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Next entry: Engaging Miss California with reality-based questions about equality Previous entry: The Religious Right: bearing false witness over and over about hate crimes legislation

If you hate it so much, why’d you come out, dudes?

Music

This article about how Neko Case concerts are sometimes marred by sexist heckling is an interesting snapshot of an irritating phenomenon I’ve noticed.  It tends to happen most when a band with a prominent female member or members have gotten popular enough that they start to attract male fans that don’t usually listen to many female musicians.  Which is to say that I’ve seen this happen at Sleater-Kinney, Sonic Youth, and the Donnas, but not so much with bands that have a smaller audience.  Now Neko Case is getting it.

Soaking up one of her shows is about as close as you can come to feeling like a construction worker without actually learning to operate a backhoe. In San Francisco (!) several years back, one dude just chucked all caution/sense/decorum to the wind and requested she take off her shirt; Neko responded with the unfazed, elegant, bemused demeanor of someone accustomed to dealing with this sort of thing, something to the effect of, “No, no, you wouldn’t actually like that—it’d be like pulling up an old piece of plywood that’s been stuck in your front yard for years.” That (briefly) shut ‘em up.

Here’s the theory I’ve concocted:  We’re talking about women whose nets have been cast wide enough to pull in male fans who generally think of “women” and “musicians I really admire” as mutually exclusive groups.  But this particular band broke through that categorizing, and they probably think of themselves as not-sexist men.  Also, they probably assume that this band is the exception to the unspoken rule that only men make really great musicians.  But the main thing is that they don’t think of themselves as the kind of sexist pigs who are easily threatened by talented women. 

Then they get to the show and get a couple of drinks in them, and the subterranean anxiety about actually looking up to women kicks in.  And in this sense, it’s literal——you are physically looking up at this person who is the center of attention, who is doing something wonderful and meaningful that you can’t do.  At this point, the fact that this woman is occupying a role that these dudes have subconsicously reserved for men only begins to bother them, and they try to restore the balance of power by reminding the people around you (and if she can hear you, the woman on stage) that the unusual (in your eyes) nature of the situation doesn’t actually threaten the proper balance of powers.  You express this by saying, “Show your tits!”, or some variation of this.  The important thing is pretending that it’s a joke, so no one calls you out for being an asshole who thinks that the whole world needs to know that you think it’s weird that a woman is on stage. 

Just my theory, having seen this happen a few times.  Le Tigre’s gotten big enough to pull this echelon of male fans in, but it’s a slightly different thing at their shows, because the women in feminist-themed shirts, gay people, and gaggles of women who came together and aren’t quietly hanging onto a man is intimidating.  So instead, the “show your tits” guys end up hanging in the back, feeling weirded out, though they can’t quite explain why.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 02:00 PM • (85) Comments

I unfortunately never got to see them live, but I don’t think I’d have heckled Sleater-Kinney.  I have no doubt the members of that band could easily kick most people’s asses.

Comment #1: Spooky Skeptic  on  04/26  at  02:53 PM

I’ll try to remember this post when I see Neko Case in June and let you know what happens in PDX.  I did see this happen to Be Your Own Pet (although not to the Raveonettes at the same show).  More recently, this didn’t happen w/ Dengue Fever or Southern Culture on the Skids or Sons and Daughters.  Shonen Knife had a different sort of audience, so I never even considered the possibility there.

I’m glad you pointed it out, though.  While the comments at BYOP stand out, I never thought about it beyond, “Damn, it must be uncomfortable touring as a woman.  Especially if you don’t have other women touring with you.”

Comment #2: Jake Squid  on  04/26  at  02:56 PM

Weirdly enough, Zoe from the Dandy Warhols never got asked to take her shirt off.

(actually, as I recall she did, because asshole dudes aren’t just assholes, but impatient, too.)

Comment #3: Auguste  on  04/26  at  03:10 PM

I don’t know if you’re overthinking it exactly, but it strikes me as being more about male party culture than about their estimations of women. There’s an aggressive sexuality you see when certain, less enlightened guys (your wide net) get worked up an excited. By and large, guys looking at tits, even tits they admire. When neanderthals start feeling like their in a social setting where it is okay for them to be sexually aggressive(like a concert) they start acting sexually aggressive (“show your tits!”)

And while it is disrespectful, it isn’t truly about disrespect. Really, I don’t think the status of the woman gets much consideration around amped up chodes, which is about the same as reducing all women to meat, though the guy doesn’t waste that much brain power on the topic. This phenomenon would be a huge problem, too.

Not that that matters to the woman involved. I’m not making an apology, just pitching in my two cents on a point which is more or less moot in the grand scheme of things.

Comment #4: humanadverb  on  04/26  at  03:12 PM

First graf, “by and large, guys like looking at tits, even tits they admire.” Sorry, being rushed for a lunch date, should have proofed better.

Comment #5: humanadverb  on  04/26  at  03:13 PM

L7 had the most comical dealing with the problem.  At the 1992 Reading Festival, the angry dudes who couldn’t stand that women were on-stage got so out of control that Donita Sparks whipped out her tampon and threw it at them.

God, I love them so much.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  03:14 PM

I don’t know if you’re overthinking it exactly, but it strikes me as being more about male party culture than about their estimations of women.

Only insofar as putting down women and reasserting that women are second class at every opportunity is “male party culture”.  The guys who do this make absolutely sure that every one around them understands that they aren’t there because they think some woman is better than them, no sirree.  If it were just obnoxiousness, it would happen to men, but doesn’t.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  03:16 PM

Also, they don’t always say “show your tits”.  It’s often other statements that imply the only reason a woman could be on stage is for ogling.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  03:17 PM

“Show us your tits…”

Appropriate only in New Orleans, during Mardi Gras.

Comment #9: Richard Goblin  on  04/26  at  03:21 PM

Plus, ha, the chance of that actually happening is, as the hecklers know, zero.  So the hope that it could happen is not the motivation.  Plus, they aren’t asking women next to them to take their clothes off, so it’s not just that they are so socially retarded they think you can see tits just by asking.

We’re left with this: They are trying to re-establish the hierarchy by making reference to women’s membership in the sex class.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  03:25 PM

I actually just saw Neko Case a couple days ago, and there was, sadly, a bunch of this nonsense. Not as bad as in the article, but still lots of people yelling out various irritating things. I think this post is right on: it’s a dominance play, trying to more or less forcibly seize attention of the performer on stage. And even when the shouts aren’t overtly sexual, it still seems like a way of reducing status, since it’s a way of saying, basically, whatever you’re doing onstage is less important than that you respond to whatever asinine crap I’ve just yelled. The “It’s just a joke” stance is just a way to head off criticism at the pass.

Luckily Neko Case, being awesome, had a pretty good way of dealing with stuff like this. The fact that it happens at all is still pretty tooth-gnash-inducing, though.

Comment #11: inkybrain  on  04/26  at  03:31 PM

I had a couple of Neko case songs in my mp3 collection before a computer crash and loved them.  Had no idea what she looked like, though, until this thread.

It seems to my humble opinion that if you are a male het at one of her concerts and given to yelling out instructions which, you hope, will result in her doing something to arouse you, then it might behoove you to yell, “PUT ON A SUIT!!!!!”.

http://bullmurph.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/nekodeer_by_chris_buck.jpg

Comment #12: seeker6079  on  04/26  at  03:42 PM

“Show us your tits…”

Appropriate only in New Orleans, during Mardi Gras.

Sorry dude, not even then.  I know it’s supposedly “okay” in the time and place, but it only contributes to the culture of reestablishing women as subordinate and ornamental… and for a woman who lives and works in New Orleans as I used to do, that pretty much sucks.  Men would yell for me to show my tits while I was working (I was a tour guide), or grab parts of my body and be completely flummoxed when I’d spin around with a balled fist.
“Whaaaat, I’m just tryin to have a good time here….”
Yeah, me too, jerk.

Comment #13: Tanglethis  on  04/26  at  03:47 PM

Is there any reason why concert organizers can’t have a policy of ejecting these chodes from the concert?  Or are they too worried about pissing off useless fans?

Concerts already have issues with sexual assaults happening in the audience.  It seems like ejecting the obvious dick waggers would demonstrate concern for the safety of female audience members.

Comment #14: keshmeshi  on  04/26  at  03:53 PM

I was just reading that.  Why would those men be at a Neko Case show in the first place?  That’s what I don’t get.  I would think that even if an insecure, anxiously masculine guy enjoyed the music, he wouldn’t admit it and certainly wouldn’t attend a show.

Comment #15: SarahMC  on  04/26  at  04:11 PM

I’m not sure of why such guys go to concerts with women who are headlining anyway, either. This does remind me of another funny comeback from a musical duo, The Ditty Bops, being heckled at a concert when they are the opening act for a band with a different crowd. I don’t know that it’s automatically sexist heckling, but since it’s a rude guy heckling two women, my cynicism leads me to think there’s some sexism involved; either way, the comeback is great! It’s recorded online at the Internet Archive, so you can listen into it here:

http://www.archive.org/details/dittybops2005-03-04.flac16

Comment #16: Ben F.  on  04/26  at  04:22 PM

It’s not just dudes who yell. I listen mostly to women-made music, and go to those artists’ shows.  Depending on whose show I’m at, I can hear just as many if not more women yelling to the band members than men.  From both sexes it’s usually a variation of “I loooooove you!” or “marrrry meeee!”  I don’t think the women yelling those things are trying to put the performers in their place any more than the men are.

I saw Neko at Stubb’s a few weeks ago, and the couple of yells were indeed both from dudes.  Unfortunately I can’t remember what was yelled, because I couldn’t hear the details.  I do agree that she draws in guys who normally don’t go to hear women.  So many people construct “masculinity” to mean “not feminine” that guys know to avoid going to girly shows lest they be tagged as teh ghey.  Neko lets them have a pass because of her tomboyishness, something like “hey, she’s not like _______, she’s into cars, wearing jeans, and getting her hands dirty!”

OT about Neko : she started her tour here in Austin, only a few days after a nasty mesocyclone plowed through north Austin.  I was hoping she would mention it given the album’s subject matter, but she didn’t.  Anyway, if you haven’t seen her yet on this tour really should, it would be worth your while.  I would bet money that with this album she’ll be nominated again for a Grammy.

Comment #17: PWI  on  04/26  at  04:26 PM

Men would yell for me to show my tits while I was working (I was a tour guide), or grab parts of my body and be completely flummoxed when I’d spin around with a balled fist.
“Whaaaat, I’m just tryin to have a good time here….”

Ahh, I love the smell of privilege in the morning (afternoon) after a long night of drinking.

The guys doing this also probably think it’s a compliment. Like, “I want to see your tits, you should be happy and feel proud. Oh come on, why are you upset? Jesus, I was joking (now that I know you’re not really gonna show me your tits.)

It reminds me of the lyric from a Nelly song when he tells one of the women there’s a stripper pole in the basement and she’s like “what?” His response: I’m just kidding like Jason… Unless you gone do it

I know she’s got a wide, queer audience but does anyone know what happens at a Peaches concert? Does she get heckled like this? And if so, what’s her response?

Comment #18: UltraMagnus  on  04/26  at  04:30 PM

I was watching a Youtube video of an old Johnny Cash concert - I wish now I’d kept track of it - and someone from the audience, impatient at some delay, called out something blurred, which was probably (from Cash’s response) some kind of sexual innuendo. (Sounded aggressive, anyway.)

Cash said, sounding very mellow, “Well, thank you. I like you too. I like you too. I like June Carter better, but I like you too.” And the audience laughed - and the heckler probably felt like an idiot - and I bring this up as an example of how it’s different for male musicians than female ones.

Comment #19: Jesurgislac  on  04/26  at  04:32 PM

Is there any reason why concert organizers can’t have a policy of ejecting these chodes from the concert?  Or are they too worried about pissing off useless fans?

Considering the gender, demeanor and mission of the typical concert hall security person, I wouldn’t hold my breath.  They’re there to be protect the performers and property, not you.

...demonstrate concern for the safety of female audience members.

HA HA HA HA HA HA

Why would those men be at a Neko Case show in the first place?

Because their girlfriends ‘made’ them go, and women are such awful, bitchy creatures it’s easier to go along and act like a prick at the show than to just say you’re not interested up front.

Sorry to be so cranky; it’s Cynical Sunday at Casa Kraut.

Comment #20: Sour Kraut  on  04/26  at  04:35 PM

my husband and I ran into this at the last Murder By Death show we attended.  a few non-fan-seeming men went from constantly telling Sarah how beautiful she is (she started to look uncomfortable) to making what sounded like rape threats, at the front of the stage.  after a bit I got so pissed, that I said something to the idiots; unfazed, they decided to say threatening crap to me and making fun of my husband, in response. oh, and at least two tried to climb on stage to get near her. I should’ve just alerted bar staff that the men needed to be removed.

Comment #21: holly. e. r.  on  04/26  at  04:37 PM

Ugh, that pisses me off royally, because I fucking love Neko Case.  Which I recognize is shallow, that it makes me madder when it happens to an artist I really admire than to others I don’t care as much about.  I haven’t seen any such behavior at the Neko shows I’ve been to, thankfully.

Comment #22: smadin  on  04/26  at  04:40 PM

PWI-

It’s not the yelling, it’s WHAT they’re yelling.  It’s a rock concert; yelling is part of the experience and it is expected, nay encouraged, by the band (you want an energetic crowd after all). 

I’m getting a whiff of dis-ingenuousness from you, which I hope is just my troll calibrations set too high, and you merely just misread what Amanda was saying.

Comment #23: Antigone  on  04/26  at  04:41 PM

Antigone, I presumed “yell” to mean the interjections between songs.  These people don’t yell during the songs, they yell at the performers when they think those people can hear them.  After reading some of the crap others hear at shows, I guess I’ve been fortunate to hear little of the obnoxious, over-the-top sexual stuff.  It may well be that those particular guys do so for the just the reasons that Amanda thinks.  Just yelling come-ons to the performers by themselves are not a gender thing, though, which I was trying (not too well, apparently), to point out.

Comment #24: PWI  on  04/26  at  05:00 PM

PWI, Amanda is talking about something quite different. You’re sort of presenting a non-sequitur here.

Comment #25: annejumps  on  04/26  at  05:09 PM

Appropriate only in New Orleans, during Mardi Gras.

Sorry dude, not even then.

I was being sarcastic.  (Granted, sarcasm translates poorly in this medium.)

Comment #26: Richard Goblin  on  04/26  at  05:09 PM

Hearing shit like this makes me glad I live in San Francisco.  Being in the “underground” hardcore/punk scene, we really do try to live by and enforce the no sexist/racist/homophobic crap rule.  There are so many strong women and gay people who book shows, play in bands and participate in the scene that heckling like this is really anomalous.  When it does happen, the perpetrator is (if he’s lucky) talked to, or straight thrown out of the gig.  Not to say it’s a utopia, but I’ve played in a band with a female member before and it never an issue for us at all.  I imagine it’s more common in the bar scene, but in the warehouse/basement/punk-run venue scene things are pretty progressive. 
I think in this case, it’s inevitable that the “bigger” an artist gets, the worse (or at least more ignorant) the crowds are going to be.  For example, I’ve been a Cat Power fan for years and I used to treasure seeing her club gigs where everyone there knew about her issues with live performance and kept things quiet and mellow.  When I saw her at a big venue on the “We Are Free” tour, the whole thing was ruined by the mass of casual attendees who spent the whole show talking on their cellphones and shouting between songs.  Totally ruined the atmosphere of the performance.
I agree with PWI to the extent that I agree that these assholes are showing off when they’re shouting at performers.  I don’t know who they think they’re impressing, and I’m not sure how to analyze that behavior because it’s so alien to me personally.  The only thing I shout at bands is requests and “fuck yeah”!

Comment #27: Loomer  on  04/26  at  05:25 PM

Ha ha, then I read the article and find out the comment in question was shouted IN SAN FRANCISCO.  I hereby apologize for that particular a-hole. 
I like to think if she’d been playing the Haz-mat Warehouse things would have gone down much differently (though the take at the door would have been significantly smaller).

Comment #28: Loomer  on  04/26  at  05:45 PM

It’s not just dudes who yell. I listen mostly to women-made music, and go to those artists’ shows.  Depending on whose show I’m at, I can hear just as many if not more women yelling to the band members than men.  From both sexes it’s usually a variation of “I loooooove you!” or “marrrry meeee!” I don’t think the women yelling those things are trying to put the performers in their place any more than the men are.

The annoying thing about Rob Harvilla’s piece that he is deliberately conflating different types of shouting. “Take off your shirt” is clearly demeaning and not okay; “I love you Neko” is just bog-standard concert fanboyish/fangirlism.

Comment #29: DJA  on  04/26  at  05:47 PM

Er… “fanboyism,” not “fanboyish.”

Comment #30: DJA  on  04/26  at  05:48 PM

Oooh!  I’m seeing Neko Case tonight (Mpls) and I’ll have to see if this happens during the concert, especially since it always seems like my best friend and I get seated next to the a-holes who do this kind of thing.

Comment #31: tigi  on  04/26  at  06:00 PM

Amanda, you’re right, that it’s less about the tits than the posturing. I stand by my point that it’s more about the asshole guy than the objectified girl. Point taken—its not that the guy wants to see tits, its that he wants to feel empowered to demand tits, whether he gets them or not.

It isn’t that “women” and “musicians I admire” are mutually exclusive, its that the boy’s self-image and sexual-identity is dependent on women-as-objects.

Which is maybe not different than your original point.

Comment #32: humanadverb  on  04/26  at  06:01 PM

Yeah, it isn’t different than your original point… just a better unpacked explanation of what “being sexually aggressive” means.

And I love that L7 story. They rock.

Comment #33: humanadverb  on  04/26  at  06:03 PM

Why would those men be at a Neko Case show in the first place?  That’s what I don’t get.  I would think that even if an insecure, anxiously masculine guy enjoyed the music, he wouldn’t admit it and certainly wouldn’t attend a show.

Because they haven’t really confronted their own issues.  They probably don’t think of themselves as sexist—-most men I’ve known who have almost no female musicians in their collection just automatically assume that’s because there’s a lack of female talent.  They find this exception to their rule, they show up, and just like I said in the post, they confront how it makes them feel to have their internal, subconscious boundaries crossed.  And they don’t like it.

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  06:11 PM

They find this exception to their rule, they show up, and just like I said in the post, they confront how it makes them feel to have their internal, subconscious boundaries crossed.  And they don’t like it.

I have no doubt that this is true, but I do not understand this at all. Talent is the sexiest thing there is. Feeling threatened by female talent is some sad-ass shit.

Comment #35: DJA  on  04/26  at  06:20 PM

From both sexes it’s usually a variation of “I loooooove you!” or “marrrry meeee!” I don’t think the women yelling those things are trying to put the performers in their place any more than the men are.

In my experience, women don’t yell those things so much as teenage girls do. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard a grown woman do that, and I think I’ve been to quite enough shows to have a good sample size. I’m willing to excuse teenagers (of both genders) who do such things, because they’re immature. Not growing out of that immaturity is not excusable.

Comment #36: Lauren O  on  04/26  at  06:23 PM

On top of her tomboyishness, I think Case is a “safe” female musician for a number of reasons. 

1) She’s alt country, which is really dude-centric—-alt country shows often make me uneasy, because, of all indie/punk stuff I go to, it has the highest percentage of couples where the woman quietly shadows her man.  It’s easily got the biggest audience of that particular kind of yuppie that considers themselves liberal and hip, but still end up playing gender Republicans.

2) She hails from the New Pornographers, which is a great band, but is also one of those bands that’s male-dominated and no threat to the sexist indie rock fan who doesn’t think he’s sexist. 

3) She’s the girlfriend fantasy object du jour.  She’s beautiful, but not in an unattainable way, and she’s smart and funny.  I dare you therefore to find a single male-written profile of her that doesn’t dwell on how hawt she is and how the profiler is smitten.  This gives some guys permission to like her, but unfortunately, just because a guy is attracted to smart, funny, beautiful and talented doesn’t mean he’s entirely comfortable with such a woman getting more praise and attention than men.  I’m sure the shadowing girlfriends I see at a lot of shows are smart, funny, etc., but they still don’t step out in front, you know?

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  06:24 PM

None of this means that all guys who like her, or even most, are dicks.  But it only takes a few guys in throes of gender panic fueled by alcohol consumption to derail a show.  Or troll a blog for that matter.

Comment #38: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  06:25 PM

God DAMN, it feels good to erase everything a troll writes in one click of a button.  Plus, it’s doubly funny when one shows up in a thread to do exactly what I’m singling out as obnoxious.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  06:47 PM

In my experience, women don’t yell those things so much as teenage girls do


Lauren O - I agree that it’s probs mostly younger women.  Of the ones close enough for me to see, they mostly seem like college students.  The University of Texas is only 20 or so blocks north of Austin’s main bar/concert venue area, and it’s primarily students who fill the better shows, so that makes sense (“better” being cutting-edge acts, and not the staid retreads that draw the more conservative, suburban audiences.)

Comment #40: PWI  on  04/26  at  06:54 PM

God DAMN, it feels good to erase everything a troll writes in one click of a button.

Shit, I thought you meant me for a minute.  I’m sorry for the way I came into the thread; I read the piece in the Voice several days ago and was going primarily off of that.  After re-reading what you wrote, I agree with you.  Time to stop living down to my nick, I suppose.


Excellent three points about Neko at 5:24. 


3) She’s the girlfriend fantasy object du jour.

This.  I doubt these dudes would be gushing about Adele (she’s not at all unattractive, but she certainly doesn’t fit the big P’s beauty standard.)

Comment #41: PWI  on  04/26  at  07:17 PM

Yeah. I saw this happen at Sleater Kinney once - someone had made and was selling t-shirts of the band with exaggerated fake breasts, and Corin Tucker was annoyed and rightfully so. I felt like there was just an atmosphere of shock that a woman would say out loud she was pissed at being objectified like that.

Comment #42: brklyngrl  on  04/26  at  08:32 PM

The only thing I shout at bands is requests

Show us your hits!

Comment #43: Zarquon  on  04/26  at  08:54 PM

I liked her music before I saw her, later figured out that she was the attractive woman who walked a three-legged greyhound in my neighborhood, and of course I think even more kindly of her now.  All I know for sure is that she’s a wonderful woman and a great singer and I’m kind of glad I didn’t know it was her I was smiling and waving at all those times because she could probably use some anonymity now and then.

I often feel badly for celebrities and the crap they have to deal with, but am glad that some are centered enough to take charge of their own lives and handle things quite well.

Comment #44: 3letterjon  on  04/26  at  08:57 PM

God DAMN…

Classy

Jesus Fucking Christ, you better believe it.

I’m sorry, I know I shouldn’t feed them, but it was just calling to me.

Comment #45: Godless Heathen  on  04/26  at  09:00 PM

And while it is disrespectful, it isn’t truly about disrespect. Really, I don’t think the status of the woman gets much consideration around amped up chodes,

But that’s the point.  These assholes live in such a state of male privilege that they feel free to shout shit at any woman, even one they paid to hear sing.  It is still disrespect, even if it’s directed at the entire class of women.

Comment #46: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  04/26  at  09:23 PM

She’s alt country, which is really dude-centric—-alt country shows often make me uneasy, because, of all indie/punk stuff I go to, it has the highest percentage of couples where the woman quietly shadows her man.  It’s easily got the biggest audience of that particular kind of yuppie that considers themselves liberal and hip, but still end up playing gender Republicans.

YES. YES!
This is also why you’ll get a lot of rockabilly/alt-country/“rocker” type who go to choaerific places here in Seattle like the Mars Hill Church.
*barf*

Comment #47: Danica Lefse Queen  on  04/26  at  09:24 PM

Note from Geezerland:

Thanks!  I never heard of Neko before.  Download some; yay!

Is it o.k. if I go to the concert and yell, “I think I love you?”

Comment #48: Magis  on  04/26  at  09:35 PM

But it only takes a few guys in throes of gender panic fueled by alcohol consumption to derail a show.

If I had any relevant observation at all it would be few men are such pricks.  Then Amanda hit it out of the park, it’s so true, it’s doesn’t matter if it’s a small percentage, it just takes a few to totally ruin it.

[sigh] I don’t get this feeling threatened or diminished by an accomplished female guitarist performing somthing I could never do.  So the fuck what? 

Looking over my own behavior, rarely—I mean once or twice a year—I slip up and reverently say “ouch” at a figure I like on the bike path.  Other than that I often tell women they look “pretty” or “very nice” in a bright, happy way.  Telling a woman she looks “beautiful” is inappropriate, even though they are the word seems to convey being besotted, too powerfully admiring, women don’t like it.

Nice post, thank you.  Please have a great week.

Comment #49: paradox  on  04/26  at  09:49 PM

I also saw Neko at Stubb’s last month. I’m glad to report that I didn’t hear any objectifying yells coming from my general vicinity.

I don’t remember exactly how I discovered her music — it was right after Fox Confessor came out, I think — but I was certainly a fan long before I ever knew what she looked like. Even now that I do, I’m still more interested in her voice and songwriting chops than in her looks.

And yeah, the idea of being sexually intimidated by a female performer is completely foreign to me.

Comment #50: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  04/26  at  10:21 PM

Mages…is…

Comment #51: Magis  on  04/26  at  11:31 PM

Wonder what would happen if women attending male band concerts started yelling “Show us your cocks!” Why isn’t talent enough for some people? Why are some people such jerks?

Comment #52: Jim Palmer  on  04/26  at  11:34 PM

Mages, I suspect that even if one could pick up a “How Not To Be A Sexist Asshole” guide at Barnes & Noble, you wouldn’t bother reading it.

Comment #53: Clio  on  04/27  at  12:14 AM

There is one case where it’s acceptable to shout “show us your tits”: to a birdkeeper showing their birds.

Although the only bird show I actually know if is a raptor show. But if they did songbirds, show us your tits would be good. smile Or a request for boobies at a sea bird show.

For that matter, what ever happened to the occasional bird photo here—did that go away with the emplacement of the stick rule?

... I like birds.

Comment #54: Samantha Vimes  on  04/27  at  12:26 AM

There are plenty of objective rules, starting with DONT BE A SEXIST BIGOT.

We don’t have to explain any more of it to you.  If you are too dumb to think the two or three thinks that it takes to steer clear of making an ass of yourself around a woman, a gay person, a transperson, a person of color, an interracial couple, or a gay couple, then we can’t help you.

Comment #55: Ms Kate  on  04/27  at  12:30 AM

Is it o.k. if I go to the concert and yell, “I think I love you?”

Not at a Neko Case gig. At a David Cassidy gig, sure.

Comment #56: Angus Johnston  on  04/27  at  12:44 AM

The only thing I shout at bands is requests

“Paint my house!”
“Solve the four colour problem!”

Maybe that’s just me…

Comment #57: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  04/27  at  01:18 AM

I don’t remember exactly how I discovered her music — it was right after Fox Confessor came out, I think — but I was certainly a fan long before I ever knew what she looked like. Even now that I do, I’m still more interested in her voice and songwriting chops than in her looks.

I heard her first on KEXP.  If you haven’t given KEXP a listen, I highly recommend it.  kexp.org.

I had no idea what she looked like until I saw a youtube clip last week.

Comment #58: Jake Squid  on  04/27  at  01:39 AM

Wonder what would happen if women attending male band concerts started yelling “Show us your cocks!”

Happened at the late great Blue Flamingo (formerly in Austin) one night.  I think it was a Lower Class Brats show.  Great time.

Comment #59: Richard Goblin  on  04/27  at  01:42 AM

It probably says something about normalized this sexist shit is that I’ve been at probably a half dozen shows where stuff like this has happened and I’ve never thought more about it than to wish that whoever was doing it would STFU. Like ... it never even occurred to me to ask why you would pay good money to go to a show and demean the person providing your entertainment. It was just ... that’s how guys like that are. Fuck.

I do love that story about the tampon. I had forgotten that one.

Comment #60: chingona  on  04/27  at  02:04 AM

So instead, the “show your tits” guys end up hanging in the back, feeling weirded out, though they can’t quite explain why. 

Chicken:egg::demanding attention:displaying gender hostility

The guys in the back are weirded out because they’re not accustomed to being in a situation where they can’t demand everyone’s attention.

Comment #61: Quaker in a Basement  on  04/27  at  02:41 AM

Please do not respond to trolls.  Unlike the lovable humans who run this site, the trolls have nothing to do but make up new emails and registration names for the sole purpose of leaving their worthless comments.  Do not respond. Pity men who have no life, no purpose, and have never enjoyed the touch of a woman, and therefore have nothing to do but spend endless hours trying to evade our comment registration.  Don’t respond.  You’re only aiding their deep, sad mental illnesses.  They need help before they go McVeigh. What they don’t need is you justifying their delusions.

They are hateful people, and I understand that pity seems wasted.  But try.

Comment #62: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  04:08 AM

Or maybe the dudes just think that since she’s been known to exhibit her breasts that it’s “OK” to ask to see them ...

http://cdn.stereogum.com/img/nekocase_pic4.jpg
http://stereogum.com/archives/buy-neko-cases-panties_005453.html

... kinda like the whole “Well, she slept with so-and so, she’ll probably fuck me,” or the mentality that you can’t rape a prostitute or a stripper—cause it’s not rape, or something.

But then I think that there are plenty of female performers who haven’t shown their breasts at any point in their careers, and I know they’ve had these same jeers at some point, so you’re probably onto something here.

Comment #63: Guav  on  04/27  at  09:16 AM

Let’s face it, in the Venn Diagram of Douchebaggery™, there’s bound to be a lot of overlap between no-talent attention-whore hecklers/trolls and insecure fratboy-style misogynists.

Comment #64: Gracchus.  on  04/27  at  10:17 AM

Sadly, conservative trolls largely just wish they were insecure frat boys.  The ones who hang out here are militia-joining types who’ve never had a woman fuck them without being paid up front.

Comment #65: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  10:44 AM

My initial reaction to this was, do misogynists really buy tickets to Neko Case shows to heckle her?  I mean, these aren’t easy tickets to get in my neck of the woods.  I have a hard time seeing some asshole frat boy competing for tickets for a chance to yell, “show me your tits”.

That said, if you want to see them, Neko’s hardly shy.

Which is *NOT* saying heckling like that is deserved, only I find entirely bizarre in the context presented here.

And yes, I’ve been to a lot shows where women yelled me your cock or some variant.  I don’t think they’re male hating women.  I think they’re the same out of control asshole you, Amanda, have highlighted here.  I would tend to think this is just the same broader phenomenon, some people, of both sexes, are just assholes and tend ruin all kinds of shows with their self-important bullshit.

But maybe that’s just me.

Comment #66: ice weasel  on  04/27  at  10:48 AM

I have to say that audiences of rowdy men respond better to a woman asking them to grow up than they do to a man telling them to grow up.  Kim Deal (with the Breeders at the time) told people she wasn’t up there to be pelted with things, and it stopped.  Men up on stage have a harder time asking for civility, especially since they’re supposed to be tough enough to stand it.  They end up saying wishy-washy stuff about how uncool it is that the performers can’t get the right environment, or have what will be thought of as Axl Rose hissy fits (even over very appropriate subjects such as a desire not to be electrocuted by the microphone, as he did in Phoenix once.)  And an authority figure man?  Forget it.  If a chief of security for a venue comes onstage to ask that something stop, the audience will do exactly the opposite.

Mobs suck.

Comment #67: 3letterjon  on  04/27  at  11:26 AM

In my experience, women don’t yell those things so much as teenage girls do. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard a grown woman do that, and I think I’ve been to quite enough shows to have a good sample size. I’m willing to excuse teenagers (of both genders) who do such things, because they’re immature.

Perhaps not the yelling, but…

Although it’s become more a joke over time than an actual come-on, there’s a reason the words “Tom Jones” and “panties” often occur in close proximity.

Comment #68: KeithM  on  04/27  at  11:27 AM

My almost seventy-year-old godmother took a homemade “You Inspire Me” sign to a Gordon Lightfoot concert and still cries over Buddy Holly as if she was his fanclub president, so I don’t think some things get outgrown.  Heroes and idols and all the rest don’t always respond to reason and decorum, though which behaviors count as inexcusable remains pretty constant.

Comment #69: 3letterjon  on  04/27  at  11:43 AM

My almost seventy-year-old godmother took a homemade “You Inspire Me” sign to a Gordon Lightfoot concert

Damn, that is too cool.  One grandmother doesn’t believe in using musical instruments (Church of Christ) and the other has thing for Travis Tritt.  My own mum is a rabid James Taylor fan, but since she’s the daughter of the CoC grandmother, making and holding up a fan sign is just not proper.

I’ve heard similar ‘Drunk Male Prick’ things in Ani Defranco concerts in these parts. But you usually only hear it once.  I suspect the audience promptly drags the prick out and beats him in the parking lot.  They’re tolerant people, but you don’t mess with Righteous Babe.

Comment #70: idiosynchronic  on  04/27  at  12:36 PM

3letterjon:

I have to say that audiences of rowdy men respond better to a woman asking them to grow up than they do to a man telling them to grow up.

You raise an interesting point. The last time Nickelback was getting heckled and the singer said something about it, he got hit in the head with a bottle.

Hecklers tend to be guys. When a heckler wants to fuck with a male performer, he’ll yell offensive shit or throw things—my friend’s band routinely got equipment unplugged & yelled at (and because they were vegan, burgers and yogurt thrown at them).

If a heckler wants to fuck with a female performer, he’ll generally have enough sense to not do anything physical, but he’ll instead yell things that he thinks would bother a female—things of a sexual nature.

Not sure why the male motivation to heckle a female would be different than the motivation to heckle a male—basically, hecklers are stupid assholes.

Comment #71: Guav  on  04/27  at  12:57 PM

ice, I explained why I think they do it.  They don’t really think they’re sexists with issues.  They probably don’t even consciously realize that they’re threatened by powerful women.

Comment #72: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  01:35 PM

It’s really sad that shit like this goes on.  It’s tough enough in this day and age making a living as a musician.  Women musicians face the additional hardship of sexist hooting from neanderthals in the audience.

BTW, as a unapologetic guitar geek, I am madly lusting after the mid-60’s Gibson tenor guitar Neko is holding in the picture.

Comment #73: "Fair and Balanced" Dave  on  04/27  at  01:42 PM

I heard someone yell that at Laura Carter during a Jack-O-Nuts gig once. Not sure if that was heckling or just an in-joke though. Laura almost always showed us her tits - and everything else - by the end of the show. Plus if they didn’t know her they probably weren’t sure if she was female or not until she did show her tits.

Just about the least sexy stripteases I’ve ever seen (more of a “rending ones clothes” than a “striptease” really). They were, however, some of the most powerful stage performances I’ve ever encountered. God damn they rocked. RIP Laura.

Comment #74: Sarcastro  on  04/27  at  01:48 PM

I love, love, love Neko Case!!  She’s an amazing artist who captured Tacoma WA’s spirit (pretty much where I was born) and made it heartbreakingly beautiful.  It saddens me to hear that a bunch of neanderthals are now mobbing her shows—the times that I’ve seen her have been at smaller venues (the UW Madison’s Student Unions and Bimbo’s in SF) where there don’t tend to be many jackasses in the audience.

It doesn’t surprise me though—it seems like she’s had near stalkerish fans from the beginning. 

These anecdotes also remind me of a story from my time in Madison WI.  We lived across the street from this bar Cafe Montmartre, and we were sitting out front when Shirley Manson sat down with some friends next to our table.  We were excited, and said hi and stuff, and it was largely a great little moment.  But across the street there started gathering a crowd of onlookers, some of them taking photos and calling their friends, and this one guy who must have been in his 30’s started giving Manson a double-middle finger salute.  He just wouldn’t stop, and his girlfriend or wife was chiding him and getting all embarrassed.  It was weird, I didn’t understand why a grown man would be so infantile, but I think I’m getting a better picture of it from Amanda’s post—I think he didn’t like Garbage and his girlfriend did, and it was his way of putting her in her place or something like that.

Comment #75: Dr. Locrian  on  04/27  at  02:04 PM

Small correction:  I just remembered that yes, there are lot of jackasses in the audience at the UW Madison Student Union, but there weren’t at the Neko Case show.  I saw Cat Power play solo in the Rathskellar for a free show, and I knew it would be a train wreck from moment one, and it was.  Tons of people had no idea who this person mumbling into a microphone and playing the piano was, and heckled her mercilessly.

Comment #76: Dr. Locrian  on  04/27  at  02:08 PM

There’s also a kind of Ironic Douchebag effect that kicks in—I remember people in some event at Penn shouting “Show your tits” at Judith Rodin, the university president.  I guess it was supposed to be “shocking” and “inappropriate” as a quotation of a quotation of something like Mardi Gras or the cheap seats at a sporting event.

Comment #77: FlipYrWhig  on  04/27  at  03:14 PM

Weird and sad. When I saw here in Iowa City all I could think about was that voice and those songs. The crowd largely behaved itself as far as I know. (It was as “Neko Case.” Is it different when it’s “The New Pornographers”?)
A couple of years ago we went to see k.d. lang in Des Moines. After one of the lusher numbers, or maybe it was “Crying,” a female voice in the audience, rang out,

“Nice shoes,” she shouted.

lang responded, “Thanks.”

Another female voice, “You can park them under my bed any time.”

lang, “Thank you, too.”

General hilarity ensued. It’s all about power differentials.

Comment #78: Patrick  on  04/27  at  04:04 PM

Unwelcome education Re: the tenor guitar- It’s pretty much what it looks like- a short scale 4 string guitar.  I think Neko tunes hers like the 4 high strings of a six string (“Chicago tuning”), but they were originally tuned CGDA, like a tenor banjo or a viola, which is how I tune mine. They were designed to allow tenor banjo players to double up on instruments without learning new fingerings back in the dixieland/hot jazz era.  Her Gibson is nice, but I covet the Gretsch Duojet she uses on her albums more. Ani DiFranco plays one as well, I believe.

It’s a damn shame that people are jerkasses.  I don’t really have a lot to add there, aside from seconding the idea that it isn’t about seeing boobs in anything more than the most superficial way.

Also: That is a great photo. When you see her perform, her outsize presence makes you forget how tiny she is, and I think the photographer captured that very well.

Comment #79: Gaslight  on  04/27  at  08:49 PM

I have noticed this type of thing with sonic youth and other female singers.  It is annoying.

I think the Neko Case situation is a little bit different:

Thursday’s between-song discussion focused on the Grim Reaper, thanks to an audience member who yelled, “Don’t fear the Reaper!,” presumably in reference to the 1976 Blue Öyster Cult track. The audience learned what exactly is under the Reaper’s black robe, his relation to steel player Jon Rauhouse and where he puts his scythe while mackin’ with Neko.

“Don’t fear the Reaper!”?  Seriously? Neko Case needs to stop encouraging her stupid-assed fans.

Comment #80: lemmy caution  on  04/27  at  09:40 PM

lemmy caution, it’s fucked up telling women who want to perform that they have to “act like ladies” and avoid talking about sex except in the context of love, or they deserve what they get.

Comment #81: oldfeminist  on  04/28  at  12:56 AM

Crap, I have Neko tickets; it’s the day after my birthday and I really don’t want to spend the night fuming about sexist trolls instead of enjoying the show. I hope nothing like this happens.

Lemmy, really? She brought it upon herself, then? The only thing Neko needs to do is to be able to say, do, and get photographed in whatever she pleases without being forced to experience male entitlement first-hand.

Comment #82: elena  on  04/28  at  01:12 AM

I would like to hear your psycho babble on what the motivation is for drunken females that shout vulgarities and grope male musicians.  Are they just scared, anxious trolls who can’t handle looking up to men, or….say, empowered women exercising their sex positive rights ?

Comment #83: h0tr0d  on  04/28  at  10:45 AM

Are they just scared, anxious trolls who can’t handle looking up to men, or….say, empowered women exercising their sex positive rights ?

I’m going to go with “figments of your fevered delusions”.

Comment #84: Sarcastro  on  04/28  at  11:46 AM

Patrick: That’s a great story.

Shorter h0tr0d: I’ve never heard of power differentials.

Comment #85: Nic_C  on  04/28  at  12:05 PM
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