Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Island of the Mail Order Brides Previous entry: Time to bring back the term “feudalism”

Ideas vs. identity, redux

Religion

Earlier today, I made fun of the Vatican for offering a 6-day window of opportunity to get yourself to Madrid for World Youth Day, and get absolution for your abortion so that you don't have to go to hell.  This sort of thing is catnip for me---misogyny plus bone-headedness plus religious nonsense!---and so I blogged about it for XX Factor, making a special note of how the Vatican's backwards teachings about abortion and contraception are both driving off believers and causing those remaining to basically ignore Church teachings and do what they want anyway.  I argued that the options already being taken by American Catholics---leave, or stay but do what you want---struck me as much better reactions to the Vatican's vicious misogyny than busting your ass trying to get forgiveness for doing something that wasn't wrong to begin with.  The church is wrong about reproductive health; the majority of American Catholics (I'm limiting my remarks to this country because that's what I'm familiar with, though it's worth noting that Spain, where the event is being held, has a high abortion rate, too) who are pro-choice and pro-contraception, are right.

This point of view brought down the inevitable calvacade of people claiming that I "hate" Catholics.  The most amusing of these accusations came from Michael Doughtery, who called me a "Know Nothing", and then when I challenged him on it, was unable to really explain how my view---that the Catholic Church is a corrupt institution that Catholics are wisely rejecting---has anything to do with the virulent opposition to immigration from Catholic countries that gave birth to the actual Know Nothing Party.  I remain firm in my belief that there's a difference between criticizing a church (an institution), an ideology, and a group of people grouped by ethnicity or religious heritage.  I think these distinctions are important, though I suppose that I, as a white person who, like Doughtery, has an "ethnic Catholic" last name that would have attracted negative opinions from Know Nothings, can sympathize some with his concerns that an antebellum political party could mean trouble for us. None of my readings on Know Nothings inclines me to think that they'd be open to my arguments that I'm not Catholic, but atheist.  

But even though the Know Nothing Party fell apart during the Civil War, I do think it's important for people to know about the Know Nothings, who did have a long-term negative impact on our nation and who had attitudes that are still very strong in our current political culture.  Here's a helpful About page that details out who the Know-Nothings were:

The Know-Nothings and their anti-immigrant and anti-Irish fervor became a popular movement for a time. Lithographs sold in the 1850s depict a young man with the caption, "Uncle Sam's Youngest Son, Citizen Know Nothing." The Library of Congress, which holds a copy of such a print, describes it by noting the portrait is "representing the nativist ideal of the Know Nothing Party."...

Lincoln noted that if the Know-Nothings ever took power, the Declaration of Independence would have to be amended to say that all men are created equal "except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." Lincoln went on to say he would rather emigrate to Russia, where despotism is out in the open, then live in such an America.

The basic premise of the party was a strong, if not virulent, stand against immigration and immigrants. Know-Nothing candidates had to be born in the United States. And there was also a concerted effort to agitate to change the laws so that only immigrants who had lived in the US for 25 years could become citizens.

Hmmmm..... I do think there is a modern equivalent of this heated opposition to immigration from a heavily Catholic country.  It's not the Irish that are hated now so much as Mexicans, however.  I'm not really seeing it come from myself.  In fact, I have a solid public record of avid support for the immigrants who I believe are being unfairly maligned.  

I do see some people, however, who have inherited this tradition of hostility to immigrants and claims that said immigrants are too different to assimilate and therefore must be kept out of our borders. Contrast the Republican Party platform with regards to the new Irish, i.e. Mexican immigrants, with the Democratic platform regarding the same group of people.  The GOP insists on treating immigrants like a threat to our way of life to be dealt with by fences, severe penalties, and using quotas to get "desireable" immigrants in while leaving "undesirable" ones out---which was exactly what the Know-Nothings wanted!  Democrats are still to the right of my views of immigration, but they have a much better platform, emphasizing making it easier for people to immigrate here and making living conditions for immigrants much better.  I'm all for that!  Unlike the Know-Nothings, I believe the immigrants from the heavily Catholic country south of us are a net gain for our society, and I'm grateful for a childhood spent on the border between these two great nations.

The Know Nothings engaged in some ugly stereotyping of their new Catholic, immigrant neighbors.  They treated Catholic immigrants like they were strange weirdos they had nothing in common with, portraying them as dirty, rowdy, drunken and unable to assimilate. They especially denied that Catholics had the ability to make up their own minds on political issues, but instead were in the thrall of Catholic teachings.  This view existed in some form until John Kennedy was elected President.  

So it's a fair question: Do I believe that American Catholics are an intelligent, independent-minded, diverse people who one shouldn't indulge in stereotypes about?  Let's look at the post in question:

If that currently seems like too high a mountain to climb, since you really don't know what you'd do with all your new free time on Sunday mornings, you can also just stay with the Church and pointedly ignore the misogyny while keeping your mouth shut about your conflicting views and behaviors. This option is also wildly popular. Twenty-eight percent of women getting abortions identify as Catholic, which is actually higher than the percentage of Americans overall who are Catholic. I'm not seeing the Vatican excommunicating them all, so that's a lot of women telling their doctors they're Catholic but not telling their priests that they've had abortions. And even though the Vatican claims that contraception is a no-no, 98 percent of Catholic women just ignore that ignorant edict and use it anyway. If being an American Catholic meant doing what the church tells you to do, there wouldn't be any American Catholics.

Hmmmm.... Reading that paragraph three or four times over, I keep getting the feeling that what I'm actually saying is that American Catholics aren't beholden to the church and tend to prefer their own personal authority over church teachings.  Now, I will go a step further and say that even if American Catholics tended to be more obedient to church teachings, I still wouldn't criticize them as a group.  That's their business, not mine.  Now if a group fights legal abortion or contraception, I retain the right to fight for my religious freedom not to have their dogma pushed on me by law.  But honestly, American Catholics aren't, as a people, doing that.  They basically see these things the same as non-Catholics, in roughly the same numbers.  The only people I see actually getting essentialist about Catholics are religious extremists trying to claim you can't be a "real" Catholic and pro-choice. 

Doughtery, in a fit of high emotion, compared criticizing the church's teachings and politics to burning down a Catholic church.  The question is, do I have a public record of beliefs about the right of religious people to have places to gather and worship, even if I disagree with their religion's teachings? Why yes, I do!  I have spoken out repeatedly about people who use terror and political pressure to intimidate people out of freely worshipping.  I don't think anyone is out of line for trying to persuade others to their point of view, but I believe that should occur strictly in the world of intellectual discourse.  Anyway, I'm skeptical that most religious bigotry is rooted in actual religious differences, but is more like that of the Know-Nothings, intertwined in ethnic and class hatreds, and religions is only used as a weapon in these deeper battles.  

As someone who gets hate mails and threats for my religious beliefs (that there aren't gods and aren't souls---a man who threatened to kill me and many others roughly a dozen times a day because we don't believe in god has finally been arrested), I'm actually acutely aware of how this all works.  But as someone who isn't a drama queen or interested in playing the victim, I'm extremely outspoken on drawing a big, thick line between the criticism of beliefs---even in colorful language---and discriminating against actual people.  In my experience, people who conflate the two are being intellectually dishonest in purpose of some larger agenda. 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 04:07 PM • (34) Comments

It’s easier to play the victim when you take everything personally, whether or not a criticism is actually directed at you.  Whether corporate or religious, these institutions somehow manage to convince a number of people that their personal identity and being is under attack when the higher-ups make awful decisions and are rightly criticized.  While I understand that many people DO have an identity tied up in their religion, the dissonance required to follow the leader (espeically when he’s supposedly got a direct line to an all-loving being), yet ignore the truly horrific things he or she is capable of, is really disturbing.  In the wake of the Catholic pedophilia scandal, I have encountered far more Catholics outraged by the anger directed towards the Church than outraged by the reality that grown men were assaulting children without recourse (anecdote isn’t the plural, I know, but it’s been an observation of mine nonetheless).  “Blind follower” is a depressingly accurate term.

Comment #1: Secret Agent Norman  on  08/17  at  04:58 PM

Sexual orientation is not a choice but religion is.

Comment #2: typist  on  08/17  at  05:01 PM

And I think we should refrain from judging people who are caught up in the religious lifestyle, we should try to help them and love them so that they don’t engage in that self destructive behavior anymore.

Comment #3: typist  on  08/17  at  05:02 PM

“But as someone who isn’t a drama queen or interested in playing the victim, I’m extremely outspoken on drawing a big, thick line between the criticism of beliefs—-even in colorful language—-and discriminating against actual people.  In my experience, people who conflate the two are being intellectually dishonest in purpose of some larger agenda.”

Absolutely.  However, apparently far too nuanced and perceptive for many Americans…

Comment #4: MikeEss  on  08/17  at  05:06 PM

OMG that’s wonderful news about Dennis!  Good for you and PZ and Fred Clark and everybody who’s been working so hard for this!

Comment #5: Josh  on  08/17  at  05:14 PM

Comment #1: Secret Agent Norman—my contrary anecdata is that more Catholics were outraged by the behavior of the offending bishops and priests.  Donations to the Church plummeted and people felt deeply betrayed.  I know several people who left the Church over it, and many others who expressed their anger and outrage in other ways. 

Also, you don’t know if the Catholic women who have abortions are or are not telling their priests—confession is private (it’s even legally privileged, meaning you cannot compel a priest to testify about anything he heard via confession).  They might be confessing to having abortions, receiving absolution, and doing penance, all without anyone knowing.  (Probably not contraception, though.  I’m pretty sure they’re all on the Pill and not confessing because they don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.)

It’s worth pointing out here that Catholics are in favor of legalizing same-sex marriage by a larger percentage than Americans as a whole.  American Catholicism has a big split between traditionalists and the oft-called “West Coast Catholics.”  I’ve attended churches all over the country, and different parishes can be really different.  Because of the “ethnic”/heritage component of Catholicism it, like Judaism, is really diverse.

Comment #6: Kit-Kat  on  08/17  at  05:23 PM

I don’t hate Catholics- but I do hold them in contempt. There is no longer an excuse for any decent person to be associated with what we now know is a criminal organization from top to bottom. They have the choice to walk across the street to the Episcopalian church where they can get much the same brand of bunkum but without the criminality. But they CHOOSE not to do that.

Comment #7: Steve LaBonne  on  08/17  at  05:31 PM

Kit, since the church recommends excommunication for abortion, I get the impression it’s not something you can just confess away, like, “Father, I was nasty to my sister.”

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/17  at  05:37 PM

No, you have to have the excommunication lifted (the bishop or a priest to whom he’s delegated authority does this, and I think it can be done in the confessional prior to confession) and then you can confess it and receive absolution.

Comment #9: Kit-Kat  on  08/17  at  05:39 PM

But again, we’d almost certainly have no way of knowing whether or not women were doing this.

Comment #10: Kit-Kat  on  08/17  at  05:42 PM

@ typist

Sexual orientation is not a choice but religion is.

I don’t know, I don’t think I could chose to sincerely believe in the worldview of any religion.  I’m being half-sarcastic and half serious about this.  I became an atheist because I just could not believe in the Church (or any other church).  It feels more like a transformative realization than a choice.

Comment #11: Richard Goblin  on  08/17  at  05:47 PM

American Catholicism has a big split between traditionalists and the oft-called “West Coast Catholics.”

I think one difference was that Catholicism was established in the West Coast well before Protestanism, the only exception being the Russian settlements of course, so there was never the soil for Know-Nothingism that existed on the East Coast.

Post-Civil War, the Chinese immigrants became an object of resentment and hate,  one could argue that they played the part of the Immigrant Other that Irish, Italian, and other Catholic/Caucasoid immigrants were cast in on the East Coast.

Amanda, I think you struck a nerve because the ‘deal’ you mention isn’t that unusual in Church history.

During WWII on the West Coast, it was a common practice for indulgences to be given to Catholic laypeople who helped in the war effort in some way,  so that you could eat meat on Friday and not have to spend some time in purgatory for doing so.

Comment #12: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/17  at  05:48 PM

Knowing what I know of human nature and having spent more time around Catholics than any other religious group, I’m going to guess that the percentage of Catholic women going through that is infinitesimal.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/17  at  05:48 PM

That article was full of win. 

It’s distressing just how much people attack you for being hilarious instead of polite and smile-y when you talk about religion.  Even non-Catholics are uncomfortable with it, proving yet again that humor isn’t for the faint of heart.

Those freaks probably crack up while reading Family Circus.

Comment #14: stubbles  on  08/17  at  06:15 PM

The only point Catholics get is that the conscience is primary.  So when they all use contraception,, it’s because they truly believe the priests are WRONG and know in their hearts they aren’t committing a sin.  No need to confess, because there’s no sin.

Yes, you’re supposed to be led by the hierarchy, but when they are so obviously wrong and talking about something they have no personal experience with, it’s very easy to discount them.

The Pope and his cronies hate that, but it’s a piece of dogma from before VII.

It’s why so many Catholics stay. If a priest or bishop is wrong, it doesn’t mean the Church, which is supposed to be the people, is wrong.  The community might still be good.  And God can still be good.  And Jesus an still be right, it’s just this one priest that’s wrong.  Or these dozen priests.  Or all the bishops.

Personally, I couldn’t stomach it any more, and am so glad to be out every time we hear about a new atrocity.  But it was a long slow process to get out.

Comment #15: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/17  at  07:08 PM

“West Coast” Catholicism tends to be more liberal, more progressive, more influenced by the social justice threads in Catholic theology, including liberation theology.  The liturgy is more inclusive, the churches are more likely to do interfaith stuff, etc.  Actually, some urban parishes are also more liberal in those ways, and it certainly isn’t limited to the West Coast.  One of the reasons the Church has hung on so long, I suppose, it that it has the capacity to include very different versions of the religion.  In any case, liberal Catholics are generally really liberal, and Catholicism as a whole has come a long was from the days of Galileo.  I’d say it’s made its peace with science, it’s always had a vibrant intellectual culture, and it has long accepted that the Bible is not to be read literally.  Catholics don’t have to pretend that the world was created in seven days and that dinosaurs co-existed with humans.  Plus, it’s got a long history of critiquing capitalism, so you don’t see the same Gospel of Prosperity crap.  Its biggest issues have to do with sexuality and gender—but of course, those are doozies.

Comment #16: Kit-Kat  on  08/17  at  07:17 PM

Actually, the primacy of conscience is huge—it means that even if the Church tells you to do something, if you truly and sincerely believe it’s wrong, it would be a sin to do it.  It’s also the case the Church is all the people, not just the hierarchy, so one can believe that eventually the hierarchy will come around because it is out of line with the true Church.  And frankly, it’s happened before—the Church corrected itself on slavery, for example.  So many Catholics stay because for them, it’s like a family.  Your family could have some fucked-up people in it, but a lot of them are really great people, and you’d rather stay in and try to work things out than abandon your family.

Comment #17: Kit-Kat  on  08/17  at  07:21 PM

Having been to WYD once in my life (Denver ‘93), I’m going to go ahead and guess that they might want to get their abortion forgiveness in advance. (At least that’s what I’m guessing… sadly, I don’t know from personal experience.)

Comment #18: BrianX  on  08/17  at  07:38 PM

@Kit-Kat: You truly are a contemptible human being, making excuses for the most evil institution in the world.

You wanna talk about the church as a family that shouldn’t be abandoned?

What about all the Africans who have been abandoned to their deaths from AIDS by the church whose anti-contraception propaganda took precedence over their health?

What about all the children the church abandoned to their fates after placing them with pedophile priests and then denying them the justice they demanded as victims?

As a former catholic, I didn’t stay to ‘work things out’ with a worldwide child raping institution of religious fascists. And I don’t take kindly to anyone suggesting that I abandoned the Church.

But they changed their minds about slavery after supporting the practice for centuries, despite the fact that they are supposed to be the arbiters of perfect morality given to them by God himself. So that makes it all OK.

And besides, the church is the people. Not the hierarchy that builds all the churches, hires all the priests, decides what is to be preached and promotes the fascist political agenda of the church worldwide. Oh no, not at all. It’s the people with zero control over how the church conducts its business who are the TRUE church. And we should applaud them too, despite the fact they funnel money to said church, making the promotion of its fascist agenda possible.

Thanks, but no thanks. My standards are a little too high to accept such pathetic apologies for evil.

Protectors of child rapists responsible for the deaths of millions and the promotion of a racist bigotted homophobic misogynist fascist ideology I don’t consider worthy of the love reserved for my family.

And I tend to treat with contempt those who do.

Comment #19: Toronto Atheist  on  08/17  at  08:24 PM

I generally consider Catholics to be more of a cultural marker than a religious one, similar to many Jews. I only know a couple of Jews that are really observant and go to Temple, and I only know a couple of Catholics who go to Mass. It’s more of a way of identifying the sort of culture you’ve grown up in, and having a community to support you when the chips are down. I’m not sure that any of the people that I know who don’t regularly go to Mass tithe, but it’s an indelicate question to ask.

I don’t look at my Catholic friends with contempt. I see them as complicated human beings who have a cultural identity that can’t be shaken off so easily, and who wrestle with the serious sins of their church as anyone would considering it has shaped so much of their identity.

Comment #20: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/17  at  08:51 PM

So many Catholic women have had abortions that the Church had to come up with a way to keep them in the fold. Not surprisingly, it includes heaping doses of guilt applied by a team</i) of guilt inducers:

“Project Rachel is the name of the Catholic Church’s healing ministry to those who have been involved in abortion. Its name comes from Scripture:

In Ramah is heard the sound of moaning,
of bitter weeping!
Rachel mourns her children,
she refuses to be consoled
because her children are no more.

Thus says the LORD:
Cease your cries of mourning,
wipe the tears from your eyes.
The sorrow you have shown shall have its reward…
There is hope for your future.

Jeremiah 31:15-1

Project Rachel operates as a network of healing composed of specially-trained caregivers which may include priests, deacons, sisters, lay staff and volunteers, mental health professionals, spiritual directors, mentors, chaplains and others, such as medical personnel.

These individuals, often working as a team, provide direct care to women, men and adolescents who have been touched by an abortion loss, enabling them to grieve, receive forgiveness, and find peace.”
http://www.hopeafterabortion.com/rachel/

Did the inclusion of the mens obsessing about what a female vessel might have done with their sperm give you pause? It should—scroll to the bottom of the page, and you’ll find the only photo on the page, that of a young man captioned, <i>“I can’t believe I let this happen.”!!!!!

The young man is sulking, with a closed fist up to his face. With the caption seeming to imply that if he’d used that fist on the bitch in the first place there wouldn’t be a need for Project Rachel ganging up on ‘em, after the fact.

 

Comment #21: judybrowni  on  08/17  at  09:18 PM

It’s the American Dream: a certain strand of ‘white ethnic’ Catholicism, transformed from oppressed to oppressor in three or four generations, with a lot of help from Levittown and other suburban enclaves. And yet still claiming victim status.

Yes, you’re supposed to be led by the hierarchy, but when they are so obviously wrong and talking about something they have no personal experience with, it’s very easy to discount them.

There’s a long tradition of laughing at the Catholic clerical hierarchy that doesn’t map to other denominations. To what extent it was a subconscious reaction to the institutional rot… well, that’s another argument.

Comment #22: pseudonymous in nc  on  08/17  at  09:32 PM

Toronto Atheist @19:

It is possible that you are reacting to things that Kit-Kat has not said and beliefs s/he does not hold.

Comment #23: mr_subjunctive  on  08/17  at  11:41 PM

Oh, god…

I made the mistake of reading the Salon comments.  So much asininity, So so much.

Comment #24: J.Goff, Droll Jester of Tomatoey Goodness  on  08/18  at  12:55 AM

Sorry, Slate comments.

Comment #25: J.Goff, Droll Jester of Tomatoey Goodness  on  08/18  at  12:57 AM

It’s the people with zero control over how the church conducts its business who are the TRUE church. And we should applaud them too, despite the fact they funnel money to said church, making the promotion of its fascist agenda possible.

The ones who tithe and funnel money to the church and actually go to mass every week or more generally do support the church’s policies and leaders.  Kit-Kat referenced a survey that said that Catholics are more likely to support gay marriage than the rest of the religious public, but that’s from averaging the Catholics who go to church regularly with the “just-Christmas-and-Easter, or maybe never” Catholics.  The ones who are the money base of the church and who actually GO to church are much less likely than the general public to support liberal policies like gay marriage and contraception.  So the TRUE church is made of the people who don’t go to church or follow its policies.  It makes sense if you’re advocating an overthrow of the church hierarchy, replacement or elimination of the Pope, and modification of the church dogma to “everyone, just decide individually to do whatever you want.”  Which, compared to actual non-religious people, even the “hardly-ever” Catholics are still (on average, not always) bigots when it comes to issues like gay marriage, but it seems like a step in the right direction.

Comment #26: Nimravid  on  08/18  at  05:18 AM

I read your XX post yesterday then read the comments (big mistake).  I hope that no women at all will attend the events in Madrid lest they have their photo taken and put on the internet in an effort at “slut shaming”. I can totally see that happening to any woman who shows up (even tourists who are not affiliated with the Catholic church)—a photo of them with the words, “She asked god to forgive her for having an abortion.” Then there will be billboards along the highways in red states. So thank you for alerting people to this balls out effort at slut shaming.

Comment #27: serious bette  on  08/18  at  09:30 AM

serious bette—I had that thought too. So much of anti-choice efforts is centered around knowing who the dirty sluts are.

Comment #28: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/18  at  09:59 AM

@Comment #27: serious bette on 08/18 at 09:30 AM

Jeezus… that’s what people do? That’s not only character assassination, that’s a public incitement to violence against these women.

Comment #29: atheist  on  08/18  at  10:15 AM

I have no doubt that’s part of why Catholic women have more abortions than non-Catholic Christians - no one will know about the abortion if you don’t tell them, whereas pregnancy is (usually) visible and obvious.

Comment #30: Yawgmoth  on  08/18  at  10:50 AM

Comment #23: mr_subjunctive —indeed, he/she is. 

Comment #27: serious bette—unlikely, since World Youth Day attracts hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world.  It’s not an event for the purpose of forgiving people who’ve had abortions.  It’s an international gathering of people, at which the priests who are already there and hearing confession have the authority to lift excommunications for abortion.  No one will have any way of knowing which women there have had abortions.  Feel free to disagree with the Church’s position on abortion, but please get your facts straight.

Comment #31: Kit-Kat  on  08/18  at  11:57 AM

Comment #20: Mighty Ponygirl

“I don’t look at my Catholic friends with contempt. I see them as complicated human beings who have a cultural identity that can’t be shaken off so easily, and who wrestle with the serious sins of their church as anyone would considering it has shaped so much of their identity.”

Exactly.  This.  It’s also the case that the Church provides some great things to people—a community, friends, social activities, and a source of comfort.  Many people received really good educations in parochial schools or Catholic universities.  The Church celebrates their major life events—birth, marriage, children, illness, death.  The Church is a deeply flawed institution because it’s made up of flawed people.  It’s done terrible things, and it’s made terrible mistakes, but if you were raised in it, it becomes a part of your identity, in both good and bad ways.  In some ways, it’s easier to leave the Church, because then you can just hate it or ignore it.  But that’s not a choice that everyone can or wants to make—which puts thoughtful people in a tough spot.

Comment #32: Kit-Kat  on  08/18  at  12:18 PM

I’m even more cynical about Amanda’s critics than Amanda is here.

Labeling criticism of religion as bigotry is a political strategy of conservative Christians (including evangelicals as well as Catholics). (By the way, internationally, this is a common strategy in other theocratic systems as well. Criticizing Islam will get you in trouble in many of the more conservative Islamic countries too.) They do it because their critics are a threat.

Further, they are helped by a general discomfort among many Americans regarding criticism of religious beliefs. I think the idea is basically that this stuff is personal and off limits to critics. The difference, of course, is that the conservative Christians are activists who try and conform the law and others’ behavior to their beliefs—they stand in a lot different stead from the person who simply holds a religious belief that others disagree with but doesn’t try to force it on anyone else.

Comment #33: Dilan Esper  on  08/18  at  03:08 PM

I had a lot of fun on the XX forum. I would have never guessed that so many humor-deprived people would feel personally attacked and yell “anti-Catholic bigotry” when confronted with a well-written and funny piece that merely calls the RCC on its BS. I knew those people existed, but I had no idea they were such a multitude.

Stultorum infinitus est numerus. QED.

Comment #34: Dan2108  on  08/19  at  01:20 AM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.