Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Against prudery Previous entry: Why Else Was Dick In A Box The Top-Selling Gift At Kay’s Jewelers?

In defense of nekkid pictures, even of dudes

FeminismSexTechnology

The debates are going to continue for days about how wrong Weiner was during this, of which I'm going to maintain my concerns that it's much easier to sit in judgment of someone else's choices when you're not the one having to make them while a howling mob is outside calling for your head.  And there will be debates about whether or not what he did is adultery; my feeling on this is that it's alarming how many people feel secure in making declarations about other people's marriages based on what they prefer for their own.  Adultery should be strictly defined by the people in a relationship, full stop.  But this post isn't about any of that.

This post is about another concern I have, and had with the Chris Lee situation, and has been growing generally as the distinction between "men sending pictures of themselves to women who are welcoming of such pictures" and "men who send such pictures unbidden".  I'm seeing a lot of people bunching them altogether and saying, "Ewwww....who wants to see that?  Why would any man think a picture of his cock/chest/etc. be something a woman wants to see?!"  Now, I'm not talking about men who take a picture of their cocks and send it to someone who really hasn't sent any kind of signal that she's interested in that.  I'm talking about pictures that exist in the context of a flirtation or an outright ask for pictures.  I'm seeing the same judgment laid across the board, on Twitter and forums and blogs.  And I'm going to have to push back and point out that this is sexist.

Why? Well, you know what never happens when a naked picture that a woman sent to a paramour gets out?  The "ewwww" reaction.  No one ever says, "Why would any man want to see that?!" or suggest that the distinction between wanted and unwanted pictures is unimportant because there's no such thing as a man who would find it arousing to have that kind of picture sent to him.  To use some radfem terminology on you, that's because we think of women as the sex class, and the viewing of their bodies as sexual things as normal and natural, but to do that to men is considered feminizing and therefore "gross".  

Again, since this is the internet and people want to distort your arguments beyond all recognition, I'm not talking about unwanted cock pics.  Those are often threatening in nature, because men are positioned as aggressive and violent in our culture, and so unsolicited nudity is not only harassing but scary.  But the blanket assumption that it's always foolish, unsexy, and stupid for men to take cameraphone pics and send them to women they're flirting with bothers me.  It carries with it the assumption that women are sex objects and men are sex actors.  And that women aren't sexual beings, but that we simply tolerate sex from men in order to get romance.  I would argue instead that women are very much sexual beings who can find the male body quite arousing, and therefore a picture of a man in the context of a flirtation is not only normal but should be immediately understandable, just as the picture of a woman in a flirtation is.  

Honestly, the fact that gay men exist and can look at each other with lust should have put to bed this ridiculous notion that men's bodies have no sexual allure.  But no.  The myth that women are for romance and men for raw sex and relationships are about a tense exchange of these conflicting desires has such a hold it overrules common sense understanding of the facts at hand.

This bothered me with the Chris Lee situation.  From what I understand, the woman ratted him out not because she was delicately offended that a man would think she'd want to see something like that, but because she recognized him and was upset that he was a cheater. In fact,  he sent the picture in response to communications they'd had, if I'm not mistaken.  The idea was to show off that he had the good despite his age, and let's face it, he made his point.  Personally, I'm glad that we're entering an era where men are toying with the idea that their bodies might have some aeshetic value that women may appreciate.  It opens the door to other ideas that we need to embrace as a society, the first being that because you can look at someone with lust doesn't mean that you should stop looking at them as a full human being with full human rights. And if straight men are seen as people who can incite lust, then we're halfway there---no one is going to take away their right to be full human beings with rights, such as the right to say no.  

Which goes back to Slutwalk, as many things do lately.  In her pathetic attempts to debate strategy instead of stand by her suggestion that anti-rape activism shouldn't be a feminist priority, Melissa Clouthier tweeted something about how women who go on Slutwalks don't understand how men think.  (i'm paraphrasing, because I don't want to wade through her ridiculous Twitter feed.)  The implication is that men, when they see women in short skirts, cannot be expected to see the person in the skirt as a full human being with full human rights, including the right to determine who penetrates her body.  I disagree, of course---not only do I see men accomplish this amazing feat all the time, I also have point out that how much skin is "too much" is so culturally constrained that making essentialist arguments falls apart after a minute's thought.  The argument "you know how men are" is an illusion, and part of what upholds it as an illlusion is the strict policing of men to make sure they don't present themselves in sexualized ways reserved for women, thereby collapsing the wall that's been built between being sexy and being a full human being with full human rights.  

So, by all means, denounce men who harass women with cock shots.  But let's be clear on distinctions.  The problem is not that a cock shot is always unwelcome and that women can be considered as a class not into that.  A lot of women (and gay men and yes, even straight men) find penises and male bodies in general arousing.  And there's nothing wrong with a straight man who wants to be seen as sexy by women, any more than there's something wrong with a woman who wants to be seen as sexy or a gay man who wants men to find him sexy.  In fact, we should be welcoming of a world flexible enough where all people have the right to try to feel desireable, and all people have full human rights, regardless of their sexual status. 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:55 AM • (178) Comments

Great comment from a discussion thread about the Thor movie (paraphrased):

“I’ve heard all about this male gaze thing. But when Chris Helmsworth showed up on screen with his shirt off and low-cut jeans, for the first time, I was like, ‘That’d be the female gaze then.’”

Being female in a culture that makes some (sexist) allowances for female bisexuality has allowed me to be honest about myself about being aroused by attractive men AND attractive women. I would love for more men to feel this freedom too. I used to be alarmed by it because I thought admitting that “Hey, that is one sexy lady” meant I was gay. This was a problem, not because my parents saw anything wrong with it, but because I was already being harassed by my schoolmates for being gay, despite not being gay at all. But I didn’t want to have to go through my entire life worrying about that sort of harassment.

Comment #1: SallyStrange  on  06/07  at  10:22 AM

You see the same thing in some of the comments on “Game of Thrones”.  Naked women?  No problem!  This is the best show ever!  It’s so awe…oh my god, they just showed a penis!  Gross!

Comment #2: prufrock  on  06/07  at  10:53 AM

This bothered me with the Chris Lee situation.  From what I understand, the woman ratted him out not because she was delicately offended that a man would think she’d want to see something like that, but because she recognized him and was upset that he was a cheater.

And this seems to be the problem with corporate media.  Thier false equivilency.  I really don’t care about the non-public lives of most people, but when they start regulating my non-public lives and fail to stand up to their own standards, I’ll call hypocricy.

The implication is that men, when they see women in short skirts, cannot be expected to see the person in the skirt as a full human being with full human rights, including the right to determine who penetrates her body.

That reminds me of the Rape Crisis Scotland ad that was making its rounds on facebook.

The argument “you know how men are” is an illusion, and part of what upholds it as an illlusion is the strict policing of men to make sure they don’t present themselves in sexualized ways reserved for women

And pointing out the blind spot in the argument “you know how men are in this society”.  It focuses the discussion on “Why” rather than “because.”

Comment #3: cynickal  on  06/07  at  10:54 AM

Heck, the standard world even has different definitions of what passes as being unclothed for a man and a woman.

Comment #4: paul  on  06/07  at  11:02 AM

I’ll say it—Chris Lee looked kind of hot in that photo. That doesn’t change the fact that he’s a two timing creep. But that photo said, “I’ve got abs and I know it, and I’m not ashamed to show it.” This kind of photo between consenting adults is rather boring to me because I just don’t give a damn what others are doing with their sex lives.

For right wing whiners, please know that there is some fallout for Weiner and there is no double standard because he’s a Democrat. (Democrat’s as a general rule don’t insert their beliefs into other peoples sex lives so sex scandals involving them are usually more boring for the media to cover.) For one thing, this will make it much, much harder for him to run for mayor of New York City. But what’s worse for women is Weiner has a 100% rating with Planned Parenthood. This “scandal” makes him a less effective spokesperson for women at a time when we need all the help in congress that we can get.

Comment #5: serious bette  on  06/07  at  11:07 AM

One of the other reasons I think a lot of men are uncomfortable with physical displays of male sexuality is because they’re jealous of/threatened by men who are better looking than they are.

Men who have privilege are used to having privilege based on social status, wealth, profession, etc.  They also tend to be (at least in the U.S.) doughy, pasty, poorly-dressed louts.*  I can only imagine that the thought of *their* women being aroused by a young, fit, handsome, well-dressed man must scare the hell out of them.  Especially if he’s not particularly wealthy, and doubly especially if he’s from the wrong race, religion, or community.

* NTTAWWT, and there are certainly women who go for doughy men, but you know what I mean.

Maybe that’s where the myth of the Latin pool-boy comes in.  It’s every wealthy, fat, old white guy with a trophy wife’s worst nightmare: a young brown dude who gets his wife hot in a way that his ugly rich ass can’t.

Comment #6: Dave Fried  on  06/07  at  11:30 AM

Maybe a little off-topic, but I’m not clear on whether Weiner actually meant to send that particular photo to that particular college student. How does Brietbart say he obtained the photos? Was Weiner hacked or did Brietbart collect them from the women Weiner was flirting with?

Comment #7: JilliefromChile  on  06/07  at  11:31 AM

“we should be welcoming of a world flexible enough where all people have the right to try to feel desireable, and all people have full human rights, regardless of their sexual status.”

God damn right!

Comment #8: Mark  on  06/07  at  11:34 AM

All this goes to one of America’s greatest problems—being ashamed about sex.  Sad…

BTW, Amanda, I recall you moved recently, is Weiner now your Congresscritter?

Comment #9: James  on  06/07  at  11:48 AM

@8 I think that cuts to the heart of it. It harkens to a lot of strategy/theory debates in feminism regarding women and sexuality and objectification. Feeling lust for women and focusing on their sexual attributes would be much less fraught if the culture could view them as human beings with other wants and other skills, and didn’t simultaneously cast sexual performance as inherently degrading or feminine. It comes down to either trying to reduce the number of half-naked women draped over cars to sell them, or allowing half-naked men to do the same, and viewing both as not doing something degrading that robs them of their humanity, and it’s where I tend to split with radfems.

Comment #10: JilliefromChile  on  06/07  at  11:52 AM

Can I not give a crap what consenting adults do, while still thinking he’s a douche for that level of flirtation when he’s married to someone else?

And can I still think he’s an idiot for doing such a thing in an environment where even the tiniest misstep by a liberal results in a massive media pileon, which is detrimental to the progressive cause not only because it removes a pretty stalwart liberal from any real power and distracts everyone from the ongoing corporate takeover?

Comment #11: felagund  on  06/07  at  11:54 AM

When I found out about the Wiener pics, I had two minor concerns.  Was this harassing to the recipient, and did his wife feel like this crossed a boundary of unfaithfulness?  Other than that, I see no problem with this.

I sext.  I’ll admit it.  And the men I send pics to send me pics back.  In fact, by taking a few photos of myself, I can get photos and videos from multiple men.  But of course I’m just a silly liberal feminist, and no Real Woman would ever send pictures of herself in order to get pictures in return.

The funny thing is that Wieners chest pic is no more revealing than the picture of the Republican Congressman who is plastered on every issue of Men’s Health.  I can’t remember his name, but if it’s ok for him to display his sexy chest in every grocery store in the country, then how can it possibly be wrong to post a chest pic to Twitter?

Comment #12: bananacat  on  06/07  at  11:57 AM

I would argue instead that women are very much sexual beings who can find the male body quite arousing, and therefore a picture of a man in the context of a flirtation is not only normal but should be immediately understandable, just as the picture of a woman in a flirtation is.

Ever since people have been able to chat online they have been swapping pictures, following the old rule of “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours.” In this situation, men don’t have to make the first move, or even reciprocate if they don’t want to.

But to me, traders should be anonymous or at least pseudonymous. Why someone with a lot to lose would swap identifiable pictures under his own name is beyond me.

Now, for a partnered person, online flirtation can easily be a goal in itself. It reassures you that you haven’t lost your appeal, while hopefully avoiding any messy real-world complications. Further, a good fantasy often beats reality. You would think a newlywed wouldn’t feel jaded enough to need such validation though.

The other downside is the fake picture. But as long as you’re not planning to turn flirtation into messy reality, it should not bother either side.

Comment #13: Hector B.  on  06/07  at  12:13 PM

I was raised with the full hardcore Men As Sexual Actors vs. Women As Sexual Objects dichotomy, and I don’t mind saying that it did me a lot of damage and caused me to hurt good people in my confusion.  The way out was, as Amanda notes, the fact that gay men find one another attractive—once I thought about that for a moment, then it became clear that the dichotomy was absurd, at which point a lot of things got better very quickly for me.

So, um—thanks, gay guys, for being yourselves and incidentally giving me an out from Patriarchy BS.

Comment #14: Punditus Maximus  on  06/07  at  12:15 PM

#11 felegund, that pretty much sums up my thoughts on the issue. I don’t have a problem understanding that men’s bodies can be and are seen as sexual. And I understand marriages are as individual as the people in them so this could be not a big deal to his wife.

However, I do NOT understand why people (it seems men in particular) do this when they are in the public eye. NOTHING is truly secure on the internet, and I cannot believe Weiner thought this would never surface. He’s a fool for thinking so, and he’s a huge disappointment for doing something so truly stupid as one of the few advocates for women in our government.

Comment #15: Livi  on  06/07  at  12:15 PM

“Can I not give a crap what consenting adults do, while still thinking he’s a douche for that level of flirtation when he’s married to someone else?”

That pretty much sums up my gut reaction to this whole to do, although it proceeds from the assumption that his wife was unaware of what he was up to and that there was no pre-standing agreement that such flirtation was ok for either of them.  Assuming that his wife was unaware and as a result was blindsighted by the whole thing, then I definitely think he’s a creep for carrying on with these online flirtations.  I’ve heard some rumblings that Weiner and his wife did have some sort of pre-agreed upon arrangement where flirtations and online nonsense was ok, but until I hear it from either of them directly I think it’s only prudent to assume that isn’t the case.

Then again, my gut instinct is that sexting like this does not rise to the level of infidelity, in my mind that still involves actual, in person sexual contact between two people.  That is to say that I don’t think this is nearly as egregious as Weiner actually getting it on with someone other than his wife (and again assuming his wife was unaware and had not given him the freedom to do so.)  I certainly don’t think this or should be a career ender for Weiner, he used some bad judgment for sure, but then again he’s never cast himself in the role of family values crusader so I don’t think there is much in the way of hypocrisy involved in his conduct. 

My only real snark is that he was apparently too clueless to grasp how easy it might be for him enemies to find this stuff and use it against him to create a big scandal and embarrassment for him.  In this day and age I would never make such an assumption and that is why I would never, ever leave something that potentially damaging to my life and reputation where it could be accessed by somebody with enough tech savvy (and I’m not even in politics.)

Comment #16: Lolagirl  on  06/07  at  12:16 PM

bananacat@12, exactly.

You forgot Weiner’s alleged tented underpants pic, though.

Comment #17: Hector B.  on  06/07  at  12:17 PM

Felagund @11:  I’m with you…but…

can I not also just forgive him for being a human who did a very human thing?  I don’t think there was any failure as a representative in what he did.  He’s still committed to an agenda he thinks is best for his constituents and it’s one with which I agree.

Yeah, he messed up and he lied about it which, under the circumstances, is a very human thing as well.  He got busted for it, but his crimes are small, human crimes.  I’m thinking I can forgive him rather than condemn him.  It isn’t like he ran for office on a “I’m so damned Christian that Jesus envies me..and family values blah blah blah” platform.  His platform has been “Medicare for everyone and let’s have government help people live better lives”.  I don’t think he ever promised anyone he wouldn’t take a picture of his dick.

Also, regarding the main theme of this topic…I take a “whatever floats your boat” attitude towards photos of sex organs.  If you enjoy them, I don’t condemn you for it regardless of the organ of choice.  Personally, I enjoy seeing women naked.  That’s just me.  If women or men enjoy seeing men naked, or pictures of naked men, more power to them.  There’s no shortage of naked men, so life is good.  It’s no big deal.

Comment #18: DBK  on  06/07  at  12:18 PM

So, um—thanks, gay guys, for being yourselves and incidentally giving me an out from Patriarchy BS.

I have actually been trying to make the point the homophobia is largely tied up in misogyny and regressive gender roles.  In a way, marriage equality does threaten traditional marriage, as long as you understand that traditional marriage refers to unequal relationships where women have little power.  The mere existence of same-sex partnerships that turn out well might make oppressed women think about relationships in general, and realize that maybe they don’t have to force themselves into a mold that they were taught from childhood.

Comment #19: bananacat  on  06/07  at  12:25 PM

I always think the eww reaction is because so many pictures of guys that I’ve seen are taken poorly.  Bad white balance - greenish or off color - dark or dingy setting, bad or cheap props… I dunno.

Personally, I’ve always said ‘no’ because I know pictures will get out eventually.  They can be stolen en-routes; they can be forgotten or stolen from someone’s computer or cache later.  But that solution doesn’t work for everyone.

I think it’s probably time we made the base judgement that any uncited, unsourced photo is stolen.

Comment #20: Crissa  on  06/07  at  12:56 PM

Well, you know what never happens when a naked picture that a woman sent to a paramour gets out?  The “ewwww” reaction.  No one ever says, “Why would any man want to see that?!” or suggest that the distinction between wanted and unwanted pictures is unimportant because there’s no such thing as a man who would find it arousing to have that kind of picture sent to him.

Sorry Amanda, you are outright wrong when you say no one says “Eeeewww” at pictures of nude women. If the (publicly revealed) photos are of fat women, old women, hairy women, or other women somehow not high on the porn scale of hawtness, you can bet there would be a lot of “eeewww, who would want to fuck that” reactions. Obviously, given that fully clothed older, fat, hairy, and other women not high on the Porn hawtness scale get those sorts of remarks every day.

All women may be the “sex class” but not all of them get a passing grade from the patriarchy. In fact, making sure everyone knows when a woman doesn’t get a pass (and making those remarks brutal) means that other women work even harder to keep the good grades (especially since that bar keeps getting higher).

I now return you to the actual topic of the post. /diversion

Comment #21: wondering  on  06/07  at  01:00 PM

I always think the eww reaction is because so many pictures of guys that I’ve seen are taken poorly.  Bad white balance - greenish or off color - dark or dingy setting, bad or cheap props… I dunno.

But this is a direct consequence the male-as-default mindset.  Women and girls are taught from early childhood how to look good in pictures, how to take good pictures, AND how to evaluate whether pictures of them fit into the accepted good and bad.  We’re taught to view ourselves the way het males view us, so we can better determine how to please them.  Men and boys experience a small amount of this, but most of them don’t get it to nearly the extent that women do.  They’re not used to viewing themselves the way het women view them, so it’s harder for them to determine if they’re taking great pictures.

Comment #22: bananacat  on  06/07  at  01:02 PM

I mean, specifically to these pictures.  There are many instances of ‘eww’ where it’s totally homophobic.

Comment #23: Crissa  on  06/07  at  01:05 PM

Exactly, cat.

Comment #24: Crissa  on  06/07  at  01:06 PM

There are some things that are simply hardwired into human beings. Repulsion is one of them. I’m not sure we have the ability to alter our repulsion at male sexuality just through changing mores.

I think maybe I just missed out on the fun of ‘sexting’ but it strikes me as incredibly narcissistic and naive. I guess AW never read about the teenage girls who sent naked pictures of themselves which immediately became public - when was all this happening? Like five years ago?

There is ‘charge’ of erotic gratification in exhibitionism - this explains transvestism. I guess AW falls into this category - he’s gone beyond simple vanity into narcissism. Oh, and he has less horse-sense than a teenage girl. Whether the college girl ‘wanted’ the pix or not, the main erotic beneficiary of the photos was AW, not the girl. He gets all hot and bothered revealing himself.

We were all big fans of AW, taking on Clarence Thomas. He was the liberal pugilist (a rare breed) - but he should’ve been ‘more masculine’ in realizing that hey, you make enemies and you better not leave the drawbridge open. You have to get a more siege mentality when you start attacking big shots like a Supreme Court Justice.

I’m with Pelosi on this one. This man is too obsessed with himself and sex to hold the kind of power he has.

Zero sympathy from me. I was convinced it was some sort of a Breitbart cabal to take him down (and that’s part of the story), but AW deserves this fate, perhaps not because he gets turned on by revealing his body via the web (s o r t a k i n d a perverted no matter how libertine you may be) but simply because he was a damned fool.

Comment #25: KingElvis  on  06/07  at  01:10 PM

If the (publicly revealed) photos are of fat women, old women, hairy women, or other women somehow not high on the porn scale of hawtness, you can bet there would be a lot of “eeewww, who would want to fuck that” reactions.

Exhibit A: Yoko Ono.

 

Comment #26: Cris (without an H)  on  06/07  at  01:13 PM

One of the other reasons I think a lot of men are uncomfortable with physical displays of male sexuality is because they’re jealous of/threatened by men who are better looking than they are.

As a doughy, pasty, poorly-dressed lout, I have to agree with this.  Of course, not having wealth or social status to offset that may exacerbate the situation. 

I don’t see how I can be competitive with a guy who doesn’t register as “N/A” in the “attractiveness” category.  Of course that’s scary.

Comment #27: Brian  on  06/07  at  01:14 PM

Very well said Amanda!  Some of the reactions have been driving me crazy.  I saw posters on Jezebel (Jezebel!) posting “ewwwww” and then following up with, “if you want to make me hot, text me a picture of you folding laundry” .

Ech. I hate that shit.  Nothing hot about folding laundry sorry!  Whether I find dick shots arousing or not, I am definitely capable of being visually stimulated by a man’s body. 

Comment #28: Daisy  on  06/07  at  01:16 PM

And I don’t think any of this counts as an affair, or “cheating”.  Personally, if there realy was phone sex (as rumored), I would consider that cheating.  But the pictures?  I wouldn’t like it, but I could talk that one out.  Like you said everyone is different, but I have seen so much pearl clutching over this.  Come on!  The internet has been around for along time now.

Comment #29: Daisy  on  06/07  at  01:19 PM

My feelings on Weiner are more or less unchanged, although I’m disappointed in hell at him (I mean, seriously—he had to know people were going to be gunning for him).

AFAIK, Weiner has not made any political bank on being a “moral” person, and especially trying to make his version of sexual morality the law of the land. For me, what he did was fucking stupid as hell, but I can’t get myself outraged over it like I have with countless republican pols outlawing all sorts of fucking but their own, and Elliot Spitzer making his big bad prosecutorial name for himself by busting hookers and then going for a little strange himself. So no, he shouldn’t have to resign, he’s not a hypocrite, he’s just a man who did something incredibly stupid.

Of course I get schadenfreude from republicans fucking up the way they have, but I still feel like liberals take a few too long in their victory laps of late. Every time Rachel Maddow (who I still heart to death) was talking about the special election that just happened in NY, despite the massive sea change that happened in the politics of the region over medicare, she always had to show the picture of Chris Lee that was posted to Gawker, often several times in the same segment, and even before the Weiner thing, I getting really sick of it. So now it’s our turn, and you know the Republicans are going to pay that shit back with interest.

Comment #30: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/07  at  01:24 PM

@Amanda

1. ” I would argue instead that women are very much sexual beings who can find the male body quite arousing.” Am I parsing this sentence correctly when I say you’re much more vigorous in arguing for the sexual agency of women (“very much sexual”)  compared to the inherent sexual attractiveness of men (“can find”,“quite arousing”).  So to clarify, are you saying that men and women are inherently equal in physical attractiveness, or merely that women can find some men to be pretty attractive?

2. As a hetero male, I can attest that the easiest way to make me feel sexual is social validation. Which in practice means getting a compliment from a woman. Being told I’m attractive by my guy friends is only marginally more useful to me than getting compliments from my family. So is the answer here to start a wide campaign exhorting women to tell men how attractive they find them? Are there social forces that penalize women for expressing physical attraction to men? Do guys penalize women for expressing physical interest in them? I’d be interested in your thoughs about this.

Comment #31: ArielNYC  on  06/07  at  01:24 PM

“and all people have full human rights” Does this include the unborn? Oh wait,look who I’m dealing with. Oh,and way to be shallow guys,really.

Comment #32: Iamrightandyouareallwrong  on  06/07  at  01:28 PM

Crissa understands:

Personally, I’ve always said ‘no’ because I know pictures will get out eventually.

Y’all might want to think that the esteemed Mr Weiner was doing nothing more than what millions of other people have done, and that’s true enough, but there are implications to this crap.  Mr Weiner might lose his job over this, whether he has to resign—which he’s said he won’t do—or loses at the next election, and that’s all very public now, but think of how many ex-girlfriend sites there are where women have given these pics to their boyfriends, and now their pics are all over the internet.  What happens to the young career woman, who worked hard in college and got a good job, when one of her co-workers—especially a subordinate—finds a picture of her on the internet with her boyfriend having shot his wad on her face?  How does that woman maintain the respect needed to continue in her career?  Some will tough it out, but the odds are pretty high that there will be others who can’t, others who will lose their jobs or at least any opportunity for career advancement.

Comment #33: Dana  on  06/07  at  01:28 PM

Sorry Amanda, you are outright wrong when you say no one says “Eeeewww” at pictures of nude women. If the (publicly revealed) photos are of fat women, old women, hairy women, or other women somehow not high on the porn scale of hawtness, you can bet there would be a lot of “eeewww, who would want to fuck that” reactions.

That may be, but a quick google shows that many men are attracted to “Big Beautiful Women.” And somebody out there must be watching granny porn, otherwise it wouldn’t exist.

Comment #34: Hector B.  on  06/07  at  01:29 PM

Also,this whole thread is so warped and hypocritical,it’s not even funny.

Comment #35: Iamrightandyouareallwrong  on  06/07  at  01:31 PM

MPG: Chris Lee was advertising for a sex partner, while unless I’m sadly mistaken, Weiner was trading pictures with a woman a continent away. One was flirting while the other meant business.

Comment #36: Hector B.  on  06/07  at  01:33 PM

@Hector

Not disagreeing you. Obviously everyone has different tastes. But recognizing that some people do find fat people, older people etc sexy is not at all the same thing as saying absolutely no one says “ewww” at pics of women that the observer doesn’t find sexy.

Comment #37: wondering  on  06/07  at  01:35 PM

@Hector That should say “not disagreeing with you”, but I’m sure you figured that out. grin

Comment #38: wondering  on  06/07  at  01:36 PM

Back in the mid-‘80s, after I moved to L.A., I signed on as the Articles Editor of Playgirl magazine (hey, sue me, there wasn’t much else in the way of magazine publishing in Los Angeles, except Hustler or Guns and Ammo.)

The popular assumption (usually spouted by heterosexual men to me, at parties) was that Playgirl had a primarily gay male readership. But I saw the sales figures and polls, and 70% of the copies were sold to women.

So even a quarter century ago, there was a sizeable enough segment of the female population who were fans of the photographed penis to support a national magazine. (And Playgirl had decent national sales figures then, as well.)

Also went to a Centerfold of the Year live event in which the cute (and hung) surfer dude centerfold was swarmed by hundreds of happy female fans.

Back during the editorial meeting in which we discussed who should be the crowned centerfold of that year, several of the women editors were making the case for a more sophisticated, older model, (not nearly as well endowed,) “He’s a great conversationalist!”

I pointed out the obvious, “The readers aren’t going to have a conversation with a photogragh. They want the guy with the great abs (cough), as their imaginary boyfriend.”

Sure enough, cute and hung surfer guy became the most popular centerfold of the year, in Playgirl’s history.

 

Comment #39: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  01:36 PM

Dana helpfully (?) points out that many men are bitter, vengeful, assholes.

Pictures your boyfriend takes in the boudoir that were never intended to be uploaded to the internet are vastly different from self-pics you sent to an admirer.

Comment #40: Hector B.  on  06/07  at  01:36 PM

DBK @ 18:

can I not also just forgive him for being a human who did a very human thing?  I don’t think there was any failure as a representative in what he did.  He’s still committed to an agenda he thinks is best for his constituents and it’s one with which I agree.

Oh, sure. It was crap judgment, but has nothing to do with his legislating. My beef with him is that he was totally stupid in thinking that 1) anything is private on the Internet, 2) lying about it was actually going to work, and 3) the corporate media was going to do anything other than pillory him and by extension anyone to the left of Genghis Khan*, and therefore set the progressive cause back even further. I mean, just imagine what Breitbart’s, or Boehner’s, personal lives are like.

*Who would totally be a liberal by the standards of today’s Republican Party.

Comment #41: felagund  on  06/07  at  01:40 PM

We were all big fans of AW, taking on Clarence Thomas. He was the liberal pugilist (a rare breed) - but he should’ve been ‘more masculine’ in realizing that hey, you make enemies and you better not leave the drawbridge open. You have to get a more siege mentality when you start attacking big shots like a Supreme Court Justice.
Comment #25: KingElvis on 06/07 at 01:10 PM

Who skated on his many in-person indiscretions, even after he was publicly accused.  Who knows if Thomas would have sexted Anita Hill if it had been possible in the eighties?

I think most every politician has something like this in his or her background.  They’re kept in line by someone who has that information.

What I find most disturbing is Breitbart’s blackmail threat.

Comment #42: oldfeminist  on  06/07  at  01:41 PM

That may be, but a quick google shows that many men are attracted to “Big Beautiful Women.” And somebody out there must be watching granny porn, otherwise it wouldn’t exist.
Comment #34: Hector B.  on 06/07 at 01:29 PM

But the reason you find those pictures only on BBW or granny sites is because the supposed average guy doesn’t find them attractive.  It’s a special kind of porn for special tastes and you best not put something like that in a regular porn feed or it’d be a bonerkiller.

Comment #43: oldfeminist  on  06/07  at  01:45 PM

Hector B—it doesn’t matter if Weiner was expecting to get laid or not. If you’re not being a hypocrite, (and I don’t really know if Chris Lee’s policies were anti-choice, anti-gay marriage, etc—I can infer because of his party affiliation, but he might have been more of a moderate about that stuff), then I don’t really see why anyone should resign for their personal crap. If my boss found out I was a swinger, he doesn’t really have a right to fire me when all my job entails is the programming of databases. If my job entails me trying to convince people to be monogamous, and I make a big deal out of being monogamous and my boss finds out I’m a swinger, then I suppose he could fire me.

Comment #44: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/07  at  01:46 PM

Of course men “penalize” women for physical compliments—if they aren’t attracted to those women.

Comedy movies are littered with scenes in which an (older, heavy, not hot, etc.) woman eyes a guy, or gives him physical compliments and he cringes (and the audience laughs.)

 

Comment #45: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  01:51 PM

Oh, sure. It was crap judgment, but has nothing to do with his legislating.

He’s a political figure whose job depends on his political effectiveness. Not attracting attention to yourself by sending sexy pictures to people you don’t know is part of your job of serving your constituents.

Comment #46: Tyro  on  06/07  at  01:52 PM

And I don’t think any of this counts as an affair, or “cheating”.

My view on cheating is that boundaries should be determined by the people involved, and not outsiders.  Most people would not count sexting as cheating, and it’s most likely that Wiener’s wife doesn’t view it as cheating.  However if they did agree on boundaries and he overstepped them, then it is cheating.  It’s not about a specific act or a line where it goes from cheating to not-cheating.  It’s about breaking your partner’s trust.  I realize that most couples don’t make a point of deciding on and stating boundaries, but I really think every couple should do it.  Being in an open relationship really makes you talk about these things, and yes, it is possible to cheat or cross boundaries in an open relationship.  I’ll admit that if I had a partner who would feel betrayed by me sending sexy pics of myself to other men, I would respect that and not do it, as long as he wasn’t hypocritical or abusively controlling about it.

Comment #47: bananacat  on  06/07  at  01:52 PM

Iamrightandyouareallwrong, the critical word there is “people.”  Embryos and fetuses lack feelings, thoughts, and volition, and are therefore not people in any meaningful sense.

Comment #48: mtthw  on  06/07  at  01:56 PM

Sorry if you already linked to this: http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/why-men-should-join-slutwalk/ , but it really makes your point about Clouthier and accepting the idea that men’s sexuality is uncontrollable, and women’s only response is to cover herself up.

Regarding this: “Personally, I’m glad that we’re entering an era where men are toying with the idea that their bodies might have some aeshetic value that women may appreciate.  It opens the door to other ideas that we need to embrace as a society, the first being that because you can look at someone with lust doesn’t mean that you should stop looking at them as a full human being with full human rights. And if straight men are seen as people who can incite lust, then we’re halfway there—-no one is going to take away their right to be full human beings with rights, such as the right to say no.”

I think it’s great for society to start acknowledging that many women find men’s bodies hot, but I’m less optimistic that this trend will increase recognition of the humanity of naked women. It’s totally possible for men to be objectified, and I would argue that the patriarchy has already done a good job of decreasing men’s humanity and agency with regard to their sexuality by calling them uncontrollable. They’re certainly on the more powerful end of the spectrum, but everybody’s losing here. I’ve noticed that rather than addressing sexism in media and advertising, it seems easier to just start objectifying men, too, and claim all things are equal.

That said, your point is still well made—it’s great way to acknowledge women’s sexuality to point out that men’s bodies are sexy, too. And of course the above critique is less applicable when men are taking pics of themselves.

Comment #49: stuckinbethel  on  06/07  at  01:57 PM

I think this is a good time to remind people that 50% of Americans are adulterers, and probably an even higher number have cheated.  I don’t support cheating, and would dump someone if they did it.  But it’s not a fireable offense, not a scandalous offense, not really our business, full stop.

Comment #50: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/07  at  02:00 PM

What I find most disturbing is Breitbart’s blackmail threat.

That’s what disturbs me the most too.  There are lots & lots of wingnuts out there completely serious about sticking it to liberals, but I can’t think of anyone taking this shit as personally as Breitbart.  He couldn’t be more open about being in a state of total war against Democratic politicians (do I remember right seeing him in video clips yelling at imaginary recording devices in people’s belt buckles the other year?), & I suspect he’s willing to go a whole lot further than blackmail if he’s able.

I just have a really bad feeling about this ...

Comment #51: GSDavis  on  06/07  at  02:01 PM

But could we puhleeze stop analyzing, picking apart, obsessing over Weinergate?

Except for headlines I couldn’t ignore, I’ve avoided reading articles, diaries and blogs and viewing news devoted to the subject.

First because of a lucky (timed, at least) computer virus, but from then on because it was obvious to me that this was a Republican propaganda circus, no matter who twittered penis pictures.

No one in their right mind should give a crap about this, one way or the other.

I’m sure it’s fun for some—titillating!—to be in the penis gallery, but I don’t enjoy being crapped on by elephants.

Why anyone (besides tsk, tsk Republicans) would prolong that experience is beyond me.

 

Comment #52: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  02:02 PM

Also, I’m pretty sure men have been viewed as objects of lust in the past and it didn’t necessarily make things any better for women. While men as objects of beauty seems to have been smushed down since the Industrial Revolution, I am fairly certain that wasn’t the case before.

Comment #53: LC  on  06/07  at  02:03 PM

In my defense, I’ve been on the internet for almost twenty years - two years prior to Forever September.  And I would’ve been on earlier, had it actually extended to my edge of the continent.

Comment #54: Crissa  on  06/07  at  02:04 PM

1. I don’t think it’s immoral to send a nude photo to someone who wants one.

2. I generally do think it’s immoral for either gender to send them out unsolicited (although obviously this is much more a problem with men, I could imagine scenarios where it would be inappropriate for a woman to do it too).

3. I think it’s pretty stupid for anyone in political or public life (other than a celebrity fully comfortable with being displayed nude in public) to be taking and distributing nude pictures that the world might see.

4. Whether this is a deal breaker for Weiner’s wife or not is none of my business.

5. I do think, however, that how people feel about these things tends to dovetail with their own tastes. Contrast, for instance, this post to how Amanda feels about men who procure consensual sex from prostitutes. To be truly in favor of sexual freedom requires that sometimes you allow for consenting adults to do things that you think are disgusting.

6. I am, personally, a little queasy about the level of “consent” that occurred here. It sounds like at least some of the women involved were not interested in / did not want these sorts of photos and that Weiner was pushing the relationship in this direction. He seems like the cyber equivalent of the teenaged boy who keeps trying to put his hands in places his date doesn’t want him to put them.

Comment #55: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  02:04 PM

@judybrowni

Point granted, but rejection goes both ways (and if anything I think men are more likely to be sexually opportunistic rather than reject the woman outright). I was looking for a more gender-specific hurdle.

Comment #56: ArielNYC  on  06/07  at  02:05 PM

I think prostitution should be legal.  However, I find men who get a rise out of buying women to be awful, for the same reason I think Confederate apologists are awful.  Do I want to ban people from displaying the Confederate flag? No, but I’m free to find their desire to own other human beings disturbing.

Comment #57: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/07  at  02:08 PM

Comment #55, Dilan Esper, totally misses Amanda saying (in multiple ways in her post):

Again, since this is the internet and people want to distort your arguments beyond all recognition, I’m not talking about unwanted cock pics.

*sigh*

I knew it would happen eventually, but fifty comments is a pretty good run.

Comment #58: Crissa  on  06/07  at  02:15 PM

I think prostitution should be legal.  However, I find men who get a rise out of buying women to be awful, for the same reason I think Confederate apologists are awful.  Do I want to ban people from displaying the Confederate flag? No, but I’m free to find their desire to own other human beings disturbing.

Well, OK. I won’t derail the thread further (I thought your post was too good and too provocative to do that), but it is worth noting that this argument only works if you assume that the customer of a prostitute is purchasing a person as opposed to purchasing a service from a person.

Comment #59: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  02:16 PM

#58:

Part of the issue here is my point 6—there’s a real issue about “wanted” / “unwanted” here that people are skating past. It doesn’t sound to me like all these women were on the level of “yes! yes! send me sexual photos!”. Rather, it sounds like they were just young women who were interested in the congressmen, in some instances platonically or politically, and that he pushed things in that direction.

Comment #60: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  02:18 PM

Rejection might go “both ways”—but unwanted sexual attentions from men are also discomfiting because of the power imbalance.

Usually, men are larger, more powerful (both metaphorically and literally) and the endgame is that they rape, (by larger margins than men who get raped.)

However, for women to suggest any interest in sexuality publicly, whatsoever, is punished socially more so than for men.

Although from the entitled position of being a male, you may not be aware of that.

Comment #61: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  02:19 PM

A customer of a prostitute is not just purchasing a “service”: he is purchasing an intimate, physical part of that person.

Genitals aren’t Starbucks coffee.

Cute, not to make that distinction.

Comment #62: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  02:22 PM

A customer of a prostitute is not just purchasing a “service”: he is purchasing an intimate, physical part of that person.

OK, apologies for the further thread derail.

But I don’t think this works either:

1. It’s a rental, not a sale. And that’s basically the difference between all slavery and all compensated labor. Slavery is either a taking or a sale of a person; compensated labor is a rental.

2. All compensated manual labor rents a physical part of the person. If you are hired to work in a warehouse moving stuff, they are basically renting your muscles and your back.

3. Even “intimate parts” of bodies get rented occasionally. Wet nurses rent out their breasts, and surrogate mothers rent out their vaginas. Nude models definitely rent out their breasts, butts, and genitals.

Now again, my point is that I think that these arguments are cover for something else, which is that lots of people (especially women) are offended by THIS PARTICULAR transaction. (And by the way, there are also huge undercompensation and working conditions issues associated with it.)

But that’s my point about this versus, say, sending nude pictures of one’s penis out. It’s all a matter of what particular people are offended by. There isn’t, actually, some broad principle that says that one is OK and the other isn’t.

/derail

Comment #63: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  02:31 PM

Maybe a little off-topic, but I’m not clear on whether Weiner actually meant to send that particular photo to that particular college student. How does Brietbart say he obtained the photos? Was Weiner hacked or did Brietbart collect them from the women Weiner was flirting with?

From my understanding, he did intend to send that photo to that student, but he meant to do so as a direct private message, and he inadvertently posted it to his Twitter feed so that everybody could see it. Realizing what he had done, he took the photo down and when Breitbart released the photo, Weiner claimed that he had been hacked, but yesterday admitted that he had that he made up the story about being hacked as an attempt to cover it up.

As for Breitbart, yes he got this one right (the blind squirrel finding the nut), but his role in this whole matter is still disgusting, and his attempt at extortion yesterday at Weiner’s press conference was reprehensible. The dude is just as much of a ginormous douchebag today as he was before Weiner confessed.

Comment #64: DTGslu2K  on  06/07  at  02:32 PM

Substitute the word “purchasing” people for prostitution (rather than Amanda’s “owning”) is more to the point.

If prostitution is just another service job, why is that being molested as child seems to be a prequisite for a majority of those who end up in sex work?

No other service work comes to mind with that requirement on the resume.

Comment #65: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  02:34 PM

#65:

Legitimate question. It’s actually also true of strippers, erotic massage providers, porn stars, and a whole bunch of other people in the “sex work” field. To be clear, I don’t think prostitution is this great societal practice that everyone ought to just love. I think a lot of the feminist critiques of it are quite valid, especially as they go to things like the sex slave trade and the exploitation, undercompensation, and rapes of sex workers.

I just don’t think that Amanda’s PARTICULAR feminist critique—that all prostitution transactions are a result of sexist men trying to “own” women and that the transaction by its very nature is slave-like—can survive any scrutiny. Rather, I think she just feels revulsion towards men who go to prostitutes just like some other people that she is disagreeing with in this post feel revulsion towards men who disseminate photos of their penises, and is dressing up that revulsion as an argument that doesn’t have any support just like some of the people who are condemning Weiner are dressing up their own revulsion as arguments.

Now seriously, I promise:

/derail

Comment #66: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  02:41 PM

“As the researchers note, other studies have proven again and again that most women who work as prostitutes have been physically or sexually abused as children. Farley and Barkan’s findings not only confirm this fact but also highlight that for some, abuse begins so early that the child is not able to comprehend what is happening to her:

Fifty-seven percent reported a history of childhood sexual abuse, by an average of 3 perpetrators. Forty-nine percent of those who responded reported that as children, they had been hit or beaten by a caregiver until they had bruises or were injured in some way…Many seemed profoundly uncertain as to just what “abuse” is. When asked why she answered “no” to the question regarding childhood sexual abuse, one woman whose history was known to one of the interviewers said: “Because there was no force, and, besides, I didn’t even know what it was then - I didn’t know it was sex.”
http://womensissues.about.com/od/rapesexualassault/a/Wuornos.htm

Doubt the same figures exist for wet nurses, if wet nurse were even a job still available in the western world.

But if you don’t mind that your prostitutes had to come pre-molested, continue to hire ‘em Diran.

Comment #67: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  02:42 PM

I’ve heard some rumblings that Weiner and his wife did have some sort of pre-agreed upon arrangement where flirtations and online nonsense was ok, but until I hear it from either of them directly I think it’s only prudent to assume that isn’t the case.

Weiner addressed this specifically yesterday. He indicated that his wife had been aware of his online activities prior to their marriage, but she was unaware of this behavior continuing since they were married. In particular, until yesterday she was was completely unaware that Weiner sent the specific underwear picture that sparked this controversy. From the way he explained it, I don’t think that she was OK with it, as he stated numerous times that she was very hurt by it and he said the person who deserved his apology the most was his wife.

Comment #68: DTGslu2K  on  06/07  at  02:45 PM

So again, I guess prostitution (and other sex work) could more precisely be described as “purchasing” people, rather than “owning” them.

And purchasing damaged people, at that.

Comment #69: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  02:45 PM

Not attracting attention to yourself by sending sexy pictures to people you don’t know is part of your job of serving your constituents.

A Congressman is always on duty, I suppose, but I don’t see such requirements in the Constitution.

First, who sets the standard of acceptable personal morality? I note Louisiana voters have no problem with Vitter’s hiring hookers to diaper him, so there is no universal or national norm.

Then, what is the New York State standard? Can the Congressman be seen going to an R-rated movie? Or coming out of a leather boutique, or branch of Good Vibrations? Can he subscribe to Hustler, or Penthouse, or even Playboy? Is he forbidden to check out the derriere of a woman not his wife? Can he shake hands with a woman, or should he put a glove on, first?

Comment #70: Hector B.  on  06/07  at  02:49 PM

Amanda writes, “But the blanket assumption that it’s always foolish, unsexy, and stupid for men to take cameraphone pics and send them to women they’re flirting with bothers me.  It carries with it the assumption that women are sex objects and men are sex actors.  And that women aren’t sexual beings, but that we simply tolerate sex from men in order to get romance.”

To be sure, Amanda is right that many women can and do find these types of photos sexy.  But the “blanket assumption” she castigates is perpetuated by other women.  The WashingtonPost prominently ran a humorous article last week by Monica Hesse titled “Listen up, fellas: Naked man-parts? Not so sexy.”

Among the interviewed women’s quotes:  “I would like a photo of a made bed,” says Kathryn Roberts, who works at a law firm in Washington. “I would take rose petals, but I want them on top of a made bed.” And not that fake kind of made, either, where the comforter is smooth but the sheets are a jumbled mess.  “Or laundry,” adds her friend Andrea Neurohr.  “Folded laundry,” elaborates Roberts. “Maybe in a wicker basket.”

The author then adds in her own bit of fantasy:  “How about a photograph of you gently caressing the yogurt, as you rotate the soon-to-expire food to the front of the refrigerator? So sexy!”

(http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/listen-up-fellas-naked-man-parts-not-so-sexy/2011/06/01/AGMKSgGH_story.html)

I’m not convinced that it’s inherently sexist in the pejorative sense to joke about the differences between what men and women typically find sexy.  Can women find naughty cameraphone shots of men sexy?  Absolutely!  But do women get turned on by these egotistical self-portraits at the same rate that men do?  Ehhhhhhhhhhh.

Comment #71: CW21  on  06/07  at  02:50 PM

@judybrowni

“Uunwanted sexual attentions from men are also discomfiting because of the power imbalance…
men are larger, more powerful…and the endgame is that they rape”

Are you arguing that women are scared that paying compliments to men will goad them into rape? And could you elaborate on how women suffer socially from rejection more than do men?

Comment #72: ArielNYC  on  06/07  at  02:51 PM

I think that what you’re, and they’re, ignoring, CW21, is the fact that it’s not the act of making a bed or doing laundry that is sexy in and of itself.  It is the presence of men who are being helpful and considerate, and most of the women who say things like that are probably not beating off considerate men with a bat.  You don’t have time to feel sexy if you are exhausted and if you do all of the housework.

We have a pretty equal arrangement in our household and it leaves a lot more energy for sexytime, and I think that it’s sexy that my husband does those things because he is an awesome and considerate guy who thinks of other people’s needs.  However, I do find his body and his junk rather sexier.

Comment #73: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/07  at  02:56 PM

#67:

The issue you raise (1) is completely legitimate, (2) applies to non-prostitute sex workers such as strippers as well as prostitutes, and (3) is DIFFERENT from Amanda’s critique that prostitution is a slave ownership-like transaction.

Comment #74: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  02:57 PM

@ cw21:

http://xkcd.com/714/

Comment #75: Well, what?  on  06/07  at  02:59 PM

felagund @ 41:

No argument.  My point is that this is one of the few reps in DC who is actually fighting HARD to get us all universal single payer health care.  Do we jump on the condemnation bandwagon, or do we get behind him and say, “Bad move on the dick pic, now get back in there because we LOVE how you represent”?

I sent him an email the day he admitted it was his picture and that he sent it.  (Was it only yesterday?)  I told him I am not in his district but I support his agenda and hope he remains in Congress fighting for health care for all.  I’m on his side.  There are plenty of people around to condemn him and call him names and call for his resignation.  We need to stand beside a person who is fighting for progressive ideals.  Oh, and Pelosi should have kept her mouth shut with that ethics committee business.  Whose side is SHE on?

Comment #76: DBK  on  06/07  at  03:04 PM

Are you arguing that women are scared that paying compliments to men will goad them into rape?

Uh, no. She is noting that unwanted attention from a man to a woman carries a greater potential threat than unwanted attention from a woman to a man. That for a woman to reject a man’s attentions is more fraught than for a man to reject a woman’s.

This being the case, men might feel freer to reject women than the other way around. Certainly in my experience, men have felt more comfortable being outright rude to women who hit on them than I, or most of my lady-friends, have ever felt comfortable being.

Comment #77: Well, what?  on  06/07  at  03:04 PM

@INTPagan—No no, I totally understand that the author doesn’t literally get turned on by a picture of yogurt-rotation.  The larger—and way less humorous—point is that a woman finding a junk shot sexy is gonna depend a whole lot on the circumstances.

Comment #78: CW21  on  06/07  at  03:07 PM

@Well, what?  I loved that XKCD when it came out.  That strip doesn’t suck.

Comment #79: CW21  on  06/07  at  03:12 PM

I’ll go on a limb and strike a personal note. I’ve never dated a woman that was as interested in my body per se than I was in hers. And it’s not like I’m a lascivious ogre dating sexually-repressed super-models. One (totally straight) ex told me point blank she liked the feminine body more because of its curves. Another ex would send me naughty pics but didn’t want any from me. If I do get any complimentsit would be for my face. Maybe my experience is totally unrepresentative, but I suspect it’s not.

Comment #80: ArielNYC  on  06/07  at  03:13 PM

No (3), slave owners also purchased people. In fact, in order to own slaves, that was unsurprisingly often the first step to ownership.

With the exception of those slaves they inherited or bred (often personally, using that sexual “service” of the people they’d purchased.)

I used the term “sex worker” interchangeably with prostitute, as I’m also well aware that a high percentage sex workers of every stripe were either sexually or physically abused as children.

But this is devolving into typical wingnut argument tactics: creating strawfeminists; after I state X, claiming that I stated Y; and so on and so forth.

Go ahead, purchase your prostitutes and sex workers, if you don’t mind that they’re damaged people and that purchasing them does nothing to heal that damage.

 

Comment #81: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  03:15 PM

I’m not convinced that it’s inherently sexist in the pejorative sense to joke about the differences between what men and women typically find sexy.  Can women find naughty cameraphone shots of men sexy?  Absolutely!  But do women get turned on by these egotistical self-portraits at the same rate that men do?

I rather think it’s inherently sexist whenever someone says “WOMEN” as in ALL of them do x, y, or z. (Same applies to men, though it’s less damaging and so less of a concern to me.)

When x, y, or z closely corresponds to sexist stereotypes perpetrated by the dominant culture, i.e., women don’t like sex, then it’s even more sexist.

I fucking hate these types of pronouncements, “Men get turned on by X, but women get turned on by Y.” It always has the effect of marginalizing and erasing the millions of men who prefer Y, the women who prefer X, etc., etc. Speaking just for myself, I never ever make my own bed, so why would I find it sexy to see a picture of a made bed? It has no relevance to my life and the whole idea is just stupid and insulting and it makes me feel like a freak of a woman because I prefer hottt pics of erect penises to stupid made beds. So fuck you.

Comment #82: SallyStrange  on  06/07  at  03:22 PM

Maybe my experience is totally unrepresentative, but I suspect it’s not.

Who fucking cares?!? That’s what I’d like to know. Why does it MATTER whether women prefer X, Y, or Z in bed? When it comes to fucking, there is no “WOMEN,” there is only A WOMAN. Or two or three I suppose, if that’s your kink.

Comment #83: SallyStrange  on  06/07  at  03:24 PM

#81:

I’d rather do things that get at the problems with the way sex is actually sold in our society (increase the price, fight rapes, better working conditions, eliminating human trafficking and sex slavery) then declare that any sale of sex under any circumstances is slavery (which is in fact false) as opposed to the rental of human labor (which is what it actually is).

Comment #84: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  03:27 PM

ArielNYC, I’ll counterbalance your anecdata with my own: I’ve never dated a guy who was more visually turned on by my body (which is female) than I was by his, and I’m well enough acclimated to this culture to be able to say it’s not because I’m unattractive. Pretty much all the standard stereotypes about guys being visually stimulated apply to me, to be honest, except that I’ve got self-control and at least some sense of social appropriateness. Some of the guys in question have been somewhat startled by this at first.

So yeah, it’s all individual and “Men” and “Women” are, in this context, basically useless. Statistical measurements have some purposes, but you’re not in a relationship with the average man or woman, and neither is anyone else.

The usual problem with dick pictures in my estimation, as someone who is not constitutionally opposed to dick pictures, is that they’re usually taken by someone who isn’t attracted to men and isn’t used to seeing pictures by people who are, so they don’t know the basics of what a good sexy photo of themselves looks like, the way straight women do. Weiner and Lee’s chest photos both look like they were going for the straight-on pecs shot, like a bodybuilding magazine, not something with a little bit of pose in it as one might see in Playgirl or Filament or something like that.

Comment #85: octopod42  on  06/07  at  03:38 PM

I hope Weiner stays in his job. However much of a fuckhead he might be, he’s a lefter than average fuckhead. Nancy Pelosi is being silly by calling for an ethics investigation. She’s normally smart enough to know that you don’t get anywhere as a Democrat by doing what the Republicans want you to do.

Way back, King Elvis said:

There are some things that are simply hardwired into human beings. Repulsion is one of them. I’m not sure we have the ability to alter our repulsion at male sexuality just through changing mores.

I’m not sure I buy this, part because of my personal experiences. (I know, anecdata) I’m a straight guy and I don’t have any repulsion or disgust reaction at gay porn. It doesn’t turn my crank one way or the other. The only reaction I might have is the lingering vestiges of homophobia making me think that I should be worried if people saw me looking at this.

I’ve always suspected that a huge amount of the ‘ewww, gays’ and the ‘ewww, a lady who doesn’t look like a Playmate after airbrushing’ from dues is mostly performative for other dudes. I remember being 14 and unclear whether I was supposed to say Tanya Donnelly from Belly was hot or not, in a group of fellow 14-year-old boys watching MTV. It was obvious there was a right answer, but I couldn’t tell what it was. You can tell a lot of this is just showing off, but I’ve always suspected it goes very far.

People are repulsed by a lot of different things and how does that happen. My thing is rats. My mom’s thing is snakes. My sister is snakes, too. My wife as a problem with bats. My dad wouldn’t admit to any of the above. I’m not aware of how those things come about, but I gotta think there’s a cultural element to some kinds of repulsion. People in the Middle East having a strong aversion to dogs, for instance, which is why our government used dogs to torture those from that part of the world.

Comment #86: witless chum  on  06/07  at  03:49 PM

Speaking just for myself, I never ever make my own bed, so why would I find it sexy to see a picture of a made bed? It has no relevance to my life and the whole idea is just stupid and insulting and it makes me feel like a freak of a woman because I prefer hottt pics of erect penises to stupid made beds.

My observation (and thus gross generalization) is that most women cannot relax and enjoy sex while they feel that they have a lot of things that they must do, because of how they have been trained in our patriarchal culture. Having the house in order allows them to relax and turn their thoughts away from their mental to-do list.

Comment #87: Hector B.  on  06/07  at  03:49 PM

DTGslu2K wrote:

As for Breitbart, yes he got this one right (the blind squirrel finding the nut), but his role in this whole matter is still disgusting, and his attempt at extortion yesterday at Weiner’s press conference was reprehensible. The dude is just as much of a ginormous douchebag today as he was before Weiner confessed.

[Guffaws]  Andrew Breitbart got it right, while Anthony Weiner lied to everybody, but you think that the villain is the guy who told the truth.

Comment #88: Dana  on  06/07  at  03:52 PM

Again, with the wingnut argument tactics, Dilan.

Amanda already stated she’s in favor of legalizing prostitution, just doesn’t think highly of the men who purchase women.

And in that context, the slavery metaphor is apt.

“Purchase a prostitute, buy a woman, prostitute, hooker, whore” are common phrases, whereas “purchase/buy a hairdresser, barista, gardener, etc.” are not, an acknowledgement in language (which expresses thought) that sex work isn’t a rental of service, like the others.

The phrase “buy a woman” existed long before Amanda or I were born and the idea that people are purchased for sex seems news only to you.

Comment #89: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  03:52 PM

@SallyStrange:

I’d agree that anyone making grandiose statements about how ALL WOMEN do anything is 100% pedaling bullshit.  But that sentiment should apply equally to any other set of individuals who get lumped together based on a common characteristic.  I regularly get annoyed by Amanda when she uses “society” as some monolith strawman.  But in any regard, I don’t think anyone has characterized anything as applicable to ALL WOMEN in this particular situation. 

Comment #90: CW21  on  06/07  at  03:54 PM

From the Associated Press:

But in a new twist, the married Weiner also acknowledged that he had engaged in inappropriate contact with six women over the course of three years through social networking sites like Twitter and Facebook and occasionally over the phone. He said he had never met or had a physical relationship with any of the women and was not even sure of their ages. He also said he had never had sex outside of his marriage.

OK, that one raises a couple of issues. First of all, since Mr Weiner is now an admitted liar, he doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt about the last sentence; count on people looking to investigate that part, to expose him — pun intended — as lying yet again.

But the second issue is a bigger one: if Mr Weiner “was not even sure of their ages,” how could this supposedly law-abiding Member of Congress be certain that he hadn’t sent pictures of the little weiner to underaged girls . . . or boys?

 

Comment #91: Dana  on  06/07  at  03:59 PM

@86

I’m afraid I am too old for what you wrote.  When you say “Tanya Donnelly”, is that some sort of Irish code for nude sunbathing?

“Don’t stay out too long or you’ll Tanya Donnelly.”

Comment #92: DBK  on  06/07  at  04:03 PM

Andrew Breitbart got it right, while Anthony Weiner lied to everybody about shit that shouldn’t matter to anyone but the parties directly involved, but you think that the villain is the guy who told the truth and threatened blackmail/extortion

FTFY.

Comment #93: Well, what?  on  06/07  at  04:03 PM

@Well, what?

“men might feel freer to reject women than the other way around. “
I see your point. To which I say:

1. Men do have less to lose either way. But whatever license men have to be extra rude and obnoxious is probably balanced by their higher and less discriminating interest in hooking up.  So I think it’s something of a wash.

2. Even if we accept that men are the bigger pigs when it comes to rejection, your argument rests on there being a collective, pent-up desire on the part of women to tell men how hot hot hot they are.  Maybe women talk about that when no guy is listening?

Comment #94: ArielNYC  on  06/07  at  04:04 PM

I think men are more likely to be sexually opportunistic rather than reject the woman outright).

You would be wrong.

I know that our society posits that men will fuck anything that moves, but that is not the reality on the ground.  The overwhelming majority of the time that I’ve been rejected by men, they pretty much responded with “not with a donkey’s dick.”*  I have never, ever been taken “advantage” of by a man who wasn’t that into me but decided to fuck me anyway.  It’s almost as if men know what they want and aren’t interested in settling for less.

*And in many cases I didn’t indicate any interest in them.  There are many men out there who are very happy to police women’s appearance with no invitation or social context, just saying “oh fuck, gross” at some random woman on the street/at work/at school.

This being the case, men might feel freer to reject women than the other way around. Certainly in my experience, men have felt more comfortable being outright rude to women who hit on them than I, or most of my lady-friends, have ever felt comfortable being.

Exactly.  Women are less likely to be the aggressor, but it’s staggering how rude men can be to women who made the mistake of flirting with men who aren’t interested.  Women are conditioned to be nice to men when we reject them (and there’s the reasonable fear of verbal or physical backlash when a man is rejected).  Men don’t have that fear, and I’ve rarely seen a man reject a woman with a sense of being flattered vs. “no way, you’re fucking hideous.”

Comment #95: keshmeshi  on  06/07  at  04:06 PM

by their higher and less discriminating interest in hooking up

FAIL. Please reread entire thread and try again.

Maybe women talk about that when no guy is listening?

Really? You think? Who can fathom these strange alien creatures, with their breasteses and their alien minds.

Seriously. Back to Feminism 101 with you.

Comment #96: Well, what?  on  06/07  at  04:08 PM

@91: your *concern* is, as always, noted.  Did I say noted? I meant irrelevant.

Comment #97: Well, what?  on  06/07  at  04:10 PM

Can people stop talking about nude pics as inherently “egotistical” or exhibitionist? Some people wouldn’t send them at all if they could get nude pics of their sexting/cybersex/whatever partner for nothing, like me. I personally do it because it’s part of a fair transaction. Turnabout being fair play and all that. Also I have fairly decent insurance against the pics getting out because the guy whose pics I have is very invested in keeping his interest in certain things shown in them under wraps.

@25: I very much doubt that repulsion at male sexuality (more like male objectification) and not female sexuality is hardwired into most humans. The only people who claimed not to find men physically attractive even as they dated them that I’ve known were women with personal obsessions with traditional gender roles (i.e., even if they were liberal about what others do with their personal lives, they wanted a traditional relationship with traditional gender roles). Appreciating your man for being a strong, protective figure in your life at the expense of enjoying his physical features is pretty much the flipside of the princess fantasy. That says something to me; that repulsion at the male body is tied to the widespread appreciation of those roles, and would become less common if they weren’t venerated in society as what “everyone” wants. Also just to note, transvestic fetishism can only be explained in individual terms, and not all transvestites are sexually aroused by the practice. Besides, suggesting that dressing in female apparel is narcissistic suggests that any female’s sexuality is based in narcissism/love of her own body rather than appreciation of the partner’s.

Not really getting into the prostitution debate. I basically agree with Amanda though. Also I think the fact that some people find prostitution really creepy comes from a different place than anti-sex attitude or anything like that. I think it just might be that a majority of humans see sex as something fundamentally intimate (even if the intimacy is just with a one night stand or whatever)- even more so than food, exercise and other bodily functions- and formalizing it through an economic system bothers them, not to mention a system with inherent power dynamics (employer/employee on top of the usual inferior social status of those seen as objects of desire rather than sexual actors). I wouldn’t go out of my way to disbelieve a sex worker who told me she had no such feelings on the matter, though. It’s possible different people just have different emotional reactions to the idea of selling their bodies, just as they have different reactions to the idea of being perceived sexually, taking a naked picture of themselves, or doing certain sex acts. Of course this is just considering prostitution In Theory, as it would exist without the many problems the current sex industry has (trafficking, disease, pimps et al).

Comment #98: Treefinger  on  06/07  at  04:12 PM

Oy.  @Hector B. writes “My observation (and thus gross generalization) is that most women cannot relax and enjoy sex while they feel that they have a lot of things that they must do, because of how they have been trained in our patriarchal culture. Having the house in order allows them to relax and turn their thoughts away from their mental to-do list.”

Plenty of men, just like women, get stressed out by chores that need tending, or work obligations that are looming.  The need to attend to one’s work and life obligations has nothing to do with “patriarchal culture.”

Comment #99: CW21  on  06/07  at  04:13 PM

CW21, you must be new here.

Comment #100: Well, what?  on  06/07  at  04:16 PM

My observation (and thus gross generalization) is that most women cannot relax and enjoy sex while they feel that they have a lot of things that they must do, because of how they have been trained in our patriarchal culture. Having the house in order allows them to relax and turn their thoughts away from their mental to-do list.

I know that. I’m just saying, it doesn’t apply to me and to millions of other women. Not only that, but using the stereotype to buttress a joke, without being critical of the stereotype, merely reinforces the stereotype that a.) women like sex less than men (which is an obvious falsehood) and b.) women are, and SHOULD BE, responsible for the lion’s share of housework.

I’d agree that anyone making grandiose statements about how ALL WOMEN do anything is 100% pedaling bullshit… But in any regard, I don’t think anyone has characterized anything as applicable to ALL WOMEN in this particular situation.

Right, of course, just “typical women.” Which really doesn’t change the feeling of being told that I’m a freak of a woman for deviating from the norm… the norm, which is, of course, taught to us from birth by the culture into which we’re born (USA land in my case), and enforced via varying degrees of social opprobrium or social rewards throughout our lives, which brings me to the rest of your statement:

I regularly get annoyed by Amanda when she uses “society” as some monolith strawman.

Why? This makes no sense. “Society” refers to systems of institutions and cultural structures and values, not groups of people.

Comment #101: SallyStrange  on  06/07  at  04:19 PM

ArielNYC: falling into wingnut argument techniques again.

No one (but you) has claimed there’s a pentup desire on the part of women to tell men they’re hot, hot, hot, but yes, it’s more likely they’re talking about that with their women friends, than to men, in public.

For reasons which include women being socially punished or constrained for expressing sexuality, more so then men.

“I think it’s a wash”—huh, women have to factor in physical threat with a come on, that men don’t: men, who experience no physical threat, get to be more rude with an outright rejection.

And that’s a “wash?”

I’d love to be on the other side, so that I could be as rude in response as the obnoxious come on from someone a foot taller and 100 pounds heavier.

 

 

 

Comment #102: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  04:22 PM

women are, and SHOULD BE, responsible for the lion’s share of housework.

I meant to add that the “SHOULD BE” part of that statement is a falsehood. Otherwise, as many academic studies have repeatedly shown, women do perform more than their fair share of housework. Looking at you, CW21. Haven’t read any of those studies, have you?

Comment #103: SallyStrange  on  06/07  at  04:26 PM

But I thought they were just harassing the poor innocent guy because he’s a fighter?  It’s so confusing.  Still highly skeptical?  wink

Comment #104: Anonymouse  on  06/07  at  04:28 PM

One of the other reasons I think a lot of men are uncomfortable with physical displays of male sexuality is because they’re jealous of/threatened by men who are better looking than they are.

As a doughy, pasty, poorly-dressed lout, I have to agree with this.  Of course, not having wealth or social status to offset that may exacerbate the situation.

Comment #27: Brian

—————————————————————————

What’s interesting is how often it’s said that women are universally jealous of and threatened by other women who are more attractive than they are. It’s a “common sense” conventional wisdom that comes up any time a female supermodel or movie star and a relatively average-looking woman are in the same proximity. Sitcoms and movies set this up every so often.
In reality, practically all women are pretty much surrounded by images of the few women who comply with the rarified beauty standards of the entertainment, fashion, and advertising industries and even seek those images out whenever we buy a celebrity tabloid, a copy of Vogue, or a movie ticket.
It’s a trite joke that’s also kind of a neat little example of how the male perspective is culturally centralized and then projected onto the rest of us.
Probably a tangent on my part, but I just think it’s interesting.

As far as shots of male junk and pects and whatnot, I tend to say that 2-dimensional images of male body parts don’t do it for me personally, but I think that’s largely due to the context in which those images are usually presented. In Weiner’s case, those images are tied in with very public humiliation. So even though empirically I think he looks pretty good, the images give me a cringey feeling.

Women are at least as sexually “visual” as men are, but for men and women both, the context of the image and in what circumstance you’re viewing it makes all the difference.

 

Comment #105: snobographer  on  06/07  at  04:31 PM

@octopod42

Fair enough. But ask yourself this: Did none of your lovers express specific sexual excitement about some part of your body?

Again, I may be unfairly generalizing here, but my impression is that, absent body building\sculpting, a good chunk of women are just not that excited about the male body per se.

Comment #106: ArielNYC  on  06/07  at  04:31 PM

One of the other reasons I think a lot of men are uncomfortable with physical displays of male sexuality is because they’re jealous of/threatened by men who are better looking than they are.

As a doughy, pasty, poorly-dressed lout, I have to agree with this.  Of course, not having wealth or social status to offset that may exacerbate the situation.

Comment #27: Brian

————————————————————————————

What’s interesting is how often it’s said that women are universally jealous of and threatened by other women who are more attractive than they are. It’s a “common sense” conventional wisdom that comes up any time a female supermodel or movie star and a relatively average-looking woman are in the same proximity. Sitcoms and movies set this up every so often.
In reality, practically all women are pretty much surrounded by images of the few women who comply with the rarified beauty standards of the entertainment, fashion, and advertising industries and even seek those images out whenever we buy a celebrity tabloid, a copy of Vogue, or a movie ticket.
It’s a trite joke that’s also kind of a neat little example of how the male perspective is culturally centralized and then projected onto the rest of us.
Probably a tangent on my part, but I just think it’s interesting.

As far as shots of male junk and pects and whatnot, I tend to say that 2-dimensional images of male body parts don’t do it for me personally, but I think that’s largely due to the context in which those images are usually presented. In Weiner’s case, those images are tied in with very public humiliation. So even though empirically I think he looks pretty good, the images give me a cringey feeling.

Women are at least as sexually “visual” as men are, but for men and women both, the context of the image and in what circumstance you’re viewing it makes all the difference.

Comment #107: snobographer  on  06/07  at  04:32 PM

I just don’t think that Amanda’s PARTICULAR feminist critique—that all prostitution transactions are a result of sexist men trying to “own” women and that the transaction by its very nature is slave-like—can survive any scrutiny. Rather, I think she just feels revulsion towards men who go to prostitutes just like some other people that she is disagreeing with in this post feel revulsion towards men who disseminate photos of their penises, and is dressing up that revulsion as an argument that doesn’t have any support just like some of the people who are condemning Weiner are dressing up their own revulsion as arguments.
Comment #66: Dilan Esper on 06/07 at 02:41 PM

How is it not slave-like?

Men who go to prostitutes generally could go another route, dating and hoping for sex.  They choose prostitutes for a reason—they make up for being congenial enough to fuck by paying money.  They don’t care that the woman really doesn’t “want” to fuck them.

The usual argument here is “it’s perfectly legit to want sex on demand.”  But how would you feel about someone who pays people to be her friend rather than making friends herself?  I’m not talking about wanting to make it illegal, but what kind of person does that?  Few people are so horrible they can’t find a friend somehow.  If all you want to do is play checkers, it’s easy enough to find that, too.

If a person decides to substitute being congenial enough to be a friend, or checkers-player, with money, that’s not just social awkwardness or wanting to “get to the fun part with no strings attached.”  It feels sort of sociopathic.

So we are left to figure that men who frequent prostitutes mostly prefer to fuck women who don’t want to fuck them.  They actually pay a premium for it!  They pay money so the woman will say, “that sounds like fun” or “I’m up for that!” when she’s really thinking “brown.  I’ll paint this room brown” or “now I can afford those shoes (for my kid).”

Comment #108: oldfeminist  on  06/07  at  04:37 PM

I think that since prostitution is a base and illegal enterprise, entered in to by people abandoned by their families and society, you’d generally find that of course the majority of the were abused.

You find the same correlation with any other abandoned segment of population:  transgendered, homeless, etc.

Which makes it a poor choice for reasons against prostitution.

Comment #109: Crissa  on  06/07  at  04:38 PM

I made a therapist laugh out loud once when I said that the reason I didn’t have sex in high school had more to do with the lack of birth control available to teenagers then, and the marrying off of two pregnant friends at 14 and 16.

“I wasn’t afraid of sex,” I said, “I was afraid of housework.”

The expectations even higher 40 years ago, that women would do all of that fucking work and only that. And later I also held the conviction that my mother’s forced role as a virtual indentured servant helped lead to her suicide.

So my gay brother keeps a neater house than I do.

In my little apartment complex, it’s also joke that the older bachelor guys keep neater homes than the older single women. But then again, they were never tortured with the idea that that should be their only career. Or the idea that when they came home from work, they were required to put in another 8 hours of laundry and scrubbing.

Comment #110: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  04:39 PM

I may be unfairly generalizing here

You are unfairly generalizing here. Please stop.

Comment #111: SallyStrange  on  06/07  at  04:43 PM

Fair enough. But ask yourself this: Did none of your lovers express specific sexual excitement about some part of your body?

Again, I may be unfairly generalizing here, but my impression is that, absent body buildingsculpting, a good chunk of women are just not that excited about the male body per se.

You are the common denominator here, and this belief says more about your partners’ feelings about you than it could ever say about women.

What it says about you is not something you should be proud of.  Maybe you should stop talking about it now.

Comment #112: themmases  on  06/07  at  04:47 PM

@judybrowni

I’m a wingnut, if you ascribe arguments to me I didn’t make.  The point was about male rudeness. I didn’t say the risk of rape was a wash because men are more promiscuous (blast me if I ever make such an argument). Please reread the post.

Comment #113: ArielNYC  on  06/07  at  04:48 PM

Again, I may be unfairly generalizing here, but my impression is that, absent body buildingsculpting, a good chunk of women are just not that excited about the male body per se.

And no number of actual women telling me otherwise is gonna change my mind!

Comment #114: Well, what?  on  06/07  at  04:53 PM

Ah, but neither being homeless or transgendered is a profession, or argued as a “rental of services.”

Nor have I seen studies that hold up the idea that people become prostitutes because they were abandoned by family or society.

However, study after study has reflected the high statistics of those who were abused as children who then become prostitutes.

Prostitution is legal in the Netherlands: whether or not, it’s still “base” there, my guess would be that a majority of the sex workers have been abused as children. (Although 70% are foreign workers from economically devastated countries, so that may be a connection.)

Comment #115: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  04:54 PM

It’s a wingnut-style argument tactic to claim that I wrote X when I wrote Y.

Another glaring example of which: I never wrote anything anywhere on this thread referring to, referencing or hinting at male “promiscuity.”

Wow, that came out of the blue! What in the world is going on in your head?

Comment #116: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  05:01 PM

@judybrowni

You’re correct, you didn’t write about male promiscuity. I wrote about male promiscuity. As a counterbalance to male rudeness. Again, this was a wholly separate discussion from the threat of rape. For real, reread my post.

Comment #117: ArielNYC  on  06/07  at  05:08 PM

Least we know the *real* reason he didn’t call the police lol.  Wasn’t because he was being unfairly harassed by wingnutz :D

Comment #118: Anonymouse  on  06/07  at  05:10 PM

@SallyStrange:  I’m not sure how to respond.  The first block quote isn’t mine, and I think it’s ridiculous for all sorts of reasons.  But you actually sort of agreed with his viewpoint. 

As for the second point, no one, not even Patriarchal Society man, has suggested that there’s something wrong with preferring hottt pics of erect penises over made beds.  Even if it were true you were somehow waaaaaaaay outside the mainstream, you shouldn’t feel freakish about your own quirks or individuality.  If you happen to get off on Weiner’s boxer-briefed disco stick, do it to it!

//Digression:  My problem with arguments that assert how “society” views/approves/disapproves/believes any particular action is with the underlying assumption that we can perfectly poll and aggregate everyone’s individual views on an issue.  We can’t do that, and it ignores the fact that our society is diverse and pluralistic.  There’s no such thing as a consensus “societal” view.  When someone uses the term in an argument, that person is usually asserting a personal opinion as a collective fact to bolster a point for which they have no statistical evidence.  Or is in Sociology 102.  //

Comment #119: CW21  on  06/07  at  05:14 PM

I do retract the gross generalizations I made about how women perceive the male body. It’s just my personal experience, and ,sigh, I think I did mansplain a bit.

Comment #120: ArielNYC  on  06/07  at  05:15 PM

I’m uncomfortable with comments that blame him for being dumb enough to not know his pictures would be leaked because they sound just like the comments we got last time there was a celebrity sex tape, blaming the woman for trusting the ex-boyfriend not to sell the private tape to a porn company. And back then, most commenters actually said this was victim blaming and that the woman was a victim, as she didn’t give consent to have her private images distributed that way.
Weiner didn’t give his consent to have his pictures distributed by Breitbart either, so I don’t see how “but he should have expected it” isn’t victim blaming, regardless of how wrong sexting while married is or isn’t.

Comment #121: colorlessblue  on  06/07  at  05:18 PM

As for the idea of men feeling threatened by men who are better looking than they are, it never occurred to me until I spent some time in the company of a couple extremely good looking heterosexual men.

Had a handsome boyfriend from a family of brothers so attractive one went to college on the money he’d earned as a child actor and model, and the other married an heiress.

6’2”, played football in college, handsome face, good body, but in a conventionally heterosexual way. I was amused when we went to check out a group vacation house on Fire Island of mostly singles and it was obvious the other guys there were so threatened by how handsome he was, we didn’t make the cut. But I doubt that Mickey was aware of the reason.

Years later one of my writing students took me, his older lady teacher, to lunch a couple times. Although fronting a rock and roll band, he made his living as a Superman impersonator or stripper for batchelorette parties.

Sean habitually wore his shirt unbuttoned to just above the navel (Los Angeles, here) and again I was amused to see shorter, less attractive and buff or older guys shrink into themselves when he walked by.

Amused not at their expense, of course, but because the conventional wisdom is that only women are threatened by attractive members of their own gender.

Comment #122: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  05:23 PM

#122 - You’re naming the 800 lb gorilla in the room - specifically, that any and every single thing that men claim women do - from talking to much, driving badly, being insecure, etc ad nauseum - men are guilty of at least equally. But they’re only bad when women do them. It’s funny when men do.

Kinda like how they complain about women and PMS, when really, its just the point in time where we act like they do all the time.  LOL

Comment #123: Rare Vos  on  06/07  at  05:28 PM

@SallyStrange:  “I meant to add that the “SHOULD BE” part of that statement is a falsehood. Otherwise, as many academic studies have repeatedly shown, women do perform more than their fair share of housework. Looking at you, CW21. Haven’t read any of those studies, have you?”

I didn’t argue that women should be (or are) responsible for a lion’s share of the housework.  I don’t even know what qualifies as the “lion’s share.”  And no, I have absolutely no idea which particular study you were referring to, or how it was set up, or how they controlled for various variables between households.

Personally, I like a neater house than my girlfriend.  I tend to do slightly more housework than my girlfriend as a result, but we’ve figured out an arrangement that works great for us.  Just as I expect (but don’t know with statistical certitude) many two-career households do once they move in together.

Comment #124: CW21  on  06/07  at  05:29 PM

“Speaking just for myself, I never ever make my own bed, so why would I find it sexy to see a picture of a made bed?”

Wow.  That’s some awesome privilege, right there.

Those of us who are expected to do these pointlessly repetitive mundane chores every fucking day of the world sometimes find it saps all our energy, leaving little time/energy for other more fun activities.

Comment #125: maribelle  on  06/07  at  05:38 PM

Ariel you claimed I said that wrote something to the effect that “the risk of rape was a wash because men are more promiscuous.”

Wha????!!!!!!!!! That you could read that, out of something I wrote so completely Not That, says more about you than me.

You claim wrote I X, when I wrote ABCDEFG (anything but X).  Black also isn’t white, and night isn’t day.

You’re so not working in reality, and I’m not gonna dally futher with you in Bizzarro World.

Buh bye.

Comment #126: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  05:43 PM

Oh maribelle, just because we’ve chosen to be messy slobs, doesn’t invalidate your life.

Why should it? And why should you take personal offense at some stranger’s unmade bed?

Comment #127: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  05:45 PM

The first block quote isn’t mine, and I think it’s ridiculous for all sorts of reasons.  But you actually sort of agreed with his viewpoint.

I know it wasn’t yours, and if you were confused then I apologize for not adding names. I did agree with the poster’s explanation. Why do you think it’s ridiculous?

no one, not even Patriarchal Society man, has suggested that there’s something wrong with preferring hottt pics of erect penises over made beds.

No, Patriarchal Society Man hasn’t even gotten as far as suggesting that there’s something wrong with a woman who prefers penis pics to made beds. Patriarchal Society Man proposes, like the well-meaning Ariel (who is now coming around to his error), that such women do not exist. That’s worse.

Even if it were true you were somehow waaaaaaaay outside the mainstream, you shouldn’t feel freakish about your own quirks or individuality.

Ah nice, a little victim-blaming thrown in the mix for good measure. Look, our culture’s narrative about women and female sexuality says that women like me don’t exist. It is pretty frustrating to have to constantly speak up to remind people that, “HEY WE ARE HERE!” But of course it’s really just MY problem for not being completely unfazed by all the obstacles that are thrown in my path to happiness, just because I don’t fit into the female-shaped box society has provided for me.

My problem with arguments that assert how “society” views/approves/disapproves/believes any particular action is with the underlying assumption that we can perfectly poll and aggregate everyone’s individual views on an issue.

How ridiculous. It’s impossible to poll everybody about everything. Mandating this sort of research before making such elementary observations such as, “This is a sexist society which devalues women’s work” does nothing but stifle the ability to have a discussion. When I say, “This is a sexist society,” I’m not claiming that every last individual who participates in this society is sexist. I’m saying that sexism is the norm, the default, the assumed position. At least, that’s been my experience of it. If you have a different experience then go right ahead and share it. But don’t tell me that I can’t make those basic types of observations because I can’t speak for every last individual with whom I share this society: I’m not trying to do that!

We can’t do that, and it ignores the fact that our society is diverse and pluralistic.

No, stating that “this society is sexist/egalitarian/communist/capitalist/racist/whatever,” merely characterizes what views or institutional systems dominate in that society. There may be a lot of religious diversity in the USA, but what religious buildings do you find most commonly in most communities? Christian churches. In fact, until you start to realize that, hey, my society is dominated by Christian views, mores, and assumptions, you can’t really begin to change society into something that’s more pluralistic. Once society DOES change, then you can start describing it as “religiously diverse” or whatever the reality of the situation calls for.

There’s no such thing as a consensus “societal” view.

I’m not sure what you mean by “consensus ‘societal’ view,” nor why scare quotes are necessary. Does asserting that a particular set of values dominate a society mean that there is a complete consensus within that society about those values? Not in my dictionary. If you see it that way then I’d suggest you’re reading rather too much into such statements.

When someone uses the term in an argument, that person is usually asserting a personal opinion as a collective fact to bolster a point for which they have no statistical evidence.  Or is in Sociology 102.

If you want your interlocutor to provide evidence for their assertion, then bloody well just ask for it. There is, in fact, scads of statistical evidence backing up the assertion that this is a sexist society. If the evidence does not exist, then that should come out in the wash pretty quickly. That is the way to honestly debate the point, not to make assertions about vaguely defined ideas like “consensus societal view,” or simply tell the other person that they are not allowed to make certain kinds of claims. The dishonest way to debate would be to assume, without asking for statistical evidence, that your interlocutor has no such evidence, and cast irrelevant aspersions on what classes you imagine they are taking.

Comment #128: SallyStrange  on  06/07  at  05:46 PM

Actually on the bad driving and talking too much, men may be projecting.

There’s a reason women paid (at least at some point) less for car insurance: they got in fewer accidents, were less actuarial risk.

And at least one sociobiologist or linguist has written a book that analyzed men’s and women’s conversations: men tended to talk more (and dominate the conversation) in public, women got more of a chance to get their say in private, if memory serves.

Comment #129: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  05:52 PM

“Speaking just for myself, I never ever make my own bed, so why would I find it sexy to see a picture of a made bed?”

Wow.  That’s some awesome privilege, right there.

Those of us who are expected to do these pointlessly repetitive mundane chores every fucking day of the world sometimes find it saps all our energy, leaving little time/energy for other more fun activities.

Uhm… if you are thinking that someone ELSE makes my bed for me then you are sadly mistaken. If you’re complaining because I choose to leave my bed unmade, while you choose to sap your energy making your bed on a daily basis, then you’re just silly.

Comment #130: SallyStrange  on  06/07  at  05:54 PM

Hi, judybrowni—the only offense I was taking was at the complete lack of empathy for another person’s situation/obligations.  “I don’t do X so why should I find X interesting/sexy/important?” seems like a kind of sad world view (and ps my frustration wasn’t directed at you.)

Several here poo-pooing the idea that a completely stressed out “homemaker” might be turned on by the idea of household help makes me wonder what household help they have.  Hence the privilege comment.  The “too-exhausted for sex/not getting help from partner” is a depressingly common complaint among many of the women I know. 

PS—I was so sorry to read about your mother.  I admit (and own) it had a mildly triggering effect on me, for several reasons.

Comment #131: maribelle  on  06/07  at  06:02 PM

I’m uncomfortable with comments that blame him for being dumb enough to not know his pictures would be leaked because they sound just like the comments we got last time there was a celebrity sex tape, blaming the woman for trusting the ex-boyfriend not to sell the private tape to a porn company. And back then, most commenters actually said this was victim blaming and that the woman was a victim, as she didn’t give consent to have her private images distributed that way. Weiner didn’t give his consent to have his pictures distributed by Breitbart either, so I don’t see how “but he should have expected it” isn’t victim blaming, regardless of how wrong sexting while married is or isn’t.

I think you should be careful in assuming that because, in the case of rape, it happens that most of the “precautions” that women are urged to take are either not going to be effective (wearing “unsexy” clothes) or are obvious and usually taken by women anyway (going out in groups), that this means that never in the history of the universe has any person who has ever had anything bad befall on him or her that wasn’t a rape ever borne at least a partial responsibility for what happened.

The fact of the matter is that the same digital convenience that makes it easy to distribute lewd pictures to people you want to receive them also makes it easy for those pictures to receive further distribution. And people IN PUBLIC LIFE who don’t take account of this fact are taking a real risk.

Yeah, that means that maybe they might decide in their better judgment not to take the risk and won’t get to enjoy sexting with people. That’s not remotely like telling a woman that she can’t wear an attractive outfit because it would mean that she is supposedly “asking for it”.

Comment #132: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  06:02 PM

It’s a wingnut-style argument tactic to claim that I wrote X when I wrote Y.

Comment #116: judybrowni

Are you saying Z should get off scott free with no repercussions?!?! The nerve!

Comment #133: snobographer  on  06/07  at  06:06 PM

Not only that, but using the stereotype to buttress a joke, without being critical of the stereotype, merely reinforces the stereotype that a.) women like sex less than men (which is an obvious falsehood) and b.) women are, and SHOULD BE, responsible for the lion’s share of housework.

I can see your point, that people will think that if women really enjoyed sex they wouldn’t let a hamper full of clothes or a sinkful of dishes stand in their way. But are you arguing that there is no patriarchical expectation for women to do the bulk of the housework?

From my point of view the joke just wryly acknowledges society’s expectation that women must control their impulses and defer gratification, while guys can just do whatever, whenever.

Comment #134: Hector B.  on  06/07  at  06:07 PM

the only offense I was taking was at the complete lack of empathy for another person’s situation/obligations.  “I don’t do X so why should I find X interesting/sexy/important?” seems like a kind of sad world view

What? What part of “SPEAKING ONLY FOR MYSELF” do you not understand? I wasn’t TRYING to have empathy for anyone, I was explaining only how I felt about it and nothing more. If you are turned on by the idea of your man making the bed for you then that’s fine. More power to you, and yes, I get it completely.

I’m just objecting to the notion that I personally should also be turned on by such a thing because I’m a woman. I’m also objecting (and this is the more important part of my objection) because the entire joke rests on the assumption of an unequal division of paid vs. unpaid labor between the genders, and does nothing to satirize or undermine that assumption.

Comment #135: SallyStrange  on  06/07  at  06:08 PM

SallyStrange:  I see what happened there.

Your sentence structure here:

“I never ever make my *own* bed”

read like someone else makes your bed.  You didn’t say “I never ever make my bed” which I would not have commented on at all.

Assumption corrected.

Comment #136: maribelle  on  06/07  at  06:09 PM

oldfeminist:

Why people pay for sex (and by the way, sex is paid for in numerous ways in our society, from explicit heterosexual prostitution transactions to rich men who pay for trophy wives to gay men who pay for sex to wealthy women who pay for gigolos) is simply a lot more complicated and varied and is a heavily researched subject. Your comment is essentially a bunch of assumptions as to why people pay for sex, and that, of course, is my point—people who are offended by the explicit exchange of money for sex make a bunch of extremely negative assumptions as to why the customers (who are ALWAYS assumed to be heterosexual men) pay for it, based on their own preconceived notions of sexuality and without data. It’s basically the same thing the religious right does when they come up with reasons why women have abortions.

So yeah, I agree, if you assume that the only person who could possibly pay for sex is a hetero male visiting a prostitute, and the only reason he could possibly want sex is because he is turned on by having sex with women who don’t want it, then your conclusions about the transaction would follow. But since your premise is transparently false (both in terms of who the customers are and what their motives are), your conclusion does not follow.

Comment #137: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  06:09 PM

But are you arguing that there is no patriarchical expectation for women to do the bulk of the housework?

No. See comment #103. http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments//in_defense_of_nekkid_pictures_even_of_dudes#260356

Comment #138: SallyStrange  on  06/07  at  06:11 PM

I basically agree with Amanda though. Also I think the fact that some people find prostitution really creepy comes from a different place than anti-sex attitude or anything like that. I think it just might be that a majority of humans see sex as something fundamentally intimate (even if the intimacy is just with a one night stand or whatever)- even more so than food, exercise and other bodily functions- and formalizing it through an economic system bothers them, not to mention a system with inherent power dynamics (employer/employee on top of the usual inferior social status of those seen as objects of desire rather than sexual actors). I wouldn’t go out of my way to disbelieve a sex worker who told me she had no such feelings on the matter, though. It’s possible different people just have different emotional reactions to the idea of selling their bodies, just as they have different reactions to the idea of being perceived sexually, taking a naked picture of themselves, or doing certain sex acts.

By the way, even though I disagree with the conclusion, I basically think this gets the REAL reasoning right.

Comment #139: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  06:11 PM

the entire joke rests on the assumption of an unequal division of paid vs. unpaid labor between the genders, and does nothing to satirize or undermine that assumption.

The joke is lame, but I wonder how to construct a better one.

Comment #140: Hector B.  on  06/07  at  06:14 PM

maribelle—I’ve seen the housework issue from both sides. and I completely understand the exaustion of women with the two or three jobs of children, husband, house and even outside job.

I respect the women on both sides, and suspect that the poster pissed about “housewife porn” (husband vacuuming postcard) is pissed just because it’s assumed that holds true for all women, and it’s not her.

Of the two men I lived with, the one more dominating (and I left when it became apparent he might become abusive) was the one who didn’t want to help with the housework.

Comment #141: judybrowni  on  06/07  at  06:17 PM

Maribelle -

“I never ever make my *own* bed”

read like someone else makes your bed.  You didn’t say “I never ever make my bed” which I would not have commented on at all.

Or, you could have read it as meaning, “I don’t make my *own* bed, but I do sometimes make other people’s beds.”

Until you commented, it didn’t occur to me that someone might read that as meaning that a maid or a housekeeper makes my bed for me. Since that just doesn’t happen in my world, unless I’m staying in a hotel (special treat!).

Class does affect the way we see the world! Seems to me like you are coming from a more affluent background than me, then. *Seems*, I said—I could be wrong, and there’s nothing wrong with that anyway. But since you brought up privilege, I thought it might be worth considering.

Comment #142: SallyStrange  on  06/07  at  06:18 PM

*sigh*
1.  I think the idea of folded laundry, made beds being “sexy” is a joke based, as most jokes are, in an uncomfortable reality. 
2.  No one is actually TURNED ON by the damn laundry. 
3.  No one thinks YOU should be turned on by the damn laundry either.
4.  It satirizes the assumption by casting a light on it.  It’s maybe not much, but there it is.

Which brings to the real/main point:
5.  Empathizing with other people in very different circumstances is the cornerstone of feminism, indeed of any progressive change at all.  Hence your comment was frustrating to me, especially on my first reading of it.

Comment #143: maribelle  on  06/07  at  06:19 PM

“Until you commented, it didn’t occur to me that someone might read that as meaning that a maid or a housekeeper makes my bed for me.”

Fun to learn something new every day, isn’t it?  Like when words in a sentence are extraneous or redundant, they can mislead.

Comment #144: maribelle  on  06/07  at  06:25 PM

Judybrowni—
“I respect the women on both sides,”

I appreciate that about your posts.

“... and suspect that the poster pissed about “housewife porn” (husband vacuuming postcard) is pissed just because it’s assumed that holds true for all women, and it’s not her.”

I suspect you are correct.

Here’s where I get lost:  why should it piss someone off that
1.  Someone dares to suggest that it would be damned sexy for men to help with some of the housework
2.  Even if she doesn’t have that issue/wish/problem/desire.
All while keeping in mind that:
3.  NO ONE is really turned on by housework [kink aside] and it’s all a JOKE (funny b/c it hits a nerve)

Comment #145: maribelle  on  06/07  at  06:30 PM

Oh, crap, now the ads above are all “find sexy men in [mytown]”. 

And not even one of those badboyz is holding a mop!

Comment #146: maribelle  on  06/07  at  06:32 PM

Fun to learn something new every day, isn’t it?  Like when words in a sentence are extraneous or redundant, they can mislead.

The blame for the misunderstanding rests partially with me and my biases, and partially with you and your biases. You were the one to bring up privilege, and now you’re kind of being an asshole, so I guess I’ll just come out and say it: Interpreting my statement as indicating that my housekeeper makes my bed for me reveals YOUR class privilege. You could have interpreted it as meaning that I am a hotel housekeeper and I spend my days making other people’s beds, but you didn’t—you immediately jumped to thinking that I’m a rich, unempathetic bitch. It makes your lectures about empathy look rather ironic.

Comment #147: SallyStrange  on  06/07  at  06:38 PM

SallyStrange—I already noted and corrected my assumption.  Your poor, inaccurate wording on the post?  Not so much. 

Also—main point was you saying that what didn’t effect/influence you wasn’t important.  Still not cool.  (No, putting “Speaking for myself” in front of it doesn’t negate it.)

And now for some reason you pull out “Asshole?” and “Bitch?”  Your words, your attitude.

Not mine.

Done talking to you, buh-bye.

Comment #148: maribelle  on  06/07  at  06:59 PM

@SallyStrange:  Just a couple of thoughts:

—-“Patriarchal Society Man proposes, like the well-meaning Ariel (who is now coming around to his error), that such women do not exist. That’s worse.”

I would absolutely love for you to point out where either (or for that matter anyone) said that women who like pictures of erect penises over those of made beds do not exist.

—-“Mandating this sort of research before making such elementary observations such as, “This is a sexist society which devalues women’s work” does nothing but stifle the ability to have a discussion.”

I couldn’t disagree more.  I believe that recasting one’s personal opinions as elementary societal truth stifles debate far more than expecting someone to be conversant with the evidence or facts that support such a presumption.  That’s the exact type faulty inductive reasoning that leads to other ridiculous statements.  Just because I’ve been in two accidents in my life and both were caused by Asian women doesn’t mean all Asian women are terrible drivers. 

——-“Ah nice, a little victim-blaming thrown in the mix for good measure. Look, our culture’s narrative about women and female sexuality says that women like me don’t exist.”

First, I don’t agree with your underlying premise that you are some sort of sexual deviant because you prefer actual-dick porn to clean-house porn.  Second, I want to congratulate you.  I’ve seen some pretty inventive applications of the victim-blaming card, but playing it in response to me encouraging you to embrace your individual sexuality and to ignore what “culture” expects of you is inspired.

Comment #149: CW21  on  06/07  at  07:02 PM

I believe that recasting one’s personal opinions as elementary societal truth stifles debate far more than expecting someone to be conversant with the evidence or facts that support such a presumption.  That’s the exact type faulty inductive reasoning that leads to other ridiculous statements.

Sorry, CW21, a small quibble here.  The generalizations being discussed are truisms; common-sense sayings that are either obviously, or empirically false or misleading.  Examples include approbations against wearing revealing outfits while walking after dark, lest the wearer become a rape victim.  The empirical evidence suggests that it doesn’t matter one bit what a woman wears while walking after dark, because rapists rape women regardless of what they happen to be wearing.  Why?  Because they are rapists.  Not because of her clothes.

Another extremely good example is the idea of “maternal instinct.”  Who can deny that media has told us for generations that some women are, due to superior biological traits, much more apt to perform better as mothers than other women?  The empirical evidence, however, has demonstrated that homo sapiens do not perform complex social operations dictated by biological imperatives, but rather, that parenting and other forms of social exchange are learned behaviors resulting in social outputs having nothing to do with genetic inputs.  But still, this idea of maternal instict, that all women are just waiting for the right time to have babies, persists. 

This is what is meant by these reductive, general statements.  They’re not describing a person or even people, but rather, are a commentary on what “the general wisdom” says on a given topic.

 

 

Comment #150: Rachel Tyrel  on  06/07  at  07:25 PM

I’m not gonna get into every thing I’ve heard here about prostitution, but I would like to make some points.  Paying for sex is only analogous to ordering a pizza or hiring a maid if you buy into the rape culture trope that sex s a service that women provide for men.  It really supports rape culture by implying that women have little or no interest in sex for their pleasure, so men can only access this service by tricks, cajoling, money or other trades, or rape.

To any actually progressive man, hiring a prostitute should be more analogous to paying someone to play frisbee or checkers with you.  Essentially it just wouldn’t make sense except in a few cases (coaching, a club where all members pay to join).  FWIW, I completely support decriminalization of prostitution because outlawing a symptom won’t change the root cause.

If you think you’re progressive and you continue to view sex as something that women perform for men, rather than a mutually enjoyable activity, then you should strongly reconsider whether you are actually progressive and how much you buy into rape culture.

Comment #151: bananacat  on  06/07  at  07:45 PM

#151:

1. Your comment suffers from the same problem as oldfeminists’, i.e., it ignores that men pay other men for sex and women pay men for sex and men pay women for sex in contexts other than explicit prostitution. If same-sex male prostitution and gigolo prostitution exist (and they do), that suggests that in fact sex is sometimes a service that some people provide for other people. (Indeed, subsidiary to this, some straight males patronize male prostitutes, and some non-prostitution forms of sex work (such as strip clubs) involve payment for sexual contact short of intercourse).

2. It’s a weird analogy to talk about paying people to play a game with you, but what, exactly, is wrong with that? For instance, there are plenty of “fantasy camps” where people essentially do just that, paying professional athletes to play with them. Is the fact that a Hall of Fame baseball player would never play baseball with you except for the fact that you paid him to of any relevance whatsoever?

3. I don’t think of sex as something women do for men. I think of sex as a consensual activity that people engage in for all sorts of reasons, some compelling, some not. And one reason among many people consent to sex is money, sometimes informally and sometimes formally and explicitly.

Comment #152: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  08:32 PM

CW21,

Your objections are disingenuous. Why? Because all you have to do is say, “Gosh, do you have any evidence to back that up?” And then you can get into determining whether the speaker is just spouting personal opinion and dressing it up as universally recognized truth, or actually speaking some truth.

I don’t quite understand why you don’t consider just asking for the evidence and attempting to establish whether the claim he or she made is evidence-based as an option. You’re preemtively dismissing a whole class of claims on the basis that you don’t like those kinds of claims, not because there’s no evidence behind them. Seems kinda silly.

Comment #153: SallyStrange  on  06/07  at  09:05 PM

  He also said he had never had sex outside of his marriage.

OK, that one raises a couple of issues. First of all, since Mr Weiner is now an admitted liar, he doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt about the last sentence; count on people looking to investigate that part, to expose him — pun intended — as lying yet again.

The ability to lie to save embarrassment: “Yes honey, I mailed back the DVD,” does not indicate the ability to lie in a more serious situation: “I had a nose bleed all over that axe, honey. The neighbor must just have gone on vacation.”

Comment #154: Hector B.  on  06/07  at  09:15 PM

There’s a reason women paid (at least at some point) less for car insurance: they got in fewer accidents, were less actuarial risk.

That’s true, the highest insurance risk group is that of young teen-aged/adult men, the drop-off age is 26 years for men when the risk goes way down, I don’t know what it is for women but it’s probably around the same figure.

judybrowni, I like the observation in the book Generation of Vipers that men and women take on the stereotypic behavior of the opposite sex when they get into an argument with their partners:  Men raise their voices and get emotional, while women start talking about facts and logic and speak in a relatively low voice.

 

Comment #155: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/07  at  09:38 PM

@CW21: Maybe if you actually *took* a basic sociology course instead of pointlessly bagging on it (very original bandwagon to jump on, by the way. The social sciences and humanities CERTAINLY don’t get routinely dismissed as “soft”, “making shit up” or “girly” just because actually studying humans continually reveals ways in which straight white guys are not actually better than everyone else), you’d know what “hegemony” means and not make an ass out of yourself acting like you’ve just discovered something?

Seriously. Why does every discussion of societal sexism feature somebody turning up all like “BUT WOMEN RAISED IN OUR SOCIETY FREQUENTLY SHARE ITS DOMINANT VIEWS ON STUFF TOOOOOOOOOOOOOO” like nobody ever noticed this and it totally singlehandedly debunks entire fields of research?

Comment #156: thecynicalromantic  on  06/07  at  09:59 PM

maribelle, it’s apparent that the only person confused by Sally’s wording was you.  I’d like to think you were so rude to her once the misunderstanding was cleared up because you were just embarrassed that you jumped to conclusions that were so unflattering (to you).  But your original comment would have been so pointless anyway it seems to me you were actually just playing a game of privilege gotcha that was every bit as mean-spirited as it came off.

Honestly, it’s not clear to me that you know what buzzwords like “privilege,” “owning,” and “trigger” mean besides that they get you hugs on other feminist blogs.  Just as a tip, not everything that fails to make you personally fart rainbows is a privilege if someone else chooses not to do it.  If you had lurked more before jumping down someone’s throat over a statement that was actually pretty unambiguous to anyone not spoiling for a fight, you’d know that few or no regulars are here to tearfully admit their privilege and then tear each other apart looking for more.

I can’t recommend highly enough that you lurk more before commenting again.  You might even learn something.  More importantly, you’d spare me the burn of your stupid in this unholy Chicago heat.

Comment #157: themmases  on  06/07  at  10:44 PM

I would absolutely love for you to point out where either (or for that matter anyone) said that women who like pictures of erect penises over those of made beds do not exist.

The original framing of the “joke” is evidence: it bills images of men cleaning and cooking as “porn for women, not “porn for harried housewives.” 

And the point is that I am NOT sexually deviant; I am made to seem that way by the constant promotion of the myth that men love sex, while women love commitment and only put up with sex to get the commitment.

Comment #158: SallyStrange  on  06/07  at  10:48 PM

What is it with this? I often joke that the ONLY USE of picture-mail or other such methods of sending pix to phones is to send people pictures of the owner’s penis; in my experience, I’m not far off. I knew one guy who would just send everyone in his phonelist the occasional dick pic just for lulz.

I think TV detective shows might be the only place I’ve seen people use the function for anything else.

Comment #159: Mark Temporis  on  06/07  at  11:02 PM

The original framing of the “joke” is evidence: it bills images of men cleaning and cooking as “porn for women, not “porn for harried housewives.”

This bugged me, too, because I am so tired of hearing that women just care more about this type of work—so much so that we have some alternative sexuality based on our love of a dust-free baseboard!

You don’t have to go far on any feminist blog to hear about how draining and demoralizing it can be for women to be responsible for all of the housework, and how much respect they lose for the men in their lives whose learned helplessness puts them in that situation.  If there’s one grain of truth in those jokes, I think it’s that—I can’t imagine respecting someone enough to feel attracted to him if I made the bed (or whatever) every single time and felt like I was practically parenting whenever I wasn’t expected to put out.  I’ve read discussions here and elsewhere that suggest the bar really is that low in some households: is this guy not being a child right now?

Comment #160: themmases  on  06/07  at  11:07 PM

I would argue instead that women are very much sexual beings who can find the male body quite arousing, and therefore a picture of a man in the context of a flirtation is not only normal but should be immediately understandable, just as the picture of a woman in a flirtation is.

My apologies for not having read the entire thread but it’s after work and there’s 160 comments. So far all I want to say is a big fucking THANK YOU for this. You will (and probably a lot of other straight women here) will understand when I say how fucking tired I am for having to explain and/or defend myself when I say I enjoy looking at men naked. To be fair, yes, all bodies have beauty about them but if you ask if I wanted to see a man naked versus a woman I’m going to say the man, especially if it’s a man I’m interested in. When men hear this (and some women) I get stares as if I just shit in front of them. And guys refuse to understand my perspective because they only want THEIR perspective, which is women are hawt and have “curves” so that inherently makes our bodies beautiful and mens bodies yucky and dick and balls are “functional” so they aren’t pretty to look at like boobs andblahblahblah. It’s fucking frustrating. So thanks for putting this out there.

Comment #161: UltraMagnus  on  06/08  at  12:48 AM

@#161, maybe it’s your lack of class and judgement that garners you the stares.

Comment #162: Iamrightandyouareallwrong  on  06/08  at  01:10 AM

I think the speedo is an illustrative example of what’s being spoken of. Men, at least in the US and not at a gay-friendly place like Miami Beach or a competitive meet, are expected to wear the equivalent of baggy shorts for a swimsuit. It’s as if the American Taliban determined that even a suggestion of the existence of the penis and scrotum is so offensive that it’s indecent for polite company. Fuck that shit. I’m a man, not a Ken doll.

As for nudity and pics, I’ve sent some. Asked ahead, got positive responses to the suggestion, and got further positive responses later. I wouldn’t send them to anyone who I wasn’t at least pretty sure wouldn’t be a vindictive ass about it, though it was a risk. There’s always some risk. But I still think it was worth it. Not just because I personally benefited, but because I think men should be allowed to be sexy. Any woman who doesn’t think so isn’t worth my time.

I’m a slut and I’m proud.

 

Comment #163: 3letterjon  on  06/08  at  01:39 AM

UltraMagnus, I was an editor of Playgirl magazine in the mid ‘80s, which sold millions of copies to an audience of at least 70% women (I had access to the sales figures.)

http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments//in_defense_of_nekkid_pictures_even_of_dudes#260291

During my stint, the magazine was successful enough selling photos of naked men to women that the publisher managed to steal somewhere between 3 and 6 million dollars in one year alone (it was a subscription drive, so they weren’t able to track all the money) before the corporation caught up with him.

In fact, Playgirl has survived as a print magazine for 37 years, and is now also a web site.

Apparently, you’re not the only woman who admires the naked male form, no matter what the prigs or self-involved men say.

Comment #164: judybrowni  on  06/08  at  01:48 AM

I have to admit Weiner was stupid to do that and then lie about it—But he DOES have a nice bod—The face, well, not so much. O.k. so I’m being sexist wink

Comment #165: PhantomOne  on  06/08  at  02:13 AM

Men, at least in the US and not at a gay-friendly place like Miami Beach or a competitive meet, are expected to wear the equivalent of baggy shorts for a swimsuit.
...not really seeing the problem with that.

Comment #166: Devonian  on  06/08  at  06:31 AM

maybe it’s your lack of class and judgement that garners you the stares

Hilarious. Yeah, clearly your preference for looking at nekkid men rather than nekkid women reveals a serious judgment flaw. If you were a classy broad, you’d only enjoy looking at things that straight guys enjoy looking at.

Comment #167: SallyStrange  on  06/08  at  10:14 AM

Having carefully considered this overnight, I’d like to propose that Pandagon add naked picture swapping functionality to the site, as a perk for members.. This would add zest to reading it, encourage casual readers to become members (heh) and increase the number of page views.

Comment #168: Hector B.  on  06/08  at  11:00 AM

@thecynicalromantic:  I think I get a pretty good look at hegemony when I read the comment threads on this site.  But my point is that it is unproductive to simply assert that something is an elemental truth because you perceive it so rather than be able to cite to some evidence of that truth.  That’s how ideological echochambers are created. 

I live in DC, and I have friends on the extreme ends of the political spectrum here who simply aren’t able to talk to each other because they essentially speak a different language.  When my wingnut Republican friend talks about taxes, for example, it’s from a background that simply assumes the veracity of the laffer curve and that ANY increased taxes, by definition, will kill jobs/move companies overseas/throttle the economy.  In her mind, the only valid debate is one that first shares those assumptions.  Until my wingnut Republican friend (1) understands that not everyone took econ 102 in college, and (2) is able to cogently describe the laffer curve theory to those who didn’t, she’ll continue to flail when trying to discuss tax policy with some of my wingnut Democrat friends. 

And lest I want to stab my own eye out of boredom, I tend to keep these groups of friends separate.

I’m not bagging on sociology, and certainly not entire fields of research.  But, yes, I do feel that there should be either empirical evidence (preferably) or an explainable theory (at the least) underpinning someone’s views.  Just saying how one feels doesn’t advance the ball very far. 

Comment #169: CW21  on  06/08  at  11:28 AM

Until my wingnut Republican friend (1) understands that not everyone took econ 102 in college, and (2) is able to cogently describe the laffer curve theory to those who didn’t, she’ll continue to flail when trying to discuss tax policy with some of my wingnut Democrat friends. 

Sorry that this is off-topic, but no true believer in the Laffer curve has ever been able to plot it out for me. If there is such a curve, no one has been able to tell me where our current operating point falls on it. There is no data to support what George H.W. Bush so aptly called Voodoo Economics, only faith.

Comment #170: Hector B.  on  06/08  at  12:44 PM

I’m not bagging on sociology, and certainly not entire fields of research.

Except for that one time when you did exactly that.

But, yes, I do feel that there should be either empirical evidence (preferably) or an explainable theory (at the least) underpinning someone’s views.  Just saying how one feels doesn’t advance the ball very far.

As I previously pointed out, you have this blanket assumption that every single time a person makes a statement about “society” or “culture,” that they are just saying how they feel and have no empirical evidence nor an explainable theory to back it up. You don’t even bother ASKING whether there’s evidence or a theory behind what they’re saying, you just go straight to, “Oh, well, that’s just, like, your opinion, maaaaan.”

Comment #171: SallyStrange  on  06/08  at  12:54 PM

wondering @ 21:  I was reminded of a stupid music comedy movie from several years ago when these idiot band members who had taken over a radio station and held hostages were trying to set themselves up for an insanity defense, one of their demands was naked pictures of Bea Arthur.

Comment #172: helen w. h.  on  06/08  at  12:57 PM

@themmases:  Now who’s making assumptions?

“I can’t recommend highly enough that you lurk more before commenting again.” 

I’ve been a member of this community (and at other feminist blogs) for approx. 5-6 years.

“You might even learn something.”

Lolol.  Oh I get it, you’re a comedian.

Thanks too for the assumption that I don’t know what words actually mean.  There are 7 writing awards on my resume that show you’re wrong in addition to being an insufferable shithead.

The poster I was responding to has been crapping arrogantly on many other people in this thread, not just me.  And her attempts to out me as Emelda Marcos, running a horde of maids through my palace was positively hilarious, in light of my original post on the thread.

Comment #173: maribelle  on  06/08  at  02:21 PM

Oh Mirabelle, you didn’t stick the flounce. And it was such a lovely flounce, too. Troll points will be deducted, I’m afraid. But you do get extra troll points for “dishing it out but not being able to take it.”

Comment #174: SallyStrange  on  06/08  at  03:25 PM

Dilan, I am talking about heterosexual men who use sex workers.  Therefore it’s relevant what that kind of person thinks about prostitution.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes

Alex admitted sex with ­prostitutes made him feel empty, but he had no idea how to get to know women “through the usual routes”. When I asked him about his feelings ­towards the women he buys he said that on the one hand, he wants ­prostitutes to get to know and like him and, on the other, he is “not under ­delusions” that the encounters are anything like a real relationship.

“I want my ideal prostitute not to behave like one,” he said, “to role-play to be a pretend girlfriend, a casual date, not business-like or mechanical. To a third person it looks like we’re in love.”

I felt compassion for Alex. No one had shown him how to form a bond with another human being and he was searching for something that commercial sex was never going to provide.

But another of the interviewees left me feeling concerned. Darren was young, good-looking and bright; I asked him how often he thought the women he paid enjoyed the sex. “I don’t want them to get any pleasure,” he told me. “I am paying for it and it is her job to give me pleasure. If she enjoys it I would feel cheated.” I asked if he felt prostitutes were different to other women. “The fact that they’re prepared to do that job where others won’t, even when they’re skint, means there’s some capability inside them that permits them to do it and not be disgusted,” he said. He seemed full of a festering, potentially explosive misogyny….

Many men seemed to want a real relationship with a woman and were disappointed when this didn’t develop: “It’s just a sex act, no emotion. Be prepared to accept this or don’t go at all. It’s not a wife or girlfriend.” ­Others were clear that they paid for sex in order to be able to totally control the encounter, including Bob, who said, “Look, men pay for women because he can have whatever and whoever he wants. Lots of men go to prostitutes so they can do things to them that real women would not put up with.”

Although some of the men said they thought the women they bought ­enjoyed the sex, many others admitted that they thought the women would be feeling “disgusted”, “miserable”, “dirty” and “scared”. Ahmed said he thought the woman might feel “relief that I’m not going to kill her”.

http://www.eaves4women.co.uk/Documents/Recent_Reports/Men Who Buy Sex.pdf

“Fifty-five per cent of 103 London men who bought sex believed that a majority of people in prostitution were lured, tricked or trafficked.”  And yet they bought the “service” anyway, not caring that the person they were “buying” had been lured, tricked or trafficked.

“Many of the men felt that at various times during prostitution, women had no rights at all. Attitudes normalising rape were common among this group of men who buy sex in London. Over half of the interviewees believed that men would ‘need’ to rape if they did not have access to prostituted women”

Comment #175: oldfeminist  on  06/08  at  05:03 PM

“Lots of men go to prostitutes so they can do things to them that real women would not put up with.”

There ya go. Hard to pretend it’s all on the up-and-up, just two humans engaging in a transaction like humans, there, innit?

Comment #176: Well, what?  on  06/08  at  05:09 PM

maribelle on 06/07 at 05:59 PM

And now for some reason you pull out “Asshole?” and “Bitch?”  Your words, your attitude.

maribelle on 06/08 at 01:21 PM:

There are 7 writing awards on my resume that show you’re wrong in addition to being an insufferable shithead.

Which is it, now?

Comment #177: themmases  on  06/08  at  05:32 PM

Amen to what UltraMagnus said at #161 smile

Comment #178: Kaija  on  06/09  at  08:24 AM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.