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Next entry: Post-holiday ‘fatties’ dumped from BeautifulPeople.com dating site Previous entry: Oklahoma: Homo-hating Sally Kern now turns to heterosexuals and divorce

It only seems threatening, but it’s not!

This article in the NY Times by Hilary Stout is a classic example of how the Times specializes in covering trends that threaten the patriarchal status quo by assuring the audience that the threat is safely contained and really not a threat at all.  The topic is the growing incidence of unmarried couples buying houses—-something that’s been going on a long time, and both people in my household have bought and sold houses whilst living in sin before we even met each other.  So yes, it can be done!  And it’s not particularly more fraught than doing it with a spouse, since the latter is just as capable of up and deciding they don’t love you anymore and sticking you with an economic and legal nightmare. 

But setting that aside, what’s funny about this article is how it shows how the Times has perfected the art of subtly reassuring readers that this trend poses no threat to the patriarchy.  Because, stripped of all pretension, the ugly truth is that women who buy alone or go in with someone (male or female) who isn’t a husband are flouting social conventions that suggest that women (and to a degree, men) don’t deserve to have nice things if they don’t comply with the social requirement of marriage.  But not to worry!  As this article demonstrates, these people—-especially the women—-will pay for their transgressions.

Because the narrative that’s implied, though not outright stated, is that this whole trend is more proof that Feminism Is Bad For Women.  Because men, who of course are so much cleverer and more ruthless than women can even imagine, will happily exploit lowered social standards to get what they want (sex, real estate) while depriving women of the deepest, and really only desire women really possess, the wedding ring with a side of babies.  Somehow, quotes upholding this point of view magically appear in the piece.

“My whole thing was with this market, get the house — the one you want and love — first,” Mr. Haberstroh said.

That wasn’t entirely her whole thing. “I was itching to get engaged before we bought the house,” said Ms. Horelik, 28, a teacher who works with special education students. “Chuck definitely felt the pressure from me and both of our families.”

But, she added, “now I see why he wanted to wait. He saw the prices and rates were dropping and we realized we may never see such a buyer-friendly environment again.”

What I especially liked was that last bit, which makes it clear that women are personally too weak to stand up for what they want, and so they need patriarchal strictures to step in and force men to do the right thing.  The notion that this was something that actually happened is a joke that makes this jolly spinster feminist laugh, of course—-there’s no evidence that back when women knew their place, there was less raping, stringing women along, or abandoning dependent women.  But I digress.  You can’t subtly intimidate the rebels with just one example, after all.

“New York rents are very high and you never see that money again,” Ms. Matthews said. She went on to list the benefits of buying: “We got a great mortgage rate, 4.75,” she said. In addition, owners of units in new developments in New York City can take advantage of a program that phases in property taxes over a period of 10 years. And then there’s the federal tax credit for first-time home buyers, to expire on April 30, 2010, which will provide several thousand dollars in income tax relief.

“We will eventually get engaged and get married,” Ms. Matthews added. “We’re kind of like, let’s get this apartment now, then let’s make it official.”

Mr. MacLaughlin said: “We were talking about getting married and I said, ‘Wait a minute, if we just put off the ring, we’ll get the apartment first.’ ”

You or I might see this as just chatter, but rest assured, it’s pitch perfect for a conservative to swoop in and point out that women are just so dumb they can’t see how men are exploiting sexual liberation to get the milk without buying the cow.  That this woman actually lists the arguments are no matter—-it’s made very clear that she’s parroting what her boyfriend told her.  The point is that even though this story purports to be about couples breaking the mold, they went out and found quotes to reassure you that your stereotypes are still upheld. 


Towards the end of the piece, it’s briefly mentioned that one couple they interviewed has “committed”, in the author’s words—-meaning engagement, since of course it’s silly to think that a couple who eschews marriage is really committed—-and a fairy tale ending is offered for one of the women initially mentioned, who gets her ring reward when they move into the house.  But that’s all mentioned after we’re informed that only idiots would think to go in on a mortgage without the marriage.  Because—-did you hear?—-couples who aren’t married sometimes break up! 

Trulia posts such questions on a message board called Trulia Voices, and real estate professionals often chime in with answers. One of the notes on the board contained the following cautionary tale from a couple who split up, rather than marry, six months after buying a new house.

Of course, it has to be acknowledged that readers immediately will remember that married couple they knew who broke up two days after the wedding, or whatever horror story you want to fill in.  But of course, we’re duly informed that divorce is a piece of cake, whereas breaking up without getting the law involved is some sort of nightmare.

“If you are not married, you have to fill in the blanks,” Mr. Rosabianca said. Toward that end, he recommends that unmarried couples consider signing what amounts to a pre-prenuptial — legal agreements specifying the unknowns, including “who contributes what percentage of the expenses, mortgage, taxes, common charges, utilities.” He added, “You also have to account for capital gains — what percentage goes to whom.”

And there can be other issues. “Say this house is close to your mother,” Mr. Rosabianca said. It may be wise to sign an agreement saying, “If we break up, you have to buy me out, because I don’t want to live near your mother.”

Couldn’t that be a problem for a married couple going through a divorce as well?

“With a married couple that would probably be handled with the divorce,” he said. With an unmarried couple “it’s almost more prudent to be proactive in addressing these concerns.”

This strikes me as very bad advice.  Not the part where you have an agreement going into the mortgage—-that’s just smart—-but the notion that the marriage certificate just takes care of your business and you don’t have to worry about it.  This conflicts with the wisdom of anyone who has actually lived in the real world for more than two seconds.  Granted, I’ve always lived in Texas, but in all that time, I’ve seen only one cohabitation situation get ugly enough for lawyers to get involved during the break-up—-and only one divorce that didn’t involve lawyers, and that’s because they hadn’t been married long and had no property to speak of.  In my experience, either way you slice it, you have to divide up the property.  If you weren’t married, it’s often really simple—-you both had your name on the mortgage, you split the sales 50/50.  Or, in some cases, only one of you owned it, so the other one is free and clear to walk away, with minimal tears and drama and threats.  I suppose you could say the non-mortgage-signer person in that case isn’t “protected”, but since he or she would be paying rent anyway, it actually ends up being exactly the same in the end.  With the added bonus of they don’t have to go to divorce court.  And that’s the thing—-marriage is an institution, so people entering it are expected and even encouraged not to think about taking responsibility up front for the rules of the relationship or the rules in case of a break-up.  They often eventually get there, which is why the marital counseling industry makes money, but up front the expectation is that you’re buying into a standardized contract that won’t need modifications.  But if you’re not engaging in an institution, you have to deal with more stuff up front.  Sure, some people are really irresponsible and passive aggressive and don’t—-often and especially if they’re waiting around for someone to propose and/or issue a proposal-forcing ultimatum—-but few non-married couples I know who go into financial agreements have completely avoided the question of “what about a break-up?” in the way that married couples are encouraged to do.  As the quote above demonstrates. Though it’s true that more of us should get it in writing instead of just agree verbally on what will happen.  But then again, married couples would probably be better off with pre-nups, and few do that, either.

Anyway, the article was a fascinating attempt to reinforce traditional norms while reporting on the dissolution of such norms.  In it, marriage is openly considered the only legitimate commitment, cohabitation is held out as much more fraught than marriage (despite the readers’ collective knowledge of how ugly and complicated divorce can be), women are presumed to be passive and easily swayed, and men are presumed to be taking advantage of lowered standards by avoiding marriage, which is—-even though statistical evidence proves otherwise—-assumed to be something women want more than men.  In reality, this trend indicates that all these assumptions are not as ingrained as conservatives might hope, for one big glaring reason that this article fails to really address, which is that it’s one more way that marriage is being de-privileged.  For both men and women—-but especially for women—-the wedding ring was considered entrance into the adult world in the past, and that’s becoming less true over time.  Now people don’t feel they need it in order to make investments, have children, and yes, make commitments.  And that’s a huge shift, one that can’t be covered up with a few empty warnings and nudge-nudge jokes about cows and milk.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:59 AM • (88) Comments

I have a vague recollection of a book I read in the 1970s about different lifestyles, including cohabitation.  It recommended that couples think about, discuss and put in writing how they wanted to handle money, common expenses and buying real estate together. And I think it made the point that even if a couple decided to officially marry, it was still a good idea to go through this process and it didn’t mean you were contemplating a divorce.

Comment #1: PurpleGirl  on  01/05  at  12:34 PM

Boy, the Times seems to really be hittin’ it hard recently. I wonder what they’re afraid of?

Hey, at least the article didn’t get into reading habits. Who knows how many of these happily unmarried couples have never seen the feral, macho light of Mailer and Updike?

I’m sure Ms. Roiphe knows the answer to that. Instinctively.

Comment #2: keirdubois  on  01/05  at  12:43 PM

My parents split up their marriage, sans pre-nuptial, and it was a ten year nightmare. Then my mom bought a house with her fellah, sans “pre-pre-nuptial,” and it was a two year nightmare. Then my dad dumped his new wife, with a pre-nuptial, and it was over in a month.

I see that pro-marriage, heterosexist thread you are talking about here, but it is really wrapped up in propping up a happily-ever-after narrative. And if you buy in, the right way or the wrong way, it really will trap you.

“With a married couple that would probably be handled with the divorce,” he said. Same taste, less filling? Dream on.

Comment #3: humanadverb  on  01/05  at  01:03 PM

My wife & I bought our house two years before we got married. My sister & her husband bought their house a year or so before they got married. Interestingly, the world keeps turning.

When we bought our house we had no idea of when, or if, we would get married. We didn’t even move in together (a year before buying the house) until after we had dated for 3 years. If I had told her that I would only buy the house with her if we were “for sure” going to get married, we never would have bought it.

Comment #4: Mark  on  01/05  at  01:07 PM

Indeed this is nothing new. My parents bought their house while they were still dating, a half-century ago. My mother, then 24, was described as a “spinster” in the legal documents.

Comment #5: Hector B.  on  01/05  at  01:08 PM

my now-husband and I actually bought and paid off our house while cohabitating.  It wasn’t difficult at all to put the house in both our names, even though we weren’t married—lots of real estate is owned by various kinds of partnerships that aren’t marriage.
However, it was long ago when we got that mortgage (1985) and the lending institution’s banker was a complete pig who “assured” us that my (small and insecure at the time) income didn’t matter, even though I was going to be a co-owner!
It was just another incentive to pay off the mortgage as soon as possible!

Comment #6: elisabeth51  on  01/05  at  01:09 PM

Or, in some cases, only one of you owned it, so the other one is free and clear to walk away, with minimal tears and drama and threats.  I suppose you could say the non-mortgage-signer person in that case isn’t “protected”, but since he or she would be paying rent anyway, it actually ends up being exactly the same in the end.

IIRC, in most states, if you’re married but only one person’s name is on the mortgage, you both still gain equity in the house so, no, it’s not just like being a renter.  This is one of those things that was changed in the 1970s where a lot of women found themselves divorced and without assets because their now-ex-husband’s name was on the mortgage so, legally, they had no equity in the house despite contributing to the household all of those years.

This is what kind of worries me when you go off on these particular rants:  the protections that are set up for married couples were set up that way for a reason, namely that women were getting screwed in the divorce and being left with nothing.  You can argue that the world has changed enough that we don’t have to worry about that anymore, but you can’t argue that it was totally irrational for legislators to decide that it was a bad thing for a 50-year-old housewife to be left with no assets because everything was in her husband’s name.

Comment #7: Mnemosyne  on  01/05  at  01:13 PM

I’m in the middle of a divorce right now, and even if you bought while you weren’t married, if you are married for 10 years or more, that house would be considered marital property and would be divided either equitably or evenly, depending on whether you live in a community property state.

We’re getting divorced without lawyers, so we reached an agreement together on how the equity in our house is going to be divided. I’m getting more than he is, because I have been doing all the work to get the house ready to go on the market while he’s off spending his weekends with his extremely young girlfriend.

And when the house is sold, I’m planning to buy something all by my womanly self.

Comment #8: maurinsky  on  01/05  at  01:19 PM

For the longest time while reading this, I couldn’t figure out why buying a house would mean putting an engagement on hold. Totally forgot that engagement means spending a gazillion dollars on a ring or else it doesn’t count! Bah. Such a scam.

Comment #9: Phoebe Fay  on  01/05  at  01:22 PM

Well, I’m not so sure the underlying notion that marriage and cohabitation are actually distinct endeavours is all that vile.

  I certainly agree that people who are cohabiting are not necessarily less committed than married people—especially if they are gay and can’t legally get married. But lets get real—marriage is a legal status that confers many rights and benefits on your partner *especially* when it comes to jointly owning and inheriting property, health care, insurance, and rights and responsibilities with respect to children.  If you are actually intending to stay with the other person long term (even if you are mistaken) refusing to get married as a unilateral decision is a pretty hostile act—its a gesture that says “this relationship is probably temporary.”  I didn’t click the link so I’m not able to evaluate the actual, no doubt fake, quotes in the article but any person who enters into a complex, long term, financial deal or the irreversible step of having children, with a sexual partner who is refusing to become a legal partner *when you want them to* is asking for trouble. That’s as true for men as for women, btw.  If a guy said he was going to share ownership of an illiquid asset with a woman who was refusing to marry him and have children with him we’d say that their values/expectations were out of whack and buying a piece of property (however financially sensible that is) or having children with this person is, perhaps, premature.

I agree with mnemosyne that divorce law is much more complex than you give it credit for being, and in some cases was designed to protect the weaker party. But I also agree with your point in the essay which is that the same level of caution/pre-nup/estate planning ought to go in to marital assets, children, etc… that goes in to pre-nups for unmarried partners. But having gone to the trouble of having drawn up a will for my husband and myself and triaged all possible outcomes I can assure you that its hard enough doing it thinking of death as the dissolver of the union, let alone imagining doing it in the future based on the notion that your spouse (or you) are leaving the marriage voluntarily.

aimai

Comment #10: aimai  on  01/05  at  01:29 PM

Totally forgot that engagement means spending a gazillion dollars on a ring or else it doesn’t count! Bah. Such a scam.

Yup, the ring or the downpayment; the wedding or the downpayment.

My sister and her long-term boyfriend are purchasing a house. They looked at all the options, and decided that their saved money should go to the downpayment, because it was the best option. I consider them to be being at least partly smart.

The partly-dumb part is (a) thinking they need the diamond ring, and (b) thinking they need the “big-money” wedding if they really want to get married. We spent $5000ish on ours, and sometimes I think even that was too much (although for 175 people, around Chicago, in 2001, it was a fairly inexpensive wedding).

Comment #11: hp  on  01/05  at  01:33 PM

@ Mnemosyne #7:

Don’t put too much faith in the legal system to protect the weaker party in a divorce. I’ve had many conversations with a law school friend around my parent’s divorce (here in progressive California), and she can’t believe what a good deal my mom got. Her read of the law pretty much should have put my mom in the poor house. I have learned subsequently that the judge was actually a bleeding heart progressive, so that explains a lot. Imagine if he’d been a reactionary scumbag.

If people don’t negotiate for what’s fair up front, they really put themselves at risk. And there is an awful lot of pressure to believe in happily ever after, instead.

Comment #12: humanadverb  on  01/05  at  01:44 PM

@ aimai #10

Consider, you’re 26 and everyone is telling you that the time has never been better to buy a house, what with the crash and all. You’re not sure but that $8k tax credit sure looks enticing, plus you’ve had a good job for three years and you’ve got a nice chunk in your savings that isn’t working for you. Things have been a little rocky with your long-time girlfriend, though, but you’ve been through some counseling and are working it out.

Do you get married and buy a house together? Or do you keep working it out, buy a place together with a “pre-prenuptial,” and start rolling your rent checks into equity that can be divided up later? Or dump her and keep looking for The One?

Waiting to find your soulmate just doesn’t always make sense. Personally or financially.

Comment #13: humanadverb  on  01/05  at  01:57 PM

My parents have always told my sisters and I that no matter what we choose - marriage or living together or living alone but spending most of the time with a SO - that finances have to be discussed. If you can’t talk about what you’re making, what you think are reasonable expenses, and what are reasonable expectations for contributing to a hosehold then as fun as it is you aren’t ready to be in a longer-term relationship with the person.*

And partly because of that I think that my parents’ divorce went smoother than it would otherwise have gone. The emotional side was painful for everyone, but the finances were easy; neat and logical, the lawyers were shocked (what with the acrimony being expressed whenever they saw each other).

*ok, my mom’s line is that you aren’t ready to be in *any* relationship, but I think that’s taking it a step too far. A little fun without total financial openness is fine by me… it’s when they could affect my credit score that it’s time to have a chat about where we both really stand.

Comment #14: kodiak  on  01/05  at  01:59 PM

I bought my own house in 2005, after years on end of renting with boyfriends and alone (and sometimes with boyfriends, but I paid all the bills.

This house is MINE. MINE MINE MINE. And I like it that way. But then, while I’m a bit too young to be a DFH, and a tad too young to be a second waver, I *am* a feminist. And I love knowing that this is MINE and I won’t ever have to sell it to satisfy some legal agreement. grin

Comment #15: Broce  on  01/05  at  02:02 PM

Yes, seconding the remark that if you live together long enough in most states, you are common-law married, and thus splitting up assets can be just as complicated (esp. if children are involved) as for any married couple.

Sans children, it really comes down to money and assets (time invested/support being counted as an asset as well). And just as with dividing inheritances, it can be a real bear. But then the more your life is entangled with another person’s, the more they can screw you over if they decide to, so that’s just part of the risks of having long-term relationships at all.

I suppose a long-term couple with separate residences and no children would have it the easiest.

Comment #16: emjaybee  on  01/05  at  02:02 PM

If a guy said he was going to share ownership of an illiquid asset with a woman who was refusing to marry him and have children with him..

I don’t believe in marriage (anachronistic institution rooted in sexism and male ownership of women) and I don’t want children.  In fact, the very notion of bringing children into the world to cement a relationship is repulsive to me but I’m pretty sure it’s why a lot of people have kids. 

It’s like Amanda says, institutions should exist for people not the other way around.

Comment #17: DonnaDiva  on  01/05  at  02:03 PM

I don’t think Mnemosyne, or I, am under any illusions about divorce law for women. I know several divorced and divorcing women and without exception every single one of them except the one who is personally fabulously wealthy has been dragged through hell.

And I’m not at all opposed to the logic of buying property, or any other financial or social arrangement, with non-marital partners. I’d see nothing wrong or even slightly dangerous about unmarried friends buying property together. Because the expectations are different.  Equity is understood differently. Relative contributions are understood differently.

Anyone here remember the movie Joy Luck Club? There is one married couple who have taken over, into their marriage, the rules they came up with when they were merely dating: they each pay only for what they eat, they pay equal shares in the house mortgage although the husband makes more than the wife?  The wife’s mother recoils from this too businesslike, inhuman, and ultimately sterile relationship. Its sterile because marriage and all love relationships (whether between partners or between parents and children) must go beyond the merely businesslike to survive and thrive.  That’s what makes marriages and long term partnerships so hard to divide financially and socially when they do come to an end—because one partner or the other is always in emotional or financial debt to the other. Sometimes the partnership see saws pretty wildly. In healthy relationships you know that your sacrifice, or gesture, one year will be repaid long term by an equal and opposite sharing later. When the marriage/partnership ends, however, there is no later.  This is one of the reasons that marriages with children, and in which one partner has taken on the task of raising the children while the other one works, or partnerships in which one partner paid for the education of the other partner (a very classic fifties/sixties kind of marriage, by the way)—because the natural reciprocity of the relationship can’t easily be made whole when a line is arbitrarily drawn.

This is as true in other societies, btw, in all complex property owning and family relationships. My fieldwork was on nepali family property law and that is both extremely detailed as to the rules of property division and extremely complicated by the slow flow of ownership, labor, and production throughout the growing season. By that I mean that family members who share land and labor for years and years can end up “endebted” to junior partners for their labor at one season, or for part of the family lifetime, and that “debt” gets paid off when the family splits the property.  Hm. This is so complicated I’d better abandon the essay. Because in fact I think that American notions of equality and family co-sharing during the life of the family have some serious flaws compared to more naked Nepali notions of co-ownership leading to a natural division of property late in family life *when families dissolve.*  The principle issue is that *all* Nepali families are assumed to dissolve as a partnership at some time—and everyone works towards that goal and with that in mind when they do work for the family. While american families are believed/mythically not to dissolve, so individuals who act, within the marriage, as though they are hoarding or hiding or planning to structure the dissolution in advance are understood to be acting in bad faith.

aimai

Comment #18: aimai  on  01/05  at  02:11 PM

It occurs to me that, if one person in a couple really wants to get married, and the other person in the couple has no intention of ever marrying the other, this is going to cause problems down the road.  Whether real estate comes into play or not.

Comment #19: The Opoponax  on  01/05  at  02:15 PM

“If you are not married, you have to fill in the blanks,”

So, what?  Everyone should default to getting married, just in case they ever break up and have an argument over who bought season 3.5 of Battlestar?

Comment #20: The Opoponax  on  01/05  at  02:17 PM

“IIRC, in most states, if you’re married but only one person’s name is on the mortgage, you both still gain equity in the house so, no, it’s not just like being a renter.”

I read that as meaning if a cohabiting, non-married couple splits up.  Like if a couple shack up in the house one of them already owns, or if half a couple is desperate to homeown and the other is in no hurry to sign onto a 30-year commitment.  In which case, yes, it’s pretty much just like being a renter, and if you weren’t cohabiting with a homeowner, you’d have been paying rent somewhere else, so it’s no big loss.

Comment #21: preying mantis  on  01/05  at  02:18 PM

And thank you, DonnaDiva, for totally misunderstanding my point which is that people shouldn’t be in financial or social and emotional relationships with people that they don’t share common values and goals with.  Don’t marry people if you want children and they only want to amass property, and don’t buy property with someone hoping that they will marry you and share childrearing *if they don’t share those goals.* 

But even more beside the point, thank you for asserting, sans evidence, that people have children just to “cement a relationship.”

” In fact, the very notion of bringing children into the world to cement a relationship is repulsive to me but I’m pretty sure it’s why a lot of people have kids. “

You know what? I’m pretty sure lots of people insist on not having kids to cement relationships with other people who don’t want kids. That’s actually a perennial of the advice columns: people have mismatched ideas about what they want, with whom, when, all the time. Wanting children isn’t a weirder or more awful desire than not wanting children—so long as you are well matched and share what you want with your partner. Your assumption that people produce children to “cement” relationships, and that that is more self interested and sick than refraining from children to “cement” relationships is really weird.  I’d put it higher: its kind of assholish.  Men and women have always wanted to have children, and have had children, regardless of their marital or relationship situation. Now that we have contraception and can prevent pregnancy while still having sex both men and women *continue to like having children* and continue adopting and raising children, inside and outside of relationships, because they like children.  If you don’t, more power to you. But don’t insult the rather large majority of humanity that view children and the love of parent and child as one of the highest forms of partnering with others.

aimai

Comment #22: aimai  on  01/05  at  02:22 PM

This strikes me as very bad advice.  Not the part where you have an agreement going into the mortgage—-that’s just smart—-but the notion that the marriage certificate just takes care of your business and you don’t have to worry about it.

Your impulse is correct.  My parents were married for twenty years, and had been married for almost ten when they bought the house I grew up in.  And yet when they divorced the What About The House issue loomed large.  It wasn’t just a painless transaction thanks to the magic of a marriage license.

If anything, I think not being married frees people up to think about the what ifs, whereas it’s extremely taboo to contemplate that stuff if you buy a house with your husband.

Comment #23: The Opoponax  on  01/05  at  02:25 PM

aimai, I see a great deal of peril in the ebb-and-flow relationship model you’re describing. I’ve heard a rule of thumb, “Always put in at least 60%, because you can be sure the other person thinks they’re doing at least 60% too.” When my last, six-year relationship split up, we talked about this, and each felt like we’d been putting in 80%.

When people split up, there tend to be hurt feelings. It is more than just rejection, it is betrayal of everything you’ve sacrificed making things work along the way. Some people can handle a more philosophical perspective, but it is a lot more common for folks to get offended and start demanding “what’s fair.” That’s what divorce court sorts out, and it is a lot easier if you both worked out fair between yourselves before feelings got hurt. People break up because they change, and the person you’re divorcing is not the person you married.

I haven’t seen/read Joy Luck Club, but the point strikes me as a nonstarter. I don’t understand why that’s a sterile relationship, but I do see how it is counterproductive—the person with a bigger income builds an investment portfolio because the other can’t afford 50% of a bigger mortgage payment? Still, if that works for them, great!

In a world where women can expect to earn 70-odd percent of what their partner does, or where trade-offs between shitty-income and good-insurance guide career decisions, it strikes me as unrealistic. (And stupid.) I envision something that articulates the boundaries of community property, and then divides that 50-50. But that’s just me.

Comment #24: humanadverb  on  01/05  at  02:35 PM

Do you get married and buy a house together? Or do you keep working it out, buy a place together with a “pre-prenuptial,” and start rolling your rent checks into equity that can be divided up later? Or dump her and keep looking for The One?

Waiting to find your soulmate just doesn’t always make sense. Personally or financially

This is where I suggest you buy a house on your own and if your significant other wants to live with you, he/she can pay you rent.

Like Broce, I bought my own damn house, sans boyfriend or husband in my early 20s. It was a tiny, 600 sq foot, fixer, but it was all mine. It was a good investment and 5 years later I sold it and bought a place with my husband after we got married.

Comment #25: Olivia  on  01/05  at  02:50 PM

That first quote makes zero sense.

Unless the state of the economy and the housing market is in fact directly tied to whether or not that particular couple is engaged..

I think we need to get them drunk in vegas soon…. for the good of the country.

Comment #26: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/05  at  03:02 PM

Yes, seconding the remark that if you live together long enough in most states, you are common-law married, and thus splitting up assets can be just as complicated (esp. if children are involved) as for any married couple.

That’s not correct.  Common law marriage is rare throughout the country and getting rarer.  Only a handful of states recognize it.  I think you live in Texas, though, which is in this minority.

Putting children aside: in most states judges who preside over property fights during a breakup will focus on whether the (hetero) couple is married or unmarried.  If you’re unmarried, and poorer than your partner, and have a compelling story about how you invested in the relationship, you might be able to receive some of the property titled in your partner’s name.  But the odds would be against you.  Judges think that a hetero couple that eschews marriage did so for its own reasons, and should not have the marriage label slapped on it.

Comment #27: Unree  on  01/05  at  03:06 PM

Give me a fucking break, aimai.  Our father told my sister and me right to our faces that he and our mother had us in an attempt to save their failing marriage.  Needless to say, it didn’t work and she and I have hundreds of hours in shrink’s offices to show for it.  Look, I know parenthood is a third rail in our society and parents are accustomed to automatic deference everywhere else but this is a blog where we can discuss everything in an honest and open manner.  Sometimes that involves touching third rails.  Oh well.

Comment #28: DonnaDiva  on  01/05  at  03:08 PM

This is what kind of worries me when you go off on these particular rants:  the protections that are set up for married couples were set up that way for a reason, namely that women were getting screwed in the divorce and being left with nothing.

I’m incredibly skeptical of the idea that marriage laws were set up to benefit women.  That would make them unique in the legal world, very very unique.  It would also fly in the face of all other evidence that marriage primarily benefits men at women’s expense—-women’s income goes down after marriage while men’s goes up, women’s rights are restricted, women lose free time while men gain, women even gain weight while men lose.  And considering that women’s income goes down after divorce while men’s goes up, I’m further skeptical of this theory that marriage exists to protect women.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/05  at  03:09 PM

If you are actually intending to stay with the other person long term (even if you are mistaken) refusing to get married as a unilateral decision is a pretty hostile act—its a gesture that says “this relationship is probably temporary.”

I beg to differ.  For me, not marrying is a way of saying, “I trust and cherish you enough that I don’t feel the need to trap you, and I’m secure enough in myself to believe that if this relationship comes to an end, I can handle it.”  I realize the equation is different for other people, but for my relationship, it sure all hell doesn’t indicate that it’s temporary.  It just indicates that we are resisting a patriarchal institution because of the baggage it carries.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/05  at  03:14 PM

Someone who can blithely say “that would be handled during the divorce” as if there is a magic Divorce Fairy who leaves a Brand New Life on your pillow in the night….is just too sheltered to live. Let me guess? Real estate broker? In Manhattan? This person hasn’t even SPOKEN to an “average” American in at least 25 years.

Everything he or she says is more or less dismissible outright.

Comment #31: Well, what?  on  01/05  at  03:16 PM

Yes, seconding the remark that if you live together long enough in most states, you are common-law married,

From what I understand, only if one of you fights it.  If one of you bought the house and the other agreed up front to merely pay rent, and both of you agree to that decision during the break-up, the courts need never know.  Not so much with marriage.  A whole lot of people I’ve known managed to suss this out without even calling a lawyer, and that includes my last break-up, where there was ugliness and fighting over finances.  I shudder to think what would have happened should I have been dumped into the legal system to get away.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/05  at  03:19 PM

Putting children aside: in most states judges who preside over property fights during a breakup will focus on whether the (hetero) couple is married or unmarried.  If you’re unmarried, and poorer than your partner, and have a compelling story about how you invested in the relationship, you might be able to receive some of the property titled in your partner’s name.  But the odds would be against you.  Judges think that a hetero couple that eschews marriage did so for its own reasons, and should not have the marriage label slapped on it.

I think you would need more than a compelling story - you’d probably want a paper trail of some sort!

Comment #33: maurinsky  on  01/05  at  03:21 PM

I think this is a bit of an overreaction.  I’m not going to disagree with you about the Times agenda with this type of story, but for many couples, getting a house before getting married is putting the cart before the horse.  And it is for reasons you identify.  A marriage is a standard contract, which happens to provide a lot of protection for the lesser earning partner.  And if you buy a house with your partner in your partner’s name, contribute payments to the mortgage, and then break up after a couple years, you may be even more screwed than if you were a non earning partner during that time period.  I think this article indirectly raises two salient issues.  First, make sure you work out the legal details if you want to do this.  Second, think about what kind of relationship you have with your partner and make sure it is the one you want.

Comment #34: mpowell  on  01/05  at  03:22 PM

I beg to differ.  For me, not marrying is a way of saying, “I trust and cherish you enough that I don’t feel the need to trap you, and I’m secure enough in myself to believe that if this relationship comes to an end, I can handle it.”

Which is all well and good if your partner agrees with that interpretation. And because you’re a savvy dater, you have chosen a partner who agrees.

That said, it’s really not at all uncommon for people to choose a partner who does NOT agree on this point, but who never says so directly. Hence the “unilateral” part of the original statement. To lead someone on like that is absolutely a hostile act.

Comment #35: Well, what?  on  01/05  at  03:23 PM

Amanda, I am pretty sure Mnemosyne isn’t arguing that marriage law, in general, was designed to benefit women, but that the laws were changed in response to some really egregious screwing-over of women in the 1970’s, in order to take a condition that was designed to be inequitable and make it more equitable. She’s saying that *now*, in part because of the work of feminists in the 1970’s, divorce laws are designed with protections in them that cohabiting couples cannot make use of. The things you describe in which women’s income goes down after divorce used to be *much*, much worse before the 1970’s reforms.

Of course, in my opinion, cohabiting couples shouldn’t need to make use of them, because it should be handled via contract. If you’re cohabiting, it’s assumed that your money is your money and his money is his money, and as long as you stay in the workforce, that’s a perfectly reasonable assumption to make. The current state of marriage law, the legal condition in which his assets can be seen as your assets even if you did not contribute to them monetarily, is based on the idea that women deserve some compensation for the unpaid work they probably did doing housework and child care when they quit their jobs to have a baby and become a housewife. If a woman never actually does this, then the financial protections of marriage are pretty irrelevant and may even damage her under some conditions.

I believe that no one should ever quit their job to be supported by their partner unless they are married, or unless they have a contract spelling out that the partner will pay them for household services and so they have a legally recognized income. As long as you both work, though, marriage asset law doesn’t really help all that much unless one of you dies (in which case marriage entitles the survivor to all the property that the deceased owned, with no hassle, including “property” such as pensions and federal government stipends and health insurance policies.)

BTW, what do you mean by “women’s rights are restricted” by marriage? I know of no legal restriction of women’s rights vs. men’s rights by marriage, not in America anyway; certainly there are social pressures placed on women by marriage that aren’t placed on men, but social pressures do not restrict our rights—that phrase always describes something done at the level of the legal system.

Comment #36: Alara J Rogers  on  01/05  at  03:27 PM

I also think there’s value for women in not assuming that a marriage license offers protection.  A lot of divorce horror stories come from women mistakenly thinking that the law is there to protect them in the case of divorce, when of course, the law is largely there to protect “the family” (read: the patriarchy), and at best a few feminist reforms will be there to cut them a break. 

Believing your husband has legal obligations to you that he may not—-especially if he can outspend you in divorce court—-can really change a woman’s decision making.  For instance, that belief might incline you to set aside your career to <s>support his</s> raise the children, whereas if you weren’t legally married and you knew that you had no more than what you personally owned, you might really think a lot harder about the potential consequences of becoming dependent on your partner. 

That’s why I’m so annoyed at the idea that marriage is automatically more committed.  More dependent is not more committed.  Commitment is felt, and the high divorce rate demonstrates beyond a shadow of a doubt that when that commitment isn’t felt in the heart anymore, it doesn’t exist.  We all want a safety net against heartbreak, but there just isn’t one.  Life is just risky.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/05  at  03:29 PM

Which is all well and good if your partner agrees with that interpretation. And because you’re a savvy dater, you have chosen a partner who agrees.

Marriage is definitely no protection for being foolish enough to enter into a relationship with someone who doesn’t share your values.  All that you’re asking for in that case is a very, very messy divorce, which inclines me to think you should be even more wary of marrying, since that’s where it’s going.

Comment #38: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/05  at  03:32 PM

I hear a lot of people who seem to be saying the marriage contract is somehow predictable, even reasonable, in how it helps two people dissolve a relationship. It is a one-size-fits-all contract/law, which means, given the diversity of human experiences, there is a LOT wiggle room.

There’s wiggle room in there for a lot of unexpected shit to happen. Which is why it is so expensive to have a adversarial divorce—you need a good lawyer just to protect yourself. And there’s always a chance the judge is an asshole, or misunderstands how your relationship worked, and you get screwed no matter how good your lawyer is.

There’s a lot about the way that Amanda is describing her relationship that makes me nervous. Marriage or no, work it out and make sure that the big-ticket items, like alimony and division of real estate, will resolve in a way you can both agree on. And write a contract-that-is-very-specific-to-you.

To do it any other way feels very, very risky to me. People change, not always for the better.

Comment #39: humanadverb  on  01/05  at  03:33 PM

Amanda, I am pretty sure Mnemosyne isn’t arguing that marriage law, in general, was designed to benefit women, but that the laws were changed in response to some really egregious screwing-over of women in the 1970’s, in order to take a condition that was designed to be inequitable and make it more equitable.

I agreed in my response that there were reforms.  But I’m skeptical of the idea that they are as effective as women are led to believe, especially when they’re making decisions like quitting their job to support their husband’s career.  The evidence is just not there to suggest that getting divorced works out so well for women, financially speaking.  The only people who even seem to believe that are MRAs, who are paranoid freaks.  A few legal rewrites to mollify the situation helped, sure, but they didn’t really change much.  Even now, it’s true that a man who contests custody is nearly as likely to win as in the 60s.

Comment #40: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/05  at  03:35 PM

DonnaDiva,
I’m sure your horrid father did say that, and it may even have been true. But its not *generically true* of all relationships and all people who have children. Its not even partially true of most relationships and people who have children. And even if it were true that sometimes people have children in order to cement a relationship its not true that doing so is the proximate cause of the break up of the relationship—maybe its the making of the relationship. I’m really sorry for you and I agree that you are entitled to discuss, at the top of your lungs, your peculiar circumstances. Just don’t project them onto the rest of humanity.

And as for Amanda’s point, your skepticism is utterly besides the point. Divorce laws are very complex and can’t be understood as merely the product of patriarchy, or anti patriarchy, or paternalism, or feminism. There were long struggles to make them the way they are now and they are very historically contigent. Be that as it may, there were periods when some aspects, certainly not all, took into account the power differential between men and women, the financial differential, etc… There’s a reason why divorce laws are under constant attack by the Men’s Rights Nuts—because some aspects are still considered overly helpful for women and dependent children.

Second of all, of course people in voluntary, legally unmediated, romantic relationships can see what they are doing as some kind of ultimate pledge of faith/open mindedness. But “I trust you enough not to trap you?” Gag me with a huge, giant, textbook of sexist assumptions about marriage and how its a “trap” that prevents men (especially men!) from living the life they are presumed to want to live outside of marriage.  Jeezus, was there ever anything more ritually sexist and misogynist than the assumption that people “trap” other people into marriage?

My great grandparents were anarchists back when anarchism was…well…for real and no one got married and everyone was in to polyamory—well, except my great grandma who refused to let Emma Goldman sleep with my great grandfather. They were married until death, for about sixty years. My grandparents too. My parents just hit the 56th year mark. Marriage didn’t make their relationships stronger, but it didn’t make them weaker either.  I get that some people feel some duty to reject marriage on some imaginary feminist grounds but its absurd to think that one can’t be as free, and as good a feminist, inside marriage as out.  Your values aren’t more real, or more realized, because you are in a voluntary relationship than because my spouse and I chose to solemnize our relationship in some way.

Just because you feel—right now—that not marriage is some kind of pledge of faith doesn’t mean that marriage, for many people, can’t have the same values.  And it doesn’t mean that voluntary, legallyl unmediated romantic relationships can’t have exactly as abusive aspects as a bad marriage.  People get trapped by all kinds of social forms, and they can be liberated by their participation in institutions. Its as much a function of the people and their history with the institutions, sexuality, money, age, and family as anything else. 

BTW: the point I was making about relationships having an ebb and flow wasn’t to say that that was good, or bad, or fifty fifty just that *every* good relationship involves some ebb and flow and *every* break up involves hard feelings about the drawing of an arbitrary line down putting one set of prestations/gifts/gestures/acts of faith into the past and cutting off reciprocity in the future. *Of course* everyone thinks they are doing 80 percent of the work, at the same time.  That’s human nature.  That happens in every relationship whether the couple is married or not, and its a problem in every relationship primarily when the relationship is breaking up.

aimai

Comment #41: aimai  on  01/05  at  03:37 PM

humanadverb, married or not, I would not be eligible for alimony.  Alimony is largely a myth in this country.  I certainly hope no women who are married believe that it could actually happen to them; odds are high against them.  Many states (like Texas) don’t have it at all.

I’m not stupid, believe me.  Skeptical of patriarchal institutions doesn’t equal stupid.  In fact, I’d argue the opposite.  I’m probably one of the few people in a situation that’s emotionally safe enough that I can express out loud what I need to protect myself should a break-up happen, and my boyfriend, who agrees with my values, would certainly not expect me to create a financial trap for myself in order to assure him that I’m not going anywhere.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/05  at  03:39 PM

Marriage is definitely no protection for being foolish enough to enter into a relationship with someone who doesn’t share your values.

I didn’t argue that it was. I argued that deceiving a partner about your intentions re: marriage is, in fact, hostile, regardless of the reasons behind it. Aimai was not saying that it’s hostile to not want to marry—she was saying it’s hostile to manipulate a partner into other legally binding decisions, all the while knowing they expect you to marry them as a part of making those decisions.

Comment #43: Well, what?  on  01/05  at  03:40 PM

Divorce laws are very complex and can’t be understood as merely the product of patriarchy, or anti patriarchy, or paternalism, or feminism.

It’s not that complicated.  They were set up as an expression of the patriarchy, were reformed for chivalrous reasons in ways that weren’t really helpful, and then were subject to a few feminist reforms that have been inadequate.  During all this time, marriage has been sold to women as their main life goal and duty, with assurances that marriage offers protection and economic value.  This hasn’t been demonstrated in the statistics, but in fact, the opposite is true—-the things that people consider “value” in life, including money and free time, decrease for married women.  And the hope that you’ll get that investment back in the event of a divorce is not something you should gamble on.  Odds are about those of roulette’s.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/05  at  03:41 PM

Our father told my sister and me right to our faces that he and our mother had us in an attempt to save their failing marriage.

@DonnaDiva, your father’s reasons for having children do not apply to all people who choose to have children.

Comment #45: Olivia  on  01/05  at  03:43 PM

What’s funny is that if marriage actually was less risky than cohabitation, then people would jump into it much more quickly.  If marriage was really more about being pragmatic and protecting your interests and reducing risk, then people would get married and divorced repeatedly, instead of doing what they do now, which is to engage in serial monogamy without marriage before drifting into it with someone who they believe they’ve thoroughly vetted for commitment and trustworthiness.

In other words, to take the risk of marriage, you’re advised to have already reduced the risk.  Which implies that marriage is the risk.  And that, of course, is true.  Regardless of the laws on paper, we all know that it’s just harder to dissolve a marriage than dump a partner.  That’s the point of marriage, to make it harder to leave.

You can’t really have it both ways.  If it’s harder to leave, that implies a greater risk entering it.

Comment #46: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/05  at  03:48 PM

Amanda, I’m just brining up alimony as one of those potential big ticket items that should be resolved in a prenuptial, not referencing your particular situation, which I don’t know enough about to comment on. I know you’re not stupid—and I’m not worried about you. But the way you described your situation does make me personally nervous, because it is poorly defined. Because people change. (It is fair to call me a pessimist at this point.)

As for alimony—that’s one of the ways my parent’s divorce broke for my mom that was really good for her. Ten years worth, as long as it took her to finish a bachelor’s degree, and when my dad took her back to court because she wasn’t doing her part, she ended up with a larger monthly check. Yep, it is almost nonexistent in marriage law, even 20 years ago.

This is my point about how ANYTHING can happen in court. Judges have a ton of discretion. (And made the wrong decision in this case—twice.)

Comment #47: humanadverb  on  01/05  at  03:49 PM

What’s funny is that if marriage actually was less risky than cohabitation, then people would jump into it much more quickly.  If marriage was really more about being pragmatic and protecting your interests and reducing risk, then people would get married and divorced repeatedly,

Actually, at least in my region of the country (and socioeconomic bracket? But I’m in a fairly fluid bracket, so it’s hard to tell)—this is exactly what people do. They get married first in their very early 20s and have a couple kids.

Divorce #1 kicks in in the late 20s-early 30s. Marriage 2 follows within 4 or 5 years. Usually there’s at least 1 kid resulting from this marriage, and then the pair splits when the kid’s a toddler or in kindergarten. Aaaand then it’s on to Marriage #3!

Lather, rinse, repeat. Though not the kids part, after marriage 2.

Not saying it’s wise, just saying that it would seem some people DO consider it less risky than cohabitation, and behave accordingly.

Comment #48: Well, what?  on  01/05  at  03:52 PM

Alimony may not be a reality in many areas, but no-fault divorce + equal division of property has resulted in some pretty serious fuck-overs of women. One I’m thinking of right now was the breadwinner, pulled her husband’s ass out of the financial fire on more than one occasion, he went off and had an affair, but because of no-fault divorce, this was not allowed to be considered in the court. But the fact that she was the primary breadwinner WAS, and she ended up having to shell out a lot of money just to keep the house she’d been paying for all along.

I recognize that no-fault divorce is actually a net good thing (it prevents people from having to make shit up or hire detectives to end an unhappy marriage), but women need to realize that they can be just as badly screwed over by the system as men can be.

So, what happens? Very few people marry someone with the plan for divorce in mind, but it’s worth considering. My husband and I were too broke to get a pre-nup, but we both wanted one so that in case things went south, there was a plan in place and we wouldn’t be allowed to take our our anger inappropriately (or be spiteful little fucks). As it is, while no plans for divorce have yet surfaced, we’re pretty comfortable with who would get what, even the “children.” I think the biggest fight would be over the XBox, and it’s not like replacing one of those would be some financial impossibility.

Comment #49: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/05  at  03:54 PM

Amanda,
We’re all cross posting so our responses may not seem responsive to you, and I’m sorry for that.  I’m sure this will piss you off no little bit but your current relationships and the way you think about them are utterly shaped by your youth and your current status as child free.  Thats as it should be. In this modern world there is no reason to get married or to allow yourself to become interdependent with another person financially unless you have children and you need to work out a novel arrangement whereby one of you becomes, temporarily, the primary breadwinner while the other does the childcare. Or before you have a child with massive special needs. Or before you have a child and can’t support him and childcare on your salary alone.  But if you do intend to have children and you aren’t personally wealthy enough to do so while working full time and affording full time childcare, you may want to rethink your plan to consider your relationship totally “voluntary.”  Not because it becomes “involuntary” when you have children, but because your duties, or their father’s, persist even after the romantic part of the relationship ends.  That’s not to say that people should get married, or that it makes sense to get married in order to have children. I’m not arguing that at all (though you could make that argument). But just that the notion that one member ought never to trust the other enough to temporarily withdraw from the work force, or spend too much time on childcare is sort of an inversion of your argument that only people who don’t get married can really be said to have any faith in the relationship.  I find it ironic that you think that a totally “voluntary/unmarried/uninstituionalized” relationship is an appropriate pledge of faith in the meaningful quality of the relationship while a voluntary withdrawal from the work force in order to have children, or to rear them, is seen as delusional and dangerous. Both are delusional and dangerous and predicated on the notion that the love relationship is strong enough to continue as long as the parties need it to.  Both are leaps of faith.

Also, very few people (and very few women) get married *in order to avail themselves of the divorce courts* so the charge that women are mistaken in thinking that marriage grants them legal rights in divorce is absurd. People routinely get married—that’s why we call it the triumph of hope over experience—because they don’t imagine they will ever need divorce laws. Also, divorce laws are state by state and most people get married in one state and divorce, years later, in another. They simply don’t think that far ahead.  But marriage does guarantee some rights with regard to debts/ownership and transmission of property without tax liability. Thanks to the work of feminists marriage no longer enters so much into the issue of child support where bastardy used to be a bar to gaining support from the male parent.

aimai

aimai

Comment #50: aimai  on  01/05  at  03:55 PM

That said, it’s really not at all uncommon for people to choose a partner who does NOT agree on this point, but who never says so directly.

Which is the crux of the issue.  Shared ownership of real estate is just a really unfortunate complication.

Though the point I think Amanda was making is that you really can’t assume that an unmarried couple is not serious, or short term, just because they don’t have a marriage license.  One shouldn’t make assumptions about why people have chosen to be single at any given point in their lives.

Comment #51: The Opoponax  on  01/05  at  03:58 PM

@ aimai #50

So, I’m reading that as you being in favor of marriage-as-a-trap. Just as a two-way trap?

Comment #52: humanadverb  on  01/05  at  04:02 PM

I agree with Amanda’s point on that, Opo, and I’m firmly in the anti-marriage camp myself. I just felt like Aimai’s statement about hostility got taken the wrong way—only the UNILATERAL no-marriage decision is a hostile one.

A decision to not marry, agreed upon and embraced by both partners, is as good a sign of commitment as any.

Comment #53: Well, what?  on  01/05  at  04:04 PM

@33 maurinsky:
It’s not a paper trail you need—more like a very unusual story.  The following can do the trick IF the judge finds you attactive and compelling ... and you don’t live in a state like Illinois that is incredibly hostile to benefits for unmarried partners:
1.  A promise by your partner to share his or her wealth or to support you (it doesn’t have to be in writing if you can prove that the spoken promise was really said)
2.  in exchange for work or sacrifice from you, and
3.  gross disparity in wealth and
4.  evidence that you could have had property of your own if you’d been in the labor market rather than giving domestic services to your partner and
5.  evidence that the partner really did benefit from your investment.
Not likely to come together.  Better to write a prenup or pre-prenup.
But this picture could change.  In 2002 the nation’s leading family law experts wrote a proposed set of Principles that they said should govern the dissolution of family relationships; one of their rules is that an unmarried breakup should be treated the same as a married one.  Maybe judges will follow it someday.

Comment #54: Unree  on  01/05  at  04:05 PM

On the other hand…

Back in the eighties when housing prices were ramping up, several single people I knew bought houses together to “start building equity” so that someday they could afford their own homes. The couples included two single sisters, two young guys, a “platonic” male-female couple, and two married brothers.

The unrelated folks did write contracts to specify what would happen if either decided to cash out, say if they met their true love. In three of the cases the couples cashed out, using the profits for downpayments for their own places. The guy in the platonic couple found his true love before he and his friend found a house they could afford.

Comment #55: Hector B.  on  01/05  at  04:11 PM

Well, I just don’t get how unmarried couples purchasing real estate represents a threat to patriarchy.

Comment #56: Anony Mouse  on  01/05  at  04:13 PM

Anony Mouse—same way gay couples threaten patriarchy, or why they tell us it is better to have that kid than risk breast cancer and suicide with an abortion. Shutting down options that deviate from the narrative.

Comment #57: humanadverb  on  01/05  at  04:18 PM

More dependent is not more committed.

This. This is important, and is worth highlighting.

Comment #58: Entomologista  on  01/05  at  04:22 PM

You know, it’s at times like this I remember when the NYT was considered the paper for stuffy, stuck-up conservative pseudo-intellectuals. This they call liberal media?

Comment #59: BrianX  on  01/05  at  04:27 PM

that women are just so dumb they can’t see how men are exploiting sexual liberation to get the milk without buying the cow.

You know, after years and years and years of hearing THAT particular metaphor spewed, have NONE of the people who keep using it ever considered that maybe we don’t want to be owned?

Cow gives the milk away for free, cow keeps her freedom (and could easily stop giving said milk away and go elsewhere), vs cow is purchased—-from someone else, apparently—-and she STILL doesn’t get paid for the milk, but now it’s her duty to provide it ‘cause he owns her.

Stupid metaphor, but then, really kinda telling. Slavery is freedom, freedom is slavery. Can it die now, please?

Comment #60: Kyra  on  01/05  at  04:30 PM

I don’t think I’m either pro marriage, or against it, in general. I think people should do, and largely will do, what makes sense for them at the time—with very little real understanding or certain knowledge of what the future will bring.  I’ve been unmarried, in a relationship, and married with children. So far I haven’t been divorced. I’ve been surrounded, personally, by very happy marriages and seen a lot of unhappy marriages dissolve in ugly ways.  I’ve never seen a good marriage dissolve badly—that is, whenver I’ve seen an ugly divorce it was always totally predictable—one or the other of the parties was a total asshole to begin with and the marriage itself was ugly to watch.  I agree that divorce law is simply no protection against abusive behavior and usually becomes a method by which the more abusive partner continues to abuse until he or she gets a new job/spouse/or hobby.

I’m not as certain as Amanda is that abusive relationships can’t or won’t co-exist with mere cohabitation.  If one partner is very submissive and one abusive even “voluntary” and umediated by the state relationships can be very dangerous.  Add in children and the marital status of the parties is irrelevant. Men have been abusing their women and children for centuries with and without legal help/the marriage bond. 

The original question was: why is the NYT determined to present this perfectly ordinary story of a few couples buying property before they have a marital tie so annoying. Amanda asserts that its annoying because in each of the cited cases the woman is represented as slightly hesitant because she sees the house as part of the long term marriage relationship and the man is represented as thinking of the real estate as more important than/prior to the legal commitment.  I agree that that is annoying.  But a lot depends on how the couple is preparing to structure the financial decision about who pays, how much, and how ownership and control is apportioned. Its not *unreasonable* or overly romantic or unfeminist for a woman to think/argue that she would rather have the legal relationship formalized before the joint ownership of property.  Just as its not unreasonable/unromantic/or unfeminist for her to be willing to go into a joint ownership of property (formerly a long term commitment with a fifteen to thirty year mortgage) with a very well defined legal document specifying all rights and duties.

I think the thing which is getting lost here is that there is an old, and perhaps outdated, notion of property ownership which is quite hard and long term: mortgages used to be hefty, and you paid them slowly over time, and missing a payment/having rocky credit or a fragile work future can be very risky.  Its absolutely fine to enter into a joint ownership/mortgage paying agreement with a person with whom you are not married and it may well be more sensible than some of the people people choose as husbands/wives.  Plenty of people shouldn’t enter into these long term business deals *with* their husband or wife, too—as any quick perusal of the divorce courts will tell you since its at that point that people start detailing the weird credit history, defaults and defalcations of their spouses.

I think what bothered me about the NYT article is that it seems crazy to get into the home buying/long term relationship with someone when you haven’t decided whether or not they’d make good husband/wife material.  If I had a close male or female friend and the paperwork was tight enough I wouldn’t hesitate to buy property with them. Ditto with my spouse. But someone who was neither clearly one or the other—thinking about becoming one or leaving the relationship? No. And that is what was odd about the couples they were talking about—they were both couples in which the men and the women clearly were not certain about the nature and future of their relationship.

In fact, to revist the baby argument from another perspective to me the buying of a house with someone with whom you are in an indeterminate/potentially temporary romantic relationship (“we might get married…I don’t know… but the house prices are so low right now!”) seems like the real estate version of the imaginary biological time clock for women.  In both the cases in the article its men who have a very clear idea that “now is the best time to get this deal” pushing the women in their lives to buy the house. How is this any different, or better, than the partner in a relationship (whether male or female) who feels their personal biological clock ticking and decides unilaterally to have a baby because its “now or never” or “my eggs and sperm are at their best right now?”

Buying a house with someone with whom you are not fully committed isn’t as bad as having a baby with someone like that, but both are rather durable goods/relationships that, if they long outlast the relationship can be very problematic.

aimai

aimai

Comment #61: aimai  on  01/05  at  04:53 PM

I am getting really confused by your point, aimai.

First—are you saying there is no reason for a romantic, hetero couple not to get married if they are committed to each other? You’re swatting aside reasons given, to the point of offensively chiding Amanda for being immature. (Btw—she’s been pretty clear that she doesn’t want kids.)

Second—why would a platonic friendship be more stable than a not-quite-ready-to-be-married romance?

Granted, I love certain friends far more than I have any of my lovers, but we don’t go to counseling when we hit a rough patch. We take a break. I’ve been to counseling with my lovers because we’re trying to build something more functional and enduring, for the sake of kids, joint finances, and so on.

You think I should trust my friend who tells me to fuck off when I irritate him more than someone who is willing to take hours upon hours of time (and money) working out something that satisfies both of us?

Comment #62: humanadverb  on  01/05  at  05:07 PM

In both the cases in the article its men who have a very clear idea that “now is the best time to get this deal” pushing the women in their lives to buy the house. How is this any different, or better, than the partner in a relationship (whether male or female) who feels their personal biological clock ticking and decides unilaterally to have a baby because its “now or never” or “my eggs and sperm are at their best right now?”

If something changes, you can change the status of the home ownership in whatever way works for you.  When you’re tired of owning this house, you can sell it.  If you see another house you like better, you can drop the one in favor of the other.  If your priorities change, it’s not too hard to kick the house to the curb.  When you break up, you can make a rational decision about what should become of the house, up to and including just getting rid of the house and calling it a day.

You can’t do that with a person.  Once you bring a kid into the world, you are going to be stuck with it pretty much for the rest of your life.  Whether you’re married or not.

Comment #63: The Opoponax  on  01/05  at  05:15 PM

I recently saw a cohabitation situation turn very nasty after the couple split up.  I’m not sure of all the details, because it got really confusing, but it was as ugly as an ugly divorce.  They co-owned a house and cars, and splitting up those assets got ugly.

I really don’t think not getting married is a panacea for not having nasty property split arguments if you break up.  There’s a reason, in the last marriage thread, you mentioned judges using common-law marriage as a way to cut through the crap in cases where an unmarried couple was suing each other over property—declare them married so she can divorce them, is how you put it.  Legally, the framework of a divorce can sometimes simplify things.

(NC does not have common-law marriage and the couple in question was a same-sex couple, so even if we did, they could not have been declared married.)

Likewise, there’s nothing magic about getting married that makes property division more acrimonious.  If you and your ex can agree on how to split things up, even if it takes some fighting, at least in my state you can simply sign a written agreement and not go to court.  Then a judge has the authority to transfer title as necessary to carry out that agreement.

Obviously, marriage isn’t a sure protection against nasty property splits if you break up.  But I can’t agree that not getting married is a sure protection either.

Comment #64: snowmentality  on  01/05  at  05:42 PM

I think what bothered me about the NYT article is that it seems crazy to get into the home buying/long term relationship with someone when you haven’t decided whether or not they’d make good husband/wife material.  If I had a close male or female friend and the paperwork was tight enough I wouldn’t hesitate to buy property with them. Ditto with my spouse. But someone who was neither clearly one or the other—thinking about becoming one or leaving the relationship? No.

The issue to me is the idea that a romantic relationship is a continuum from “exchanged numbers” to “marriage”, and you can’t be truly committed unless you have arrived at point B. 

I would be about as likely to buy a home with someone I wasn’t married to but felt highly committed to and serious about (whether marriage was in the picture or not) as I would to buy a home with a close platonic friend.  Maybe in the right circumstances I would do it.  Same with a spouse, to be honest with you, but that might just by my New Yorkerness talking (lots of married people around here are not homeowners, and there’s no real stigma about renting).  Either it’s going to work out, or it’s not, and a magical certificate doesn’t prevent hurt feelings or lost money.

Comment #65: The Opoponax  on  01/05  at  05:44 PM

Oh, and as an addendum, I don’t think it’s fair to say that a committed yet unmarried couple is a less valid relationship than a married couple.  I think that’s the fallacy behind the Point A To Point B concept of romantic relationships.

Comment #66: The Opoponax  on  01/05  at  05:49 PM

You know, after years and years and years of hearing THAT particular metaphor spewed, have NONE of the people who keep using it ever considered that maybe we don’t want to be owned?

I agree.  There are so many issues with that analogy that go far beyond the slavery model of marriage.  It’s really telling when people equate sex to giving milk, because that defines sex as something that one person gives to another.  In most cases, it’s about a woman giving away her “milk” to a man.  It just highlights the strong myth that women don’t enjoy sex.  Rather than giving milk, it would be more accurate to describe it as exchanging milk.  Of course, that would make the whole metaphor fall apart.  It really is elucidating about the conservative view of sex as something that takes away from a woman but gives to a man.

Comment #67: bananacat  on  01/05  at  06:04 PM

Is an unmarried couple with kids more or less committed than a married couple without kids? I’m trying to figure out if I outrank my neighbors, because I’m petty and can only feel good about myself by trying to make sure that I’m a better person than they are.

Comment #68: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/05  at  06:05 PM

Every time I say, a propos of my own non-marriage to my male partner, “Why buy the pig when all you want is a little sausage?,” people get really offended, even though I always say it with a smile.  They think the expression is ... man-hating!  Everyone knows the pig is a smarter animal than the cow.

Comment #69: Unree  on  01/05  at  06:35 PM

I’m not at all arguing that a committed couple is not equal to a married couple—in commitment or in anything else. In the sections opopoponax disagrees with I’m arguing that when you buy a house with someone you be very clear on what basis you propose to share ownership, ditto with children. I think that platonic/friend couples, married couples, committed long term sexual partners can all have very clear ideas about what shared ownership does and doesn’t mean. I think that the men and women in the article are actually on a continuum from *very conventional* to breaking up—they are all described as rushing into the decision, feeling pressured to buy the house by costs and circumstance. And they each describe themselves or their partner as being in a different place with regard to the larger committment issue.

Also, I’d like to point out that houses are famously *illiquid*—you can’t, in fact, “just sell them” whenever you want and thus dissolve a partnership that’s not working out. Furthermore selling a house that one or both of you is living in can be a huge source of grievance. That’s why its way more complicated to join in with another person in buying a *home* as opposed to a rental unit or a property for flip. If two people are buying their *first home* with all the cultural and emotional implications that has and haven’t thought through, or haven’t agreed upon, how long they are planning to make that place a home, and haven’t thought through their relationship, I’d say its a very risky proposition to buy and try to share property. Because at the same time that one of you gets cold feet about the relationship and wants to end it he/she may also want to sell out the house.

I’m not saying these things don’t also apply to married couples. I’m saying that they especially apply to people who can’t make up their mind whether they are in a committed relationship. And the people in the story all privilige marriage but aren’t willing to commit to it. By definition they don’t have the same relationship amanda has with her boyfriend since in each case the women and the men aren’t in full agreement about how they view the house/marriage progression.

aimai

Comment #70: aimai  on  01/05  at  07:08 PM

But don’t insult the rather large majority of humanity that view children and the love of parent and child as one of the highest forms of partnering with others.

Wow defensive much?  Insult to humanity? BHAAAA. Please. I’ve put up with more insults by people questioning my choice to NOT have children. And why do you keep signing your name at the end of each comment?

Comment #71: pitbullgirl65  on  01/05  at  07:48 PM

they are all described as rushing into the decision, feeling pressured to buy the house by costs and circumstance.

There’s something I think should be clarified in this thread.

A LOT of New Yorkers feel pressured about real estate.  Especially New Yorkers who are young and have the means to buy and have a lot of class pressure about how you’re not really a legitimate person until you’re a homeowner.  And especially-especially people who fit the above criteria and are headed into their thirties and ALSO feel a lot of pressure about getting married and settling down.

I’ve known people who made bad real estate decisions because they thought they ought to buy a house, that it’s just what you do if you’re a successful adult.  So no, it doesn’t surprise me that there’s a confluence of folks who feel that pressure with folks who feel the Get Married And Make Babies pressure, and that their lives get hella fucked up from both.  Especially when both members of a couple don’t share both kinds of pressure equally.

Comment #72: The Opoponax  on  01/05  at  07:54 PM

That’s why its way more complicated to join in with another person in buying a *home* as opposed to a rental unit or a property for flip. If two people are buying their *first home* with all the cultural and emotional implications that has and haven’t thought through, or haven’t agreed upon, how long they are planning to make that place a home, and haven’t thought through their relationship, I’d say its a very risky proposition to buy and try to share property.

Well, sure.  There are all kinds of risks one can take in life.  This is just one of them.  I agree that it’s important not to get in over your head if you aren’t self-aware enough or assertive enough to deal with it.  But people do stupid things.  Whether they’re married or not.

Comment #73: The Opoponax  on  01/05  at  07:57 PM

Ah I can see aimai’s point. If you’re not a risk taker, you probably feel more comfortable in a defined relationship, whether “just friends” or “married couple” rather than in a perhaps fluid intermediate state, where one person can have a completely different understanding of where they stand.

Comment #74: Hector B.  on  01/05  at  08:06 PM

You know, I think it’s generally a terrible idea to go into any large commitment to something as a couple (or as friends or relatives, in fact) without carefully hashing out who’s going to be responsible for what in the case that something goes wrong, hopefully on paper, with bullet points. Marriage is a default contract for the formation of a shared household that Amanda, in particular, and various others feel strongly doesn’t serve the interests of as broad a group of romantic partners as they’re culturally construed to. I am willing to accept this point without further hypothetical examples (I have never lived through a divorce in my household, so I am willing to believe others have stronger anecdotes than I do). However, I am completely and utterly convinced that the general cultural idea that it’s wise to figure out where you stand with someone before you buy a house with them, have a baby with them, or put them through grad school is a good one, no matter how few fluffy white dresses are involved.

(Also, I still haven’t figured out what all these couples with carefully-delineated separate checking accounts do if they have children, assuming any of them do. I have this vision of Father sitting outside the local bookstore in the car, smoking a pipe, waiting to be told how much his cut of the children’s school pencils and notebooks will be. I am sure that is not what happens, but I would love some reassurance on that.)

Comment #75: purpleshoes  on  01/05  at  08:22 PM

Hector B, precisely. There’s a reason my cohabiting partner is also (well, about to be) legally my subleaser. There are lots of risks worth taking in life, and after recent world events, real estate just doesn’t feel like one of them.

Comment #76: purpleshoes  on  01/05  at  08:33 PM

purpleshoes,

I’m actually doing mostly joint finances and I don’t have children but I find your question really strange.  I imagine these hypothetical couples do like countless others and open an account for joint expenses like child’s expenses and pay for schoolbooks from that.

Comment #77: Victoria  on  01/05  at  08:36 PM

what all these couples with carefully-delineated separate checking accounts do if they have children

For my friends who divided their finances into Yours, Mine, and Ours, their son’s expenses came out of the common account, same as the mortgage.

Comment #78: Hector B.  on  01/05  at  08:37 PM

Victoria, my question is prompted 1) by an unfortunately acquaintanceship with a couple who wrote separate checks for everything, except that she had less income and was the one who cared about cooking, so all the groceries came out of her income and all of his went into his personal savings 2) by a general concern that historically in our culture, women do most of the caretaking for children and have a clearer sense of the household expenses pertaining to children. I am sure you can find ample evidence that shopping is female labor in our culture on this blog, for instance. Just because a couple has separate finances or contains explicit feminists doesn’t mean that this labor won’t continue to fall on women. So I have this uncomfortable mental image of the parent doing the childcare-related shopping having to make requests that the other person give them money to parent with, much like many women in the 50s had to do for household expenses.

This hypothesis bothers me.

Comment #79: purpleshoes  on  01/05  at  08:45 PM

That’s not an unreasonable concern but I think has little to do with the practicality of having separate checking accounts and I don’t see how one contributes to the other.  In fact I think that a couple that have carefully separate finances is much more likely to be aware that only one person is paying for groceries.  I am completely baffled by why your acquaintance tolerated paying for groceries?  That is explicitly not splitting things 50/50.  I’m sorry to say but she sounds either irrational or irrationally in love.  Also as far as I know most couples that have these sorts of arrangements pool resources in a joint account in proportional ways depending on income and not 50/50. 

Obviously these arrangements won’t work and aren’t carried out when one party is staying home with the kids even part time.

Comment #80: Victoria  on  01/05  at  08:52 PM

“So I have this uncomfortable mental image of the parent doing the childcare-related shopping having to make requests that the other person give them money to parent with, much like many women in the 50s had to do for household expenses.”

...you could apply that discomfort to anything about the house, though.  Do you have an uncomfortable mental image of the female partner having to make requests that the other person give them money to pay the electric bill?  I mean, you have a joint account, everything joint comes out of the joint account, and either the partner not doing the child-purchase-making or grocery-shopping puts their half in or decides to be a giant douchebag and then gets to put in their half of the overdraft fee.  This isn’t really a super-difficult concept, especially since there’s not really an easy way to weasel out of an obligation to pay for half of your own child’s expenses the way there might be if, say, your partner is a gourmet chef who only wants to eat organic, locally-grown foods and you (claim that you) would be content with ramen every night if they weren’t doing that.

Comment #81: preying mantis  on  01/05  at  09:38 PM

A marriage license is a way of pushing off all the disagreements until later.  I think that’s fine.

Personally, I think home purchases are way too complex.  Honestly, I’ve had to sign or initial a hundred and fifty pages, some duplicates, to prove that I’ve read them.  I doubt it proves anything, as most people don’t read them!

Alas.

Anyhow, you buy and sell when the getting is good.  Which may or may not be when your relationship is ready or not ready.  I’ve been working on my spouse to buy a house for ten years!  We’re about to close on a little cabin…

Comment #82: Crissa  on  01/05  at  10:21 PM

preying mantis, I mean, fair enough, presuming good communication and a general resistance to dividing the household into gendered spheres. I come from a family where the finances is frankly women’s work- on the grounds that women shop and women cook and women pay the bills on time - so I find it really hard to get my head around this, given that the men in my family tend to express the same baffled indifference to how much the mortgage payment is as your stereotypical sitcom male expresses towards “wash cold, delicate cycle”. I am not claiming a uterus gives one the ability to budget; I’m just saying that most persistent household costs are to me the kinds of things that women end up doing, and having to ask the person benefiting to pay you back is just hitting me weird.

In response to your other statement, all kinds of terrible people try to weasel out of paying for their child’s expenses, in all kinds of scurrilous ways. I don’t think having separate accounts or joint accounts is any protection against that particular brand of assholery, though separate accounts could make the “likely to steal all your money and move to Cancun” kind less common, and joint accounts could make the “spends all “his” money on D&D;collectibles, none left for children” kind less common.

Victoria, neither of them were very happy people or very good communicators. We stopped working together and I stopped hearing all about this. I’ve actually always been a fan, personally, of denoting a certain amount of money that will go into the stay-at-home parent’s long term savings out of the family budget, since staying at home is one of the quickest ways to insure that you’re screwed over completely if your relationship breaks up, and having some cushion only seems fair.

Comment #83: purpleshoes  on  01/05  at  11:19 PM

p.s. I’m also not saying that male baffled indifference is either generally forgivable or a good situation - just that my personal experience involves the non-shopping, non-cooking partner being so utterly clueless about money and budgets that I really do think separate would have ended with one partner owning a pony and the other trying to feed the family entirely out of cans. Our personal experiences of gendered labor differences color our reactions to attempts to reform them?

Comment #84: purpleshoes  on  01/05  at  11:26 PM

I own a house with a friend. The house is also my (and her) home. When we decided to buy we had been living together for about 5 years (as housemates renting together). We’ve now been in our house for a further 10 years (our ‘relationship’ has lasted longer than many marriages). There were a number of reasons we decided to buy together (pooling resources enabled us to buy a ‘better’ house, we were both single at the time and there weren’t any partnering prospects on the horizon, we already knew we could happily live together).

Before we entered into it we talked about how we would divide mortgage payments (50:50), who would pay the deposit (me because I had it saved up), how long we would commit to the deal (at least 5 years no matter if one or the other moves out) and how we would divide ownership (proportionally, i.e. whoever puts in more financially gets that proportion back). We also agreed to share the upkeep and renovation expenses equally (which we have done). Ten years on we are both still happily living together. We have both had partners over the years but never felt the need to move out as we both like the house and the area we live in.

Nothing about this arrangement was difficult. In fact I would argue that it is less difficult doing this with a friend (particularly one whose tastes are similar, or complementary, to your own) precisely because there are no romantic assumptions and things can be discussed without touching on the thorny issue of ‘committment’.

We also jointly own a dog and if our household ever breaks up I imagine that discussing her future will be a lot harder than working out what to do with the house.

Comment #85: JC  on  01/05  at  11:42 PM

Buying the house together was a commitment. Deciding to reproduce, ditto. Getting that piece of paper from the slightly-sozzled JP, not so much. I think the patriarchal assumptions that kick in when people get married obscure the commitment involved in sharing ownership of real estate (because everybody just assumes that it “really” beongs to and is paid for by the husband).

And the whole “that will be taken care of in the divorce” sounds like a doctor tellng you not to worry about that wart on your thumb because it will go away when you get your hand amputated…

Comment #86: paul  on  01/06  at  12:29 AM

“In response to your other statement, all kinds of terrible people try to weasel out of paying for their child’s expenses, in all kinds of scurrilous ways.”

Well yes, otherwise the state department wouldn’t have to threaten to deny passports to people on the child-support deadbeats list and states wouldn’t have to garnish people’s wages to get them to help pay for the upkeep of their own children.  But the assholery is pretty obvious, blatant, and difficult to label anything else when someone is arguing that they shouldn’t have to pay for half of a new pair of sneakers for their own kid because they would have just outfitted the child in flipflops and called it a day.  It’s not really the sort of thing that works out well in a relationship that’s even somewhat healthy.

“separate accounts could make the “likely to steal all your money and move to Cancun” kind less common, and joint accounts could make the “spends all “his” money on D&D;collectibles, none left for children” kind less common.”

Separate accounts, at the very least, makes “steal all your money and move to Cancun” actual theft.  Most places do not treat one partner draining a normal (non-custodial) joint account and doing whatever the hell they want with the money as such.

Joint accounts make it difficult for household expenses to fade into the woodwork of one or the other’s personal expenses, and, if you’re paying things like the mortgage or car payments out of them, make it difficult in the event of a divorce for whoever was paying for some big and valuable thing to unjustly lay claim a bigger share and leave the other party scrambling to demonstrate an equal contribution in the form of handling dozens of much smaller expenses.  Not a big thing if you live in a state with generous community-property interpretations, but it can be a big help if you’re somewhere a misleading paper trail could bite you in the ass.

Fortunately, it’s not like you have to pick one or the other and that’s it.  Lots of people have their own personal accounts and then a joint account for joint expenses.  There’s no one-size-fits-all solution, obviously—if you have a partner who’s exploitative, passive-aggressive, or exceptionally compulsive when it comes to money, special precautions are going to need to be taken—but the blended model seems like it would work best for most people.

Comment #87: preying mantis  on  01/06  at  10:24 AM

You know, after years and years and years of hearing THAT particular metaphor spewed, have NONE of the people who keep using it ever considered that maybe we don’t want to be owned?

But what if the cow WANTS to be milked?

Or as my girlfriend points out whenever this trope is brought up “How about the fact I’m NOT a DAMN cow!” Consent and desire being the important elements here.

“Why buy the pig when all you want is a little sausage?”

I love this! If, for no other reason, than to see people get offended! It is so obviously a near-perfect parallel that the sexism would be really apparent.

Comment #88: Vir Modestus  on  01/06  at  01:35 PM
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