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Next entry: Happy Mother’s Day! Previous entry: Friday Genius Ten “Releasing The Luddite Within” Edition

I’m anti-tradition, but…..

Wow, I rarely find myself disagreeing with PZ, Melissa, and Samhita, but I have to say that I don’t really see the problem with the American Academy of Pediatrics advising doctors to offer a “ritual nick” in lieu of the more serious forms of female circumcision that are often on offer in some other parts of the world.  The practice is something that is done in modern places that want to have a link to tradition without actually doing any real harm to little girls, from what I understand.  All they do is prick your genitals, or make a small cut that heals over, but nothing is removed.  You’re basically scratching the girl.  It’s not awesome—-and from what I understand, in some places they just wave the razor over the girl’s genitals but don’t touch her at all—-but comparing it to more severe forms of female circumcision troubles me. 

People do this sort of thing all the time, and usually they get applauded for it.  They realize a religious or cultural tradition is backwards—-silly at best, oppressive at worst—-and they’re faced with a choice.  Do they abandon their heritage, or do they compromise?  Obviously, being a big time atheist, I wish people abandoned their traditions more, but as someone who still gets a kick out of Christmas, I understand the urge to hang on to some stuff.  Doctors offering a relatively harmless, ritualistic alternative to more severe cutting could go a long way towards encouraging the view of it as merely a ritual, and not something that has to produce long-term damage to count. 

PZ titles his post “Whatever happened to ‘first, do no harm’?”  This is where I’m forced to jump in and point out that pediatricians mutilate genitals in a far more severe way all the time, and no one bats an eyelash.  Obviously, I’m referring to the more common form of circumcision performed in the U.S., where the foreskin of baby boys is removed.  This is far more dangerous and disfiguring than the little nick I suspect the AAP is talking about, and since it’s done on babies (I’m guessing the little girls involved in the ritual nicking will be a little older, which is usually tradition), the chances of botching it are way higher, since we’re talking very tiny penises.  Babies have had the heads of their penises cut off, or have lost the organ altogether.  Granted, botching is rare, but even one botched circumcision is too high a price to pay for what is a useless practice done in the name of tradition. 

And yet, I don’t blame pediatricians for offering it.  Why?  Because of the reasons the AAP suggested they should offer ritual nicking of girls—-it builds trust through cultural sensitivity.  And it’s safer than letting people take the practice underground.  Maybe doctors could try to eradicate the practice through refusing to offer it, but I suspect more than a few Jewish Americans would feel like they’re facing prejudice due to their religious traditions. 

The argument against the ritual nicking is that mothers who’ve been defending their daughters against fathers who demand circumcision will now be forced to give in.  But that cuts both ways (pardon the pun).  I suspect in as many or more situations where there’s a struggle, this compromise will allow both spouses to back down, with no real damage to the little girl.  Again, part of me wants a feminist riot of women around the world, wherein we stop dealing with men altogether until they start acting right, but the realist in me knows that’s simply not the way that change happens.  Turning an actual mutilation into a ritual hinting is a strong step in the right direction, though.  This is in fact part of the reasoning:

In some countries in which FGC is common, some progress toward eradication or amelioration has been made by substituting ritual “nicks” for more severe forms…..

Most forms of FGC are decidedly harmful, and pediatricians should decline to perform them, even in the absence of any legal constraints. However, the ritual nick suggested by some pediatricians is not physically harmful and is much less extensive than routine newborn male genital cutting. There is reason to believe that offering such a compromise may build trust between hospitals and immigrant communities, save some girls from undergoing disfiguring and life-threatening procedures in their native countries, and play a role in the eventual eradication of FGC. It might be more effective if federal and state laws enabled pediatricians to reach out to families by offering a ritual nick as a possible compromise to avoid greater harm.

Emphasis mine.

And it’s not like Western culture is so free of blatantly misogynist traditions, either.  Part of me wishes that we had a two minute nicking at the doctor instead of the entire painfully misogynist wedding tradition that persists in the name of tradition.  Everything from white gowns to bouquet tosses to the father “giving” the bride away—-all about reducing women to objects that exist strictly to fuck and marry men, if not suggesting that we’re male property.  But people hang onto it, because it’s tradition.  And we applaud every nudge in the right direction, from refusing to be given away to keeping your name, instead of suggesting that anything but a marriage boycott for all is inadequate. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 03:46 PM • (156) Comments

I think most Jews have circumcisions performed by a mohel, not by a pediatrician in the hospital. There’s no doubt a nick is better than female circumcision, but I remain flummoxed that we have any rituals that involve bringing a sharp object near anyone’s genitalia. I’m all about abandoning tradition.

Comment #1: maurinsky  on  05/07  at  03:53 PM

I hate discussing this issue because people tend to have so little information about it, and also to be really moralistic about anyone who disagrees. The western feminist perspective can be limiting and unhelpful on this one.

I agree with you on the theory behind this, although I don’t really feel like I have enough information to be sure about its implementation, particularly in the US.

Comment #2: Mandolin  on  05/07  at  03:59 PM

Why are we supposed to care if religious people feel discriminated against for their stupid beliefs and traditions? Fuck religious traditions, especially if they involve cutting people up.

Comment #3: Entomologista  on  05/07  at  04:04 PM

Circumcision is hardly useless, any more than appendectomy or tonsillectomy is today.  Admittedly, it has been done for ritual reasons, but it has benefits aside from the very rare risks.

Comment #4: Crissa  on  05/07  at  04:09 PM

It’s all genital mutilation.  It should all be banned for those not old enough to give consent.  This is EXACTLY why I bring up the male practice when FGM is raised - not because “its about the menz” as I have been thoughtlessly attacked for but because LEGAL PRECEDENT ON CIRCUMCISION WILL NOT STAY GENDER BLIND.

Comment #5: Ms Kate  on  05/07  at  04:13 PM

Crissa @4: Please explain the “benefits” of female circumcision, while I suppress my nausea.  Feel free also to try to justify male circumcision, for extra credit.

Comment #6: BABH  on  05/07  at  04:16 PM

” Fuck religious traditions, especially if they involve cutting people up.”

Yeah, I agree. Fuck the traditions.

The hard line—“fuck your traditions, just knock it off”—is not helpful in actually getting people to knock it off. The hard line, which westerners have been attempting to take for quite a long time, including colonial laws, has resulted in variously (in different locations): driving the practice underground, having it done to younger and younger girls, making it so that people perceive circumcision as an act of defiance against colonialism, and spreading the tradition to areas that never traditionally practiced it. Yay.

Therefore, activists have been trying to try methods that will *actually* reduce the practice, rather than just making them feel satisfied because they said “fuck your traditions.” Educating women makes a difference. Giving them economic power to back up their education makes a bigger difference. And in some places, nicking has worked.

That doesn’t guarantee it’ll work here, but I generally am inclined to trust the inclinations of people who are actually working on the issue (and there are smart anti-racists and feminists working on it) over my own urge to make “fuck your traditions” the last legal word on things, even if that’s what would be most satisfying.

Comment #7: Mandolin  on  05/07  at  04:16 PM

And this is exactly why Pandagon is my favorite feminist blog by far. Thank you, Amanda. I’m a Pathan/Pashtun woman and that culture is extremely conservative and tradition-bound. I could be a hardcore secularist/humanist and reject everything I disagree with wholesale, but by making compromises and making arguments for lesser degrees of oppression, I can act as a progressive force within the community.

Comment #8: soupcon  on  05/07  at  04:17 PM

Nope - the Academy of Pediatrics is wrong on this one.  I would suspect that a family member who insists their daughter (living in the US) have evidence of FGM is not going to be satisfied with a “nick”.  The point of FGM is to insure the virginity of the unmarried girl and to insure that a married women is not going to have extramarital affairs - because vaginal intercourse is very painful.

As for baby boys being circumsized - this is totally stupid - and the vast majority of those circumsized in the US are not Jewish - so there is no religious rationale.

I asked my brother, who was circumsized as a baby, about the decision he (and his wife) went through regarding his two young sons.  He said they were circumsized as infants - so they would look like other boys.  Ugh.

Comment #9: CParis  on  05/07  at  04:20 PM

Just wanted to say thank you, Amanda, for offering an alternate perspective on this.  I’m torn on the issue myself, but I can see how AAP’s suggestion might lead to harm reduction, and I can’t help feeling a lot of the debate has been kneejerk horror and unrealistic expectations.

Comment #10: NicoleG  on  05/07  at  04:22 PM

And BABH, I can’t speak for Crissa but it’s fairly obvious to me she was only saying there are benefits to male circumcision.  Which is debatable, but a far cry from defending total clitoral mutilation.

Comment #11: NicoleG  on  05/07  at  04:26 PM

” The point of FGM is to insure the virginity of the unmarried girl and to insure that a married women is not going to have extramarital affairs - because vaginal intercourse is very painful..”

“The point of FGM?” No. There are different cultures and different manifestations and… different points. Part of the reason why western activism o the issue tends to be ineffective is people want to condense them down to one form and one point. This doesn’t work for the same reason that it’s generally ineffective to teach people how to cook borsht so they know how to make traditional Chinese food.

Take your next assertion—“vaginal intercourse is very painful”—seems to be making an assertion about infibulation. (If it’s attempting a broader point, then the description doesn’t match testimony from women in cultures that practice clitoral excision.) Infibulation is not performed in all cultures that practice FGC.

There’s no one-size-fits-all solution here, not if the goal is harm reduction.

Comment #12: Mandolin  on  05/07  at  04:27 PM

I know it’s not the same, but parents who pierce their babies ears alwats bugged me. I guess there’s always worse. And then there’s worse. They could just use vagazzles, but it might be even more cruel… :p

Comment #13: sirkowski  on  05/07  at  04:31 PM

You speak about building trust through cultural sensitivity, and I assume you mean building trust with the parents. What about building trust with that little girl?

Who is she going to turn to when she’s being abused or being forced into an arranged marriage or needs advice from a doctor who she can trust? The doctor has already shown quite clearly that he will side with her family against her interest on “cultural” issues.

Medical professionals should have as their highest priority the well being of their patient. There is a line to be drawn here, and that line is that in this country we do not support unnecessary medical procedures on children who have no capacity to consent. Ever. For any reason.

Comment #14: superbadgirl  on  05/07  at  04:33 PM

Does anyone know how much of a problem FGS is in America currently?  That seems like the most important data in figuring out if something like this is worth doing.  That FGS is practiced widely in other parts of world and these kinds of alternatives are good idea there seems irrelevant as to whether we should allow it here unless it’s also a big problem here with which we haven’t made strides using the absolute illegality model.

Comment #15: Victoria  on  05/07  at  04:35 PM

BABH, I think Crissa was referring to male circumcision.  While I am against male circumcision being performed on infants, and a lot of the supposed benefits don’t really have research backing them up, IIRC there is recent research that shows some reduction in the risk of infection when exposed to HIV during sex.  I have no idea what the rate of botched circumcisions is, but I think an argument can be made that if a person’s circumstances are such that exposure to HIV is very likely, the reduction in the risk of infection may be greater than the risks associated with the circumcision itself, and so in those cases it might be worth considering. 

Obviously, this isn’t an argument for circumcising infants, since ideally people could decide for themselves before becoming sexually active whether their risk of exposure is high enough to merit circumcision.  I just wanted to point out that, unlike female circumcision, there is some evidence that male circumcision has certain benefits.

Comment #16: mamram  on  05/07  at  04:36 PM

By the time I was twenty-two, I knew two men who had to have adult circumcision because their foreskins had not grown along with the rest of them and getting an erection was incredibly painful as a result. These were guys I knew well enough that they felt comfortable discussing the anatomy of their pecker with me (which is still baffling considering I had never seen or touched either pecker in question, but whatever. People feel comfortable around me I guess).

As I understand it, uncircumcised men in the US are a minority. So for every ten guys I know, maybe only four (or fewer) of them will be uncircumcised. Then I have to wonder, of those four remaining, how many of them had this exact same problem but didn’t feel comfortable explaining to me the details of having their bruce banner getting pinched in his clothes when he tried to turn into the incredible hulk.

I don’t think the solution is to cut up all the little baby penises, but I really shudder to think of how having too-tight foreskin would give a guy some serious hangups—after all, this problem is going to emerge just as they’re starting towards sexual maturity (when they’ve grown enough and start having raging boners all the time). And to have every sexual feeling linked inextricably with intense physical pain seems incredibly bad to me. Teenage boys are NOT going to want to discuss boner complications with their parents, and I can’t imagine mom and dad are going to check up on their son’s sexual development that late and ask if his foreskin is too tight.

I’m not saying this means that all baby boys need to be marched off for circumcision, it’s just something that I keep in mind when the online circumcision wars get going.

I reluctantly agree with you about the ritual “nicking.” I hate that I have to, but we have to live in the world we’re in, not pretend that everyone else lives in the world we would like. Having a generation of girls who are given the “ritual nick” will suck, but it will be a lot better than having their clits scraped off with broken bottles for sure, and hopefully the ritual will be seen as such a pointless and painful waste of time that they won’t bother passing it along to their daughters.

Comment #17: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/07  at  04:38 PM

Although it’s also worth pointing out that there are a lot of “cultural” practices that are forbidden in the United States that immigrants are expected to suck up and accept… like marrying your 12-year-old daughter off to some 41-year-old pervert. Male circumcision, as fraught as it is, at least has some sort of medical indication behind it. Female circumcision is all about control and making women suffer during sex.

Comment #18: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/07  at  04:41 PM

know it’s not the same, but parents who pierce their babies ears alwats bugged me.

It’s awful to say, but I’ve always associated that practice with minorities and poor white people.  As such, it really bugged me when my sister got her biracial daughters’ ears pierced.  With all the crap those girls are going to have to deal with, especially looking more Mexican than half-white/half-black and living in Arizona, it bothered me that it didn’t occur to my sister what other people would assume about little kids whose ears were pierced.  In any event, she did it entirely out of a desire to play dress up with her own children, and that’s just plain uncool.

Comment #19: keshmeshi  on  05/07  at  04:50 PM

Keshmeshi, it bothers you that people might think your nieces are Mexican?

For what it’s worth, my immigrant parents had my ears pierced when I was 2, and as an eight year old whose friends were all begging their parents to let them do the same, I was pretty happy with it.  I wouldn’t do it if I had kids, but it doesn’t seem like a big deal to me either way.  Lobe piercings are a pretty reversible body mod.

Comment #20: mamram  on  05/07  at  05:06 PM

We should stop cutting off bits of children’s genitals for non-medical reasons. Any excuse people have to pretend to cut bits off their kids but not really do it is probably a net plus.

Comment #21: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  05/07  at  05:06 PM

“Although it’s also worth pointing out that there are a lot of “cultural” practices that are forbidden in the United States that immigrants are expected to suck up and accept… like marrying your 12-year-old daughter off to some 41-year-old pervert.”

Yeah, but FGC is easier to conceal.

Also, it’s difficult to punish because it’s a one-time incident that usually happens outside the country, if what I’ve read is accurate. You have to figure out it’s going to happen beforehand in order to take productive action.

(Also, it’s not like we have no child marriage issues in the US.)

“Female circumcision is all about control and making women suffer during sex.”

I know it seems like it is, but it really isn’t. This sort of statement doesn’t help and can hurt efforts to ameliorate harm.

Comment #22: Mandolin  on  05/07  at  05:10 PM

Ms Kate @5:  I feel exactly the same way.  No one regardless of gender should be subject to non-consensual, medically unnecessary “surgery” like this.

Comment #23: Joshua  on  05/07  at  05:13 PM

I think it’s really damaging when people conflate this with infibulation. It’s a completely distinct practice performed by a different cultural group. What the AAP is trying to prevent is partial or complete clitoridectomy, which is an achievable goal. Bringing infibulation into the debate (e.g. any reference to making sex painful, enforcing virginity) muddies things considerably.

Comment #24: Djur  on  05/07  at  05:18 PM

“Second, I think that these sort of human rights violations are infinitely worse if they’re performed legally than if they’re performed illegally, all else being equal.”

All else is not equal. Driving the traditions underground makes it less likely that medical attention can be sought if things go wrong. It makes it more likely that cutting equipment will not be sterilized between uses, passing AIDS and other diseases.

(This probably won’t apply to the US, but in parts of Africa, driving traditions underground has made them more likely to be practiced on younger girls, which makes it less likely that the girls will develop a post-circumcision orgasmic sexuality, since collected data on Kikuyu women who’ve undergone clitoral excision suggests that women who have practice orgasming before surgery are more likely to be orgasmic afterward.)

Is any of that helpful?

Nicking may or may not be a good idea in the US, but it is not an inherently flawed concept as statements like “I think that even the ritual nicking is a violation of the girl’s rights, and you can’t violate someone’s rights as a means to anything, even the prevention of an even greater violation of their rights.” make it out to be. Don’t liberals pride themselves on the ability to see grey where it leads to harm reduction? Absolutist moralizing on this issue not only stalls progress, but historically has made things significantly worse.

I’ve got to get out of this thread or I’ll be here all day.

Comment #25: Mandolin  on  05/07  at  05:20 PM

“Female circumcision is all about control and making women suffer during sex.”

I know it seems like it is, but it really isn’t. This sort of statement doesn’t help and can hurt efforts to ameliorate harm.

Allow an incredibly sarcastic/increduluous Really!? here.

Really!? You don’t think FGM is about hatred/fear of female sexuality and a psychopathic desire to control/destroy a woman’s ability to experience sexual pleasure and autonomy?

Comment #26: Egnu Cledge  on  05/07  at  05:21 PM

I know this is a little OT, but thanks Mighty Ponygirl for your pecker story.  When our son was born my wife and I couldn’t think of any reason to get him circumcised, certainly not because of something a fucking ridiculous as religious tradition.

For a number of years, however, we had trouble with hygiene, ie. keeping the little winker clean.  He got infections several times that required treatment with antibiotic ointments.  In retrospect we should have had him circumscised. 

FEMALE circumcision, OTOH, is fucking barbaric, period.  Maybe I’m too pragmatic, but if nicking the whatever or waving a razor at the girl’s crotch results in fewer girls being subjected to this stone age anachronism, then I guess I’m in favor of it.

If you make the process so inconsequential that it amounts to just a “little ritual nick” it’ll be that much easier for the next generation to just drop the ritual completely.

Comment #27: ummeli  on  05/07  at  05:21 PM

Keshmeshi,
That comment was classist as hell. My white middle class family had my ears pierced because I was a bald little girl, and my mom was sick of explaining that I wasn’t a boy. Whatever. But to judge some practice as less than because low income/minority parents do it makes you look like an ignorant self-righteous fuck.  Heaven forbid, someone think you’re poor or a minority! There is nothing else worse in the world.

Comment #28: lizardbreath  on  05/07  at  05:21 PM

How would being circumcised prevent a tight foreskin? Circumcision removes the foreskin, ergo there is less skin there. I would think having all that extra skin in place and flapping around would give you more “room to grow”, as it were.

Comment #29: Egnu Cledge  on  05/07  at  05:25 PM

Why are we supposed to care if religious people feel discriminated against for their stupid beliefs and traditions? Fuck religious traditions, especially if they involve cutting people up.

Let us assume I have a young daughter of age for circumcision.  There are two medical practitioner in my community.  One is a certified doctor with a license and a degree who refuses to even speak of my genital mutilation custom.  Another is a crazy witch doctor whose first line of defense is a good leeching, and who is more than happily to take a machete to my daughter’s privates.  I was raised to believe that if my daughter’s genitals were not properly nicked, my crops would dry up and my cattle would die.  My mother’s genitals were mutilated, my sister’s genitals were mutilated, and my daughter has no reason to believe her genitals won’t be mutilated by the end of the week, too.

Who do you think I’m going to go to as my medical professional?

Six months from now there’s a dysentery outbreak.  My daughter gets sick.  Who is now her primary care provider?

Yeah, it’s a dumb tradition.  Yeah, in an ideal world it would be better to just abolish it completely.  But you’re working with a group of people who - had they been US citizens - would likely be voting straight ticket Sarah Palin.  The daughter is going to be mutilated one way or another.  We’re not talking about a country with anything remotely resembling Child Protective Services (hell, there’s a chance your child would be taken for NOT getting mutilated).  These are the cards you’re dealt.  You can’t moralize your way out of them.

Comment #30: Zifnab25  on  05/07  at  05:26 PM

In a recent cost/utility analysis that includes all medical rationale (from UTI, to cancer, to HIV risk) vs. costs/risks (botched circumcisions, death, infections, days hospitalized, etc.), the author concluded there is no medical reason to do male circumcision at birth. 

FGM is cultural.  MGM is cultural.  They are not the same (fuck the ‘what about the menz’ accusations), but we are talking about genitals and cutting, so there are similarities.  Of course we live in a patriarchal world so there ARE differences. 

pdf article link: 

http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2004/11/18/180294/Cost-Utility_Analysis_of_Neonatal_Circumcision_-_Van_Howe.pdf

Comment #31: Anarchist_mom  on  05/07  at  05:28 PM

point is, Amanda is right.  We all do fucked up shit because of tradition and culture.  Male circ is one, and is UNIQUELY american.  It’s one of many.  The AAP is being consistent here.

Comment #32: Anarchist_mom  on  05/07  at  05:34 PM

uh, just to clarify, it wasn’t “my” pecker story, as the pecker(s) in question were not attached to my body. :p

How would being circumcised prevent a tight foreskin? Circumcision removes the foreskin, ergo there is less skin there. I would think having all that extra skin in place and flapping around would give you more “room to grow”, as it were.

Egnu, the foreskin did not grow. That’s the point. The foreskin stayed the same size as the boy grew, and when it came time for an erection, the difference became noticeable.

Comment #33: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/07  at  05:34 PM

My only problem with the ritual “nicking” is that mother might be told that’s what will happen, and if not a licensed physician used, but someone else less trustyworthy, the father could bribe, the FGM would still take place under the guise of “nicking.”

Or that the “nicking” wouldn’t satisfy some family members who would then have the full procedure done.

FGM not only can destroy sexual pleasure for the woman, but can make childbirth dangerous, and the scarring and infections of FGM can cause many other medical problems.

Nicking doesn’t acheive what the cultural practice sought to: control female sexuality, so I wonder if would satisfy those who advocate it.

Comment #34: judybrowni  on  05/07  at  05:41 PM

Someone above said that Jewish people usually have mohels perform circumcisions. That’s not universally true. For the past two generations, my family has had its boy children circumcised in the hospital. I think moving the procedure into the hospital helped create emotional distance necessary to eventually give it up. It’s one thing to give up something that’s a big public deal, it’s a lot easier to quietly say “thanks but no thanks” in the hospital.

Comment #35: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  05/07  at  05:43 PM

Yes; it just sounded like the same thing would have happened without a foreskin. Scar tissue isn’t particularly stretchy, either. Didn’t mean to discount you or your story. I’d just never heard of that before. Should’ve googled first. Sorry.

Comment #36: Egnu Cledge  on  05/07  at  05:44 PM

I have heard too many stories of botched circumcisions in boys and men. I sure as fuck won’t approve of “nicks” if doctors manage to screw up on an organ that’s much easier to work with. Fuck bipartisanship.

Comment #37: kaje  on  05/07  at  05:46 PM

The same thing can happen with scar tissue.

Comment #38: mamram  on  05/07  at  05:46 PM

Don’t liberals pride themselves on the ability to see grey where it leads to harm reduction? Absolutist moralizing on this issue not only stalls progress, but historically has made things significantly worse.

We are talking about PZ Myers here, who has a “brand” to maintain as an anti-religious absolutist.

The thing is that traditions have a life of their own outside of whatever original purpose they were meant to serve: this is an advantage because mutilating the genitals is not nearly as important as the tradition/ceremony itself. Sounds like people are doing what’s rational here: preserving a ceremony which people care about while blunting the physical effects, which the people are willing to give up, if you let them.

Comment #39: Tyro  on  05/07  at  05:47 PM

@Mighty Ponygirl

Is foreskin not growing along with the penis a particularly common problem? I’m not circumcised, I’ve never had any problem even close to that, and I’ve never even heard of it until readying your comment, and generally speaking, the foreskin usually increases sexual pleasure for men (that’s my understanding of it).

If the problem is relatively rare, circumcision, which is a surgical procedure which carries inherent risks, shouldn’t be so widespread.

Comment #40: Elliot  on  05/07  at  05:48 PM

judybrowni, it won’t satisfy the hardcore pro-mutilation faction. That said, the nicking ritual is being proposed by doctors who work in communities that practice FGM. If they think they can save even a few girls by playing along with an admittedly ugly ritual, I think they should go for it.

Comment #41: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  05/07  at  05:48 PM

Well I should have read the press release first—I assumed the “nicking” would take place near, but not on the clitoris itself.

However since I’ve read that the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) is actually Advocating for U.S. Pediatricians to Perform Certain Types of Female Genital Mutilation (FGM)“such as pricking or minor incisions of girls’ clitorises”—how fucking minor can an incision be on something so small with so many damn nerve endings?

(And damn, how easy for any minor incision to go awry!)

It also undermines the courageous refusal of the mothers who have resisted FGM for their daughters:

“Advocates also fear that mothers who have until now resisted community pressure and not subjected their daughters to FGM in the U.S., in part because of the anti-FGM law, could be forced under the AAP guidelines to ask pediatricians to “nick” their daughters’ clitorises if it is legally permitted. The AAP must revoke its statement, which comes at a time when several African and European countries have noted the increasing dangers of medicalization of FGM and specifically banned medical personnel from performing any form of FGM.” 

So, no, I have to weigh in with agreeing with those who believe this is a bad decision for a multitude of reasons.

Comment #42: judybrowni  on  05/07  at  05:52 PM

mutilating the genitals is not nearly as important as the tradition/ceremony itself.

I have mixed feelings, but I’m somewhat inclined to agree with Amanda on the pragmatism of this effort.

However, mutilating women’s genitals is the tradition. It’s the whole point of it. I think it still would be even if you removed the religious motivations, since it’s about misogyny at its core (although the two are pretty inextricable). For example, you’ll notice that even though hardly anybody in America circumcises boys for religious reasons, no one is proposing a foreskin “nick” in an effort to preserve both “tradition” and intact genitals.

Comment #43: Egnu Cledge  on  05/07  at  05:56 PM

If it’s a ritual cut vs. no cut at all, then obviously I think that no cut at all is preferable. But if people who would otherwise be doing the full-blown clitoral removal procedure are being offered the ritual cut as an alternative, then I’m all for it. It’s true that we all do stupid shit in the name of tradition, if we can minimize the harm of it, then yay.

Comment #44: Jenny Dreadful  on  05/07  at  06:01 PM

@Egnu Cledge

Are you kidding me? The original reason the Jews have for male circumcision is to mark a pact made with God, the reasoning behind male circumcision is every bit as motivated by religious tradition as female circumcision is (and probably more so, as female circumcision is not really mentioned in religious texts).

Comment #45: Elliot  on  05/07  at  06:08 PM

#34

Egnu, the foreskin did not grow. That’s the point. The foreskin stayed the same size as the boy grew, and when it came time for an erection, the difference became noticeable.

I knew a guy who had that problem (with a foreskin that did not grow with his penis, and in fact shrank). It caused him a great deal of pain and required an expensive operation when he was in his 20s. As a result, I view the circumcision of baby boys as being, overall, a good thing.

Comment #46: atheist  on  05/07  at  06:16 PM

The vast majority of boys in the US are circumcised. The vast majority of boys are not Jewish. I’m not saying it didn’t start with religion, I’m saying it’s not the prime motivating factor in it’s use today. My point was that the “tradition”, even divorced from it’s religious roots, is still all about the same level of mutilation. Which is why I’m skeptical that doctor approved “nicks” of girls will prevent their mass mutilation as there is no “tradition” apart from that.

Also, like judybrowni, I assumed they were talking about the hood, not the clitoris itself, which makes this beyond the pale.

Comment #47: Egnu Cledge  on  05/07  at  06:19 PM

“I’m not saying this means that all baby boys need to be marched off for circumcision, it’s just something that I keep in mind when the online circumcision wars get going.”

Except that just being aware of the potential for a problem (generally achievable by proper sex ed and telling parents that it’s possible) means that things like phimosis and frenulum breve will get caught sooner.  And full circumcision is currently considered a rather drastic approach; gradual stretching of the skin with the help of topical ointments and partial circumcisions seem to be generally preferred by patients when they can be used.  As a bonus, not just pre-emptively lopping bits of people off when they’re infants means the issue can usually be addressed when they have a shot at getting closer to if not attaining actual informed consent for treatment.

Also?  Clitoral phimosis is a problem in women.  We don’t know how big a problem, because nobody ever checks for it, but it tends to get diagnosed after complaints of longstanding significant difficulty achieved orgasm.

Comment #48: preying mantis  on  05/07  at  06:20 PM

As to the painful foreskin thing, I was thinking of it not growing lengthwise instead of in circumference, as seems to be the case.

Regardless, cutting off everyone’s foreskin because a minority experience problems with it later on would be like performing double mastectomies on all women because some of them will get breast cancer later on.

Comment #49: Egnu Cledge  on  05/07  at  06:22 PM

Well, Egnu, that’s the point. If you accept that the MAJORITY of men in America are circumcised, and of those that are uncircumcised, I knew *two* guys *who felt comfortable enough with me to tell me about it* by the time I was 22 who had this problem, then how rare is it, really? I mean, you don’t have it, fine. And maybe the guys that you’re close enough to that you ... I dunno, did a circle jerk with didn’t have it…. but I deeply suspect, given my little sampling pool, that it’s not as rare as all that. Maybe not common, but possibly in the “uncommon” category. But I’m betting that it isn’t “rare.”

And I bent over backwards to say “not every little boy should be circumcised because of this” but there are ************REASONS************** why maybe we can’t just figure that the second there’s a problem the boy is going to tell his parents. Being a teenager of either gender is fraught with incredible sense of isolation, unease with your body, and fear of being abnormal. I can’t imagine starting a conversation with my mom and dad with the words “every time I get a hard-on…” And I find it laughable that we’re suggesting that the proposed solution is parental education and involvement in a thread that’s about the reality of people chopping up their daughters’ clitorises.

Comment #50: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/07  at  06:37 PM

Oh man, I can’t believe you opened up the circumcision can of worms. Talk about Topics What Blow Up the Comment Threads…

I disagree w/ circumcision for many reasons, but the largest is Lack of Consent. Except in rare cases, there is no medical justification, whatsoever—to the point that few insurers cover it any more.

This is because…now stay with me here…doctors are neither priests nor cosmeticians.

Optional/non-medically-indicated body modification is something that should only happen when a person can consent to it. Period.

And yeah, I feel this way about piercing infant’s ears. If there is no reason to cause pain to a child, you should not do so. Culture “looking like the other boys” (seriously WTF is up with that), “they won’t remember it” (that makes it ok?), fear of rare medical conditions that might arise later…or, in this case, a rather doubtful attempt to prevent worse harm (is there much evidence this would even have this result?)...are not excuses for performing (unanesthetized, I might add) bodily modifications on infants or children.

Have you ever looked at photos of a baby being circumsized? It’s like a horror movie. If it was being done to an adult, you would classify it as mutiliation. Why is it ok to do to an infant?

And all the “they don’t really feel it/remember it/are harmed” arguments sound a lot like what they are—justifications for doing something we know to be wrong.

The real truth is, children don’t remember it, so they can’t make us feel guilty later by telling us how much it hurt them. *That doesn’t mean it didn’t hurt them.* Lacking the speech/facility to communicate pain does not mean you don’t feel it.

Dogs can’t tell you either, but that doesn’t make it ok to beat them.

Comment #51: emjaybee  on  05/07  at  06:45 PM

I had heard that FGM was entirely cultural and not religious—that it’s unheard of in many Islamic societies because there is no basis for it in the Koran. Can someone confirm/deny this? My understanding is that Islam sits on top of existing cultural traditions of cutting up little girls’ genitals, and while there are many in the culture who will defend the practice on religious grounds, the tradition is cultural and not religious.

Comment #52: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/07  at  06:46 PM

Really!? You don’t think FGM is about hatred/fear of female sexuality and a psychopathic desire to control/destroy a woman’s ability to experience sexual pleasure and autonomy?

In some cultures yes, in others no. In West Africa women sometimes join “secret” sororities, membership of which requires the procedure. I do not know how extensive the cutting goes. I presume it is not the full infibulation which IIRC is mostly limited to northeastern African cultures.

Comment #53: pablo  on  05/07  at  06:47 PM

pablo, women are just as capable of policing each other’s sexuality and enforcing misogynist rules as men are. Just because women are doing it to one another in some areas of West Africa doesn’t make it Empowerful.

Comment #54: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/07  at  06:50 PM

Oh, and just wanted to add; if a boy or young man has to have a circumcision because he develops a medical condition—which is going to be the minority of uncircumsize boys and men—-they both are capable of understanding what is going on and are old enough to use pain medications to alleviate the recovery pain.  Unlike infants.

Infant mutiliation as a way of avoiding adult discomfort is, truly, one of the most bizarre and senseless arguments you can make.

Comment #55: emjaybee  on  05/07  at  06:50 PM

The outrage strikes me as more than a little privileged, which I find shocking and a little disappointing.

I think you’ve made excellent points all around, Amanda. My boyfriend, a quarter Jewish, by his Ukranian grandmother, is circumcised and seems dead set on any of our male children going the same direction. He’s not even religious. I’ve always been a little unsure about it, myself. I don’t know if it’s tradition or not, but if I could satisfy him by having the doctor wave a scalpel over the pelvis of my newborn, I’d do it.

Comment #56: Cola82  on  05/07  at  06:50 PM

Egnu Cledge @ 30:
Have you have never seen a circumsized man’s erection?  The foreskin is whole removed and the edge heals so that the penis is pretty much a smooth shaft.  The foreskin of an uncircomsized skin covers the glands when flacid and rolls down to the base when erect.  Tink about how panyhose bind when unrolled to get the idea.
My husband is uncircumsized.  So is my son.  I can see how there might be hygene issues if: 1) there was a difficulty in obtaining clean water regularly, 2) the foreskin did not completely seperate from the shaft or glands, 3) if the boy did not stretch the skin during early adolescence and he were one of the unlucky ones who expands greatly enough when erect to cause pain or even tearing.

Comment #57: helen w. h.  on  05/07  at  06:51 PM

Zifnab, you realize this discussion is about the law in America ?

Mighty Ponygirl, have you googled as to whether this is a common problem in Europe and whether a lot of guys end up fixing it by circumcision?  It seems to me if we have two large pool of people one of whom do X and one of whom doesn’t and the hypothesis is that if pool A stops doing X lots of problem 1 will arise, it’s pretty easy to check by seeing if pool B has a large problem 1.

Comment #58: Victoria  on  05/07  at  06:58 PM

Mighty PG- I wasn’t making a claim for FGM being empowering. I simply stated that it has different functions in different cultures.

Comment #59: pablo  on  05/07  at  07:08 PM

Mighty Ponygirl,

This discussion is not about whether certain boys/men who have a medical reason might benefit from circumcision. This is about performing unnecessary procedures on children (both male or female) who cannot consent.

Many procedures are done in medically necessary circumstances that are beneficial but certainly don’t need to be done pre-emptively and without consent. Why don’t we give every girl out there a mastectomy to prevent breast cancer? Or, hell, lets remove pinky toes to prevent ingrown toenails. I’m sure someone out there would benefit from that were it done pre-emptively.

If we are using antecdata, then my three sons, my husband, my father and all of my uncles, and my stepfather have not been circumcised. And have never had a problem with infections, foreskin issues or anything (I actually know this…because I did research and took a survey and made a knowledgeable decision when my sons were born.) Either has most of the population of Europe and South America.

I’m sorry for your friend’s problem and good that he got it taken care of. But I’m also sorry when someone gets an appendectomy. Doesn’t mean I’d pre-emptively and without consent give one to my kids.

Comment #60: Lexie  on  05/07  at  07:21 PM

@ superbadgirl

You speak about building trust through cultural sensitivity, and I assume you mean building trust with the parents. What about building trust with that little girl?

Who is she going to turn to when she’s being abused or being forced into an arranged marriage or needs advice from a doctor who she can trust? The doctor has already shown quite clearly that he will side with her family against her interest on “cultural” issues.

Because participating in a ritual that barely does anything to the girl at all, to symbolize her entering the community of women, automatically means that the family is going to abuse the girl.

Lots of children are abused who have not experienced such ritualistic practices, and they don’t have anyone to turn to, simply because no one will believe them.

So quit pretending that there’s some kind of correlation between the two.

@ Mightyponygirl

... that immigrants are expected to suck up and accept… like marrying your 12-year-old daughter off to some 41-year-old pervert.

While such practices certainly make girls vulnerable to abuse, most adult men who marry girls do not expect to have sex with them.

I think it’s important to recognize that economic imperitives unlie marriage practices, and that it’s more productive to focus on improvingthe economic situation of women, rather than pathologizing an entire culture.

@ Lindsay Beyerstein

Does everyone know what we’re talking about here? “Ritual nicks” not “cutting bits off”.

@ Austin Nedved

I think that even the ritual nicking is a violation of the girl’s rights, and you can’t violate someone’s rights as a means to anything, even the prevention of an even greater violation of their rights.

Well, that’s nice for you to be able to retain your principles, but what about the person whose rights are actually at stake? Which do you think they would prefer?

@ Egnu Cledge

Really!? You don’t think FGM is about hatred/fear of female sexuality and a psychopathic desire to control/destroy a woman’s ability to experience sexual pleasure and autonomy?

First of all, FGC in not FGM and the two should not be conflated.

Personally, I still find it hard to interpret FGC any other way. I also have a hard time interpreting wearing the niqab as signifying anything besides slut-shaming. But you know what? The interpretation of those practices is not up to me, it’s up to the women who participate in them. Many communities practice FGC as an induction into womanhood, and see it in a positive light. There are women who want to continue the tradition, and it is patronizing for us as Westerners to chalk up those desires to internalized sexism. It has to do with how people construct their communities. And while different interpretations may not entirely jive with how I understand the world, I can still respect them.

@ Zifnab25

re: #31

Wow… just, wow… total asshat.

A better answer would have been that, religious/cultural communities are important to people, their sense of identity, to having social support, etc. Especially to recent immigrants who may find the white population to be hostile towards them. It is unfair to make women choose between the communities that are central to their lives, and their rights as women.

@ judybrowni

Or that the “nicking” wouldn’t satisfy some family members who would then have the full procedure done.

Well, nothing can be done about those cases anyways, can it?

The parents of a friend of mine did not want him to baptized as a child, but his grandmother was insistent. The had a priest friend drop by and sprinkle some water on his head, and the grandmother was satisfied.

Nicking doesn’t acheive what the cultural practice sought to: control female sexuality, so I wonder if would satisfy those who advocate it.

Except that “nicking” is already the form that the practice takes in many places. So why do you think they still do it?

Comment #61: MarissaAO  on  05/07  at  07:23 PM

Mighty Ponygirl,

I apologized for an uneducated response, and I wasn’t accusing you of saying it was a reason for circumcising all boys. I was responding to a comment by atheist, so I don’t know why that called for a vaguely homophobic aspersion. And I didn’t say it wasn’t rare, just that it’s occurrence in some minority proportion of the male population wasn’t grounds for circumcising the entire population.

In some cultures yes, in others no. In West Africa women sometimes join “secret” sororities, membership of which requires the procedure. I do not know how extensive the cutting goes. I presume it is not the full infibulation which IIRC is mostly limited to northeastern African cultures.

As MP already said, the fact that extremely repressive societies have convinced women to police/mutilate themselves doesn’t make it any less about policing and mutilation.

Have you have never seen a circumsized man’s erection?

I have a circumcised man’s erection (well, not right now), so yes, I am familiar.

Comment #62: Egnu Cledge  on  05/07  at  07:25 PM

First of all, FGC in not FGM and the two should not be conflated.

Oh, give me a fucking break. I refuse to be so culturally sensitive that I can no longer call out an injustice. FGC is mutilation the same way that an “honor killing” is still murder no matter how the society practicing it feels about it.

Many communities practice FGC as an induction into womanhood, and see it in a positive light. There are women who want to continue the tradition, and it is patronizing for us as Westerners to chalk up those desires to internalized sexism. It has to do with how people construct their communities. And while different interpretations may not entirely jive with how I understand the world, I can still respect them.

So, bullshit on all of this. You think the women got together one day and held a vote and decided to start mutilating their genitals as a way of celebrating their womanhood? Nothing has been constructed, it has been coerced and forced. There is absolutely no reason to respect that, or anything else just because that’s the way it’s always been done, or it has some religious meaning.

Comment #63: Egnu Cledge  on  05/07  at  07:33 PM

@62

It is unfair to make women choose between the communities that are central to their lives, and their rights as women.

And it’s unfair to have a proxy war with a child’s future health on the line, just so you can more aggressively pooh-pooh an archaic tribal custom.

@59

Zifnab, you realize this discussion is about the law in America ?

I did misunderstand.  Thought this was in reference to doctors working abroad.  Inside the US, this is definitely a bigger deal.  That said, this -

It is ironic that the AAP issued its statement the very same day that Congressman Joseph Crowley (D-NY) and Congresswoman Mary Bono Mack (R-CA) announced the introduction of new bipartisan legislation, The Girls Protection Act (H.R. 5137), to close the loophole in the federal law prohibiting FGM by making it illegal to transport a minor girl living in the U.S. out of the country for the purpose of FGM.

makes me suspect that parents looking to mutilate their children will find a way.  Once you start down the path, turning to foreign spiritualists for medical treatment, it’s a slippery slope towards anti-vax hysteria and homeopathy and leeches.

Extending this kind of grudging tolerance helps to suppress black-market surgery.  It’s the same reasoning behind Clinton’s “Safe, Legal, and Rare” stance on abortion.  Because you don’t want some wacko going at your daughter’s vulva with a coat hanger.  It’s the same reason the government carves out an exemption for Native Americans to smoke Peyote and why we should decriminalize pot.  Because it’s better to heavily regulate a persistent but destructive custom than to pretend to quash it and send SWAT teams to kick down your door if you’re a suspected violator.

It’s the lesser of two evils.  Plan and simple.  Rejecting the ritualistic prick doesn’t mean ending FGM.  Like so many Prohibitions before it, such a legal framework only serves to make the practice that much more destructive to the community.  A softer touch, combined with anti-misogynist community efforts like abused women’s shelters and well-funded equal opportunity public schools, will do more to wipe out the practice than a “Just Say No” denialist policy.

Comment #64: Zifnab25  on  05/07  at  07:54 PM

Have you ever looked at photos of a baby being circumsized? It’s like a horror movie.

Let’s not let our imagination run wild here. Once the Gomco clamp is applied most babies go back to sleep during the procedure.

Comment #65: ema  on  05/07  at  07:54 PM

#50

Regardless, cutting off everyone’s foreskin because a minority experience problems with it later on would be like performing double mastectomies on all women because some of them will get breast cancer later on.

Egnu, granted, that doesn’t seem fair when you point that out. I guess I’d have to have some idea of actual chance of dangers associated with being uncircumcised. Which I don’t.

Comment #66: atheist  on  05/07  at  07:58 PM

So, bullshit on all of this. You think the women got together one day and held a vote and decided to start mutilating their genitals as a way of celebrating their womanhood? Nothing has been constructed, it has been coerced and forced. There is absolutely no reason to respect that, or anything else just because that’s the way it’s always been done, or it has some religious meaning.

First of all, a pinprick is not the same as cutting out the clitoris, or slashing up the genitals and sewing the vagina closed. So yes, they should be differentiated.

I’m not speculating about how some communities understand the practice. This is how some communities see it. And it is about social contruction of their communities, because you are not a woman until you a have experienced the ritual.

People engage with their circumstances and traditions, so that the meaning changes. I’m not saying we should respect something because “that’s the way it’s always been done, or it has some religious meaning.” I’m saying we should respect the perspectives of women whose rights are actually at stake.

Comment #67: MarissaAO  on  05/07  at  07:58 PM

Someone above asked.  There is apparently no mention in the Koran of FGM/FGC.  Now, I seem to recall that one article I read and this article http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/fourth/aldeeb.html say that Mohammed is supposed to have praised FGM/FGC but not directly in the Koran. 

FGM/FGC is generally considered to have been a pre-existing cultural custom that got added to Islam when it became the majority religion of certain areas.  It is also practiced by Christians in some areas of Africa.  I want to say Yemen and Egypt, but I don’t know if that’s right.  I did some googling, but I don’t have time to do a lot of it.

Comment #68: GeekGirlsRule  on  05/07  at  08:04 PM

So, bullshit on all of this. You think the women got together one day and held a vote and decided to start mutilating their genitals as a way of celebrating their womanhood? Nothing has been constructed, it has been coerced and forced.

I presume you are also against marriage as well, since it’s all about the father handing his daughter over as property to another man. If we can convince people to repurpose their rituals in such a way that they become physically harmless, I think that we will all be in a better place. You think you can force people to give up their rituals and traditions that define their identity? Yeah, well, good luck with that.

Comment #69: Tyro  on  05/07  at  08:09 PM

GGR, you’re correct that this is a cultural as opposed to religious practice; in fact, Islamists often are vehemently opposed to the practice because they view it as man changing what Allah has made. And it is mentioned that Mohammed practiced female circumcision in a “surya”, which as I understand it is a traditional story about his life that is not in the Koran.

I actually researched FGM for a major paper in college, and this is my take. The American Academy of Pediatrics can say whatever they want, but it won’t work. Parents that are determined to practice some form of FGM on their daughter will not be satisfied with a little cut, particularly if they are part of a culture that practices infibulation. There are deeply held beliefs about both morality and cleanliness that are part of all the different types of FGM, and people will not be talked out of them, as the Egyptian government has found out. We would probably be better off approaching clerics who minister to people from these cultures; in the 19th century, a well-respected cleric/mystic, (whose name currently escapes me), managed to curb the practice by reciting a certain prayer that he had written, which ended with a line like, “now circumcised without being cut.” It’s a cultural problem that will have to have a cultural solution.

Comment #70: Liz212  on  05/07  at  08:33 PM

@Egnu:
“For example, you’ll notice that even though hardly anybody in America circumcises boys for religious reasons, no one is proposing a foreskin “nick” in an effort to preserve both “tradition” and intact genitals.”

Actually, some parts of the Jewish community not only propose exactly that, they are also doing it to their sons.  And that sounds better to me than cutting things off.

Comment #71: vim876  on  05/07  at  08:37 PM

Amanda, thanks for the wise words on Male Genital Mutilation, which is every bit as sick as FGM. Watch a little baby boy get circumcised and then try to tell me differently.

People who defend it because of the “health benefits” should have a finger cut off, to prevent the possibility of breaking their digit.

The supposed protection against HIV is virtually worthless (try a condom instead of mutilating a little baby), and washing your dick is fun, easy and should be done anyways.

Comment #72: James K. Polk, Esq.  on  05/07  at  08:38 PM

Actually, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark have found an extremely effective way to deal with FGM in their immigrant communities. Any little girl found to have suffered FGM is taken away from her family and settled with foster parents. Result? FGM has been virtually eliminated in the Somali and East Aftrican communities in Scandanavia. It is principled and very simple. Every child in the school system is given a medical examination when they first enter, at grade five, and then grade ten (minimum). Infibulation or FGM found—away she goes.

Comment #73: Hairhead  on  05/07  at  08:52 PM

Just wanted to congratulate folks on being mostly polite and calm on a thread about FGM & circucision. For some reason those particular topics often cause people to totally lose their shit.

Comment #74: atheist  on  05/07  at  09:11 PM

You know, it seems that in any discussion of FGM, the odds that someone will start talking about male circumcision are 1.

Comment #75: shannon  on  05/07  at  09:36 PM

I’m saying we should respect the perspectives of women whose rights are actually at stake.

I presume you are also against marriage as well, since it’s all about the father handing his daughter over as property to another man. If we can convince people to repurpose their rituals in such a way that they become physically harmless, I think that we will all be in a better place. You think you can force people to give up their rituals and traditions that define their identity? Yeah, well, good luck with that.

I am against marriage as it is currently practiced, but whatev. I never mentioned forcing anybody to do anything. In fact, as I said earlier, from a pragmatic standpoint, if you can get people to lay aside the misogyny and spare a generation of girls from being mutilated, then it’s a step in the right direction.

I will not, however, pretend that women being forced to mutilate themselves to conform to their society’s standards is any sort of practice that needs to be respected, even if the women themselves are the ones who carry it out.

Comment #76: Egnu Cledge  on  05/07  at  09:44 PM

You know, it seems that in any discussion of FGM, the odds that someone will start talking about male circumcision are 1.

Considering that male circumcision is one of the topics included in Amanda’s post, I would say yes.

Comment #77: pablo  on  05/07  at  10:04 PM

This statement is less about FGM and more about protecting the highly lucrative practice of ritual and needless male circumcision in the US.  You can’t talk about it being highly medically unethical to inflict a deliberate surgical injury upon a non-consenting patient without getting into the highly unethical practice of deliberate surgical injury of a non-consenting patient.

Comment #78: Ms Kate  on  05/07  at  10:06 PM

When our kid was ready to be born, we did not know whether we were getting a boy or a girl. The nice nurse asked us if, should we have a boy, we wanted him circumcised. My wife turned to me and said, “You’ve got the dick; you decide.” I said no. The nurse said it was better to do it in the hospital than at home. I said we weren’t going to do it at all. My conservative MIL, horrified, asked why not. I said because I didn’t think mutilating children was a good idea. The nurse took this as if she’d never heard anyone say anything like this before—and this is a major hospital in the downtown of a major city. It wasn’t like she disagreed so much as it was just an alien concept to her. She was very polite about the whole thing, though.

As it turned out, we got a girl, whom we did not mutilate or have mutilated. She gets to be sixteen and wants to cut off her button, um, I guess we gotta let her. Someone upthread was outraged that someone else associated piercing little girls’ ears with poorer or minority status, but I’ve observed a lot of little kids in the last 19 months, and there really does appear to be a strong correlation between piercing baby girls’ ears and lower socioeconomic or politically conservative or new immigrant communities, because those groups treat boy and girl children so much more differently. The marker needs to be obvious—as do the clothes—because strangers need to know whether the child is a future master or a worthless girl.

Our daughter still kind of looks like a little boy, esp because we don’t dress her in little frilly things, and last week I was walking her around and a very stereotypical construction worker with a confederate flag hat said something about how my little boy was real cute. I said it was a girl, but thanks, and he flipped the fuck out. He DEMANDED that I go pierce her ears: he was really bugged out about it, I think because he felt he’d inadvertently insulted me by missing the sex of my kid, like I care, and he dragged his two buddies over there and they both agreed that I needed to get them ears pierced pronto. It was weird.

I teach a couple of courses every years on the Classical Islamic period, usually literature and history, and FGM in all its forms is a practice that was not native to the Arabs prior to Islam. It developed in Eastern Africa, and when the Muslim warriors conquered Byzantine Egypt, a much richer and more heavily populated land, the practice began to spread among the Muslims. It’s still regrettably quite common in Egypt. In a similar fashion, the veil and esp the niqab or face-covering is a Punjabi practice that became Islamic once the Persian state was absorbed into the Muslim Empire—or rather, the Persians absorbed the Arabs, which is really what happened. Arab women in the first couple of generations after Muhammad were neither veiled nor cut: in fact, women of those generations had a great deal more autonomy than European women ever did until the late C19. Both FGM and the veil were retconned into Islam by taking a Hadith or prophetic tradition out of context in the case of the first, and a verse from the Qur’an out of context in the case of the second, so as to make them seem authentically Islamic practices rather than practices of other cultures that became part of the classical Islamic empire(s).

Comment #79: felagund  on  05/07  at  10:08 PM

It is possible to respect the views and feelings of women who come from communities that practice FGM and still see the practice for what it is: a means of enforcing sexual compliance through pain, a violent attack on the centre of female identity, and an expression of fear and hatred of female sexuality. Regardless of what the people perpetuating it think at the time, and it’s plausible that they love their daughters and are simply following the rut of tradition, this is what the practice actually is. To say that it should be treated with contempt and abhorrence is not to say that its victims and even perpetuators are to be so treated.

I personally don’t see how this new AAP advice is going to do any good, but I’m willing to admit I may be wrong and let people who know more about this than me decide. Still, if you look at the growth of the wedding industrial complex, it’s hard to make a credible claim that if you neuter traditions from their more overtly reprehensible content then they’ll just wither away.

Comment #80: MarinaS  on  05/07  at  10:20 PM

“You know, it seems that in any discussion of FGM, the odds that someone will start talking about male circumcision are 1.”

If you’re talking about legal and medical issues within the US pertaining to willful genital injury inflicted by a doctor on a patient who can’t consent at the whim of their parents, it’s hard to avoid talking about it.  As was mentioned upthread, it’s difficult if not impossible to say “Parents can have their sons’ foreskins removed” without opening a door for “Parents can have their daughters’ clitoral hoods removed,” at the very least.

Comment #81: preying mantis  on  05/07  at  10:31 PM

Have you ever looked at photos of a baby being circumsized? It’s like a horror movie.

Let’s not let our imagination run wild here. Once the Gomco clamp is applied most babies go back to sleep during the procedure.

Actually, that’s the child going into shock, or to be technical, an acute stress reaction.  It’s so stressful, the pain overwhelms their very sensitive nervous system, which tries to shut itself down to the stimuli. Hence the “sleepy” or “sleeping” look.

Comment #82: hypatia  on  05/07  at  10:33 PM

I’m going to have to agree with PZ Myers here.  I think that even the ritual nicking is a violation of the girl’s rights, and you can’t violate someone’s rights as a means to anything, even the prevention of an even greater violation of their rights.  Second, I think that these sort of human rights violations are infinitely worse if they’re performed legally than if they’re performed illegally, all else being equal.
Comment #23: Austin Nedved on 05/07 at 03:11 PM

I think I’m in agreement here, mainly because it co-opts science (medicine) in the service of religious ritual and superstition.  Doctors don’t do religious circumcision, the do medical, ostensibly hygiene purposed male circumcision.  If there were no medical benefit AT ALL, I would assume as the APA did, IIRC, recommend doctors stop doing them. Unless they offer it as, technically, a plastic surgery procedure, right?

An alternative would be for practioners to make it just a (non- touch) ritual performed in a mosque,
(by whatever cleric was so designated) which is just fine with atheist me, religion practiced in a religious institution and context.

Shorter phylosopher: keep your religion out of my medical practice and I’ll keep my medical practices out of your religion.

Comment #83: phylosopher  on  05/09  at  12:56 AM

I knew a guy who had that problem (with a foreskin that did not grow with his penis, and in fact shrank). It caused him a great deal of pain and required an expensive operation when he was in his 20s. As a result, I view the circumcision of baby boys as being, overall, a good thing.
Comment #47: atheist on 05/07 at 04:16 PM

You know an infected appendix is painful and life threatening, therefore we should have all appendixes removed as infants.  Ditto for tonsils, and oh… better include galbladders there, too.  A possible case can be made for removal of mammary glands - they just get cancerous.

YOu might want to rethink that line of argument, I suggest.

Comment #84: phylosopher  on  05/09  at  01:09 AM

@MarissaAO:

Personally, I still find it hard to interpret FGC any other way. I also have a hard time interpreting wearing the niqab as signifying anything besides slut-shaming. But you know what? The interpretation of those practices is not up to me, it’s up to the women who participate in them. Many communities practice FGC as an induction into womanhood, and see it in a positive light. There are women who want to continue the tradition, and it is patronizing for us as Westerners to chalk up those desires to internalized sexism. It has to do with how people construct their communities. And while different interpretations may not entirely jive with how I understand the world, I can still respect them.

I presume you approve of women being forced to wear niqab, then? Because that’s what you’re saying when you equate veiling and FGM. If a woman decides to get cut, that’s her business. If her parents decide to do it for her when she’s a minor, the “community”‘s consent is not a substitute for her own consent, and it is non-consensual.

Comment #85: Rebecca  on  05/09  at  01:13 AM

MPG et al, if you are curious about male neonate circumcision rates, I found this:
http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/
scroll down in article for recent stats. It is nowhere near universal in the US and thankfully declining.

SO your assumptions about most men being circumcised/ and therefore knowing two of the uncircumcised having phimosis being representative of a common problem is not correct, even less so depending on the region of the country.

Comment #86: phylosopher  on  05/09  at  01:19 AM

There is no evidence that foreskin has anything to do with sex.

Ugh, there’s no reason, ever, to compare male circumcision to female genital mutilation.

There is no reason to ‘thank’ for it declining; and no reason to believe the statistics on problems relating to foreskins are well reported.

All I know is that with guys I’ve been sexual with, foreskins are more of an interruption than adding to his pleasure.

Comment #87: Crissa  on  05/09  at  01:48 AM

Someone waaaaaaay upthread asked how big a problem FGM is in the U.S. at the moment. I can comment on this as I live in Minneapolis. There is a huge Somali population here.  I don’t know any exact statistics, but I can tell you this:

1. Somalis are generally really good about having their kids vaccinated, taking their kids in for routine checkups, etc.  Somali kids see the doctor regularly.

2. They’re also very pro-education. Somali kids go to school.

3. Both doctors and teachers are mandatory reporters. Doctors regularly see patients unclothed, and schools notice fast if a child is absent or in pain.  If a Somali girl were found to have been mutilated, child abuse charges would be filed and the girl would be removed from her home. This would be true even if it had been done in Somalia, and the girl brought back here. I am pretty sure there WAS one case in the early 1990s where an African immigrant family took a girl back to Africa, had it done, and then had their daughter seized by CPS after they returned to the U.S.

4. This doesn’t seem to be happening. I am pretty confident that if this WAS happening, I would have heard.  It would be in the news.  People would talk about it incessantly at my kids’ school, with its 15% Somali student body.

5. Moreover, I am friends socially with a pediatrician who will say that she LOVES Somali parents because they are so conscientious about bringing their kids to the doctor, getting routine care, etc. She would not be saying this if they were mutilating their daughters.

6. All this, despite the fact that many or most of the adult Somali women immigrants were mutilated as children.  There was a training program for doctors in town to discuss FGM with their female patients—i.e., was this done to you when you were a child? do you have difficulty with urination or pain with sexual intercourse, because there are things we can do to make these better. In particular, they talk to women who are pregnant, because it’s much better to plan in advance. 

The evidence I have suggests that most Somalis who move here simply give up that particular cultural tradition. 

I don’t know whether it is a bigger problem in other parts of the U.S., or with different cultural groups, but that’s one data point I thought I would offer up.

Comment #88: Naomi  on  05/09  at  02:10 AM

Another anecdatum, and quite possibly Too Much Information:

I’m male, 32 and uncircumcised.  Of dick problems that could *possibly* be affected by circumcision, I can list exactly one: a yeast infection.  This appeared just after an around-the-world flight with significant delays during a transfer.  The upshot is that I was not able to wash for a significant.period of time, when I was sweaty, uncomfortable and sleep-deprived.

Comment #89: wnoise  on  05/09  at  02:20 AM

There is no evidence that foreskin has anything to do with sex

Well actually, there is, some of that bothersome scientific type that should make one questions one’s anecdotal evidence and a priori assumptions:


http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118508429/abstract

Comment #90: phylosopher  on  05/09  at  02:47 AM

Naomi, couldn’t this be because of self-selection though?  IN other words, aren’t those who immigrate more likely to be open to change and new customs, perhaps already rebelling against cultural customs and less nationalistic/tied to cultural mores?

Comment #91: phylosopher  on  05/09  at  02:51 AM

If we were talking about changes in medical procedures in the countries where FGM is endemic or otherwise widely practiced, I would be firmly on the side of pragmatism and think that genital “nicking” was a step in the right direction as long as it coincided with attempts by local organizations to change the cultural attachment to the practice. 

Since we are talking about the U.S., I am on the side of others who find this change in the AAP’s recommendations appalling.  I did not circumcise my own son because his penis belongs to him and absent any medical indication I am not going to remove parts of his body for aesthetic/cultural purposes.  I would no sooner violate his bodily autonomy than I would want my own bodily autonomy violated for non-medical reasons.  If he decides he wants to be circumcised later, that is HIS choice. Just as it would be a woman’s choice to have her clitoris nicked or the hood removed once she reaches her majority. 

Until someone can provide evidence that FGM in THIS COUNTRY is such a persistent problem that we need the “pragmatic” solution being advocated here and by the AAP, I will continue to think this represents yet another front in the war against female bodies that has found renewed vigor over the last decade.  Seems convenient that just as male circumcision has earned a lot more scrutiny for the dubious medical claims proponents make about it and stronger activism to prohibit the practice absent medical need that the AAP adjusts its stance to allow some forms of FGM.  Gender parity, whee!

Comment #92: history_mom  on  05/09  at  03:03 AM

I suspect that many foreskin troubles have to do with a circumcised dad not knowing what to tell an uncircumcised son about cleanliness and stretching.  That’s probably a factor in why a lot of fathers want their boys circumcised.  I have also heard, “I want him to look like me.”

Personally I have never found either state weird or repulsive. But I don’t see any point in having it done wholesale, and there’s no way to tell which boys will have a problem that circumcision might have prevented and circumcise only them.

Comment #93: oldfeminist  on  05/09  at  03:54 AM

I suspect that many foreskin troubles have to do with a circumcised dad not knowing what to tell an uncircumcised son about cleanliness and stretching.  That’s probably a factor in why a lot of fathers want their boys circumcised.  I have also heard, “I want him to look like me.”

I think there’s a logic flaw here - presumably circumcised dads wouldn’t know “that” stretching is necessary, so how could they be worried about “what” to tell an uncircumcised son?

Comment #94: phylosopher  on  05/09  at  04:12 AM

As a circumcised male who enjoys sex quite a bit, I’d just like to say how appreciative I am to be told that I’ve had my sex organs mutilated.  I really had no idea.  Frankly, I feel like I got the better part of the deal not having to do as much maintenance each and every day, but what do I know?  I’ve been mutilated, and will never know the pleasure of feeling a slightly lighter touch on my glans that noncircumcised penises would.  (Note to phylosopher:  As far as I can tell Crissa is correct.  Your study has to do with [small differences in] sensing touch, but surely you realize sex isn’t nearly that simple, right?)

From everything I’ve heard about FGM, it’s far, far worse than circumcision in terms of future sexual pleasure, so while I appreciate the arguments put forward here that future prevention of complications is insufficient justification for male circumcision, the harm done to us boys is far less severe.  It’s just not in the same ballpark as the stuff done to girls, not even close.

Comment #95: NY Expat  on  05/09  at  04:33 AM

From everything I’ve heard about FGM, it’s far, far worse than circumcision in terms of future sexual pleasure, so while I appreciate the arguments put forward here that future prevention of complications is insufficient justification for male circumcision, the harm done to us boys is far less severe.

well, here’s the thing. some women from some cultures that practice FGM claim the same: that the removal of the clitoris doesn’t affect their sex-lives, and that they have orgasms just fine.

So, we can claim that they’re either lying, or don’t know what they’re talking about (and if, conversely, I didn’t think that of the men, that would make me a sexist ass discarding a woman’s opinion where I wouldn’t discard a man’s); or we can take their opinion at face value, and simply agree that mutilation of minors without their consent is wrong on principle, even when they themselves don’t mind it having been done; either way, you personal opinion about your cut penis isn’t going to figure into this at all.

Or I could make your opinion count, but then have to also accept that some women like having FGM done to them.

Comment #96: jadehawk  on  05/09  at  04:58 AM

NY Expat: I don’t think anyone is claiming that male circumcision compares to anything but the mildest forms of FGM (such as the “nicking” or slightly more significant removal of the clitoral hood being referenced in the post). But to pretend there are absolutely no similarities and that genital mutilation does not exist on a continuum is fatuous.  Like FGM, the promotion of male circumcision in this country was based on issues of purity, cleanliness, and sex-phobia (primarily, to discourage masturbation).  I start to get really uncomfortable when feminists want to suggest that we can NEVER compare the two, but do understand that it comes from frustration about how these conversations usually become “but what about the men” conversations.  When men do it, I become stabby.

And seriously, get the fuck over yourself.  Nobody has said that circumcised males are unable to enjoy sex (though certainly there are those whose botched circumcisions make this their reality and they shouldn’t be dismissed) and I doubt that European men feel unduly burdened by the minuscule burden of keeping a foreskin clean.  Preventing male infants from having their genitals mutilated is not all about you and your penis.

Comment #97: history_mom  on  05/09  at  05:03 AM

To add: I actually think that realizing that male circumcision is also an affront to bodily autonomy also helps more people understand that even the “mild” forms of FGM should be eradicated.  If we tolerate genital mutilation in the “preferred” male sex, then what prevents us from saying that some forms of FGM are tolerable as long as the powers that be determine that x% loss of sexual function is acceptable if it means women remain sexually pure.  I don’t think it is a coincidence that the AAP is now okay with performing some forms of FGM as it provides a rationale to continue male circumcision despite the lack of evidence for its medical benefits.

Comment #98: history_mom  on  05/09  at  05:08 AM

jadehawk:  You’re cutting out the other side of the outcomes:  How many men complain that circumcision affects their sex life proportional to those that had the procedure at birth, and how many women complain that FGM affected their sex lives, proportional to those that had the proecdure?

More to my point, FGM includes procedures that extend past the anatomical equivalent of male circumcision, and in any event is performed on a part of the anatomy that is much smaller and has far more nerve endings than an infant male sexual organ.  I wouldn’t define male circumcision as “mutilation” any more than I would a tonsilectomy or an appendectomy.  Removal of skin isn’t the same as destruction of nerve endings.

In any case, I posted because I didn’t like being told I was deformed.  It wasn’t meant as a rebuttal to the non-consent argument.

Comment #99: NY Expat  on  05/09  at  05:26 AM

history_mom:  See phylosopher @91.  And the word “mutiliation” itself implies a lesser enjoyment, don’t you think?

Comment #100: NY Expat  on  05/09  at  05:43 AM

I’m curious if I can start posting again….

Comment #101: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/09  at  10:40 AM

I cannot find an online copy of Obioma Nnaemeka’s excellent polemic entitled “If female circumcision didn’t exist, Western feminists would invent it.” So I will link to some similar writing in which she criticizes our missionary zeal. I would suggest that people read it. Also, may I offer the existence of Pubmed so that we aren’t relying on what happened to someone’s friend’s friend’s penis?

Comment #102: purpleshoes  on  05/09  at  11:02 AM

NY Expat, the word “mutilation” is itself specifically propagandic and was coined by human rights organizations because “female circumcision” was apparently not inspiring enough shock in their chosen audiences.

I distrust our discourse on this issue. I think it’s easy to take a hardline stance against cultural traditions that have nothing to do with us, I think there are some unlovely overtones in deciding that African ladies’ vulvas are ours to rescue, and I think the AAP’s statement was reasonable and reasonably free of pearl-clutching insistence that other cultures Do It Wrong and we do it right. Also, I agree with Amanda.

Comment #103: purpleshoes  on  05/09  at  11:11 AM

    I suspect that many foreskin troubles have to do with a circumcised dad not knowing what to tell an uncircumcised son about cleanliness and stretching.  That’s probably a factor in why a lot of fathers want their boys circumcised.  I have also heard, “I want him to look like me.”

I think there’s a logic flaw here - presumably circumcised dads wouldn’t know “that” stretching is necessary, so how could they be worried about “what” to tell an uncircumcised son?
Comment #95: phylosopher on 05/09 at 02:12 AM

Jebus phylosopher.

They know there could be “problems” but have no idea what the problems are or how to prevent them. 

I didn’t mean they’re sitting there thinking “I know he has to stretch it.”  They’re sitting there thinking “I know it requires some kind of maintenance and maybe that’s stretching or cleaning or something but I don’t know what and I’m sure not going to ask around.”  Asking a doctor might well elicit “you should have had him snipped, nothing but trouble, harrumph harrumph harrumph.”

Comment #104: oldfeminist  on  05/09  at  11:43 AM

Oh bull.  If you take a LaMaze or other natural birthing class - and lots of men do - they are geared at couples, not just moms, it’s a part of the discussion.  And, as we know, it’s generally the mom who handles hygiene-all that unpaid labor women are still burdened with.

All that stretching BTW, is pretty much unnecessary - happens naturally with erections.  And yes, even infants have erections.
 
Not to mention, the joys of the internet:
http://www.drgreene.com/qa/cleaning-penis-intact-foreskin
and a host of others like it.

Comment #105: phylosopher  on  05/09  at  02:37 PM

I distrust our discourse on this issue. I think it’s easy to take a hardline stance against cultural traditions that have nothing to do with us, I think there are some unlovely overtones in deciding that African ladies’ vulvas are ours to rescue, and I think the AAP’s statement was reasonable and reasonably free of pearl-clutching insistence that other cultures Do It Wrong and we do it right.

I will just never understand this mindset. There may be different ways that are more or less effective in approaching certain issues, but this is essentially saying that there is nothing that couldn’t be done in the name of tradition or culture that could be criticised by anyone outside of that culture. And that’s patently ridiculous. I’m not saying that we do everything right here, but that doesn’t mean that someone else can’t also be doing it wrong. And mutilating the genitals of infant (or adult) women is wrong.

By your standard, Americans can never speak out against any injustice, humanitarian violation, or outright evil. You could just have easily have said “Sexual slavery in foreign countries has nothing to do with us, and I think there are some unlovely overtones in deciding that foreign ladies’ bodies and lives are ours to rescue.”

Fuck that.

Comment #106: Egnu Cledge  on  05/09  at  03:00 PM

Exactly, Egnu.  It’s calssic conventional moral thinking.  Supporters overlook that there can be an objective basis (like feminist theory) that falls outside the ethnocentric/nationalistic “we don’t do it that way so it must be wrong.” 

What most conventionalists fail to notice is that it is a self-contradictory position and therefore logically incoherent.  It renders any reform movement, whether internally or externally generated morally wrong, for starters.  And it is no longer a valid notion, as it may have been when societies were isolated and not as mobile.  In other words, while we may be able to ignore the tradition when it only happened in Somalia, it is definitely my business when it is quite possible that a potential half-Somali granddaughter of mine could be subject to this practice.

What else conventionalists fail to notice is that we also can’t praise or try to emulate other societies - like Britain’s universal healthcare, or Sweden’s more equitable child rearing and family leave.

Comment #107: phylosopher  on  05/09  at  03:19 PM

Egnu, I will never back down on adult women having the right to consent and not consent to any kind of body modification, and I firmly believe that children do not have the ability to consent to body modification. I support the AAP’s stance because it prevents doing anything irreversible to children, and certainly involves no more damage then piercing earlobes, something we let eight-year-olds consent to have done all the time (often at their parents’ insistence). I don’t think it’s a perfect stance, partially because the age of menarche is not the age of legal adulthood in the US and resolving the two definitions of “adult woman” is complex and problematic. I also support legal asylum for women who are trying to escape any and all situations where their sexual integrity is being compromised in their home country.

There is also a really ugly tinge of titillation mixed with missionary zeal that comes up in these conversations. We mostly can disagree with the practice of male infant circumcision, and work to make it rarer, without slavering on about, say, how Jews hate babies, but the FGM conversation tends to branch out into a lot of talk about “witch doctors” and child marriage among Africans and/or Muslims that seems creepy and colonialist and distressing, mostly because it is poorly sourced and based on assumptions and something we read in National Geographic at some point in the nineties. Hell, someone up there blamed it for homeopathy, which, what the effing eff? The world is not made up of “us” and “everyone who does something we disagree with”.

Furthermore, attempts to “stamp out” a cultural practice, as Americans speaking to non-Americans, can really work to re-inscribe that cultural practice as something that resists American attempts to erase other cultures and replace them with our own. I support the efforts of everyone who follows good, results-driven practices to enable women to have more decision-making power within their cultures and contexts, and helps them avoid non-evidence-based practices that increase pain and misery. I also acknowledge that I do not always have the ability to make those distinctions.

(Nice (mostly-white) American Ladies Against Sex Slavery also has a really mixed history of helping versus hurting people, as a cause, including sex workers, but it’s not the point of this thread).

Comment #108: purpleshoes  on  05/09  at  03:36 PM

phylosopher, well-meaning attempts to teach people what’s good for them based on what we ourselves want is a thoroughly conventional stance. Attempts to give people the most possible decision-making power about their own lives so that they can choose what they want is the radical stance. Accepting that I can’t know what’s good for everyone on the planet is just reasonable humility.

I am mostly arguing against ranting on about other cultures from spotty facts, though, which we’ve been doing all up and down the thread. Assuming that we know what’s better than other people when we haven’t done the research is colonialist. If anyone here has done the research (outside of alarmist pamphlets about other women’s vulvas, mind - I’m talking context, culture, history), please continue to present your facts.

Comment #109: purpleshoes  on  05/09  at  03:40 PM

That’s where you have the problem, purpleshoes.  It’s not what I want.  It’s what can be objectively proven.  FGM is pain causing and inviting infection for the large majority of women who undergo it. 
Arguing such, when it can be based on science, or ethics, with sensitivity to cultural norms when there isn’t an answer from science or it’s morally inconsequential, isn’t arrogance, as long as I’m willing to turn that same lens on my own culture- which it seems most of us here are.  Which is where the discussion of male circumcision enters the picture. 

Do you consider Guttmacher reliable?
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2313097.html

According to them, it seems that much of the push against the practices came from African women themselves.  We (western cultures) have had to step in because of the recent immigration patterns.  When our citizens or residents are now participating in this practice, or dealing with its ramifications during pregnancies, it has indeed become OUR business.

I would classify it as falling under plastic surgery rules - and without a medical reason (i.e. cleft palate, burn reconstruction, back pain from large breasts) cosmetic surgeries should simply not be performed on anyone under 21, IMO.  I don’t have the time to look up laws in each state, but my guess is that no reputable surgeon would perform say, a nose job on a ten year old because the parents wanted it, (e.g. adopted child to look more like parents) and certainly not on an infant.

Comment #110: phylosopher  on  05/09  at  04:10 PM

purpleshoes,

I agree with most of what you said above, but when you say

I am mostly arguing against ranting on about other cultures from spotty facts, though, which we’ve been doing all up and down the thread. Assuming that we know what’s better than other people when we haven’t done the research is colonialist. If anyone here has done the research (outside of alarmist pamphlets about other women’s vulvas, mind - I’m talking context, culture, history), please continue to present your facts.

I think you’ve lost the point. Firstly, this is a long thread, and I may have missed some things, but I haven’t seen anybody attacking or ranting about other cultures, other than to say that FGM is wrong and based in misogyny. I think that’s a pretty straightforward statement that doesn’t require a lot of “research” to justify. Secondly, while I agree that there are always historical relations, colonial issues, etc. to contend with when deciding on the best way to approach an issue, none of those affect the ability to call someone or some culture out on injustices. If we have no way of judging another culture’s actions wrong in the first place, negotiating cultural relations towards a solution doesn’t matter becuase we can never get to that level.

The “context, culture, and history” may inform the way we attempt to engage an issue, but it has nothing to do with being able to say that the issue at hand is wrong. There is no scenario in which FGM can be considered “right”.

I would like to add that there is no such thing as a monolithic culture. There are only individuals who make up a society. Some may hold a majority, but it doesn’t make the culture theirs alone. I would rather be “sensitive” to the needs, safety, and well being of the actual living, breathing half of the population being oppressed than to the abstract concept of a (male dominated) tradition and culture.

Comment #111: Egnu Cledge  on  05/09  at  04:14 PM

Speaking as a circumsized male, I can state with authority that while my folks probably didn’t make the right decision, they made their decision out of a sincere desire for my well-being, not a desire to deny me any sort of sexuality.

Comment #112: Punditus Maximus  on  05/09  at  04:18 PM

I really take issue with someone comparing a nick or small cut on the clitoris as no different than ear piercing.  Last I checked, the clitoris had a lot more nerve-endings and was a much smaller organ than an ear lobe, and therefore much more likely to impair actual function.  A botched ear piercing won’t make someone deaf, but a botched nicking could certainly damage the nerves enough to render the clitoris essentially useless. If you like the piercing comparison, maybe a better a comparison would be between piercing an infants nipple and nicking her clitoris.  A botched job would likely yield similar negative results.

As an academic, modern imperialism is one of my specialties and I am more than aware of the danger when it appears Western states are imposing our culture upon states that still are or were former colonies. I have argued for years that any effort to eradicate FGM had to respect the cultural meaning of the practice and seek a way , within that culture, to either change the narrative or find an alternate and less harmful practice to supplant it. I have also always advocated that local organizations should be in charge of these efforts rather than Western organizations.

I don’t, however, think that cultural sensitivity requires the U.S. to accommodate practices that are objectively harmful and committed on non-consenting individuals.  I am rather surprised to see feminists arguing otherwise.  For me, I see Amanda and purpleshoes conflating the very real need for pragmatic approaches to curbing the more severe forms of FGM in countries in East and Central Africa (primarily) with the relatively rare incidence of FGM in this country.  Personally, I am not okay with sacrificing the clitoris’ of some American-born girls in order to protect their parents’ sense of not having our culture impose anything on them when they live here.  I realize that our country has decided that children have fewer rights than household pets, but most feminists agree this is a BAD thing and generally argue for children to have similar rights under the 14th Amendment as do their parents.  But on this issue, Amanda is arguing otherwise?  Does not compute.

Comment #113: history_mom  on  05/09  at  04:39 PM

history_mom, fair enough. I will agree that I was overstepping with the comparison, and I absolutely agree that any effort to eradicate FGM had to respect the cultural meaning of the practice and seek a way , within that culture, to either change the narrative or find an alternate and less harmful practice to supplant it. I have also always advocated that local organizations should be in charge of these efforts rather than Western organizations.

I may be twitchy here because I have seen some really unpleasant things go down in my local immigrant communities recently in the name of “well-meaning” white people who are concerned about the things They do to Their Women. And the FGM debate verges over into that territory so easily that I feel the need to pull it back. But I don’t feel the need to pull it back any further then your position as stated in this comment, where it seems reasonable in context.

p.s: I also am coming off of several months of discussing male circumcision with my S.O, who is from an ethnic background where male infant circumcision is practiced. So my opinion might be being influenced by this discussion, in which frankly I think chopping bits off your baby is a NO NO NO NO NO NO REPRODUCING kind of position (where I am involved, at least) but will concede that there is a slight slight chance that an older teenager could reasonably consent to a circumcision.

Comment #114: purpleshoes  on  05/09  at  05:06 PM

purpleshoes, I don’t think any attempt to be non-imperialistic must necessarily require that we let people abuse others “because it’s their culture.” Should we stop campaigning against the law in Uganda because killing gay people is just part of their culture?

Where it crosses the line is where we stop people from doing things they want to do, that don’t hurt anyone. Like Belgium’s ban on veiling. That is “teaching people what’s good for them.” Stopping them from forcing anything on other people is not. Just like, say, laws against sodomy are wrong and laws against rape are not.

Comment #115: Rebecca  on  05/09  at  05:24 PM

jadehawk:  You’re cutting out the other side of the outcomes:  How many men complain that circumcision affects their sex life proportional to those that had the procedure at birth, and how many women complain that FGM affected their sex lives, proportional to those that had the proecdure?

In the particular culture I just described? No more than men complaining about their circumcision. It’s a cultural “thing” that makes them “belong”. They feel fucking empowered by the procedure. Do you feel empowered by your cut penis?

More to my point, FGM includes procedures that extend past the anatomical equivalent of male circumcision, and in any event is performed on a part of the anatomy that is much smaller and has far more nerve endings than an infant male sexual organ.  I wouldn’t define male circumcision as “mutilation” any more than I would a tonsilectomy or an appendectomy.  Removal of skin isn’t the same as destruction of nerve endings.

if you don’t think the foreskin has nerve endings, you’re fucking clueless.

In any case, I posted because I didn’t like being told I was deformed.  It wasn’t meant as a rebuttal to the non-consent argument.

and I pointed out that “not liking being clled deformed” is the very same argument these women are making. so which is it? are we allowed to make judgments on whether others are deformed, or not?

Comment #116: jadehawk  on  05/09  at  05:24 PM

Rebecca, I think I have not communicated myself clearly. I believe in self-determination; I believe that anti-FGM activists within a certain culture (no matter whether they started outside or inside that culture) have to decide how to address the practice within their specific context and body of knowledge. I do believe that individual adult women have the right to decide what to do with their specific, personal bodies in an atmosphere of full consent; I am under no illusions that atmospheres of perfect consent actually exist around these very culturally weighted issues.

I don’t deny that just because some old dudes and ladies think FGM is great doesn’t mean there aren’t lots of women who don’t want it. I believe that we should take our tone from them and support them in the ways that they ask for. There is a lot of history around this specific issue where white feminist ladies wandering in to tell everyone they’re doing it wrong has been super-counterproductive.

Comment #117: purpleshoes  on  05/09  at  05:41 PM

In the particular culture I just described? No more than men complaining about their circumcision. It’s a cultural “thing” that makes them “belong”.

Which is why so many women seek asylum for themselves or their daughter who don’t want to undergo it. /snark

Comment #118: phylosopher  on  05/09  at  07:31 PM

Speaking as a circumsized male, I can state with authority that while my folks probably didn’t make the right decision, they made their decision out of a sincere desire for my well-being, not a desire to deny me any sort of sexuality.

As other people have alluded to, the original rationale for male infant circumcision (which your parents probably didn’t even know about) was to prevent boys from masturbating, so the purpose of it was, in fact, to try and deny you that sort of sexuality.

That’s the thing that gives me pause about this decision of the AAP’s:  we have a clear example right in front of us of infant mutilations taking on a life of their own long after the rationale for doing so has been debunked.  Doctors haven’t believed that male circumcision will prevent masturbation since at least the 1950s, but by that point infant circumcision was so well-established that doctors kept on doing it without questioning the practice.  I would worry that genital nicking would not only become established as a common practice, but that it would spread and you would have girls having their genitals nicked without anyone really being able to explain why other than, “Well, we’ve always done it that way.”

Comment #119: Mnemosyne  on  05/09  at  08:05 PM

Which is why so many women seek asylum for themselves or their daughter who don’t want to undergo it. /snark

don’t snark at me, since you don’t even know my position in this discussion. All I’m doing is pointing to the irrelevance of “well, *I* don’t feel mutilated, and neither do lots of other people I know!” as an argument in whether something is or isn’t objectively speaking an act of mutilation.

Comment #120: jadehawk  on  05/09  at  08:15 PM

Yep.  And when the medical community finally said (about male circumcision) with modern methods of sanitation and cleanliness, there is no medical reason, there was such a hue and cry (internal/external, public and private, conscious and subconscious, I think, that suddenly the medical community embarked on a massive research effort to find a justification, “uh, there’s less chance of HIV/HPv contraction.”

Re: “women who have undergone it feel empowered.”  The empowerment doesn’t come from within, but from being able to control other women and other women’s sexuality.  In this way, I think it is much more akin to hazing than the empowerment of something like bra-burning.

Comment #121: phylosopher  on  05/09  at  08:16 PM

That’s the thing that gives me pause about this decision of the AAP’s:  we have a clear example right in front of us of infant mutilations taking on a life of their own long after the rationale for doing so has been debunked.  Doctors haven’t believed that male circumcision will prevent masturbation since at least the 1950s, but by that point infant circumcision was so well-established that doctors kept on doing it without questioning the practice.  I would worry that genital nicking would not only become established as a common practice, but that it would spread and you would have girls having their genitals nicked without anyone really being able to explain why other than, “Well, we’ve always done it that way.”

yup. and if you add to this the extensive list of more or less painful rituals women already have to undergo in American society for fake “hygiene” and social acceptance reasons, introducing another one seems like a really really bad idea.

Comment #122: jadehawk  on  05/09  at  08:17 PM

I don’t know when the last time you guys saw a circumcision was, but I saw one a few months ago, and they definitely used anesthetic.  That isn’t to say I necessarily agree with the practice of male circumcision, but I just thought people might want to know that lidocaine is used these days.

Comment #123: MSAL  on  05/09  at  08:39 PM

All I’m doing is pointing to the irrelevance of “well, *I* don’t feel mutilated, and neither do lots of other people I know!” as an argument in whether something is or isn’t objectively speaking an act of mutilation.

You’re right, jadehawk, that would be a silly argument.  Please show me where I made it.

What I *did* say was that I resent being told that I’m somehow “broken”, which the word “mutilation” implies.  Tell me, do you also go around describing rape or child abuse victims in similar terms?  I’m sure they appreciate it as much as I do.

Comment #124: NY Expat  on  05/09  at  11:13 PM

NY Expat:  I hate to break it to you, but removing a functioning part of your penis for no other reason than religion or aesthetics IS mutilation even though your penis probably functions just fine without it.  Just like removing part of my ear lobe would also be mutilation, even if it did not interfere with my ability to hear. 

It probably doesn’t seem like that big of a deal to you since you have never experienced life and sexuality with a foreskin, but that simply isn’t a good argument to keep circumcising male infants or for calling genital mutilation something that doesn’t hurt your precious feefees.  If you are happy with your penis as it is, bully for you.

Comment #125: history_mom  on  05/09  at  11:37 PM

NY Expat, it is ridiculous for you to think that you know something about a surgical procedure and its effects just because you have experienced them.  What is important is that jadehawk has a very strong opinion

I am personally pretty positive about male circumcision because as a heterosexual woman, it accords with my personal preferences.  Of course, I’m not so self-obsessed as to think that my preferences should govern the physical integrity of men and boys, so I don’t try to tell strange men how they should feel about their dicks.  It is a rare boy who suffers either agonies from foreskin possession or trauma from circumcision; non-loonies can see that the overwhelming majority of men are basically okay either way.  Unnecessary surgery is unnecessary, but then again, harmless surgery is, you know, harmless, so whether the custom dies out among the secular population or persists for a couple more generations in the U.S., no big deal either way.  God forbid a woman should refrain from TAKING A POSITION on dick fashions and haranguing dudes about it, though.

Comment #126: sophonisba  on  05/09  at  11:42 PM

So, uh, I’m coming to this extremely late, but I used to help perform circumcisions at a hospital.  One of my summer jobs in college was working as an aide in a nursery, and so I assisted in every circumcision that happened while I was working, probably about 30 of them over the course of that summer.

The handful of doctors performing them didn’t think it was a medically beneficial procedure (I asked them all), but if performed correctly didn’t do any direct harm to the patient.  The hospital I worked at only performed circumcisions on direct request of the parents, rather than offering before asked.

It’s a pretty gross procedure, or at least it was five years ago when I had this job.  Of course, most medical procedures that involve cutting are about as gross.  Anesthesia is standard by now in circumcisions, so the babies weren’t in any pain (although any procedure like that is going to make babies *uncomfortable* - they had to be strapped down at their wrists and ankles to keep them still, and who likes having that done?).  There were two methods used when I was there - the first involved a metal bell inserted between the foreskin and the glans, with a scalpel run around the flare of the bell.  The other involved a plastic insert, a bit of string to cut off blood flow, and a scalpel run above the string after a short wait.  There was about as much blood as you’d expect cutting off a little chunk of flesh, and the babies had some gauze wrapped around the area to soak up the blood until it clotted.

I’m against it, and I think watching a few up close helps cement that position, but I figured I’d detail my limited experience.

Comment #127: Ferox  on  05/09  at  11:47 PM

or for calling genital mutilation something that doesn’t hurt your precious feefees.

So, since you’re not against circumcision because you give a shit about the boys affected by it and their precious feefees, why are you against it?  I mean, it ‘s pretty hard to sincerely argue that you care about mutilation of a population whose feelings you have such supercilious contempt for.  Circumcised boys don’t stay infants forever, after all; they do eventually grow up and develop the ability to express their opinions in words, even if it is inconvenient.

Comment #128: sophonisba  on  05/09  at  11:49 PM

Final thought:  I totally understand now how dudes get so wrapped up in Serious Abortion Discussions with other dudes without any awareness of how pompous, presumptuous and absurd they look, incidentally.  Yeah, bodily integrity is a big deal, yeah, we all get very wound up about control of our son-possessions, yeah, we should fight for truth and justice even when it doesn’t affect us, but maybe, other women, when we reach the point of telling people with dicks to sit down and shut the fuck up about how they feel about this whole dick-having issue…maybe we are the dicks, at that point? 

It’s possible!

Comment #129: sophonisba  on  05/09  at  11:57 PM

You’re right, jadehawk, that would be a silly argument.  Please show me where I made it.

What I *did* say was that I resent being told that I’m somehow “broken”, which the word “mutilation” implies.  Tell me, do you also go around describing rape or child abuse victims in similar terms?  I’m sure they appreciate it as much as I do.

excuse me, but what part of their bodies are rape-victims missing? what does this have to do with whether removing a body-part without consent is or isn’t mutilation?

And lastly, as I’ve been saying for a while now, if you think you not feeling “broken” means we aren’t allowed to call the unnecessary removal of a body-part a mutilation, then we can’t call FGM mutilation either, since a lot of women don’t feel “broken” because of it either. Double standards make shitty bases for discussions.

Comment #130: jadehawk  on  05/10  at  12:21 AM

sophonisba:  Thank you.

Comment #131: NY Expat  on  05/10  at  12:32 AM

ah, I found the article I was gonna post in here: this woman, as you can see, is making arguments very similar to NY Expats, with the bonus that she can even cite research papers for her side of the argument.

So, one can either accept NY Expat’s claims that male circumcision isn’t mutilation because he doesn’t feel broken (but then also has to accept Ahmadu’s claim that female circumcision isn’t mutilation); or one can stick with an objective standard of saying that the unnecessary and consent-free removal and alteration of a person’s bodypart is mutilation, in all circumstances, regardless of any individual person’s feeling.
What one cannot do though is accept that male circuscision isn’t mutilation because NY Expat says so, but insist that female circumcision is, regardless of what the women affected say.

Comment #132: jadehawk  on  05/10  at  01:12 AM

Fuambai Ahmadu evidently has the same problem as some right wingers who confuse pedophilia with homosexuality - she doesn’t understand the meaning of the word consent, and that informed consent is not possible under a certain age.

Look, I think “snake guy” the one with the split tongue and other body modifications is hideous. However, it’s his body and he has the right to do with it what he wants, as long as he’s of age.  If FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION were chosen by Bondo women of age as in 18 or 21- have at it and I’d even be willing to call it a Bondo beautification right.  Ditto for MALE GENITAL MUTILATION.  A guy is 18 or 21 and he wants to please an SO - hey, cut off the foreskin, have the entire penis implanted or rescultped to look like the Eiffel Tower or cut off completely, and we’d give new meaning to the term “male enhancement procedure’ and I’d be happy to go back to calling it circumcision. 

But as long as either procedure is done to kids, it’s fricking mutilation and child abuse.

Comment #133: phylosopher  on  05/10  at  01:33 AM

I agree with you, phylosopher. I was just trying to point out two things: for one, that it’s a double standard to accept one person’s testimony that what’s been done to them isn’t mutilation, but then reject a different person’s story; two, that a mutilation is such regardless of whether a particular person doesn’t feel mutilated, because by such a subjective standard, we’d never be able to point out certain the harmfulness of cultural practices, because members of that culture often don’t see them as harmful for one reason or another.

Comment #134: jadehawk  on  05/10  at  01:47 AM

Unnecessary surgery is unnecessary, but then again, harmless surgery is, you know, harmless, so whether the custom dies out among the secular population or persists for a couple more generations in the U.S., no big deal either way.

So if pediatricians do start nicking girls’ clitorises as a routine procedure to mollify people who want to do more severe harm—not cutting off part of it, just cutting a little bit—then you have no problem with that because it’s harmless anyway.

In other words, you don’t really have a problem with FGM in concept, it’s just that the people who practice it go too far and do too much harm.  If it only did as much damage as a male circumcision, you’d have no problem with it.

Comment #135: Mnemosyne  on  05/10  at  01:49 AM

So, one can either accept NY Expat’s claims that male circumcision isn’t mutilation because he doesn’t feel broken

Again, jadehawk:  Reading comprehension fail.

I said that males who are circumcised shouldn’t be classified as broken, which is what the word “mutilation” implies.  history_mom at least understood what I was saying, even if she thinks my feefees don’t mean jack shit.

So please, for the third time, stop putting words in my mouth, it makes you look foolish.

Comment #136: NY Expat  on  05/10  at  02:56 AM

I said that males who are circumcised shouldn’t be classified as broken, which is what the word “mutilation” implies.

um, no, the word “mutilation” implies that you’‘ve had a part of your body removed with no medical reason and without consent. That’s what the word “mutilation” means, whether you like it or not.

Comment #137: jadehawk  on  05/10  at  03:05 AM

jadehawk:  um, no.

At least this time you were refuting something I actually said, albeit badly.

Comment #138: NY Expat  on  05/10  at  03:40 AM

*sigh* now we’re back to what I was saying to begin with. just because you don’t feel that a foreskin is important, doesn’t mean it’s not mutilation, unless you’re willing to accept that some women don’t feel having their clitoris removed is a big deal either, and therefore allow personal feelings about the value of missing bodyparts to determine whether something is mutilation or not.

Comment #139: jadehawk  on  05/10  at  04:18 AM

The “F” in “FGM” stands for “Female”, gentleman.

On that topic, when skimming the paper, I noticed that it points out that performing the nicking would not be legal in the US under existing law, but (unless I misread) does not go on to include an express recommendation that the law be changed.  It does contain some unobjectionable recommendations about physicians being aware of and sensitive to their patients’ and patients’ guardians’ cultures at the end, but it struck me as a mealy-mouthed way to recommend-while-not-recommending nicking.

Nicking might be a plausible harm-reduction strategy, especially if the proposed nick heals without any damage or scarring, but 1) we already have a legal consensus that even this lesser of two evils is itself worth prohibiting outright and 2) it isn’t clear that FGM is common enough *in the US* that we need to accommodate the lesser of two evils here.  We’re making a pragmatic argument, after all:  Nicking is necessary to reduce more severe FGM.  But if we don’t have much FGM here to begin with, allowing lesser crimes seems more likely to create a new problem of increased nicking than to solve the problem of (already apparently rare) FGM.  Calling child protective services* seems like a much better way of dealing with parents a doctor believes will carry out either illegal procedure after he or she declines to do so.

The argument would not follow the same path where FGM is widespread, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here (I could be wrong, of course).

*That’s not the same as “OMG WE MUST TAKE YOUR CHILD AWAY FOREVER!” but rather involving the relevant social services to find a solution in the best interests of the child.  That may end up being taking the child away forever from people hell-bent on cutting, law and medicine be damned, but it need not be.

Comment #140: Thom  on  05/10  at  05:57 AM

@jadehawk #135: I agree with you that it’s a double standard to accept the testimonity of one person and reject that of another. That’s why I’m surprised that you would quote pro-FGM African voices but not anti-FGM ones like Ayaan Hisri-Ali. It creates a false impression that the anti-FGM movement is entirely made up of imperialist white people trying to take away by force something that all African women cherish; whereas the reality of course is that there are more anti-FGM activists inside Africa than outside. Considering the personal and social price such activists may be required to pay, and considering to what degree inertia and immersion in the dominant paradigm serve to prevent more women joining in this cause, it’s safe to assume there is even more of a grassroots scope for eliminating FGM than is already visible.

To the points from purpleshoes and others about the credibility of the pro-FGM voices within the African communities where it is practiced: we have to be careful not only about disregarding the voices of those who disagree with us, but also about privileging the voices that are traditionally privileged: male voices first, pro-patriarchy women second. The correct way to approach this is not to privilege or silence any particular kind of voice, but to apply the rationalist argument that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Anti-FGM opinions based on the pain, chronic suffering, and human rights abuse inherent in it need not be subject to the same degree of scrutiny as claims that it is harmless and even positive, because we instinctively understand, as women, that the former claims have a credibility that the latter ones lack.

If we were talking about the total or partial removal of vision in one eye, for example, for all young children regardless of sex, there would be a lot less argument: everybody can agree that being vision impaired is a bad thing and the cultural arguments in support of it would need to be overwhelmingly convincing. But even we in the West are not completely convinced that sexuality and sexual organs are somethign that women have a legitimate right to be in control of, so we contort ourselves into all kinds of caveats and end up practicing the racism of low expectations.

Comment #141: MarinaS  on  05/10  at  09:17 AM

Thom, it isn’t the case elsewhere either - many of the articles I’ve looked at say its declining even in African countries.  Unless self-serving a-holes like Fuambai get paid attention to.  And yes, self-serving,  a young academic who’s trying to make a name for herself by taking a contrary position - for one, she had the least severe process done at a later age, under pretty good conditions from what I’ve read.

Comment #142: phylosopher  on  05/10  at  10:04 AM

Well put, The Lady.  FUambai’s idea that it is not dangerous and her glossing of medical problemsn afterwards seem disingenuous at best, downright lying at worst.  http://www.womenshealth.gov/faq/female-genital-cutting.cfm  My guess ther eis that it’s her anthropological training which today depends on a lot of self-reporting and, like NYexPat’s self reports, in inherently flawed becuase there is no way to compare “what sex would have been like intact” with his only known experiences as a circumcised male.  IF there are a lot of women in teh community having frequent infections, then it ceomes the norm among “women’s problems,”  just as presumed frigidity or fainting was the norm for Victorian women of a certain social class.

Comment #143: phylosopher  on  05/10  at  10:11 AM

I’m a man who had his foreskin removed without his consent.  If this was done to me as an adult, how much money would I be entitled to and how much prison time would the perpetrator receive?

I didn’t want to be mutilated.  Fuck you if you have come to terms with it and want to tell me to get over it.  Fuck you.  Really.  That’s about all I have to say about that.

Comment #144: 3letterjon  on  05/10  at  11:30 AM

@92, yes, of course it’s because of self-selection, but the same sort of self-selection applies to everyone who comes here. We’re talking about laws and medical practices in the U.S., not (as some people on this thread seem to think) in other countries.  Moreover, there are many cultural customs that Somali immigrants will go to the mat to maintain (nearly all the girls wear hijabs, for instance, though you’ll see plenty who pair the headcovering with jeans and a t-shirt) (and just to be very specific, since this is something that a lot of people also don’t know: Somali women do not traditionally cover their faces. The hijab just covers their hair and neck.)  There are other customs that get adapted to the new environment (for instance, the PLACE TO GO on Eid at the end of Ramadan is the Mall of America; you can buy your new clothes, break your fast, and go on rides!)

Comment #145: Naomi  on  05/10  at  12:56 PM

The indoor roller coaster at the mall in KL Malaysea is way cooler, but the one I saw at MoA isn’t bad.

Comment #146: helen w. h.  on  05/10  at  01:36 PM

Sophonisba:  This isn’t a case where I’m “womansplaining” to NY Expat about something that primarily effects him as a penis bearer.  Him saying that “I don’t want to feel like anything is missing from my penis, so let’s stop calling the unnecessary removal of my foreskin—and corresponding loss of function—mutilation.  My manhood is perfect!” is a ridiculous argument for not being concerned about circumcision or comparing it to the practice of genital “nicking” being discussed here. Maybe you missed it, but there is actually a lot of male activism trying to end non-medical circumcision because they do feel harmed by this “harmless” procedure.  Harm from circumcision is not limited to the botched procedures. 

And I’m sorry that I take respecting my son’s bodily autonomy as seriously as I take my own; clearly, I think of my son as my possession since I am willing to cede my parental prerogative to remove parts of his body for aesthetic purposes to him so that he can make his own decision when he is old enough to provide meaningful consent.  I guess I better go have a portion of his ear lobe removed so I can prove I totally believe he is his own person with his own right to consent to body modification procedures.

How about instead of trolling the comments simply to police the regulars here (your standard MO) you actually add something substantial to discussion?  Like a rational argument for ignoring the issues of bodily autonomy and consent (and how ignoring those issues actually will do WOMEN more harm in the long run) just because a lot of men don’t feel damaged by an unnecessary medical procedure?

Comment #147: history_mom  on  05/10  at  02:38 PM

*sigh* now we’re back to what I was saying to begin with

*groan*  No, for the umpteenth time we’re not.

Can you find any part of my posts where I said male circumsicion was okay?  If you can, please show it.  “not feeling broken” is not the same as “okay to do”, as any other victime of child abuse or rape would tell you.

This is getting too close to a threadjack, so as long as you can avoid putting words in my mouth that I didn’t say I’ll be moving on.  I won’t hold my breath, though.

Comment #148: NY Expat  on  05/10  at  02:47 PM

Look, I think “snake guy” the one with the split tongue and other body modifications is hideous. However, it’s his body and he has the right to do with it what he wants, as long as he’s of age.  If FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION were chosen by Bondo women of age as in 18 or 21- have at it and I’d even be willing to call it a Bondo beautification right.  Ditto for MALE GENITAL MUTILATION.  A guy is 18 or 21 and he wants to please an SO - hey, cut off the foreskin, have the entire penis implanted or rescultped to look like the Eiffel Tower or cut off completely, and we’d give new meaning to the term “male enhancement procedure’ and I’d be happy to go back to calling it circumcision.

But as long as either procedure is done to kids, it’s fricking mutilation and child abuse.
Comment #134: phylosopher on 05/09 at 11:33 PM

It’s mutilation even if it’s done with consent, at least according to Merriam-Webster Online:

Main Entry: mu·ti·late
Pronunciation: \ˈmyü-tə-ˌlāt\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): mu·ti·lat·ed; mu·ti·lat·ing
Etymology: Latin mutilatus, past participle of mutilare, from mutilus truncated, maimed
Date: 1534

1 : to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect <the child mutilated the book with his scissors>
2 : to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of : cripple

The “imperfect” in meaning 1 might preclude its use among adults with consent if one uses perfect to mean right rather than complete—to some, their body isn’t perfect in that way unless something is removed or altered.

Meaning 2, one might quibble that the foreskin isn’t “essential” but then, if your penis is six inches long, and five inches is “enough,” then removing an inch from it would be just fine, too.

Comment #149: oldfeminist  on  05/10  at  02:51 PM

I know this person probably won’t see this, but felagund:

“...those groups treat boy and girl children so much more differently. The marker needs to be obvious—as do the clothes—because strangers need to know whether the child is a future master or a worthless girl.”

I get where you were coming from here, but as a daughter of immigrants—who had my ears pierced when I was two—I found this really, really insulting.  Does every middle class American parent who dresses their female infant in pink think she is a “worthless girl”?  Come on, you know this isn’t true.  Most people just have the weird idea that gender should be readable, and that being mistaken for another gender is an insult.  They’re wrong, but I’m guessing that they don’t actually want their daughters to be easily identifiable as garbage.

Comment #150: mamram  on  05/10  at  03:44 PM

Connotation and context versus denotation, oldfem.  My post was in reply to the post about Fuambai’s article, and some of ExPat’s comments, and my plastic surgery example. A rhinoplasty certainly cuts off a part of a body part, but most of us don’t term it mutilation. Same for liposuction. By your dictionary definition, it should be.  t looks like you covered that in para. 2.  So “mutiliation” seems to be a judgment term.

How much evidence is there for that judgment?  IN the case of level 3 FGM, between infections and pain, and intercourse difficulty, not to mention deaths caused by the conditions the FGM is performed in - I would have to say - a lot.  In the case of MGM, I would say not so much, but we really don’t know because we don’t have a control group to work with, especially for infant circumcision.

Comment #151: phylosopher  on  05/11  at  01:48 PM

Not as off-topic as many would wish: http://syntheticpubes.com/post/589891682/this-insightful-australian-report-draws-a

Comment #152: 3letterjon  on  05/11  at  11:19 PM

This is a joke, right?

Comment #153: Hattie  on  05/12  at  01:50 PM

I hate that I’m saying this, but Jill Stanek got it right; this IS “cultural sensitivity run amok.”  If women believe in bodily autonomy, we can’t budge.

Comment #154: Radicalhw  on  05/12  at  03:48 PM

Whatever happen to “do no harm”??

Putting a “nick” on a child’s clitoris is not going to prevent anyone who would otherwise demand a full clitorectomy from doing so. Thinking otherwise is rose-colored-glasses time.

Write the AAP and ask them why a modified form of legal persecution is legally, medically, or morally correct.

Comment #155: Givesgoodemail  on  05/13  at  12:19 AM
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