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Next entry: I Want Pie For My Piehole Previous entry: Tre Arrow pleads guilty

If we just start calling it “foosnoozle”, then we can declare there’s no more cancer

ChoadsFeminism

The wingnut version of a Zen koan: “If a woman is beaten or raped, but shuts up about it and doesn’t tell anyone, did it really happen?”  I mean, no one but the abuser knows about it, right?  So it’s like it didn’t happen, right?  Sure, you weenie liberals might say the victim knows about it, but that’s because you’re liberals and you just love victims, to the degree that you’re willing to believe that if a woman suffers, it matters even if she doesn’t bother anyone with her bitching and moaning about it. 

If that sounds extreme, well explain to me how else we’re supposed to take this column by Dennis Prager.

If you want to understand the negative impact of feminism on women (and men) and, by extension, the destructive effects of liberal teachers, Democratic politics and liberal news media on African-Americans, here is Katie Couric last week on the CBS Evening News…

 

Every time I hear this whine, I want to ask, what form of victimizing do wingnuts think is legitimate?  Is rape the right thing to do?  Is beating your wife A-OK?  Because those are the primary forms of violence against women that feminists agitate against, “creating” victims that apparently wouldn’t be victims if they shut up about it.


Interestingly, these are the same assholes who think a brainless ball of cells that actually can’t speak up, perceive anything, or suffer is a “victim”.  Tree stumps you kick in frustration probably count more as victims than women who actually suffer from men’s abuse.

“A new study on teens and sexual harassment should give every parent pause.

“Most teenage girls report they’ve been sexually harassed. ... In a study that appeared in the journal Child Development, 90 percent of teen girls say they’ve been harassed at least once.”

Millions of American parents and their daughters were told on one of the most widely watched evening news reports that nine out of every 10 American girls aged 12 to 18 are sexually harassed.

The solution to the problem, therefore, is for teenage girls to realize they’re second class citizens and not upset first class citizens like Prager with their silly complaints.  Weirdly, the idea that if the parents didn’t know, it didn’t happen, is an idea that most teenagers are down with a good deal of the time. It’s those occasions that I suspect that Prager thinks that the kids should be required to upset their parents.  For instance, many a pregnant teenage girl, particularly with abusive parents (of course, if she declares the bruises were from stump-kicking, then the abuse really didn’t happen), would love to have the right to get an abortion without telling her parents, making the whole incident go away without ever really having happened, because unless a man validates it, it’s not real.  But I bet Prager wouldn’t extend her the right to hide an abortion even as she demands that she pretends she’s not getting sexually harassed at school.

Prager reads the report, and concludes that indeed, sexual harassment will disappear as long as women learn to shut up and take it without bitching about it.

First, “The study found that girls who had a better understanding of feminism were more likely to recognize sexual harassment.”

There is no question that this is true. Girls subjected to feminist indoctrination are undoubtedly more likely to interpret innocuous behavior as sexual harassment.

Never trust a man who wants you to believe goosing or waggling his dick at you is “innocuous behavior”.  I’m serious.  I wonder how many times Prager would let a woman he actually loves be subjected to behavior he considers “innocuous” when it’s used to intimidate women he thinks deserve to be abused for being uppity.  My guess is not a whole lot. 

He then puffs up the column with some off-topic ranting about how women should be grateful that we’re permitted to read, and in turn, we should do him the favor of letting a little rape and sexual abuse slide here and there.  After all, we wouldn’t want the vote taken away, would we?  So lay on your back and think of Susan B. Anthony until it’s over.

Second, “sexual harassment” is so all-inclusive as to be largely meaningless: “sexist comments about their academic abilities, sexist comments about their athletic abilities unwanted romantic attention, demeaning gender-related comments, teasing based on their appearance, and unwanted physical contact.”

If a girls bra is snapped in elementary or high school; if a girl is told she should learn to throw a ball “like a guy does”; if a boy pursues a girl and fails in his pursuit—these are all instances of sexism and sexual harassment.

I’m trying to imagine his reaction if a group of high school girls decided to follow the boys around, squeezing their balls really hard until it hurt, and then running around telling everyone that the dicks then fondled have been determined to be tiny.  I somehow doubt he’d think that it was kosher.

And “if a boy pursues a girl and fails in his pursuit” is how he defines “unwanted physical contact.”  Pretending that groping random women is a come-on is, once again, not something that I’d believe he’d stick with if he saw it happening to his mother.  But he wants your daughter to pretend the guy who grabbed her ass in the hallway for the entertainment of his fellows was just an inept lover.  Not in my experience.  Really, Prager’s opinion of teenage boys is perilously low if he thinks they’re this stupid.  Even in the fumbling days of adolescence, boys don’t think that assaulting and humiliating girls is the best way to get those girls to like you. They’re not dumb.  They assault and humiliate—-get this—-because they want their victims to be hurt and humiliated.  Because it makes the assailant feel powerful and important. I suspect that while arguing this point, Prager would lie about it, but otherwise he’d probably happily admit that people enjoy feeling powerful for its own sake. 

What Prager doesn’t argue, and what he needs to be able to prove for his essay to be anything but arguing that the problem with harassment and assault is that women complain about it, is a shred of evidence that girls’ reactions to being sexually harassed differ greatly if they don’t have a name for it.  And there’s no reason to think that.  I didn’t know to call sexual harassment “sexual harassment” when it happened, but I knew that I hated it.  I just called it “bullying”.  Girls don’t enjoy having teenage boys prove their masculinity by intimidating and assaulting the girls.  His argument is literally one of semantics.  He might as well be saying that you can’t be sexually harassed if you speak a non-English language because you’ll use whatever your native tongue’s phrase is for it.  And that the tree didn’t fall in the forest if you described it as “toppling”. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 04:54 PM • (36) Comments

I was in a corporate training seminar last year where among the interminable training videos on recognizing sexual harassment, we had to watch some dipshit video from Prager telling everyone they should be nice to each other. (Julia Sweeney was in it, too. I hope she was well paid.) I was gagging the whole time, although it was in a pretty red-state crowd so I tried to keep the vomit in.
I can’t believe that a professional scold like Prager is allowed to get away with declaring that sexual harassment isn’t a problem. OK, I can believe it given the failing upward nature of the media, but damn. NINETY PERCENT of teenaged women are being treated in a subhuman way and Mr. Be-Nice-To-Each-Other thinks that they just need to shut the fuck up. I want those ten minutes of my life back.

Comment #1: histrogeek  on  06/03  at  05:48 PM

Shorter Prager: “I am an asshole, and everybody knows it, which sucks for me. Therefore I demand that the definition of ‘asshole’ be radically changed such that it now applies to any women who refuses to accept being humiliated. I will then no longer be distinguishable as an asshole, even though I am still intent on acting like one.”

Shorter Amanda, and most of the intelligent world: “Sorry, Dennis. Na Ga Ha Pun.”

Comment #2: Captain Goto  on  06/03  at  05:52 PM

The strange irony of this is anyone who remembers high school knows that sexually harassing girls was a way to signal a) to the victim that she is unattractive and b) to let other guys know that you’re conforming with the standards set by them on who is ugly and needs to be harassed and hated on.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/03  at  05:57 PM

Second, “sexual harassment” is so all-inclusive as to be largely meaningless: “sexist comments about their academic abilities, sexist comments about their athletic abilities unwanted romantic attention, demeaning gender-related comments, teasing based on their appearance, and unwanted physical contact.”

How is Dennis Prager able to dress himself in the morning? 

I would be willing to concede that “you throw like a girl” is not sexual harrassment (let’s face it, all girls throw like girls; many of them throw a lot better than I ever could, but they still throw like girls).
But the idea that the term “sexual harrassment” is largely meaningless even if it gets stretched now and then?  Seriously, how can someone be stupid enough to believe that?

His argument is literally one of semantics.

It’s also an example of the old Republican favorite:  linguistic sleight-of-hand.  “Why do people get bent out of shape about little things like bra-snapping, girly-throw-calling, [lowers voice to mumble] and unwanted groping? [voice returns to normal]  None of that stuff really matters, right?  RIGHT?”

Comment #4: Notorious P.A.T.  on  06/03  at  06:00 PM

Shorter Prager: “I am an asshole, and everybody knows it”

Everyone except Dennis Prager.

Comment #5: Notorious P.A.T.  on  06/03  at  06:02 PM

I would be willing to concede that “you throw like a girl” is not sexual harassment

I would probably agree that it isn’t sexual, but it is certainly sexist. And that’s kind of interesting, isn’t it? It would seem Dennis Prager doesn’t know the difference.

Comment #6: Charlie  on  06/03  at  10:15 PM

Not that I’m looking to defending Prager, but when he says “if a boy pursues a girl and fails in his pursuit” he’s probably referring to the mention of “unwanted romantic attention” rather than that of “unwanted physical contact”. Still, it’s a disgusting article, and everything else you say is completely correct.

Comment #7: Alexander  on  06/03  at  10:27 PM

Well, and there’s no reason to think he didn’t pull his examples out of his ass, where everything else he thinks of comes from.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/03  at  10:27 PM

And third, “Latina and Asian American girls reported less sexual harassment than the other girls who participated in the study.” One wonders whether this is one reason increasing numbers of American men seek Latina and Asian American women for marriage. Women who have been less influenced by feminism probably appreciate men more.

wow wow wow wow wow

Where to begin? There is so much racism, sexism, white privilege, chauvinism, and anti-feminism wrapped together in this one excerpt that it is hard to fathom someone writing it with a straight face. Surely this article is a parody, yes?

No. I read the comments to Prager’s piece. What a bunch of whiney boys.

Comment #9: Kevin Moore  on  06/03  at  10:35 PM

If a girls bra is snapped in elementary or high school; if a girl is told she should learn to throw a ball “like a guy does”; if a boy pursues a girl and fails in his pursuit—these are all instances of sexism and sexual harassment.

I failed high school algebra because the guy who sat behind me kept snapping my bra strap and I was too embarrassed to tell the teacher.  Turns out it’s pretty hard to concentrate on math when you keep wondering when the asshole behind you is going to start grabbing at your clothing during class time.

Fuck you, Dennis Prager.

(I would say “fuck you” to the guy, too, but he managed to get himself killed in a car accident in our senior year.  I was, um, not quite as upset as my classmates, to say the least.)

Comment #10: Mnemosyne  on  06/03  at  10:58 PM

Mnemosyne: Congratulations on your restraint in not going to the funeral home, reaching into this guy’s coffin, and snapping his underwear.

(Um, you did restrain yourself from doing that, right?)

Comment #11: Bitter Scribe  on  06/03  at  11:13 PM

“How is Dennis Prager able to dress himself in the morning?”

That’s what his body servant is for…

“I failed high school algebra because the guy who sat behind me kept snapping my bra strap and I was too embarrassed to tell the teacher.”

Some punk in a science class with my daughter started a bunch of crap.  And it kept getting worse.  We were finally able to get the school to step up, and the teacher felt bad enough to basically teach her one-on-one during other open time periods so she wouldn’t have to deal with the punk (who somehow avoided getting tossed from school) at all.

I was naive enough to assume that the school - as an institution of the current era - would have some sort of “zero tolerance” policy about that kind of thing - and was shocked to find out just how anemic their response was.

Having been educated about sexual harassment on a regular basis in my job for the last 20-years or so, I guess I expected that some of these ideas would penetrate into the rest of society.

But I see that assholes like Prager and his wingnut buddies are trying to do everything possible to drag gender relations back 25/50/100/500-years or more.  Cool!

Now if my daughter was the harasser, instead of the harassee, I wonder what the school’s reaction would have been?  And what would have happened to the punkass (sorry Marc) is he was making lewd sexual comment to another boy instead of a girl?...

Comment #12: MikeEss  on  06/03  at  11:41 PM

And as for this ridiculous claim that “feminist indoctrination” has spawned a generation of women/girls who, according to this Sprager or whatever his name is, instantly identify as ‘victims’, I say…
WHATEVER!
When stuff like this happened to me when I was younger, I didn’t think to myself, “now, this appears to be something akin to this concept of sexual harrassment that we have been told about. Gee, better start feeling all victim-like and so forth”.  I felt mad, and thought what dicks these people were, and the lil’ feminist inside me stomped its foot.

Comment #13: diana prince  on  06/04  at  12:53 AM

What a nasty article and what a nasty man.

Comment #14: Michael McLawhorn  on  06/04  at  01:26 AM

when he says “if a boy pursues a girl and fails in his pursuit” he’s probably referring to the mention of “unwanted romantic attention” rather than that of “unwanted physical contact”.

Yeah, I would think so too.  In a way I find that one kind of the most interesting—maybe because I’m re-reading The Gift of Fear and the part about date stalking, about how boys are socialized to be persistent with girls and girls are socialized to “let him down easy” and not say no flat-out, even when they really mean it. 

I can think of “unwanted romantic attention” that would have freaked me out a lot more than the occasional gropings I did deal with in high school.  People who won’t take no for an answer are harassers.  Prager sucks.

Comment #15: Elinor  on  06/04  at  01:39 AM

I guess Prager doesn’t have clear memories of grade school through high school.  I find 90% totally plausible.  I wonder how 10% of adolescent girls make it through without having been at least verbally sexually harassed.

Comment #16: NBarnes  on  06/04  at  02:45 AM

I didn’t know to call sexual harassment “sexual harassment” when it happened, but I knew that I hated it.  I just called it “bullying”.

So did I, probably because at least half of what I dealt with was your more classic bullying of kids who don’t fit in as opposed to explicitly sexual bullying, though there was some of that, too.

But I’m pulling this out because there is this meme that shows up a lot anywhere you have a lot of trolls, like feministing or broadsheet, after posts that describe some horrific thing done to some woman. These commenters are all insisting that whatever it was happened because there are bad people in the world, but not because some men are bad to women, and here are these whining feminists trying to make everything about them and their special womany victimhood, and HOW DARE THEY try to say that this is representative of misogyny and bad things happen to men too and on and on. It seems there is an element of that to Prager’s argument - snapping bras isn’t sexual harrassment, wedgies hurt way more.

And I know they are full of shit, but I have a hard time articulating why. I guess in my own head, it’s a “you know it when you see it” kind of thing - I have a pretty good sense of when someone is just an asshole and when they are being an asshole because they have a problem with women - but I could use an assist in articulating why it’s worse to be hated on for something like your sex (or your race) than just hated on generally.

Comment #17: chingona  on  06/04  at  03:37 AM

And third, “Latina and Asian American girls reported less sexual harassment than the other girls who participated in the study.” One wonders whether this is one reason increasing numbers of American men seek Latina and Asian American women for marriage.

So wait, Prager thinks than men tend to choose wives based on their unwillingness to report abuse…but it’s feminists who hate men? Dude, what the fuck? Seriously, that is messed up.

Comment #18: Sophist FCD  on  06/04  at  05:05 AM

I’m a guy, so I never had to deal with bra-snapping, but that sounds like something that would fucking HURT, especially if it’s done repeatedly.
I also never dealt with sexual harrassment (unless being called “Faggot” every day counts) but I did experience in-class bullying though, and like Mnemosyne, was afraid to report it: some guys who sat in back of me used to heat quarters with a cigarette lighter and drop them on my neck. I’d come home with burn marks. The teacher didn’t seem to notice the first few weeks, but eventually moved me to a different seat in the front row. I never understood why he didn’t move the assholes to the front row, or confiscate the lighter. Which brings me to two questions: How can anyone enjoy inflicting pain on another person (at one point, when the teacher was out of the room, I snapped and just asked, “Why do you keep doing this?” which was met with giggling, not just from them, but other kids as well)?
The other question is, how can teachers be so fucking clueless? How do you not notice something going on right in front of you? How do you not notice some asshole snapping a girl’s bra, or burning somebody? Even if you don’t see the actual incident, wouldn’t you notice the reactions of the kids involved? It’s not like I was all smiling and happy, and I’m guessing the Mnemosyne didn’t LOOK happy to be stuck sitting in front of that jackass.

Comment #19: Bill S  on  06/04  at  07:46 AM

I agree, an atrocious piece of trying to justify bad behavior by men and chiding those uppity women for not just sucking it up and putting up with it.  BUT, it’s the stupid townhall site…full of very slanted and mostly badly written screeds put up by individuals with axes to grind (to carry on the tree/forest theme).  I bet this guy is a) middle-aged, b) not really down with the ladies, in the sense of having a close FRIENDSHIP with female people who are not his wife/girlfriend/mistress/lust object.  Usually men who have sisters or female friends who they are close to can empathize to the point where they are made uncomfortable to angered by the obvious treatment of women in their lives.

Comment #20: Kaija  on  06/04  at  08:00 AM

The other question is, how can teachers be so fucking clueless? How do you not notice something going on right in front of you? How do you not notice some asshole snapping a girl’s bra, or burning somebody? Even if you don’t see the actual incident, wouldn’t you notice the reactions of the kids involved?

Oh, but they do notice. It’s just that bullying is considered acceptable in our society, from top to bottom. If I may refer you to Arthur Silber; Choosing Sides (III): Let the Victims Speak:

“As a former teacher in the New York City school system, I know how reluctant school officials often are to take definitive action in such circumstances. Yet, when a victim explodes or acts out in unacceptable ways, these same officials are shocked and indignant.”

Focus on the critical sentence: “Yet, when a victim explodes or acts out in unacceptable ways, these same officials are shocked and indignant.

What exactly are these “unacceptable ways” of exploding or acting out? Who decided they were “unacceptable”? Why is it that “reluctant school officials” will not “take definitive action” against the bullies—thus tacitly conceding that the bullying itself is not all that “unacceptable”—while the same officials are “shocked and indignant” when the victim protests too strongly?

This pattern, and certain of its origins, will be found throughout history, in every culture around the world. The pattern is a simple and deadly one: the oppressor—that is, those who are in the superior position, whether they are parents, school officials, or the government, or in a superior position merely by virtue of physical strength—may inflict bodily harm and/or grievous, lifelong emotional and psychological injury, but the victim may only protest within the limits set by the oppressor himself. The oppressor will determine those forms of protest by the victim that are “acceptable.”

[...]

Think about this very carefully for a moment. The oppressor may inflict unimaginable cruelties on innocent victims—but the victims may only protest in ways which the oppressor deems “acceptable.” The profound injustice is obvious, but not in itself remarkable or unexpected: this is how oppression operates. But ask yourself about the deeper reason for the prohibition. This is of the greatest importance: the victims may only protest within a constricted range of “permissible” behavior because, when they exceed the prescribed limits, they make the oppressors too uncomfortable. They force the oppressors to confront the nature of what they, the oppressors, have done in ways that the oppressors do not choose to face.

Apologies for the long quote, but I think it’s necessary.

Comment #21: Dunc  on  06/04  at  08:50 AM

Slightly ot, but diana prince, I love the phrase “the lil’ feminist inside me stomped its foot.”  That’s what I want my girls to do.

And bra-snapping is not okay.  It’s not something to “just get over”.  Telling girls to shut up about it won’t make it okay. 

Threatening to marry only brown submissive women as “punishment” ain’t such a big threat either, b/c who would want to be married to those assholes anyway?  Certainly not feminists who think their worth is inherent and not dependent on a man.

Comment #22: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/04  at  08:50 AM

“Threatening to marry only brown submissive women as “punishment” ain’t such a big threat either, b/c who would want to be married to those assholes anyway?”

...not to mention that there are a hell of a lot of “brown submissive women” who will happily kick their asses should these assholes marry them and bring them home.

While there are submissive women in any culture, often they are far more complex, and have a far stronger survival instinct than they may appear to have on the surface.

And thank god for it.  The last days of the domineering “I’m a man, dammit, it’s my right!” asshole who expects to be surrounded by submissive females can’t come soon enough…

Comment #23: MikeEss  on  06/04  at  09:38 AM

Maybe if I’d had a better understanding of feminism when I was 16, I would have known how to react to the dicksmack who harrassed me constantly at my first job.  Of course, since I was a “good girl” and didn’t want to start any trouble, I never did anything about it.  Prager is a fucking asshole.

Comment #24: Kristin  on  06/04  at  10:46 AM

I was going to say, I don’t think I was sexually harassed when I was in high school, but then I remembered the time some boy kept poking me in the head with the leg of his stuffed dog (?!) that he pretended was its penis (I’m so lucky though—told my parents, and that was the last day I rode the bus; they took me seriously).  Oh, and the time some boy was making sexist jokes during study hall, when I told him to stop and he didn’t, I complained and he ended up having to meet with the principal about it.  I don’t know if he was punished, but at least it was acknowledged.  I remember thinking it was obvious that such behaviors would be taken seriously, because of how seriously they bothered me, but now I feel lucky that they were.

Comment #25: jayne  on  06/04  at  11:08 AM

The comments are making me hate humanity:

You see no evidence of the emasculation of men? I have a suggestion. Go to the fragrance counter at any department store and try finding a masculine fragrance. Gone are the earthy and musky scents. Men today are being marketed citrus and flowers.

Comment #26: AJB  on  06/04  at  11:43 AM

Ho-lee-shit (emphasis mine):

Do all women deserve respect? I’m not sure that a woman who dresses like a prostitute deserves it. As Dr. Laura says, you shouldn’t advertise your body if it’s not for sale. Radical feminists certainly don’t deserve respect just because they’re women. That would contradict their whole ideology.

Comment #27: AJB  on  06/04  at  11:45 AM

“You see no evidence of the emasculation of men? I have a suggestion. Go to the fragrance counter at any department store and try finding a masculine fragrance. Gone are the earthy and musky scents. Men today are being marketed citrus and flowers.:

Hahahahlahlahahaha!

Yeah!  Society is making men less manly by not giving them the appropriate scented oils and perfumed cosmetics!  We real men demand better fragrant misters to use whilst making our toilet!

Comment #28: Notorious P.A.T.  on  06/04  at  12:09 PM

You see no evidence of the emasculation of men? I have a suggestion. Go to the fragrance counter at any department store and try finding a masculine fragrance. Gone are the earthy and musky scents. Men today are being marketed citrus and flowers.

Isn’t it funny how the reason there are no children’s movies about female characters is that the customers don’t like it, so the market wisely doesn’t provide it, but the reason there’s no nasty-ass stanky musk-based cologne for men anymore is that feminism is oppressing the market and emasculating men?

Maybe the reason is that men figured out women don’t actually *like* men to smell like toxic chemical spills.

Personally I think they should make a scent for men based on chocolate. I mean, what woman doesn’t love chocolate? grin

Comment #29: Alara Rogers  on  06/04  at  12:21 PM

Google bomb time:

Bra-snapping apologist

Comment #30: AJB  on  06/04  at  12:25 PM

I for one would like to offer a word of THANKS to Mr. Prager for his wonderful article.  Seriously, he has my gratitude.

It’s been a long time since I have seen so many sexist and racist attitudes expressed so concisely.  He covers so much repugnant ground in such a relatively short piece of writing that it’s literally breathtaking.

I’ve seen things written by Cal Thomas where I had to read all the way to the third or even the fourth paragraph before I found something offensive.

Mr. Prager’s piece reminds me of everything I hate about sexism, racism, conservatism, and so much more, without unduly wasting my time.  Why lose 2 hours of my life watching a Michael Moore movie when simply reading Prager’s one column gets me all revved up?

Comment #31: ummeli  on  06/04  at  01:13 PM

“You’re a victim” is the new “Shut the fuck up, bitch.”

Comment #32: keshmeshi  on  06/04  at  02:00 PM

You see no evidence of the emasculation of men? I have a suggestion. Go to the fragrance counter at any department store and try finding a masculine fragrance. Gone are the earthy and musky scents. Men today are being marketed citrus and flowers.

I know I don’t feel like a Real Man™ unless I smell like either a deer’s taint-gland or a 200 year old floor board.

Comment #33: The Other Will  on  06/04  at  02:07 PM

How can anyone enjoy inflicting pain on another person

Its hard to explain.  It really is.  Maybe its chemical.

Have you really never felt it?

Comment #34: libarbarian  on  06/06  at  04:52 PM

Have you really never felt it?
Not until I learned that there are people like Dennis Prager, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Loofa Falafelovich, William Kristol, Dick Cheney…. Sometimes, late at night, or early in the morning while reading my newspaper, I do feel like inflicting some pain on those assholes.

a masculine fragrance
Isn’t that one of them oxymoron things? You know, like military intelligence or an honest Republican…

Comment #35: arminius  on  06/07  at  04:30 PM

Someone please hit Mr. Prager HARD over the head with a history of perfumery in Europe and a copy of Nancy Mitford’s “The Sun King.”  I don’t know what the heck this idiot is babbling about (except that, like usual, he shows he has no knowledge of anything.)

Comment #36: grumpy realist  on  06/10  at  12:57 AM
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