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I’d Like The Salmon, Please - Minus The Fish

ConservativesEconomyRace

imageRod Dreher has stumbled upon the startling realization that old, failing malls usually become the “black mall” before going totally defunct.  And it’s a phenomenon, to his credit, he’s interested in exploring.  Decidedly not to his credit, he doesn’t really want to know the actual reasons, but instead something else entirely:

Here in Dallas, I’ve noticed a similar phenomenon. I’m thinking of a particular mall that has become known as the kind of mall where poor and working-class Mexicans shop, and is on the glide path to defunctitude. If a mall gets known among white people as “the black mall”—or, I suppose, in a regional variation, as “the Mexican mall”—they just won’t go to it. Stuff White People Hate? Right-minded white people will deplore the trend, but the kind of liberal, educated white people who deplore this kind of thing aren’t the kind of white people who would be caught dead actually shopping in the black mall. They’re embarrassed by other white people who won’t shop there, and who don’t feel bad about it.

I wonder if this is a spiral: does a mall start to falter economically, making it accessible to minorities with less money to spend, who frighten middle class white people (and middle class folks of other races) away? If not “frighten,” then serve as a subconscious sign that this mall is in decline, and not where the cool people shop? I know, I know, racism and classism, let us all deplore it and move on. I’m interested in this cultural and economic dynamic.  (emphasis added)

Seriously?  I understand that the revelation of race and class’s impact on society can be a wake-up call, but it’s rare that someone walks right up to it and then scampers away like a scared kitten who got too close to the vacuum cleaner when it came on. 

The issue, of course, is that race and class cut the wrong way when it comes to political ideology, and it doesn’t really make sense that liberal white people would be embarrassed by the lack of other melanin-lacking people around them (in fact, according to the normal conservative shibboleth, liberal whites actually hate and deplore other white people, for a variety of reasons usually related to the fact that they’re always reading Shakespeare instead of Toni Morrison and watching Judge Judy rather than Judge Mathis).  So, what’s going on here?
As racism becomes less acceptable as a societal force, there arises a tendency to play Pass the Shitball - it’s really, really bad to be racist, and as evidenced by the fact that black malls pop up every so often, racism still exists…so how do you embrace reality for a brief second, then shake it off and get back to lamenting the fact that we almost had Pleasantville, but for the dirty hippies who insisted on introducing tongue kissing and park levies?  You blame the hippies for everything!

You see, the “cultural and economic dynamic” here is that there are three functional cultural groups in American society:

1.) Regular white people.
2.) Liberals (who are only white and who are brutally and terribly shallow).
3.) Minorities, who are fooled by liberals’ bling and their patronizing fascination with Kwanzaa, quincineras and The Wire. 

Dreher’s assumption is that Group 1 couldn’t care less about Group 2, and would gladly welcome Group 3 in if it would just stop associating with…those people in Group 2.  These “right-minded white people” who “deplore” this trend have made a perfectly rational, non-racist choice to get the fuck out once the line for new Air Jordans passes the line for the new Eragon book, but the real responsibility for their decision falls on the liberals who don’t civilize the savages, restoring Sbarro’s and Chick-Fil-A to their rightful place and making the faux-cobblestone paths of our local retail mega-establishment safe to once again shop without fear of gang violence or hearing Luther Vandross over the sound system in months other than February.

We’re asked to avoid race and class because they’re secondary to the real “cultural and social issue” of liberals ruining everything.  In turn, this transference and denial is perhaps the most important reason why race and class are such deterministic issues: even in an attempt to shift the scope from the interaction of whites and non-whites at the intersection of commerce, Dreher still fundamentally assumes that it’s all about whitey, and proceeds from his given assumption to a society that’s about little more than what white people decide it’ll be. 

Why do I get the feeling that Dreher’s always first in line at the new white mall?  You know, what with the liberals making him go and all.

 

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Posted by Jesse Taylor on 09:48 AM • (61) Comments

Wow, this is complicated. 

I’ve noticed that supermarkets tend to create cues to tell people whether or not they are welcome, socioeconomically speaking.  All supermarkets sell Tide, but not all supermarkets have a huge wine section and sushi chefs near the front of the store.  Increasingly though, the Ralphs stores in my area that are obviously targeted at the middle classes have added the aforementioned sushi chefs, and the ones targeted at the broke have been allowed to continue to degenerate.  And added locked cases for aspirin and baby formula, while also carrying lots of brands in Spanish, and lots of non-name, generic brands. 

So Ralphs seems to be telling my Spanish-speaking neighbors that the crappy store is for them.  It is also telling my broke neighbors that the crappy store is for them, and actively discouraging them from coming to the equa-distant upscale store.  And although it would be easy to have a sushi chef AND generic brands co-exist, they have decided that they would rather keep the two entirely separate.

When I was younger I used to refuse to go to the stores I referred to as Ghetto Ralphs or Ghetto Vons.  My reasoning?  There was always drama at Ghetto Ralphs.  There was always someone having a problem with food stamps, for instance, or I would discover that something I needed was in a locked case.  It took a long time for me to take the extra step to wonder to myself how it happened that the same chain managed to create a good store and an unacceptable store just miles from each other in what I thought was basically the same neighborhood.  And why would they do that?  Why does retail go out of it’s way to create two shopping experiences?  Does my dollar spend better when I feel like others have been excluded?

And even harder question though, is how do I deconstruct class barriers when I really like to shop in a nice atomosphere?  How do I put pressure on retail establishments to do what they obviously can do…  which is to make sure that all the stores are nice.  And that they all have Spanish products.  And that they all are staffed well enough, and have affordable things co-existing with perks? 

Once I’ve realized all of this and thought to myself, “This is wrong”...  what am I supposed to do next?

Comment #1: Eileen  on  11/30  at  10:25 AM

Seems like false dichotomies are so much easier than fine lines or fuzzy boundaries. Dreher clearly makes the assumption as an underlying fact that you have to actively hang out with people you approve of or are not actively suppressing, and that to do otherwise is hypocrisy.

I’m not in any way denying or minimizing white privilege and all that goes with it.

But shifting the metaphor a bit - I don’t have any issue with tractor pulls or NASCAR, or church socials (or, for that matter, church services) at evangelical churches. Similarly, I have no issue with meetings of the Faulkner Literary Guild, or with the existence of the Log Cabin Republicans (while admitting that they should be safe, legal and rare).

That doesn’t mean that I have any interest in attending them. My commitment is in supporting their right to exist, and has nothing whatsoever to do with whether I want to hang out with them.

Racism and classism definitely play into the phenomenon Dreher is pretending to look at, but it has far less to do directly with the shopping than with the underlying neighborhood, education, and opportunity structures. Discussing seriously why people don’t want to go to “that neighborhood” or be around “those people” is a worthwhile thing to dig into. Skipping over that as though it is meaningless and going right to the shopping is absurd.

Comment #2: Lymis  on  11/30  at  10:26 AM

You know, I was all geared up to write a nice comment about how this issue is just so much bigger, because people tend to shop at whatever’s closest to their house. And then I remembered that when I lived in east Austin, I used to drive past a Fiesta to get to the HEB, but I also shopped at Highland Mall (the “black mall” in Austin) because it was the only mall anywhere near my apartment.

Now I don’t know what to think.

Comment #3: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  11/30  at  10:48 AM

And of course, in my first comment I forgot to mention why this issue may be bigger, although it’s not tough to deduce: white flight.

When does a mall become the “black mall”? When the surrounding neighborhoods reach that proverbial critical mass of minorities that sends the “I can’t be racist because I have a black friend” people heading for the exurbs.

Comment #4: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  11/30  at  10:51 AM

This made me wonder about the phenomenon (at least in SoCal) of “Outlet Malls” located in remote or out-of-the-way locations.  I wonder if those locations not only serve to lessen competition with other retailers but also as a filter to raise the class level (and whiten the race level) of the people shopping there.

Sort of like a retail version of voter suppression tactics…

Comment #5: MikeEss  on  11/30  at  11:21 AM

...instant banning is being asked for, nay begged for…

Comment #6: MikeEss  on  11/30  at  12:02 PM

That’s what makes you a hack.

And the fact that you try to explain away this makes you a troll.

So would you kindly go eat rat cock?

Comment #7: Damian  on  11/30  at  12:04 PM

Having worked in a business that supplies Ralphs, I just wanted to point out that they have category labels for their stores (or we had labels for their stores, to be sure I am not sure who created them). The ones with sushi chefs are called “Upscale/Freshfare,” the ones without chefs but still in good neighborhoods are called “Mainstream” and the ones “white people don’t want to shop in” are called “Value Hispanic.” The Upscale/Freshfare not only have the chefs, they have their own mailers with different sale items each week than the other stores.

Comment #8: Greg in LA  on  11/30  at  12:37 PM

Can we institute insta-banning for trolls that not only fail in trying to engage in discussion but also name themselves with nicknames that are both misogynistic and vaguely threatening toward our host/ess?

Seriously.  Utter fail AND thread derail.

Comment #9: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/30  at  12:43 PM

I knew of two malls that are failing malls, both were the result of the “teen” factor, not a race factor.  Both malls has the unfortunate luck to have a group of teens run wild in the mall during shopping hours.  People were shoved and hurt, stores were vandalized and property was broken.  After having the News at Eleven show repeated shots of the the trashed malls, no publicity campaign in the world was able to overcome the image of being the mall where the riot occurred.  It just felt safer to go to other malls, even as these two mall told everyone that they had increased security and they were safe.  The high class retailers bailed for different malls, vacancies started rising, which made the malls feel more creepy, rents started dropping, so the business that came in had less capitol and their shops looked less well kept up, which added to the creepy factor.  One of these malls closed, the other is barely hanging on.  I don’t think in either case race was the initial factor in the downward trend, perceived security was.

Comment #10: lindah  on  11/30  at  01:00 PM

Eileen, what’s funny is that in Austin, one of the upscale grocery stores (huge wine section, a hippie section that sells organic food and beauty products, sushi rollers) is right across the freeway from one that’s clearly catering to a working class Hispanic demographic.  But there’s a lot of working class black people in the neighborhoods that surround the second grocery store, but from what I can tell, most of them shop at the first grocery store, that was built to cater to the wealthy (and mostly liberal) yuppies in the neighborhood around the first grocery store.  So far, this fact has not caused any of the strain that Dreher thinks to seem is inevitable.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/30  at  01:07 PM

There was always drama at Ghetto Ralphs.  There was always someone having a problem with food stamps, for instance, or I would discover that something I needed was in a locked case.  It took a long time for me to take the extra step to wonder to myself how it happened that the same chain managed to create a good store and an unacceptable store just miles from each other in what I thought was basically the same neighborhood.

??? This seems to undermine the point.

Were the prices the same at these two Ralphs?

Comment #12: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  11/30  at  01:15 PM

The “black people like it that way” argument is worth approximately 1 lb of dogshit. Maybe a little less. Personally, I have enough dogshit in my life already and so I reject this shipment.

*Boggle* You would drive past a Fiesta to go to an HEB?? Dang, I consider HEB a poor substitute for my local Fiesta, which has way better produce and a fresh fish counter, and carries gallons of good olive oil and big bags of basmati rice. Also their dollar store section is better.

I can’t process Deher’s thoughts here - lessee, black & hispanic people can afford to shop there, thus white people get the idea that it’s a crappy mall, thus they go elsewhere…and he bypasses race & class as topics of discussion? Now, why would he do that?

Comment #13: Shell Goddamnit  on  11/30  at  01:19 PM

I thought it was Ralphs that had engaged in massive consumer fraud on their hispanic customers but it was some chain called “Nash’s.“http://majikthise.typepad.com/majikthise_/2008/10/marketing-while.html

All I wanted to add to this very good post and thread is that of course the real issue in grocery stores isn’t the cost of the items being sold its the mark up.  Rich people, and aspiring rich people, pay more for the same goods *over and above what they are worth* especially when those goods have a high class status or can’t exactly be measured against other identical goods.  So a store that wants to keep upper class buyers inside, unable to comparison shop, will do everything it can to make the entire experience class specific (and therefore race specific in this race and class obssessed society) so as to attract the “right” buyers and keep them comfortably unaware of other issues and other existences. Its like running a casino.  The last thing you want your buyers to think about is whether their fruits and veg might not be had more cheaply somewhere else. 

This isn’t to deny that ghetto supermarkets can be extremely highly priced and have lousy selection. That isn’t done to make ghetto consumers feel special its done because of a monopoly provider doesn’t have to do anything to attract its clientele, they have no where else to go.

In re the “locking stuff up” I have noticed the same phenomenon in all white CVS’s and drugstores. For some reason Prilosec is frequently placed behind the counter in Cambridge and Belmont stores—you have to ask for it like it was cigarettes—while it is on the shelves in Lexington. 

aimai

Comment #14: aimai  on  11/30  at  01:31 PM

I remember living in Baton Rouge (LA) when I was in college some fifteen years ago, and at the time there were precisely two malls: the White Mall (Cortana) where all kinds of people shopped, and the Black Mall (Bon Marche), where white people didn’t shop.  These were on the same road maybe a mile or two apart.

I also remember shopping at the Lane Bryant at Bon Marche even though I’m white, because if the LB at Cortana was sold out of a particular color/size/style combination that would flatter someone who looks like me, there was a good chance the LB at Bon Marche would have one in stock and be sold out of the color that looked good someone shaped like me but colored a few shades browner.

When I lived in Oregon, there wasn’t a Black Mall / White Mall divide, and I kind of got out of mall shopping to begin with.  And now I live in Maine, where there aren’t that many malls to begin with and the population is so disproportionately white that a mall which didn’t have white customers would have a hard time keeping itself in business. 

I suspect that the Black Mall / White Mall phenomenon of my southern youth contributes to my (white) experience of cultural racism:  I grew up with the unspoken assumption that ... (I’m having trouble phrasing this in a less-inflamatory way, apologies in advance for my clumsiness) ... the assumption that while it was acceptable for persons of minority race to be present and do things in the parts of society that were formerly “whites-only”, it was still unacceptable for whites to be in the places and do the things that were formerly “colored-only” (to use the language of a generation before my birth). 

Racial integration, in a legal sense, was a done deal for people (my age and younger) born after the Civil Rights movement, but what happened in practice (at least in the 70s, 80s and early 90s) was a form of social segregation between racial groups differentiated between “what was okay for white people to do” and “what was NOT OKAY for white people to do,” with “okay” in context defined by our boomer parents’ struggle against the assumptions of their Jim-Crow era parents and grandparents.

And so it goes.  We are nowhere near there yet.  Maybe our children’s children will get it right.

In the mean time, I’ll shop at whichever mall has my size/style/color combination in stock.  Preferably on the clearance rack.

Comment #15: Thena, Sultana of Stale Raisin Bread  on  11/30  at  01:50 PM

If of the more accurate, cutting and funny things Bill Maher ever did was put his finger on just this white problem.  He was chopping the legs off people who cheer when “we” win the NBA championship.  He rant (paraphrased from memory):

“We?  What the hell did you have to do with it?  It was won by a bunch of black guys who wouldn’t even like you if they met you.  And where the hell do you get off claiming a role in what they did?  You moved to the damned suburbs to get the hell away from people just like them, so none of this “we” shit.”

Comment #16: seeker6079  on  11/30  at  01:52 PM

lindah,
Malls can recover from those incidents. One of our malls had the same thing happen when, after a costly and extensive rebuild, about fifteen years ago there was a riot by teenagers and later a shooting. Security was brought into the mall and also patrolled the parking lot and it’s now as thought the incidents never happened. I go there when I go into a mall at all, and it’s quite decent - for a mall. BTW, I’ve never seen the targeting by grocery chains but I can believe it. If I want ethnic food, I’ll go to a large Hispanic or Asian grocer rather than a regular chain. Selection’s much better and they’ll have good prices. The only “black mall” in our area became that way in the 1980s, and a lot of my friends wouldn’t shop there anymore. Not because of the people, but because of the crime that moved in later. My mother had her hubcaps stolen the last time she went there, and there were at least two incidents where a rapist broke into and hid in cars in the lot, waiting for their owners to come back. The mall wasn’t proactive about the crime wave (it addressed it only years later), and businesses left until I had no reason to go there anymore. They eventually bulldozed the mall about 3 years ago, but some individual stores still are there.

Comment #17: papa zita  on  11/30  at  01:53 PM

I’m pretty sure Prilosec etc is behind the counter at the pharmacy everywhere here. Whenever I’ve bought it I had to show ID and sign for it. It’s because of the pseudoephedrine of course; they want to make sure I’m not buying six packets of it in 20 different stores & taking it off to my meth lab in Bumfuck. Which I have that shit shipped in from Canada, so nyah.

I’ve seen lockups at pretty much every drugstore in town; the items they contain vary. I am assuming that items stolen vary by store, not just by neighborhood. Retail is funny that way - it’s predictable in larger views but varies oddly at the closest focus.

Comment #18: Shell Goddamnit  on  11/30  at  01:56 PM

“??? This seems to undermine the point.

Were the prices the same at these two Ralphs?”

Well, that’s a good point.  I never did a price comparison, but I never had the impression that staples were cheaper at the downscale Ralphs.  They had fewer upscale items and more bulk items, but I don’t think anything was that much cheaper.  It would be worth checking out.

I’ll shop anywhere I’m treated like a person and have access to the things I need.  The problem with downscale Ralphs isn’t that people used food credit options, but that the store refused to figure out how to process them quickly and correctly.  And it also offended me that everything was locked up, and the store was so understaffed that you couldn’t find someone to get you your formula or monistat even when you wanted to buy it.  I kind of assumed that they knew they had a certain number of people in the immediate area without cars who would shop there anyway because they were geographically trapped, whereas the upscale store only blocks away was far less accessible without a car.  Could that have been part of it?

My biggest point is that the whole ‘black mall’ or ‘downscale Ralphs’ didn’t just happen organically.  It wasn’t a natural progression in which the middle classes looked around and said, “This is not for me.”  Instead, the stores seemed to do everything they could to transmit that message.  And it seems like it would be easy to create a mall or a superstore that can sustain itself while providing something for everyone in a geographic area regardless of income level.

Comment #19: Eileen  on  11/30  at  02:02 PM

and the ones targeted at the broke have been allowed to continue to degenerate

Part of this is a self-reinforcing dynamic.  As a store’s revenue starts to drop the response of head offices everywhere is to cut that store’s budget.  This results in: fewer staff; longer lines at the checkout; more tired, cranky staff; less stock on the shelves (because of the way things are set up with the warehouse part of the business*); dirtier stores ... (I could go on; it’s also about this point that head office assholes in thousand dollar suits start showing up and wondering why X, Y and Z isn’t done, generally about three weeks after the layoffs and hours cutbacks.).  This makes the shopping experience so unpleasant that nice middle class folks who don’t have to put up with it don’t.

In terms of so-called “ethnic” foods and goods, part of it just might the pointlessly demanding nature of white middle class folks.  It’s not enough that they get their food from clean store.  It’s necessary that they get it in a modern, gleaming store.  I’ve notice here in Toronto and London that a lot of folks who don’t come from that background don’t give much of a damn about the shiny shiny backdrop.  Is the store clean?  Honest?  Has it got what I want?  Good.  Then I don’t give a damn about Teh Pretty.  You go into those stores and they are an exercise in functional minimalism.

* - I worked in a Canadian grocery chain which actually treated its store arm and its warehouse arm as separate corporations buying and selling from each other.  What happened was that the warehouse could, wreck anything, send shit or spoiled stuff, but the stores still had to pay for it and be accountable to head office.  This, needless to say, resulted in a highly profitable warehouse operation and demoralized stores with greatly reduced profit margins.

Comment #20: seeker6079  on  11/30  at  02:04 PM

In my last paragraph I feel like I described Target pretty well, for some reason.

Comment #21: Eileen  on  11/30  at  02:08 PM

Seeker that chain wasn’t Save-On/Overwaitea was it?

Comment #22: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  11/30  at  02:14 PM

A&P;, Lindsay.  I don’t think we have either Save-On/Overwaitea in Ontario.  This information dates back at least two or so years, before A&P;was bought out by a Quebec chain.

Comment #23: seeker6079  on  11/30  at  02:36 PM

So Ralphs seems to be telling my Spanish-speaking neighbors that the crappy store is for them.

Personally, I still don’t feel comfortable in fancy stores, and will go to the crap store because I know that I’m paying for food, not performance art.  I probably buy a lot more groceries than most Pandagonians though.  We are interested in good food, but we can actually find that at the cheaper places and it is, well, cheaper.

There are several crap stores around, and I tend to go to them because they are smaller, faster to navigate, and a lot cheaper.  The problem is that they are so busy right now at any and all hours in the city that I have started going to larger stores (Market Basket) a bit further out in the burbs - larger stores, takes less time, same prices.  The new twenty-acre stop and shop with enormous rows of non-food items in the middle and staple items on the walls is just monstrously dysphoric for me.  The only advantage is that it is always open.  It seems like they have a lot of stuff, but there is a lot of stupid junk to wade through and they don’t even have the brand variety within category that Market Basket or Johnny’s Food Bastard does.  They also demand those stupid cards.

There is a Whole Foods very near my house, and I go there because I can walk and because it is just about the smallest one in their chain.  They also were sensitive to the neighborhood and didn’t make it fancy and exclusive, just funky and cosy.  The only reason that it became a Whole Foods because Trader Joes was eying it when Wild Oats sold out - and I would rather have had a TJs.  Still, there was one funny night when the weather was wonderful that the cashiers snickered when I came through with milk in one hand and my helmet in the other ... there had been a steady stream of people biking to the store to get milk that evening.  I was number 7, and number 8 was approaching.

Comment #24: Ms Kate  on  11/30  at  03:55 PM

Might I add that one of the attractions of shopping downscale grocery chains and malls is that even my white trash sense of “I won’t get followed around” or “I’ll get good service here” is satisfied?

That alone might be what makes blaxicans steer clear of snooty spaces.

Comment #25: Ms Kate  on  11/30  at  04:00 PM

In my last paragraph I feel like I described Target pretty well, for some reason.

In the positive (stores that manage to cater to everyone) or negative (stores that transmit exculsionary messages) light?  Both were in your last paragraph.  smile

I ask because my family’s budget was saved by the opening of a SuperTarget down the road right before the birth of my first child.  Their generic brands are high-quality and often half the price of even the “cheap” national brands.

Interestingly, my parents live in a very upscale section of a much more conservative town not too far away (same state).  There are no SuperTargets there at all.  In contrast, we live in a more urban, very race- and class-mixed area.

Comment #26: Lee  on  11/30  at  04:02 PM

When I lived in Oregon, there wasn’t a Black Mall / White Mall divide, and I kind of got out of mall shopping to begin with.

Thea, when I grew up in Oregon, there were very few black people.  There were, instead, trash malls and nice malls ... Eastport Plaza, Mall 205 or the pre-renovation Lloyd Center versus Clackamas Town Center.

Comment #27: Ms Kate  on  11/30  at  04:03 PM

Shell -

Here in central FL, you can buy Prilosec off the aisle (middle aisle, even) at Wal-Mart, but it’s locked up at every CVS, Walgreens, etc.  You would think it would be much easier to steal at Wal-Mart, but the pharmacies treat it like gold.

Prilosec doesn’t have any pseudoephedrine in it (it’s used to control acid reflux, not a sinus medicine).  It’s just an expensive over-the-counter drug, so lots of people steal it because they can’t afford it, from what my pharmacist tells me.

Comment #28: shartheheretic  on  11/30  at  04:07 PM

Y’know, deleting troll comments makes those of us who tell the trolls to get bent look like we’re out of our damn minds.

That’s not what you’re going for, is it?

Comment #29: Damian  on  11/30  at  04:31 PM

Ah, retail.

Ironically enough the small, scuzzy, Giant (grocery store) in my immediate neighborhood is the one has the nicest people.  If you want to be treated like shit, go out to the burbs and revel in the terrible customer service.  And I mean aggressively bad service.  The staff at my neighborhood store are, to a person, delightful and friendly.

And what’s the difference between being in stuck in line behind the person using food stamps to buy food and the 800 year old woman writing a check for hers?  Or the the same 800 year old woman who still can’t figure out her debit card?

Answer: none.  Well, unless you’re an asshole like dreher and think it’s better to be stuck behind stupid white people rather than someone else.  Whatever.

One trend I’ve started to notice here in Pennsylvania the last few years is the reduction of SKUs in the stores.  It’s mostly a factor of many of the chains not doing their own ordering and being stocked by outside vendors.  It’s led to, many times, five or six facings of the same product where there used to be five or choices of products.  Curiously enough my tiny grocery store actually does a better job of stocking more variety than some of the burb ones.

One place I notice a huge difference is in produce and meat.  This might be a very local thing because we have a enormously popular farmer’s market in the middle of town.  I’m not sure but it does seem the “urban” grocery stores frequently have miserable produce and meat.

Part of all of this is that the urban grocery store are, generally speaking, older and smaller than the new megaboxes they build in burbs.  My city has aggressively lobbied the chains in town to remodel and expand their stores.  Two years the difference between the city grocery stores and the same same chain in burbs was amazing.  However, with the exception of my little grocery store, all the other urban stores have or are remodeling and expanding and basically making their urban locations look just the burb ones stores.  That’s a good thing because it’s addressed the produce and meat offerings by expanding those sections and offering more variety and better quality.

The one thing I can’t get a handle on here is pricing.  There are a lot of family owned store in Lancaster County (burb stores) which tend to be pricey compared to the state-wide chains.  That’s no big surprise.  In general I think the stores in town tend to be a little cheaper than the same chains in burbs.

I do wonder if the companies that owned the stores in town would have remodeled if the city had not pushed them to do it.

As for mall retail, we’re too weird in that realm to make any statements that could possibly apply many other places.  The shopping is much more integrated (demographically) than I recall it being in California but it’s been ten years since I was lived in Cali so things may have changed there as well.  We really don’t have the “black mall” here.

Finally, as for dreher, as you point out Jesse, he’s just projecting whatever it is he hates about himself to duh libruls.  It’s just one his usual schticks and frankly why I don’t even bother scanning that crap.

Comment #30: ice weasel  on  11/30  at  04:32 PM

Chris Rock famously noted the two mall phenomenon. Here’s a quote from his SNL monologue about this great land of ours in 1996:

And every town’s got two malls! They’ve got the white mall, and the mall white people used to go to. ‘Cause they’re ain’t nothing in the black mall! Nothing but sneakers and baby clothes!

Where I used to live, chain stores deserted the inner city. So there were no Ghetto Ralph’s or Ghetto Von’s. Black folks, wanting things like head lettuce that wasn’t brown, would drive out of the ghetto to where I and my fellow white folks lived. The tipoff for me was that my white chain’s meat department carried trays of turkey tails. Imagine how strict your budget must be if turkey tails are your source of animal protein and flavoring.

Comment #31: Hector B.  on  11/30  at  04:38 PM

Thena, Cortana/Bon Marche were the malls I thought of when reading this post also. I also went to college in Baton Rouge. Interestingly enough, Rod Dreher did, too. (I went to high school with him, back when he was a beret-sporting liberal kid)

Comment #32: Willendorf Venus  on  11/30  at  04:47 PM

Lindah:
I think you are right about it being a teen thing rather than a race or economic thing.

I have been working as a security guard at a suburban mall(i am looking for a new job really) and 90 percent of my job is catching and detaining vandals other than always being young they are almost every race and economic backround.
My guess would be that as areas get more teens the malls and markets start to deteriorate.

Comment #33: karl  on  11/30  at  04:48 PM

The whole mall world, both black and white, is controlled by acidic Jews and the Illuminati, who both profit from the hatred of capitalistic enterprise that you communist LIEbrals have for the entire USA of America.  If Americans were allowed to exercise their 2nd Amendment Rites, there would be no black malls and we could go back to being a peaceful society again, like we were before the oppression of the Civil Rites Act.  As it stands now, all kinds of ethnics are allowed to have stores and even the normal white grocery stores in my beautiful Butte carry Mexican food and even Chinese food.  You DEMONcraps are destroying democracy with your homosexulist agenda, which seems to require food from around the world, rather than American food.

Comment #34: Rugged in Montana  on  11/30  at  04:52 PM

@Ms Kate -

... when I grew up in Oregon, there were very few black people.  There were, instead, trash malls and nice malls ... Eastport Plaza, Mall 205 or the pre-renovation Lloyd Center versus Clackamas Town Center.

I lived there (Portland, Oregon) 1997-2005 and as of four years ago, Clackamas was still the most vigorously active of the malls.  Eastport was torn down prior to 97 and subsequently replaced by a Wal-Mart.  Mall 205 was still there but had nothing in it.  And Lloyd’s was okay, although most of the third floor had been converted to professional offices.  Compared to Louisiana, Oregon has a fairly small population of African-American people, but compared to Maine it’s positively cosmopolitan.

Comment #35: Thena, Sultana of Stale Raisin Bread  on  11/30  at  05:13 PM

Rugged in Montana is one of those parody-trolls, right?

Comment #36: Laureli  on  11/30  at  05:22 PM

“Rugged in Montana is one of those parody-trolls, right?”

...he’s at least as serious as The General...

Comment #37: MikeEss  on  11/30  at  05:26 PM

acidic Jews

Wow.  That would make sexual congress a very, very dangerous thing.

Comment #38: seeker6079  on  11/30  at  05:37 PM

Rugged originally hails from the wilds of Sadly, No!

Ask him about the badgers sometime. And the pelicans.

Comment #39: protected static  on  11/30  at  05:38 PM

Calling it a teen thing really gets you about as far as calling it an economic-status thing, i.e. not very far. Which teens get arrested or barred for shoplifting, and which ones get politely shipped home or requested to pay for the goods? Which malls put in which kinds of security to control teen aggression? (Oh, and of course, which teens get taught the their self-worth is bound up in visible aggression and in possessing stuff they can’t afford?)

As far as the experience goes, it’s also in the interest of the companies running stores at the high-end malls for there to be low-end malls, because otherwise it would be harder to justify the prices and the product churn. (There’s a really sad series of walmart commercials running where the mom—of course—crows about being able to buy clothes for her daughter—of course—that don’t look like they came from walmart. So her daughter won’t be shunned by all the other kids in her school. No one believes the pitch, of course, but running the ads counts in someone’s mind as addressing the problem.) And the low-end stuff gets bought because kids gotta have clothes, so terminal uncoolness doesn’t really impact sales. Except when it does.

Comment #40: paul  on  11/30  at  06:25 PM

i can’t take rugged in montana seriously. you know the stand up comic who is also a ventriliquist? RiM reminds me of his old guy dummy.


here in central ohio we used to have “black malls”. i loved them - they had all these nifty thingies, they were more like bazaars than malls. sadly, they are all office parks now, and the malls are all outside of columbus city limits (or close to it, anyway).

Comment #41: denelian  on  11/30  at  06:39 PM

...without fear of gang violence or hearing Luther Vandross over the sound system in months other than February.

That was beautiful. That made me laugh and it brightened up a crap day. Keep it up.

Comment #42: felagund  on  11/30  at  07:11 PM

The classiest store in our part of town (by clientele) is about the dumpiest place you’d ever seen outside a ghetto. It’s an old Italian deli/grocery store that moved there in 1970 (from an even smaller store) but the building was at least 10 years older than that, and not a thing inside the store has changed except what they sell. Still the same shelves, the same deli and vegetable cases, everything except the registers. They sell good imported stuff, expensive wines and cheeses, and have a sandwich shop with great sandwiches that’s always flooded at lunchtime. And they’re still making money. Trader Joe’s down the street could only wish to be so classy. I don’t mind TJ’s at all, but their food is so hit and miss that I always fear getting something new from there. Whole Foods can piss up a rope as far as I’m concerned. You see, our neighborhoods were too old for Whole Foods to take a flyer on putting up a store in the area, as they only go to the more affluent areas, and we were merely middle class. Trader Joe’s did come to us and it’s doing well, but it’s not as good a place for special food. It seems to cater to the trendy young. Someone else is trying to put up competition for the Italian deli, but are calling it “Good Eats”, a name I shudder at the association (a greasy spoon diner in a silent film). I bet they think it’s clever.

Comment #43: papa zita  on  11/30  at  08:52 PM

It’s interesting that he doesn’t even seem to make the obvious connection. The reason formerly ‘white’ malls become ‘minority’ malls is usually because the formerly white neighborhood in which the mall is located has become a minority neighborhood.
The Wheaton mall in the WaPo piece he links is walking distance from where I grew up. It was a thriving white mall back in the day. And the neighborhood was a thriving, almost completely white, suburban neighborhood. It’s become slowly and relentlessly poorer and darker over the years, as has the mall. White people don’t shop there anymore because white people don’t live there anymore.
It’s not exactly racism or classism. It’s geography and demographics.

Comment #44: flory  on  11/30  at  10:04 PM

Sometimes minority malls make good when they’re managed correctly. Meyerland Center in Houston was redeveloped as a Black/Jewish Mall in the rarly 90s. The same management company redeveloped Gulfgate a few years back. They noted that there was a lote more money moving around than the Census and IRS knew about, and that nearby Milby High way outperformed most schools with similar demographics. They bought Gulfgate and convnced Charles Butt of HEB fame to build a bigger than Wal-Mart superstore as the mall’s anchor. Gulfgate is hoppin’ today and the Butt family is raking in boocoo bux The same developers are looking into a redo of Sharpstown. If Chas Butt gets on board I’m sure it will be a success. Sharpstown has a huge population density, but it’s largely African-American and South Asian. It’s near a major freeway exit and the Harwin shopping district. Maybe the best of Harwin could move to the mall.

Only dying Black Mall I know of is Westwood out near the Harris/Ft Bend county line.

Comment #45: Bacopa  on  11/30  at  10:10 PM

Ooops. Sorry about the drug names there… Prilosec, some weird allergy medicine my guy asked me to get for him… all the same to me.

“Crap” malls certainly can make money. Older malls with downscale tenants can do great; they’re paid for, they’re past their projected lifespan but still full of rentpayers, and no expensive renovations or upkeep needed.

But really… what happens to really really dead malls? I mean empty, vacant, an ex-mall. I’ve never seen one come back from the dead, and only seen a couple actually lie down & expire; and I’ve only seen one actually torn down. And that was really just a giant strip mall.

Comment #46: Shell Goddamnit  on  12/01  at  12:26 AM

For a short time a couple years ago, I worked in a small store at one of the malls tipping between “white” and “black.” The mall was located right at the edge of the city. My manager made a comment one day that the increasing “ghetto-ness” was due to the recent increase in bus lines going to the mall and “bus people who never seemed to get on the bus.”

Of course, if it weren’t for those buses, he wouldn’t have been able to hire me or the other two employees, but whatever.

Comment #47: brista  on  12/01  at  12:27 AM

“But really… what happens to really really dead malls? I mean empty, vacant, an ex-mall. I’ve never seen one come back from the dead, and only seen a couple actually lie down & expire; and I’ve only seen one actually torn down. And that was really just a giant strip mall.”

In my area I’ve seen four dead malls get pulled down and renovated into other kinds of shopping areas.  One went for an outdoor small shop area, but since it is in a downtown area they’re having trouble convincing suburbanites to shop there.  One rebuilt successfully.  The other two transitioned from mall space to large areas with big box stores, no longer linked by an inner walk way.  Traditional mall stores were replaced by Target, Circuit City, Borders, Barnes & Noble, Best Buy…  you’ve seen that kind of shopping area, yes?  Except for the downtown one all of the renovations seem to have been successful.

Now I’m just left to wonder why the city I live in can’t permanently sustain a shopping area, but has to pull them down and rebuild them with such regularity.  And why won’t people shop downtown?

And why do we need so much shopping space to begin with?  Some of these neighborhoods could have used more parks.  There’s actually a big debate going on between advocates of wetland in a local undeveloped area vs. advocates of Home Depot.  In a city that already has two Home Depots that I can think of.  Who are the projected customers for all of these stores?

Black mall, white mall, downscale, upscale…  pah.  Maybe the problem with retail is that there’s too damned much of it.  These areas are unsustainable because NONE of us have enough money to keep them going.

Comment #48: Eileen  on  12/01  at  02:34 AM

Gee, where I’m from it becomes the white trash mall - filled with local shops that no one goes to unless they have to, which will always be the one or two I really want to go to because they actually have stuff I need.

Duh, prices go down, you get more marginalized and less bankrolled stores selling overpriced junk and having to actually keep operating in the black.  Sheesh.

Comment #49: Crissa  on  12/01  at  04:14 AM

What happens to old malls?

This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J60fdK6v22w

Comment #50: seeker6079  on  12/01  at  12:27 PM

Here in Houston, there seem to be places that become “black” simply because white folks are uncomfortable being around too many black people. There is a Joe’s Crab Shack and a Papadeaux’s Cajun restaurant near my house. The former is mostly white and the latter is mostly black. The black restaurant is much better.
Also, the nearest early voting location was nearly devoid of whites even though it was just as accessible to whites as to blacks.
So, Rod, Rugged, I think the answer is that white people are paranoid. And pussies.
Full disclosure: I am melanin deficient. (Really: four skin cancers so far!)

Comment #51: uncle noel  on  12/01  at  06:27 PM

I’ve heard of an old mall getting converted into a college (community, most likely). It had the parking, had the interior partitioning of space, and of course the cafeteria, already in its architectural bones.

Another trend is converting a large section of the former mall into a church. Full circle for American worship of consumerism. Rest of the week, the cineplex gets business.

Comment #52: Norvegica  on  12/01  at  06:32 PM

My local grocery store is Kroger. While my neighborhood has seen significant gentrification (i.e. wealthy white people moving in) in the last 15 years or so, ours is and seemingly always will be the “ghetto Kroger.” It’s not just that the selection is clearly aimed at a poorer customers, it’s that we always seem to get the older vegetables and the older milk, and at the exact same price for fresher products at the more upscale Kroger a few miles away. If we actually got a price break on take-your-chances-it-might-be-spoiled milk, that might be an acceptable trade off. Fat chance. I avoid Kroger, all Krogers, as much as I can, frankly. Kroger has made it clear that they don’t think much of the customers in my neighborhood, so frankly they can do without my business.

Comment #53: Theron  on  12/01  at  07:29 PM

Here in Houston, there seem to be places that become “black” simply because white folks are uncomfortable being around too many black people.

That does raise the issue of how we foreigners should handle that.  All you bloody Americans look the same to us.

Comment #54: seeker6079  on  12/01  at  07:43 PM

Dude, I live in a big-ass city that has no malls. I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Comment #55: Comrade PhysioProf  on  12/02  at  12:26 AM

So, Rod, Rugged, I think the answer is that white people are paranoid. And pussies.

Agree on the first part, please don’t gender the second part though. :p

Comment #56: Bagelsan  on  12/02  at  01:27 AM

On RiM:
““Acidic” Jews”—reference to Prilosec?
“Rites” for “Rights”—reference to Rite-Aid pharmancy?

Coincidence? I think not!

Comment #57: JCfromNC  on  12/02  at  03:47 AM

“So, Rod, Rugged, I think the answer is that white people are paranoid. And pussies. “

“Agree on the first part, please don’t gender the second part though.”

Sorry -  redneck roots showing.  How ‘bout “pansies”?

Comment #58: uncle noel  on  12/02  at  12:34 PM

I wonder if this is a spiral: does a mall start to falter economically, making it accessible to minorities with less money to spend, who frighten middle class white people (and middle class folks of other races) away?

No, you moron. The primary purpose of most shopping in this day and age is to display social status. When a mall becomes accessible to people with less money to spend, the middle classes run away because going there is no longer a demonstration of their middle-class status. You get seen going to the cheap mall, your neighbours might think you’re poor.

Not that I’m saying there definitely isn’t a racial dimension to the issue, but it seems primarily about class to me…

Comment #59: Dunc  on  12/02  at  01:42 PM

Sorry - redneck roots showing.  How ‘bout “pansies”?

That’s what I always try to morph my reflexive “pussy” comments into; the flowers have yet to complain. :D

Comment #60: Bagelsan  on  12/03  at  03:24 AM

Re pansies: But people think flowers are feminine - no matter how big their stamens are.

Comment #61: uncle noel  on  12/03  at  12:16 PM
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