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Next entry: Why can’t the rest of the Dems learn from Barney Frank and OWN these town hall protestors? Previous entry: ‘Jesus’ Caviezel’s Trinity Broadcasting Network’s special guest at its Holy Land Experience

Individual responsibility is a red herring

This baffling article by David Leonard about trying to control fatness through punitive measures at the NY Times really drove home to me how much I’m convinced that the issue of what causes obesity—-one that gets the bulk of the attention in discussing the topic—-is a red herring. Outside of policies designed to make it easier for Americans to eat right and exercise, ideally policies that make eating right and exercising easier than not doing so, I don’t really see the value in discourse about individual responsibility.  The notion that people are fat because we aren’t hard enough on them doesn’t gel with reality.  In the real world, fat people are subject to so much social disapproval and punishment that it’s traumatizing for some.  The high levels of punishment for fatness now haven’t done a damn thing to reverse the trend of growing waistlines for Americans.  You can believe that obesity has no relationship to diet and exercise, or you can believe, as a scientist in this article states, that the law of conservation of matter is the relevant one when talking about weight gain and loss, but everyone in this discussion thinks Americans would do well to eat better and exercise more.  And since we’ve seen that the punitive approach doesn’t work, then it’s time to shift gears, no matter where you stand on the science issues. 

I knew that this article was going to get on my last nerve when it kicked off with the idea that smokers need to be treated not like people suffering from an addiction, but like spoiled children who need to be sent to their room.

Two years ago, the Cleveland Clinic stopped hiring smokers. It was one part of a “wellness initiative” that has won the renowned hospital — which President Obama recently visited — some very nice publicity. The clinic has a farmers’ market on its main campus and has offered smoking-cessation classes for the surrounding community. Refusing to hire smokers may be more hard-nosed than the other parts of the program. But given the social marginalization of smoking, the policy is hardly shocking. All in all, the wellness initiative seems to be a feel-good story.

I don’t feel good about it.  You know what’s not great for someone trying to stop smoking?  The stress of being unemployed.  But this sort of punitive attitude assumes something that doesn’t jibe with reality, which is that smokers are doing what they do because they’re proud of themselves for having an unhealthy habit.  The only smokers I’ve known that weren’t eager to quit were the ones who just started, and were still trying to convince themselves that they wouldn’t get addicted.  But smoking is, if I remember correctly, the second most addictive drug there is (after heroin), and so if anyone can lay claim to the fact that their habit is actually a disease, it’s smokers.  And if you were going to pick an addiction for an employee to have, I’d guess it would be smoking!  Most drug addicts see a marked decline in their productivity.  All smokers want is occasional smoke breaks.  Because you’re a smoker doesn’t mean you can’t administer good health care.  No one knows better than a smoker how much it affects your health in the here and now, and they can share that information with patients.  I know that one reason I was able to drop the habit before it got too bad for me was that I kept recalling a school teacher I had who got winded after climbing a single set of stairs, even though she was young and skinny and had no other health problems.

But you can see how this attitude of doling out severe economic punishment to smokers is going to translate to obesity policies.  In this case, the clinic can’t refuse to hire fat people, but they’d dearly like to.  That’s fucked the fuck up.  Again, if you want to reduce obesity rates, look at the facts: Obesity is strongly correlated to poverty.  Making more poverty amongst fat people isn’t going to help them out in any way, even the way you’d hope, which is by causing them to lose weight. 

Then Leonhardt makes a patently false claim:

You can disagree with the doctor — you can even be offended — and still come to see that there is a larger point behind his tough-love approach. The debate over health care reform has so far revolved around how insurers, drug companies, doctors, nurses and government technocrats might be persuaded to change their behavior. And for the sake of the economy and the federal budget, they do need to change their behavior. But there has been far less discussion about how the rest of us might also change our behavior. It’s as if we have little responsibility for our own health. We instead outsource it to something called the health care system.


No discussion about individual responsibility?!  The entire discourse around weight and related health issues is centered around individual responsibility.  Has he never flipped on a TV and seen all the guilt-inducing diet ads?  Sure, liberals like to talk about revising agricultural policies, restricting food advertising to children on TV, and making cities more walkable, and everyone else likes to ignore us in favor of shaking a finger at fat people.  There’s very little serious discussion about actually rewriting policy in a way that discourages the act of making money by feeding people more calories than they can burn off, especially with cheap food.  Thus, I will have to suggest that this myth that we don’t have enough punitive approaches to obesity is something that people tell themselves because they enjoy lashing out at fat people. 

Like a lot of other bigotries, particularly misogyny (which fatphobia is tied to), I think a lot of the reason people lash out is because they’re trying to distract from what they consider their own personal weaknesses.  So you see the dreaded Mimi Roth on TV, and you know two things are going to happen: She’s going to push hateful, dehumanizing stereotypes about fat people and she’s going to talk about food in a way where she embodies the disgust/desire conundrum.  The two emotions are strongly linked in most people (think of how, after you gorge yourself on greasy food, or for some, on a sex toy, and after your sated, you immediately want to banish it from your sight), but Roth is almost fun to watch because the two emotions are one and the same in her.  Mimi Roth is hungry, and she’s going to distract herself by lashing out at some fat people, who she assumes never put themselves through her cleansing ritual of suffering.  (When I’m hungry and trying not to eat before dinner, I just chew gum and play Rock Band to distract myself, which probably doesn’t pay as well.)  She believes in the automatic moral superiority of self-denial, which has yet to work when it comes to sex, so I fail to see why not eating makes you a better person.

I know I sound like a broken record on this, but the morality/disgust approach to public health issues has, so far, never worked, and so introducing it to discussions about diet, weight, and related health issues is likely to follow the pattern of history and fail miserably.  Most thinking people finally figured this out with sex.  Shaking a finger at people, calling their sexual desires disgusting, and telling them “just say no” hasn’t worked at all.  People do much better when their desires are validated and brought out of the closet, where we can then have a non-shaming discussion about how to have both what you want sexually and be safe.  It turns out that if you present it in this way, people are much more likely to feel positively about individual responsibility.  We also needed to address systemic inequalities that make being safe harder to do.  People who live in poverty, who have poor access to contraception and education—-they subsequently have poorer health outcomes.  Only be addressing the pressures on them will we get better results.  This model strikes me as the only appropriate one to take when it comes to the issues of food, exercise, and related health issues.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:56 AM • (133) Comments

“But the Star Bellied Sneetches had stars upon thars.”

The whole “fat” debate boils down to skinny people who have stars on their bellies wagging their fingers at larger people who don’t.  Sure some folks who are too large have severe health issues - so do some folks who are too thin.  If we were concentrating on those issues, this debate wouldn’t be so damn stupid. 

Of course, if we concentrated on those issues then no one would be making money from the weight-loss con game, and then how would so many blogs and talk radio talkers get funded?

Comment #1: NonyNony  on  08/19  at  11:03 AM

Her name is somewhat unbelievably spelled MeMe Roth, and she was noted in the New York Times as being an anti-cupcakes-in-the-schools activist.

Her college degree is in journalism.

Comment #2: Hector B.  on  08/19  at  11:11 AM

Mostly I’m just waiting for people to start hating on the smokers. smile

Comment #3: Lisa KS  on  08/19  at  11:21 AM

everyone in this discussion thinks Americans would do well to eat better and exercise more.

In general, it might make us more healthy, but chances are it won’t make us any thinner. This article from Time magazine briefly goes over the incredibly depressing work to loss ratio that makes exercising to lose weight a losing game (only, not in the sense that you’re going to lose weight). Once you’re fat, it’s practically impossible to get it off through eating less and exercising more. Your body will fight you every step of the way. Paul Campos’ book, The Obesity Myth looked at study after study done on the relationship between dieting and weight loss and and came to the same conslusion, although their authors and the media rarely admitted it. I haven’t read it yet, but I understand Gina Kolata’s Rethinking Thin found the same thing.

I’m fat, but I’m a guy, so I’m not subjected to nearly the level of fat shaming that women are, and thoughts about my weight still take up nearly every moment of my day. I’m embarassed to go out in public, I hate my reflection, and if I wake up in the middle of the night, my first thought/sensation is of how huge and disgusting I am. I’m terrified that someone who knew me when I was young and thin might see me as I am now, to the point that I wish I could retroactively erase my memory from everyone who ever knew me. So, Fat Shamers? Mission accomplished. It still hasn’t made me lose any weight.

I’m amazed at how people I know (or even barely know) feel completely free to comment on my weight or size. Even if you think you’re being lighthearted or jokey, it’s still none of your goddamned business.

Comment #4: Egnu Cledge  on  08/19  at  11:37 AM

On an unrelated note, is anyone else experiencing problems when cutting and pasting within Pandagon? If I try to highlight a portion of text, my computer freaks out, and either highlights everything on the page, or just jumps out of the post. It just started about a week ago, and it’s not happening on any other site.

Comment #5: Egnu Cledge  on  08/19  at  11:39 AM

But this sort of punitive attitude assumes something that doesn’t jibe with reality, which is that smokers are doing what they do because they’re proud of themselves for having an unhealthy habit.

I never started smoking because as a child I watched it kill, or nearly kill, several members of my family. The funny thing is, I have considered taking up cigarettes in the hope that I could smoke instead of eat.

Comment #6: Egnu Cledge  on  08/19  at  11:45 AM

I don’t want to quit smoking. If it didn’t kill you, I wouldn’t try. I actually like the ritual of lighting up, exhaling, etc. How much of that is my brain rationalizing the chemical addiction, I don’t know, but it feels like two separate things. I’ve always liked the smell of tobacco smoke, even before I started smoking.

My problem with the ‘we won’t hire smokers’ is that it’s none of their goddamn business. It ought to be ILLEGAL for your employer to inquire into what you do in your own time, especially by blood test. If you want to carve out an exemption so airline, etc., can make sure pilots aren’t cokeheads, fine, they can apply for a license to do so. But no more of this pee in a cup to work an office job. (And to any idiots out there, no, you can test my pee all you want, you won’t find any illegal drugs. But it’s the principle of the thing.)

I dunno how you could adapt this to meaningfully protect heavy people from not being hired for that reason, but it wouldn’t hurt to have that on the books.

Comment #7: witless chum  on  08/19  at  11:46 AM

Egnu, yes to the cut-and-paste bug, and thanks for bringing it up—it’s been driving me bonkers for about two months now and I’ve checked and re-checked my settings.  I’m pretty sure it is a setting, however, as it happens on my laptop 100% of the time, but on my desktop only about 50%.  Anyone have any friendly advice for Windows XP users? Pandagon is the only site that gives me this issue, so something’s up with the marriage between this site and my personal tech.

Comment #8: Ranylt  on  08/19  at  11:46 AM

Amanda, you make some good points about increasing walkability,etc. in American cities.  My friend moved to Paris after university and soon lost 50 lbs; the walking and the smaller portions of french food worked well for him.  But there’s a lot of stuff I don’t agree with. 

“But this sort of punitive attitude assumes something that doesn’t jibe with reality, which is that smokers are doing what they do because they’re proud of themselves for having an unhealthy habit. “

It’s not that smokers are proud of themselves for having an unhealthy habit.  It’s that they’re addicted - but here’s the thing.  Some research shows that addiction is a choice.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/05/26/addiction-new-research-suggests-its-a-choice/

People make cost-benefit tradeoffs every day, in their minds, even with their addictions.  If the punitive social costs and health costs associated with smoking outweigh the pleasure and relief they get from smoking regularly, then they’ll be more likely to quit.  Canada has been shaming people into stopping smoking for years, and it’s worked:
http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2009/08/13/Canadian-smoking-rate-drops-to-18-percent/UPI-67901250196228/

In most jurisdictions in Canada, smoking is not allowed in any public building, within 9 feet of a building entrance, on a covered patio, in your car if there’s minors present, etc.  The increased social stigma, along with excise taxes, has worked in reducing smoking rates.

“The high levels of punishment for fatness now haven’t done a damn thing to reverse the trend of growing waistlines for Americans. “

True, possibly.  But the median age of the country is also increasing, which would impact obesity rates as metabolisms slow down.  Plus, you don’t know how high the obesity rates would be if there weren’t a social stigma. 

“I know I sound like a broken record on this, but the morality/disgust approach to public health issues has, so far, never worked, “

Islamic societies emphasise regular washing as part of religious requirements, and they have some of the lowest rates of contagious disease tranmission (like influenza) on the planet.

Comment #9: PeterZeroOne  on  08/19  at  11:47 AM

“On an unrelated note, is anyone else experiencing problems when cutting and pasting within Pandagon?”

Have you tried checking for updates for your browser?  That can cause the most random problems sometimes.

“In general, it might make us more healthy, but chances are it won’t make us any thinner.”

Well, ill-health is, in addition to the inherent problems, ammunition and cover for people who just want to scream at fat people without looking like unadulterated bigots.  If Americans were healthier, it’d be harder for the body-shamers to hide under the health banner. “Americans heavier than ever, type 2 diabetes rates plummet” helps defang it a bit.

Comment #10: preying mantis  on  08/19  at  11:52 AM

preying mantis,

I also wonder how much of anyone’s desire to lose weight is associated with health. I know for myself, that I simply don’t want to be physically unattractive to myself and others. I could care less if my health improved any. I’d happily trade five years off my life for fifty less pounds of fat on my body.

Comment #11: Egnu Cledge  on  08/19  at  11:56 AM

No discussion about individual responsibility?!  The entire discourse around weight and related health issues is centered around individual responsibility.

Seriously—what planet is this guy on?

Oh, now I remember, he’s on the “evil government libruls want to take away your chocolate” planet.

Which is only one step removed from those living on “I’m obese because Jeebus made me that way out of love, so neither I nor the government should do anything to change that” planet.

[In re: the highlighting issue, it seems to be an Internet Explorer bug. Yet another reason to switch to Firefox (where this isn’t an issue) or Chrome or Opera if you can].

Comment #12: Gracchus.  on  08/19  at  12:01 PM

Empathy?

It’s hard work if you want to do it right.  It also threatens your position in the social heirarchy when you use it conspicuously

Being a scold?

Muuuuuuch easier.  Plus, you’re all high and mighty with the microphone and all the authoriteh your vocal cords can suck in.

Comment #13: shah8  on  08/19  at  12:05 PM

I’ll only post once, because I’ve already been told in these threads I don’t really exist because I have actually lost weight and kept it off (and know multiple people who have done so), but I did want to say one thing:

The notion that people are fat because we aren’t hard enough on them doesn’t gel with reality.

This is absolutely, 100 percent true.  If you don’t already feel pretty good about yourself, you will not be able to lose weight, at least not in a healthy way.  I can’t think of a single person I know who did successfully lose weight and keep it off who did it by beating themselves up every step of the way.  And I can personally testify that browbeating someone about their weight will pretty much guarantee that they not only will not bother, they’ll probably ignore even the small things they could do to be more healthy just to spite you.  (Not that I have mommy/daddy issues about my weight after my parents spent 30 years obsessing over it, no, not me.) 

Obviously, I’m leaving aside the fact that, a large part of the time, being overweight is actually a symptom of another problem—if you have PCOS or hypothyroid, losing weight ain’t gonna do squat unless you treat the underlying condition because your weight is a symptom of the disease, not the actual disease.  If you have to take steroids, you will gain weight no matter what you do or how much people browbeat you about it.  Focusing solely on weight as an indicator of health is not only cruel, it encourages doctors to ignore the fact that the patient may have a medical problem that’s causing the overweight.

Or a psychiatric one—my highest weight came when my untreated depression took a turn for the worse and I ended up sitting in my apartment all day doing nothing but play computer games.  Until I got treatment for that, trying to diet was pretty much useless because I couldn’t plan and follow through on anything.

Comment #14: Mnemosyne  on  08/19  at  12:11 PM

“I also wonder how much of anyone’s desire to lose weight is associated with health.”

There’s probably a sharp division between people who are currently suffering from a problem that might be helped by losing mass, exercising more frequently, and/or diet overhaul and people who are looking at it from a preventative perspective.  In the former group, alleviating suffering and improving the nuts and bolts of their quality of life is probably much more compelling than beach season.  In the latter, well…there’s a strong cultural wink and a nod given to all kinds of crap because of the conflation with thin and healthy.

Comment #15: preying mantis  on  08/19  at  12:15 PM

Are we sure this isn’t a massive distortion of Cleveland Hospital becoming a nonsmoking campus? All of our hospitals are nonsmoking campuses, which means you get nurses frantically chomping nicotene gum and counting down towards lunch break but on the other hand there’s less risk of triggering asthma attacks in patients.

While I largely buy into fat activism, just as fat activists note that many people can distort a naturally rotund body into an artificially skinny one for a while (no one’s arguing that you wouldn’t lose weight eventually in a famine, just that trying to live like you’re in a famine through sheer willpower is miserable and takes a toll on your mental health that most people won’t and shouldn’t have to endure), I completely believe that environment can distort some naturally medium-ish bodies into heavier ones eventually. Environment can fuck with your natural weight point quite a bit, as everyone who’s ever had a friend move to France seems eager to note in these threads.

So to me the question is “how can we make environments where the life of the body isn’t unnaturally constrained towards stillness, and appetite isn’t distorted or disordered by environmental factors.” To me, fat acceptance - and I’m not that fat, mathematically - has at least helped me create a mental environment where, for instance, I don’t put off going to the pool and swimming laps until that fictional day when my body is “bathing suit ready”, but rather swim because it’s good for my heart and I like swimming.

Comment #16: purpleshoes  on  08/19  at  12:17 PM

Not that this is important to anyone who shames others over their weight because they are obviously rude, nosy bastards who need to STFU, but shame is usually not an effective motivator for someone to take better care of themselves.  I know I feel less like taking care of myself and making healthy choices when I hate myself or am feeling down in general.  For many people, eating is soothing and comfort foods - those high in fat and/or sugar - are the food of choice for emotional eating. 

So here’s a note to those people who lean out car windows and oink or moo at overweight people on the street:  You’re not helping.

Comment #17: BadKitty  on  08/19  at  12:21 PM

The obvious tie-in here also is drug policy. Locking people up for any drug abuses, surprisingly, doesn’t stop drug addiction.  Nor does it help addicted people get un-addicted.

“Tough Love” is just shaming by a different name. I wish that phrase could be banned. It’s got nothing to do with love, but it does get used a lot by teenage penal colonies that abuse kids.

Comment #18: emjaybee  on  08/19  at  12:23 PM

I wonder how much of anyone’s desire to lose weight is associated with health

It’s a large factor, even in terms of superficial looks, because having a physically fit appearance is (rightly or wrongly) associated with good health.

As I’ve gotten older, I generally have to watch about 10-15lbs of spare tire on myself. My doctor has told me it has no real impact on my actual health (others’ mileage may vary), but I try to keep it off because it not only makes me look better, but gives me a feeling of physical well-being (which is slightly different from a state of good health).

Anyhow, the point isn’t to trade off years of your life in exchange for weight loss (and fortunately, that’s not how it has to work)—it’s to enjoy your life and feel good about yourself. If the cost in time and energy of losing 50 lbs is worth it to you (assuming all of it is “extra” weight—maybe you’re just a big guy), then do it. If it’s not worth it or you’re happy with your body, then don’t.

Comment #19: Gracchus.  on  08/19  at  12:23 PM

Telling people to just eat less and exercise more is about as effective as telling teenagers to just not have sex.  Increasing the punishment for eating too much (such as by taxes and shaming) is about as effective as increasing the punishment for having sex (such as forced birth and shaming).

Anyway, I recently saw a magazine cover in line at the grocery store.  It claimed to have some secrets for weight loss, just like every other women’s magazine.  On the very same cover, it said “cupcakes to make any day a happy day”.  It literally said that cupcakes will make you happy, while implying that losing weight will make you happy.  I can’t believe I’m the only person that noticed this conflict.

Comment #20: bananacat  on  08/19  at  12:28 PM

I was going to say that probably nothing will ever be accomplished regarding weight loss until we start to look at it like a medical problem that medicine can fix (to some degree). In other words, when you can take a pill for it (and not one that “fixes” it by making you uncontrollaby shit your pants). I doubt this will ever happen, because the whole idea that disease or ill-helth reflects a personal failure or lack of will is pervasive in the medical community these days.

I grew up going to the same family doctor my mother had gone to as a child. When he retired, and I had to find a new doctor, I was amazed at how little they were willing to treat you. For example, I suffer from migraines. It took me about two years to find a doctor who would even consider that they might actually be migraines and not just “stress headaches” (whatever those are), and even then they were reluctant to actually prescribe medicine for them. I had more than one doctor tell me that I should just go read a book about headaches and learn how to avoid them. First of all, I’m a fucking librarian. If I wanted to read a book, I could have done that on my own. What the hell am I paying for a dcotor visit for, if I’m going to be told to take care of it myself. Secondly, although there are things that trigger migraines, there are millions of them, and they’re different for everyone. Figuring out what does it for you, and being able to avoid that trigger can be nearly impossible, and even if you can, you’re still going to get them sometimes, anyway.

We need to get back to a more practical approach to medicine.

Comment #21: Egnu Cledge  on  08/19  at  12:28 PM

study after study shows that people who are likely to suffer diseases routinely attributed to ‘personal choices’ like smoking or eating bad foods (usually just things we associate with ‘being poor’) are often exposed to toxins in ways that they can’t control and are unaware of. so it’s an easy out to blame them for drinking to much soda or whatever when it might be that all the poor people in a given town are dying of some insanely rare cancer that is actually caused by exposure to the chemical plant/landfill/superfund site nearby that was built near the cheap side of town without much objection because poor people tend to be politically disenfranchised. not that i don’t hate that people eat that stuff, but individual food consumption is not the cause of our population level health problems nor will ‘personal responsibility’ be the cure.

Comment #22: JulieSunday  on  08/19  at  12:29 PM

“I can’t believe I’m the only person that noticed this conflict.”

You aren’t.  In all likelihood, it was there deliberately.  Selling people two conflicting paths to supposed happiness practically guarantees you repeat customers.

Comment #23: preying mantis  on  08/19  at  12:35 PM

Anyhow, the point isn’t to trade off years of your life in exchange for weight loss (and fortunately, that’s not how it has to work)—it’s to enjoy your life and feel good about yourself. If the cost in time and energy of losing 50 lbs is worth it to you (assuming all of it is “extra” weight—maybe you’re just a big guy), then do it. If it’s not worth it or you’re happy with your body, then don’t.

That’s just it, though. Were it possible, trading years off my life for pounds off my body would be easier and far more effective than “the time and energy” it takes to “work off” those pounds. Like I said earlier, it’s just not that simple. The amount of time and energy required to work off fifty pounds isn’t cost effective ny any measure. Even if I quit working and made going to the gym a full time job, I’d still have to go on a starvation level diet. And no one can keep that up for long. Exercise works off an absolutely minimal amount of fat compared to the amount of calories you need to take in just to stay alive. You’re behind before you even start.

Yes, I might be able to lose a little weight, but I’d never keep it off in the long run. And honestly, the thought of losing weight only to gain it back is too depressing to even contemplate.

Comment #24: Egnu Cledge  on  08/19  at  12:36 PM

The problem here I think isn’t limited to smoking, or weight or whatever. This is a much deeper, believe it or not logical problem more than anything else. Both the left AND the right do it (however the right does tend to do it more, and are more assholish about it where the left is often simply following incorrect lines of thought)

This error, is mistaking the micro for the macro. Looking at individual responsibility or individualized solutions repeated en masse as a solution for social or economic problems, quite frankly, simply does not work. If you don’t change the system that results in a certain results, why do you think individuals would have any success pushing against that system?

In this case, those ideas given, better walkability, making healthy food much more affordable than unhealthy food, more time available for individuals to exercise, reducing stress in the workplace, etc. are the FIRST things that need to be done, not the last. Changing the system to something that makes diet and exercise (as little as they help) is where to start, not where to end.

Some other examples of this error usually come in terms of labor and job hunting. The right assumes that people are lazy and if you cut them off unemployment they will go looking for jobs they’ll find them. The left assumes that people need additional training/education and they’ll find the jobs (with better wages as well). Both ignore the simple fact that “full employment” is marked as substantially above actual full employment. As well, educating more people does nothing to change the pool of available jobs (actually it may do a little, but I suspect we’re talking zero sum here), which is a finite number.

Generally speaking, one’s responsibility is about in line with one’s power in society. Your average lower class person actually has very little power, and thus, very little responsibility.

Comment #25: Karmakin  on  08/19  at  12:41 PM

Gracchus, if I remember correctly, you are a male person? Not to get into the infighting already, but I think it’s fairly challenging for most women in our culture to be happy with their bodies unless they do some fairly serious psychological work at it. There also seems to be a higher congruence between exercise and weight loss in (many) men because of the more muscular makeup of (cisgendered?) men’s bodies.

I think this is the root of how the healthy vs. skinny thing works for women in our culture, actually: the correspondence between being strong / having a healthy diet / being cardiovascularly fit and being skinny enough for our beauty ideal is largely fictitious. I know more people who have gotten there through some combination of good genetics, smoking, and poor nutrition then people who have gotten there through exercise and lots of vegetables, honestly.

Comment #26: purpleshoes  on  08/19  at  12:46 PM

Catgirl, every time I see a Ladies’ Home Journal in the checkout line I crack up. I call it the magazine of Bake a Cake and Then Don’t Eat It.

Comment #27: purpleshoes  on  08/19  at  12:49 PM

What can I tell ya, Egnu—there’s no current procedure that trades off 1 year of life for 10 lbs. If the investment in diet and excercise is not cost effective (and it sounds like it isn’t), then you’re stuck for the moment. You’re certainly not due a scolding or shaming over it.

Look, one of my dearest friends is a large guy by most measures—he has a lovely family, a job he enjoys, and eats what he likes (albeit in more moderation than he used to). He just doesn’t dwell on the fact that he’s overweight, and neither do the people who count in his life.

Comment #28: Gracchus.  on  08/19  at  12:51 PM

Mostly I’m just waiting for people to start hating on the smokers.

You missed it?

Comment #29: Magis  on  08/19  at  12:53 PM

Skinny = fuckable.  Fuckable = worthy of love.  Love = woman’s rôle.

ergo:

Not Skinny = failure, willful failure to do your duty and fulfill your destiny.

Did I miss anything?

Comment #30: Magis  on  08/19  at  12:57 PM

Gracchus, if I remember correctly, you are a male person? Not to get into the infighting already.

I am indeed a male person, and there’s nothing really to fight about, since I agree with what you said there. That’s why I make a distinction between the appearance of fitness, a sense of physical well-being, and actual health. To that I’d definitely add the psychological component you mentioned.

[I should note that I may have incorrectly assumed the Egnu is male]

Comment #31: Gracchus.  on  08/19  at  12:59 PM

Gracchus, agreed. I mean, I have a large, scottish-type build (I can actually carry a five-gallon water bottle on my shoulder, if that gives you any idea. I don’t enjoy it, but it fits). So I wish people cut women slack for just being bigger, because the shoulders are freaking useful and I do not feel like wearing black cardigans my whole life to hide my betrayal of gender dimorphism. Sigh.

Comment #32: purpleshoes  on  08/19  at  01:05 PM

Peter, you’re making what is a really common error: You’re mixing up frustrating a negative behavior with punishing it.  This is a common error people make, but it’s a fatal one.  Behavioral science has repeatedly demonstrated that punishing a behavior is extremely ineffective, but frustrating a behavior is very effective, especially if you offer an attractive alternative.  Making it harder to smoke is classic behavior frustration, and you’re right!  It works.  Shaming doesn’t, as has been shown time and time again with research done in DARE and other “just say no” programs.  In fact, “just say no” programs are associated with higher drug use, because shaming often creates a rebellious “fuck you” reaction that can encourage the behavior.

This is how you stop a cat from scratching a piece of furniture: You put double sided tape where they like to scratch and put an alternative nearby.  Hitting the cat, screaming at the cat, etc., just means they’ll do it when you’re not looking.  Punishments are associated with the punisher, not the behavior.

Let’s look at this from a diet and exercise perspective.  Shaming creates spirals of hopelessness in people who struggle to eat better and exercise more. They become depressed and ashamed and instead of getting out, they stay in and feel bad.  Then they get even less exercise and have more opportunities to comfort eat.  But we can create frustrate-replace cycles.  We frustrate bad food choices and offer replacements.  We stop subsidizing calorie-heavy but nutrient-low foods and start subsidizing other kinds.  Right now, it’s easier to drive everywhere than walk, but we could make infrastructural changes that reverse that trend.  More sidewalks, less parking.  Frustrate/replace.  That way, all but a few paranoid and clever people will feel punished.  They’ll just make different choices.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  01:05 PM

95% of people who lose weight gain it all back, plus some in about 2-5 years.  It is totally possible for Mnemosyne to be one of those statistical outliers.  It does happen.  It may have been, after reading her entry, that the depression (comfort eating and lack of exercise) had made her unnaturally heavier than her body actually wants to be.  That happens.

However, frequently what happens is that you starve and starve and starve yourself, you exercise obsessively, and you wind up developing symptoms of malnutrition, getting sick all the time, losing hair, frequent emotional breakdowns, etc…  And when you just can’t keep it up, break down and eat the amount of food your body actually wants, you gain the weight and probably feel physically better, but everyone jumps your shit for “letting yourself go.”

Starvation doesn’t just affect your body and health, it wreaks havoc on your emotional well-being as well.  And the emotional abuse heaped on you for “failing” by “well meaning” people who “only have your best interests at heart” just adds to the big pile of bullshit you have to deal with.

Comment #34: GeekGirlsRule  on  08/19  at  01:06 PM

Are we sure this isn’t a massive distortion of Cleveland Hospital becoming a nonsmoking campus?

That seems unlikely.  Read the article.

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  01:07 PM

Amanda, sorry for not reading the article out of optimism for civil liberties. I googled and found that they do in fact test for cotinine, which can be tested for in blood, urine, or saliva. That is insane and I disapprove.

Comment #36: purpleshoes  on  08/19  at  01:10 PM

What can I tell ya, Egnu—there’s no current procedure that trades off 1 year of life for 10 lbs. If the investment in diet and excercise is not cost effective (and it sounds like it isn’t), then you’re stuck for the moment. You’re certainly not due a scolding or shaming over it.

Yes, well duh. My point was that, dut to fat shaming, the desire to lose weight isn’t about health, but beauty, and that the methods put forward as a means to weight loss don’t work by any meaningful or practical standards.

Look, one of my dearest friends is a large guy by most measures—he has a lovely family, a job he enjoys, and eats what he likes (albeit in more moderation than he used to). He just doesn’t dwell on the fact that he’s overweight, and neither do the people who count in his life.

How nice for him.

Comment #37: Egnu Cledge  on  08/19  at  01:10 PM

I completely believe that environment can distort some naturally medium-ish bodies into heavier ones eventually. Environment can fuck with your natural weight point quite a bit, as everyone who’s ever had a friend move to France seems eager to note in these threads.

You’re buying into a common fallacy of our era, which is that there is a platonic/genetic ideal.  This has been repeatedly, persistently disproven with science.  Environment manipulates one’s “natural” body in all sorts of ways.  People aren’t getting taller, for instance, because of genetics.  There’s not one natural height.  It’s a combination of environment and genetics.

There is absolutely no doubt that some people are genetically inclined to be stout.  But there is no such thing as a magic weight programmed into your DNA.  That’s why it’s odd to suggest that Americans are closer to their “natural” weight than the French.  It’s not like the French are starving.  There’s a middle ground between suggesting that diet and exercise are irrelevant and suggesting that everyone can look like Kate Moss, or should want to. 

That’s why the more that fat activists invest in the idea of a natural body type and the less they put into working on rearranging our society so that fat people aren’t the target for every free-floating anxiety that people have about themselves, the worse off they’ll be.  The science just isn’t there for the idea of a single natural body per person.  I’m most compelled by fat activist arguments that fall in line with, “Everyone’s individual situation is different, and generalizing statements based on weight aimed at individuals are inherently flawed.  However, we can take a broad view and say that yes, Americans need to eat better and get more exercise, and we should craft public policy around that.  Individually shaming people, however, is cruel, bigoted, and a red herring.”  Sometimes I worry that some fat activists shrug off the larger and more important discussion about public health outcomes, because they associate that with shaming.

On the flip side, if public health activists don’t want initiatives to be associated with shaming, they should, you know, not shame.  So what if someone’s fat?  At the end of the day, can any of us say that we’ve got everything in every corner of our lives figured out?

Comment #38: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  01:16 PM

“On an unrelated note, is anyone else experiencing problems when cutting and pasting within Pandagon?”

Anyone have any friendly advice for Windows XP users?

I haven’t had any problems, but then I’m running SeaMonkey, which runs faster than Internet Exploiter, comes in PC, Apple, and Linux versions, I feel like a voice in the wilderness sometimes. until stuff like this comes up.

I can’t think of a single person I know who did successfully lose weight and keep it off who did it by beating themselves up every step of the way.

When I had to lose weight because my cholesterol count was high, I didn’t ‘blame’ myself because I don’t consider myself a big meat eater, and I began taking fish oil because I’m not big on fish outside of smoked salmon.

I also took to walking when I could, and that was enough to lower my cholesterol and perhaps have a beneficial effect on my triglycerides and other factors as well.

Comment #39: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/19  at  01:21 PM

My point was that, due to fat shaming, the desire to lose weight isn’t about health, but beauty

No, sometimes the desire to lose weight is about health—heavier people with heart conditions are usually advised by their doctors to lose weight, for example. And sometimes it’s about a healthy person wanting to lug around less weight on their body. And sometimes, yes, it is about conforming to cultural standards of beauty. And sometimes it’s about all 3 at once.

For many people, the excercise/diet combination makes sense (that’s why it’s usually offered as the default method). For others, it doesn’t (which is why the default choice shouldn’t assumed to work for everyone).

How nice for him.

It is nice, precisely because he’s not subject to fat shaming—at least not by people whose opinions matter to him.

Comment #40: Gracchus.  on  08/19  at  01:26 PM

Wow, I just looked up MeMe Roth (hadn’t heard of her before, and that is apparently how she spells her name) and found this lovely little gem in The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/may/24/meme-roth-obesity-nutrition)

“The defence has been made in the case of sex criminals that there is pleasure on the part of the victim. The same is true with what we’re doing with food. We may abuse our bodies with food, but it’s incredibly pleasurable. From a food marketer’s point of view, when your quote unquote victim is so willing and enjoying of the process, who’s fighting back?”

W.T.F.???

Oh, and apparently they interviewed her at 3:30 PM, and she had not yet eaten that day.

Comment #41: Kirjava  on  08/19  at  01:29 PM

Geek Girls, I honestly blame the diet mentality.  I think the fat activist line and the medical establishment line are the same: If you diet to lose weight, you will gain it back.  Because if you starve yourself for a short period of time to lose a lot of weight, you’ll feel punished, and as soon as your “punishment” of a diet is over, you’ll start eating and stop exercising as much, and you’ll gain it back.  The diet industry is evil, because they sell this line about how it’s like remodeling your house—-once it’s done, you can go back to just enjoying it the way it was before.  Permanent lifestyle behaviors like regular exercise and eating right are hard to sell, because they’re inevitably called “changes” (what about people who adopted them from the get-go?) and are treated like a euphemism for dieting and become dieting.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  01:30 PM

Amanda, I am also considering that a lot of metabolism is affected by prenatal conditions and conditions in very early childhood (and set by malnutrition to tend stouter and good nutrition to be slightly more ectomorphic, from what I’ve seen). I suppose I am also ideologically inclined to head for the opposite position from the American idea that our bodies are so much play-dough and can be reshaped however we want if only we have enough of a work ethic.

I think I stated my point unclearly, however: I believe that someone might have one natural weight point existing in an American environment, and a different natural weight point existing in the French environment. Neither is an unnatural weight point; both are their genetic/environment balance.

Comment #43: purpleshoes  on  08/19  at  01:33 PM

There is absolutely no doubt that some people are genetically inclined to be stout.  But there is no such thing as a magic weight programmed into your DNA.  That’s why it’s odd to suggest that Americans are closer to their “natural” weight than the French.  It’s not like the French are starving.  There’s a middle ground between suggesting that diet and exercise are irrelevant and suggesting that everyone can look like Kate Moss, or should want to.

I think the poster was referring to the fact that each person’s body tends to have a weight point at which it is set to “want” to be. This point can change, but usually the change is to ratchet it up. They weren’t saying that there is a group average “natural” weight. Also, my girlfriend-who-is-a-scientist says that a lot of research coming out lends credence to the idea that weight is to some degree genetic. I wouldn’t think that would be so hard to believe. I’m sure you’ve seen families of people that look like carbon copies of each other (including body size and shape). How else would that happen?

Comment #44: Egnu Cledge  on  08/19  at  01:37 PM

Also, my girlfriend-who-is-a-scientist says that a lot of research coming out lends credence to the idea that weight is to some degree genetic.

The extreme example of this are the Pima Indians:

As was previously mentioned during the discussion of the diversion of the Gila River, the Akimel O’odham and the Onk Akimel O’odham have various environmentally based health issues that can be traced directly back to that point in time when the traditional economy was devastated. They have the highest prevalence of type 2 diabetes in the world, much more than is observed in other U.S. populations. While they do not have a greater risk than other tribes, the Pima people have been the subject of intensive study of diabetes, in part because they form a homogeneous group.[1] The general increased diabetes prevalence among Native Americans has been hypothesized as the result of the interaction of genetic predisposition (the thrifty phenotype or thrifty genotype as suggested by anthropologist Robert Ferrell in 1984[1]) and a sudden shift in diet from traditional agricultural goods towards processed foods in the past century. For comparison, genetically similar Pimas in Mexico have virtually no type 2 diabetes.[1]

From The Atlantic

In Kosrae, an island in Micronesia, new arrivals are a curiosity, and it seemed that half the island had come to greet me and Steven Auerbach, a Manhattan-based medical epidemiologist and an officer in the U.S. Public Health Service who had worked in Micronesia in the early 1990s, when we visited last year. Dazed from our 8,000-mile journey, we groped our way down the pockmarked coastal road, driving past groves of trees bent nearly double under loads of bananas, papayas, and breadfruit. We were on our way to a funeral feast.

We arrived to find the feast in full swing. Young men in lawn chairs played cards, while toddlers squatted, transfixed, around a television screen blaring taped cartoons. Hovering women filled plates and wiped faces. Perhaps a hundred people were there, and the dead man’s wife looked bored. The deceased, buried four weeks earlier in a nearby crypt, seemed almost beside the point.

Kosraeans die young (the man in the crypt was fifty-six), but not for reasons commonly associated with the developing world. There is no famine here, and with the notable exception of upper-respiratory infections, little evidence of the diseases that cut life short in, for example, sub-Saharan Africa. The big killer in Kosrae—what some epidemiologists call New World syndrome—is a constellation of maladies brought on not by microbes or parasites but by the assault of rapid Westernization on traditional cultures. Diabetes, heart disease, and high blood pressure—scourges of affluence that long ago eclipsed infectious diseases as killers in the West—have only recently appeared here.

Comment #45: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/19  at  01:48 PM

OT but as Amanda always says, right wingers are always all about punishing:

The woman that yelled Heil Hitler at a Jewish veteran has been identified and revealed herself as anti-choice. And all about punishing sluts for having had sex.

“I don’t care what they do with this health care bill. It will not pay for abortions. If somebody wants to go out and have wild sex, for the fun of it, then they can pay for the consequences. I’m not going to,” said Pamela Pilger who was at the meeting and opposed the plan.

Comment #46: lostmypassword  on  08/19  at  01:52 PM

I suppose I am also ideologically inclined to head for the opposite position from the American idea that our bodies are so much play-dough and can be reshaped however we want if only we have enough of a work ethic.

Well, yeah.  Of course not. That’s the problem with this discussion—-all moderation and pragmatism has flown out the window.  We’re faced with false dichotomies: Either your weight is inflexible, or you can look like Kate Moss.  I’m usually not a fan of splitting the difference, but the evidence strongly points to a middle ground, where certain environmental factors influence weight strongly, but there’s also a lot of body diversity that deserves respect.  It’s both true that it’s unfair and cruel to paint fat people as asexual, unattractive, lazy, or stupid, but it’s also untrue that the shifting upwards of weight in this country has no relationship to increasing levels of heart disease and diabetes.  It’s true that correlation doesn’t equal causation with that relationship, but it’s also true that people who have optimal dieting and exercise patterns to prevent heart disease and diabetes will also be thinner as a result in most cases. 

I’m like 95% on board with fat activists.  I think dieting is wrong, I think that fat shaming is stupid and counterproductive, and I think that doctors spend so much time staring at the number on the scale, they don’t see other things. But I think that the effort spent denying a relationship between behavior and weight is distracting from the more important, more substantive discussions.

Comment #47: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  02:00 PM

Or to use an analogy: I think it’s counterproductive for anti-violence activists to say, “Nuh-uh!  She wasn’t wearing that skirt!”  Which implies that if the victim was wearing the skirt, the rape was justified.  So when I hear a fat activist deny the link between diet and exercise and weight, I feel like people who are fat and really don’t eat right or exercise are left out of the discussion, and doled out another layer of shame that isn’t helpful to them.

Comment #48: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  02:02 PM

The fixation on weight weight weight to the exclusion of everything else is worse than useless when it comes to good health outcomes. It is likely to be actively detrimental to people’s health and to their attitude toward healthy living habits. Eating a balanced diet and getting sufficient exercise will improve anyone’s health whether or not it also causes them to lose weight, but someone who doesn’t lose any weight as a result of such habits (and not everyone will) may well conclude that it’s not working and either give up (“If I’m going to be fat and sick anyway, I might as well enjoy myself.”) or go on a dangerously restrictive diet. If they had been encouraged to eat right and exercise for its own sake instead of as a path to that Holy Grail known as weight loss, they would be more likely to keep at it and enjoy the health benefits regardless of their body size.

Comment #49: Karalora  on  08/19  at  02:05 PM

Egnu, I agree that it’s a lot genetic. But it’s a lot not.  There’s an increasing tendency, like I said before, for this whole situation to get polarized, and the facts are getting lost.

Comment #50: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  02:06 PM

Also, I think MeMe Roth is an anorexic.  I don’t like diagnosing from afar, but she doesn’t take pains to hide it.  And the media attention she’s getting is disturbingly pro-ana.

Comment #51: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  02:07 PM

Amanda, most Fat Activists I’m aware of, through Big Fat Blog, Shapely Prose and the like are all about eating healthy and exercising. 

I myself am a gym rat when time allows, a size 22 gym rat, but I love working out.  I’m kind of a freak that way. 

I can’t think of a single fat activist who says no one should exercise and eat healthy, don’t worry about it, live on oreos and donuts. 

There are two things to consider when looking at the “Obesity Crisis.” 
1. Is the arbitrary lowering of the weights in BMI categories in the mid-90s.  Overnight, thousands of people who had been just fine found themselves suddenly “overweight” or “obese.” 

2.  Not even the medical establishment is immune to the “thin is better” way of thinking.  Go check out First, Do No Harm http://fathealth.wordpress.com/  Some of the people, mostly women, who write in are indeed obese, but frequently there will be letters from women who weigh in the Normal range who have doctors telling them to lose weight, or who refuse to actually do their job and diagnose real medical conditions because losing weight will fix EVERYTHING including cancer, ovarian cysts, etc… 

The problem is people, women especially, don’t trust their doctors about their weight anymore.  They can’t.  Because if you are fat, even if your numbers (cholesterol, blood pressure, blood sugar) are good and you’re active and otherwise healthy, many docs have no problem putting you on meds that will seriously fuck up your body so you can be esthetically pleasing.  Remember Phen-Phen in the 90s?  I mean, doctors are seriously advocating people take a medication that leads to uncontrollable diarrhea to lose weight.  Gastric bypass surgeries which cause complications in a HUGE number of the patients are gaining in popularity.

Comment #52: GeekGirlsRule  on  08/19  at  02:09 PM

I gained a lot of weight when I moved to US. so have a lot of my ex-pat friends. I think growth hormones in meat have a lot to do with American obesity. Also the food culture here glorifies junk food,  and makes food a guilty pleasure, while in France and other Mediterranean countries, food is considered a delight, not a guilt. Good, healthy food is to be celebrated. Not guilt shaming people into eating it “because you are a slob”.

That said, of course obese people exist everywhere and their behavior can - and in most cases - is to blame, at least partly. But the staggering difference of obesity here in US and in other countries has more to it than just people’s individual behavior.

The whole culture - and the obsession with deregulation - also makes things worse than they should here, for individuals that have behavior problems. I can say from personal experience any fat american would weight at least have 20-30 lbs less if they lived elsewhere.

Comment #53: lostmypassword  on  08/19  at  02:16 PM

So when I hear a fat activist deny the link between diet and exercise and weight, I feel like people who are fat and really don’t eat right or exercise are left out of the discussion, and doled out another layer of shame that isn’t helpful to them.

I don’t think I follow how denying a link between diet/exercise and weight loss shames overweight people who eat poorly and don’t exercise.

I don’t deny that you can lose some weight through diet and exercise. What ever study shows, however, is that 95% of the people who do that gain the weight back, which I would say makes diet and exercise a colossal failure as a method.

Comment #54: Egnu Cledge  on  08/19  at  02:17 PM

“Gastric bypass surgeries which cause complications in a HUGE number of the patients are gaining in popularity.”

I have never understood why gastric bypass seems to be the go-to surgery when, if you must opt for surgery, lap bands seem a hell of a lot safer for the patient.

Comment #55: preying mantis  on  08/19  at  02:18 PM

“You’re mixing up frustrating a negative behavior with punishing it.  “

Good point.  However, I believe the effects aren’t completely isolated.  Forcing someone to stand out in the freezing cold and have a smoke frustrates them, but it also stigmatizes the behaviour in the eyes of the rest of society.  It might stop others from taking up the habit by showing that it’s not socially acceptable; that smokers are in very real terms being outcast from the group.  Maybe it requires cold weather to be effective, but seeing people standing outside of a club in February freezing their boobs off trying to get a smoke in can do wonders to get other people to never take up the habit. 

“But we can create frustrate-replace cycles.  We frustrate bad food choices and offer replacements.  We stop subsidizing calorie-heavy but nutrient-low foods and start subsidizing other kinds. “

I wonder how this would work in practice.  I’m trying to imagine it…
You go into a McDonald’s and order a Bacon McGriddle with cheese.
“Sure, you can have that after a 15 minute wait, also you have to correctly solve this algebra proof.”
“Really?”
“Yeah… OR, you can have this fruit salad, RIGHT NOW!”

But seriously, how do you frustrate unhealthy food choices?  You’d have to put every fast food and casual dining chain out of business.  Plus CostCo.  It’d be very difficult to do…

Comment #56: PeterZeroOne  on  08/19  at  02:27 PM

Amanda, most Fat Activists I’m aware of, through Big Fat Blog, Shapely Prose and the like are all about eating healthy and exercising.

I know, that’s why I said, hey we all agree that this should be done.  Now let’s talk about the reality of making that happen.  But I am interested in hearing why they think people should eat right and exercise.  I think it’s because it contributes to lowered rates of heart disease and diabetes, lowered rates of other problems that come with age.  It does also correlate strongly with a lower body weight.  If we all agree on these facts, why do people’s backs get up against a wall?

Not even the medical establishment is immune to the “thin is better” way of thinking.

You’re not responding to what I said.  I pointed out that their mentality about this is wrong.  I just said that we all agree on the above: people need to eat better and exercise.  Everyone.  I know lots of skinny people that eat like shit and don’t exercise. 

According to fat activists, there is mostly agreement here between public health activists, the medical community, and fat activists.  We agree that most Americans have poor health habits.  We agree that it’s got to change.  It seems to me that if most energy was spent on where there’s agreement—-working on the systemic issues that affect everyone’s health and stress levels and self-esteem—-then we’d get much further. 

The main, most compelling issue at hand is that fat shaming is ineffective at improving health outcomes, period. This is true whether or not you believe there’s a strong link between being overweight and behavior.  Fat activists have the same opportunity that AIDS activists had in the early 80s, which is a chance to use a public health issue as a way to destigmatize and demand better health policy, all at once.  Does that make sense?  Shaming gay men about being gay was never going to help stop the spread of HIV.  It actually may have made it worse, because a lot of unprotected, promiscuous sex is the result of pushing back against shame.  (Plus it’s fun.)  The twin goals of destigmatizing and improving health care outcomes work together.  But I don’t see fat activism has quite gotten there yet. 

They’re close!  Don’t get me wrong.  The message about exercise and eating right at any weight is a good one.  The movement towards focusing on structural inequities is really helpful. The realization that shame and individual blaming are counterproductive is insightful. From where I’m sitting, the great things about fat activism are threatened by the focus on trying to refute the link between calorie consumption and weight gain.  Focusing on Oreo cookies reminds me of the focus on bath houses back in the day.  It’s an emotional issue that gets all the focus, but it’s a red herring.  “Play safe” did result in the end of the bath houses, but not because the issue was forced, but because it was a natural outgrowth of other activism.

Does that make sense?

Comment #57: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  02:32 PM

I also wonder how much of anyone’s desire to lose weight is associated with health. I know for myself, that I simply don’t want to be physically unattractive to myself and others. I could care less if my health improved any.

From a health behavior perspective, wanting to look different is not usually a sufficient motivator for people to change their habits.  Wanting to improve your health is usually what motivates people to make real changes and even then, you have to enjoy the healthier habits (e.g., you like the taste of vegetables or your runner’s high) or the feeling they give you (e.g., more energy) in order to stick with them. 

As Amanda noted, if we could have the conversation about health (regardless of a person’s size) and stop shaming people about their weight, we might actually get somewhere.

Comment #58: FashionablyEvil  on  08/19  at  02:35 PM

orcing someone to stand out in the freezing cold and have a smoke frustrates them, but it also stigmatizes the behaviour in the eyes of the rest of society.

True, but I would actually argue that where the smoking bans don’t work is in the fact that smokers perceive themselves as punished.  My experience shows that the more a smoker feels punished, the more protective of their habit they get. 

Ideally, frustration is seamless.  Behavioralists have noticed this—-the less that the person being frustrated notices the frustration, the better.  Take college campuses where walking is the norm.  Most of the people on a campus don’t complain about having to walk a few miles a day, because it’s seamless.  The land is better used for buildings than parking, and they get that.  But if they perceive someone deliberately putting them out, they get grumpy.

Comment #59: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  02:36 PM

You’d have to put every fast food and casual dining chain out of business.

I don’t have a problem with this.

Comment #60: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  02:37 PM

Amanda,

Sorry, I think I was unconsciously linking what you said with someone else’s comments.  Yes, makes more sense. 

I think Fat Activism is working it’s way there.  The problem is that, as said somewhere above, so many Public Health advocates go straight to the shaming and we’ve developed an almost instinctual distrust of the “health establishment” because of it.

And in response to others on the thread, as far as how much of wanting to lose weight is health based for people in reality?  I have actually, honestly, had women at the gym tell me they’d like to lift weights and get stronger, but they’re afraid they’ll get “big” if they do that.  I think that says all you need to know about the health -v- looks argument right there.

Comment #61: GeekGirlsRule  on  08/19  at  02:45 PM

Egnu Cledge, agreed. I have had the most luck giving up on talking about weight entirely and going “assuming I never weigh or tapemeasure myself again, how can I tell that I’m getting healthier?”

For instance, I just started paying attention to getting my resting heart rate down through more heartpounding exercise and trying to substitute some vegetable fats for the dairy fat in my diet. If I start to think about weight, the whole body shame tailspin kicks. If I go “good lord, if I exercise in the morning I feel so much less jumpy at work, this is pretty enjoyable”, then I keep exercising instead of giving up when I’m not suddenly Kiera Knightly.

Comment #62: purpleshoes  on  08/19  at  02:48 PM

But I am interested in hearing why they think people should eat right and exercise.  I think it’s because it contributes to lowered rates of heart disease and diabetes, lowered rates of other problems that come with age.  It does also correlate strongly with a lower body weight.  If we all agree on these facts, why do people’s backs get up against a wall?

Actually we don’t agree on those facts.

Exercise/Eat Less => Less heart disease and diabetes? Yes.

Exercise/Eat Less => Get thin (on a permanent basis)? No.

Comment #63: Egnu Cledge  on  08/19  at  02:50 PM

OR, you can have this fruit salad, RIGHT NOW!

I have never had a catered fruit salad that wasn’t nasty, composed solely of underripe fruit. Canned fruit cocktail (packed in water) would be tastier.

Comment #64: Hector B.  on  08/19  at  03:08 PM

1st, I want to say that I think most people here are really respectful and reflective on the issues at hand—that is so rare for a political blog to achieve when talking about fat acceptance/obesity/public health. I would say, most everyone deserves a cookie, but of course that just underlies our cultural conditioning regarding food smile

Just a couple points:

“Shaming gay men about being gay was never going to help stop the spread of HIV.  It actually may have made it worse, because a lot of unprotected, promiscuous sex is the result of pushing back against shame.  (Plus it’s fun.) The twin goals of destigmatizing and improving health care outcomes work together.  But I don’t see fat activism has quite gotten there yet.”

THAT is such a good point. I think that the analogy could work wonders for FA activitists and public health advocates worth together. The example works so well because you still DO have the homo-phobic anti-sex patriarchs out there and people making AIDS jokes, but those people aren’t for the most part dictating the public health policy (okay, yes, with abstinence only education they are, but not at the public health clinic level where actual nurses/doctors treat HIV infected people or who handout the condoms). With obesity, you’re probably going to still have assholes call non-skinny people fatties or worse, but we need to move the discourse up a bit from the shaming crap to actual public health initiatives, such as subsidizing fruits/veggies and agricultural products such as grass-fed meat over high fructose corn-syrup and cheap soy as feed. We need more public transportation and walking/biking initiatives. At the same time, we need to get the medical establishment on board with public health intiatives and individual wellness plans for patients, NOT SHAME. Can’t walk, then figure out how to help them get into a water aerobics class twice a week and see a nutritionist every two weeks for six months, then twice or four times a year thereafter…don’t put them on phen-phen or recommend gastric right off the bat. Even a Weight Watchers recommendation is a poor recommendation for a doctor to make when they rely so much on processed food and push a diet mentality, which doesn’t work.

It has to be a reasonable marriage between non-shaming, which I think FA should be all about, and public health. Agreed, Amanda, thanks for your insight.

Oh, and: 

“You’d have to put every fast food and casual dining chain out of business.”

I think that this really relates to an earlier post on cooking/Michael Pollan a while back! Where is the burden for cooking from scratch, back to the ladies. I happen to like to cook, so bully for me, but for many its unfair and keeps many women for realizing their interests. Well guess what, the Japanese are great when it comes to health convenience foods—sushi, noodle soups, salads, etc. all made and packaged and located throughout Japanese cities in a convenient and healthy way. Healthy and eating “real food” doesn’t have to mean going back to a pre-industrial, back to the earth approach (though I personally do have a garden and I’m enjoying learning how to preserve, etc. But that’s me and if I were forced by the powers that be to say sew all my clothes in order to be considered healthy, I’d cry because I’m horrible at that and I would look like a fool), so I’m not trying to force anyone to cook from scratch…we can have both, convenience and healthy food!!!

One more thing: of course its a combination of genetic and environmental factors! Why do some people think that it has to be an either or? So weird. We are animals people and our bodies aren’t merely a matter of “destiny” or the Protestant Work-Ethic writ large.

p.s. I have a little blog about the niche between FA Bloggers & Fitness/Food Blogging. Its just a fun hybrid I’m doing with a friend because the whole FA vs Weight-loss crew got on my nerves. Its: http://fatfeministfitnessblog.blogspot.com/

Comment #65: Thealogian  on  08/19  at  03:08 PM

But seriously, how do you frustrate unhealthy food choices?  You’d have to put every fast food and casual dining chain out of business.  Plus CostCo.

Well, Happy Meals did start offering apples instead of fries and milk instead of soda.  A lot of fast food restaurants have started offering salads and other healthier options.  I think part of the problem is that fruit they offer isn’t always good quality.  KFC started offering grilled chicken, which I think tastes even better than the fried.  I don’t kid myself into thinking it’s health food, but it’s still better than the fried chicken and it tastes great.  I don’t see how CostCo is any worse than a grocery store.  It’s the cheapest place for me to buy produce, and it’s as good as the stuff I get anywhere else.

Comment #66: bananacat  on  08/19  at  03:33 PM

“A lot of fast food restaurants have started offering salads and other healthier options.”

Unfortunately, a lot of those salads are even worse than their regular stuff if you use the dressing they come with.

Comment #67: preying mantis  on  08/19  at  03:35 PM

Shame is a non-specific motivator. Often the person beong shamed just seeks to avoid the shamer. Problem solved. Shame also makes people feel worse about themselves. People need to feel good about themselves to to take action concerning a nevative message. This is why shame is a poor motivator; it reduces the rance ofvoptions its object is likely to take.

This is why fear is superior to shame. Fear does not necessarily undermine the sense of self-worth. The three steps to using fear effectively. 1. Be graphic and clear. Scare the shit out of people. 2.But fear can overwhelm and make people withdraw. Build people up. Tell them they are worthy and capable of dealing with the thing they are made afraid of. 3. Suggest a simple course of and establish that this course will be effective. This course of action should also cause them to recieve more fear messages.

There’s no step two to shame. That’s why it doesn’t work. Shame resembles the business plan of the Underpants Gnomes.

Comment #68: Bacopa  on  08/19  at  03:36 PM

And in response to others on the thread, as far as how much of wanting to lose weight is health based for people in reality?

For young people?  Very little.  Young people rarely think about their health.  Once you get into your 30s and your blood pressure starts creeping up and your knees get creaky and you start thinking about how sick your mother and grandmother got with Type II diabetes or arthritis or other health problems that run in your family, you’d be surprised at how motivating your health becomes as a reason to eat right and exercise.  It helps with smoking, too—my father-in-law stopped smoking and started jogging after his sister (who smoked) died of lung cancer in her 30s.  My father smoked for 50 years and was only able to stop because it was a requirement to be put on the list for a kidney transplant.

Comment #69: Mnemosyne  on  08/19  at  03:45 PM

I think that smoking is a slightly different than overeating in that it effects other people beyond just medical costs.  Personally, I’m very allergic to second-hand smoke.  Making people smoke outside isn’t just about discouraging smoke; it’s about protecting others from second-hand smoke.  It’s not just that second-hand smoke is annoying; it can be dangerous.  Of course I’d love it for my own sake if every smoker quit, but I never judge or shame them because I know it’s so difficult.  But unless you light your peanut butter sandwich on fire, eating junk food just doesn’t effect others as directly.

Comment #70: bananacat  on  08/19  at  03:47 PM

I have actually, honestly, had women at the gym tell me they’d like to lift weights and get stronger, but they’re afraid they’ll get “big” if they do that.

They’re nuts.  I don’t belong to a gym, but when I did, I lifted, and I just got smaller.  Women don’t have enough testosterone to bulk up.

Comment #71: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  03:49 PM

If you want to reduce the overall trend of obesity in the country, there are lots of things you can do: tax gas, increase public transportation options, somehow create incentives for dish makers to make shallower bowls and smaller places, taller and skinnier glasses,  a tax ofn restaurant meals to make them more expensive. Create some incentives for restaurants to comply with certain nutritional guidelines in their meals. Have cmopanies provide free standing desks for employees who ask for them. Create incentives for people to own only one car. Encouraging exercise (as in gym workouts) certainly won’t help, because post-workout your body sends signals to increase food consumption.  But doing more walking doesn’t set off this signalling; instead, it seems to suppress appetite.

As an individual? I feel like you kind of have only two options for losing weight: a) be miserable. horribly horribly miserable. b) change your lifestyle or environment dramatically. Losing a car or moving to a walk friendly city helps a lot. Forcing yourself to cook on a budget can help. Moving to another country helps. But all of those are drastic changes that I don’t think anyone should have to undertake.

On a macro scale, there’s lots you can do. On a micro scale, it’s pretty freaking hard…people talk about self control and will power, but to lose weight requires a kind of insane hyper-vigilance in which you never mess up, never treat yourself, and act like a douche with friends by sticking to a diet that contradicts social norms. There are a thousand different signals and messages you encounter in a day that shape your decisions, we’d be better off trying to change all those outside messages than shaming people who are reacting to an environment we’ve created.

Comment #72: t-ster  on  08/19  at  03:51 PM

Exercise/Eat Less => Get thin (on a permanent basis)? No.

Again, you’re focusing on a red herring.  One that could prove fatal to fat activism should the science permanently point away from what you’re saying.  It’s true that dieters fail 95% of the time.  But that could, and from what I can tell, most likely does result from the fact that dieting, being a punishing, depriving behavior, is impossible to maintain for a lifetime with any degree of happiness.  But dieting /= eating right.  Often it’s eating wrong, depriving yourself of essential nutrition.

Comment #73: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  04:05 PM

Mostly I’m just waiting for people to start hating on the smokers.

I hate them.  Hate them.

They’re untidy, they mess up the bottom of the ocean, and they attract all sorts of worms and slimy creepy crawlies.

Comment #74: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/19  at  04:05 PM

But we do agree that this country is too sedentary and too addicted to junk food.  That needs to be the focus of activism, because we’re not even close to fixing those problems.  That’s where everyone agrees, right?

Comment #75: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  04:06 PM

Not sure if this has been covered, but I just wanted to add on the smoking side that about 5 years ago, I had a little exam to get life insurance and was turned down because the pee test found evidence that I was a smoker.  Reality was that I hadn’t had a cigarette in years and even then, I only smoked while drinking, but I had gone to bars in Michigan and been around smokers.

Comment #76: Ursula  on  08/19  at  04:09 PM

Well guess what, the Japanese are great when it comes to health convenience foods—sushi, noodle soups, salads, etc. all made and packaged and located throughout Japanese cities in a convenient and healthy way. Healthy and eating “real food” doesn’t have to mean going back to a pre-industrial, back to the earth approach (though I personally do have a garden and I’m enjoying learning how to preserve, etc. But that’s me and if I were forced by the powers that be to say sew all my clothes in order to be considered healthy, I’d cry because I’m horrible at that and I would look like a fool), so I’m not trying to force anyone to cook from scratch…we can have both, convenience and healthy food!!!

Agreed. There’s a lot of places that are cheap and fast that aren’t “fast food” as we imagine it.  Hell, Austin has a cheap burger-and-fries place called P. Terry’s that is still a lot better, because they use organic meat, which means that a) their portion sizes are much smaller but b) they are tastier, so they don’t lose business. Burger, fries, drink?  $5.  It’s not health food, but the point is that we don’t have to eliminate burger and fries completely.  But we do have to change our agricultural systems so that it’s not good business to sell ever-growing portion sizes of food with low nutritional value outside of calories.

Comment #77: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  04:10 PM

But this sort of punitive attitude assumes something that doesn’t jibe with reality, which is that smokers are doing what they do because they’re proud of themselves for having an unhealthy habit.  The only smokers I’ve known that weren’t eager to quit were the ones who just started, and were still trying to convince themselves that they wouldn’t get addicted.

I do know some smokers who are very proud of it, and have smoked for years.  They’re really heavily wedded to being hip and cool and are convinced that smoking is a part of that.  This blows my mind for a number of different reasons, not the least of which is that probably 90 percent of what makes cigarettes “cool” is completely manufactured by advertising firms.  The other 10 percent can be blamed on the age restriction.  There’s no better way to convince kids to do something stupid than to make it forbidden.

I agree that these people are outliers but they do exist and, if anything, the fact that cigarettes are destroying their health is a feature not a bug.  Remember the Mad Men episode where the researcher suggested cigarettes’ health risks be used as a marketing ploy—that people love living on the edge?  I’m certain that all the remaining die hard smokers have bought into that.

Comment #78: keshmeshi  on  08/19  at  04:11 PM

And in response to others on the thread, as far as how much of wanting to lose weight is health based for people in reality?

I can’t say for the population as a whole, but for me, any desire to lose weight now is motivated by personal appearance, but I’m also petrified of turning out like my father’s side of the family. As they age, they all become chubbier, and also get diabetes. My grandfather died of diabetes-related issues, my eldest aunt, did as well, and half of his siblings have the disease. The only ones who don’t are not overweight. I’ve watched it slowly leach my dad’s memory and weaken him, and it scares the shit out of me.  So as I get older, the fear of getting diabetes has become a powerful motivator to avoid becoming overweight.

Comment #79: t-ster  on  08/19  at  04:11 PM

As an individual? I feel like you kind of have only two options for losing weight: a) be miserable. horribly horribly miserable. b) change your lifestyle or environment dramatically.

The two are not mutually exclusive.  Call it a diet or call it a lifestyle change, but restricting my food intake for the rest of my life will make me horribly miserable either way.  Giving up my car would make me gain weight because the simple act of grocery shopping would become a burden.  Fresh fruit and vegetables are heavy.  I like to buy in bulk when things are on sale, so buying a carry-able amount of produce each day would become more expensive.

But dieting /= eating right.

Plenty of people eat right and don’t lose weight.  It’s a myth that all fat people just gorge on junk food.  We should promote healthy eating for its own sake, and not for the goal of losing weight or being thin.

Comment #80: bananacat  on  08/19  at  04:18 PM

t-ster, I think that the “it must be miserable” mentality isn’t really helpful.  That’s why dieting doesn’t work: It’s promoted as a quick fix solution.  You are miserable for X months, you lose X weight, and then you don’t have to be miserable anymore.  Then you end up back where you started, and are even more miserable.  WTF.  Bad idea. 

But incorporating healthier food and more exercise in daily life isn’t miserable.  It really isn’t.  I’ve made that transition and I love it.  Believe me, I used to be sedentary and eat any old thing, and now I really can’t stand a lot of greasy food and I feel out of sorts if I don’t exercise.  You can change what makes you feel good.

Now, will it lead to weight loss?  I don’t know.  But you will be healthier and you don’t have to be miserable.

Another reason we have the diet problem is that people only think in terms of weight loss.  Which means that skinny people see no reason to be healthy (until they gain a lot of weight and then they get stuck in the yo-yo dieting cycle), and fat people get stuck on the yo-yo dieting cycle.

Comment #81: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  04:19 PM

Unfortunately, a lot of those salads are even worse than their regular stuff if you use the dressing they come with.

Only if you measure how “good” or “bad” something is solely by its fat or calorie content, which is a classic example of the fallacy of most weight-loss dieting.

No matter what dressing you’re putting on it, consuming a salad means consuming a serving (or several servings) of leafy greens. The dressing doesn’t erase the lettuce from existence. The lettuce is good for you.

Comment #82: kristin  on  08/19  at  04:23 PM

Another reason we have the diet problem is that people only think in terms of weight loss.  Which means that skinny people see no reason to be healthy (until they gain a lot of weight and then they get stuck in the yo-yo dieting cycle), and fat people get stuck on the yo-yo dieting cycle

I have great cholestorol levels, because I’m active at least an hour 5+ days a week. One of my best friends is not active and has horrible cholesterol levels (I think there’s some genetics at play here too for the record). He’s very thin, I’m very not. He actually got mad at me when he found out that I had good cholestorol levels and great blood pressure compared to him… because he saw me as “unhealthy” and himself as “healthy” entirely based on weight. That he had to start paying attention to what he was eating and how active he was being actually pissed him off, despite him often giving me (unsolicited) similar advice.

so ya, weight loss != healthy.

Comment #83: kodiak  on  08/19  at  04:33 PM

hmm I edited that and now the first sentence doesn’t make sense… I have great cholestorol levels AND I’m active 5+ days a week… not really because…

Comment #84: kodiak  on  08/19  at  04:34 PM

It took me about two years to find a doctor who would even consider that they might actually be migraines and not just “stress headaches” (whatever those are), and even then they were reluctant to actually prescribe medicine for them. I had more than one doctor tell me that I should just go read a book about headaches and learn how to avoid them.

Oh God, that drives me crazy.  Whenever I go to the doctor to complain of a chronic problem it’s always, ALWAYS the last resort and I’ve tried every preventive measure already.  Just give me a freakin’ pill!

the correspondence between being strong / having a healthy diet / being cardiovascularly fit and being skinny enough for our beauty ideal is largely fictitious.

No kidding.  With the exception of people simply blessed with the right genes, there is no way to be Hollywood thin and healthy and strong.  I’m friends with several female triathletes who pretty much have second jobs exercising and training and they are not remotely “thin.”

Comment #85: keshmeshi  on  08/19  at  04:45 PM

The problem with comparing smoking to eating is (to paraphrase, I think, Overeaters Anonymous), that if you think of your issue (smoking, food) as a tiger, a smoker can stuff the tiger in the cage, toss the key, and walk away, but a person who has issues with food has to take that tiger out a couple of times a day and then try to stuff it back in.  Repeat the next day, and the next, and the next…..

GeekGirlsRule at comment #52 made a good point about doctors not paying attention to anything but weight.  I was told that my migraines would get better if I lost weight; no other tests, no asking about other symptoms, just straight to “all of your problems are caused by fat”.  The fact that my blood work and blood pressure show that I’m perfectly healthy seem to matter far less than the amount of weight I carry on my ass.

Not to get into a gender thing, but I’ve found male doctors to be more ready to play the “fat” card than female doctors, or at least be more up-front about it.  YMMV, of course; that’s just my personal experience.

Comment #86: NobleExperiments  on  08/19  at  04:45 PM

“They’re untidy, they mess up the bottom of the ocean, and they attract all sorts of worms and slimy creepy crawlies.”

Is this a “Waterworld” joke PiaToR?

Comment #87: witless chum  on  08/19  at  04:49 PM

kristin, I thought that was a reference to the taste of the food.  Their salads are barely food at all.

Comment #88: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/19  at  04:52 PM

On a micro scale, it’s pretty freaking hard…people talk about self control and will power, but to lose weight requires a kind of insane hyper-vigilance in which you never mess up, never treat yourself, and act like a douche with friends by sticking to a diet that contradicts social norms.

Well, no, that’s pretty much the exact opposite of what you need to do in order to do a lifestyle change.  In fact, doing all of that absolutely guarantees that you will fail.  That’s why you should be doing things like eating more fruits and vegetables and eating high-fiber foods.

Again, I realize that I am an imaginary person, but that’s not how I lost weight and it’s certainly not how I kept it off.  Are there things I don’t eat anymore?  Yes, but it’s not only because one supersize Drumstick is over 400 calories.  It’s also because having that much fat in one sitting now does a number on my digestive system that means I’m in the bathroom for the rest of the day.  Once your system gets used to having better food, it wants better food.

Also, is anyone here aware that it’s extremely common for overweight people to be undereating for their actual caloric needs?  If your body needs 2,500 calories a day to function and you’re only giving it 1,200, your body may well decide you’re in the middle of a famine and hold onto every ounce of fat you have so you can survive it.  But we’ve had “eat less, exercise more” so drilled into our heads that everyone thinks you have to eat less to lose weight and that’s actually not true for everyone.

Comment #89: Mnemosyne  on  08/19  at  04:53 PM

Peter:Here’s how it would work. You could go into a fast food place, and get a good fruit cup or salad or something for a buck 49 or get a combo with some fruit juice or water with a healthy side for 5 or so, or you could order the hamburger, have to wait for it to be cooked and pay 8 or 9 dollars for it.

The real problem is making the salads/healthy choices as both filling and economical as the current unhealthy choices.

Comment #90: Karmakin  on  08/19  at  04:56 PM

catgirl, I agree that changing our lifestyle can make you miserable, depending on the lifestyle change you enact. I used to bike with a backpack full of food for a house of 8 people. I fucking hated it; i don’t care if it made me “healthier.” I know I’d be healthier/lose weight if I cooked every single item I ate. But I don’t do it cause it’s an unrealistic change. But dieting in the traditional “deprivation” sense really will make you miserable. I think the options are either a) diet, ensuring misery b) change your lifestyle, hopefully not in ways that make you miserable.

Amanda, while I agree that people shouldn’t be miserable (ergo, shouldn’t diet), incorporating healthier foods and a more active lifestyle makes some people feel better, but doesn’t guarantee weight loss. The truth is that if someone is bound and determined to lose X amount of weight by X time, dieting is the most reliable (and miserable method). The real problem is that we should be shifting the focus to living healthier, not being a certain weight.

Comment #91: t-ster  on  08/19  at  05:02 PM

That’s why you should be doing things like eating more fruits and vegetables and eating high-fiber foods.

That just doesn’t work for most people.  It’s great that it worked for you, but that simply doesn’t make most people lose weight.  All these things that seem like common sense just don’t work as well as it seems they should.  The problem is that it really does not take a lot of extra food to become moderately overweight.

Comment #92: bananacat  on  08/19  at  05:09 PM

Mnemosyne, I think you misunderstood me. I was trying to point out the difficulty of using the conventional notion of dieting in order to lose weight, and why it so often fails.  I.e., in order for normal dieting to work long-term, you really do have to stick to it and be consistent and hyper-vigilant. But no humans can really do that. (or very few).

Which is why dieting almost never works for people—because humans aren’t built to do that.

Comment #93: t-ster  on  08/19  at  05:15 PM

But dieting in the traditional “deprivation” sense really will make you miserable. I think the options are either a) diet, ensuring misery b) change your lifestyle, hopefully not in ways that make you miserable.

There is simply no way to lose weight without reducing your caloric intake to a level that is lower than what you burn.  Any “lifestyle change” that makes you lose weight will require a restriction of food intake.

Comment #94: bananacat  on  08/19  at  05:16 PM

The problem is that it really does not take a lot of extra food to become moderately overweight.

Totally agree.
The common sense things, I think, work for people who are already of their desired weight and want to remain at that weight.

Comment #95: t-ster  on  08/19  at  05:17 PM

catgirl, not all lifestyle changes that make you lose weight will require a conscious reduction in food intake. i lost 10 lbs without meaning to because I had to walk to work. And thought I probably ate less, I didn’t notice it somehow. (I also think it helped that I moved , going from having colleagues that ate out all the time to having friends who ate at their desks.) I think that they’ve shown in studies that low grade activities like walking suppress appetite.  The combination of very very slightly increasing caloric expenditure while very very slightly reducing caloric intake can be effective if you want to slowly slowly burn off the weight (say, a pound or two a year). Your body doesn’t notice a deficit of 50 calories a day, is what I’ve heard.

Anyways, the point being that yes, reducing caloric intake is the only way to weight, but there are ways to reduce caloric intake/increase expenditure that don’t have to feel like punishment.

Comment #96: t-ster  on  08/19  at  05:24 PM

t-ster;

Encouraging exercise (as in gym workouts) certainly won’t help, because post-workout your body sends signals to increase food consumption.

If you’re thinking in terms of improving your body composition, rather than the number of pounds you weigh or some ratio involving that and your height, this looks very different. That food is going to rebuild your muscles, stronger than they were before worked out. That’s a good thing.

As an individual? I feel like you kind of have only two options for losing weight: a) be miserable. horribly horribly miserable. b) change your lifestyle or environment dramatically. Losing a car or moving to a walk friendly city helps a lot. Forcing yourself to cook on a budget can help. Moving to another country helps. But all of those are drastic changes that I don’t think anyone should have to undertake.

There’s an awful lot of very bad information about diet out there, some of it promoted by the government. Partly, I think, because there’s an urge to make fat people suffer, but mostly because gross simplifications are easier to communicate than the much more complicated realities and people have a hard time shaking the idea that something is “bad”, especially if it’s pleasurable. Specifically, the calories-in/calories-out model is the simplification, and the idea that “fatty food” is unhealthy is simply wrong, but appeals to a certain urge to moralize because fat and fiber are the triggers for feeling of satiety. Increasing them can do a lot to cut total calories. But total calories has less to do with body composition than the amount, timing, and kind of carbohydrates in your diet. No, carbs aren’t any more evil than fat is, but if you’re a typical American you eat too much of it, and too many simple carbs like sugar and starch, and not enough complex high-fiber carbs. Eating your carbs in the morning rather than the evening is also a good idea, because then they get burned off fueling your activities during the day.

On a macro scale, there’s lots you can do. On a micro scale, it’s pretty freaking hard…people talk about self control and will power, but to lose weight requires a kind of insane hyper-vigilance in which you never mess up, never treat yourself, and act like a douche with friends by sticking to a diet that contradicts social norms.

This is very wrong. It’s not a set of rules where if you break one once you have to be punished. It’s a pattern of inputs that interact with your body chemistry a certain way; amounts matter, frequency matters, timing matters. Except for certain toxins, everything you can put in your body is a question of dosage. Too much water can kill you.

Comment #97: ScaryIntolerantFundy  on  08/19  at  05:40 PM

I don’t mean to personally derail this thread, but everyone’s talking about eating better foods and exercising like it ISN’T miserable.  American’s have a very starchy and sugary palate.  Going from lots of potatoes and lots of sugar to leafy vegies and rice cakes is going to make you go through withdrawls and make you feel hungry all the time.  Exercising, particularly if you don’t like feeling sweaty, and don’t like people staring at you like you’re a freak, and hate the feeling of your pulse and heavy breathing is not fun. 

So yeah, we should as a matter of public policy make it so people exercise more and eat right, for health’s sake and not for weight loss sake.  But, don’t act like this is fun.  Eating right and exercising for a lot of people SUCKS.  It taste terrible, and you will feel miserable.

Comment #98: Antigone  on  08/19  at  05:41 PM

That just doesn’t work for most people.  It’s great that it worked for you, but that simply doesn’t make most people lose weight.

That’s not what helped me lose weight.  What helped me lose weight was keeping a food diary.  Not obsessively counting every microcalorie, but keeping track of what I eat and noticing things like I was having “just one” cookie three times a day and not remembering.

But, again, I’m an imaginary person who didn’t actually do any of this, so no one should ever even consider keeping a food diary and getting a look at what they actually eat during the day and not what they thought they ate, because there’s no possible way it could ever work for anyone ever.

And I’ll say this even though I know I’ll be accused of saying the exact opposite:  I am not saying that anyone can easily lose weight.  I’m not even saying that I easily lost weight—it took me 18 months to lose 30 pounds.  There are a lot of limiting factors (physical, psychological, family issues) that may mean that you, personally, will not be able to lose weight. 

What I am saying, though, is that the myth that no one can lose weight, ever, is just as damaging as the myth that everyone can lose weight if they just try hard enough.  Some people can, some people can’t, and we really have to get away from telling people both that they’re morons if they can’t lose weight and that they’re absolutely doomed to regain if they do.

Comment #99: Mnemosyne  on  08/19  at  05:59 PM

If 95% of the people who try to lose weight fail, or do but then gain it back plus a little more, can’t we realisticly say that, yeah, pretty much no one can lose weight? I’m happy for you. Maybe you have a better plan than what’s usually offered, but you are still on the extremely remote end of the spectrum of what most people can expect in their own lives.

Comment #100: Egnu Cledge  on  08/19  at  06:09 PM

Antigone;

Very true, but for most people both of those can change. Withdrawal goes away eventually. The use of physical power becomes fun once you shake off your awareness of how bad you are at it, which you do by getting better.

Comment #101: ScaryIntolerantFundy  on  08/19  at  06:25 PM

I thought that was a reference to the taste of the food.  Their salads are barely food at all.

Oh! True that. I was even thinking, as I typed my comment, about how the things found in McDonald’s salad usually can only be described as “leafy greens” by a stretch. And yes, the dressing is disgusting.

Comment #102: kristin  on  08/19  at  06:25 PM

Mnemosyne:  Food diaries are not advisable for anyone recovering from an eating disorder (as many fat people are, believe it or not).  And no one here has called you imaginary.  We’ve said you’re a statistical outlier, yes, but not imaginary. 

As I said before, it’s entirely possible that your depression and inactivity due to it, along with the comfort eating that comes along with fugues conspired to push your weight above what it would usually sit at.  You fixed the situation, your body’s back to it’s happy state.

What we need to do is teach people that, contrary to what Antigone says, eating healthy is not yucky, and exercise doesn’t have to be icky calisthenics or weightlifting.  If you don’t like jogging, walk, if you don’t like walking, bike, if you don’t like those, swim, do water aerobics, fly kites, play with dogs, play golf, play tennis, do yoga, bellydance, hell… dance any way you want.  I think a lot of the problem comes in when people view eating healthy as sprouts and tofu (not that anything’s wrong with those) and exercise as sweating away on a treadmill in a steamy gym, not any number of pleasurable activities.

Comment #103: GeekGirlsRule  on  08/19  at  06:27 PM

“They’re untidy, they mess up the bottom of the ocean, and they attract all sorts of worms and slimy creepy crawlies.”

Is this a “Waterworld” joke PiaToR?

See here.

I’m not weighing in on the fat issue because I don’t think I can extrapolate from my own experience.  I’ve lost a hell of a lot of weight through Weight Watchers - changing my food habits to better food, getting regular exercise and the like, but now I’m stuck on a plateau.  This is *probably* because of backsliding in the habits and I need to work at it.  Winter doesn’t help.

So, yes, I’ll never be thin.  Yes, some people - a lot of people - are preset to be fatter than “normal”.  yes, fat does not necessarily correlate with unhealthy.

But WW can work, and has worked for me to an extent - in that being aware of what you are eating, making conscious choices and getting into a routine of exercise will probably help you lose *some* weight.  It may not make you into the socially mandated shape, but I’m a lot better than I was.

I’m not going to blame people for being fat or finding changing the habits difficult.  I’m not supporting dieting. I do suspect that there is an element of seeking excuses when people say that things like WW can’t work - education and paying attention to your food choices, group support, and encouragement to increase your activity level should help most people lose *some* weight.

IMHO.

Comment #104: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/19  at  06:29 PM

The smoker/fattie correlation some folks make irks me. Amanda didn’t argue that smokers/fatties situation is the same when it comes to stopping smoking/not being fat, but many do. But here’s the thing:

IT can be very, very difficult, but you can stop smoking. It will even improve your health to do so.

Good luck with your campaign to stop eating.

(If only we had known it was possible to live on air and will power. No food more shall pass these lips.)

Comment #105: wondering  on  08/19  at  06:40 PM

If 95% of the people who try to lose weight fail, or do but then gain it back plus a little more, can’t we realisticly say that, yeah, pretty much no one can lose weight?

I think a lot of that is plain ignorance, with people starving themselves, going on crash diets, overexercising, not having a clue what they’re doing and getting frustrated and quitting when their weight plateaus, and gaining all the weight back because they’ve fucked up their metabolisms and spooked the living shit out of their bodies. I do think if more people understood that starving and dieting really don’t work, the success rate would probably be higher, if not anywhere close to 100%.

I do realize healthy eating and exercise aren’t going to bring everyone’s weight to a culturally-accepted level. I think it’s beyond criminal how many 14-year-olds are wasting away eating 500 calories a day. I’ve lost a hell of a lot of weight doing exactly what Mnemosyne did, and I don’t know how long I’ll be able to keep it off, but I realize that having a BMI just under 25 is still considered fat to a lot of people, no matter how satisfied my body is to stay at that weight. I can’t help thinking part of the problem is normal, healthy people believing they’re fat and pushing their bodies to lose weight they can’t actually afford to lose, which will definitely backfire.

Comment #106: junk science  on  08/19  at  06:40 PM

But I am interested in hearing why they think people should eat right and exercise.  I think it’s because it contributes to lowered rates of heart disease and diabetes, lowered rates of other problems that come with age.  It does also correlate strongly with a lower body weight.  If we all agree on these facts, why do people’s backs get up against a wall?

Because, ever so strangely enough, obesity and body image plugs directly into most people’s neuroses, generating vast amounts of shame, guilt, defensiveness and anger.

Comment #107: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/19  at  06:41 PM

But, don’t act like this is fun.  Eating right and exercising for a lot of people SUCKS.  It taste terrible, and you will feel miserable.

Not really. Some people do, but that doesn’t mean everyone will. I’m a lot happier this way, and I don’t see what’s gained by telling me I’m not.

Comment #108: junk science  on  08/19  at  06:43 PM

If 95% of the people who try to lose weight fail, or do but then gain it back plus a little more, can’t we realisticly say that, yeah, pretty much no one can lose weight?

Do you have a more recent study than the one from 30 years ago that everyone quotes?  Because that’s where that 95 percent number always seems to come from.  I’d also be curious to see the actual study—did those 95 percent regain all of the weight they lost, or did any re-gain count as a failure for the purposes of the study?

I lost 32 pounds.  Then I fell off a stepladder, tore my ACL, and had to have surgery to fix it.  I re-gained 12 pounds.  Am I proof that diets don’t work because I regained?  Or did my lifestyle change (which is what I actually did instead of dieting) prevent me from re-gaining all of the weight I originally lost?  By your statistic, I’m a total and complete failure and should give up on even thinking about getting back to my goal weight, because if I can’t keep the weight off while I’m immobilized and on crutches, it’s impossible to keep weight off.

Again:  I am not saying that everyone can lose weight and keep it off.  If we have naturally thin people at the far end of the spectrum, science dictates that we also have naturally fat people at the other end.  There are also physical conditions that can cause weight gain that many doctors don’t bother to check because they’re so convinced that the problem is that the patient is fat, not that the patient has an underperforming thyroid that needs medication.

Comment #109: Mnemosyne  on  08/19  at  06:51 PM

When I was diagnosed with a gluten allergy, I started to have to pretty much make all of my own foods.

I didn’t recreate my old diet of highly processed items, I created a new diet of easier to cook stuff.

I lost 20 lbs. in a couple of months, despite decreased activity due to an unrelated issue.  I am convinced Americans simply do not know how unbelievably awful their diets are.  I certainly didn’t, and I’m a pretty bright and engaged fellow.

Comment #110: Punditus Maximus  on  08/19  at  06:58 PM

Mnemosyne:  Food diaries are not advisable for anyone recovering from an eating disorder (as many fat people are, believe it or not).

Given that the most prevalent eating disorder is binge eating (almost twice as common as anorexia and bulimia combined), no, I’d never say that fat people can’t have eating disorders.  Frankly, I suspect there are a lot of fat anorexics out there whose biology just won’t let them lose to the weight that’s considered clinically necessary for the diagnosis.  So, yes, you’re right, a food diary is not for everyone, particularly if you have any addictive or OCD tendencies.

And no one here has called you imaginary.  We’ve said you’re a statistical outlier, yes, but not imaginary.

I’m constantly told that my experience and the experience of people close to me, including my husband’s, don’t count because they don’t conform with what people believe about weight loss.  If I’m not being called imaginary, I’m being called a liar. 

As I said before, it’s entirely possible that your depression and inactivity due to it, along with the comfort eating that comes along with fugues conspired to push your weight above what it would usually sit at.  You fixed the situation, your body’s back to it’s happy state.

Almost, but not quite.  Right now, because of my knee injury and, frankly, my laziness, I’m at the weight I’m at when I eat normal amounts of crappy food (as opposed to the large amounts I was eating when depressed) and don’t exercise.  For me, my “happy weight” is the one I’m at when I’m eating healthy and exercising.

(And just so no one gets worried:  my “happy weight” is 130 pounds at 5’2” tall.  I may be short, but my ancestresses herded sheep through the mountains while carrying water on their back, so I’m never going to be Kiera Knightley thin short of getting cancer.  Very sick of people who make stupid pronouncements like claiming I “should” be 100 pounds because I’m short with no regard for frame size or body type.  Idiots.)

Comment #111: Mnemosyne  on  08/19  at  07:12 PM

purpleshoes said:

I have a large, scottish-type build (I can actually carry a five-gallon water bottle on my shoulder, if that gives you any idea.

Me, too! 5’ 8-1/2” tall, broad shoulders, monkey arms.

Back when I worked in a scene shop I could carry quite easily two sheets of 3/4” plywood - in one hand, with the sheets resting against my shoulder. That’s ~145 pounds. And about 15-20 pounds more than I weighed at the time.

I’m not quite so strong now although I am filling out my Scottish physique with beer, but height still = leverage.

Comment #112: teac  on  08/19  at  08:14 PM

But there has been far less discussion about how the rest of us might also change our behavior. It’s as if we have little responsibility for our own health. We instead outsource it to something called the health care system.

I’ve never understood this and it seems to be a recurring theme in health insurance discussions. Who thinks, “Hot damn! I’ve got health insurance now! Let me just jump off this roof, eat several dozen Big Macs, stick my hand in this fire, and engage in unprotected sex because someone else will foot the bill!!”?

Comment #113: brista  on  08/19  at  08:30 PM

With the XP bug concerning copying and pasting, I find that a way around that is to triple click on the paragraph you want to copy.  If there is more than one paragraph that needs copying, you will need to select and paste them one by one.

Comment #114: scratchy888  on  08/19  at  10:09 PM

On an unrelated note, is anyone else experiencing problems when cutting and pasting within Pandagon? If I try to highlight a portion of text, my computer freaks out, and either highlights everything on the page, or just jumps out of the post. It just started about a week ago, and it’s not happening on any other site.

I have something that might help. First, definitely try updating your browser to its latest version like preying mantis suggested. If that doesn’t do it, use Firefox and install the add-on “NoScript” from
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/722

This will let you selectively activate and deactivate JavaScript on websites you visit. Instructions are here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKW5SMvMKtY

For the duration while Pandagon.net is giving you trouble, you can disallow scripts here and that should fix your problem. If it doesn’t, then I’m sorry for the goose chase.

Comment #115: asdf  on  08/19  at  10:22 PM

It is possible to lose weight by exercise and change in diet. My motivation to lose weight gained during college was to feel better, not to look better. I didn’t give a rat’s ass about fitting some beauty standard, I just felt a bit bloated and a bit slower at the higher weight. You can look sharp at any weight short of 500#, and you deserve the effort to look sharp at whatever weight you are at the time. I wanted to eat a rounded diet, get my vitamins, roughage, protein, and non-processed sugars (ie, fruit), and figure out how to make quick simple meals. I also didn’t want to obsess about diet and exercise - I was interested in other things - I just needed to learn a few basic life skills after a youth having mother or cafeteria cook for me.

I lost 60 pounds (180 to 120 #) over two and a half years, by the simple method of cutting way down on processed sugar and added fat, eating as much simple food as I liked, and enjoying strolls and using stairs for 1 to 3 flights (no formal “exercise”). I didn’t totally cut out ice cream, cookies, high-fat cheese, but I did cut back considerably both in quantity consumed per occasion and in frequency of consumption, and I didn’t feel “deprived” after a short adjustment period. I displaced “eating because restless” onto “drinking non-sweetened/non-cream tea when restless”. I returned to a naturally low set point (BMI 20). Someone else might have a natural set point of BMI 30, but they still ought to be able to go from BMI 40 to 30, given plenty of time and a permanent change in habits. If nature intends you to be BMI 30, then eat healthy balanced food, get a little exercise or physical activity, be stylish, feel good, and enjoy yourself at your healthy BMI 30 - and ignore all the nosey parkers who want you to be BMI 18.

Comment #116: NancyP  on  08/19  at  11:05 PM

catgirl and other people contemplating shopping on foot -
1. folding laundry hamper on two wheels.
2. backpack
3. “little red wagon” or other towable 3 or 4 wheeled cart

on bike:
1. really big panniers
2. tow-behind cart

None of these options, aside from the backpack, are great for bus or train commuters. If you have 6 kids and keep a chest freezer full, you pretty much have to have access to a car to keep your sanity.

Comment #117: NancyP  on  08/19  at  11:17 PM

To circle back to Amanda’s point, the thing that drives me nuts about the “it’s impossible to lose weight” meme is that, given the way our society and cities are structured, there’s absolutely no way to actually know what your natural setpoint would be.  All you can say is what your setpoint is given the restrictions of living here.  There has been some success in getting people to lose weight by going back to their native diet (Hawaiian in this case), but even that was tough going because our society is just not set up to make it easy to eat that way anymore. 

I’ll be more than happy to go along with saying that the structural and cultural issues in American society make it virtually impossible to lose weight, and then the culture punishes you for not fighting it hard enough.  I really can’t go along with claims that losing weight is impossible for everyone everywhere.  It starts to sound like evo psych to me and, frankly, I think it’s counterproductive because it basically says that there’s no point in changing the way our cities are laid out or making consumers more aware of what they’re eating or making it easier to exercise because, hey, everyone’s at the weight they naturally should be so there’s no need to make any societal or cultural changes.

It especially annoys me because we’re starting to see studies like this one of girls in Harlem where overweight girls had the highest levels of phthalates in their bodies.  That’s right—it looks like environmental pollutants are making them fat.  But, hey, who’s to say those girls wouldn’t be naturally fat anyway because of biology, so let’s not even look into possible environmental causes of overweight.

Comment #118: Mnemosyne  on  08/20  at  01:03 AM

It especially annoys me because we’re starting to see studies like this one of girls in Harlem where overweight girls had the highest levels of phthalates in their bodies.  That’s right—it looks like environmental pollutants are making them fat.

Either that or, as I would suspect was more likely, phthalates concentrate in fat tissues instead of being excreted out of the body, and you’re reversing cause and effect.  But I don’t have any info to say you’re wrong and I’m right other than my one-small-step-from-uninformed opinion, so feel free to correct me.

Comment #119: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/20  at  01:54 AM

Either that or, as I would suspect was more likely, phthalates concentrate in fat tissues instead of being excreted out of the body, and you’re reversing cause and effect.

Yes, it’s too bad I didn’t link to the study so you could check for yourself.

Comment #120: Mnemosyne  on  08/20  at  02:01 AM

American’s have a very starchy and sugary palate.  Going from lots of potatoes and lots of sugar to leafy vegies and rice cakes is going to make you go through withdrawls and make you feel hungry all the time.

Wonder how much of that is the widespread notion in US pop culture that leafy veggies and rice cakes aren’t cool and are for the DFHs….not “real Americans”? I also find that many fellow Americans I know have a strong liking for steak/beef and potatoes in large portions, veggies of seemingly any type, and a strong aversion to any form of seafood and whole grain bread.

Comment #121: exholt  on  08/20  at  04:18 AM

oops….meant to say a strong aversion of veggies of seemingly any type…

Comment #122: exholt  on  08/20  at  04:20 AM

Mnemosyne, this is so frustrating.

Is “being fat” the worst reason to have a body full of pthalates? Oh god no. Nor is it the worst reason to live in an environment that’s hostile to physical activity or to have a diet that is convenience store crap. Are these things predictive of who might be fat? Apparently so. If you make an individual effort to change these things for yourself, will you be skinny? Well, I don’t know how you can remediate the pthalate situation yourself, and as for the other two, you will live longer, but you will probably not get thin.

Accepting that you, living your adult life without either time traveling to reduce your childhood PCB and cheeto exposure nor moving to France can do many things to get healthier and none of them have failed if you are now a fat person who eats a healthy diet and exercises instead of magically becoming a skinny person is the basic trick of fat acceptance. However, a fat activist (which I am not, being medium and also laconic) might also argue that everything you’ve listed is a major quality of life issue, and in the case of pollution in East Harlem, something of a human rights abuse, and if the only way we can motivate ourselves to care that children are consuming chemicals that lead to significant cognitive impairment and all kinds of systemic issues is because one of the symptoms is that they get chubby, well, that’s weird priorities. Not that it’s not medically useful to note that that’s a symptom, just that it’s weird that that we need an “obesity crisis” to care that we’re, you know, poisoning small children.

Comment #123: purpleshoes  on  08/20  at  09:09 AM

Though I am charmed that your sensible target weight is what I spent my American-teenager-style hungry days trying to weigh and I’m half a foot taller than you. I constantly failed, mind, because an American teenager who watches a lot of sitcoms really has no idea what a healthy weight is. Also, I think for people with no history of an eating disorder who don’t go into a shame spiral around their food issues, a food diary sounds like one of several perfectly reasonable mindfulness techniques. I actually use Nutrition Data for a week a couple of times a year to check on my vitamins and minerals and remind myself that this is why I keep trying to find recipes that make me not hate greens.

Also, rereading your comments, I think we’re actually making the same argument in slightly different ways.

Comment #124: purpleshoes  on  08/20  at  09:19 AM

Yes, it’s too bad I didn’t link to the study so you could check for yourself.

Looked at the link, couldn’t see the bit you were talking about.

Comment #125: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/20  at  12:28 PM

However, a fat activist (which I am not, being medium and also laconic) might also argue that everything you’ve listed is a major quality of life issue, and in the case of pollution in East Harlem, something of a human rights abuse, and if the only way we can motivate ourselves to care that children are consuming chemicals that lead to significant cognitive impairment and all kinds of systemic issues is because one of the symptoms is that they get chubby, well, that’s weird priorities.

I think we are making the same argument from slightly different angles, because I’m not saying that we should only be paying attention to environmental toxins when they affect our appearance.  But I have had fat activists get enraged with me when I so much as hinted as maybe, just maybe, there might be some outside reasons why they are the weight they are and maybe we need to make some changes to the way our culture and society operate.  Apparently the fact that restaurant portion sizes have exploded in the past 20 years has had absolutely no effect on the weight of the average American and it’s a total coincidence that average weight started creeping up at the same time portion sizes did.

It’s really hard to have a conversation about building a healthier society when one group claims it’s the individual’s responsibility to exercise more, not the city’s responsibility to make it easier to walk or bike and another group claims that weight, food intake and exercise have no points in common so making it easier for people to walk or bike is useless anyway because everyone is going to be the weight they are right now, world without end.

Comment #126: Mnemosyne  on  08/20  at  02:57 PM

Looked at the link, couldn’t see the bit you were talking about.

Geez, I’ve got to spoon-feed you little brats!
(imaginary internet cigar for anyone who can identify where that line comes from)

Project 3:  Genetics of Phthalate and Bisphenol A Risk In Minority Populations

Comment #127: Mnemosyne  on  08/20  at  03:01 PM

Mnemosyne, possibly we are also talking to different fat activists, because there are five million reasons to make towns and cities more walkable and bikeable that have nothing to do with girth and everything to do with quality of life for everyone living there regardless of girth. What about air pollution? Respiratory heath? Cardiovascular health? Beauty? Enjoyment? Community? Lively shopping and restaurant districts? Carbon credits? The general fact that almost everyone is saner after a brisk walk than after an hour in traffic?

If you can find a fat activist - or anyone - arguing that we should give up on any chance of living in a human-scale, enjoyable environment instead of a hellish strip mall with no sidewalks or trees merely because walking to the corner store won’t make you skinny, then that person has a very narrow understanding of the world. (If it takes an obesity scare to manipulate the DOT into building sidewalks, I - guess I’ll take it, because they’re the DOT).

The portion sizes thing baffles me, though I think it has a lot to do with our food-as-fuel, more-for-less culture and our agricultural policies. I hear in France you can afford to eat nice cheese at every meal if you want to.

Comment #128: purpleshoes  on  08/20  at  04:00 PM

Geez, I’ve got to spoon-feed you little brats!
(imaginary internet cigar for anyone who can identify where that line comes from)
Project 3:  Genetics of Phthalate and Bisphenol A Risk In Minority Populations

Sorry, dear - looked at the abstract, still can’t see your point.  I’m not trying to piss you off; can you spoonfeed me a little more?

Or email it to PhoenicianRomans at gmail dot com

Comment #129: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/20  at  06:04 PM

The portion sizes thing baffles me, though I think it has a lot to do with our food-as-fuel, more-for-less culture and our agricultural policies.

There’s a really interesting book called Mindless Eating: Why We Eat More Than We Think that talks about the marketing tricks companies use to encourage people to overeat.  It makes it even more clear that it’s not just about individual responsibility or individual genetics—these companies are manipulating us for their own gain.  Talking about how companies are basically using our subconscious against us to eat more isn’t an indictment of an individual person falling for the manipulation, and I really wish people could take a step back and see that.  Even if you are completely, 100 percent convinced that your weight is completely genetic, wouldn’t you still want to know how corporations are manipulating you to buy and eat more of their product?

Comment #130: Mnemosyne  on  08/20  at  09:09 PM

Another factor influencing obesity is social networks—that is, having fat friends makes you more likely to be fat.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=supersize-me-and-all-my-friends

And yes, the study does separate out geography and the direction of causation. Merely being neighbors with someone does not make a person more likely to be fat, but being friends, even at a distance, does. If only one of two people considers the pair to be friends, then the effect only went in that direction.

I agree that individual responsibility rhetoric is counterproductive, but individual behaviors do matter, and public policy can target individual behaviors.

Comment #131: bh  on  08/20  at  09:43 PM

bh-

Yep, so make sure you’re not friends with fatties, or else you’re going to get fat too *rolls eyes*. 

To whomever it was above: some people never will enjoy exercise, even after they do it later.

Comment #132: Antigone  on  08/22  at  01:41 AM

“I also wonder how much of anyone’s desire to lose weight is associated with health. I know for myself, that I simply don’t want to be physically unattractive to myself and others. I could care less if my health improved any. I’d happily trade five years off my life for fifty less pounds of fat on my body.”

“The fixation on weight weight weight to the exclusion of everything else is worse than useless when it comes to good health outcomes. It is likely to be actively detrimental to people’s health and to their attitude toward healthy living habits. Eating a balanced diet and getting sufficient exercise will improve anyone’s health whether or not it also causes them to lose weight, but someone who doesn’t lose any weight as a result of such habits (and not everyone will) may well conclude that it’s not working and either give up (“If I’m going to be fat and sick anyway, I might as well enjoy myself.”) or go on a dangerously restrictive diet. If they had been encouraged to eat right and exercise for its own sake instead of as a path to that Holy Grail known as weight loss, they would be more likely to keep at it and enjoy the health benefits regardless of their body size.”

Funny enough, I just barely wrote about this: http://closetpuritan.livejournal.com/15482.html
Anyway, yes, some people do want to lose weight for health, but I completely agree that most people want to lose weight primarily or only for their physical appearance, especially women and girls, and are often willing to do very unhealthy things to get there. And the flip side of this is that people think that if exercise/healthy diet is not helping them lose weight, or if they are skinny without eating properly, then there’s no reason for them to exercise or eat anything but junk food.

Comment #133: closetpuritan  on  08/23  at  12:36 PM
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