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In No Way Will We Actually Change The Things That We Are Doing

FoodHealth Care

The Miami Herald talks about workplace efforts to fight obesity.  The efforts to do so are intensive, but tend to fail to consider one basic solution: restructuring work schedules and work life so that people can organically choose healthier lifestyles.

Even with more companies offering wellness programs, something is going wrong. The Families and Work Institute report shows a significant decline in the number of employees who say their overall health is excellent. In a teleconference this week, Cali Yost, author of the Work/Life Fit blog asked: ``How do we move wellness or rebrand it away from having an on-site gym?’‘

One boss thinks it takes bold thinking. When Alison Austin was closing in on 50, she decided to wage war on her personal weight issue by pushing her employees into healthy lifestyles.

Austin, CEO of Belafonte TACOLCY Center, a 40 year-old social service agency in Liberty City, says she started by holding a mandatory staff meeting and bringing in a nutritionist. She then banned doughnuts, soda and sugary items from the office, even replacing the coffee machine with herbal teas. ``We became each other’s conscience,’’ she says of her 21 staff members.

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A huge part of the reason people gain weight and get otherwise unhealthy at work is because there’s tremendous social pressure on them to do so.  I’ve worked at jobs where I had to answer for going to the bathroom, where the need for a professional wardrobe to do a desk job that doesn’t face the public ate in to the money I would have spent on, say, healthier food or running shoes that I could use for longer than ten minutes.  Making health something you care about because your boss hectors you about it may make you lose weight, may even get you healthier, but a lot like The Biggest Loser, tends to only work while you’re in that environment and have that particular set of impulses guiding you.

And then, of course, there’s the “you can do everything you need at work and never leave” model:

Fortunately, there are some bosses who do back flips to create a culture where obesity is discouraged. ``You can’t look at it as responsibility, it needs to be done because outcome is greater than not doing it,’’ says Dianna Sheppard, CEO Of Advantec, a national provider of human resources outsourcing.

Sheppard became inspired to make changes after seeing an abundance of fast food in her lunchroom. She cleared out the vending machines and stocked the lunchroom shelves with fruit and nuts. She brought in Weight Watchers and offered Zumba exercise classes in the office two nights a week, two low-cost programs. She says the candy jars are disappearing and smoothies are the new afternoon snack break.

Sheppard is convinced she’s doing her part to help the nation’s obesity epidemic: ``It perpetuates itself, not only to workers but to their children and spouses.’‘

I’m torn on this, because it is a great thing to have employers taking proactive steps to give their employees healthier choices.  But there’s something deeply sick with a system where these steps need to be taken in the first place.  The natural course of American work life, without what amounts to a systematic battle plan to undermine it, is towards a sick, sedentary workforce whose major form of exercise is figuring out who’s nearest the supply cabinet and then asking them to bring you more staples.  Part of it is the increasing shittiness of a convenience diet, but so much of it is the continual pressure to squeeze more productivity out of fewer people for the same pay.  You can put all the smoothie machines you want in at work, but when I’m fighting brain freeze all day because I’m stress…do you eat smoothies?  Slurp them?  Whatever it is, when I’m consuming them all day because the proximity of healthy options is so close that I never have to stop working, I’m not healthier.  I’m just consuming fewer calories. 

 

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Posted by Jesse Taylor on 12:46 PM • (96) Comments

Pretty much, yeah.  When my work schedule got all weird and started messing with my sleep and my time and energy to cook for myself, I put on about 15 pounds in a couple months.  Now I’m taking drugs to sleep.  I don’t think a smoothie would help with that.  But hey, my employer is offering a workshop on work-life balance.  It’s all day long, on a Tuesday.  Really?  How am I supposed to justify that to my boss?  I really think HR exists to mock us, sometimes.

Comment #1: libdevil  on  09/24  at  12:55 PM

That quote “We became each other’s conscience” is bothering the hell out of me.  It is not my job to pester my coworkers if they would like to eat a donut or a Whopper (or combine the two into a luther burger, for that matter).  What we eat is highly personal and emotionally charged and bringing food shame to the workplace sounds like a recipe (hah!) for a hostile work environment.

I am also wondering if all those employees really wanted everyone else to be their “conscience” or if they felt bullied by the shitty economy into going along.

Comment #2: Yawgmoth  on  09/24  at  01:04 PM

Government suggests maybe we should provide healthier meals in schools
Conservatives: TOTALITARIANISM! NANNY-STATE!

CEO with an anti-fat chip on her shoulder enforces workplace totalitarianism (“We became each other’s conscience.”)
Conservatives: <cricket chirps>

Comment #3: BlackBloc  on  09/24  at  01:09 PM

Ugh, my last boss once commented that I was breathing heavily after walking up two flights of fire stairs. She asked if I had asthma, or if I was just out of shape. When I said out of shape, and that I hadn’t been to the gym all summer, she said I should get back to the gym.

I…what?

I was in at 8:30am and out sometimes not until 7. Sure, I could go to the 7:30 yoga class downtown, but at that point I wanted dinner and a strong drink!

Comment #4: Red Stapler  on  09/24  at  01:11 PM

Employers becoming more paternalistic will not work, and yeah, is abusive. Not my employer’s business what I weigh or eat, quite frankly, which is why I don’t fill out those optional health assessment surveys the ins. company offers. Even though I will get a 100.00 towards a gym membership if I do. Because it’s none of their business, dammit; only my dr. needs to know anything about my health habits. Not to mention concern that filling it out will affect what my insurance decides is a preexisting condition down the road if I need care.

I don’t need scolding, or pats on the head, or to for insurance company “wellness” counselors to get all up in my business, for Chrissakes. I need more respect. Sure, get rid of junk food machines. But how about giving me flextime, work at home days, and transit passes so I am motivated to take the train/bus to get here, and have time to do healthy things? How about a daycare on the premises so I can spend less time in the car and get more sleep? Any of those would help me more than another goddamn “wellness” brochure reminding me to eat broccoli.

Comment #5: emjaybee  on  09/24  at  01:16 PM

I nearly passed out at my job a couple weeks ago.  We’ve been insane busy and we are understaffed because they won’t even let the full-timers have more than thirty-six hours.  I blamed myself for changing to vegetarian diet, but then again I haven’t kept meat in my fridge for over two years.  The actual problem is that I was so stressed I wasn’t getting enough calories.  I was so worried about pinching pennies that I was eating under a thousand calories a day just to lower my grocery bill. 

Also the coworkers as food conscience is so disturbing.  Eating healthy isn’t a moral issue.  Eating sustainably is, but I’m pretty sure they aren’t ragging on Bob because his lunch has a high carbon footprint.

Comment #6: semi_factual  on  09/24  at  01:19 PM

So, I realize my job is not the norm, but I can say that I’ve been working my @ss off just to keep from being laid off.  Here’s an example from last week:  I live in Oakland, and have been placed with a client in Silicon Valley - that’s an hour+ long commute each way (adds up to almost 3 hours a day sitting in the car).  I leave the house at 6:30 am, and usually work until 7 pm, getting me home around 8.  At least 2 of my meals are “out”, and - unless I am really disciplined, they are often fast food.

Last Wednesday, I had to be in Washington DC for a sales presentation, but due to company budget cuts, there’s no money for a hotel stay, so I flew a red-eye to DC after work in Silicon Valley on Tuesday, returning Wednesday night - landing at 11 pm, getting home at 12:30 am, and still getting up to drive down the Bay at 5 AM Thursday.  Lack of sleep, bad food choices, not time to exercise… I feel like .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).

So, I will cop to the fact that my compensation is fairly high which mitigates this a bit, but what price is my health worth?  Couple that with the fact that I am deathly afraid of losing or changing my job because of a chronic disease that would make me ineligible for private individual plans (hello, public option).

The upshot - to extend to others:  The still-uncertain economy has a lot of people doing the jobs of multiple people who have been laid off - putting in long hours, feeling anxiety, cutting back on quality food and trying to save.  No amount of smoothie machines make that better.

Comment #7: wayloopy  on  09/24  at  01:21 PM

You know, a massive predictor of putting on abdominal fat (as opposed to spread-out, not-hovering-right-over-your-heart-fat) seems to be sleep deprivation. I’m just saying.

Also, insofar as there do seem to be some foods that can trick the body’s sense of satiety into consuming more calories than one otherwise might, high-calorie beverages like smoothies seem to be pretty top of the body-doesn’t-recognize-they’re-food list.

I am just saying this because I am super-squicked at that boss’s paternalistic tone. It’s bad enough to expect your employees to massage your ego and pick up your dry cleaning, but asking them to become your weight loss support group veers way over into creepy. Weight is a medical detail and affected by things like reproductive troubles and psychiatric medication, things I don’t think are anyone’s boss’s business. I mean, “Well, I’d love to be part of your lose-ten-pounds society, but after my endometriosis diagnosis I started taking a really strong birth control pill, and I’m in eating disorder recovery, and on Abilify, so it’s just really darn tough to keep the pounds off hah hah” is not something I want someone to have to say over the water cooler to be left alone.

Comment #8: purpleshoes  on  09/24  at  01:28 PM

even replacing the coffee machine with herbal teas.

I’m sorry, that’s inhumane.  And what does it have to do with weight loss anyway?

What I’d really like to see are more offices with treadmill-desks and/or ball-chairs, but that would mean *gasp* spending money and making the office look weird, which we can’t have.

Comment #9: Maureen  on  09/24  at  01:36 PM

“We became each other’s conscience”

It’s not often that you see an American corporate CEO so blithely embracing Maoism in the press.

But how about giving me flextime, work at home days, and transit passes so I am motivated to take the train/bus to get here, and have time to do healthy things? How about a daycare on the premises so I can spend less time in the car and get more sleep?

Now, now ... that won’t please the MBAs who probably run the place one bit. It’s one thing for HR to put up Potemkin Villages, and quite another for the executives to build real ones. Ingrate serf!

Anyhow, having already had my say for the week about the Human Resources Culture and its phony-baloney passive-aggressive BS in the Mad Men thread, I’ll leave it at that. Especially when others here are making the case so eloquently.

Comment #10: Gracchus.  on  09/24  at  01:40 PM

Fat does not equal unhealthy.  Thin does not equal healthy.  Weight and health are not synonyms.  Fatness is not a sign of a moral failing, stupidity, laziness, sloppy habits, poor hygiene or Imminent Death. 

Can you be both fat and unhealthy?  Sure.  But the same thing applies to thinness.  The biggest lie perpetuated by the moral panic over the “Obesity Epidemic” is that it’s about concern over health.  Baloney.  Until we address the tangle of classism, sexism, and othering that leads to the current mess, it is impossible to honestly address the situation.

If the problem really is a matter of health, adipose tissue should be way down the list of concerns.

Comment #11: catnik  on  09/24  at  01:41 PM

For crap sakes, Jesse, stop with the victim whining. 

1) Co-workers as morality police - that works both ways.  WHy not be able to offer counter pressure to a worker who always brings in the fattening baked stuff and then looks puppy-dog-eyed hurt when you say “no thanks?” Or the clique that always chooses a fried fast food place for lunches - and then ostracizes you if you don’t go along or try to steer them someplace healthier?

2) I feel for wayloopy but there are far too many people who’ve opted for the distant commute so they could buy the cheap bigger house and yard in the trainless, busless, sidewalkless burb, then whine how they don’t have time get to the gym or see their kids but spend three hours a day in the car. 

3) There are also the folks who still don’t see a reason to be fit, no matter how much time they have - my neighbor is a case in point - dude’s been laid off for months, but won’t even go to a park with his young kids because he’d have to walk from the parking lot once he got there - huh?

4)And hey, if your employer is footing the bill, they get to decide on the wellness plan (go public option) but couldn’t you try to co-opt that into an avenue for your suggestions?  It worked at my company.  When employees explained why they drove instead of trained, employer got a van to pick up at the train station(not a walkable distance or route) - which means walk on one end and still be able to get to work at the other.

Comment #12: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  01:43 PM

even replacing the coffee machine with herbal teas.

I’m sorry, that’s inhumane.  And what does it have to do with weight loss anyway?

What I’d really like to see are more offices with treadmill-desks and/or ball-chairs, but that would mean *gasp* spending money and making the office look weird, which we can’t have.
Comment #9: Maureen on 09/24 at 12:36 PM

Soooo yes - and even connecting them to powering the computer?

Comment #13: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  01:44 PM

It’s not often that you see an American corporate CEO so blithely embracing Maoism in the press.

That was my EXACT reaction. The last time I heard someone say this was back in college, part of the Maoist crowd.

Maoism: the only secular philosophy I know that borrowed the idea of confessors from the Catholic church.

Comment #14: BlackBloc  on  09/24  at  01:47 PM

When I was in corporate life I found the most difficult part of staying fit was lunch with coworkers. On the one hand, it’s quite important to network, be perceived as one of the team, etc., and moreover it’s just nice to spend time chatting out of the office—a good way to blow off steam. But fast food is death, and the kind of sit-down restaurants that cater to lunchtime office workers typically only offer large portions of calorically dense food. So it became another minefield, because I wouldn’t have stayed trim or fit if I’d eaten out all the time, yet I didn’t want my colleagues to think me any more aloof than they already did.

I wound up taking a lot of leftovers back to the office and then not eating them, and then feeling guilty for wasting food and stupid for spending so much money on it.

Comment #15: felagund  on  09/24  at  01:48 PM

Ah, yes, I was wondering when phylosopher would stop in to let us know that he has the solution to everything, which is that every choice but his is awful.

I’ll just shut down the thread now, as the problems have been solved.  Now, on to curing cancer!

Comment #16: Jesse Taylor  on  09/24  at  01:49 PM

“When Alison Austin was closing in on 50, she decided to wage war on her personal weight issue by pushing her employees into healthy lifestyles.”

So…because she was having difficulty controlling something about herself, she decided to start exerting even more control over the other people in her life vulnerable to pressure?  Great.

Comment #17: preying mantis  on  09/24  at  01:51 PM

Strange you should mention the train/bus pass.  Back when I did the corporate commute, my boss paid my parking.  The train station was a mile from work.  But I liked training better than bad traffic commute.  Asked boss if they would pay my train pass instead - which was @ 1/3$ less.  Boss was shocked, shocked.  Thought she was being kind by spending more money so I wouldn’t HAVE to walk.  She wouldn’t have wanted to, and thought it would be unfair to ask me to.  But was happy to comply.
 
Sometimes, they aren’t ogres and it pays to ask/talk to them.

Comment #18: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  01:51 PM

So…because she was having difficulty controlling something about herself, she decided to start exerting even more control over the other people in her life vulnerable to pressure?  Great.

I know what’s always helped me feel better at work is feeling pressure to do what my boss does so that I can fit in.

Comment #19: Jesse Taylor  on  09/24  at  01:55 PM

Ah, yes, I was wondering when phylosopher would stop in to let us know that he has the solution to everything, which is that every choice but his is awful.

I’ll just shut down the thread now, as the problems have been solved.  Now, on to curing cancer!
Comment #16: Jesse Taylor on 09/24 at 12:49 PM

Hey Jesse, would you mind actually reading my post before you blast it.  Those first 3 points aren’t about solutions.  As for the fourth, it’s about co-opting something you don’t like and using it for your own purposes. 

If you’re accepting anecdotal stories like wayloopys, then you need to accept it for the opposing view, too.

Comment #20: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  01:56 PM

I’ll just shut down the thread now, as the problems have been solved.  Now, on to curing cancer!

That’s funny you should mention cancer. I had cancer once, but what I did was, I got a megaphone, and I spoke into my thigh (that’s where the cancer was, it was thigh cancer) and I said “Listen, cancer cells, you’ve chosen the wrong thigh. I’ve arranged my life perfectly, and when someone arranges their life perfectly, things like cancer don’t happen to them. It would be more convenient for me if you would go ahead and evolve into cancer-FIGHTING cells, so that I can get back to my massively awesome life. ” And, you know, those cancer cells? Today, they’re in my testicles, fighting off some little whiny, freeloading pre-cancerous cells; tomorrow they’re scheduled for melanoma duty.

Too many people don’t think of reasoning with their cancer cells. That’s just pessimistic!

Comment #21: Auguste  on  09/24  at  01:58 PM

phylosopher, co-workers who bring in goodies or go out for pizza are not your boss, usually, and therefore you don’t usually feel like you have to eat with them.  Whereas it’s pretty easy for coercive pressure to join the boss’s weightloss group to become an unfair component of your job, for you to feel like raises/promotions depend on being enthusiastic and letting the boss into what should be a very personal and private area of your life.  Not to mention giving up even more of your precious personal time.

Your perception and that of most of the people who take this stance on obesity is that obesity happens in a vacuum—that it’s just bad personal choices, just eating too many Hostess treats, and that fat people just need more finger-shaking and head-patting. But given that there’s already lots of fat-shaming going on out there in the society at large, and it seems to be having zero effect, the case for lack of health/obesity among Americans being a result of systemic issues, such as commute times, is a strong one.

I would point that from the employer’s perspective, the research that shows diets and weightloss programs don’t work long term should be leading to alternative forms of encouraging health, not more reliance on same.

Comment #22: emjaybee  on  09/24  at  02:00 PM

So…because she was having difficulty controlling something about herself, she decided to start exerting even more control over the other people in her life vulnerable to pressure?  Great.

I know what’s always helped me feel better at work is feeling pressure to do what my boss does so that I can fit in.
Comment #19: Jesse Taylor on 09/24 at 12:55 PM

Jesse, you’re in law school, right?  So you’d do weel to examine your argument for its flaws.  You’ve set up a disjunct of either pressure to eat well, or no pressure. False disjunct.

The pressure is the constant.  The either/or is pressure to eat badly or well.
If the boss is saying hurry and get this done, just grab a snack and the only snack available is crap - how is that NOT pressure to eat crap?

Comment #23: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  02:04 PM

Just to set the stage… Jesse = one of my favorite issue/snark writers ever

Phylospher,  perhaps the first point put some folks off.  I’ve never had anyone puppy dog me if I say no to a cupcake or just grab an iced tea at the fast food lunch (while I plan to snack on my carrots & apple back at my desk later).  I am not denying it happens, but wow - that’s their deal.  Morality police are not needed in the office place, period.

I agree with you about the suburban refugees.  If you are a tin-foil-hat nutjob like myself, these folks are in deep doo doo when fuel finally and permanently becomes very costly.  Also as a hippie-@ss lefty, I think the flight to the burbs has badly damaged the cities they left behind.  Oakland is a prime example.  Rather than work the school board, improve the education for everyone, it’s easier for folks to move “for the kids, to a suburb with better schools.”  I think this may be crossing irredeemably into a moral judgment on my part, but as a believer in the commons, I think we all share a bit of the blame for allowing the commons to rot… but I digress.  Badly.  I’ll have to epic fail myself.  Please don’t let my comments hijack the thread.

I also agree that some folks don’t want to do any work to to be fit, who’d rather play a video game or watch TV, even if their employer gave them free time to work out.  No scandal there.  There are also people on Prednisone who balloon up and probably don’t want to explain their fragile position to their bosses.  You can know which kind of folks you are dealing with when you create office policy, but you can enable the people who want to do right.

And, yes, lobby your employer to get something you think is reasonable and will help.  I, personally, have completely unpredictable hours so carpooling or limited hours of supplemental transportation won’t work, but if my employer puts me on a client in downtown Oakland, I’ll gladly walk the 2 miles to and from.  This wasn’t a bad suggestion, just doesn’t work for everyone.

So I think you have some good points.  i also laughed at Jesse’s response and that lightened up my morning.

Cheers, e

Comment #24: wayloopy  on  09/24  at  02:12 PM

WHy not be able to offer counter pressure to a worker who always brings in the fattening baked stuff and then looks puppy-dog-eyed hurt when you say “no thanks?”

Because the problem isn’t with the choice of food brought in, but with the worker’s idiotic response to the polite decline of his offer. It would be just as obnoxious if he was offering steamed broccoli.

Or the clique that always chooses a fried fast food place for lunches - and then ostracizes you if you don’t go along or try to steer them someplace healthier?

I’d say that trying to politely (and non-judgementally) steer them is the counter-pressure. If they’re ostracising you over something as petty as that, find another “cool kids” lunch table to sit at.

I feel for wayloopy but there are far too many people who’ve opted for the distant commute so they could buy the cheap bigger house and yard in the trainless, busless, sidewalkless burb

And that’s a choice. A bad choice, in my opinion, but a choice. The company town (or the company that offers on-site perks to gull employees into putting in unpaid overtime) isn’t a better alternative.

There are also the folks who still don’t see a reason to be fit, no matter how much time they have

Again, a bad choice (although I’ll also note that fit isn’t necessarily equal healthy). And all the brochures and happy-happy seminars and healthy snacks in the break room won’t change that.

And hey, if your employer is footing the bill, they get to decide on the wellness plan (go public option) but couldn’t you try to co-opt that into an avenue for your suggestions?  It worked at my company.  When employees explained why they drove instead of trained, employer got a van to pick up at the train station(not a walkable distance or route) - which means walk on one end and still be able to get to work at the other.

Well, it looks like your employer is one of those who’s actually interested in funding the village and not just the cheap, brightly painted flats put up by HR. Normally in American corporate life, though, this is the exception.

And no, they’re not all ogres—just people who are so caught up in the Human Resources/Fourth Purpose Culture that they (including many HR people themselves) don’t even know it. The problems your boss had processing a seemingly clear-cut cost-benefit analysis regarding the transit pass is a great illustration of what happens when you’re that deeply enmeshed in a culture that sees everyone first and foremost as a consumer mindlessly obsessed with convenience and superficial style.

Comment #25: Gracchus.  on  09/24  at  02:13 PM

You’ve set up a disjunct of either pressure to eat well, or no pressure. False disjunct.

See, here’s the problem: no.

Comment #26: Jesse Taylor  on  09/24  at  02:16 PM

``How do we move wellness or rebrand it away from having an on-site gym?’‘

That sentence contains so many corporate-speak neologisms, I’m not even sure what it means. Seriously, WTF?

I think it’s a nice idea to have corporations be more concerned about their employees’ health, but the point is that it has to remain a choice. Even if that means that some people are still going to want McWhoppers every single day. With the sneaky way that corporations have been aggregating rights at the expense of workers, and considering that for most people healthcare is still tied to an employer-purchased plan, I’m reluctant to allow them a window to get in on controlling people’s personal lives in the name of “health.”

Comment #27: sophronia  on  09/24  at  02:16 PM

phylosopher - People don’t generally decide to move out to the soulless suburbs on a whim. My family is out here for two reasons. #1 (sufficient unto itself) is that here is where the schools we need are. I have one child blowing the top off gifted & talented, and another who gets PT, OT & speech and who is being evaluated for G&T;right now - I should put them in a shitty school to improve Daddy’s commute?  #2 - the last place we lived, we did live within walking distance of work. The result? Work felt perfectly free to haul him in at any hour of the day or night - after all, it was much easier for him to get there than those poor people who lived further away. Even living where we do, and at a different plant, we get the same thing - they call my husband at 3am, rather than the dude who lives another 30 minutes out.

We don’t want to live conveniently close to work because it’s convenient for the employer - that’s rather the opposite of convenient for us. As the 109 hour work week that caused the job change rather showed.

Comment #28: Tapetum  on  09/24  at  02:17 PM

If the boss is saying hurry and get this done, just grab a snack and the only snack available is crap - how is that NOT pressure to eat crap?

We’re saying that the problem isn’t the junk food, it’s a boss who’s such a poor manager that he’s telling a hungry employee who hasn’t had a full meal: “hurry and get this done, just grab a snack.”

Comment #29: Gracchus.  on  09/24  at  02:18 PM

And to expand on my last comment, I made it entirely clear that the workplace is inherently pressure-filled, and that the pressure of work is what constantly forces us to make unhealthy decisions.  By simply reapplying that pressure to allegedly healthy decisions, you’re not making anyone healthier.

I’d keep going on, but I’d be remaking the same argument I already did, and I wouldn’t be lecturing terrible lazy people, so I don’t think it would help phylosopher.

Of course, I’m also defending myself to someone who doesn’t actually read the post, so there’s that.

Comment #30: Jesse Taylor  on  09/24  at  02:18 PM

phylosopher, co-workers who bring in goodies or go out for pizza are not your boss, usually, and therefore you don’t usually feel like you have to eat with them. ....

Did you read felagund’s post?  It often is coercive - ever hear of a peer group?  Collegiality?  Networking?workplace culture?

Your perception and that of most of the people who take this stance on obesity is that obesity happens in a vacuum…

Couldn’t be farther from the truth.  As I’ve posted before, I’m actually heavily in the fresh/local food movements - personally and professionally.  Yes, it is a systemic problem.  The problem with this site is that every step towards improving the situation is meant by whining and individuals seeing ulterior motives.  There is no way to solve it allatonce; that doesn’t mean that incremental steps are useless.

There’s also a huge lack of generous reading, here.  No article can convey the tone in which a program is instituted. There’s always an assumption of control and heavyhandedness -sounds like the ReThuglicans talking about public option healthcare.

I would point that from the employer’s perspective, the research that shows diets and weightloss programs don’t work long term should be leading to alternative forms of encouraging health, not more reliance on same.
Comment #22: emjaybee on 09/24 at 01:00 PM

ANd there’s no reason that even a misguided effort on the part of an employer can’t be used as a way to bring about the alternative forms you want.  Again, I’m just presenting my own anecdote, which is as valid as anyone elses.

Comment #31: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  02:19 PM

See here’s the problem: yes.

Jesse, you set up OTHER pressure at work and disregarded/omitted the pressure in having the unhealthy stuff around.  If employer is picking the vending machines or buying the meeting lunch/snacks, then that’s direct employer pressure to eat badly.

Comment #32: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  02:27 PM

I think it’s positive to offer healthier snacks at work and Zumba classes, although the bit about being each other’s conscience creeps me out.  I worked in a female dominated office and diets were all the rage.  It went in cycles though.  Most people didn’t actually stick to the diets, but they sure tried to make those who refused to comply feel bad.  My boss was told by another co worker that she shouldn’t eat carrots because they’re full of sugar.  Another co worker got chewed out for putting salt and pepper on her veggies.  I just refused to get into these competitive games.  And the truth is, no one lost weight long term anyway. 

But the systematic issues associated with obesity and unhealthy lifestyles are really what need to be addressed.  Unfortunately we live in a society that likes to blame the individual and ignore societal forces because saying that we should make changes as a society is socialist.  If employers really cared about making their employees healthier, they would cut the length of the work week and offer telecommuting and flexible schedule options. 

I have a health condition that makes me susceptible to diabetes and heart problems and sitting for 10+ hours each day as required by my job was making me horribly unhealthy not to mention miserable.  I found myself struggling to squeeze in exercise and finding the time to cook healthy meals, often not being able to manage either.  Finally I decided to go part time and work from home which has allowed me to turn things around by staying more active and having more time to cook, as well as get a reasonable amount of sleep.  But I had to make a huge sacrifice and depend on my husband to do that which most people can’ t do.

Comment #33: rebelliousjezebel  on  09/24  at  02:29 PM

ANd there’s no reason that even a misguided effort on the part of an employer can’t be used as a way to bring about the alternative forms you want.

And that’s fine. No-one’s arguing that bringing healthy foods into the breakroom is a bad thing. But note that decisions like this, which affect everyone, are generally top-down initiatives in corporate America, with a primary goal of increasing control over the employees.

I’d rather focus on reducing the number of those misguided efforts rather than wasting time and energy trying to game them.

Comment #34: Gracchus.  on  09/24  at  02:29 PM

We’re saying that the problem isn’t the junk food, it’s a boss who’s such a poor manager that he’s telling a hungry employee who hasn’t had a full meal: “hurry and get this done, just grab a snack.”
Comment #29: Gracchus on 09/24 at 01:18 PM

Yeah, it’s a problem, one that won’t get solved tomorrow in this economy.  However, the choice of available food can be changed - tomorrow.  But you’d rather nothing be done - go stuff a Snickers in your face - and make it fried.

Comment #35: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  02:30 PM

Yeah, it’s a problem, one that won’t get solved tomorrow in this economy.  However, the choice of available food can be changed - tomorrow.  But you’d rather nothing be done - go stuff a Snickers in your face - and make it fried.

I’d stuff my face with someone else’s words, but it seems you’ve beaten me to it.

Comment #36: Gracchus.  on  09/24  at  02:35 PM

Funny how there are still people who don’t see the relevance of office workers’ organizing unions.  If the workers are this company were organized, they’d have a much better chance of having an ongoing discussion about what they’d like to change about the workplace—from scheduling to commute issues to what there is to eat/do in the officebuilding—and, of course, the power to negotiate with this boss over how things should change, and to work and fight to get the kind of workplace they want.

If this is genuinely for the workers’ benefit, they need participate in the decision—not in a “give me you input and I, the boss, will make the final decision” way, but as genuine, co-equal participants.  They’re not children.

Oh, and a little note on this:

She then banned doughnuts, soda and sugary items from the office, even replacing the coffee machine with herbal teas.

Even those changes, if made unilaterally by the boss, are illegal if the workers have organized a union, unless they’ve explicitly agreed in a contract to give the boss unilateral control over that kind of thing.

Comment #37: Pesto  on  09/24  at  02:36 PM

@ tapetum #28.  Hello fellow GT parent.  Magnets? And beware even the suburban schools - often those programs are highly inadequate for the Pg and EG, IME.

You’ve conflated two problems.  You did the job change.

For some, there are reasons for the moves other than that, but if you look at the advertising (and this includes historically), the big draw is billed as more house and yard for your $.

Comment #38: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  02:37 PM

I remember the first time I ever heard “fuck off, bitch” coming from the mouth of a well-bred Texan lady aimed at another.  In that soft accent it sounds like “f’koffff, beych”, and is almost invariably said with the sweetest, warmest kindest smile. 

The phrase shouldn’t be used by men for obvious reasons, and they can’t manage either the softness or the intonation.  But if any situation requires its dulcet use it is this one and this psycho-posing-as-a-sweetie is the perfect and the necessary target.

Any volunteers?  Amanda’s accent is too lean and clean to manage it, but perhaps she knows somebody?

And when we’re done can we create a corps of these folks to say the same thing to progressively bigger and bigger companies?

Comment #39: seeker6079  on  09/24  at  02:39 PM

But I had to make a huge sacrifice and depend on my husband to do that which most people can’ t do.
Comment #33: rebelliousjezebel on 09/24 at 01:29 PM

Why is it when women do that it’s relying on one’s husband, but if men do it’s reorganizing/downshifting for the good of the family?

Comment #40: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  02:40 PM

I’d rather focus on reducing the number of those misguided efforts rather than wasting time and energy trying to game them.
Comment #34: Gracchus on 09/24 at 01:29 PM

And how do you plan to do tat Gracchus - and not just you, but the average worker at the desk.  My point is that the powers that be have given the worker a venue by proclaiming they are health friendly - now those changes can be couched in that framework.  Just like the economic arguments.

Ex.  If requests for flextime were seen as “wanting to get out of work,” it can now be couched in the time to go to gym/health cost saving language.

Comment #41: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  02:45 PM

phylosopher—because context exists.

Comment #42: Punditus Maximus  on  09/24  at  02:54 PM

Sheppard became inspired to make changes after seeing an abundance of fast food in her lunchroom. She cleared out the vending machines and stocked the lunchroom shelves with fruit and nuts. She brought in Weight Watchers and offered Zumba exercise classes in the office two nights a week, two low-cost programs. She says the candy jars are disappearing and smoothies are the new afternoon snack break.

The most important thing I’d like to know is, did this actually work?  Did these changes actually make people healthier or thinner?  Smoothies are not always healthy, and some candy isn’t that bad (for example, sucking on hard candy can help you resist cravings for snacks, while not adding up to that many calories.)

I’m not healthier.  I’m just consuming fewer calories.

Yes, being thing doesn’t necessarily mean being healthy.  I’d like to see a better measure of health than just the scale or clothing sizes.  I’d be more convinced if they looked at other things like sick days or productivity.  If someone starves to lose weight, that’s often less healthy then being overweight.  Many people end up cutting not just calories, but vitamins, protein, and fiber too.  And of course there are factors in our health that have nothing to do with weight.

Comment #43: bananacat  on  09/24  at  02:55 PM

And how do you plan to do tat Gracchus - and not just you, but the average worker at the desk.

By making it clear to my employer that if they want the best results from me on their behalf, they have to stop treating me like a child through the proxy of HR. Or, failing that, taking Pesto’s suggestion at #37 and trying to redress the power imbalance by bringing in a union that’s as responsive to the employees’ desires as HR is to the desires of management.

Comment #44: Gracchus.  on  09/24  at  02:56 PM

If they want my productivity to drop like a STONE, then by all means they should take away the coffee machine. Caffeine = how I get by without prescription stimulants, kthx.

Comment #45: Rikibeth  on  09/24  at  02:58 PM

And, to be clear (lest you be tempted to put more words in my mouth), I have no problem with gaming a crappy system if that’s the only alternative. But it’s a waste of resources, and doesn’t change the larger issue and deeper dysfunction.

Comment #46: Gracchus.  on  09/24  at  02:59 PM

There are also the folks who still don’t see a reason to be fit, no matter how much time they have

There are also the folks who just don’t get it that skinny does not equal fit or healthy.  Leave it to phylospher to be the morality police and tell us that all of our problems are due to laziness or bad choices.  There are plenty of reasons that people live in suburbs.  Many are good reasons, some aren’t, but nobody has to justify their decision to you.  Parents might like to live in a place that has better schools or in a house that has a yard.  Couples might want to live somewhere that is between both people’s jobs.  Many people just can’t afford to live in a city.  It’s not about being cheap; it’s about saving money where you can so you can afford to buy food.  Some people feel bad about having pets (especially dogs) and keeping them cooped up in a city apartment.  None of this even matters because you don’t have the right to judge people for choosing to live in a certain place.  We all know that you make perfect choices and life your life perfectly so nothing bad will ever happen to you, but other people have situations that are different from yours and sometimes they can’t make a perfect decision but just the best one that is available to them.

Comment #47: bananacat  on  09/24  at  03:11 PM

I don’t understand how replacing the coffee machine with herbal teas was supposed to help anyone with their *weight*. Caffeine, in addition to being a stimulant, is an appetite suppressant. I would guess that the average person who is addicted to caffeine in the workplace would gain weight when the caffeine is removed. I know I personally eat to stay awake when I don’t have enough access to caffeine or when the caffeine isn’t doing it for me. (And smoothies have *vastly* more calories than coffee, considering that coffee has, basically, none. If you drink smoothies to stay awake because someone replaced your caffeine with flavored warm water, you *will* gain weight.)

Also, it probably would have done her employees a lot more good to recommend that everyone who’s physically able should take their legally allowable fifteen minute break per four hour day to take a brisk walk outside. I mean, fruits and nuts as available snacks instead of candy is all well and good, but without exercise, you’ll just get fat eating so-called “healthy” foods. Also, without exercise, getting thin won’t make you any healthier.

Comment #48: Alara J Rogers  on  09/24  at  03:17 PM

By making it clear to my employer that if they want the best results from me on their behalf, they have to stop treating me like a child through the proxy of HR. Or, failing that, taking Pesto’s suggestion at #37 and trying to redress the power imbalance by bringing in a union that’s as responsive to the employees’ desires as HR is to the desires of management.
Comment #44: Gracchus on 09/24 at 01:56 PM

OK, I’m waiting - where’s the laughter at Gracchus’ suggestion about how easy it is for the admin asst. to the VP of the VP to just stalk into the CEO’s office and tell/him/her they need to make this change?
And organizing a union is just soooooo easy - especially in states that are virulently anti-union and in a recessionary economy where the unemployment rate is at 10% in some states?

Comment #49: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  03:21 PM

How about creating a culture where health is encouraged without all the fat-shaming? I spend as little time at a professional place of employment as possible. I don’t spend extra time there worrying about coworkers’ weights, and they’d damned well better not be worrying aloud about mine. 

And if my boss were some idiot anti-fat crusader, she could find herself anyother copy monkey. I work for a paycheque. Period. I’m not interested in collecting people who think they have a right to parent me or ‘be my conscience’ – I have my own conscience, thanks, and being fat is not a moral issue – merely because they happen to sign that cheque.

The Herold article is offensive on so many levels.

Comment #50: Nil  on  09/24  at  03:21 PM

@ catgirl - wow, even though my quote said ‘fit” you read “skinny”  Please tell us where you learned to read like that?  And I didn’t tell you or anybody else about your problems, I used one concrete example of a clearly obese and clearly ill because of it and clearly refusing to do anything about it person to show that these people DO exist, and it’s not always time constraints because the guy is laid off.

Comment #51: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  03:26 PM

2) I feel for wayloopy but there are far too many people who’ve opted for the distant commute so they could buy the cheap bigger house and yard in the trainless, busless, sidewalkless burb, then whine how they don’t have time get to the gym or see their kids but spend three hours a day in the car. 

Because everywhere that they could have lived within the city was either six times as expensive, or a bombed-out wreck?

I mean, I live in a city. This doesn’t apply to me, because I choose not to live in a suburb. But my parents live in New York State. Living in the *city* in New York State is simply not an option, because housing prices in the city are outrageously high. So people commute by train for four hours a day, and while a train commute is much more pleasant than a car commute, it doesn’t actually give you exercise. (Admittedly walking a few blocks to the subway and then walking out of the subway is more exercise than most suburbanites get, but still.)

In Philadelphia, your choices were: live in a bad neighborhood with outrageously crappy schools, or live in an expensive good neighborhood with public transit, or go out beyond the public transit and suffer 90 minute daily commutes for a location a mere 20 miles away. Most parents will prioritize the safety of their children and the quality of the kids’ education over being able to walk to work.

Finally, maybe you didn’t notice, but all the frickin’ jobs moved to the suburbs. I live in a big city and I still drive 30 minutes to work every day because my *job* is in the burbs. When I lived in Philly, the public transit didn’t work for me to get to my job because it went the wrong way; the train station 3 miles from my workplace had no reasonable way to cover those last three miles, so I *had* to drive. Believe me, that drive was the ninth circle of hell and if I had had any public transportation options that wouldn’t have taken more than twice as much time, I would have taken them. If the jobs are in the suburbs, then even living *in* the city doesn’t free you from the commute. (And living in the suburbs actually makes matters worse unless you’re in the specific suburb where the job is.)

I don’t fault people for choosing to live in suburbs. I fault employers for moving all the jobs there; I fault racists for generating the white flight phenomenon that destroyed the cities in the first place (now, there are good reasons that have nothing to do with racism to stay out of many of the cities, but it wasn’t the case when it started); I fault suburban planners for not including options for walking and biking; I fault transportation authorities for having far fewer rail options than should exist. I don’t fault individuals. People do the best they can for their own circumstances.

Comment #52: Alara J Rogers  on  09/24  at  03:27 PM

As to living in “the suburbs.”  Some of us live out there because we can’t afford to live in the city.  Everything is more expensive IN Seattle than in the surrounding suburbs.  We live in one of the cheapest because this means we can now afford healthier foods.  And my commute’s about the same, even though when we did live in the city, the distance was roughly half the distance I have to travel now. 

But a lot of the people in our neighborhood live there for the cheap rents, and commute to their service industry jobs in downtown Seattle, in downtown Bellevue, because they can’t afford to live close enough to walk or bike. 

Bike commuting is encouraged, sort of, but each bus only has two slots for bicycles on the front, and so if you do bike, you have to trust that only one other person who has gotten on that route ahead of you decided to bike as well.  And no, you can’t just take an earlier bus when you already take the first one.

Comment #53: GeekGirlsRule  on  09/24  at  03:29 PM

Also, it probably would have done her employees a lot more good to recommend that everyone who’s physically able should take their legally allowable fifteen minute break per four hour day to take a brisk walk outside. I mean, fruits and nuts as available snacks instead of candy is all well and good, but without exercise, you’ll just get fat eating so-called “healthy” foods. Also, without exercise, getting thin won’t make you any healthier.
Comment #48: Alara J Rogers on 09/24 at 02:17 PM

Careful Alara - someone will surely come on to object that she’s now goosetepping her employees around the block and forcing them out into the cold.  And agree, on the coffee.  However, coffee and coffee machines have come today not to mean coffee - black, rich nectar, ahhhhhh, but powdered, fake cream and sugar machine made cappucinos that no Italian or even Starbucks barista woudl recognize as coffee.

Comment #54: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  03:32 PM

<drat> I enabled a threadjack.  sorry, jesse.

Comment #55: wayloopy  on  09/24  at  03:35 PM

OK, I’m waiting - where’s the laughter at Gracchus’ suggestion about how easy it is for the admin asst. to the VP of the VP to just stalk into the CEO’s office and tell/him/her they need to make this change?

No laughter, because there’s a chain of command at work (at least when HR isn’t constantly inserting itself into the mix with “why we can’t” excuses). The admin. assistant suggests it to her boss, if it makes sense to him he suggests it to his, etc. Until it gets to someone with real power. If a reasonable and cost-effective idea it doesn’t make it up the chain, there’s likely a weak/dysfunctional/compromised/greedhead link.

And organizing a union is just soooooo easy - especially in states that are virulently anti-union and in a recessionary economy where the unemployment rate is at 10% in some states?

As I said, if there’s no alternative you’re stuck gaming the crappy system until things beyond your control (like the economy or the law) improve. And if the state is anti-union, there’s some small recourse there (especially if you can find a union willing to organise a legislative fight). “Right to work” or union-friendly, it’s always going to be hard.

By the way, thanks for putting more words in my mouth. I’m starting to see where Jesse is coming from when it comes to your debating style.

Comment #56: Gracchus.  on  09/24  at  03:36 PM

Yes Alara, cities vary , though.  And then some folks choose to live in a burb on the other side of the city from their job in the burbs - huh?
Around here, we have the complication that taxes in the neighboring state are cheaper. It has little to no public transit.  SO there are tons of folks doing these ridiculous commutes who tell you they moved out there because of how much house they could get - and the schools still suck, and they still complan about taxes.  ANd white flight is still happening because this is still the most segregated area of the country.  ANd they still tell you, with a nudge that they moved because the schools were getting “bad,” etc.

Comment #57: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  03:37 PM

The Herold article is offensive on so many levels.
Comment #50: The Devil’s Advocate v 1.1 on 09/24 at 02:21 PM

And perhaps that’s the problem - which is what I’ve been trying to point out in part - it’s the article - blame the writer.  The bosses doing this could be getting employee input, asking/modeling/encouraging, but the writer thinks these “aggressive” words sound better. 

I’m giving the bosses the benefit of the doubt here.

Comment #58: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  03:41 PM

Careful Alara - someone will surely come on to object that she’s now goosetepping her employees around the block and forcing them out into the cold.

I doubt that Alara is talking about a perky-bunny CEO like the one in the orginal article, who equates “recommending” with banning certain things (e.g. doughnuts, soda and sugary items, or other ways to spend your break) and practising the MBA version of the Little Red Book.

Comment #59: Gracchus.  on  09/24  at  03:45 PM

Gracch, I’ve been slammed how many times on this board for suggesting someone walk somewhere or cook a meal, and been told no, no time, how dare you suggest it you elitist prick.  And now you just casually through out spurring legislative action and union organizing?  Still waiting for the laughter.

Comment #60: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  03:45 PM

And now you just casually through out spurring legislative action and union organizing?  Still waiting for the laughter.


Yes, that’s exactly what I said: “casually.” As in “Right to work” or union-friendly, it’s always going to be hard. [bolded for your benefit]

If you hear any laughter, it’s at your bad-faith arguments.

Comment #61: Gracchus.  on  09/24  at  03:48 PM

I don’t know.  Our whole way of living is so frakked, I don’t see cutting back hours as much of a solution for most people.  Long commutes and overworking aside, I think most Americans just don’t know how to use their time effectively anymore.  I primarily blame cars for this.  Since it’s so easy and fast to do things by car, people don’t really take a moment to consider how much time they might wind up wasting running a quick trip to the grocery store every day, as just one example.

These time sucks have gradually creeped into the American lifestyle for a long time now, and it’ll take a big shift to reverse it and get Americans some free time back to do things more worthwhile, like get exercise and spend more quality time with the family.

Comment #62: keshmeshi  on  09/24  at  03:51 PM

I’m giving the bosses the benefit of the doubt here.

If there’s one thing you should never give a boss, it’s the benefit of the doubt.

Bosses aren’t your friends.

Comment #63: BlackBloc  on  09/24  at  03:53 PM

And as I recall(I was a spectator in those debates), you were slammed not for making suggestions, but rather for insisting that everyone do those things regardless of context. I do a lot of walking and cook some meals because my personal context (income, work-life balance, location, etc.) affords me those opportunities.

I don’t insist that workers get more pro-active—I just suggest it’s own their own best interests and let them judge whether it makes sense in their own context.

Comment #64: Gracchus.  on  09/24  at  03:53 PM

Every minute I spend cooking is one less minute I have to spend watching Jim Rome Is Burning on my TiVo or watching those NetFlix DVDs I’m paying $18/month for or playing Civ II or reading Pandagon.  Time is a precious commodity.

The place I previously worked put in an on-site gym with everything you’d find at Gold’s.  Few people used it, and neither did I.  By 6 PM I’m tired and the last thing on my mind is hopping on the elliptical for 30 minutes and doing a circuit through the weight machines for another hour and then taking a shower for another 20 minutes.  In the mornings I’m lucky to get up by 8 AM so I can’t exactly do all that in the mornings instead.

Fighting obesity means a total lifestyle change that a lot of people, myself included, just aren’t prepared to make.  All our downtime would be devoted to health and fitness instead of the things we really enjoy doing; and who really wants to spend the rest of their life doing things they don’t enjoy?

Comment #65: liberalrob  on  09/24  at  05:00 PM

<quote>I’m giving the bosses the benefit of the doubt here.</quote>

So what you’re saying is that you’ve never held a job.

Comment #66: Punditus Maximus  on  09/24  at  05:01 PM

I’m in pretty good shape, due mostly to bike commuting and rarely eating out. I’m definitely considered the weird kid in my office for riding a bike in, like I’m refusing to grow up or something. I’m sure it’s part of the reason I’ve been passed up for promotions, in fact, even though it has no impact on my job functions at all.

So I eat in most nights and bicycle around—these are two very healthy measures and they keep costs down quite a lot. But you know what? Working, commuting on my bicycle, and preparing meals is pretty much all I do, at least on the weekdays. I work from 8-5, I get home at 6:30 or so, I sit down to eat at around 7:30 or eight, I walk my dog, water my garden, tidy up the house, watch a movie and go to bed. There is literally no time for anything else. I wouldn’t begrudge anyone for wanting to pencil in a little more “me” time each week, or enjoy a pint of beer with friends instead of chopping onions night after night. I enjoy cooking and bicycling and everything but making healthy choices takes a lot of time. I can definitely see how any other outside responsibility could seriously cut into your time available to sustain that sort of a lifestyle.

Comment #67: Jenny Dreadful  on  09/24  at  05:15 PM

Should I ever work in an office again, and should I wish, for whatever reason, to have a goddamn cookie with my lunch or even for my lunch, I do not want to hear a word about it from anyone.
Would people in general be healthier if they ate more whole grains, fruit, veg. and exercised more?  Sure, in general.  Does anyone deserve to be shamed for eating a candy bar?  No.
In other words: Go ahead and bring in the herbal tea, but don’t take away my coffee.  And maybe make sure you’re not overworking your employees so they can go home at a decent hour and do whateverthehell exercise they want to.

Comment #68: Ledasmom  on  09/24  at  05:19 PM

<quote>I’m giving the bosses the benefit of the doubt here.</quote>

So what you’re saying is that you’ve never held a job.

*Snort*.

Either that or s/he’s… (shudder) middle management.

Comment #69: BlackBloc  on  09/24  at  05:29 PM

Yeah, I’m not fond of the creeping workplace in which you are expected to spend more of your life at and structure your entire life around work, even your leisure activities.  I love working out but I wouldn’t want to be sweating, struggling, and, uh, listening to embarrassing music options on my iPod in front of my co-workers.  Not to mention, I’m not particularly fond of the idea that the boss has the right to dictate your “lifestyle choices” whether it be drug testing or workplace diet plans or whatever.  It WOULD be nice to have more flexible work schedules to enable people to make more choices not dictated by their job.  Though, frankly, how people spend that time is none of anyone’s business.

And I would add that our workplace was hosting a series of wellness seminars that were supposed to be fun! free! things where we could get free screening for various things (high blood pressure, cholesterol, etc.) or get educational materials.  Turns out they were hosted by our company’s insurer and lo and behold, if you read the fine print on the registration materials, the insurer had right to that information.

Comment #70: pennylane  on  09/24  at  05:32 PM

”phylosopher, co-workers who bring in goodies or go out for pizza are not your boss, usually, and therefore you don’t usually feel like you have to eat with them. ....”
“Did you read felagund’s post?  It often is coercive - ever hear of a peer group?  Collegiality?  Networking?workplace culture? “

Jeffs Boss – where should we have the meeting, how about that seafood place?
Jeffs co-workers (in unison) – no, Jeff dosent like seafood
Me – oh no, the seafood place is fine is you guys want

Maybe your co-workers just don’t like you very much

Comment #71: jefft452  on  09/24  at  06:02 PM

As one of the privileged few who actually has a boss (actually, has a boss, his boss, and his boss the founder) who actually poll me pretty regularly about how happy I am, and take any complaints I may have seriously, it is possible to have bosses who deserve the benefit of the doubt. So it’s possible that phylosopher has just never held a *typical* job.

As a consequence of having my fabulous job, since requires 60-80 hours a week, more occasionally, I’ve seen a lot of really good ideas for improving the lives/well-being of employees. The ‘healthiness’ plans that have worked the best IME:
-providing free, healthy, cooked meals in the workplace (= save time, money, and eat healthy!)
-providing financial incentives to move within walking/biking distance
-plenty of bike storage space, showers, and changing rooms (=logistically easier to bike)
-providing whatever snacks employees request (healthy, non healthy, whatever)
-setting up cheap, time-saving alternatives to a lot of chores (ex: we’ve had flu shots available in the office for the past several years) = more time for exercise/general happiness

Unfortunately, all of these things cost the company money, which seems to be why a lot of companies don’t adopt them.

Comment #72: jalmondale  on  09/24  at  06:37 PM

“She then banned doughnuts, soda, and sugary items from the office.”

As in… I can’t eat my McDonald’s at my desk?!  This doesn’t seem at all legal, especially since all but most consumers are incredibly ill-informed about what is and is not healthy.  (case in point- fat free cookies and the like).  Therefore, one employer’s idea of what is healthy might be the vegan down the road who knows a thing or two’s junk food.

Comment #73: Babs  on  09/24  at  06:38 PM

er… “all but some consumers.”  Can also be read as “most.”  And yes, I know I’m generalizing- but one only need look at all the processed foods on our grocery store shelves to assume that most folks simply aren’t doing the assorted bulk dried grains/ veggies/ legumes thing.

Comment #74: Babs  on  09/24  at  06:39 PM

I work in Insurance. (no, not health, but home and auto). My last employer got more and more aggressive about losing weight. Joining weight watchers and/or the 50 million pound challenge was drummed into you. We had seminars on healthy eating and how to exercise better. We were inundated with materials at work on losing weight. It got very in your face and aggressive and we started to slowly lose our privacy. Just before I left there, they wanted us to fill out a questionnaire that would be kept by the boss (locked of course!) that listed all our prescriptions we were on so if we ever collapsed at work they would be able to tell the paramedics. That was basically the last straw for me, so I looked for a job elsewhere.

My new Insurance company is where the first one was about 5 years ago. But I see it coming. Small changes at first, but I’ll bet the pressure is going to start getting higher and higher. All because employers our providing our health care. What is the matter with all those tea-baggers anyway, wanting to keep our insurance with employers?

Of course neither insurance company would do the things that would actually matter. How about letting us leave 1/2 hour early if we went to the gym? Or putting the facilities near public transportation? Or making sure we had some moving time at work, and not just sitting at a desk for 8 or more hours a day?

My first insurance job was in a suburb nowhere near public transit, but so close to a highway off ramp! Then I moved with them to another state and again, they were out in the suburbs. I moved to a bordering suburb to be close to work. Then I changed jobs, and now I work in a city, but I still live in that suburb. The only problem with moving closer is there is no real public transit anyway in the small city I live in. So no matter where I lived, I’d have to drive. The only city anywhere near me that has any transit is Boston, and that is over an hour away. (on a good day with no traffic). But if I found a new job in Boston and moved there so I could take public transit, my rent would double or more. (have you seen the rents in Boston)?

As for my own healthy living, I used to live with a partner and we had two cats. He had different hours than me, so we took turns with all the chores, shared the bills, etc. Then he died suddenly and now it’s all on me. I take care of myself, the house, two cats, and all the bills. I so very miss having someone to share that with. It’s made everything harder. Yeah, gradually I’ve become accustomed to it, but I still have less time and money to exercise, buy healthy food, and work out.

Comment #75: acoolerclimate  on  09/24  at  06:48 PM

I *AM* asthmatic, thank you. And an employer who deprives me of coffee will see a Thermos on my desk and get a very rude response if she thinks it’s any of her business. Caffeine is a good asthma medicine, and produces less jitters than the prescription drugs. Also, you know what seems to ease the inflammation pain of asthma for me? Dairy fat. I don’t know why, I doubt if it’s even been researched, but toffee from a vending machine can help with both the sugar-burning problems I get when I’m on the asthma meds (they are stimulants, I get hypoglycemic) and also reduce my discomfort.

So FUCK the idea that what is healthy is a one-size-fits-all standard! The stress hormones I’d be producing from an asthma attack without my wellness foods would be bad for me. I’ve fallen to the floor from I-just-took-my-albuterol sugar crashes. And I would find a workplace that judged me too stupid to know what helps me to be very hostile indeed.

Comment #76: Samantha Vimes  on  09/24  at  07:46 PM

I really like phylosopher’s idea of having a treadmill hooked up to the computer so you can work on your TPS reports and get in shape at the same time. While we’re at it, we can install a Wheel of Pain and have illegal immigrants push it to run the air conditioning.

Comment #77: Entomologista  on  09/24  at  07:47 PM

Pointy-Haired Boss:  We’re empowering you.

Dilbert: Does that mean that I can control my own budget allocations and prioritize among ongoing tasks?

Pointy-Haired Boss:  No, nothing like that.  It’s just a word enabling us to blame you for doing what we told you to do.

The fitness things is interesting, especially when we note how this boss handled it and the problems that jalmondale noted.  Basically, companies are interested in you being healthy if it means extra obligations on you and more orders for you to follow and things that they can preen themselves about.  If it means an obligation on them then they don’t like it one little bit.  I noted the problem in the George Will Will Grump at You Thread:

...Take Toronto, for instance: a brutally hot and drainingly humid city in the summer.  A friend of mine with a large Toronto company found herself marched down to the obligatory Big Meeting Room to be told by the Sr.VP in Charge of Proles and PR that their company was going green, blah blah blah, and how the staff would have to do this, that and the other, blah, blah blah, world leader blah blah…. And then opened the floor to questions.

First question: Will the company install showers so that more of us can bike to work instead of driving or taking the TTC (and thus freeing up mass transit for other riders)?  Answer (translated into plain English): fuck you, do you think we’re made of money?  Bike to work and it’s your responsibility to make yourself magically clean by the time you walk through the door.

Comment #78: seeker6079  on  09/24  at  08:21 PM

And as I recall(I was a spectator in those debates), you were slammed not for making suggestions, but rather for insisting that everyone do those things regardless of context.

Then you recall incorrectly.  I argued that it was possible to do it.  And that there were ways of doing, here’s an example/anecdote, even with some inconveniences.  And those were about individual actions with fairly minor risks - you are talking about some major organizing/coordinating of others and at risk of job.

Comment #79: phylosopher  on  09/24  at  11:53 PM

I really like phylosopher’s idea of having a treadmill hooked up to the computer so you can work on your TPS reports and get in shape at the same time. While we’re at it, we can install a Wheel of Pain and have illegal immigrants push it to run the air conditioning.
Comment #77: Entomologista on 09/24 at 06:47 PM

That one does need context.  I’m talking about voluntary, and particularly in an academic setting.  And it comes from two sources.  A doctor who rigged up his own treadmill computer; he’s also a researcher who argued that the prehistoric human evolved to travel long distances at a steady pace.  ANd walking slowly while typing kept him in good shape.

Combined that with one university that has hooked their cardio stuff to power some of their computers.

Comment #80: phylosopher  on  09/25  at  12:08 AM

Conflicted here. I’m a boss (no boss shaming please, I didn’t ask for this job). Several staff came to me and asked me if I would support a Weight Watchers at work program because all of them wanted to join but they couldn’t fit it in with their child care arrangements. I said yes because I thought it was a reasonable suggestion. We subsidise it so it’s cheaper for most people than joining by themselves. I joined myself, partly to show support and partly because I could probably stand to eat a bit less fat and a few more vegies and WW is not too bad in that regard. They’ve now asked me if we could organise for a personal trainer to come in and run classes once a week and I’ve agreed to that as well.

I understand what some people are saying about not wanting to spend more time at work than they absolutely have to and I sympathise because that’s how I feel about work too. But I have also over time learned that not everyone feels like that. Many people in my workplace enjoy work for its social aspects. They look forward to interacting with their peers and are very positive about work giving them opportunities to undertake activities they enjoy with their coworkers (e.g. charity knitting clubs, green activities, volunteering work).

I would never dictate what people can and can’t eat and I do believe people can be healthy at any size. But I’ve also been thinking about some of the social club functions we run which tend to be barbecues (we have a barbecue near the staff tea room) or morning teas with cakes. I’d like to suggest that we also provide a few more salads alongside the steaks and sausages and maybe offer juice as well as soda. Not sure what we can do about the cakes though wink

I don’t know what sort of terrible runin Gracchus has had with HR people in the past but I have found it useful to have HR professionals to tap into when I need the support in dealing with groups of people. I tend to respond logically rather than emotionally to things in the workplace (I don’t have a huge emotional investment here) and so it’s really useful for me to have people available to remind me that people at work feel threatened by change and become emotionally attached to particular aspects of their jobs and that those feelings need to be respected while moving through change. It’s also useful to me to have someone remind me that people value external validation and acknowledgement of their work (this is not something that I particularly need so it comes hard to me). I know that all sounds very HR speak and could be weasle worded to mean nothing at all but that’s not how I use those ideas when applying them in the workplace. And maybe that’s the problem. If HR ideas sound good but are empty of content it’s no wonder that people become cynical about them.

I often laugh at TV shows that depict a boss demanding something from a staff member (usually by yelling at them) and that staff member doing whatever they are told because that is not at all my experience of ‘bossing’. In my experience you have to pursuade people to undertake tasks. You have to give them reasons and those reasons have to make sense to them, otherwise people resist and undermine and nothing ever gets done. This has been my experience in every workplace I’ve ever been (including school).

Apologies for the wall of text.

Comment #81: JC  on  09/25  at  02:02 AM

I’d also like to add that a little research on the companies we’re looking at here might be important, too.  The first one, TACOLCY is a non-profit youth services center.  Ms. Austin is a WOC from the community, fairly recently promoted/hired and her staff has 21 people.  So, a couple of items 1) African Americans have a much higher rate of complications from obesity - diabetes for one. I think. 2) Talcolcy deals with youth at urban community center(s)- I imagine there may be some of those role model considerations.  She did ban soda, donuts and sugary items. Yep, they are also invovled in healthy eating/school gardens.  I’m seeing more of a consistency with their mission than a heavy handed unilateral BOSS. 

3) Reread the second article quoted above. That CEO changed out the vending machines for healthy snacks, the healthy snacks possibly gratis?  She then brings in WW and Zumba and offers (not mandates) them.  She reports that the candy jars are disappearing - not that she has banned them.  AND she reports that smoothies are the new snack - not that she feeds them to workers via forced IV. 

I think Jesse’s commentary really skewed the actual actions.

Comment #82: phylosopher  on  09/25  at  02:54 AM

Nobody, not even the boss, should be able to exercise dominance in the workplace. Most offices are an eclectic mélange of personalities and idiosyncrasies where we share a common environment for 8 to 12 hours a day. Clearly stated rules about what is or is not acceptable in that shared space is critical if productivity and collegial behavior is to be fostered. Having relocated from the liberal Northeast to a strongly conservative Midwest state, I was shocked at the amount of overtly religious and political bullshit posted in the office area. After finding anti-choice flyers, complete with photos of aborted fetuses, greeting me every morning, I was forced to escalate the issue through management. The result – the issue of clearly worded policy regulating the posting of sectarian or political material in the office area.  “The social arrangements that produce responsibility are arrangements that create coercion, of some sort.” [Garrett Hardin, The Tragedy of the Commons] Surprisingly, a fair number of coworkers voiced their satisfaction that this uncomfortable situation was finally brought under control while a small number of hardcore wingnuts interpreted the new regulations as an imposition on their right to free speech. Office harmony required necessitated the imposition of rules for behavior. “Freedom,” said Hegel, “is the recognition of necessity.”

Comment #83: BobbyV  on  09/25  at  08:24 AM

phylosopher, non-profits can be environments where management and culture is just as dysfunctional as in the for-profit sector. Sometimes moreso. I suppose, being an optimist, you have a natural instinct to think the best of people like Alison Austin, but let’s go to the article:

Austin, CEO of Belafonte TACOLCY Center, a 40 year-old social service agency in Liberty City, says she started by holding a mandatory staff meeting and bringing in a nutritionist. She then banned doughnuts, soda and sugary items from the office, even replacing the coffee machine with herbal teas. ``We became each other’s conscience,’’ she says of her 21 staff members.

She had a personal issue, and then decided to project her personal issues as a matter of importance on the rest of the workplace. She held mandatory meetings on the matter, pulling employees away from their core responsibilities in order to give them an additional set of responsibility. She got rid of coffee in the office, which is, let’s face it, coming close to a crime. She then “banned” certain foods from the office. We don’t really know the context, here, but I eat at my desk and wouldn’t really appreciate somebody telling me what food I can and can’t have. This all sounds pretty dysfunctional, though certainly well-intentioned.

It is always fair to be suspicious of “workplace initiatives” that start to impose on employees outside the constraints of the workplace mission. Things like your level of health and fitness are very personal. Everyone wants to be healthy, but when the workplace becomes about shaming people into not participating in the corporate “fun run/walk” and lecturing people about diet, then something’s going wrong. And I say this as someone’s who’s a bit of an exercise fanatic.

Comment #84: Tyro  on  09/25  at  09:24 AM

Then you recall incorrectly.  I argued that it was possible to do it.  And that there were ways of doing, here’s an example/anecdote, even with some inconveniences.  And those were about individual actions with fairly minor risks - you are talking about some major organizing/coordinating of others and at risk of job.

No, you argued more than that it was just possible. You argued that everyone can and should, and when others brought up those “inconveniences” (especially those barriers faced by the working poor) you brushed them off as minor. And even that would have been fine as a point of debate, except that you also kept insisting that someone like with little spare time should feel ashamed (or, in my case, “own” my shame) for not spending it cooking.

And, phyl, you asked me how to focus on reducing the number of misguided efforts in an organisation. I gave you two approaches that employees typically take to doing that (approaching their immediate supervisors, forming unions). I was also clear that they were not easy things to do, but not easy != impossible (especially in a good organisation with good manager). Also, I didn’t ascribe any moral judgments for a worker not doing those things.

Comment #85: Gracchus.  on  09/25  at  09:35 AM

===

Conflicted here. I’m a boss (no boss shaming please, I didn’t ask for this job). Several staff came to me and asked me if I would support a Weight Watchers at work program because all of them wanted to join but they couldn’t fit it in with their child care arrangements. I said yes because I thought it was a reasonable suggestion.

I’ve been a boss, too, and when employees came to be with a reaonable suggestion I’d generally implement it and—if these cost-benefit analysis made sense—apply company funds to it. That’s not what’s going on in these situations, which are top-down initiatives.

Similarly, no-one here has trouble with encouraging a positive social atmosphere. But when that changes to a cult-like or high-pressure “We became each other’s conscience” atmosphere, or turns into a high-school social atmosphere, that I have a problem. I’ve heard this all too often, for example, about United Way campaigns in workplaces—United Way is a wonderful and effective charity, but frequently the individuals assigned to running a UW office campaign pressure co-workers into volunteering/contributing and using the campaign to establish peer-group dominance and self-aggrandise. In the cases described here, the bosses are encouraging a conformist atmosphere that goes well outside basic and reasonable workplace conduct rules.

I don’t know what sort of terrible runin Gracchus has had with HR people in the past but I have found it useful to have HR professionals to tap into when I need the support in dealing with groups of people.

I should clarify that my issue isn’t with individual HR people, but with HR’s role and practises within American corporations, and with its effects on and reflection of American cultural values. To put it bluntly, there’s a lot of BS and weasel flung around as a matter of procedure by such departments, and not a whole lot of practical need for those departments in the first place.

I tend to respond logically rather than emotionally to things in the workplace (I don’t have a huge emotional investment here) and so it’s really useful for me to have people available to remind me that people at work feel threatened by change and become emotionally attached to particular aspects of their jobs and that those feelings need to be respected while moving through change. It’s also useful to me to have someone remind me that people value external validation and acknowledgement of their work (this is not something that I particularly need so it comes hard to me).

You know, I tend to respond the same way. It also comes hard to me. The difference is that I was taught and accepted that it’s also my basic responsibility as a an effective manager to remind myself of those things. They’re not weasel words in and of themselves, but over the decades the HR Culture has stripped them of their value.

Comment #86: Gracchus.  on  09/25  at  09:39 AM

hmmm….
from comment 12
“1) Co-workers as morality police - that works both ways.  WHy not be able to offer counter pressure to a worker who always brings in the fattening baked stuff and then looks puppy-dog-eyed hurt when you say “no thanks?” Or the clique that always chooses a fried fast food place for lunches - and then ostracizes you if you don’t go along or try to steer them someplace healthier?”

from comment 82
“She then brings in WW and Zumba and offers (not mandates) them.”

yes of course, when you refuse the home-made cookie that the clerk-typist in accounting brought in, you can kiss your career goodbye

but if the person who decides raises, promotions, and who gets laid off “offers” you something there is no pressure at all

Comment #87: jefft452  on  09/25  at  12:46 PM

,blockquote>She held mandatory meetings on the matter, pulling employees away from their core responsibilities in order to give them an additional set of responsibility. She got rid of coffee in the office, which is, let’s face it, coming close to a crime. She then “banned” certain foods from the office. We don’t really know the context,</blockquote>

Comment #84: Tyro on 09/25 at 08:24 AM

Tyro, see the Chinese telephone effect.  The article says ONE meeting with a nutritionist.  Maybe that was because employees said they needed more info, I dunno - but neither do the rest of us here.  Maybe the bans were the result of employee ideas after that meeting -  I dunno - but neither do the rest of us here.  And again, I can imagine the scenario where employees say things like - I can diet, except when the spouse/kids/co-workers keep putting Doritios/fundraiser candybars/donuts under my nose everyday of the week, if somebody would just ban the junk….so she did, and we’re not even sure if that means from the common area or from the personal desk.

Comment #88: phylosopher  on  09/25  at  08:29 PM

(especially those barriers faced by the working poor) you brushed them off as minor. ...,

Uh, no.  I specifically said things like, should implies can - and putting up preserves isn’t something you do over a heating grate.  And I also stipulated that there were assumptions logically made about Pandagon and its readership that it wasn’t an exclusively or even majority working poor blog.  Judging from poster self-reporting about their jobs/home family life, I think those are fair assumptions.

I was also clear that they were not easy things to do, but not easy != impossible
Comment #85: Gracchus on 09/25 at 08:35 AM

Gee, and doesn’t that sound familiar.

Comment #89: phylosopher  on  09/25  at  08:38 PM

non-profits can be environments where management and culture is just as dysfunctional as in the for-profit sector. Sometimes moreso. I suppose, being an optimist, you have a natural instinct to think the best of people like Alison Austin, but let’s go to the article:

Not saying it can’t be dysfunctional, though I think most are less so because in many cases, there isn’t the pressure to not only constantly make a profit, but increase the profit and the rate of profit growth…
my mainpoint in that post was to show a compelling reason for the office as role models - it sounds as if the office and the physical place where the children come may well be the same - kids can spot hypocrisy a mile away -  I mean can’t you just hear it?  Ms. Austin told us we’d liek broccoli and shoudl try it, but I saw the McD’s bag next to the M&M;‘s on her desk - she just doesn’t want to share her Twinkies.

Comment #90: phylosopher  on  09/25  at  08:43 PM

yes of course, when you refuse the home-made cookie that the clerk-typist in accounting brought in, you can kiss your career goodbye

but if the person who decides raises, promotions, and who gets laid off “offers” you something there is no pressure at all
Comment #87: jefft452 on 09/25 at 11:46 AM

Jeff, I don’t know about you, but I’ve worked in some places where “the boss” was in the office for maybe 5 hours a week.  The co-workers were there for 40-60.  and while they may not have been directly responsible for you continued employment, they can make one’s life hell - and no, I wasn’t the victim here, but an observer. The victim eventually got fired - nice guy, too, because it affecte dhis work output. 

And from my personal perspective, as someone who cooks, I know that effort goes into it, and I appreciate that effort.  ANd hate to see it snubbed - and yeah, to the point of self—sabotage sometimes.

Comment #91: phylosopher  on  09/25  at  08:49 PM

I specifically said things like, should implies can - and putting up preserves isn’t something you do over a heating grate.

Is that how it is for the working poor, then? Living on heating grates?

Seriously, the problem remains with the “should” part, when it comes to a personal matter like food and eating and how it fits into one’s life. You may be “someone who cooks,” but that doesn’t make you particularly unique, let alone deserving of special praise from people you don’t know.

And I also stipulated that there were assumptions logically made about Pandagon and its readership that it wasn’t an exclusively or even majority working poor blog.

Sorry, Phyl, your claiming that assumption is logical doesn’t make it true—lots of people (even some of those working poor who live on heating grates) have access to the Web nowadays. It’s likely that your assumption is correct, but why assume at all?

In any case, I recall people bringing up both their own personal situations, as well as those of other socioeconomic classes. Your response regarding those not living on heating grates was finger-wagging shaming or damning with faint praise for “owning” a supposedly bad behaviour (i.e. not being [dramatic pause] “someone who cooks”). I can see why you sympathise with these particular managers/executives.

Gee, and doesn’t that sound familiar.

Yes, and deliberately so. Not so much unfamiliar as unsurprising, on the other hand, is your selective editing out of the sentence that followed, with contained the key difference between your approach and my own. I make no moral judgments if people choose not to take on difficult tasks, because those choices emerge from a variety of options and contexts.

I do make judgments about shoddy debating tactics, however. You’ve certainly provided us with some excellent examples in this thread.

Comment #92: Gracchus.  on  09/25  at  09:12 PM

There are also the folks who still don’t see a reason to be fit, no matter how much time they have

You’re right. And that’s none of your fucking business, you moralizing blowhard.

Comment #93: Nobody in Particular  on  09/25  at  09:20 PM

Sorry, Phyl, your claiming that assumption is logical doesn’t make it true—lots of people (even some of those working poor who live on heating grates) have access to the Web nowadays. It’s likely that your assumption is correct, but why assume at all?

Uhmmm, because it’s usually a good idea to have an inkling of who your audience is when one writes.  And no Grac, not “because they have Web access,” rather because of what posters have actually said in reference to their situations and their occupations. 

No, if they’d owned it, as in, and as someone did, “I don’t like to do it”, so I don’t, hey, fine, whatever. 

The folks I had the problem with were the ones who wanted pre-absolution. The ones who would sit in the dark because turning on the light switch took effort - and they had a litany of excuses - Fucking OWN the DeCISION.

Again, whatever.  Pandagon used to be a place that had a little bit of spirit.  I’m sorry BabyHueyJesse has an enabler complex and the whiners now come out to get their daily dose. ENjoy it Gracc, ‘til it becomes your habit, too.

Comment #94: phylosopher  on  09/25  at  11:39 PM

re comment 91

i say again, maybe your co-workers just dont like you very much

Comment #95: jefft452  on  09/25  at  11:55 PM

So more than likely to Allison I would be the antichrist for bringing in the results of my baking experiments, at holidays and for people’s birthday’s. Oh well! More for people who want some!

Also - why don’t more company “wellness” programs allow for say, pointing out that it IS OK to take personal days once in a while and offer say money for a gym membership each month?
Of course it would be all whining about how “they pay and (some) people don’t go” but hey the people who DO use it will appreciate it - take the free bus passes at my work. Noone in our office drives to work anymore.

Comment #96: Danica Lefse Queen  on  09/27  at  12:55 AM
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