Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Our Embarrassing White People Are In No Way Associated With That Embarrassing Black Man Previous entry: That Christian love you hear so much about

If you don’t like a catch-22, you shouldn’t go around being female

CrimeFeminism

A quick story for you all.  A woman and a man meet up on Facebook/at a party/on an online dating site, and they feel a potential spark.  So they agree to go out on a date.  They meet for happy hour at a bar somewhere near both their homes.  They expect only to hang out for a couple of hours, but they find they have so much to talk about and they’re having a good time.  They agree to go back to one of their places for a little more privacy, maybe have another drink and talk some more.  Sexual tension hangs in the air as they retreat inside, full of smiles and good time vibes. 

Where are they a year and a half later?  A couple of potential options:

A) He’s sitting at the defense stand hearing the jury read a verdict of not guilty.  His family cheers while her family closes in around her protectively.  Afterwards, jurors who are interviewed say, “Well, she should have known that could happen if she just went home with a man, after all that flirting with him.  He’s no saint, but she had it coming.”

B) She and he are sitting beaming at the table listening to their family members take turns toasting them.  Their wedding is tomorrow, and they couldn’t be more excited.  “Good thing,” a slightly tipsy toaster says to the bride, “That you agreed to go on that date with him.  We thought you’d never get married!” 

If you’re intellectually honest, you know both of these results are likely, and the latter is not only as likely but probably more likely than the former one.  There’s a bit of polite fiction about premarital sex—-not that it doesn’t happen, but we don’t discuss it in detail around relatives—-but all in all, women dating, flirting, and sleeping with men is considered a normal, healthy way to meet people, fall in love, and yes, even find someone to marry, if you’re into that sort of thing.  We know that the most common thing that happens is that you date someone, sleep with them, and it doesn’t work out.  But sometimes it does, so we keep plugging.  But sometimes someone rapes someone else, and then all of a sudden people start acting like going out with men and allowing yourself to be alone with them—-and god forbid, floating the possibility of having sex with them!—-is outrageous behavior and anyone who engages in it should expect nothing short of being raped and possibly beaten severely. 

I bring this up, because the BBC released a survey recording how many people, women especially, slide into “she was asking for it” territory.  I posted on this at XX Factor, trying to point out that it’s statistically impossible for women who blame rape victims to have not done the exact same thing.  71% of British women surveyed said you bear “some” responsibility for getting raped if you got in bed with a guy without checking to see if he was a rapist first.  Have 71% of British women refrained from not only getting alone with a man, but getting in bed with him?  Have 1/3 never been alone with a man on a date, the number who said that behavior makes it your fault?  Not at all.  Many of the people surveyed admitted to doing the very things they think make you eligible for rape.  But I doubt very many of them would think they bear even some responsibility should it happen.  Like I said, we all make exceptions for ourselves.  That’s why I’ve always joked that a slut is a woman who has sex with two more people than you.

Naturally, this brought out the trolls at XX Factor.

Yet, a woman gets INTO BED with a guy and is raped and should accept zero responsibility? I am sorry, we don’t live in the fifties anymore and while the dirtbag should absolutely be punished, it’s laughable to believe that a woman can act like a slut and then at the last second say “no” and believe that every guy is going to put his dick back into his pants and be a gentlemen.

And:

Women do not best protect ourselves by pretending that rape is like a lightning strike out of a clear blue sky: Especially where simple rape (‘acquaintance rape’) is concerned, this is not normally an unpredictable or unpreventable event.

Referring to the above story, then, be forewarned, ladies: If you want to date, fall in love, and probably marry one day, it’s your fault if someone rapes you.  You can’t say you weren’t warned.  If you go to bed with a guy expecting missionary position, and instead he holds you down and anally rapes you while you scream, well, you signed up for that, too, it seems.

Of course, people don’t connect the dots, which is why they engage in blatant misogyny without realizing that’s what they are in fact doing.  There’s just enough shaming of female sexuality out there that it’s easy to back-rationalize after the rape that the choice to try to get some privacy and make out with someone was stupid.  But then again, it’s easy to say it was the smartest thing you’ve ever done, if it leads to true love.  (And there’s the third, most common option, which is that it doesn’t matter much in the long run one way or another.)  We’re told you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find the prince.  But if we find a rapist doing that, then it’s our faults for looking. 

And that’s not even touching the fact that women are told to treat all men like rapists, and then are called man-hating bitches if we take that advice and shove men off, refuse to speak to them, and carefully make sure never to be alone with them.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:12 PM • (140) Comments

To make it clear, restricting women’s freedom to date who they please is not the answer.  Women get raped in those societies, too, probably as often, if under different circumstances.  Under any cultural regime where women are accorded blame for not being able to prevent rape, rapists will figure out what the circumstances are where women get blamed, and they’ll make those circumstances happen.  The only real solution to rape is to stop policing women, and start actually treating rape like a crime.

Comment #1: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/16  at  06:49 PM

It’s all about: that won’t happen to ME!

Women superstitiously praying against their own behavior, in hope that—in their case— it won’t lead to rape.

For the men, that their pressuring women into sex, hell, that ain’t rape!

So victim-blaming as a cry to the heavens that: it won’t happen to me!

Comment #2: judybrowni  on  02/16  at  07:00 PM

There is no “she was asking for it” conduct short of, well, actually asking for it.

Comment #3: rea  on  02/16  at  07:01 PM

So, behave as if all men are rapist, or you’ll be responsible if you’re raped?  That must be a lovely philosophy to live by while dating.

Comment #4: D  on  02/16  at  07:01 PM

So, behave as if all men are rapist, or you’ll be responsible if you’re raped?

Yeah—note that this is a (perhaps the) classic example of how the patriarchy demeans men as well as women.

Comment #5: rea  on  02/16  at  07:08 PM

After making out with a date on my couch on the third date, I changed my mind and asked him to go home, politely.

Which resulted in a not-so-veiled threat from the foot taller and 50 pounds heavier date:

“Hey, I’m being a nice guy here, I could rape you.” “Maybe you could,” I replied. “But I have a drawer full of knives in the kitchen, and I would knife you. And I know where you live and I know where you work.”

Both of us middle-class, professional, white people, and it came down to that: I had to protect myself with another threat.

I told that story later and was chided by another man who felt it wasn’t “nice” to out the guy for the rape threat.

You can’t win for losing if you’re a woman: say no, get threatened with rape. Defend yourself with a knife—oh, you know how that would have gone, don’t you? And you’re also supposed to keep the guy’s dirty secret, or you’re at fault again.

Comment #6: judybrowni  on  02/16  at  07:10 PM

There is no “she was asking for it” conduct short of, well, actually asking for it.

In which case, it’s not rape then is it?  So it’s impossible for women to be asking to be raped.

Comment #7: BadKitty  on  02/16  at  07:11 PM

The interesting coda to the threatened rape: the guy asked me out again years later.

Yeah, right.

Comment #8: judybrowni  on  02/16  at  07:12 PM

I’ve read that women in veiled countries are also accused similarly: “No man would attack a woman in modest, religious dress!”

Comment #9: judybrowni  on  02/16  at  07:14 PM

If you treat all men like rapists, you’re a man-hating bitch. 

Actually, you don’t get to win.  It’s in the rules, if you read them.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/16  at  07:15 PM

Women in veiled countries are also accused “You must have done/said something.” By their relatives, friends and the authorities.

Comment #11: judybrowni  on  02/16  at  07:16 PM

I also read something about the early days of the Israeli as a new country, in which it came up at a political meeting that there had been a rash of rapes committed, and the men in the room suggested that there be a curfew imposed on women, to “protect” those Israeli women.

“But since it’s the men who are committing the crime of rape,” replied Golda Meir, “then it would make more sense to propose a curfew for men.”

That ended talk of a curfew.

Comment #12: judybrowni  on  02/16  at  07:21 PM

“It’s all about: that won’t happen to ME!”

Correction, it’s also about: that didn’t happen to ME!

It’s also often ends up being a fucked up coping mechanism because the slut-shame response is triggered whenever there’s a rape victim, so when women first get raped, especially if it isn’t some nice knocked out by drugs stranger rape while a virgin type story their first instinct is to rewrite the events to fault themselves and downgrade the incident from rape to bad sex so that they weren’t “really traumatized” by it, it’s just them being silly and having random flashbacks and sexual issues because they are just being so very silly.

My partner did this with the several rape attempts and rapes she suffered at the hands of boyfriends and ex-boyfriends, but especially the one that messed her up the most where she “did everything right” (saying no, removing herself from the room, disconnecting all and any sexual contact) and he followed her into the kitchen, reached down her pants and started finger raping her as she tried to fight him off. For years she had it rewritten as her seducing this upstanding person in a relationship and blamed herself because she kissed him at the end (because he was using it all as a game where he wasn’t really cheating on his partner if he never kissed anyone at the party on the lips) to cause him to balk enough to disentangle herself and escape into an area where she had an actual escape route.

I think it’s how the two mix together. A woman is a slut if she got herself raped, because then there is something a woman can do to avoid rape and this frightening loss of self and autonomy can be avoided by ME if I just do everything right. And so my rape wasn’t really a rape because otherwise I didn’t really avoid it, it really can’t be avoided by “being better” and it can happen at any time and that traumatizing event or something worse can still happen.

And men are easy to recruit because a lack of education about sex, how to approach it, the primacy of consent, how to respond to a partner’s needs and an overeducation of misogyny (hey, you know what’s really manly, fucking her places she doesn’t want to be fucked or the number of girls you conquer method or consent be damned) means they often have at least one “well, we were drunk, it doesn’t count” story in their past that they don’t want to have to approach on any real level. And besides, caring about women makes you gay.

But yeah, it definitely needs to be destroyed inch by inch because as long as women and men are willing to wipe it all under the rug and pretend like women not only have agency but sole agency in their rapes, men will continue to rape and women will continue to be at high risk of being raped.

Comment #13: Cerberus  on  02/16  at  07:28 PM

I don’t quite understand how one determines whether or not the man they’re with is a rapist. Is there a card in the wallet, or a special underwear that gives it away?

Comment #14: Zyla  on  02/16  at  07:34 PM

“It’s also about ‘That didnt’ happen to ME!’”

Couldn’t agree more, yes, that’s the other component of the victim-blaming, including self-blame.

Comment #15: judybrowni  on  02/16  at  07:35 PM

It’s all about: that won’t happen to ME!

Of course not!  I’m not like that dirty SLUT over there!

I don’t want to think about how many juries have let rapists off the hook by this logic.

the guy asked me out again years later.

Damn, that’s messed up.

Comment #16: Sour Kraut  on  02/16  at  07:35 PM

I am so thankful that I read blogs like this one and have the framework in my mind to not blame myself when something like this happens. When I was sexually assaulted on a first date, I instantly thought of conversations like this, and that circumvented the slut-shaming process pretty much entirely.

Discussions like this one make a difference.

Comment #17: Dymphna  on  02/16  at  07:37 PM

This should have known it was coming meme is one of the dumbest things when one considers it for more than a second. Does it necessarily presume that every man is a rapist if given the chance? That some how this woman is able to convince otherwise normal men to commit a violent felony and one of the most savage acts a person can do to another purely on their behavior towards them?

I want to punch people that think this way.

Comment #18: Zyla  on  02/16  at  07:37 PM

71% of British women surveyed said you bear “some” responsibility for getting raped if you got in bed with a guy without checking to see if he was a rapist first.  Have 71% of British women refrained from not only getting alone with a man, but getting in bed with him?

Er…umm…well…I’m sure you’re right, but surely most of those women who were getting in bed with a man were preparing to have consensual sex with him?

This is not, of course, to deny that there are situations where a woman might get into bed with a man either without intending to have sex with him or intending to, but then changing her mind.  If the man rapes her in such a circumstance, that’s obviously still rape, and the guy is a douchebag rapist.  But is it really such a common thing that it’s like a large percentage of these women are being hypocrites?

Comment #19: jlk7e  on  02/16  at  07:41 PM

It’s a compelling thesis, but I think you underestimate a) how many women in the UK have already been raped and are experiencing the more subtle dissonance resolution Cerberus describes above and b) how much easier it is for women to identify with men, and therefore absolve them of responsibility on grounds of empathy. Men are not the only ones who go around believing that women are not real people, and we all think of rape as a zero sum game in which it’s got to be someone’s fault - so if it’s not the man’s, it’s got to be the woman’s.

Add to that the powerful “not my Nigel!” impulse that makes women (who are essentially trained to b loyal to the male members of their tribe above all others) jump to the defense of brothers, partners (even ones who’d raped them), sons and friends, and you have a more complicated picture than the “I’m not a slut so it won’t happen to me” phenomenon, which is more applicable to relatively young, sexually active women anyway - whereas the respondents to teh survey were from all over, I believe? Religious as well as secular, married, elderly etc.?

Having said all that, I’m saving the “We’re told you have to kiss a lot of frogs” line and putting it on a bumper sticker. Do you have a PayPal account for royalties? I don’t want to get sued for stealing your intellectual property. wink

Comment #20: MarinaS  on  02/16  at  07:45 PM

I told that story later and was chided by another man who felt it wasn’t “nice” to out the guy for the rape threat.

Holy crap!!!  I hope you ripped that guy a new one.

Comment #21: Kristen from MA  on  02/16  at  07:48 PM

I checked out the site, and it’s interesting how many of the comments are perversely apologetic. The statement seems to be that certain women are objectively sluts, but that doesn’t justify raping them. It reminds me of the comments that came out of Laramie after the Shepard murder: We don’t like gays, but it isn’t right to kill them. You can’t have your cake and eat it, too: If you support the idea of someone being inferior, you empower your outliers to act on your tacit approval.

Comment #22: joshuarupp  on  02/16  at  07:51 PM

Er…umm…well…I’m sure you’re right, but surely most of those women who were getting in bed with a man were preparing to have consensual sex with him?

So, do you feel that if you get in bed consenting to have some oral, perhaps a little PIV, then you consented to be choked, punched in the face, and anally raped?  Ummmm, I guess so!

That’s the point.  Consent to sex is not consent to be raped.  The women answering this are buying into the ridiculous idea that if you consent to X, you consent to Y.

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/16  at  08:00 PM

But is it really such a common thing that it’s like a large percentage of these women are being hypocrites?

Dunno, I’ve gotten in bed with guys without expecting sex (or being raped for that matter) several times, more if you include camping trips. That’s what happens when you stay over at friends’ houses and the couch is taken (or there is no couch) and you don’t want to sleep on the floor.

Comment #24: Caravelle  on  02/16  at  08:03 PM

“I’m not a slut so it won’t happen to me” phenomenon, which is more applicable to relatively young, sexually active women anyway - whereas the respondents to teh survey were from all over, I believe? Religious as well as secular, married, elderly etc.?

For sure.  You see a lot of women that move past a certain stage in life, and then start to judge everyone still in it as huge slut.  It’s the whitewashing phenomenon.  I had a friend experience this is a very direct way.  A friend of hers got married, and not but a few months after the wedding, called up my friend to read her the riot act for her “slutty” behavior as a single woman, and how she’s stupid not to settle down, and basically acting like she woke up one morning married, and certainly never sullied her pristine ass by dating different men and perhaps even having sex with them. 

I have no idea what accounts for it.  In some cases, it’s clearly sour grapes.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/16  at  08:05 PM

I have slept in the same bed with a couple of guys who I didn’t have sex with.  Two come to mind, one in my 20’s, who i never ended up having sex with, and another only a few years ago.  And, it was the first time I met him in person!  We had met on the internet (political message board).  I had no intention of having sex with him that night, and he knew that.  long story of how I ended up in his hotel room.  We had talked on the phone enough that I felt safe with him.  I just didn’t think he’d rape me.  Of course, I could have been wrong, he could have raped me, and a lot of people would have said it was my fault.

He didn’t rape me, and we had sex several days later.  And if he had raped me, it would have been just that, rape.  It’s funny in a way how I can see that this story would sound weird to others, but since I wsa there…it wasn’t weird at all.

Comment #26: JennyLI  on  02/16  at  08:07 PM

Men are not the only ones who go around believing that women are not real people, and we all think of rape as a zero sum game in which it’s got to be someone’s fault - so if it’s not the man’s, it’s got to be the woman’s.

I think this is a HUGE - and largely unaddressed - issue, especially given that so many sexual assaults occur when one or both people involved are intoxicated.

I was blacked out when I was assaulted. I blamed myself for drinking too much, and part of the reason for that was that he had been drinking too, so whose fault was it, really? I was the one hurting, and I targeted myself for that.

Comment #27: Katie Joy  on  02/16  at  08:09 PM

Or you can get in bed thinking you’re going to have sex and he decides that he hates condoms and you don’t have a choice. 

Here’s what people don’t understand: rapists rape because they like to rape.  They don’t misunderstand.  They don’t get carried away. They create situations where they can rape with impunity, often by exploiting others’ willingness to blame victims.

If you’re a rapist, then, you want to convince a woman you’re going to have mutually pleasurable, consensual sex.  Get her to take her clothes off for you!  And then enjoy the deep, sadistic pleasure of raping a woman and getting her under your power.  And do it knowing that everyone will say, “What did you think would happen?”, as if it’s reasonable to think that getting into bed with a man means that you are going to be subjected to violence.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/16  at  08:09 PM

That’s the point I was brushing up against without fully scratching it, so thanks Amanda.

A rapist has made the decision to attempt rape far before ever seeing a target, I think.

Comment #29: Zyla  on  02/16  at  08:11 PM

The “I slept with a guy under ‘innocent’ circumstances” conversation is missing the point, and badly.

It doesn’t matter if you whip your clothes off and are like, “Yeeee haw!”  He doesn’t get to rape you.

Here is some information about men who rape, which I think will clarify the problem here.  Rapists rape because they like raping.  The research indicates they rape women who are “blameable” not because they get confused, but mainly because they know that people will blame the victim and they’ll get away with it.  If they could jump you in an “innocent” situation, they’d probably prefer that—-more exciting, I’m sure—-but in order to cover their own asses, they pretend to be in a social or dating situation, so that they will be excused for raping.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/16  at  08:14 PM

It’s ironic, though, because it’s sort of a violation of the misogynist code. I mean, you can be the biggest chauvinist dick on the planet, but if the idea is that sex is a game and getting sex is the score, then rape has got to be cheating. To other sexists, you’d assume that rapists would be considered unsuccessful males.

Comment #31: joshuarupp  on  02/16  at  08:15 PM

Amanda @28

Yup. And often they don’t even bother being subtle about it. My partner’s kiss escape desperate ploy only worked enough for her to use it against herself later because he obviously deliberately was getting off on exploiting non-consensual space and getting off on her struggles against him. Kissing him confused that because what, was she consenting, was he just an ordinary dirtbag rather than some grand manipulator of people? And that cognitive dissonance gave her enough time to get away.

We really don’t value consent in this country and both non-sexual interaction between the sexes and heterosexual sexual interactions are going to be massively fucked up for a long time as long as the primacy of consent isn’t rule one.

My partner’s boyfriend shouldn’t be an extraordinary male sexual partner because he’s a consent fetishist. He should be the default expectation.

Comment #32: Cerberus  on  02/16  at  08:26 PM

I mean, you can be the biggest chauvinist dick on the planet, but if the idea is that sex is a game and getting sex is the score, then rape has got to be cheating.

Well, there is the idea that rape is just a little further along the “appropriate male behavior” spectrum than more acceptable types of sex*. So in that theory it’s not like all rape is some whole new kind of game, or cheating, so much as just playing a little rougher than you’re supposed to. You’re not a rapist, you’re just “hardcore!” (and winning!)

Don’t know if I believe that’s necessarily true (rape and flirting, etc, being on the same spectrum), but it’s an interesting idea, that a little bit of ignoring her boundaries and wishes is okay, and pushing the issue is fine and you’re still a gentleman if she’s not physically fighting you or screaming, but you don’t want to go overboard to the point that it’s prosecutable. And certainly you save the bad stuff for the *real* sluts, not the girls who are gonna be someone’s wife someday!

*rape isn’t actually “sex” of course, it’s rape.

Comment #33: Bagelsan  on  02/16  at  08:28 PM

@31

Well from what I can tell of toxic masculinity, what matters is the count rather than the method. Cheating doesn’t matter in the same way as few hunters will ask if the buck’s head someone bagged was from an assault machine gun or a standard rifle.

And there’s some often revelatory acceptances in turns of phrases. Here are some standard boasts:
“I got her back to my place and…” (the how is passively left off)
“I bagged (or I banged) her” (passive object, consent not noted, indeed hunting metaphor implies lack)
“Gave her some wine…” (boasts including using alcohol to lower inhibitions, consent)

Indeed for the culture and what it responds negatively too, they don’t really see rape as cheating, but they definitely see being in a relationship as cheating. Getting sex frequently with one person to whom you show genuine affection to, that gets a lot of derision by men unless you can boast about getting her to perform a sex act that most women or even she wouldn’t for the purpose of “making it up”.

It’s really the natural outgrowth of the old romantic idea of the seduction expert, that is lauding the ability of a man to wear down the grey areas of consent enough to get a “sexual encounter” consent be damned in order to increase his score, because the art is in the “hunt” rather in the sexually fulfilled.

This is most illustrated in my partner’s boyfriend who often feels like he fails “masculinity” and thus will somehow get his man card revoked despite “winning” the purported game. He has regular sex with a relatively large staple of women and is well regarded as a passionate and sensitive poly lover by women. But it’s all honest upfront, genuinely caring about women and responding to their desires crap rather than good honest seduction, rape, and mistreatment so mentally it “doesn’t count” and he still ends up fighting his training that he’s “being a bad male”.

In short, the problem is toxic masculinity is almost defined by its willingness to rape or otherwise abuse women.

Comment #34: Cerberus  on  02/16  at  08:38 PM

Rapists rape because they like raping.

I try to remind myself of this in less dire situations too. If some guy gets super pissed off when I tell him “no thanks” to a drink or going back to his place or hanging out? He’s a bad person. I didn’t “make” him act like that, and it’s just more confirmation that I made the right call in the first place. If he’s a genuinely decent guy I would pretty much have to murder his puppy in front of him to get a violent response, so anything less than puppy-murder and the confrontation definitely isn’t my fault. :p

I think that’s a good line to draw. If it’s worse than puppy-murder? Maybe your fault he’s upset. No puppies were harmed in the making of this guy’s tantrum? He’s a dickweed.

(Rape, of course, is not justifiable even in the case of puppies. So that’s an easy one to draw a line for: did rape occur? His fault. No more questions, your Honor.)

Comment #35: Bagelsan  on  02/16  at  08:39 PM

“We know that the most common thing that happens is that you date someone, sleep with them, and it doesn’t work out.  But sometimes it does, so we keep plugging.”

Sorry, but I “LOL’d” at this one.

Comment #36: Mark  on  02/16  at  08:46 PM

As others have already pointed out in this thread, there are a myriad of reasons why a woman might change her mind about wanting to have sex after having gotten into bed with a man.  I think the poster at XX Factor named “bagel” really hit the nail on the head when s/he said “a woman has a right to maintain her bodily integrity at all times.”  It’s so simple, and there are men out there who just instinctively understand that.  I’ve dated them myself.  And I’ve sat/laid in bed with them just talking, and none of them ever pushed me to do anything that I didn’t want to.  And now after the fact I sit here thinking that I’m extremely lucky.  How freakin’ sad is that?  I was never raped by any of these men but I still have nagging doubts about my choices because I’m culturally conditioned to understand that those choices make me a slutty tease, even though in actuality none of those guys gave me any indication that I should feel that way.

And just the other day I heard a male acquaintance claim that we live in a matriarchy because women control sex.

Comment #37: Blitzgal  on  02/16  at  08:55 PM

I don’t know ... puppy murder could get kind of kinky ...

Sorry. Forgot where I was for a second.

It just seems weird to me that rape is a permutation of seduction theory. You hear all these guys talking about the use of “Game.” But a central component to the Game bullshit is the belief that women on some level like being overpowered, so it isn’t really force. Just the fact that all these guys are saying things like, “She was asking for it,” implies that they feel some sort of guilt - either over the act itself, or because they realize on some level that they “lost” the Game.

Comment #38: joshuarupp  on  02/16  at  08:58 PM

I don’t know if any theoretical guilt would be because they “lost” the Game, or that they know deepdown the Game is bullshit. Women like having things done to them that they don’t like having done to them? Wha? Brainsplode. The whole Game thing just doesn’t hold together coherently without those guys agreeing to hate women and hate them passionately. If they acknowledge that the purpose is to hurt women expressly to gain male approval then there’s no cognitive dissonance, but a lot of those assholes seem to be misogynists *and* cowards so they try to pretend it’s not innately a Game about playing “chicken” with rape. Hypocritical dishonest rapists inching timidly across female boundaries might be worse than full-on rapists: go big or go home, you fucking rapist wannabes.

Comment #39: Bagelsan  on  02/16  at  09:06 PM

And just the other day I heard a male acquaintance claim that we live in a matriarchy because women control sex.

Btw, am I the only one who wishes vagina dentata were real? :p Make all those whiny guys’ dreams of being controlled by pussy come true. “Her mouth said ‘no’ but her eyes said ‘yes’ but her vagina said ‘no’ emphatically.”

Comment #40: Bagelsan  on  02/16  at  09:10 PM

“Her mouth said ‘no’ but her eyes said ‘yes’ but her vagina said ‘no’ emphatically.”

A-fucking-men.

Comment #41: Well, what?  on  02/16  at  09:18 PM

Bagelsan, 40:

See, I was with you right up to the junk-ripping-off thing. Although I am biased.

I really like that point about playing “chicken with rape.” It’s that truism about how everything becomes easier over time, including most crimes. Which is actually a large part of the pity of rape: For the men, it’s a type of self-induced sociopathy. Men aren’t naturally women haters (you can argue with me, but it’s kind of a conversation killer; if they are, we’re all just fucked), so there has to be some concerted effort to deactivate our natural human empathy.

Comment #42: joshuarupp  on  02/16  at  09:23 PM

It’s the strict liability model of female sexuality. The patriarchy uses rape to control women in multiple ways. The actual violence is only part of it. The flipside is that if you don’t follow all the patriarchy’s chastity rules, you forfeit the right to complain if you do get raped. Of course, the woman never wins. If she’s an obedient possession of her rightful male owner, she can still get raped. Even if she follows all the rules, the patriarchy will always find a reason to blame her.

Comment #43: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  02/16  at  09:27 PM

I always thought fantasies about vagina dentata were ways that rape cultures expressed latent guilt.  But maybe I’m getting overly Freudian.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/16  at  09:35 PM

I think bringing in the game here changes the subject and misses the point. Speaking as a male in this target age group, raping is very much seen as cheating and really no one abides a “true” rapist. I cannot imagine anyone in that community being rape friendly. The lessons I took from The Game and Mystery’s Book was primarily one of respecting women. Maybe I’m reading them wrong, but I feel many of the things they suggest are about personal improvement and better social skills. The Game in particular has a chapter about just how fucking creepy some of the fucks he met and interviewed were. I think that is often missed. But yeah, if you said they were douchebag fucks, I couldn’t disagree! Enough on that tangent…

I think the incidents around the edges are caused largely by male paranoia about the perceived controlling aspect of women, that she’s using these charges as a way to take revenge on men. Its all bullshit, of course, but as a man this is the argument I hear, that all these men are suckers and are getting trapped in false rape charges. Again, not speaking it on its merits which are largely non-existent in reality, but I wanted to clear up some of the speculation.

I’d like to comment on one of Amanda’s points and extend it further: Blaming the victim in any rape case undeniably causes more rapes for very reasons she outlines. Any deflection of blame from the rapist HELPS the rapist. Anyone using this argument is unknowingly or knowingly making it easier for rapists to rape.

Comment #45: Zyla  on  02/16  at  09:36 PM

I always thought fantasies about vagina dentata were ways that rape cultures expressed latent guilt.  But maybe I’m getting overly Freudian.

Oh, no, I totally buy that. I just want ‘em anyways. :D ‘Cause all those anxious guys complaining that they can’t get any without jumping through hoops, and swearing that women have complete control over their own bodies and always have the final say, they paint a pretty nice picture of a world. I wouldn’t mind if they were right about all that.

Comment #46: Bagelsan  on  02/16  at  09:43 PM

Amanda, 44:

They took a bite out of crime.

I just blew my chances of fitting in here, didn’t I?

Comment #47: joshuarupp  on  02/16  at  09:45 PM

See, I was with you right up to the junk-ripping-off thing. Although I am biased.

Oh, so the puppies thing is fine but a li’l dejunking is where you draw the line? Ya baby. ;p

Comment #48: Bagelsan  on  02/16  at  09:45 PM

Most male domestic puppies will grow to sympathize with my position.

Comment #49: joshuarupp  on  02/16  at  09:49 PM

This is where I reluctantly point out there’s two holes back there, and if one is gonna bite your manhood off…

Comment #50: Zyla  on  02/16  at  09:55 PM

It’s typical of cognitive dissonance.  Choosing to believe that we have (or had) a choice about a negative outcome is related to the fact that we feel even more overwhelmed if we believe that we are(were) not in control.  So we believe we are in control of situations, even when we are clearly overwhelmed.  To believe that one is overwhelmed hits the self-esteem too hard, and makes coping with the aftermath of violence even more difficult—at least in the initial stages of dealing with trauma (or trauma by proxy).  Ultimately, thought, the victim must face the fact that they were no actually in control.  That is the only way to achieve a more complete healing.

Comment #51: scratchy888  on  02/16  at  09:56 PM

Er…umm…well…I’m sure you’re right, but surely most of those women who were getting in bed with a man were preparing to have consensual sex with him?

As Amanda pointed out, consent to sexual activity is not consent to every conceivable sex act performed in every conceivable way for every conceivable length of time. 

It’s really disheartening that the “what were you expecting?” crowd thinks it’s normal for women to be so utterly disempowered in het sex.

Comment #52: killjoy  on  02/16  at  09:58 PM

My partner’s boyfriend shouldn’t be an extraordinary male sexual partner because he’s a consent fetishist. He should be the default expectation.

Yeah, I was expressly asked by a friend to *stop* referring myself as such, since it marks me as an exception instead of what should be the default expectation.  It caught me a little off guard, but I realized she was right.

Like your friend, I often have to remind myself I haven’t “failed masculinity”. On my good days I joke about not having gotten the man instruction manual and such, but I definitely sometimes catch myself blaming myself about it, which is fucked up. (I’m more often on the good day side of the equation, but still.)

I reserve comment on the puppy murder v. vagina dentata argument. ^_^

Comment #53: LC  on  02/16  at  10:06 PM

As Amanda pointed out, consent to sexual activity is not consent to every conceivable sex act performed in every conceivable way for every conceivable length of time.

I would not be surprised if my (ex)landlord believes that consent to something is consent to anything, as he apparently believed that renting a room in his house meant I automatically consented to him coming into my room whenever he liked, usually late at night, whether I was there or not, either to yell at me, drunkenly ask my cup size, or move things around. He was also the classy dude who thought his ex-girlfriend was asking for it when she got roofied in a bar, ‘cause even though they were no longer going out, and were just friends at the point, apparently she wasn’t allowed to talk to other men while he was around without being a total slutty bitch. And then she had the nerve to get angry at him when he told her this! After he’d held her hair back while she puked her lungs out and everything!

And this guy identifies as a feminist. At the time of the roofie thing he was volunteering at a women’s shelter—wrap your mind around *that* one. (Happy ending: this was the same shelter the ex-girlfriend worked at. He was quickly “let go” after the incident ‘cause she apparently wasn’t an idiot.)

So, if that’s what passes for “feminist” in some guys’ opinions, I totally believe that your average non-feminist guy (and gal) has no problem thinking all sorts of f’ed up stuff.

Comment #54: Bagelsan  on  02/16  at  10:11 PM

Also, this reminds me of the “Schroedinger’s Rapist” discussion on Shapely Prose a while back. You don’t know he’s a rapist until he rapes you. And until he actually rapes you you’re supposed to give him the benefit of the doubt, but afterwards all your previous politeness turns into stupidity—until you are raped he could be either a rapist or not, and your behavior could be either romantic or foolish. It snaps into one state or the other at the point of rape.

Which is to say, your average woman or girl is expected to do things every day that quantum physicists throw up their hands at.

Comment #55: Bagelsan  on  02/16  at  10:18 PM

Amanda @23, maybe I’m misreading the earlier comment, but I think the point was that the she-asked-for-it fantasy is that the woman shows every indication of being ready and willing, and then at the very last second suddenly clamps her legs together and says “No, I don’t wanna, go away”. You know, a strawcocktease. And how often does that really happen? Pretty much about never, but to people wallowing in defensive attribution and misogyny, it’s so much harder to imagine a woman who’s been trying to be ‘nice’ and fend him off ‘politely’ finally realizing he’s not going to take a strong hint and coming out and saying “No, I don’t want that.”

Zyla @45, there are people in the ‘pickup’ and ‘how to meet women’ community who really are just about social skills and communication, it’s true. I recall visiting a male friend and hanging out in his library while he ran some errands, and discovering a how-to-meet-chicks type of book on his shelf. Turned out the first chapter of the book explained to the male reader that no, women are not crazy, they have to deal with a lot of shit in their lives (like, oh, rape), they have it tougher than men do and approaching women without a sense of entitlement and anger. The rest of the book was about basic social skills, self-confidence and respect for others. I felt a little sheepish at my initial impulse to ask him “Dude, what were you THINKING?”

But there is also a huge element in the PUA community that’s all about seeing women as targets and sex as a way of scoring points off the females in order to win status with your bros. The term “The Game” is a bit of a giveaway, isn’t it?

Comment #56: mythago  on  02/16  at  10:23 PM

I met a girl online from a couple hundred miles away, hit it off with her, engaged in some really heavy flirtation went on a date, took her home, made out with her a bit and she got into my bed. Then she told me she was sorry but she wasn’t all that attracted to me. So I said goodnight and slept with her. We parted as friends, and I spent the rest of my weekend masturbating away my disappointment.

It’s that easy, rapists!

Comment #57: oryan  on  02/16  at  10:33 PM

Oh I completely agree, but I think that’s more universal to men than just the PUA community :V It is a competition to be sure, but is that inherently negative?

And those types don’t really need defending, and it is not my intention to do so. Just talking for the sake of accuracy. I like my hatred to be precisely aimed.

Comment #58: Zyla  on  02/16  at  10:47 PM

The second hypothetical situation in the post very much like how like how I met my husband. The thing is, I made it back to his place on date #3 and didn’t have sex with him because I didn’t have my birth control sorted out at that moment and I wasn’t 100% comfortable doing it with someone I had known for less than a week. I did drink quite a bit and we ended up in our underwear in his bed (which I was up for, believe me!), but despite all that slutty behavior he did not rape me. We did some stuff short of PIV and then we snuggled up and went to sleep. But if he had assaulted me, I know I would have had an impossible time getting anyone to do anything about it because I did exactly all the “wrong” things for ladies to do, but in reality, all those wrong things brought me tremendous excitement and joy. It was a fucking magical time for me. The thing that made the difference is that my husband is not a rapist. Imagine that.

(We totally had sex the next time I spent the night though, because I had my BC dealt with and I really, really wanted to. And then we did it at least once a day for about a year, because that’s what being young and wildly in love is like.)

Comment #59: ElleDee  on  02/16  at  10:56 PM

I’m with Cerberus: in the toxic-masculinity community, sex is about degrading women. So if she was really into it and had a good time and the two of you still like each other afterwards, you must really be queer or something.

But I’m another one of those freak who thinks “why would anyone want sex with an unwilling partner” should be a rhetorical question. So I’d say that a woman who is raped after getting into bed or going home with a guy actually bears negative responsibility for the rape (I know this is getting weird, because it’s not as if women raped in other ways bear any responsibility either) because the guy went through all the work of convincing her to come home with her for (at least possibly) consensual sex.

Comment #60: paul  on  02/16  at  10:58 PM

I don’t know if any theoretical guilt would be because they “lost” the Game, or that they know deepdown the Game is bullshit.

Hypocritical dishonest rapists inching timidly across female boundaries might be worse than full-on rapists: go big or go home, you fucking rapist wannabes.

Speaking of The Game, boundary pushing is basically the male version of the shit test.  For anyone who hasn’t read the book, a shit test is something a woman does to test a man to gauge his reaction, and most of the time he fails.  So she might say something overtly sexual.  If he responds too positively, he loses.  If he responds negatively, he loses.

Anyway, I’ve been on a number of dates or met guys in public who would deliberately push my boundaries (make explicit sexual comments, try to touch me in ways that were totally inappropriate for how well we knew each other).  Whenever I reacted badly or pushed them away, I could see that I wouldn’t be seeing the guy again.  I’m certainly glad to have such an easy way to weed out the douchebags, but it does demonstrate that it’s not just women who pull that kind of shit, despite the whining of PUAs.

I always thought fantasies about vagina dentata were ways that rape cultures expressed latent guilt.

I assume it’s the fear of getting back what you give, like white people’s fear of slaves, and later free black people, rising up and taking revenge.

Comment #61: keshmeshi  on  02/16  at  11:00 PM

It just seems weird to me that rape is a permutation of seduction theory. You hear all these guys talking about the use of “Game.” But a central component to the Game bullshit is the belief that women on some level like being overpowered, so it isn’t really force.

The Game bullshit is predicated on the idea that women are a black box to be manipulated - feed in the right combination of inputs, and you get your reward. It’s massively sociopathic, but I don’t see how it is related to “overpowering”.

Comment #62: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/16  at  11:01 PM

I always thought fantasies about vagina dentata were ways that rape cultures expressed latent guilt.  But maybe I’m getting overly Freudian.

Well sure, if the fantasy is a fearful one of being bitten. The fantasy of doing the biting is how the oppressed in a rape culture express their latent rage at being constantly dehumanized.

Comment #63: Well, what?  on  02/16  at  11:08 PM

It is a competition to be sure, but is that inherently negative?

I want to make sure I understood you here: you are genuinely asking whether it is “inherently negative” for men to use women’s bodies as a means of competing with each other?

Comment #64: mythago  on  02/16  at  11:20 PM

I see the survey results were put out by a group that advocates for rape victims.  “Most people agree that rape is victim’s fault” seems like a pretty dangerous message to be injecting into the conventional wisdom.

Comment #65: Wallace  on  02/16  at  11:21 PM

I think ducks are on the right track:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/12/22/kinkiness-beyond-kinky/

Comment #66: hbsweet, empress of ice cream  on  02/16  at  11:25 PM

We’re in a matriarchy because women control sex?  Why wasn’t I aware of this?  Goodbye, dry spell!

Comment #67: Kyso K  on  02/16  at  11:41 PM

Every human being is a black box, which is why the Game bullshit works.

Dude, I don’t wanna cite Kant, but it’s a question of whether you see people as a means to an end or an end in themselves.  Women are people (as opposed to Alien Creatures That Give Me A Stiffy), which means that treating them as a vending machine for Teh Vagina is just wrong.

Comment #68: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/17  at  01:02 AM

Chet-

That was Amanda’s comment.  I’m near 99% sure she’s never raped anyone.

Comment #69: Antigone  on  02/17  at  01:27 AM

Mythago: I retract that statement because I was retarded :( I didn’t think properly about the obvious implication of my question. Your presentation of it back was really all I needed to see about how dumb I was being with that.

I apologize categorically :(

Comment #70: Zyla  on  02/17  at  01:41 AM

Chet@68

I’m a man who is 100% sure he never raped anyone.  Why?  Because I asked every time: “do you want to have sex?” (or some variation thereof)—and then I acted in accord with the other person’s wishes.  It’s really not rocket science. 

I agree with you, though, that characterizing rapists as “other” (scary strangers, usually black) has led to a lot of denial and enabling of rape.  Rapists certainly look like everyone else.  I resist the notion, however, that rape is something so easy for men to commit that they sort of stumble into it through negligence or self-deception.  It requires a fuck of a lot of self-deception, and a staggering lack of empathy, to convince oneself that an unwilling partner is really willing.  It’s not like cheating on your taxes.

Comment #71: Captain Bathrobe  on  02/17  at  01:56 AM

Yeah, Chet is full of shit.  I’ve been trying to imagine what the rape frame of mind is, and I can’t do it.  I assume it takes a certain amount of force, and a certain conscious acceptance when she says no of “fuck that, I’m doing it anyway.”  I don’t believe you can rape a woman and not be aware that you’re raping her.

A guy who kills his pregnant wife can count on his family defending him.  That’s not proof that anyone’s capable of killing their pregnant wife.

I think rapists are kind of like drunk drivers.  Not every driver on the road is drunk.  But the drunk ones are out there, and they can look the same as everyone else.

Comment #72: Wallace  on  02/17  at  02:11 AM

Saying that “rapists rape because they like to rape” is NOT the same as saying that “rapists are all horror movie monsters that are totally unlike the boy next door.”  One of the most important insights of feminism is that the oppression of women is systematic.  We live in a rape culture.  It is entirely possible that the boy next door, the boy that looks like you or me, is a rapist who does it because he likes to rape and not because he is deluded and thinks himself innocent.  They might substitute terms.  They might not call it rape in their own minds.  They might even think that whatever it is they like to do is okay (because it is constantly validated by the rest of culture).  But the fact remains that getting off taking sexual agency away from women is the same as “raping because they like to rape.” 

Captain Bathrobe has it right.  You probably can’t convince yourself that an unwilling partner is willing.  If you have sex with unwilling partners anyway because it makes you feel like a big man, then you are a rapist who likes rape whether you call it that in your own mind or not.  I guess what I’m trying to say is that it is actually the RAPIST who recasts “rape” as something that is only done by monsters (its only rape if you jump out of the bushes with a gun, etc.)  Amanda’s point is much more banal and much more realistic.

Comment #73: madavis4  on  02/17  at  02:21 AM

i think i am now totally confused. i was taught (by my parents) that if someone says no, assume that’s what they mean. also, as someone noted above, why on earth would i want to have sex, with someone who didn’t want to have sex with me? that doesn’t seem like it’d be any fun, which is the primary purpose of non-procreational sex.

there is no excuse for rape, period. it’s either consensual or not, there is no inbetween. anyone too stupid to understand no, is probably too stupid to be having sex, their ego notwithstanding. there’s no such thing (other than in the alternate reality of conservapub america) as a woman “asking” to be raped, unless she’s holding a sign saying “rape me please”. personally, i’ve never witnessed that. even then, she can change her mind. sex workers can be raped. the mere fact that it’s their living doesn’t make it open season on them. another conservapub fallacy.

Comment #74: cpinva  on  02/17  at  03:20 AM

Zyla #71: You apologized for the momentary dumbassery before I could chime in with my own “WTF?” so props to that, but you really shouldn’t use “retarded.”

Comment #75: Bagelsan  on  02/17  at  04:51 AM

Frankly I think that thinking of yourself as a man who could never under any circumstances rape a woman puts you at significant risk of raping someone.

This is just silly. I think of myself as a person who would never kill a toddler just to watch it die—should law enforcement be keeping an eyeball on me now? Does identifying as a non-toddler-killer make me more likely to go do some toddler killing now*?

A purposefully self-deluded person, or one who is lying to themselves, is going to be a risk for the people around them. This doesn’t mean that determination not to do something is a risk factor for doing it, nor does it automatically mean that you’re lying to yourself if you plan on not doing something—it just means that a lot of people who are likely terrible people lie to themselves about it.

*Though honestly, with the puppies and now the toddlers, I almost feel like I should be keeping an eye on me myself. ;p

Comment #76: Bagelsan  on  02/17  at  05:00 AM

Women like having things done to them that they don’t like having done to them? Wha? Brainsplode.
That mindset might be more accurately described as “Women *say* they don’t like ___, but deep down they secretly love it”.

Comment #77: Devonian  on  02/17  at  05:04 AM

sure, you’ll meet (and sleep with) women, but none of them will be particularly interesting people.

I’m sure they are plenty interesting, but why should they care to show that to the PUAs? I wouldn’t care to show off my personality to someone who saw people as a black box either, and I often entertain the conceit that I’m an interesting person.

Sure, there’s some allowance for individual will and volition, but come on, human behavior is highly predictable.

Also, as you clearly have human brains all figured out, could you please drop a line to the millions of doctors/therapists/teachers/parents/scientists/pharmacists/crazy people out there who aren’t sure how it works? They would love to know. We all thought it was super complicated and much more unpredictable than computers, for example (emergent properties! social conditioning! learning! environmental factors! billions of cells and chemicals and receptors!) but I guess not. *smacks head* Doh!

Comment #78: Bagelsan  on  02/17  at  05:10 AM

“But since it’s the men who are committing the crime of rape,” replied Golda Meir, “then it would make more sense to propose a curfew for men.”

Judi @#12,
When I was in high school one of the gym teachers wanted to add a Women’s Self Defense course for a PE credit. He was going to all the classrooms trying to get girls to sign up. In his speech he quoted several rape statistics but the one he stressed was the one (I forget the numbers) that shows women are more likely to be raped by someone they know. So I asked what I thought was the obvious question, “Then why not have a Don’t Rape course for the boys?” Initially I got a laugh, which was not what I was going for, then an uncomfortable pause and then no answer. I remember most of my classmates, the teacher, and the gym teacher staring at me in horror and embarrassment as if I had just farted loudly. It still bothers me 12 years later. I think I asked a valid question but I was treated like I was speaking in tongues.

Comment #79: shakahi  on  02/17  at  05:11 AM

“Women *say* they don’t like ___, but deep down they secretly love it”.

Oh, I’m sure that’s how of lot of those dudes justify it. (Maybe some even believe it!) But I find it hard to buy.

If it walks like sexual humiliation, talks like sexual humiliation, quacks like sexual humiliation ... a lot of guys will download the .AVI file. :p And I don’t think the prevailing thought, hand on cock, is “I’m sure she’s actually having a pretty good time! This would be no fun at all if I were to pretend that this was degrading to her in any way!”

(Hmm, that turned into a porn thing. Goes for the PUA stuff too, though, and all that manly-bonding-over-what-you-made-your-girlfriend-do. No way guys think their partners would like hearing themselves talked about like that, for instance.)

Comment #80: Bagelsan  on  02/17  at  05:17 AM

The unfortunate truth is that rape is often a perfectly ordinary act of self-deception, of which any man is capable. Frankly I think that thinking of yourself as a man who could never under any circumstances rape a woman puts you at significant risk of raping someone. Maybe you already have. (The more you’re sure you haven’t, the more I think you probably did.)

Except that this isn’t supported by the research.  If you follow the link Amanda posted in the comments, you’ll find studies indicating that a small percentage of men commit the majority of rapes.  It’s not something any man might do; it’s something a small but substantial number of men do, and do repeatedly.  Nor are they under the delusion that they got consent.  They know their victims didn’t want to have sex with them.  They just don’t care.  They’re not monsters to the extent that they look normal and are probably very nice when they’re not raping (or abusing; they also commit the lion’s share of domestic violence), but something is broken inside them.

Rape culture encourages and protects these guys by promoting the idea that consent isn’t important, that “conquering” an unwilling woman is romantic, that women ask for it in a thousand unspoken ways, that bros always come before hos.  A lot of people are complicit in allowing rape, but the actual rapes are committed by a relatively small group.  If people stop defending these guys by claiming they were misunderstood or just doing what any red-blooded male would do, we’ll have far, far fewer rapes.

I have severe doubts that the Game stuff works at all.  I imagine it repulses most women, and it “works” only in the sense that it encourages guys to talk to as many women as possible; if you try a horrible pickup line on 100 women, chances are that one of them will shrug and go along with it.  That doesn’t make it a good pickup line.

Comment #81: Shaenon  on  02/17  at  06:44 AM

I was raped by my first boyfriend, it was my first time. I had agreed to other stuff so he assumed consent to everything else and I was too shocked to really process what had happened - I continued to go out with him. I am sure that he has no idea that he “raped” me, although it was very obvious that I was extremely unwilling - I only realised that there is a word for that after we had broken up. I never thought it could happen to me.

My fiance, who I have been with for 8 years, is the polar opposite. I can drag him into the bedroom and jump on top of him and he will still check verbally that it is alright before going ahead with anything, and he was like this even before he found out about my past. There is no reason why enthusiastic consent should not be the base line for everyone, and the idea that you can rape someone by accident or unknowingly is ridiculous - if you are a decent human being.

Comment #82: Lucy  on  02/17  at  07:39 AM

Amanda wrote:

He’s sitting at the defense stand hearing the jury read a verdict of not guilty.  His family cheers while her family closes in around her protectively.  Afterwards, jurors who are interviewed say, “Well, she should have known that could happen if she just went home with a man, after all that flirting with him.  He’s no saint, but she had it coming.”

IN an admittedly quick skimming of the comments, I didn’t see the not guilty verdict addressed, but it needs to be.  Our legal system requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt for a criminal conviction, and if you are talking about situations in which a rape occurred, but it was not witnessed by anyone other than the rapist and victim, and it occurred in a private dwelling voluntarily entered by the rapist and victim, it’s very difficult to meet the standard of proof required for a conviction.

Comment #83: Dana  on  02/17  at  09:27 AM

This “don’t go to bed with a man if you don’t expect to have sex thing” is such bullshit. I’ve got into bed, sans clothing, with several men, specifically intending to fool around, and specifically saying that PIV sex was not going to happen that evening.  Guess what - not one of them raped me!  Heck, I married the last one.

Comment #84: Katherine  on  02/17  at  10:40 AM

@84: I read two largely unrelated issues into that post— not only do the jurors blame the victim in a rape case, but they also assume all accusations in all cases are necessarily true. They “know” he raped her because someone said he did, but they let him off because the victim is a woman and she was blabbity blabbity bloo.

@6: To be brutally honest, if you had smacked the guy who told you that you should have kept the potential rapist’s remarks secret, I would say he had it coming.

Comment #85: Maronan  on  02/17  at  11:08 AM

Our legal system requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt for a criminal conviction, and if you are talking about situations in which a rape occurred, but it was not witnessed by anyone other than the rapist and victim, and it occurred in a private dwelling voluntarily entered by the rapist and victim, it’s very difficult to meet the standard of proof required for a conviction.

Not if the victim has bruising, leaves scratch marks on the rapist, or there is other evidence that it wasn’t voluntary is found forensically on either party involved.

Comment #86: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/17  at  11:14 AM

“if you are talking about situations in which a rape occurred, but it was not witnessed by anyone other than the rapist and victim, and it occurred in a private dwelling voluntarily entered by the rapist and victim, it’s very difficult to meet the standard of proof required for a conviction. “

Which is just a long-winded way of saying rape is basically legal. Because, as Dark pointed out in #87, there can be evidence. Evidence that will usually be explained away by more victim blaming and rape apology.

Comment #87: Gypsy Lee  on  02/17  at  11:20 AM

The lessons I took from The Game and Mystery’s Book was primarily one of respecting women.

Wow, I can’t imagine what kind of horrible misogynist you must have been that their misogyny seems enlightened to you.  But maybe if you keep plugging, you’ll come around to seeing women as people that you relate to as human beings.

Comment #88: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  11:22 AM

Dana, in my hypothetical, he did rape her and everyone knows it.  My fiction is typical—-jurors often let go men they believe are rapists because they think the victim had it coming.  I believe, from your comments here, you would allow a man who committed a rape to go free if you thought the victim was slutty.  You’d eat that defense right up.  A lot of people do.  People like me, who don’t hate women, get tossed from the jury pool by defense attorneys.

Comment #89: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  11:24 AM

mythago @56, I know what they’re thinking when they excuse men who rape women who earlier intended to have consensual sex—-the mythical cocktease.  But I was just pointing out the realities.  Blunt language can helpfully show us why our conceptions that we get from a sexist society are wrong.

Comment #90: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  11:27 AM

The Game bullshit is predicated on the idea that women are a black box to be manipulated - feed in the right combination of inputs, and you get your reward. It’s massively sociopathic, but I don’t see how it is related to “overpowering”.

This is how it works: The Game teaches men that women owe men their sex, and if men aren’t getting the sex they deserve, they are operating the mindless sexbots incorrectly.  See, the sexbots are like video games!  You have to get the manual to get past some of those Big Bads that are there to keep you from winning.  But it can be done, if you know the codes.

In real life, women aren’t sexbots.  But if you tell men women are supposed to operate successfully when the proper inputs are installed, and the sexbots don’t work as instructed?

Well, I’ve kicked my car when it broke down.  I don’t know about you.

Stuff like “The Gift of Fear” really drives home this message to women.  Women are taught to be accommodating and giving to men who push boundaries.  The most useful thing a woman can do is not hold her keys in her hand or never go on dates, but trust her instincts.  If a guy is creepy, don’t indulge him.  If he pushes boundaries, he’s testing you to see how much of a fight you put up.  In other words, guys running The Game are sending off big time rapist signals.  Women should take those seriously.

Does The Game “work”?  Well, it seems to work in the same way that rapists work to figure out who is the ideal victim.  Who has boundary issues?  Who lets you bother her without running away?  Who will let you push her around because she’s taught nice girls don’t stand up for themselves?  The Game teaches that all women are like this, but their advice to keep moving own belies that.

Notice that most rape prevention advice is written and issued in a way to avoid interfering with women’s training to be nice and passive.  Stay home, don’t go out, don’t allow yourself to trust your judgment. You can’t know who rapists are, of course, but it’s interesting that no one even starts with, “Cut a motherfucker who doesn’t respect your boundaries.”

Comment #91: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  11:32 AM

Does the Game work by saying women owe men sex, or by saying that men who do not get sex are not men? From what I’ve gathered, Gamesters are not nice to each other. They use categories like “alpha” and “beta” to describe other males. Your status in the hierarchy is determined by how much sex you can prove you’ve had. That’s why I’m still grappling with the rape issue. I understand why a rapist would rape, and I understand why non-rapists might delude themselves into defending a rapist - but I don’t understand why these Game guys would rape. It seems like a contradiction of their ideology, i.e., women naturally want alphas and naturally reject betas. So, if your “Game” isn’t working to the point where she is screaming “No, no” and trying to whack you with the lamp, a Gamester could safely assume he was a beta, since that’s the only reason a woman wouldn’t want to have sex with him. There’s an internal logic to their bullshit that I don’t see how they get around.

Comment #92: joshuarupp  on  02/17  at  12:04 PM

“Cut a motherfucker who doesn’t respect your boundaries.”

Now, there’s a rape-prevention strategy I can support.

In response to several comments on the “why would you want to have sex with someone who doesn’t want to have sex with you” question. It’s not about sex. Rapists obviously want to get off but they rape because they enjoy exercising power over others. It’s about control and forcing your will onto someone else.

Comment #93: phil zombi  on  02/17  at  12:10 PM

The view that rape is the sole province of monsters is the reason that a rapist finds so many immediate defenders. Nobody believes their husband, or father, or brother, or friend is capable of such a monstrous act.

Exactly. This seriously complicates the issue, and it’s precisely why I think the focus needs to be shifted from RAPIST to RAPE. I’m not disagreeing with the fact that anyone who would rape is monstrous, but the fact of the matter is that, by framing the issue as a problem of *character* rather than as a problem of *behavior*, we do NO FAVORS to the justice system OR to rape victims, for two reasons:

1) When that upstanding wealthy/white/educated/ambitious/polite/etc. young man is accused of rape, the blame almost automatically shifts to the accuser, who (in great part by virtue of being female) is almost always perceived as having a lesser character.

2) Most women are raped by an acquaintance - many cases, someone who is outwardly likable, often so much so that the victim trusted him enough to spend time alone with him. If only monsters rape and rapists are always monsters, the victim is left dealing with some major cognitive dissonance on top of the rape itself, especially if the assault didn’t seem overtly violent. This, I’d wager, is partially why victims almost NEVER report rape, particularly in situations like Amanda described (in which consent to sex is used as an excuse to perform other sex acts without consent).

Comment #94: Katie Joy  on  02/17  at  12:27 PM

Translation for #95:  bitchez deserved it and women who agree are also bitchez who will deserve it.

Comment #95: Gypsy Lee  on  02/17  at  12:36 PM

Concern troll at #95, STFU. No, seriously. Shut.  The.  Fuck.  Up.

For your information, shitbag, rape is not an “intimate situation.” It is one person using force or coercion to violate another person’s bodily sovereignty, against that person’s will.  And in that situation, yeah.  One person is ZERO percent at fault.

But no.  Wait, you’re right.  Of course we wouldn’t want to be “disrespectful and unproductive” by calling the little “ladies” out as rape apologists when they’re APOLOGIZING FOR RAPISTS.

No, actually, I was right the first time.  Shut the fuck up, shitbag.

Comment #96: Rumblelizard  on  02/17  at  12:44 PM

#95,

I think that you’re dangerously wrong, but it does indirectly raise an issue: What responsibility does a rape victim have to out the rapist? This was a big deal when that kid Polanski raped didn’t want to go public with it. Many argued that, especially in our judgmental culture, rape victims have the right to go underground. I have trouble making this statement without sounding ... well, evil ... but I think that the privacy of the rape victim is secondary to the interests of the public. Rapists will probably do it again, and anyway by setting the precedent that they don’t value individual autonomy, they’ve shown that they’re probably capable of all tons of other heinous shit. It’s not “putting words into ladies mouths,” but society’s right to protect itself that is at stake.

Comment #97: joshuarupp  on  02/17  at  12:57 PM

I have no ideas if a Game guy is more or less likely to be a rapist.  However, the Game promotes rape culture—-the belief that women owe men sex, that women say no while meaning yes, etc.  Would a PUA be more likely to rape women?  In general, I’d think yes—-they’re attracted to the PUA thing because it excites their sexual fantasies of control and domination, and they enjoy having an excuse to push women’s boundaries—-but I can’t say.  What I do think is PUAs by and large would support rapists by blaming their victims for flirting. 

Anyway, here’s some interesting information about rapists.

The same team also found that rapists tend to be more able than average to interpret facial cues, such as a downward gaze or a fearful expression. It’s possible this skill makes rapists especially able to spot passive, submissive women. One study even showed that rapists are more empathetic toward women than other criminals-although they have a distinct empathy gap when it comes to their own victims. A highly attuned rapist and a woman who’s oblivious to hostile body language make a dangerous combination.

Even personality plays a role. Conventional wisdom holds that women who dress provocatively draw attention and put themselves at risk of sexual assault. But studies show that it is women with passive, submissive personalities who are most likely to be raped-and that they tend to wear body-concealing clothing, such as high necklines, long pants and sleeves, and multiple layers. Predatory men can accurately identify submissive women just by their style of dress and other aspects of appearance. The hallmarks of submissive body language, such as downward gaze and slumped posture, may even be misinterpreted by rapists as flirtation.

What’s interesting about PUA stuff is it’s like an instruction manual in skills that rapists already have—-treating women like prey, watching them like hawks to see if you can figure out if they’re submissive or have problems asserting boundaries, prodding for vulnerabilities that can be exploited, and above all, seeing women as obstacles between a man and his right to use her body as he sees fit.

Comment #98: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  12:58 PM

Katie, I think there’s usefulness in looking at who rapists are, because the evidence shows that they’re not the guys you think are monsters.  I mean, often they’re creepy, but our culture gives a lot of space for that, and a lot of what is actually creepy gets glamorized by PUAs as “alpha” behavior.  What people need to understand is that rapists are very good at manipulating women, because they put a lot of energy into it.  We should see them as con artists, who simply wish to violently abuse women instead of take their money.

Comment #99: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  01:01 PM

#100 - you got it backwards.  Latter means the second one.

Comment #100: Gavel Down  on  02/17  at  01:01 PM

And it’s possible they’ll fall in love and get married, AJones.  But we know that you’re one of those trolls who wants to legalize rape by making it clear that if a wom an lives her life, then raping her is the proper vigilante justice against her.  So get out of here, creep.

Comment #101: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  01:02 PM

Sorry, but ALL these women are not brainwashed, but courageous for their intellectual honesty. There are very few intimate situations where one party is ZERO percent at fault.

Oooh!  Ooh!  I know the answer to this one!

Concern troll is trollish.

Comment #102: attack_laurel  on  02/17  at  01:08 PM

I do think someone who thinks there is “fault” to be handed out if people had a mutually pleasurable, consenting sexual encounter is also going to think rape victims had it coming.  Anti-sex (for women) attitudes and rape apologism are bestest friends.

Comment #103: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  01:19 PM

Sorry, but ALL these women are not brainwashed, but courageous for their intellectual honesty. There are very few intimate situations where one party is ZERO percent at fault.

Once, I had $40 stolen from the desk on which I had left it before me or my officemate left the door closed but not locked during lunch, a rare oversight.  Obviously my carelessness absolves the thief from much of his or her culpability in trying every door in the hall to see if one would open so that he or she could take things.  Sure, they were deliberately opening closed doors to see what they could get, but I can’t argue with the fact that they would not have been able to get anything if I had not provided the opportunity.  In fact, I’m probably equally at fault for having not been diligent in an environment where the last rumored theft had occurred years before I even entered the building.

I’m so happy I understand now.  My local taxes will be much lower now that I know crime is how God makes sure people get what’s coming to them, which means we hardly need our cops for anything but traffic enforcement and the yearly SWAT-teaming of the Undergraduates.

Comment #104: Kyso K  on  02/17  at  01:31 PM

“What responsibility does a rape victim have to out the rapist?”

The responsibility a rape victim has to out the rapist is inversely proportional to society’s preference for revictimizing the rape victim over punishing the rapist?

Comment #105: preying mantis  on  02/17  at  02:14 PM

A thread with lots of PUA content but no Nice Guy content? You people are getting lazy.

Let’s say I have 20 male friends and one of them is a repeat rapist. Maybe he is a Nice Guy. Anyhow, we all know that he is kind of screwy with women. He gets them into situations and they don’t talk about it afterwards and when asked he smugly says a gentleman doesn’t tell tales but we all feel uncomfortable but we don’t really know so we pass over it and anyway its time to watch football or what have you. A week later he gets accused of rape and the cops pick him up. The group responds to this because we have to. 10 guys say he should do his time because he raped a woman and the other nine guys want to stick by him and they say she should have known this could happen because we all know with him it could have and may have in the past . There suspicions even if we never articulated them hence the remaining 19 understand the claim she should have known better and if its denied all 19 are complicit. So yeah asymmetrical knowledge in addition to group think might be a factor in blaming the victim.

Comment #106: pharmakos  on  02/17  at  02:30 PM

Sorry, but ALL these women are not brainwashed, but courageous for their intellectual honesty. There are very few intimate situations where one party is ZERO percent at fault. Changing the subject by putting words in these ladies mouths is disrespectful and unproductive.

If this were true, then it would be acceptable for women to pre-emptively violently assault men on the presumption that he might be a rapist, because he was standing too close to me and he was not listening when I said he didn’t want to talk, so of course I thought he was a rapist and I shot him with the gun I have a concealed carry permit for, just for situations like that! Hey, there are few intimate situations where one party is zero percent at fault, and if he was gonna get in a woman’s face and intimidate her by asking her intrusive personal questions and telling her to smile, he should have *known* she might think he was a rapist and shoot his dick off! What was he thinking, getting into a situation like that with a woman?

Except, you know, not so much, because the appropriate thing to do with the creepy annoying guy may be to ignore him or tell him to go away or put distance between yourself and him, but it is never to just whip out a gun and shoot him because he was sending you signals that you interpreted as him saying “I want to rape you.” No matter how much a guy signals that he wants to rape you, you’re not allowed to kill him until he actually tries. And no matter how much a woman signals that she wants your sex, you’re not allowed to sex her up until she actually consents (and if she withdraws consent, you no longer have consent.)

If victim blaming went both ways, women would be given carte blanche justification for killing or physically harming creepy guys. But we don’t. Because we are not allowed to take “he sent me a subtle social signal that I thought meant something” as “he definitely intended something and I was justified in acting on his expressed intention.” Why should men be allowed to do that when we aren’t?

The first day I dated the guy who became my husband, I slept in his arms, nearly naked, and we did not have sex. We did not have sex because we did not have condoms and because he was married, and although I saw strong evidence that his wife had just left him (I wouldn’t have been dating him at all without that evidence), I needed confirmation from her. I was nearly naked because his waterbed’s heater was broken and stuck on maximum heat, and I was sleeping there because I had been out with him until 4 am and was too tired to drive home. I had every intention of having sex with him once I cleared up his wife’s intentions and acquired condoms, but that couldn’t be accomplished that night. If he’d forced me to have sex, that would have been rape, regardless of the fact that I was in his bed nearly naked, because I was very clear on why I did not want to have sex. There would have been no mitigating circumstances; there is no lack of clarity in “I’m not going to have sex with you until we have condoms and until I find out from your wife if she is in fact leaving you.” However, since he is not a rapist, he did not rape me, and now I’m married to him.

Rapists don’t rape because they’re confused. They rape because they don’t think that a woman’s “no” counts. Either they like to rape, or they feel so entitled to sex that they just don’t care if they rape. Either way, dancing naked in front of a guy with a headband on that says “SEX ME UP” still does not absolve the guy of responsibility if when he tries to sex her up the woman says, “No, shit, I just realized I’m on antibiotics and they screw around with my birth control pill, so I can’t tonight,” and he ignores her and does it anyway.

Comment #107: Alara J Rogers  on  02/17  at  02:35 PM

It makes me wonder….what if a dude got into bed with another dude.  To play guitar or video games or pokemon or something.  Is it the one dude’s fault if the other one rapes him?  I mean, he got into the bed, he should accept some responsibility.  Right?  That’s how it works?

Comment #108: leedevious  on  02/17  at  02:39 PM

Men don’t get into bed with other men. MAN LAW no.45 from MAN LAW version 5.7

Comment #109: pharmakos  on  02/17  at  02:51 PM

#109 - So, so true. most families have that creepy uncle or cousin that all the young girls are pulled aside and told to make sure they never get caught alone with him. Then, if they do happen to let their guard down, treat family gatherings as family gatherings instead of games of cat and mouse, and get molested, it must be their own fault because they were warned.

Comment #110: ttintagel  on  02/17  at  03:12 PM

I love you, Alara.

Why hasn’t the weird misogynist creep wrongside been banned yet? Based on his comments he’s busy leering at 12-year-olds while simultaneously blaming them for wearing tank tops.

I don’t think any man is capable of rape, which is fundamentally a violent act against a more vulnerable person. Decent people have strong impulses against such a thing, even if they live in a patriarchal culture. Even in cultures where hitting children was acceptable, many don’t. Same with rape. Even if the guy believes rape myths, some part of him is going to have a hard time actually holding the woman down after she says “no.”

Comment #111: LR  on  02/17  at  03:13 PM

Wrongside is a PUA. He’s been here before. This being a feminist blog, I don’t think it’s going overboard to ban his ass, or AJones’s.

Comment #112: Nobody in Particular  on  02/17  at  03:19 PM

Alara, thank you, you’ve clarified for me something that’s bothered me for years with your point that i’ts unacceptable for women to preemptively act.

In undergrad, I was randomly put on a project team with a guy whose behavior towards me got creepier and creepier through the semester.  He walked with me everywhere, tried to keep my attention focused on him all the time (by this point in our program, the 100 people in our major pretty much had the same class schedule) and kept trying to get me to come over to his place to work on our project without calling the other team members.  He was basically treating me like I was his already, and in an added layer of creepiness, he was well aware that my then-boyfriend had just transferred to another school in another state at the start of the semester. 

I was freaked out, and everyone I knew kept saying “Just talk to him, it’ll be fine.”  I tried that, and he was FURIOUS that I would accuse him of behaving inappropriately towards me, so I changed groups and used a group of friends as a circle of protection in other classes.  There were a few people who thought I had done the right thing, but by and large people who were aware of the situation accused me of ruining the guy’s image and hurting him, which is what bothered me.  Now I see it’s because as a woman, it isn’t my right to act on obvious social signals, unless he did rape me, at which point it was obviously my fault.

As an aside, I doubt he would have raped me, because he had hella issues surrounding sexuality due to a super conservative fundagelical upbringing, but he was still making me uncomfortable and unhappy and anxious.  He seemed more like he was trying to use me for the affectionate part of a romantic relationship, not the sexual part.  Still creepy, although it contributed to a lot of people wondering what the big deal was.  “It was just a hug, settle down!”

Comment #113: Emaloo  on  02/17  at  03:47 PM

I understand why a rapist would rape, and I understand why non-rapists might delude themselves into defending a rapist - but I don’t understand why these Game guys would rape. It seems like a contradiction of their ideology, i.e., women naturally want alphas and naturally reject betas. So, if your “Game” isn’t working to the point where she is screaming “No, no” and trying to whack you with the lamp, a Gamester could safely assume he was a beta, since that’s the only reason a woman wouldn’t want to have sex with him.

I imagine there would be considerable deception and self-deception involved.

Comment #114: tps12  on  02/17  at  04:52 PM

I have severe doubts that the Game stuff works at all.  I imagine it repulses most women, and it “works” only in the sense that it encourages guys to talk to as many women as possible; if you try a horrible pickup line on 100 women, chances are that one of them will shrug and go along with it.  That doesn’t make it a good pickup line.

I think it worked for Neil Strauss, but he was a genuinely likable and interesting person who liked and was interested in other people, especially women.  It works for Mystery as well, because he’s a charismatic narcissist, and many people are inexplicably drawn to that.

Who it doesn’t really work for are the majority of men who attempt it, such as the boring losers who populated Project Hollywood and would rather play video games than interact with other people (which inevitably happened once they got bored with their mostly unsuccessful pick up attempts).  All the peacocking, pick up lines, anchors, and other mind games aren’t going to amount to shit if you can’t ultimately back it up by being an interesting person.

Comment #115: keshmeshi  on  02/17  at  04:53 PM

I have trouble making this statement without sounding ... well, evil ... but I think that the privacy of the rape victim is secondary to the interests of the public.

Again, a person is an end-in-themselves, not a means to an end.  You don’t force victims to testify against their wishes for the good of society any more than you’d go taking away one of their kidneys against their wishes for the greater good

Comment #116: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/17  at  05:05 PM

Stuff like “The Gift of Fear” really drives home this message to women.

This was a bit ambiguous, Amanda—you’ve read the book, yes?  Because the message of The Gift Of Fear boils down to “trust your instincts and avoid people who creep you out.”  It’s a pretty feminist-friendly text.

I do think it’s possible to rape someone out of what boils down to negligence or recklessness/wilful blindness.  There isn’t always a verbal “no” to ignore, and if a victim is scared enough she (or he) may just freeze and not put up any kind of a fight.

Of course people who really care about consent know that acquiescence is not consent.

Comment #117: killjoy  on  02/17  at  05:29 PM

Phoenician, 119:

I honestly don’t know. I agree that someone either can or cannot choose to prosecute an assailant, but on the other hand ... I mean, if Son of Sam or someone like that tried to kill you, for instance, and you survived, and decided not to out the Son of Sam, that would enable him to keep doing what he does. I know it’s not comparable, since there’s a stigma for rape and not for attempted murder, but it still strikes me as a variation of not yelling “Shark!” when you see a fucking shark.

Comment #118: joshuarupp  on  02/17  at  05:38 PM

What I absolutely hate is that people out there tell us to act as though all men are potential rapists, just waiting for the first excuse to rape, and yet we’re the ones who are accused of being “man-haters”. 

This is sort of nit-picky, but I don’t really like the terms “she was raped by a classmate” or “even women in burqas get raped”.  We should give credit where it’s due, and say that “a classmate raped her” or “men will even rape women in burqas”.  It can be a little awkward grammatically in some cases, so I don’t worry every time I see it, but it’s really more accurate to make the rapist the subject.  I know it also sounds a bit harsh and might be triggering for some people, but rape is harsh and we shouldn’t try to sugarcoat during discussions like these.

Comment #119: bananacat  on  02/17  at  06:02 PM

Most of the rape-apologist/slut-shaming/“shades of grey” horseshit can be cleared right up with a little semantic game. Replace ‘penis’ with ‘Taser’ and a woman’s genitals with ‘eye’.

Example 1:
“Joe and I had drinks and went back to my place. We were making out and undressed a little. Then he TASERED me in THE EYE”.

Example 2:
“Jane and I were in my car on our second date. I was pretty sure she liked me and she didn’t say no when I pulled over. So I TASERED her in THE EYE”.

Example 3:
“They were all over each other all night, slow-dancing and kissing. When they left together later of course he TASERED her in THE EYE. What did she expect?”

For fucks sake.

Comment #120: mir  on  02/17  at  06:06 PM

@catgirl,

Or you could phrase it like:  “rapists will even attack women in burqas.”  It is pretty jarring to state “men” flat out, as it implies that it’s something all men do.

Comment #121: keshmeshi  on  02/17  at  06:07 PM

Would it be possible to have certain “safe” threads that trolls are banned from?  I understand that this isn’t the kind of blog that just bans trolls immediately, and I actually agree with the position.  However, could they be put on a special list which is denied access to rape threads?

Comment #122: bananacat  on  02/17  at  06:11 PM

Or you could phrase it like:  “rapists will even attack women in burqas.” It is pretty jarring to state “men” flat out, as it implies that it’s something all men do.

Oh, you’re completely right.  Sorry about that.  I never meant to imply that all or even most men are rapists, but when I hear things like “don’t get into bed with men”, it effects even me.  Thanks for pointing that out to me.

Comment #123: bananacat  on  02/17  at  06:15 PM

“I know it’s not comparable, since there’s a stigma for rape and not for attempted murder, but it still strikes me as a variation of not yelling “Shark!” when you see a fucking shark.”

This would be vaguely analogous if the response to someone yelling “Shark!” was quite frequently to gang the fuck up on the person yelling “Shark!” rather than getting out of the water.  If you’re going to talk about society having a right to protect itself, you have to at least pretend to consider the fact that society doesn’t act like it’s interested in exercising that right when it comes to rapists.  If it was, we would not see a tenth of the victim-attacking behavior we do when victims come forward with complaints against rapists.  It’s not just that there’s a stigma attached to having come forward as the victim of rape, it’s that there’s a stigma attached to having come forward as the victim of rape at the same time that the justice system and the social network continue to do a great deal to ignore the complaint or paint the assailant as a victim.  Or are rape victims supposed to uphold a social contract that doesn’t seem to actually exist unilaterally?

Comment #124: preying mantis  on  02/17  at  06:31 PM

Men don’t get into bed with other men. MAN LAW no.45 from MAN LAW version 5.7

Right, but what if you’re a dude and you’re crashed out on your dude friend’s couch and he rapes you? Were you supposed to expect that because you were asleep in his house?

How about, you’re a dude, and your dude roommate brings a dude friend home to play video games, but you’ve got a big test in the morning so you turn in early, and you wake up to find your roommate’s dude friend raping you. Should you have expected that when you realized that a strange dude was staying in your house?

How about, you’re over a dude friend’s house, and you’re both drinking and watching DVDs, and then he climbs on top of you and starts kissing you and putting his hand down your pants. Was that your fault for going to his house to watch DVDs and getting drunk with him?

Men do do things to avoid any appearance of homosexuality (such as not sharing beds with each other), but women can be in absolutely platonic situations with men where there is no signal of sex aside from the fact that the genitals would line up right, and get raped, and get blamed for it because they trusted their dude friends that they hang out with. This does not happen to men. If it did happen to men, would the men it happened to be blamed for it? No, the man who did it would be blamed for it.

I don’t want to minimize the rape of men. Men often don’t admit to being raped by other men because they are afraid of being queer-shamed (it’s like slut-shamed, except the accusation is you’re gay), and men don’t admit to being raped by women because they can’t quite wrap their heads around the concept that if they said no and she got them hard and brought them off anyway it was still rape. And even men who do understand that that was rape understand that other men don’t think it was, so they don’t admit to being raped by women. But if a man did manage to admit that he was hanging out with his buddy and then his buddy raped him, he would be believed (once people stopped thinking it was a sick joke—people might not take him seriously at the first minute because men claim to be raped as a joke, but when he made it clear he was serious, no one would accuse him of lying), and the guy who committed the rape would be ostracized. (And treated as if he were both gay and perverted… which, if he’s a rapist, he is (perverted) and quite possibly might be gay, but the attitude would be that because he’s gay he’s perverted, not that he might be a gay man who is also a perverted rapist.)

This is because men have a hierarchy of who’s allowed to prey on who in their head. Every “normal” man is allowed to prey on women; therefore women should expect “normal” men to rape them. “Normal” women do not prey on men, therefore men could not possibly have been preyed on by women. “Normal” men do not prey on men, but gay men might, because gay men treat other men like men treat women. Therefore “normal” men should fear gay men the way women should fear “normal” men. (Also, judging from the porn I’ve been exposed to, “normal” men think that lesbians are about as likely to rape other women as “normal” men are.)

The concept that in fact there is nothing normal about a man who commits rape, and that the majority of gay men do not rape and the majority of men who rape other men identify as straight… it does not compute.

Comment #125: Alara J Rogers  on  02/17  at  06:32 PM

It was a joke and it should be obvious that it was because the post its in response to was partly playful and it should be obvious because you can’t possibly take anything seriously that’s based on MAN LAW.

Comment #126: pharmakos  on  02/17  at  06:43 PM

killjoy, that’s my point.  The Gift of Fear is actually useful, in that it gives you permission to avoid rape when you feel it coming but are scared to be a bitch about it.

Comment #127: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  07:21 PM

“Women *say* they don’t like ___, but deep down they secretly love it”.

And when that is true, that is fine. It may (though I doubt it) be very common.

But the result has to be that, therefore, they never get to do that thing they secretly love until they are willing to say so clearly and distinctly. It doesn’t matter how much someone secretly loves something. What matters is what they UNsecretly consent to.

Comment #128: Lymis  on  02/17  at  07:34 PM

“What matters is what they UNsecretly consent to.”

Yeah, which is why Chet’s “Frankly I think that thinking of yourself as a man who could never under any circumstances rape a woman puts you at significant risk of raping someone.” is kind of puzzling.  Not raping people isn’t exactly rocket surgery.  You just have to consider not raping people more important than getting laid and then act like it.  If you embrace the obtain-enthusiastic-consent-to-everything-prior-to-engaging-in-it model and then err on the side of not raping anybody if you think your enthusiastically-consenting partner may be too inebriated/high/whatever to be consciously consenting or giving informed as well as enthusiastic consent, you’re pretty much guaranteed to not rape anyone.

Comment #129: preying mantis  on  02/17  at  07:51 PM

“and men don’t admit to being raped by women because they can’t quite wrap their heads around the concept that if they said no and she got them hard and brought them off anyway it was still rape.”
Also because, legally speaking, iirc in many places a man *can’t* be raped by a woman…

Comment #130: Devonian  on  02/17  at  09:03 PM

“And when that is true, that is fine. It may (though I doubt it) be very common. “
And I don’t think it is. What matter is that a lot of people *do* think that, and use it to rationalize rape and the like…

Comment #131: Devonian  on  02/17  at  09:07 PM

Would it be possible to have certain “safe” threads that trolls are banned from?

I’m not sure this software supports that…you’d have to be able to create a “troll group” and set up a “troll-free zone” flag for each thread. 

It’s been my experience that there is a tremendous temptation to label anyone expressing a contrary opinion a troll.  (A lot of regulars here probably consider me to be one, though of course I don’t think I am.)  And trolls can be considered trollish on some subjects and not trollish on others; I don’t know how one would go about managing that or if the software can handle that kind of granularity.  It sounds like an interesting project though!

The link to ExpressionEngine under “Credits” is broken.  I get 404ed…the new URL is http://expressionengine.com

Comment #132: liberalrob  on  02/17  at  09:22 PM

If you can be sure you verbally asked literally every single time, then you’ve had sex only a handful of times. Keep having an active sex life with someone and there will certainly be instances where you have sex without either of you saying a word. Times you’ll have sex after some drinks. Maybe times your partner will be taking Ambien and sleep-sex you, I dunno.

Dude, you’re assuming an awful lot just to try to fit me into your highly dubious narrative.  I would say that you don’t seem to be that sexually experienced, if you think there’s that much ambiguity between rape and not-rape.  Either that, or your experience hasn’t taught you a whole lot about yourself or your partners. 

The thread was about rape in the context of dating, where the threshold of explicit consent is much, much higher than than for long-term relationships, where (hopefully) both partners can read each others’ cues fairly well.  Of course I haven’t asked my wife if she wants to have sex each and ever time; when she jumps on me after tossing a condom in my direction (or whatever), it hardly seems necessary.  But on dates, especially the first time, I absolutely used to ask.  That’s just basic courtesy and decency.

But, whatever: call me an inexperienced loser if it makes you feel good about yourself.  It would certainly be news to my wife.

Comment #133: Captain Bathrobe  on  02/17  at  10:19 PM

And by “ask” I include asking “should I put on a condom now?” and accepting responses such as “yes” or “here let me help you” or “hmm, try putting it a little lower” as evidence of consent.  Like I said, it’s really really not rocket science.

Comment #134: Captain Bathrobe  on  02/17  at  10:37 PM

Sure, women are people. Obviously. But people frequently have things that we want. You act like trying to convince them to give us those things is the act of a monster.

No, Chet, you fail to get it.  I stated that the attitude of the PUA crowd is “massively sociopathic”.  The reason for this is because they go beyond talking about manipulating women, and into the territory of painting women as nothing but objects to be manipulated.

Do you see the distinction, or should I try using words of one syllable?

Comment #135: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/18  at  01:05 AM

The idea of getting a verbal sex waiver is, frankly, an incredibly naive and limited view of the range of human sexual behavior.

I composed a variety of responses to this comment, but I think the most eloquent and succinct way to express my feelings on the matter is to ask you to kindly go fuck yourself. 

Whether you choose to obtain explicit verbal consent from yourself before proceeding is entirely up to you.

Comment #136: Captain Bathrobe  on  02/18  at  01:40 AM

The Gift of Fear is actually useful, in that it gives you permission to avoid rape when you feel it coming but are scared to be a bitch about it.

Totally agree. It gave me “permission” to avoid less dire things than rape, too; I now feel free to be a bitch about personal comfort beyond actual physical harm. A male acquaintance of mine has terrible social skills and annoying personal habits, like silent unblinking staring when you try to talk to him, so when he started moping around me *constantly* and pestering me to spend every weekend hanging out with him and staring at me all the time it got really annoying fast. It also, though probably unintentionally, set off a lot of those alarm bells in my head. I’m fairly sure that he was doing all the classically creepster stuff with a genuine though poorly thought out desire to be my boyfriend (and not to haul me off into an alley and skin me or something) but following around + emotionally needy + trying to spend every waking moment with someone you just met a month ago + mildly passive aggressive Nice Guy behavior out the yin yang all = GTFO creepster!

So I mustered my bitchitude and told this probably actually decent guy to step the hell off and not hang around me any more. A month of this behavior had my skin so crawly around him that if I were going to refrain from punching him a minute longer it would only be at the expense of flatout ignoring a million years of evolution saying “avoid!” and I wasn’t willing to do that. Did a sweet guy get shafted? Who knows? He got clingy too fast for me to even get to know him, so there’s no way for me to know. And I don’t care, it’s not my problem. I’m concerned with my health and safety, and forcing yourself to hang around a guy who sets all your trouble senses off for the sake of politeness isn’t healthy or safe.

(This was very recent, hence the rant. I’m fucking sick of boundary-pushing guys who think that any behavior short of physically grabbing you is *totally* acceptable and that despite the hovering and staring and creepy reluctance to let me out of their sight they are nice guys if they spend the whole time pretending we’re “friends” while this happens. Saying you’re my friend? Doesn’t make it so. Women need to feel more comfortable telling the men around them what’s what even when doing so gets teeny tiny lil tantrums from the man-children among them. Or, in my case, a lengthy series of emails explaining how nice he really is, and how I led him on by being polite and making him think we were friends. Dudes, I don’t care what a precious darling your mom thinks you are deep down; if your behavior is indistinguishable from a very shy rapist warming someone up to him? You’re not worth the time.)

Comment #137: Bagelsan  on  02/18  at  02:48 AM

Captain Bathrobe, Chet will accept nothing less than written documentation of every time you and your wife have had sex, with a tape recording of the conversation preceding/accompanying it. He will then examine these documents very carefully and give his expert opinion on whether or not you are a rapist. (Your own testimony, or your wife’s, will not be needed, thank you.)

Also, any statement from yourself that you *aren’t* a rapist will be taken as evidence that you actually totally are. In fact, just by you reading that phrase there in my comment you have slightly increased your chances, as denial of something equals guilt. Or something. :p

Comment #138: Bagelsan  on  02/18  at  02:54 AM

Bagelsan @ 143:

Indeed.  I think the take-away point is that Chet is the expert, and we are not.  He could have saved us a lot of time by just stating it up front, so that we could just point and laugh at him without having to wade through all his pompous verbiage first.  Oh well, live and learn.

Comment #139: Captain Bathrobe  on  02/18  at  03:24 AM

I think the take-away point is that Chet is the <strike>expert</strike> asshole, and we are not.

There, I fixed that for you.

Comment #140: Rumblelizard  on  02/18  at  01:21 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.