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Next entry: Video homobigot of the day - Pastor Leroy Swailes Previous entry: Is nothing sacred?!

If the research doesn’t say what you want, just lie about it

As you all well know, I try to keep a steady beat of media criticism of a specific kind of bad reporting—-bad science reporting in the name of supporting sexism. Sexists in your secular democracies face a problem—-arguing that women are inferior to men has always been the job of religion, where you can just make shit up without any evidence, declare it the truth, and start oppressing people.  In steps bad science reporters to fill in the gap, elevating hack scientists over good ones because the hacks say what sexists want to hear, anthropomorphizing animal research to reach strained conclusions, claiming that misogynist conclusions were reached in research that weren’t, and allowing armchair evolutionary psychology* to masquerade as genuine science.  But this story takes the cake.  Is it possible that bad science reporters, when faced with research that cannot be construed in any way to mean that bitches ain’t shit, will just lie about it?

Via Feministing (and emailed to me—-thank you, damnedyankee!), we find that the Telegraph ran a story suggesting that women who don’t stay home and knit on a Friday night are basically asking the vigilante justice system known as rapists to punish the women for their infraction with the proper punishment for errant women—-rape.  They’re just trying to help you stay safe, ladies!  Plus, it’s science and nature and utterly irrefutable, so you have no choice but to give up that social life.

And just in case you want to claim that we can’t judge a story by its headline, here’s the lead:

Psychologists found that all three factors had a bearing on how far men were likely to go to take advantage of the opposite sex.

They found that the skimpier the dress and the more flirtatious the woman, the less likely a suitor was to take no for an answer.

Interestingly, this is the toned-down version from the original copy.  They went after women who drink in the first version, but were forced to give that one up after Goldacre called bullshit.  But the main idea of the story—-that the research is about how women cause rape, remains.

The story leads off by saying that if you flirt and wear short skirts, you put up a scientifically proven “open for raping” sign.  But was the research actually about how women get themselves raped by making themselves so available for raping?  Was the research really about how this is all women’s fault? 

Of course not.  As Ben Goldacre reports, the original press release put the blame for rape on an unusual target—-the men who actually do the raping.

Oddly, though, the title of the press release for the same research was: “Promiscuous men more likely to rape.”

Well, obviously it’s untrue that men who rape women are the ones to blame.  That’s like blaming the police when a robber breaks into a house and they arrest him.  The crime committed here was the flirting and short skirt-donning, and that’s that.  Except not according to the actual researchers, who seem to be invested in this weird idea that rapists are to blame for rape.  Goldacre called the researcher on this very preliminary research, Sophia Shaw.  She’s not pleased about this story.

Shaw spoke to about 100 men, presenting them with “being with a woman”, and asking them when they would “call it a night”. The idea was to explore men’s attitudes towards coercing women into sex.

“I’m very aware that there are limitations to my study. It’s self-report data about sensitive issues, so that’s got its flaws, and participants were answering when sober, and so on,” she said.

Men were slightly—-in a statistically irrelevant way—-to claim that what a woman was wearing would change how likely they were to assault her.  Taking what Shaw is saying into consideration, it’s entirely possible that even this statistically insignificant difference actually reflects a tendency to self-justify more than the reality.  In other words, it’s likely that men say that they’d be more likely to rape a woman in a short skirt, because they read stories like the one in the Telegraph and realize that little detail will exonerate their actions, turning them from evil rapists to the victims of women who commit the crime of showing leg.  As we like to say in the biz, more research needs to be done.

The initial story also reported something that was the exact opposite of the truth—-claiming that drunk women were likelier to be raped, according to this research.  Truth says?

Women who drink alcohol, wear short skirts and are outgoing are more likely to be raped? “This is completely inaccurate,” Shaw said. “We found no difference whatsoever. The alcohol thing is also completely wrong: if anything, we found that men reported they were willing to go further with women who are completely sober.”

So they changed that, but they are still misrepresenting the research, blowing statistically insignificant findings out of proportion, ignoring that subjects are just as likely spilling prejudice as accurately reporting on what they’d really do, and really, missing the point entirely. 

Shaw said: “When I saw the article my heart sank, and it made me really angry, given how sensitive this subject is. To be making claims like the Telegraph did, in my name, places all the blame on women, which is not what we were doing at all. I just felt really angry about how wrong they’d got this study.”

The study was measuring men’s attitudes about sexual coercion, which of course has huge implications for how likely they are to rape.  But by making the lead about how women dress and act, and sprinkling judgment for women who think they have the same rights as men to socialize at parties, the Telegraph gives the ordinary reader an impression the research is about how women get themselves raped by being so rapeable. 

The implications of this and most sexist bad science reporting aren’t hard to tease out.  These stories are largely about how male violence and oppression of women are ingrained and inevitable, and so women’s attempts to scratch out some freedom for ourselves are nothing but wishful thinking, and we should shut up and go back to the kitchen.  And stop pressing charges if we’re raped, because it was our fault anyway.

As an addendum, I will never stopped being surprised at how much enthusiasm there is for the willingness to use rapists as an intimidation factor to keep women shrouded and locked up in the house.  You’d think that men have enough interest in seeing women’s legs and being on the receiving end of women’s flirtations that they’d protest vigorously the use of violence to halt these behaviors.  But in my experience, the men who protest this are the ones who are already feminist-minded, and defend women from a rights viewpoint and see the benefits to them as a happy side effect.  I guess more selfish men are so quick to identify with the rapist that they can’t even think about the larger effect of that defense.  In a way, the reason that some women defend the rapist point of view is more understandable—-a lot of women wish to believe the level of inappropriate dress and flirting is just outside what they do, so they’re safe and those women had it coming.

*If you think this is the same thing as evolutionary biology, then already you’ve shown that you’re a sucker for bad science reporting. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:00 AM • (287) Comments

Exactly—if men weren’t constantly bombarded with “slut dressed provocatively” stories, then rapists wouldn’t feel like it’s a get-out-of-jail-free card for justifying the fact that they raped someone.

It really is fucked up the way that we’re commodified, because it’s not even about the good girl/bad girl dichotomy, it’s about the ownership of the woman. If a man can “own” a woman (as her husband, father, boyfriend, or best friend), then she’s a good girl who shouldn’t be raped, and if she is raped, her rapist is a horrible monster. To anyone who doesn’t have an “ownership” view of the woman, (even if she has a husband, even if she’s dressed conservatively), then it’s open season and the slut must have done something to deserve it, or she’s just a lying adulterous bitch, or whatever. About the only way that we (and by “we” I mean the non-feminist “we” of society) take her side is if she accuses someone that we hate as much or more than the woman. So if she’s a white woman and her attacker is a minority or someone of a lower class, then we’ll give her the benefit of the doubt.

Comment #1: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/08  at  11:05 AM

People with money are more likely to be robbed, so everyone quit their jobs!

Comment #2: rea  on  07/08  at  11:13 AM

I thought it was horrible more than anything because it gave women the idea that they could control their attackers by wearing a different kind of clothing or hair style.  You’re going to have women reading this and thinking, “Hey - I can just rape-proof myself by wearing full length skirts and turtle-neck sweaters.  Now no one will try to attack me!”

I mean, I’d love to see the rape statistics in the burka-wearing community.  Logically, if a woman is covered head-to-toe in a black shower curtain, she’ll have the rape resistance of a thousand cans of pepper spray, right?

It’s not that it “excuses” a guy with a desire to abuse a woman.  I’m more than confident that any rapist - or prospective rapist - will come up with a thousand different reasons forgiving his own behavior without any help from the Telegraph.  But it gives a modestly dressed woman a false sense of security.  Worried about going out late at night through the back end of town with the high crime rate and the violent street gangs?  Don’t be!  Just throw on some sweats, down a non-alcoholic beer, and don’t wink or smile at anybody, and you’ll be freak’n bulletproof!

Comment #3: Zifnab  on  07/08  at  11:13 AM

<Sigh.>
Anthropology question (DrDick, I hope you are here) that I hope won’t threadjack:  Has there ever been a culture that regards rape as a wrong that women—rather than property-holding men—suffer, a violation of their dignity and personhood, what we think of as their human rights? 

You hear about societies where rape is not present, and we live in one that condones it.  I am just wondering whether there’s any consensus in any human society in the world that says it is wrong for a man to coerce a woman into sexual acts.

Comment #4: Unree  on  07/08  at  11:19 AM

Telegraph took the piece down, FWIW.

Amanda and Mighty Ponygirl have the bigger picture. What I don’t understand is how this piece even got published. I don’t know about the Telegraph but if this had happened at the paper I used to work at, someone would get fired. I’ve read the story and reread the story; there is but no question that the author and/or the editor just flat out made stuff up. This is not a mistake of interpretation or a mistake of sloppy research; this is just out and out bullshit. I can’t see how someone doesn’t get fired over this.

Comment #5: SufferingBruin  on  07/08  at  11:23 AM

Unree - the ancient celts?  I’ve certainly heard that about them, but it might be historical revisionism.  Any anthropologists who can confirm the yea or nay?

Comment #6: Seraph  on  07/08  at  11:43 AM

I see the “make shit up” school of science reporting is still alive and kicking. Good on Ben Goldacre, he is very good at getting to the bottom of bullshit like this. Even when it gets him sued.

Comment #7: MaxPolun  on  07/08  at  11:50 AM

Suffering Bruin,
As I understand it—and I could certainly be wrong here—the Telegraph isn’t much more of a paper than the New York Post, but without the redeeming Sports section. It’s a source that immediately sets off alarm bells for me when I see it cited as proof of anything. The fact that the Telegraph took this piece down is a testament to just how bad it was.

Comment #8: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  07/08  at  11:54 AM

Fuck.

Promiscuous men rape more often becomes drunken short skirt wearing flirts get raped more often, even when the research shows the men go further with sober women.

Fuck.

I have two little girls.  How the hell do I fight this?  I mean, I DO, and I will, but shit.  All the time.

Comment #9: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/08  at  12:00 PM

What I don’t understand is how this piece even got published. I don’t know about the Telegraph but if this had happened at the paper I used to work at, someone would get fired.

I brought this up the other day in regard to the article quoted in this thread. I think the answer to your question is contained in the question posed in this AJR article: “As newspapers shed copy editors and post more and more unedited stories online, what’s the impact on their content?”

It’s not that these articles made it past the slot and got to print, it’s that at a lot of MSM outlets there is no slot anymore.

That’s in addition to the fact that, at most general-interest newspapers, you’re lucky to find one reporter who’s capable of handling the science and tech beats (and really most beats that are expected to deal seriously with quants).

Comment #10: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  12:03 PM

Alright, this particular study was cited in Psychology Today, so who knows how the science is, but here’s a study that says that rapists tend to target women who look like cowed victims, basically, and the very modestly dressed are often interpreted as being more cowed. Which means that I’ve been covering my shoulders every time I leave the house since I was eleven for NO GOOD REASON. I blame the Patriarchy for my farmer’s tan.

(Disgustingly, that study was called “Attracting Assault: Victim’s Nonverbal Cues”, and Grayson was at the time a professor of marketing, but it’s at least more scientific than the Telegraph. Also, wow, I’m seriously not steely enough to read actual studies where male college students are asked to rate women’s rapability from videos of their walking stride. I know the findings might actually be useful but ew, ew, ew.)

Comment #11: purpleshoes  on  07/08  at  12:06 PM

Wow. The Telegraph really hates women.

Comment #12: Mark  on  07/08  at  12:10 PM

Unree - the ancient celts?  I’ve certainly heard that about them, but it might be historical revisionism.  Any anthropologists who can confirm the yea or nay?

The “ancient celts” never really existed in the sense I think you mean. There were a whole bunch of cultures and peoples who spoke languages from the Celtic group, but we know surprisingly little about their day-to-day lives and societies other than that they were not really a cohesive culture in the modern sense. However, there does seem to have been a general meta-culture based around an elite warrior class and lots of internecine raiding, primarily of cattle and slaves. The standard unit of value used throughout the Ulster Cycle is the cumal, which was the value of a female slave. Not exactly a feminist utopia then…

As I understand it—and I could certainly be wrong here—the Telegraph isn’t much more of a paper than the New York Post

It’s generally regarded as a fairly respectable paper, only slightly less respectable than The Times. It’s the Tory equivalent of The Guardian. It is also widely suspected to be one of the main propaganda outlets used by the security services. Oh, and it’s also the paper which broke the massive scandal over MPs expenses which has been convulsing the British political landscape for what seems like forever now…

Comment #13: Dunc  on  07/08  at  12:11 PM

Doncha know women cause rape by existing?

Comment #14: The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker  on  07/08  at  12:11 PM

Goldacre is pretty kickass.  I love reading his badscience website. The truth is, SufferingBruin, that the bar for research that gets into the press (when it comes to sex, vaccines, and other hot-button issues) is much lower.  As a sci. journalist, I’ve seen some of the shadiest, most preliminary or equivocal research make it into press releases.  And then, it’s a self-reinforcing system, because the people who make press releases develop a keen eye for what gets picked up, and the editors are always looking for something that’s either new, important, or interesting.  Since most science is incremental, things that are both the first two don’t come around enough to fill the pages of the newspapers. So “interesting” (in this case code for crap science and controversial and offensive) becomes the the metric they use.  And then, because people link to and comment so much on those offensive articles, and page-hits are used as a measure of success, the no-publicity-is-bad-publicity rule kicks in.

Unree, I think there is a book by an anthropologist called Peggy Reeves Sanday who looked into what cultures were rape-free versus rape-prone, and what characteristics they had. It was mostly about how concepts of “brotherhood” (as in the fraternity kind) led to rape, if I remember correctly.  I couldn’t get through it all (too triggery for pleasure reading), but maybe it has some answers.

Comment #15: t-ster  on  07/08  at  12:12 PM

Newsweek actually had a decent takedown of EP recently. I think they gave the EP crowd too much credit , but it was still pretty good, and much better than what I expected.

Comment #16: MH  on  07/08  at  12:12 PM

They could have massively simplifed this down to “Women who leave their houses more often are more likely to be raped” and reduced it to the most Talibanic conclusion possible.  That’s because younger women are more likely to dress in “certain ways” and also more likely to leave their houses.

I wish social scientists and the media stupids would PLEASE get a grasp of confounding variables in statistical associations!

Comment #17: Ms Kate  on  07/08  at  12:13 PM

Oh, and saying that “men are more likely to rape women meeting certain criteria” is hella different from the supposition that “therefore, women should watch themselves and are responsible for the uncontrolled violent behavior of men”.  It just gets us back to the “well, gay murder in the military is about DADT anxiety”.  Yeah.  So?

Comment #18: Ms Kate  on  07/08  at  12:16 PM

Anthropology question (DrDick, I hope you are here) that I hope won’t threadjack:  Has there ever been a culture that regards rape as a wrong that women—rather than property-holding men—suffer, a violation of their dignity and personhood, what we think of as their human rights?

As I understand it (and we’ll definitely need DrDick to confirm this), you will not be surprised to hear that when women have more power in their culture, they’re less likely to be raped.  The one that sprang to mind was the Iroquois, where women owned most of the property and elected the chiefs and where rape was apparently pretty much unknown.  (Well, at least until the English showed up.)

Comment #19: Mnemosyne  on  07/08  at  12:20 PM

One more thing: it is my experience that even top-flight science reporters have little or true grasp of other than the simplest of statistics.  It is frustrating enough when talking about air pollution, more frustrating when it gets to superimposing spurious conclusions on research about “hot button topics” such as pregnancy.  I made it abundantly clear to the scientists that I fund and work with that conclusions such as “women who are pregnant should avoid air pollution” are spurious and harmfully redirect the responsibility to those with no control over the situation.  But the so-called “science reporters” who will make a big deal over their “journalism” cred when challenged by actual scientists who write things for a living run amok with the superfluous conclusions not made by investigators.  They should all have to screen their stories by Laurie Garrett if you ask me!

Amanda, since you seem to get most of this pretty well despite not being a scientist yourself, have you considered taking up science journalism?  With some foundational science courses you could make a good go at it.

Comment #20: Ms Kate  on  07/08  at  12:22 PM

From some of what I’m reading online, it looks like part of the problem with figuring out which cultures had more rape and which had less is that our definition of rape has changed over the past few centuries.  Today we would probably consider forcing a woman into marriage to be rape, but neither the Iroquois nor the English thought of it that way. 

And then you get into a weird question of if the woman who was forcibly married didn’t consider it rape, would she be as traumatized by it as by a “real” rape, or would she just consider it an unpleasant circumstance in her life that had to be dealt with, like a chronic illness?

Comment #21: Mnemosyne  on  07/08  at  12:27 PM

Well, obviously we need to look at our Muslim brethren for guidance.

If we force all women to wear the veil (under whatever name) head to toe, deny them full human rights, force them to always be accompanied by male relatives or spouses, and otherwise make women prisoners in their own country, I’m sure we can eliminate rape once and for all…

...except as legitimate punishment for when some women brings shame on her family…

Comment #22: MikeEss  on  07/08  at  12:29 PM

Huh, Ms. Kate—I don’t know if that’s true. 

I in my experience (at more sciency pubs), editors insist on the statistics at least not being crap. I had to take a few graduate statistics classes in my day as part of my major and most reporters who reported on health did as well.  One of the first things the editor asks you is to explain what the statistics are, what the sample size in a study is, what the confounding factors could be, whether they are doing stratified analysis, etc. etc.  I mean, we definitely aren’t reworking the statistics or anything, but most basic stuff (P-values, etc.) I think people have a decent grasp of.  I guess it depends on whether the publication is for scientists though, or whether they regularly report on health news.  I feel like health (and psych) reporters should have a better grasp of statistics because so much of the work in the field hinges on them, and they’re usually more complicated stats.

Comment #23: t-ster  on  07/08  at  12:31 PM

I find that the more these “journalists” scream, and beg me to stop, the more I want to keep crushing their knees with a sledge hammer.

It’s their fault.

Comment #24: I Heart Puppies  on  07/08  at  12:41 PM

I’m not talking about science publicaitons - I’m talking about non-scientist journalists tasked with reporting on science.  Science News manages to do a good job.  The major news papers have largely slashed their staff and stuck “see my journalism degree” types on the science beats - usually very young reporters or “mommy issues” lifestyle reporters, who don’t have or have not built the background to understand and properly translate findings.

I’ve been through three rounds of this recently - with reporters in the EU and US.  It is a sad commentary on the state of newspapers in the world.

Comment #25: Ms Kate  on  07/08  at  12:42 PM

Oh, and that Colbert report on life expectancy?  He got that right - maybe he should be doing the science communications!

The backstory on that Colbert Report on C. Arden Pope III and Doug Dockery’s reanalysis of American Cancer Society data appearing on Colbert is a very funny one, indeed.  You see, Arden Pope looks, sounds, and gestures like Colbert - it is kind of startling ... and his grad students kind of set him up.  http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3060/2868446882_55984f9558.jpg

Comment #26: Ms Kate  on  07/08  at  12:46 PM

Fuck statistics. 

Either a man is a rapist or not (potential or actual).  It matters not whether the victim made it easier or not; he was who he was before she got drunk; a prime Grade A asshole.  Her behavior doesn’t change who he is.  And if anybody says “well men get raped too,” I’m gonna reach through the screen and throttle your sorry ass.

Comment #27: Magis  on  07/08  at  12:52 PM

Link to Goldacre was messed up (for me), good link here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/04/bad-science-rape-study-telegraph

Dunno, even if the research confirmed that provocatively dressed women were more likely to get raped, it would be telling a lot more about the rapists than about the victims. I can certainly imagine rapists preferring to punish / rape the less socially acceptable women - the drink, scantly dressed, flirty ones -  either because there would be less outrage by society - same reason serial killers pick homeless and prostitutes - or because they consider themselves “judge, jury and executor” of their own perverted visions of justice and norm.

Comment #28: lostmypassword  on  07/08  at  12:58 PM

You’d think that men have enough interest in seeing women’s legs and being on the receiving end of women’s flirtations that they’d protest vigorously the use of violence to halt these behaviors.

Amanda heads me off at the pass.

Bird-doggers of the world! Unite to fight the forces of douchebaggery that would deny us the passive spectacle of glorious gams and delectable décolletage.

Now, anthropology and history;

There is a preserved legal document from Gaelo-Celtic Ireland - dating from the 11th century but linguistically traced to late antiquity or early medieval times - that indicates free women had the right to personally seek redress for rape. It also places the burden of raising the child of a rape solely upon the rapist. This seems to stem from the right of women, also delineated in the document, to hold property in their own right. Now, wether this tradition stems from continental Celts or from the pre-Indo-European population of Britain is entirely unknown, but one would think the Roman and Greek writers who spoke of the ancient Celts would have mentioned such a drastic departure from their societal norms. They certainly harped upon the only other major example of an ancient western society that allowed women significant personal rights; Sparta.

Unfortunately, the Spartans were (obviously) a very laconic people and they weren’t big on writing shit - like their legal system - down. One story has it that they wanted to write a constitution but the Spartan women took one look at what Dracon and Solon had done to women in Athens and said ‘no fucking way!’ (remember here that, to the Athenians and other Greeks, making sport of the Spartans for being ruled by their women was the norm.) We do have indications, however, that rape of non-spartan women was encouraged in young Spartan men while abuse of citizen women was, apparently, unheard of. On the other hand, the Spartan wedding ceremony itself was a dramatized rape.

And all of these people practiced chattel slavery and in the ancient world there was a fairly universal idea that slaves should be abused to a degree. Sexually and otherwise.

Comment #29: Sarcastro  on  07/08  at  01:02 PM

In regards to Celtic women….

It is quite true there were many different Celtic tribes and their customs varied.  We don’t know much, really, except what the Romans told us (their enemy)  Nonetheless, here’s a short article on (presumably) Gaulish women.

Celtic women have been praised by the Greeks and Romans for their beauty, fertility and courage. In those times there didn’t exist anything like “women’s lib” though. Greek and Roman women were handed over, along with everything they possessed, from the total power of their father directly into that of their husband, who had the right to chastise them or in certain cases even kill them aswell as any unwished for offspring. Daughters were married at will, often to suit political purposes, to secure alliances or were handed over as hostages to the enemy.
The Celts principially didn’t deviate much from those contemporary customs, but still their women seem to have had a lot more liberty and influence than those of the Greeks and the Romans and appear to have been much stronger, wilder and more self- confident. The marriage- laws were fairer, widows inherited the property and noblewomen often had political influence.

In some early Celtic tribes the descendance of the mother seems to have been predominat and the women seem to have been free, proud and sexually rather promisc. Caesar reports, that in Brittany some women shared several husbands among each other. When rebuked by the Emperess Julia Augusta because of her loose morals, the wife of the Caledonic Prince Argentocoxus answered:

“We fulfill the necessety of nature much better than Roman women do, for we have intercourse openly with the best, whereas you are abused secretly by the least!”

Those brave, strong and tall women were to be found even at battlegrounds. Whether they wore weapons and took an active part in the fighting or else only encouraged their men by yelling and shouting and cared for the wounded couldn’t be proofed, but the former seems likely if we hear what Ammianus Marcellinus has to say:

“When a Celt starts to quarrel with someone and his wife, who is grey- eyed and much stronger than him, comes to his assistance, no gang of strangers will take up with him, especially when, grinding her teeth, she waves her snowwhite arms and starts to distribute fistbeats and footkicks alternately”

Comment #30: Magis  on  07/08  at  01:03 PM

As I understand it—and I could certainly be wrong here—the Telegraph isn’t much more of a paper than the New York Post, but without the redeeming Sports section.

the Telegraph is colloquially termed the Torygraph due to it’s politics, and it’s deep abiding love affair with patriarchy. I’m not in the least surprised to find this story published by it, or that they lied like a flat fish - all the UK papers do, all the time.

And yet, sadly, the Torygraph is far from the worst of the UK papers (see the Mirror, or the Sun, for a beginning in that sewer-trip).

Oh, and it has an *excellent* bridge column smile

Comment #31: firefall  on  07/08  at  01:10 PM

Couple of things:

First of all, can we just frame the whole “scientist” thing properly, please? Ms Shaw is a Msters student. This “research” represents nothing more than some preliminary results she got as aprt of working on her thesis. You’d need to stretch the definition of the term “scientist” and “research” pretty far to call this story science reporting. It’s misogynist fantasy, published in the science pages.

And speaking of definitions, I have to disagree with Amanda and some of the commenters about rapists making justifications to themselves about how it’s women’s fault for being raped. I think this is how men justify not stopping other men from raping. Actual rapists hardly ever admit that what they did was rape. Not saying that if we banished this kind of bullshit from the media that wouldn’t help reduce rape, but it’s not a simple linear relationship, it’s a lot more complicated than that.

Comment #32: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  01:14 PM

The burqa doesn’t spare a woman anything. I couldn’t find the youtube vid with the young muslim men coming up behind women and tugging on their burqas while the women tried to walk away as quickly as possible, but I did find this on the sexual harassment problem in Egypt. Apparently, burqas save women from exactly nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGFZNd2jfR8&feature=PlayList&p=01293220D5047564&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=10

Comment #33: LCforevah  on  07/08  at  01:22 PM

“Apparently, burqas save women from exactly nothing.”

...that’s my understanding as well.  But, of course, you’d never hear that admission from the patriarchal Muslim leaders who keep this mindset alive…

But it is an interesting question.  If “provocative” clothes lead to rape (highly questionable), then “anti-provocative” like burqas should eliminate it…right?  But it seems like the definition of “provocative” just gets moved so whatever many women wear in a given culture is considered “provocative”, even if they are covered top to bottom.

Another good reason why the problem must be attacked from the men’s side of the issue and not the womens…

Comment #34: MikeEss  on  07/08  at  01:34 PM

I wonder if this is a real bother at all.

If it’s choadery for choads, does it affect real people?  And if it does, would it at all be possible to inform choads that their information and attitudes are wrong?

Comment #35: shah8  on  07/08  at  01:38 PM

MH piqued my interest re. the Newsweek take-down of evo psych.  Here’s the link to the article if anyone else is keen (thanks, MH, for telling me about this one)>

http://www.newsweek.com/id/202789/page/1

Comment #36: Ranylt  on  07/08  at  01:53 PM

“And if anybody says “well men get raped too,” I’m gonna reach through the screen and throttle your sorry ass.”

Not sure why that comment, as a response to yours, would be an issue in this context. Your point is that rapists are to blame and rapists are rapists before they do the deed. Not sure why their choice of victim would change that.

You’re right that her behavior didn’t change who he is; her gender didn’t change it either. Still excuses nothing, right?

Comment #37: Lymis  on  07/08  at  02:05 PM

I would like to invite Sarcastro to join ASCUAC, Admirers of Sexy Chicks United Against Choads.The choads are spoiling the fun for the rest of us who actually view women as, you know, members of the same species and stuff. We at ASCUAC believe that a woman should be able to act on whatever flirtatious impulses she might have with little worry about what she might be getting into. We believe that women should be able to wear whatever they want without being subjected to harassment or body-shaming.

On a more serious note. Roman women might not have had such a bad lot in life as some in this thread suggest:

http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/1/777777121908/

Comment #38: Bacopa  on  07/08  at  02:12 PM

As for a culture that promoted rape, how about the “First Night” mandate of kings and powerful men having the rights to bed any virgin women in their kingdom ?

Apparently the reports of laws like that in the middle ages are just rumor but it did happen in earlier times:

readers of Herodotus were made to understand that such a custom had obtained among the tribe of the “Adyrmachidae” in distant ancient Libya, where Herodotus thought it unique: “They are also the only tribe with whom the custom obtains of bringing all women about to become brides before the king, that he may choose such as are agreeable to him.

and

Some scholars have speculated that the jus primae noctis of the Medieval European tradition did exist, and that it might have been similar to defloration rituals in Ancient Mesopotamia or 13th century Tibet

It does seem rape has been used throughout history to humiliate the victim and her family or her tribe, having little to do with the way she dressed or talked.

Comment #39: lostmypassword  on  07/08  at  02:15 PM

Would it be possible to create an incentive for newspapers to hire better science writers—if researchers and their institutions would often sue the newspapers for inaccurate reporting?

Comment #40: asdf  on  07/08  at  02:17 PM

Perhaps asdf, but many science labs couldn’t afford the time or money to do so.

Comment #41: MissCherryPi  on  07/08  at  02:22 PM

“Provocative” is completely relative.  I remember in high school that I would notice boys a little more in spring when they were wearing short-sleeved shirts after a long, cold winter of thick sweaters.  Of course, I got used to it within a few days.  So, if every woman starts wearing turtlenecks and floor-length skirts, eventually the sight of an ankle will seem provocative.  This is exactly what happens with the burqa.  There are only 2 solutions.  Either we can accept that rapists will always rape provocative women, and then we’ll have to force everyone to be naked all the time because you just can’t be provocative once everyone is used to complete nudity, or we could just get the message out that women are actually people and then it won’t matter how provocative they are, because all men will respect them.  I honestly don’t know which option would be more feasible, since there are certain groups that are dead set against the idea that women are actually people.

Comment #42: bananacat  on  07/08  at  02:24 PM

Lymis, it’s been my personal experience that when people use the idea that “it happens to men too” they are trying to minimize the effect of the situation. The fact that men get raped too, does not address the issue of dress, the idea that it’s the woman’s fault, etc. In fact, when it comes to the rape of males by males, it is usually nakedly obvious that it’s a power issue. Men rape men who are different from them, whether gay, ethnic, or have some other sort of powerlessness. The rape of a black man by white policemen, nobody can equate that with the rape of a provocatively dressed female by a male who “couldn’t help himself.” With the issue of male rape of females, the power imbalance is hidden behind the misogynistic excuses that many men, women and yes, even children engage in. This is a culture that qualifies the rape of females—not so with the rape of males.

I also want to “throttle the sorry ass” of people who think they can equivocate with the “it happens to males too” excuse.

Comment #43: LCforevah  on  07/08  at  02:25 PM

True, Elizabeth. Maybe the ones at wealthier universities, though, could convince the administration that such a policy would be a good investment in the university’s reputation (I say this with the caveat that clueful educational administrations are rare).

Comment #44: asdf  on  07/08  at  02:28 PM

Lymis, it’s been my personal experience that when people use the idea that “it happens to men too” they are trying to minimize the effect of the situation.

Yep.  Ninety percent of the time, it’s, “Well, men get raped, too, so what are you women whining about?”  The fact that male rape primarily occurs in closed systems like prisons is conveniently overlooked so MRAs can whine about how they’re much bigger victims than women are, so therefore they should get all of the money and attention.

Not that prison rape is not a huge problem that needs serious attention, but given that the power dynamics are, as you said, quite similar, trying to turn attention away from male-on-female rape towards male-on-male rape without acknowledging that they spring from the same cultural well isn’t going to help either situation.

Comment #45: Mnemosyne  on  07/08  at  02:38 PM

would have mentioned such a drastic departure from their societal norms.

Yah think? From Tacitus, on the Germans:

Tacitus stands in the front rank of the historians of antiquity for the
accuracy of his learning, the fairness of his judgments, the richness,
concentration, and precision of his style. His great successor, Gibbon,
called him a “philosophical historian, whose writings will instruct the
last generations of mankind”; and Montaigne knew no author “who, in a
work of history, has taken so broad a view of human events or given a
more just analysis of particular characters.”

The “Germany” is a document of the greatest interest and importance,
since it gives us by far the most detailed account of the state of
culture among the tribes that are the ancestors of the modern Teutonic
nations, at the time when they first came into account with the
civilization of the Mediterranean.

To the husband, the wife tenders no dowry; but the husband, to the wife.
The parents and relations attend and declare their approbation of the
presents, not presents adapted to feminine pomp and delicacy, nor suchas serve to deck the new married woman; <u>but oxen and horse accoutred,
and a shield, with a javelin and sword</u>. By virtue of these gifts, she
is espoused. She too on her part brings her husband some arms. This they
esteem the highest tie, these the holy mysteries, and matrimonial Gods.
That the woman may not suppose herself free from the considerations of
fortitude and fighting, or exempt from the casualties of war, the very
first solemnities of her wedding serve to warn her, that she comes to
her husband as a partner in his hazards and fatigues, that she is to
suffer alike with him, to adventure alike, during peace or during war.

<u>This the oxen joined in the same yoke plainly indicate, this the horse
ready equipped, this the present of arms.</u> ‘Tis thus she must be content
to live, thus to resign life. The arms which she then receives she must
preserve inviolate, and to her sons restore the same, as presents worthy
of them, such as their wives may again receive, and still resign to her
grandchildren.

They therefore live in a state of chastity well secured; corrupted by no
seducing shows and public diversions, by no irritations from banqueting.
Of learning and of any secret intercourse by letters, they are all
equally ignorant, men and women. Amongst a people so numerous, adultery
is exceeding rare; a crime instantly punished, and the punishment left
to be inflicted by the husband
. He, having cut off her hair, expells her
from his house naked, in presence of her kindred, and pursues her with
stripes throughout the village. For, to a woman who has prostituted her
person, no pardon is ever granted. However beautiful she may be, however
young, however abounding in wealth, a husband she can never find. In
truth, nobody turns vices into mirth there, nor is the practice of
corrupting and of yielding to corruption, called the custom of the Age.
Better still do those communities, in which none but virgins marry, and
where to a single marriage all their views and inclinations are at once
confined. Thus, as they have but one body and one life, they take
but one husband, that beyond him they may have no thought, no further
wishes, nor love him only as their husband but as their marriage.
To restrain generation and the increase of children, is esteemed an
abominable sin, as also to kill infants newly born. And more powerful
with them are good manners, than with other people are good laws
.

Now I understand why I’m always so goddam polite.

Comment #46: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/08  at  02:38 PM

Would it be possible to create an incentive for newspapers to hire better science writers—if researchers and their institutions would often sue the newspapers for inaccurate reporting?

It might be, if the researchers and the institutions weren’t just pathetically grateful for the rare opportunity to see their names in a general-interest newspaper in the first place.

Most scientific researchers are willing to just let the inaccuracies and distortions stand in those newspapers because they’re not being read by the study’s intended audience. They’d be slightly more upset with a newspaper of record like the NYT doing so (which is why those papers do hire better science writers), and even more upset with a science/trade/industry publication doing so.

Still, it’s not entirely harmless for this sort of thing to happen ...

If it’s choadery for choads, does it affect real people?  And if it does, would it at all be possible to inform choads that their information and attitudes are wrong?

The problem is, it’s not only choads who read newspapers like the Telegraph—it’s people who’ve invested a degree of trust in the paper’s brand, assuming the science reporters know what they’re doing, and that there’s editorial oversight. That lends this sort of thing a low sort of “conventional wisdom” credibility, making it an acceptable, sanctioned-in-newsprint commonplace even for those who don’t believe in little green men, batboys, and Elvis sightings.

In short, whatever your opinion of the Telegraph (mine is pretty low), it’s not seen as an outlet for scientific choadery and woo like, say, the News of the World. It seems, though, that mainstream newspapers are slitting their own brands’ throats as they cut flesh and bone to survive.

Comment #47: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  02:39 PM

howabout a headline closer to the truth -

“It Doesn’t Matter What you Wear, Really. We Just Want You Women to BE AFRAID!!!
AH BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA!”

Comment #48: Danica Lefse Queen  on  07/08  at  03:10 PM

I dunno, DAOCM.  There seems to be an awful lot of “noble savage” in Tacitus’s description of the Teutonic tribes.  If nothing else, we know that they definitely had a written language, which means that this:

They therefore live in a state of chastity well secured; corrupted by no
seducing shows and public diversions, by no irritations from banqueting.
Of learning and of any secret intercourse by letters, they are all
equally ignorant, men and women.

Is inaccurate at best.

On the other hand, hair-cutting as a punishment for adulteresses could explain why Thor was fixin’ to kill Loki for shaving Sif’s head until Loki made with all the extravagant reparations.

Comment #49: Seraph  on  07/08  at  03:14 PM

Either a man is a rapist or not (potential or actual).  It matters not whether the victim made it easier or not; he was who he was before she got drunk; a prime Grade A asshole.

It can matter, if the actual result is a rape.  There are different types of rapists, and even within those types some rapists will be set off by certain things, just like all sorts of people have behaviours triggered by something.

Before the knees start jerking, I do not mean that the person doing the triggering has done anything wrong.  A good example are the rapists who break into houses and, upon finding a single woman asleep, assault her.  She hasn’t done anything at all other than being unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Some rapists look for targets they consider weak or easy: a drunk woman would possibly attract one of them.  Some look for ones whose story about a rape would be difficult to verify or prove (a prostitute, for instance).  There are probably some who look for a challenge.  Some who go after the first woman they see at that particular moment.  Some have to do it as part of a group because they need the peer pressure or support to actually do it.  Some do think a woman wearing revealing clothing is asking for it.

Basically, a person could “provoke” a rapist for any number of reasons, including existing, depending on when and where they happen to encounter a specific rapist with a particular trigger.  But assuming it therefore doesn’t matter, if your goal is preventing rapes, is wrongheaded, because sometimes it does.  If there is a rapist running around breaking into houses that make it easy for him to get in and assaulting women as they sleep, well in that case potential victims do have some responsibility in doing some things to lessen their odds of being attacked.  If some asswipe is a suspected date rapist, why would anyone decide to be alone with him?  The victims certainly aren’t asking for it, don’t deserve it happening, the rapist is certainly scum of the lowest order, but that doesn’t mean that sometimes the victim didn’t make it easier than it otherwise might have been, regardless of the fact it doesn’t excuse the crime.

Rape is no different from any other crime in that sense.  Just because theft is wrong and I shouldn’t have to lock my house when I’m away doesn’t mean I don’t, and just because murder is wrong and I should be able to walk the streets without any worries doesn’t mean I avoid the guy I see lurking in the dark alley holding a piece of pipe.

Comment #50: KeithM  on  07/08  at  03:15 PM

Just to be clear, I don’t think there’s a clear line where you can divide things between “things that are reasonable to do in order to reduce the odds of an attack” and “things that are completely unreasonable to expect a person to do”.  Demanding that women have to dress a certain way in order to “protect” themselves is totally unreasonable.  If there’s a high number of attacks in a given area, well, perhaps not walking alone at night would be, whereas if an area is generally considered safe, it is unreasonable.  Again, just like all crimes.

Comment #51: KeithM  on  07/08  at  03:28 PM

then we’ll have to force everyone to be naked all the time because you just can’t be provocative once everyone is used to complete nudity, or we could just get the message out that women are actually people and then it won’t matter how provocative they are, because all men will respect them.  I honestly don’t know which option would be more feasible, since there are certain groups that are dead set against the idea that women are actually people.

Both/and blog catgirl.  :b

Comment #52: D  on  07/08  at  03:31 PM

shah8 on 07/08 at 12:38 PM:

Hardly choadery for choads I’m afraid. The great British public, who the Torygraph serves, and whose prejudices it has a mandate to reflect back with a patina of journalistic respectability, are still prone to believing that a woman is sometimes responsible for her own rape.

This is serious because the Telegraph is not marginal, and not wingnut-ey. It’s a right wing paper, but it’s a right wing broadsheet paper that prides itself on being “serious”, and one currently occuping a lot of high moral ground in the wake of the role it played in exposing corruption in Parliament. For them to publish something which is not only irresponsible but just quite simply a pack of lies is something we ought to be paying attention to, because they have a lot of credibility even with people who don’t agree with their politics.

Comment #53: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  03:33 PM

Fuck statistics.

Either a man is a rapist or not (potential or actual).  It matters not whether the victim made it easier or not; he was who he was before she got drunk; a prime Grade A asshole.  Her behavior doesn’t change who he is.  And if anybody says “well men get raped too,” I’m gonna reach through the screen and throttle your sorry ass.

You need to read this series of articles.  In particular, note the checklist in this part and think how it might apply in, say, a fraternity.

The assumption that people either are or are not evil is simplistic.  A hell of a lot of human evil (and, possibly, good) is situational - people can be assimiliated or led into evil (and, presumably, also into good).

Comment #54: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/08  at  03:33 PM

On the topic of women in history, aren’t we mixing up a whole bundle of different examples here? Herodotus is one of the most notorious fantasists of antiquity (typical historian! wink), so let’s discount him; but I’ve seen examples above from British tribes, Gauls, Germanic peoples and I think the one about “they had a wrting system etc.” refers to Norse Dark Ages society. These are all very different ketle of fish, spread out quite wide in both space and time.

How about some recent examples? Anyone know where to dig out rape statistics about women by socio-economic group, income level, education level and career seniority? If we’re making the right assumption about women with power over their lives being less prone to rape (which seems logical on the face of it), then we ought to be able to see this in action…

Comment #55: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  03:38 PM

“well men get raped too,”

Men do get raped.  There are statistics on this - it is much less common and much less commonly reported, but it does happen whether your reality can accomodate it or not. They also get less support when they are raped.

In either case, rapists are responsible, not the victim.  HOWEVER, properly applied research and statistics can help us assess various angles of the problem, identify patterns that permit intervention, and then see if anti-rape interventions in men who are more likely to rationalize or justify their actions are doing any good.

“Fuck Statistics” is the official mantra of the wingnuts - and all others who seek no deeper understanding of reality for the purposes of changing that reality.

Comment #56: Ms Kate  on  07/08  at  03:41 PM

She hasn’t done anything at all other than being unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Isn’t this true of ALL rape victims ?

Comment #57: lostmypassword  on  07/08  at  03:44 PM

Doncha know women cause rape by existing?

True. If women didn’t exist, they wouldn’t get raped. QED.

Comment #58: Lauren O  on  07/08  at  03:44 PM

Not to mention that the fact that “men get raped too” is a very strong counterargument to the idea that “it is something the woman did to deserve it”, especially if that “something” has to do with feminine gender expression.

Comment #59: Ms Kate  on  07/08  at  03:47 PM

Bird-doggers of the world! Unite to fight the forces of douchebaggery that would deny us the passive spectacle of glorious gams and delectable décolletage.

I would like to invite Sarcastro to join ASCUAC, Admirers of Sexy Chicks United Against Choads.

And reducing women to eye-fuck candy isn’t douchebaggery?  Seeing feminist men treat women like meat in this thread has left me feeling a little brain raped today.  Excuse me, I have to go be sick now.

Comment #60: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  04:16 PM

And reducing women to eye-fuck candy isn’t douchebaggery?  Seeing feminist men treat women like meat in this thread has left me feeling a little brain raped today.  Excuse me, I have to go be sick now.

Get thee to they fainting couch, there beeeth pearls to be clutched!

Comment #61: Ms Kate  on  07/08  at  04:18 PM

Lady, I’m not reeling from a shock to my system, I’m having a rational reaction to seeing men act like your stereotypical sexually entitled objectifying jerk-offs.  I didn’t know Pandagon attracted the Girls Gone Wild set.

Comment #62: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  04:23 PM

Isn’t this true of ALL rape victims ?

I suppose you could argue that a woman who gets raped by a guy she thought was a friend was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but that’s still a different circumstance than someone who’s the victim of a break-in, especially since the creep in question in the first circumstance has probably been working his nerve up to attack that specific woman for quite a while before he finally attacks.

Riffing off that, I do think that social pressure has a lot more influence on marginal people than most people assume.  Fifty or 60 years ago, people would gather in the town square to watch a public lynching, in part because there was social pressure within the community to participate.  Nowadays, thankfully, you’re hard-pressed to find two or three guys who will get together to lynch someone, and people whose fathers or grandfathers participated in lynchings are horrified when those crimes do occur, again in part because they’re no longer socially acceptable.

For guys who are not Ted Bundy, social pressure to not rape would actually have a pretty salutary effect.  Already we’ve seen a big drop in the rate of assault just since rape became a social issue in the 1970s.  We already know that otherwise ordinary people can do pretty horrendous things given the right circumstances—why would we assume that rape would be any different than those other kinds of abuse?

Comment #63: Mnemosyne  on  07/08  at  04:28 PM

I’m having a rational reaction to seeing men act like your stereotypical sexually entitled objectifying jerk-offs.

Men look at women, women look at men, and some people look at people of the same sex—it’s one of the nice, natural things about being human and living in a culture where we trust the vast majority of adults to admire the bodies and faces of strangers without the follow-up of a physical assault.

There are cultures where that trust doesn’t exist, of course—ours doesn’t happen to be one of them. And there are blogs that are highly regulated safe spaces—Pandagon doesn’t happen to be one of them.

Comment #64: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  04:33 PM

Lady, I’m not reeling from a shock to my system, I’m having a rational reaction to seeing men act like your stereotypical sexually entitled objectifying jerk-offs.  I didn’t know Pandagon attracted the Girls Gone Wild set.

You have to admit, it’s interesting that you automatically assume that men talking about attractive women is an implicit rape threat.  If it weren’t, you wouldn’t find it triggering.

Not saying that our resident men are free from douchebaggery, of course.  But it is interesting that when men say they’d like to be able to admire women without having the women being admired fear they’re going to be raped, you automatically assumed it was another way for them to say they want to control women.

Comment #65: Mnemosyne  on  07/08  at  04:38 PM

Yeah, thanks.  I’ve been a lurker for a while and have enjoyed the commentary almost as much as the posts, but I see now that if you don’t want to be exposed to the patriarchal mindset that encourages men to treat women like meat, you’ve got to get off this train.  Ok, fine.  Getting off now.  Bye bye.  I look forward to continuing to patronize public spaces where men treat women respectfully.  Pandagon is not one of them.

Comment #66: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  04:39 PM

Pardon, you have no right to eye-fuck me without my consent.  Got it?

Comment #67: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  04:40 PM

Lymis and Piator:

I’m not moving from my statement, not one inch.  I don’t care if it’s fratboy group mentality or if different pervs have different triggers.  Either you will have sex with a woman without her consent or you won’t–ever–period.  I won’t, not ever.  Most men won’t, not ever.  Sorry, yes it is that simple.  Yes, it is that black and white.  Maybe I’m just an old curmudgeon but, goddamit, somethings are black and white.

Comment #68: Magis  on  07/08  at  04:41 PM

Either you will have sex with a woman without her consent or you won’t–ever–period.  ...  Most men won’t, not ever.

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/06/is_there_a_rape_switch.php

Comment #69: asdf  on  07/08  at  04:46 PM

“Pardon, you have no right to eye-fuck me without my consent.  Got it?”

...um, present yourself any way you want.  But don’t assume you can, or have the right to, control other people’s reactions to how you look/sound/smell/write/etc…

Comment #70: MikeEss  on  07/08  at  04:51 PM

Doesn’t that take the cake.  Now “feminist” men are telling me that they have the right to use my body for their personal sexual gratification if they damn well please.  That there is no physical contact involved does not detract from the sexual entitlement inherent in your statement.  If you want me to be your sex object, regardless of whether or not I want to be, I’m going to damn well be your sex object.  Is that what you’re telling me?  You’re saying that I have no right to decide whether or not I want to be a sex object?  That a man’s right to objectify me supercedes my body autonomy?  You can’t see how this mentality contributes to rape culture?

Comment #71: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  04:57 PM

asdf:

Still not changing.  I know the sad history of Berlin, Nanking, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

If you want me to agree that it takes some men more to go over the edge, fine.  So what?

If you are arguing that any man will become a rapist under certain circumstances; I call bullshit.

Comment #72: Magis  on  07/08  at  05:02 PM

So if I’m looking to pick a guy up at the club for a one night stand, I’m not allowed to look for a fella with pecs that I find attractive?

Comment #73: asdf  on  07/08  at  05:03 PM

But don’t assume you can, or have the right to, control other people’s reactions to how you look/sound/smell/write/etc…

I’m not happy going there, because while I agree that admiring someone’s looks isn’t the same as objectifying them, I’m not going to stand up and defend to the death your or my inalienable right to gawk at women whether they like it or not. It’s entirely possible to be a douchebag without being a rapist, and it’s well accepted that there’s a huge difference between noticing a hot woman and, for example, openly leering or making crude comments at her. When you start making demands on her attention or don’t care that you’re making her uncomfortable, you cross the line into choadery. In a sense blog comments about how rape is bad because men shouldn’t be deprived of the right to ogle hot women hits the same nerve in me that getting leered at on the street does. I get that people aren’t trying to be offensive, but I don’t blame anyone for being uncomfortable.

Comment #74: junk science  on  07/08  at  05:04 PM

If you are arguing that any man will become a rapist under certain circumstances; I call bullshit.

No, I’m not arguing that. Like the Milgram experiments show us, there are a minority of people who will act against their stated morals under pressure.

I just think the percentage of those who would never rape, under any circumstances, is much lower than we usually imagine.

Comment #75: asdf  on  07/08  at  05:06 PM

sorry, typo:

Like the Milgram experiments show us, there are a minority of people who will not act against their stated morals under pressure.

Comment #76: asdf  on  07/08  at  05:07 PM

Thank you, Junk Science.  There is indeed a huge difference between noticing that a woman is attractive and letting your eyes roam over her body, fantasizing about her, looking at her in an overtly sexual way, consuming her with your eyes, eye-fucking her, et al. 

I can tell when I’m being objectified and it feels very much like a mental kind of rape.  It makes me feel violated and powerless, dehumanized.

Comment #77: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  05:09 PM

I don’t think anyone was defending leering.

Comment #78: asdf  on  07/08  at  05:16 PM

“If you want me to be your sex object, regardless of whether or not I want to be, I’m going to damn well be your sex object.”

...correct.  The same is true for both genders. 

People delight in looking at other people.  That’s one of the basic facts of life.  And equating looking at somebody with rape is kind of a stretch (and offensive to those who’ve actually been raped), don’t you think?

You can wear a burqua and hide away from the public, but someone so inclined will still figure out how to turn you into a sex object if they want to.  For someone with an active enough imagination, just reading what you wrote is enough to prompt thoughts you are trying to equate with rape.

Your “body autonomy” is not threatened if someone looks at you (at least in a normal sense - this is not true if they snuck a camera into your bathroom, for example).  It is threatened by touching, threats of violence, intimidation, etc.

But a simple look?  Hard to buy that one…

“You’re saying that I have no right to decide whether or not I want to be a sex object?”

You certainly have the right to decline appearing in that Playboy spread they’re always pestering you about.  But appearing in front of another human being is something we all do.  And we have no control over how others view us.  And we never will.

“That a man’s right to objectify me supercedes my body autonomy?”

It’s not about men and women, it’s about people.  And it doesn’t supersede anything.  You are the one who decides you feel violated if someone looks at you.  The person looking has little to do with it except as a catalyst.

“You can’t see how this mentality contributes to rape culture?”

Frankly, no I can’t see a connection. 

Rape, as I’ve been told since I was a wee lad, is all about power and control, it’s not about sex. 

Someone who sees you and thinks pleasant thoughts (or unpleasant thoughts) is not controlling you, and probably (unless they are your boss or something) does not have power over you…

Comment #79: MikeEss  on  07/08  at  05:19 PM

That a man’s right to objectify me supercedes my body autonomy?

There are two fallacies in this statement in the context of Western culture. First, admiration of someone’s physical characteristics doesn’t automatically equate to objectification. Second, we usually consider the autonomy of an individual’s body to end about a foot away from said body’s epidermal layer (colloquially known as “personal space”). A glance of no more than 5-10 seconds, and a reasonable tone of address (i.e. no moronic catcalls) also helps preserve this autonomy.

As noted above, there are cultures that believe that those boundaries are a lot different. Granted, they’re not cultures that most American feminists would feel comfortable in, either, but no woman in a burqa can claim that she was “eye-fucked” by a stranger.

Comment #80: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  05:19 PM

That’s only part of the picture, asdf.  Some of us think we deserve the right to decide when and to whom we will be sex objects.  I don’t want random dudes looking at me like I’m a piece of meat, it offends me deeply.  I know I’m not alone in this.

Comment #81: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  05:20 PM

Great, more justification for sexually objectifying women against their will.  I’m sorry, was this a feminist blog?  I think I may have accidentally stumbled into 4chan.

Comment #82: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  05:23 PM

asdf:

There are two kinds of evil people:  Those who have done evil and those who haven’t had the chance yet.  I suppose, to use evil in in broadest sense, we’re all evil to some degree.

That being said, boys don’t need to hear a sociological lecture about situational ethics.  They need to learn “no, not ever, for any reason.”  They need to hear that they will be disowned for ever and not have a place in decent society. 

The very essence of human dignity, IMHO, is bodily autonomy.  To violate that, especially violently, is beyond the pale for a decent human being.  There is no equivication.  If indeed a majority would be willing to hurt someone under social pressure; that says as much about how we’re raising our kids as it does anything else.  Unless you think evil is inherent and not socialized.

Comment #83: Magis  on  07/08  at  05:24 PM

There is indeed a huge difference between noticing that a woman is attractive and letting your eyes roam over her body, fantasizing about her, looking at her in an overtly sexual way, consuming her with your eyes, eye-fucking her, et al.

And what is it about “the passive spectacle of glorious gams and delectable décolletage” that implied Sarcastro was doing anything other than noticing that the woman (and particularly her legs and breasts) is attractive? He did use the word “passive” (which excludes active leering), after all. The language he used was over-the-top, but obviously not meant seriously (unless he’s the re-incarnation of W.C. Fields or Walter Winchell).

Comment #84: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  05:24 PM

asdf, probably not, but some of the comments were getting to be on the creepy side, as if rape is bad mostly because it deprives men of female eye candy. I get that people were trying to be lighthearted, and I don’t have any hard feelings towards most of the regulars here, but I would tone that kind of thing down. I mean, it can be done. I notice hot women all the time, and I manage to keep my inner douchebag to myself. The thought that if women fear rape, I might not get to see as many bare legs never actually did occur to me.

Comment #85: junk science  on  07/08  at  05:25 PM

I certainly agree there is “good” looking and “bad” looking, although it’s obvious this is an extremely subjective thing.

“I don’t want random dudes looking at me like I’m a piece of meat, it offends me deeply.”

Fine.  Short of locking yourself in a bunker away from all other people, exactly how do you propose to stop a “random dude” from thinking you look hot?...

Comment #86: MikeEss  on  07/08  at  05:25 PM

I think I may have accidentally stumbled into 4chan.

It’s not 4chan until someone mentions Z҉A҉L҉G҉O̚̕̚. He Comes!

Ok, now this is 4chan.

Comment #87: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  05:29 PM

MikeEss, if your objective was to intimidate and verbally “put me in my place” in this grand patriarchal hierarchy where women exist primarily to gratify men, you’ve succeeded.

Gracchus, you’re being intentionally obtuse.

Comment #88: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  05:32 PM

She hasn’t done anything at all other than being unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Isn’t this true of ALL rape victims ?

In a general “We wish rape didn’t exist” sense, sure.  And quite often in the “She just happened to be the one he picked/ran across/lived on the same planet with” situations.

In the real world, however, nothing’s ever that simple.  Use the date rape example: why in the holy hell would a woman go out with a guy who she knows has a history of assault, blatant misogyny, or any of the warning signs that a blind person would recognize?  We know this happens.  In that case, she has done something to put herself in that situation.  Does she deserve what happens?  Of course not, no one does.  Did she expect it to happen?  Hell no, not unless she has a psychological condition.  But she made it easier, intentionally or not.  She deserves no blame for the rape, and no culpability in its cause (because he probably would have gone after someone who didn’t know about that background, so whether or not she knew about it is immaterial in the actual crime) but she did make a mistake.  Maybe the mistake was in thinking that he’d treat her differently, maybe a mistake in her sense of how well she could defend herself, maybe a mistake in getting tanked and being maneuvered into a situation where he could do it, but it was a mistake.

We’d all love it if that sort of mistake didn’t happen, but it does.  Just like a mistake in not looking at an intersection even you have the light can get you run over, or forgetting your keys in an unlocked car can get it stolen.  Nothing reduces the culpability of that drunk racing against the light, or the guy jacking your car, but still, you made a mistake.

Comment #89: KeithM  on  07/08  at  05:33 PM

“I notice hot women all the time, and I manage to keep my inner douchebag to myself.”

...as do I.  As do most of the regulars around here, I would assume.

But it seems just making the determination that somebody is “hot” is enough for NoSafeSpaceForMe to determine you are violating that person’s bodily integrity.

I’m not saying you must present yourself as hot for the benefit of society.  And I also believe you have every right to show yourself any way you want, from being covered head to toe, to being uncovered head to toe.

And I can understand if you are being stared at, commented on, whistled at, receiving rude gestures, etc., that this is unacceptable.  But there is a huge difference between that and just seeing someone…IMHO…

Comment #90: MikeEss  on  07/08  at  05:34 PM

There are cultures where that trust doesn’t exist, of course—ours doesn’t happen to be one of them.

I find it jaw-droppingly astonishing that you would say that, in the context of this thread no less… It should be glaringly obvious that women not only live in realistic fear of rape, but that their fears are being nurtured and pushed as “common sense” by so called respectable publications… There is no trust. Being sexually assaulted is always an option. I’m sorry, but that is the reality of most women’s lives.

And there are blogs that are highly regulated safe spaces—Pandagon doesn’t happen to be one of them.

True, and also true that the responsible maturity attitude cuts both ways. Bullshit is called. Over-reactions and heightened sensitivities are discouraged through a medium of mutual respect and good manners, not silencing. That’s what I like about this place - no histrionics, but no denialism, either.

Comment #91: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  05:35 PM

Gracchus, you’re being intentionally obtuse.

Not at all. I’m addressing some of your statements. I wish I could say you were returning that consideration, but I understand that’s not your main point here (your main point seems to be that Pandagon = 4chan, which pretty much says it all).

Comment #92: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  05:37 PM

...I think all he’s saying is that sometimes human beings are attracted to other human beings in a totally casual and non-threatening manner (god knows that I’ve been known to oggle attractive members of either sex without having any inclination to start up a conversation with them, much less assault them) and that includes heterosexual men.

If by ‘eye-fuck’ you mean stare aggressively, get in your space, follow you around—then I’m totally in agreement that nobody has the right to do that to you or anybody else. But if by ‘eye-fuck’ you mean ‘find attractive’, I have to say—and I mean this as a serious question—what do you propose be done about it?

I’m a young, average-looking woman. It’s certainly possible that while I’ve been out in public all unawares, some guy has stared at me. Because he was attracted or because he liked my t-shirt or even because he was fantasizing about how I looked naked. The thing is, none of that is at all my problem until he makes it my problem. If he just sits there and thinks his thoughts inside his head, he’s not hurting me. His attitude may be wrong and in need of changing, but being a heterosexual male is not in and of itself a threat, and a heterosexual male can in fact be attracted to a woman without sexually objectifying her.

Also, re: the male rape thing. I think it can be worth talking about in dialogues about male rape of women, because in male/male rape the fact that it’s all about power is very stark. In male/female rape it’s much more obscured by our cultural narratives about sexuality (hence the lingering ‘rape is really just rough sex’ thing). I think that it can be useful to draw that parallel in order to illustrate that male/female rape is really just another way for a member of the dominant class to display his dominance.

Of course, that’s not usually the reason it gets brought up, which is kind of aggravating.

Comment #93: aebhel  on  07/08  at  05:37 PM

NoSpaceSpace:

Are we talking at cross purposes here?  You’re not talking about a quick appreciative glance, are you?

Comment #94: Magis  on  07/08  at  05:39 PM

NoSafeSpace, I should warn you that showing up out of nowhere to scold the blog as a whole has never ended well, at least not in my time here.  You will be mocked until you 1) stop trying to tell us what we are and aren’t allowed to say in a blog where we have spent far more time than you, or 2) leave. 

For the record, Amanda herself has stated that she prefers a rough-and-tumble atmosphere to a Safe Space, and we regulars know where the limits are.  Indeed, I’d say that she deliberately invited some of the jokes that are bothering you with this:

You’d think that men have enough interest in seeing women’s legs and being on the receiving end of women’s flirtations that they’d protest vigorously the use of violence to halt these behaviors.

If you’re looking for a Safe Space, I’d recommend Shakesville.

Comment #95: Seraph  on  07/08  at  05:41 PM

Great, more justification for sexually objectifying women against their will.  I’m sorry, was this a feminist blog?  I think I may have accidentally stumbled into 4chan.

Okay, so this is just trolling then.

Thanks for the tipoff.

Comment #96: Dan  on  07/08  at  05:42 PM

“MikeEss, if your objective was to intimidate and verbally “put me in my place” in this grand patriarchal hierarchy where women exist primarily to gratify men, you’ve succeeded.”

It was not, and still is not my intention.  I’ve meant no harm to anyone, and no disrespect toward anyone.

You said: “And reducing women to eye-fuck candy isn’t douchebaggery?  Seeing feminist men treat women like meat in this thread has left me feeling a little brain raped today.”

I assume this was in response to Sarcastro saying: “Bird-doggers of the world! Unite to fight the forces of douchebaggery that would deny us the passive spectacle of glorious gams and delectable décolletage.”

If you don’t like what Sarcastro said, call him/her on it.  But I missed any other examples where somebody was explicitly extolling the virtues of treating women like a bag of parts.  I know I didn’t.

But I am also completely baffled by the idea that if you are being looked at (and I mean a look, not a stare) then your bodily integrity has been violated, and how you think this can/should be stopped.  Explain?...

Comment #97: MikeEss  on  07/08  at  05:42 PM

Protip: when your troll namechecks 4chan, it’s a fucking troll.

Comment #98: Dan  on  07/08  at  05:43 PM

I find it jaw-droppingly astonishing that you would say that, in the context of this thread no less…

I’m not sure why it’s so astonishing. Allowing that women in all cultures certainly live in realistic fear of having their bodily autonomy sexually violated (i.e. raped), it comes down to a question of what a given culture considers that level of violation. For some cultures, a man merely looking at an uncovered woman indicates that he wishes to rape her. In ours, not.

There is no trust.

For individual women, I’d agree—and with good reason. For Western culture as a whole, I’d argue differently.

True, and also true that the responsible maturity attitude cuts both ways

Again, I don’t see virtual catcalls, 4chan-style insults, etc. If there were, I trust (there’s that word again) that the site owners would shut those users down, as is their right. Just as they trust that most male commenters find the idea of rape repulsive.

Comment #99: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  05:45 PM

...I just realized that Sarcastro also said “the passive spectacle”, implying no threats, etc…

Comment #100: MikeEss  on  07/08  at  05:53 PM

Alright!  I’m sorry I raised the specter of 4chan.  It was an uncalled-for moment of unchecked vitriolic hyperbole and I apologize.

But I am also completely baffled by the idea that if you are being looked at (and I mean a look, not a stare) then your bodily integrity has been violated, and how you think this can/should be stopped.  Explain?…

I think men will gradually learn to view women as complete human beings and there will be less temptation to view them as “bags of parts” when men start actively fighting their social conditioning.  Personally, I’ve learned that giving up porn has made it far easier to refrain from sexually objectifying people.  I think porn trains men to see an attractive woman and switch automatically into objectification mode.  In fact, I know it does.  I’ve experienced the phenomenon first-hand.  I’m also aware that this is a highly controversial subject and hardly expect society to jump on my band-wagon enthusiastically.

Comment #101: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  05:57 PM

There is nothing “passive” about using a person for your own gratification regardless of their wishes.

Comment #102: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  05:58 PM

Dan—not necessarily. 4chan has made enough of a pest of themselves in the online feminist community that namechecking them does not a troll guarantee.

That said, the obvious conflation of getting checked out to being street harassed or “brain raped” as she puts it is a big ol’ red troll flag.

Comment #103: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/08  at  06:00 PM

For individual women, I’d agree—and with good reason. For Western culture as a whole, I’d argue differently.

I sincerely don’t understand what you’re talking about here. How can Western culture and its individual members be separated in this way?

We started off from the proposition that rape exists, and is a serious problem; we seemed to all be in agreement - broadly speaking - that the male gaze is implicated in the problem, as evidenced by the fact that the article under examination in Amanda’s post tried to shift some blame onto women and how they dress/behave; there was no controversy around these facts, to the point where someone felt safe enough to make a slightly off-colour joke, resting on the premise that the hipster/liberal male gaze is of a higher and more progressive quality than the male gaze in general. Fine - I found it ever so slightly whiffy, but 99% of the people here let it pass. One person did not, and I think the reaction to her (possibly, over-) reaction was exaggerated.

I don’t actually know what 4chan is - cultural gulf there - but surely we don’t need to allow ourselves to decend to the level of catcalls before someone can step up and say “hey, we’re giving that poster a harder tim than necessary, and also let’s not make any undue assumptions about trust here, let’s chill”?

Comment #104: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  06:01 PM

That said, the obvious conflation of getting checked out to being street harassed or “brain raped” as she puts it is a big ol’ red troll flag.

Don’t forget “eye-fucked”.  I do believe someone’s playing a rousing game of “Straw Feminist”.

Comment #105: Seraph  on  07/08  at  06:02 PM

NoSafeSpaceForMe—so if I happen to notice a particularly hot guy and discretely imagine to myself what sort of a kisser he is, without staring, without making a lewd comment or gesture, without infringing on his personal space, and without asking his prior permission for fantasizing any range of sexual encounter with him, what should my punishment be? Should I just have my eyes gouged out, or would you prefer a full frontal lobotomy?

Comment #106: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/08  at  06:03 PM

“I think men will gradually learn to view women as complete human beings and there will be less temptation to view them as “bags of parts” when men start actively fighting their social conditioning.”

I equate this to the idea that we should not see “race”.  It’s a laudable goal, and may be achieved eventually, but edicts against “violating bodily integrity” probably aren’t helpful.

As our culture grows and evolves, it’s very likely that these problems will be reduced to the point where they are truly anomalies…

Comment #107: MikeEss  on  07/08  at  06:04 PM

“There is nothing “passive” about using a person for your own gratification regardless of their wishes.”

I guess I will have to respectfully disagree…

Comment #108: MikeEss  on  07/08  at  06:07 PM

so if I happen to notice a particularly hot guy and discretely imagine to myself what sort of a kisser he is, without staring, without making a lewd comment or gesture, without infringing on his personal space, and without asking his prior permission for fantasizing any range of sexual encounter with him, what should my punishment be? Should I just have my eyes gouged out, or would you prefer a full frontal lobotomy?

Well, that depends on what the telepathy allowing for detection of the thoughtcrime determines, doesn’t it, citizen?

Comment #109: KeithM  on  07/08  at  06:08 PM

I think porn trains men to see an attractive woman and switch automatically into objectification mode.

It might. I wouldn’t know; I’m not a man and didn’t get the social conditioning men do. But I do know I’m capable of appreciating a woman’s appearance, even finding her sexually attractive, without thinking of her as an object and being mindful that I don’t stare or make her uncomfortable, because she’s a person with feelings who doesn’t deserve that, and gets more than enough of that bullshit all day long. I think a lot of men think pretty much the same way I do, at least when they start to realize the kinds of objectification women experience every day. It’s unseemly to get defensive about it, I think, and while I would be mortified if some woman ever came up to me and called me a creepy jerk for clocking her, I’d just figure I needed to stop being a creepy jerk.

Comment #110: junk science  on  07/08  at  06:09 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, your romantic abstractions prompted by the sight of an attractive man aren’t really analogous to using a woman’s body as a visual buffet.

I’m having a hard time believing that few people here can differentiate between sexual objectification and admiration.

I equate this to the idea that we should not see “race”.  It’s a laudable goal, and may be achieved eventually, but edicts against “violating bodily integrity” probably aren’t helpful.

As our culture grows and evolves, it’s very likely that these problems will be reduced to the point where they are truly anomalies…

I don’t get it.  You seemed to be condoning an entirely different mindset a moment ago, and now triumphing over it is a laudable goal?

Comment #111: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  06:12 PM

I sincerely don’t understand what you’re talking about here. How can Western culture and its individual members be separated in this way?

I’ll give you an example. Current Western culture (by empirical observation) is comfortable with the idea of a woman rollerblading down the boardwalk dressed only in a bikini. However, an individual woman living in that culture, for her own reasons (which may include, but are not limited to, fear of rape) may not be comfortable with it rollerblading down the boardwalk dressed only in a bikini.

That’s because Western culture trusts that most men looking at a woman rollerblading down the boardwalk dressed only in a bikini aren’t taking it as an invitation to rape. An individual woman may not have the same trust as the larger culture.

Hope that clarifies a bit more, but if not glad to give it another go.

We started off from the proposition that rape exists, and is a serious problem; we seemed to all be in agreement - broadly speaking - that the male gaze is implicated in the problem, as evidenced by the fact that the article under examination in Amanda’s post tried to shift some blame onto women and how they dress/behave; there was no controversy around these facts, to the point where someone felt safe enough to make a slightly off-colour joke, resting on the premise that the hipster/liberal male gaze is of a higher and more progressive quality than the male gaze in general. Fine - I found it ever so slightly whiffy, but 99% of the people here let it pass. One person did not, and I think the reaction to her (possibly, over-) reaction was exaggerated.

Broadly speaking, I’d agree with all of this. The only controversy, as far as I can see, is one person turned what you found whiffy into an indictment of the site and its commenters—as people of both genders pointed that out.

I don’t actually know what 4chan is - cultural gulf there - but surely we don’t need to allow ourselves to decend to the level of catcalls before someone can step up and say “hey, we’re giving that poster a harder tim than necessary, and also let’s not make any undue assumptions about trust here, let’s chill”?

4chan is a completely unregulated site that attracts a lot of obnoxious adolescent boys (of all ages). But as NoSafeSpaceForMe herself conceded, that was a bit of hyperbole. I’d just disagree that it’s not part-and-parcel with the rest of her rhetoric.

Comment #112: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  06:14 PM

4chan is a completely unregulated site that attracts a lot of obnoxious adolescent boys

Tits or GTFO!

Comment #113: Zifnab  on  07/08  at  06:20 PM

“I don’t get it.  You seemed to be condoning an entirely different mindset a moment ago, and now triumphing over it is a laudable goal?”

I was trying to point out the difference between a cultural shift that decides something is wrong and eliminates it over time, versus a blanket condemnation of anyone looking at another person (I guess you’ve narrowed it down to only looking at women) for anything more than asking them to pass the salt…

Comment #114: MikeEss  on  07/08  at  06:23 PM

we know that they definitely had a written language

Yes, but in their stage of civilization, it was used for sacred purposes, as was this system at the time Tacitus was writing his book:

Another notable script is Elder Futhark, which is believed to have evolved out of one of the Old Italic alphabets. Elder Futhark gave rise to a variety of alphabets known collectively as the Runic alphabets. The Runic alphabets were used for Germanic languages from 100 AD to the late Middle Ages. Its usage was mostly restricted to engravings on stone and jewelry, although inscriptions have also been found on bone and wood. These alphabets have since been replaced with the Latin alphabet, except for decorative usage for which the runes remained in use until the 20th century

Any Roman citizen who didn’t have the wealth and leisure to read scribe-made books probably couldn’t do much more than the graffitti you see in Pompeii or magical charms written on parchment for some purpose as a Catholic might light a candle in Church while petitioning the Old Man, the Kid, and the Spook.

As for the Noble Savage:

Bingo!

Tacitus’ descriptions of the Germanic character are at times favorable in contrast to the opinions of the Romans of his day. <u>He holds the strict monogamy and chastity of Germanic marriage customs worthy of the highest praise, in contrast to what he saw as the vice and immorality rampant in Roman society of his day (ch. 18), and he admires their open hospitality, their simplicity, and their bravery in battle. All of these traits were highlighted perhaps because of their similarity to idealized Roman virtues.</u> These favorable portrayals made the work popular in Germany—especially among German nationalists and German Romantics—from the sixteenth century on. One should not, however, think that Tacitus’ portrayal of Germanic customs is entirely favorable; he notes a tendency in the Germanic people for what he saw as their habitual drunkenness, laziness, and barbarism, among other traits.

You have to look at them through Roman eyes, and yes, there was probably stuff on the low-down then as now, but a lot less than the Imperial Romans of his time, and certainly no Roman citizen would take it upon himself to take the law into his own hands for adultery, considering the laws on the subject at times:

In 50 BCE, while being praetor, Marcus Livius Drusus Claudianus presided over a Law Court which stated the cases that violated the Lex Scantinia. Thus, we can gather that the Lex Scantinia still commanded legitimate authority a century after it had been passed.

In 17 BCE, Lex Scantinia was supplemented by the Lex Iulia de Adulteriis Coercendis passed by emperor Augustus and banning adultery in general. A later 3rd century amendment of Lex Iulia included the Sententiae by Julius Paulus which re-emphasized the death penalty for same-sex behavior. The Sententiae were influential enough they were regarded as a genuine and in fact integral part of Lex Iulia maybe from their first appearance on, at the latest since the reign of emperor Justinian I who greatly praised their influence on Roman mores denouncing same-sex activities.[9]

The Lex Scantinia thus is not only the first Roman law documented by name regulating sexual behavior, but also began an unbroken history of Roman legal regulation of sexual behavior that further spanned over Lex Iulia/Sententiae until the legislations of Justinian I.

hair-cutting as a punishment for adulteresses could explain why Thor was fixin’ to kill Loki for shaving Sif’s head until Loki made with all the extravagant reparations.

That’s how women were treated when they were in the Nazi’s Concentration Camp system, and the French women who were seen as collaborators after the Liberation of Paris, etc.,  were shaved and driven naked in the streets for their infidelity to La Patrie.

I think it can be worth talking about in dialogues about male rape of women, because in male/male rape the fact that it’s all about power is very stark.

The only time I ever told someone about an attempted male/male rape that happened to me in high school was a girlfriend who laughed at the word “attempted”.

Comment #115: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/08  at  06:23 PM

Is that the current motto there? They change so quickly (and yet somehow stay the same).

Comment #116: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  06:23 PM

Re the polite look vs the leering: I first noticed the scope of this continuum of “noticing” in a foreign country, where by and large the men looked at me in a much more respectful manner—the looks were shorter, less obvious.  They were more the way women in North America have been socialized to look at men—coy rather than overt.  I could sense admiration or sexual curiosity but I never felt threatened the way I sometimes do at home (because of course some looks are designed to be incredibly threatening, and the looker knows it). Funny, because reported and unreported rape as far as I know is at the same statistical level as it is here in Canada—and of course this “coy” habit can’t be universally true, because assholes be everywhere.  But general public behaviour (at least in my anecdata) was so remarkably different that is really stood out to me.  And it was refreshing.

All this to say, I guess, is that I have a pretty sensitive trigger when it comes to being “noticed”, but even as far as I’m concerned, there definitely *are* ways to check out and even demonstrate interest in a woman on the street or bus without causing offense or threat or flushing the air with the smell of red meat.

Comment #117: Ranylt  on  07/08  at  06:25 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, your romantic abstractions prompted by the sight of an attractive man aren’t really analogous to using a woman’s body as a visual buffet.

But Mighty Ponygirl said <strike>fucking</strike> any range of sexual encounter, not so much romance.

I’m having a hard time believing that few people here can differentiate between sexual objectification and admiration.

Either you’re finding objectification where none was implied, or I really have no idea what you’re talking about. I know how to check out a man discreetly without making him uncomfortable, but I may entertain some fantasies later when I’m alone. I don’t see how there can be anything wrong with that.

Comment #118: asdf  on  07/08  at  06:26 PM

[I was trying to point out the difference between a cultural shift that decides something is wrong and eliminates it over time, versus a blanket condemnation of anyone looking at another person (I guess you’ve narrowed it down to only looking at women) for anything more than asking them to pass the salt…

But since you’re unwilling for society to shift towards less objectifcation/more respect for body autonomy, and since the majority of commenters here appear to be on your side, my utopia is never going to be realized, is it?

Comment #119: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  06:29 PM

Oops, redo required.

I was trying to point out the difference between a cultural shift that decides something is wrong and eliminates it over time, versus a blanket condemnation of anyone looking at another person (I guess you’ve narrowed it down to only looking at women) for anything more than asking them to pass the salt…

But since you’re unwilling for society to shift towards less objectifcation/more respect for body autonomy, and since the majority of commenters here appear to be on your side, my utopia is never going to be realized, is it?

Comment #120: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  06:31 PM

NoSafeSpace, I honestly don’t see how most people here are disagreeing with you. We don’t like staring or leering any more than you do, and we fully acknowledge that noticing and objectifying are entirely different things. I agree that a couple of comments you objected to were on the questionable side, and other people acknowledged that as well. I don’t see what the argument is now.

Comment #121: junk science  on  07/08  at  06:32 PM

Seeing as how my plans tonight include viewing last night’s ep of Torchwood I have a question; Is it ear-rape if Gwen’s Welsh accent totally turns me on? Hell, Ianto’s too. And don’t even get me started on that raging cutie with a Scottish brogue who played Kochanski in the early seasons of Red Dwarf.

Comment #122: Sarcastro  on  07/08  at  06:34 PM

But since you’re unwilling for society to shift towards less objectifcation/more respect for body autonomy

Again, that equation of a male glance (even an appraising, admiring one) with a violation of a woman’s body autonomy. A “utopia” that makes the equation does indeed exist ... it’s been in the news quite a bit, lately.

Comment #123: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  06:34 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, your romantic abstractions prompted by the sight of an attractive man aren’t really analogous to using a woman’s body as a visual buffet.

I’m having a hard time believing that few people here can differentiate between sexual objectification and admiration.

Okay, but say we’re not talking about kissing. Suppose I’m hanging out at a coffee shop, as is occasionally my wont, and I happen to see an attractive man pass by. If I discreetly enjoy a glance at his backside or his shoulders, is that objectification? By your definition, it would be—and maybe it is—but I don’t see how I’m doing any harm by it. If I’m not gawking or catcalling, who’s getting hurt? And what’s the difference between that and some guy discreetly enjoying the sight of my backside in a pair of well-fitting jeans?

To put it bluntly, I don’t see how I’m harmed by a man using my body as a ‘visual buffet’—by which I assume you mean looking and being sexually attracted without giving much thought one way or another to the fact that I’m a person—as long as they don’t hassle me about it in any way. Maybe I just have a higher tolerance for that kind of thing, but it just genuinely doesn’t bother me.

Comment #124: aebhel  on  07/08  at  06:34 PM

Current Western culture (by empirical observation) is comfortable with the idea of a woman rollerblading down the boardwalk dressed only in a bikini. However, an individual woman living in that culture, for her own reasons (which may include, but are not limited to, fear of rape) may not be comfortable with it rollerblading down the boardwalk dressed only in a bikini.

Ah. I see what you mean now.

I agree with you, if possible, even less than I did before.

The hypothetical woman skating along in nothing but a bikini (hypothetical to me, as she’d be a brave lass indeed to try that in our climate!) is for you a product of trust; for me, she is the visible embodiment of rape culture, the underdressed equivalent of the woman swathed from head to foot in black drapery. It’s no coincidence that the mental image conjured by your example is of a woman taking that particular form of exercise along the sea front in Loas Angeles - the world capital of objectification, the epicenter of Western culture’s porn and quazi-porn industries, a place where the availability of nubile female felsh is the main economic driver and where women - even ones of prodigious talent - are judged primarily on their looks.

Let’s not flatter ourselves that forcing women to exhibit themselves like candy is qualitatively different from swaddling them. Both approaches fetishize the female body as a locus for sexual transgression, they just do it in a different way. What you are taking for trust, I see as exploitation and oppression.

I’m not going to say any more about NoSafeSpaceForMe; she may or may not be atroll, I’m not sure I care to be honest. She’s opened up some interesting discussion here, though.

Comment #125: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  06:36 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, your romantic abstractions prompted by the sight of an attractive man aren’t really analogous to using a woman’s body as a visual buffet.

They weren’t “romantic.” They were sexual. Just because I’m a woman doesn’t mean that my imaginings of men are default romantic whereas their imaginings are default sexual.

I’m having a hard time believing that few people here can differentiate between sexual objectification and admiration.

...Because you yourself are muddying the waters. In my example, I sexually objectified the HELL out of the random hot guy. I didn’t imagine talking with him over coffee and getting to know his thoughts about great works of literature, I didn’t imagine what sort of family life he had, I imagined a sexual act with him. Without his consent. You declare that it’s a romantic abstraction, but when you say shit like

Thank you, Junk Science.  There is indeed a huge difference between noticing that a woman is attractive and letting your eyes roam over her body, fantasizing about her, looking at her in an overtly sexual way, consuming her with your eyes, eye-fucking her, et al.

...that’s not different from what I described. I consumed him with my eyes, and I imagined a sexual act with him.

Furthermore, I’m not sure if there’s a way to simply LOOK at someone in an overtly sexual way. A person can stare at another person and simply be thinking about whether or not they left the stove on, or thinking about what orgasm #3 would feel like with that person. A person can “look someone up and down” and think “Holy crap, that outfit looks GREAT on that person” or be thinking “Holy crap, I want to motorboat the hell out of those tits.” It’s not the looking that’s the harassment, it’s the muttering, the hand gestures, the invasion of personal space, the following, any any other number of actions. If a dude looked me up and down, it might make me a little uncomfortable (let’s face it, if I found him unattractive—if he were hot it would be unlikely that I would mind the attention) but unless he began to try to get my attention so that he could make sure that I SAW HIM SEEING ME, I would put it out of my mind. And that’s the difference.

Comment #126: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/08  at  06:36 PM

”...my utopia is never going to be realized, is it?”

Utopias, by definition, represent ideals, not actual, achievable realities…sorry…

Comment #127: MikeEss  on  07/08  at  06:36 PM

But what I’m proposing is that raunch culture, porn culture, rape culture, whatever you want to call it, and at the very end of the spectrum, rape, all of it has its genesis in the mentality that it’s permissible to sexually objectify people without their consent.  No, I don’t think turning men into a “bag of parts” is acceptable, either.  I think it’s natural to notice attractiveness, socially ingrained to objectify. 

This is a frighteningly radical POV, I know.  I would’ve snarked at it, myself, a couple of years ago.

Comment #128: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  06:42 PM

Being vague doesn’t make you radical.

Comment #129: asdf  on  07/08  at  06:47 PM

there was no controversy around these facts, to the point where someone felt safe enough to make a slightly off-colour joke, resting on the premise that the hipster/liberal male gaze is of a higher and more progressive quality than the male gaze in general. Fine - I found it ever so slightly whiffy, but 99% of the people here let it pass.

Well, I for one presumed that Sarcastro was being more than a little ironic.  His handle is kind of a tip off, you know?

Comment #130: keshmeshi  on  07/08  at  06:48 PM

NoSafeSpace:

What Mighty Ponygirl said is exactly what guys do. Issues of privilege aside, there is no difference.

Yes, men should be under an obligation to be respectful and treat women as equals. (Good Lord, I feel like I’m being a condescending ass even having to say that.) And yes, leering is bad, because it’s intimidating and violates others’ personal space. But come on—you sound like a caricature of a women’s studies major. How the hell are people supposed to meet and form relationships without some kind of sexual thought and, yes, objectification? The idea is not to eliminate it completely, but to learn how to compartmentalize such thoughts when they’re not appropriate.

Sexual attraction, by its very nature, is objectifying. It is a thought process that takes a person and puts them in the category of “fuckable” or “non-fuckable”. It is only a problem when it’s used as a value judgement of a person’s personality or worth; that, in fact, is a vast part of what feminism is all about. Sarah Palin is rather more attractive than Hillary Clinton, yet even Hillary-haters have to admit that Palin had nowhere near the qualifications for the Presidency than Clinton (or, for that matter, at least 3/4 of the ‘08 presidential field) did. (And when you get right down to it, Clinton is Secretary of State and Palin is a joke.)

Comment #131: BrianX  on  07/08  at  06:50 PM

How am I being vague?

Comment #132: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  06:51 PM

The hypothetical woman skating along in nothing but a bikini (hypothetical to me, as she’d be a brave lass indeed to try that in our climate!) is for you a product of trust; for me, she is the visible embodiment of rape culture, the underdressed equivalent of the woman swathed from head to foot in black drapery.

One culture (or, more specifically, a subset thereof) demands that all women wear the burqa in public. One culture (or, more specifically, a subset thereof) makes wearing a bikini a personal option. That’s my only point in this regard.

It’s no coincidence that the mental image conjured by your example is of a woman taking that particular form of exercise along the sea front in Loas Angeles

Well, honestly I’m headed out there shortly, and will be staying pretty close to Venice Beach, so that particular image came to mind. I’ll agree that it’s not a typical choice of attire, even in L.A. But it is a choice that our culture allows.

Comment #133: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  06:53 PM

Vague concerning what constitutes objectification, and if Mighty Ponygirl’s and aebhel’s and my examples do constitute objectification, how that can be harmful.

Comment #134: asdf  on  07/08  at  06:54 PM

all of it has its genesis in the mentality that it’s permissible to sexually objectify people without their consent.

Since we’re now using “objectify” to mean “have sexual fantasies about,” I would much, much rather have some random dude go ahead and imagine what I look like naked than ask my permission before he does it. I couldn’t care less what he thinks either way, and it honestly doesn’t bother me if someone “objectifies” me in this sense of the word without my knowing about it. In fact, I would very much prefer not to know about it. I’m also entirely unoffended at the thought that someone, somewhere, might be imagining sex with me, and I would think most people would be similarly unmoved. Real objectification is intended to make you uncomfortable and feel less than human, as the random unobtrusive sexual fantasies of strangers aren’t.

Comment #135: junk science  on  07/08  at  06:56 PM

I think it’s natural to notice attractiveness, socially ingrained to objectify.

Okay, fine. But you still haven’t clarified where exactly you think that distinction is. Because what constitutes ‘attractive’ is largely a social construct, and you seem to be defining ‘objectification’ as ‘any attraction that is not purely aesthetic’. Which is not a POV I can really get behind.

Also, rape is about men acting out their social privilege and proving themselves on the canvass of women’s bodies. The attractiveness of the body in question is not generally at issue.

Comment #136: aebhel  on  07/08  at  06:57 PM

Ok, play with this one:
Sex and the City episode.  Samantha (Kim Cattrell) and Carrie are walking down the street.  Samantha sees a priest in full Franciscan robes greeting parishoners.  Priest never makes eye contact with her and as far as we can tell is unaware of her.  Samantha sharply inhales and makes admiring sexual comment to Carrie about the priest. 

Later, the 4 women meet and Samatha notes that she has spent the afternoon masturbating to the image of the priest.

1. What does it say about sexy dress?
2. Is Sam guilty of objectification?

3. How does the switch of genders make this differnet form what you’ve been talking about above, if itdoes?

Comment #137: phylosopher  on  07/08  at  07:03 PM

In other words, objectification isn’t “I want to fuck you with no thought of whether I would appreciate your personality as well as your looks.” It’s “I want to fuck you, and I don’t care what you think about that, and if it makes you feel uncomfortable, so much the better.” But a silent ogler does care what you think, specifically because they’re not calling your attention to their ogling. Your consent matters; it hasn’t been provided, so you don’t have to be involved in the ogling experience.

Comment #138: junk science  on  07/08  at  07:07 PM

Re the polite look vs the leering: I first noticed the scope of this continuum of “noticing” in a foreign country, where by and large the men looked at me in a much more respectful manner—the looks were shorter, less obvious.  They were more the way women in North America have been socialized to look at men—coy rather than overt.

More anecdote: I had a completely freaky experience regarding these kinds of cultural differences that put the whole thing into stark perspective for me and made me realise just how openly and aggressively men in the west do use their gaze.

I was lucky enough to accompany my parnet to a conference in Japan, where I was invited to the conference banquet along with him. I was the only partner of either sex there, and apart from me there were only 2 female delegates (robotics conference, what can you do), so my presence quite naturally attracted a bit of attention.

The bit that freaked me out was when we antered the large room where the dinner was being held. Whether by design or not, it so happened that one side of the room was full of the Japanese delagates, whereas the other side was where all the Westerners sat. As we walked down the whole length of this arrangement t the top of the room, I could feel every male eye on my right (the non-Japanese side) boring into me. Their eyes followed me in my progress as if I was either some sort of alien or an exotic dish being displayed before their rapt attention. It felt awful - nobody was catcallin or leering, but the concentrated fascination made me feel about as exposed as I have ever felt in my life. Seriously, stepping out in my first bikini before my 14-year-old classmates would have been less intimidating.

The curious thing was that from the other side of the room, the Japanese side, to which I had the added curiosity value of being a foreigner, there was not a peek. Not a glimmer, not a turn of the head. Nothing.

Now, I can’t believe that the Japanese are all somehow gender and colour blind, just oblivious, or that all Japanese roboticists are somehow gay en masse. The evidence suggests that they’re not entirely unaware of sex and feminine charms in general, either.

So there has to be a way in which a culture gets away from staring completely (not staring is in general a Japanese thing, in all circumstances, not just in a sexual context) without turning into sexless mush. To suggest that our aggressive Western way of checking each other out openly is “natural” is just silly. We could certainly work towards something more like the Japanese ethic in looking (though not in tentacle porn, please - emulation should only go so far!) without sacrificing attraction and aesthetic pleasure entirely.

Comment #139: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  07:12 PM

Oooh, Oooh

*waves hand*

1. What does it say about sexy dress?
2. Is Sam guilty of objectification?

1.  Does he have one of those hats with the little puff ball thingy on top?  (Actually, some people like uniforms, french maid’s outfits, etc.  I don’t get it but….)

2.  No.  Fetishization.

Sorry.

Comment #140: Magis  on  07/08  at  07:14 PM

phylosopher, your example would be interesting were it not for the fact that Samantha is not a real woman, but a sexualised avatar of female rapaciousness. Her very narrative function is to provide a counterpoint to the men in the series mistreating her friends, mixing up the messages and making it all OK because “women do that sort of thing too”.

She is the equivalent of the rightwing columnist slamming feminists wihle hiding behind her gender, because “women can’t be sexist against other women”.

In that respect she has no place in this discussion, unless we were disecting raunch culture and the pressure on women to conform to stereotypes of insatiable sexual availability.

Comment #141: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  07:22 PM

So there has to be a way in which a culture gets away from staring completely (not staring is in general a Japanese thing, in all circumstances, not just in a sexual context) without turning into sexless mush. To suggest that our aggressive Western way of checking each other out openly is “natural” is just silly. We could certainly work towards something more like the Japanese ethic in looking (though not in tentacle porn, please - emulation should only go so far!) without sacrificing attraction and aesthetic pleasure entirely.

TheLady on 07/08 at 06:12 PM

OK, definitely some of it was culture, but my other thought is that seeing it only as cultural dismisses a significant part of your narrative.  The Japanese men were going home to their significant others or wives or at least knew where to go for a hookup.

The Westerners were all thier solo, so…..

Comment #142: phylosopher  on  07/08  at  07:24 PM

I don’t know.  I’m sorry but I think we are aggressively sexual in our society, we are hyper-sexual, and if we can’t look at someone and get a hormonal rush, yet restrain ourselves from visually feasting on their body, well, that’s a just sad testament to the condition of society today.  We do live in a “raunch culture”, a “porn culture”, and the subtler, more nuanced sexual behaviors play into that on some level.  Everything looks innocuous on the surface.  If I’m being vague, I don’t mean to be.

As we walked down the whole length of this arrangement t the top of the room, I could feel every male eye on my right (the non-Japanese side) boring into me. Their eyes followed me in my progress as if I was either some sort of alien or an exotic dish being displayed before their rapt attention. It felt awful - nobody was catcallin or leering, but the concentrated fascination made me feel about as exposed as I have ever felt in my life. Seriously, stepping out in my first bikini before my 14-year-old classmates would have been less intimidating.

The curious thing was that from the other side of the room, the Japanese side, to which I had the added curiosity value of being a foreigner, there was not a peek. Not a glimmer, not a turn of the head. Nothing.

The top scenario is ostensibly sexual objectification.  The second is a humane, respectful response to visually encountering an attractive person.  That’s about all I can say.  TheLady is spot on in all of her comments.

Comment #143: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  07:26 PM

and making it all OK because “women do that sort of thing too”.

I believe you misread the role of the Samantha persona.  Samantha is probably the most discussed of the roles because her “rapaciousness” teases out the underlying issues, allowing the viewer/discussant to focus on the act, separated from the gender of the actor. 

But nice try in not dealing with the question.

Comment #144: phylosopher  on  07/08  at  07:30 PM

You believe wrong, and I think you’ll find that constructively dismissing something after having considered it is a valid definition of “dealing”.

But nice try on being a supercilious jerk.

Comment #145: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  07:36 PM

Since we’re now using “objectify” to mean “have sexual fantasies about,”

Not exactly, junk science. Certainly sexual fantasies are about objectification, but that’s like equating African slavery to racism. Yes, the one was caused in large part by the other, but they aren’t the same thing. On a related note: that song from “Avenue Q”, “Everyone’s A Little Bit Racist”? This is likely true. The difference is that people who know it’s wrong are aware of it and do their damnedest not to let it color their social interactions.

Comment #146: BrianX  on  07/08  at  07:42 PM

One culture (or, more specifically, a subset thereof) demands that all women wear the burqa in public. One culture (or, more specifically, a subset thereof) makes wearing a bikini a personal option. That’s my only point in this regard.

You are not comparing like for like.

God knows I’m an unlikely defender of Muslim attitudes to female veiling, but it does not good to pretend that the full niqab or the burqa are the only options available in “that” culture. No more in fact than assuming that bikinis are all that’s available to American women. So “personal option” in this context is something that applies equally, or almost equally, in both cases.

There are gradations here, and tey are expressed variously thorugh external pressures as well as the sort of internalised sexism that makes women believe that wearing push up bras/hijabs or mini skirts/abayas is their “choice”.

Yes, in most cases the choices are not overtly coerced (no culture survives long term without the willing participation of even those most oppressed by it) - but no more can they be detached from the underlying attitudes towards female sexuality and norms of attractiveness, which are, in these two examples, ironicaly similar.

Comment #147: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  07:44 PM

Your comments are… interesting, coming from someone who objectifies herself as THE lady.  Ahh for a mirror to present to madame.

Comment #148: phylosopher  on  07/08  at  07:47 PM

You comments are pretty dull for someone who claims to be a phylosopher, but then you meet all sorts of people on the internet, don’t you?

Comment #149: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  07:51 PM

Everyone’s A Little Bit Of A Sexual Objectifier?  It’s true.  You have to consciously evaluate the way you perceive others, the activities you rourtinely engage in, the nature of your interactions with others, before you can fully appreciate how automatically and wholly we slip into our culturally ingrained roles.  Women are more likely to tolerate objectification because we’ve been taught that men are visual, men are sex maniacs, they can’t help it, and so on.  Men are more likely to objectify women because they’ve been taught that using women’s bodies for personal sexual gratification is their birthright.

Comment #150: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  07:53 PM

No, we really don’t “meet.”  But continue your virtual fantasy if you like.  Now shall I get offended because you are objectifying me, or, should I consider and dismiss it becuase you are responding no tot me, but to an object of my creation sent out into cyber ether?  The latter seems most appealing.

Comment #151: phylosopher  on  07/08  at  07:56 PM

The curious thing was that from the other side of the room, the Japanese side, to which I had the added curiosity value of being a foreigner, there was not a peek. Not a glimmer, not a turn of the head. Nothing.

They perhaps realized the inappropriate conduct of the others who were eyeballing you, and the cultural rule in that case is to pretend that nothing is happening. I’d bet garbage to doornails that if what you described hadn’t happened, they would perhaps be eyeballing you a little bit. 

To say that Japanese groups dynamics are different that American group dynamics is perhaps an understatement, YMMV.

Comment #152: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/08  at  08:05 PM

Personally, I’ve learned that giving up porn has made it far easier to refrain from sexually objectifying people. 

I’m sure cutting your tongue out also helped your sense of victimization.

Comment #153: Ms Kate  on  07/08  at  08:10 PM

I don’t tolerate objectification because I’ve been socialized to believe that it’s a male birthright. I tolerate what goes on inside other peoples’ heads as long as I don’t personally have to deal with it. Once they make it my problem, I start to have an issue with it.

I also don’t get bothered by the ‘aggressive’ gazes, but that’s mostly because I’m an oblivious lunkhead and someone has to be pretty gratuitously obnoxious before I even notice, let alone get offended.

Comment #154: aebhel  on  07/08  at  08:11 PM

WTH?

Comment #155: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  08:12 PM

That was addressed to Ms. Kate.

Comment #156: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  08:13 PM

No, we really don’t “meet.” But continue your virtual fantasy if you like.  Now shall I get offended because you are objectifying me, or, should I consider and dismiss it becuase you are responding no tot me, but to an object of my creation sent out into cyber ether?  The latter seems most appealing.

Third option: you can read up the thread a bit and revisit the part where you superimposed you sad little rape fantasy onto me, turning what was an interesting anecdote into a manifesto of using women in general - and me in particular - as so much walking wanking material.

I was going to let that one go, because a saddo is a saddo and sometimes it’s best to make allowances; but as you seem incapable of leaving well enough alone and making a puerile spectacle of yourself just once in a single discussion, I think it best to do you a solid by pointing out that there are many perfectly good porn sites out there in the big wide intrawebs, with many a dehumanised object for your semicoherent slavering. And while I find it ethically problematic to actually recommend porn to anyone, you may consider it to be a benefit that pay-for-rape victims are less likely to be motivated to detail the pathetic shortcomings of what you try and pass off as reasoning.

I find the very act of engaging in this stilted dialogue with you distasteful. You are free to form your own opinion about whether this is because I am a) a humourless feminazi, b) a hairy legged man hating lesbian, or c) an overemotional hysteric with a cat addiction. As it is now past midnight on this Sceptred Isle, and as the feeling of visceral revultion your snide snipings evoke in me does not tempt me to linger, I leave you to ponder these delicious possibilities in my absence.

Comment #157: MarinaS  on  07/08  at  08:13 PM

Right, aebhel, because you were raised in a cultural vacuum and prevailing societal mores and attitudes have had absolutely no influence on your thoughts and perceptions whatsoever.

Comment #158: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  08:15 PM

I don’t know.  I’m sorry but I think we are aggressively sexual in our society, we are hyper-sexual, and if we can’t look at someone and get a hormonal rush, yet restrain ourselves from visually feasting on their body, well, that’s a just sad testament to the condition of society today.

Visually feasting. What does that even mean? If I subtly check out a man, without him noticing my attention, am I just having a nibble? If I reimagine the sight later that night in private, am I harming him in some way? Harming men in general?

In my utopia, everyone has all the consensual sex they could ever want, and we take no shame in fantasizing about it between sessions. Is this hypersexual, and if so, why is that bad?

Comment #159: asdf  on  07/08  at  08:15 PM

Equating having sexual thoughts about a person—or, rather, what is actually happening here, equating asserting one’s right to having sexual thoughts about a person—with the physical act of rape is completely indefensible and disgusting.  You have no right to talk that way.  You demean and dishonor the experience and suffering of anybody who’s ever actually been a victim of rape.

Comment #160: liminalist  on  07/08  at  08:26 PM

NoSafeSpace:

My point is that it’s not a black-and-white deal, not the way you’re making it sound. Power games, fear of sex, paranoia about interactions, none of this is good or healthy, although the latter two are at least understandable as reactions to the first. The fact is that an awful lot of people—not just second-wave feminists but male chauvinist pigs, evo-psykers, and religious fundamentalists—live in a world where sexuality is not just a fact of life but an active enemy to their preferred form of interaction. Out of all of those people, the only ones I will give a pass to are those who have suffered as a result of rape or harrassment; the rest (particularly the religious fundamentalists, who don’t even make a pretense of studying the data) have no excuse not to take a measured approach to the issue and deal with everything that’s on the table. That’s what the sex-positive aspects of third-wave feminism are about—understanding that the gigantic turgid 800-lb horny gorilla in the room isn’t going away and needs to be tamed rather than expelled.

Sex is good, and it’s what we do. The key is to strive to remove it as a factor of things that make people unequal—there will be looking and fantasizing, but it can and should be done in a respectful manner that won’t intimidate or encroach on the object of the fantasy. (At the same time, allowances probably should be made for obvious ineptitude, but once the inept person is corrected, it’s their (his?) responsibility to correct their behavior.)

Comment #161: BrianX  on  07/08  at  08:37 PM

Visually feasting. What does that even mean? If I subtly check out a man, without him noticing my attention, am I just having a nibble? If I reimagine the sight later that night in private, am I harming him in some way? Harming men in general?

When this comes up where a commenter clearly has a serious issue about something, I note that, consider the issue, and move on. The fact that NoSafeSpaceForMe is having trouble sleeping because of all the people out there on the streets brazenly being physically attracted to other people they see is not my personal problem.

One may have personal moral issues regarding one’s personal thoughts about sex, and constantly viewing your friends and coworkers sexually will interfere with your personal and workplace relationships. However, those, too, fall into the category of someone’s personal problems with respect to their ability to comport themselves with correct personal and professional behavior and is covered in other categories and discussions about harassment.

Comment #162: Tyro  on  07/08  at  08:38 PM

Nice Garp reference, Ms Kate…

Comment #163: MikeEss  on  07/08  at  08:40 PM

liminalist:

In some sense it’s a matter of degree. No, rudely staring down a woman’s cleavage in the middle of a conversation is not rape, not by a long shot, but they are both invasions of someone’s space. The fact that one is a relatively minor discomfort (depending, of course, on the stare-ee’s comfort level) and one is a physical invasion of one’s body that is often worse than murder doesn’t change that.

Comment #164: BrianX  on  07/08  at  08:40 PM

Let’s all agree that nobody should ever look at anyone else, that’s where rape comes from.

Troll troll troll troll troll.

Comment #165: Dan  on  07/08  at  08:41 PM

I don’t mean looking, I mean LEERING! By which I mean looking.

troll troll troll

Comment #166: Dan  on  07/08  at  08:41 PM

Certainly sexual fantasies are about objectification, but that’s like equating African slavery to racism. Yes, the one was caused in large part by the other, but they aren’t the same thing.

I don’t think they are the same thing, like I said a couple of posts later.

Comment #167: junk science  on  07/08  at  08:56 PM

Dan:

Horseshit. There’s a difference between looking and leering. If you can’t work it out, start wearing sunglasses.

Comment #168: BrianX  on  07/08  at  08:57 PM

You are not comparing like for like.

I’m making the cultural comparison for a very specific reason in regard to this discussion.

Cultures that require that a woman cover up (and this isn’t limited to Muslim cultures) do so ostensibly to protect women—specifically, to protect them from the Male Gaze of strange men (the Male Gaze of the chattel-holder is usually another matter). Why? Well, supposedly men who look upon a woman, admiringly or otherwise, are probably considering raping her (evo-psych 101, right?). Since it’s not really practical to keep people from looking at one another, or reading their minds, those cultures often choose mandatory veiling of one sort or another to “protect” these women.

The only real difference I see between those cultures and what NoSafeSpaceForMe is saying is that she wants us all to conform to the more unrealistic option of not looking. Both attitudes, however, are predicated on the same category error: that all men are potential rapists, and mere visual contact can set off their uncontrolled animal urges. Foolishness like the poorly written Telegraph article plays right into “supporting” that view.

it does not good to pretend that the full niqab or the burqa are the only options available in “that” culture.

In certain countries where that culture (basically tribal Middle Eastern cultures which have codified the practise in religious and/or state law), it is indeed the only option in public. Iran and KSA come to mind. Those were the feminist “utopias” I was describing.

No more in fact than assuming that bikinis are all that’s available to American women.

Which, of course, is absurd. However, bikinis are an option in most places where Western culture is operational. Burqas and the like are also an option, except where they interfere with civil law. If someone’s uncomfortable with the Male Gaze, she can dress to avert it.  If someone enjoys the Male Gaze, she can dress to attract it. Either way, males are gonna gaze, but it’s the woman’s choice as to how she tries to handle it.

Now as much as I object to cultures that require women take the veil, I’m not going to insist they change—they’ll do that (or won’t) without my or America’s active help. I expect the same of those who object to Western culture and try to force religious law into it.

Similarly, highly regulated, politically correct blogs like Shakesville are not to my taste, but I don’t insist they change to suit my requirements for a safe space. And yet, certain people visiting this blog… well, you get the idea, so I’ll leave it there until the next thread where someone else siezes upon a comment (or even a monicker that incorporates the very un-PC term “lady”) and attempts to prove she’s more feminist than thou.

Comment #169: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  09:02 PM

Brian, being anti-sexual objectification is not the same thing as being anti-sex, but 3rd wavers have done an ingenious job of conflating the two and making 2nd wave feminism out to be the frigid prude brigade. 

I like how my comments continue to be wildly exaggerated and intentionally misconstrued.  I’d really like to know why Ms. Kate thinks my newfound ability to treat people more like people and less like meat means I’m being a victim.  My curiosity has been piqued.

Comment #170: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  09:07 PM

Right, aebhel, because you were raised in a cultural vacuum and prevailing societal mores and attitudes have had absolutely no influence on your thoughts and perceptions whatsoever.

Of course prevailing social mores influence how I think and act. All I said is that I’m rarely offended by staring because most of the time I don’t fucking notice it. Not because I’m putting up with it (I wouldn’t). Not because I think men have the right to objectify me (I don’t). Because I’m not usually paying enough attention to the people around me to notice whether or not they’re staring at my ass. Which means for someone to be obnoxious enough to offend me, they have to cross some pretty serious lines that most people are not willing to cross in a public setting.

That has nothing to do with being raised in a cultural vacuum, but it would be nice if you’d stop assuming that your cultural experiences = everybody else’s.

And just FYI, it is in fact possible to disagree with a person without being a snide, condescending asshole. You should try it sometime.

Comment #171: aebhel  on  07/08  at  09:07 PM

Burqas and the like are also an option, except where they interfere with civil law. If someone’s uncomfortable with the Male Gaze, she can dress to avert it.  If someone enjoys the Male Gaze, she can dress to attract it. Either way, males are gonna gaze, but it’s the woman’s choice as to how she tries to handle it.

That’s akin to saying men are going to rape no matter what you do: you can dress to avoid it, you can dress to provoke it, but either way men are men and they’re just gonna rape.

Comment #172: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  09:11 PM

Uh, no. His whole point is that being looked at by men is not the same as being raped, and that one does not necessarily lead to the other.

Comment #173: aebhel  on  07/08  at  09:13 PM

Lymis and Piator:

I’m not moving from my statement, not one inch.  I don’t care if it’s fratboy group mentality or if different pervs have different triggers.  Either you will have sex with a woman without her consent or you won’t–ever–period.  I won’t, not ever.  Most men won’t, not ever.  Sorry, yes it is that simple.  Yes, it is that black and white.  Maybe I’m just an old curmudgeon but, goddamit, somethings are black and white.

Mmm - Magis, you need to find the Zimbardo book and read it.  It doesn’t address rape per se, but its comments are very relevant.

Comment #174: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/08  at  09:14 PM

The “male gaze” is an invasive sexual behavior, rape is an invasive sexual behavior.  Both are an exercise of male privilege and Othering women.  It’s insane to try to separate the two because they are merely two points on the same spectrum.

Comment #175: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  09:15 PM

That’s akin to saying men are going to rape no matter what you do: you can dress to avoid it, you can dress to provoke it, but either way men are men and they’re just gonna rape.

No, it’s saying that men are going to look no matter what you do. In Western Enlightenment culture, there’s quite a wide gulf between looking and raping. If you want to buy into the other cultural view I mentioned (not to mention the message sent by that shoddy Telegraph article), that’s your prerogative.

I suspect your real point, however, was to show us all that second-wave feminists are the real feminists, and third-wavers (like the owners of this blog) promote rape culture. Now you can go back to Shakesville with a warm, smug glow in your heart.

Comment #176: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  09:18 PM

No, it’s saying that you refuse to see the parallel because it doesn’t accomodate your patriarchal entitlement to use women’s bodies as sex objects.

Comment #177: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  09:21 PM

Sweet Jeebus NoSafeSpaceForMe, will you just go be offended elsewhere?  You’ve ostensibly flounced off at least once, are refusing to listen to other commenters, and are making no gorram sense while you’re at it.  Try shutting up and listening for a little bit.  I don’t know where the fuck you came from, but I’ve never heard a word from your ass before, and you could CERTAINLY use a lesson in instructive listening.

Comment #178: Mimi  on  07/08  at  09:22 PM

The “male gaze” is an invasive sexual behavior, rape is an invasive sexual behavior.

The “Male Gaze” is technically a cumulative societal phenomenon, and different women react to it and cope with it in different ways. Rape is a situational and personal phenomenon, and the vast majority of women react to it negatively.

Furthermore, two distinct points on a spectrum != equivalents—that’s why it’s called a spectrum. Do you really believe that a man forcing his penis into a woman’s vagina is just as bad as a man spending a few seconds looking over a woman admiringly? It seems you do, just as it seems you’re unwilling to address my points in good faith.

Comment #179: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  09:31 PM

Horseshit. There’s a difference between looking and leering. If you can’t work it out, start wearing sunglasses.

It’s a good thing you were here to explain this to me as I was clearly speaking sincerely and not actually characterizing the statements of another commenter here on this blog who I feel has been posting in a less than sincere manner.

I mean, dang.

Comment #180: Dan  on  07/08  at  09:32 PM

Gracchus, do you not know what a spectrum is?  “The term spectrum is applied to any class of similar entities or properties strictly arrayed in order of increasing or decreasing magnitude.”  That is from Answers.com.

Comment #181: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  09:35 PM

Brian, being anti-sexual objectification is not the same thing as being anti-sex, but 3rd wavers have done an ingenious job of conflating the two and making 2nd wave feminism out to be the frigid prude brigade.

Second-wave feminism was a product of its time. If it isn’t prudish by intent, that’s the inevitable result—third-wave feminism exists precisely because younger women who inherited the legacy of feminism felt that the second wave was a bit infantilizing when it came to sex. There are probably a few things the third-wavers get wrong too—no doubt there will be a fourth wave to fix those mistakes.

I like how my comments continue to be wildly exaggerated and intentionally misconstrued.

Then what, exactly, are you saying? You seem to be dealing in false binaries.

The “male gaze” is an invasive sexual behavior, rape is an invasive sexual behavior.  Both are an exercise of male privilege and Othering women.  It’s insane to try to separate the two because they are merely two points on the same spectrum.

Radio waves, orange, and x-rays are all on the same spectrum as well, in a very literal sense. They’re all electromagnetic radiation, but there are distinct qualitative differences created by their location on a spectrum. Yes, a single incidence of leering is invasive. But it’s less invasive (and less damaging) than constant leering, and both are far less invasive than something involving physical contact like groping or rape. None of the above are appropriate behavior, but it’s like equating stealing a handful of sugar packets from a coffee shop and robbing a bank.

Comment #182: BrianX  on  07/08  at  09:38 PM

Dan:

In one sense you have a point. An intelligent response to intentionally lame trolling is a waste of effort.

Comment #183: BrianX  on  07/08  at  09:40 PM

Gracchus, do you not know what a spectrum is?  “The term spectrum is applied to any class of similar entities or properties strictly arrayed in order of increasing or decreasing magnitude.” That is from Answers.com.

Indeed I do. I also know that “similar” != “equivalent”, just as surely as I know that the term “spectrum,” when applied to a disease or type of societal ill, implies degrees of severity, one end generally verging on harmless.

With you, apparently, a woman being raped = a man looking at a woman. Perhaps red and violet (both colours, y’know) are the same thing to you as well.

Comment #184: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  09:41 PM

Ok, so if I extrapolate using your logic, Gracchus, if a guy takes nude pictures of me while I’m sleeping, no physical contact has occurred and, therefore, his actions do not personally affect me and I should not be offended.  And I am a silly, hysterical, sex-hating feminist if I am offended.

Comment #185: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  09:43 PM

Second-wave feminism was a product of its time. If it isn’t prudish by intent, that’s the inevitable result

Which is why second-wavers often find themselves relying on the same evo-psych justifications and prescribing the same remedies as religious fantasists and MRAs.

Comment #186: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  09:44 PM

Gracchus:

I might interject here to point out that the dividing line between ionizing and nonionizing radiation is somewhere in the upper blue-indigo region. So red and violet are visible colors, but otherwise have less in common than you’d think, physically…

Comment #187: BrianX  on  07/08  at  09:45 PM

NoSafeSpace:

If you’re asleep on a nude beach where no “no pictures” signs are posted and no expectation of privacy is to be had, it’s creepy but borderline. But something tells me we’re talking about you being asleep in a space you assume to be private (e.g. your own bedroom), which means you’re being completely disingenuous there.

Comment #188: BrianX  on  07/08  at  09:48 PM

MikeEss, if your objective was to intimidate and verbally “put me in my place” in this grand patriarchal hierarchy where women exist primarily to gratify men, you’ve succeeded.

Okay, I haven’t had a chance to read back through everything what with doing actual work at work today and all, but, seriously, you’re claiming that MikeEss is your example of a horrible male oppressor?  Seriously?  Either you’re new around here or you have your oppression meter set way, WAY too high if Mike is setting it off.  Of all the guys who say stupid sexist shit around here, I’d put Mike in the bottom 10 percent of offenders.  Probably even 5 percent.

Time to move to that feminist separatist commune if you can’t even handle MikeEss.  Sheesh.

Comment #189: Mnemosyne  on  07/08  at  09:49 PM

I guess so, Mnemosyne, because MikeEss believes I should take his Male Gaze shit and like it, and if I don’t, tough noogies.

Brian, if you honestly don’t believe the beach scenario is an egregious invasion of privacy, and another point on the rape spectrum, whoa…  If this is really how the average red-blooded male thinks, I’m freaking out now.

Comment #190: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  09:52 PM

Ok, so if I extrapolate using your logic, Gracchus, if a guy takes nude pictures of me while I’m sleeping, no physical contact has occurred and, therefore, his actions do not personally affect me and I should not be offended.

I’d place it on the spectrum, neither equivalent to physical rape nor equivalent to someone looking you over, but closer to the former than the latter. It’s a creepy violation by standards of our culture because there’s a clear intent to coerce (i.e. capturing a material and permanent image without consent), on par with those up-skirt photographers. Looking at a clothed passerby, even sexually, does not involve an intent to coerce.

Once again, all points on a spectrum are not equivalent. That’s about as logical as it gets.

Comment #191: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  09:53 PM

I might interject here to point out that the dividing line between ionizing and nonionizing radiation is somewhere in the upper blue-indigo region. So red and violet are visible colors, but otherwise have less in common than you’d think, physically…

Hey, I’m trying to keep it Telegraph-simple here.

Comment #192: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  09:54 PM

There is no “intent to coerce” in photographing unwitting subjects.  It’s intent to visually appropriate their bodies for the sexual gratification of the photographer.  The Male Gaze is intent to visually appropriate a woman’s body, in a transient sense, for the sexual gratification of the Gazer.

Comment #193: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  09:59 PM

I think men will gradually learn to view women as complete human beings and there will be less temptation to view them as “bags of parts” when men start actively fighting their social conditioning.

I think you’re engaging in a false dichotomy.  All people, male and female, are embodied.  The vast majority of people find (some) human bodies sexually attractive.  It is perfectly possible to acknowledge someone as a person *and* admire their body sexually - and for people you don’t know, the latter is the *only* way you relate to them.  Pretty/handsome strangers get noticed and looked at; that’s practically the definition of attractiveness.

The problem is not seeing someone’s body as a sexual object; the problem is seeing that person *only* as a sexual object, using their sexual features to deny their humanity.  If you’re talking about on a street or in a bus, checking someone out is not a violation of them.  It’s when you use it as a weapon, when you deliberately impose your attraction on their consciousness as a means to demean them that you’ve crossed the line.

While I think men are more visually cued, I know for a fact that both males and females gaze. This isn’t limited to one gender, nor is it a problem IMHO.

Comment #194: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/08  at  10:01 PM

In one sense you have a point. An intelligent response to intentionally lame trolling is a waste of effort.

Hahaha, wow.

Shine on you crazy diamond.

Comment #195: Dan  on  07/08  at  10:02 PM

NoSafeSpace:

Did you miss the part about “no expectation of privacy”? It was an intentionally pathological condition, and in any case you’ve intentionally ignored the part where I didn’t actually defend it. Seriously? That happens every damn day on beaches around the world (particularly in Europe and the Caribbean). I don’t think it’s especially kosher, but I’m assuming pretty much any woman who takes off her top on a Mediterranean beach is aware that there’s a chance someone’s taking a picture of her. Gracchus mentions upskirts—yes, okay, it’s public voyeurism, but again, the expectation of privacy attaches; a woman has a reasonable expectation that whatever her clothing covers is private, and upskirt photos are violating in a way a picture of her on a nude beach isn’t. Put it in nonsexual terms—I have a TV show. It makes me uncomfortable to be recognized around town, I’m an extremely introverted person, but that was a bit of privacy I chose to give up.

Comment #196: BrianX  on  07/08  at  10:02 PM

There is no “intent to coerce” in photographing unwitting subjects.  It’s intent to visually appropriate their bodies for the sexual gratification of the photographer.

Link

If a man constructs a dummy, clothes and paints it in exact outward resemblance of yourself, and proceeds to strike it in the face, does your nose bleed?

Comment #197: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/08  at  10:07 PM

The “male gaze” is an invasive sexual behavior, rape is an invasive sexual behavior.  Both are an exercise of male privilege and Othering women.  It’s insane to try to separate the two because they are merely two points on the same spectrum.
NoSafeSpaceForMe on 07/08 at 08:15 PM

I repeat, IO more direct W, females also gaze. Therefore, there is a “female gaze.”  Does it also objectify?  If not, why not?  If sometimes, when?  Under what parameters?

Comment #198: phylosopher  on  07/08  at  10:09 PM

Okay, I haven’t had a chance to read back through everything what with doing actual work at work today and all, but, seriously, you’re claiming that MikeEss is your example of a horrible male oppressor?

Oh, it’s better than that: she’s claiming that third-wave feminists (like Amanda) enable the horrible male oppressors. No doubt that’s the reason that horrible male oppressors like MikeEss and myself are regulars here. Mwa-ha-ha-ha!

Comment #199: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  10:09 PM

There is no “intent to coerce” in photographing unwitting subjects.

Taking intimate photos of an unwitting person involves coercion, just as the more intrusive (remember: spectrum) act of raping an unconscious person involves coercion. The first is a violation of someone’s privacy, the second is a violation of someone’s physical private parts.

Also, in regard to photography, the object is to capture someone on a permanent medium, often with the implied threat of sharing it with others. That’s why it’s a favourite blackmail/revenge technique with creeps.

Comment #200: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  10:11 PM

Sorry, Brian, I missed the “no no pictures” part.  True, no laws were violated, but it’s still a really rapey thing to do.  I’ve seen where those pictures wind up.

The problem is not seeing someone’s body as a sexual object; the problem is seeing that person *only* as a sexual object, using their sexual features to deny their humanity

If you don’t know me from Eve, you are exclusively viewing me as a sex object.

Comment #201: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  10:12 PM

Explain how it involves coercion, Gracchus, when the photographer doesn’t intend to use it as blackmail material.

Comment #202: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  10:15 PM

Gracchus:

That’s what I meant about second-wave feminism being, well, obsolete—its underpinnings are understandable, but it’s like basing one’s physics off of Newton. It worked at the time, but things change and more is learned. Politics, unfortunately, tends not to work that way—following trends and data is wishy-washy, while knee-jerk obstructionism is interpreted as zeal.

Comment #203: BrianX  on  07/08  at  10:15 PM

If you don’t know me from Eve, you are exclusively viewing me as a sex object.

Yeah? Lizard brain at work there. It’s where one goes after that initial impression that counts. Leering, harassment, etc. is not an appropriate response in human society.

Comment #204: BrianX  on  07/08  at  10:17 PM

If you don’t know me from Eve, you are exclusively viewing me as a sex object.

No True Scotsman fallacy, table for one.

Comment #205: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/08  at  10:17 PM

That is from Answers.com.

Jeez, Gracchus, don’t you know when you’re pwned?

Comment #206: asdf  on  07/08  at  10:18 PM

Sorry, Brian, most feminist blogs are heavy on 2nd wave philosophy, and most feminists I know identify more with 2nd wave.  Yep, we think 3rd wavers are keeping patriarchy alive and well.  In fact, when some of us are feeling particularly uncharitable, we call them “fauxminists”.  Note, I said “some”.

Comment #207: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  10:19 PM

Explain how it involves coercion, Gracchus, when the photographer doesn’t intend to use it as blackmail material.

Implied threat, even if unknown to the victim. If you’ve seen where those nude beach photos wind up, you’ve no doubt seen the salacious copy those creeps attach to their photographic “trophys.”

Now your turn: explain how raping an unconscious woman doesn’t involve coercion in the case where the rapist doesn’t intend to tell the victim or anyone else about it.

Comment #208: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  10:20 PM

NoSafeSpace:

So what you’re saying is that “some” of you are second-wave fundamentalists, essentially. Like I said, obsolete.

Comment #209: BrianX  on  07/08  at  10:21 PM

Jeez, Gracchus, don’t you know when you’re pwned?

The answers.com quote shook my world, lemme tell ya! I’ll never look at a rainbow the same way.

Comment #210: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  10:22 PM

NoSafeSpaceForMe, this is just getting sad.

Comment #211: Sidwood  on  07/08  at  10:23 PM

The “female gaze” does not exist, on a conceptual level, in a patriarchal society because it is not imbued with all the cultural implications that the “male gaze” is weighted with.  Women do objectify, but I would argue that the women have learned it from the men and are just being One Of The Guys.  I used to have a wicked sexual objectification streak, but I cured myself of it with a relatively simple method of cultural deprogramming called Knocking That Shit Off.

Comment #212: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  10:23 PM

Sidwood:

I agree. NSSFM, that’s a fine bit of special pleading you have there, but cultural baggage aside, that’s bullshit. Yes, it has a somewhat different loading due to power imbalances between the sexes, but it’s the same thing.

Comment #213: BrianX  on  07/08  at  10:25 PM

Brian, saying it’s obsolete doesn’t make it so, except in your imagination.

Comment #214: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  10:26 PM

Yep, we think 3rd wavers are keeping patriarchy alive and well.

So your solution is to lurk here for a while, then beat around the bush until you can resist no longer.

Really, if you’re waiting to be banned, don’t hold your breath—this isn’t a 2nd-wave blog like Shakesville.

In fact, when some of us are feeling particularly uncharitable, we call them “fauxminists”.  Note, I said “some”.

Ah, so a spectrum of 2nd wave feminists. By your monochromatic definition of the term, “some” = “all.”

Comment #215: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  10:27 PM

It doesn’t involve coercion, Gracchus.  Rape is using someone else’s body for your own sexual gratification WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT.  Rape does not always involve psychological manipulation, and why the eff do you think it does?  It’s about consent, period.

Comment #216: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  10:29 PM

NSSFM, the problem with second wave feminism is that it’s insular and dogmatic, and like all dogmatic systems of thought, it very quickly ceases to bear any relationship to objective reality.  I can see from your comments that the second wave has already progressed to the “lashing out at those who are percieved to be impure” stage of an obsolete, failed dogmatism.

Comment #217: Sidwood  on  07/08  at  10:30 PM

The Male Gaze is intent to visually appropriate a woman’s body, in a transient sense, for the sexual gratification of the Gazer.

I object to your current visual appropriation of my words for your edification and/or enlightenment. if you learn anything from this analogy, I insist you pay me the going rate as a tutor.

Comment #218: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/08  at  10:30 PM

NSSFM:

I think of things in scientific terms. Knowledge advances, whether it’s scientific data or politics, and things need to change to compensate. Second-wavers have not compensated and remain outside the mainstream. This is what happens to all political movements that don’t learn to play the game.

Look at Martin Luther King, for example, or Gandhi—they knew how to play the game, and did so masterfully. Meanwhile Jesse Jackson is an embarrassing sideshow with a tendency to shoot off his mouth.

Comment #219: BrianX  on  07/08  at  10:31 PM

NoSafeSpace, you can equate having sexual thoughts about women to rape until you’re blue in the face, but that doesn’t make the assertion any less ridiculous.  As just about everyone here has said, leering and unwanted attention is not acceptable, but you seem to have a problem with people thinking about someone’s breasts or whatever without expressed written permission.  I wish you could hear how ludicrous you sound.

Comment #220: Sidwood  on  07/08  at  10:34 PM

It doesn’t involve coercion, Gracchus.  Rape is using someone else’s body for your own sexual gratification WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT.  Rape does not always involve psychological manipulation, and why the eff do you think it does?  It’s about consent, period.

In their most fundamental sense, we’re talking about forms of theft. Theft is a form of coercion, or at least overlaps heavily with it, because you’re laying claim to things you have no right to and forcibly depriving someone else of them, whether it be a wrist watch, a wallet, or the consent to dictate their sexuality.

As for psychological manipulation and rape—what the hell is it if it’s not psychological manipulation? If rape is a crime of domination, not of sex, than it is psychological manipulation at its most blatant level—bullying. If it’s a crime of sex, it’s a highly invasive and personal form of theft—the theft of control, consent, and privacy. Given the nature of the crime, I think it safe to say that all of the above apply.

Comment #221: BrianX  on  07/08  at  10:35 PM

Alright, alright.  No more interesting discussion can be had now, I see.  It’s all devolved into one giant snarkfest.  I’ll leave and let you all get back to pretending to be feminists while Othering women and telling them to take your Othering shit whether they like it or not, mmm kay?

Comment #222: NoSafeSpaceForMe  on  07/08  at  10:37 PM

It doesn’t involve coercion, Gracchus.  Rape is using someone else’s body for your own sexual gratification WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT.

Since you were kind enough to give me the answers.com definition of “spectrum,” allow me to give you the Wikipedia definition of “coercion”:

Coercion is the practice of compelling a person or manipulating them to behave in an involuntary way (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats, intimidation, trickery, or some other form of pressure or force.

[emphasis mine]. I’d say drugging someone is a form of pressure or force. Perhaps you think otherwise.

I have to agree with sidwood—watching you debate getting sad. And by sad, I don’t mean Wikipedia sad or even Answers.com sad. I mean Yahoo Answers sad.

Comment #223: Gracchus.  on  07/08  at  10:38 PM

Alright, alright.  No more interesting discussion can be had now, I see.  It’s all devolved into one giant snarkfest.  I’ll leave and let you all get back to pretending to be feminists while Othering women and telling them to take your Othering shit whether they like it or not, mmm kay?

Dark Avenger:

Are we still waiting for that table for the No True Scotsman?

Comment #224: BrianX  on  07/08  at  10:39 PM

If you don’t know me from Eve, you are exclusively viewing me as a sex object.

Correct.  But the point is that I am not using that as a means to deny your humanity now, am I? 

I may see you *only* as a sexual object, but that’s because of circumstances.  If I use that to try and impose a view of you *just* as a sexual object (“Hey, baby, show us yer tits!”) THEN you have a problem and I’m being an obnoxious asshole.

Comment #225: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/08  at  10:43 PM

NoSafeSpace: if you can’t handle your paranoid dogma being challenged, you shouldn’t share it with other people.  Go back to the “real” feminists, the ones who agree with you in every way!

Comment #226: Sidwood  on  07/08  at  10:44 PM

while Othering women and telling them to take your Othering shit whether they like it or not, mmm kay?

Well, that was rather condescending.  Thanks!

As for “Othering”:

Yep, we think 3rd wavers are keeping patriarchy alive and well.  In fact, when some of us are feeling particularly uncharitable, we call them “fauxminists”.  Note, I said “some”.

So we’re the “fake feminists”.  But we’re othering you?  There’s a few uncharitable words I’m thinking of right now.

Women do objectify, but I would argue that the women have learned it from the men and are just being One Of The Guys.

So me gazing at a man I find sexually appealing is something I learned from other men?  Or is it that I really like to look at men’s asses that I learned from other men, and not certainly something that I would come up with on my own?  Way to say that I have no sexual agency there.  Again, thanks!

Comment #227: SporkeyO  on  07/08  at  10:54 PM

Sorry, Brian, most feminist blogs are heavy on 2nd wave philosophy, and most feminists I know identify more with 2nd wave.

Do the words “selection bias” mean anything?

Or do you have an objective definition of what is and isn’t a feminist blog, a comprehensive enumeration of same, and a means of classifying them into 2nd and 3rd wave?

Comment #228: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/08  at  10:54 PM

I’ve been happy to cut NoSafeSpace plenty of slack without getting into personal attacks, without accusing her/him of being a troll, etc. 

The discussion has been interesting.  I love to learn about other people’s views and whether they have valid points, and examine my own thoughts on these topics.

But, I have to say, NoSafeSpace seems to be getting a little trollish, and I’m disappointed.  I’ve been arguing in good faith, but I’m not sure they have been.

Oh well…

Comment #229: MikeEss  on  07/08  at  10:55 PM

Way to say that I have no sexual agency there.

Like I said, second-wave feminism is infantilizing when it comes to sex. Considering the circumstances it appeared in (I’ve always thought it was a reaction by the daughters of Rosies the Riveters to seeing them being sent home from work when WWII was over), it’s certainly understandable given the atmosphere of overt coercion it began under, but it seems like the second-wavers sat out the Sexual Revolution. (It would certainly explain why Cosmo is such a useless rag—one wonders, if Helen Gurley Brown hadn’t been treated as a feminist pariah, whether it would be more like Sassy than Seventeen now. Maybe, maybe not.)

I’m not going to go so far as to say that the point involves just creating a different form of oppression; I really don’t think it is. But the simple fact that we have clear distinctions between second-wave and third-wave shows that there is a large population of people that thought that second-wave feminism didn’t fulfill its promise and that something had to change. (I have an idea, NSSFM—instead of starting ideological pissing contests, why don’t you do something productive, like organize a lobbying group to revive the ERA? Hell, I’d even give money to that.)

Comment #230: BrianX  on  07/08  at  11:05 PM

they are both invasions of someone’s space. The fact that one is a relatively minor discomfort (depending, of course, on the stare-ee’s comfort level) and one is a physical invasion of one’s body that is often worse than murder doesn’t change that.

A prostate exam is also an invasion of someone’s space.  So is standing on a crowded subway.  So is a foul in the game of basketball.  So is having to share a bed with your siblings when you stay over at Grandma’s.  So is the loud car stereo outside my apartment.  Those aren’t on the “rape spectrum” are they?  Is getting a paper cut on the “murder spectrum”? 

Do you find it offensive when right wingers said that the “liberal” media “gang raped” Palin by asking her tough questions, or do you think that’s a fair assessment?  Do you find it offensive when Bill O’Reilly compares a town not having a manger on the courthouse lawn or whatever to slavery?  How about comparing abortion to the holocaust?  Seriously, do you not see why trying to marginalize and appropriate someone else’s suffering to enhance your own self-created victim narrative is wrong?

Here’s a wacky idea: don’t compare anything to the holocaust, to slavery, or rape (for starters).  There’s no reasonable excuse for trying to appropriate someone else’s tragedy or pretending like you can even begin to understand it enough to even make a bad analogy involving it.  The English language is full of other words that you’re welcome to use.

Comment #231: liminalist  on  07/08  at  11:23 PM

Suppose that a guy breaks into my house at night and rapes me. I am wearing short shorts and a T-shirt. Some of us sleep naked. Following the sexist author’s logic, we were asking for it.

I assume we’re supposed to sleep in those mummy-shaped sleeping bags, furthermore, with the zipper padlocked at the top.

Comment #232: sara  on  07/08  at  11:25 PM

Brian X

Nah, our guest isn’t hungry,

but I’m going to be hospitable in return for her being so smart to realize what bunch of slavering perverts
and inhospitable bastards we are for refusing to bow to her hard-fought insights that allow her to characterize us as pseudofeminists who won’t give up using the male gaze and use echolocation so that she doesn’t have to worry that for one microsecond, someone might pass her on the street, see her and think unspeakable thoughts once her image reaches his frontal lobes.

Comment #233: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/08  at  11:37 PM

Apparently we’ve gone from every man who looks at a woman with lust committing adultery in his heart to committing rape in his heart.

Comment #234: Tyro  on  07/08  at  11:39 PM

BrianX, do you know any women who lived through the sexual revolution (so-called)? Do you know them well enough to ask them what it was like? (If you haven’t, but you could, I think you should.)

Do you find it strange that the women who disappoint you by their attitudes to sex are the very same generation of women who were there for the sexual revolution, as opposed to those you approve of, who, like me and I suspect like you, were born after it was all over? Are you unaware that some of the very bitterest of second-wave feminists are the same women who, far from “sitting it out,” fought it with their own bodies, or do you simply not believe this is the case?

I am trying to get at something here, and I dearly hope it is obvious. Basically, I am very curious to know where you are getting your social history from. I don’t think you’re making your narrative up out of thin air, but I don’t think you’re basing it on much real knowledge, either.

I have an idea, NSSFM—instead of starting ideological pissing contests, why don’t you do something productive, like organize a lobbying group to revive the ERA?

I’m not on her side, but the obvious rejoinder would be to ask why you don’t do this yourself. Surely it would be more useful if it were the winners of these arguments who were expected to Do Something Productive. Shouldn’t it be the smart, sensible feminists who get exhorted to be movers and shakers? It’s hard to take a call for activism seriously when it’s used as a polite way to say shut up.

Comment #235: sophonisba  on  07/08  at  11:42 PM

Those damn frontal lobes.  If we’d just take them out at birth, there’d be no more ______…

Comment #236: MikeEss  on  07/08  at  11:43 PM

I’m not on her side, but the obvious rejoinder would be to ask why you don’t do this yourself. Surely it would be more useful if it were the winners of these arguments who were expected to Do Something Productive. Shouldn’t it be the smart, sensible feminists who get exhorted to be movers and shakers? It’s hard to take a call for activism seriously when it’s used as a polite way to say shut up.

I wanted to say something this adroit, but I didn’t have it in me today.

Comment #237: asdf  on  07/08  at  11:53 PM

Predators always go after the weak in the herd.  It reminds me of the hot, but stupid guy I dated last year who, at the time, claimed to have almost exclusively dated (and once married) plus sized women.  It was nice for me since he was hot and a decent lay, but the guy definitely lost interest in me as soon as he realized that I was confident and sure of myself despite my size.

Comment #238: Ursula  on  07/09  at  12:33 AM

Those damn frontal lobes.  If we’d just take them out at birth, there’d be no more ______…

Arguing with the wingnuts?

Comment #239: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/09  at  12:40 AM

While I think men are more visually cued, I know for a fact that both males and females gaze. This isn’t limited to one gender, nor is it a problem IMHO.

My wife will watch anything featuring Clive Owen, even films (such as Shoot ‘Em Up) that she normally wouldn’t watch.  I’ve caught her more than once staring rather intently at our big screen when Clive’s face (or arms, or back, or butt, or right pinky) is visible.  I have no doubt, and she’s quite openly stated, that if she ever saw him in person (or someone who looked enough like him) that the “Oh, I’d Like to Get a Piece of That Action” look will come out.

Comment #240: KeithM  on  07/09  at  12:40 AM

The hypothetical woman skating along in nothing but a bikini (hypothetical to me, as she’d be a brave lass indeed to try that in our climate!) is for you a product of trust; for me, she is the visible embodiment of rape culture, the underdressed equivalent of the woman swathed from head to foot in black drapery.

And what would you prefer she be dressed in?  What meets your standards?  And why should she give a rat’s ass about your standards?

Actually, I find the idea that she’s being forced in the bikini just like some countries force women into total coverage highly amusing.  Apparently women are incapable of choosing to wear a bikini instead of a one-piece, or shorts and a t-shirt, or a track suit, or a formal business outfit when it’s appropriate.

That makes you different from the people who claim women should do what they’re told and not have independent agency how, exactly?

Comment #241: KeithM  on  07/09  at  12:57 AM

My wife will comment on attractive men she sees more than I’ll comment on attractive women that I see. I don’t feel that she is eye-raping them, nor is she disrespecting me by scoping out attractive men. Nor is she poisoned by our sexual culture in any way. I certainly understand that women probably get leered at a lot more than men do, in our culture, which sucks, but I don’t see why a quick glance at an attractive woman and a fleeting fantasy later on harms anyone, the same way a hetero woman glancing at a hot guy and maybe fantasizing about it later harms anyone either. I don’t see this in any way equivalent to rape, because there’s no violation of the other person’s space.

Also, I count at least 3 Flounces out of this thread for NoSafeSpace, yet she’s still here and posting. Classic behavior for someone who isn’t articulate enough to construct a coherent argument.

Comment #242: Norsecats  on  07/09  at  01:05 AM

sophonisba:

I’m not going to sit here and revel in my own ignorance, but I have to say it doesn’t seem to be much of a coincidence that second-wave feminism seems to come from the same concept of sexual mores as the stultifying 1950s that they came from. And I am quite aware that some of the bitterest second-wavers did in fact live on the front lines and take a lot of abuse. To a certain extent I can sympathize with that; as someone who grew up mostly in the Reagan/Bush years as a somewhat rootless, occasionally bullied outcast, I know what it’s like to not be able to get beyond your emotional scars, but dammit I’m trying, and I expect the same from anyone who still has it left in them to fight. No, I never dealt with systemic abuses that white males simply aren’t subject to. And yes, the ERA crack was something of a cheap shot. But when someone sits there and pushes a view that treats anyone who fits into the class she wants to defend who doesn’t agree with her opinion on how to defend them as a traitor, fuck yeah I’m going to tell her to do something that’s actually useful. As for me doing something… well, that’s a good idea.

liminalist:

Your examples are all over the place when it comes to relevance. What about consent? What about necessity? What about unavoidable contact? What about (in the case of the papercut) sheer dumb luck? When it comes to the spectrum of sexual harrassment/assault, only consent out of all of the above issues has any relevance. The rapist can choose not to rape; the groper has no legitimate excuse for grabbing someone’s ass in a subway. We are talking about intent here.

As for referencing slavery, I will use whatever historical examples I think I need to explain my point. (And as I reread what I wrote, I think it pretty safe to say you weren’t really paying attention to my point.)

Comment #243: BrianX  on  07/09  at  01:18 AM

In the real world, however, nothing’s ever that simple.  Use the date rape example: why in the holy hell would a woman go out with a guy who she knows has a history of assault, blatant misogyny, or any of the warning signs that a blind person would recognize?  We know this happens.  In that case, she has done something to put herself in that situation.  Does she deserve what happens?  Of course not, no one does.  Did she expect it to happen?  Hell no, not unless she has a psychological condition.  But she made it easier, intentionally or not.  She deserves no blame for the rape, and no culpability in its cause (because he probably would have gone after someone who didn’t know about that background, so whether or not she knew about it is immaterial in the actual crime) but she did make a mistake.  Maybe the mistake was in thinking that he’d treat her differently, maybe a mistake in her sense of how well she could defend herself, maybe a mistake in getting tanked and being maneuvered into a situation where he could do it, but it was a mistake.

Keith, no one has gotten around to seriously calling you on this because they’re too busy arguing with the True Feminist, but I just have to say: even as you’re making a lot of noise about how you’re not blaming the victim, guess what?  You’re still blaming the victim.

Date rapists seldom advertise what they are, and their victims (who are often confused about just what happened and in many cases blaming themselves for their assault - if nothing else, for…imagine that!...putting themselves in a vulnerable position) seldom advertise it, either. 

“Blatant misogyny” is very subjective.  A guy can get away with a lot in the way of misogyny and still be considered “normal” - enough so that he doesn’t seem dangerous.  As for the “history of assaults”?  Bitches were lying (if any ever actually told anyone, that is) - they regretted it the morning after and wanted to get him in trouble. 

Of course, general denial - caused by the kind of bullshit that was the original subject of this post - has its own part to play.  I wonder how many believe that it could never happen to them, because they’re Good Women, and they don’t dress or behave in the ways that get the Dirty Sluts raped.

Why do you feel the need to argue this point, anyway?  Do you think women who’ve been raped don’t spend enough time thinking about what they coulda shoulda done, or that they don’t hear it enough from others?

Comment #244: Seraph  on  07/09  at  01:29 AM

I think that no safe thoughts is setting a fine example of the preferred pure sexuality: masturbation while wearing blinders.

Comment #245: Ms Kate  on  07/09  at  01:30 AM

I have to say at this point I have little else to say except that I wonder if email to Ted Kennedy or John Kerry might be helpful on the ERA front…

Comment #246: BrianX  on  07/09  at  01:36 AM

masturbation while wearing blinders

Bring in a riding crop, and this could get interesting.

Comment #247: asdf  on  07/09  at  01:43 AM

Seraph:That post bothered me as well. There’s one situation in particular where it could clearly apply, and I don’t think it means what Dan thinks it means.

Let’s say there’s a guy who tends to get more than a bit pushy with his dates. He’s been going through a social circle, and there’s been rumors about this, but they’ve been laughed off. So another woman goes out with him, and he rapes her (or sexually assaults or whatever)

What’s to blame isn’t the woman. Or the other woman in the social circle. What is to blame for the added “responsibility”, is actually the society as a whole that laughs off that sort of pushiness. That’s the rape culture that’s talked about. So blaming the woman in this case is a sort of DOUBLE blaming the victim.

In any case, believe it or not, there really is a limited amount of blame and responsibility to go around. Wasting it on “coulda shoulda” is a waste of time and energy.

Comment #248: Karmakin  on  07/09  at  01:44 AM

The “female gaze” does not exist, on a conceptual level, in a patriarchal society because it is not imbued with all the cultural implications that the “male gaze” is weighted with.

You do know that Laura Mulvey says that her original discussion of the male gaze was much too simplistic, right?

Not to mention that, as Mulvey was criticized for at the time, you’re basically saying that lesbians don’t exist because it’s impossible in your construction for a woman to look at another woman with desire since all desirous looks are driven by the male gaze.  If the female gaze doesn’t exist, then it’s impossible for lesbians to find one another attractive.

Comment #249: Mnemosyne  on  07/09  at  01:53 AM

I won’t call troll on NSSFM. Maybe she’s really sincere. But I’d just like to ask one question: What if your dreaded male gaze stopped short of extended ogling and almost never led to catcalls or harassment? What if almost every man had the good sense to discern when a kind word and eye contact from a woman was probably just an expression of appreciation, and if it was more, to stop far short of stalking or harassment if things didn’t work out? What if women of all ages and sizes could be who they are without being shamed? What if men took the responsibility to address other men when they went too far and thus shape the actions of our peers?

The objectifying male gaze wouldn’t be such a problem then, would it?

Comment #250: Bacopa  on  07/09  at  04:36 AM

Date rapists seldom advertise what they are, and their victims (who are often confused about just what happened and in many cases blaming themselves for their assault - if nothing else, for…imagine that!...putting themselves in a vulnerable position) seldom advertise it, either.

In which case there’s no responsibility.  I’m only talking about situation where someone would reasonably know there is specific risk.

...Why do you feel the need to argue this point, anyway?  Do you think women who’ve been raped don’t spend enough time thinking about what they coulda shoulda done, or that they don’t hear it enough from others?

It was in response to the comment that it doesn’t matter what the victim does.  In terms of what the rapist does, it likely doesn’t: as I said, if he’s prepared to do it, who the victim is is immaterial.  From the victim’s point of view, I think it matters.

And yeah, having people get on your case about what you coulda shoulda done doesn’t help.  I know that feeling:  in a recent manslaughter case I, as a first responder, had my decisions questioned in order to shift blame from the person who committed the act by implying that I’d actually caused the death.  The lawyer hadn’t been there, he didn’t have my experience, how dare he get in my face about it.  That said, looking back at it, if I’m honest with myself, there are some things I would have done differently.  It wouldn’t have changed the outcome at all, but I’d feel a bit better about my actions.  And I’ll know the next time and freely share that lesson so someone else hopefully doesn’t face that same situation and make the same mistakes.

From my white heterosexual privileged male perspective, and I admit that it could entirely be my biases talking, I don’t accept that we aren’t allowed to ask if there’s anything the victim did that made it easier for that rapist to select that particular victim.  If the answer is “no”, well, that’s the answer, and I have no doubt that is the case for the vast majority of rapes.  Are there some times when the victim could have made herself less of a target without requiring her to go around like she was on someone’s hit list?  Or is it, in any given case, a problem beyond the individual (such as the acceptance of date rape in some social circles).  Isn’t that information useful and worth knowing?

And sure, some people would use that sort of question to blame the victim.  They’re morons.  Do you accept that they’re inevitably going to dominate any discussion and make it useless to have?  I don’t know. Maybe.  That also I’d like to know because that indicates a societal problem itself.

Comment #251: KeithM  on  07/09  at  04:41 AM

It’s good to do pushback against this disgraceful sort of thing, but I do want to add a little bit of context: This is the Telegraph, which is to say that it’s the British newspaper equivalent of whatever’s *WORSE* than Fox News. (Washington Times, maybe.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Telegraph#Political_stance

It’s owned by a couple of brothers who sound like real prizewinners:
“When a Conservative politician, Nadine Dorries, suggested that the Telegraph’s revelations had become like a McCarthyist witch-hunt, she was ostracised by the her party. When she posted an item on her blog [2] which suggested that the reclusive billionaire Barclay brothers, owners of The Telegraph, were orchestrating the expenses details in an attempt to destabilise British politics in order to swing voters towards a right-wing, anti-European ballot, The Telegraph took legal action to have her blog closed down.”

This newspaper used to publish Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, the guy who falsely accused Bill Clinton of murdering Vince Foster, among other things, and also used to publish Mark Steyn.

So, while they are disgraceful, and while there is a real danger of the work being twisted here in the U.S., for the Telegraph, it’a par for the course. And that should also be a message that can be pushed, to make sure the Telegraph as a source gets fully discredited for whatever jackass thing they choose to say next.

Comment #252: gregm  on  07/09  at  05:45 AM

I always thought of the Male Gaze as a power-based soial construct, that applies mostly to men because of their privileged position in society, but can sometimes apply to women to, since class, race, money, and a host of other factors mean that not ALL men are superior to ALL women, even in the harshest of patriarchies.

I actually theorized a Female Gaze in a graduate paper once - I based it on Real Person Slash fanfic, and discussed the construction of a subjectifying gaze, one that takes sexual objects (boybands, actors) and gives them emotional depth and context for sexual gratificaition grin

Comment #253: Tefnut  on  07/09  at  06:57 AM

I don’t feel that she is eye-raping them, nor is she disrespecting me by scoping out attractive men. Nor is she poisoned by our sexual culture in any way.

But you do understand what it means, yes? Or are you saying it never happens?

Comment #254: banisteriopsis  on  07/09  at  07:23 AM

I’d like to come back to what TheLady said about a zillion comments ago:

So there has to be a way in which a culture gets away from staring completely (not staring is in general a Japanese thing, in all circumstances, not just in a sexual context) without turning into sexless mush. To suggest that our aggressive Western way of checking each other out openly is “natural” is just silly.

Because I’ve noticed this when I travel as well.  Not just to Japan, but also to Europe: I’m just more comfortable (i.e. less concerned with the ‘male gaze’) outside of the US.  Maybe I’m just not picking up on the cultural cues for assholery when I’m not at home, but it seems to me that other cultures, even ones as sex-and-youth obsessed as we are, are way less in-your-face about it when it comes to personal interactions.  I am far more comfortable on a Portuguese beach or a Japanese public bath than I am at a pool in the US because people seem to mind their fucking beeswax better.  In America, if someone has an opinion about you, good or bad, they find a way to let you know.  And there’s enough of those jerks to make any public space kind of stressful.  We’re so used to it that we don’t notice how obvious we are; I myself tend to forget until I travel and find myself able to relax in public areas in a way that I simply never really do at home.  And this can’t be a result of these other cultures’ superior feminist enlightenment - some of the places I go and people I hang out with are very old-school when it comes to gender. 

In my town, we have a surfeit of young, bored, angry white guys.  They come in both college student and uneducated redneck flavors.  It’s relatively common for women, foreigners, and people who merely “look gay” to have things yelled (and thrown) at them from cars as they walk down the street.  I’m pretty used to getting that treatment, and I generally just ignore it.  It’s not until someone from another country comes up to me, confused and upset, asking about what just happened to them that I remember I really shouldn’t have to put up with that shit.  But I tell them to ignore it, too.  Why start a fight over what some asshole thinks of you?  The foreigners don’t like that answer; they want to do something that will make it stop, but what are you going to do?  Convince every douchebag in town individually to mind their p’s and q’s?

Comment #255: Kyso K  on  07/09  at  07:50 AM

Damn, this thread is still going on?  I didn’t get a chance to respond, but I read up to about comment 200 last night.  My opinion is No Safe is a parody troll, intending to make feminist agitation against rape and sexual harassment look stupid.  Which is shocking, but nothing shocks me anymore about the ways that anti-feminists will actually try to argue, without coming right out and saying it, that men should be free to rape and harass.

Anyway, parody troll.  Probably a man.  And I happily “eye fucked” (gotta admit that for a stupid right winger, that joke landed) some lifeguards yesterday.  Lesbians also eyefuck each other, though I will have to say that if No Space is for real, then she might be one of those rare genuinely uptight feminists who likes to believe lesbians only hold hands.

Comment #256: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/09  at  09:26 AM

I also am amused by No Space’s simplistic ideas about “waves”, which is another reason I think “she” is a he and a parody.  Ellen Willis, for instance, is in the second wave, and certainly had a healthy appreciation for sexual display and appreciation.  She was a big rock music fan, after all.  Rock certainly treated groupies like disposable, but it evolved, and in the direction Willis’s writing would suggest it would.

Comment #257: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/09  at  09:28 AM

banister: yes, I understand what NoSafeSpace was trying to say. An appreciative glance is different from a leer. Both are far different than hoots and catcalls.

Comment #258: Norsecats  on  07/09  at  10:01 AM

I’m always shocked when these types of commenters are called trolls.  She reads like someone who didn’t know a thing about feminism until she took Women’s Studies 101 last semester and now she wants everyone to know how easily her life changed after she heard the good word.  The zeal of a convert and all that.  I imagine she’ll mature out of it eventually.

Comment #259: Rachel,II  on  07/09  at  11:25 AM

I’ve always felt that being a troll and being sincere are not mutually exclusive. The point of being a troll is to get reactions—look at Ted Holden who used to bedevil talk.origins on Usenet. He was/is a wholly sincere creationist and Velikovskyite, yet his cyclical posting pattern just screams troll.

Comment #260: BrianX  on  07/09  at  11:28 AM

aebhel, you beat me to it. It would seem like the thing to do to compare male/male rape to male/female rape for the purposes of showing how sexist and misogynist our society gets toward the female victim. Alas, it’s rarely brought up that way, it is, like I said, used to minimize the fact of men raping women.

Comment #261: LCforevah  on  07/09  at  11:43 AM

Ah, yeah, BrianX, I guess you’re right.  I was defining “troll” as someone with bad intentions to begin with.  But true, once you start being a belligerant idiot it’s fair game to call you a troll.

Comment #262: Rachel,II  on  07/09  at  11:59 AM

Gracchus on 07/08 at 08:02 PM

In certain countries where that culture (basically tribal Middle Eastern cultures which have codified the practise in religious and/or state law), it is indeed the only option in public. Iran and KSA come to mind. Those were the feminist “utopias” I was describing.

Given that -

a) This was in direct response to a statement of mine about the (hah) spectrum of Muslim veils culminating in niqab and burqa, making them emphatically not “the only option”

and

b) I find it hard to believe that you’ve failed to see enough pictures of Iranian women in recent weeks to see for yourself that neither the burqa nor the niqab are practice in Iran, and that Iranian veiling takes quite a wide range of forms from a simple headscarf over Western-style clothing to floor length black abaya

I’m afraid that your argument approaches the appearance of bad-faith derailing attempts enough for me to want to terminate the conversation now. This impression is reinforced by the dig at my handle, which is disingenuously US-centric in concentrating on the gendered aspect of the term “lady”, ignoring different cultural meanings such as the historico-aristocratic (e.g. Lady Diana Spencer) and the spiritual (e.g. The Lady of pagan faiths).

Comment #263: MarinaS  on  07/09  at  01:03 PM

b) I find it hard to believe that you’ve failed to see enough pictures of Iranian women in recent weeks to see for yourself that neither the burqa nor the niqab are practice in Iran, and that Iranian veiling takes quite a wide range of forms from a simple headscarf over Western-style clothing to floor length black abaya

You’re absolutely correct. I was imprecise—I was reading your discussion of specific garment as part of the general practise of “veiling” (which covers, so to speak, the wide range you mention) rather than the specific garment, and should have specified that.

Bottom line: the culture undeniably is demanding (often by law) that women wear something they might not choose to wear on their own, and banning garments that they might very well choose to wear. I’m sure you’d agree that’s not a particularly good thing from a feminist point of view, and that a second-wave feminist wouldn’t find those cultures particularly attractive, even though they’re cutting down on the ogling.

In Western culture, I don’t see many instances of that kind of rule going on for adults in public. The unfortunate exception to that, of course, is what’s gone on in France regarding banning the hijab. But even there, they seem to have realised that outlawing a woman’s garment—even in the name of secularism—is somewhat at odds with a nation-state that considers itself an exemplar of Western culture.

This impression is reinforced by the dig at my handle, which is disingenuously US-centric in concentrating on the gendered aspect of the term “lady”

The dig wasn’t at your handle—it’s a dig at the type of second-wave feminist who gets into a snit (genuine or not) about an innocuous blog handle like yours. Although it’s un-PC in the U.S. to call an unfamiliar group of women “ladies,” it makes no difference to me what someone calls herself.

Comment #264: Gracchus.  on  07/09  at  01:25 PM

I’m afraid that your argument approaches the appearance of bad-faith derailing attempts enough for me to want to terminate the conversation now. This impression is reinforced by the dig at my handle, which is disingenuously US-centric in concentrating on the gendered aspect of the term “lady”, ignoring different cultural meanings such as the historico-aristocratic (e.g. Lady Diana Spencer) and the spiritual (e.g. The Lady of pagan faiths).
TheLady on 07/09 at 12:03 PM

Fucking bullshit and get over yourself.  The comment was about your narcissistic choice of article and how that in itself objectified you.  “A” versus “the” or just no article in general.

Comment #265: phylosopher  on  07/09  at  01:53 PM

The dig wasn’t at your handle—it’s a dig at the type of second-wave feminist who gets into a snit (genuine or not) about an innocuous blog handle like yours.

Your correction taken on board, for all that I emphatically do not identify myself with this or that “wave” and try to stay away from those sorts of arguments as much as possible. (lord preserve me)

Bottom line: the culture undeniably is demanding (often by law) that women wear something they might not choose to wear on their own, and banning garments that they might very well choose to wear. I’m sure you’d agree that’s not a particularly good thing from a feminist point of view, and that a second-wave feminist wouldn’t find those cultures particularly attractive, even though they’re cutting down on the ogling.

Fully agreed about no Muslim theocracy being a feminist paradise, waves or no. I have never met a feminist who thinks hiding women away is the answer to harassement, so not sure that that is not a straw man in the first place, but it’s pretty clear that nobody is cutting down on anything with the veil - cf recent article about the rise of groping in Egypt tracking the popularity of hijab. Ogling gets cut down when oglers stop ogling. Oglees have nothing to do with it.

But in any case I wasn’t talking about “country”, I was talking about “culture”. Muslim culture exists in, and coexists with, many liberal democracies. I think that talking about Muslim culture only in terms of Iran and Saudi Arabia is unnecessarily Othering Muslim women.

I’m going to talk to the UK, because that is what I know best, but I think it’s safe to assume that equivalences with the US are rife:

- There are many educated women who work outside the home who choose to wear the hijab or niqab
- There are many educated women who work outside the home who choose to wear revealing, hyper-sexualized clothing

- There are many poor, uneducated, dependent and isolated women who are forced into wearing the niqab by violence and economic necessity
- There are many poor, uneducated, dependent (often on substances) women who are forced into prostitution and the accompanying hyper sexualised wardrobe by violence and economic necessity

In between those two extremes all the rest of womanity lies; what I’m trying to highlight with these examples is that the wardrobe choices women make are hardly ever value free, and that the relationship they present to their sexuality via the way they choose to dress is a very important cultural marker in their identity.

In order for that to be the case there has to be an underlying attitude towards a woman’s body as a locus and vehicle of sexuality. Focusing on hiding and or on revealing it are just two sides of the same coin, two ways of expressing the same ambivalent and propriatory approach to women’s bodies.

In Western culture, I don’t see many instances of that kind of rule going on for adults in public.

There is no law in the US forcing women to wear bikinis, and no law forcing women to wear hijab. But they choose to, and I submit that the choices they make represent opposite responses to the same problem: that of their bodies being scrutinized and misappropriated as the bearers of sexuality. Islam teaches that sexual urges should be suppressed, and so the female body, as the locus of passion, ought to be hidden. Secular humanism teaches that sexual urges are natural and fertile, and so the female body, as the locus of passion, ought to be displayed and glorified.

Comment #266: MarinaS  on  07/09  at  02:33 PM

I have never met a feminist who thinks hiding women away is the answer to harassment, so not sure that that is not a straw man in the first place

Well, NoSafeSpace’s alternative was for men to stop looking at (or, in her charming terminology, “eye-fucking”) women they find attractive. Beyond allowing women to call people out for blatant leering/ogling, there’s not many practical measures that a culture can take to prevent it. The Middle-Eastern tribal patriarchal culture (and its associated Muslim religion) uses the veil ostensibly to “protect” women from harrassment of a strange man looking at her—we don’t like it, but it is a practical and effective way to accomplish that stated goal.

But in any case I wasn’t talking about “country”, I was talking about “culture”.

I was, too—it’s important to make distinctions between culture, geography, and religion (not to mention race). However, in the countries I mentioned, the “culture of the veil” is in charge as a practical solution to the “problem” of strange men looking at women, and likely was so prior to the advent Mohammed. Other countries dominated by either the Muslim religion or Middle-Eastern tribal culture obviously take other approaches—the more enlightened ones don’t dictate what a woman can and can’t wear.

In between those two extremes all the rest of womanity lies; what I’m trying to highlight with these examples is that the wardrobe choices women make are hardly ever value free, and that the relationship they present to their sexuality via the way they choose to dress is a very important cultural marker in their identity.

Very true. The issue was that NoSafeSpace basically agrees with the cultures under discussion in terms the basic “problem” (i.e. stopping people from looking at other people they find attractive). She offered no practical solution, so I just presented her with a more practical real-world method for accomplishing the utopian goal she seems to desire.

There is no law in the US forcing women to wear bikinis, and no law forcing women to wear hijab. But they choose to, and I submit that the choices they make represent opposite responses to the same problem: that of their bodies being scrutinized and misappropriated as the bearers of sexuality.

Indeed. The point is, there’s a choice offered in Western culture. Wear a burqa, wear a bikini, wear whatever the heck you want: because you’re a grown-up, and because our culture operates on the correct assumption that not every man who looks at a woman is planning on raping her.

I submit that the choices they make represent opposite responses to the same problem: that of their bodies being scrutinized and misappropriated as the bearers of sexuality.

And I submit that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes you don’t want to drape yourself in heavy clothing for a hot day at the beach.

Honestly, TheLady, we’re agreed on the basic points, so I’ll end my participation in this over-long thread here.

Comment #267: Gracchus.  on  07/09  at  03:41 PM

I just reread that description of the Japanese conference room from The Lady.

I have one question: do we call you “The Lady” or does “The Lady Godiva” suffice?  It seriously sounds like one of those famously common naked-in-public dreams

Comment #268: Ms Kate  on  07/09  at  03:57 PM

“Are we still waiting for that table for the No True Scotsman?”

Don’t check out dude’s shapely knees, though.

KeithM,
I think I’d agree with the people who are saying, if I can sum up, what’s the point of picking apart the victim’s actions all? She already got raped, so we’re not going to help that. It’s just going to make her feel worse.

To use your concrete example, if there’s a serial rapist in your town who’s known to be cutting open ground floor window screens during the night and attacking the women he finds, it would make sense that when your girlfriend’s sister is visiting to suggest that you throw a mattress on the floor of your second-floor bedroom, rather than have her sleep downstairs on the couch like she usually would. (This is something we did one time when my now wife and I lived in East Lansing and the papers were warning about this particular rapist victimizing the area.)

But if she had said, “No I’d rather crash on the couch because witless snores like downshifting Peterbilt, I’ll take my chances” and something horrible happened to her, I’d assume you wouldn’t want me to say ‘I told you so.’ That would be horrible, but the whole discussion of anything along those lines you describe sounds like I told you soish, at least to me.

Comment #269: witless chum  on  07/09  at  04:08 PM

But if she had said, “No I’d rather crash on the couch because witless snores like downshifting Peterbilt, I’ll take my chances” and something horrible happened to her, I’d assume you wouldn’t want me to say ‘I told you so.’ That would be horrible, but the whole discussion of anything along those lines you describe sounds like I told you soish, at least to me.

Sure, I agree there’s no pat answer.  I’d never want to do a “I told you so” speech to someone in that situation.

At the same time, though, it’s dishonest to pretend that she didn’t make a mistake, that the victim never makes a mistake.  If there’s an understanding that it was a mistake and we just don’t mention it because everyone knows, well, that’s fine.  But I have, from time to time, seen people take that too far and that quiet understanding becomes mistaken for reality, that the victim is always a completely a helpless actor.  And while it’s horrible for the one person to be reminded, even indirectly, do you deny the next potential victims the opportunity to know what they might be able to do to save themselves from having to deal with the same thing, if, and this is a big if, that by doing so you can help them?

I suppose what I’m getting at is trying to figure out roughly where that fuzzy boundary line is.  I honestly can’t say I know and recently I’ve struggled over that.

Comment #270: KeithM  on  07/09  at  09:35 PM

junk science:

I couldn’t care less what he thinks either way, and it honestly doesn’t bother me if someone “objectifies” me in this sense of the word without my knowing about it. In fact, I would very much prefer not to know about it. I’m also entirely unoffended at the thought that someone, somewhere, might be imagining sex with me, and I would think most people would be similarly unmoved. Real objectification is intended to make you uncomfortable and feel less than human, as the random unobtrusive sexual fantasies of strangers aren’t.

The problem is, a culture where men objectify women all the time and women don’t objectify men much, a culture where male objectification of women is considered normal and acceptable where female objectification of men is either disbelieved or considered slutty, causes problems for women.  Even if the women who are being objectified don’t know specifically that this is happening.

Thoughts really do have effects on behavior.

Does no one else here think that the Miss America Pageant constitutes a degrading ogling even if none of the judges, viewers or other participants get within a foot of any of the contestants?  The next day, do the giggling fifth-grade boys watching the fifth-grade girls and judging them and rating them among themselves not distance themselves from the humanity of those girls?

liminalist:

Equating having sexual thoughts about a person—or, rather, what is actually happening here, equating asserting one’s right to having sexual thoughts about a person—with the physical act of rape is completely indefensible and disgusting.  You have no right to talk that way.  You demean and dishonor the experience and suffering of anybody who’s ever actually been a victim of rape.

I’m a real victim of rape.  More than once.  Maybe you will listen to me.  Maybe not, maybe getting raped means I can’t have any perspective any more.

I don’t think NoSafeSpace is making an equivalence between rape and eyerape; she used “eyerape” for a reason.  I believe that they are the same kind of thing but not the same thing.

Norsecat:

My wife will comment on attractive men she sees more than I’ll comment on attractive women that I see. I don’t feel that she is eye-raping them, nor is she disrespecting me by scoping out attractive men. Nor is she poisoned by our sexual culture in any way. I certainly understand that women probably get leered at a lot more than men do, in our culture, which sucks, but I don’t see why a quick glance at an attractive woman and a fleeting fantasy later on harms anyone, the same way a hetero woman glancing at a hot guy and maybe fantasizing about it later harms anyone either. I don’t see this in any way equivalent to rape, because there’s no violation of the other person’s space.

That it happens all the time, that it’s expected, that men will talk about it among themselves on a regular basis, doesn’t make you think that maybe, just maybe, women aren’t thought of as full humans but as fuck objects more often by men than men are thought of as fuck objects by women?  Your wife is safe in saying these things, it is less threatening for her to say these things, because she has less power to oppress those men for sexual reasons than a man has to oppress a woman for sexual reasons.  There is a whole patriarchy out there that is supported in no small way by men feeling they have the privilege to look at women as fuck objects.

Don’t you think that men thinking of women as fuck objects for a larger portion of time doesn’t affect the way women are treated, both sexually and in the work and political and philosophical and scientific and every other world?

I don’t think the original comment was equivalent to rape or a call to rape.  I think it was sexist and objectifying.  Objectification matters.

An appreciative glance is different from a leer. Both are far different than hoots and catcalls.

I don’t consider a leer that much less than a hoot or catcall.  Maybe I’ve just been leered at better than you have, or the catcalls haven’t been bad enough yet.  The guy watching every woman walk by, licking his lips, staring at their breasts as they approach and then staring at their asses until the next one comes by?  I think that’s as bad as someone yelling “jiggle” at a braless woman.

Comment #271: oldfeminist  on  07/10  at  12:04 AM

Bacopa:

What if your dreaded male gaze stopped short of extended ogling and almost never led to catcalls or harassment? What if almost every man had the good sense to discern when a kind word and eye contact from a woman was probably just an expression of appreciation, and if it was more, to stop far short of stalking or harassment if things didn’t work out? What if women of all ages and sizes could be who they are without being shamed? What if men took the responsibility to address other men when they went too far and thus shape the actions of our peers?

The objectifying male gaze wouldn’t be such a problem then, would it?<blockquote>
I think objectification leads to treating people like objects.  So I think your suggestion is like saying “what if jumping off the roof didn’t lead to falling on the lawn?”

Gracchus:<blockquote>NoSafeSpace’s alternative was for men to stop looking at (or, in her charming terminology, “eye-fucking”) women they find attractive.  Beyond allowing women to call people out for blatant leering/ogling, there’s not many practical measures that a culture can take to prevent it.

Who’s equating now?  Looking isn’t eye-fucking.  That’s true whether I can tell which one you’re doing or not.  Thinking women are inferior isn’t illegal, or detectable but it is fucked up.  Eye-fucking women isn’t illegal, or detectable, but it’s still fucked up. 

Women are able to look at men without men being damaged by being objectified.  So it’s possible. 

And before you start crying “thought crime,” you can’t assume my solution or NoSafeSpace’s solution is imprisonment or punishment.  We just don’t think it’s good.  Complaining that rapists are making it impossible for more “subtle” objectifications to take place is not a good feminist argument.

Comment #272: oldfeminist  on  07/10  at  12:05 AM

Sorry for the messed up quotes there.

Bacopa:

What if your dreaded male gaze stopped short of extended ogling and almost never led to catcalls or harassment? What if almost every man had the good sense to discern when a kind word and eye contact from a woman was probably just an expression of appreciation, and if it was more, to stop far short of stalking or harassment if things didn’t work out? What if women of all ages and sizes could be who they are without being shamed? What if men took the responsibility to address other men when they went too far and thus shape the actions of our peers?

The objectifying male gaze wouldn’t be such a problem then, would it?

I think objectification leads to treating people like objects.  So I think your suggestion is like saying “what if jumping off the roof didn’t lead to falling on the lawn?”

Gracchus:

NoSafeSpace’s alternative was for men to stop looking at (or, in her charming terminology, “eye-fucking”) women they find attractive.  Beyond allowing women to call people out for blatant leering/ogling, there’s not many practical measures that a culture can take to prevent it.

Who’s equating now?  Looking isn’t eye-fucking.  That’s true whether I can tell which one you’re doing or not.  Thinking women are inferior isn’t illegal, or detectable but it is fucked up.  Eye-fucking women isn’t illegal, or detectable, but it’s still fucked up. 

Women are able to look at men without men being damaged by being objectified.  So it’s possible. 

And before you start crying “thought crime,” you can’t assume my solution or NoSafeSpace’s solution is imprisonment or punishment.  We just don’t think it’s good.  Complaining that rapists are making it impossible for more “subtle” objectifications to take place is not a good feminist argument.

Comment #273: oldfeminist  on  07/10  at  12:07 AM

Secular humanism teaches that sexual urges are natural and fertile, and so the female body, as the locus of passion, ought to be displayed and glorified.

[citation needed]

Comment #274: asdf  on  07/10  at  01:00 AM

What bothers me is the phrasing of just about every story about rape and probability.

What you see: “women are more likely to be raped while ...”

What you don’t see: “Men rape ...”

In the national medial eye, women get raped.  It is never “men more likely to rape women ...”

It is almost like it is impossible to think about the active agent committing the active crime.

Comment #275: Ms Kate  on  07/10  at  11:46 AM

I don’t think NoSafeSpace is making an equivalence between rape and eyerape; she used “eyerape” for a reason.  I believe that they are the same kind of thing but not the same thing.

Why do you think that polluting, confusing and watering down the meaning of the word rape will lead to a culture where women are raped less?

Why use the word “eyerape” instead of something that doesn’t have the word rape in it?  Please explain it to me.  Also, please tell me if the right wing’s use of the word “rape” to describe Sarah Palin being asked tough questions bothers you at all.

I don’t see how calling somebody a rapist but not necessarily wanting to imprison them is an improvement.  You want carte blanche to assume all men are rapists?  A “stereotype all you want for free” card?  By reserving the right to label all male overt sexual behavior, not to mention the guy who’s actually just zoning out, not staring at your ass, aren’t you committing an act of rhetorical/linguistic violence?  That’s what Irigaray would say.

If you have a nice pair of shoes on and somebody looks at them covetously, do you call that “eyeburglary”?  What about how I thought Bush should’ve been impeached for 8 years?  Was that “mindtreason”?

Do you distinguish between somebody looking at you and wanting to have consensual sex with you, and somebody wanting to have non-consensual sex with you?  Is it “eyerape” in either case?

When two people make sexually-charged eye contact consensually, do you call that “making eye babies” like the fundamentalists at Bob Jones University do?

When somebody looks at me like they want to beat me up, do I get to call that “eyemurder”, or only “eyebattery”?  I’m serious on this last one.  Every guy has gotten the “I want to kick your ass” look before, and most women too.  It’s about objectifying a person, seeing them as an abstract target of rage instead of a human being.  We live in an “ass-kicking” culture at least as much as we live in a “rape culture”—there are no Ultimate Raping Championship bouts on TV.

Also, go back and read the herstory of this thread.  NoSafeSpace said they felt mind-raped because people on this thread suggested that looking at a woman was OK.  they didn’t say they felt eye raped, ever, much less your silly contraction to “eyerape”.  And they didn’t say that they felt mind raped because of something somebody said to them, or even due to somebody thinking thoughts about them.  They felt “mind-raped” because their beliefs were challenged.  Are you actually cool with that?

Your total lack of reading comprehension is stealing my patience.  You are a mindthief, no?

Comment #276: liminalist  on  07/10  at  02:26 PM

Yeah, Ms Kate, it really does take the focus off the rapist. I also like “domestic violence” instead of saying husbands who beat on their wives and children. Okay, we all know that wives beat up on husbands too, but the numbers just don’t match, and it’s really about obfuscating the fact that a man is committing the violence.

Comment #277: LCforevah  on  07/10  at  02:58 PM

and it’s really about obfuscating the fact that a man is committing the violence.

Or doing the looking. The somewhat nitpicky debate about the veil above I think stems from the basic disagreement about where the responsibility for the looking lies.

Some would say it’s a problem of reaction: the object of the look should take reponsibility for correctly interpreting the looks aimed at her direction, and in the case of finding them inappropriate or unpleasant, take steps to protect herself, e.g. by covering up.

Others (me among them) would claim that it’s a problem of ubiquity: there is enough of a critical mass of inappropriate, objectifying, possessive, non-neutral and threatening looks in our culture that the object of almost any look is within her rights to take offense, and hte onus is on the lookers to modulate their behavious, e.g. by averting their gaze.

Women getting themselves raped and beaten up without the apparent participation of persons of other genders is of course a much more serious problem. Both, though, are symptoms of what is meant by the term “rape culture”. Game shows glorifying rape are optional, and so far blessedly absent from the mainstream - but there are plenty of websites dedicated to clips of “real” or “candid” acts of sexual abuse (I’m not going to link to any of them, so no point snarkily asking for citations - they’re out there to be found with terrifying ease).

The problem with changing the debate around all of these issues is that all too often the mere mention of actual men perpetrating actual rapes is soon derailed into “you think all men are rapists” territory.

Comment #278: MarinaS  on  07/10  at  03:47 PM

The belief that looking at someone else and considering them attractive equals a horrible violation of their person is, itself, a construct of patriarchy and rape culture.

If men look at women, and women look at men, and men look at men, and women look at women, with the thought “Hey, that person’s hot, check them out”, but no one makes catcalls, no one leers, and no one behaves as if their position in society is to be the powerful one who gazes upon with impunity while being at no risk from being gazed at themselves, then there is NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. Sexual objectification of women by men is a problem in our culture *solely* because it is perceived by culture to go only in that direction. Women can only be objects and men can only be subjects.

The truth is, a lot of men seem to wish women would objectify them a hell of a lot more than they do. I have often heard men express the wish that women would look at them with desire the way that men look at women. Now, I’m pretty sure that no man wants to be looked at with desire by someone who he feels is threatening to rape him, whether that person is female or male. The men who express the desire to be looked at with desire are seeing the benefit of being an object—being desirable and seen as attractive to others, being easily able to attract a mate—while not seeing the detriment, precisely because men are not the victim class in rape culture. (Men can most certainly be raped, but they are not defined by culture as potential victims and trained from early childhood to fear it as a realistic, even likely, possibility they must constantly guard against.)

Gay men have no trouble with sexually objectifying each other—they seem to quite enjoy being objectified *and* objectifying other gay men. This is because it goes two ways and they all understand this. No gay man is privileged over other gay men; no gay man is automatically in the predator class while other gay men are in the prey class, by cultural definition. So a gay man sexually objectifying another gay man doesn’t say “I want to rape you” or “I don’t care what your personality is like” or “Your worth to me is solely in your value as an attractive sex object”; it only says “I think you are sexually attractive.”

The whole *reason* men checking women out is bad is because culture privileges the male gaze over the female gaze, making men into a class defined as predatory (regardless of if they are predators or not) and women into a class defined as prey (regardless if they want to be checked out or not.) A woman who *wants* men to look at her sexually is looked down on in part because she’s seen as “easy”... who wants to conquer something that is easily conquerable? A game of domination isn’t any fun if the thing you’re trying to dominate actively wants you to do the thing you perceive as domination and doesn’t see it as domination at all. If your desire to have sex with women is entirely constructed as you defeating the women you have sex with and conquering them, then of course women who actively want *you* and go out of their way to display themselves to you in hopes of attracting you are devaluing what you get out of sex, and you’re actually going to have to rape them to get your fix of domination rather than just having consensual sex that’s coded as rape because you had to fight them verbally to get it.

This is sick. Not the fact that men look at women, but the fact that it happens in the context of a culture that says “men looking at women with desire is an act of domination.” The fact that a woman with a healthy sense of ownership toward her own sexuality, who feels free to gaze on men with desire and will actively display herself sexually to men she wants, is viewed as somehow subhuman because she can’t be dominated just by having sex with her, is sick. The fact that men who enjoy the female gaze and display themselves to women in hopes of attracting them (I’m not talking about flashers, I’m talking about guys who dress nice) are looked down on by other men for being “unmasculine”. The fact that the natural human desire both to look at sexually desirable humans, and to be looked at *as* sexually desirable, has been perverted by patriarchy, rape culture and the construct of sex as something that men do to women that empowers men and disempowers women.

Comment #279: Alara J Rogers  on  07/10  at  04:36 PM

(continued)

I’m not playing along with this. The very statement that a man looking at a woman with desire is equivalent to a violation of her *is* rape culture. You’re playing their game. If a man wants to be able to see attractive women without them fearing that he will rape them, because he doesn’t *want* to rape them and because he’d like them to feel free to objectify him right back, I support that, and saying that a man saying so is equivalent to a man committing rape… is the whole “heterosexual sex is rape”, which eliminates female agency, active female sexuality, passive male sexuality, and denies women not only the right to be the gaze themselves but the right to enjoy being gazed at. it falls into the exact same construct, men do sex to women. Men conquer women through sex. All het sex is rape. No. If I look at a sexy man with desire in my heart and he looks at me the same way and then I fuck him, he did not conquer me. He did not dominate me, he did not win me, he did not defeat me, he did not objectify me. I wanted him, he wanted me, we were mutually involved. I have agency. I can choose to want sex.

 

Now the fact remains that in our culture, many times when men look at women it *is* an act of domination. it *is* intended to put women in our place, to say “you exist to be fuckable”. But talking about wanting to be able to look at attractive women without them feeling the threat of rape from you is the OPPOSITE of that! There’s a huge difference between “I would like to look at attractive women and enjoy what they look like, and have them do the same to me, without the fear created by the fact that assholes of my gender often victimize women sexually, because I’m not like that and that’s not how I want to relate to women”, and “I would like to look at attractive women and make them feel uncomfortable and as if I have no interest in their subjective reality at all because I want to treat women as ambulatory sex toys without sentience.”

The world needs more women looking at men, more women looking at women and men looking at men, more men wanting women to look at them. “None of us should objectify each other” just defeats that. The problem isn’t that humans look with lust in our hearts, it’s that men are taught to look with rape in their hearts, and the many men who don’t do that can’t compensate for the many men who do, so women must assume that most if not all men are looking at them that way. It needs to be two-way and without fear. “Don’t do it at all” goes in the direction of the burqa. Men are not pigs, they’re human. The standard for how humans should act toward one another should be the same for both sexes and it should not repress healthy sexuality.

Comment #280: Alara J Rogers  on  07/10  at  04:37 PM

I’m glad I went back to this long-ass thread, because this:

If I look at a sexy man with desire in my heart and he looks at me the same way and then I fuck him, he did not conquer me. He did not dominate me, he did not win me, he did not defeat me, he did not objectify me. I wanted him, he wanted me, we were mutually involved. I have agency. I can choose to want sex.

is such a fantastic statement of sex-positive awesomeness I want to frame it.  And the rest of your post is great too.

Comment #281: lonespark  on  07/10  at  04:48 PM

Alara, I don’t disagree with anything you say; but it’s important to acknowledge that the devil is in the details. The context you describe is fucked up, wrong, bestial, evil, tragic - and real. And within that context that real people in real situations have to make choices about how they go about their everyday life. How do we get from point A - rape culture - to point B - safe, sex positive culture, without anybody giving an inch and modulating their behaviour in the meantime?

Fighting the choads head-on is not a winning strategy; I think we’re better off starting at the progressive epicenter and working out by expanding a zone of complete safety until it seeps into and informs wider society. A lot has already been achieved in this respect, and all of it was hard won. Not so long ago the suggestion that goosing secretaries is a bad thing to do was seen as ridiculous, extreme, hysterical.

Again, my claim is that we need to share the responsibility for the next phase of transformation between all the people who are actively enagaged in achieving it. For me, that has to mean that the good guys, the men who respect women and want to interact with them as with sentient human agents, could do worse than take a few extra steps towards being unthreatening. Yes, women have a part to play in this as well, but in the progressive spirit of tending to the most vulnerable members of society, the ones who are not brave enough, or too traumatised, to be full-on sex positive with confidence and joy, like you are, need a leg up here.

Comment #282: MarinaS  on  07/10  at  05:18 PM

Alara J Rogers wins the thread.

Comment #283: Seebach  on  07/10  at  07:15 PM

Alright, alright.  No more interesting discussion can be had now, I see.  It’s all devolved into one giant snarkfest.  I’ll leave and let you all get back to pretending to be feminists while Othering women and telling them to take your Othering shit whether they like it or not, mmm kay?

That’s got to be the best “leave in a huff” I’ve seen in a while. I’ve got to say, I’ve got a morbid fascination with internet threads gone haywire like this.

For reference (for those who want to use the pretensious jargon such as “other” as a verb correctly) see wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other

The thing about jargon like that is it’s useful in some contexts but it just becomes a tool to rhetorically bludgeon people with when both sides don’t actually agree with the complex, philosophical meanings behind it. It becomes laughable when you see a statement like the above: “I’ll leave and let you all get back to pretending to be feminists while Othering women”. What does this mean exactly? Especially when directed at a group of people who are at least in part women themselves?

Of course, the earlier disagreement in this thread goes back to a disagreement about what another jargon word means: objectification. Now there are 2 real meanings implied - one is to use another person as you would an object. Full stop. So if I get my groceries checked out by the cashier instead of using the annoying machine thing, I’m objectifying the cashier. This is kind of nonsense, and I think most people can recognise that when you apply it to non-controversial, non-sexual situations. Otherwise how exactly can objectification be bad? We “use” people in all sorts of ways every day, and they use us. It’s called society.

The second meaning is the Kantian one. Using someone as an object is wrong because you aren’t treating them as a moral end unto themselves. If I go to the store and make use of the services of the cashier without talking to them, barely making eye contact, or if I’m being a jerk and urging them to hurry up because I haven’t got all day, that’s objectification because I’m only interested in what I’m getting out of the interaction. If, on the other hand, I recognize that they’re a human being just like me and they’re doing a job, and I try to be nice to them, and understanding of any delays, and try to make the little interaction pleasant for both of us instead of just useful for me, that’s not.

The above analogy may or may not be able to be applied perfectly to some of the hypotheticals brought up in this thread, but I think it’s worth pointing out that to me, objectification holds the second meaning, because the first doesn’t make much sense.

Comment #284: HonestB  on  07/10  at  07:43 PM

Again, my claim is that we need to share the responsibility for the next phase of transformation between all the people who are actively enagaged in achieving it.

This is the sociological version of “we need to leverage our core competencies to achieve synergies.”

Comment #285: Tyro  on  07/11  at  02:07 AM

i can’t read all the comments - this is one of those times when it would be triggering.

actually, to some extent, already was - my fault :( when i first ran across the original article by Goldacre i got very very very angry.

fucking seriously… look, i used to work as a professional Domme. i have watched hundreds, maybe even thousands, of attempts at “picking up” a person. i have seen at least 20 situations where i stepped in because it looked like it was about to be rape.

and i note this: when i dress “provacatively”, the only person to respond to it in a sexual manner is my boyfriend. there were three whole solid years where i worked as a Domme, and went out all the time to clubs, and had no boyfriend, and i almost *never* got hit on at all when i was dressed up - a corset drove men away (not because it looked bad. no, really. i am slightly overweight, and wearing a corset makes me look NOT AT ALL overweight, it totally hides the overweight i have). but when i dressed down - then i had to beat them off with a stick.

seriously - the better dressed i am, the more i am left alone.
i go out dressed up, i am invisible. i go to the gas station i ratty sweats and a tshirt that is 20 years old and hangs to my knees, i have a random stranger trying to grope me while i’m pumping gas.

and this seems to hold true, for a *lot* of the population - there are some men who take a woman dressed “provacatively” as an excuse to be a dick. but most wait until you *aren’t* dressed up.

thinking back… the two times someone tried to date rape me, i was *not* dressed up - the first was jeans/sweater and not ugly, but not at all sexy. the second was after a Prom, *after* i had changed out of that damned dress and into sweats. as in sweat pants and a sweatshirt.

i don’t really know what this means (if it means anything, being that the plural of “anecdote” is *not* “data”) but i *do* know this, from years of mentoring teens and working with rape survivors:
men are going to try and rape whoever the hell they are going to try and rape. there isn’t a *godsdamned* thing *ANYONE* can do to “prevent” themselves from ever being raped short of locking themselves away and never having contact with anyone. jokes about burkha aside, everytime i see a story about how victims bring on themselves, i want to kill reporters.

men who rape, rape because they *can*. they don’t see their victim as someone who has the goddamn *right* to not have sex with them. period. they *CAN*
and they CAN because of stories like this shit. because men are told, from every side, that “they can’t control themselves”, “that the sight of X inflames them”, that it isn’t THEIR fault that some girl couldn’t not flaunt her assets.
i have manymanymanytoomany rape victims. they have been fat girls, skinny girls, “ugly” girls, dorky girls, immature girls, overmature girls, i have seen mothers who would make June Cleaver jealous, i have seen freaking *GRANDMOTHERS IN THEIR 60’S* who walk in and have just been raped. i once tried to help a 65-year-old woman who fucking step-grandson (her son’s stepson) tried to rape her. and laughed and told her how no one would believe her, because she was old and dried up and ugly, but she still had a pussy and he could still get some use out of it.
that grandmother went to jail for child abuse, because she brained her 17-year-old step-grandson, who tried to rape her, with a -  i-shit-you-not - a rolling pin.

i sometimes *want* to believe that there is some vast patriarchy-conspiracy - that there are actual *villians* who we can point to, blame, and remove to fix it.

sigh.

Comment #286: denelian  on  07/11  at  03:55 AM

This is the sociological version of “we need to leverage our core competencies to achieve synergies.”

And that is the Naughties version of “political correctness run mad”.

Comment #287: MarinaS  on  07/11  at  02:25 PM
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