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Next entry: Slicing up this bill just means more bills Previous entry: ‘Victimized’ AFA launches anti-gay ‘Silencing Christians’ web site and video

If Obama fails, it’s more too late than too little

Update: They invoked cloture.  It’s now a foregone conclusion. 

Obama’s “convince America to back the economic stimulus bill” tour is turning out to be a classic argument for building infrastructure.  Not national infrastructure, though he’s making that case well enough, but political infrastructure of the sort that Democrats have neglected building for the past 40 years or so, while the Republicans have building up anti-government sentiment that can be called upon any time they want to convince the public to support policy that is the equivalent of every hard-working person in this country writing a check made out to Fat Cats Incorporated.  For decades, Republicans have been blanketing the nation with nonsensical propaganda about “socialism”, and trying to convince people that the best thing to do in economic hard times is the absolute worst thing for us to do, which is make the government tighten the belt while the rest of us go shopping, as Bush begged us to do after 9/11.  And while a few foolhardy liberals have been out there trying like hell to remind people that the government belongs to us, and therefore helping us out is its most important duty, we haven’t really gotten enough support from mainstream Democrats, who have sacrificed a lot of rhetorical ground to stay ingratiated to voters whose brains have been fried on right wing propaganda. 

Trying to reverse decades of brain-washing overnight is a task too big for even someone with Obama’s charisma and popularity.  Americans are a poorly educated lot about our own history, to boot, and I worry that a lot of people think FDR’s main contribution to fighting the Depression was telling people to buck up.  But add to that Clinton’s legacy as a free trade supporter and a welfare slasher, and you’ve got a situation where Americans have been hearing from both parties for a long time that the government has no business helping people out in need or regulating markets or doing anything, apparently, except starting unnecessary wars to enrich the already rich.  And now that they’re backed into a corner, the Democrats have been trying to pass this one as an emergency package, which it is, but unfortunately, it’s being released into an atmosphere where people don’t even understand that basics of how government spending works and how it influences the economy.  If Democrats had spend the past 40 years pushing back hard against right wing propaganda and arguing that the government’s functions are largely legitimate and dramatically improve the quality of American life—-which isn’t hard to argue since we have piles upon piles of evidence (check out this slideshow) of how this works—-then this stimulus bill wouldn’t be such a hard sell.

With that in mind, Obama is doing a bang-up job considering how many strikes he has against him.  Going on tour is about more than just talking to people and convincing them to support the bill. It’s about dominating the news cycle while this bill gets hashed out.  The more the media has to cover Obama’s speeches, the less airtime they have to fill with Republican talking heads making false comparisons and trying, like the immoral bastards they are, to exploit this recession to widen the gap between rich and poor.  That’s about the best we can hope for, especially since the biggest media outlets are dominated by people who have a personal interest in maintaining outrageous economic disparities.

But let’s hope this is a lesson learned, though it probably won’t be—-if you want the public to support you when you’re actually ready to move, you need to get them on your side a long time beforehand.  Democrats shouldn’t wait until an economic crisis to make arguments about public spending, infrastructure, and regulation.  We need to be making those arguments all the time, and explaining all the time why Republican ideas are less about liberty and more about maintaining economic injustice.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:12 PM • (64) Comments

Hallelujiah

I wish like hell that the Democrats would make these connections publicly. I feel so often like we are trying to build a castle… like, I mean an actual castle… with beach sand. The sand grains won’t cohere and so it collapses. The US public won’t accept that it needs some level of social citizenship to stay free, and so our society colllapses into feudalism.

Comment #1: atheist  on  02/09  at  07:56 PM

Hey, I live about three blocks from that picture!

Comment #2: Seraph  on  02/09  at  08:02 PM

It was built as part of that “useless” stimulus package passed in the 30s.  wink

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/09  at  08:23 PM

The Timberline Motel was built with WPA money! 

That’s where Stephen King came up with The Shining!  A real nightmare!

And the Dragnet building!

And Camp David.  Did W ever go there?

Awesome slideshow.  Too bad gov’t work doesn’t create jobs.

Comment #4: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/09  at  09:01 PM

It was built as part of that “useless” stimulus package passed in the 30s.

As was just about everything that can plausibly be called infrastructure in my hometown, from paved roads to the local public high school.

Comment #5: The Opoponax  on  02/09  at  09:40 PM

I also wanted to say, but forgot to before I hit “Blaspheme”, that I think the Obama tour is particularly brilliant in other ways.  Think of the way that “Washington” is often used as a synecdoche for ivory tower government.  Think of one of the big things that Bush was excoriated for almost universally—taking vacation time back on his private compound in a remote and inaccessible part of the country. 

I think this really sends the message that Obama is our president.  He wants to sell us on his ideas.  In person, if necessary.  He wants to come to us, rather than secreting away somewhere.  And that’s hokey, sure.  But it’s great political theatre.

Comment #6: The Opoponax  on  02/09  at  09:44 PM

Too bad gov’t work doesn’t create jobs.

Michael Steele is going to be So. Much. Fun.

Comment #7: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  02/09  at  09:50 PM

I went to a 1930’s WPA funded High School.

What people sometimes is that spending is spending. It all generates economic effects no matter who spends it, whether that’s the government or the private sector. The economy is such that the private sector can’t get the kind of money needed to get the economy moving again. The government has done as muvh as possible usin Fed controls to get the banks lending, and I think our larger banks have forgotten how to follow the old model of making money by charging interest lent toward likely successful projects anyway. They get it from fees and various schemes that have turned out to not work so well.

So, the private sector is stretched to it’s limits (mostly through its on fault) and cannot pump the economy the way that is needed now. So there simpl has to be some federal domestic spending to help things out. And spending is spending, it all generates economic activity and sometimes goverment spending can do a better job than private spending. And it needn’t all be for infratructure. I’m all in favor of expanding S-chip well above the poverty line. I think it will not only alleviate the uncertainties faced by the working poor, but will actually result poorer people in getting and keeping jobs.

Comment #8: Bacopa  on  02/09  at  10:15 PM

I don’t want to be one of those people waxing poetic about how great things were in the olden days.  However, I love, love, love so many of those Great Depression/WPA projects.  The buildings and murals are fantastic, and my favorite place to take a walk in Seattle (a fantastic walkway on the west side of Queen Anne which overlooks the Olympics and has great old-fashioned street lamps) of course turned out to be a WPA project.

Comment #9: keshmeshi  on  02/09  at  10:15 PM

I might be wrong (but I don’t hink so) Barton Springs Pool, Deep Eddy, Bastrop State Park, Zilker Park: ALL WPA Projects.

Comment #10: KMTBERRY  on  02/09  at  10:33 PM

I want to say that the central branch of the Brooklyn Public Library was a WPA project, but I just wikipedia’ed it and it was apparently started in 1912.  But it wasn’t finished till ‘41.  Maybe it’s just aesthetically indebted to the WPA…

Wasn’t a lot of the national and state park infrastructure (cabins, picnic grounds, trails, etc) developed by the CCC?

Comment #11: The Opoponax  on  02/09  at  10:39 PM

This was more than a stimulus package.  My great uncles and my grandfather spoke of the difficulties before their stint in the CCC and working on WPA projects, and how there were wobblies trying to recruit them, and how they spent their time to no good end.  They would then talk about their time in the CCC in halcyon glowing terms, as if they had spent some wonderful time at camp!  Not working their rear ends off for the government, but also eating well, enjoying time with other guys in various after hours activities, living outside and building stuff, the whole nine yards.

In return for all this money, FDR bought more than construction projects.  He bought a well fed, strong, and LOYAL corps of young men willing to fight and die for the land made for you and me.

Comment #12: Ms Kate  on  02/09  at  11:01 PM

Oh,and my grandfather worked on Timberline Lodge, among other projects in the area.

Comment #13: Ms Kate  on  02/09  at  11:03 PM

During the Depression my grandpa helped support his family with his paper route and by hunting snapping turtles for food. Then his older brother went to work in the CCCs and could send his family much-needed paychecks. Surely everybody has similar family stories? Or do Republicans just not bother to listen to their grandparents?

Comment #14: Entomologista  on  02/09  at  11:03 PM

Surely everybody has similar family stories?

Yup.  Without the WPA, Social Security, and the GI Bill (not a part of the New Deal proper, but of the same spirit), I’d probably have spent my day hoeing rows in preparation for okra planting time.  Or milking cows - depending on which side of the family’s farm won out I suppose.  And certainly not behind a desk squinting at CS3.

I couldn’t be a libertarian if I tried.

Comment #15: The Opoponax  on  02/09  at  11:12 PM

“Surely everybody has similar family stories? Or do Republicans just not bother to listen to their grandparents?”

...sure, Republicans listen to their grandparents — especially when they talk about that goddamned Franklin Roosevelt and his goddamed communist ways, and how he really made the Great Depression much worse, instead of just leaving it alone like Hoover had done for the previous 4-years (and every Republican would have done until America was tumbleweeds from one side to the other, punctuated by the occasional rich guy with his Duesenbergs and his mansions).  At least that’s what GW Bush heard from his gandfather, Prescott Throckmorton Buckingham Bush III…

Comment #16: MikeEss  on  02/09  at  11:19 PM

I honestly think that most rank-and-file Republicans, the ones who don’t have wealthy WASP roots, just don’t think about it.  The world, to them, is a never-shifting status quo.  Whatever they know has been there since the dawn of time, placed there by God Himself.  Whatever is different, exotic, or new to them is a perversion upon the earth.  There have always been paved streets, electricity, social security checks, and land-grant universities.  There ought never be universal healthcare or free childcare for working families.

Comment #17: The Opoponax  on  02/09  at  11:31 PM

MikeEss:

Worse yet, That Man in the White House made them pay their employees a decent wage. And all those goverment jobs made the peasants uppity because they weren’t going to starve any more.


But no, the modern crop of republicans don’t listen to their grandparents. They listen to Limbaugh, and if he told them that the depression lasted so long because FDR was really a jewish banker who made a deal with the martians to export Okies as a food crop they’d be telling you Orson Welles was right after all.

All of this makes me sad because I grew up in a republican household, with parents who didn’t doubt for a minute that FDR had kept the country from sliding into disaster. But then came Reagan and his Know-Nothings, and the party they had believed in was gone.

Comment #18: paul  on  02/09  at  11:43 PM

“All of this makes me sad because I grew up in a republican household, with parents who didn’t doubt for a minute that FDR had kept the country from sliding into disaster.”

That’s basically what I got when I was growing up in my solidly conservative Republican family. My grandparents were glad Social Security covered for their lack of retirement planning (Grandpa was a low-end blue-collar working his whole life so never had the money to set aside anyway), and MediCare was there to pay for their healthcare.

It was presidents like Kennedy and Johnson they despised.  There were some marches and other drama involving “the Coloreds” during the 60’s that they couldn’t abide…

Comment #19: MikeEss  on  02/10  at  12:10 AM

KMT, the CCC build most of the park infrastructure that makes up the Texas State Parks system.  Have you ever been to Tyler State Park in Tyler or Garner State Park in the hill country?  Two amazing parks that wouldn’t have been possible without American socialism.

Comment #20: realityfighter  on  02/10  at  12:25 AM

Yeah, but don’t you all see?

They built the Triborough/RFK, but it was a limited contract.  It created “work” not “jobs” and it came to an end.  It’s built now.

It’s not like it has or will have any continuing impact on the economic viability of the area.

Comment #21: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/10  at  12:42 AM

It created “work” not “jobs” and it came to an end.  It’s built now.

And now there are toll collectors, and maintenance workers, and bus drivers whose routes go over the bridge, and taxi drivers who are willing to take people to Astoria.  Not to mention that entire parts of the city were developed because the Triboro connected them more efficiently to Manhattan.

Yes, I know you’re snarking.  Just wanted to illustrate how colossally stupid anyone who’d suggest that the Triboro bridge (or equivalent infrastructure developments in other parts of the US) “didn’t create jobs” and only made an impact on the economy for a finite period of time.

Comment #22: The Opoponax  on  02/10  at  12:52 AM

33,000 undergraduates attend a very affordable college in San Diego annually thanks to the WPA. Go Aztecs!

Gregory Peck thanks you! Tony Gwynn thanks you! Dr. Fucking Astronaut Ellen Ochoa thanks you! Art Linkletter thanks you! Kathleen Kennedy thanks you! Marshall Faulk thanks you! Raquel Welch thanks you! Graig Nettles thanks you!

And *I* thank you!

Comment #23: Roxanne  on  02/10  at  12:52 AM

I live in Elkhart, Indiana and work in management in a manufacturing facility. If any Republican wants a sad pile of evidence that this plan is absolutely necessary, I invite them to visit my office and I’ll take them on a tour of the factory, which was dark today because we’ve cut back production to avoid laying off even more workers. The workers we’ve managed to retain make 80% of what they used to. We’re scaling down to four days a week because that’s preferable to putting it off until we have to shut down the factory entirely and send everyone home until we can afford to call them back.

Fuck Republicans and their doggedly moronic insistence that the best thing to do is nothing. Tell that to the people who don’t know how they’re going to feed their families.

Comment #24: pajmahal  on  02/10  at  12:56 AM

Also, if you live in San Francisco and enjoy water coming out of your faucet ...

http://livingnewdeal.berkeley.edu/map/view.php?l=419

Comment #25: Roxanne  on  02/10  at  01:06 AM

Honest good-faith question - Is anyone else concerned about how we will pay for all this?  I dont for one second doubt that government projects and building infrastructure are great things. But we already have the staggering debt created by the Bush tax cuts and Iraq/Afganistan wars,  TARP round 1,  and isnt another round of TARP on the way?  Also don’t forget that Social Security and Medicare costs will skyrocket over the next decade as the boomers approach 70. Given all that I just have a hard time believing $1 trillion in new spending is the right way to solve our problem.  Congress is sounding like someone who’s decided “Fuck it- Ill never get out of debt. Might as well rack up at the mall this weekend before the credit card gets cancelled.”

Comment #26: chris  on  02/10  at  02:31 AM

@ chris:  I’m no economist, but if you’re looking for a credit card analogy, I think this is much more like opening up another credit card to scrape together start-up capital for a business idea you’re sure will work in the long run, when no bank is going for your business plan.  It’s not maxing out the credit cards on disposable nonsense, it’s maxing out the credit cards on things that are durable and lasting.  Think of the difference between using a credit card to buy your buddies a few rounds of fancy drinks and using a credit card to buy a lawnmower to start a landscaping business.  Both put money into the economy, but the latter leaves you with something to show for it.

Sure, it’s not without risk, but sometimes you have to borrow in the short run to make money—and progress—in the long run.  Uncle Sam as venture capitalist or angel funder.

Comment #27: FlipYrWhig  on  02/10  at  03:15 AM

I’d also point out that the University of Houston grew to become more than the joke it was in the teens and twenties because of federal grants in the 1930s. The GI Bill tok care of the rest and now its a pretty danm good state univ even though it’s not in the top tier nationwide.

Comment #28: Bacopa  on  02/10  at  03:18 AM

Actually, chris, I would compare Congress to someone who, out of work and deep in debt, uses their credit cards to pay for their rent and groceries…and to pay for the necessities of a job search: internet access, resume paper, train/bus fare to interviews (or temp work gigs), maybe even an interview suit.  The whole point right now is just to survive and get to a place where we have the means to pay off our debt. 

On a more concrete level, people with government jobs are paying taxes and producing things of value, rather than simply drawing unemployment.  And even if someone is just drawing unemployment (another part of the stimulus package, I believe), they’re still paying for things that they couldn’t if they didn’t have that income.

For example, I was laid off in late October.  I’ve had a fair amount of temp work, but without unemployment, my soon-to-be-ex-wife and I wouldn’t be able to afford the rent on our apartment.  She’d have to move in with friends, and I’d have to move all the way home with my parents upstate.  With it, we can pay our rent (which means the old Italian couple upstairs can pay their mortgage) and buy groceries (doing our little bit to help the local grocery stores keep their doors open and their employees paid).  I can even afford the occasional small pleasure (My Bloody Valentine 3D was fun for what it was, but I recommend it only to people who already enjoy dumb, bloody slasher flicks - yes, I know that’s redundant).

Comment #29: Seraph  on  02/10  at  03:19 AM

Chris,

I’m honestly worried about it too.  However, after the stock market crashed in ‘29, Hoover became preoccupied with balancing the budget/paying off the country’s debt and even raised taxes to do so.  I’ve heard a number of economists and historians blame that (and not FDR) for creating the Great Depression.

And at least this time, unlike with pretty much anything Bush et al did, we’ll get badly needed infrastructure in the bargain.

Comment #30: keshmeshi  on  02/10  at  05:30 AM

I think I have to stop visiting Daily Kos for a while. People are over there are totally loosing all their cookies over there. I just read a comment from some crazypants who suggested that in a matter of months we would be in a massive food shortage that would permanently change the farming industry FOREVER!!!! and soon after that we will all be living in cardboard boxes and NYC will be turned into a giant maximum security prison and !!! and !!!!.
I know it’s bad and life is going to be no picnic for a bit but I’m not convinced we are screwed for FOREVER yet. I really think Obama may do some good things to help pull us out of this mess. Or at least I am going to keep on telling myself these things until I feel a little less absolutely terrified…

Comment #31: AdamN  on  02/10  at  06:05 AM

Regarding debt:
As far as I understand, at the moment public debt in the US is around 65-70% of GDP. The federal deficit is already around 5% of GDP and the stimulus will add around 1,5 to 2% in the next two years.Then there are possible TARP costs. Add all together and debt could rise in the next two years to around 80, 90% of GDP.

Then that? Doom?

Well, no. If you (americans) develop the political will to balance your budget in normal economic times you can reduce your debt again just like the Keynesian textbooks prescribe.
Three examples:
The US had at the end of second world war a debt of 140% of GDP. This ratio sunk until the days of Jimmy Carter to 30% of GDP.
Sweden had because of economic and banking crises in the early to mid nineties a public debt of 80% of GDP. Last year this ratio had developed to 40% of GDP.
Belgium had in the mid nineties a public debt of over 110% of GDP. There is no way back right? Well, nowadays there are back to about 80% debt .

So running up a lot of debt in extraordinary times and then reducing the debt again can be done. (Canada is probably another example: Any Canadians care to explain the details?)
Or do you want to argue americans are worse than foreigners?

Comment #32: _IM_  on  02/10  at  06:36 AM

I would also ask why nobody was “worried about what all this will cost” when we spent 1 trillion + going to war in Iraq.

Comment #33: The Opoponax  on  02/10  at  08:54 AM

WOW! You are so right, Amanda.

About the CCC and WPA projects. Those have stimulated the economy for going on 80 years. Just think of the cumulative monetary benefit of the Baseball Hall of Fame to Cooperstown. Not to mention the societal impact.

I’m among those with a family connection. My dad supported his parents and three siblings on his CCC pay. He was stationed in the South Dakota Black Hills. The work he did on forest and watershed conservation informed his environmental view to the end of his days.

As Ms Kate said, there was far more to the program than back-breaking labor. The men had the opportunity to take high school or college classes. There was a literacy program and a traveling library. Remember that this was an era of not universal high school education. Dad, for example, a man whose breadth of knowledge I would compare to the best of a 4-year liberal arts degree, had only completed 8 years of formal education when the Depression hit. Ms Kate mentioned the recreation. The camps each had fiercely competitive baseball and boxing teams. Dad’s yearbook has far more about the social activities than about the work accomplishments.

These were wonderful programs that lifted many participants and their families from the most desperate conditions. I hope our times never get that bad.

Comment #34: draghnfly  on  02/10  at  10:25 AM

That would’ve been unpatriotic, Oppopponax.

Comment #35: human  on  02/10  at  10:56 AM

Chris,

Sometimes gov’t plans don’t work out, but that doesn’t mean they were a waste of money.

For example, I’ll use HUD/FHA mortgage insurance.  Overall, this program operates at a profit, but it offers long-term, non-recourse loans, at great rates.  The processing time is arduous, but the loans are great.

Even when a project fails, and the government then reimburses the lender 100%, it’s not necessarily a bad thing.  Sandburg Village in Old Town neighborhood of Chicago is a failed HUD project.  Instead of a vacant lot, there were well-built (using Davis Bacon wages) apartments.  The following owners did well; the buildings went condo, with 1br units still going for a quarter million dollars even in this market.  Most people have no idea that the government financed that project.

Or that it is a failed government project.

But that’s the point.  The stimulus money, even if spent wisely, might not be repaid.  But if you build something, not only have you employed people during the construction, but you leave something sold behind.

How can anyone possibly evaluate the economic benefits of the Triborough/RFK bridge?  Did the government get its money’s worth out of it?  Was it worth it?

Comment #36: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/10  at  11:09 AM

Chris, where were you when Bush wanted to invade Iraq?

Yes, there is debt, but there is also a nation to feed, clothe, house, etc.  Consider it a round of public venture capital.

Comment #37: Ms Kate  on  02/10  at  11:55 AM

If any Republican wants a sad pile of evidence that this plan is absolutely necessary, I invite them to visit my office and I’ll take them on a tour of the factory, which was dark today because we’ve cut back production to avoid laying off even more workers. The workers we’ve managed to retain make 80% of what they used to. We’re scaling down to four days a week because that’s preferable to putting it off until we have to shut down the factory entirely and send everyone home until we can afford to call them back.
pajmahal

Have you had a chance to speak with the employees about the stimulus plan?  I’d be interested to hear what their take is on it.  Also, I think it’d be a great idea for you to contact some of the dissenting GOPpers and offer them that tour.

However, after the stock market crashed in ‘29, Hoover became preoccupied with balancing the budget/paying off the country’s debt and even raised taxes to do so.  I’ve heard a number of economists and historians blame that (and not FDR) for creating the Great Depression.
keshmeshi

There’s also the fact that FDR’s new deal was working until he sought to balance the budget in 1937.

draghnfly, like your Dad, my husband’s father went into the CCCs when he was 18 after his own father died, so as to support his pregnant mother and two younger siblings.  The stories that my husband tells of what his Dad told him (I never met the man as he passed away before I met my husband) about his two years - one in upstate NY and one in Montana - in CCCs always make me proud that we had programmes like this here in the States.

Comment #38: fastiller  on  02/10  at  12:03 PM

We know now that the New Deal’s main problem was that it wasn’t big enough.  The crisis was finally solved by war production which was the biggest public works project ever.  At the end of WW II we had 15,000,000 people in uniform.  We had 2,000,000 “Rosie the Riviters.”

Another problem with the New Deal was the destruction of the NRA by a right-wing court.  Sure glad we don’t have one of those any more.

I still remember some of the old people who were Union people who had three pictures on the wall, John L. Lewis, FDR and Jesus Christ and not necessarily in that order.

Dad worked for CCC and WPA and was proud to do it.  I still fish at a pond they built in the 1930’s.

Comment #39: Magis  on  02/10  at  12:55 PM

By the time we were finished with the New Deal and WWII our national debt was over 100% of GDP.

The massive government spending from those two ventures, though, created such a broad and deep prosperity from 1945 to the early 70s that paying it off was not a big deal.

Comment #40: Ben D.  on  02/10  at  12:57 PM

Ben D:

By the time we were finished with the New Deal and WWII our national debt was over 100% of GDP.

The massive government spending from those two ventures, though, created such a broad and deep prosperity from 1945 to the early 70s that paying it off was not a big deal.

This.

You’d think that anyone who lived through the ‘80s would understand that “you gotta spend money to make money” is an economic truism. Why these same people insist that this doesn’t also apply to government spending is a complete mystery to me.

I mean, isn’t that how businesses are started? You spend a bunch of money, perhaps even money that you — gasp! — borrowed from someone else, to build the infrastructure to support your business, then you use that infrastructure to make back your initial investment, pay your ongoing costs, and if all goes well, turn a tidy profit at the end of the day. Obviously, with any investment there’s the risk that you might not get a good return or any return at all; you might even lose more money, on top of your initial investment. But if you categorically refuse to make that investment on ideological grounds, your chances of getting that return automatically drops to 0%.

Comment #41: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  02/10  at  01:26 PM

I think Caren’s being sarcastic.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/10  at  01:27 PM

Also, “nothing ventured, nothing gained.”

Refusing to invest in our economy simply because there’s a non-zero chance that it might not work isn’t sound government, it’s just economic cowardice.

Comment #43: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  02/10  at  01:28 PM

And we SHOULD balance the budget and pay off this debt when we have good economic times again.

I hope all these supposed fiscal conservatives, by the time 2016 rolls around and we’ve had a few years of good solid economic growth and a surplus again, will be for using said surplus to responsibly pay down our debt rather than clamoring for massive tax cuts and screaming “Reagan proved deficits don’t matter!”, but I’m not going to hold my breath.

Comment #44: Ben D.  on  02/10  at  01:31 PM

Ms. Kate - I was in college when Iraq was invaded and was more concerned with what bar I was going to that night than our nation’s fiscal health.  Bringing up Iraq isn’t the right way to justify new spending and is a poor attempt at avoiding the question at hand by bringing up distractions.  What’s done is done. You may not agree with the war and think it was a massive waste of money, but it happened and the money is spent. Those debts exist and, as I mentioned above, when coupled with 2 rounds of TARP make me apprehensive about entering into a historic increase in spending. 

Thanks to others for the thoughtful responses.

Comment #45: chris  on  02/10  at  02:12 PM

I agree saying “Well, Iraq was expensive” is a poor defense of the spending in the bill and won’t fly beyond our base.

Comment #46: Ben D.  on  02/10  at  02:43 PM

I was in college when Iraq was invaded and was more concerned with what bar I was going to that night than our nation’s fiscal health.

I was in college when Iraq was invaded, and yet I managed to put in my share of time as an anti-war activist.  But I was just a wee innocent college kid!” is no excuse for being completely and totally oblivious to world affairs.  Fuck off, fratboy.

Comment #47: The Opoponax  on  02/10  at  03:09 PM

I agree saying “Well, Iraq was expensive” is a poor defense of the spending in the bill and won’t fly beyond our base.

To me it’s not so much “Well, Iraq was expensive, too”, but wondering where all this worry about fiscal responsibility and budget deficits was when we decided to throw almost twice this amount of money at mass murder, all based on a colossal lie.

For that matter, where was all the concern about deficit spending when we gave hundreds of billions to the banking industry a few months ago?  That stimulus package was seen as expensive, and possibly ineffective, and yet it was also seen as a necessary evil.

Comment #48: The Opoponax  on  02/10  at  03:14 PM

For that matter, where was all the concern about deficit spending when we gave hundreds of billions to the banking industry a few months ago?  That stimulus package was seen as expensive, and possibly ineffective, and yet it was also seen as a necessary evil.

The really rabid right wing Republicans were against that, too. The ones who actually realized that if we didn’t do something the world economy would collapse (i.e., the smart ones) put aside their B.S. “small government” rhetoric and voted for it.

Comment #49: Ben D.  on  02/10  at  03:19 PM

To me it’s not so much “Well, Iraq was expensive, too”, but wondering where all this worry about fiscal responsibility and budget deficits was when we decided to throw almost twice this amount of money at mass murder, all based on a colossal lie.

Exactly. I just want to continually point out to everyone that will listen to me, and many who probably won’t, the complete hypocrisy of ‘fiscal conservatism’, which has had no significant believers in government for the past 30 years.

Comment #50: atheist  on  02/10  at  03:44 PM

NYC will be turned into a giant maximum security prison and !!! and !!!!.

I’m glad to see changing my name to Snake Pliskin wasn’t in vain.

Comment #51: cynickal  on  02/10  at  03:53 PM

Bringing up Iraq isn’t the right way to justify new spending and is a poor attempt at avoiding the question at hand by bringing up distractions.

No, it’s an excellent way to point out the arbitrary and inconsistent nature of your opposition to spending.

Comment #52: atheist  on  02/10  at  05:55 PM

Hey snake, we have a “newly aware and demanding attention” fratboy infestation here ... can ya do somethin about that?

Comment #53: Ms Kate  on  02/10  at  06:01 PM

Okay, we have our Snake Pliskin. 

Now all we need to cast is Mr. President (the late Donald Pleasence), The Duke (the late Isaac Hayes), Brain (Harry Dean Stanton), Maggie (Adrienne Barbeau), and Cabby (Ernest Borgnine).

We can make this thing happen, people!...

Comment #54: MikeEss  on  02/10  at  06:17 PM

Oh, it’s concerned. Gotcha. Thank you for your concern.

Comment #55: kaninchen  on  02/10  at  06:34 PM

Opoponax – WTF is your problem? I asked a valid question and instead of engaging in discussion like several others, you resort to shitty, transparent distractions, name calling, and self-flagellation.  Pointing and saying “look they did it too” is how children justify actions, not rational adults. The fact that Bush left us with staggering war-driven debts and the need to spend almost $1 trillion to repair the broken financial markets are circumstances that should make us proceed cautiously before embarking on our largest ever spending program, not reasons to justify spending further.  Do you manage your personal finances by using past expenses, wise and foolish, as justification for present spending? I hope not.  Even though hindsight has clearly shown what a mistake Iraq was, as Americans you and I still have to pay for it. But that’s a moot point as spending for Iraq has nothing to do with the stimulus, which is why injecting that issue into this discussion and bleating about your war protesting is illogical and idiotic. Your quick reversion to weak excuses, bad-faith distracters, and insults is an indicator of your inability to have a rational discussion.

Also, I’m not going to apologize for having fun in college and not playing the part of the tortured martyr like you chose to do. Life is too short not to enjoy yourself. And its insulting to act as if not spending my college years protesting somehow precludes me from voicing my concerns now.  And for the record, I wasn’t in a fraternity. Finally go fuck yourself you judgmental, sanctimonious asshat.

Comment #56: chris  on  02/10  at  09:40 PM

WTF is your problem? I asked a valid question and instead of engaging in discussion like several others, you resort to shitty, transparent distractions, name calling, and self-flagellation.

“But I was in college and thus too young to understand!!!” is not an excuse not to be aware of the past 8 years of basic US history and current affairs.  I knew, in college, what the Iraq war was going to cost, and what that would mean for the immediate future (in fact I specifically knew that the money we were squandering on pointless murder would mean an inability to use that money to help people, especially in the event of an economic downturn).  And I wasn’t some kind of ascetic savant who never had any fun.  I was a human being, engaged in the world around me.  I spent my share of time partying, but I also picked up a goddamn newspaper every now and again, and when what I read there outraged me, I actually did something about it.

For anyone who thinks otherwise, “frat boy” is honestly a nicer epithet than they deserve.

Pointing and saying “look they did it too” is how children justify actions, not rational adults.

You are deliberately obscuring the point of mentioning the costs of the war in Iraq.  It’s not about “look they did it too”.  It’s to point out that the very individuals who suddenly have their panties in a bunch about large spending projects were, just a few years ago, happy to throw away the surplus we had for nothing.  It’s kind of like someone who just lost $1000 at poker telling you not to “waste money” on coffee from Starbucks.  In other words, the Republicans have no room to talk about fiscal responsibility right now.  They lost that right when they threw away the money we actually had, which was meant for the kind of situation we’re in right now.

Also, I’m not going to apologize for having fun in college and not playing the part of the tortured martyr like you chose to do.

Actually, getting involved in activist organizing was really fun, not to mention an amazing experience I will always have to look back on.  What will you tell your children and grandchildren about your youth?  “I drank myself into Republicanism”?  What will you say when asked where you were on whatever significant historical date of the last 8 years?  “Totally friggen wasted, d00d!”?

And its insulting to act as if not spending my college years protesting somehow precludes me from voicing my concerns now.

Good.  You should feel insulted.  That’s what I meant to do.  What’s the cliche - if you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention?  That’s going to be etched on the tombstone of the Bush Administration, and frankly, bragging about how you couldn’t be arsed to even know the most basic facts of what was going on in your own country is something to be ashamed of.  And, yes, openly bragging about that should preclude you from butting in on subjects you obviously know nothing about.  Or at least preclude the respect of anyone in earshot of your bleating.

Now run along, frat boy.

Comment #57: The Opoponax  on  02/10  at  10:24 PM

I was in fucking High School when the Iraq War begin and knew what a crock of shit it was.

Comment #58: Ben D.  on  02/11  at  12:23 AM

Oh Jesus Christ. Let’s cut to the fucking chase. When money is spent on works programs, it increases the tax base and local spending exponentially. A construction worker who has a job eats lunch out in diners. The waitress who waits on her can then take a taxi home. The taxi driver can buy some extra groceries that night. Etc.

Comment #59: Roxanne  on  02/11  at  12:34 AM

A construction worker who has a job eats lunch out in diners. The waitress who waits on her can then take a taxi home. The taxi driver can buy some extra groceries that night. Etc.

Trickle-up economics.

Comment #60: Ben D.  on  02/11  at  12:40 AM

More like trickle across.

Comment #61: Roxanne  on  02/11  at  12:45 AM

I was fairly wasted for most of college, but never much for bars. I distinctly remember being drunk when it occured to me that the OMG THEY HAVE WMD!!!! line would still be meaningless bullshit even if it was true. Which it was not.

As to how are we going to pay this off, we’ll worry about that one when we get there. Right now, we have to worry about not having everything go to shit. I would imagine that it would involve some form of taxation, preferably directed at people with large amounts of money.

Comment #62: Indy  on  02/11  at  01:26 AM

My republican grandmother always refers to the WPA as “We Piddle Around”.

Comment #63: Indy  on  02/11  at  01:38 AM

The fact that Bush left us with staggering war-driven debts and the need to spend almost $1 trillion to repair the broken financial markets are circumstances that should make us proceed cautiously before embarking on our largest ever spending program, not reasons to justify spending further.

It’s simple. When Bush wanted to spend billions to kill Iraqis, you were just fine with that, but now that Obama wants to spend billions to keep our economy from imploding, you’re deeply concerned about debt. This suggests to me that your priorities are totally out of whack.

Comment #64: atheist  on  02/11  at  06:58 PM
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