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Next entry: Bamboo Review: A Total Kick In The Balls Previous entry: NYT op-ed on same-sex marriage presents a compromise

I’d love to put it to bed, but it’s still up and walking around

Pam’s piece below debunking the idea that the anti-gay lobby can be compromised with on gay marriage really got me to thinking, as did Jesse’s post on Lord Saletan trying to find some brilliant compromise on abortion.  I’m (shockingly) feeling 90% on Obama, which is much better than I’d hoped for at this point, but I think one effect of his campaign strategy is that the same old pundits (mostly straight and male and living in parts of the country where their friends and relatives have state protection) who think that they can put to bed the culture wars with a compromise here and a tweaking of semantics will be emboldened, because Obama somehow had the magic formula to chip off just enough socially conservative people to win an election during an economic crisis that put these issues on the back burner.  But putting Rick Warren up to pray at the inauguration will not put the culture war to bed, and compromises and semantics will not appease culture warriors.

There’s also a tendency to play “pox on both your houses” in these kind of articles that feels aesthetically pleasing, but unfortunately has no basis in reality.  Saletan’s the master of this, pretending that each side has one card it can give up, and peace will be at hand.  He has to tweak the facts to get there, particularly minimizing the importance of abstinence-only education and anti-contraception activism in the “pro-life” movement.  David Blankenhorn and Jonathan Rauch play this game by setting up a situation where both sides are equally motivated by goodness and purity, and that each side demonizes the other.  Pam’s retort says it all:

Sorry to say, our opponents are acting in bad faith. They attempt to sway positions with outright lies, such as conflating homosexuality with bestiality, thus leading to, say, man-goat nuptials, something that has nothing to do with any sane religious conviction, btw. That’s extremism and intellectually bankrupt fear-mongering. The problem with the religious right is that they don’t want any compromise, because the ultimate goal is to have government intervention and control on all matters of sex and reproductive freedom—those are issues that extend way beyond civil marriage or social security benefits for same-sex spouses.


I have never seen a “please, let’s compromise and put this to bed” article coming from the anti-gay or anti-choice faction.  At best, I’ve seen people who personally don’t like abortion, but are still pro-choice.  This interesting fact should tell them who is the side with all the stubborn people.  I personally don’t like to feel stubborn on these issues—-if there was a compromise that could put the war to bed with just a few minimal tweaks, I’d probably snatch it up—-but I know what Pam knows, that if we concede some ground, they’ll just demand more.  They’re not going to rest.  And so, sadly, neither can we.  That was the gist of this article I wrote for RH Reality Check that was a reply to Aspen Baker.  I feel it’s a tad unfair including this, because Aspen is not at all pushing a centrist angle—-I think she’s actually striving for a radical third way instead of a compromise third way—-so I want to make clear that I wasn’t really disagreeing with her about her strategy’s usefulness.  I just think that the traditional pro-choice rights-based approach complements it, and cannot be supplanted by her strategy.  I’m including it, because I made a point that I think is relevant, which is that the culture wars are long-standing and going nowhere because there is a genuine difference of values here, and values are not amendable by evidence in the same way differences of strategy might be.

The national conversation over abortion feels like war because it isn’t about abortion per se. It’s the most important battle in the struggle over the existence of the patriarchy.  The dictionary defines patriarchy as, “a form of social organization in which the father is the supreme authority in the family, clan, or tribe and descent is reckoned in the male line, with the children belonging to the father’s clan or tribe.”  This explains why abortion matters more than anything else—if we believe that “life” begins at conception, then the father gets all the credit for making children, and this in turn justifies male authority over women and official “ownership” of children.  If we believe that “life” begins at some other point in fetal development, then the credit for new people goes to women, and patriarchal justifications dry up.

The presumption that Blankenhorn, Saletan, Rauch, and pretty much all these dudes who think there’s a compromise point is that they can only make this argument by employing a false assumption, which is that since we’re all Americans (yes, these battles are worldwide, but they’re only speaking to Americans), we share a fundamental values system, and that the battles are about gradations of difference.  Therefore we can all just move over a little and tah-dah!  We all agree.  That’s why Saletan thinks that it will be easy enough for anti-choicers to give up their hostility to contraception and for pro-choicers to give up our belief that an embryo’s value is defined strictly by the mother.  And Blankenhorn and Rauch appear to think that the homobigots will be mollified by a few religious protections. And I sort of feel sorry for these dudes, because they are working under the assumption that everyone involved is arguing in good faith.  By doing so, they encourage cultural conservatives to continue the strategy of lying about their motivations, because it’s so effective.  It’s painfully obvious that the opposition to gay marriage isn’t rooted in a genuine fear that there will be religious persecution in a country that has strong protections for freedom of religion and speech.  Why?  Because the anti-gay marriage movement also supports sodomy laws, fights against hate crimes legislation, and otherwise, as Pam said, engages in dehumanizing gay people on a routine basis.  This isn’t and was never about freedom of religion.  It’s straight-up bigotry, and the only way to get the right to stop lying about this is to scoff when they lie.

The conservative and liberal views on culture and family issues are wildly different, and we have to face this with bravery.  I’d characterize the views as patriarchal and feminist, but use whatever words you wish.  The conservative view is rooted in hierarchy, authority, and conformity, and the liberal view is rooted in equality, freedom, and diversity.  The conservatives believe that the ideal is heterosexual, male-dominated marriage, and everyone who cannot or will not conform should be punished and shunned (which would make more people conform out of fear).  Liberals believe that people are more important than institutions, and if our institutions are making people unhappy—-and we consider gays and women to be people—-those institutions should change.  It would be nice if we all had the same values and merely disagreed about how to get there.  Compromise pushers would like to believe we’re all pro-people and just have a different strategy to get there.  But actually, I think we’re all in agreement on what the policy choices each side supports would do.  We both get that abortion bans and massive restrictions on contraception would probably lower the age of marriage, force women seeking abortions to risk their lives, and make it harder for women to pursue careers and agitate for equality within their marriages.  Both sides get that bans on gay marriage would reinforce homophobia and effectively punish gays for choosing relationships based on desire and not on duty.  We just disagree on whether or not these are good things.  Unfortunately for all of us, one side’s going to have to win out before this is over.

The good news is that our side is winning.  Not as fast as we’d like, no, but we are winning.  Not if we give up, no, but as long as we keep fighting, there’s no reason to think we won’t win this one.  The fact that one side has to lie about their motivations and the other can be pretty straightforward tells you who has the upper hand on the values argument.  We do. Which is why it’s important to refuse to play into right wing narratives about how this is about religious freedom or fetal life or whatever decoy they set up to sucker the well-meaning.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:41 PM • (28) Comments

Not if we give up, no, but as long as we keep fighting, there’s no reason to think we won’t win this one.

The most telling thing in that editorial for me was the acknowledgment that over a third of young evangelicals feel that same-sex couples have the right to have legal recognition of their partnerships. That’s the last bastion for the religious right on this issue and it’s crumbling, which just reinforces the idea that we’re going to win this battle.

Comment #1: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  02/23  at  01:53 PM

With gay marriage, it really seems to be just a matter of time, though all the states with amendments certainly will make it a more difficult process than it would have been without them. One more reason NOT to take the compromise offered by Blankenhorn and Rauch, not create a separate institution, and just take the long view that eventually we’ll get what we want and what folks deserve, even if it takes another generation.

With reproductive rights, I think it’s pretty noteworthy that attacks on contraception both on the access front and on the morality front really increased during the Bush administration. Abortion is still legal, but these people felt the end was near and they already were pressing the attack into new arenas. Also, the way opposition to contraception has really increased among evangelicals, who for the most part used to have no problem with it within marriage, is concerning. I’d like to think we’ll win this one too, but it often feels like we’re actually moving backward.

Amanda’s point that all these “compromise” solutions assume we all have the same fundamental values, when really we don’t, is very well made.

Comment #2: chingona  on  02/23  at  02:12 PM

Thank you, Amanda. I’ve been guilty of the pox-on-both-houses approach myself (usually with regard to Israel and the Palestinians), but I agree that it’s usually intellectually lazy and very annoying.

Also, as commenters noted in Jesse’s previous post, Saletan has been flogging this can’t-we-all-just-get-along stuff on abortion for years now. Give it up, Will, it ain’t gonna happen.

Comment #3: Bitter Scribe  on  02/23  at  02:14 PM

I like the way you’ve framed the issues and couldn’t agree more that there is no compromising with the anti-choice people.  It is going to be about winning and losing and they are not nice losers.  The fact that one side, “has to lie about their motivations” does suggest who has the upper hand on the values or logic of the argument, but unfortunately, they do not respect or play by the rules of debate, argument or anything else.  Power is what it will come down to and they are quite willing to murder their adversaries in their sleep.  Eric Rudolph is still held in high esteem by many of them.  This will not be easy.

There is one dichotomy in the patriarchal culture and values that I have first hand experience with and trouble understanding.  When an American service person fathers a child overseas that child is prohibited from claiming or being claimed by the father for the purposes of citizenship, quite the contrary for an American female service person.  The Islamic patriarchal cultures of the Middle East confer citizenship based on the citizenship of the child’s father, never mind if the child was born and lives with the mother of a different nationality and/or culture, etc.  The child grows up in a place like Egypt and can’t play on school teams or even work without somehow obtaining citizenship in his/her home country via marriage or some other method, none of which or easy.  This may seem somewhat off topic, but I think it illustrates some of the unforeseen and unpredictable consequences of this religious, cultural based thinking and how the same fundamentally flawed thinking/logic can lead to entirely different results neither of which are really defensible on human rights, values or logical grounds.

Comment #4: knowdoubt  on  02/23  at  03:06 PM

With reproductive rights, I think it’s pretty noteworthy that attacks on contraception both on the access front and on the morality front really increased during the Bush administration. Abortion is still legal, but these people felt the end was near and they already were pressing the attack into new arenas. Also, the way opposition to contraception has really increased among evangelicals, who for the most part used to have no problem with it within marriage, is concerning. I’d like to think we’ll win this one too, but it often feels like we’re actually moving backward.

Seconded.

Comment #5: Seraph  on  02/23  at  03:25 PM

The most telling thing in that editorial for me was the acknowledgment that over a third of young evangelicals feel that same-sex couples have the right to have legal recognition of their partnerships. That’s the last bastion for the religious right on this issue and it’s crumbling, which just reinforces the idea that we’re going to win this battle.

Absolutely. Time is on our side on this- and on other “social issues” (i.e. I’m more optimistic than chingona), and not all that much time will be needed, either.  And I think that’s exactly why fuckers like Saletan want to promote bullshit “compromises”- they know that’s the only way they can avoid losing altogether

Comment #6: Steve LaBonne  on  02/23  at  04:10 PM

The problem with evangelicals is give ‘em an inch, they’ll take a mile.

The inches they won on abortion, made them take the road a mile down the outlawing of contraception. (So we’re back to the 1920s when evangenlicals fought legal contraception tooth and nail.)

We may be winning young evangelicals, but I wonder what else in sexual freedom they’ll go back in time to go after, when they’re losing on their only topics: gays and abortion.

Comment #7: judybrowni  on  02/23  at  04:22 PM

The fact that one side has to lie about their motivations and the other can be pretty straightforward tells you who has the upper hand on the values argument.  We do.

Oh, I want to hug you!

Comment #8: asdf  on  02/23  at  04:28 PM

Whether they say it or not, the opposition to same-sex marriage is driven more by the desire to preserve the patriarchy than by any real need to oppress gay folk as such.  Whey they say “marriage is a relationship between a man and a woman”, the un-spoken next phrase is “in which the man is in charge”. 

The answer they won’t be honest enough to give you when you ask “How does allowing someone else to have a same-sex marriage affect or undermine your man-woman marriage?” is simply: “if marriage can include two men, or no men, then the man being in charge must not be a fundamental part of the relationship.”

Comment #9: Dirty Davey  on  02/23  at  04:28 PM

Trusting the Religious Right in negotiations is like trusting Hamas.  Oh, I forgot….

Comment #10: Magis  on  02/23  at  05:06 PM

Whether they say it or not, the opposition to same-sex marriage is driven more by the desire to preserve the patriarchy than by any real need to oppress gay folk as such.

It might have been a post here that made the light bulb go off for me. When people chortle and ask questions like “So which one is the man?” they really do reveal themselves. They don’t see marriage as a partnership between two people. They cannot conceive of it without dominance and ownership.

Comment #11: chingona  on  02/23  at  05:47 PM

When an American service person fathers a child overseas that child is prohibited from claiming or being claimed by the father for the purposes of citizenship, quite the contrary for an American female service person.

Nonsense!  See 8 USC 1401.

Comment #12: rea  on  02/23  at  06:05 PM

“And I sort of feel sorry for these dudes, because they are working under the assumption that everyone involved is arguing in good faith.”

Brava.

Comment #13: BetsyTX  on  02/23  at  07:22 PM

Oh you, again. I go back a couple of decades on that one, maybe its changed, laws do constantly change, but the attitudes, well not so fast.  I’m looking at you.  Certainly, it wasn’t nonsense for Vietnam era veterans.

Yes, apparently it’s changed, probably as a result of the Vietnam Experience.  The point was the patriarchal cultural attitudes and values that existed at a point in time, in the MidEast and here, not a legal brief.  I know from personal experience.  I was the legal guardian for a kid in just that situation and helped him finally achieve some immigrate status in the U.S so he could work.  One of my prouder accomplishments.  The situation in the mideast is still the same to the best of my knowledge.  Thanks for bringing us up to date on the current state of the law in that particular area, you are a credit your profession.  References are always appreciated.

Comment #14: knowdoubt  on  02/23  at  09:08 PM

Yes, apparently it’s changed, probably as a result of the Vietnam Experience.

Looks like it changed about 1934.

Comment #15: rea  on  02/23  at  09:24 PM

Certainly, it wasn’t nonsense for Vietnam era veterans.

Actually, knowdoubt does have a point.  Until recently men had a difficult time bringing their children born overseas to foreign mothers into the country, basically because the government’s attitude was, “Well, how can you be sure that’s really your kid?  Maybe she was screwing someone else, too.”  And the problem was primarily in those Vietnam-era situations where the guy would have a fling, go home, and then find out afterwards that a child had resulted.  If you were moving back to the US with your foreign-born legal wife and child(ren), it was a lot easier to prove they were actually your kids with birth certificates, registration with the consulate/embassy when the kids were born (assuming they weren’t born on America soil ie an overseas military base), etc.

It’s probably a whole heck of a lot more easily dealt with in this age of DNA testing, but there was definitely a problem with this in the 1970s and 1980s as some men discovered they’d left children behind in Asia and wanted to bring them to the US (obviously, with the mother’s consent—these were not custody disputes) but the State Department argued that they couldn’t be sure of paternity, so they ran into a huge amount of red tape trying to prove that their children were their children.

It’s easier with a American mother whose child is born overseas since the question is pretty much, “Did it come out of your uterus?  Great, citizen.”

Comment #16: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  09:48 PM

Did I mention that this problem suddenly started springing up when servicemen wanted to bring their half-Asian children into the country instead of their half-European kids as in WWII?  I think it was implied, but I thought I should point that out.

Comment #17: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  10:13 PM

rea, I see the your head is still firmly wedged far up the small intestine .  Somethings just never change, I thought for a moment you were right, I should have known better.

I was referring to children born out of wedlock see here the last paragraph in the text reads as follows,“a person born, after December 23, 1952, outside the United States and out of wedlock shall be held to have acquired at birth the nationality status of his mother, if the mother had the nationality of the United States at the time of such person’s birth, and if the mother had previously been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year.”

If you read the text above the quote in the link I have provided you will see an entirely different situation for an American father of a child born out of wedlock in a foreign country.  The child can obtain citizenship, something that I’m not sure was possible during the Vietnam war era.  Still, it outlines a much different scenario for obtaining citizenship for a child of the Father.  The father has to agree to provide support in writing, a blood relationship has to be established by clear and convincing evidence, the child has to be under 18, has to be legitimated under the laws of the country of residence, the father has to acknowledge paternity under oath and in writing, and last but not least the child’s paternity must be established by a court of competent jurisdiction.

Once again, I don’t have time to waste on you, do you have anything to actually contribute to a discussion or are you just a practicing troll, as well as, just another incompetent lawyer.  The example from Egypt I offered was of a married couple, they don’t really deal in out of wedlock children, they just don’t exist from the governmental standpoint, you only find them on the street.  I won’t be responding to your bullshit in the future.  This wasn’t about legal technicalities in the first place I would be pleased to suggest some legal blogs where you might strut your stuff.

Comment #18: knowdoubt  on  02/23  at  10:18 PM

I was referring to children born out of wedlock see here the last paragraph in the text reads as follows,“a person born, after December 23, 1952, outside the United States and out of wedlock shall be held to have acquired at birth the nationality status of his mother, if the mother had the nationality of the United States at the time of such person’s birth, and if the mother had previously been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year.”

Note the date:  right when servicemen in Korea would have been starting to think about trying to bring their half-Asian children to the US.

There was absolutely a racist tinge to why they changed the law at that particular time.  We tend to underestimate these days how strong anti-Asian sentiment was until very recently.

Comment #19: Mnemosyne  on  02/23  at  10:49 PM

The relevant code section to what I was referring to, is title 8, 1409, not 1401, not suggesting that anyone here would be interested, but since he raised the issue we might as well get on the right page.  Initially, I just didn’t want to do the research assuming that being an attorney he knew what he was talking about, that is never a smart assumption for anyone dealing with an attorney, except possibly very rare cases.  These cases I would relate to pornography hard to define, but you know it when you see it.  I first looked up the code section he referred to and in my haste failed to realize that it was dealing with married people not out of wedlock children.  Haste makes waste, every time.

Comment #20: knowdoubt  on  02/23  at  10:53 PM

Knowdoubt, of course you’ve modified your claim, so you are not talking generally about “When an American service person fathers a child overseas that child is prohibited from claiming or being claimed by the father for the purposes of citizenship, quite the contrary for an American female service person,” but instead are talking about the special provisions governing citizenship of children born out of wedlock.  I suppose it’s my fault that you meant something other than what you said.

Paternity is more difficult to prove than maternity, but that just reflects the fact that mothers are the ones to give birth, and that chidlren born out of wedlock in foriegn countries tend to end up in the possession of the local rather than the American. 

Curious you call me a troll—I’ve been a regular commentor here since 2002, and you to the best of my recollection, are something of a newbie.  But by all means, continue to come here and badmouth the chosen profession of the site’s founder; I’m sure he finds boorish insults amusing . . .

Comment #21: rea  on  02/24  at  01:04 AM

As you’ve pointed out earlier (I think, maybe I’m just dizzy from it being 5 am), another problem of compromising is that we already have a de facto compromise solution (at least on the matter of abortion). To “compromise” with the opposition to it in this situation would only be pandering to extremists.

Comment #22: AndersH  on  02/24  at  01:08 AM

Fellow citizens of the web and pandagon in particular, I meant what I said and I stand by what I said.  If I had been writing a legal brief, which I wasn’t, I would have made very clear that I was talking about children born out of wedlock when I said, “When an American Service person fathers a child overseas.” Most people would understand that statistically and otherwise that would be out of wedlock.  Most service people overseas do not have family accompanying them especially during wartime.  I have not modified my so called “claim,” a term usually used for a legal filing, which it was not, but explained it for others who might be confused by rea’s determination to engage in what I consider intellectual dishonesty and just plain rankism.  I was sharing experience, experiences may be different for different people and circumstances but they don’t lie.  They are real life, not the useless posturing of legal stature.

The statement that, “Paternity is more difficult to prove than maternity, but that just reflects the fact that mothers are the ones to give birth, and that children born out of wedlock in foreign countries tend to end up in the possession of the local rather than the American.”  is another example of, never in doubt but seldom if ever right, in my experience with him.  I’ sure everyone is aware that for some time now reproductive assistance great story here renders the idea that just because a baby emerges from a mothers womb there can be no assumptions concerning either the genetic maternity or paternity.  It simply means she carried the baby either as a surrogate or some other type of arrangement.  Once again, as I pointed out earlier, in countries like Egypt (Islamic), out of wedlock babies aren’t in the possession of anyone except whomever happens to be physically holding them at the moment.  In Egypt they have no status, legal or otherwise, and to execute the requirements of 8 USC 1409 would be virtually impossible.

If I believed I needed or was beholden to rea’s charitable, benevolence for being allowed to comment on this blog I wouldn’t be here for one second and would never look back.  His benevolence would be better saved for someone who might appreciate it or accept it, that would not be me.

Continued next comment:

Comment #23: knowdoubt  on  02/24  at  09:48 AM

I have nothing but respect for Jesse Taylor,  and meant him no disrespect, as I’m sure he is aware.  I have the greatest respect for the principles, ideals and laws that our country is founded on.  As a citizen and a patriot I feel it’s my duty to object when they have been corrupted.  Rea is engaging in the same type of argument that got the country into the mess it is in.  Equating honest disagreement with something despicable, like objecting to the war with Iraq was equated to treason or disrespect or disregard for some sacred icon like our troops or in this case Jesse Taylor.  I stand by my comments about the “profession” and it’s need for reform, your willingness to engage in intellectual dishonesty, despite a professional education, illustrates the problem better than I ever could.  I’m not saying there isn’t a “good” (as in moral, ethical, competent with values for human life) attorney out there, I’m just saying I haven’t meet one.  The “profession,” in it’s present form, is certainly stacked against those kind of people surviving or maintaining those moral and ethical standards should they enter it, especially after the rigorous indoctrination of law school.  Not all individuals that enter law school desire to become attorneys and some decide at some point that a career in the “legal profession” as an attorney is not for them.  Some graduates of law school use their knowledge in other ways.  I wish Jesse the best in his so called “chosen career,”  but it would far worse to participate in perpetuating a fraud than to speak honestly and forthrightly about the legal profession.  I would hate to look back and realize I had spent my life in something that was morally corrupt, bankrupt, and a burden on society and that all I had achieved was financial wealth and rank.  I don’t think Jesse would either.  Education in general and a knowledge of law in particular will and would benefit anyone.  A knowledge of law has certainly become more and more important to survival in our society, if nothing more to defend against the predators out there practicing intimidation and rankism, torturing language and logic to the point that it becomes meaningless, rea exemplifies this behavior and has provided some rather stunning examples.  I’m a “newbie”  and find nothing to be ashamed of there.  I remain unconvinced and unimpressed that rea’s self bestowed “status” having commented, or would that have been sniped, since 2002 gives him any more rights or entitlements than any other citizen of the web.  If my continuing, “to come here and badmouth the chosen profession of the site’s founder; I’m sure he finds boorish insults amusing . . . “ is not found to be amusing or acceptable by the founder or the author of the post, certainly I would remove myself post haste sans blocking.  Definition of a troll is here if the shoe fits wear it, you earned it.

Comment #24: knowdoubt  on  02/24  at  09:50 AM

“Rea is engaging in the same type of argument that got the country into the mess it is in. “

Perhaps you should moderat your hyperbole a bit. And the bashing of the legal profession is unnecessary too.

Comment #25: _IM_  on  02/24  at  01:08 PM

IM, As I said, criticizing a corrupt illegal war has been equated to treason, arguing to get out of this illegal war ahs been equated to not supporting the troops, and criticizing the legal profession is equated to bashing.  I am only more convinced that sort of reasoning and attempt to stifle honest dissent got us where we are, which is a very deep hole.

I find it difficult if not impossible to respect intellectual dishonesty, try as I might, particularly in a profession that prides itself on generally unenforced codes of ethics and conduct.  here is an example from the latimes.  The Supreme Court is going to hear this case despite its own Justice Scalia refusing to recuse himself from a very public case of just this same appearance of a possible conflict of interest.  When Scalia refused to recuse himself there was no functioning check or balance to help him make the right decision.

The example of a judge in this case receiving a 3 million dollar campaign donation from a litigant and then refusing to recuse himself is so over the top as to be ludicrous.  The case and outcome will likely ignore the much more pervasive and lesser scale conflicts that are routinely ignored.  I am unaware of the hyperbole you refer to, you and I just disagree, in probably more ways than one.  I certainly respect your opinion as long as it is honest.  If the criticisms I offered are factual and true, then “bashing” might also qualify as a little exercise in hyperbole.

Comment #26: knowdoubt  on  02/24  at  02:20 PM

P.S. Color me unrepentant

Comment #27: knowdoubt  on  02/24  at  02:21 PM

Hell, I might as well go all the way and commit the ultimate “contempt of court,” if you don’t see the truth in this then there’s no hope for you, my apologies to the aspiring Judge Taylor, founder of the blog, and all who may be offended in advance.  offered in a state of continuing contrition

Comment #28: knowdoubt  on  02/24  at  02:45 PM
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