09/21  at  01:59 PM

Pupleshoes @105:
W and Obama are boomers.  I think Palin is just under into X (as am I).

Comment #141: helen w. h.  on  09/21  at  05:09 PM

Kathy @ comment 99: If you’d bothered to read what I wrote, the list was about all the benefits the Boomers have enjoyed.
Alison @comment 119: IKR! Jesus H.Christ. I hope I never here the term Boomer Punching again.

Comment #142: pitbullgirl65  on  09/21  at  05:18 PM

I just read through this thread, but this really takes the cake:

It would be nice, also, if some of those doing the Boomer Punching would aknowledge the anger of those who are getting punched for no good reason whatsoever.

I just want to say that there’s a difference between rhetorically attacking someone and actually physically assaulting something. I understand that the phrase “boomer punching” is a metaphor but it’s gotten pretty worn out here. Nobody’s punching anybody here, and accusing them of such is just a way to ignore without actually addressing the substance arguments you feel aren’t being made politely enough.

Comment #143: HonestB  on  09/21  at  05:21 PM

Nobody’s punching anybody here, and accusing them of such is just a way to ignore without actually addressing the substance arguments you feel aren’t being made politely enough.

Eh, for judibrown anything she disagrees with that comes out of the mouth of someone <40 years old is “Boomer Punching.” I honestly think her input got the entire fucking thread off on the wrong foot.

On that note, I basically agree with you, oldfeminist, when it comes to the practicality of “moving forward.” But please consider that you’ve had a much longer time to “get over” some of these things… it’s a little cruel to dismiss the problems that young people are having by saying “yeah, yeah everyone’s been through that.” Surely that should make the older generations more sympathetic? (I know, I know, cry moar.)

And, to be purely practical, nothing is gonna get the backs up of potential allies like saying that their acute and recent disillusionment is sooo last decade—Hey GenY/Millenials, I’mma let you finish, but the hippies had the best disillusionment of all time. :p (Outdated Kanye references make everyone get along better, yes?)

Comment #144: Bagelsan  on  09/21  at  07:40 PM

it’s a little cruel to dismiss the problems that young people are having by saying “yeah, yeah everyone’s been through that.” Surely that should make the older generations more sympathetic? (I know, I know, cry moar.)

I don’t think I’ve ever said that.  I just said every generation is disillusioned.  Certainly not that the Boomers did it best.  My namedrop of Nixon was just to point out that, yeah, we had our shitheads in charge, too.

I don’t think disillusionment is a nonevent.  It’s painful and challenging.  I kind of hope that knowing other generations go through it too might help.

Comment #145: oldfeminist  on  09/21  at  09:44 PM

That cat picture is adorable.

Comment #146: Doug S.  on  09/21  at  11:42 PM

@Comment #140: TiaRachel

I don’t have a sour opinion of all 20 year olds, or 20 year old feminists exactly, I have had many delightful conversations with many, and I get to self-mockingly preface things with “back in the old days” and get a laugh.  . I do respect many of the young women I talk to, many are athletes and understand hard work, and at least acknowledge those of us who are pre Title IX, and what we faced. I am in awe of many of these young women, and I am trying to raise my daughter to have the personal confidence/power that many of us lost as adolescents and only regained years later. 

BUT there is a certain young/new feminist contingent that is just looking for a reason to be antagonistic, and if you are an older woman with strong opinions, boom, target acquired.  Heaven forbid you make a generalization without ump-ti-ump qualifiers for the sake of argument. I find the Feminste blog particularly toxic and un-self aware all under the guise of being respectful.  I went from a link at Atrios, but I don’t go there any more, I only have so much emotional energy to spend.  Their blog was getting pretty homogenious as a result, even as they celebrate their “diversity”.  I get tired of talking to folks with no self critical awareness, just as incompetent people don’t recognize their incompetence.

Comment #147: lymie  on  09/21  at  11:55 PM

We’d like you to listen to us.  One of the disadvantages we have is we can visit your world, but you can’t visit ours.  It’s gone.

One thing missing from this is that even though the older generation can visit the “younger generation’s world”, most have often been so used to viewing the world through the perspectives of the world they were socialized in during their adolescent and young adult years.  This is one reason why so many older generations have serious issues actually understanding the younger generation and the issues and ideas they are grappling with….especially when there has been great changes between one generation to the next.  Just look at the problems the greatest/silent generation had with boomers’ differing tastes in music and in turn….all those generations’ issues with GenX/millenials’ love and even preference for Hip-hop and rap within the last 2 decades…..

While more in the older generation nowadays have a greater self-awareness of this issue to be able to keep it in check and to even overcome than in the past, too many of them are still content to continue seeing the world as it existed in the past of their youth and young adulthood as I’ve found to my dismay as the young’un being ignored or belittled because of my relative youth (high school teachers, older relatives…including boomer cousins, etc) and in the position of being a member of the older generation who doesn’t get it (i.e. Appeal of long cell-phone conversations/being connected 24/7, “only” checking my facebook once every few days/week, etc). 

It is especially galling when this happens in the context of the older person believing their longer existence alone is sufficient to command automatic respect and the assumption they know more/“are better” about any given topic even that is so blatantly not the case.  That attitude is commonplace among most in the older generation to varying degrees IME and is a great way to not only guarantee someone tuning out whatever you have to say….but also the possibility of complete alienation from you and those of your generation. 

What’s worse is that as a history major who does make a serious effort to research primary sources and critically analyze them and the historical contexts…..I found I sometimes actually know more about certain critical aspects in greater depth than my parents and those of their generation even though they’ve actually lived it because it is far easier to access information that wasn’t available to them due to lack of awareness, situational circumstances, and the fact some of the information was classified/known only to an elite few back then.

Comment #148: exholt  on  09/22  at  12:24 AM

I found I sometimes actually know more about certain critical aspects in greater depth than my parents and those of their generation even though they’ve actually lived it because it is far easier to access information that wasn’t available to them due to lack of awareness, situational circumstances, and the fact some of the information was classified/known only to an elite few back then.

I once found this book, Shanghai and Beyond, which is a history of Shanghai during the time my mothers’ family lived there in the French section of the International Settlement area before they were interned in 1943 for being enemy(American) civilians by the Japanese.

When I gave it to Mother Avenger to read, her comment was that now all the stuff the adults were whispering and talking about made sense when combined with the information that was in the book.

OTOH, there are things that were passed down through the family that weren’t in the history books:

Like how in Shanghai everyone knew the Japanese were up to something, in the few days before Pearl Harbor was attacked;

Or that the motive behind the kidnapping of Mei-ling Soong in Shanghai was because her then-fiance, Chaing kai-Shek, didn’t pay his respects to the head of the Green Dragon Tong when he went to Shanghai as was expected of all members whenever they visited a city, and that the price of redemption for his prospective spouse was to gaudow, (Shanghai dialect for kowtow) three times to repent of his mistake in protocol.

Comment #149: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/22  at  01:17 AM

One thing missing from this is that even though the older generation can visit the “younger generation’s world”, most have often been so used to viewing the world through the perspectives of the world they were socialized in during their adolescent and young adult years. 
Comment #148: exholt on 09/21 at 11:24 PM

Absolutely agreed.  It takes more than being alive at a time to understand it.  It just makes it a little more accessible, because it’s right there.

History books always come with some kind of agenda.  If you aren’t looking at the original material, your view is being mediated, even when it’s being presented by someone who’s trying to avoid bias. 

And even if you are looking at the original material, what you have available to you is a function of some kind of selection process, whether it be what was deemed worthy of preservation, what is selected for a collection, even if the ideas and attitudes of a time were physically recorded in any way.

Comment #150: oldfeminist  on  09/22  at  12:35 PM

Thanks for this saying this, Amanda.  I get so sick of stupid generalizations about entire races, sexes, or generations. 

I was saddened but not surprised to see that the very first two comments completely missed your point in order to jump in and smear the entire boomer generation.

To that commenter:  Any time you start to say anything that starts “All women this” or “All whites that” or “All boomers something” please stop because you are about to say something that is wrong and stupid and offensive.

Comment #151: Nutella  on  09/22  at  03:35 PM

At the risk of being misunderstood, a story from my own experience.  I’m probably in the general age range (based on the experiences they mention) as judibrowni and oldfeminist.  I teach at a small college.  Our women’s studies program puts on a conference every year and probably every third year it’s *body image* and faculty, me included, roll our eyes: boooring.  BUT.  But we stay on campus, year after year—it’s our job.  Our students pass through in four years more or less, and as we get older they stay the same—17 to 23 year olds (I’m counting the occasional outliers here too).  And I can remember when I first started reading things on body image when I was 18 and 19 and how revelatory it was to me.  Of course I think it’s boring (or just not riveting), I’ve been thinking about it for a long time.  Our conference is for and by the students.  It is new for them and it’s riveting!  They’re thinking about it!  It energizes them!  I’m glad they explore it.  Oh, and my memories of Ms. back in the 70s and 80s is the same as oldfeminist’s—pretty diverse range of articles on and by non-white non-elite women.

Comment #152: Ruviana  on  09/22  at  07:56 PM

@Ruviana

When I first encountered body image stuff in high school, I remember it being riveting as well.  I think it is a great “gateway drug” to feminism in part because it very easily answers “but what about the men” and questions advertising.  At the risk of accidentally falling prey to false generational divides, I think the advertising angle (which younger generations certainly didn’t invent) is one of the reasons it seems like such a big deal to younger feminists. 

I grew up reading Zillions magazine (Consumer Reports for kids), which explained advertising tricks and poked fun at how ads tried to sell their products.  I know the government still has programs teaching children about the effects of advertising and, as far as I know, those programs pretty much started in the ‘80s.  Since the increase of ads (both actual number and type) seems like it will only continue in the near future, I think approaches that focus on body image might even increase in popularity.  I agree with you and Amanda that a lot of it is because it is “new,” but I think a lot of it is also because advertising discussions are something the younger generations were taught that it is “good” to participate in and were given some tools to use in critique (tools they may not have been given for other political debates).

Comment #153: Atheist, A Feminist  on  09/22  at  11:11 PM

I got banned at Feministe for some mild teasing of a twenty year old blogger, no warning, just boom.  So, I have had a rather sour opinion of young feministes (that was not the only example).  Many young people act as if they have discovered everything, and that the older generation has nothing to say.  If you laugh at something they say, and reply that you remember feeling that way, some how you are laughing at them and not “validating their feelings.” For real.

Being disrespected is not pleasant.

Consider that you may have been banned because your mild teasing was unpleasant disrespect, especially if it was coupled with laughing at a younger person’s opinion and saying things like “I remember feeling that way.”  That’s very condescending.  For real.

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Comment #155: luxu  on  09/25  at  11:37 PM

As someone who occasionally gets blackout drunk and says horrible things on the interweb, I know, it takes a LOT to get banned from Feministe. Maybe you just came off in a way you didn’t intend.

Comment #156: banisteriopsis  on  09/25  at  11:48 PM
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