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Next entry: The Secret To Great Secondary Education Previous entry: We Only Have Two Choices

Inexcusable waffling continues

I cannot sign off on this piece enough:

Liberals have a tendency (much more pronounced in 2007 and 2008 but still evident) to imagine that Barack Obama is just as liberal as them. Because he's obviously smart, because he dabbled with genuine leftism in his youth, and because he opposed Iraq, liberals think he's actually Paul Krugman, forced by electoral circumstance (or cowardice) to talk and govern like George H.W. Bush. Coincidentally, this is also Newt Gingrich and Stanley Kurtz's thesis. It's silly when they say he's hiding his socialism behind a veneer of centrism and it's silly when liberals say he's doing the same.

But on one issue it's pretty obvious that Barack Obama is simply hiding his dangerous radicalism: same-sex marriage. He famously signed a questionnaire affirming his support for same-sex marriage in 1996. But he apparently thought that he couldn't remain so liberal if he wanted to be a national political figure. By 2008 he opposed gay marriage, favoring the more reasonable-sounding civil unions instead. He did still oppose DOMA, though, and he plainly understood why gay couples need legal recognition.

The only thing that Alex is missing is that there's another liberal tendency that is probably just as irritating: being addicted to feeling betrayed to the point of concocting conspiracy theories that posit that all Democratic leaders are secretly Republicans.  It's black-and-white thinking, for sure, but it's widespread.  These liberals will seek any evidence they can find that Democrat X is exactly like the most far right nutter out there, even though the evidence tends to suggest that said Democrat is a fence-straddling centrist who is too afraid of his shadow to ever commit to a point of view, which is completely unlike far right Republican assholes.  While the vast majority of people I spoke to at Netroots had a nuanced view of Obama, I did run across in the past few days, online and offline, people who were pushing the "Obama is a member of the religous right" line.  For instance, knowledge that Obama's administration---like Clinton's before it---had put a minor amount of funding into some abstinence-only programs was rolled up into being the same thing as Bush mandating that all schools teach nothing but abstinence, unless they get their federal sex education dollars revoked.  (This was after the zombie abstinence-only was brought up on a panel, so I can somewhat see why it's confusing, but still.)  And, to my dismay and surprise, a Facebook friend insisted that there was no difference between Michele Bachmann's point of view on gay marriage and Obama's view. The method used to determine this was to find the most reasonable-sounding thing Bachmann has said (her garbled and clearly facetious claim during the GOP debate that she wants to leave it to the states---which also requires ignoring that she wants a constitutional ban at the same time) and then to round up Obama's weaseling statements while ignoring his actual opposition to DOMA and his appointment of Supreme Court judges who are likely to vote against it.

I can't actually believe that people believe this stuff when they say it.  I think there's an emotional reward to claiming that Obama hates the gays just as much as Bachmann, because it makes things nice and simple.  Plus, enough time has passed that we've forgotten how much damage a Ralph Nader situation can do.  I'm as unhappy as everyone with the fact that Democrats are cowards, but I still remember the Bush years, and pretending that Democrats are the exact same thing as Republicans didn't do us any favors then.  And Republicans are even more radical now.  Pretending Bush and Gore were the same is why we're in two wars and there's a solid chance that Roe v Wade is going to be overturned.  Oh yeah, and if Gore had been elected and had all those Supreme Court appointments that Bush ended up getting?  The gay rights movement would be fully empowered right now to challenge gay marriage bans in the high court with assurance that they would win. 

This is where I blame Obama and all Democrats like him: Look, when you clearly agree with left on an issue, you have a real chance to kneecap the people who are eager to claim you're a closet Republican by coming out firmly on the side of the left. Obama allows the paranoids to claim he hates gays by playing the centrist position when we all know that he's far too damn smart to believe the blooey about civil unions.  It's also galling now that half the country supports gay marriage.  The game is over.  The main person you're hurting is yourself with this "civil unions" and "I'm evolving" crap.  Throw those of us who are in the trenches arguing with the paranoids a bone and say what you mean, so we can point to it.  We're your main weapon against a Ralph Nader, you know. Work with us here.

Because as it stands, I honestly think that Obama could sign a repeal of DOMA, and people would still be claiming that he's a closet homophobe, because he'd probably do so while spouting some legalese that allows him to avoid saying the magic words, "I support marriage equality," and losing the two or three votes that he probably still gets for that. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:56 AM • (128) Comments

“...there’s a solid chance that Roe v Wade is going to be overturned.”

I don’t think so.  I think President Obama is going to win in a landslide next year and here’s why:

- he’s an incumbent, and incumbent presidents usually win
- unemployment was at 10% at this time in Ronald Reagan’s first term
- more than 90% of blacks voted for Obama in 2008
- nearly 70% of hispanics voted for Obama in 2008
- the only demographic the Republican presidential nominee won in ‘08 was old white people.

Comment #1: Gangsta  on  06/21  at  09:38 AM

Correction: The only age group McCain won was his own, voters over 65.  He did win the overall white vote, but that mattered nowhere near as much in 2008 as it did in presidential elections past.

Comment #2: Gangsta  on  06/21  at  09:50 AM

The problem, Gangsta, is that old folks (especially old white folks) are the most reliable voters out there. If you’ve got the old folks vote locked, then unless your opponent can charge up his or her base to get out and vote, you’re generally going to win. I think that Obama can count on minority voters (esp. with the hit job that the Repubs, once so sure they were going to get the latino vote back in the days of Bush, have been doing in the south). But he needs to get his base energized because they power the campaign, and he’s failing to do that.

Comment #3: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/21  at  10:02 AM

I actually don’t think it matters if Roe v Wade is overturned.  Abortion is de facto illegal in most of the country already.  Most of our legislators are perfectly happy to carve out a legal, private, medical decision under the Hyde act and conscience clauses because it only affects women.  It’s the perfect bargaining chip!  It’s not like any real humans ate harmed, and it just makes more perfect snowflakes that will turn the sluts into proper mothers/women.

And for the women who die?  What better “hero’s” death could they ask for?  Dying while attempting to bring a BAYBEE to a good Christian life?  Glorious.

Comment #4: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/21  at  10:07 AM

You have a point Gangsta, but the same folks who supported McCain are busy passing laws all over America to make it much, much harder for blacks, Latinos and young people to vote. For example, in Texas a concealed carry gun permit is valid ID to vote but a student ID for a Texas university is not.

I feel physically ill at the thought of another Nader like shadow candidacy. I am still angry. I have not forgotten and have been slow to forgive. I have days where I must restrain myself from sending emails to Nader voters who all said, “I’m voting my conscience” to see how their consciences feel now that we’re in two wars, Roe v. Wade is being overturned, war has been declared on the poor, and the economy is in the crapper. So I admire Amanda for not just screaming at lefties who use false equivalencies that they learned from our lazy assed media to say that Obama is just like any republican. That’s just bullshit.

Obama is a man who wants to get reelected. And he knows there are some ignorant people out there who won’t vote for him if he veers too far left from the center. It’s disappointing, but it isn’t nearly as scary as Bachmann and her ilk wanting to totally disenfranchise gay people and women of reproductive age.

Comment #5: serious bette  on  06/21  at  10:21 AM

That’s great, Gangsta. But Obama’s election actually isn’t how Roe gets overturned.  Before you start spouting numbers, perhaps you should think about who the authority to overturn a Supreme Court decision belongs to: not the President!  It actually belongs to the Supreme Court.  So the appointments that mattered were Bush’s, since Obama’s appointments have all been to replace judges that were already on the left side of the court.  Unless Roberts, Kenney, Thomas, Scalia, or Alito steps down—-and they won’t—-Obama is powerless to fix the situation.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/21  at  10:22 AM

If the current court led by Chief Justice Roberts could have overturned Roe v. Wade, they would have.

Comment #7: Gangsta  on  06/21  at  10:25 AM

I mean, you do realize the Supreme Court is independent, right?  They can make decisions the President doesn’t like, and have many times since Obama was elected.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/21  at  10:26 AM

Okay, Gangsta.  Can you point to the case where Roe was challenged, and Roberts upheld it?  Because I actually do a lot of work in this area, and I really feel like I would have noticed if that case happened.  One similar to it did—-the case regarding the ban on the D&X—-and the court went against Ree.  So far, 100% of challenges to Roe that I know of have been successful.

But if there’s a case where a state banned abortion and the Supreme Court overturned it, I’d love to see a link!  And I apologize for COMPLETELY MISSING it in my capacity as a full-time expert on reproductive rights.

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/21  at  10:30 AM

I hold no paranoid suspicions that Obama is somehow a closet homophobe, but the queer community needs some voicable affirmation from the President. I recognize on a logical level that we can be politically inconvenient at times, but I also hold that in our push for an egalitarian society, we must be affirmed by public figureheads as social opinion rapidly changes.

Comment #10: Cytoskellie  on  06/21  at  10:35 AM

I don’t think that Obama is a “secret conservative.” he’s just a late 80s/early 90s-era “moderate Democrat” who missed out on being radicalized by the Bush administration and has little direct experience with the malice and craziness of right wing Republicans that many people in America encounter.

This isn’t that hard to understand—if you just listen to what Obama actually says, he really does believe that republicans are good people whose policies have some good ideas in them. He’s not a secret radical leftist or a secret Republican—he’s who he says he is, which is misguided and not quite aware of the times he lives in, but that’s pretty standard for many people.

Comment #11: Tyro  on  06/21  at  10:37 AM

I would disagree about the Nader line, but otherwise I think you make some very good points about projecting and Obama.

Setting aside the allegations of voter fraud and the Supreme Court decision, Gore ran a poor campaign.  In such a narrowly decided race, Gore couldn’t even win his own home state (or Bill Clinton’s home state).  This has always seemed odd to me.

More to the central point, though: I’m not sure how best to push for more progressive goals without at times threatening to withdraw support for centrists.

Comment #12: Science Guy  on  06/21  at  10:37 AM

Am I getting crickets?  If you’re so certain the Roberts court took a pass on overturning Roe, can you please explain what case it was and how it went down, with the corresponding legislation that challenged Roe and some links?  My lack of knowledge of this case troubles me greatly!  I would have thought I would have remembered a case challenging Roe going up to the Supreme Court.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/21  at  10:38 AM

My point was that the Court has not overturned Roe v. Wade.

Justice Kennedy was a consolation prize for Republicans because they were unsuccessful in appointing Robert Bork, who would have been Scalia-like in his reliability to vote against abortion.

Comment #14: Gangsta  on  06/21  at  10:38 AM

Not exactly true, Gangsta.  You specifically said they would have overturned it and didn’t it.  I’m asking what case it was.  I really feel terrible about missing it!  I would have poured over this court decision where Roberts affirmed the right to choose.  Please link it, because otherwise, I’m forced to believe that the reason the court hasn’t overturned Roe is because they haven’t actually had that case in front of them.  I keep googling it, and all I see is Carhart v. Gonzalez, where the court overturned part of Roe v. Wade, but I’m not really seeing where they got a direct challenge to Roe and upheld Roe in the face of it.  Link, please?

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/21  at  10:42 AM

I mean, maybe Kennedy did vote to uphold Roe in this challenge!  But all I’m seeing is that last abortion case they have on record, Kennedy not only voted with the anti-choice side but wrote the opinion.

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/21  at  10:43 AM

I think Obama is center-right, just like the Democratic party. 

That’s what we have in this country: a center-right party and a looney-reactionary party.  This is especially clear on economic issues.  Both parties have drunk the supply-side/Chicago school economics theory.  Both parties are at this point trying to shred the economic safety net (exhibit “A”: Obama’s catfood commission).  The Obama and the rest of the center-right Dems just want to do it more slowly and leave a bit of it in place (maybe).  On labor organizing, the parties are virtually the same, except the Dems do give some lip service to unions I suppose.  And don’t get me started on the health care insurance reform fail.

I absolutely fail to see a difference in foreign policy, particularly when it comes to armed conflict.

The real difference between the parties (on the Federal level anyway) is on social issues.  The Dems (collectively) are somewhat LGBTQ friendly, and somewhat interested in civil rights (including women’s civil rights).  The Repugs want to return us to the Lockner era (Ron and Rand Paul), if not the pre-Magna Carta era (Bachman, Newt, etc.).

a Facebook friend insisted that there was no difference between Michele Bachmann’s point of view on gay marriage and Obama’s view.

What functional difference is there exactly?  Both oppose it because “God is in the mix.”  Obama is much, much, much better on LGBTQ issues in general.  For instance, Obama at least favors civil unions.  Civil unions are a second class form of marriage, but they are admittedly better than absolutely nothing.*  But frankly, I am going to take Obama at his word that he is against marriage equality because, as he put it, “God is in the mix.”  That sounds a lot like homophobia to me, even if nowhere nearly as extreme as full on, cross burning, bedsheet-and-conical-hood-wearing, Bachman style homophobia.

Hey, Obama ran a campaign in 2008 with a lot of center-left rhetoric and governed as a center-right president.  I understand the frustration of people on the left with the guy - I share that frustration.

*One could argue that civil unions are in fact worse that nothing because they have the potential to drain the energy from the issue of marriage equality.  Perhaps this is the case, but real couples in civil unions are getting the benefits of those unions.  I think that outweighs the possibility that civil unions will suck all of the oxygen out of the room.

Comment #17: Richard Goblin  on  06/21  at  10:44 AM

The Court has not full-out overturned Roe v. Wade.  If they had, Kim Kardashian would have tweeted about it because even she would know.

You’re arguing that the Court has weakened Roe v. Wade, and I have no quarrel with that.

Comment #18: Gangsta  on  06/21  at  10:47 AM

Okay, but again, please point to me where they had an opportunity to overturn it and passed on it.  You started off by insisting that Obama’s re-election would preserve Roe, and when it was pointed out to you that falls outside of his authority, you claimed the court had a chance to overturn Roe and didn’t…because Obama’s going to get re-elected?  How does that work?  And when did they have a chance to overturn Roe?  I just want the name of the court case you’re thinking of, because I can do the reading on my own.  I just can’t seem to find it with Google.  But I trust you!  They had a chance and passed!  But I just can’t seem to find the case.  All I can find is that the South Dakota legislature did try to mount the challenge, but the voters of the state stopped them.  But maybe some other state banned it and the Supreme Court said no? 

I just want a link.  Also, an explanation of how Obama made that happen.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/21  at  10:51 AM

Okay, but again, please point to me where they had an opportunity to overturn it and passed on it.  You started off by insisting that Obama’s re-election would preserve Roe, and when it was pointed out to you that falls outside of his authority, you claimed the court had a chance to overturn Roe and didn’t…because Obama’s going to get re-elected?  How does that work?  And when did they have a chance to overturn Roe?  I just want the name of the court case you’re thinking of, because I can do the reading on my own.  I just can’t seem to find it with Google.  But I trust you!  They had a chance and passed!  But I just can’t seem to find the case.  All I can find is that the South Dakota legislature did try to mount the challenge, but the voters of the state stopped them.  But maybe some other state banned it and the Supreme Court said no? 

I just want a link.  Also, an explanation of how Obama made that happen.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/21  at  10:51 AM

I think part of Obama’s waffling on this issue is a product of our very dysfunctional media environment.  We have one pseudo-news organization that is a 24-hour peddler of undiluted right-wing crazy, including but not limited to homophobic crazy.  And every time a gay person gets one more right that every straight person takes for granted, they demonize it as more of the ongoing destruction of the Real America by that evil Kenyan Muslim usurper.  And that crazy, unfortunately, infects the discourse. 

Personally, I’d love to see the polling showing that Obama would lose votes that were plausibly his to lose because he came out strongly for equal rights.  I don’t think I’ve seen that.

As far as Roe, we are Justice Kennedy away from having it overturned, and only because Kennedy has some modicum of respect for stare decisis that Roberts, Alito, Scalia and Thomas do not.  The states are busy passing laws to force the issue.  I actually think a Rehnquist-led court may have been marginally more willing to uphold the fundamentals of Roe than the current court, but admittedly that’s based only on the fact that Rehnquist voted to uphold the Miranda decision that he had condemned at an earlier point in his career.  Or to punt on the question altogether.

Comment #21: jeevmon  on  06/21  at  10:52 AM

Man, all I want is a piece of this glib self-assurance that Obama is going to win and have the magical powers to keep the court from overturning Roe.  Why am I being denied?

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/21  at  10:57 AM

@ serious bette

I feel physically ill at the thought of another Nader like shadow candidacy. I am still angry. I have not forgotten and have been slow to forgive.

Nader was a symptom of discontent on the Left (a natural base of the Democratic party historically).  Gore had two choices:  (1) co-opt Nader’s position and secure that part of the base, or (2) ignore that part of the base and ignore Nader.  Gore chose the latter and it may have hurt him in such a close election.  If you’re feeling unforgiving, I think you should blame Gore on this one.

Apparently, the Democratic bigwigs still prefer hippie-punching to co-option so they either (1) haven’t learned the lesson or (2) decided to ignore/demonize that part of base to appeal to the center right.

On the other hand, suppose you know 3-5% of the left will vote for an actual left wing candidate like Nader and will not be convinced otherwise, and you know that this margin will cost the Democrats an office.  It might be smart then for Democrats to realign their votes to the left wing candidate if only to keep the Republicans out.  LOL.

Comment #23: Richard Goblin  on  06/21  at  10:58 AM

Well, we can always hope for either Scalia or Thomas to suffer from catastrophic heart failure.  As far as I can tell, that’s the only way Obama will have an opportunity to appoint someone who isn’t a right-wing corporate lackey to the Supreme Court.  Although we would need at least a few more Democrats in the Senate in order to prevent the Republicans from blocking any and all appointees.  Then maybe we would be able to get a decision upholding Roe or legalizing same-sex marriage.  But I just have a gut feeling that the population at large will have to re-fight the entire legal battle for abortion after the Supreme Court isn’t filled with misogynists.

Comment #24: progrocker  on  06/21  at  11:01 AM

I don’t think that Roe will be overturned, simply because Republicans don’t actually want that.  If the overturn it, they will have no selling point for the single-issue voters.  They need that big scary monster to keep existing so they can get people to vote for them without ever noticing the other issues.  If they succeeded in banning abortion, then those single-issue voters would expect them to start tackling something else.

When Republicans get back in power, the Roe issue will be conveniently forgotten, only to be revived during election times to get single-issue voters riled up.  They’ll continue to be strung along for as long as Republicans can manage it.  The overturning of Roe would be their worst nightmare. 

They’re having much more success by keeping the big scary monster in place while chipping away at abortion rights a little at a time.  They can play both sides of the issue and get exactly what they want.  Legal abortion will be difficult for most women to get, especially those that have committed the grave sin of being poor or just not-rich.  Their rich wives and daughters will have access to safe abortions, but the rest of those horrible sluts will risk dying or injury from illegal abortions.  But at the same time, abortion will still be technically legal so they can still keep scaring the rubes into voting for them.  Republicans benefit far more from Roe being in place.

Comment #25: bananacat  on  06/21  at  11:01 AM

Well, I’m not only not going to hope for someone’s illness but point out that the odds that people who have the best health care in the country will do anything but survive all but the worst illnesses of old age isn’t something to bank on.  Cheney has a fake heart!  It doesn’t even beat.  Death isn’t really a factor anymore.

Comment #26: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/21  at  11:02 AM

I disagree, banana.  I think, if they weren’t really truly against abortion, Republicans wouldn’t have 1,000 anti-choice bills—-including direct challenges to Roe—-in state legislatures right now.

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/21  at  11:03 AM

My original point was that Roe v. Wade will not be overturned because President Obama is going to be reelected, which will give him the power to appoint more liberal justices like Sotomayor and Kagan when Scalia and the others retire.

I remember reading that Kennedy has been a disappointment to Republicans on the abortion issue.  I do not believe he has been as reliable as Scalia.  I don’t have a link, but my interest is piqued so I’ll try and find one today.

overturn: to destroy a court ruling

Roe v. Wade has not been destroyed.  It has been weakened, for sure.

Comment #28: Gangsta  on  06/21  at  11:09 AM

And to be clear, a number of states have passed laws that actually, for the first time (barring that link that Gangsta will surely provide!), give the court an opportunity to overturn Roe.  This hasn’t really happened in almost 20 years, and even that case was a stretch—-and the court didn’t stretch because O’Connor declined to do so.  But the 20 week bans attack the logic of both Roe and Planned Parenthood v. Casey, and could be used for an overall overturn. 

Unless of course, Gangsta provides the evidence that there was some other case where a state outright banned abortions Roe allows in a direct challenge to it, and the Roberts court upheld Roe in the face of the ban.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/21  at  11:10 AM

Oh, you think that Scalia and others will retire!  That’s adorable. Naive, but very cute.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/21  at  11:11 AM

“Well, we can always hope for either Scalia or Thomas to suffer from catastrophic heart failure.”

I was waiting for that the whole time Cheney was Vice President, in fact I’ve been waiting for that since his heart condition was an issue when he was made Bush Sr.‘s Secretary of War.  Unfortunately they must have developed some awesome technology to keep evil people alive, which they would no doubt use on Scalia or Thomas as needed…

***

“I don’t think that Roe will be overturned, simply because Republicans don’t actually want that.  If the overturn it, they will have no selling point for the single-issue voters.”

Yup.  This was why bin Laden was so useful, and why hanging Saddam Hussein was a mistake. 

If you want to be Batman, you need a Joker, if you want to be Sherlock Holmes you need a Dr. Moriarty, if you want to be Big Brother you need an Emmanuel Goldstein.  Any comic book reader understands that…

“They’re having much more success by keeping the big scary monster in place while chipping away at abortion rights a little at a time.  They can play both sides of the issue and get exactly what they want.  Legal abortion will be difficult for most women to get, especially those that have committed the grave sin of being poor or just not-rich.  Their rich wives and daughters will have access to safe abortions, but the rest of those horrible sluts will risk dying or injury from illegal abortions.  But at the same time, abortion will still be technically legal so they can still keep scaring the rubes into voting for them.  Republicans benefit far more from Roe being in place.”

QFT…

Comment #31: MikeEss  on  06/21  at  11:18 AM

Scalia surely will die someday.  I may be idealistic, but I’m willing to bet he’ll retire before he dies.

All I said is that the Court has not overturned Roe v. Wade.

The link I was talking about providing would be on Justice Kennedy.

Comment #32: Gangsta  on  06/21  at  11:23 AM

I also said that I do not think the Court is going to overturn Roe v. Wade.  That was my original statement.

Comment #33: Gangsta  on  06/21  at  11:30 AM

If Obama wins, Roe is more or less safe, in its watered-down, post-Casey form. If he loses, it’s in grave peril. First, Kennedy is clearly regretting his Casey vote, as you can see with all the chauvinistic garbage he packed into the latest Carhart (“partial birth” abortion) case. Second, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, while a wonderful judge, is not immortal, and I think there is good reason to believe that the decision as to whether or not to leave the bench will be taken be out of her hands sometime in the next five years.

I completely agree with Amanda that Obama’s waffling is just annoying at this point. I think it was probably the right call in 2008 (although don’t underestimate the effects of partisanship; if Obama had come out in favor of marriage equality during the campaign, it might just have hastened the shift in public opinion toward marriage equality, and possibly led to the defeat of Prop 8). It is now just a cowardly, don’t-rock-the-boat call. The people who are passionately opposed to marriage equality are already coming out to vote against Obama. Young voters disillusioned by the realities of governance are the ones who most need motivating, and having the President come out on the right side of the big civil rights issue of our time would provide at least some of the necessary motivation. This is a case where a politician can and should do the smart thing by doing the right thing.

Comment #34: SS451  on  06/21  at  11:39 AM

Amanda at 8:56am:  “...there’s a solid chance that Roe v Wade is going to be overturned.”

Amanda at 10:38am:  “If you’re so certain the Roberts court took a pass on overturning Roe, can you please explain what case it was and how it went down, with the corresponding legislation that challenged Roe and some links?  My lack of knowledge of this case troubles me greatly!”

Comment #35: Gangsta  on  06/21  at  11:39 AM

Kennedy is the swing vote on the Court with regard to overuling Roe.  His vote was cast, back in Casey, for upholding Roe in the abstract, but allowing the states to pass regulations making abortion more difficult to obtain.  Few analysts think he’s going to change his mind.  So, the status quo is unlikely to be altered in either direction unless a “liberal” justice is replaced with a conservative, or vice versa.

Comment #36: rea  on  06/21  at  11:44 AM

Amanda, this is certainly your blog and you can sardonically steamroll whoever you want—and maybe I’m missing some bad blood between you and Gangsta—but I don’t think Gangsta was intending to opine as a Constitutional scholar.  Gangsta didn’t initially state that the Roberts Court had been presented an abortion case and chose not to overturn it, but rather that he didn’t think they would if given the opportunity.  He ran into trouble with comment #7 when he states they could have done it by now if they wanted to.  He’s not entirely wrong, though.  Aside from Carhart, the Roberts Court granted certiorari and chose not to invalidate Roe in Ayotte v. Planned Parenthood of Northern New England. 

Attorneys can’t simply file a case saying “Roe is wrong.”  They have to chip away at aspects of its subsequent interpretation, bring those up for re-interpretation, and hope to have the whole thing invalidated by the Justices sua sponte.  The Roberts Court isn’t particularly more conservative socially than the Rehnquist Court, and there have been significant challenges to Roe that have been successfully/partially beaten back by the liberal minority of justices, which has not changed in its overall makeup.  I don’t see any reason why, without the addition of another conservative justice, Roe would be overturned now and not earlier.

Comment #37: CW21  on  06/21  at  11:55 AM

Speaking as a liberal who is bitter and really, really, sick and tired of the constant hippie punching from Obama, I’m going to go with the simpler and less charitable interpretation of Obama’s actions.

Somewhere along the line he became religious and as he himself has said he opposes same sex marriage because he thinks his deity opposes same sex marriage.

So, yeah, I don’t see a lot of air between Bachmann and Obama on the issue.  Bachmann wants to take it further, she’s not in favor of the separate but equal civil union bone Obama is willing to toss out, but their pubic statements put them in 100% agreement on the topic of same sex marriage: they’re opposed to it.

I’m done cutting him slack.  He’s used up all the slack I’ve got.  From now on I’m taking him at his word, and I’m believing what he actually says and does rather than what I hope and wish he would say and do, or how I can twist what he’s said to match what I hope for.  He says he opposes same sex marriage, I believe him.  He certainly hasn’t done jack shit to demonstrate any support for same sex marriage, or any other civil rights issue, why should I pretend otherwise?

I’ll vote for him in the general, he’ll be a better option than any of the Republicans, but I’m voting against him in the primary, and I’m not feeling any particular urge to match my 2008 donations and GOTV work.  I worked for him, he stabbed me in the back, so I’m not working for him again.  He gets my vote, anything else he’ll have to earn with actual, genuine, liberal action.  And he seems not to want even my vote what with his constant stream of attacks on liberals and liberal positions.

Comment #38: sotonohito  on  06/21  at  12:17 PM

  The pertinent question is what we can do to shove candidates, including Obama, further to the left. And I do mean, shove. I don’t mean wimpy petitions or running around doing GOTV or saying “Oh my god, the Supreme Court. Roe!” I mean, doing things which cause pain and damage to his donor fundraising. He wants to raise a billion dollars, let’s go after his donors. 

It’s almost useless to re-elect Barack Obama in order to preserve Roe and Griswold if he’s just going to appoint some more center-right judges, if center-right keeps moving further right all the time.  My voting life started with the Bush election, and I was hoping that we wouldn’t lose ground on everything at least with a Democratic president. That’s like the minimum pragmatic expectation.  We haven’t even gotten that. Barack Obama signed an executive order enshrining the Hyde Amendment into law. That’s not pro-choice, and you know it.

Where’s the feminist equivalent of ACT-UP? Where are the women chaining themselves to the White House for reproductive rights? Did Code Pink disappear or they just not being covered?

Comment #39: Shakti  on  06/21  at  12:20 PM

Actually, Obama could do something.  He could get the attorney general to investigate Thomas’ financial shenanigans.  He could push his fellow Dems to take up Weiner’s cause and push for impeachment.  It has happens before to a SCOTUS, for nearly the same reasons.

Once Scalia’s second vote is off the court, he could appoint a liberal, supposing he could get the GOP to let him appoint anyone.

It’s *possible*.  It is highly unlikely.  The rule of law doesn’t matter if you’re a republican; even the democrats leave them alone.

Comment #40: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/21  at  12:31 PM

Scalia surely will die someday.

And you assume that this will happen by 2016 because…............?

Comment #41: Triplanetary  on  06/21  at  12:34 PM

I see absolutely no reason for the obsession with “Obama has to say he supports marriage equality NOW” line of argument. It’s obviously a position taken for political reasons. On policy, his administration’s work on doing things like requiring Medicaid to treat same-sex partners equally or requiring hospitals that accept Medicare or Medicaid to not discriminate against same-sex couples, he’s doing a hell of a lot more good than a simple public statement. In those ways, he’s actually putting policy into place that improves the lives of LGBT people.  A statement of “I’ve changed my mind [again]” doesn’t DO a damned thing.

Comment #42: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  06/21  at  12:36 PM

What we need is a liberal Tea Party equivalent to make serious threats in primaries.  And willingness to lose a few seats in the general to punish the worst offenders.

There’s that joke about how the Republicans fear their base, but the Democrats hate their base.

Knock off a few of the Blue Dogs and maybe the rest of the Democrats will learn to fear us.

Since it has been demonstrated that even with 60 votes in the Senate the Democrats won’t do anything even remotely liberal, and we’re below 60 now, we might as well take advantage of that cowardly stance and sacrifice a few Blue Dog Senators.  It won’t make any difference anyway, and if we vote them out it might encourage the other Democrats to knock off the hippie punching and start voting for a real liberal agenda.

I’ll take a real Republican over Joe “the traitor” Lieberman.  I’ll take a real Republican over Dianne Feinstein.  Kick ‘em out, teach the others to fear the left and maybe we can get some real work done.

Comment #43: sotonohito  on  06/21  at  12:39 PM

We’re in 3 wars now.

Only two of them were started under Bush.

Comment #44: Daisy  on  06/21  at  12:43 PM

Thanks, CW21.  I just have a minor correction to your post.  You wrote, “He ran into trouble with comment #7 when he states they could have done it by now if they wanted to.”

What I actually said was, “If the current court led by Chief Justice Roberts could have overturned Roe v. Wade, they would have.”

Republicans are slowly chopping away at Roe v. Wade, so as to not disturb anyone other than the activists and women who need an abortion.  It’s very similar to their strategy regarding our tax system.  They have slowly chopped away at our progressive tax system over the past 30 years.

Comment #45: Gangsta  on  06/21  at  12:53 PM

Triplanetary:  “And you assume that [Scalia will die] by 2016 because…............?”

I don’t assume he will die by 2016, but I looked up his age and he is 75.  My suspicion is that he hopes President Obama will lose next year for two reasons: so the Court can overturn Roe v. Wade and he can retire.

Comment #46: Gangsta  on  06/21  at  01:05 PM

Leaving it to the states means that we pay $10K to the feds - 10% our gross income and benefits - for the right to live together.

That’s inexcusable.

Comment #47: Crissa  on  06/21  at  01:06 PM

But, Gangsta, that’s Amanda’s point.  The Roberts court has not been able to rule on Roe because no challenges to Roe have been brought before it.

That’s quite likely to happen soon.  It would have happened already if South Dakota hadn’t made their anti-abortion law quite so draconian.  All it takes is one state passing a law banning abortion, then it gets challenged, then it goes to the Supremes, and then we find out whether Kennedy will vote to kill Roe or not.

Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, Alito are guaranteed votes to kill Roe.

Kagan, Sotomayor, Ginsburg, Brayer are (we hope) guaranteed votes to preserve Roe.

Kennedy is the real question, and his previous votes to chip away at Roe are not encouraging.

If they manage to get Roe back up before the Supremes there is a good chance of the current court reversing it.  All it takes is one state banning abortion, and we’ve got dozens lining up for that job.

Worse, Ginsburg is very old and may be retiring or dying soon. Given Obama’s tendency to appoint “centrist” types rather than genuine liberals, plus the inevitable Republican filibuster and Democratic cave, who knows what sort of surrender disguised as a compromise we’ll get to replace her.

Comment #48: sotonohito  on  06/21  at  01:12 PM

Oh, you think that Scalia and others will retire!  That’s adorable. Naive, but very cute.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte

About as naive as actually getting Thomas to be impeached.
I’m with Caren on this.  He’s as crooked as they come, but IOKIYAR.

I’m going to do what I can to support progressive causes, but I’m feeling we on a long, slow march to a Russian style oligarchy

Comment #49: cynickal  on  06/21  at  01:34 PM

Nader-haters are blaming the victims.  The problem is that the Dems are too far right economically to arrest our nation’s decline.  The only way that changes is if they lose elections when they drift too far right.

Now, I’m not saying that it will change.  It may well not, at least in our lifetimes.  But if it does change, it will be because the electoral politics demand it, not because we are all handwringy.

Comment #50: Punditus Maximus  on  06/21  at  01:48 PM

It’s almost useless to re-elect Barack Obama in order to preserve Roe and Griswold if he’s just going to appoint some more center-right judges, if center-right keeps moving further right all the time.

At least at the level of the Supremes, I don’t think this is accurate.  Kagan and Sotomayor are solid votes for upholding Roe & Griswold.  Of course, since they replaced other justices with the same views, it hasn’t effected the overall balance of the court, but that’s hardly Obama’s fault. 

(Personally I would have preferred Obama put a leftist firebrand in the Brennan/Marshall mold on the court, but in current practical terms it doesn’t matter since Kennedy’s vote is typically the deciding one.)

Comment #51: topometropolis  on  06/21  at  02:19 PM

Obama’s embrace of Reagan should’ve tipped everyone off.  He’s the wrong dude at the right time, and now we’re pretty much out of time to resist the batshit nation.  Winter is coming indeed.  Enjoy the show.

Comment #52: elpathos  on  06/21  at  02:23 PM

On the 2000 election, don’t blame the virtually powerless Nader voters who only got one vote each.

Blame Ralph Nader, maybe, but don’t blame me for how bad this new millenium has sucked.

Comment #53: Gangsta  on  06/21  at  02:29 PM

OMFG yes yes yes:

“I still remember the Bush years, and pretending that Democrats are the exact same thing as Republicans didn’t do us any favors then.  And Republicans are even more radical now.  Pretending Bush and Gore were the same is why we’re in two wars and there’s a solid chance that Roe v Wade is going to be overturned.”

THIS times fifty.

Liberals apparently have pretty damned short memories. 

We couldn’t get SCHIP PASSED FOR POOR KIDS when that f-er Bush was in office.  We couldn’t get Lily Ledbetter passed (who the hell is against equal pay for god’s sake?).  And he put in seriously radical Supreme Court justices, who are handing the country over bit by bit to corporations.  (Corporate personhood.  The mind freaking reels.) 

This is why I have to carefully pick and choose at Shakesville, navigating around Melissa’s insanely insulting “Bush’s 3rd term is coming along wonderfully” recurring series.  Makes me so mad I could scream.

Comment #54: maribelle  on  06/21  at  02:30 PM

What we need is a liberal Tea Party equivalent…

We had one. It’s called ‘Obama’s base’ or alternately, ‘the 2008 electorate’ and their slogan was ‘yes we can’.

Unfortunately, Democrats then spent the next 2 years after raising that huge popular support insulting disappointing them. Obviously, McCain/Palin would have been a disaster. But the last couple of years still taste like a tasty shit sandwich. Between being hippie punched and ignored while the country slides deeper and deeper into economic disaster, and the meager sops thrown to us, it’s depressing.

It doesn’t help that we’re supposed to be excited about things that haven’t happened. For instance, DADT which, contrary to popular misconception has not actually been repealed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don’t_Ask,_Don’t_Tell_Repeal_Act_of_2010

 

Comment #55: Ross Lincoln  on  06/21  at  02:32 PM

Seems like SCOTUS will get a free pass on Roe so long as abortion opponents keep winning like they have in state legislatures. The ball’s been in NARAL’s/NOW’s court long enough on a lot of these new state restrictions and we’re not seeing any significant challenges from them.  They seem afraid to pull the switch on Roe, knowing the Court is a shaky bet now, which effectively renders it’s protections moot.  Or am I missing any current efforts?

Comment #56: elpathos  on  06/21  at  02:36 PM

Secondly, and off topic, why are scams like QuiBids and bank savings accounts that don’t really ever gain interest legal, while a simple game of cards or a re-distribution pot are illegal?

Comment #57: Crissa  on  06/21  at  02:36 PM

The argument in comments is annoying.

Please, pray tell, what shredding of the safety net has been pushed forward by Obama or the Congressional Caucus?  No, not something by the handful of Blue Dogs.  No, not something by Republicans which hasn’t gotten past Sen Reid’s desk, let alone Pres Obama’s.

Grr.

Comment #58: Crissa  on  06/21  at  02:38 PM

The only way that changes is if they lose elections when they drift too far right.

This makes zero sense.  If you don’t vote, you don’t get a say.  Why would a drift towards the only other voters make them drift back to your lazy ‘leftist’ asses?

If you’re not willing to pick up a single step, to do the dirty work of making coalitions and votes and bills passed, you’re just a bunch of hot air that’ll never, ever have the gravity to reverse the trend.  It doesn’t happen on its own by wishful thinking ‘gosh, they’re losing elections to Republicans!  Maybe they shouldn’t be like Republicans?’  But they lost to the Republicans.  Who voted.  You didn’t.

Comment #59: Crissa  on  06/21  at  02:46 PM

SCOTUS routinely refuses writs to cases like these, for example: 

The Center for Reproductive Rights today filed a federal lawsuit challenging a new Texas law to require pre-abortion sonograms.  http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/politics/entries/2011/06/13/lawsuit_challenges_texas_sonog.html

Comment #60: elpathos  on  06/21  at  02:46 PM

“Plus, enough time has passed that we’ve forgotten how much damage a Ralph Nader situation can do.”

Jumping Jesus on a Pogo Stick, talk about zombie memes.  Every time Nader get blamed for the 2000 election outcome, it gives Gore a free pass for running a pig’s breakfast of a tepid, lazy campaign & completely distracts from the fact that BushCo. FUCKING STOLE IT.  Gore fucked up what ought to have been a cakewalk by the usual assumption of the entitlement / emotional blackmailing that DLC fuckmouths habitually display re: the progressive vote - “You plebes don’t like our voting record or policies?  Tough shit.  Whatyagunnado?  Vote Republican?  Then you can kiss Roe vs Wade goodbye.  Now get back the back in line, you sweaty little hoi polloi, & knock it off w/ these ideas above your station.  We’re not.  Fucking.  Interested.

I’d like to add another “irritating liberal tendency” to that list:  “Ralph Nader cost Gore the 2000 election” is a thumb-suckers myth that lazy, ineffectual DLC drones parrot because it absolves them of any responsibility for both the sloppy campaign they ran, for the disaster that ensued over the following 8 years, and for their inability to clean up the mess that BushCo. left.  The sooner progressives wrap a chain around the neck of the DLC, the Blue Dogs, the DINOs & their enablers in both the party & the media & throw the whole sick crew overboard, the sooner we’ll see real progress being made, starting w/ actually seeing an expansion of the social contract instead of fighting tooth & nail w/ our backs to the wall & our heels over the edge, our only reward watching it erode slowly rather than ripped up & thrown in our faces.

Ever take a ride in an automobile w/ a seat belt?  Thank Nader.

Comment #61: Smartpatrol  on  06/21  at  02:48 PM

And anyone who says that there isn’t space between Obama and Bachmann on gay rights need to step outside and get some fresh air.  Obama appointed transpeople in his administration and in judgeships, Bachmann’s husband tries to cure the gay.  Fuck, that’s about forty years ago in space.

Comment #62: Crissa  on  06/21  at  02:50 PM

Thank Nader?  Thank Nader for something he did before I was born, and I’m old enough to be President.

So yeah, fuck Nader.  He’s been a tool for more than a decade, doing nothing to move the political discourse to the left.

Comment #63: Crissa  on  06/21  at  02:54 PM

@topmetropolis
Right now, Obama doesn’t really fight for the nominees who people think would make a real difference.  See Elizabeth Warren. He’s not nominating lower federal judges from whom a pool of liberal Supreme Court nominees could be drawn.  Obama being the Overton Window coward that he is, is only going to appoint center-right/ moderate judges.  The idea of what is center-right keeps drifting rightward in comparison to what is was 30 years ago or even 10 years ago. So the court drifts rightward anyways.

@maribelle
S-CHIP is going to go poof as a result of that health care bill.  My health care will be objectively worse when that bill goes into effect because I have to pay out of pocket for an abortion because of an executive order Obama signed. Status quo was the Hyde Amendment would be renewed every year. Now, it’s enshrined into law.  I am being mandated to buy insurance while there are no price controls for those insurance companies I’m being mandated to buy insurance from.  Lily Ledbetter was a return to what the status quo was before the radical judges voted on it.  Obama’s newly appointed justices just voted to dismiss a class action suit based on gender against Walmart.

By all means,  GOTV and give money to Obama if that makes you feel better. Me, I’d rather devote my energies to organizations and people who I know are going to have my back instead of half-assedly handing my liberties and freedoms to my enemies, while mouthing stupid mea culpas and asking me for money.  I did GOTV for Obama and I early voted in 2008. I will not do it again. I have to save up money for any future birth control mishaps I may have.

Comment #64: Shakti  on  06/21  at  02:57 PM

“He’s been a tool for more than a decade, doing nothing to move the political discourse to the left.”

Crissa: providing evidence of how effective the corporate dominance of political discourse has been since 1971.

Comment #65: Smartpatrol  on  06/21  at  03:01 PM

Right Smartpatrol - the Nader-did-it meme is probably the most annoying one in the left-o-sphere.  Everyone forgets that Gore picked fucking Joe Lieberman (!) to be his VP, who was as much the loathsome prick in 1999 as he is today, and exactly why I and many other liberals voted for Nader.  Nice try kids, but the blame for the Bush presidency lies squarely on Al Gore’s shoulders.

Comment #66: elpathos  on  06/21  at  03:02 PM

Great.  Still there’s Nader-bashing, and we’re all the way up to 2011.  Didn’t the Dems have the White House and both houses of Congress near the start of 2009?  What did they do with that?  I voted for Nader in 2000, and Gore won anyway.  Gore’s victory was stolen, and did his millions of supporters take to the streets to protest it (you know, like they do in those ‘backward’ countries)?  No, they swallowed the theft and instead scapegoated Nader and his supporters.  That’s some spineless, weak-assed shit, but it’s nice to see that it’s adaptable to making excuses for yet another ‘centrist’ Democrat servicing high finance and the military-industrial complex while leaving working U.S. citizens to go fuck themselves.

Speaking of fucking oneself, the ‘blame Nader’ meme seems to hew awfully close to a certain right-wing electoral proclivity; that is, if you don’t have the sense or the guts to vote for what you really want, you can make yourself feel better about being a short-sighted coward if you make a show of pissing on those who refuse to be beaten with their own canes.

Comment #67: Sam Holloway  on  06/21  at  03:11 PM

Getting rid of Blue Dogs in primaries is a good thing, but as with all things IOKIYAR.

When Democrats lose, it’s because the country has shifted to the right, despite all polling evidence to the contrary.  They never admit they are too far to the right.  When Republicans lose, they double down on the crazy.  They never shift to the left.

When Republicans win by razor thin margins, they declare it a mandate and move as far to the right as possible.  Even when recalls are impending, proving that policies are unpopular, they push to enact the laws they want and do as much damage as possible while in power.

When Democrats have a filibuster proof majority, they start from compromised positions of weakness and continue to work for *compromise* despite a screaming mandate for change.

Comment #68: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/21  at  03:12 PM

Nader-trashing = hipster-bashing = hippe-punching.  Knock it off.

“Obama doesn’t really fight for the nominees who people think would make a real difference.”
More than that: he not only doesn’t bother fighting for people he’s already appointed when they fall into the crosshairs of the Right-Wing Lie Machine (Van Jones, Shirley Sherrod, whomever’s next…), he throws them under the bus to appease those who won’t ever be appeased.

Comment #69: Smartpatrol  on  06/21  at  03:20 PM

And leaving aside the abortion issue for a moment, Obama’s arguably done something much worse than any Republican ever could have.  By doubling-down on nearly all of Bush’s abuses of executive power, Obama has successfully entrenched buku extra-constitutional Presidential powers for decades to come. The only person who could have undone Bush’s abuses was Obama, and he did exactly the opposite.

Comment #70: elpathos  on  06/21  at  03:24 PM

Shakti—you’re wrong about Walmart, and it helps prove my point:

“The Wal-Mart case split the court 5-4 along its ideological divide, with Justice Antonin Scalia’s majority opinion concluding the allegations against Wal-Mart were too vague and the evidence too weak…”

Obama’s justices would have sent the case back to the lower courts:

“Four justices—Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan—said they would have returned the case to a lower court and let the workers try to press a class action using a different legal theory.”

All the more reason why ELECTIONS MATTER even if you don’t love everything your official does.

But okay, Shakti.  You stay home and throw yourself a big ole pity party on election day 2012 because Obama didn’t turn out to be a closet Kucinich.  Which he never claimed be.

So you’re so upset about the Hyde amendment and some possible abortion you might have to have someday (?) that you’re going to stay home, sitting on your hands and watch Bachman or Romney become president?

Good luck with that.  I’m sure Bachman would just love to help you get health care, or overturn the Hyde amendment.

Comment #71: maribelle  on  06/21  at  03:32 PM

“By doubling-down on nearly all of Bush’s abuses of executive power, Obama has successfully entrenched buku extra-constitutional Presidential powers for decades to come. The only person who could have undone Bush’s abuses was Obama, and he did exactly the opposite.”

If it had been McCain/Palin or Clinton/??? it most likely would have been no different.

When 9/11 was used as an excuse to expand presidential powers (and remember, Bush/Cheney were already doing illegal stuff before 9/11 too), and Congress rolled over and said nothing, that opened Pandora’s Box.

They all think that if they could get their hands on the One Ring — no matter how much it twists people’s minds and makes them do evil — they believe they will be the one person who uses it for good. 

No President is going to give that power up, unless Congress and the SCOTUS force them to give it up.

Given our useless Congress and the reactionary Reichwing SCOTUS, that’s likely not going to happen any time soon…

Comment #72: MikeEss  on  06/21  at  03:56 PM

Am I concocting paranoid theories about Obama if I believe that he accepts the premises of supply-side economics?

Comment #73: Raenelle  on  06/21  at  03:58 PM

That will to power was not part of Obama’s resume, BTW, nor his campaign rhetoric.  He did not campaign as the DC Darling he’s become.

Comment #74: elpathos  on  06/21  at  04:13 PM

I don’t think Obama and others of his ilk are secretly closet Republicans. Nor do I think they’re fence-straddling mugwumps afraid of their own shadows. I think most Democrats, like most people, are primarily interested in their own interests, which for Democratic politicians means re-election. They can’t win without corporate cash, so they must take the cash, so they vote how our masters want. Spinelessness isn’t really the issue: it’s just the most plausible cover story they can cook up to conceal the fact that they’re doing the bidding of our overlords instead of their constituents.

Comment #75: felagund  on  06/21  at  04:13 PM

Raenelle,

If President Obama accepted the premises of supply-side economics, he would not be in favor of ending the Bush tax cuts for the rich, and making them permanent for the middle class.

He’s not a supply-sider.  He didn’t appoint James Galbraith as his Treasury Secretary, which would be awesome, but he’s not a supply-sider.

Comment #76: Gangsta  on  06/21  at  04:14 PM

@maribelle

You’re conflating a closet Kucinich with keeping the status quo and you’re conflating massive discontent with not liking everything someone does. That’s a mistake.

Voting is literally the most passive thing anybody does.  Doing GOTV takes time and money (which unless you have a time machine you never get back, and I still have to transport myself and have the luxury of taking that time to do that instead of earning a few extra bucks, which I need) and donating money takes time (because I am literally calculating how much of my life I had to use to earn that money.)  I spent four hours in line to early vote. I literally do not have have the time to do that anymore.

When I said I will not do that again, I meant, I’m not going to devote weeks to GOTV and I’m not going to devote an afternoon or eight hours to stand in line to vote.  I will literally take an hour including parking, and if through some shenanigans it’s going to take more than that, I do not know whether I will stand in that line.  I’m well aware there were more progressive candidates on the ballot.  I’ll do it for someone that toes the line. I’m not going to do it for someone who has demonstated they have no interest in my wellbeing. If I’m going to spend the time it’ll be for 3rd party organizations and people who aren’t mushy ineffective surrender monkeys. 

I’m not just upset about the Hyde amendment.
I’m not just upset about health insurance.
I"m not just upset about DOMA/or DADT.
I’m not just upset about the fact he’s colluding with motherfuckers to cut Social Security. You know the 15% that comes out of my paycheck supposedly to benefit me in my old age before people start talking about income tax.

I’m not just upset about he doesn’t seem to want to do a damn thing about massive unemployment right now. And please don’t talk to me about how the economy is “recovered” and how none of your friends are underemployed or unemployed so it isn’t a problem.

I’m not just upset about the fact he just rolls over on the massive amount of hate directed at immigrants.
I’m not just upset that I’ve sent petition after petition and made phone call after phone call and letter after letter to my representatives and the White House, and all I get is static and condescension.

You think I’m upset because of SINGLE issue? You think that my lack of health care access and the Social Security cuts and the immigrant hate doesn’t directly affect my life?  Do you think the massive unemployment/underemployment rate doesn’t affect my life?  My lack of health care access and the underemployment rate is directly affecting my life RIGHT NOW.
 
I’m well aware that I don’t have Republican allies and I’m well aware the state I live is overwhelmingly Republican.  There were more progressive candidates on the ballot in 2008.  But if I’m literally told over and over again that what I need and want doesn’t matter by this official I supported, then it makes no difference whether I pull that lever or not or whether I GOTV or not, or whether I donate money or not.  Why should I break my head over and over again to defend some empty suit who sounds good?

But go ahead, condescend to me and tell me how much worse President BachPalinRomney will be.

Comment #77: Shakti  on  06/21  at  04:16 PM

So Obama gets a pass for not doing the right thing because Congress and SCOTUS wouldn’t stop Bush before him?  That’s like blaming a DWI fatality on the cops because they didn’t catch the drunk driver before he crashed. 

I’m not saying Obama’s a closet Republican, if anything, he’s more stands-for-nothing-falls-for-anything camp. Opportunity drives him, principles not so much.

Comment #78: elpathos  on  06/21  at  04:30 PM

Shakti,

Your anger is misplaced.  President Obama has been forced to work with a Republican party devoted to his failure since his election.  He never had 60 Democrats in the Senate.  The most he had was 59, which meant he had to court a Republican to get liberal legislation passed, thus weakening the legislation.

Blame only the Republican Party for how much this new millenium has sucked.

Comment #79: Gangsta  on  06/21  at  04:31 PM

&“Speaking of fucking oneself, the ‘blame Nader’ meme seems to be awfully close to a certain right-wing electoral proclivity”.
I’d like to argue that it’s even closer than that: the “Blame/Fuck Nader” meme is kissing-cousins to the right-wing rhetorical proclivity of going off on a tear about “the Liburl/Lamestream Media” whenever one of their pet projects, big or small, goes down in flames.

Whenever I hear some righttard blowhard running off @ the mouth re: the “Luburl” media, the question that I’m asking myself is “What policy failure / campaign disaster / membership scandal are they trying to provide cover for here?”  Whenever I hear some DINO getting into a lather re: Nader 2000, I’m thinking “What possible benefit is there to be gained from giving Gore Bush a free pass for their respective entitlement/theft when the consequences of both are all around us?”  The answer to the latter is because casting blame for your own failures onto others provides the same kind of low-investment/high-return emotional gratification that Amanda has written about in previous posts re: wingnuts & their memes.  That, plus it avoids the long, hard stare into the mirror that it takes in owning up to your own faults, assuming responsibility for the failures indulging in those faults led directly to, and (last but not least) doing the deep, hard work that it takes in correcting those faults that not only ensures that those failures are avoided in the future.  This kind of self-work is high-investment/low-return for sure, but it makes room for the chance that one will not only improve oneself to the point where one will measure up to one’s standards, but exceed them when the opportunity/occasion arises/demands it.

@ Crissa:
Apologies for the snark.  Your glib dismissal of Nader hit a raw nerve, but I shouldn’t have dumped on you like that.  Seatbelts in automobiles are part of Nader’s legacy, one that every progressive ought to be proud of & share in.  What bothers me the most about the Nader-bashing is that I’m seeing parallels between that & the East German Stasi-like campaign of harassment he was targeted w/ by the Ford Motor Co. for calling them out on their dangerous business/manufacturing practices (i.e.: the Corvair - the car that killed Ernie Kovaks) when he published Unsafe At Any Speed.  Progressives may be shut out of the mainstream discourse, but cutting ourselves off from our own history only leads to enforced amnesia.

Comment #80: Smartpatrol  on  06/21  at  04:32 PM

Gangsta - O never forced a filibuster the whole time he had those 59 Democratic Senators.  We all begged for a GOP filibuster on healthcare.  Nothing like a little round-the-clock sunlight on the batshit brigade to bring the peeps over to your side, but O just caved. He’s the worst negotiator we’ve had as President since Truman.

Comment #81: elpathos  on  06/21  at  04:50 PM

“So Obama gets a pass for not doing the right thing because Congress and SCOTUS wouldn’t stop Bush before him?”

He doesn’t “get a pass” from me, but what can I do stop it?  There isn’t a person running for POTUS now or in the foreseeable future who would give up that power, on the Left or on the Right.  Not gonna happen, which was why it needed to be stopped before it was too late.

“That’s like blaming a DWI fatality on the cops because they didn’t catch the drunk driver before he crashed.”

...no, it’s like blaming the bartender that kept selling Mr. Drunk drink-after-drink when everyone could tell he was already drunk out of his mind.  And then just let him walk out of the bar and climb into a car and drive off.  Without calling the cops.  And under those circumstances the bartender is liable along with the perp…

Comment #82: MikeEss  on  06/21  at  04:51 PM

”...he was targeted w/ by the Ford Motor Co. for calling them out on their dangerous business/manufacturing practices (i.e.: the Corvair - the car that killed Ernie Kovaks) when he published Unsafe At Any Speed.”

I don’t know whether Ford ever targeted Nader or not, but the Corvair was a Chevrolet, made by General Motors, and it continued in production until 1969…

Comment #83: MikeEss  on  06/21  at  04:55 PM

@Gangsta
Yes, Republicans are obstructionist. But I blame Obama for giving more away than he had to. It’s bullshit.

There was a majority in the Senate and a majority in the House, and the Presidency, which he won by overwhelming margins.  And all he could get was some status returning Lily Ledbetter Act?  A Republican in the same situation would have enacted the Republic of Gilead in six months with 59 Senate votes. 

He appears to surrender before he even starts fighting!  Let’s start by asking for less than what you want—that’ll totally work!  Dude had a bipartisan committee in the Senate on health care—just remember that Republicans in the same position would never have done the same.

I see no benefit to being all carrot and no stick.  Why would he have any incentive to work for you or me or anybody who isn’t Goldman Sachs or a big 100K donor?

Signed,
No Party Likes Me Anyway But they Keep Panhandling Me.  Pissed Off Independent.

Comment #84: Shakti  on  06/21  at  05:08 PM

Mike - what can you do?  You can voice your disappointment with the President instead of deflecting the blame for his misdeeds elsewhere.  Failure to protest your chosen candidate when he’s clearly wrong only ensures that he will ignore you completely, you’re already behind him 100%.  Nothing less significant to a pol than the loyal courtesans who think the sub shines out his ass.  STFU is the least effective way for jilted dems to get Obama’s attention.

Comment #85: elpathos  on  06/21  at  05:09 PM

Yeah, people get so unreasonable when denied their civil rights. They should just chill the fuck out!

Comment #86: vitaminC  on  06/21  at  05:15 PM

“You can voice your disappointment with the President instead of deflecting the blame for his misdeeds elsewhere.  Failure to protest your chosen candidate when he’s clearly wrong only ensures that he will ignore you completely, you’re already behind him 100%.  Nothing less significant to a pol than the loyal courtesans who think the sub shines out his ass.  STFU is the least effective way for jilted dems to get Obama’s attention.”

Please enlighten me about what I can do to persuade Mr. Obama of the error of his ways.

I voted for him in 2008 (since I live in California, and he won it going away, it wouldn’t have mattered if I voted for McCain.  Which I wouldn’t have done for anything.)  I’ve bitched here plenty (although I’m not what John Cole would call a “firebagger”), and my guess is that a comment from me here is much more likely to have influence over most other things I could do.  I’m not going to write him an email or a snail-mail:  Don’t want to end up on some DHS list.  I have to remain anonymous to protect what little privacy I have left.  ???...

Comment #87: MikeEss  on  06/21  at  05:19 PM

@Mike

We will not get the change we want without inflicting or threatening to inflict PAIN. We only got that half-assed DADT repeal because activists kept working and fighting and chaining themselves to the White House and organizing boycotts of those anti-gay donors and heckling him to his face, saying things like “We will stop giving money.” If he thinks he’ll lose without your support or not having your support will stop the money train he will cave or someone who is running against him might step up to fill the void.

Comment #88: Shakti  on  06/21  at  05:20 PM

“I don’t know whether Ford ever targeted Nader or not, but the Corvair was a Chevrolet, made by General Motors, and it continued in production until 1969…”

You’re right, & more than that.  Now that I think about it, it was GM that harassed Nader & not Ford.m Thanks for setting me straight.

Comment #89: Smartpatrol  on  06/21  at  05:22 PM

I’m thinking about finding creative ways to hurt his big donors financially or with terrible publicity and to be a pain in their asses and have it linked to “we don’t like this policy.”

Comment #90: Shakti  on  06/21  at  05:24 PM

- unemployment was at 10% at this time in Ronald Reagan’s first term.

The U3 was 9.4% in July 1983 and Reagan’s approval rating was roughly the same as Obama’s currently is. However, there’s no chance in hell that Reagan would have pulled off his 1984 landslide if unemployment hadn’t dropped significantly over the next 16 months. By the time of the election, unemployment had fallen to 7.2%, which is the highest unemployment rate in which an incumbent POTUS has won re-election since FDR.

IF unemployment falls below 8%, I believe Obama will win re-election. If it remains above 8%, I’m a lot less confident. If it remains above 9%, he’s a one-term president.

As for the issue of same-sex marriage, Obama absolutely needs to find his spine and quit worrying about being demonized by the people who already hate him anyway.

Comment #91: DTGslu2K  on  06/21  at  05:53 PM

I’m thinking about finding creative ways to hurt his big donors financially or with terrible publicity and to be a pain in their asses and have it linked to “we don’t like this policy.”


This is a terrible idea but if you follow lulzsec on twitter they will let you call into their switchboard and suggest a site for them to ddos. If you were lucky enough to get through you could have the Koch industries website down for a few hours. Or you might just get a guy using a fake french accent screaming racial slurs. I suppose you could make your own botnet but that would be definitely illegal.

Comment #92: pharmakos  on  06/21  at  05:58 PM

He could push his fellow Dems to take up Weiner’s cause and push for impeachment.  It has happens before to a SCOTUS, for nearly the same reasons.

Impeachment of federal judges begins in the U.S. House of Representatives. Obama could push House Democrats all he wants, but as long as John Boehner is the Speaker of the House, there’s no chance of it even being discussed on the House floor, much less going to actual hearings.

Comment #93: DTGslu2K  on  06/21  at  06:23 PM

Smartpatrol @ #61:

Yes, Al Gore ran an absolutely craptastic campaign in 2000. Yes, voter suppression took place in Florida which probably cost Gore quite a few votes. And yes, George W. Bush took advantage of a SCOTUS stacked in his favor to steal the election.

All of those things are true. But what is also true is that Ralph Nader got more than 97,000 votes in the state of Florida alone, and the final “official” certified results had Bush winning Florida by fewer than 550 votes. If even just 5% of those Florida Nader voters had voted Gore instead, Dubya would have never become POTUS.

I agree that it’s unfair to place all of the blame on Nader voters for the 2000 election debacle, but I also think it’s silly to pretend that Nader’s presence in that election had no impact on the ultimate outcome. Had any one of these factors been different - Gore not running a shitty campaign, vote suppression not happening, SCOTUS making the correct ruling, or Nader not running, Al Gore would have been the 43rd President of the United States.

Bush emerged as president because he was fortuitous enough to have a perfect storm which made what should have been impossible possible.

Comment #94: DTGslu2K  on  06/21  at  06:46 PM

Shakti, I am reading a lot of pain and fear in your response and I have great sympathy for your position.  Believe me, I get what you’re saying.

I get how you don’t want to give $ to or do GOTV for Obama.  I have to make this same decision in 2012.  I worked like a banshee in 2008.  Will I again?  Not sure.  Remains to be seen.

My point is: yes, I will vote for Obama because he’s pushed a lot of the priorities I support (and some I don’t, but I knew in the campaign I disagreed with him, such as escalation in Afghanistan.)

I doubt I will donate because post-Citizens United I simply can’t compete with the Koch brothers et al.

And I (obviously) don’t know your health care situation, but it’s hard to imagine how you’re now worse off under the Affordable Care Act, parts of which haven’t even been implemented yet.

Good luck to you and best regards.

Comment #95: maribelle  on  06/21  at  06:49 PM

“Gore not running a shitty campaign, vote suppression not happening, SCOTUS making the correct ruling, or Nader not running, Al Gore would have been the 43rd President of the United States.”

DTGslu2K, one of these things is not like the others: Nader ran for office because he is a citizen of a democratic country engaging in one of that country’s democratic processes.  Voter suppression is, to the best of my knowledge, a crime that violates the law (the Election Rights Act?  Someone let me know if I’m wrong.), & NO ONE went to jail for this - neither those who organized it (Kathleen Harris & her runty little sidekick whatsisname) nor those who enforced it (the cops doing the intimidation & suppression).  The Republican-stacked SCOTUS had NO business hearing the case & ruled extrajurisdictionally, & admitted as such when they dismissed a similar case a year or so later.  Gore picked fucking Joe “Droopy Dog” Lieberman as his running mate, assuming that everyone had forgotten that Droopy’s most recent accomplishment had been shivving Bill Clinton during the Monica Lewinsky pseudo-scandal.  Oh, & as someone who followed the Dead  Kennedys Frankenchrist trial: “Tipper Rocks”!?  FUCK OFF, Al.

Yeah, Nader won 97 000 votes in Florida alone because he fucking earned them.  Because he ran on a platform that appealed to the Green party’s base.  Because he got the Green Party’s members exited about participating in the democratic process.  Because progressives felt included, as opposed to the Clinton Administration, where after having worked like motherfuckers in the 1992 election to end the Regan Era, they were promptly kicked to the curb, shut out of the discourse & forced to watch as Clinton passed Bush the 1st’s NAFTA & kicked poor people in the teeth w/ the welfare reform act & shat on many of the LGBT folk who also busted their humps getting him into office by passing DOMA & reneging on the issue of gays in the military, etc.  Because progressives got fed up w/ being taken for granted.  Because Nader did what you’re supposed to do when you’re running for Public Office in a fucking democracy.  Whenever I hear DLC drones making excuses for Gore’s abysmal failure of the 2000 campaign by blaming the Greens & calling Nader a “Spoiler”, I see the same brand of arrogant, out-of-touch entitlement that slammed Hiliary’s primary into the ground.  It’s like the abusive by taking-for-granted husband that comes home one day to find that his wife has had enough of this abuse-by-neglect & finally walked out taking her shit the kids & the money w/ her, yet he fixates that she’s the one abusing him by not having dinner on the table when he came home.

So - to the “Ralph Nader Cost Gore The 2000 election” meme: go die screaming w/ sharp things in your head.  It is lazy, dishonest & failure to admit this is as much fun as watching a dog being forced to lick vomit off a thistle.

Nader-Trashing = Hipster-Bashing = Hippie-Punching.  Period.  Full Stop.  Pointe Finale.

Comment #96: Smartpatrol  on  06/21  at  09:35 PM

This could have easily been shortened to “Dear women and gays: Obama doesn’t hate you, he just doesn’t give a shit about you unless you’re politically expedient. Just like pretty much everyone else. Now shut up and vote for him because OMFG President Palin!”

His position on women and gays diverges from Bush’s in that he doesn’t push actively harmful policies. Good for him. How many non-wars are we in now? Was it six we were up to? His transparency is worse than Bush’s. His economic policy is trickle down crap. He’s pushing for more Free Trade agreements, only this time with countries where attempts at unionizing are put down with extreme force. He’s not a secret Republican, there’s nothing secret about it.

@Crissa: The left did massive amounts of GOTV work in 2008. I knocked on doors for Obama in a dark red state (Which is no fun, let me tell you.) and I and everyone else that was doing door knocking with me was a solid lefty. Absolutely none of us will work for his reelection. The fact that he sucks ass isn’t my fault, it’s his. Well, his and the people that are dumb enough to support him no matter what. Kool Aid drinkers suck no matter what party they belong to.

Comment #97: JThompson  on  06/21  at  09:54 PM

Damn, I wish I could edit posts. Oh well. To reply to the piece you couldn’t sign off on enough: Liberals thought he was on the left because he said he was. We made the mistake of taking him at his word.

How’s that “We will renegotiate NAFTA!” promise coming? Well, not only are we not renegotiating NAFTA, we’re pushing for more Free Trade. Turns out he DOES have a magic wand when it’s stuff he actually wants passed.

That and “I will not sign a healthcare bill that doesn’t include the public option.” turning into “I did not campaign on a public option.” as well as “Mandating health care is like ending homelessness by mandating people buy houses.”.

Those two promises helped him push past Hillary in the primaries. He pretended he cared about the poor and middle class, and he was lying through his teeth.

Comment #98: JThompson  on  06/21  at  10:00 PM

Yeah, I’m thinking Obama isn’t ‘waffling.’  He’s finding creative ways to double-talk to his base.  Which seems to get easier with each election.

Comment #99: Sam Holloway  on  06/21  at  10:07 PM

I knocked on doors for Obama in a dark red state (Which is no fun, let me tell you.) and I and everyone else that was doing door knocking with me was a solid lefty. Absolutely none of us will work for his reelection.

You are a whiny baby. I wish there was a tool other than an ad hominem at my disposal but there just isn’t. Guess what. “OMFG President Palin” (or Romney or Pawlenty more likely) is not a scare tactic. It’s a genuine possibility. And it will do significant harm to this republic if it comes to pass. But you’re entitled to your nihilistic rage.

Comment #100: typist  on  06/21  at  10:40 PM

Going back to the Original Post:

I think it’s because it’s “inexcusable” culturally to view centrism negatively.

Centrism is seen in our culture as a positive aspect of a person. It means they are impartial, fair, too smart for the propaganda of both sides, a straight-shooter, a uniter, someone who can bridge painful gaps and bring us together as a country.

Centrists receive the most unearned plaudits by politicians and media because the low-information voter is the all important ingredient for horse-race political races and is the safest political stance to adopt.

It gets all the plaudits and so I imagine a lot of people are reacting to that.

They feel hurt. The desperate “centrism” is making their lives worse, feels hideous against their lived experiences and feels just as dehumanizing and abandoning as the actions of the far-right. And centrism means good things in our society, so complaining about centrism becomes “complaining about the far-right tendencies in someone”.

Oh, it isn’t their fault. They just have X far-right tendency that’s feeling that way that’s struggling against this other progressive tendency and that let’s you latch onto something and criticize it and in such a way that doesn’t make you look “bad” culturally speaking, because who in their right mind hates centrists?

But the lived experience is that centrists suck.

They are quick to abandon people in need and surrender to the vile attacks of the right-wing because they want to “above the fray”. They will ignore life experiences and actively resist positive growth, because they feel it’ll hurt their “impartiality” or they heard from their brother Terry that your side does it just as bad and besides we should all be the bigger man here. They will turn your tragedies into speeches about “looking past the partisan divide”. They will squander political capital and in the end will seek the return of the status quo above necessary improvements and will let the right wing bully them if they think it’ll shut them up.

Further more, it’s often the refuge of the dumb, the apathetic, or the cowardly.

Centrists and centrism suck.

You are right that people need to not call it right-wing activity, because that just lets centrists off the hook for their centrism. It retains the notion that it is still something praise-worthy.

If we’re going to fix reflexive centrism and the candidates who engage in it to our detriment, then we need to call it out as the cowardice it is.

Obama doesn’t disappoint because he’s secretly right-wing, but because he’s reflexively centrist and does not believe enough in the great progressive traditions that have been the only positive fixes to our nation’s problems in at least a hundred years.

And that’s the behavior he and the other Democrats need to be shamed on.

Comment #101: Cerberus  on  06/22  at  12:51 AM

significant harm to this republic

I suppose that opening up new war fronts (while doubling down on existing ones); continuing to coddle the casino capitalists while pretending the jobless and homeless working folks don’t exist; ratcheting up the domestic war on dissent; and continuing to allow corporate interests to dictate ever-lamer regulatory regimes, all that must be good for the republic.  Anyone who thinks that being handed more of that isn’t deserving of their effort and their vote is a whiny baby?  Fuck you.  If being beaten with your own walking cane is your idea of being a grown-up, have at it.  You most definitely have the government you deserve, you smug, clueless, masochistic asshole.

Comment #102: Sam Holloway  on  06/22  at  01:08 AM

@ MikeEss: From Wikipedia.
“Nader claims that GM responded to Nader’s criticism of the Corvair by trying to destroy Nader’s image and to silence him:
(1) GM conducted a series of interviews with acquaintances of the plaintiff, questioning them about, and casting aspersions upon [his] political, social, racial and religious views; his integrity; his sexual proclivities and inclinations; and his personal habits.
(2)  GM kept him under surveillance in public places for an unreasonable length of time.
(3) GM caused him to be accosted by girls for the purpose of entrapping him into illicit relationships.
(4)  GM made threatening, harassing and obnoxious telephone calls to him.
(5) GM tapped his telephone and eavesdropped, by means of mechanical and electronic equipment, on his private conversations with others.
(6)  GM conducted a ‘continuing’ and harassing investigation of him.

On March 22, 1966, GM President James Roche was forced to appear before a United States Senate subcommittee and to apologize to Nader for the company’s campaign of harassment and intimidation. Nader later successfully sued GM for excessive invasion of privacy.  It was the money from this case that allowed him to lobby for consumer rights, leading to the creation of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency‎ and the Clean Air Act, among other things.”

Comment #103: Smartpatrol  on  06/22  at  01:27 AM

You’re spewing a whole bunch of cherry picked, ideoligically driven garbage about the Obama administration’s records. I am unemployed, and when the Republicans tried to cut off our benefits, Obama and the Democrats stopped them. The Obama administration passed a stimulus package, admittedly insufficient, that put a lot of people to work and it saved the American auto industry. The Obama administration became involved in a joint effort with the French and the British governments to prevent groups of Lybian citizens who are rebelling against a dictator who has lost all legitimacy from being killed, and he has engaged in targeted actions against people who are *trying to murder American civilians* in a number of countries, he has drawn down in Iraq and is about to announce major troop withdrawals in Afghanistan. It has also passed significant health care reform and a repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell despite OVERWHELMING opposition from the Republican Party and from conservative Democrats.

I could go on but I’ll keep it simple: Fuck you Sam. Fuck you times a thousand. You are not only a whiny baby, like all the other self satisfied progressives who want to take their balls and go home, you are a liar. I know the vast majority of people on this board will agree with you and attack me. Maybe that’s masochism but so be it. I’m proud to be telling the truth as I see it. Oh yes, and fuck you again.

Comment #104: typist  on  06/22  at  01:27 AM

O never forced a filibuster the whole time he had those 59 Democratic Senators.

You’re an idiot.  No, really.  Do you know how you beat a filibuster when you’re the majority?  You get 60 Senators inside the rotunda to sit there and vote until you have 60 or the other forty guys don’t manager to have a single one show up.  Do you know how you continue a filibuster when you have 40 guys?  Only one of your guys has to be there at any time to say no.  They rest can be home asleep.

Fuck that.  Name the 59 Senators and why we could count on them to filibuster.  You know, with how many Blue Dogs?

Right.  Idiot.

Comment #105: Crissa  on  06/22  at  02:28 AM

If you don’t work for his re-election, or primary him, what the fuck are you expecting?  Do you think Republicans are going to stop stealing elections?  Are they going to stop the graft and incompetence?  Are the going to stop appointing Clarence Thomases?

Comment #106: Crissa  on  06/22  at  02:36 AM

If McCain had won, Roe v. Wade would have been overturned by now.

Unless you don’t care about reproductive rights, I don’t see why you wouldn’t GOTV for President Obama like a motherfucker next year.

Comment #107: Gangsta  on  06/22  at  09:37 AM

President Obama is a lot like Lincoln, in the sense that Lincoln was often criticized by progressives like William Lloyd Garrison and Frederick Douglass.  In that vein, President Obama has progressives like Lawrence O’Donnell and Dan Choi to push him along.

Did you see when Dan Choi tore up that dude’s flyer at Netroots?  That was gangsta.

Comment #108: Gangsta  on  06/22  at  09:48 AM

Unless you don’t care about reproductive rights, I don’t see why you wouldn’t GOTV for President Obama like a motherfucker next year.

Yeah, well, all the man needed to do to ensure that would happen was to take a stand against the Stupak amendment instead of falling over the minute anybody so much as looked at him.  If my support is so important to him, why didn’t he do that?

Comment #109: EG01  on  06/22  at  11:58 AM

You mean, the amendment that wasn’t fucking in the final bill?  That amendment?

Yeah, thanks for actually paying attention to what the President did, which was affirm that currnet law would be applied since that’s what the majority in Congress voted for and since that was already passed law

What, you want him to ignore the laws when it’s convenient to your cause?

Comment #110: Crissa  on  06/22  at  12:23 PM

The Obama administration became involved in a joint effort with the French and the British governments to prevent groups of Lybian citizens…[blah, blah, blah…]

NATO attack kills 19, including women and children
More…

The Obama administration passed a stimulus package, admittedly insufficient...

I’ll say (and so did Krugman):
Krugman: Wimpy Obama’s Stimulus Already Too Small

It has also passed significant health care reform…

It’s significant, alright; it’ll keep lining the insurance companies’ pockets and taxing the shit out of our economy, and it still won’t guarantee health care to everyone as would single payer or even a robust public option.

...and a repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell…

Great.  So now gay servicemembers can have less fear of being denied the opportunity to go overseas and murder poor brown people and then come home injured and get neglected by the underfunded VA system.  I call that monumental.  While we’re on the topic, what’s Obama saying about DOMA this week?  Is it the same as his position last week?  Enquiring minds and shit…

In summation, I sit corrected.  I know now that it was wrong of me to say “fuck you” to you.  With so little incentive, you adamantly exert your prerogative to fuck yourself.

Comment #111: Sam Holloway  on  06/22  at  01:28 PM

#109:  This is why Democrats are born to lose.  We suck.  A single issue will have us grabbing our toys and running home in a fit of pique.  The Republicans may be evil, but they are competent and focused (even when they are fighting each other and flinging poop like the animals they are). 

I am just fucking done. If I did not hate modern conservatism so much, I would switch parties just so I would not have to listen to this kind of childish, petulant fucking nonsense.  Focus, motherfuckers!  You want to give the election away or you don’t.  Decide then either get to work, or sit on your ass and masturbate on election day (but shut the fuck up with spreading your message of apathy and stupidity). 

There are people who will ENTHUSIASTICALLY want to vote on that day but will be disenfranchised because of the new Jim Crowe-ish bills being passed all over the country by Republican governors.  Are you telling me that because Obama caved on the Stupak amendment, you are willing to hand this country back to those rotten bastards?  Really?  Okay, Obama has pissed me off and made me proud in equal measure.  But I am not going to be getting out the vote just because of him. I am going to be getting out the vote to counter the GOP Gestapo and their disenfranchising bullshit.  Maybe it is just me, but I give a fuck about more than my pet issues. 

Also, I laugh at the crushing, devastating pique of the motherfuckers who were crushed by the realization that Obama is not their fantasy Morgan Freeman/Nelson Mandela/Bill Cosby/Common/Mos Def (and insert whatever other cool-black-person-that-white-people-think-is-awesome) Black Jesus.  Funny though, actual black people see him as pretty similar to most Democratic presidents of the past.

Comment #112: Weezie Jefferson  on  06/22  at  01:47 PM

Sam, you can question the effectiveness of Obama’s progressive accomplishments, all of which were passed through Congress, like all laws but you have failed to refute their existence.

Comment #113: typist  on  06/22  at  01:48 PM

And no I’m not the one with those fantasies of Obama, I just think he’s a reasonably decent politician, and the most progressive one to be elected to the office of the presidency since maybe Harry Truman, working within a very difficult system.

Comment #114: typist  on  06/22  at  01:51 PM

Hm, for some reason I thought I was still talking to SH there when I was responding to WJ, whom I agree with. Oops.

Comment #115: typist  on  06/22  at  01:53 PM

I can’t help but juxtapose this poutragey comment string “I am so staying home and retooling my iPod playlist on election day because [insert disappointing thing here].”  or “I am not going to stand in line more than an hour because Democracy is like, so boring to me and stuff, ya know?  Cause I like, totally did not get my way and I am a privileged fuckface, like….totally.” while poor and brown people (and some olds who are not angry, white, and rich) will be told to turn the fuck around and go home because they don’t have the right kind of identification.  But yet, at the first opportunity, the privileged internet “progressives” will run to get on the teevee to tell everyone that they speak for all Democrats.  Sorry, but to quote some other fucker on the internet:  You are not the base.  You are not even in the basement.  And you don’t speak for me.

Comment #116: Weezie Jefferson  on  06/22  at  02:04 PM

While the vast majority of people I spoke to at Netroots had a nuanced view of Obama, I did run across in the past few days, online and offline, people who were pushing the “Obama is a member of the religous right” line.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is racially based thinking, brought to you by the same people who thought that religious Blacks carried Prop 8 in California.

Comment #117: oldfeminist  on  06/22  at  02:04 PM

I think that volunteering for and supporting Obama is like being an employee for the federal government, like the foreign service: you might not like the president you’re serving under, but you signed up to look out for your country’s interests, no matter what. It doesn’t matter to me that Obama came into office at a time when his temperament isn’t what’s needed for America. What matters is, honestly, that my country needs me to protect it from the dangerous right wing crazies. I’m going to be disappointed in Obama plenty, and I can be pissed off a him all I want for 3 years straight. But that 4th year, I belt up, bite my tongue, and do what needs to be done.

Comment #118: Tyro  on  06/22  at  02:26 PM

@Tyro:
Yep, it’s Republican Lite vs. Republican Batshit Insane. My long-term plan? Vote Obama and move to Europe. Slightly less nuts with universal healthcare. The USA is fucked.

Comment #119: vitaminC  on  06/22  at  02:30 PM

#118:  Yes, this.

Comment #120: Weezie Jefferson  on  06/22  at  02:40 PM

My long-term plan? Vote Obama and move to Europe. Slightly less nuts with universal healthcare.

I don’t blame you for a second.

Comment #121: Tyro  on  06/22  at  02:44 PM

@Crissa - missing the point.  The filibuster was a bluff that Obama never bothered to call the GOP on.  I’m not saying stopping it would’ve been a piece of cake, I’m saying it would have worked in Democrats’ and the President’s favor, esp. the longer it endured.  But it was a non-starter for Mr. Middleman.

Comment #122: elpathos  on  06/22  at  03:52 PM

Reality check: I thought the other side were the ugly Americans.

And just so we’re clear, is this how progressives should talk to each other when they disagree? 

“go die screaming w/ sharp things in your head. ...this is as much fun as watching a dog being forced to lick vomit off a thistle.”

Just to be clear, this comment was made in reference to a disagreement about WHETHER RALPH NADER LOST THE 2000 ELECTION.

Woah.  This comment thread makes me want to run to screaming into the nearest ocean, and swim like hell for Europe.

Comment #123: maribelle  on  06/22  at  04:29 PM

“Unless you don’t care about reproductive rights, I don’t see why you wouldn’t GOTV for President Obama like a motherfucker next year.”

Ok, I’m going to make myself unwelcome, I’m sure. STFU, asshole. I’ve been working for reproductive rights since 1973. You? I’ve been involved politically, I’ve been a clinic escort, I’ve written, I’ve worked my ass off since I was 14 years old.

In every election cycle since 1976, I’ve been told to shut up, sit down like a good little girl, cross my legs at the ankle, and vote for the Democrat. I’m farking sick to death of being beaten over the head every 4 years wtih Roe and told to vote for a party which forgets I exist and does nothing to protect my rights until the next time they need my vote.

I am far from a one issue voter. This is hardly the only problem I have with Obama…name an issue, and I’m not only further left than he is, and I’ve said so since 2008. I’m done with so called liberals and progressives who lack spine, finesse and the guts to play hardball. If that means that a Republican gets elected, well, perhaps that would motivate some liberals to actually work for real progressives.

Roe is meaningless for a lot of women in this country at the present time - it is no longer an effective whip to hit me with. I’m 52. Menopause is around the corner, I’m sure. Perhaps it’s time for some younger women to get as angry about the state of reproductive rights in this country as I am, and instead of supporting the “not quite as evil” guy who only lets our rights be nibbled away year after year, they’ll try actual protest, and support someone who actually *does* something to protect our rights. This doesn’t go only for presidential politics, but all the way down the line to local elections.

As for using Roe as a weapon? It’s no longer a scary threat when it has already been so weakened that many women find abortion unavailable or unaffordable. Perhaps the fauxgressives should have thought of that before they tried to threaten us with it again.

Comment #124: Broce  on  06/22  at  04:43 PM

maribelle, the “die screaming” comment was directed at the Meme itself, not anyone in particular, the “thistle” remark was the sensation I get hearing that go-nowhere meme being used as an excuse to avoid self-reflection.  Is all.

Comment #125: Smartpatrol  on  06/22  at  11:37 PM

@ maribelle.
Also, if you want a real eye-opener of just how petty & stupid & selfish our side can be, & can’t recommend Susie Bright‘s memoir “Big Sex, Little Death” enough - the ingrained sexism of the New Left, the sniping & purges that went down in the International Socialists, & the violence & intimidation that was perpetuated by the sex-negative Establishment Feminists(professionals, academics) against the sex-positive Bohemian Feminists(sex workers, artists).  As an added bonus, she writes like a box of chocolates.

I went down to Bellingham, WA to hear her speak last month, & posted my recording here.  Please let me know what you think.

All the Best,
Smartpatrol.

Comment #126: Smartpatrol  on  06/23  at  12:10 AM

Are you telling me that because Obama caved on the Stupak amendment, you are willing to hand this country back to those rotten bastards?  Really?  Okay, Obama has pissed me off and made me proud in equal measure.  But I am not going to be getting out the vote just because of him. I am going to be getting out the vote to counter the GOP Gestapo and their disenfranchising bullshit.  Maybe it is just me, but I give a fuck about more than my pet issues.

It was an example.  Gitmo?  Still open.  There’s another example.  Public option health care?  Never even made it to the table.  Hell, name me a progressive campaign promise that Obama has actually followed through on.

Obama has a bully pulpit and he has spectacularly failed to use it for any progressive causes, including to condemn the throw-back-to-Jim-Crow-era voting laws.  If you think that re-electing Obama is going to prevent the right wing in this country from doing whatever the hell it wants, then go ahead and work for him.  I don’t see anything in the past few years to indicate that.

And while I haven’t been around as long as Broce, I’m seconding her impatience with being continually told that my rights aren’t important enough for me not to support a given Democrat over.  Hey, if they’re so negligible, and yet my vote is so important, why not throw me a bone?

Comment #127: EG01  on  06/23  at  10:33 AM

Crissa @ #68, I don’t think it’s so clear that this country is to the left.  I think the polling tells us that Americans are to the left on individual issues, but more Americans consider themselves or identify themselves as conservatives than liberals.  This allow many to hold the contradictory beliefs in more progressive policies, while voting for conservative candidates who they think will somehow enact those policies.  It’s like the young New Hampshire woman who said she’d vote for Romney over Obama because Romney would create some sort of government program to help unemployed people and put them to work.

Comment #128: Monala  on  06/24  at  09:57 PM
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