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Next entry: Okay… Previous entry: Not That I’m Saying Obama Is The Muslim Hitler

I’m not, not that there’s anything wrong with that

Few things demonstrate the right wing ability to exploit people’s short attention spans and lack of nuance like the ritual of accusing people of doing or being things that shouldn’t be considered that bad in the first place. The latest example is the Washington Times op-ed titled “America’s First Muslim President”.  The piece by Frank Gaffney is a delicious bouquet of right wing obsessions and myths, a snapshot of the racial obsessions in the mind of the angry white man.  Witness:

During his White House years, William Jefferson Clinton—someone Judge Sonia Sotomayor might call a “white male”—was dubbed “America’s first black president” by a black admirer. Applying the standard of identity politics and pandering to a special interest that earned Mr. Clinton that distinction, Barack Hussein Obama would have to be considered America’s first Muslim president…

Don’t you love how vague the “first black President” comment was?  Either Gaffney doesn’t know (quite likely, since he doesn’t care) who the “black admirer” was, or he doesn’t want you to know, or you might commit the greatest crime possible against wingnuttery, which is looking at a quote in context.  Quotes are for taking out of context, in order to prop up illusions about an organized movement to oppress the white man.  The admirer in question was Toni Morrison, and she wasn’t actually licking Clinton’s ass, as wingnuts would have you believe, but using metaphorical language, in this case to expose certain tropes about race and show how stereotypes that right wingers believe are the gospel truth are anything but.

After all, Clinton displays almost every trope of blackness: single-parent household, born poor, working-class, saxophone-playing, McDonald’s-and-junk-food-loving boy from Arkansas. And when virtually all the African-American Clinton appointees began, one by one, to disappear, when the President’s body, his privacy, his unpoliced sexuality became the focus of the persecution, when he was metaphorically seized and bodysearched, who could gainsay these black men who knew whereof they spoke? The message was clear “No matter how smart you are, how hard you work, how much coin you earn for us, we will put you in your place or put you out of the place you have somehow, albeit with our permission, achieved. You will be fired from your job, sent away in disgrace, and—who knows?—maybe sentenced and jailed to boot. In short, unless you do as we say (i.e., assimilate at once), your expletives belong to us.”

Certainly worth pondering in light of the treatment Sotomayor is receiving at the hands of people who would deny her a spot on the Supreme Court, on the grounds that they feel that “wise Latina” is a categorical error.

But I digress. Right wingers love to call people names that are things that the people in question aren’t, but which the person in question probably considers a fine thing to be.  Calling Obama a Muslim is about putting his defenders in a bad spot, because obviously we can’t offer a nuanced reply in our short attention span world.  So you feel put on the spot—-do you deny that he’s a Muslim and therefore allow the right wing belief that Muslims are subhuman to stand?  Or do you deny the belief that Muslims are subhuman, which allows a falsehood to stand?

Feminists see this tactic all the time.  The classic example is the “hairy-legged lesbian” slam, which puts you in a tough spot.  Do you validate the slur by pointing to your razors and boyfriend?  Or do you say, “There’s nothing wrong with that,” which is true, but also allows a falsehood to stand and creates the incorrect impression that there’s no diversity in feminism?  Ideally, you approach it from a nuanced point of view, saying both, but then there’s the fear that any potential audience has tuned out.

The urge is to avoid the discussion entirely, but I’m not a fan of avoiding discussions that require nuance and maturity, because avoiding these difficult discussions leads to really horrible situations where we cede huge amounts of ground to vicious right wing liars. But it would be nice to have a pithy retort that at least opened the door to a nuanced discussion.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:29 PM • (43) Comments

“Well, you know that Mr. Obama is a Muslim.” Well, the correct answer is, he is not a Muslim, he’s a Christian. He’s always been a Christian. But the really right answer is, what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer’s no, that’s not America. Is there something wrong with some seven-year-old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she could be president? Yet, I have heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion, “He’s a Muslim and he might be associated terrorists.” This is not the way we should be doing it in America.

I feel strongly about this particular point because of a picture I saw in a magazine. It was a photo essay about troops who are serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. And one picture at the tail end of this photo essay was of a mother in Arlington Cemetery, and she had her head on the headstone of her son’s grave. And as the picture focused in, you could see the writing on the headstone. And it gave his awards-Purple Heart, Bronze Star-showed that he died in Iraq, gave his date of birth, date of death. He was 20 years old. And then, at the very top of the headstone, it didn’t have a Christian cross, it didn’t have the Star of David, it had crescent and a star of the Islamic faith. And his name was Kareem Rashad Sultan Khan, and he was an American. He was born in New Jersey. He was 14 years old at the time of 9/11, and he waited until he can go serve his country, and he gave his life. Now, we have got to stop polarizing ourself in this way.

-Gen. Colin Powell appearing on Meet The Press, October 19, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlHmIcb9wGI

I’ll never be a huge fan of Colin Powell because of his complicity in getting us into the Iraq debacle, but I have to give him massive praise for being one of the first major national figures to come out and forcefully say what needed to be said regarding our national Islamophobia for many months before his endorsement of Obama.

Comment #1: DTG in STL  on  06/09  at  07:42 PM

Ha. It strikes me just how *little* the wingnuts, and their attack strategy, have progressed past the mindset of elementary school or junior high. The Strategy of Ew.

6th grade Bully: “Oh, ew, you’re a nerd, you suck.”
6th grade Nerd: “No I’m not, I don’t! “
*inner monologue….wait, why is being smart bad, again?*
8th grade bully: “You’re a lesbian, I heard you date girls, ew.”
8th grade girl: “Shut up, no I’m not!”
*inner monologue: why do I even care?*
Adult Wingnut: Oooh, he was born in Hawaii, has a Kenyan father,  blah-blah-blah-crypto-Socialist-Muslim-cakes!
Adult Rational Electorate: *ignores Wingnut, votes for Obama anyway*

Because we’re not in grade school anymore, and now it’s just sad.

Comment #2: Blue Jersey Bagel  on  06/09  at  07:59 PM

I’m reminded of a line from the movie Chaplin, in which Chaplin (Robert Downey Jr.), accused of being a Jew, responds simply “No, I don’t have that honor.”

I don’t know if Chaplin actually said it, but it’s a great retort nevertheless.

Comment #3: Captain Bathrobe  on  06/09  at  08:15 PM

Feminists see this tactic all the time.  The classic example is the “hairy-legged lesbian” slam, which puts you in a tough spot.  Do you validate the slur by pointing to your razors and boyfriend?  Or do you say, “There’s nothing wrong with that,” which is true, but also allows a falsehood to stand and creates the incorrect impression that there’s no diversity in feminism?

I’m on a wingnut blog which has come to the group-think consensus that I’m a girl.  Apparently being anti-Iraq war, pro-choice, and making a point of not mentioning my dangly bits is enough to have me consigned to the back of the bus.

The resulting condescencion is amusing, and makes me more critical of the way gender colours my own communications.

Comment #4: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/09  at  08:34 PM

Oo, I betcha that Crypto-Socialist-Muslim Cakes taste of almond and are topped with a honey glaze.

...

I gotta go.

Comment #5: damnedyankee  on  06/09  at  08:41 PM

“someone Judge Sonia Sotomayor might call a “white male”—”

Oh, just fuck right off. I am so tired of this line of bullshit. I know this wasn’t the main point of his article (or this post), but these little asides just piss me off to no end.

Comment #6: Mark  on  06/09  at  08:44 PM

<quote>The urge is to avoid the discussion entirely, but I’m not a fan of avoiding discussions that require nuance and maturity, because avoiding these difficult discussions leads to really horrible situations where we cede huge amounts of ground to vicious right wing liars. But it would be nice to have a pithy retort that at least opened the door to a nuanced discussion.</quote>

I don’t think nuanced discussion is the goal here. Even if you didn’t avoid it, you aren’t going to engage it in the other side. They would just move on to different name calling.

I think this is one of those cases where there are people who know what’s going on and will reject it and people who don’t know what’s going on and will fall for it. And those people WANT to fall for it, so no amount of nuance is going to change things.

Comment #7: David B.  on  06/09  at  08:49 PM

“someone Judge Sonia Sotomayor might call a “white male”—”

Yeah, seriously, Mark, I know what you mean.

Also HE IS A WHITE MALE. I mean, just, factually. It might as well read “someone Judge Sonia Sotomayor might suggest belongs to his accurate demographic”

Comment #8: Mandolin  on  06/09  at  08:49 PM

“Context?” said the wingnut. “I do not know this ‘context’ of which you speak.”

Comment #9: Bitter Scribe  on  06/09  at  08:50 PM

There was a film a few years ago called, The Contender, starring Jeff Bridges as the President of the United States.  He nominated a pro-choice woman to fill a vacancy for the Vice-Presidency.  A scandalous group sex tape was dug up by conservatives, and it was alleged that the VP nominee was the female participant in the tape.

She was grilled in her Senate confirmation hearings by conservatives about whether or not the person in the tape was her, and she refused to answer any questions about it.  It was eventually revealed that the participant in the tape was in fact NOT her, and the President was confused about why she didn’t just say so in the first place.  Her contention was that she steadfastly refused to answer the questions because even if it had been her in the sex tape, it shouldn’t have been something that would have disqualified her from the job.

The best answer a progressive heterosexual could ever give to the bigoted question “Are you a queer/dyke?” is, “why should that matter?”  Or for that matter, to any question in which a progressive is falsely characterized as a member of an oppressed class.

Comment #10: DTG in STL  on  06/09  at  08:55 PM

I don’t know if Chaplin actually said it,

I believe he wrote something like that in his autobiography.

Comment #11: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/09  at  08:55 PM

Being a 2 or so on the Kinsey scale, I actually had the opportunity not long ago to have something like this happen:

“You’re gay.”
“Heteroflexible, actually. Anyway, I doubt I’d suck *your* dick.”

Comment #12: BrianX  on  06/09  at  09:06 PM

The Chicago Sun-Times had a great editorial today.  http://www.suntimes.com/news/commentary/1613081,CST-EDT-edit09b.article  (Hurry, b/c their editorials tend to vanish by the next day)

They were complaining about “false outrage”

The New York Date Night: Critics tried to make hay out of Barack and Michelle Obama’s recent visit to New York for dinner and a show, saying it cost taxpayers a fortune. As if any outing by any president doesn’t cost a fortune.

We’re not that stupid.

The Dijon Mustard Offense: The president asked for Dijon mustard on a cheeseburger last month. This led a Fox TV bloviator to chortle, “I hope you enjoyed that fancy burger, Mr. President.”

That “fancy burger”?

We’re not that stupid.

The Bow: When Obama met with the king of Saudi Arabia in April, he made what critics said was a bow. The White House said it was not a bow. Most Americans said they didn’t know or care.

We’re not that stupid.

The Gift: When Obama met Queen Elizabeth II, he gave her an iPod. What a frivolous gift, said his critics—a major misstep. But most Americans were fine with it.

We’re not that stupid.

Most Americans, we believe, have grown bone-tired of such nonsense. They want to hear smart talk about real problems. Surely the purveyors of fake outrage can see that.

I only hope they’re right.  Most Americans don’t watch O’Reilly, after all.  Most Americans don’t even watch the local news.

Comment #13: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/09  at  09:22 PM

The best approach, in my view, is to wrongfoot them in some way.  Allow the wingnuts to make their assumptions without correction, and then, in a different (more sophisticated) forum, indicate that the assumption doesn’t actually relate to anything that anybody said or did.  It was just a product of said wingnut’s imaginings.

Comment #14: scratchy888  on  06/09  at  09:51 PM

I’m reminded of a line from the movie Chaplin, in which Chaplin (Robert Downey Jr.), accused of being a Jew, responds simply “No, I don’t have that honor.”

I don’t know if Chaplin actually said it, but it’s a great retort nevertheless.

Didn’t know Chaplin said it, but when a German publishing house asked J.R.R. Tolkien if he was Aryan, he wrote back:

I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware noone (sic) of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.

Comment #15: Rebecca  on  06/09  at  10:23 PM

I offer a variation of BrianX’s retort: What does it matter to you if I shave? I’m not going to sleep with you, regardless. [Works with both men and women.]

I’ve also been called a commie/pinko, to which I reply: Yeah. So?

Nobody would mistake me for religious, but I would likely respond: And if I were?

Comment #16: absurdbeats  on  06/09  at  10:49 PM

The best answer a progressive heterosexual could ever give to the bigoted question “Are you a queer/dyke?” is, “why should that matter?” Or for that matter, to any question in which a progressive is falsely characterized as a member of an oppressed class.

I do this all the time.  I’m a substitute teacher in my day job and when I call teenagers out for their homophobic remarks (calling other kids fag or using gay as an insult) and explain that that particular is horribly offensive and I won’t tolerate it, I always get asked if I’m gay.  I generally refuse to answer and ask if it matters and is it any of their business anyway.  So now I have a reputation as a bi (because some of the kids do know that I’m hetero married and have kids of my own because they’ve seen the husband and kids picking me up) and kinky (because everything gay people do is kinky, apparently) teacher.  This messes with some of the kids in a highly entertaining way, because they can’t seem to reconcile my normal, boring self with the mental picture they have of what they imagine me to be.

What I don’t know is why they always just assume that I must be gay because I don’t hate gay people and I won’t put up with their crap in a classroom.

Comment #17: ks  on  06/09  at  11:34 PM

Who ressurected Zombie Pegler over at the Washington Post?

Comment #18: Ms Kate  on  06/09  at  11:35 PM

What I don’t know is why they always just assume that I must be gay because I don’t hate gay people and I won’t put up with their crap in a classroom.

Some people don’t get the idea of compassion or empathy. Really, they don’t - they don’t get that people can espouse causes that don’t directly affect them. (My mother is one of these - not too long ago, after a lot of suspicious looks, I got the “why do you care so much about gay marriage?” question, which made me realize a. that she is clueless enough to think I am straight and b. she has no empathy whatsoever.)

Comment #19: Rebecca  on  06/09  at  11:54 PM

These writers know their target audience is low-information, like-minded email-forwarders.  It’s easier to be a bigot in the privacy of your own home.  (And this op-ed is prime forwarding material, doesn’t even need things about Obama being the antichrist and the Book of Revelation added to the end).  Muslim = different = brown = bad = scary! is easy math there.  The “And what of it?!?” response only works where they know other people who don’t drink the kool-aid can see them—think guy who hid the monkey with the Obama sticker when he realized cameras were on him.  I think a big part of the problem is where to engage people, meaningfully, before even what to say to them.  Not that I have any great solutions, mind you.  But it’s hard to have a real nuanced conversation about anything if they’re just going to either have a shouting match or retreat back to freeper land.  I don’t really have an answer, other than to email them back (as I do, sometimes, with varying results)  one on one, with “And please tell me why you think that’s bad, if it were true? Seriously, Wingnut Cousin Ted. I think this is too important just to agree to disagree.”

Comment #20: vyreque  on  06/09  at  11:56 PM

I guess the best response is to highlight it and turn it back on the person:

Bob: “Obama is a Muslim!”
You: “Gosh, isn’t it a shame that Bob is so frightened of other religions that he thinks he’s being insulting.”

Except, you know, snappier. Someone exhume Oscar Wilde.

Comment #21: MH  on  06/10  at  12:48 AM

Bob: “Obama is a Muslim!”
You: “Gosh, isn’t it a shame that Bob is so frightened of other religions that he thinks he’s being insulting.”

Except, you know, snappier.

‘He can’t be - you haven’t actually wet yourself in fear yet.”

Someone exhume Oscar Wilde.

The charges were never proven, and I had an alibi at the time.

Comment #22: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/10  at  02:00 AM

He can’t be - you haven’t actually wet yourself in fear yet.

PIATOR, I just blew you a kiss, that retort is so fabulous.  Let’s see if I can remember it when it counts.

I’m on a wingnut blog which has come to the group-think consensus that I’m a girl.

Yikes, I have a similar thing going with wingnuts thinking I’m a guy.  I don’t know why, exactly—it’s not as though I’m shy about being anti-war myself, or pro-choice, or pro-healthcare reform, or pro-any number of leftie issues, and I can’t imagine that mindset doesn’t seep into my comments, even when I’m arguing that a certain model warhead is a waste of money, they ought to consider X, or that the only reliable radar detector is the Valentine One (seriously), or that it’s pretty obvious Lewis Hamilton took one for McLaren when he got himself disqualified at the Aussie GP.

Maybe the long compound sentences throw them off.

On-topic: General Powell’s answer was flawless.  I saw him give that live, too, and remember cheering for him (for the first time, I’m certain).

Comment #23: litbrit  on  06/10  at  02:41 AM

“For me, you’re half right as to both aspects; I’m a stubbly-legged bisexual.  But I can’t speak for the entire feminist community.”

Comment #24: Maureen  on  06/10  at  02:48 AM

Tolkien is actually originally german Tollkühn or something. Annoyed the professor being not english enough. He then consolated himself by tracing the descend of his mother to the kingdom of mercia or so.

On topic: Isn’t the guy an author in NR too? And is’nt that kind of thing a bit much even for the Washington Times?

Comment #25: _IM_  on  06/10  at  05:06 AM

Yikes, I have a similar thing going with wingnuts thinking I’m a guy.  I don’t know why, exactly—it’s not as though I’m shy about being anti-war myself, or pro-choice, or pro-healthcare reform, or pro-any number of leftie issues, and I can’t imagine that mindset doesn’t seep into my comments, even when I’m arguing that a certain model warhead is a waste of money, they ought to consider X, or that the only reliable radar detector is the Valentine One (seriously), or that it’s pretty obvious Lewis Hamilton took one for McLaren when he got himself disqualified at the Aussie GP.

There you go.  They, on the other hand, know I’m a librarian.

Don’t suppose you wanna play my boyfriend on the net?

Comment #26: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/10  at  06:49 AM

The right answer to those kinds of stereotypes is, I believe, a slap in the face (usually metaphorical). The invocation of the stereotype isn’t meant to further discussion, it’s meant to derail it, so engaging with the ostensible substance is just getting sucked in. Instead, engage with how moronic/offensive/20 minutes ago the stereotype is, and how that reflects on the person invoking it.

Then very ostentatiously move on, the same way that you would if a five-year-old broke into a grown-up conversation shouting “poopyhead!poopyhead!poopyhead!”

Comment #27: paul  on  06/10  at  10:48 AM

When I hear this type of “insult” directed at me or at others, I just pretend that I don’t realize it’s meant to be insulting, and then act like I’m confused at why they would think that.  For the Obama thing, I might think for a second and then say, “oh, that’s interesting.  Where did you hear that?  I thought he said he’s a Christian”, but in a tone that makes it clear I’m not offended and that he shouldn’t be.  If someone called me a hairy-legged lesbian, I might say politely, “When did you see my legs?”  If I treat it like they are just making an observation and ask them to explain why think that, it usually takes all the fun out of it for them.

Comment #28: bananacat  on  06/10  at  11:10 AM

I recall a campaign speech McCain was making where a heckler shouted that (then) Senator Obama is a Muslim.

McCain said


No he’s not. He’s a hard working American just like the rest of us and we should be respectful.

Or something like that…

I was like WOW…I mean the implication was instant for me, and I ain’t Muslim.

Does anyone else recall this?

Comment #29: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/10  at  11:30 AM

What I don’t know is why they always just assume that I must be gay because I don’t hate gay people and I won’t put up with their crap in a classroom.

KS, I had to check to see if my husband wrote that.  My husband used to teach high school math and he actively challenged homophobia in his classroom and supported and volunteered with the gay-straight alliance.

We were attending a community pancake breakfast with my parents and our children, and ran into some of his students.  When my father got up to get more orange juice, he overheard the students talking ... something like “but I thought Mr. Adams was gay???”.  It somehow hadn’t entered their minds that straight people could possibly care about gay rights or homophobia - let alone challenge it in the classroom or advise the gay-straight alliance from the straight side.

Comment #30: Ms Kate  on  06/10  at  11:32 AM

No idea how to deal with the problem on the net because trolling is essentially an attempt to prevent the creation of safe spaces for minority groups to start comparing their lives and start agitating for real change, but in person, I tend to deal with it like I’ve learned to deal with most of that style of communication, that is trying to deduce the real underlying issue that’s really bothering the person and trying to attack that instead of the straw-man distraction tactic. It doesn’t usually work, but when done with people who actually have some level of good faith, it does work in shifting their real attitudes.

Comment #31: Cerberus  on  06/10  at  11:35 AM

All-purpose response to inquiries/suggestions/accusations of being gay:
“Why?  Are you going to ask me out?”
Works with both genders, and the facial expression can range from curious to disgusted at the prospect, depending on how rude the inquiry/suggestion/accusation was.

Comment #32: elmo  on  06/10  at  11:37 AM

Q:  Are you gay?
A:  Why don’t you blow me and see if I enjoy it.

Comment #33: Magis  on  06/10  at  11:58 AM

@Uhura:

Actually, the exact conversation was:

Woman at McCain Rally: “I can’t trust Obama. I have read about him and he’s not, he’s not uh — he’s an Arab. He’s not — “

McCain takes microphone from her.

Senator McCain: “No, ma’am. He’s a decent family man [and] citizen that I just happen to have disagreements with on fundamental issues and that’s what this campaign’s all about. He’s not [an Arab].”

I had mixed feelings on McCain’s response.  On the one hand, I appreciated the fact that he was finally (though long-overdue) making some sort of effort to calm down the lunatics that Sarah Palin was drawing into his rallies.  He actually got pretty vocally booed by his own supporters for pushing back against the insinuations that Obama was Muslim.

But, by the same token, his response was terribly clumsy and completely implied that being Arab and/or Muslim would somehow be a bad thing.

While I think his heart was at least somewhat in the right place (I believe his honest goal was to get his own supporters to knock it off with the ridiculous false assumptions about Obama’s identity), he actually wound up offending two groups with the response - his lunatic supporters who wanted to have their idiotic beliefs validated, and anyone who was either Arab or Muslim.

Comment #34: DTG in STL  on  06/10  at  12:10 PM

When my father got up to get more orange juice, he overheard the students talking ... something like “but I thought Mr. Adams was gay???”.  It somehow hadn’t entered their minds that straight people could possibly care about gay rights or homophobia

I’ve been on the receiving end of the same thing, especially after I “outed” myself when I publicly went after people writing all sorts of bullshit against gay marriage when that debate was happening up on this side of the 49 North.  Quite a lot of people assumed I had to have been gay and they generally look surprised when the subject of my very female wife comes up in conversation.

They’re even more shocked when they find out that (male) gay sex is a personal squick of mine.  The idea that someone can fight for the right of others to be able to do what that person can find personally repellent is confusing to too many people.

Comment #35: KeithM  on  06/10  at  01:10 PM

Don’t suppose you wanna play my boyfriend on the net?

PIATOR, I’d be honored.  A girl playing a guy would be kind of a reverse-gender Shakespeare thing, with all the potential for fun and farce that implies.  Ha!  We shall make it so.

Why don’t you blow me and see if I enjoy it.

Magis, bravo!  That is pitch-perfect—for guys (I am going to share it with the husband).  I’m still working on a retort for the hairy-legged-female one, though.  I keep coming back to Terri Hatcher’s retort in Seinfeld: when asked if her breasts were real, she said, “They’re real, and they’re SPECTACULAR” while marching off, as in, and you’ll never get near ‘em.  I wonder if there is a way to re-work that for legs.

Comment #36: litbrit  on  06/10  at  01:48 PM

I am LOVING the International Muslim Matrimonies ad that’s getting pulled up b/c of this post.

Plus the “Shoot Your Senator”  and “The Muslim Observer” GoogleAds underneath.

Comment #37: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/10  at  02:23 PM

Q:  So I suppose your kind doesn’t shave their legs.

A:  (To a male) Not I!  I have my slave-boys do it for me.
A:  (To a female)  What your kind know about that?  OR It depends on what kind of kink I’m currently into.  OR You actually have hair on your legs?  Ewwww.

Comment #38: Magis  on  06/10  at  03:41 PM

They’re even more shocked when they find out that (male) gay sex is a personal squick of mine. 

I’ve known gay men and lesbians who are repulsed by the PIV concept.  It just means “something I don’t want to do” instead of “something that should be illegal so I won’t be tempted ...”.

Comment #39: Ms Kate  on  06/10  at  04:52 PM

Q:  So I suppose your kind doesn’t shave their legs.

A:  (To a male) Not I!  I have my slave-boys do it for me.

I would say this to a female too, and maybe ask why their slave-boys don’t do it for them.

Comment #40: bananacat  on  06/10  at  05:00 PM

catgirl FTW

Comment #41: Magis  on  06/10  at  05:50 PM

Man: Feminists are too ugly to get laid, so they become hairy-legged lezzies.
Respondent: Don’t you know that there are large numbers of feminist lesbians who shave their legs and do every bit of feminine grooming? They just aren’t into you, dude.

Comment #42: NancyP  on  06/10  at  08:45 PM

Man: Feminists are too ugly to get laid, so they become hairy-legged lezzies.
Respondent: Don’t you know that there are large numbers of feminist lesbians who shave their legs and do every bit of feminine grooming? They just aren’t into you, dude.

My God - Andy Kaufman has returned!

Comment #43: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/11  at  05:48 AM
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